Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18764

1 Tuesday, 3 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court].

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] IT-01-47T, the Prosecutor against

7 Mr. Hadzihasanovic and Kubura.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will the parties please

9 introduce themselves.

10 MR. MUNDIS: [Previous interpretation continues] ... manager

11 Andres Vatter.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good

14 morning Your Honours. For General Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic and

15 Stephane Bourgon.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

18 Representing Mr. Kubura, Mr. Ibrisimovic, Rodney Dixon, and our legal

19 assistant, Nermin Mulalic.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. All the parties

21 present, the accused and everybody here are greeted by the Trial Chamber.

22 We must continue with our work today with the hearing as planned, two

23 witnesses. I looked at the planning this morning. One half hour was

24 planned for each of the witnesses. We will see if we can finish with the

25 two witnesses today or perhaps the second witness will have to be

Page 18765

1 continued tomorrow, on Wednesday. If there is nothing else to say, we can

2 perhaps usher in the witness.

3 Would the usher please do so.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. I will see

6 if the equipment is working, and if what I'm saying is properly

7 interpreted. Tell me that you understand me.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do understand.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. -- you were called as

10 witness by General Kubura; that is, his Defence team. Before reading the

11 solemn oath, will you please give your name, date, and place of birth.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm Elvir Musija born on the 1st of

13 August, 1971 in Akat [as interpreted].

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me which town or

15 which village because it was not properly recorded? Could you spell,

16 perhaps, the name of your village or town.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] T-a-k-a-n-j.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Kakanj, K-a-k-a-n-j.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your present occupation?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am employed with a

21 construction company as a driver.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992, 1993, did you have an

23 occupation? Did you work? If you were a military person, in which way

24 were you involved in the army?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, I was with the Territorial

Page 18766

1 Defence of Kakanj municipality.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Municipal Staff. I was with

4 the Territorial Defence until September 1993. After that, I transferred

5 to the 7th Muslim Brigade.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, did you testify

7 before, before this International Tribunal or before any other national

8 court about the events in 1992 and 1993 or is it the first time you're

9 appearing before the Court?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my first time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you now read the solemn

12 declaration given you by the usher.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You can sit down now.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, before giving the floor to

20 counsel, I will give you some information about the way in which this

21 hearing will be conducted. You have already met the counsel of

22 General Kubura who have certainly given you some explanation about the way

23 these proceedings work. First of all, you will be answering questions

24 asked to you by Defence counsel of General Kubura. After that, the

25 counsel of General Hadzihasanovic, who are seated behind the counsel of

Page 18767

1 General Kubura, will be able to ask you questions also if they wish so.

2 After that, the Prosecution, which is on your right side, will

3 also ask you questions which is called here cross-examination. They will

4 be asking you questions, therefore, that are directly linked to the

5 questions that were asked by Defence counsel.

6 After that, counsel of General Kubura will have a chance to ask

7 you additional questions, a redirect in response to the questioning to the

8 Prosecutor. The three Judges before you normally can ask you questions at

9 any moment; however, we prefer to hear out everybody first to finish with

10 the examination of both parties and if we ask any questions, it will be

11 either to clarify the answers that you had given to the previous questions

12 or we will be asking you questions, because in the interests of justice,

13 we have to have some additional information from a person who was on the

14 spot at the relevant time.

15 I will draw your attention to another two things that are

16 important. First of all, you have declared that you will speak the truth

17 and the whole truth, and as you know, lying in a court of law is a

18 violation that is subject to very serious penalty. And secondly, if we

19 ask you a question and you decide that the question itself and the answer

20 you might give might turn against you and might incriminate you, you can

21 answer, "I absolutely do not wish to answer this question." This is a

22 situation we have never encountered here before but in any case -- in this

23 case, we have the right to ask you to answer the question nevertheless by

24 granting you immunity.

25 We have no documents accompanying your testimony which is why your

Page 18768

1 oral testimony is all the more important. You will be answering questions

2 and this will be put on record which is here called the transcript. That

3 will be the record of your testimony. Therefore, please try to be precise

4 in the answers you are giving. If you do not understand a question,

5 please ask the person asking the question to clarify it. Sometimes

6 questions can be complicated and you may not understand them. Even the

7 Judges sometimes do not understand the questions that are asked. That is

8 why it is absolutely necessary for the witness to perfectly understand the

9 question that he is asked to answer. And generally speaking, if you have

10 any difficulty of whatever kind or manner, you have the right to draw our

11 attention to it. If you need a break, you can ask for it.

12 In any case, we are obliged to stop every 90 minutes for a break

13 but if at any moment you wish to address the Judges, you have that right

14 to.

15 I will now give the floor to Mr. Dixon who is completely prepared

16 by now and who will commence the direct examination.

17 Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.

18 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Examined by Mr. Dixon:

20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Musija. Sir, you said in response to a question

21 by the President of the Trial Chamber that you were a member of the 7th

22 Brigade from September 1993. Can you give the exact date and in what

23 position were you a member of that brigade?

24 A. I believe the exact date is the 1st of September, 1993. In the

25 establishment post of courier or messenger escort.

Page 18769

1 Q. Thank you. Why were you appointed into this particular position?

2 A. Well, the need arose for that because Mr. Kubura became commander

3 in August, sometime in August 1993, the need arose for such an

4 establishment post so I was transferred to the 7th Muslim Brigade to that

5 particular establishment post.

6 Q. Were you working directly for Mr. Kubura in this position?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you say "escort," what do you mean by that?

9 A. That means that in the event we were going out into the field, I

10 would make the preparations for that. When he would go out into the

11 field, I would take care of accommodation. And I did other work related

12 to the organisation of his departure, journey, and return.

13 Q. Did you offer protection to him while he was in the field?

14 A. Yes. During the way there and back and the stay in the field, I

15 also performed tasks related to security.

16 Q. And when you say that you were a courier, what do you mean by

17 that?

18 A. As a courier, I would summon officers to meetings, make

19 announcements, take the mail from Mr. Kubura to his superiors.

20 Q. Did you have an office, and where were you based?

21 A. I did not quite understand. Do you mean where I was staying

22 during that time in the barracks or in the field?

23 Q. Let's start with the barracks. Where were you stationed in

24 barracks? And then after that, if you could explain where you would be

25 stationed when you went into the field, generally?

Page 18770

1 A. While we were in the barracks, I would spend my time in the

2 anteroom before Mr. Kubura's office and on the ground, I had accommodation

3 in the building right next to the building where Mr. Kubura was so that he

4 was able -- in fact, I was able to be available to him all the time.

5 Q. Thank you. When was the first time that you met Mr. Kubura during

6 the war?

7 A. The first time I saw Mr. Kubura was in December 1992 when I got my

8 transfer orders from the Territorial Defence to the 3rd Mountain

9 Battalion, that is, from the Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence.

10 Q. Would you please clarify, you mentioned it was the 3rd mountain --

11 in the transcript it says "battalion." Is that right? Is it not the 3rd

12 Mountain Brigade?

13 A. It was a battalion.

14 Q. And what brigade was that battalion part of?

15 A. It was the 333rd Mountain Brigade.

16 Q. In December 1992, what position did you hold in that 3rd

17 Battalion?

18 A. I occupied the establishment post of soldier.

19 Q. And what was Mr. Kubura's position?

20 A. He was battalion commander.

21 Q. As a soldier in his battalion, did you have much contact with

22 Mr. Kubura during that time?

23 A. No, I didn't have much contact with him because most of my time

24 was spent in the field.

25 Q. You stayed in that battalion until the 1st of September, 1993,

Page 18771

1 you've said.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. In December 1992, did you have any contacts or joint operations

4 with the 7th Brigade?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When you came to the 7th Brigade at the beginning of September

7 1992 [sic] to work for Mr. Kubura, what position did he hold at that time?

8 A. He occupied the post of brigade commander whereas my job within

9 the perimeter of the barracks was to announce the arrival of superior

10 officers, accommodation for them, all the organisational work within the

11 barracks.

12 Q. The transcript needs to be corrected. The question that was asked

13 was when the witness arrived at the beginning of September 1993 to work

14 for Mr. Kubura.

15 From September 1993 until the end of November 1993, can you recall

16 how many times you went out into the field on military operations with

17 Mr. Kubura?

18 A. I think it was on three different occasions, three different

19 areas.

20 Q. Was one of those areas Vares?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when was that?

23 A. That was in the beginning of November 1993.

24 Q. Can you assist the Trial Chamber with what occurred at the

25 commencement of that operation and how the events unfolded with the

Page 18772












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18773

1 operation?

2 A. We organised movement from Zenica Bilmiste village towards the

3 village of Strijezevo which is close to Vares. We travelled in a small

4 sedan.

5 Q. Could I interrupt you there, when you say we travelled, who are

6 you referring to?

7 A. I mean Mr. Kubura, myself, and his driver.

8 Q. And on what date was that that you drove to Vares?

9 A. I can't say exactly, I don't know the date. It was the beginning

10 of November. I know it was a Wednesday.

11 Q. If you could assist with explaining the journey that you took and

12 what events unfolded, please?

13 A. So we were travelling from Zenica towards Strijezevo village.

14 Those were army roads, not paved roads such as a macadam road, for

15 instance. When we arrived at Strijezevo, we found accommodation. The

16 commander was billeted in a private house, and I was billeted in a house

17 next door, also privately owned. I will note that Strijezevo is a Bosniak

18 village.

19 Q. When you arrived there on that day, do you recall what

20 preparations were made during the course of that day?

21 A. All I know is that meetings were held with commanding officers, of

22 which I summoned some, but I can't remember their names. In any case, all

23 sorts of meetings were held. I did not have insight into the subject of

24 these meetings so I can't tell you anything about it.

25 Q. Can you tell us when the military operation commenced?

Page 18774

1 A. The military operation commenced the next day in the early morning

2 hours.

3 Q. What was Mr. Kubura doing at this time?

4 A. That morning, I received orders that we would be leaving for Vares

5 and I remember from Strijezevo towards Vares, we travelled along a

6 mountain macadam road arriving at Vares Majdan, a place which is a

7 kilometre away from Vares.

8 Q. When you say "we were travelling along that mountain road," are

9 you referring to yourself and Mr. Kubura?

10 A. Yes, I'm referring to myself, Mr. Kubura, and the driver.

11 Q. Where were the units of the 7th Brigade at this time?

12 A. As far as I knew at the time, the units were in front of us.

13 Q. When you arrived at Vares Majdan, as you said, what did Mr. Kubura

14 do at that time?

15 A. When we arrived at Vares Majdan, we reached a military police

16 checkpoint. We stayed there for about one hour. Mr. Kubura had

17 conversations over a mobile radio set and then we returned to the village

18 of Strijezevo.

19 Q. You mentioned a military police checkpoint, do you know which

20 military police were stationed there?

21 A. It was the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

22 Q. Did you see any other brigades or units at that checkpoint in

23 Vares Majdan?

24 A. In the immediate vicinity of the checkpoint, I saw a couple of

25 members of the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I saw

Page 18775

1 a unit from Visoko. I don't know which structure it belonged to. I also

2 noticed that there was a UN personnel carrier in the vicinity of this

3 checkpoint.

4 Q. Did you see any UN soldiers there?

5 A. Yes, they were in position in the vehicle itself.

6 Q. You said you returned to Strijezevo, so you did not go into the

7 town of Vares on that day?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you know what was happening in the town?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. When you returned to Strijezevo, can you recall what time of the

12 day that was?

13 A. It was about 11.00 or 12.00, about noon.

14 Q. What did Mr. Kubura do when he got back to Strijezevo at that

15 time?

16 A. Some meetings were held with battalion commanders. I think there

17 was some other officers there but I can't remember very well. I don't

18 know what was at stake. When we returned to Strijezevo, our soldiers told

19 me that Vares had been abandoned, so that it was an abandoned town.

20 Q. Thank you. When you say "our soldiers," do you mean soldiers from

21 the 7th Brigade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you assist the Trial Chamber when the units of the 7th Brigade

24 that you mentioned earlier that were advancing on Vares, when they

25 returned from the Vares area to Strijezevo or its surrounding areas?

Page 18776

1 A. Shortly after our return, perhaps two or three hours later -- this

2 took place in winter so the night fell very early, and until night fell, I

3 saw that the unit that was located in Strijezevo was there.

4 Q. What happened the following day?

5 A. On the following day, in the morning, I received an order from

6 Mr. Kubura to get ready to go to Vares. I was told that some sort of a

7 demonstration had been organised there by the civilian authorities.

8 Q. In the transcript, the word "demonstration" has been referred to.

9 Could you explain for the Trial Chamber what, in fact, had been organized

10 by the civilian authorities in Vares on that following day?

11 A. They had organised the takeover of the municipality of Vares.

12 They were taking control of it. So it was a celebration to mark the

13 takeover of Vares by the civilian authorities.

14 Q. Did you then accompany Mr. Kubura to Vares?

15 A. Yes. I left with him from Strijezevo but, as I wasn't part of the

16 programme for that gathering, I remained at the military police checkpoint

17 in Vares Majdan and he continued to travel to Vares with his driver.

18 Q. How long did Mr. Kubura stay in Vares on at that day?

19 A. Well, for about two or three hours.

20 Q. Do you know what he was doing during that time?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. While you were at the checkpoint, could you describe what you

23 witnessed there? What was happening at that checkpoint?

24 A. Civilian vehicles arrived. Because of the gathering that had been

25 organised, naturally the military police performed their duties, they

Page 18777

1 checked the vehicles and the passengers and drivers in the vehicles.

2 Q. When Mr. Kubura returned after attending these functions in Vares,

3 where did you go next?

4 A. When all this was over, we returned to Strijezevo.

5 Q. And after that, what was your next move?

6 A. I received an order from Mr. Kubura to pack my affairs and I was

7 told that we were returning to Zenica.

8 Q. Continue.

9 A. Packing and getting ready took about an hour, and then we set off.

10 Q. And do you know what had happened to the units of the 7th Brigade

11 at that time on that day?

12 A. Well, I can tell you about the unit that was deployed in

13 Strijezevo. That was the 2nd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade. By the

14 end of the day, they had returned to the Bilmiste barracks in Zenica.

15 Q. Thank you. You've mentioned two days that you were in the Vares

16 area. During that time, did you receive or convey any reports to

17 Mr. Kubura about looting in the area?

18 A. No, I didn't but given the nature of my duties and tasks, I didn't

19 have any access to documents and the like.

20 Q. Did you see any troops of the 7th Brigade carrying any items that

21 had been looted or taken from households?

22 A. No, I saw the troops returning to the barracks in buses, naturally

23 they had their own equipment on them.

24 Q. I want to move off Vares now and look at the time from the 1st of

25 September that you were working directly for Mr. Kubura. Throughout that

Page 18778

1 entire period, can you assist the Trial Chamber as to whether or not

2 Mr. Kubura ever visited the music school in Zenica in that time?

3 A. No, he didn't.

4 Q. Did he ever speak to you about the music school or did anyone ever

5 speak to him in your presence about the music school?

6 A. No, he didn't, and I wasn't even aware of the existence of that

7 music school.

8 Q. Did you know where the music school is situated now?

9 A. Yes, I do now.

10 Q. In order to get from the 7th Brigade headquarters in Bilmiste to

11 the 3rd Corps headquarters elsewhere in Zenica, can you help us: Is it

12 necessary or do you have to drive past the music school to get there?

13 A. That road doesn't go by the music school so you don't have to pass

14 by the music school.

15 Q. Thank you. How long did you continue working for Mr. Kubura?

16 A. Well, from September 1993 until the end of the war.

17 Q. Was this always in the 7th Brigade or did you move to another

18 brigade?

19 A. It wasn't always in the 7th Brigade. Sometime in March, I don't

20 know the exact date - in 1994, though - we received an order transferring

21 us to the 1st Corps.

22 Q. And how long were you working for him in the 1st Corps for?

23 A. Until the end of the war.

24 Q. So how many years would that approximately be?

25 A. A year and a half or two.

Page 18779

1 Q. In what position did you work for him?

2 A. As a courier, an escort.

3 Q. Having worked closely with Mr. Kubura from the 1st of September,

4 1993 until the end of the war as you've just explained, could you give

5 your impressions of Mr. Kubura as a military commander both as somebody

6 based in his barracks, but also as somebody commanding in the field?

7 A. Well, I can say that Mr. Kubura is an officer who requested that

8 orders be obeyed, he demanded that the troops conduct themselves in a

9 military manner and he had a saying. He would say that it was necessary

10 to have order and discipline in the army and at the same time, he

11 socialised with the soldiers and officers from his brigade.

12 He helped the soldiers. He tried to keep the level of morale at

13 an adequate level so the soldiers liked him. They grew to like him. I

14 could also add something else. I remember that at the end of December and

15 in January 1993 or between 1993 and 1994, in our military canteen, we had

16 sour cabbage for breakfast, lunch, and dinner with a slice of bread.

17 There was nothing else to accompany the meal so he shared everything with

18 his soldiers.

19 While we were in the field, he would organise, together with the

20 locals, on the whole, women, the preparation of food which he would

21 personally distribute to the soldiers at the front line.

22 Q. Thank you. Just a few follow-up questions. When you said that he

23 focused on order and discipline, could you explain to the Trial Chamber

24 what you meant by that?

25 A. Well, discipline, it means performing your duties in accordance

Page 18780

1 with orders issued by your superiors. We paid a lot of attention to

2 hygiene, that also comes under the heading of order. The troops were

3 lined up when they were about to go to have their meals and they also had

4 to greet their officers, conduct themselves in a military manner. That's

5 about all I could say about it.

6 Q. And what was his approach or what were his relations with the

7 soldiers that he commanded?

8 A. He would socialise with the troops. He would put them at ease.

9 Sometimes we would have a laugh, he would tell a joke to help the soldiers

10 forget about the situation they were in, about the fact that they were

11 soldiers, et cetera. Naturally, this was all done in his free time.

12 Q. What was his approach to the opposition that he was fighting? And

13 also, what was his approach to different groups, different religions in

14 the area where he commanded?

15 A. Well, like all of us, he lived in the state called Yugoslavia and

16 people learned to be cooperative and this is a trait that he retained. He

17 had nothing against the people as such. Naturally, as far as his enemy is

18 concerned, well, war is war. I remember that when he went to visit his

19 family, which was living in Kakanj -- well, there's a road that passes by

20 two buildings, it passes by an Orthodox church and a Catholic church, and

21 he would often say that we were proud of the fact that these two buildings

22 had been left intact.

23 Q. As a final question, could you say in just a few sentences what it

24 was like to be commanded by Mr. Kubura?

25 A. It was an honour for me. I think that most of the soldiers liked

Page 18781












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18782

1 him and many of them wished that he was their commander.

2 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Mr. Musija. I have no more questions but

3 there might be some more from the Prosecution and from Their Honours.

4 Thank you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Does

6 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team have any questions for this witness.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, we have

8 no questions for the witness.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I give the floor to the

10 Prosecution.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no

12 questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then, that proceeded

14 very rapidly. I'll ask the Judges if they have any questions. Well, I

15 have a few questions for you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you were a courier

18 and escort, General Kubura's security -- he was the brigade commander.

19 Could you tell us why the brigade commander engaged someone who wasn't in

20 the 7th Brigade before September, someone he confided in, or was it quite

21 by chance that you happened to have this role of assisting him?

22 A. Well, in December 1992, we were together in the 3rd Mountain

23 Battalion of the 333rd Brigade where I was engaged as a private. He saw

24 certain qualities in me. He believed that I was courageous and honest so

25 I believe that it is these qualities that he had in mind and since I am

Page 18783

1 from Kakanj, he engaged me because I thought that we would manage to work

2 with each other more easily.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And you were with

4 him until when, exactly?

5 A. I haven't understood your question, you mean in the 7th Brigade or

6 up until the end of war?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Until the end of war. Until

8 when, exactly, were you with Brigadier Kubura up until the end of the war.

9 A. I don't know the exact date but it was up until the end of the

10 war, up until the signing of the Dayton Peace Agreement.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were with him in

12 September 1993, in September, October, November, December, and then the

13 beginning of 1994, did you hear anything about an El Mujahed unit, did you

14 hear about any such a unit?

15 A. As I'm from Kakanj, I wasn't familiar with what was taking place

16 in Zenica naturally. I had heard about that unit but I never had any

17 contact with this unit nor did I ever see those soldiers.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You've just said that you heard

19 about the unit but what did you hear about this unit?

20 A. You have to believe me if I say that I really don't know. Not

21 much was said about them. I had my own work that I tried to perform as

22 well as I could and these foreigners were of no interest to me.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just said "these foreigners

24 were of no interest to me" because you did hear that these units consisted

25 of foreigners, didn't you?

Page 18784

1 A. Well, this unit comprised men including some from foreign

2 countries. There were locals too, but since I was from Kakanj, I was not

3 very familiar with Zenica. I didn't know where they were quartered and I

4 had no contact with them either in the barracks or in the field.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the month of September when

6 you were at the side of the brigade commander, you were in the Bilmiste

7 barracks, weren't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you, personally, did you

10 have a room within the barracks or were you quartered somewhere outside?

11 A. I had a bedroom within the barracks. It was, in fact, a dormitory

12 where soldiers slept. It was very near the office of Mr. Kubura.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] During that period, September,

14 October, November, December, did you receive pay? Did you have a salary?

15 Because normally, soldiers receive a salary, pay.

16 A. No, we didn't get anything. As far as I can remember, during that

17 period, I was in the 7th Brigade, I received a package, a parcel with some

18 staple food. That is the same that I received when I was in other units

19 such as the municipal staff of the TO, the Territorial Defence.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that you

21 had no salary but you received a parcel containing food like compensation.

22 This food parcel, did you receive it every month or it was never planned,

23 it came when it came?

24 A. Well, whenever there was food available, the superior commands

25 would distribute it across units and I received some too. Food was in

Page 18785

1 very short supply at the time. There was very little to go around, great

2 shortages, so that was it.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A soldier like you, a private,

4 if he was brave, if he conducted himself well on the front line, did he

5 receive financial rewards or did he receive some additional benefits in

6 the form of food? Were there any special rewards like that? Did you

7 personally receive any?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You received no award, no

10 reward?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you finish your career as a

13 private or did you eventually get a rank?

14 A. As a private.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another question. You have

16 explained that you were in Vares, that you made a journey together with

17 the driver of Mr. Kubura, and Mr. Kubura himself, and you said when you

18 were travelling, the units were in front of you. At the time when you

19 were on your way, who was carrying the radio communication device?

20 A. Mr. Kubura. It was a hand-held radio, a Motorola GP-300.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this hand-held radio, GP-300,

22 during all the time you were with the brigade commander, did he always

23 have this Motorola with him or did he carry it specially on that occasion

24 or was it rather that by definition, the brigade commander always had this

25 radio on him?

Page 18786

1 A. He always had this radio with him, radio that was drawn from

2 supplies, and he needed it to maintain communication with his subordinate

3 commanding officers.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To the best of your knowledge,

5 since you were close, after all, to the brigade commander, was

6 communication normal and regular or was it hindered, riddled with

7 problems? What can you tell us about communication, of course seen from

8 your level, from what you know?

9 A. Well, I could not notice much because I had no contact with

10 signalsmen, people handling the communications equipment, so I really

11 can't tell you much.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Early this morning, you said

13 that you would sometimes carry mail to superior commanders. Could you

14 tell us under what circumstances the brigade commander would give you

15 something to take to the 3rd Corps, did that ever happen?

16 A. Such things would not happen. I would never carry anything

17 directly to the 3rd Corps command, no documents or communications, but

18 what I would receive in the field, communications, was they would always

19 be in a closed envelope so I could not see what it was and what it was

20 about.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So on the ground, you said you

22 would sometimes receive communications that were in a closed envelope.

23 Where did you take them and to whom?

24 A. Mr. Kubura would place it directly in my hands and I was to hand

25 it in personally to the addressee.

Page 18787

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who were the addressees,

2 officers, or who?

3 A. Our commanding officers.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Battalion commanders?

5 A. Sometimes it would be a battalion commander if a battalion

6 commander was close by, and if I could easily go see him, then I would

7 carry the mail to him. But sometimes I would carry something for

8 commanding officers in the brigade command.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Brigade commanders, do you mean

10 other brigades, commanders of others -- other brigades? Could you tell us

11 which brigades, if you can remember, because this was quite some time ago,

12 years ago. Those were communications that were addressed personally to

13 the commanders of other brigades. Do you have a clear memory of those

14 packages, mail that you gave to --

15 A. I'm sorry, I didn't say the commanders of other brigades, I meant

16 only the commanders of our battalions and commanding officers within our

17 brigade.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this

19 clarification.

20 I also understood you as saying that one of your duties was to

21 provide security to the brigade commander, can you confirm that? Can you

22 confirm that among your other multiple tasks, you were also practically

23 the bodyguard of the brigade commander.

24 A. When we would be in the field or when we would be travelling, I

25 played that role, but when we were in the barracks in Bilmiste, there was

Page 18788

1 no need for me to provide security.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you assumed your duties,

3 did you know that the brigade commander had sometime previously been the

4 subject of an assassination attempt?

5 A. No, I didn't know that.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were securing the

7 commander in the field, it was to protect him from who, from the HVO, from

8 the Serbs, who did he need protection from?

9 A. I was guarding and protecting him from any activity by hostile

10 forces, enemy forces. And if I may add, we were always in the field where

11 there were troops all around, fighting was going on, so my job was to look

12 after him, to be close by, to protect.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm coming back to Vares. You

14 said at one point that when you arrived at Vares Majdan, you encountered a

15 checkpoint manned by the brigade's military police. How many men were

16 there at the checkpoint?

17 A. Four to five.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To the best of your knowledge,

19 did the military police of the 7th Brigade play within this brigade an

20 important role? How did you perceive the role of the military police?

21 Could you inform the Trial Chamber of your opinion of the military police?

22 A. As far as I know, within the perimeter of the barracks, they

23 guarded the gates to the barracks and they performed regular duties. For

24 instance, if a soldier would fail to come back from leave in time, they

25 would be sent to fetch him. Those were the basic duties of the police.

Page 18789

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If you know, were the military

2 policemen some soldiers who could be qualified as elite soldiers or could

3 anybody become a military policeman? For instance, could you, if you had

4 wanted to, become a military policeman or were some particular qualities

5 required?

6 A. Not necessarily. For instance, if somebody had served in the

7 former Yugoslav Peoples' Army as a military policeman, he had that

8 particular registered military specialty, and he could then become the --

9 a military policeman in our army because he was familiar with the duties

10 of the military police.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] About Vares, if I understood you

12 correctly, you arrived there coming from Bilmiste. You were on your way

13 to the Strijezevo village, and the next day, you travelled on to Vares

14 Majdan and then you came back to that village the day after next after

15 which you returned to the barracks in Bilmiste. Can you tell us exactly

16 how many days did you stay out in the field, two days, three days?

17 A. The first day when we came to Vares Majdan, we only stayed for an

18 hour. After that, we returned to Strijezevo village the same day, an hour

19 later, we returned to Strijezevo. And it was only the next day in the

20 morning that we went to Vares Majdan again and on that occasion, I stayed

21 at the checkpoint held by the military police while Mr. Kubura,

22 accompanied by his driver, went to Vares. It was around 3.00 p.m. --

23 correction, three hours later we returned to Strijezevo and then went on

24 back to Zenica.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You just said that the brigade

Page 18790












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18791

1 commander, Mr. Kubura, had gone to Vares town while you personally had

2 stayed at the checkpoint held by the military police. So if he had gone

3 to Vares town, how long after that did he come back?

4 A. Three hours later.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when he had come back to

6 Vares town, did he tell you anything, did he share with you any

7 impressions or did he tell you anything at all? And why didn't he take

8 you to Vares town with him?

9 A. Well, he didn't tell me anything in particular after he had come

10 back from Vares except that this civilian ceremony of handover, takeover

11 of power or government to civilian authorities had taken place. And the

12 reason that I didn't go was that I was a simple soldier, whereas this

13 event had been organized by civilian authorities and I was not included in

14 the programme developed by the protocol.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So who was guarding him then,

16 because you weren't around?

17 A. There was civilian police already available in Vares and they

18 provided security. The protocol section probably assigned civilian police

19 to provide security.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So for three hours, you were at

21 the checkpoint where you probably talked to those military police.

22 A. I didn't talk with them about anything in particular, I just

23 rested. I was looking around to see what was going on.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And while he was -- while you

25 were there, were they checking soldiers who were coming back from Vares or

Page 18792

1 were they, perhaps, doing no checking at all? Were there units, troops,

2 coming back from Vares?

3 A. There was some vehicles passing by, civilian vehicles. Some of

4 then went to Vares and came back. Two small cars, for instance, and in

5 their case, the military police checked both the passengers and the

6 vehicles. As for troops, there were no troops that day. At least I

7 didn't see any in Vares Majdan.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question, to your

9 knowledge during those checks made by the military police, were any

10 soldiers found in possession of property such as money or food that they

11 had taken in Vares or perhaps you didn't hear anything of the sort.

12 A. I have already said I didn't see any soldiers passing through that

13 checkpoint. Two to three civilian vehicles passed through carrying

14 civilian passengers and they were subjected to normal checks of both the

15 persons and the vehicles.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Prosecution?

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I just have one follow-up

19 question concerning this checkpoint.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:


22 Q. Sir, these two or three civilian vehicles with civilian

23 passengers, you observed the military police checking both those civilian

24 vehicles and the civilian inhabitants of those vehicles?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18793

1 Q. Do you recall what steps the military police took with respect to

2 the civilian passengers, did they ask to see their papers, did they

3 physically search them? What steps did you observe the military police

4 undertaking with respect to the civilians?

5 A. Well, the check looked like this: First, their papers were

6 checked, personal IDs, driver's licences, documentation for the vehicle.

7 The passengers did not actually get out of the car because they were

8 representatives of civilian authorities who were on their way to attend

9 the ceremony in Vares.

10 Q. What about any civilian vehicles or civilian persons coming out of

11 Vares, that is, travelling southbound through Vares Majdan?

12 A. The same routine control check of the boot of the car,

13 documentation on the car, et cetera, nothing else.

14 Q. So the civilian persons in the car remained in the car at that

15 point in time or did they get out of the vehicle?

16 A. They did not get out. The driver was the only one to get out to

17 open the boot.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, sir. No further questions.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel of

20 Mr. Hadzihasanovic.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

22 just a few questions to clarify.

23 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

24 Q. You said that Commander Kubura had a small radio. Would you

25 please tell me if that was a radio providing an open-type of

Page 18794

1 communication. In other words, not secured communications, the radio

2 could not be used for any confidential secure communication?

3 A. Every radio station had its code, code name and code language so

4 whenever such messages need to be transmitted, the code words would be

5 used.

6 Q. But my question had a different objective. That communication,

7 whatever it was despite the fact that it was coded could be intercepted by

8 the enemy?

9 A. I am not a signalsman, I cannot answer that.

10 Q. If I understood you correctly, you said that you played the role

11 of messenger for the commander and you transmitted messages to various

12 commanders within the brigade, commanding officers. You said that when

13 you say commanding officer, that could mean battalion commander?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could that imply also the members of the command of the 7th Muslim

16 Brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So every contact you had performing that function was within the

19 limits of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And when you spoke of communications on the part of the commander

22 through that radio he had, did he use that radio to contact with the

23 commanding officers of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that radio was a means for him to communicate with his

Page 18795

1 subordinate commanders such as battalion commanders and other commanding

2 officers within the 7th Brigade itself?

3 A. Probably.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

5 Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon.

7 MR. DIXON: Only one matter to clarify.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Dixon:

9 Q. Sir, you mentioned earlier that there was a UN presence at this

10 checkpoint in Vares Majdan. Can you just clarify when you saw the UN

11 there?

12 A. We saw the members of the UN troops at the very entrance to Vares

13 Majdan in the vicinity of the checkpoint held by the military police.

14 That was on the day when the operations took place.

15 Q. And where were the UN troops in relation to the checkpoint?

16 A. They were to the right of the checkpoint. On the

17 Vares-Majdan-Vares route, there was a checkpoint at a crossroads and to

18 the right, on the road to the right goes from the crossroads, that is

19 where the UN personnel carrier was stationed.

20 Q. Can you remember how close that was to the checkpoint?

21 A. It was about 20 metres away.

22 Q. And on the day of the operation when you were there at the

23 checkpoint, do you recall what the military police were doing on that day?

24 A. Well, they were checking the soldiers who were returning from

25 Vares and who were passing through. I don't know what their duties were

Page 18796

1 exactly, though. But on the whole, these soldiers who were entering and

2 leaving Vares on foot.

3 Q. On the following day when you stated that you saw the civilian

4 vehicles being checked by the military police, was there still a UN

5 presence there at that point?

6 A. Yes. Yes, they were there. And that was probably their

7 checkpoint or observation point. I don't know what it was.

8 Q. They were stationed at the same place, about 20 metres away.

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. DIXON: Thank you, sir.

11 Thank you, Your Honours, I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, this completes your

13 testimony. On behalf of the Judges, I would like to thank you for having

14 come to testify in The Hague at the request of Brigadier Kubura's Defence

15 counsel. I wish you a safe trip home. I will now ask the usher to escort

16 you out of the courtroom.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before we have our break, I

19 would like to ask the Defence whether the second witness is ready? Can we

20 commence with the examination of this witness?

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness is

22 ready and I think we can start hearing the witness after the break.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well in that case we will

24 now adjourn and we will resume at about 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

Page 18797

1 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume and I will ask

3 the usher to call the witness into the courtroom.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

6 like to make sure that you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm

7 saying into your own language. If so, please tell me that you can hear

8 and understand me.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear and understand you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

11 witness for Brigadier Kubura's defence. Before you take the solemn

12 declaration, I would be grateful if you could tell me your first and last

13 names, your date of birth, and your place of birth.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Fuad Kulovic, I was born

15 on the 16th of June 1961 in Kakanj in the municipality of Kakanj in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current profession?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I operate turbines in the Kakanj

19 thermoelectric power plant at the moment.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, did you hold a

21 position of any kind and if you were a member of the military, could you

22 tell us which unit you were a member of.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, I held the same position in

24 the Kakanj power plant and that was the case up until April 1994 when the

25 aggression commenced in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In April 1994, I was

Page 18798

1 mobilised by the Territorial Defence Staff in Kakanj where I remained

2 until the end of 1992. I was then transferred to the mountain battalion

3 which was based at the open-cast mine in Kakanj. I remained there until

4 the end of March 1993 and then I was transferred again to the 3rd

5 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade in Kakanj. The position I had was

6 within the intelligence department.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I was saying that on line 17 and

9 18, page 32, it was not 1993, it was 1992.

10 Sir, have you ever testified before a national or international

11 court about the events that took place in your country in 1992 and 1993 or

12 is this the first time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I have

14 appeared before a court.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

16 solemn declaration.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

22 Before I give the floor to Defence counsel who will commence with

23 the examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you with some

24 information to ensure that everything runs smoothly. First, as

25 Brigadier Kubura's Defence has certainly explained to you, you will have

Page 18799












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18800

1 to answer the questions that they will put to you. According to the

2 schedule, Defence counsel will require about one and a half hours to

3 question you about the events that you were a direct witness of or that

4 you heard about. Afterwards, the Prosecution may -- afterwards,

5 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team may put questions to you and then

6 members of the Prosecution may conduct the cross-examination.

7 As a rule, the Prosecution can take the same amount of time for

8 their cross-examination which means that if it took the Defence an hour

9 and a half to examine you, the Prosecution is allocated the same amount of

10 time.

11 After this stage has been completed, Brigadier Kubura's Defence

12 may ask you additional questions that relate to the questions put to you

13 by the Prosecution. Then, the three Judges who are before you may also

14 ask you questions. Perhaps you are wondering why the Judges will question

15 you. Judges question witnesses because this is provided for in the Rules

16 of Procedure but sometimes it is necessary for the Judges to clarify

17 certain answers or the Judges believe that information is missing,

18 information that needs to be obtained in order to determine the truth. In

19 such a case, the Judges may ask you to express your opinions on certain

20 matters.

21 Once the Judges have finished putting their questions to you, we

22 give the floor to the Defence and the Prosecution so that they can ask you

23 any questions that arise from the Judges' questions. And naturally,

24 Defence counsel is the last to take the floor and ask you questions.

25 I also need to inform you of two other matters. You have taken

Page 18801

1 the solemn declaration. You have said that you will speak the truth. You

2 have just said that this is the first time that you have appeared before

3 the Tribunal. You have said that you will speak the truth and this

4 excludes the possibility of giving false testimony, naturally. False

5 testimony is punishable by this Tribunal and a sentence not exceeding 7

6 years could be imposed on a witness for giving false testimony.

7 And there is another thing I'd like to point out to you. This is

8 part of the common law procedure, but you have the right to refuse to

9 answer a question if you believe that your answer could be used to

10 prosecute you at a subsequent date if you believe that your answer could

11 incriminate you. In such exceptional circumstances, and so far we have

12 never had such a case, in such exceptional circumstances, the Judges may

13 compel you to answer the question because given that you have come to

14 testify at The Hague, it is your duty to answer questions.

15 If you are, however, you are compelled by the Judges to answer

16 such a question, you are granted immunity; whatever you say cannot be used

17 against you. But as I have already said, such a case has never arisen

18 yet, and we hope that he with will never have to deal with such a case.

19 As the procedure followed here is based on the common law

20 procedures, the procedure is oral. We have no written documents. We know

21 nothing about the testimony that you will be giving. Whatever you say

22 will be appearing on the monitor in front of you. The transcript on the

23 monitor is in English. If you understand English, you can follow the

24 transcript that appears on your monitor. If you don't understand English,

25 you will have to rely on the interpreters who are interpreting what I am

Page 18802

1 saying in French and what the other parties, the Prosecution will be

2 saying in English.

3 Since the procedure is oral, it is very important for you to

4 provide full and extensive answers. Try to be as precise as possible

5 because as I have already said, we have no documents concerning your

6 testimony. So it is your testimony that will establish, that will form

7 the transcript. When I say the transcript, I'm referring to everything

8 that appears on the screen whenever someone takes the floor.

9 If you feel that a question is too confused or you don't

10 understand it, don't hesitate to put it to the party asking you to

11 rephrase it so that you can answer the question as fully and as precisely

12 as possible. It's possible that you might be shown documents in the

13 course of the proceedings, either military documents or documents that you

14 may be familiar with or documents that you should be familiar with, given

15 the position that you held in the past. Perhaps you will be shown

16 documents, perhaps not; we will see. But if such documents are shown to

17 you, the reason for showing them to you will be to ask you for your

18 opinion on the contents of the document.

19 This hearing should be completed by 1.45. We will be having a 20

20 to 25 minute break given the need to change the tapes and also -- and in

21 order to have a break so that you can have a rest. Answering questions

22 incessantly can be quite tiring. According to the schedule, you will be

23 testifying today and perhaps your testimony will continue tomorrow. This

24 all depends on the time the Defence counsel and the Prosecution will need

25 to examine you. It might be necessary for you to return tomorrow. If you

Page 18803

1 run into any difficulties in the course of the proceedings, don't hesitate

2 to inform us of the fact. We are here to deal with any problems that may

3 arise.

4 This is the information that I wanted to provide you with in order

5 to ensure that the proceedings run smoothly.

6 I will now give the floor to the Defence for their

7 examination-in-chief.

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

9 believe that we will need an hour and a half for the examination-in-chief

10 of this witness, or that was what we believed we would need. But in fact,

11 we believe that it won't take more than 45 minutes. So apart from some

12 very general questions, we wanted this witness to testify about the events

13 in Kakanj in the middle of May 1993 and about the events in the Sretno

14 Motel so we believe that there will be sufficient time to complete the

15 witness of the hearing of this witness today.

16 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

17 Q. Mr. Kulovic, you have already answered a number of questions put

18 to you by the Presiding Judge about what you were doing in 1992 and 1993.

19 Perhaps it wasn't quite clear when you said that you were first a member

20 of the Territorial Defence and you said that you became a -- the member of

21 a certain battalion, which battalion was it and which brigade?

22 A. That was the battalion that was part of the 333rd Mountain Brigade

23 which was located in Busovaca municipality and that battalion, I don't

24 know who ordered its formation, was in Kakanj.

25 Q. While you were a member, of the Territorial Defence in Kakanj

Page 18804

1 municipality and while you were a member of this battalion of the 333rd

2 Brigade, did you meet Mr. Kubura?

3 A. I met Mr. Kubura in August 1992 and he appeared there from the

4 former JNA, he appeared in the Territorial Defence Staff. That was the

5 first time I saw him. I hadn't known him before the war.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are just a

7 few documents that we would like to use. I believe I would like to show

8 these documents to the witness. We have a sufficient number of copies for

9 everyone in the courtroom.

10 Q. Could you have a look at the document dated the 5th of September,

11 1992. Do you recognise the document? I have already shown it to you?

12 A. Yes, I can recognise it.

13 Q. Did you sign that -- who signed the document?

14 A. This document was signed by the then commander of the Territorial

15 Defence, Ibrahim Hukic.

16 Q. Have a look at item 1(a) where it says the 1st Battalion, it says

17 Kubura Amir the 1st Battalion commander, what is this order about?

18 A. It says "Amir Kubura," it says he was the deputy commander of the

19 1st battalion.

20 Q. Could you just say within which military formation?

21 A. Well, this document shows that Mr. Amir Kubura, when he arrived in

22 August 1992, I think that was the date, I can't remember the exact date,

23 but when he arrived, when he appeared, the command of the Territorial

24 Defence appointed him as the deputy commander of the 1st Battalion. As

25 far as I can remember at the time, the commander of that battalion was

Page 18805

1 Huzezner [phoen]. I think that was his name but it's not stated here.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you have a look at the second document dated the

3 1st of December. It's the command of the 3rd Corps -- it's from the

4 command of the 3rd Corps of the armed forces and under item 1(a) have a

5 look at that part of the document. Have a look at 1(a) and could you tell

6 us what this document is about?

7 A. Well, I can see an order here which was drafted by

8 General Enver Hadzihasanovic and Kubura Amir is being appointed as the

9 commander of a mountain battalion of the 333rd Brigade.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kulovic, until when exactly were you a member of

11 the 333rd Brigade?

12 A. I can't remember the exact date but I'm sure that it was up until

13 the end of March, 1993.

14 Q. When and in what manner did you arrive in the 7th Muslim Brigade

15 and where did you report to exactly?

16 A. I was transferred for the secretariat for national defence. I was

17 transferred to the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade which at the

18 time that I arrived there was based in the Doboj primary school. In fact

19 I was born in Doboj, so I am very familiar with that school. And we were

20 billeted in that primary school in Doboj.

21 Q. Were you assigned an establishment post or duties of any kind?

22 A. When I arrived in the battalion, there was a vacant post for an

23 intelligence officer so I was offered this post. I had never performed

24 such duties before but we were all amateurs in any case and we went to

25 war, we left the factory and went to war.

Page 18806

1 Q. You mentioned the duties of an intelligence officer. What sort of

2 duties did you have to perform?

3 A. Well, I was involved in certain operational intelligence about the

4 Serbian aggressor. I was involved in gathering intelligence, to the

5 extent that I was capable of doing that. I had to obtain intelligence

6 about the enemy's movement, the enemy's objectives. I obtained such

7 information from the soldiers who would return from the lines from other

8 brigades from the civilian population and so on and so forth.

9 Q. You said that the headquarters of the battalion were in the

10 primary school, do you know whether the headquarters of the 3rd Battalion

11 were located somewhere else later on?

12 A. Well, I don't know how all of this took place. I don't know who

13 issued the orders but I know or rather I assume that an order was issued

14 by the municipality of Kakanj. Since the children had to go to school an

15 order was issued to make the school available and we were transferred to

16 the Sretno Motel which assume was available at the time. I don't know the

17 exact date, but we moved out of the school and we moved into the Sretno

18 Motel.

19 Q. Mr. Kulovic, were you in Kakanj in mid-May 1993 when there was an

20 incident between members of the 7th Brigade military police and members of

21 the HVO?

22 A. I was in Kakanj or to be more precise, at the time I was in the

23 motel when the military police, the brigade military police from Zenica

24 came to the Sretno Motel. I had heard that they had come to Kakanj to

25 bring in some members of the 7th Muslim Brigade who had failed to report

Page 18807

1 in time after they had been granted leave, they had failed to report back

2 to their units and I didn't speak to them at the time. I had no contact

3 with them but I heard that they were supposed to bring in members of

4 Papratnica or some other village, a village near the power plant, but they

5 were supposed to bring in these men from that village.

6 Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. Can you remember when they

7 arrived?

8 A. I believe it was in the afternoon. I can't tell you precisely

9 what time it was but it was certainly in the afternoon. So they left,

10 probably towards the thermal power plant and an hour later, maybe half an

11 hour late - I wasn't paying attention because we didn't know what was

12 going to happen - three military policemen came, three or maybe four, came

13 back to the motel, taken aback, a little frightened, we asked them what

14 happened and they said they had been ambushed. They couldn't tell us

15 exactly where they had been ambushed because they don't know Kakanj and

16 the surrounding area and they said they had been encircled and managed to

17 get out.

18 Three or four of them managed to get out while the others remain

19 encircled and these three didn't know what was going on with their

20 comrades.

21 Q. So what happened after you received this information?

22 A. There was some troops at the motel, panic seized the troops

23 because these military policemen told us they had been fired at, they

24 didn't know whether their friends had been killed or wounded. All of us

25 were frightened of what might happen next. We didn't know at first what

Page 18808












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18809

1 to do. We were taken aback, taken completely by surprise.

2 Very soon after that, somebody informed us by telephone that this

3 battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade should not go anywhere, should not

4 leave the motel at all because the 309th Brigade was involved and Kakanj

5 was in their zone of responsibility. I went to the command of the 309th

6 Brigade to see if they had any better information about what was going on

7 on the ground. I believe I found there Dzemal Hadzic who was then

8 commander of the 309th Brigade. He was talking on the phone with Nevin

9 Maric, commander of the HVO. And he was asking Mr. Nevin Maric to refrain

10 from doing anything foolish, I believe that's exactly what he said,

11 "foolish," and to let those policemen go.

12 I went out of that office, I found a lot of people had gathered

13 around, many troops and other people. Anyway, the commander of the 309th

14 Brigade left the headquarters and I later found out that he had gone to

15 the thermal power plant for negotiations with the HVO.

16 I believe the French Battalion of the UNPROFOR was at the time

17 stationed at the thermal power plant.

18 Q. Were Mr. Catic and the deputy commander involved in the

19 negotiations?

20 A. I saw them coming and going from the command but --

21 Q. I meant to ask you, did you see them at the command even though

22 they were not directly involved in the negotiations with the HVO?

23 A. Yes, I saw them coming to the command of the 309th Brigade.

24 Anyway, I spent all this time there, both the civilian and military police

25 were there communicating through their radios, the civilians, the troops

Page 18810

1 could use the roads. The civilian and military police were located in

2 some sort of catering establishment near a place called Rampa, owned by a

3 certain Mr. Sikira. Those policemen had been locked up there, whereas one

4 of them was dragged off by the HVO. Where they didn't know, but it was

5 somewhere towards the Sutjeska river. We received information that the

6 UNPROFOR was following the developments; however, some troops came and

7 told us that these policemen who had returned from encirclement gathered

8 some members from around the motel in order to exchange them for the

9 members of the military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

10 Q. What time was it then?

11 A. It was already late. It was almost night as far as I can

12 remember. Can I continue? Late that evening, since I was constantly at

13 the headquarters of the command, I know that an APC of the French

14 Battalion of the UNPROFOR hauled in that member who had been kidnapped

15 from the group and the man was completely beaten up, black and blue. They

16 carried him out on a stretcher. He had been beaten on his elbows and

17 knees and I believe men from the 309th Mountain Brigade took him to the

18 hospital, whether to Zenica or to Kakanj, I wouldn't know.

19 Q. You said that all that time you were at the command. Which

20 command?

21 A. The command of the 309th Brigade.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you receive information at some point whether the

23 negotiations had taken place and whether they were successful?

24 A. Well, it was a long time ago, but I know that negotiations did

25 take place and the UNPROFOR had that information. Agreement was reached

Page 18811

1 to -- to make an exchange between the HVO and the 7th Muslim Brigade.

2 Anyway, sometime during the night, they were released. I'm just trying to

3 remember ...

4 Q. Can you tell us when that happened? Was it late in the evening

5 or ...

6 A. It was sometime in the evening. I can't tell you the hour.

7 Q. Do you know who brought those people to the Sretno Motel?

8 A. I received complete information only the next day. I was very

9 tired that night. I spent the night at home because my home isn't far

10 away from this place, and the next day when I returned to the motel, I was

11 informed that members of the brigade military police had brought in those

12 HVO members and, as I was told, when they saw what had happened to their

13 colleague, they were provoked into creating this accident. I would really

14 call it an accident. They beat up this HVO man; that was their reaction.

15 And I can tell you that what happened at the motel was not staged and was

16 not organized by anybody, it was not planned for us as a unit to create

17 problems with the HVO and to raise the tensions. We had our hands full

18 with our -- with our one enemy, we didn't need anymore. So I would really

19 call it an accident. I wish it hadn't happened, but it did.

20 Q. In the light of what you just said, do you know if any HVO members

21 had been brought in before what you call "the accident"?

22 A. First of all, we had no detention facility at the motel. All the

23 quarters were private. Perhaps somebody was brought in for an interview

24 but I didn't see any of that. This one ugly incident is the only thing

25 that I saw happening at the motel.

Page 18812

1 Q. What information did you receive the next day when you arrived at

2 the battalion? Did you learn whether those people were released?

3 A. When I came to the battalion, there was no one at the motel. The

4 exchange had already taken place. I can't remember when they were

5 released, whether it was in the morning or during the night. I can't

6 remember.

7 Q. You said you had met Mr. Kubura back in August 1992. Was

8 Mr. Kubura in Kakanj that day or maybe the next day?

9 A. Mr. Kubura's post was in Zenica. I am certain that I personally

10 did not see him in Kakanj either the day before or on that day.

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Mr. President, we would like to use one more document of the

13 Prosecution, namely P564. With your leave, we would like to show this

14 document to the witness.

15 Q. Mr. Kulovic, do you recognise this document?

16 A. I didn't understand.

17 Q. Did you recognise this document?

18 A. I'm seeing it for the first time or maybe I saw it before.

19 Q. Look at item 5. Actually, para 1, it says "relocate to Zagradje

20 village." Do you know whether it is?

21 A. Zagradje village, I believe, is two or three kilometres away from

22 my home, from my house.

23 Q. Look at item 5, it says "Inform the commander of the 7th Mountain

24 Brigade 3rd Battalion -- sorry, the commander of the 7th Brigade's 3rd

25 Battalion shall inform the commander of the 309th Brigade and the

Page 18813

1 commander of the Kakanj Municipal Staff." I would like to know whether

2 this Zagradje village is in the Kakanj municipality or some other

3 municipality.

4 A. This document certainly refers to Zagradje village in Kakanj

5 municipality because I have been there and some of our troops were always

6 located there.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

8 further questions for this witness and our examination is complete.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

10 Defence counsel for General Hadzihasanovic.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

12 witness at the moment, thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.

14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I do have a few questions.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

16 Q. Let me clarify a few points of your background. First of all, the

17 two documents you were shown which relate to -- to 1992, one was authored

18 by Ibrahim Hukic and the other one by General Enver Hadzihasanovic. At

19 that time, you didn't see those documents. It's the first time, I take

20 it, when you were proofed by Mr. Ibrisimovic, that's the first time you

21 saw those documents, but not in 1992 or 1993?

22 A. Let me tell you, it was really a long time ago. I can't be 100

23 per cent certain whether I saw these documents for the first time during

24 proofing or I saw them maybe at the time when they were written. From

25 this distance in time, I can't remember.

Page 18814

1 Q. Now, you said that you were part of the TO -- no, of the 333rd

2 mountain Brigade and then at one time, I think it was in March of 1993,

3 you got transferred to the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain

4 Brigade. Now, can you be a little more specific? At what time did you

5 actually become member of the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain

6 Brigade?

7 A. That was certainly in the last few days of March. I cannot tell

8 you the exact date but I know it was the end of March.

9 Q. Now, you also told us that at one time, the headquarters of the

10 battalion moved from that school to the Motel Sretno, can you tell us

11 approximately, if you recall after such a long time, when the headquarters

12 was moved?

13 A. Well, you see again, it was a long time ago and I can only say

14 that I suppose it was in April. I cannot claim anything with any

15 certainty because it was really a long time ago. I would be happy to tell

16 you the truth if I was certain, but all I can tell you it was maybe in

17 April, the beginning of May.

18 Q. And how many people were working or were part of the headquarters,

19 were working on those offices that were first located in the school and

20 then in the motel?

21 A. Well, you see, it was called a battalion but in reality, I don't

22 think the battalion had even 30 per cent of the prescribed personnel,

23 according to establishment. When I joined it, it was in the process of

24 slow establishment. There were a lot of posts still vacant as far as

25 commanding officers were concerned and as for the troops, we had two

Page 18815

1 companies or so.

2 Q. In those headquarters, was there a commander, a deputy commander,

3 a chief of staff, who was there?

4 A. When I joined the battalion, the commander was Catic. I forgot

5 his first name, maybe somebody can remind me. His last name was Catic, I

6 forget his first name now. So he was battalion commander when I joined.

7 The Chief of Staff was not at all envisaged, according to establishment.

8 There was a deputy commander, Kasim Alajbegovic, and I really don't know

9 about the Chief of Staff. I don't think there was supposed to be one.

10 Q. And the commander's first name, Nihad Catic?

11 A. Nihad, you are correct. Nihad Catic.

12 Q. He was removed, wasn't he, sometime in June, towards the end of

13 June; do you remember that?

14 A. Towards the end of June, I remember there was some transfers

15 within the unit, personnel changes within the brigade, and I believe this

16 Catic left for Zenica on another brigade post, I don't know which, but he

17 was not replaced. That much I know. At that point, even I was

18 transferred to a different battalion but I don't think anybody was

19 replaced.

20 Q. So you don't know that your commander, Mr. Catic, was removed for

21 failing to carry out an order to prevent crime and looting in the Kakanj

22 area? That's not something you had heard at that time?

23 A. You must believe me if I say that I really don't know anything

24 about it. Nobody informed me personally whether it was a simple staffing

25 change or it was some sort of punishment.

Page 18816

1 Q. Of the members of the battalion staff, was there a person called

2 Saban Zunic who was a operations officer?

3 A. I don't know these men for sure. The name does not ring a bell.

4 I'm not aware of anybody in Kakanj named Zulic in our battalion, 99 per

5 cent of men came from the municipality of Kakanj, from the town of

6 Kakanj. Zunic or Zulic, I really don't know.

7 Q. Saban H. Zunic, you've never heard of him.

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. Let me go on to that afternoon in May 1993, and I don't think you

10 told us a date. Perhaps you can't but can you place it ...

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

13 think to this last question, the witness answered that he is not aware of

14 this first and last name but I don't think his answer was recorded in the

15 transcript.


17 Q. Yes, Mr. Kulovic, can you please tell us whether you are aware of

18 a person called Saban H. Zunic who was part of the -- any military

19 formation in Kakanj in May 1993?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Now, let me turn to those events about military police who came

22 from Zenica and the beatings. Can you tell us a little bit more what time

23 it was, what date it was, to start with, because you were quite precise

24 about what time of day it was in the afternoon. Do you know more about

25 the date?

Page 18817












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18818

1 A. I think -- I don't know. Was it 18th May, some other date? You

2 see, I can't be certain which date it was. I believe it was in the second

3 half of May.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... perfectly okay, your answer.

5 Now, you said these military police from the brigade came from Zenica. Do

6 you remember who was the chief of the police who came with them to Kakanj?

7 A. I did not see the chief of police. Those policemen came alone. I

8 didn't even see them when they arrived. I was inside when they arrived

9 and they dropped by to take something and I heard from two of them where

10 they were going. I didn't know either of the men personally, I just saw

11 military police insignia on their arms. They had those white belts, the

12 regular military police equipment and uniform, but I didn't know any of

13 them personally, I didn't see their chief and I'm not aware whether he

14 accompanied the group or not.

15 Q. And how many were there? How many members of the military police

16 who showed up at your headquarters?

17 A. I'm telling you again, I didn't see them all, but from what I

18 heard and found out, it is 10 to 12.

19 Q. Now, you told us that there were some troops around the hotel in

20 and around the motel, and can you tell us what troops were there?

21 A. I am not quite clear about this question, what troops -- what

22 troops do you mean?

23 Q. Yes. You told us that the military police came and they then went

24 to that plant and then some members of the military police came back, and

25 then you said that the troops around the motel started to panic. And I'm

Page 18819

1 merely asking you to at the us what troops these are, what formations, to

2 whom do they belong?

3 A. Those troops were not around, they were within the facility,

4 troops from the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade. And since our

5 municipality is Kakanj, our own soldiers were afraid for their families in

6 case a conflict broke out, they were afraid that there might be fighting

7 between the Croatian villages and us, and I have to tell you that since --

8 from when we were established, there were many, many provocations by the

9 HVO in the Kakanj area. This was just one in a long line of provocations.

10 They had dug up trenches all around Kakanj. We never dug out a single

11 trench. Our troops were sent to various locations but it never crossed

12 our mind to fight with our own neighbours in our own municipality.

13 To this day, I have very good relations with Croats and Serbs I

14 work with. I treat them and think of them as my colleagues, and I'm

15 coming back now to the HVO. They created non-stop provocations, from

16 digging trenches, shooting during the night, some people were murdered at

17 some point, some deportations took place. I can't tell you everything

18 that happened.

19 Q. Now, in those days in May, you were the chief of intelligence of

20 the 3rd Battalion; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, in the battalion's intelligence department.

22 Q. And you also told us this morning that you were also interested,

23 as you should, about the enemy, you know, what their forces are. But let

24 me ask you about your own forces. On that day, 18th -- mid-May 1993, watt

25 the 3rd Battalion also reinforced by parts of the 2nd Battalion?

Page 18820

1 A. Well, look, on that day, on the day of the incident, I went to the

2 309th Mountain Brigade and I was there all the time. I didn't return to

3 the motel, I was gathering intelligence from the field because all the

4 information, all the intelligence arrived in the 309th. As to who went to

5 the motel, who left the motel, I don't know, I wasn't there. On the

6 following day when I arrived at the motel, I know that I didn't see any

7 detainees there, I don't know whether they were exchanged but on the

8 following day, there was no one there. I didn't see any members from

9 other battalions at the motel.

10 Q. Okay. Let me follow-up first on what you just told us. At what

11 time did you leave your headquarters at the motel in order to go to the

12 headquarters of the 309th Brigade? What time in the day was that?

13 A. Well, it was perhaps about 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon. I don't

14 know exactly. I really don't know the precise time.

15 Q. And the next day, you returned to the motel; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And at what time did you return to the motel?

18 A. Well, it was perhaps around noon.

19 Q. So the information you have basically about the events at the

20 motel in that evening, that night, that morning is basically what others

21 told you?

22 A. I don't think I have understood you.

23 Q. Okay. Because you were not at the motel after 3.00, 4.00 in the

24 afternoon before you returned the next day, all the information you

25 relayed to us today about incidents of occurring, you know, to people at

Page 18821

1 the motel is what other people told you; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Now, let me just go back to the question I asked you previously.

4 Are you saying you don't know whether parts of the 2nd Battalion

5 reinforced the 3rd Battalion or are you saying there was no reinforcement

6 of the 2nd Battalion into the 3rd Battalion in any combat or other

7 activities in those days?

8 A. Well, look, I'm not saying that that didn't occur on that day.

9 I'm not saying that because I don't know. I wasn't there at the time. I

10 don't know who went to the motel, who left the motel, so I don't know

11 because I didn't see that. I can only tell you about what I saw or about

12 what I heard but I can't say anything about the 2nd Battalion because I

13 didn't see any members of the 2nd Battalion.

14 Q. But you are the chief of intelligence of that battalion. How can

15 you advise your commander about how to fight the enemy if you don't even

16 know who is part of your own troops?

17 A. I don't know if you have been following everything I have been

18 saying from the outset. I told you that I worked as an operator in the

19 Kakanj power plant but it just so happened that I became involved in

20 intelligence matters. We weren't professionals, we didn't have a

21 professional army, we were training and unfortunately, we had to go to

22 war. So if you consider me to be an intelligence officer and yet you

23 believe that I have certain shortcomings, the shortcomings are the result

24 of the fact that I was an amateur. But it's not only that there were

25 amateurs in the 7th Muslim Brigade, all the men in all the brigades were

Page 18822

1 amateurs. 99 per cent of the officers were not professionals. There were

2 very few professionals.

3 Q. Let me ask about what you told us this morning on the beating of

4 that HVO person. Now you told us you were informed by somebody that this

5 had occurred. Can you tell us who informed you about the beating of this

6 HVO soldier, what you have described as an "accident." Who told you that

7 information?

8 A. I don't understand your question. Are you asking me about a

9 member of the HVO who was beaten or a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade who

10 was beaten.

11 Q. No, about a member of the HVO or a civilian, a Croat civilian.

12 A. I didn't saying anything about that. I said that I had

13 information when I was in the command of the 309th Brigade, this is what I

14 heard from one of the soldiers who appeared there and he said that the

15 military police had brought in members of the HVO to the motel. He didn't

16 mention any civilians. I didn't see whether this person was a civilian or

17 a soldier. All I know that I was told that they were HVO members because,

18 according to what I heard, they also found certain weapons on these men

19 when they brought them in.

20 Q. And my question again is who told you that? You said "one of the

21 soldiers who appeared there." Was that one of the members of the military

22 police?

23 A. No, he wasn't a member of the military police. I can't remember

24 now but he was one of our men. Some of our troops from the motel would go

25 up to the 309th to see what was happening there because they were worried

Page 18823

1 about their families. They were afraid that a conflict would break out

2 and as they would go up there, I heard that the police had brought someone

3 in in order to exchange them for their own men.

4 Q. Didn't you tell us this morning that an accident occurred? Do you

5 remember that? Because some people were provoked because of the -- an MP

6 was injured and you explained the way that provocation resulted in an

7 accident; do you remember having told us that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, who was the victim of that accident?

10 A. Well, the victims were certainly more the members of the HVO

11 rather than members of the other side. I couldn't see the state that they

12 were in. There were a number of men, I don't know how many exactly --

13 well, let's say there was one man who had been beaten up and the others

14 had been captured. But this young man or rather this policeman from the

15 7th Muslim Brigade, I saw him myself and he was unable to walk. They had

16 beaten him on the elbows and the knees. The French Battalion took him out

17 from the personnel carrier on a stretcher.

18 Q. I'm still not entirely sure. The way I understand your testimony

19 is there were several beatings and people were beaten who were part of the

20 HVO.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

23 think that the witness has already said on a number of occasions that he

24 didn't see those individuals. He didn't mention any beating. My learned

25 colleague is now putting a question to the witness and making certain

Page 18824

1 suggestions.

2 MR. WAESPI: If I may, Mr. President, I'm just confused because I

3 understood the witness before the break, in chief, saying that an incident

4 happened to a member of the military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain

5 Brigade, that he was beaten up, and that this had provoked some other

6 members of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade to beat up an HVO member and he

7 described that as an accident.

8 That's what I heard the witness saying this morning and I would

9 just like him to confirm and clarify what perhaps is a confusion.

10 Q. Can you follow me, Mr. Kulovic?

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. So initially there was an incident which involved an HVO military

13 police member who was a victim of a beating, I think he had bruises on the

14 elbows and other injuries; is that correct?

15 A. He wasn't an HVO member, he was a member of the 7th Muslim

16 Brigade, a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade was beaten up by the HVO.

17 That is what I witnessed when he was taken to the command of the 309th

18 Brigade. The French Battalion of UNPROFOR brought in a member of the

19 police force. He'd been kidnapped by the HVO. They'd beaten him up and

20 he was then taken to the command of the 309th Brigade. That's what I saw

21 but I didn't see anything at Motel Sretno, I saw what happened up in the

22 command of the 309th Brigade. I saw that with my very own eyes.

23 Q. Yes, I understood that far. And then you told us that this

24 incident provoked the beating of an HVO victim and you described that

25 beating as an accident?

Page 18825

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this is all very confusing.

2 Just a minute. I will ask the witness some questions because it is a

3 little confusing.

4 With regard to your answers to the questions put to you, as far as

5 I have understood your testimony, initially there were members of the

6 military police who had been encircled by the HVO and you said that they

7 went to the Sretno Motel, there were through or four of them, and said

8 that they were there because friends of theirs had been encircled by the

9 HVO. And you said that you then went to the 309th Brigade to see what the

10 problem was.

11 Is that, in fact, how all of this started?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I answer the question?

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, do answer the question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, it happened just

15 as you said.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. That's what I

17 understood. And then when you were in the 309th Brigade, according to

18 what you said, a member of the 7th Brigade arrived, a member who had been

19 beaten up by the HVO and you added that this member of the 7th Brigade was

20 carried on a stretcher. Can you confirm that as well?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can confirm that in the

22 evening, UNPROFOR brought a member of the police force from 7th Muslim

23 Brigade to the command of the 309th Brigade. They drove him there in

24 their personnel carrier. I was present and I saw them taking this man out

25 of the personnel carrier on a stretcher because he was unable to walk.

Page 18826












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18827

1 Later, they transferred him to a hospital in Kakanj or Zenica, I

2 don't know where. But he was transferred to a hospital. That is what I

3 said.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So that is the

5 situation. I will now give the floor to the Prosecution again. Things

6 are clear now.


8 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Kulovic, that a member of the 7th Muslim

9 Mountain Brigade was also beating somebody else, was beating a member of

10 the HVO or a Croat civilian. Have you heard about that during that stay?

11 A. I haven't understood the question. Where? What area?

12 Q. This morning, you told us that an accident occurred, an

13 unfortunate accident; do you remember having testified that?

14 A. Yes. My testimony about what happened at the motel concerns all

15 of the events and all of these events were unfortunate, the blockade of --

16 or the encirclement of members of the 7th and the events around the motel,

17 so all of these events, unfortunate events.

18 Q. So are you saying you don't remember that there was an unfortunate

19 incident in which a member of the HVO or a Croat civilian has been beaten.

20 Are you saying that didn't happen?

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness has

23 just clarified the situation in response to your very precise questions.

24 My learned colleague is trying to confuse the witness again. He did not

25 mention any civilians or HVO members being beaten up. We are wasting time

Page 18828

1 discussing these matters. I think we have to try and expedite the

2 proceedings and deal with this.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The question the

4 Prosecution put to you concerns two incidents, we have two incidents. The

5 first incident was when you were at Motel Sretno, the military police

6 arrived and they said that they had been encircled, shots had been fired;

7 that was the first incident.

8 The second incident was when you were at the 309th Brigade and the

9 French Battalion, the UNPROFOR French Battalion delivered a member of the

10 military police from the 7th Brigade who had been beaten up by the HVO.

11 That is the second incident. And now, the Prosecution is putting a

12 question to you that concerns another incident. The Prosecution is asking

13 you whether, as far as you know, you heard that HVO members had been

14 beaten up in the Sretno Motel. This is another incident. So that is the

15 question. Please answer the question.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not a problem. I immediately

17 said that I didn't see that but I heard and I know that there was such an

18 incident. HVO members were brought in and beaten up. I don't deny the

19 fact. That is the truth. But I myself did not see this.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There we are.

21 MR. WAESPI: I'm really obliged to you for bringing that out of

22 this witness.

23 Q. And who told you about that incident?

24 A. Again, I don't understand your question. Do you mean when I was

25 in the 309th Brigade, up there or ...

Page 18829

1 Q. Mr. Kulovic, you just responded to the -- to Mr. President's

2 questions and I quote you, "HVO members were brought in and beaten up."

3 And you said beforehand, "I didn't see that but I heard." My question is:

4 From whom did you hear that?

5 A. On the following day, the day after the incident, I arrived at the

6 Sretno Motel in the afternoon and members of our battalion told me about

7 this unfortunate incident down there. They told me about the incident.

8 Q. And do you remember whom from your battalion told you that?

9 A. Well, believe me, it's very difficult for me to answer the

10 question, not because I don't want to but I can't remember. I really

11 can't remember. You know, I don't want to give you the wrong answer. I

12 can't remember who it was but I know that when I arrived there, I was told

13 by someone that such an incident had occurred.

14 Q. And why were you told? Why did these soldiers come to you? Was

15 it in your capacity as --

16 A. No, perhaps you haven't understood me. They did not report to me.

17 It's not as if I arrived at the motel and then someone reported this to

18 me, because I wasn't responsible for such matters. That's the first

19 thing. And then secondly, well this was something that I just heard as I

20 was passing through. It wasn't an official report of any kind.

21 Q. And when you say you weren't responsible for that matter, who was

22 responsible for that matter?

23 A. Well, according to the chain of command, well, you know exactly

24 what the hierarchy is, and as to who was responsible, I couldn't really

25 say now. I don't know. I couldn't say. I don't know.

Page 18830

1 Q. Who is responsible for detaining prisoners, who is in charge of

2 detaining prisoners in your unit, in your battalion?

3 A. Look, no one ordered those policemen, no one ordered the military

4 policemen to capture certain HVO members. This is something they did on

5 their own initiative. I don't know how else I could explain it but it was

6 done on their own initiative.

7 Q. You just said that you think they did it on their own initiative,

8 why do you say that? Why do you know that?

9 A. Well, look, I'll go back to what I was saying before. On the

10 following day I arrived in the battalion and when I spoke to the troops

11 and certain colleagues, unofficially I found out that military policemen

12 had done what they had done on their own initiative, without having

13 received an order to act in such a way.

14 Q. And from whom did you find out unofficially that they had done

15 that on their own initiative?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He's already answered the

17 question by saying that he didn't know. That's what the Defence would

18 like to say. Don't insist, as the witness has said, that he cannot

19 remember.

20 MR. WAESPI: Very well, Mr. President.

21 Q. Now, do you know whether there was an investigation done into the

22 beating of these HVO people? Have you heard about any investigation?

23 A. Well, believe me, I assume that an investigation was launched, but

24 this is an assumption. I'm not sure, and no one informed me of the fact,

25 but I assume that an investigation should have been launched but I

Page 18831

1 personally know nothing about this.

2 Q. Who was the chief of security within your battalion?

3 A. Mr. Huso Lihovic.

4 Q. So your function was only related to intelligence, you were only

5 the chief of intelligence and there was a second chief and he was the

6 chief of security?

7 A. At that time in the army, the intelligence officer was separate

8 from the security officer; these were two separate posts.

9 Q. Now, let me go back to the answer you gave just half a minute ago.

10 You said that "I assume that an investigation should have been launched

11 but I personally know nothing about this."

12 Now, are you saying it should have been launched or in your

13 opinion, it must be launched? You just said "I assume" so if you can

14 clarify what your position is.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered

17 the question. He said that he assumes that there should have been an

18 investigation but he says that he knows nothing about this so there is no

19 point for the Prosecution to demand whether it should have been launched

20 or must have been launched.

21 MR. WAESPI: There are two differences, whether an investigation

22 has been launched and I think he said he assumes, and the other one is

23 whether it should have been done because I assume it's a serious thing,

24 the beating. So my question is he, as the chief of intelligence, whether

25 he thinks today in this court, that this incident should have been

Page 18832

1 investigated. That's my question to this witness about this incident.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kulovic, when you returned

3 to the Sretno Motel, you heard that there had been an incident and in

4 response to a question from the Prosecution, you said that you assumed

5 that perhaps there was an investigation or perhaps an investigation should

6 have been launched. So were you aware of the fact that an investigation

7 was launched or were you not aware of any investigation because you aren't

8 responsible for such matters? What could you say about the investigation

9 that was, perhaps, launched or perhaps not? What sort of information

10 could you provide us with about this?

11 Firstly, did this fall within your competence and if not, what did

12 you know about a non -- investigation that was launched that should have

13 been launched [as interpreted]?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally -- I wasn't responsible

15 for the events around the motel. As an intelligence officer, I did not

16 deal with security matters. As far as the investigation is concerned, all

17 I can do is repeat that is that I wasn't provided with any information but

18 I assume that at the time there were intensive preparations for combat.

19 It was a long time ago so I couldn't answer that question. I can only say

20 that I don't know whether an investigation was launched or not.

21 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I have about five more minutes with

22 this witness. I don't know whether we should stop for the recess or

23 whether I should continue.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue for another five

Page 18833

1 minutes and then we'll take a break.


3 Q. Now, were you questioned by anybody by your chief of security, by

4 any authorities about this incident, about what you know or don't know

5 about this incident?

6 A. Nobody ever asked anything of me.

7 Q. Now, since you had heard about a serious thing happening in

8 your -- in that headquarters, did you personally report what you had heard

9 about that to somebody?

10 A. Well, I don't know from my level who I was supposed to report

11 things to. I don't even understand your question.

12 Q. If you are an officer in the ABiH army, were you not, at the time,

13 one of the section chiefs, if I may call it, so in a battalion, and you

14 are hearing about the mistreatment of prisoners in your headquarters,

15 don't you think it's your obligation to report it to your commander?

16 A. I believe my commander was aware of it. There was no need for me

17 to inform him. I mean battalion commander.

18 Q. You must have been very sure about that, that he knew about that

19 incident.

20 A. I'm telling you again, I did not speak personally to the commander

21 about this but he was somewhere around the motel himself. I supposed that

22 he knew about it.

23 Q. Now, you talked about - and that's my last question or small

24 issue - that there were HVO soldiers held or detained at the motel. Were

25 there civilians among these HVO officers? I know you weren't there, but

Page 18834

1 were you informed that there were also civilians among the people who were

2 held at the motel?

3 A. Nobody told me, they only mentioned the HVO. HVO can be used as a

4 broad term. A soldier of the HVO may wear civilian clothing when at home,

5 for instance. When I come back home, I, too, shed my uniform and put on

6 civilian clothes. So I don't know whether in this instance whether they

7 were real civilians or whether they were soldiers.

8 Q. And my last question is, when did the military police who came

9 from Zenica to Kakanj, when they left the motel, when did they leave the

10 hotel after all this commotion occurred?

11 A. We are coming back to that again and I'm telling you, again, I

12 didn't go back to the motel that night, I went home to sleep and when I

13 returned the next day, there were no military police within the perimeter

14 of the motel.

15 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much for your answers.

16 Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to take

18 the break and we are going to resume around 1300 hours.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, with your leave, I just have one

23 question about the location to this witness.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.


Page 18835












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18836

1 Q. Just one last question, Mr. Kulovic. You told us a lot about the

2 309th Brigade, the headquarters where you spent sometime on that day in

3 May. Can you tell us where exactly the headquarters of the 309th Brigade

4 was and how far away from the Motel Sretno that was?

5 A. As for the distance from the motel, it was maybe 2 kilometres,

6 say; I don't know exactly. But the place where the command was, was what

7 we called the cultural hall. Or let me be more precise, the town library

8 of Kakanj was around there and that was the precise location of the

9 command of the 309th Brigade at the time.

10 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 Redirect?

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions for redirect.

14 Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Then I have some questions for

16 the sake of clarification.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You explained that the military

19 policemen had arrived, there were three or four of them, and they said

20 that they had been attacked and encircled by the HVO and for a number of

21 hours, they remained there. Do you know what became of those who had been

22 encircled? Did you receive any subsequent information about the encircled

23 men?

24 A. The information that I have from -- or rather about the policemen

25 who remained encircled is that the HVO had come from Catici, from that

Page 18837

1 direction, and made a full circle around them. They hid into a catering

2 establishment. The HVO managed to drag out one of them from this catering

3 establishment and take him in the direction of Sutjeska. Nobody told me

4 anything about any abuse of these men because the UNPROFOR did not have

5 any such information. The UNPROFOR didn't have any information that the

6 members of the 7th Brigade were abused.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before that time in 1993, were

8 there any important clashes between the ABiH and the HVO in the area of

9 Kakanj or was that the first serious indent because you said you the men

10 were afraid of what might happen to the general population in case of a

11 serious clash. Was that the only incident or were there others?

12 A. I believe that I mentioned in one of my statements, prior

13 statements, something about it. Before the aggression, we lived together,

14 Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, and we kept guard around our villages. From the

15 time the HVO was established, somebody ordered these neighbours of ours

16 not to keep guard together with us any longer but to retreat instead to

17 the highest elevations around Kakanj where the population was mostly

18 Croat. So from that moment until that last incident, there were quite a

19 lot of incidents in Kakanj.

20 Maybe I mentioned this before, maybe not: At the time of

21 shooting, tracing -- tracer bullets and other ammunition was used and the

22 HVO pulled out heavier weapons taking them through Muslim villages. For

23 instance, on one occasion, Croats who know that Muslims do not eat pork

24 killed a pig and took it through Kakanj. They created different incidents

25 as well. For instance, on the occasion of the given of the solemn oath,

Page 18838

1 they blocked Kakanj and they placed snipers on every high-rise building in

2 Kakanj. This I know with 100 per cent certainty.

3 So there were all sorts of provocations and as our people used to

4 say, there were 100 of alarms and thank God nothing more serious, even

5 more serious happened. But even what happened is quite enough.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said in response to Defence

7 questions that military policemen had arrived to arrest deserters from the

8 7th Brigade who had failed to report back to duty so that was the reason

9 why the military police came in the first place. Was it not?

10 A. According to my information, they came in order to take into

11 custody a number of army members from the village of Papratnica and maybe

12 some other villages, that's the information I have.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are telling us that the

14 next day when you returned to Sretno Motel, you learned there had been an

15 incident between the military police and members of the HVO where blows

16 were exchanged. Later on, was this incident the subject of talk and

17 comments or was nothing more said about it? What can you tell us about

18 the aftermath of this incident?

19 A. In the days that followed after the incident, fighting intensified

20 outside of Kakanj so that units were preparing for movement. I know, for

21 instance, that one unit was going to the battlefield in Ovnak and the

22 preparations were very hurried and intense.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So when you

24 returned, that's what you said, but I want to be sure and to hear your

25 confirmation. When you returned, there were neither military policemen

Page 18839

1 nor HVO members at the Sretno Motel, there were only soldiers from your

2 own battalion. That's the scene you found the next day.

3 A. That's correct.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And with Mr. Catic, brigade

5 commander, you never discussed the problem again?

6 A. Mr. Catic was the commander of this battalion and we never

7 discussed this event, the two much us.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You also said that

9 there were two different structures, intelligence - that was your

10 responsibility - and the military side security where your other

11 colleagues were in charge. So when you learned -- in fact, if you had

12 been present on the spot and found out that your men had been taken away,

13 what would you have done?

14 A. If I had been there, it is quite certain that I wouldn't bring in

15 those members to the motel and even if I had done so, I would have made

16 sure that no incident occurred.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you never discussed this

18 with the security men? Was that, in fact, the problem, that you didn't

19 discuss it with the security?

20 A. Even on the day when those policemen arrived, I don't believe I

21 saw him near the motel. That day when the military police came from

22 Zenica, I don't remember seeing him. As for the next day, I'm not

23 certain. But I know for sure I had no contact with him.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But since you, yourself, went to

25 the headquarters of the 309th Brigade, which is just 200 metres from the

Page 18840

1 motel, was there an officer in charge when you were leaving? Can you

2 remember that? Was there an officer present there when you were leaving

3 to see what was going on at the 309th Brigade?

4 A. I was at the headquarters of the command of the 309th all the

5 time, Commander Catic and Deputy Commander Kasim Alajbegovic came and

6 went. I think the security officer also came and went but I'm not sure

7 about him.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Prosecution?

10 MR. WAESPI: No questions, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence team of General

12 Hadzihasanovic?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a couple of questions.

14 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

15 Q. Mr. Kulovic, in response to the questions asked by the Trial

16 Chamber, you said that this event had been preceded by a number of

17 provocations. Did I understand you correctly as saying that all those

18 provocations that you described were created by the HVO after they were

19 established in Kakanj?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it also correct that the 309th Brigade and the municipal staff

22 of Kakanj as well as your own battalion made every effort to resolve these

23 provocations and avoid conflict? Is my understanding of your testimony

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18841

1 Q. Also in response to the questions asked by the Presiding Judge,

2 you stated the reasons why you acted that way. You said namely that you

3 had your hands full with the one enemy you were handling. Did you mean to

4 imply your fighting with the Serb army?

5 A. Yes, that's what I meant.

6 Q. Army units from Kakanj were, in fact, holding the front line

7 against the Serb army over a considerable territory towards Vozeca [phoen]

8 and Breza?

9 A. Yes, on the Vogosca battlefield we held the front line over 30

10 kilometres long and we had a considerable length of the front line from

11 Visoko towards Sarajevo.

12 Q. And while you were defending this important front line, as you

13 said, the HVO was getting entrenched within this territory at the highest

14 elevations from which they could control both Kakanj and the surrounding

15 villages?

16 A. Correct. If I may clarify, the HVO created a genuine military

17 defence line with entrenchments, with positions of heavy weaponry. An

18 anti-aircraft machine-gun was positioned at an elevation in such a way as

19 to have within range the entire town, so that is absolutely correct.

20 Q. Since you were an intelligence officer, your principal task, and

21 the principal task of the men under you in the intelligence organ, was to

22 gather information about the enemy, both the Serb army and the HVO. Is

23 that the reason why you are absolutely certain about this information

24 concerning the conduct of the HVO?

25 A. You could define it that way.

Page 18842

1 Q. In view of this information and your efforts to avoid this

2 conflict, were you also acting that way because parts of Kakanj

3 municipality were the only place through which humanitarian convoys could

4 pass towards Vares and on to Eastern Bosnia, and if that road was cut off

5 or blocked, a large number of troops would have been deprived of any

6 assistance at all?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Let me ask you another thing: As an intelligence officer in the

9 previous period, especially after the offensive carried out by the HVO in

10 the Lasva Valley, did you learn about the intentions of the HVO to link up

11 forces from Kiseljak and Busovaca with the forces in Vares?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I suppose the Prosecution

13 will say that the Judges did not ask anything about this and that you are

14 going beyond the scope of their questions. If you are asking these

15 questions, it is for the sake of background information.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, since you

17 mentioned incidents, and the efforts of the army to prevent them, I am

18 invoking incidents that speak to the planned behaviour of the HVO and that

19 is the context in which the witness has been answering. But I'm not going

20 to insist. I have only one more question related to the arrival of the

21 military police at Kakanj on the 18th of May.

22 Q. I want one thing to be clear to me: You heard on that day that 10

23 or so military policemen had arrived on that day with a very specific

24 task, that is, to bring in soldiers who had failed to report for duty at

25 time?

Page 18843

1 A. I didn't hear about their arrival, I saw a couple of them and I

2 found out that there were 10 or 12 in total.

3 Q. Let us just clarify this. Those military policemen were in the

4 7th Muslim Brigade in Zenica; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You, just like other battalions from the 7th Muslim and other

7 brigades had your own military police platoons?

8 A. They were not real platoons, they were there in order to provide

9 some sort of security. We needed them for our purposes to secure

10 buildings, to bring in people into custody, in minor incidents, et cetera.

11 Q. So all that you have been describing involves the military

12 policemen from Zenica, there were no military policemen of your own

13 involved?

14 A. Everything involves the brigade military police from Zenica but

15 since I was not at the motel while it was all happening, I cannot claim

16 here that not a single of our soldiers had approached and gotten involved

17 in some way, et cetera.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Kubura.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions, thank you.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, Mr. President, I have just

23 one more question and it has to do with duties performed by the battalion.

24 Q. The Presiding Judge asked you about the security sector. Since

25 you said that you had no experts or not enough experts, is it true that in

Page 18844












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18845

1 your battalion, there was no lawyer, no legal person?

2 A. No, we didn't have any.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any of the other counsel?

5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Kulovic, I will now thank

7 you on behalf of the Chamber for having come to testify for

8 General Kubura. You have our best wishes for a safe journey back home.

9 I will now ask the usher to see you out of the courtroom.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, we have a couple of minutes

12 left to discuss the planning for the rest of the week. I believe we have

13 about a dozen witnesses of which three at least under Rule 92 bis and

14 around seven viva voce witnesses. Is my reckoning correct?

15 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] You are correct, Mr. President.

16 But before that, we have these documents that have been shown to the

17 witness and we wish to tender them as Defence Exhibits.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, there are two documents

19 indeed.

20 So Prosecution, there are two documents, one is dated 5th

21 September, 1992, and the other is another date in September, 1992. Any

22 objections?

23 MR. WAESPI: No objection.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please give us the number.

Page 18846

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first is dated 5 September

2 1992, it will be DK [Previous interpretation continues] [In English] 57/E.

3 As to the second document, it's dated the 5th of September, 1992 is

4 entitled "Order on appointment" and receives the reference number DK58

5 with an English translation DK58/E.

6 Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I give the floor to

8 the Defence.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

10 have no further witnesses for this session until the end of the week, that

11 is by the end of the week, we will give you our work plan for the next

12 week and the list of witnesses. We have discussed witness statements

13 under 92 bis with our colleagues and we had agreed to hold a meeting on

14 Monday morning and we will keep the Trial Chamber informed accordingly.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Are we at least sure

16 that on Monday afternoon, we will have a witness?

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We will confirm that no later

18 than the day after tomorrow but probably tomorrow, the entire plan for the

19 whole week.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes, registrar,

21 please could you look again at the numbers that you gave the document the

22 5th September, is it really DK57? And the other document ...

23 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

24 repeat, the numbers were given ... [In English] The first document is

25 admitted into evidence, it's dated the 1st of December, 1992 is admitted

Page 18847

1 under DK57 with an English translation, DK 57/E. The second document is

2 dated the 5th of September, 1992, is entitled order on appointment and is

3 admitted into evidence under the reference DK58 with an English

4 translation DK58/E. I hope that's -- this clarifies. [Interpretation] I

5 hope that clarifies everything, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are also waiting

7 to receive Defence counsel's written submissions on the Prosecution motion

8 to reopen its case in order to tender documents into evidence. If I have

9 understood the Defence correctly, they need 15 days to provide these

10 written submissions.

11 Could Mr. Bourgon when Defence counsel will be filing these

12 submissions.

13 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, in accordance with the

14 meeting, 65 ter meeting held last week, I think that we will require 14

15 days before we can file these submissions. I think that we will be able

16 to file these written submissions by the 6th of May at the latest.

17 Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then, Mr. Dixon.

19 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. The 6th of May is Friday and

20 that would be 14 days. So for Mr. Kubura, we will certainly file the

21 response by Friday as well.

22 Thank you, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any other issues that

24 either the parties would like to raise.

25 Mr. Bourgon.

Page 18848












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18849












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18850

1 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Last

2 week, General Hadzihasanovic's Defence filed a certain number of

3 translations received from CLSS. There were 70 documents, Mr. President,

4 and we would like definite exhibit numbers for 22 of them, whereas as far

5 as the others are concerned, they concern our request to have documents

6 admitted into evidence. We asked for the registry to provide us with

7 confirmation with regard to the 37 outstanding documents. They should be

8 ready by the -- by Friday of this week at the latest. As soon as we

9 receive these 37 documents, we will serve copies on the Prosecution

10 immediately. And we will then file our final written submissions.

11 As the Chamber demanded at the hearing on the 22nd of April.

12 Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis are there any other

14 issues you would like to address.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Not at this time, Mr. President, thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And Mr. Kubura's Defence

17 counsel, any issues to raise? Very well.

18 I invite you to return for the hearing that should start next

19 Monday at 2.15 p.m. And we hope that we will have a witness for Monday.

20 Thank you.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.36 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of May,

23 2005, at 2.15 p.m.