Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17924

1 Tuesday, 29 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case

8 number IT-01-47-T, The Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

9 Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

13 Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, assisted by Andres Vatter, our case manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, thank you.

16 Could we have the appearances for Defence counsel, please.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. For the

18 Defence of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, lead counsel, Stefane

19 Bourgon, co-counsel, and Alexis Demirdjian, legal assistant.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 And could we have the appearances for the other Defence team,

22 please.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic and our legal

25 assistant Nerman Mulalic.

Page 17925

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume with the

2 hearings on the 29th of March, 2005, after having had a UN holiday. Our

3 witness has been waiting since Thursday. We will call him back into the

4 courtroom. Could the usher please bring the witness into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]


7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, General. Just before

8 you entered the courtroom I was saying that we will now be resuming with

9 your examination, I will take this opportunity to greet everyone present,

10 Mr. Mundis, defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in and around

11 the courtroom.

12 We will be continuing with the examination-in-chief. I think

13 Mr. Bourgon concluded his examination-in-chief on Thursday so I will now

14 give the floor to defence counsel for Mr. Kubura who will now be

15 conducting their examination-in-chief.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

17 will probably conclude our examination-in-chief by --

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear Mr. Ibrisimovic.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Could Mr. -- could General

20 Karavelic have a look at his report, please.

21 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

22 Q. General, could you please have a look at the part of the

23 report 476 to 479, paragraphs 476 to 479, which concern the 7th Muslim

24 Brigade. In your report, you said that the 7th Muslim Brigade was

25 established by order from the Supreme Command Staff on the 19th of

Page 17926

1 November, 1992. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your report, you said that it was formed in the way that other

4 brigades were formed. It was mobilised in the same way that other

5 brigades were mobilised. It had similar or identical problems to those of

6 other brigades. However, that's not what I'm interested in. That is

7 already contained in the report that has been admitted into evidence.

8 What I'm interested this is the following: When it was formed in

9 November 1992, the brigade already had the title the 7th Muslim Brigade.

10 That was the name of the brigade. Is that correct?

11 A. That's what it says in the documents, yes.

12 Q. So by order of the Supreme Command Staff that name was given to

13 the brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. General, on the basis of the documents that you reviewed, are you

16 aware of the fact that brigades that had such names existed in other ABiH

17 corps?

18 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. And in the course of the war, all ABiH

19 corps had at least one Muslim brigade.

20 Q. Do you know whether the 7th Muslim Brigade was the first one in

21 the ABiH that was given that name, that was designated as the Muslim

22 brigade, or was there some other such brigade in some other corps?

23 A. I'm not certain, but I think that the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

24 was the first one that had such a name and it was formed in that way in

25 the ABiH, although there were probably other smaller units in corps that

Page 17927

1 perhaps had such a name, but I don't think there were any other brigades

2 with such a name before.

3 Q. In your report, it says that the first such brigade with such a

4 name was formed within the 5th Corps as the 101st Brigade?

5 A. If that's what it says in my report, then perhaps I have made a

6 slip, because the report was drafted on the basis of the documents I had,

7 so in that case it's correct.

8 Q. Would you have a look at footnote 107 which is on page 73 of your

9 report. Some brigades are referred to which were parts of other corps.

10 The 1st Podrinje Muslim Brigade, the 243 Muslim Light Brigade, the

11 1st Muslim Mountain Brigade, the 17th Muslim Brigade, et cetera.

12 A. Everything that is stated in the footnote is correct.

13 Q. General, do you know whether such brigades, called Muslim

14 brigades, existed as anti-fascist brigade in the course of the Second

15 World War too?

16 A. As far as I know, on the basis of the history I have studied, yes,

17 such brigades did exist and were part of the coalition fighting against

18 fascism. They were part of the anti-fascist coalition.

19 Q. A witness testified here, Professor Sehic, a professor of history,

20 who in fact confirmed that and said that in the Second World War several

21 brigades existed that were called Muslim brigades, and he mentioned the

22 16th Muslim Brigade which was the largest such brigade.

23 A. I think that that is correct. And as far as I know, such units in

24 the fight against fascism were very prominent units, units that had been

25 remarked and that were much appreciated, if I may put it that way, by the

Page 17928

1 political and military leadership and the anti-fascist coalition, and

2 their contribution to the fight against fascism was immense.

3 Q. I would say that the tradition of such brigades was preserved

4 after the Second World War within the framework of the former Yugoslavia?

5 A. I think that he is correct when he said that. According to what I

6 know, that is correct. And all nations and peoples in the former

7 Yugoslavia had the right to preserve their heritage and these traditions

8 from the peoples' liberation war.

9 Q. Mr. Karavelic, you were the commander of the 1st Corps at one

10 point in time in the course of the war. In the 1st Corps, was there a

11 brigade that was called a Muslim brigade?

12 A. In the 1st Corps of the ABiH, there was a plan to establish one

13 such unit at least. However, for various reasons, we didn't succeed in

14 doing so immediately. But this was only done at the beginning of 1994,

15 and one such brigade was formed at that point in time which was part of

16 the 1st Corps of the ABiH.

17 Q. Could you now clarify something for me: If there's an order from

18 the Supreme Command Staff and the brigade is called the 7th Muslim Brigade

19 or the 101st Muslim Brigade - it's not really important - can the brigade

20 commander or anyone else influence the name? Can he have it changed if

21 the command issues an order and says that the brigade should be given a

22 certain name?

23 A. The brigade commander and people further up the chain of command

24 can only make suggestions to change the name of a brigade. They can do

25 nothing more. The Supreme Command gives brigades their names.

Page 17929

1 Q. On the basis of the documents that you reviewed, Mr. Kubura

2 arrived in 7th Muslim Brigade towards the end of December 1992, and at the

3 beginning of 1993 he arrived there first as the assistant chief for

4 operations and training. He later became the Chief of Staff. And when he

5 was in that position, could he have had any influence, could he have

6 suggested that the name of the brigade be changed?

7 A. I can give you a broad answer. But very briefly my answer would

8 be, no, he could have no influence on the name of the brigade.

9 Q. I'm asking you this because Mr. Kubura arrived in the 7th Muslim

10 Brigade when it had already been established by order from the Supreme

11 Command Staff.

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Thank you. In the documents you have, could you have a look at

14 paragraph 477, in fact, in your report, where reference is made to

15 Mr. Kubura. We know from the documents that he was first the assistant

16 Chief of Staff, operations and training, in the December, 1992.

17 A. Yes. That's what it says in the documents.

18 Q. By order dated March 1993, Mr. Kubura became the Chief of Staff of

19 the 7th Muslim Brigade?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In August 1993, Mr. Kubura became the commander of the 7th Muslim

22 Brigade?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Karavelic, in the documents that you had at your disposal, did

25 you find any reliable evidence or any facts or anything else pointing to

Page 17930

1 whether Mr. Koricic, the commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade, left that

2 brigade and went abroad?

3 A. In all the documents that I had at my disposal, and they're right

4 behind me, and in many other documents that I had access to, I don't

5 believe that I came across any document that referred to this subject

6 among those documents.

7 Q. You didn't find a document that would say that this in fact

8 happened on the 1st of April, 1993?

9 A. No.

10 Q. General, in the documents that you saw, did you come across any

11 evidence pointing to the fact that Mr. Kubura was authorised to represent

12 the command of the 7th Muslim Brigade, Mr. Koricic? Is there any such

13 document and did you come across such a document?

14 A. In accordance with my previous answer, I think that in this case

15 too my answer would be the same. I didn't come across any documents that

16 referred to him representing the commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

17 Q. In the documents that you saw, did you come across any in which

18 Asim Koricic was authorised by his superior command to be absent from the

19 brigade?

20 A. I also -- I don't think that I saw any such documents either.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 7, line 12, it

22 should say Koricic, and according to the transcript it says Karadzic.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Karadzic.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. General, could you explain to us the procedure that is followed if

Page 17931

1 Koricic was appointed as the brigade commander. When the brigade

2 commander has to be absent for various reasons, what is the procedure that

3 is followed in accordance with military regulations?

4 A. According to the service regulations of the JNA, or rather

5 according to the provisions of those regulations that were adopted by the

6 ABiH, I think that when it's not possible for the brigade commander to

7 perform his duties, when it's not possible for any brigade commander to

8 perform his duties, the superior is duty-bound to draft a document, or

9 rather an order, in which the next person in the chain of command is

10 designated as the commander or perhaps some other officer so that this

11 officer can perform those duties for a certain period of time.

12 I think that if the period of time is a two-month period, then the

13 deputy or Chief of Staff has to perform those duties, if the deputy isn't

14 present, and it's not even necessary to draft any orders with regard to

15 that matter. However, if the period of time is over two months, then the

16 superior is duty-bound to draft an order on representing the brigade

17 commander for a certain period of time. Up to six months at the most.

18 This period of time can be up to six months at the most. But the superior

19 can extend this six-month period of time for another six months. But only

20 on one occasion.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to facilitate

22 this and to obtain some clarifications from the General, I would like the

23 witness to have a look at document P243. We have a sufficient number of

24 copies for everyone here.

25 This is P243. It's a decree of law on the ABiH dated the 1st of

Page 17932

1 August, 1992.

2 Q. General, have a look at Article 78, please of this decree.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 17 in the English

4 version.

5 Q. Have you found Article 78?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It says that an officer who is temporarily unable to perform his

8 duties is a signed representative.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In paragraph 3, it says being represented in accordance with one

11 and two can -- Article 1 and 2 can go on for about six months and, if

12 another officer takes such a decision, this period of time can be extended

13 to one year from the date on which the duty is assumed, or such duties are

14 assumed. That means that the Superior Command has to regulate this matter

15 by issuing an order on representing a commander if the commander of the

16 unit is absent. In this case, we're referring to brigade commander. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes. I think that that is quite correct.

19 Q. In the same article it says that this period of time can be

20 extended for another six months and in accordance with an order from a

21 superior officer, from a Supreme Command Staff. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When reviewing these documents, you didn't come across an order

24 regulating the situation had he Mr. Koricic left the brigade and when

25 Mr. Kubura was appointed as the representative of the brigade commander in

Page 17933

1 accordance with an order that had been issued?

2 A. I've already said that I didn't come across any such documents.

3 Q. Let's just clarify something. You didn't find a document stating

4 that Mr. Koricic was authorised to be absent from the brigade and you

5 didn't come across any documents in which an order was issued stating that

6 Mr. Kubura would be representing the brigade commander, nor did you come

7 across any documents stating when Mr. Koricic left the 7th Muslim Brigade.

8 A. That's quite correct.

9 Q. Please have a look at, in the same series of documents, the rules

10 of service in the ABiH, Article 14. In the Bosnian version it's page 50;

11 in the English version, it's page 39. It says that if a unit -- it refers

12 to cases when units are suddenly left without a superior officer.

13 General, have you found the article?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. "If a unit is left without a superior officer," have you found

16 that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you just clarify the following situation: If a unit is

19 suddenly left without a commander, there's a situation when units

20 suddenly -- is suddenly left without a commander. For example, a

21 commander dies or is killed.

22 A. I think that this article refers to extraordinary circumstances,

23 if the brigade commander is killed or dies or if he is captured,

24 et cetera. So it concerns unexpected events. And then the second person

25 in the chain of command has the duty to assume the duties of the brigade

Page 17934












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 17935

1 commander, or rather he has to command with the brigade. He has to

2 continue commanding the brigade. But the superior has to regulate this

3 situation by issuing an order as soon as possible.

4 Q. But this does not concern the situation that existed between

5 Mr. Koricic and Mr. Kubura in the 7th Muslim Brigade?

6 A. I wouldn't be able to place that within the context of this

7 article.

8 Q. Thank you very much. And now when we see that Mr. Kubura was

9 first assistant commander for operations and training and then an order

10 was issued in March pursuant to which he was appointed the Chief of Staff,

11 and in the indictment it is stated that Mr. Kubura represented a commander

12 as of the 1st of April.

13 My question to you is as follows: Would it be possible for

14 anybody to perform the same -- the two sets of duties in the same brigade

15 at the same time?

16 A. As I was studying documents, I also looked at the order pursuant

17 to which Amid Kubura was appointed the Chief of Staff at the same time he

18 was the deputy commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade. Pursuant to that

19 order, Brigadier Kubura had already been given two duties to perform,

20 irrespective of the fact that they may be integrated, conditionally

21 speaking, into one position or one set of duties.

22 Any further assignments, building on an already existing,

23 complicated position in my view is unacceptable for the following reason:

24 If somebody performs the duties of the commander of the 7th Muslim

25 Mountain Brigade and, if it was Brigadier Kubura, that means that he had

Page 17936

1 three sets of duties, which is unacceptable, according to any principles

2 of or doctrines of any of the militaries of the world.

3 Q. Thank you very much. As you were studying this documentation, you

4 saw that Mr. Kubura did not have any idea as to when Mr. Koricic might

5 return to the brigade?

6 A. I didn't come across any sources that would confirm that he did

7 have any knowledge as to that fact.

8 Q. His status as an officer in the 7th Muslim Brigade was finally

9 resolved when he was appointed a commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade which

10 was on the 6th of August, 1993; is that correct?

11 A. In legal terms, this would be the date when he was factually

12 appointed the commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade. However, at the same

13 time, this is the moment when the new Chief of Staff was appointed as well

14 as the deputy commander and other officers. Pursuant to this particular

15 order, he was appointed a commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade, but he was

16 also relieved of his former duties of the Chief of Staff and the deputy

17 commander of that brigade, and this is correct.

18 Q. This is precisely what I was going to ask you. Mr. Kubura was the

19 Chief of Staff until the 6th of August, 1993 when he was appointed the

20 commander of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

21 A. From my point of view, I believe that this is exactly what

22 happened. And as I'm looking at the situation from the point of view of

23 legal aspects, I would say that this is correct.

24 Q. At the moment when the brigade was given a new commander, when the

25 new commander was appointed, and that was in August 1993, wasn't

Page 17937

1 Mr. Kubura in the position to take the brigade over from somebody else

2 should there have been a handover from some previous commander?

3 A. Under all -- any circumstances, the answer would be yes, unless

4 the previous commander was either killed or captured.

5 Q. And now I would like to ask you about the events in the villages

6 of Miletici and Maline. Could you please look at paragraph 691 of your

7 expert report.

8 When it comes to Miletici, you said that you didn't find any

9 documents or evidence that would point to the presence of the 7th Muslim

10 Brigade on that particular day in Miletici, hence there is no

11 responsibility on the part of Mr. Kubura for the events in Miletici, and

12 you agreed with Mr. Reinhardt who confirmed that.

13 A. Yes. This may be seen in my paragraph 691. I have not come

14 across any relevant documents that would speak to the contrary.

15 Q. Did you find any documents among the documents that you studied,

16 pointing to the fact that the 7th Muslim Brigade or its command or the

17 battalion in Travnik requested any report on the events in Milici in 1993?

18 A. I don't think so.

19 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 721 of your report. When it

20 comes to the village of Maline, my question is the same: Among the

21 documents that you studied, did you find any evidence pointing to the fact

22 that the 7th Muslim Brigade was in Maline in June 1993?

23 A. Like in the previous case, the -- my answer is the same. I did

24 not find any relevant documents pointing to that fact.

25 Q. Your position is identical as the position of the military expert

Page 17938

1 Mr. Reinhardt who says that he did not find any relevant documents

2 pointing to the presence of the 7th Muslim Brigade on that particular day

3 in the village of Maline?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you find any documents pointing to the fact that the

6 7th Muslim Brigade, its command or its battalions are requested to send

7 any reports on the events in Maline in June 1993?

8 A. I don't think so.

9 Q. Thank you very much. General, can we please move on to the part

10 of your report talking about the events in Vares in November 1993 starting

11 with paragraph 833 of your report.

12 I will not repeat your words. Could you please look at

13 paragraph 834 and your conclusion with regard to the responsibility of

14 Mr. Kubura, with regard to the events in Vares in 1993.

15 You're saying that he did everything else -- everything possible

16 to prevent his subordinates from plundering?

17 A. Yes. This is what it says in paragraph 848.

18 Q. As you were studying the documents that you had at your disposal,

19 did you also study the report sent by General Alagic dated 8 November

20 1993. This is P449 in which it says as follows: "The plunder by all of

21 the formations that were present was prevented by the urgent intervention

22 of the OG East of the 7th Muslim Brigade and the Ministry of the

23 Interior." [As interpreted]

24 A. I believe that I read this document.

25 Q. Does this document point to the fact that the 7th Muslim Brigade

Page 17939

1 did their utmost to prevent plundering in November 1993 in Vares?

2 A. Yes, that is the case.

3 Q. Did you take into account the report by General Divjak dated

4 17th of November, 1993? This is P450. I repeat the date is 17 November

5 1993, although in the documents that you have it is obvious that the

6 7th Muslim Brigade left Vares much earlier.

7 In this report it says as follows: The units of the second corps

8 are in Vares, about 300 troops are there. And individual plunder in Vares

9 started once these units entered the town of Vares. And this report was

10 sent to the 3rd Corps for their information.

11 A. I believe that I read this document and I'm aware of its contents,

12 and I believe that this is the truth of the matter, if I may say so.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on line -- on

14 page 14, line 21, it should read: "OG Bosanska Krajina and military

15 police and the 7th Muslim Brigade." This is just for the record.

16 Q. Finally I would like to ask you, General: Do you know Mr. Kubura?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Were you his superior at any point in time?

19 A. I was his second in command.

20 Q. Did you have any dealings with Mr. Kubura at that time?

21 A. Yes. He was the -- one of the commanders on the strength of the

22 1st Corps. He was the commander of the 1st Muslim Brigade.

23 Q. And what experiences did you have with Mr. Kubura? How did you

24 perceive him at the time?

25 A. I apologise that I will maybe sound subjective. This is not any

Page 17940

1 kind of bias on my part, but I would like to say that he is a man who has

2 a lot of military experience; a man who has very high moral standards and

3 moral integrity; a man who makes a distinction between the good and the

4 evil; he is a patriot; he has a very broad understanding of society and

5 all the problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm saying this on purpose

6 because Bosnia-Herzegovina is a very complex society.

7 He always had very correct and very proper views of the society of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Bosnia-Herzegovina as an entity. He was a very

9 diligent, very hard working person. And so on and so forth.

10 Q. And what about the unit that was under his command in the

11 1st Corps?

12 A. I can say only this: I should only have been so lucky to have

13 established that unit even sooner.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have any

16 more questions for this witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm going to give the floor to

18 the Prosecution for their cross-examination. Cross-examination by

19 Mr. Mundis.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

22 Q. Good afternoon, General.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. For the record, sir, my name is Daryl Mundis and along with my

25 colleagues here today we represent the Prosecution in this case.

Page 17941

1 I have two other points I would simply like to clarify with you

2 before I begin. And the first is, sir, we did briefly meet when you

3 testified in the Galic case for the Prosecution. I don't know if you

4 remember, but I was in fact one of the Prosecutors in that case and we

5 did, on that occasion, meet very briefly in Mr. Stamp's office. And I

6 would also like to draw your attention to the fact that I believe it was

7 in the early summer of 2004, pursuant to an order of the Trial Chamber,

8 that the Prosecution call some additional witnesses in this case. I did

9 speak with you briefly on the telephone at which point in time you

10 informed me that you had been approached by Madam Residovic, and we then

11 terminated that phone conversation. But I just wanted to put that on the

12 record.

13 Before I commence with my questioning, sir, I would simply like to

14 indicate to you that my intention is not in any way to confuse you. And

15 if you don't understand any of the questions that I ask you, please feel

16 free to tell me that and I will rephrase the question so that you

17 understand exactly what it is that I'm asking you. Do you understand

18 that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, sir, I take it from the comments that you told the Presiding

21 Judge when you first began testifying more than a week ago that this is

22 actually the first time you've testified as an expert witness. Would that

23 be correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And General, just to avoid any confusion, when you testified for

Page 17942

1 the Prosecution in the Galic case, you were testifying as a fact witness,

2 that is, to things that you observed or things that you did as the

3 1st Corps commander. You were not testifying as an expert in that case.

4 A. Precisely so.

5 Q. I would like to focus first, sir, on the methodology, that is, the

6 means by which you produced the report that we have before us in the

7 current proceedings.

8 I believe in paragraph 8 of your report, you indicated that you

9 were first approached by the Defence for General Hadzihasanovic in May

10 2004. Would that be correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were still at that point in time on active duty in the

13 ABiH?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And, sir, at what point in time do you consider -- or were you

16 actually retained by the Defence for General Hadzihasanovic? That is,

17 when did you first agree to undertake this assignment as an expert?

18 A. I have already answered that. In legal terms I was still a member

19 of the BiH army, although my retirement was already in the pipeline and it

20 was just a matter of procedure and formality when I would stop wearing the

21 uniform. And this is just an addition to my previous answer. And after

22 the initial contacts in May 2004, very soon after that, at a second

23 meeting, I confirmed to Mrs. Residovic that I would, indeed, take on the

24 challenge.

25 Q. And, sir, approximately when was that second meeting where you

Page 17943

1 agreed to take on the challenge?

2 A. Very soon. Maybe 10 or 15 days later.

3 Q. So that was either also in May 2004 or sometime in early June

4 2004, to the best of your recollection?

5 A. Yes, let's say so.

6 Q. And what, sir, was your official retirement date from the army?

7 A. According to the documents, it was on the 31st of August, if I'm

8 not mistaken.

9 Q. Now, sir, at the time that you accepted, as you put it, the

10 challenge -- and I know how much work goes into producing these reports,

11 at the time you accepted this assignment or challenge to serve as an

12 expert for the Defence, did you, in your mind, have any doubt as to the

13 innocence of the two accused in this case?

14 A. I would sooner say that I did not have any doubts, but I can't

15 actually say either yes or no, because I did have certain doubts. My

16 position was rather neutral. I accepted this challenge because I wanted

17 to see what I would come across and, through my hard work and through my

18 analysis of the documents, I came up with my expert report.

19 I don't know to this very day whether these two are guilty or not.

20 I'm just trying to show you through the documents and to explain to the

21 Trial Chamber the military steps and the military actions, the actions and

22 steps of a commander in the given circumstances that prevailed at the

23 time. I'm trying to explain why things were done in a certain way and not

24 in another way, whether things should have been done in that particular

25 way, and how things were being done at that time, without any documents,

Page 17944

1 without any orders, because they were just done as a result of the

2 situation that prevailed at any given moment.

3 Q. General, at paragraph 8 of your report, you write that you were

4 asked to --

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would

7 kindly ask the witness to repeat the beginning of his answer, which is on

8 page 16, line 13. It would be very good for the witness to repeat the

9 answer in his own language, because the answer did not come out very

10 clear.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, could you please

12 repeat your question. Could you maybe rephrase it? Can you put it in

13 such a way so as to avoid any confusion? This question is on page 16,

14 line 13.

15 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just the very

16 beginning of the witness's answer, the rest is clear. However, the first

17 two sentences, I don't think that what is recorded in the transcript

18 really represents what he said in his own language.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, page 16, line 13, according to the

20 English transcript, is Mr. Ibrisimovic's direct examination. I'm not sure

21 exactly what question, if it's simply the previous question...

22 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. President. My

23 LiveNote was a bit delayed, so I don't have the same page number and the

24 same line number. It is page ...

25 MR. MUNDIS: If it is simply the preceding question, I can

Page 17945












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17946

1 certainly rephrase that question.

2 Q. General, let's go back to the question you had just answered and

3 let me try this in a slightly different way.

4 At the time you began or you were retained to produce your expert

5 report, did you have any beliefs with respect to whether the two accused

6 in this case were guilty or innocent of the charges in the indictment?

7 A. Now I'm more confused by this question than I was by your previous

8 one. I was informed of the main elements and facts of the indictment.

9 However, I did not give myself the right, nor did anybody ask me to do

10 that, nobody ever instructed me as to whether I should form an opinion of

11 their responsibility.

12 And my answer would be that I took on this challenge to see, since

13 my retirement was already in the pipeline and I was supposed to leave the

14 BiH army and this was a transition period for me and this was a new

15 engagement, something that would fill that transition period. And this

16 gave me an opportunity to see what it was like to be an expert. I just

17 was curious to see what I would come across. I came across a host of

18 documents, and based on all these documents and my conversations with some

19 other professionals, I drafted my report, and my answer would continue

20 along the lines of the answer already given to you.

21 Q. Let me ask you a couple of follow-on questions, sir. Page 21,

22 line 4 you say: "I was informed of the main elements and facts of the

23 indictment." And my question to you, sir, is, at any point in time while

24 you've been engaged in this process of producing and writing your report,

25 did you actually read the full text of the indictment against the two

Page 17947

1 accused?

2 A. I did read it.

3 Q. Now, sir, you write at paragraph 8 in your report that you were

4 asked to replace another former ABiH general who had been retained by the

5 Defence in 2002, but who was no longer available due to personal reasons.

6 Again, this comes from paragraph 8 of your report.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, the name of your former colleague that was

9 initially retained and whom you replaced?

10 A. General Sead Delic.

11 Q. And sir in paragraph 10 of your report, you indicate that you

12 requested to meet with the former military expert.

13 Before I get to that I believe the transcript, line 6, page 22, it

14 says General Sad Gailic. Can you please spell the name of the initial

15 expert retained by the Defence for the transcript.

16 A. S-e-a-d D-e-l-i-c.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 Now, sir, let's turn to paragraph 10 of your report where you

19 state that you requested to meet with the former military expert, Sead

20 Delic who had been retained by the defence. My first question is: Did in

21 fact you meet with General Sead Delic?

22 A. Yes, I did meet with him. I saw him or had contact with him on a

23 number of occasions. And he had already done some of the work, in terms

24 of taking or gathering correct information from the census, the population

25 census, from 1990, and I came across a lot of errors, as I had to do that

Page 17948

1 part of the work again.

2 Q. Now, General, you said you met with him on a number of occasions.

3 Can you give us a rough approximation as to how many times you met with

4 General Sead Delic?

5 A. I think that we saw each other about twice, and we spoke to each

6 other over the phone between five and ten times.

7 Q. And, sir, --

8 A. And I even asked him to bring me his book, which he brought to my

9 office later on, a book that he had published two or three years before

10 then.

11 Q. Do you recall, sir, the title of that book or the subject matter

12 of that book?

13 A. That book was, in fact, his master thesis that he defended at the

14 university of political science, the faculty of political science. And

15 the title of the book -- or the book was in fact about the role of all

16 international bodies that were present in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

17 course of the war. And I can't remember the title of the book now, but I

18 do have it at home.

19 Q. Now, sir, at the time -- in mid-2004 when you took over this

20 assignment from General Sead Delic, had he commenced drafting a report?

21 A. Part of it, yes. I'd say that he had started working on a minor

22 part of it.

23 Q. And as part of your preparations for taking over this assignment,

24 did he provide you with his -- the part that he had written? Or did you

25 read it or review it, or in any way incorporate his work into this report

Page 17949

1 that you've produced?

2 A. Yes. But because the questions were subsequently amended, most of

3 what he had done was just irrelevant. And there was a very small part

4 that had to do mostly with the calculating of the movement of a population

5 in Central Bosnia. This is the part that I used to a certain extent,

6 although I had to make certain changes.

7 Q. Let me turn now, sir, to paragraph 15 of your report in which you

8 state that the cut-off date for new material that you reviewed was

9 17 December 2004. I simply want to clarify with you whether you reviewed

10 any of the trial transcripts or exhibits that were admitted after the

11 17th of December 2004.

12 A. Are you asking me whether I had a look at such documents or rather

13 whether I read such documents?

14 Q. I'm asking you, sir, let me be more precise. I'm asking you

15 whether you relied on any of the testimony that was given after the 17th

16 of December, 2004, or you relied on any of the documents that were

17 admitted into evidence after 17 December 2004 in producing the report.

18 A. I read most of the transcript of the military expert, General

19 Reinhardt. I read quite a large part of the transcripts of the -- the

20 testimony of certain witnesses. I'm not sure whether that was up until

21 the 17th of December or after the 17th of December. I couldn't provide

22 you with a precise answer to that question.

23 Q. Let me ask you this then, sir. In paragraph 15 of your report,

24 you indicate that the cut-off date for new material that you reviewed was

25 17 December 2004. And my question is, if that statement, in paragraph 15,

Page 17950

1 which you also referred to in paragraph 21, you refer to 17 December

2 December 2004 -- if in fact that was the cut-off date for the material

3 that you reviewed. Whether you read the material after that date or not

4 is a different question. But my question is, the evidence that was

5 presented up until the 17th of December, 2004 seems to be what you're

6 telling us is the cut-off date.

7 A. I don't think so. I also read the summary reports of witnesses

8 after the 17th of December, too.

9 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: With respect -- and again you

10 might want to note in paragraph 21 of your report, you make reference to

11 the testimony of 98 Prosecution witnesses and 26 Defence witnesses. And

12 my question, sir, is: Did you read the transcripts of the testimony of

13 those 98 Prosecution witnesses and 26 Defence witnesses?

14 A. I read in detail Reinhardt's five-day report. And, as I have just

15 said, I read summary reports, the most important parts that had been

16 extracted from the witnesses' testimony. But I did not read in detail

17 transcripts of the testimony of all the witnesses.

18 Q. And these summary reports, who produced them?

19 A. The office -- Mrs. Residovic's office, I believe, and

20 Mr. Ibrisimovic's office.

21 Q. With respect to General Reinhardt's five-day testimony, you read

22 the full transcripts of those five days?

23 A. Yes. And there were about 150 pages of that testimony, I think.

24 From Monday to Friday.

25 Q. And, sir, what language were the transcripts, these 150 pages,

Page 17951

1 what language did you read them in?

2 A. I read General Reinhardt's testimony, or the transcript of his

3 testimony in English, whereas I read the testimony of other witnesses in

4 the Bosnian language.

5 Q. And, sir, when you say "I read the testimony of other witnesses in

6 the Bosnian language", are you talking about the summaries that were

7 produced by the attorneys for the Defence?

8 A. That's probably what it was. I'm not sure.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. This might be an

10 appropriate spot for the first technical break.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll have our

12 technical break now. It's 3.30. We will resume at about five to 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 3.55 p.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. General Karavelic, before the break we were talking about the

18 transcript and summaries of testimony that you reviewed in preparing your

19 report and I do have a few follow-up questions, just so that we're clear

20 as to what testimony or transcripts you looked at.

21 You told us, sir, that you read the trial transcripts of the

22 Prosecution expert General Klaus Reinhardt and other than that you read

23 summaries. And my question, sir, is: Other than General Reinhardt's

24 testimony, transcript testimony, did you read the full transcripts of any

25 of the other witnesses, whether Prosecution or Defence?

Page 17952

1 A. I didn't read the full transcripts of the witnesses.

2 Q. Now, these summaries, can you tell us approximately how long the

3 summaries were of the witnesses that you did review?

4 A. Well, altogether the transcripts consisted of about 100 or 150

5 pages.

6 Q. Now, sir, when you use the word "transcript" - or at least it's

7 translated to me as "transcript" - are you talking now about the summaries

8 that were produced by the Defence?

9 A. Not the original transcript, such as in the case of General

10 Reinhardt. I'm referring to the summaries.

11 Q. So the summaries produced by the Defence of the 98 Prosecution

12 witnesses and 26 Defence witnesses ran to about 100 or 150 pages of

13 summarised testimony. Is that your recollection?

14 A. I mentioned a number, but I can't really confirm that, because

15 there were a lot of documents that I read and then there were these

16 documents that have been registered. I read them over a long period of

17 time, but there were a lot of pages. There was a lot of material that

18 related to the summaries. I read a lot.

19 Q. But again you told us that the summaries were 100 to 150 pages, is

20 that, to the best of your recollection, how much material you read with

21 respect to these summaries?

22 A. Well, that would be my assessment.

23 Q. You told us, sir, that the summaries were produced by the

24 attorneys. Do you have any further elaboration as to who produced these

25 summaries or how -- for example, who gave them to you?

Page 17953

1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

2 THE WITNESS: I don't know who made them. All I know is that I

3 read them.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon.

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

6 witness never said the summaries were prepared by the Defence. I would

7 like that to be clear for the transcript. They weren't prepared by

8 Defence counsel.

9 Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you have heard what

11 Defence counsel has just said. They said that Defence counsel did not

12 prepare the summaries.

13 MR. MUNDIS: If you give me a moment, Mr. President, I believe the

14 witness said they were prepared by the advocates. I asked him -- again,

15 my transcript is -- the time 15:28:31 seconds. I asked these summary

16 reports, who produced them. And the witness's answer was: "The office,

17 Mrs. Residovic's office, I believe, and Mr. Ibrisimovic's office." But I

18 will ask a follow up question.

19 Q. You've said, sir, that you don't know who produced the summaries;

20 is that correct?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Who gave you the summaries?

23 A. I think that I received them in the office, from the team.

24 Q. And when you say "in the office," what office are you referring

25 to?

Page 17954

1 A. I'm referring to Mrs. Residovic's office.

2 Q. And, sir, when you say "from the team", who are you referring to?

3 A. To a number of individuals working on General Mustafa Polutak [as

4 interpreted].

5 Q. And General Mustafa Polutak was or is an investigator working for

6 the Defence team of General Hadzihasanovic; isn't that correct?

7 A. I can't confirm that. I had contact with him, but as to what he

8 does, I don't know. I assume that that is the case.

9 Q. Sir, where did you physically prepare this report and review these

10 documents? Did you work from an office at home? Where did you

11 physically produce this report and review the numerous documents?

12 A. Mostly I worked at home with my assistants and I would go to

13 Mrs. Residovic's office as well, most frequently, and I would spend days

14 reading documents that they gave to me. And I spent less time in

15 Mr. Ibrisimovic's office.

16 Q. Let me return for a moment to the testimony, the trial transcript

17 evidence of General Klaus Reinhardt. But before I do that, sir, let me

18 ask you this: You told us on the first day of your testimony that among

19 the different courses you attend were some that were held in Garmish; is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And those courses in Garmish in Germany were at the George C.

23 Marshall Center run by the United States Armed Forces; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you at any point in time, while you were a student at the

Page 17955

1 George C. Marshall Center in Garmish, meet General Klaus Reinhardt?

2 A. I don't know whether I did, but that's possible.

3 Q. Okay. Now, earlier, sir, you told us that - and this was at 1529

4 hours earlier this afternoon - there were about 150 pages of that

5 testimony, referring to General Reinhardt's five-day testimony. Are you

6 sure that it was 150 pages?

7 A. I'd sooner say there were far more pages, but the number of pages

8 was about identical to the number of pages that my report has -- or rather

9 about twice as long as my report. I'd say though far more pages.

10 Q. Let me ask you this, because I checked during the break, sir, and

11 General Reinhardt's testimony -- which occurred from 3 through 7 May 2004

12 in English runs to 544 pages. Is it possible, sir, that you read 544

13 pages of testimony of General Reinhardt, in English?

14 A. In my previous answer, I was thinking of one binder, but in fact

15 there were two. In one binder there was three days of his testimony, and

16 in the other binder, two days of his testimony. And I read most of it,

17 not to say 100 percent.

18 Q. Okay. Now, let's return, sir, to the summaries of the other

19 witnesses. Do you recall, sir, or do any names stick out in your memory

20 as to any of the other witnesses who testified and whose summary of

21 evidence you recall reading?

22 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps before you answer that, Mr. President we

23 might want to go into private session in the event that any of the

24 witnesses were protected.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar, let's go

Page 17956












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17957

1 into private session.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17958











11 Page 17958 redacted. Private session.















Page 17959

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're in open session.

25 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Mr. President.

Page 17960

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At home I read about the Sefer

2 Halilovic case, because of my possible engagement in that case. And I was

3 sitting at my computer and I was following the entire case, and I would

4 download those things that could be downloaded. I was also reading papers

5 every day, and I cut out those articles that referred to the work of the

6 Tribunal. I compiled all of that and I came up with my expert report.


8 Q. Okay. Now, General, you've made reference to the Halilovic case,

9 and my question is focussed precisely on this trial, that is the case

10 against General Enver Hadzihasanovic and Brigadier Amir Kubura. Did you

11 also follow these court proceedings on the Internet? Did you listen to or

12 observe or watch witness testimony being broadcast over the Internet in

13 this trial?

14 A. Only partly. Not all of this. Not all of it.

15 Q. Can you recall or give us more specifics as to how frequently you

16 watched these proceedings and/or which witnesses testified or which events

17 were being described during the time periods you followed the proceedings

18 over the Internet?

19 A. Again, it's very difficult for me to give you a precise answer.

20 When I log on my computer, the connection breaks up. By the time I log on

21 again, I get a different witness. My computer is very slow. And it was

22 my -- I derived satisfaction from following these cases. And I also

23 wanted to do it for several reasons, for a number of reasons, and I really

24 wouldn't be able to give you any exact number. I might be mistaken. I

25 can't rely on my memory for that, I'm afraid.

Page 17961

1 Q. With respect to the frequency, sir, can you tell us on average,

2 did you follow the proceedings once a day, once a week, once a month?

3 Were there certain proceedings that you followed more intensely than

4 others?

5 A. In very simple terms, I log on and whatever happens, I follow it.

6 I just come across things that are on-line at the time and I read things,

7 I listen to things, that's what I do.

8 Q. Do you recall or do you have a list of any of the documents that

9 you downloaded from the Internet with respect to this case?

10 A. I would have to go back home. I would have to look at all the

11 papers that still remain that have not been destroyed or shredded in the

12 meantime, and only then would I be able to give you a more precise answer

13 to that question.

14 Q. General, I would like to turn now to the exhibits and other

15 documents that you have reviewed. If you could please turn to

16 paragraphs 21 and 22 of your report, I have a few questions.

17 In paragraph 21, you make reference to 939 exhibits introduced by

18 the Prosecution, more than 1.640 exhibits presented by the Defence for

19 General Hadzihasanovic and 26 exhibits presented by the Defence for

20 Brigadier Amir Kubura. And in paragraph 22 you say: "I have read all of

21 the above material, from which I selected that which I found to be

22 relevant to the issues which I was asked to address."

23 And my question, sir, is: Did you read all of these exhibits as

24 described in paragraph 21? Or did you review them and only read those

25 which you believed were most important?

Page 17962

1 A. I would really like to be very precise in my answer; however, my

2 answer would be, yes, I read most of it. I read two-thirds of it. Some

3 of the things I just reviewed, I skimmed through, as I believed that this

4 was not important. But I can't tell you exactly how much of that material

5 I only reviewed. It's impossible.

6 Q. In undertaking, sir, the exercise with respect to these exhibits,

7 did anyone in any way suggest to you which exhibits were more important

8 than others, or did anyone assist you in prioritising these exhibits?

9 Than others? Or did anyone assist you in prioritising these exhibits?

10 A. I was told how many documents there were presented by either the

11 Defence or the Prosecution and I was told that I was supposed to read all

12 of these documents. And it was up to me to read all of them, after having

13 been faced with the questions that I was supposed to answer. It was up to

14 me to decide whether some of them were relevant or not. I had my own way

15 of prioritising documents which I focussed on in the light of some

16 particular questions. For example, I singled out some seven or eight

17 documents issued by the Republika Srpska army or by the HVO, just by way

18 of example, which sent each of the documents and directly cooperated in

19 terms of assisting each other with logistics, with artillery support, with

20 taking over each other's lines and so on and so forth.

21 I can even tell you which documents I am referring to when they

22 were produced when they can be located. This is the type of lists I had

23 when I was drafting my report. This is the way I singled out some of the

24 documents for which I deemed that they were of relevance for my report.

25 Q. But just so we're clear then, General, you personally determined

Page 17963

1 which documents were important and which weren't. No one assisted you in

2 identifying or prioritising the exhibits that you were provided with?

3 A. I didn't have anybody working directly on that. However, I had

4 contacts with some people that I worked with and some of them would, from

5 time to time, draw my attention to a particular document that they

6 believed was of particular importance.

7 Q. Now, sir, can you tell us who these people were that you worked

8 with who would from time to time draw your attention to particular

9 documents? Who were you referring to?

10 A. Again, the answer is the same as was -- to one of your previous

11 questions, the person in question is General Mustafa Polutak.

12 Q. Other than General Mustafa Polutak, did anyone else draw your

13 attention to any particular documents from among the exhibits that you

14 were provided with?

15 A. I had a lot of conversations with Mrs. Residovic, Mr. Ibrisimovic,

16 Mr. Bourgon. However, I can't pinpoint anything and say that anything was

17 of particular importance.

18 Q. Let me move on to a slightly different but related subject, which

19 is also set forth in paragraph 21 of your report. You state: "I have

20 also relied on proposed exhibits by the Defence for General Enver

21 Hadzihasanovic and the Defence for Brigadier Amir Kubura."

22 And my question to you, sir, is: Do you have a list of the

23 proposed exhibits that you relied upon in producing your report?

24 A. Are you referring to the list of these documents?

25 Q. Well, let me try to rephrase this. Sir, in paragraph 21 of your

Page 17964

1 report you make a distinction between the 939 exhibits introduced by the

2 Prosecution, the more than 1640 exhibits presented by the Defence for

3 General Hadzihasanovic and 26 exhibits presented by the Defence for

4 Brigadier Amir Kubura and then go on to say: "In addition, I have also

5 relied on proposed exhibits by the Defence for both accused."

6 And my question is: With respect to the proposed exhibits, do

7 you have a list of those documents that you relied upon in producing this

8 report?

9 A. Again, I cannot be precise in my answer. I know that we spoke

10 about these documents, but I can't give you their list. I don't have such

11 a list. And for these documents here, all of them, the three figures that

12 you have mentioned, I have a list of those documents.

13 Q. So that we're clear then, you have a list of the exhibits up until

14 17 December 2004 that you relied upon in producing your report, but you do

15 not have a list of other proposed exhibits that were provided to you and

16 which you relied upon in producing your report; is that correct?

17 A. More or less correct. I did talk about some documents that could

18 be called or that could fall into that category. However, I can't confirm

19 that these were those documents. I don't have a list of these documents

20 nor do I know whether they have been tendered into evidence. I don't have

21 such a confirmation.

22 Q. General, do you have a list of all the documents that you reviewed

23 or read in producing this report? Do you have like a master list of all

24 the documents that you looked at, whether they were provided to you, or

25 whether you downloaded them, or whether you clipped them out of a

Page 17965

1 newspaper? Do you have any such master list of the material that you

2 relied on in producing this report?

3 A. The documents that I am pointing to at the moment -- and let me be

4 clear: All the documents that were registered with the court and which

5 were represented by any of the sides, I have a list of those documents.

6 As for the other things which were the product of my resourcefulness, my

7 downloading them or cutting them out or obtaining them from any other

8 source, no, I don't have such a list. I never compiled such a list. In

9 my footnotes, you can find the additional things that I used. I believe

10 that my footnotes may partially answer your question. However, besides

11 the documents that are behind me and the footnotes, I don't have any other

12 lists of the documents that I used for my report.

13 Q. Okay. Let me turn now, sir, to the assistance that you received

14 in producing this report. You told us, on Monday of last week, that is

15 the 21st of March, 2005, page 44, lines 4 through 11, that you relied upon

16 three assistants. You indicated a typist, someone who helped you with

17 computer graphics, and it's unclear from the transcript what role was

18 played by the third person. And I'm wondering if you can tell us what

19 type of assistance the third person provided to you.

20 A. The key personnel was the guy called Faris Fadzan, who was in

21 charge of my annexes or, in other words, he was in charge of computer

22 work, because I am not very well versed in computers.

23 The second person -- do you want names?

24 The second person was the typist, but it was not always the same

25 person. For the most part, it was one person. And the third person was

Page 17966

1 the person who drew up all the topographic maps. That was the person who

2 drew up topographic maps using geographic maps, not the computer. It was

3 not the computer plotting of topographic maps. Their names are Faris

4 Fadzan, Alma Kadric, and Midhat Sarac. Midhat Sarac is an expert for

5 drawing topographic maps. Faris Fadzan is an expert in IT, and Alma

6 Kadric, who was my typist throughout most of my work.

7 Q. And can you tell us, sir, who these three individuals were

8 employed by in assisting you in these capacities?

9 A. I employed them. Because within of them is also retired and the

10 other two worked outside their working hours mostly during the weekends.

11 Q. Now sir also on the 21st of March 2005, that is the first day of

12 your testimony a week ago yesterday, page 44, lines 9 through 11, you

13 said: "I also received a lot of assistance from many other individuals in

14 terms of using documents from the archives of the federation army,

15 et cetera, et cetera."

16 Can you elaborate upon that answer that you gave? What did you

17 mean by "using documents from the archives of the federation army"?

18 A. Let me give you an example. I wanted on two or three occasions to

19 look at the zones of responsibility of various corps and how they changed

20 over time. And this could not be found on any of the existing maps. Then

21 I asked for some topographic maps from the archives of the BiH army and I

22 did that through General Polutak. I consulted these topographic maps and,

23 after that, I used the information that I obtained from those topographic

24 maps in order to compile my annexes.

25 Q. Sir, other than topographic maps, did you make any requests for

Page 17967












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17968

1 documents from archives of the ABiH or from any other Bosnian government

2 archives?

3 A. I did not request any particular documents. Mustafa Polutak was

4 the one who had the list of documents that were registered with the

5 Tribunal. And I did not find it necessary. For example, when it comes to

6 the questions put to me by Mr. Ibrisimovic, I asked -- I was asked whether

7 there was an order for the replacement or appointment of Brigadier Kubura.

8 And my answer was there isn't. On some occasions I double-checked that

9 with some other persons. I received the same answer, and I was able to

10 close the door on such a particular question. I did not need to look any

11 further. I had my answer.

12 Q. And when you say that you double-checked information with other

13 persons, can you tell us, if you recall, the identity of any of these

14 persons and where they were employed?

15 A. Most often those were people who were retired a long time ago, or

16 recently I also spoke to some of the active servicemen and so on and so

17 forth. I would ask them whether this or that brigade was really

18 established at a certain time or was it just something that existed on

19 paper. This is more or less the subjects that I discussed with them. For

20 example, I would ask them what the situation was in Vitez in June 1993.

21 I'm just giving you examples. I had such conversations with people, but

22 these conversations were simply my conversations with these people, and I

23 cannot use their names to tell you this or that person told me this or

24 that.

25 However, based on the -- these conversations and all the things

Page 17969

1 that we have mentioned, I was able to compile my expert report that I

2 totally stand by.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17970











11 Pages 17970-17973 redacted. Private session.















Page 17974

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 17975

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are now in open session,

2 Mr. President.


4 Q. Let me ask you now, sir, about the specific assignment that you

5 received in producing this report. Again, a week ago yesterday on the

6 21st of March, 2005, at page 47, lines 10 through 13, you told us that

7 shortly after you accepted this assignment, you were provided with the

8 first version of the questions that you were asked to answer.

9 Do you remember testifying about that eight days ago?

10 A. Yes, I remember that.

11 Q. Now, sir, I believe you've told us earlier this afternoon that you

12 accepted this assignment to produce this report some time in May or June

13 2004; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you give us a rough approximation of the time period that you

16 received the first version of the questions that the Defence asked you to

17 answer?

18 A. I could put it in my own words. After I accepted this challenge,

19 I was immediately presented with a draft of the questions and of the

20 chapters that my predecessor, General Sead Delic, had already formulated

21 to a certain extent. However, at the same time I was immediately told

22 that there would be corrections. But I was told there was a lot of

23 material, a lot of questions that would not be changed, and I was told

24 that I could start working immediately, which I did.

25 I can't say when exactly, but in two cases, and to a certain

Page 17976

1 extent in the third case too, questions were amended in July or August

2 there were amendments. I think the first time I was asked was in

3 September. I was asked to provide a rough sketch so that I could speak to

4 Mr. Stefane when he came to Sarajevo, or perhaps it was in October. I

5 can't provide you with an exact date now. And then all these

6 shortcomings, errors were removed, corrections were made and then 15 or 20

7 days later Stefane would come to Sarajevo again and more corrections were

8 made, and we continued to work in this way until we established the date,

9 the 17th of December. And then by February of this year the final version

10 was to be provided. I amended my report three or four times, at least.

11 Added to it. Transformed certain thoughts, et cetera, et cetera. The

12 work that requires continual effort, it's necessary to focus on such work,

13 to ensure that the report satisfies certain criteria.

14 Q. An General, when you make reference in your last answer to

15 Mr. Stefane, or Stefane, you're in fact referring to Mr. Bourgon, are you

16 not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you recall, sir, -- can you recall, General, in what way the

19 questions were amended? Or do you have, perhaps, a copy of the original

20 questions that you were asked?

21 A. I have nothing here apart from my report.

22 Q. Do you have any recollection as to how the questions were amended

23 or how they evolved over time, if you can just give us some general -- a

24 general overview or specifics, if you can recall specific examples.

25 A. Well, for example, in the case of mobilisation, I would set up how

Page 17977

1 the rules governed mobilisation in the JNA and, as usual, I prepared this

2 in a very broad and general sense and then it was necessary to whittle it

3 down. And I think that I provided about 200 pages. The report I provided

4 consisted of about 200 pages and then I had to cut it down to down to 130

5 or 150 pages.

6 Q. I take it, sir, from this answer that the questions were amended

7 in such a way so that you could focus your attention and, thus, reduce the

8 length of your report? Is that a fair overall summary?

9 A. Well, roughly speaking, that would be my viewpoint.

10 Q. I would like to turn your attention and our focus now, sir, to the

11 accused General Enver Hadzihasanovic. In order to prepare your report, it

12 was necessary for you to gather some information about the professional

13 experience and background of General Hadzihasanovic. Isn't that the case?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us, sir, how you went about doing that? What were

16 the sources of that information, who you spoke to, or what documents you

17 reviewed, in terms of reaching conclusions about the experience and

18 professional background of General Hadzihasanovic?

19 A. Well, it was simply not necessary for me to consult anyone. I

20 knew everything, but perhaps I had to consult someone to make sure that I

21 hadn't made any mistakes when it came to his biography. Perhaps I had to

22 consult Mustafa Polutak, et cetera, because I knew at least 90 per cent of

23 Mr. Hadzihasanovic's biography from before.

24 Q. Okay. General, you indicate in paragraph 345 of your report that

25 General Hadzihasanovic did not complete what the English translation says

Page 17978












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17979

1 is "the JNA school for generals." And I'm wondering if you can give me

2 the formal name of that school or academy.

3 A. I think the name is school of war. Perhaps General Hadzihasanovic

4 will laugh. The war academy or the school of war.

5 Q. Clearly there are a number of different military schools and

6 academies at various levels. To the best of your recollection, the

7 academy that would be the school or the training ground for promotion to

8 the rank of general within the JNA was called the school of war, or the

9 war academy?

10 A. I think that's correct. If not, it's something like that. The

11 name resembles that name.

12 Q. Did you ever attend that school yourself?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, you told us that you knew about at least 90 per cent of

15 General Hadzihasanovic's biography from before. Where did that 90

16 per cent that you knew from before come from? Where did that knowledge

17 that you had about his background come from?

18 A. Well we spent four or five months together in the course of the

19 summer of 1992. We slept in the same place, in the operation centre every

20 day, in the General Staff of the ABiH.

21 Q. Well, let me ask you, sir: If you were aware or if you can

22 confirm some of the following information about General Hadzihasanovic's

23 professional background. Were you aware, sir, or did you know that he had

24 commanded a military police company in the JNA from 1975 to 1980?

25 A. I'm not sure whether he was in command of a military police

Page 17980

1 company, but he was in command of a military police battalion.

2 Q. Okay. That actually came later. But he was, in fact, the

3 commander of a military police battalion in the JNA, wasn't he?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you know if, prior to that, he had been the deputy

6 commander of a military police battalion? And prior to that, he'd been

7 commander of a military police company?

8 A. We consider everything below the level of battalion to be

9 unimportant, so I can't remember. Had I wanted to, I could have

10 remembered that and I could have had such precise information, but I

11 cannot now claim whether he was or wasn't, and what he was.

12 Q. Did you know, sir, that he'd also commanded a motorised brigade in

13 the city of Sarajevo immediately prior to the outbreak of the war?

14 A. I think it was a mechanised brigade.

15 Q. Okay. Do you remember which brigade it was?

16 A. The Lukavac brigade which is based in Lukavica in the immediate

17 vicinity of the town of Sarajevo.

18 Q. Which is at Lukavica barracks?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Which we heard much about during the Galic trials, I'm sure you

21 will appreciate.

22 Let me ask you this, sir: You've told us, again on Monday, the

23 21st of March, that you first met General Hadzihasanovic in June or July

24 of 1992. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17981

1 Q. There's a reference in the transcript on the 24th of March, 2005,

2 that I believe is unclear and I'm going to ask you this so that we can

3 clarify what I think is a discrepancy in the transcript. Because on

4 page 14 of the transcript of 24 March, 2005, at lines 22, 23, the

5 transcript says, quoting yourself, General: "I know General

6 Hadzihasanovic from the JNA." And my question is: Did you actually know

7 him during the time the both of you were in the JNA, or did you only meet

8 him later?

9 A. I'm not sure that I knew him personally at the time that the JNA

10 existed, but I had heard of him. Perhaps that's why some confusion has

11 arisen. I didn't personally know General Hadzihasanovic at the time the

12 JNA existed but I had heard about him. I think the first time we actually

13 met each other tete-a-tete was in fact in June or perhaps in July 1992.

14 Q. Then you told us, sir, in the autumn of 1992, when you were

15 appointed the deputy commander of the 1st Corps, General Hadzihasanovic

16 was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Corps of the ABiH.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And as such, you were his immediate superior? Would that be

19 correct?

20 A. Our superior was the corps commander, but more or less it would be

21 the case.

22 Q. And in late 1993, following the time period General Hadzihasanovic

23 commanded the 3rd Corps, he was appointed Chief of Staff of the Main Staff

24 of the ABiH.

25 A. Yes.

Page 17982

1 Q. Can you describe for us, sir, what type of professional

2 relationship, if any, existed between the Chief of Staff of the Main

3 Staff, and the commander of the 1st Corps, that is, the position that you

4 yourself held in late 1993?

5 A. The corps commander was directly subordinated in the chain of

6 command to the commander of the General Staff of the BiH army. In terms

7 of the relationship, the Chief of Staff of the General Staff, which was

8 General Hadzihasanovic's position, did not have anything to do with corps

9 commanders. In that respect, there is no subordination relationship.

10 However, there is a line of operative work, a line of cooperation,

11 between the General Staff and the corps staff. The Chief of Staff of the

12 General staff, which was Hadzihasanovic's position, is in some -- in some

13 way was subordinated to my Chief of Staff. However, this was not a chain

14 of command and it was not strict subordination. This was professional

15 subordination or operative subordination. I don't know whether I was

16 clear enough.

17 Q. Well, let me ask you, sir, in a more direct way: Was General

18 Hadzihasanovic, at the time he was Chief of Staff of the Main Staff of the

19 ABiH at the end of 1993, your superior?

20 A. My superior was the commander of the General Staff of the BiH

21 army, and I reported directly to him on all the issues which prevailed in

22 my corps. The commander of the General Staff of the BiH army had his

23 deputy, who was either Jovo Divjak or Siber, or so on and so forth. The

24 Chief of Staff was the third or even the fourth person in that chain.

25 General Hadzihasanovic, as the chief of the General Staff, if you

Page 17983

1 are looking at that as a whole body, the whole General Staff and its

2 function as the Chief of Staff, in a certain way he was my superior.

3 However, it was not in the true military sense that he was my superior.

4 Save for, in those situations, when the commander was absent and when his

5 deputy was absent, there could be a very short interval during which the

6 commander of the General Staff could authorise him to act on his behalf

7 and to issue orders to the corps commanders.

8 Q. Thank you, sir.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time. It might be a few

10 minutes early, but I would respectfully ask that we take our second

11 technical break at this point in time.

12 I will also inform the Chamber and my learned colleagues that I do

13 anticipate that we will be completed with our cross-examination by the

14 conclusion of today's court day.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to make a break. It

16 is 20 past 5.00 and we will resume around ten to 6.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.20

18 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you have the floor.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. General, I'm going to turn now to a few questions that I have

22 concerning the accused Brigadier Amir Kubura. And you told us earlier

23 this afternoon that you knew Brigadier Kubura from prior to the war and I

24 would ask you some follow-up questions about that. I believe you told us

25 that he was the commander of the 1st Muslim Brigade of the 1st Corps. Is

Page 17984

1 that correct?

2 A. A. I don't know if I said that I knew him from before the war.

3 I don't know whether I said that. And as for the second part of your

4 question, the answer is yes.

5 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, then, General, so that we're very

6 clear: Do you recall when was the first time, if ever, that you've met

7 Amir Kubura face to face?

8 A. I believe that this was during the war. When I met him for the

9 first time I wouldn't know. I can't be sure of the time. In any case, I

10 heard of him when he was in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. And when he

11 was reassigned to the 1st Corps of the BiH army, I believe that by then I

12 had already seen him several times.

13 Q. Okay. And sir, can you tell us approximately when it was that

14 Amir Kubura was reassigned to the ABiH 1st Corps?

15 A. I believe that this was in March 1994. I'm not sure though.

16 Q. And, sir, you told us that you had heard of him when he was in the

17 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Do you recall what you might have heard of

18 him when he had commanded that brigade?

19 A. Nothing special. I heard of many officers in the 5th Corps. I

20 heard of many of them and I did not see many of them until the end of the

21 war or even after the end of the war. So I can't say that it was either

22 positive or negative. I just heard of him. I don't know whether I saw

23 him first in Zenica when we went there for our debriefing. I don't know.

24 I can't be sure of that. In any case, I'm sure that I met him before he

25 before he joined my corps.

Page 17985

1 Q. Sir, I believe there might be an error in the transcript.

2 Page 56, line 14, which should be on the screen in front of you. I would

3 ask you if you could read that line to yourself and if you have anything

4 that you want to correct about page 56, line 14 I would invite you to do

5 so.

6 A. Shall I correct myself?

7 Q. If there is anything that is incorrect about page 56, line 14, I

8 would invite you to tell us.

9 A. I don't see a mistake there. I don't know what I'm supposed to

10 correct, as much as I can read English.

11 Q. I asked you, sir, if you recall what you might have heard of him

12 when he had commanded that brigade, referring to Brigadier Amir Kubura and

13 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and you said: "Nothing special. I heard

14 of many officers in the 5th Corps." Was the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

15 part of the 5th Corps?

16 A. No. I just mentioned the 5th Corps by way of example. The

17 5th Corps, throughout the war, was cut off from the main body of the BiH

18 army, so I heard of many officers from the 5th Corps and I did not see

19 many of them until the end of the war. And I mentioned the 5th Corps only

20 by way of example.

21 Q. Now, sir, in order to produce your report and the section or the

22 paragraphs that relate to Brigadier Kubura and the 7th Muslim Mountain

23 Brigade, can you tell us, sir, what material you reviewed concerning the

24 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

25 A. Materials, documents, everything that has been recorded and that

Page 17986

1 was registered by this Tribunal. Everything that is here behind me.

2 Q. Now, sir, in your report -- again paragraph 477. My learned

3 colleague, Mr. Ibrisimovic, asked you some questions about that paragraph.

4 I would ask you if you could, please, to turn to paragraph 477. And I'm

5 specifically interested, sir, in the last two sentences of that paragraph

6 that begin with the phrase "On 12 March 1993". Do you see that sentence,

7 sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You go on to write: "Brigadier Kubura was appointed Chief of

10 Staff by the SVK."

11 Did you see a document dated 12 March 1993 that appointed

12 Brigadier Kubura Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

13 A. I think so. If you're referring to the 12th of March, I don't

14 know why. But in any case, I mentioned that in my report based on the

15 document that I had at my disposal.

16 Q. Now, General Karavelic, do you have that document with you in the

17 courtroom, in one of the binders behind you perhaps?

18 A. If this document has been registered here with the Court, it

19 should be there.

20 Q. Well, let me ask you, sir, if you can take a moment to see if it's

21 in one of the binders behind you, the 12 March 1993 document. Perhaps

22 with the assistance of the usher, if that document could be placed on the

23 ELMO. Is that the document, sir, that you relied upon? Perhaps if the

24 usher could move that up just a little bit up or perhaps zoom out. That's

25 fine. Stop, please.

Page 17987

1 Sir, is this in fact the document that you relied upon in reaching

2 the conclusion that Brigadier Kubura was appointed Chief of Staff on the

3 12th of March, 1993?

4 A. I believe so.

5 Q. Can you please -- I believe it is under number 2, in the first

6 section, can you read out that sentence relating to Mr. Kubura.

7 A. In 477, my paragraph 477?

8 Q. No, sir. In the document. The reference in the document to

9 Mr. Kubura.

10 A. Under 2: Kubura Nazifa Amir, born 4 March 1964. To the

11 establishment post of the Chief of Staff and at the same time deputy

12 commander.

13 Q. So, sir, based on this document that you have before you,

14 Brigadier Kubura was appointed Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Mountain

15 Brigade and, at the same time, deputy commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain

16 Mountain Brigade. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, sir, in your report at paragraph 477, there is no reference

19 to him being appointed deputy commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

20 at the same time he was appointed Chief of Staff of that brigade. Is that

21 right? Your report doesn't mention that fact.

22 A. That is true. But it went without saying, because it is the

23 document that is important. In -- and my expert report is not important

24 in that sense. In my thinking, this was understood. But in any case it

25 is the way you have said it.

Page 17988

1 Q. Now, General, you testified in response to some earlier questions

2 and having had reference to the Rules of Service of the ABiH, and I would

3 like to ask you if you could repeat for us the role of a deputy commander

4 of a brigade when the commander of the brigade is absent.

5 A. If there is a deputy commander, as a separate position, unlike in

6 this case of Amir Kubura, if they are two persons, one who is the Chief of

7 Staff and the other who is the deputy commander, then it is the deputy

8 commander who acts on behalf of the brigade commander in his absence.

9 In the spirit of my answer given to Mr. Ibrisimovic's question,

10 since these two positions are held by one person, one officer, then this

11 also arises in the second case. In the first case, however, if the deputy

12 is the one who acts on behalf of the commander, then it is logical that in

13 addition to acting in respect of one of his establishment posts, he also

14 acts in respect of another establishment post which is the brigade

15 commander. In the second cases, the two positions were held by one

16 person, which was Amir Kubura. It would not have made any sense for him

17 to act in respect of another position on top of the two positions that he

18 already held.

19 Q. Now, let me ask you this, though, and let's focus on the situation

20 as it existed in the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in the time period

21 March/April 1993, so that we're clear that's what we're talking about.

22 As of the 12th of March 1993 Amir Kubura was appointed Chief of

23 Staff and deputy commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. True?

24 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. I apologise.

25 Q. Based, sir, on the document that you have to your right on the

Page 17989












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17990

1 projection machine, on the 12th of March, 1993 Sefer Halilovic, on behalf

2 of the Supreme Command Staff, appointed Amir Kubura to be Chief of Staff

3 and deputy commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, and as you put in your report, on the 6th of August, 1993,

6 there is a different document which appoints Amir Kubura to be the

7 commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, sir, during the period between 12 March 1993 and 6 August

10 1993, when Brigadier Kubura was the Chief of Staff and deputy commander of

11 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, during that time period, 12 March through

12 6 August 1993, when the commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, Asim

13 Koricic, was not able to perform his duties as commander, who would be

14 commanding the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

15 A. In the Yugoslav People's Army all the rules say as follows: The

16 brigade commander or the corps commander, it really doesn't matter what

17 the unit level is, every commander commands his unit no matter where he

18 is.

19 I apologise for saying this, but just to illustrate this. The

20 commander can be on the moon, abroad, in his own country, anywhere outside

21 his brigade, he still remains its commander. There are several ways how

22 the command and control role can be exercised. It can be through one's

23 presence, or in the absence of that particular person, via telephone, via

24 fax communication and so on and so forth. These are all the ways how the

25 control and command function can be exercised. And this person remains in

Page 17991

1 the position until the moment he is either relieved or abandons his

2 duty in another way.

3 This was the case in the JNA. I was in the situation on a number

4 of occasions when my superior was not in Ljubljana and I was the battalion

5 commander in Ljubljana. I did something on his behalf. He would ask me,

6 Why you did that? No matter where I am, I'm still the commander, and

7 you're not supposed to do anything on my behalf if I don't tell you to do

8 that. For practical reasons, I'm telling you how it was in the JNA.

9 For somebody not to be a commander, he has to be officially

10 relieved of his duties by his superior.

11 Q. I completely understand what you're saying, sir, but the fact is,

12 during a wartime situation, if the commander is killed, taken prisoner of

13 war, or simply flees the country, someone has to be in command at all

14 times. Would you agree with that as a matter of principle?

15 A. You're absolutely right. But, we're talking about a certain

16 period, the period that I was referring to.

17 Q. Yes. I'm, again, focussing on the period between the 12th of

18 March and the 6th of August, 1993, when Amir Kubura was formally appointed

19 the commander and Asim Koricic was formally relieved of command as the

20 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

21 During that period, between the 12th of March and the 6th of

22 August, 1993, if Asim Koricic left Bosnia and went to a third country,

23 whether it was with permission or without permission, Amir Kubura was

24 responsible for exercising command authority over the 7th Muslim Mountain

25 Brigade. Do you agree with that or not?

Page 17992

1 A. I can't fully agree with what you're saying.

2 Q. Again, let me put this as a hypothetical to you. Between the

3 12th of March and the 6th of August, 1993, the commander of the 7th Muslim

4 Mountain Brigade, the formally designated commander of the 7th Muslim

5 Mountain Brigade, leaves Bosnia and does not return prior to the end of

6 the war. Does that person, who is outside of Bosnia, they might retain

7 the formal position of commander until they are relieved, but in their

8 absence someone must be in command of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

9 A. This is close to being the case, but it cannot be completely so

10 because it goes against the things that I explained to you, in terms of

11 what the procedure is, if that is the case. Then one might ask the

12 question, why the order was issued on the first of August -- that is on

13 the 6th of August, 1993, why was it that the order was issued at that

14 moment, because that situation could have continued without the order.

15 But it couldn't continue for several reasons. This should have

16 been done at a much sooner and certainly no later than two months after

17 the departure of the brigade commander. The order that was issued in

18 August should have been issued earlier, appointing Amir Kubura to the

19 position of the brigade commander and giving him the authority. I

20 apologise. If Amir Kubura were to ask for his legal entitlements that

21 arise from the position of the commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain

22 Brigade for the period from the 12th of March to the 6th of August, he

23 would not be able to exercise those rights, because legally he was not in

24 that position at the time.

25 Q. That is most likely the case, sir. But my point is simply that

Page 17993

1 during that period someone had to be in command of the 7th Muslim Mountain

2 Brigade. In the absence of the commander, if he's gone, someone must be

3 in charge.

4 A. Generally speaking you're absolutely right because the brigade is

5 a living organism. A brigade are people. It is not a vehicle that you

6 can just turn the engine off and you abandon it in the middle of the road.

7 You have to work with people. And obviously what Amir Kubura did was what

8 was supposed to be done and he did it and continued doing it. However, if

9 I had been in his shoes, I would have pestered my superior and I would

10 insist on him dealing with my status. I would have wanted things to be

11 legal.

12 Q. Well, let me put to you, sir, that Asim Koricic left Bosnia on

13 April 1st, meaning that the two-month period would have expired on

14 June 1st, 1993. And in the event, in the event Mr. Kubura began pestering

15 his commander to raise this issue with the Supreme Command Staff, that

16 during the first two weeks of June 1993 the 3rd Corps commander might

17 have been preoccupied with events going on in the Bijela valley. Would

18 you agree with that?

19 A. I did not study other reasons why this was the case, why wasn't

20 Brigadier Kubura appointed. However, what you have just mentioned may be

21 part of the reasons. But I can't be sure of that. Because I don't know

22 what was the key reason for which Amir Kubura was not appointed, either

23 the acting commander or the commander, immediately by way of an order.

24 Q. But again, sir, my only point is: Between the 12th of March and

25 the 6th of August, 1993, if the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade commander left

Page 17994

1 Bosnia, Amir Kubura as the deputy commander would be the de facto

2 commander of that brigade.

3 A. If I may give you an assumption, a hypothetical situation. I'm

4 not saying for a moment that this was indeed the case. This was just a

5 hypothetical situation. Kubura already held a certain establishment

6 position in that same brigade. He had his tasks and duties that arose

7 from the position to which he had been appointed. I don't want to go

8 through the list of all of these tasks and duties.

9 Now the time came for him to do something else, a third set of

10 duties, because there was nobody else to take them over. However, if I

11 had been in his shoes, I would have perhaps thought that this same brigade

12 commander could have contacts with other officers in my brigade with

13 battalion commanders. How was I supposed to be sure that he didn't have

14 such contacts? There was no way for me to be sure of that. And I'm just

15 assuming that. This is just a hypothetical situation. But this

16 assumption suffices.

17 I could give you some other hypothetical thoughts which compel a

18 person to do things as best as he can. This was the time of war and it

19 would have been really bad if Amir Kubura had said, I don't want to lead

20 this brigade. He would have transpired as a coward who didn't have the

21 courage to lead his men. He probably did ask for his status to be

22 resolved and it wasn't done. What could he have done in that position?

23 In his shoes, what would I have done? Maybe I would have insisted

24 even more on my requests being resolved. But it still remains

25 questionable whether this would have been done. The time went on. The

Page 17995

1 brigade had to live, it had to perform his duties. I'm just trying to

2 look at the situation from the military point of view. And as for the

3 legal weight of a certain situation, I cannot go into that. It is not my

4 place to be the judge of that.

5 Q. Well, I'm going to move on, General. But my point was precisely,

6 I believe, what you were trying to make at the end, that is from a

7 military point of view, leaving aside all the legal niceties, from a

8 purely military point of view, someone is always in command of every unit.

9 A. Broadly speaking that conclusion is correct. That there are many

10 other arguments that we must bear in mind, and I could pose the following

11 question if I may. Why was it only on the 6th of August that Amir Kubura

12 was appointed as brigade commander? And what if up until the 6th of

13 August, 1993, the General Staff or corps commander didn't think that he

14 was mature enough or capable to be the brigade commander. What if they

15 thought he wasn't up to the task. What if that was the reason and he

16 wasn't appointed as brigade commander until the 6th of August? But it

17 turns out that he was de facto the brigade commander, and he was

18 responsible for the brigade and the reason for which he wasn't appointed

19 as brigade commander was, perhaps, the fact that someone assessed that he

20 wasn't up to the task of commanding a brigade.

21 Q. Let me move on. Paragraph 477, the final sentence of your report,

22 you write in reference to 6 August 1993: "Before this date, he had served

23 as an acting commander of the brigade."

24 My question to you, sir, is: When did he start serving as an

25 acting commander of the brigade prior to the 6th of August 1993?

Page 17996

1 A. From a legal point of view, according to my assessment, according

2 to my understanding, this could only have been during the first two months

3 which was covered by the rules of service. And afterwards, he wasn't

4 legally covered.

5 Q. Okay. And what period are you talking about when you say in your

6 report he had served as an acting commander of the brigade? What time

7 period are you referring to?

8 A. Well I'm referring to the two months, from the 1st of April and

9 onwards.

10 Q. And what do you base that on? What material have you reviewed or

11 what person you consulted with? What do you base that on?

12 A. It's based on documents that don't state otherwise and it's based

13 on the rules of service in the JNA. I didn't find any documents that

14 stated the contrary.

15 Q. Let me move on to some general points with respect to your report.

16 In paragraph 499, I'd ask you if you could, sir, to please turn to

17 paragraph 499. Let me ask you, sir -- do you have paragraph 499 in front

18 of you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You write in this or paragraph sir, and I'm quoting: "The only

21 way to assess how both commanders reacted to certain events during this

22 period is to look at what happened through their eyes, taking into

23 consideration the prevailing circumstances at the time."

24 This would seem, General, to imply that a subjective and not an

25 objective approach is taken by yourself, in terms of writing this report.

Page 17997

1 A. When I wrote this -- I'll provide you with another example. I

2 meant that if I had been in Amir Kubura's position, or rather I asked

3 myself, If I had been in Amir Kubura's position, what would I have done?

4 And I said I would probably have done something very similar, if not

5 exactly the same thing. If I had been the Chief of Staff or the deputy,

6 which was Kubura's case, and my brigade commander left, then as the next

7 most senior officer, I would have had to perform my duties. I wouldn't

8 have had the right to sit down and say the brigade's life will now end

9 because I would then have suffered other legal consequences. The life and

10 the activities of the brigade must continue.

11 If I had said I won't perform these duties, and if I abandoned the

12 duties I had been assigned, I would have suffered far more serious legal

13 consequences. I couldn't do this. All I could do is act as Kubura did,

14 to continue working and to ask, at the same time, to have my status

15 regulated, because he had no other solution. He had no better solution.

16 As to why they waited until the 6th of August, 1993 to resolve the matter,

17 that's something I can't comment on. That's another matter.

18 Q. I appreciate, General, that answer, but I have moved on to part 4

19 of your report and my question is a more general one, based on what you

20 wrote in paragraph 499. And my question is, to the extent you can render

21 your opinion on this as the author of the report, did you take a

22 subjective approach, that is, viewing the events as they happened through

23 the eyes of the two accused? Or did you attempt to take an objective

24 approach?

25 A. Even now I ask myself how I could have assessed this differently.

Page 17998

1 As to whether I was being more subjective or more objective, I don't know.

2 All I can say, that I really tried to avoid being subjective. I don't

3 know whether I fully succeeded in doing that. Someone else should say.

4 Q. But in paragraph 499 you state: "In my opinion, the only way to

5 assess how both commanders reacted is to look at what happened through

6 their eyes."

7 And so my question isn't so much whether your report is objective,

8 but whether the methodology that you used relates to taking a subjective

9 approach, based on what you wrote in paragraph 499.

10 A. I don't know if there's some confusion with regard to the term,

11 but in this paragraph I wanted to refer to all the events that took

12 place. When I said to look at things through their eyes, that means

13 placing myself in their position, in their shoes during that period of

14 time, in order to have the best possible understanding of the situation at

15 that period of time, during that period of time. And in the belief that

16 that would enable me to be as objective as possible, because I wanted to

17 depict the reality and all the difficulties that existed at that time,

18 that caused all the commanders at all levels very serious problems. That

19 was my purpose. However, if one claims that the methodology appears to be

20 a subjective methodology, well, that is not something I would agree with.

21 Q. Thank you, General.

22 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

25 It's 20 to 7.00 now. Will Defence counsel prefer to wait until

Page 17999

1 tomorrow for their re-examination?

2 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. With the

3 Chamber's leave we would rather wait until tomorrow to commence our

4 examination. I think I will need an hour and a half and it would be

5 preferable to start tomorrow so as to avoid breaking up our

6 re-examination.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will then

8 continue with your re-examination tomorrow.

9 We will now adjourn, but before we do so, General, you should be

10 back in the courtroom at 9.00 tomorrow morning. The hearing will be held

11 in the morning tomorrow at 9.00. I invite everyone to return for the

12 hearing at 9.00 tomorrow.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.40 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 30th day of

15 March, 2005 at 9.00 a.m.