Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12566

 1                          Tuesday, 30 November 2004

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please

 6    call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Case

 8    IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10            Can we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your

12    Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom.  For the

13    Prosecution, Stefan Waespi and Daryl Mundis.  We are assisted today by our

14    intern Lisa Hartog and our case manager Andres Vatter.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances for

16    the Defence?

17            Mr. Registrar, what are we going to do about this noise?

18            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.  Good

19    morning, Your Honours.  On behalf of Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina

20    Residovic, lead counsel, Stefane Bourgon, co-counsel, and Muriel Cauvin,

21    legal assistant.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23            The other Defence team?

24            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  On

25    behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

Page 12567

 1    Mulalic, legal assistant.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber bids good morning to

 3    everyone, but I'm afraid we can't go on like this.

 4                          [Technical difficulty]

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems to be working now.  The

 6    Chamber bids good morning to all those present.  I didn't have time to say

 7    this because we were having technical difficulties.  Good morning to the

 8    Prosecution, counsel, and the accused, as well as all the personnel of

 9    this courtroom, without forgetting the interpreters who are behind the

10    walls.

11            In view of the fact that we had this problem, I would like to ask

12    the registrar that we go into private session.

13            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in private session,

14    Mr. President.

15                          [Private session]

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19                          [Open session]

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to the

21    Defence counsel now.

22            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before I start

23    examining the witness, I think it would be customary to give the witness a

24    sheet of paper on which he will note down his name, family name, and his

25    initials HB.  This document will later be sealed.  This is in order to

Page 12580

 1    know the identity of the witness.

 2            THE WITNESS: [Marks].

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  The Trial Chamber

 4    will have a look at the document.  Could you also write down the date.

 5    It's the 30th of November, 2004.

 6            THE WITNESS: [Marks].

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Show the date to the Defence,

 8    and to Mr. Mundis, too.

 9            Mr. Registrar, could we have a number for this document.

10            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The number will be DH349, under

11    seal.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may proceed,

13    Defence.

14            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15                          Examined by Ms. Residovic:

16       Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness HB.

17       A.   Good morning.

18            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into

19    private session again as I want to ask the witness some questions that

20    relate to his identity.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We'll go into

22    private session.

23                          [Private session]

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16                          [Open session]

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We can't see the

18    little logo anymore, so we are in open session.

19            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Mr. HB, tell me, where were you when the JNA and the Serbian army

21    attacked Bosnia-Herzegovina in April 1992?

22       A.   I was at home, in Banja Luka.

23       Q.   Did you ever leave Banja Luka, and under what conditions?

24       A.   Yes.  I left Banja Luka around October 1992.  I was in the prison

25    in Banja Luka before that.  The authorities at the time in Banja Luka had

Page 12582

 1    imprisoned me because allegedly I didn't have a permit to move around

 2    freely.  And so I spent some time in the prison in the former police

 3    station in Banja Luka, and then in the Kozara barracks.  Finally I went to

 4    Rakovacka Bara.  That was a collection centre where they sent people to

 5    the army.  Some captain released me there and gave me 24 hours to leave

 6    Banja Luka.

 7       Q.   Mr. HB, did you leave Banja Luka within 24 hours?  If not, why

 8    not?  Or rather, did you leave Banja Luka at all?

 9       A.   No.  I didn't leave Banja Luka within 24 hours because it was

10    impossible to do so.  I had problems with my health, as I had been beaten

11    up.  I was bleeding.  And it was necessary to obtain a lot of permits.

12    But I left Banja Luka three or four days later.

13       Q.   Where did you go after that?

14       A.   I left Banja Luka by bus.  I went to Zagreb.

15       Q.   Did you stay in Zagreb, and if so, where?

16       A.   When I arrived in Zagreb, the authorities that were receiving

17    refugees in Croatia received me.  As they saw that I had problems with my

18    health, they placed me in the hospital where there were wounded Bosnians

19    from the war.  It was in the building of the tobacco factory Sarajevo.

20    But I'm not sure of that.

21       Q.   In response to a question already put to you, Mr. HB, you said

22    that sometime in October you went to Bosnia again.  Who did you go to

23    Bosnia with, and where did you go?

24       A.   I told the people in the hospital that I wanted to go to Bosnia

25    because I considered myself a patriot.  And there was an organised convoy

Page 12583












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Page 12584

 1    consisting of a number of buses that was going there.  I was put on a bus

 2    together with combatants, HVO combatants from Doboj, from the Kotorsko

 3    village.  I was in the bus with them.  I didn't know where I was going.

 4       Q.   Mr. HB, did you arrive in Zenica, and did you stay on in Zenica?

 5       A.   Yes, I arrived in Zenica.  The buses arrived there.  We stayed in

 6    Zenica for one day.  The soldiers were part of the Doboj corps, and they

 7    were going to Tesanj to find accommodation there.  They asked me to go

 8    with them.

 9       Q.   Did you accept their invitation?  Who did you join?  And how long

10    did you stay there?

11       A.   Yes, I accepted an invitation.  Because I had arrived in Bosnia, I

12    didn't know anyone.  I got to know them on that trip to a certain extent.

13    I went to Tesanj with them and became a member of the 203rd Brigade.

14       Q.   How long were you a member of the brigade?  Did you leave it, and

15    if so, why?

16       A.   Well, I was a member of the brigade up until about mid-January

17    1993.  Then there was some sort of an announcement, according to which all

18    the people from Krajina were to gather in Travnik and organise themselves

19    to form a Krajina or Banja Luka Brigade.  I received permission from the

20    commander to leave, and I said I wanted to join up.  I reported.

21       Q.   Did you arrive in Travnik, and when, if you did?

22       A.   Well, as I said, I arrived in Travnik in mid-January, but when I

23    arrived there, this so-called Banja Luka Brigade, well, it came to

24    nothing.  There weren't enough men.  So the Territorial Defence sent me to

25    Mehurici, where this brigade should have organised itself, since there was

Page 12585

 1    a unit in Mehurici at the time, near Banja Luka, Siprage, Kotor Vares.

 2       Q.   Did you then go to Mehurici?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And did you find that unit there, which was mainly composed of men

 5    from Krajina?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.  And that's where I joined them.

 7       Q.   Which brigade was that unit from Mehurici a part of?

 8       A.   That unit was part of the 306th Brigade; it was the 1st Battalion

 9    of the 306th Brigade.

10       Q.   And where were the headquarters of the 1st Battalion of the 306th

11    Brigade when you first arrived in Mehurici?

12       A.   In Mehurici.  That's where the headquarters of the 1st Battalion

13    were located.

14       Q.   Where were the soldiers and the command billeted?  Do you remember

15    which building you were billeted in?

16       A.   Naturally.  I spent a lot of time there.  It was the only primary

17    school in Mehurici.  That's where the command was and that's where the

18    unit was, at least the units that had arrived from Kotor Vares, Siprage,

19    Mrkovici.  It was fairly mixed.  The compensation of the unit was fairly

20    mixed.

21       Q.   At the time were you assigned any duties, and if so, what kind of

22    duties were you assigned?

23       A.   Yes.  After a certain period of time, I became the commander of

24    the military police within that unit.

25       Q.   Who was your immediate superior in the 1st Battalion of the 306th

Page 12586

 1    Brigade?

 2       A.   My immediate superior was the chief of security.  His name was

 3    Hasan Zukanovic.

 4       Q.   Mr. HB, how many of you were there in the military police unit at

 5    the very beginning?

 6       A.   Well, at the very beginning, there were between eight and ten of

 7    us.  But sometimes when we had a lot of work to carry out, older

 8    combatants from units from Siprage and Kotor Vares, et cetera, would come

 9    to assist us.

10       Q.   When you say that older -- when you refer to older combatants, are

11    you referring to their age, and if so, how old were these men who, in

12    certain situations, joined your military police unit?

13       A.   Yes, I'm referring to their age.  On the whole, these men were

14    about 50 years old, or over 50.

15       Q.   What sort of tasks did your military police unit have?

16       A.   Well, its main tasks were as follows:  We had to investigate

17    errors made by combatants; we had to guard the command; and we had to

18    carry out investigations if, for example, men left the lines, abandoned

19    their positions, sold weapons.  In some cases, they would even steal the

20    livestock that belonged to the inhabitants.

21            Is it all right now?

22       Q.   Mr. HB, what sort of measures were taken against soldiers who

23    violated the rules, or rather, who behaved in the manner that you have

24    just described?

25       A.   Well, if we discovered that someone had violated the rules, we

Page 12587

 1    would take, on the whole, disciplinary measures.  At the time we could

 2    only take disciplinary measures.

 3       Q.   If you found out that a crime had been committed, what sort of

 4    authority did the police, or rather, the security organ have?  What should

 5    you have done in such cases?

 6       A.   Well, if someone had committed a crime, then we would send a

 7    record of the event to the command, to the CSB and the brigade command.

 8    And they would then take further action.

 9       Q.   Against whom could you take measures, or rather, who did you

10    investigate?  Over whom did your military police have authority?

11       A.   Well, the military police was responsible only for army members.

12    We would only carry out investigations into army members.

13       Q.   Mr. HB, if certain offences were committed at the time by

14    individuals who were not army members, in such cases, who would

15    investigate these offences?

16       A.   Well, the civilian police would conduct the investigations into

17    such cases.

18       Q.   Do you know whether at the time, in Mehurici, the civilian police

19    was present, and do you know how many men it had?

20       A.   Yes.  I know the military police was near the school, and there

21    were some professional policemen.  I think they were policemen before the

22    war, too.  And they had some men from the so-called reserve police force

23    who worked with them.  We were on good terms.  We even cooperated.

24       Q.   Mr. HB, when you arrived in the school in mid-January 1993, as you

25    said, were there any other individuals staying in the school who were not

Page 12588

 1    members of your battalion?

 2       A.   No.  When I arrived there, when I arrived in the school in

 3    Mehurici, there were only members of the 306th Brigade staying there.  On

 4    the whole, they were from Kotor Vares and Siprage, Mrkonjic Grad; there

 5    were a few men from Jajce, and so on.  This is where the police were --

 6    this is where the men were accommodated.

 7       Q.   When you arrived in Mehurici, and while staying in Mehurici, did

 8    you notice the presence of foreigners in Mehurici, specially foreigners

 9    from Afro-Asian countries?

10       A.   Yes.  I would see them every day.  They would pass by in cars.  I

11    would see them; they were present there.

12       Q.   Do you know who these people were?  Do you know where they had

13    come from?  And what do you call them at the time?

14       A.   Well, I don't know, they looked like Arabs.  It seems as if they

15    were from Arab countries.  They spoke a different language.  The people

16    called them Mujahedin, and I think that was an appropriate name for them.

17       Q.   When you arrived in Mehurici, where were they staying?

18       A.   They were staying on a hill above Mehurici, about 200 to 300

19    metres away.  On a hill, there's a place there where they had some sort of

20    a camp up there, but I never went there.

21       Q.   Was that place, where they set up that camp, was that place

22    secured?

23       A.   Yes.  There was some sort of a wire fence.  There were some sort

24    of guards up there, too.  And it was only later, when there was an

25    incident of some kind, that I noticed that there was some kind of a hedge

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Page 12590

 1    around the camp.

 2       Q.   Mr. HB, was it possible to gain free access to the camp, or

 3    rather, do you know whether men from your battalion and brigade had access

 4    to that camp?

 5       A.   Well, no, I don't think that there were any of us who knew what

 6    was happening in the camp, nor did any of us ever approach the camp.

 7       Q.   While you were in the 1st Battalion of the 306th, do you know

 8    whether these foreigners, these Mujahedin, trained men from your

 9    battalion?

10       A.   No.

11       Q.   Did they provide you with logistic support?  Did they provide you

12    with food, weapons, et cetera?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Tell me, did you notice that these foreigners were establishing

15    relations with some of the population in Mehurici and its surroundings,

16    and were there any Bosnians who joined these Mujahedin and stayed in the

17    camp with them or cooperated with them in some other way?

18       A.   Well, yes, there were such people.  The situation in the village

19    was divided, because there were members of that unit who were from the

20    village.  And let me explain something.  There was a mosque where the

21    Mujahedin organised prayers or something like that.  I don't know what

22    they're called, but they organised an event.  They had children going to

23    the mosque, and they would instruct the children there.  And I heard this,

24    and I was also present on such an occasion.  I heard that some of the

25    older Mujahedin would marry young girls, 13- or 14-year-old girls.

Page 12591

 1       Q.   Mr. HB, thank you.  I would like to talk about the event that you

 2    referred to when answering one of my questions.  Where were you at the

 3    beginning of June 1993?

 4       A.   At the beginning of June, I was in Mehurici.

 5       Q.   Could you tell us whether you know what the situation was like in

 6    the Bila valley and in your brigade at the time?  Were there any problems

 7    as far as relations with the HVO are concerned?

 8       A.   Well, at that time, perhaps at the end of May, the relations

 9    between the BH army and the HVO were very tense.  I don't know the exact

10    dates, but I can remember certain events.  Our villages and the

11    surroundings had been encircled.  And on several occasions we received

12    requests for assistance.  We received requests to assist a village that

13    had been attacked.  I think the name of the village was Bukovica.  I can't

14    remember the name of these places very well now, but I think the name of

15    the village was Bukovica.

16            They asked for assistance, but our unit had been broken up.  There

17    weren't enough men.  Some men couldn't return because the roads had been

18    closed; there were blockades.  And at that point in time, we couldn't

19    provide any assistance.  And the brigade command was also dispersed.  It

20    was in two or three places.

21            So the situation was a bit chaotic, and it wasn't possible to

22    organise ourselves in the way we should have been organised.

23       Q.   Mr. HB, nevertheless, at some point in time, did fighting break

24    out, and could you tell us where you were on the 8th of June, 1993?

25       A.   Well, I really don't know whether this happened on the 8th of

Page 12592

 1    June, but fighting did break out.  We weren't able to help Bukovica

 2    because we believed that there were a lot of HVO troops up there.  And I

 3    think that the command issued an order or decided to break through in the

 4    direction of Maline and Guca Gora.  And it was then decided to carry out

 5    this breakthrough.

 6       Q.   Mr. HB, did you set off to carry out this breakthrough with the

 7    units in the morning, and if not, where were you?

 8       A.   No, I didn't participant in this attempt to penetrate the lines.

 9    The command gave me a task as a member of the military police.  They said

10    that if they were to managed to penetrate the lines, the military police

11    was to protect the civilians and the civilian population to try to

12    establish some sort of order in the villages that we took or liberated.

13       Q.   Did you receive an assignment at some point in time to leave

14    Mehurici, and where were you told to go?

15       A.   Yes.  I was told to go to Maline, because we had already heard

16    that our troops had broken through the defence lines, that they had

17    entered, and they had to go towards Guca Gora.  So our assignment was to

18    assist in the evacuation, or to assist the civilians who were there.

19       Q.   Can you remember, Mr. HB, when, roughly, this took place?

20       A.   We got there while the fighting was still continuing, but I know

21    that it was about 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning when we reached the

22    village.

23       Q.   And who did you find in the village once you arrived?

24       A.   When we arrived in the village, about midway, we came across our

25    soldiers.  There was still some shooting, but in the center, in the middle

Page 12593

 1    of the village, we found quite a large group of people who had gathered,

 2    as well as several members of the HVO who had surrendered.  They were

 3    simply waiting there, and the troops were waiting for the police to arrive

 4    to deal with them.

 5       Q.   How many of you military policemen arrived at the village at the

 6    time?

 7       A.   About 10 of us, because many others who were our members had left.

 8    We were short of men so that there were about 10 of us.

 9       Q.   Tell me, Mr. HB, what did you do when you saw this group of

10    villagers and members of the HVO who had surrendered and who were standing

11    in the center of the village?

12       A.   There were many civilians - women, children, old people - as well

13    as a number of HVO members who had surrendered.  The people were scared;

14    they didn't know what to do, and they were afraid of something.  It was

15    difficult to explain and to make a decision in such a situation.  People

16    were coming out of their houses.  There was even a woman who was wounded,

17    and there were people who could not be moved.

18       Q.   Did anyone make a suggestion, who was it, and how did these people

19    organise?

20       A.   As it was hard to explain things, because there was shooting, the

21    people were crying, the women were crying, they didn't know what to do,

22    they didn't dare stay in their homes, and I suggested that I take them all

23    because I thought I could put them up in the school in Mehurici where they

24    would be protected.  And then the police would make sure that their

25    property was intact and that nobody looted it.

Page 12594

 1       Q.   These people who had gathered in the center of the village, how

 2    did they react to your proposal?

 3       A.   There were different reactions.  Some were in favour of going to

 4    Mehurici; others were against it.  They didn't want to leave behind their

 5    homes, their property, their sick members.  Some of them were bedridden;

 6    some were elderly, that couldn't walk.  So the solution we found was to

 7    try and assist the older people and transport them to Mehurici by truck,

 8    including a wounded woman who was pregnant, she was transported by truck,

 9    whereas the others were to go on foot to Mehurici.

10       Q.   How far is Mehurici from Maline?

11       A.   I really don't know.  I can't be precise, especially after so much

12    time.  But if you took the road and you went by car, I think it would be

13    about 13 or 14 kilometres.  But if we used the path that we took, it was

14    about 5 or 6 kilometres; that would be my rough estimate.

15       Q.   Was the length of the route the only reason why you decided to

16    take a shortcut instead of the road?

17       A.   No.  The length of the road was one reason, because it's difficult

18    to walk such a distance.  However, there was fighting still going on in

19    the valley.  We didn't know who we could come across.  There were very few

20    of us escorting them.  And the lines that our troops had broken through

21    and that had been held by the HVO around the village were mined, so that

22    the route we took to Mehurici was, in my view, the simplest for all of us

23    to reach Mehurici.

24       Q.   In view of the fact that you took a shortcut, tell me, how did

25    those people move?  What was the formation?

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Page 12596

 1       A.   Well, it was a column.  People went freely, three or four in a

 2    row.  I'm not quite sure, but I think that there were three boxes of hand

 3    grenades that we had found in the village, and the HVO members who had

 4    surrendered, the prisoners of war, were carrying those boxes, two each.

 5    Otherwise, the women, children, and the elderly moved in rows of three or

 6    four.

 7       Q.   Tell me, how many of you policemen went with those people to

 8    Mehurici?

 9       A.   I think, apart from me, there was another five policemen.  I left

10    the rest of them down there to take care of the houses and the property,

11    to look after it.

12       Q.   Can you remember, Mr. HB, when it was that you set out towards

13    Mehurici from Maline?

14       A.   This could have been about 2.00 or 2.30 or 3.00 in the afternoon.

15    I don't know exactly.

16       Q.   You told me how those people were moving, but could you give an

17    estimate, how many locals there were in addition to the HVO members?

18       A.   In my estimate, about 200 of them.

19       Q.   Mr. HB, did you reach Mehurici without any problems?

20       A.   No, we didn't.  As we were moving along this path with the column,

21    we were chatting.  I would call it a friendly column.  We were talking

22    about why all this had happened, that it was a fine country before the

23    war; was it the politicians who were to blame for all this.  And, I don't

24    know, it may have been about a kilometre before we reached Mehurici, from

25    a thicket, two masked men jumped out.  They demanded that I stop, and they

Page 12597

 1    said that they would take over the column.  I told them that that was not

 2    possible, that we were members of the army and that we were taking the

 3    column to Mehurici, to the school there, where I thought they would

 4    probably be exchanged for some of our people held by the HVO, and that

 5    this would probably be resolved by the Red Cross.  No, they demanded that

 6    they take them over straight away.

 7       Q.   Mr. HB, apart from those two men, during this conversation, did

 8    you notice anyone else arriving?

 9       A.   Maybe five or six metres behind these two men were three

10    Mujahedin.  But later, when we were really quarrelling quite loudly, they

11    cocked their guns and so I did the same.  I don't know whether I was brave

12    or a fool, I don't know, I really don't know.  I thought that somehow we

13    would resolve it.

14            Then, from the wood, quite a number of men jumped out with their

15    weapons pointed at us.  All of them had some kind of hoods over their

16    faces.  And they said that they would kill us all.  Whether we give them

17    those people or not, they would kill us all.

18       Q.   You said that they cocked their guns.  How did they do that with

19    respect to you?

20       A.   When these others had jumped out, this tall man, who demanded I

21    surrender the people, he put his automatic rifle into my mouth and told me

22    to drop my weapon.  When I turned my head around, I saw that the others

23    were pointing their guns at everyone, and one of them was pointing his gun

24    at my brother, who was also a member of the police.

25       Q.   After this reaction on the part of the Mujahedin and the masked

Page 12598

 1    men, did you have any chance of resisting or surviving?

 2       A.   No, I didn't.

 3       Q.   What happened next?

 4       A.   I dropped my gun.  And the people to the side, I couldn't really

 5    see everybody, but they took those people who were carrying the boxes.  I

 6    don't know how many people they took.  Maybe 15, maybe even 20, I don't

 7    know.  But this was very brief.  They just ran into the column, seized

 8    some men, and then they went off and let us pass.  Everyone was terrified.

 9    I was scared and furious.  And I ordered that we run as we were passing by

10    the camp, and all of us ran to reach Mehurici.

11       Q.   When you reached Mehurici, where did you go with those people you

12    had escorted to Mehurici?

13       A.   We first entered the school yard, and then from the yard, in a

14    column, through the corridor, they all went to the sports hall of the

15    elementary school in Mehurici.

16       Q.   Let's retrace our steps a little.  When you said that they had

17    put -- that one of the men had put his rifle into your mouth, were you

18    hurt?

19       A.   I was, but not very seriously.  They just cut my lip from the

20    barrel of the gun, so I bled a little.  But it's not really worth

21    mentioning.

22       Q.   Let us go back again to the time when you left Maline.  You said

23    that at first, there were some people who were saying they wanted to go

24    and others who found it hard to leave their homes.  At the end, when you

25    moved out, did everyone agree to move, or did you force some people to

Page 12599

 1    move with you?

 2       A.   No.  All those who left, left by agreement, because many who

 3    didn't want to leave just then, their main reason was that they had

 4    somebody old or sick in the family whom they would have to leave.  And

 5    when we managed to get hold of a truck going to Mehurici, I think five or

 6    six old people were evacuated by truck, and a pregnant woman, who was also

 7    wounded, she was also evacuated to Mehurici.  And that was when the rest

 8    of the people all moved out with us.

 9       Q.   You told us that you reached Maline around 9.00 or 10.00, that you

10    were informed at 9.00 so you got there at about 10, and that you left

11    sometime in the afternoon; you're not sure whether it was 1.00 or 2.00.

12    What happened in the meantime in Maline itself?  Did you spend all that

13    time in discussion, or were there any other activities by the military

14    police, preparing the population to move out?

15       A.   This is not a small village.  It is quite a large village.  And

16    having 10 men in the police, it's hard to tell who one could come across.

17    There were soldiers.  People were mixed.  There was shooting on all sides.

18    And we took care, if we came across a wounded man or somebody, we feared

19    for our own lives, but we assisted.  If there were wounded and sick, we

20    tried to prevent any looting or any inappropriate treatment of the

21    civilians.

22       Q.   While you were in Maline, did you come across a lady doctor and

23    some wounded people, or had they already left Maline?

24       A.   When I reached Maline, I didn't find them there.  But this lady

25    doctor is someone I met later at the school in Mehurici.

Page 12600

 1       Q.   When the first two jumped in front of you behind whom there were

 2    three Mujahedin, as you explained, these people who spoke to you, were

 3    they speaking in their own name or on behalf of the Mujahedin who were

 4    with them?

 5       A.   They were speaking in the plural, and I quote:  "We will now take

 6    over the care of these people."  So this means in the plural, "we."  And

 7    these two men, this tall one who put his gun in my mouth, he spoke Bosnian

 8    or Serbo-Croatian, our language anyway.

 9       Q.   While you were gathering the population in Maline, did you notice

10    that the houses had been destroyed, or did you see anyone setting fire to

11    those houses?

12       A.   No.  While we were there, no one did that.  There were some houses

13    that had been hit, in the operations perhaps, but there was no torching by

14    soldiers.  There was only a few houses from which smoke was coming, but

15    nothing more than that.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's half past 10.00.  We're

17    going to have our technical break, and we will resume work around five to

18    11.00.

19                          --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

20                          --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to the

22    Defence now.

23            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24       Q.   Mr. HB, before the break, you said that the population from Maline

25    was placed in the primary school, you placed them in the primary school.

Page 12601












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Page 12602

 1    Did you provide them with anything to enable them to have accommodation in

 2    that sports hall in the primary school?

 3       A.   Well, when we arrived in the school, there were some mattresses --

 4    some mats, rather, that were in the school, and from the place in which --

 5    in the place where I slept, and other policemen, we had some mats and some

 6    blankets which we provided them with.

 7       Q.   Did anyone make a list of the people who had arrived then who were

 8    placed in the sports hall, and if so, what did you do with that list?

 9       A.   Yes.  I personally made a list of all the people who were there,

10    and I provided the command with this list.

11       Q.   Mr. HB, tell me, after their arrival, did anyone come to see these

12    people immediately, and if so, who came to see them?  And were any

13    measures taken to provide these citizens with care?

14       A.   Well, yes.  In the evening, Dr. Ribic came; I think that was his

15    name, or perhaps it was his nickname.  He spoke to the lady doctor who was

16    there, for the most part.  I don't know what her name was.  But he offered

17    all the help he could offer, all the help they needed.

18       Q.   You said that there were women, children, and elderly people.  Did

19    anyone try to provide these people with food?

20       A.   Yes, but I don't know in what way.  That evening, as night was

21    falling, I don't know whether the inhabitants noticed them as we were

22    passing through the village, or whether this was organised by someone from

23    the civilian protection, but the inhabitants would bring what they had.

24    Some of them would bring some pie; some of them would bring some cheese,

25    et cetera.  They provided them with some food.  And the people who were in

Page 12603

 1    the school, the Croats, they had all brought some food with them.  They

 2    had some food of their own with them.

 3       Q.   When these people were brought to the primary school, did you

 4    inform anyone about what had happened on your way to Mehurici?

 5       A.   That very same night, my superior, the chief of security, well, he

 6    wasn't there, and none of the members of the command were there.  They

 7    were at the forward command post.  There was ongoing fighting.  And it was

 8    only at dusk, when they had returned, that I provided the commander with a

 9    report.  I think his name was Mrsa, but there was someone else called

10    Fazlic there.  I don't know what Mrsa's family name is.

11       Q.   Did you tell those people that Mujahedin and masked men had

12    intercepted you and had taken some of the people from the column?

13       A.   Well, I wasn't able to tell them anything at the time because I

14    really was concerned with the fighting, et cetera, and I was waiting for

15    my superior to arrive.  And he did, in fact, arrive two days after the

16    incident.  I told him about everything in great detail, and I provided him

17    with a report.  This is what all the policemen in that group also did.  He

18    was provided a report on everything that had happened.

19       Q.   As far as I can remember, on the basis of what you had said, your

20    superior's name was Zukanovic.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Did he carried out a detailed investigation, and did you provide

23    written reports -- did you all provide written reports on what had

24    happened?

25       A.   Yes.  There was an investigation.  We all gave written statements,

Page 12604

 1    which we left with him.

 2       Q.   As someone who was responsible for taking the people there in

 3    safety, in a secure manner, how did you feel, given what had happened?

 4       A.   How did I feel?  Well, it was difficult for me.  I kept wondering

 5    whether I was responsible for everything that had happened, and I kept

 6    asking myself what the purpose of war was, what was the purpose of that

 7    war, since we Bosnians had no rights in our own country.

 8       Q.   Mr. HB, on that day, on the first day, did you know anything about

 9    what had happened to those people, apart from the fact that they had been

10    taken from the column?

11       A.   No, I knew nothing about them.  But on the following day, I went

12    to replace the policeman who had stayed over in Maline that night.  And

13    when we returned to Mehurici, I found out that a group of our soldiers had

14    brought a wounded HVO member, and he was also placed in the hall in

15    Mehurici.  I entered the hall because I wanted to see how badly he was

16    wounded, I wanted to see why he had been wounded, and I wanted to register

17    him.  I think his name was Zeljko.  And I recognised one of the men from

18    the group taken away by the Mujahedin.

19       Q.   Did you speak to him, Mr. HB?

20       A.   Yes.  I approached him.  He was afraid.  I don't know whether you

21    can hear me.

22       Q.   Yes.

23       A.   He was afraid.  The doctor who was dressing his wounds was there

24    at that time.  I asked him about what had happened, and he said that he

25    managed to survive the execution.  And I said, because at the time

Page 12605

 1    everyone would turn up, the Red Cross was supposed to turn up too, but at

 2    the time I didn't trust anyone.  And I told him that it would be better

 3    for him to remain silent while he was there.  That it would be better for

 4    him not to speak about that to anyone, not to tell anyone that he had

 5    survived the execution.  I told him that once he was exchanged, he could

 6    then open up and say whatever he wanted.

 7       Q.   Mr. HB, since this is what you suggested to the wounded man you

 8    saw, the man who told you how he had been wounded, could you tell me why

 9    you made this suggestion?  Was it because of your meeting with the

10    Mujahedin, or was there some other reason for which you felt that

11    something might happen if it was discovered that he was there?

12       A.   Well, after that meeting, that close encounter, as I call it, with

13    the Mujahedin, there was fighting.  If there had been a full unit from the

14    army in the school, perhaps I wouldn't have made such a suggestion.  But

15    since the unit was engaged in combat and there were only a few of us there

16    in the school, if they had descended and come down from the hill -- well,

17    this is what was on my mind at the time, perhaps my assessment was

18    erroneous, but at the time I believed that it was best that that be kept

19    secret, and I thought it would be best for them not to speak about what

20    had happened until they were exchanged.  To this very day, I'm not sure

21    whether I was right or not in making this suggestion.  But if the

22    Mujahedin had found out about what the situation was, all of them would

23    have probably been killed.

24       Q.   Mr. HB, you said that a doctor came and provided them with the

25    treatment that could be provided at the time.  Could you tell me what sort

Page 12606

 1    of sanitary conditions were provided for these people from the very first

 2    day?

 3       A.   Well, the sanitary conditions, it was a village school, and there

 4    was -- there were two toilets down by the hall, down by the sports hall,

 5    and there was a toilet with a shower.  And that evening, when they were

 6    all there, I placed a table in the corridor which separated the shower

 7    with the toilet from the other part of the corridor.  I did this so that

 8    the people detained there could use it, only the people kept there could

 9    use it.  And the door to the shower and the toilet wasn't working; it

10    wasn't possible to lock it.  So we found a temporary solution so that it

11    was possible to lock the door from the inside.

12       Q.   At that point in time, was it possible for you to provide those

13    people in the school, or was it possible for you to provide the people in

14    Mehurici with better conditions than the ones you have just described?

15       A.   No.  In Mehurici, there was just the primary school building.

16    Mehurici is a village.  There's a small police station there, but the

17    conditions couldn't have been better than they were.  The conditions were

18    the best in that school in Mehurici.

19       Q.   Tell me, from the very first day who provided security for the

20    place where the civilians were kept, and were they locked up in that

21    sports hall?

22       A.   No.  In the corridor which I had separated, there were my

23    policemen, myself.  The door to the corridor wasn't locked, but the door

24    to the school yard was locked for security reasons, in order to make sure

25    that no one arrived from that direction at night.  I could say that we

Page 12607












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Page 12608

 1    were friends, in a sense, because every morning they thanked me; and if

 2    they had something to eat, they would ask me to sit down and eat with

 3    them.

 4       Q.   Tell me, after the first day, do you know who assumed the

 5    responsibility to feed the people who were in the sports hall?

 6       A.   Well, I think that on the following day, after I had returned, and

 7    when I met -- when I saw this wounded man - I think his name was Zeljko -

 8    on the following day, I saw that the local civilian protection had already

 9    started bringing some food and other items; that they needed some

10    blankets, et cetera.  The civilian protection had already assumed the

11    responsibility to help them; they had assumed the responsibility to ensure

12    that sanitary conditions were adequate.

13       Q.   For how long did members of your military police unit provide

14    security for that hall?  Did anyone else take over that responsibility at

15    any point in time?

16       A.   Well, we secured the hall for three, four, five days, I don't know

17    how long exactly, and later on, the civilian police assumed the

18    responsibility for securing it, together with the civilian protection.

19       Q.   Mr. HB, while you were still in Mehurici, did the Red Cross come

20    to visit, and if so, what did they do there?

21       A.   Yes, I saw them on one occasion.  I was in the hall at the time; I

22    think I was even speaking to this wounded person when they said that the

23    Red Cross had arrived.  I think two women and two men entered.  I went out

24    because I thought I had nothing to do there.  On the whole, they spoke to

25    the doctor, because she was some -- because she was some sort of a chief

Page 12609

 1    there.  I don't know what they talked about.

 2                          [Technical difficulty]

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a problem.

 4            Mr. Registrar, the stenographer cannot follow the proceedings.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  Is that better?  One, two, three.

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's working now.  Please

 7    continue.

 8            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9       Q.   Did any of the representatives of the Red Cross make any remarks

10    to you, or to your command, if you are aware of it?

11       A.   They didn't say anything to me.  I don't know whether they had any

12    objections conveyed to the command, but had they, I would probably know

13    about it.

14       Q.   When you said that you spoke to this wounded man, whose name you

15    remember as being Zeljko, did he describe the event in detail for you, or

16    was it just simply that he said that he managed to survive the execution,

17    as you said?

18       A.   He just told me that he survived the execution.  He didn't give me

19    any details.  For me, it was sufficient that he had survived, and I was

20    fearful as to what next, because there weren't many soldiers around and I

21    believe to this day that I was right.

22       Q.   This fear, was it fear for the man's life, if people knew that he

23    was there?

24       A.   Yes.  For his life, as well as the life of the others, the women,

25    the children, and the elderly, and probably for our own lives as well,

Page 12610

 1    because in such an event, there would be a conflict between us and them.

 2       Q.   Tell me, please, did you include in your statement to your

 3    superior what the wounded man told you?

 4       A.   Yes, I did.

 5       Q.   After performing your duties for four or five days, as you said,

 6    did you, Mr. HB, receive another assignment, and if so, what was it?

 7       A.   Yes.  There was fighting in that period of time in Guca Gora.  I

 8    think that our people had entered Guca Gora, and I was tasked to go with

 9    several policemen, because we already knew that in Guca Gora, there was a

10    military police unit from Zenica, that we should go and assist them, to

11    try and protect Guca Gora, the monastery, and everything else, against

12    looting, torturing, et cetera.

13       Q.   How long did you spend on that assignment, you personally, and did

14    you go anywhere else, and why?

15       A.   I stayed in Guca Gora for about two or three days, and after that,

16    I went to Travnik, because there was still a chance to form this new

17    Banja Luka brigade.  And the War Presidency of Banja Luka was in Travnik.

18    And I went there for talks, and we tried to work on the formation of such

19    a brigade.

20       Q.   After taking over this new assignment, did you return to the

21    306th Brigade?

22       A.   No, I didn't.

23       Q.   Today, as a citizen of Sweden, when thinking about this event that

24    you have just described to this Honourable Court, can you tell us whether

25    this event had a permanent effect on you due to the fact that you were

Page 12611

 1    unable to help those people?

 2       A.   Yes.  For a long time I would dream a recurrence of all those

 3    events, and I still don't know whether I could have done more.  And all

 4    this time I have been suppressing this deep in my mind; however, as I look

 5    back, memories return.  I'm still not sure, but I do believe that I did

 6    everything in my power.

 7       Q.   Mr. HB, could you have entered the Mujahedin camp at the time and

 8    continued an investigation to see who was behind it?  Was there any

 9    possibility of the army doing that?

10       A.   No.  That was simply impossible.  All we could do was to compile a

11    report, which we did.  But for us to investigate, that was not possible,

12    because we were the military police.  We investigate events and actions by

13    soldiers; however, those men were not members of our army, and we had no

14    instructions to investigate anything.  And I think that the chief of

15    security, Hasan, sent this report to the Security Services Centre of the

16    brigade.  Now, whether anything was done, I really don't know.

17       Q.   Mr. HB, two more brief questions.  You said that those Mujahedin

18    did not assist your battalion in any way.  Tell me, did your battalion or

19    your brigade provide any kind of assistance to those Mujahedin in the

20    camp?

21       A.   Certainly not.  We didn't even talk to them.  We would only see

22    them, speeding in a car along the road by the school and crying out in

23    Arabic, as if they were yelling at us, because we would sometimes have a

24    drink.  Sometimes we would take a walk with some women and they didn't

25    like this.  It bothered them.

Page 12612

 1       Q.   And my last question:  Did your battalion ever take part in any

 2    combat operations with the Mujahedin?

 3       A.   No.  As far as I know, or at least while I was there, we did not.

 4    And I don't believe that that ever happened.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. HB, for answering my questions.

 6            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

 7    questions for this witness.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

 9            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We

10    don't have any questions for this witness.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

12            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13                          Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

14       Q.   Good morning, witness.  My name is Daryl Mundis, and along with my

15    colleagues here, we represent the Prosecution in this case.  I'm going to

16    ask you some questions for the next hour or so.  I want to reiterate what

17    the Presiding Judge and my learned colleague told you earlier in the sense

18    that if you don't understand any of my questions, I would just ask you to

19    inform me of that and I'll rephrase or restate the question so that you do

20    understand it.  It is not my intention in any way to confuse you with the

21    questions that I ask.

22            Do you understand that?

23       A.   Yes, I do.

24            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, I would ask, with the assistance of

25    the usher, if he could perhaps move the ELMO so I could better see the

Page 12613

 1    witness.  It's blocking my line of sight.  Thank you.

 2            I would also ask if we could briefly go into private session so

 3    that we can ask the witness a few questions.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Let us go into private

 5    session, please.

 6            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in private session,

 7    Mr. President.

 8                          [Private session]

 9  (Redacted)

10  (Redacted)

11  (Redacted)

12  (Redacted)

13  (Redacted)

14  (Redacted)

15  (Redacted)

16  (Redacted)

17  (Redacted)

18  (Redacted)

19  (Redacted)

20  (Redacted)

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23  (Redacted)

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25  (Redacted)

Page 12614












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Page 12615

 1  (Redacted)

 2                          [Open session]

 3            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you.

 4       Q.   Now, sir, in a few moments I'm going to show you a map and ask you

 5    if you can make some markings on the map, including the routes that you

 6    took both to and from Maline on the day that you had, as you described it,

 7    that close encounter with the Mujahedin.  But let me ask you first:  You

 8    told us about the presence of some minefields in the area; is that

 9    correct?

10       A.   Yes, it is.

11       Q.   How did you become aware of the presence of these minefields?

12       A.   The day before our troops had left for the lines in Maline,

13    there's a small locality, I don't know what its name is, it's on the road

14    towards Mehurici.  From the center of Mehurici, it may be a kilometre

15    away.  And there's a small bridge and a big house, which used to be some

16    sort of a warehouse.  And I think the owner of that house was Veso Balta.

17    And there was some skirmishes there.  And as the police, we arrived and we

18    found on the bridge itself some explosives that were tied with wire to the

19    generator, or to the battery in a car that was about a hundred metres from

20    the bridge.  One of those people, where he released the -- untied the

21    explosive, he came across two mines, a tank mine and a trip mine, which

22    were visible.  So we didn't dare take that route because we feared for our

23    own safety.  And that is why we assumed that the area was mined.

24       Q.   Other than this bridge in the immediate area where you observed

25    these mines, were you aware of any other minefields in the area of Maline,

Page 12616

 1    Bikosi or Mehurici?

 2       A.   No.

 3            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I

 4    would ask that the witness be shown a map which is, again, an enlarged

 5    version of the map we've been using throughout these proceedings.  And I

 6    do have sufficient copies for everyone in and around the courtroom.

 7       Q.   Sir, I would ask you to take a look now, if you would, please, at

 8    the map that is to your right on the projection machine.  I know you can

 9    also see it in front of you, but if you could look at the paper copy of

10    the map to your right, I would ask you if you recognise what's depicted on

11    this map.

12       A.   I'm just trying to do that.  If I'm right that this is the bridge

13    in Mehurici, this here, then I think I could find my way.  If somebody

14    could tell me whether this is where the bridge in Mehurici is.

15       Q.   Sir, it's not really appropriate for me to tell you what's on the

16    map.  Let me first ask you if you recognise what's depicted in this map,

17    the area that's depicted on this map.

18       A.   Not too well.  Not too well.

19       Q.   Sir, is it your testimony that it would not be helpful for us to

20    use this map?  You don't recognise of the features on this map?

21       A.   No.

22       Q.   Okay.  Let me then ask you some additional questions that don't

23    necessarily relate to the map.

24            You told us earlier that you left the school in Mehurici between

25    0900 and 1000 hours, is that correct, on the day where you had the close

Page 12617

 1    encounter with the Mujahedin.

 2       A.   Yes.  No, not the school.  I left the school in Mehurici -- I said

 3    I reached the village of Maline between 9.00 and 10.00.

 4       Q.   What time did you leave Mehurici?

 5       A.   It might have been around 7.00, because the soldiers went in front

 6    of us.  We went behind our front lines.  So as the combat operations

 7    approached the village, we went behind the troops.  We waited for the sign

 8    to enter the village, once the troops had captured it.

 9       Q.   And where did you wait for this sign to enter the village?

10       A.   There's a small hill on the road we took.  We were going on foot

11    by the Mujahedin camp, and there's a stream there and a path which can

12    take you to a little hill, with two big rocks, and you have a view of the

13    whole area of Maline from there.

14       Q.   Do you know, sir, if there are any settlements or hamlets at the

15    top of the hill where you observed Maline?

16       A.   I can't remember now.  Really, it was a long time ago.

17       Q.   At the time of -- on this day, by the time you went to this hill

18    overlooking Maline, approximately how long had you been with the 306th --

19    the 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade?

20       A.   I don't understand the question.  Do you mean all in all, or just

21    that day?

22       Q.   All in all, sir.  How long had you been with the 1st Battalion of

23    the 306th Mountain Brigade on or about the 8th of June, when these events

24    took place?

25       A.   Approximately five months.  Five, six.

Page 12618

 1       Q.   During the five or six months prior to this date that you were

 2    with the 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade, how familiar had you

 3    become with the terrain in the area around Mehurici?

 4       A.   Well, I could say well, but only if you took the road.  I know

 5    Mehurici quite well, because there's a hamlet; there are several houses

 6    behind the police station where we would go to take a bath in the stream.

 7    There's another settlement belonging to Mehurici; I think its name is

 8    Jezerci, where there were several soldiers, members of the brigade, and

 9    while I was a policeman, I would go to fetch them personally, because they

10    didn't respond when given assignments.  And above Mehurici, there's a road

11    leading to Gluha Bukovica.  Below Mehurici, you can take the road to

12    Travnik; you turn right to go via Maline, Guca Gora, to Travnik.  If you

13    go straight ahead, you're going towards Zenica.  So those would be the

14    roads that we used.

15       Q.   Sir, you told us earlier today a little about the Mujahedin camp.

16    I'd like to know if you can tell us when you first became aware that this

17    camp was in the vicinity of Mehurici?

18       A.   I think as soon as I arrived there, as soon as I arrived in

19    Mehurici, because I would come across these people on a daily basis,

20    driving by in cars, and they were going some place.  And that is when I

21    learned that up on the hill there was a Mujahedin camp.

22       Q.   Do you know, sir, during the five or six months that you were in

23    Mehurici, approximately how many Mujahedin were in this camp in total?

24       A.   We would wonder ourselves how many there might be.  My rough

25    estimate would be up to 150.  But these people, when they put on those

Page 12619

 1    scarves and robes, they all look alike, so there may have been more or

 2    less of them.

 3       Q.   And, sir, can you give us a rough estimate as to the size of the

 4    camp near Mehurici that the Mujahedin were in?

 5       A.   I'll try, because only on two occasions did I pass by the camp;

 6    once on my way to Maline and a second time on returning, when this

 7    incident occurred.  And I believe that the camp, as such, may have been

 8    200 metres by 200 metres, so a circle with a diameter of about 200 metres.

 9    I may be wrong, I don't know, but that would be a rough estimate.

10       Q.   And I believe, sir, you told us that this camp was approximately

11    200 metres from the school; is that correct?

12       A.   Not from the school, from the bridge in Mehurici.

13       Q.   From the bridge.

14       A.   About 200, 300 metres away from the bridge.  Perhaps 300 or 400

15    metres from the school, I really don't know.  A lot of time has passed

16    since then.

17       Q.   Okay.  Prior to the day when you had the close encounter with the

18    Mujahedin, can you tell us about your knowledge of what activities they

19    were undertaking, if you knew anything about what they were doing from the

20    camp near Mehurici?

21       A.   To tell you the truth, I knew very little.  When we saw them, we

22    saw them driving by in cars.  They kept driving by in cars, going to and

23    fro.  They had a Toyota; they had some kind of a Jeep too; a van as well.

24    They were constantly driving by in these vehicles.  They would sometimes

25    open fire.  I had a girlfriend in the village, and I would sometimes go

Page 12620

 1    for a walk with her.  And when they turned up, if she wasn't dressed

 2    according to the rules, they would open fire and they would ask that she

 3    cover herself.  As to what they did, I really don't know.

 4       Q.   You told us earlier, sir, that the -- let me ask you a couple more

 5    questions about the unit.

 6            You were assigned as the commander of a military police unit

 7    within the 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade; is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes, as commander of the police.

 9       Q.   And you told us that you had, as a rough estimate, approximately

10    10 military policemen, but occasionally you would get older combatants who

11    would assist you with special tasks that you were assigned; is that fair?

12       A.   Yes, it is.

13       Q.   And you told us earlier that part of your duties included

14    conducting investigations.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   At any point in time prior to the day on which you had the close

17    encounter with the Mujahedin, were you or the military policemen of the

18    1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade involved in any kind of

19    investigative work concerning any activities undertaken by the Mujahedin?

20       A.   No.

21       Q.   Would you describe, sir, or how would you describe how -- or how

22    would you characterise these Mujahedin in terms of what kind of reactions

23    they prompted within yourself?  How did you feel when you saw these

24    people?

25       A.   Well, I saw them as foreigners, and I always asked myself what

Page 12621

 1    they were doing there.  I don't know.  We didn't have any contact, nor did

 2    we speak a common language that would enable us to communicate.  I would

 3    only see such people on occasion on TV, in Arab countries or in poor

 4    countries.  There were rumours according to which they had come in order

 5    to provide assistance.  I don't know who they assisted.  They didn't help

 6    us.

 7       Q.   Prior to the 8th of June, or thereabouts, 1993, were you afraid of

 8    these Mujahedin?

 9       A.   I wasn't afraid, but I didn't like seeing them, because they

10    didn't seem friendly.  I don't know.  Perhaps I grew up in the wrong

11    environment.  To be afraid, well, it wouldn't be the right way to put it,

12    but I felt uneasy when I saw them.

13       Q.   Sir, on how many occasions, if any, did you discuss the Mujahedin

14    with the local civilian police prior to the 8th of June, 1993?

15       A.   Well, did I speak about the Mujahedin with the local police?

16    Perhaps I did, but I can't remember.  But in the village, there was a

17    cafe, and sometimes we would have coffee there and some plum brandy.  A

18    policeman and I would sometimes go there; we'd have a chat.  Perhaps we

19    discussed this on one occasion, because on one occasion the Mujahedin

20    captured the owner of the cafe that we went to, and an inhabitant and even

21    a combatant.  But I can't really remember what happened afterwards.

22    Something happened, but I don't know whether it was the civilian police

23    who dealt with the matter or the civilian authorities, I really can't

24    remember.  But I know that there were problems with the owner of that

25    cafe.  Perhaps they didn't want to allow him to serve alcohol, because the

Page 12622

 1    cafe was close to the mosque, which is where they would go and gather.

 2       Q.   Sir, do you recall any specific instances in which you discussed

 3    any type of security concerns about the Mujahedin with any of the civilian

 4    police in Mehurici?

 5       A.   I don't remember that.  But the situation in the village was such

 6    that there was some individuals that the Mujahedin went after.  They

 7    wanted to recruit some local inhabitants, and I think some local

 8    inhabitants were even trained in the camp.  And some of the Mujahedin had

 9    wives from the village whom they had married.  In that part of Mehurici,

10    the population was divided, to a certain extent, because there were some

11    that had religious convictions.  I myself am not much of a believer, but

12    if conflict had broken out, it would have divided the population.

13       Q.   Well, sir, I wasn't specifically asking about conflict, I was

14    simply asking if you had any specific discussions with the local civilian

15    police, in your role as commander of the military police unit, concerning

16    the security situation with respect to this Mujahedin camp just outside

17    Mehurici.

18       A.   I didn't have any discussions.  I don't know whether my chief of

19    security did, because my position wasn't such that I would take those

20    decisions.  I was just the police commander.  It would be the chief of

21    security who would get involved in discussions.  But as to whether he

22    actually did this, I don't know.

23       Q.   Let me ask you a few questions about the school.  During the time

24    period that you were with the military police unit of the 1st Battalion of

25    the 306th Mountain Brigade, where did the military policemen sleep?  Where

Page 12623

 1    did you and your military policemen sleep?

 2       A.   In the second classroom from the right.  On the ground floor, I

 3    think there were three classrooms, and we were in the middle one.  In the

 4    first classroom, I think there were some people from Siprage.  The members

 5    of my military police unit were in the middle classroom.  And there were

 6    some members from Kotor Vares who slept classroom number one.

 7       Q.   And during the five to six months that you were with the military

 8    police unit of the 1st Battalion of the 306th Mountain Brigade, is it your

 9    testimony that there were no Mujahedin upstairs in any of the upper floors

10    of that school?

11       A.   Well, I would have known about that. No, they weren't up there .

12    All the men from Siprage slept on the floor with the commander with the

13    two toilets.  I went to wash up there.  They weren't up there.  They

14    weren't in the school at all.

15       Q.   And the time period that you were with the military police

16    battalion was from approximately January through June of 1993; is that

17    correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Now, sir, in response to a question from my learned colleague, you

20    said that these persons that you initially called Arabs and then

21    Mujahedin, you said, "In my opinion, that was an appropriate name for

22    them," referring to the name Mujahedin.  Can you tell us why you thought

23    that was an appropriate name for them?

24       A.   I had never heard of the term "Mujahedin" until the war broke out.

25    I myself called such people Arabs.  But the word "Mujahedin" means armed

Page 12624

 1    men, it means -- well, how would I put it, something terrible.  And when I

 2    saw the way they looked, that they had those scarves and those long tunics

 3    and those beards, well, the word itself means something terrible, in my

 4    opinion.  And that word is one that is very appropriate for them.

 5       Q.   Okay, sir, I'd like to turn now to the time period of

 6    approximately the 8th of June 1993, the day you when you had the close

 7    encounter with the Mujahedin.  You told us that you arrived at a hill

 8    overlooking Maline sometime between 0900 and 0100?

 9       A.   Yes.  At about 9.00 or 10.00, we had already entered the village.

10    The people had gathered in the center of the village by the hospital.

11    There were troops of ours there.  There was ongoing shooting.  We were

12    planning how to go and pass through those houses to see what was

13    happening.  We weren't sure whether there was anyone in the village.

14       Q.   Let me take you back a little bit earlier.  You told us earlier

15    that you only passed by the Mujahedin camp on two occasions during the

16    five- to six-month period that you were with the 306th Mountain Brigade,

17    and the first time was that morning.

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Do you know approximately what time you passed by that camp?

20       A.   7.00 or 8.00, half past 7.00, that was the time period.  We went

21    on foot and passed by the stream.  That's the first time I found out that

22    there was this path about the camp, and that was the quickest route to use

23    to get to Maline.

24       Q.   You told us also that you were on a hill overlooking Maline,

25    waiting for a signal to enter Maline.  How long did it take you to get to

Page 12625

 1    this hill overlooking Maline?

 2       A.   I don't know.  Perhaps an hour or an hour and a half, because you

 3    had to be careful.  There was shooting.  You might come across a soldier

 4    of ours.  You might not be sure whether he was one of our soldiers.  But

 5    we waited there to see whether everything was safe.  When we saw our

 6    troops, those troops gave us a sign and we knew that we could go on.

 7       Q.   This hill that you were on waiting for that sign, were there any

 8    houses on that hill?

 9       A.   I know there were rocks there.  I can remember these rocks.  But I

10    was only there on two occasions, 11 years ago.

11       Q.   This position that you were on, approximately how high above

12    Maline was this location with the rocks where you were awaiting the

13    signal?

14       A.   There's a path from Maline that leads to those rocks.  There was a

15    path that we took.  As to how high it was, I don't know.  Perhaps -- well,

16    you can see Maline from that position.  Perhaps 50 metres above.  I don't

17    know.  I couldn't really say.

18       Q.   Sir, do you know if the location where you were awaiting the

19    signal from your unit in Maline, do you know if that was known as Bikosi?

20       A.   I don't know.  Bikosi is a village.  As far as I can remember,

21    it's a village in the vicinity.  There weren't any houses there.  The

22    place where you have these rocks was probably part of Maline.  It's just a

23    little hill, perhaps 100 metres from Maline.

24       Q.   Okay, sir, can you then please describe your -- well, let me ask

25    you this first:  How many military policemen were with you as you entered

Page 12626

 1    Maline?

 2       A.   About 10.  About 10.

 3       Q.   What kind of clothing were you wearing, and what kind of arms, if

 4    any, did you have?

 5       A.   We had automatic weapons on us.  I had an automatic rifle and a

 6    pistol.  We had white insignia that said the police.  We had camouflage

 7    uniforms.  I don't know whether everyone had uniforms.  Some, perhaps,

 8    wore jeans or jackets.  But we all had white police insignia on us.

 9       Q.   Can you please describe for us, as you entered the village, what

10    you saw with respect to the people, the civilians and any HVO soldiers

11    that you saw?

12       A.   When we entered the village, I saw a group of women, children, and

13    old people who were standing in front of a house.  There was a yard there,

14    too.  They were standing in the road.  Our troops were passing by as well,

15    because shooting was still ongoing.  I didn't know whether our troops were

16    shooting, whether the HVO was shooting.  And other people - women,

17    children, and old people - were leaving, were coming out of their houses

18    and asking themselves what they should do and where they should go,

19    because among the civilians there was a lot concern.  They were afraid.

20    They kept asking if there were any Mujahedin present.  They were spreading

21    fear among themselves.

22       Q.   So, sir, as you arrived in the village, there was shooting that

23    was continuing, and as this shooting was taking place, the people were

24    coming out of their houses and gathering in the village of Maline; is that

25    correct?  Is that what you observed?

Page 12627

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Because when I arrived there, the HVO members who had

 2    surrendered, they were standing there without their weapons.  Our troops

 3    were guarding them, or they had already disarmed them.  And family members

 4    probably approached them and stood by them.  There were other people

 5    coming out of their houses; some of them were crying, some were concerned.

 6       Q.   Can you tell us how intense the fighting and shooting was that you

 7    heard as you entered the village and saw these people gathering in front

 8    of their houses?  Can you characterise the intensity of that fighting?

 9       A.   There was sporadic shooting in the village, but up in the hills,

10    there was more intense shooting.  Our troops had already set off in the

11    direction of the hills.  You could hear shooting among the houses, and one

12    couldn't know whether fire was opened by HVO members who had remained and

13    hadn't surrender.  We didn't know whether our troops were shooting,

14    because the village wasn't really a small one, it was quite big.

15       Q.   And approximately how many surrendered HVO soldiers did you

16    observe in this group when you arrived?

17       A.   Well, there were quite a lot of them.  There were old people, too.

18    I don't know if they were HVO members, but there were four or five

19    individuals in uniform, in camouflage uniforms.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.

20    Perhaps there were six or seven of them.  But that's more or less the

21    number of individuals in uniform.  One person, I believe his name was

22    Zeljko, he was in uniform.

23       Q.   And approximately -- well, I believe you testified earlier that

24    you remained in the village for approximately three to four hours before

25    deciding to return to Mehurici with these people.

Page 12628

 1       A.   Yes, more or less.

 2       Q.   During the three to four hours that you remained in Maline, did

 3    the fighting and gunfire continue during that period?

 4       A.   Yes, the gunfire continued, but it wasn't as intense.  And you

 5    could even hear shells exploding.  But during that three- or four-hour

 6    period, someone would open fire from a house.  And since the troops was

 7    there, we would run up to the house to see what was happening, to see

 8    whether it was an HVO member shooting, to see whether someone was trying

 9    to commit a crime against the civilians.  There was a lot of work to do.

10    We only had 10 policemen.  Two, three, or four policemen were standing by

11    the civilians.  Some people would be crying.  You'd run to see what was

12    happening, to see whether anyone needed any help.  The situation was

13    really difficult.

14       Q.   And throughout that period, while you could still hear gunfire and

15    even shells exploding, the people remained in front of their homes in this

16    area, in Maline?

17       A.   Yes.  Yes.

18       Q.   And then at some point in the early afternoon, you decided to take

19    them to Mehurici; is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And you've already told us that a small number of people were put

22    in a truck because they were elderly or were otherwise unable to walk.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Now, sir, when you departed Mehurici with this column of

25    individuals, the civilians and the surrendered HVO, were they in any way

Page 12629

 1    segregated in this column or were they co-mingled together?

 2       A.   No.  We all left together.  There were probably family members who

 3    were present, and the families would stick together.  But I believe that

 4    there were six HVO members, because we found three cases of shells in the

 5    village and we gave these shells to them so that they could carry them.

 6    There were three cases of shells.  And these six went in three rows, two

 7    by two.  We even spoke about certain things.

 8       Q.   What, if you know, sir, can you tell us what type of shells these

 9    were?  Were these shells for an artillery weapon or for a mortar, or were

10    they hand grenades?  Or what type of shells were they?

11       A.   I don't know.  I believe they were hand grenades, but I can't be

12    sure.

13       Q.   Other than these three cases of what you believed to be hand

14    grenades, did the surrendered HVO soldiers have any weapons with them?

15       A.   Not at the time.  They had already surrendered to our army.  They

16    had surrendered before I arrived, so they had no weapons on them.  But

17    when we were forming the column, I, first of all, told everyone that it

18    wouldn't be wise if some of them had weapons.  So I said that if anyone

19    had a weapon, they should surrender the weapons.  If they found a weapon,

20    we would have to take action.  So we searched them all to make sure that

21    they didn't have any weapons, and then we set off in the column, because

22    there were only five policemen.

23       Q.   And I take it, then, from that answer, sir, that you left the

24    other five, approximately five, policemen in Maline?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 12630

 1       Q.   Now, you told us earlier, I believe, that you estimate there to be

 2    approximately 200 people in this column, including civilians and the six

 3    surrendered HVO.

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And you set off in the early afternoon back towards Mehurici.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   At any point after you left Mehurici did any other persons join

 8    the column, whether civilians or other surrendered HVOs?

 9       A.   I don't understand the question.  After leaving Mehurici?

10       Q.   I'm sorry, after leaving Maline.  I'm sorry.  When you left Maline

11    with approximately 200 people, including civilians and the six HVO

12    soldiers, as you left Maline but before you got to the Mujahedin camp, did

13    any other civilians or surrendered HVO soldiers join the column that you

14    were leading?

15       A.   No.

16       Q.   Approximately how long did it take this column to go from Maline

17    to the Mujahedin camp?

18       A.   In my judgement, two to two and a half hours.

19       Q.   Let me take you, then, to the time you arrived by the Mujahedin

20    camp.  To the best of your recollection, approximately what time was that?

21       A.   About 4.00, 4.30, something like that.

22       Q.   And, sir, at the time you approached that camp, where were you in

23    relation to the column of people?

24       A.   At the front of the column.  I was talking to someone in the

25    front, because the men carrying the cases with the grenades or the shells

Page 12631

 1    were going in front, and I was also up front.  There was a policeman next

 2    to me, another one a little further away in the middle, and there was one

 3    on the other side and one at the end.

 4       Q.   And as you approached the camp, how far away from the camp was it

 5    possible to see the camp, if you understand?  As you're coming down the

 6    path, could you see the camp from a distance, or was the terrain or the

 7    vegetation such that you couldn't see the camp until you were right upon

 8    the camp?

 9       A.   You couldn't see the camp, because it's a wooded area.  A stream

10    had formed a path, the water had made the path.  But the camp couldn't be

11    seen.  It was full of foliage, and the vegetation was such.  And then

12    midway, where you can see, in a visible area, these two emerged who

13    demanded that we hand them over.  And on the hill, on the slope above the

14    path, there were these three Mujahedin.

15       Q.   Let me ask you about the two that you first encountered.  What

16    were they wearing?

17       A.   They were wearing black masks, you could only see their eyes, and

18    camouflage uniforms.  They had automatic weapons.  I don't remember

19    whether they had anything else.

20       Q.   So these two individuals with black masks and camouflage uniforms,

21    did they each have one automatic weapon?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And I assume it was some kind of automatic rifle or long-barreled

24    automatic weapon?

25       A.   Yes, it was.

Page 12632

 1       Q.   And approximately how far, when you first saw these two men, how

 2    far away from you -- how far away were you from them?  What was the

 3    distance between you and these two men who appeared?

 4       A.   We were about a metre or two near each other.  At some point I

 5    thought that there were troops coming, and only when we approached, they

 6    stopped and said that they wanted to take these men.  I didn't expect any

 7    such thing to happen.

 8       Q.   So you initially believed that they were some of your troops, you

 9    say, coming?  "At some point I thought that there were troops coming."

10    You thought that they were part of the ABiH?

11       A.   I could see two men approaching.  I didn't know who they were.  I

12    had a weapon; I held it to the ready.  I thought they were normal people,

13    our men.  But as it's a bit dark there because of the leaves, and you're

14    going down along the stream, and only once I approached they removed these

15    socks and told me to stop.  And that is when they started demanding these

16    people.  At first, I thought that there were just two of them, so I

17    thought I could deal with them alone.  And then these three appeared

18    behind them, about five or six metres away.  They just stood there and

19    watched.

20       Q.   So if I understand what you're saying, you saw these two men and

21    they were walking towards you?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   At first you thought they were soldiers of the ABiH, and then you

24    saw that they were wearing masks?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 12633

 1       Q.   And then you said, "Only once I approached them, they removed

 2    these socks and told me to stop."  Is that correct?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4       Q.   So at the time they spoke to you, they had removed the masks?

 5       A.   No.

 6       Q.   Did they remove the masks at any point in time when you were

 7    speaking to them?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   And I assume, sir, that they were speaking to you in the Bosnian

10    language.

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Did they have any type of accent that might tell you where they

13    were from, either in Bosnia or perhaps somewhere else, or did it seem to

14    you to be a relatively common Bosnian accent that they had?

15       A.   They simply had these masks on their heads.  Whether they had an

16    accent or not, I can't remember.  But I don't think it was pure Bosnian.

17       Q.   How much of their face could you see, given that they were wearing

18    masks?

19       A.   Eyes, their eyes.  You could see their eyes.

20       Q.   Could you see any other part of their body or skin through their

21    clothing?

22       A.   No.  No.  They had gloves with the fingers cut off.

23       Q.   During the time that you were having the conversation with these

24    two men, or this discussion that you had with these two men, how far away

25    from them were you?

Page 12634

 1       A.   Two metres.

 2       Q.   Two metres.  At any point in time did you move closer to them?

 3       A.   Yes.  I had my weapon pointed at them.

 4       Q.   Can you explain to us, sir, how, if you were standing two metres

 5    away from this masked man, with your weapon pointed at him, he was able to

 6    put his automatic weapon into your mouth?

 7       A.   I don't know whether I can explain the situation to you fully.

 8    People, men, standing two metres away from me, and five metres from them,

 9    another three Mujahedin with their guns pointed at us but not saying

10    anything.  It's only these two that were talking to me.  And I was holding

11    a weapon pointed at them in one hand.  And they are telling me that they

12    want to take over care of the column, and I say to them that they can't,

13    that I have to take the column to the school.  And then they start coming

14    out from the sides.  From the thicket, other men appear.  And then I turn

15    around to look, and they approach me with weapons.  I do have an automatic

16    rifle, but they're approaching me with rifles.  And as I see all these men

17    coming out with masks, they all have their guns pointed.  I could have

18    reacted; I could have opened fire.  I don't know what I would have

19    achieved had I done that.  I thought that this could be dealt with in a

20    different way.  And then they approached me and put the barrel of a rifle

21    in my mouth, and I've already told you about that.

22            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, I note the time.  I have, I would

23    anticipate, another 15 to 20 minutes of questions for the witness, but I

24    believe it's time for the next break.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  We will resume work at

Page 12635

 1    five to 1.00.

 2                          --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 3                          --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may continue.

 5            MR. MUNDIS:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6       Q.   Sir, right before the break, we were talking about the encounter

 7    you had right next to the Mujahedin camp in the vicinity of Mehurici.  Let

 8    me ask you, sir, as the person put the automatic rifle into your mouth,

 9    where were the -- where were your fellow military policemen, and what was

10    their reaction?

11       A.   One of them was close to me.  The others were as follows:  One was

12    at the back of the column, my brother was somewhere in the middle, about

13    10 metres away, and there was another policeman on the other side, roughly

14    the same distance.  That would be how we were distributed.

15       Q.   Did you observe, or do you know what any of their reactions were

16    as this soldier, or this person put this rifle into your mouth?

17       A.   I didn't see anything, but I did hear what their reaction was when

18    we returned to Mehurici.  When I was actually quarrelling with them,

19    saying that I wouldn't let them take over - this was before they put the

20    rifle in my mouth - their weapons were on the ready.  However, when these

21    others jumped out of the woods from the side, they lowered their weapons.

22    That is what they told me.

23       Q.   Now, I'll ask you in a moment about the persons who jumped out of

24    the woods, but let me ask you a couple of questions about the three people

25    standing behind the two men with the masks.  You told us there were three

Page 12636

 1    people behind them; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   What were those three people wearing, what type of clothing?

 4       A.   A camouflage uniform, and on that uniform, they had like a long

 5    scarf and camouflage uniforms and weapons on the ready.  They were

 6    foreigners.

 7       Q.   How do you know they were foreigners?

 8       A.   They had beards and a different colouring.  They were darker in

 9    colour.

10       Q.   So those three men were not wearing any kind of mask.

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   Now, as your column was approaching the Mujahedin camp - you told

13    us earlier that the two people with the masks were walking towards you -

14    where were those other three people?  How did they come to be standing

15    behind the two masked men?

16       A.   As I was going down the stream, the stream makes a bend, and at

17    that bend I saw those two men first, who were approaching me.  And they

18    were perhaps some 10 metres away.  So my instinct was to hold the weapon.

19    And as I approached them, I saw these three behind them, standing there at

20    the bend.  And I got -- as I got closer, I could see them quite well.

21       Q.   Were the three that you saw standing at the bend also walking

22    towards you, behind the two masked men who were walking?

23       A.   They were walking, rather, as if they were waiting for us to

24    approach.  They were walking but slowly.  They were waiting for us to come

25    up to them, whereas the three were just standing there.

Page 12637

 1       Q.   And how far away were you from the two masked men when you first

 2    saw them?

 3       A.   Five, six metres, maybe 10 metres away.

 4       Q.   Let me ask you now, sir, about the two -- the group of people that

 5    you say jumped out of the woods.  Approximately how many individuals came

 6    out of the woods once the whole column had stopped?

 7       A.   When the column stopped, no one came out of the woods.  It was

 8    after this dispute with them, whether they would take these people over or

 9    not.  And as the dispute became more aggressive, and when weapons were

10    pulled out, then these men came out.  At least five of them came up there.

11      I couldn't see beyond that, whether there were more, because by then the

12    barrel was in my mouth.

13       Q.   And how many -- excuse me.  What were the people who came out of

14    the words wearing?

15       A.   I think I saw five men who were also wearing masks and camouflage

16    uniforms.

17       Q.   Were those five wearing the masks and the camouflage uniforms also

18    armed?

19       A.   They were all armed.

20       Q.   And how did it come to be, if you can explain to us, how the

21    people that they took away were taken out of the column?  How did that

22    happen?  How did that transpire?

23       A.   It was very hard.  When these jumped out of the woods, just then

24    this tall one came up to me and pushed his rifle into my mouth, and he

25    forced me to turn around to see behind the column.  I just know that those

Page 12638

 1    three cases of hand grenades had been lowered to the ground, which means

 2    they took from the column those men in uniform.  And some older people

 3    picked up those cases, and even a policeman helped in carrying those

 4    cases, because when they let us go, we started running.

 5       Q.   Sir, when you told us that he forced you to turn around to see

 6    behind the column, I take it at that point he had to remove the rifle from

 7    your mouth in order to allow you to turn around?

 8       A.   No.  No.  With the rifle in my mouth, I turned around and I saw

 9    that they were pointing their weapons at my brother and all the others.

10    And they just entered into the column.  And how they took people out, I

11    don't know.  They would simply put them to one side.

12       Q.   I believe you testified earlier, sir, that they took away 15, or

13    perhaps as many as 20 people out of the column; is that correct?

14       A.   Yes, as far as I was able to see.  Because I counted that there

15    were six of them in uniform, where there were others who had camouflage

16    pants or civilians.  Anyway, I think it was between 15 and maybe 20.  I

17    don't know.

18       Q.   And, sir, where were you standing when you made the assessment

19    that 15 to 20 of them had been removed from the column?

20       A.   I was half turned towards the column to see the column.  With the

21    barrel in my mouth, I was afraid it would go off.  I didn't know what to

22    do.

23       Q.   Do you recall, sir, hearing any instructions being given to the

24    people in the column that resulted in 15 to 20 of the men being taken out

25    of the column?

Page 12639

 1       A.   I don't know.  I think that they simply entered and simply picked

 2    people out of the column, but I don't know, because those from the bushes,

 3    they entered among the column, they passed through the column.  Now,

 4    whether they picked out individuals or what, I don't know.

 5       Q.   To the best of your recollection, though, you don't remember

 6    anyone saying anything or yelling instructions or giving instructions to

 7    the people in the column.

 8       A.   I didn't hear anything.

 9       Q.   And it's your testimony that after these people were taken out of

10    the column, you and the four other military police ran with the column to

11    Mehurici.

12       A.   Yes.  They turned me around again, they took out the weapon from

13    my mouth, and they went to one side and said that we could now proceed.

14    And they let us go.

15       Q.   And you and the -- and you and your fellow military police and the

16    column then ran in the direction of Mehurici.

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Now, can you tell us how far away from the Mujahedin camp this

19    encounter took place?

20       A.   A hundred metres.  This hedge, this thicket, these woods, bordered

21    on the camp.  But it may have been about a hundred metres from the

22    entrance to the camp.

23       Q.   Now, sir, approximately what time did you arrive at the school in

24    Mehurici?

25       A.   I don't know exactly.  About 5.00, 6.00, 5.00, something like

Page 12640

 1    that.

 2       Q.   Upon your arrival in Mehurici, did you make any attempts to report

 3    what had happened to the civilian police authorities in Mehurici?

 4       A.   I didn't.  I didn't see them then even, because there were a lot

 5    of people there.  It was necessary to put them up.  And my lip was

 6    bleeding.  I had to put a bandage on it.  And you had to somehow put up so

 7    many people.  And once they had all entered the hall, we tried to find

 8    something to accommodate them.  I was under stress.  I didn't know what to

 9    do.  There wasn't any command member around to whom I could complain.  I

10    just simply didn't know whom to address.

11       Q.   So, sir, when you arrived back at the Mehurici school, is it your

12    testimony that there was no one from the 306th Mountain Brigade present in

13    the school?

14       A.   No one from the command.  There were only a few policemen on duty.

15    These older people who didn't engage in active operations, we had these

16    elderly people there.

17       Q.   Sir, do you know if any of the other military police who, along

18    with you, escorted this group made any immediate report to the police, the

19    civilian police, in Mehurici?

20       A.   I don't know, and I don't believe so, because they would have

21    probably addressed me first.

22       Q.   At any point in time, sir, after this event on or about the 8th of

23    June, 1993, did you or, to your knowledge, any of your military police

24    lodge any kind of complaint with the civilian police authorities about

25    what had happened on that day?

Page 12641

 1       A.   Yes.  When my superior, the commander, the chief of security,

 2    arrived, all of us gave a written report, which he took down, both the

 3    policemen who were there as well, and I think he sent this report to the

 4    brigade command, that is, the command of the 306th Brigade, the security

 5    service of that brigade.

 6       Q.   And, sir, do you recall the approximate day and time when you

 7    first spoke to your superior, the chief of security for the brigade, about

 8    this event?

 9       A.   I think it was two days after the event, because he was in Zenica.

10    And because of these operations, he couldn't get back to Mehurici as

11    communications were interrupted.

12       Q.   And on or about the 8th of June, do you know where your brigade

13    commander was?

14       A.   I think that he was at some forward command post.  I really don't

15    know, because I was a military policeman and he took part in the action,

16    the operations of liberation, or whatever, that were going on.

17       Q.   And, sir, did you participate, or were you aware of any

18    investigations carried out by the 306th Mountain Brigade into what

19    happened to the people that were taken out of the column that you were

20    escorting?

21       A.   No, I don't know anything about that.

22       Q.   And, sir, do you know what happened to the people that were taken

23    out of the column that you were escorting?

24       A.   Not at that time, but on the following day.  And I set out to

25    Maline to replace the policeman who was securing the houses in Maline.

Page 12642

 1    When I returned, I heard from the duty officer that some soldiers of ours,

 2    who were returning from the field, had found someone who had been wounded

 3    and they had taken him to the school.  So I went to the school to make a

 4    note of this person's identity, because I was keeping a record of all the

 5    people kept in the school.  And that is when I recognised this person,

 6    whose name I believe is Zeljko.  I don't know why I think his name is

 7    Zeljko, but that's what I remember.  I recognised him immediately, since

 8    he's the person I spoke to the most as we were at the front of the column

 9    and he was carrying one of those cases I have mentioned.  He told me that

10    he had survived an execution.

11            The doctor was with him, the doctor who was dressing his wounds,

12    and that is when I told him that it would be best, in my opinion, if he

13    didn't speak about the incident to anyone.  I said that when he was

14    exchanged, he could say whatever he wanted to say.

15       Q.   Thank you, Witness.

16            MR. MUNDIS:  Mr. President, the Prosecution has no further

17    questions at this time.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel?

19            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few questions, Your Honour.

20                          Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

21       Q.   [Interpretation] Could you tell me, since the Prosecution has

22    shown you a map you couldn't comment on, at any time before 1993, did you

23    ever go to the area of Travnik, or rather, to the area of the Bila valley?

24       A.   No, never.

25       Q.   How far is Banja Luka from this area?

Page 12643

 1       A.   I don't know exactly.  It's not far.  Perhaps a hundred kilometres

 2    or more.  I don't know exactly.

 3       Q.   Although, when answering questions from the Prosecution, you

 4    answered this question, I'd like to know whether, at any point in time

 5    from the time that you saw these two men who affronted you, at any point

 6    in time did one of them take these masks or stockings off their faces?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  I did this for the sake of the transcript, because it

 9    seems as if you had said that they had taken these masks off.  I don't

10    know which line this is.  It's page 60, line 16 and 17.  I think that we

11    have now clarified the interpretation of the answer you previously

12    provided.

13            Could you please tell me, when the column was practically stopped,

14    you said that there were about 200 men.  Were these -- 200 people.  Were

15    these people in an extended column, or was the column not that long?  Was

16    it sort of a concentrated column?

17       A.   Well, I wouldn't know what to say.  I couldn't really say whether

18    the column had become more concentrated.

19       Q.   And could you clarify something else.  In response to an answer to

20    the Prosecution as to where the brigade commander was, you said that he

21    was engaged in combat action somewhere.  But could you tell me whether you

22    knew where your battalion commander was?  And did you know where the

23    brigade commander was at that time?

24       A.   The battalion commander was probably at some forward command post

25    with the troops, and the brigade commander, well, I think that he was in

Page 12644

 1    Rudnik or somewhere where the brigade command was located.  But I didn't

 2    have any contact with the brigade and the command.  That wasn't my

 3    responsibility.

 4       Q.   One more question.  You said that you gave a detailed report to

 5    your superior, and there was a written report on the investigation he

 6    conducted two days after the event.  Tell me whether this was the first --

 7    this was done on the first occasion that you could fully inform your

 8    superior about what had happened to you.

 9       A.   Yes.  Because at the time he couldn't be reached.

10       Q.   Thank you.

11            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

12    questions.

13            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions,

14    Mr. President.  Thank you.

15                          Questioned by the Court:

16            JUDGE SWART:  Good morning, witness.  I would like to ask you a

17    few supplementary questions on what you told us today.  There have been

18    questions about the nature of the column, whether it was a long, extended

19    column or a concentrated one, and I've been putting these questions myself

20    also in the past because some witnesses have told us that when they went

21    to Mehurici, on their way they met other people who came back from

22    Mehurici, the direction to Maline, so this might suggest that the column

23    was quite long; and that when the first people, among them you, were

24    confronted with the Mujahedin, not the whole group was already there.

25    Could that be a possibility?  I think you don't really know, but please

Page 12645

 1    tell me if you know.

 2       A.   Well, I'm not sure that the entire group could be seen.  There was

 3    a sort of bend.  As to whether everything could be seen, I don't know.  I

 4    can tell you about what I witnessed.

 5            JUDGE SWART:  You didn't have a good view on what was happening

 6    behind you, so to speak, or beside you, because you thought you were

 7    threatened --

 8       A.   Perhaps a view of about half of the column.

 9            JUDGE SWART:  The second question I would like to put to you is on

10    this person you met in the music school.  You told us you spoke to a

11    person whose personal name was Zeljko, as far as you remember.  You don't

12    remember a family name.

13       A.   No.  I'm not even sure that Zeljko is his name.  But that's what I

14    remember.  I seem to remember his name being Zeljko.

15            JUDGE SWART:  And he was a witness to the events in Bikosi, and he

16    was found a day later in the field by your soldiers, or by someone else.

17       A.   I suppose that's how it was.  I heard that our troops had found

18    him and taken him to the school.

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12646

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22            JUDGE SWART:  Another point in his witness statement, in his

23    statement before this Court, is that he said he was transported from

24    Maline to Mehurici in a car and was not a member of the -- in the walking

25    column to Mehurici.  Do you have any explanation for that, or would you

Page 12647

 1    comment on that?

 2       A.   No.  Some people, a number of people who had already been wounded,

 3    who had been wounded before I reached the civilians, a group was

 4    transported in a vehicle from Maline.  Later I found out that the doctor

 5    was there, too.  I wasn't present, but some of the soldiers or the

 6    commanders who entered the village must have done that before I arrived.

 7            JUDGE SWART:  Let's go to another matter and to another witness

 8    who has testified before this Court.  This is a written statement that we

 9    have received in evidence in July.  It's under seal also.

10            This witness is describing the following event.  He is in a column

11    that has been stopped, and he is one of the persons that has been taken to

12    Bikosi, among other people.  And what he says about the meeting with the

13    Mujahedin is the following:  "Approximately half of them were Mujahedins

14    and the other half were local Muslims."

15            Is that your impression also, or could you tell -- could you not

16    tell this.

17       A.   I couldn't say because the people were masked.  As to whether they

18    were locals, as to the reason for which they had masks on them, I don't

19    know.

20            JUDGE SWART:  This witness, incidentally, is also one of the

21    witnesses who said, "while we were escorted, we saw a different group

22    coming from another direction," escorted by these people.  What matters to

23    me is the following, what he said:  "I can recall that all of them," and

24    he means the Mujahedin and the local Muslim, "I can recall that all of

25    them had insignia with some green and black on it."

Page 12648

 1            Is that also your recollection, or didn't you see anything like

 2    it?

 3       A.   I can't remember.

 4            JUDGE SWART:  And he said also the following:  "Three or four of

 5    the Muslim soldiers had a mask on their face, mostly green or black.

 6    Those with the masks were Bosnian soldiers.  I was able to tell that when

 7    I heard them talking."

 8            My question is the following:  "Three or four of the Muslim

 9    soldiers had a mask on their face, mostly green or black."  Do you

10    remember these colours, green or black masks?

11       A.   Black ones.  The men standing in front of me were wearing black

12    masks.  You could only see their eyes.

13            JUDGE SWART:  Other people have also talked about ribbons around

14    their hats.  Do you have any recollection about that?

15       A.   Yes.  There were some sort of ribbons, and there was some sort of

16    an inscription on these ribbons.

17            JUDGE SWART:  Could you read the inscription of those ribbons?

18    Was there a text on it or a particular ...

19       A.   There was something inscribed on them.  They were wearing them

20    on -- around their foreheads.

21            JUDGE SWART:  If there was something inscribed on it, on them,

22    could you read it?

23       A.   It was some sort of Arabic script.  It wasn't in our language.

24            JUDGE SWART:  My last question is related to what another witness

25    said in his statement to this Court.  He is describing the situation in

Page 12649

 1    Maline in his statement, so at the very beginning of the day -- of the 8th

 2    of June.  He said the following:  "I went with a BH army soldier to

 3    another house, and he asked me whether there were any weapons in the house

 4    and I showed him a hunting rifle.  He hung it over his shoulder and

 5    ordered me to lock the house.  My wife was in the house at the time and

 6    she asked where they were going to take us, and the soldier said they

 7    would take us to Mehurici so that the Mujahedin would not kill us."

 8            Could you explain to me this story?  The fact that the Mujahedin

 9    were somewhere in the neighbourhood of Mehurici, was that a fact the

10    Croats came up with that made them scared, or was it something you took

11    into account already before going to Maline?

12       A.   I'm not aware of that event.  This isn't something I have referred

13    to.  I don't remember such an event.  But there was fear of such events.

14    People were afraid that such forces might commit certain acts.

15            JUDGE SWART:  Let me put to you a related question.  Before you

16    went to Maline, before the evacuation took place, was there already an

17    idea among your police force, or in the army itself, to evacuate the

18    persons from Maline.

19       A.   Well, at that time, no, because I think that the command didn't

20    want to go further than Maline.  But as there was ongoing fighting there,

21    I did this on my own initiative, because the command wanted me to protect

22    the civilians.  While there was fighting, I couldn't protect these people,

23    so -- I couldn't protect these people in the village, so I decided to

24    protect them in Mehurici.  And I did this on my own initiative.

25            JUDGE SWART:  But you also mentioned this morning that one of your

Page 12650

 1    motives was that they could be exchanged against other prisoners taken by

 2    the HVO, isn't it?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4            JUDGE SWART:  So how does this square, then?

 5       A.   Well, because I had already heard about this system of exchange.

 6    When they'd already arrived in the school, I heard about the system of

 7    exchange.  I heard about this from the people who were in the school.

 8    That's the first time that I found out that the civilian population would

 9    be exchanged for HVO members and for BH army members.

10            JUDGE SWART:  This is something different from what you told us

11    this morning, I guess, but I'm not sure I have a remembrance of what you

12    were saying, that the exchange of prisoners was one of your motives for

13    taking them away from Maline.  But I'm not able to check it.

14            My last question, then:  It has already been alluded to by others

15    this morning, I think, and let me question you -- let me put the question

16    more squarely to you.

17            Are you familiar with the fact that in April of the same year, so

18    let's say two months before these events, people were killed by the

19    Mujahedin in the neighbourhood of Mehurici, or are you not aware of that?

20       A.   I had heard about that.

21            JUDGE SWART:  You heard the full story, or only some accidental

22    remark.

23       A.   No.  I think it was in April that I heard about it.  We were

24    guarding some positions when we returned.  I think it was when the

25    Mujahedin captured and took to prison -- took away to prison the owner of

Page 12651

 1    the cafe.  Well, on that occasion, there was a rumour, according to which

 2    they had killed someone in a Croatian village, I think.  But I really

 3    don't know whom they killed.

 4            JUDGE SWART:  Is that all you know about the previous incidents

 5    with the Mujahedin, the cafe holder?

 6       A.   Yes, that's the only incident that I witnessed.  And it was only

 7    when we returned to Mehurici that I heard that they had taken this person,

 8    Alija, away and some other people as well, because they served alcohol.

 9    But later on these people were released.  I don't know anything about

10    other incidents.

11            JUDGE SWART:  So you didn't hear that in the month of April some

12    five or six people were killed in Miletici as a result of military action

13    by the Mujahedin in Poljanice?  That is an unknown story to you?

14       A.   No, I didn't hear about that.

15            JUDGE SWART:  Thank you.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  I have two very

17    short questions.

18            When you went from Mehurici to Maline, when you went to Maline in

19    the morning, did you have an order to go there, and who gave you the order

20    to go to Maline with men from your unit?

21       A.   Well, the brigade command told me that if the action was

22    successful, if our troops were able to reach Maline, I should protect the

23    civilians and their property with my men.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were in Maline, the

25    column that was taken to Mehurici, was this something you did on your own

Page 12652

 1    initiative, or were you carrying out a specific order?

 2       A.   It was my personal initiative.  And my order was to protect the

 3    civilians, and I thought that I couldn't do this with 10 men, because the

 4    village is a big one.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To protect them.  But to protect

 6    them from whom, from what?

 7       A.   I was afraid, because there was fighting, there was shooting, and

 8    I was afraid that the men from the camp, the Mujahedin, might reach those

 9    people in the village.  That was what I was afraid of.  And I think that

10    the command also had this in mind, and that is why they sent the police

11    there.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To your mind, when the attack on

13    Maline took place, did the Mujahedin participate in the attack, too?

14       A.   No, they didn't.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So why did you think the

16    Mujahedin might go to Maline?

17       A.   Well, do you know why?  Because in my assessment, they were

18    vultures of a kind.  They would engage in looting.  They would go to those

19    villages.  After combat, I was afraid that they might camp, and I thought

20    that that camp near Mehurici might pose a threat.  Maybe I was mistaken,

21    but my order was to protect the civilians, and in my opinion, I acted

22    correctly.

23                          Further Cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

24            MR. MUNDIS:  I have, sir, just a couple of questions in follow-up

25    with those questions put to you by the Trial Chamber.

Page 12653

 1       Q.   Sir, if you were afraid of the Mujahedin reaching the people in

 2    Maline, why did you take that column consisting of those 200 civilians

 3    within a hundred yards of their camp, on the outskirts of Mehurici?

 4       A.   Because I thought that they couldn't seize men from us, from the

 5    Bosnian army, from the police, because we passed along that route going to

 6    Maline.  We passed by the camp and nothing was happening; we didn't see

 7    anything.  We felt that we could pass by.  However, things happened

 8    differently.

 9       Q.   Sir, if you went to Maline to protect the civilians from the

10    Mujahedin, I suggest to you that it was not a reasonable step for you to

11    take to take those very people that you were sent to protect from the

12    Mujahedin right past the Mujahedin camp.

13       A.   That route was taken by civilians, by our troops, and I -- we

14    never had any conflict with them.  To the extent of armed exchanges, there

15    had been no clashes.  So I thought that if the police was escorting the

16    people, that none of them would do anything.  That was the only and

17    shortest route for us to reach Mehurici.  I did not expect them to seize

18    those men from us, because that hadn't happened until then.  They could

19    have come in the dark, and with 10 men, I cannot watch over the whole

20    village.  They could have come under cover of darkness.  And I thought

21    that the best idea would be to take them all together and to guard them

22    and to save their lives.  However, what happened happened.

23       Q.   Thank you, witness.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.

25                          Further Re-examination by Ms. Residovic:

Page 12654

 1       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, when you were describing you were assigned

 2    to the village after combat operations, was that assignment to protect the

 3    civilian population living in that village?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Did you understand that assignment, or rather, how did you

 6    understand it?  Was it protection against all dangers that accompany

 7    combat operations, including the possible appearance of Mujahedin?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   With a group of 10 men in a large village, was it possible to

10    protect those people from all the risks entailed when the front line is

11    nearby?

12       A.   I still believe that I couldn't protect them all.

13       Q.   Answering some questions before about this protection, you said

14    that when you saw the villagers, they were in different moods; some of

15    them were afraid, some were crying, and some were asking you whether there

16    were any Mujahedin around.  This reaction of the civilian population, did

17    it make you have second thoughts about leaving the villagers in the

18    village, if they were so afraid?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   His Honour asked you a question about exchanges.  I will remind

21    you that on page 26, lines 21 to 25, and on page 27, lines 1 to 3, you

22    described your conversation with the Mujahedin who intercepted you.  And

23    as it says in this line, you said:  "I told them that it was not possible

24    for them to take those men," that you were members of the army and that

25    you have to take the whole column to the school in Mehurici.

Page 12655

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   You then said that there was a possibility of an exchange.  This

 3    exchange that you mentioned, in answer to one of the questions, and that

 4    you referred to when talking to the Mujahedin, was that actually an

 5    attempt to persuade the Mujahedin to let you go?

 6       A.   Of course.

 7       Q.   And my last question linked to your knowledge about this event in

 8    Miletici; this was April, or end of April, 1993.  You said that you were

 9    on some front lines.  Could you tell me where the 1st Battalion was

10    stationed, which lines, and how far were they from Mehurici?

11       A.   I don't know exactly what the names of those villages are.  It was

12    a long time ago.  But I know that quite a way from Bila, from a mine, you

13    went through a wood, near a stream, but I can't remember the name.

14       Q.   Was this linked to any -- well, not significant, I can't call it

15    significant when criminals are involved.  Were they defensive actions

16    linked to a terrible event that occurred in the Lasva Valley?

17       A.   Possibly.  I think we were there for four or five days, holding

18    our positions.  We were in trenches.  There was no fighting.  We were just

19    holding on to our positions.

20            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no additional

21    questions.

22            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, just

23    one question for this witness.

24                          Re-Cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

25         Q.   [Interpretation] In answer to a question from the President, you

Page 12656

 1    said that you received your order from the brigade command.  You said that

 2    should our troops succeed in Maline, that you should go there.  You used

 3    that expression,"our troops," a few other times.  When using that

 4    expression, you were referring to members of the 306th Brigade; is that

 5    right?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Sir, you have just

 8    completed your testimony.  Thank you for coming to The Hague and for

 9    contributing to the establishment of the truth by the answers you gave to

10    all the questions put to you.  I wish you a safe journey home, and best

11    wishes for the future.

12            I will adjourn the hearing immediately because we have overstepped

13    our time limit by 10 minutes.  I thank all the participants, and I invite

14    you to come back here for the hearing beginning at 9.00 a.m.

15                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.55 p.m.,

16                          to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

17                          December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.