Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14201

1 Friday, 14 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case

8 number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

9 Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the

11 appearances for the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,

13 Your Honours, counsel and to everyone in and around the courtroom. For

14 the Prosecution, Stefan Waespi, Daryl Mundis, and the case manager, Janet

15 Stewart.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

17 I'll now turn to Defence counsel for their appearances.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

19 behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel, Stefane

20 Bourgon, co-counsel, and Alexis Demirdjian, our legal assistant.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And could we have the

22 appearances for the other Defence team. I'm turning to Mr. Dixon.

23 MR. DIXON: Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of Mr. Kubura

24 today, Rodney Dixon and Mr. Nermin Mulalic. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber greets everyone

Page 14202

1 present, the Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else

2 in the courtroom.

3 Today, Friday, the 14th, I must inform -- or I'd like to inform

4 everyone that the legal officer, Stephanie Godart will be leaving

5 us, and as she has been acting as a go-between between the parties

6 and the Chamber I wanted to inform you of her departure. She'll be

7 leaving today and she'll be replaced in the following days. Once we have

8 decided on who our future legal officer will be. I wanted to inform you

9 of this.

10 In addition, I believe that there are new documents that we have

11 to deal with, and Mr. Bourgon said that he wanted to take the floor to

12 make submissions with regard to these documents. You may take the floor

13 now.

14 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good day,

15 Your Honours. This is an oral motion to amend our list of exhibits,

16 Mr. President. 24th of January was the last time it was amended, but when

17 we met the witness, we expected today, a couple of days ago, he provided

18 us with six documents that aren't included in our list or in the

19 Prosecution's list. These are documents that we weren't able to obtain

20 until now. So we have disclosed these six documents to the Prosecution. I

21 don't believe they will be objecting to our motion. We are requesting

22 that you grant us a lot of to use these documents this morning. These

23 documents are documents from the municipality of Zenica and they relate to

24 today's witness. We have provided a list to the Registrar. Thank you,

25 Mr. President.

Page 14203

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to this motion, are

2 there any objections that the Prosecution has to admitting these

3 documents?

4 MR. WAESPI: We have no objections, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As the Judges don't

6 see why this should present a problem, we take note of the motion and

7 accept it.

8 We will now call the witness into the courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I'd first like

11 to make sure that you are receiving interpretation. If you can hear what

12 I'm saying in your own language, please say so.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I understand you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

15 witness for the Defence. Before you take the solemn declaration, could

16 you tell me your first and last names, your date of birth, and your place

17 of birth.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ramiz Dzaferovic. I was

19 born on the 25th of March, 1959.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the municipality of Visegrad, in

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you currently employed? And

24 if so, what is the nature of your employment?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have my own company, which is --

Page 14204

1 which deals with auditing.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, did you hold a

3 position of any kind? If so, what kind of position, and for which

4 institution did you work?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1990 until the 17th of May,

6 1993, I was the director of a state company. From the 27th of May, 1993,

7 until the 27th of May, 1994, I was the president of the executive

8 authorities in Zenica.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you already

10 testified before in international or national court about the events in

11 your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I've appeared

13 as a witness for a national or international court.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

15 solemn declaration.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down. Before I give

21 the floor to Defence counsel, I would like to provide you with some brief

22 information about the procedure we'll be following. You've been called as

23 a witness for the Defence, and you will first have to answer the questions

24 put to you by Defence counsel, whom you have certainly met already.

25 Once this stage has been completed and we've been told that it

Page 14205

1 should take about three-quarters of an hour, the Prosecution will put

2 questions to you within the framework of what we call the

3 cross-examination.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Once this stage has been

6 concluded, Defence counsel may ask you additional questions that relate to

7 questions put to you in the course of the cross-examination. The three

8 Judges sitting before you, according to the Rules of Procedure, may put

9 questions to you at any time, but to ensure that the proceedings run

10 smoothly, the Judges prefer to wait for the parties to conclude their

11 examination before intervening. You will notice that the questions are of

12 a different kind.

13 When Defence counsel puts questions to you in the course of their

14 examination-in-chief, they must make sure that they don't put leading

15 questions to you. When the Prosecution cross-examines you, they are

16 allowed to put leading questions to you. The Judges sitting before you

17 will put questions to you, the objective of which is to help to establish

18 the truth. The Judges put questions to you to assess the value of your

19 testimony, and not on behalf of either of the parties. In order to do

20 this, they may put questions to you that may not be leading. So roughly

21 speaking, this is the procedure we'll be following.

22 When questions are put to you, the parties might show you

23 documents and ask you to comment on them and ask you whether you can

24 recognise them. This is something that might happen. If you fail to

25 understand a question, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it.

Page 14206












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Page 14207

1 Sometimes the questions can be very long, and one might lose one's

2 bearings. If that's the case, ask the person putting it to you to

3 rephrase the question.

4 We have no written documents concerning your testimony, so your

5 oral answers are extremely important, because that constitutes your

6 testimony. Try to answer the questions as fully as possible and as

7 precisely as possible.

8 I would also like to point out that as you have taken the solemn

9 declaration and said that you will speak the truth, you should not give

10 false testimony. I hope you're fully aware of this fact. And in

11 addition, I would also like to point out that a witness may refuse to

12 answer a question if the witness believes that his answer may cause him

13 problems at a subsequent date, because the answer might provide

14 information that could be used to incriminate the witness. In such

15 exceptional circumstances, we have had no such cases to date, but

16 nevertheless I must point it out, in such exceptional circumstances, the

17 Chamber may compel the witness to answer the question. If this is done,

18 you are granted a form of immunity.

19 This is how we will be proceeding. If you encounter any

20 difficulties, don't hesitate to inform us of the fact. We are here to

21 deal with any difficulties you may run into.

22 I will now give the floor to the Defence, who will commence with

23 their examination-in-chief.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

Page 14208

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dzaferovic. In addition to

2 what the Presiding Judge has just informed you of, I would also like to

3 ask you to make a brief pause when I put a question to you, before

4 answering the question. This will enable the interpreters to interpret

5 what is said and it will enable everyone in the courtroom to follow our

6 exchange. Have you understood me?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, what are you by profession, and could you tell us

9 something about your educational background.

10 A. I graduated -- I have graduated in economy and I'm an auditor. I

11 have about 22 years of professional experience, mostly obtained in

12 financial institutions.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since I'd like to

14 start using documents immediately when examining the witness, I would now

15 like to ask the usher to distribute these documents to the witness, the

16 Trial Chamber, and to my colleagues.

17 Q. You have told the Presiding Judge that you were appointed the

18 president of the executive council of the town of Zenica towards the end

19 of May 1993. Can you please look at document number 1 in the bundle and

20 tell me first what this document represents. And secondly, can you

21 confirm that this indeed is the date when you were appointed to the duty

22 that you've mentioned?

23 A. It is correct that I was appointed by the Presidency of the

24 municipality of Zenica. I was appointed on the 17th of May, and I was

25 given 13 days to select the local government. And it is true that my

Page 14209

1 appointment was finally confirmed on the 29th of May.

2 Q. Where was this published? What kind of document is this? Where

3 were decisions of the War Presidency and other civilian bodies published?

4 A. This is the Official Gazette of the municipality of Zenica, so

5 such decisions were published at all public places, and even on the media.

6 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, could you please look at the first document

7 published in the Official Gazette, and the decision is Decision on the

8 Establishment of the Presidency of the Municipal Assembly of Zenica. Can

9 you please tell me: Who were members of the War Presidency of Zenica?

10 Does this decision reflect what this body was composed of?

11 A. Yes. This is very precise. When this decision was established,

12 before that, there was the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Zenica that

13 was in place, and after that, the Presidency of the municipality of Zenica

14 was established, and it was made up of the president of the municipality,

15 the president of the executive council of the municipality of Zenica, the

16 chief of defence of Zenica, the chief of police station, the commander of

17 the Territorial Defence staff, and presidents of the groups of the

18 parliamentary parties in the municipality of Zenica.

19 After that, the municipality parliament adopted that and the

20 Presidency was authorised by the Municipal Assembly to pass decisions

21 between sessions, and those decisions would then be ratified at the

22 sessions of the assembly.

23 Q. Here, it says that a member of the War Presidency is the commander

24 of the staff of the civilian defence. Tell me: Was the civilian defence

25 a civilian body?

Page 14210

1 A. Yes, it was a civilian body. It had a dual responsibility. By

2 hierarchy, it was responsible to the municipal staff of the Republic of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time, and according to the vertical

4 hierarchy, it was responsible to the municipal parliament, or in other

5 words, to the municipal government of the municipality of Zenica. The

6 same went for the chief of police in Zenica, and the same went for the

7 chief of national defence in Zenica.

8 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, did the commanders of the military structures of

9 the municipal defence staff or military units, pursuant to this decision,

10 were they members of the War Presidency, as a civilian body of authority

11 in Zenica?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Dzaferovic: Did military bodies, or in other

14 words, units, at any point in time when you were the president of the

15 municipal government or a citizen of Zenica, as such, were they ever

16 superior? Did they ever establish military control over Zenica?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you very much. I'm now going to ask you to tell me, Mr.

19 Dzaferovic: What was the situation in Zenica in 1993? What problems did

20 the town of Zenica face at that time, given the war conditions during that

21 period of time?

22 A. When I was appointed the president of the executive body of

23 government of the municipality of Zenica, and at the moment when I took

24 over my duties, Zenica had already been blocked for four months. During

25 that period, Zenica had about 120.000 inhabitants, and it gave shelter to

Page 14211

1 about 47.000 refugees and expelled persons from all areas or

2 municipalities of the then Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In a

3 nutshell, one may say that there were two towns in one town. The 47.000

4 refugees had needs. They had to be accommodated. They had to be fed and

5 clothed and so on and so forth. They were accommodated in 49 camps in the

6 entire territory of the municipality of Zenica.

7 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, can you please look at document number 4, and can

8 you please tell me whether you recognise this document. If you do

9 recognise it, can you please tell us why you brought it here.

10 A. Yes, I do recognise it. At a session of the municipal government

11 which took place on the 4th June, 1993 -- before I say anything else, if

12 you will allow me, I would like to say that the make-up of the municipal

13 government was a multi-ethnic. Out of the 11 members of the municipal

14 government, six were Bosniaks, three were Croats, one was Serb, and one

15 was Slovenian. As I continue answering your questions, I would like to

16 say that all the decisions that were taken during my 14 months of duty,

17 the municipal government was in session every day, and all the decisions

18 in 99 per cent were brought by consensus and ratified first by the

19 Executive Council and then by the Municipal Assembly of Zenica.

20 Since the town at that period was facing a large number of

21 refugees and expelled persons, the Executive Council started drafting a

22 programme aimed at survival. We outlined our needs for food, washing

23 agents, and all the facilities that were necessary for the work of

24 companies in Zenica.

25 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, I asked you to look at conclusion number 4. You

Page 14212












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Page 14213

1 have just told us that there were a lot of refugees in Zenica. Can you

2 please tell us whether the refugees kept on coming. Were you at all in a

3 position to know how many people there were in Zenica at any given point

4 in time?

5 A. During the war, refugees kept on coming from all the areas and

6 municipalities of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Many

7 international organisations attempted to establish the actual situation.

8 However, it was very difficult. Our estimates helped us to establish the

9 factual condition on the ground, when we had to introduce rationing in

10 food. People kept on coming day in and day out. There were 5.600

11 refugees that arrived on one single day, around 1.00 in the night, and

12 they were accommodated in the schools in Zenica. However, at that point

13 in time, the international community was already involved and continued

14 working until the end of February 1994. By that time, they opened about

15 14 camps.

16 Q. Can you please look at document number 3. You started talking

17 about the blockade of Zenica which had lasted for four months when the

18 government embarked on drafting a survival programme. Can you tell

19 me: Do you recognise this document? What is this document about, and

20 what were the problems that Zenica faced at the time when hampered its

21 survival?

22 A. I've already said that the survival programme envisioned all the

23 needs for food, energy sources, and materials for the work of public

24 companies. We wanted to get in touch with international humanitarian

25 organisations, primarily with UNHCR. We tried to seek solutions that

Page 14214

1 would help us to survive this difficult situation. The blockade was

2 getting ever tighter. We tried to centralise all the food that existed at

3 the time in Zenica. These actions were channelled through two channels.

4 First of all, we wanted to provide food for all the local population and

5 the refugees. Most of the food came from the UNHCR. We wanted to

6 centralise all available food and focus it in one place, in the direction

7 for commodity reserves. That was the first activity.

8 We received approval from all the international institutions,

9 including local humanitarian organisations, such as the Red Cross,

10 Caritas, Merhamet, and others.

11 The second activity was aimed at looking at the arable fields that

12 could be used for sowing, and then we wanted to provide mechanisation that

13 could help with that, and we also wanted to look at mills. At that time,

14 everything was haphazard. Nothing went continuously. The energy sources

15 were scarce. Citizens were given coupons for rationed supply, and one of

16 the things we did, we provided them with wood and coal as an alternative

17 energy resource.

18 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, before this Trial Chamber, there is a report by

19 Mr. Thebault dating to May 1993. In his report, he says that during that

20 period of time, only 5 per cent of the required necessities reached

21 Zenica. As the president of the Zenica government, can you tell us what

22 quantities of food were at that time supplied to the citizens? What

23 problems did you face with that regard?

24 A. During that period of time, when we decided to draft this survival

25 programme for the city of Zenica, we thought that this was a security

Page 14215

1 issue more than anything else. We introduced rationed supplies, and all

2 the citizens of Zenica received identical quantities of everything.

3 Together with the UNHCR, we established what one-fifth of the needs would

4 be, one-fifth of the bare necessities for the survival of every citizen.

5 That was 500 grammes of flour per capita. We were aware of the situation

6 that faced both us and the international organisations, which could not

7 enter the town with their convoys. We're talking about the month of

8 September, the 6th or 7th month into the complete blockade of the town.

9 In order to keep peace and order in town, we embarked on this

10 step. However, these were only our estimates. In November 1993, every

11 citizen received approximately 80 grammes of flour. Even that one-fifth

12 that was envisaged for the citizens was reduced, one-tenth. One may say

13 that the food that was used by the citizens of Zenica can be compared with

14 what a mouse would need for its survival.

15 I would like to emphasise before this Trial Chamber that in the

16 month of December, the staple food of our citizens was potato and flour

17 came in very sparse quantities.

18 Q. Can you please look at document number 5, Mr. Dzaferovic. Given

19 the situation that Zenica and all its inhabitants were in, would you say

20 that this is one of the documents by which you tried to draw the attention

21 of the international community to such a difficult situation?

22 A. This is just one in the series of documents. We wanted Mr.

23 Philippe Morillon to visit Zenica. We asked for their attention. We held

24 a press conference, attended by all the representatives of the

25 international community who were there at the time. Mr. Martin Garrod,

Page 14216

1 who was a European monitor in the territory of Zenica at that time, was

2 also there. We asked from the representatives of international

3 organisations to talk to the governments of their respective countries.

4 We wanted Zenica to be officially proclaimed a town under blockade, and we

5 wanted food to be air-dropped to us.

6 Q. Before this Trial Chamber, there is document P181, in which

7 General Garrod describes a meeting that he held with you personally. In

8 this document, he says that at that meeting, it was said that the

9 humanitarian situation was bordering on a total disaster. Zenica had

10 200.000 inhabitants, out of whom 47.000 were refugees. You received 40

11 tonnes of aid a month, which sufficed only for five days' survival of the

12 entire population.

13 Would this part of the report, which describes your conversation

14 with Mr. Garrod, represent a correct description of the situation in

15 Zenica?

16 A. Yes. That was at the moment when we held that conversation.

17 However, things got worse after that. The first humanitarian convoy

18 entered Zenica sometime in February 1994.

19 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, can you please look at document number 7. It's

20 pages 26 and 27. You said that you had organised a conference, an

21 international conference, involving representatives of the international

22 community. I apologise. The pages in question are -- first look at page

23 number 1. Can you tell me if you know who the author of this book is? It

24 says Besim Spahic here?

25 A. He's the president of the Presidency of the municipality of

Page 14217

1 Zenica. He was the presiding [indiscernible] of the parliament.

2 Q. When I asked you to look at pages 26 and 27, and before I put the

3 question to you, can you please tell me whether certain international

4 officials arrived and visited Zenica upon your invitation? If you can

5 remember: Who was it who came and faced the dire situation that you had

6 to face in 1993?

7 A. It is very difficult to remember. However, Mr. Jakovic arrived.

8 He was the American ambassador. And sometime in December as far as I can

9 remember there was the present high commissioner, Lord Paddy Ashdown. He

10 visited the refugee camps in Bandol, as far as I can remember.

11 Q. With regard to this international press conference that you have

12 just mentioned, can you tell me whether it was attended by journalists

13 from the best-known press agencies? Did you tackle the situation that was

14 facing Zenica?

15 A. Yes. At that press conference, we declared that the situation was

16 alarming and that the survival of people was in question. They were

17 threatened. The functioning of business and trade in the city was also

18 threatened. I requested that international organisations were -- in fact

19 not even international organisations could leave Zenica because it was

20 under blockade, and they requested that I, as the president of the

21 executive committee head the convoy, in order to save the town, but they

22 couldn't guarantee security or help their representatives in international

23 humanitarian organisations.

24 Q. On page 19, 20, and 21, have a look at page 19, 20, and 21, and

25 were these in fact -- was this in fact the nature of the exchanges you had

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Page 14219

1 with the international community and the warnings that you gave them?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, as far as this subject is concerned, tell me

4 whether at that time the citizens also came under fire. Was Zenica

5 shelled? Was fire opened? Did people die as a result?

6 A. Well, perhaps we advanced very slightly, but I think much progress

7 was made in terms of security in Zenica. The Executive Committee launched

8 an initiative and the Presidency of the municipality of Zenica adopted

9 this, and the parliament also confirmed it. A committee for human rights

10 was to be formed in June 1993. We suggested that in the committee for

11 human rights, there should be members who were reliable and who would be

12 trusted by all the three constituent peoples. Representatives of the

13 Croatian, Serbian, and Muslim communities should be there. As far as I

14 can remember, that committee was composed of Mr. Jakov Montiljo. He was

15 the president of the committee. And there were members of the clergy.

16 There was Father Radic, who represented the Catholic Church. Then there

17 was the head imam of the Islamic community, Mr. Dautovic, and there was

18 the representative of the Orthodox Church, whose name I cannot remember.

19 Q. Have a look at document number 6, please. Do you recognise this

20 document, and is this the document that you have just been referring to?

21 A. Yes. And let me just add something else. Mr. Drincic, the

22 representative of the Orthodox Church, was also a member. This is one of

23 the documents the purpose of which was to improve the situation in the

24 state and to gain trust, because there was fierce fighting around the

25 municipality of Zenica. As far as I can remember, a conscientious

Page 14220

1 objection was an idea that was accepted. Citizens who didn't want to bear

2 arms could participate in activities to assist the defence of the Republic

3 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, what was the attitude towards all religions in the

5 town? And could you please comment on document number 2.

6 A. The municipal government, in cooperation with the Presidency of

7 Zenica municipality and with the parliament too, took decisions that were

8 important for all the citizens. The purpose of these decisions was to

9 improve the security situation in the town. The Executive Committee also

10 adopted a decision and declared that there should be religious holidays

11 for all three religions. And during these festivities, these people would

12 not have to go to work.

13 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, a minute ago you were speaking about the

14 composition of the Executive Committee, which was at all times

15 multi-ethnic. Tell me: Who was the president of the committee for human

16 rights?

17 A. It was Mr. Jakov Montiljo, who is still alive.

18 Q. What was his nationality?

19 A. Well, he was a Jew.

20 Q. What was the composition of the municipal organs of administration

21 of the entire municipality, and did it in any way threaten the

22 multi-ethnic composition of Zenica, in spite of the fact that you were

23 living in very difficult wartime conditions?

24 A. Well, the composition of the Executive Committee in 1993 was

25 identical to its composition in 1975. As far as I can remember, the

Page 14221

1 number of people employed in the municipality of Zenica was about 240. I

2 think there were about 30 per cent of Croatian representatives, and 70 per

3 cent were Serbs and Bosniaks. There were also Slovenians.

4 Q. Thank you. With regard to the protection of religious rights,

5 religious freedom, please have a look at document 7, page 36, item 2. In

6 the middle, it starts with the words -- at the end of that paragraph it

7 says: "In the course of the war, not a single religious building or place

8 of worship was destroyed." Have a look at the text and can you tell me

9 whether this reflects the truth, whether this reflects the situation in

10 Zenica, and what was your attitude towards religious buildings and members

11 of the clergy?

12 A. Yes, this is correct. At the initiative of the local

13 authorities --

14 Q. I apologise. I was referring to the Bosnian version, page 36,

15 second paragraph. It starts with the words "Mr. Kenney pointed out." So

16 whoever has the English or French version will be able to follow what I

17 have been asking the witness about. It's page 10 in the translation.

18 So could you please tell me, given what it says here -- what is

19 stated here, is this correct, and what was your attitude towards religious

20 buildings and members of the clergy?

21 A. Yes, it's correct. At the initiative of the Executive Committee

22 and in cooperation with representatives of the Catholic Church, with

23 Mr. Radic in particular, we launched an initiative to renovate the

24 monument to Our Lady, which was destroyed in the '50s, and in addition to

25 that request, there was a request from Father Radic. He wanted the

Page 14222

1 building that was adjacent to the Church of St. Ilija -- in fact, there

2 were four or five flats in that building, and he asked the Executive

3 Committee to make those flats available for the security of the

4 institution. The citizens lived in those premises before the war too.

5 We did this too. So about the 15th of August, when the statue of

6 Our Lady was revealed, Father Petar Andjelovic attended that ceremony, and

7 as far as these monstrous lies are concerned, which were very harmful --

8 well, he said that he could testify to the fact that 12 Croats hadn't been

9 hanged there. His presence testified to that fact. The conditions

10 weren't ideal, because there was a war. But this was a fact that couldn't

11 be ignored.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dzaferovic. Tell me whether everything

13 you have just said, since it was a war, tell me whether Zenica was shelled

14 from enemy positions.

15 A. Yes. For that reason, the local authorities created markets and

16 created conditions to sell goods in enclosed areas. As far as I remember,

17 the town market, which had a capacity for about 700 to a thousand men, if

18 that market hadn't been relocated, I can claim with full responsibility

19 that there would have been a massacre. But thankfully, that didn't

20 happen, given what the municipal authorities did at that time.

21 Q. If I have understood you correctly, the market in the town was

22 shelled from enemy positions.

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Another brief question: Since you said that

25 there was the security issue, et cetera, did you encounter problems of

Page 14223

1 theft, and together with the civilian and military organs, did you

2 establish a form of cooperation to deal with that problem, to the extent

3 it was possible, given the conditions in Zenica? Were there any policies

4 pursued by the civilian and military authorities to crack down on all

5 forms of crime in Zenica?

6 A. Yes. A committee was formed in Zenica for the security of the

7 town. It was composed of all the representatives, all local and regional

8 representatives. It was composed of organs responsible to the Presidency

9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the president of the municipal court, of the

10 high court, the representative of the MUP, of the Ministry of the

11 Interior, representative of the ABiH, or rather, the 3rd Corps; a

12 representative of the committee for human rights. There were many

13 problems. The town was under a blockade, and there was the problem of

14 food. There was the fight for survival.

15 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, could you please tell me whether the Executive

16 Committee also had the problem of controlling foreigners. Was it

17 impossible for them to control foreigners? And did you issue orders or

18 assign tasks stating that this issue had to be dealt with?

19 A. Yes. The Executive Committee in Zenica adopted a conclusion and

20 proposed to the Presidency in Zenica and to the parliament that this

21 conclusion be adopted and that certain measures be taken. As far as I can

22 remember, on the 17th of October, 1993, the Executive Committee proposed a

23 conclusion. And since the situation in Zenica was alarming, given the

24 presence of certain individuals in Zenica or given the fact that certain

25 individuals were passing through Zenica, individuals in uniform who were

Page 14224












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Page 14225

1 abusing insignia, who were falsely [Realtime transcript read in error

2 "forcefully"] identifying themselves, the judicial authorities weren't

3 functioning properly, the organs of prosecution weren't functioning

4 properly, et cetera.

5 So we came to the conclusion that human rights were threatened to

6 such an extent that they might just be wiped out, and the functioning of

7 Zenica was at risk. In order to improve the situation, since we respected

8 the idea that responsibilities should be shared, we requested that the MUP

9 establish or obtain information on foreigners in Zenica, on foreigners

10 entering and leaving Zenica. We requested that the ABiH, or rather, the

11 3rd Corps, ensure that members of the military didn't pass through the

12 town with their rifles. We asked the judicial authorities and organs of

13 prosecution to do everything they could to improve the situation in the

14 town. And I was talking about this period a minute ago.

15 In October, citizens were receiving the minimum of food necessary

16 to survive. And again, not even a mouse could have survived on such

17 rations. And these efforts resulted in improvement in the situation.

18 Q. Tell me: Whose responsibility were the foreigners, and who did

19 you ask to record their movement?

20 A. We asked the Ministry of the Interior to do this, and they're

21 responsible to the Ministry of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 Q. I apologise. Just for the sake of the transcript, there is the

23 word "forcefully" on page 20, line 23. But the witness said "falsely." So

24 could that be improved. The word was not "forcefully" but "falsely."

25 My last question, Mr. Dzaferovic, concerns the fact that in Zenica

Page 14226

1 there was a building that is referred to in the indictment in this case.

2 As president of the Executive Committee, did you ever hear about the issue

3 of the music school or did you obtain any information in an indirect way?

4 A. Yes. When I was interviewed by a radio station, this issue was

5 raised. I established contact with the 3rd Corps about this, and they

6 said that this concerned the military police of the 7th Muslim. And in

7 the 14 months that I occupied the post of the president of the Executive

8 Committee, I intervened on two or three occasions. I was seen by the

9 president, and as president, in fact, I saw about 5.600 citizens. There

10 was someone called Mr. Jonjic, or rather, his mother who came to see me.

11 She complained that her son had disappeared. I told the chief of cabinet

12 to check this through the security of the 7th Muslim. I was told that he

13 was in the penal and correctional facility, in the KP Dom, which was where

14 people had been convicted were serving their sentence.

15 And then there was the case of Mr. Viskovic, whose wife also came

16 to see me to ask me to find where he was, find out where he was. And then

17 acting directly, I checked the information and found out that he had

18 previously been the chief of the security service. That was before the

19 aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I found out that he would

20 be released after he had been interviewed.

21 Q. How far is the music school from your office? Did you have to

22 pass that way? Did you ever personally see anybody being brought in or

23 ill-treated in the school?

24 A. I already tried to explain this to the representatives of the

25 international community. For example, Mr. Martin Garrod asked me the same

Page 14227

1 question. Music school is a very small facility, some hundred metres away

2 from the municipality, where my office was, where the offices of the

3 Executive Council were. He also said that people were being taken there

4 and ill-treated. To answer your question: The music school is in the

5 very close vicinity of the higher court, of the municipal court, of the

6 Croatian hall, of the bank, the municipality building, the national

7 theatre. It is in the very centre of the town of Zenica. And by the

8 logic of things, if things like that had been happening, Zenica, which has

9 83 local communes, this could not have happened. I am not talking about

10 why people were being taken anywhere. I did not seek to establish that,

11 because it was not my duty. The responsibility of the local government

12 was to provide the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina with materiel and

13 technical assistance and help them with mobilising people.

14 I believe that this is just nothing but terrible propaganda.

15 Q. Did you ever visit the KP Dom? Did you ever establish the

16 conditions that your co-citizens were kept in there?

17 A. Ten days into my mandate, I went there with my colleagues. We

18 visited the KP Dom. And finally, at the end of the day, this institution

19 was supplied from the direction for commodity reserves. I spoke directly

20 with Mr. Jonjic. I even remember this conversation. I knew this person

21 personally. And he told me that he had had problems in the armed

22 formation that he belonged to, that he was expelled. And he said that he

23 was not good for any of the sides. He was exchanged some ten days later.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dzaferovic.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

Page 14228

1 questions for this witness.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm turning towards the

3 Prosecution for their cross-examination, unless Mr. Dixon has questions.

4 Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.

5 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. There is one matter that we

6 do wish to clarify. It might simply be a translation issue.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Dixon:

8 Q. Sir, if you could recall at line 4 of page 22, you mentioned that

9 you will saw about 5.600 citizens in your capacity. Could you confirm

10 that in fact when you mentioned that figure, you were talking about seeing

11 those persons for various reasons, not only in relation to prison or

12 detention facilities? Is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes. During those 14 months, I saw about 5.600 people, and

14 I believe that this can be checked in the documents of the municipality.

15 They came to me with different issues. In 99 per cent, they asked me,

16 without food, when the convoys were arriving, whether they would be able

17 to survive. They talked to me about their fear of helplessness and

18 despair.

19 MR. DIXON: Thank you for that clarification, sir.

20 Your Honour, we have no further questions.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the

22 floor.

23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzaferovic. First of all, I followed carefully

Page 14229

1 what you initiated as president of the Executive Council, and it was very

2 interesting to see that in tab 2, the conclusions you initiated, or you

3 made, 31st of May, 1993, the first number, when you regulated these

4 holidays and that you took account of all religious groups, it's almost

5 like the UN holidays we have here, so the different Catholic and Muslim

6 holidays. So that was very interesting to see that again.

7 But let me go back to what you said just now about the music

8 school. First, I think you acknowledged that you were told by

9 international observers, I believe you mentioned Mr. Garrod, that there

10 were mistreatments in the music school. Is that correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So what did he tell you?

13 A. I had ongoing contacts with all the representatives. I can, for

14 example, mention Mr. La Mota, Mr. Larry, and other European monitors. They

15 also heard that allegedly people were being ill-treated in this music

16 school. I tried to explain a while ago where the music school was. On

17 any given day, at least a thousand people passed by that school. I myself

18 passed by it. I was looking at it from my office. Believe me, there are

19 documents in the municipality of Zenica, and people who worked with me,

20 all the secretaries who participated in the work. And it is not only

21 owing to our work, but -- and not only to my work, but to our national

22 team. I told Mr. Garrod: Why don't we take a straw unannounced to see

23 who we will find there?

24 He refused to do that. In 14 months, I had only two

25 interventions. The first one was by a woman, whom I personally knew,

Page 14230












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Page 14231

1 about my neighbour, whom I personally knew, and also there was another

2 intervention by a woman whom I didn't know personally, but I did check to

3 see what was going on with her son, because I also have a mother, and I

4 knew what this was -- how she must have felt.

5 Q. We heard evidence in this case, and I quote it: "The whole city

6 was rife with rumours about the music school, the music school being a

7 detention camp."

8 That's Judge Adamovic. And there was other information from ICRC,

9 ECMM, UNHCR, about what happened there. And you are saying that's all

10 terrible propaganda?

11 A. Yes. This is what I say. You're mentioning Mr. Adamovic. He was

12 a military judge. We had constant contacts, and he never said anything to

13 me about that. We were even friends after that. I claim with full

14 responsibility that this was not a camp. People may have been

15 interrogated there, but this was not a camp. This is a facility in the

16 very centre of Zenica, across the road from the music school there is a

17 supreme court, where there were Croats, Bosnians, and Serbs working.

18 Across the road from there was the Croatian hall, which was secured by the

19 Croatian police. There is also a commercial bank and the new school --

20 the new building of the municipality, the old building of the

21 municipality, there is a theatre. So on a daily basis, through the park

22 where that building was, a thousand people walked. And if that had been

23 happening on a large scale, this would be known. I worked with my

24 colleagues until very late in the night, sometimes until 2.00 or 3.00. We

25 had 298 sessions during the four [as interpreted] months that I was in my

Page 14232

1 position. Sometimes we had two sessions a day. So if all this had been

2 happening, we would have known that.

3 As I sit here today before this Trial Chamber, I don't know

4 whether I could have worked better than I did. We worked -- we did

5 whatever we could. The objection of consciousness is now being introduced

6 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they have been talking about that for two

7 years. But there is nothing I can say about that with regard my work and

8 the work of my colleagues during that time.

9 Q. Yes. I'm not disputing that. But if it was so public, so

10 publicly accessible, the music school, why was the ICRC prevented from

11 visiting that school? Can you give us an explanation? That would have

12 been the best way to refute all this propaganda, to allow the ICRC to see

13 that facility. Why wasn't that happening, Mr. Dzaferovic?

14 A. I have never heard this before. I am prepared to face the person

15 who told you that, who told you that the ICRC was prevented from entering

16 that facility. Forty international organisations, Mr. Larry, Mr. -- let

17 me not mention any more names. They all spoke to me. I personally

18 offered to go there with them. It would have taken us five minutes to go

19 there. I personally offered them to go and visit that facility. The

20 military police was there, so I do not exclude the possibility that people

21 were being interrogated there. However, during the 14 months that I was

22 there, when I was appointed the president of the Executive Council, I had

23 hope. I showed courage when I introduced rationing of food. And people

24 were absolutely certain that they would all receive the same quantity of

25 food. The questionnaire that was used to establish how many people there

Page 14233

1 were in Zenica, you will not find any questions about the ethnic

2 affiliation of the citizens of Zenica, and you can find that document in

3 the archives of the municipality of Zenica. I assure you.

4 MR. WAESPI: The witness --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

6 MR. DIXON: I apologise to interrupt, but in light of the answer

7 that the witness has given to my learned friend's question, I don't know

8 if he's going to take this any further, but he has made an allegation that

9 the Red Cross was not permitted to enter the music school. And I do wish

10 to know on what basis he makes such an allegation. Because from our

11 reading of the evidence to date, there's no such evidence before

12 Your Honours that the Red Cross could not enter the music school. And the

13 witness has now confirmed that he has no knowledge of that fact either.

14 Thank you, Your Honours.

15 MR. WAESPI: Yes. That was my next point, and Mr. Dixon has

16 document P371 in front of him. And Your Honours, it's annex C. And I

17 would like the witness to have a look at that, and perhaps it could be

18 placed on the ELMO.

19 Q. And Witness, unfortunately, we don't have a B/C/S version of it,

20 but it's very short, and I can read it out to you.

21 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, it's an annex to a report by Charles

22 McLeod, and this one page, and I'll read the title and the date. It dates

23 7th May, 1993. Title: "Meeting with Jean-Luc Noverraz head of the ICRC,

24 Zenica." "Comment: Since access to prisons was a major concern and ECMM

25 was making progress as a result of its strong contacts, I wanted to make

Page 14234

1 sure that we were doing -- that what we were doing was coordinated with

2 ICRC. The key points from a short and friendly meeting are as follows:,"

3 next paragraph, "I asked what access ICRC have to prisoners in Zenica. He

4 said that they only have access to the main prison, not to the MUP or

5 music school."

6 That's document number 1.

7 Q. Let me continue with a second document, and this is document P670,

8 by Mr. Delic. And I'll just quote from it, P670. And unfortunately, I

9 haven't prepared that, but because this seems to be an issue, I would like

10 to support the ICRC documentation or the reference with another one coming

11 from the ABiH. It dates Sarajevo, 14th August, 1993, so about three

12 months after this first document. And it's signed by the commander of the

13 ABiH, Rasim Delic. The heading is "to BH army, 3rd Corps command." First

14 paragraph: "The International Committee of the Red Cross mission in

15 Sarajevo has drawn our attention to the problems that their delegates are

16 facing in the Zenica area."

17 Next paragraph: "According to the ICRC, as part of their routine

18 prison visits, the Zenica ICRC has attempted on several occasions to visit

19 the prisoners, who fall under the jurisdiction of the 7th Brigade of the

20 BH army, 3rd Corps, and are detained in the prison in the former secondary

21 music school in Zenica. Except for one visit in May 1993, the ICRC has

22 constantly been denied access to the prisoners detained with the 7th

23 Brigade."

24 Q. Doesn't that establish from two different sources, one even the

25 army of the ABiH, that they had, except for one occasion sometime between

Page 14235

1 May and August 1993, no access to the music school?

2 A. I have no information of that kind. They didn't contact me

3 personally. But what you have just read out about the camp, I don't know

4 if there's more than 40 square metres of available space on those

5 premises. So what kind of a camp could that have been?

6 Q. Have you ever entered the music school?

7 A. I have. We visited the music school, I and Mr. Brane Ivanovic and

8 Huso Smailovic. We saw two policemen there, two military policemen, and

9 the commander, who was ill and he was in the second part of that building.

10 A clinic was also located in that part of the building.

11 Q. What was the commander's name?

12 A. His name was Halid Brazina. He was a deputy commander.

13 Q. And deputy commander of what?

14 A. He was assistant commander for logistics in the 7th Brigade.

15 Q. Now, you mentioned an acquaintance of yours, Mr. Viskovic. Is

16 that Mr. Anto Viskovic?

17 A. Anto Viskovic, yes, the former chief of the CSB at the security

18 services centre before the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19 Q. Now, do you know what MOS means, M-O-S?

20 A. I wouldn't know. Given the propaganda that was spread throughout

21 the war, obviously all Bosniaks were considered to be members of the

22 Muslim forces, of the Mujahedin, of the MOS, et cetera, et cetera. So

23 this is a term that many abused, in terms of providing military

24 information on the ABiH.

25 Q. Now, did the MOS ever guard your building, your apartment

Page 14236












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Page 14237

1 building, in that relevant time, while you were president of the Executive

2 Council of Zenica?

3 A. I don't know why they would have guarded my building. I think

4 that information is false. I had a security that had been officially

5 assigned to me, a municipal security, the civilian police provided

6 security for me and for others in the municipality. Throughout the

7 wartime period, I moved around freely, as an ordinary citizen.

8 Q. Let me just read out what Mr. Viskovic --

9 MR. DIXON: Sorry, Your Honour. Before my learned friend does

10 that, if I could intervene. I believe --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

12 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I believe he's going to read

13 from a statement of Mr. Viskovic, which was never disclosed to the

14 Defence, and I believe that this is a statement which the Defence have

15 only received for the first time very recently, in fact, today. This is a

16 witness who has not testified before the Tribunal, and this statement, in

17 our submission, should not be allowed to be put to the witness. It's not

18 a statement that the witness has made, to seek to cross-examine him on his

19 credibility or to refresh his memory, but it's a statement of another

20 witness who is not before the Tribunal. So in our submission, the

21 Prosecution should only be allowed to put to the witness questions about

22 his meetings and interactions with Mr. Viskovic or relatives of him, and

23 not ask him questions about statements that were made by the witness, in a

24 statement which was taken as long ago as 2001. Thank you, Your Honours.

25 MR. WAESPI: I could briefly respond.

Page 14238

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 MR. WAESPI: As far as I know the Rules about cross-examination in

3 this place, and perhaps elsewhere, is that I can certainly test the

4 credibility of a witness with any credible, we believe, credible

5 information we have. I'm allowed to put that to him, and he can say it's

6 true or it's not true. And we have no obligation to disclose these

7 statements. It's not Rule 68. And it wasn't a Prosecution witness who

8 would testify. So under the disclosure Rules, we need not disclose it. I

9 did it as a courtesy last night, to one Defence team, and to Mr. Dixon

10 this morning. But I'm certainly allowed to put these allegations to this

11 witness and see what he has to say in terms of credibility.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as this issue is

13 concerned, the Trial Chamber has already rendered its decision, with

14 regard to whether the Prosecution can use documents that haven't been

15 tendered into evidence. It suffices to consult the transcript, but I

16 think it's already been said that if the Prosecution wants to present a

17 new document, they should disclose this document to the Defence at least

18 24 hours in advance, so that the Defence can state his position in good

19 time.

20 We also said that if it's a matter of verifying the credibility of

21 a witness, the parties could use documents of all kinds. That was the

22 gist of our decision.

23 It's half past 10.00. We, the Judges, will discuss the issue

24 again. We've already decided on it, but it's always useful to discuss

25 such problems. And we will resume at about 5 to 11.00, unless there is

Page 14239

1 something the Prosecution would like to say before we leave. I'll give

2 you the floor now again.

3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Just to clarify: We don't

4 want to use this document as an exhibited. I just would like to read out

5 a small portion of a witness statement of a person Mr. Dzaferovic knows.

6 Thank you.

7 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, sorry. If I could just clarify one

8 point.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

10 MR. DIXON: This is a statement which is actually not in evidence.

11 That was the point that I was trying to make. And I have no objection to

12 my learned friend cross-examining the witness about what happened in a

13 particular meeting or where he lived. But I fail to see the purpose of

14 putting a portion of a statement which is not in evidence, either through

15 92 bis or through the witness coming to testify. Your Honours would not

16 have seen this statement. It's not going to be part of the record. And

17 there is, in our submission, no purpose in doing it. My learned friend is

18 free to cross-examine him about what happened and to put various

19 assertions to him, but indeed not, and he should not show the statement to

20 him.

21 Thank you, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now adjourn and we will

23 resume at 5 to 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

Page 14240

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume. As I said,

2 we have deliberated about the issue again. Naturally, we confirm our

3 previous oral decision, and we will allow the Prosecution to refer to the

4 document, the contents of which we are not familiar with, but the document

5 won't be tendered into evidence. As far as testing the witness's

6 credibility is concerned, the Prosecution may use a document that they

7 have.

8 You may read the part of the document that you wanted to read.

9 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, I just wanted to read out one paragraph. It's

11 five lines of what Mr. Anto Viskovic told an investigator about the

12 conversation related to you. "During this period, I was effectively under

13 house arrest. The building I was living in was watched by members of the

14 MOS 24 hours a day. I complained about this to Ramiz Dzaferovic,

15 president of the Executive Board of Zenica municipality. Dzaferovic also

16 had an apartment in the same building, and he told me not to worry, saying

17 'the MOS are there to protect me as much as they are there to guard

18 you.'"

19 Do you have to make a comment about that?

20 A. I can comment on that. It's true that it's door-to-door. There

21 is a building, and I think Mr. Viskovic lived on the third floor. We were

22 friends and we see each other today as well. Even when he left Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina after the war, he sent a parcel to my children.

24 As far as securing the entrance to the building in which I lived

25 is concerned, well, that is not correct. That information is not correct.

Page 14241

1 I had security that was provided for me in the municipality where I

2 worked. I didn't have my own personal security officers. I didn't know

3 who was on duty providing security in the municipal building in Zenica.

4 But it was the police, or some policemen, who were engaged in providing

5 the security, and that's the truth.

6 Q. So you didn't say these words, as quoted by Mr. Viskovic?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Let me finish --

9 A. We spoke about other subjects, but that's not something he told

10 me. Because -- I apologise, but the building I lived in was a building in

11 which there were Serbs and Croats, and across the road from that building

12 there were other functionaries. I, as the president of the Executive

13 Committee, can confirm, and all other citizens can confirm, that I moved

14 around in a normal manner, although I had certain unpleasant situations.

15 I was even physically assaulted, not by Croats but by members of the

16 Bosniak community. Children were maltreated, et cetera.

17 Q. Let me finish with the jobs you had, apart from your position in

18 the Executive Council. I believe you responded to a question by

19 His Honour Judge Antonetti that you were the director of a public company

20 before you became president. What company was that?

21 A. It's the textile company, Kimo, Zenica.

22 Q. Was it producing textiles, clothes?

23 A. Yes. Yes. Clothes, sports clothes. And later, military

24 uniforms.

25 Q. During the wartime, it was producing military uniforms?

Page 14242












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Page 14243

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. That was quite a profitable enterprise, I take it.

3 A. No. That company was mobilised by the region to defend the

4 country, and throughout the war it worked for defence purposes, right up

5 until the conflict with the HVO, and it continued working after the

6 conflict. Because the company was a multi-ethnic one, and when I left the

7 company, Akrapovic, Jakob became the director and he still is, that post

8 in Zenica. That was the situation.

9 Q. So when you were director, was it a good personal enterprise for

10 you? Did you profit from being the director of that company, financially?

11 A. How would I profit, since there was a war? The purpose was to

12 assist in defending the country. And when it was mobilised by

13 governmental organs, material that wasn't appropriate was used to make

14 uniforms. Uniforms were made out of blankets, tent material, ordinary

15 textile, et cetera. Up until July 1992, there were about 400 workers.

16 But later, because of the war, there were about two brigades working

17 there. That would be between 120 and 150 people.

18 Q. Did you ever hold office after your Presidency over the Executive

19 Council in Sarajevo, as chief of the federation tax department?

20 A. No. After I left the post of president of the Executive

21 Committee, I moved to the Kimo company again and remained there until June

22 1996. I was then elected as president of the republican administration

23 for revenue in Bosnia and Herzegovina. After the Dayton Agreement had

24 been signed, I was elected as the general director of the general revenue

25 administration, and we organised the work of the federal revenue

Page 14244

1 administration. And according to the Dayton Agreement, this included the

2 revenue from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I remained in that post until

3 the year 2000. I was then replaced by the High Representative, Mr.

4 Wolfgang Petritsch. There was no factual basis for this replacement. My

5 human rights were then violated and this is something I can claim before

6 this Chamber. The international convention on human rights wasn't

7 respected, and two years later, I think that was sometime in August, I was

8 released. But there is such legally valid decision.

9 Q. But you, in fact, when you say you were replaced, you were

10 basically fired by Mr. Wolfgang Petritsch, on grounds, and I quote, that

11 you "failed to ensure the highest standards of non-political

12 professionalism, thereby undermining the objectives of the Brussels peace

13 implementation council and public confidence in your agency and in the

14 economic reform process."

15 And in the official letter you received, there was even

16 allegations of corruption. Do you remember having received a letter from

17 Mr. Wolfgang Petritsch stating those reasons for your removal?

18 A. Yes. I received that decision on the 27th of February, 2000.

19 These explanations were provided and according to the explanations,

20 certain things were alleged. But the allegations weren't the real reason

21 for replacing me. The High Representative, and the public in Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, fully aware of the real reasons for replacing me, but this is

23 not something I would like to talk about. With the leave of the Chamber,

24 I'd like to say: How can a man be replaced if there is no normal

25 procedure followed and if an official isn't interviewed about this? I was

Page 14245

1 a federal functionary, but I received such a document, in which I was to

2 be replaced, and it was stated that, allegedly, an accusation had been

3 confirmed, an accusation from the federal court. And this was quite

4 false. I had never been convicted, and an indictment had never been

5 brought against me at the federal court. But Wolfgang Petritsch is fully

6 aware of the real reason for which I was replaced.

7 Q. When you say that Mr. Wolfgang Petritsch was fully aware of the

8 real reasons, were you ever, by him or his successor, I believe was

9 Mr. Ashdown, whom I believe you said you met as well, reinstated into your

10 position?

11 A. No, I didn't even make such a request. But if you insist, I can

12 tell you why.

13 Q. And were you also banned, in the same letter you received, did it

14 say that you were banned from holding public office, and did that remain

15 in place until today?

16 A. Yes, and it is in place now too. There was no trial, no procedure

17 of any kind was followed. My rights were violated, and unfortunately, in

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, I am now a second-class citizen. You, as an

19 expert, will be able to see, on the basis of that decision, that no

20 procedure of any kind was followed, and certain things weren't respected.

21 There were certain allegations made. I was appointed as the general of

22 the federation tax department, where I found 40 people, and I unified both

23 entities and formed an institution that had 1.400 workers.

24 Q. But you would agree with me that the Dayton Agreement empowered

25 the High Representative to take certain steps, steps like this, removal of

Page 14246

1 senior officers in Bosnia? That was within his mandate?

2 A. I'm not aware of such authorisation. His role was to assist, not

3 to remove people, not to cut people's heads off.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe it would be best to

5 stop there, because his testimony doesn't have to do with the public

6 finance or the Dayton Agreement, but it has to do with what the

7 municipality did in respect of the refugees. So it would be best to focus

8 on the purpose of this witness's testimony.

9 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. It was my last question.

10 We believe it affects his credibility. The allegations, as it states, I

11 don't know more. The witness, I'm sure, knows more. But as it states on

12 that decision the witness referred to, corruption was mentioned. I

13 believe that's important for Your Honours to know. And I have that

14 decision here. It's taken from the Internet. It's public. I don't know

15 whether it's necessary. It's available for Your Honours if you want it.

16 But I would not seek to tender it at this moment. Thank you,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll now give the

19 floor to Defence counsel, if they have additional questions to put to the

20 witness.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Although you quite rightly pointed out that the questions put to the

23 witness were not appropriate, given the role of the witness today, since

24 the Prosecution has mentioned the Kimo company the witness worked in, and

25 since they mentioned the charges on the basis of which the High

Page 14247

1 Representative decided to replace this witness, the witness was replaced

2 for corruption. I just have two questions.

3 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

4 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, because of not having paid tax, were proceedings

5 instituted against you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was the situation?

8 A. I was released, and it would be good to have the judgement here.

9 Q. And you haven't been convicted of anything, and this is --

10 although it states the contrary in the decision of the High

11 Representative?

12 A. Yes. I've never been convicted. I wouldn't be able to perform my

13 duties as an auditor. The document states that no one can work as an

14 auditor if a person has been convicted.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Let's go back to some questions that my

16 learned colleague put to you earlier on. You were asked about a Red Cross

17 visit to the music school. You said that the International Committee of

18 the Red Cross never contacted you. Tell me: If they had contacted you,

19 would you have done everything you could have done to provide them with

20 access to the music school or any other buildings?

21 A. Yes, naturally. I received over 200 representatives of

22 international organisations while I was in office. I suggested that we go

23 to certain buildings they wanted to visit.

24 Q. On the basis of documents that you were shown by my colleague, you

25 can see that it states that they in fact visited the music school on one

Page 14248












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Page 14249

1 occasion, in May. If someone had already visited the building, was there

2 any reason, while you were the president of the Executive Committee, to

3 prevent someone from visiting the building, again, if they wanted to visit

4 it?

5 A. Well, as I said, I've already mentioned how many guests or

6 representatives I received.

7 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, in the same document that you were shown by the

8 Prosecution, P371, there were a lot of annexes. In annex D of that

9 document, which is a report on inter-ethnic violence in Vitez, Busovaca,

10 and Zenica, in annex D, reference is made to a meeting with

11 Hadzihasanovic, the commander of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH. With regard

12 to access to the music school, this document says the following: "Access

13 to the music school is not problematic, but it is first necessary to make

14 a telephone call."

15 As far as you know, and on the basis of your knowledge of

16 Mr. Hadzihasanovic, could you testify before this Trial Chamber whether

17 Mr. Hadzihasanovic would have provided anyone access to all buildings that

18 belonged to the ABiH?

19 MR. WAESPI: Objection. That's pure speculation whether he can

20 answer what Mr. Hadzihasanovic would have done.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this isn't a matter

24 of speculation. I'm reading out a sentence from the Prosecution's

25 document, and General Hadzihasanovic says that access to the music school

Page 14250

1 is not a problem. And since the witness has stated that he knows

2 General Hadzihasanovic, I'm asking him to say whether the general would

3 have always granted such access. It's not a matter of speculation.

4 A. I believe that Mr. Hadzihasanovic would have granted such access.

5 I had contact with him on a number of occasions, and as far as joint

6 cooperation with concerned, and as far as defence of the country is

7 concerned, if he couldn't attend, someone from the 3rd Corps always

8 attended such meetings.

9 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, in the document P371, drafted by the humanitarian

10 section of the European monitors, in fact it was drafted by Charles

11 McLeod, there were numerous documents. First there's a report on events

12 and notes on the reports and then there are numerous annexes, one of which

13 has been shown by my learned colleague. I also read out just one sentence

14 from another annex. Since at that time you were the president of the

15 Executive Committee, I would just like to read out something from the

16 report, something that was established in conversation with numerous

17 people. And could you then tell me whether this report reflects the

18 situation in Zenica at that time.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. Before I give

20 the floor to the Prosecution, who would like to raise an objection,

21 Defence counsel would like the witness to say what he thinks about a

22 document drafted by Mr. McLeod. But the slight problem, the minor problem

23 that we have is that he is not familiar with this document.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I referred to

25 document P371, a Prosecution document. It could be shown to the witness

Page 14251

1 right now. I could read out the text. It's one page. And this is a

2 document that the Prosecution used a while ago when cross-examining the

3 witness.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecution. Before I

5 give the floor to the Prosecution, the Defence counsel is saying that you

6 have produced a document in the course of your cross-examination of the

7 witness. The document is P371. And Defence counsel, when re-examining

8 the witness, would like to put a question to the witness that is in direct

9 connection with the document. What is the objection you would like to

10 state?

11 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. It's not technically an

12 objection, but it's a huge document, so before she asks him or including

13 in her question if she could mention the annex, because there are several

14 annexes. So we can have a look at it.

15 And the second point is: Because it's such a big document, having

16 various notes of meetings over time, I don't think it's appropriate just

17 to question him in redirect on all these things, only on issues which I

18 have raised. That would be my objection. So before I know which part of

19 the document she is referring to, I cannot really object.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. Could

21 you tell us the part of the document that you intend to present, because

22 we read it on several occasions and it's a fairly lengthy document. So

23 which portion of it do you have in mind, do you wish to ask him about?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as I've already

25 stated, this is a lengthy document, P371, which was put before the witness

Page 14252

1 by the Prosecutor, gives me the right to use each portion of that document

2 too. There is a main report, which is to be found at the beginning of the

3 document, and it is one page long. And I'd like to put that main report

4 to the witness, once all the discussions were over, what the international

5 community thought.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Go ahead.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Dzaferovic, I'm going to read this slowly for the

9 interpretation. It is a report on the events in Vitez and Zenica. The

10 date is April 1993. "After the events in Vitez and Zenica in the second

11 half of April, I went to the region to talk to the leading members of both

12 communities there. My object was to learn what had happened and to

13 convince both sides that they should not allow this to be repeated,

14 whatever the reasons might be for that. Since my report is a fairly

15 lengthy one, I shall briefly present my thoughts on the matter. The day

16 is the 16th of April, and the Croats in Vitez started a continuous attack

17 against the Muslim villages around Vitez and their attack on Stari Vitez,

18 part of the town inhabited by a majority Muslim population."

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Prosecution.

20 MR. WAESPI: [Previous translation continues] ... fail to see why

21 Defence counsel is reading this document. It's in evidence. It's

22 evidence. And if the witness has something to add to a specific thing

23 which arose out of my cross-examination, I have no problem with it.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. However, she is reading

25 it, because the witness hasn't got it in front of his eyes. So -- and he

Page 14253

1 will be better able to follow it in his own language. And of course what

2 is being read out is being interpreted. So he will know what the document

3 is about and will be able to give us his opinion of it. Otherwise, we

4 could have just placed the document in front of him, translated in B/C/S.

5 But to save time, and in view of all the other circumstances, you can

6 continue reading the document. Because anyway, it's the Judges who will

7 decide what weight to give to the document. You're going to exchange your

8 arguments, but we shall, of course, draw our own conclusions. Please go

9 ahead, proceed.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] "At the same time, they arrested

11 13 prominent members of the Muslim community who were also prominent

12 citizens of Vitez. Two of them were killed by firearms while being

13 arrested, two were released, and two still remain in gaol. The strongest

14 attack was the attack on Ahmici when 90 per cent of the Muslim houses were

15 destroyed and more than 100 civilians killed, all -- of which many were

16 burnt in their houses alive. At the same time, the Croats tried to

17 displace the Muslims from Zenica and the surrounding villages in order to

18 justify the expulsion of the Muslims from Vitez. As a result of the

19 propaganda waged and the people in Vitez listened to, many Croats did

20 indeed decide to leave their homes. And most of the Croats returned to

21 their houses in Zenica municipality. There was some destruction of

22 property, but the authorities are working to provide greater security and

23 confidence. The Muslim population in Vitez municipality is now

24 concentrated in Stari Vitez, which resembles a minute version of the

25 Warsaw ghetto, and in Kruscica, a village to the south of Vitez, that is

Page 14254












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Page 14255

1 equally cut off. The same is true of Busovaca."

2 Mr. President, in view of the objection, I have just read

3 two-thirds of the report. The Court has it in their documents, in their

4 files. So to avoid having fresh arguments put forward in objection, tell

5 me, Mr. Dzaferovic, please:

6 Q. Are these the facts as you know them from that period?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before the witness is allowed to

8 answer, the Prosecution has the floor.

9 MR. WAESPI: No word today was uttered, certainly not by me, about

10 the events in Vitez. And I've said before, it's a big document, it's

11 several annexes which have the same author, but aren't linked to each

12 other. I simply don't see why in re-examination whole documents which are

13 already in evidence are read out. And he was the mayor of Zenica, not of

14 Vitez. I simply cannot see the relevance of reading this document.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead, madam, with

16 respect to relevance.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I already read out

18 the portions relating to Zenica, and this one-page report, which is the

19 main report, does not mention in a single word either the music school or

20 the mistreatment in Zenica or anything else along those lines. And after

21 all, the conversations and discussions that took place, this was the

22 conclusion made by the European observers, and that is what I wanted to

23 tie up with the question that I asked the witness and his testimony. I

24 don't think we need waste more time on that now.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So that was the

Page 14256

1 conclusion for the witness. But what we would like to know, Witness, is:

2 You've just heard this read out. Do you have any comments to make? And

3 then I'll give the floor to the Prosecution, having heard the witness.

4 Do you have any comments to make on what has just been read out to

5 you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no comment. It's pure fact.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. No comments, then.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. And now my last question. My colleague showed you a document of

10 the staff of the supreme command by Commander Rasim Delic. Do you know at

11 all in what way a commander of the Main Staff receives his information?

12 A. I really don't know about the chain of command and how this was

13 done.

14 Q. And you were shown a statement made by your neighbour,

15 Mr. Viskovic, a moment ago, where the security was mentioned and the MOS

16 as well. Did the MOS exist while you were mayor?

17 A. I explained at the beginning that all the members of the Bosniak

18 people, whether in the police, the army, or what else, whether they were

19 called Mujahedin or MOS or whatever. Anyway, the Muslim army, Alija's

20 army. There were different terms that they were known by. But that is a

21 notorious lie.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

23 questions.

24 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. There's only one matter to

25 deal with.

Page 14257

1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Dixon:

2 Q. Sir, it was put to you by the Prosecution that the ICRC was

3 prevented from visiting the music school, and you replied that you had

4 never heard that before. Is that correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Can you confirm from what you knew at the time when you were in

7 Zenica that indeed various international organisations, including the EUMM

8 and the Red Cross, did in fact visit the KP Dom and the music school?

9 A. I have already said the circumstances under which I visited the

10 music school, with two secretaries, Brane Ivanovic and the other man

11 accompanying me. So that every meeting with representatives of

12 international organisations, that they insisted and didn't insist upon, I

13 insisted on visiting, but they didn't want that. Finally, I should like

14 to emphasise that when arranging humanitarian aid in the town of Zenica, I

15 would certainly have sanctioned the Red Cross. I wouldn't have allowed

16 food to be centralised and become part of the system for the regulation of

17 humanitarian aid. So it is on that basis that I assess that the Red Cross

18 knew how matters stood in Zenica, the real situation. And I say with full

19 responsibility that all the international organisations present and

20 representatives of international and state and humanitarian missions were

21 able to see for themselves that the town and the Zenica municipality

22 respected the constitutional right of each and every citizen. That is to

23 say that regardless of religion and ethnic affiliation and political

24 options, they were treated the same way. They had the same -- absolutely

25 the same and equal rights. And even Croats, for example, were in a much

Page 14258

1 better position. They had more food that was distributed to them. And

2 another good thing that happened in Zenica was that Caritas held public

3 kitchens, soup kitchens for citizens in Zenica. So I assume that the Red

4 Cross, that is to say, would have sanctioned the work of the municipal

5 government had things like that ever happened in the territory of Zenica.

6 Q. Before we continue, if you could just confirm, looking at page 48,

7 line 8, it says in the transcript that: "I would have sanctioned the Red

8 Cross." In light of your answers, is it not the correct interpretation

9 that the Red Cross would have sanctioned that work to take place?

10 A. Sanctioned the municipality, yes.

11 Q. If I can be more specific, given your general answer. You won't

12 know this, but there was evidence presented before the Trial Chamber that

13 the ICRC did visit persons on occasions. This evidence was given by

14 persons who were in the music school. Would such evidence accord with

15 what you knew at the time about access to prisons in Zenica?

16 A. I really do think that I've answered that question already.

17 That is to say, nobody asked me to do that, so I didn't have any comments

18 made like that from the Red Cross. So what the reports were, I really

19 can't say. But the International Red Cross -- every humanitarian

20 organisation had access to all areas and was secured, enjoyed security.

21 Q. And finally, there has been evidence before the Trial Chamber that

22 members of other international organisations, such as the EUMM, including

23 a Mr. Lars Baggesen, did visit the music school. Once again, would that

24 evidence accord with what your understanding at the time was about access

25 to prisons in Zenica?

Page 14259

1 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Prosecution.

3 MR. WAESPI: The witness answered what he knew about this on

4 several occasions. I think he confirmed that. I don't think it's

5 appropriate for the Defence now in re-examination to put to him what other

6 witnesses said and ask him whether that's confirmed or not. That's up to

7 the Trial Chamber to -- or for him in closing argument, to say so many

8 witnesses testified on certain points. He gave his answer. Nothing else,

9 and I think that should be enough.

10 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, the practice before this Trial Chamber

11 has been repeatedly to put evidence that previous witnesses gave to

12 current witnesses to test the veracity of that evidence. And I'm simply

13 putting to the witness that there has been previous evidence about access

14 to the music school by the EUMM, and I've mentioned a name Mr. Baggesen.

15 He might know this person. I'm just asking him whether he can confirm

16 that that evidence is correct. Because it would be our submission that

17 that evidence is true, and we wish to determine whether or not this

18 witness can confirm that.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Just a

20 moment. Stop there for a moment.

21 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Defence wishes to ask

23 the witness, one, whether he heard about Mr. Baggesen; two, can he confirm

24 from his point of view, that there might have been visitors, international

25 visitors, or others, who were at the music school, because the Defence

Page 14260












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Page 14261

1 told us there were people who have come here to testify on several

2 occasions, and we were able to confront different confrontations and

3 documents with the testimony given, either to highlight certain points or

4 to test the credibility of a witness. So it is along those lines that the

5 Defence wishes to ask you the question.

6 Now, the Prosecution has the floor.

7 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I believe you're right, Mr. President. If

8 Mr. Dixon wants to ask him whether he knew Mr. Baggesen, whether they

9 discussed visits of Mr. Baggesen to the music school, I have no problem.

10 But this is not an expert who is about to get different witness

11 testimonies and makes his conclusions. He is a fact witness. He said

12 what he knows. And Mr. Dixon can inquire further. But to just tell him

13 what other witnesses said I believe is inappropriate.

14 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, that is what all the parties and

15 Your Honours have indeed been doing throughout the trial, to ask witnesses

16 about what other witnesses have said. In some systems, that is done; in

17 others not. But certainly before the International Tribunal, which has a

18 more flexible system, that is a way of questioning witnesses. And I'm

19 simply wanting to know from him if a witness said I went to visit the

20 music school on a particular day, that was Mr. Baggesen, I had access to

21 the music school, would that seem to be true to him, given what he knew at

22 the time? He was there on the ground.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to dwell

24 on individual statements, but I say with full responsibility, having taken

25 the oath before this Honourable Tribunal, that anybody who wanted to could

Page 14262

1 have gone there, anyone, which means citizens too. On one occasion, when

2 I was a guest at one of the local stations, there were comments and

3 objections made of that kind. And as the president of the Executive Board

4 or member of the local government said: Let's see. Let's test the

5 situation. And we can go and visit it.

6 So I say with full responsibility before this Honourable Tribunal,

7 having taken the solemn declaration, that anybody could have visited the

8 music school if they had wanted to. And as for other statements, I really

9 can't say whether they were ill intentioned or well-intentioned or why

10 they were given, for what reason. I can't say. But I repeat once again

11 before this Honourable Court that I say with full responsibility, and I

12 have taken the oath to tell the truth, that anybody could have visited the

13 music school, anybody who wanted to. Without going in to enumerate other

14 ethnic groups who went to the school.

15 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, thank you. I have no further questions.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. As far as I'm

17 concerned, I just have a few small questions to ask you.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to say

20 that as far as we're concerned, you're not a second-rate citizen,

21 second-class citizen. You have, of course, taken the solemn oath to speak

22 the truth, and so we consider that you are doing so. And your past

23 situation will have nothing to do with our own appreciation of your

24 testimony.

25 The Defence showed you a document a moment ago, a book, in fact,

Page 14263

1 written by Mr. Spahic, who was the president of the War Presidency. My

2 question for you is this: Have you read the book?

3 A. Partially.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you read it

5 partially.

6 A. Your Honour, I say "partially" because I was an eyewitness to the

7 events, so I know of all the events that he's writing about. It happened

8 while I was president of the municipal government myself.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So in that book, on

10 page 112, the author of the document relates a conversation that he had

11 with Mr. Lebourg, which the name doesn't tell me anything. Mr. Lebourg.

12 Do you know who Mr. Lebourg is? Because his name is cited in the

13 document. No? It doesn't ring a bell?

14 A. I don't know who the president of the municipality had talks with.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, anyway, in the

16 document, they discuss the subject of Mujahedins, and my question to you

17 is based on the document and follows on from it. As far as you're

18 concerned - you yourself lived in Zenica - did you see any Mujahedin

19 yourself?

20 A. When it comes to Mujahedin, that is to say, foreign citizens

21 staying -- residing in the area of Zenica, I just had one meeting with two

22 representatives. They were wearing white robes and came to me asking for

23 assistance, that is to say, logistical support, in terms of food. I sent

24 them to the 3rd Corps, referred them to the 3rd Corps, and said that it

25 was only by decision and request of the 3rd Corps that we could do

Page 14264

1 anything about that and ensure food supplies. That was the only time I

2 met any one of them. But we did take measures, take steps to establish

3 the identity of these people, and we insisted upon checking out their

4 papers, and asked the Ministry of the Interior to do, so especially since

5 there was an incident that took place in Zenica in which two humanitarian

6 workers were killed, I think. And the people -- the perpetrators were

7 brought to task, sanctioned.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that in Zenica there

9 were about 40 humanitarian organisations and that you dealt with the

10 question of refugees, food, et cetera. Now, we have also been told,

11 because a number of witnesses came in here, and we were told that those

12 foreigners had come to bring aid in food and to support the people, assist

13 the people, in terms of money, food, different types of aid. In your

14 capacity, and with your responsibilities, did you have any knowledge of

15 that aid that was mentioned, and was it effective in helping out the

16 refugees?

17 A. You mean the Mujahedin? Is that what you're referring to? Well,

18 I really didn't know about that aid and assistance. The humanitarian

19 organisations that we communicated with, and they have been recorded, I

20 believe, in the secretariat for the economy, and of course the Ministry of

21 the Interior, I assume, recorded the existence of these 40-odd

22 humanitarian organisations. The UNHCR can be highlighted in particular.

23 Now, had that organisation, if it had worked under any name, I wasn't

24 aware of it. And I assume that it did not have any major effect in the

25 sense of humanitarian aid or food aid. So I say with full responsibility

Page 14265

1 that the municipality reaped no benefit from any of that.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Spahic says in his book, and

3 that is on page 14 of the translation - I'm reading page 14 - he says that

4 their "humanitarian activity was negligible." He also says that, that it

5 was negligible. What do you think, that humanitarian activity was

6 negligible, he says?

7 A. Well, I say that too. Any contribution in material terms or food

8 or anything like that, I wasn't aware are, actually. I can't remember. Of

9 course, I can't remember all the organisations, but I'm sure if you look

10 at the archives you could look at the names of the different

11 organisations. We had joint meetings several times a week, because this

12 was warranted by the events on the ground, what was going on in that

13 period of time, meant that we had to have frequent meetings. So I had

14 contacts, very good contacts, with those organisations working in the

15 Zenica area. But the meetings were usually presided over by the

16 representative of the UNHCR. In the first -- my first half of my mandate,

17 it was Mr. de la Mota, and afterwards it was the other man.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the course of your

19 testimony - and I'm relying on my memory - you speak about organisations

20 and you brought up the name of Merhamet, an organisation called Merhamet.

21 Could you tell us a little more about that organisation, which was a

22 charity organisation?

23 A. Well, if I can compare Merhamet, it's the same as Caritas, a

24 charity organisation. Rather, these were the ones I knew, and they took

25 part in that kind of work. So -- and the translation of the name itself,

Page 14266












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Page 14267

1 Merhamet, means to be good, to be nice, to look nice, to respect others,

2 and so on. That's the translation of the word "Merhamet" itself, which is

3 what the organisation goes by.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you have any meetings

5 with the responsible people from that organisation? And if so, do you

6 happen to remember a name, one of the names?

7 A. You mean of the Merhamet organisation? Is that what you mean?

8 Well, they were representatives, but I can't remember their names, but

9 they were people from the local area, from Zenica, and they were organised

10 up to state level. They were organisations which were active in the

11 municipality and in the district but I can't remember any specific names

12 now.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the composition of that

14 organisation, its members, according to you, were people -- were

15 nationals, locals. There wasn't -- there weren't any foreigners in the

16 Merhamet organisation?

17 A. Yes. Certainly not. The headquarters were in Zenica.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And another question relating to

19 financial matters, because you have an understanding of finances, you're

20 an auditor, and I assume that your municipality had some financial

21 problems because you had to find food and so on. Did you have a way of

22 funding, of financing this, apart from the funds you received from the

23 state? Were there any private donations made by private individuals or

24 coming in from abroad, for example? Can you tell us about that, be more

25 specific, how this was financed, this humanitarian work?

Page 14268

1 A. So on the question of financing the armed forces of the Republic

2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the local authorities were duty-bound to --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. I'm not talking about the

4 financing of the army. I just mean the money you needed, the funds you

5 needed in your municipal activity to go about your business, which might

6 have come from private donations, private individuals, companies,

7 associations, things like that.

8 A. No. Not a single BH dinar or convertible German mark, as it was

9 known - that was the method of payment, the currency at the time. Not a

10 single mark, and I say that with full responsibility, came into the

11 municipal budget, except the decision made by the Presidency of the Zenica

12 municipality, and confirmed by parliament, and in keeping with the

13 provision and law on the -- governing the armed forces in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the burden of the war should be equally

15 distributed amongst the economy. So that was the only source of

16 financing. And credits that were given by the investment and commercial

17 bank of Zenica, the loans they gave.

18 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, Witness. I have one or two questions

19 on the music school that has been discussed several times. I take it, but

20 please correct me, that the music school is owned by the municipality of

21 Zenica. Is that correct?

22 A. That's correct. That is to say, the school centre.

23 JUDGE SWART: [Previous translation continues] ... with the army in

24 1993. Was it requisitioned by the army or was it given to the army? What

25 was the relationship between the army and the civil authorities, as far as

Page 14269

1 the music school is concerned?

2 A. Up until June 1993, when I arrived on the scene, there was a

3 secretariat for defence, which had to report to the Ministry of Defence of

4 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it had the Executive Committee

5 above it. It had to report on materiel and technical equipment. And this

6 building was mobilised by the secretariat for defence for Zenica

7 municipality. And that was the case for many other buildings and other

8 equipment. And this was in accordance with the law on the armed forces.

9 It was done illegally [as interpreted], in accordance with the regulations

10 that were in force at the time.

11 JUDGE SWART: My question is the following: Would you be

12 authorised, as being the presidents of the War Presidency, to order

13 visitors -- to order the army to accept visitors of the building?

14 A. I'll just have to correct you. I wasn't the president of the

15 Presidency. I was the president of the local municipal government.

16 JUDGE SWART: Well, then let me say in your capacity in 1993.

17 Would you be authorised to tell the army to let visitors, international

18 visitors or humanitarian visitors, visit the building?

19 A. Why not? If we respected the principle of divided

20 responsibilities, it would -- if you bear in mind the responsibilities

21 that the army had, there was the HVO, the ABiH, the Ministry of the

22 Interior. But there was coordination, and there was such coordination on

23 the basis of the law. If a commander said it was necessary to have a

24 visit, I think that that request would not have been complied with [as

25 interpreted]. That's what I think. I don't know if I've been

Page 14270

1 sufficiently clear.

2 JUDGE SWART: Well, that's my question, really. I don't know what

3 the relationship between the civil authorities and the military

4 authorities are -- were at the time in 1993. But if I were an army man,

5 and I used building by the civil authorities, I would perhaps have the

6 feeling that --

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Mr. Bourgon. A

8 translation problem?

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact, Mr. President. In the

10 witness's last answer, page 58, when he answered the question, it says: "I

11 think that that request would have been complied with." But the

12 transcript says "would not have been complied with." Perhaps Judge Swart

13 could put the question to the witness again, Mr. President. Thank you,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 JUDGE SWART: Let me ask the question again, because I have some

17 difficulty in understanding the question. So my question was: If some

18 visitors came to you and asked for permission to visit the music school,

19 which was in use by the military, could you authorise the military, the

20 commander, the local commander of the school, to accept the visit of an

21 observer, international or other observer?

22 A. Well, he could have called me, but this would have been done

23 through the 3rd Corps. If a visit was involved. I couldn't directly

24 participate in this. The division of responsibilities was respected

25 during that period.

Page 14271

1 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As the Judges have put their

3 questions to the witness and the witness has answered the questions, both

4 parties have the right to put additional questions to the witness in order

5 to clarify certain answers or to obtain additional information. But I

6 will first ask the Prosecution whether they have any additional questions,

7 and afterwards the Defence may take the floor. Yes, the Prosecution.

8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Just one small issue,

9 Mr. Dzaferovic.

10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:

11 Q. In answer to one of Their Honour's questions, you said that -- you

12 mentioned an incident in Zenica when I believe two humanitarian workers

13 were wounded or killed. Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do remember that.

15 Q. And you continued saying that "the perpetrators were brought to

16 sanctions." Now, tell me first: Who, according to your information, were

17 the perpetrators?

18 A. Well, at a meeting held on the following day - this took place in

19 the evening - a meeting was held, a security meeting, attended by

20 representatives of the authorities and of the judiciary, and we were

21 informed that the man who had allegedly perpetrated the crime was in

22 detention. And that is all the information I have.

23 Q. The context of the question you were asked was about, I believe,

24 foreign people, Mujahedin. So I just ask to clarify --

25 A. No, I didn't say that the Mujahedin were in question. I mentioned

Page 14272

1 two humanitarian workers who had been killed. And I said that the person

2 who had perpetrated the crime had been arrested. He was in detention. And

3 the president of the high court, Mr. Djuro Goblak, informed us of this, in

4 the presence of about 20 people.

5 Q. But what do you know about the perpetrator, if anything? Was he a

6 Muslim, a Croat? Was he a soldier, was he a civilian? If you know.

7 A. I was the president of the municipal government. This was the

8 task of the security services centre. It wasn't my task. And as I

9 respect the principle of the division of responsibilities, it wasn't my

10 right to request any information or to obtain any information. And you

11 know that this involved organs of prosecution and investigation at the

12 time, who were responsible for taking the appropriate measures within the

13 framework of court proceedings.

14 Q. So you don't know who the perpetrator was, civilian, soldier,

15 policeman?

16 A. No. No.

17 MR. WAESPI: No questions any more, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Dixon.

19 MR. DIXON: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Defence counsel who

21 called the witness may now put additional questions to the witness.

22 Further re-examination by Ms. Residovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dzaferovic, it seems to me you mentioned

24 which organisation those two individuals belonged to, those two

25 individuals who were killed. But I'm not sure it's been entered into the

Page 14273

1 transcript. Could you mention the name.

2 A. The humanitarian organisation called Oda.

3 Q. I only have one more question in relation to a question put to you

4 by one of the Judges. You said what you would have done if someone had

5 requested access to the music school. Since you're so open to

6 suggestions, comments made by citizens, because you mentioned 5.600

7 individuals, who visited you, tell me whether at any point in time any of

8 the citizens, and of the any of the humanitarian or religious

9 organisations or anyone else, did anyone ever come to complain to you

10 about the fact that a military unit, a brigade or a corps, had refused

11 them access to the music school. Did anyone ever complain to you about

12 this?

13 A. No. On the contrary. Perhaps I failed to mention to the Chamber

14 that in my office, Father Radic was present on a daily basis, as well as

15 the late Drincic. We dealt with common problems, and there were certain

16 incidents in Zenica. There were 82 local communes in the municipality of

17 Zenica. And as the president, and with my vice-president, Zelko Tadic,

18 and Father Radic, we would visit villages were the majority of the

19 population were Croats. Those villages were Gornja Zenica, Janjac,

20 Cajdras, et cetera, as far as I can remember.

21 Q. And my very final question, since you have mentioned the name of

22 your vice-president on a number of occasions, Mr. Tadic. What was his

23 ethnicity?

24 A. He was a Croat, and he became the vice-president of the Executive

25 Committee representing the HDZ, and his president was Josip Pojavnik.

Page 14274

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, sir. This concludes

2 your testimony. On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for

3 having come to testify in The Hague. We wish you all the best. We wish

4 you a good trip home. And naturally, as the new year has just commenced,

5 we wish you all the best in your career.

6 I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to the

10 Defence to inform us of the second witness.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would first like

12 to suggest that the documents on our list of documents from 1 to 7 be

13 admitted into evidence.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we will deal with that.

15 Very well. Defence counsel is requesting that the documents

16 recognised by the witness be admitted into evidence, documents that he had

17 signed, a book that he recognised and that he had read. What is the

18 Prosecution's position with regard to these documents?

19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes. The book, obviously,

20 it's been authored by somebody else, and -- but we believe it's up to

21 Your Honours to decide which weight to give to such a hearsay document.

22 We have no objections to tendering it into evidence.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. In fact, the Chamber shall

24 assess the weight to be given to the documents.

25 Mr. Registrar, could we have exhibit numbers for the documents.

Page 14275

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

2 a list of seven documents. The first one, the official journal, number

3 2/93, shall be admitted into evidence. The number will be DH1985 and the

4 English version DH1985/E. This is the gazette.

5 The second document, dated the 31st of May, 1993, shall be

6 admitted into evidence. The number will be DH1986. And the English

7 version shall be DH1986/E.

8 The third document, dated the 4th of June, 1993, the number -- the

9 local number, internal number 025371/93. This document shall be admitted

10 into evidence, and the number will be DH1987. The English version will be

11 DH1987/E.

12 The fourth document, dated the 4th of June, 1993, has an internal

13 number which is 025372/93. It shall be admitted into evidence and the

14 number will be DH1988. The English version will be DH1988/E.

15 The fifth document is dated the 7th of June, 1993, and it will be

16 admitted into evidence. The number will be DH1989. The number of the

17 English version will be DH1989/E.

18 The sixth document is dated the 8th of June, 1993. It shall be

19 admitted into evidence and the number will be DH1990. The English version

20 will be DH1990/E.

21 And finally, the seventh document is a document that was marked

22 for identification and will now be given the definitive exhibit number,

23 DH1593. And the English version will be DH1593/E.

24 I have now dealt with all the documents, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 14276

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

3 like to make sure that you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm

4 saying. If so, please say that you can hear and understand me.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I understand you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

7 witness for the Defence. Before you take the solemn declaration, could

8 you please tell me your first and last names, your date of birth, and your

9 place of birth.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Hamdija Kulovic. I was

11 born on the 6th of February, 1948, in Zenica, in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you currently employed? And

13 if so, what position do you hold?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I am currently employed in an

15 agency for privatisation in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are a functionary?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work for the agency for

18 privatisation. It's not a state service. It's a specialised organisation

19 that is involved in privatising selected companies within the Federation

20 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1992 and 1993,

22 over ten years ago, did you hold a position of any kind? What did you do

23 at the time?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until 1992, I was the director of

25 the largest steel plant in Zenica. That company had 23.000 workers and it

Page 14277

1 produced over 2 million tonnes and 2 billion dollars was its annual

2 revenue.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993, I was the general director

5 of the entire plant.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you already

7 testified before a national or international court about the events that

8 took place in your country in 1992 or 1993, or is this the first time?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Today will be the first time.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

11 solemn declaration.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

17 You will now have to answer the questions that will be put to you

18 by Defence counsel, who are to your left. You have certainly had the

19 opportunity of meeting them when you were proofed for this hearing. Once

20 this stage has been completed, I'm not sure how long it will last for the

21 moment, but once this stage has been completed, the Prosecution, who are

22 to your right, will commence with their cross-examination.

23 After they have concluded their cross-examination, they'll have

24 the same amount of time as the Defence. After that stage, the Defence

25 counsel can put additional questions to you that are related to questions

Page 14278

1 that are put to you by the Prosecution.

2 The three Judges sitting before you may then ask you questions in

3 order to clarify some of your answers or for any other reasons, and in the

4 interest of justice.

5 Once the Judges have put their questions to you, the Prosecution

6 and the Defence, who will take the floor last, may ask you additional

7 questions. And that is when we will have completed your testimony. I

8 don't know whether this will be completed today or tomorrow, or rather, on

9 Monday. But if we're not able to finish with your testimony today, you'll

10 have to continue on Monday.

11 As you have taken the solemn declaration, you should not give

12 false testimony, but I assume that you are aware of the fact. In

13 addition, I would like to point out something that shouldn't be applicable

14 to you. If a witness believes that an answer he provides might be used

15 against him at a subsequent date, the witness may refuse to answer the

16 question. In such a case, the Chamber may compel the witness to answer

17 the question. In such exceptional circumstances, and we have never been

18 faced with such a situation to date, in such exceptional circumstances,

19 the Chamber grants the witness a form of immunity. If you find the

20 question is complicated, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it.

21 Be aware of the fact that your testimony is very important because we have

22 no written documents that concern you. We know nothing about you. This

23 is why your oral testimony is so important.

24 Roughly speaking, this is how we will be proceeding. We have

25 about another ten minutes before the break. I don't know whether Defence

Page 14279

1 counsel would like to start their examination-in-chief now or after the

2 break. It's for the Defence to decide.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think we could

4 start now.

5 And could the usher distribute a bundle of documents to the

6 witness, the Chamber, and my learned colleagues.

7 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kulovic. While these documents are

9 being distributed, there is something else I would like to point out to

10 you, Mr. Kulovic. As we speak the same language, you might want to answer

11 my question as soon as I have put it to you. But since it's important to

12 interpret my questions and your answers so that everyone in the courtroom

13 can follow our, exchange, I would be grateful if you would leave a brief

14 pause after I have put my question to you. Have you understood what I'm

15 saying? Have you understood what I'm saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. You said that you were the director of the steelworks

18 plant, and then you were the general director of the entire steel plant.

19 Tell me something about your educational background. What are you by

20 profession and where were you educated?

21 A. I'm an engineer in metallurgy and I completed my education,

22 primary school, secondary school, and the university, in Zenica.

23 Q. In April 1992, what post did you occupy?

24 A. In April 1992 I was the director of the biggest part of the Zenica

25 steelworks, which had 6.000 workers.

Page 14280

1 Q. Mr. Kulovic, at any point in time, did you also have a military

2 function to perform, in addition to your professional duties?

3 A. Up until April 1992, or by April 1992, I had completed my military

4 service, which lasts for one year. That was sometime in 1973. And when I

5 served in the military, I completed the school for reserve officers. My

6 specialty was the construction of roads, bridges, so it concerned

7 engineering work and units involving engineering. This was up until April

8 1992.

9 Q. And in 1992?

10 A. There was a decision - I don't know the exact date - a company

11 decision, and the Ironworks Battalion, the so-called Ironworks Battalion

12 was formed. There were 1.300 men in it. It was based in the company. It

13 wasn't armed, nor did it have any military characteristics. The men would

14 only gather occasionally in order to protect the property of the company,

15 the men in the company, et cetera. When the municipal authorities spoke

16 to the commander of the garrison of the JNA in Zenica, well, these

17 discussions ran into a crisis, and a different team of people continued

18 with these discussions. On behalf of the JNA, General Sipcic came to

19 Zenica. He was a general who was in charge of withdrawing the JNA from

20 Slovenia, and he was very successful in completing this task.

21 And on behalf of the BH authorities, three civilians were

22 responsible for these discussions: I, as the commander of that unarmed

23 battalion; Mr. Mirsad Mesic, who was the commander of the municipal staff

24 of civilian protection; and Mr. Branko Boncina, the commander of the

25 municipal staff of People's Defence.

Page 14281

1 After a few days of discussions, we had agreed on certain details

2 on how JNA units were to withdraw. This task was completed very

3 successfully and there were not even minor incidents. The task was

4 carried out by men from the Zenica Ironworks Battalion.

5 Q. You mentioned the fact that you were the commander of the

6 Ironworks Battalion. Tell me: Up until when were you the commander of

7 the Ironworks Battalion, and afterwards, were you only involved in

8 business or did you have a military position of any kind?

9 A. I remained the commander of the Ironworks Battalion until the

10 beginning of July. So for about two months after the barracks was taken

11 over. I was then appointed as the general director of the company, and I

12 remained in that position until the year 2000.

13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kulovic. Mr. Kulovic, could you please

14 tell me, as a prominent businessman in Zenica, as a prominent citizen of

15 Zenica: Do you know what sort of units, for the purpose of defending the

16 country, were created in Zenica in the course of 1992?

17 A. Well, I do know that war is a serious matter and can't be left to

18 chance. You can't tolerate wilful behaviour in such a situation. And I

19 quickly came to realise that order in society, cracking down on crime and

20 paramilitary formations, et cetera, was a key issue if the state was to

21 survive. I frequently spoke to members of the international community who

22 were in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they were of the same opinion. They

23 believed that dealing with such issues was of crucial importance for the

24 survival of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 I'll now describe the actual situation that prevailed in Zenica at

Page 14282

1 the time. It was -- it became very chaotic very rapidly. The situation

2 deteriorated very rapidly. In just one month, in May and June and July,

3 schools of units were formed in Zenica, units that had very differing

4 ideologies and very different insignia, different characteristics. They

5 were formed by individuals problematic individuals in Zenica at the time.

6 They were also formed by politicians, and there were even units that were

7 formed by Zenica businessmen, people who had money and who would form a

8 unit consisting of 50 or a hundred men. They would train it, finance it,

9 and place themselves at the head of these units.

10 At that time, there were a number of units that had been formed by

11 the municipal staff, and the Ironworks Battalion was one of those units.

12 And there were two other battalions that were subsequently formed by

13 Ironworks employees. In addition, there was a HOS unit. This was a party

14 unit. It belonged to the Croatian Peasants Party. There was an HVO unit

15 which was an HDZ party unit. And a few months earlier on, there was the

16 so-called Patriotic League. There was the Green League, that consisted of

17 about 70 men. I don't know who formed this unit. Muslim forces soon

18 appeared as well, guerrilla forces appeared, and there were private

19 armies, as I have said.

20 Q. Thank you. It would perhaps be a good time to have a break now,

21 Mr. President, and I will continue after the break.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It is now half past

23 12.00. We will have our technical break and we will resume at about 5 to

24 1.00, and we'll continue.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we perhaps

Page 14283

1 just have a 15- or 20-minute break to try and conclude the examination of

2 this witness today? Thank you. Perhaps you could bear this request in

3 mind.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll reduce the

5 break to 15 minutes. So we will resume at a quarter to 1.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Q. Mr. Kulovic, just before the break you were explaining to us what

10 the situation was like in Zenica in 1992. Tell me now, please: Do you

11 happen to know whether at some point in time toward the end of 1992, Enver

12 Hadzihasanovic arrived with the aim of forming a corps? Do you know about

13 that fact? Were you aware of that, its flow? Tell me about the problems

14 he encountered were.

15 A. Yes. At the end of 1992 he did come to Zenica, probably with the

16 task of putting law and order into the chaotic state that reigned in the

17 town, that is to say, Commander Hadzihasanovic arrived.

18 Q. I'm going to ask you to take a look at documents 1 and 2 that are

19 in front of you and that I gave you during our preparations for testimony.

20 Take a look at them, please, and tell us whether these two documents

21 compiled by Commander Hadzihasanovic, one in November 1992 and one in

22 February 1993, whether they reflect the situation as it was during that

23 period of time in Zenica.

24 A. I think that these documents --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer. Do they or

Page 14284

1 do they not?

2 A. A large number of units that were formed with different ideologies

3 and different sources of supplies, with different interests, mostly

4 personal interests, made the situation in town for normal people

5 inexplicable. Every third man was wearing a uniform, for example, in

6 town, and had -- and publicly displayed weapons. Units would come to

7 companies, without any documents, any papers whatsoever, or with invalid

8 documents, would seize cars, for example, and other property belonging to

9 the company or enterprise, or they would take over space in the firm, the

10 premises. And the management of the firm had to move out, and they would

11 move in to those premises. And all the important premises, starting out

12 with hotels, for example, important buildings, hotels, the student

13 cultural centre, school buildings, old-age pensioners' homes and things

14 like that, they were taken over by the military units.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Kulovic, what you're just saying now, do you -- let me just

17 clarify matters. Do you want to say that the situation was more difficult

18 than it was as stipulated in the documents written by

19 Commander Hadzihasanovic which he encountered when he came to form the 3rd

20 Corps?

21 A. Yes, absolutely. So the situation was much more difficult. He

22 was there for just a brief period of time and wasn't able to assess the

23 situation fully. But I, as a citizen of Zenica myself, as an inhabitant,

24 was fully conscious of the gravity of the situation that prevailed there.

25 Q. Thank you. As somebody working in the economy and as a resident,

Page 14285

1 after Commander Hadzihasanovic came and established the 3rd Corps, soon

2 after that, were you able to notice any changes or changes in the way in

3 which the situation was dealt with, the chaos was dealt with?

4 A. As the director of a large company who had very good men working

5 for me, the workers and employees of the Zenica ironworks, I was able to

6 protect the company's property. And on the compound of the ironworks,

7 which was larger than the town, in fact, 4 million square metres, not a

8 single unit entered that space that took over the compound. But that was

9 at great risk, because I was constantly open to pressure and violent

10 pressure to have somebody seize something from the enterprise, from

11 storming the premises and taking over property. There were even demands

12 that that part of town where the company was should be handed over to a

13 unit to control. Other companies weren't in a situation like that.

14 When Mr. Hadzihasanovic arrived, I received confirmation that

15 everything that did not come from any official command of the units should

16 be taken account of. And without official papers, I was not to meet

17 anybody's demands or comply with anybody's demands, unless they had the

18 necessary official papers.

19 Q. We heard here that the command of the 3rd Corps was located in one

20 of the buildings belonging to the Zenica ironworks. Could you tell me,

21 please, whether, with your personal example of the relationship to what

22 the command needed, did Commander Hadzihasanovic try and bring law and

23 order back to Zenica?

24 A. Well, the corps command really did take up the premises one metre

25 [as interpreted] from the main headquarters building, in a premises there.

Page 14286

1 It was the building of our project bureaus, our design offices. And in

2 order to cut our costs for heating and to rationalise the heating, we

3 moved to the main building, and that building was left empty. The

4 building we were in previously was left empty.

5 There was a mistake made by the director of the project bureau.

6 Before Mr. Hadzihasanovic arrived, somebody else had taken over the

7 premises, that is to say, soldiers, without the necessary authorisation

8 and papers. But when Mr. Hadzihasanovic arrived, we were able to regulate

9 the matter. In keeping with the rules and regulations, the building was

10 mobilised, or requisitioned, and that was in keeping with the law. And

11 from that time on, the company would send out invoices to the army for all

12 the expenses incurred during that particular month.

13 Q. Just for the record: On page 74, line 11, it says that this was

14 one metre away from the main headquarters building, whereas the witness

15 said 100 metres. So the figure is 100 metres.

16 A. Yes. The project bureau was opposite the other side of the road

17 and it was about a hundred metres away.

18 Q. Mr. Kulovic, tell me, please: Were you witness of the difficult

19 situation that reigned between those individual groups, and how difficult

20 was it to establish law and order, and what did Mr. Hadzihasanovic have to

21 encounter? What resistance did he encounter from these numerous groups,

22 and how hard was it for him to discipline them?

23 A. Well, from the very beginning, I was quite clear that the mission

24 assigned to Commander Hadzihasanovic was no easy mission. It was not at

25 all easy to carry it out. I'm a practical man myself, but I considered

Page 14287

1 that the task was well-nigh impossible. The decision to introduce law and

2 order was brought in too late to begin with, and that it would be very

3 difficult, and I thought that it would be almost impossible to introduce

4 law and order properly.

5 After this decision was taken for individual units formed in the

6 way they were formed, should be attached to the -- or come under the

7 supervision of the corps command by means of forming brigades, I attended

8 a meeting of the commanders of the Patriotic League, for example, and

9 Mr. Hadzihasanovic. That wasn't the worst unit with the most problems,

10 but it was interesting to see how much effort had to be invested in

11 remaining outside the brigade command and corps command. They did what

12 they could. They made promises about thousands of soldiers, of asking for

13 less supplies, whereas in fact I felt that what they were really trying to

14 do was to remain outside the system of command and outside the authority

15 of the command, that they would like to stay in town and to play it being

16 combatants, whereas they weren't really combatants or fighters. They

17 wanted to have their own logistics, and probably to further their own

18 interests of some kind.

19 Q. Mr. Kulovic, you said that the intention was to have law and order

20 prevail. Tell me, please: Was it precisely

21 Commander Enver Hadzihasanovic who, throughout 1993, was the head of that

22 principle, that there must be law and order in the army?

23 A. Yes, absolutely so. He was guided by that principle, and all his

24 attentions were spent trying to do that.

25 Q. Thank you. Tell me now, please, Mr. Kulovic -- or rather, take a

Page 14288

1 look at document number 3 first, please, and read the last sentence of

2 paragraph 1 of that document. But before you do so, let me ask you: Your

3 steelworks, ironworks, was the R.N.K. So it was the mine and ironworks of

4 Zenica. Is that right? And you knew the situation in the mine and the

5 ironworks from the position you occupied?

6 A. This is document 3.

7 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you first: Were you fully abreast of the

8 situation in the mines and the ironworks?

9 A. Yes. I knew of all the details, the entire situation. I'm an

10 inhabitant of Zenica myself. I knew thousands of people.

11 Q. Right. Now, let's have a look at document 3, and the number is

12 P655 [as interpreted]. Would you read out paragraph -- the last sentence

13 of paragraph 1, beginning with the words "towards the Croats."

14 A. I can't find the beginning, but ...

15 Q. It says: "The Muslim party behaves towards the Croats in Zenica

16 as if they were slaves, because they are under physical pressure and

17 forced to work in the mines, to join the Muslim army. They are subject to

18 threats. Their family is subject to threats," and so on. Do you see that

19 sentence?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Well, since you are a citizen of Zenica yourself and was the

22 managing director, did this ever happen during the war in Zenica?

23 A. I don't wish to deny that there were individual crimes committed

24 in Zenica and that members of all three ethnic groups suffered at the

25 hands of wilful people, madmen wearing uniforms, but I would like to say

Page 14289

1 that I don't agree with the way this was stated. I was the director of a

2 large company from 1992 onwards, and my secretary was a Croatian lady.

3 She was a Croat from Bosnia. And my driver was a Bosnian Serb, for

4 example. Two of my four advisors, two were Bosnian Serbs. Of the 15 or

5 so managing directors, six directors of various plants, or rather, seven,

6 managers were either Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Serbs, for example. And I

7 know about a large number of people in Zenica, of a large number of people

8 in Zenica, who lived in great harmony together in these difficult times.

9 But I don't wish to deny, having said that, that there were excessive

10 situations, there were killings, unjustified, arbitrary killings, brutal

11 killings. But this description does not correspond to the situation as it

12 was. I want to say that it was wartime, and I myself was jeopardised at

13 the time. I felt myself to be very insecure and unsafe.

14 Q. Thank you. Tell me: In view of the fact that you say that it was

15 absolutely incorrect that they were slaves or taken to the mines, et

16 cetera, et cetera, were you ever faced at that time with a concept, a

17 general concept of terrible propaganda that was unleashed in Zenica, which

18 depicted the situation in a quite distorted manner, different from what

19 you described it, that it was a state of war with excessive situations,

20 but not in the way it was described by HVO propaganda, for instance?

21 A. Well, I knew the importance of propaganda, given the conditions

22 that prevailed, but I could never have imagined that propaganda could go

23 to such lengths and have such terrible consequences and that it could be

24 used and wielded in that way. So, on the one hand, I was proclaimed a

25 traitor by my own people, as somebody who helped others, and the Croatian

Page 14290

1 people, the -- or rather, the HVO, issued an order that I should be

2 arrested at a checkpoint as being some kind of protagonist of the idea and

3 concept of a Muslim state, which of course was not true.

4 I remember several cases in point. For example, there were

5 writings in some Serb papers, that in the Zenica ironworks, in the

6 furnace, people were being burnt alive, for example. That was one form of

7 propaganda which was just nonsensical. And it was just nonsense.

8 And towards the end of the war, representatives of the

9 international forces came to see me to ask about information concerning

10 people who had allegedly been incarcerated in the ironworks and were doing

11 forced labour there, which of course was not true at all. We had about

12 5.000 people working there, and we managed to get through the war without

13 a single incident. And I think that amongst the workers themselves there

14 was not a single argument that broke out, in fact, not a single brawl. And

15 I remember one detail particularly well, and that was when there was a

16 ceremony in Zenica that we organised. The ceremonial unveiling of the

17 statue of the Virgin Mary. We had helped have the monument erected. All

18 the people of Zenica gathered at the ceremony, and a small incident did

19 take place there, when all the people were rallied in front of the church,

20 in the church itself, and so on.

21 What happened was that a jeep turned up with armed soldiers who

22 fired several bullets into the air. Nobody paid any particular attention

23 to that, although normal people didn't like seeing this happening. But

24 several days after that, my deputy called me, and after the BH army and

25 HVO conflicts had begun, he remained cut off in the Republic of Croatia.

Page 14291

1 He was in Croatia at the time. And we just had 11 people who were not in

2 Zenica. They were on business trips in Croatia, Italy, Austria, or

3 wherever, and they were cut off from Zenica.

4 As we just had one mobile phone connection with the outside world,

5 he phoned me up and asked me what had happened at the church of St.

6 Ilijas. And I said that nothing special had happened, that I was there,

7 that I stood there with the Croats of Zenica, and with Predrag Andjelovic

8 and some other people and that everything passed by quite normally just

9 for that one small incident. He said that when he heard about it, it

10 affected him very adversely and that he was crying all the time and that

11 the news bulletin said that 16 or 17 Croats had been hanged to death in

12 front of the church.

13 So there you see what the strength that propaganda had and what it

14 did.

15 Q. Could you please now look at document 4.2, paragraph 2 of document

16 4. The number is 1423. And tell me whether you recognise this type of

17 propaganda that was to do more than weapons were able to do during the

18 war.

19 A. Yes. I think this was aimed at having the Croats move from where

20 they had been living until then. And we're talking about 1993, I think,

21 almost towards the end of the conflict between the army and the HVO, when

22 the situation came to a head, and this was designed to aggravate the

23 situation. And I have never been able to understand why people did things

24 like that.

25 Q. You said a moment ago, Mr. Kulovic, that you were there with

Page 14292

1 Friar Petar Andjelovic, who was the provincial priest, and that you were

2 there with other priests. But tell us your relationship to the -- with

3 the Croats in Zenica generally speaking. Did you have personal friends

4 among the Croats of Zenica, or rather, did you socialise with the

5 brethren, Catholic brethren in Zenica, Catholic priests in Zenica during

6 1993?

7 A. My relationship generally towards members of the church, whether

8 they be Catholics or Orthodox or whatever, and of course the Islamic

9 religious community, was a very special relationship. If we would attend

10 joint meetings, for example, or talks, then all three drove in the car

11 there with me.

12 As far as Brother Stipan is concerned, Friar Stipan, I had a

13 particular friendship with him, and the fires of the Church of St. Mark's

14 are of the Franciscan order and they always came out in favour of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and life in common. And I think -- at least I heard

16 from certain people that that is why his positions were a little

17 precarious and seen as precarious by part of the Croatian community. We

18 were regular guests, let me tell you, at their church, and we used all

19 opportunities we had to be together with them, to show them, to

20 demonstrate our affiliation to them, and very often we would organise

21 concerts of the philharmonic orchestra in the church or the choir. And as

22 I say, I was on very friendly terms with him.

23 Q. Mr. Kulovic, you started off by telling us how you succeeded in

24 dislocating the Yugoslav People's Army from the barracks in Zenica and you

25 mentioned the name of Mr. Mesic, who was commander of the civilian

Page 14293

1 protection unit. Can you tell us, please, whether you are on close terms

2 with Mr. Mesic, and is Mesic one of the people who had constant contact

3 with the Croatian population, and especially with Catholic priests, and a

4 friendly relationship with them in Zenica?

5 A. Yes. Mesic and I, Mr. Mesic and I are joined by ties of kumship,

6 and I think that our relationship was positive. We did what we could, as

7 far as circumstances permitted.

8 Q. Tell me, please: In Zenica, do you know whether any friars from

9 the church in Brajkovici ever came?

10 A. Yes. When there was an open conflict between the HVO and the Army

11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina - I don't know how and in what way - but all the

12 priests from Brajkovici, Guca Gora, and so on did come to the St. Mark's

13 church in Zenica. There were three other Catholic churches there, but we

14 came across those friars all in the St. Mark's church.

15 Q. We have heard testimony before this court by Mr. Mesic, and he

16 said that he brought those friars from Brajkovici there personally. Do

17 you know anything about that? Have you ever heard -- did you ever hear

18 that they were arrested in any way or taken into custody from Brajkovici

19 and Zenica?

20 A. I was at the St. Mark's church at least 20 or 30 times during that

21 period of time, and what happened, of course, was not a good thing. And

22 we discussed it in a very reasonable way. It was something that was out

23 of our hands. But I never heard of or had knowledge of them having been

24 mistreated in any way or taken into custody or taken prisoner or anything

25 like that.

Page 14294

1 Q. Thank you very much. Now, in view of the personal positions you

2 occupied and your friendship, tell me, please, whether Friar Stipan Radic

3 or the other friars ever told you of anything that could have presented a

4 major problem in Zenica, such as well-known fact, for example, that the

5 Croats were being taken off to the music school and mistreated there. Did

6 Friar Stipan Radic ever tell you anything like that?

7 A. Those of us who associated with the friars, and if I can say, the

8 intellectuals of Zenica, we held identical viewpoints on the war and we

9 would talk about the events that took place, and we always had identical

10 viewpoints on current events. I heard rumours going round about people

11 being incarcerated in the music school, but the building is in the centre

12 of town. Of course, I don't exclude the fact that there were people

13 incarcerated in that building. Before Mr. Hadzihasanovic arrived, in

14 fact, some people complained to me, Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Serbs, would

15 come to me and complain that they had been taken off for interrogation.

16 Because the commanders of some of the units, or people who were in charge

17 of security, tried to play at war, I would say, in that way. They tried

18 to intimidate people, people who they thought had money.

19 So things like that did happen in Zenica. Now, I heard rumours

20 about the music school, but let me say probably there were people

21 incarcerated there. But that they were mistreated there, that they were

22 killed, that there were a lot of them incarcerated there, I really can't

23 confirm that. Because the building was small anyway. It was located in

24 the centre of town. And had there been anything like that going on, I

25 think I would have heard about it, because people from there contacted me.

Page 14295

1 Q. Did anybody come to you to ask you to do something?

2 A. Yes. A Croat from Kakanj came to tell me about it. He didn't ask

3 me for my help in any way. But I know the man from before the war. He

4 supplied the mine with some of the technical resources we needed, and we

5 were in contact at the beginning of the war. He said he had been held in

6 the music school for some ten days and that he was released after that. A

7 month later, he opened a petrol station in Kakanj. But he didn't tell me

8 that there had been any mistreatment or abuse of any kind. I don't want

9 to hide any facts from this Court, but he did not tell me that there were

10 any problems. I learnt about things later on. I believe the man. I'm

11 sure he was incarcerated there, but that's all.

12 Q. And my last question: We heard testimony from Vlado Adamovic

13 before this Court. Had the people had these large-scale problems being

14 taken off to the music school and being mistreated, who would they have

15 contacted for assistance? Would they have contacted you, come to see you,

16 or come to see a judge, for example?

17 A. Well, I'm quite certain that since half the population was linked

18 in one way or another to the ironworks, of the 23.000 employees, 80.000

19 more were family members, for example. They had great confidence in me,

20 and I think they would come to me first rather than go to anybody else.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kulovic. I have no further questions for you.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And the other

24 Defence team.

25 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. We have no questions for

Page 14296

1 this witness. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution. I would like

3 to greet you, Ms. Benjamin. We haven't seen you for a long time. And

4 I'll give you the floor now.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

6 Mr. President, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

8 Q. Good afternoon, sir. My name is Tecla Henry-Benjamin and I am,

9 along with my colleague, representing the Prosecution in this matter. I

10 have just a few questions for you, and if at any moment you don't

11 understand what I'm saying or you'd like me to repeat the question, feel

12 free to do so and I'll oblige. Thank you.

13 We did go very fast, so I'll try to see how I can keep up.

14 First, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could you please

15 explain your position as of July 1992.

16 A. Around the beginning of July, at that time, I was already the

17 director of the entire Zenica ironworks. If you're interested in the

18 situation up to that date, I could explain the situation to you.

19 Q. In the interests of time, I would just give you the questions and

20 hopefully we'll get the answers.

21 Prior to July of 1992 - and correct me if I'm wrong - were you the

22 commander of the Ironworks Battalion for simply two months?

23 A. Yes, that's correct. For one month we were a unit without any

24 arms. The unit was used to take over the barracks, to take charge of the

25 barracks. Afterwards, the unit was armed, and under the command of the

Page 14297

1 regional staff, it was used in combat activity in Zenica. The combat was

2 in Visoko after that, and I was demobilised. And as this was necessary

3 for the company, I returned to the company.

4 Q. So would I be correct in saying that your life in the military was

5 rather short-lived?

6 A. Yes, absolutely.

7 Q. By the time General Hadzihasanovic had come to Zenica you were not

8 a member of the military; am I correct?

9 A. Yes, but since the corps command was in the vicinity, I had daily

10 contact both with Mr. Hadzihasanovic and with the other subsequent

11 commanders of the corps.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know a battalion by the name of

13 Zeljezara?

14 A. That's the battalion that was formed in April 1992, the battalion

15 that had no arms for a month and it was then used as a military unit for a

16 month. And I was then demobilised and returned to the company, where I

17 became its head. The unit continued to exist within the corps.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, in the beginning of 1993, January 1993, and more

19 specifically so, the 26th of January, 1993, could you please state for the

20 Trial Chamber what was the situation in Zenica at the time?

21 A. That was a period during which the freely formed units in 1992 --

22 well, we tried to place these units under the corps command. I don't

23 believe that this was fully successful. In the case of certain units they

24 managed to maintain a significant element of independence and they were

25 fiercely resistant to the idea of being placed under a single command. I

Page 14298

1 would also like to point out that in the case of some units, they weren't

2 placed under the corps command, right up until the end of the war. Some

3 units found very bizarre reasons for not cooperating.

4 Q. I think you probably misunderstood the question. My question was:

5 Could you describe for us, from the beginning of January 1993, January,

6 and more specific, around the end, the 26th of January, 1993, what was the

7 prevailing situation, what was the condition in Zenica? What was the

8 atmosphere like?

9 A. There were still a lot of units in Zenica that hadn't become part

10 of the corps. There were conflicts between the ABiH and the HVO, and

11 these conflicts were becoming more frequent. I don't really understand

12 why you're asking me about the 26th.

13 Q. Now I'm going to ask you, because I think you indicated to the

14 Trial Chamber that you were familiar with the Zenica area and what

15 transpired in Zenica. Am I correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If I were to say to you that the Prosecution alleges that there

18 was physical abuse and psychological abuse in Zenica in 1993, and in

19 particular, the Zenica music school, would you agree with me?

20 A. I would agree that there were individual cases of torture, of

21 violence, but I would not agree that this involved large groups of people.

22 I wouldn't agree that this was something that was done in an organised

23 manner.

24 Q. Would you agree with me if I say that Dusina is located in the

25 Zenica municipality? Would you agree with that?

Page 14299

1 A. Dusina is in the municipality of Busovaca, but that's not

2 important. It's in the vicinity of Zenica.

3 Q. Okay. So I'll accept that. It's in the vicinity of Zenica. And

4 being familiar with the Zenica area and Dusina being in the vicinity of

5 Zenica, could you please indicate to the Trial Chamber as much as you

6 know, only what you know, if anything at all transpired in Dusina in

7 January of 1993. And that is why earlier on I said to you specifically

8 around the 26th, to sort of zero in.

9 A. Yes. Perhaps I don't know all the details, but I have heard

10 stories that I don't doubt, stories according to which six Croats, six

11 civilians who were killed in the course of combat operations, and I also

12 heard that people had been tortured, et cetera.

13 Q. So you agree with me if I said all was not well in Zenica in

14 January of 1993 and thereafter? Would you agree with me?

15 A. I can't dispute that. I wasn't an eyewitness. I have to accept

16 that those are things that did happen.

17 Q. And I would ask you further: Would you agree with me when I say

18 that not only were you not an eyewitness, as you said, but also you were

19 not a member of any military body during that time? Correct?

20 A. That's correct. I wasn't a member of any military formations.

21 Q. Who, in your opinion, then, would you say was responsible for the

22 events that transpired in Dusina, in Zenica, in January of 1993 and

23 thereafter? Who, in your opinion?

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I thought that Defence counsel

25 would be rising to its feet. Please go ahead.

Page 14300

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't see how the

2 answer Mr. Kulovic provided -- well, given the answer that Mr. Kulovic

3 provided, he said that he wasn't a member of any military formation, I

4 don't see how Mr. Kulovic could answer this question as to who was

5 responsible for those events.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin.

7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, given the fact that the

8 witness himself said that he was very familiar with the Zenica area, that

9 he met with the general and he was very familiar with what was going on, I

10 think it's a very appropriate question. I take it, since the Trial

11 Chamber has not objected, I will ask the witness again.

12 Q. Who, in your opinion, at that time was responsible for the

13 conflict and the prevailing situation that went on in Zenica as of January

14 1993 and thereon?

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. You said that

16 you weren't a member of the army at the time, but you are very familiar

17 with the situation in Zenica. This question is really a borderline

18 question, because it's not directly related to what was said a while ago.

19 But as you're a prominent citizen of Zenica, did you have any knowledge

20 about what had happened in Dusina? Did you hear anything about it? What

21 were you told about it? Or do you not know anything about these events?

22 Since you had thousands of people working under you, perhaps you heard

23 about something. This seems to be what the Prosecution is implying. But

24 could you answer the question, in the interest of justice. We have to

25 decide on the issue of Dusina. What could you tell us about this? If you

Page 14301

1 know nothing, just say so.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard several stories from

3 various sources about Dusina. I can't say which sources I obtained such

4 information from. There are various sources involved. I heard that

5 crimes had been committed, but I really can't confirm that civilians were

6 killed. Similarly, I don't know who these individuals were. And if there

7 were such crimes, if such crimes were committed, I don't know which unit

8 might have been involved in them.

9 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's very clear.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. Sir, anything that you would have learnt in the Zenica area, in

14 particular, during the period January 1993 and March 1994 would have been

15 what you were told or what you heard; am I correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would it be correct to say, then, that during the period 1993 to

18 1994, you were not in a position to assist General Hadzihasanovic in any

19 way with respect to the army that he commanded?

20 A. My position was quite clear. I won't hide the good opinion I have

21 about Mr. Hadzihasanovic. But all I could do was speak to him about the

22 situation, about his position and my position, about the position other

23 people were in, and that was all.

24 Q. And subsequently, you would not be in a position to analyse

25 whether or not the situation was a difficult one for the general to

Page 14302

1 handle?

2 A. As I have already said, the situation was difficult, and I thought

3 Mr. Hadzihasanovic's task was an impossible one. I can also provide you

4 some information relayed through the media. There were addresses to the

5 president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the commander of the army. I

6 asked him, in the case of people who had come to Zenica without having

7 been invited there, in the case of people who weren't needed by that town

8 and in the case of people who were frightening all the people in Zenica, I

9 asked him to ensure that they left Zenica as soon as possible. And I

10 think I mentioned that Mr. Hadzihasanovic's position was a very difficult

11 one and that if politicians didn't help him and if clear positions weren't

12 defined, I said that the situation would be extremely difficult.

13 Q. The newspaper articles and reports that you just referred to, that

14 in itself, would you agree with me, is a form of propaganda, isn't it?

15 A. I don't think it was a matter of propaganda or that propaganda was

16 being spread for the sake of one group of people or one people. I

17 remember a public address, and on that occasion, foreigners probably

18 killed a humanitarian worker and wounded two others. The reaction was

19 very fierce, and the situation in Zenica was such that a request for aid

20 was made. I think that sending one person to Zenica and not offering an

21 overall form of aid couldn't help to resolve the difficulties that we were

22 encountering in Zenica.

23 Q. My learned friend showed you a document, DH1423, and it referred

24 to what you described as propaganda. And my question to you is this: How

25 do you assess when something is propaganda and when it's not?

Page 14303

1 A. Well, naturally, if you know what the actual situation is, what

2 efforts are being made, in a town where the conditions weren't good for

3 everyone, well, in such a case, then you may know that propaganda is at

4 stake. If someone says there's 16 people representing a church and this

5 doesn't reflect the actual situation, then this is propaganda. If an

6 order is issued to arrest people who really wanted to live together and

7 help everyone, then it's quite clearly propaganda, or this involves the

8 spreading of false information for the HVO or for the HDZ. As I said, if

9 someone says that 16 people are hanged before a church and this isn't

10 true, this is propaganda. So it might be difficult for people to

11 distinguish between propaganda and the actual situation.

12 Q. That's precisely the point. If somebody says that "I was

13 maltreated and ill-treated in the Zenica music school," do you analyse

14 that or assess it as propaganda?

15 A. That depends on the person who provides me with that information.

16 If I was told about this from an HDZ local politician, I would have been

17 suspicious. But if I heard about this from a citizen of Zenica or from

18 one of my employees or a family member, one of my employees or from one of

19 my family members, I would have believed such information.

20 Q. Justice Adamovic, of which my colleague referred to, testified

21 before this Court that several reports were made to him with respect to

22 detainees who were mistreated at the Zenica music school. Would you

23 consider that to be propaganda?

24 A. If Judge Adamovic said and had arguments to support it I wouldn't

25 consider that to be propaganda. I don't see why he would spread such

Page 14304

1 propaganda. But I think that Mr. Adamovic was a judge in the military

2 court, and he could process such cases.

3 Q. Several witnesses came before this Trial Chamber and themselves

4 testified of mistreatment and abuse in the Zenica music school, for

5 example. You were not a member of the military at the time. You were

6 just a director of an ironworks company. But you indicated to this Court

7 that, as far as you're aware, that was far from the truth. On what basis

8 did you make the statement that the testimony that was given is far from

9 the truth? On what basis?

10 A. I really couldn't say. I don't know who said that there was

11 torture. But the music school doesn't have the capacity for detaining

12 prisoners. One would have heard the sound of torture. The music school

13 is 20 metres from the court, 30 metres from the police station, from the

14 municipal building, and I must say that I have my doubts about such

15 statements. As I said, men who were arrested for stupid reasons, they

16 were taken away, they were interrogated, records of some kind were taken.

17 I felt that people were playing at war, et cetera. But as to what has

18 been stated about the music school, I can't confirm such statements.

19 Q. So, in truth and in fact, sir, you cannot really assist us with

20 respect to what happened at the music school. So in fact, you cannot say

21 that it is not true. It's sufficient for you to say you have your doubts,

22 am I correct, but to say that it's not true, you couldn't really tell this

23 Court that, could you?

24 A. If I had reliable information, then I would inform the Chamber of

25 the fact. Citizens in Zenica provided me with information. They were

Page 14305

1 involved in providing food, heating, et cetera, and they relied on the

2 company I was in charge of, and I would certainly have heard from them

3 that such things were happening.

4 Q. Are you aware, sir, that the HVO commander had written to

5 General Hadzihasanovic complaining about the treatment of the Croats and

6 the Serbs in Zenica? Are you aware of that?

7 A. I'm not aware of that, but I'd like to tell you about something I

8 do know about. I know --

9 Q. Before we go into what you know, can I just finish this part, and

10 then we'll go into what you know, please, so that we don't lose the train

11 of what's happening.

12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with the Chamber's permission,

13 could the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 519, please.

14 MR. DIXON: Your Honours, sorry to interrupt. I know that the

15 time is ticking on, but before the witness is asked to look at this

16 document, which he in all likelihood would not recognise, because it's not

17 one that involved his activities, as he has described them in 1993, but I

18 did want to object to this document being shown to the witness, because

19 this matter wasn't dealt with at all in the examination-in-chief, by

20 either the counsel for the first defendant or by us. We asked no

21 questions about these matters. And in our submission, there's no basis

22 for asking the witness about these matters. There might be other

23 witnesses who could answer these questions, but certainly not this

24 witness.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. A little -- a minor legal

Page 14306

1 issue. The Defence says that in the examination-in-chief, they did not

2 raise the issue that is referred to in this document. Before you're

3 granted leave to put your question to the witness, if leave is granted,

4 what is the purpose of this document? What are you seeking to establish

5 in relation to what the witness has said so far?

6 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, my learned friend raised the

7 issue of the protection of the Croats with the witness in her

8 examination-in-chief. Further, the witness has said, time and time again,

9 that the -- described the situation in Zenica, and he spoke to the fact

10 that he had his doubts as to whether or not certain things transpired in

11 Zenica in January of 1993 and thereafter, until March 1994. And he even

12 went further to say that if Judge Adamovic had received complaints, he

13 wouldn't doubt it, but he hadn't received any. And the purpose here is to

14 highlight to the witness the situation as it was in Zenica, even though he

15 was present and even though he was there, clearly he wasn't aware of

16 what's going on. And perhaps maybe if we were to show him a document by

17 the other side requesting some kind of assistance, maybe it may jog his

18 memory. Thanks.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We have two members

20 of the Defence who are rising to their feet at the same time. This must

21 be very important. You may go ahead.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that it is important,

23 because it steps out of all the frameworks of the right to

24 cross-examination and it goes beyond practice hitherto in this Tribunal.

25 The document in no way can refresh the witness's memory with respect to

Page 14307

1 what he was saying, and so I join in the arguments presented previously by

2 our colleagues.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Perhaps the problem is that my learned colleague got the number of the

5 document wrong, because this relates to Visoko and does not refer to the

6 situation in Zenica at all.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is it the right document, then,

8 Prosecutor? Because this document refers to the municipality of Visoko.

9 So have you got the right document or did you wish to make a comparison?

10 But then that complicates matters.

11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: That is exactly the point, Mr. President. I

12 wanted to be able to read, 1, 2, 3, 4, the fourth paragraph, the two lines

13 there, and compare it with the document that was used by my learned friend

14 for the witness to give us his interpretation of what transpired then, or

15 rather, what he knows transpired.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I never showed

17 the witness any similar document, anything along these lines, so I don't

18 know how my learned colleague is referring to what I asked the witness and

19 basing her question on that.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, madam Benjamin. The

21 Defence never showed a document of this type. But since we have the

22 difficulty, perhaps you could ask a question first and then link it up

23 with what you've been saying hitherto.

24 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Firstly, Mr. President, we wish to apologise.

25 The document was dated as 519, P519 in our documents. But I'm told by the

Page 14308

1 case manager that this is 591 and not 519. My apologies. That's the

2 first thing. We have a written --

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, we've lost almost ten

4 minutes over that.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: We won't allow you to lose any more minutes.

6 We're almost to the end. So I would withdraw the document from the

7 witness. And I will just -- I would just ask the witness to conclude for

8 me if, in his position as commander, as director of the ironworks, if he

9 thinks that he's in a position to explain to this Court fully what

10 transpired in Zenica in 1993 and March 1994.

11 A. I would like to say that the question asked me a moment ago is

12 going to help me to answer the question and explain the situation. Let me

13 say that I understood the situation in Zenica very well. My grandfather

14 was born there, my father was born there, I lived there, and I have two

15 children who are going to stay on and live there. So I have lived

16 together with the town. And I'd like to say that probably

17 Madam Prosecutor does not know the situation in town, what it was like;

18 whereas I do and I felt it on my own skin. I could breathe it and feel

19 it.

20 Up until March 1993, that's my second point, when the conflict

21 between the BH army and the HVO broke out, the position of the Croats in

22 Zenica was incomparably better than was the position of the Bosniaks. The

23 position taken by Mr. Hadzihasanovic was very difficult. He was being

24 accused, both by the Croatian side and the Bosniak side, and I know that

25 he was directly accused and blamed for the fact that the HVO had taken

Page 14309

1 over the towns of Zepce, Busovaca, and others, where the percentage or the

2 population ratio was roughly 50/50. And they considered that his efforts

3 to solve the situation peacefully led to the fact that all the inhabitants

4 of those towns who were not Croats were expelled, and that in the space of

5 just a few days, they all poured into Zenica.

6 Let me try and explain what my position was in Zenica until March

7 1993, briefly. I am certain that I helped people in Zenica. I helped the

8 Croats, perhaps even more than any political party was able to do, or any

9 military formation, for that matter, which I think had different

10 intentions vis-a-vis the Croats in Zenica.

11 The Zenica ironworks was a company which had money on its accounts

12 outside the country, and it took upon itself to supply the town with food,

13 to a certain extent. From 1992 until 1994, the company money was used to

14 buy and bring in to Zenica about 50.000 tonnes of food. That's one point.

15 Let me explain. Let me explain the difficulties we had in

16 importing this food, which was used for the entire Zenica population.

17 Q. Sir, without being rude in any way and without interrupting you,

18 time is against us, and as much as I think we would all like to hear the

19 history, my question was really, really specific. I just wanted to know,

20 not being a member of the military, if you felt that you were confident

21 enough to give an account or an analysis of what took place in Zenica

22 during the conflict in 1993 to 1994. Very specific and very short, to the

23 point. And if you could just answer that, then that will be sufficient.

24 A. Not about events on the battlefield, but as to events in town, the

25 situation in town and the relationships there, yes.

Page 14310

1 Q. But not events in the battlefield?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this ends the

5 cross-examination. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, additional

8 questions, Your Honour. There was just mistake which I think was put

9 right. A document on page 76, line 24, was denoted as P685, whereas -- or

10 rather, it was 685 and not 655, which is what it said in the transcript.

11 But I didn't want to interrupt my learned colleague to give that

12 correction.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions from me,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I see that there is

16 one -- document 1423. Would you like that tendered?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Mr. President. Thank

18 you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I address myself to

20 the Prosecution. The Defence is asking for the admission of document

21 1243 -- 1423, which is a propaganda document. It is number 4, and it is

22 an HVO document. 1423 is the number.

23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has objections

24 to DH1423, for the obvious reasons.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what are the obvious

Page 14311

1 reasons? Because it might not be that evident to the Judges.

2 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this document is -- this

3 witness is not the author of this document, in the first instance. The

4 witness was only able to give an assessment of what he read on the

5 document as what it is. And it is my opinion, or the opinion of the

6 Prosecution, that the proper foundation was not laid by the Defence in

7 order to have the document tendered.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the Judges will

9 give the matter their thought later on.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd just like to

11 repeat: The witness was in Zenica. He knew about the situation. He

12 quoted instances of propaganda that was used as a system. So all the

13 grounds upon which this Trial Chamber adopted documents previously are met

14 with this particular document, so I think it can be admitted into

15 evidence. And I'm surprised that my learned colleague raised the question

16 in the first place, because I'm sure there have been at least 900

17 documents that have been tendered into evidence without a witness, and I

18 think this is very clear grounds for having the document accepted. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We're going to

21 deliberate, and we'll be giving a ruling in due course.

22 Witness, you have understood that there are no further questions

23 for you. Your testimony has come to an end. You will be able to go home

24 quickly. I thank you for having come to the Tribunal and given us

25 valuable information on the situation that existed at that time. I would

Page 14312

1 also like to thank you for having answered the questions asked you, and I

2 wish you bon voyage back home, and of course best wishes for you at the

3 head of the company which you manage. Thank you.

4 I'm going to ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom now.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As for next week, let's hear

7 from the Defence first.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on Monday,

9 according to our schedule -- may we go into private session, please,

10 because we're going to mention witness names.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Private session, please,

12 Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in private session,

14 Mr. President.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14313

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We're in open session,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you wish to add

16 something.

17 MR. MUNDIS: If I could very briefly, Mr. President. You alluded

18 to this earlier this morning, and unfortunately, although she is not here

19 today or at this moment, the Prosecution would certainly like to put on

20 the record the fact that we certainly found working with Ms. Godart to be

21 a very good experience in terms of her professionalism and the hard work

22 and dedication that she brought, I think, to both parties in terms of

23 assisting us with this trial and the Prosecution thought on her last day

24 it was simply appropriate to point out for the record that certainly the

25 Prosecution, and I'm sure our colleagues from the Defence, would agree

Page 14314

1 that she will be sorrily missed in this trial and we all wish her the best

2 of luck and I would respectfully ask that that be passed on to her in the

3 event that she is not listening and following at this point in time.

4 Thank you.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I should fully like

6 to support what my learned colleague has just said. We endorse it. We

7 value highly the good relationship and assistance we have always received

8 from her during the trial, Ms. Godart, and we wish her all the best in her

9 new work in Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall convey your best wishes

11 to Ms. Godart in the next few minutes, and I'm sure she will appreciate it

12 highly. I apologise to the interpreters and technicians for keeping them

13 late today, but we could not act otherwise. We resume on Monday at

14 quarter past 2.00.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01

16 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

17 January 2005, at 2.15 p.m.