Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Wednesday, 2 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.34 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

12 accordance with the paper Ms. Usher is showing to you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Re, are you ready to proceed?

19 MR. RE: I certainly am. Thank you, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

21 Examined by Mr. Re:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness B. I'm going to show you a piece of

23 paper with your name, date of birth, place of birth recorded on it. Could

24 you please just look at this piece of paper and tell me whether those

25 details are correct.

Page 2

1 A. They are.

2 MR. RE: May that be tendered into evidence under seal.

3 JUDGE LIU: Any objections? I see none. So it is admitted into

4 the evidence. And the court deputy will pronounce a number of this

5 document.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P91, under seal,

7 Your Honours.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 MR. RE: I note from yesterday Your Honours' concerns about the

10 speed of examination-in-chief and leading witnesses through their

11 evidence. Could the Defence counsel perhaps indicate to Your Honours the

12 areas of contention which they would not -- in which they would object to

13 the leading of evidence.

14 JUDGE LIU: I'm afraid not at this stage, because we already gave

15 some instructions yesterday to the Defence. Now you are going to ask the

16 Defence to show their case before the cross-examination. I'm afraid that

17 is not a practice. But anyway, you may proceed.

18 MR. RE: I want to lead on things which I don't think are in

19 contention to speed things up.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please do so.

21 MR. RE: I will certainly do that, Your Honour. And I assume the

22 Defence will object. But the trouble is they may object after I've given

23 a leading -- put a leading question.

24 Q. Witness B, I'm going to ask you some questions about yourself.

25 MR. RE: And if we could perhaps move into private session for a

Page 3

1 few moments for that particular purpose.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Mr. Re.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. In 1993, were your parents members of any military?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did they own any weapons?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were there any weapons in their house?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did they wear a military uniform?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The village of Grabovica, was it a Croat village?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many families were living there in 1993?

20 A. There were 34.

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether he heard

22 the answer correctly.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Could you repeat your answer, please. And while that's being

25 done, can the usher please show P3.

Page 5

1 I'm sorry, Witness B. The interpreter didn't catch your answer

2 to the question how many families were living there in 1993. It's

3 recorded as they think you said 34. Was that what you said?

4 A. 40. I said 40.

5 Q. Okay. Just look at the photograph on the screen. And can you

6 identify that as the village of Grabovica?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I take it that's an accurate depiction of how it looked in 1993?

9 A. Of the houses, yes. But the sawmill wasn't there.

10 Q. In early 1993, was the village under Croat control?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was -- and were there HVO military police based in Grabovica?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were they guarding the village?

15 A. They were there, but as to whether they were guarding it, I'm not

16 sure.

17 Q. About how many of them were there there before May 1993?

18 A. 30.

19 Q. Where were the HVO military police based?

20 A. On the left bank in huts that were on the left bank.

21 Q. And in 1993 - don't tell us where you were working - were you

22 working in Grabovica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was there an ABiH attack on Grabovica in May 1993 after which the

25 ABiH took control of the village from the HVO?

Page 6

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you a member of the HVO or did you participate in the

3 defence of the village?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you -- as a result of the attack, did you run into the

6 hills, away from Grabovica, and were later arrested by ABiH personnel and

7 questioned?

8 A. Yes, I ran away, and later ABiH members questioned me.

9 Q. Were you then released and went back to your job?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did the Bosnian or ABiH authorities permit you to continue

12 working in your existing job?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. RE: Your Honours, I apologise for this. I should have led

15 this evidence earlier.

16 Could we go back into private session for just one moment?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

14 MR. RE:

15 Q. And after the takeover in May 1993 by the ABiH, how many people

16 approximately remained in -- in Grabovica?

17 A. Quite a few of them remained. Quite a few of them.

18 Q. Doing your best, about how many people? Ten? Twenty? Thirty?

19 Forty? 100, 200, 300, whatever?

20 A. About 40.

21 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber about the age range and

22 the gender of those who remained.

23 A. The elderly people were between 60 and 70 years old, and there

24 was a young girl who was between 3 and 4 years old.

25 Q. How many men of military age remained in the village after May

Page 8

1 1993?

2 A. Three or four. Three.

3 Q. Were there any Croatian, Croat, or HVO military personnel in

4 Grabovica between May 1993 and the 7th of September, 1993?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What happened to the weaponry in the possession of the HVO in May

7 1993 after the ABiH took over the village in May 1993?

8 A. They took these weapons. They captured them.

9 Q. By "they," do you mean the ABiH?

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. I'm now going to ask you about refugees in the village. After

12 the ABiH takeover, were there Muslim refugees in the village of Grabovica?

13 A. They started arriving in August. And from the 10th of May up

14 until August, there were no refugees.

15 Q. Where were they coming from and about how many approximately

16 arrived to stay in the village?

17 A. They were coming from Stolac, Capljina, and quite a few of them

18 stayed on in the village.

19 Q. Approximately how many do you remember seeing there or how many

20 do you know arrived to live in -- or to stay in the village?

21 A. There were quite a few of them, but I couldn't provide you with a

22 precise number. All I can say is that there were a lot of them.

23 Q. When you say you can't provide a precise number, is it in the

24 tens or dozens or hundreds? They're the sort of figures I'm interested

25 in.

Page 9

1 A. There were 100 or 150 of them.

2 Q. Were they of mixed age and gender?

3 A. They were, yes.

4 Q. As far as you know, were any of them armed or in uniform?

5 A. No.

6 Q. I want to move to September 1993. You've told the Trial Chamber

7 that there were ABiH soldiers controlling the village. What happened in

8 the first week of September 1993 in relation to ABiH soldiers?

9 A. In the first week of September, when they arrived, then the

10 maltreating started and civilians were killed. This was on the 7th, 8th,

11 and 9th. On the 7th, it was calm. And then between the 8th and 9th --

12 Q. Witness B, I'll come to that in a moment. At the moment I only

13 want to ask you about what happened before the 7th of September, in that

14 first week of -- the first week of September. You said a moment ago, "In

15 the first week of September, when they arrived, then the maltreating

16 started." I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about the arrival of

17 soldiers in Grabovica in the first week of September.

18 A. In the first week of September, ABiH commanders arrived. They

19 visited the houses, and they tried to see where they could find

20 accommodation when they arrived, and it was said that nothing would happen

21 to anyone on that occasion.

22 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about the arrival of ABiH

23 commanders and soldiers into Grabovica. I want you to tell the Trial

24 Chamber what you saw. Firstly, how did the soldiers get to Grabovica? Or

25 what did they arrive in?

Page 10

1 A. They arrived in small buses, and there were ABiH cars that were

2 used too. It said on the cars that they belonged to the Army of the

3 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. Do you -- to the best of your recollection, how many buses came

5 to Grabovica with ABiH soldiers in them?

6 A. On the 7th, there were three. On the 8th, there were three. And

7 on the 9th, I don't know. I don't know what happened subsequently. But

8 there were about three.

9 Q. Approximately how many soldiers appeared to arrive in those

10 buses?

11 A. About 50 or 60.

12 Q. When they arrived -- I'm going to show you photo P7, please.

13 When they arrived, where did the buses stop?

14 A. They stopped in front of Marinko's house and Ante Maric's house.

15 Q. Marinko. What is Marinko's full name?

16 A. Marinko Maric and Ante Maric.

17 Q. Can you see on Exhibit P7, the photo in front of you, the place

18 where the buses stopped?

19 A. Here, between these two poles here.

20 Q. Between the two poles. I'll get you to draw on this photograph

21 in a moment.

22 MR. RE: Could perhaps the usher assist the witness with a pen.

23 Q. Now, firstly, is this a photograph of Grabovica?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. All right. Can you draw an arrow pointing down with the arrow at

Page 11

1 the bottom showing where the buses stopped.

2 MR. RE: Is it working? I can't see any movement on my screen.

3 Can anyone else in the courtroom see movement on their screens?

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. All right. You've put a mark at the -- the bottom of the --

6 bottom centre of the page. Can you please put a -- a large arrow going

7 down parallel to the pole, just pointing to the position where the bus

8 was, just to make it a little more clear.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Okay. Now, there are three houses shown in that photograph. The

11 one on the right is without a roof. Can you identify or do you know whose

12 houses they are or were?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber the name -- the owners of

15 those three houses.

16 A. The house without the roof was Nikola Kolobaric's house.

17 Q. Can you just please put a "1" next to that.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. Can you make it a little bit larger.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Okay. The next house across the road on the bottom left, whose

22 house was that?

23 A. Ante Maric's house.

24 Q. And the house above that?

25 A. Marinko Maric's house.

Page 12

1 Q. I apologise. Can you please put a "3" next to that.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And you've just marked a "4" on a house above the 2 and 3. Whose

4 house is that?

5 A. Marinko Maric's house -- or rather, Martin Maric's. Martin

6 Maric.

7 Q. Martin Maric. Okay. Now, just above that, directly above it,

8 there's what appears to be a building -- okay. One step ahead of me.

9 Whose house is number 5?

10 A. Ilka and Ruza Maric's house.

11 Q. And to the right of that, there's a building that appears to be

12 behind some trees. What is that or whose house is that?

13 A. That's a cowshed.

14 Q. Can you please put a "6" next to the arrow at the bottom to

15 indicate where the bus arrived.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

20 MR. METTRAUX: No objection, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P92.

23 JUDGE LIU: And I believe that yesterday we also admitted some

24 documents into the evidence concerning with the witness's markers on those

25 photos yesterday. The number might not be correct. Maybe the court

Page 13

1 deputy could correct those numbers at this moment.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The two documents that we

3 marked by the witness yesterday were originally marked as IC002 and IC003.

4 Pursuant to the revision, those exhibit wills now be Prosecution Exhibit

5 P89 and P90 respectively.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 You may proceed, Mr. Re.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Now, Witness B, do you know or -- or were you told why the bus

10 stopped in that particular spot which you've marked as -- that you've

11 marked as number 6 on Exhibit P92? Why did the bus stop there?

12 A. The bus stopped there so that the ABiH could disembark and rest

13 in the houses and prepare for further attacks in the direction of Mostar.

14 Q. Which houses are you referring to when you say "prepare to rest

15 in the houses"?

16 A. The houses I have marked here.

17 Q. How do you know that they were going to rest in those particular

18 houses?

19 A. Because the representatives of the ABiH had secured them

20 previously.

21 Q. Was that something you saw or something you were told?

22 A. The owners of these houses told me that.

23 Q. What did they say to you about the ABiH securing your -- securing

24 their houses or wishing to use those houses for accommodation?

25 A. That they were going to be accommodated there and rest there, and

Page 14

1 they were assured that nobody would mistreat them or do anything to them.

2 Q. Now, you mentioned some owners. Was Marinko Maric one of those

3 people who told you that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When he told you that, did he indicate whether he willingly or

6 unwillingly allowed the ABiH to use his house for accommodation?

7 A. Willingly, because he thought he would be safe. He thought he

8 would be safe if he did that.

9 Q. And did he tell you who from the ABiH he had these discussions

10 with?

11 A. Vehbija Karic, Sefer Halilovic, and I don't know who else.

12 Q. When did he tell you this?

13 A. In late August. It was either in August or early September. I

14 can't be sure.

15 Q. What contact did you have, Witness B, with the ABiH soldiers when

16 they -- after they disembarked from the buses, I think you said on the 7th

17 of September, 1993? Firstly on that day and then I'll take you to other

18 days.

19 A. The 7th was a good day. There were no problems.

20 Q. Did you speak to the soldiers?

21 A. Just general things. Nothing special.

22 Q. Were you made aware of who the soldiers were or where they were

23 from?

24 A. They said they were from Sarajevo.

25 Q. Was there anything about their accents that either confirmed that

Page 15

1 to you or suggested otherwise?

2 A. Their accents confirmed it.

3 Q. Were they in uniform and were they armed?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That's yes to both?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What sort of uniforms were they wearing?

8 A. Camouflage.

9 Q. What about their insignia? What sort of insignia did the

10 soldiers have?

11 A. Some had insignia saying "Army BH," and others didn't have any

12 insignia.

13 Q. Do you remember what they were armed with?

14 A. Automatic rifles.

15 Q. Did they tell you, either on that day or on any of the subsequent

16 days, which units they were from?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I asked you a few moments back about the arrival of the buses and

19 people's houses, that you said -- which was where they were going to be

20 accommodated. Did you see the soldiers go into any private homes on the

21 7th -- on the first day they came there, which you said was the 7th of

22 September?

23 A. No, only those houses in which they were accommodated. That's

24 where they were.

25 Q. And for the record, those were the ones that you identified in

Page 16

1 Exhibit P92 a few moments ago.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said you saw them go into the houses. Doing your best, was

4 it in the morning, afternoon, or evening, or night?

5 A. It was in the morning, at about 8.00.

6 Q. And just briefly, how were they going in? Was it in groups or

7 individually or in what manner?

8 A. I wasn't near enough to see that, but I think they went in one by

9 one.

10 Q. You told the Trial Chamber a little earlier that September the

11 7th, the first day of the arrival of these soldiers, was a good day. I

12 want you to tell the Trial Chamber about the next day, starting in the

13 morning. What happened in the morning of the second day, which was the

14 8th?

15 A. On the 8th of September, as soon as the second group arrived,

16 shooting started, shooting, noise. They were going to houses, maltreating

17 people, taking away livestock, and so on.

18 Q. Just going back, you said "as soon as the second group arrived."

19 When did the second group arrive? How did they arrive? And where did

20 they arrive to or where did they -- where did -- what was their point of

21 disembarkation in the village?

22 A. It was the same point and about the same time, 8.00 or 8.30

23 approximately, and it was at the same location.

24 Q. Was it also in buses and cars, or was it in some other way?

25 A. Yes, yes. Just like the first group.

Page 17

1 Q. Did you see them arrive yourself, or was it something you were

2 told about?

3 A. No, no. From afar, I could see but we couldn't move freely, so

4 you couldn't see who or what.

5 Q. I just -- I just want to clarify that. Are you telling the Trial

6 Chamber -- I withdraw that.

7 How did you become aware that this second group of soldiers had

8 arrived in the same point in the village as the soldiers the day before?

9 A. I saw them from my house. It was not a long way away from there.

10 Q. You said shooting started. At approximately what time did the

11 shooting start? Can you describe to the Trial Chamber the shooting.

12 Like, where it was from, how long it lasted, and so on.

13 A. As soon as they started leaving the buses.

14 Q. How long did the shooting go on for?

15 A. It was intermittent. They would shoot and then stop and then

16 start again.

17 Q. Until when?

18 A. The whole day. And you could hear them at night as well.

19 Q. You were at home that day?

20 A. On the 8th, yes.

21 Q. Did any soldiers come to your house on that day?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many soldiers came?

24 A. Three.

25 Q. When was that?

Page 18

1 A. It was just before evening.

2 Q. Were they ABiH soldiers?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you speak to them?

5 A. Yes, I did. They asked if we had anything to drink. That's all.

6 And later on they left.

7 Q. Did these soldiers have Sarajevo accents or different accents?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Yes, that's Sarajevo accents?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did anything else happen on that day - that's the 8th of

12 September - that you saw yourself?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'll move now to the 9th of September, day three, the third day,

15 two days after the soldiers arrived in the bus. Were you at your home on

16 the night of the 8th and 9th of September?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What happened in -- on the morning of the 9th of September?

19 A. In the morning of the 9th, at about 9.00 two soldiers arrived and

20 they searched the house, took what they needed. They asked for money and

21 gold jewellery. We didn't have any. And then they left.

22 Q. Were your parents at home then?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were these ABiH soldiers?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19

1 Q. Did they have Sarajevo accents?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Later in the day, did some more soldiers come to your house?

4 A. Yes, three soldiers arrived later.

5 Q. Were these soldiers also ABiH soldiers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were they wearing the same or similar uniforms to the soldiers --

8 the two soldiers who had come earlier to the house at about 9.00?

9 A. They were in uniforms.

10 Q. And what did these soldiers do when they came to your house?

11 A. They sat and talked about what to do until the third group

12 arrived.

13 Q. What did you hear them say, or what was the subject of their

14 conversation?

15 A. They didn't talk to me, but they spoke to a refugee who was

16 visiting us in front of the house.

17 Q. What was the refugee's name?

18 A. Munevera Repesa. That's how she introduced herself, and her

19 daughter.

20 Q. When you said, "They didn't talk to me," could you hear what they

21 were saying?

22 A. They said they would kill us all.

23 Q. Were these soldiers armed?

24 A. Yes. But it wasn't they who did that. It was the third group

25 that arrived later who did it.

Page 20

1 Q. What did you do -- I withdraw that.

2 You said you were talking to a -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that.

3 There was a refugee, Munevera Repesa, outside your house. Did

4 you speak to her?

5 A. Later on I showed her the path she would take.

6 Q. Between seeing the soldiers outside your house and hearing them

7 speak to her and you later showing her a path to take, did you go back

8 inside your house?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were your parents, to your knowledge, in the house when you were

11 outside and the soldiers were there talking to Ms. Repesa?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When did you show her a path to take? I want you to tell the

14 Trial Chamber what you did after seeing her talking or listening to her

15 talking to the soldiers in front of your house.

16 A. She was confused, and she told me to show her a path she could

17 take to get down onto the road because she was put up in the huts on the

18 left bank.

19 Q. And what did you do?

20 A. I showed her the way, and then I didn't go back -- or rather, I

21 hid in the hills.

22 Q. When you say you showed her the way, do you mean that you led her

23 away from where your house was?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. What did you hear as you were walking away with the refugee

Page 21

1 woman?

2 A. I heard a shot and I heard my mother scream.

3 Q. About how far had you gone from the house when you heard the shot

4 and your mother scream?

5 A. About 150 metres.

6 Q. Did you look back?

7 A. No. Because they were targeting me as well.

8 Q. You referred a little earlier to a third group of soldiers. Did

9 you see a third group of soldiers near your house?

10 A. I saw them arriving.

11 Q. Just so we get the sequence clear, when did you see a third

12 group? Was it before or after you left with the refugee woman?

13 A. It was as I was leaving.

14 Q. How many soldiers were in this group?

15 A. About ten.

16 Q. Were they armed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were they talking or saying things?

19 A. No. They were saying something among themselves, but I don't

20 know what.

21 Q. You said you saw them arriving. Where did they go?

22 A. Directly to the house.

23 Q. When you say "to the house," do you mean to the yard or to the

24 house itself?

25 A. The house itself.

Page 22

1 Q. Was that when you left with the refugee woman?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Why did you leave with her?

4 A. To show her the way, and I felt that something bad could happen

5 to me because no one was left where my house was, only those who managed

6 to run away or were saved by someone.

7 Q. Do you know whether that group of ten soldiers saw you with the

8 refugee woman?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What -- what gives you the indication they saw you?

11 A. Because they were looking after me. They thought I might come

12 back. I don't know.

13 Q. The transcript says "looking after me." Can you just explain

14 what you mean by "they were looking after me"? Is -- is that correctly

15 recorded?

16 A. They were watching me leave.

17 Q. Did you ever see your parents alive again after that morning?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you asked to identify their bodies in a morgue the following

20 year?

21 A. In June 1994, yes.

22 Q. Was that in Mostar?

23 A. In Mostar, yes. Bijeli Brijeg.

24 Q. What were you told, if anything, about where their bodies had

25 been found?

Page 23

1 A. Below the house. That's what they said.

2 Q. Below the house? Do you mean outside the house?

3 A. Yes, our house. Outside, yes.

4 Q. Were you told how they -- what the indications were of how they'd

5 been killed?

6 A. They were slaughtered. They were all in pieces.

7 Q. When you left your house with the refugee woman and you said you

8 went to the hills, just briefly tell the Trial Chamber where you went to.

9 A. I went down to the road and for about half a kilometre I walked

10 along the road and then I ran into the woods through an opening.

11 Q. Now, you say that was on the 9th of September. What did you do,

12 just very briefly, for the next three days?

13 A. I hid in the woods up there.

14 Q. Were you arrested or captured a few days later?

15 A. No. I surrendered myself.

16 Q. Who did you surrender to?

17 A. I set out toward Dreznica, and then I stopped by Tomic's house

18 and they told me to stay there.

19 Q. All right. Who did you surrender to?

20 A. I surrendered to the soldiers who had been in Dreznica. They

21 came by, and I spoke to them and they told me to stay there.

22 Q. Which unit were they from?

23 A. The BH army.

24 Q. Have you heard of the person called Celo?

25 A. Yes. When I was at Zuka's, when I'd been taken prisoner.

Page 24

1 Q. What about a group called Cedo's Wolves? Have you heard of a

2 group called Cedo's Wolves?

3 A. Yes, I did hear about Cedo's Wolves. They took me from the house

4 of Stojan Tomic to Grabovica to the hydroelectric power plant on the

5 Neretva where their base was.

6 Q. How long did you remain there?

7 A. I remained there about two hours. Two or three hours.

8 Q. Where were you taken then?

9 A. Then they took me to Donja Jablanica, to Zuka's house.

10 Q. And who was Zuka?

11 A. Zuka was the commander of a unit.

12 Q. And what did they do with you at Zuka's house?

13 A. When I arrived in Zuka's house, they locked me up into a dugout

14 where there were ten other people imprisoned.

15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Objection from the Defence. This is the kind of

18 matters we discussed yesterday and which the Prosecution acknowledge as

19 being outside of the frame of this indictment and irrelevant.

20 JUDGE LIU: No. But from this question, I don't know what's the

21 aim of the Prosecution at this moment. It's very difficult for me to

22 judge on that point. Maybe we could let the Prosecution go for a while

23 and see whether it's relevant or not.

24 You may proceed, Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE:

Page 25

1 Q. How long did you remain at -- sorry, I withdraw that question.

2 You referred to the place you went to as Zuka's house. Was that

3 a -- a group of houses in which soldiers were based?

4 A. Yes. There were several houses. These houses belonged to Rogic.

5 He owned them. But we were kept in a dugout. There was no electricity.

6 There was nothing there. And it was humid.

7 Q. How long did you remain in that dugout for?

8 A. Ten days.

9 Q. What day did you get there?

10 A. On the 12th of September, late in the day. The year was 1993.

11 Q. What else was there in this complex apart from the several

12 private houses?

13 A. There was a cafe. There was the command there. There was a

14 cowshed, which is where we were imprisoned later on.

15 Q. Where did you go or how were you fed in those ten days that you

16 were at Zuka's base in Jablanica?

17 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would object again for the same

18 reason.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the Prosecution is -- has just

20 established the whereabouts of this witness after the incident, which, you

21 know, still we fail to see the point of your objection.

22 You may proceed, Mr. Re.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. My question is: How were you fed or where did you go to eat in

25 those ten days you were in the dugout at Zuka's base in Jablanica?

Page 26

1 A. We went to eat in the restaurant called Prenj [phoen]. We went

2 out to the main road to Mostar. It was about 1 kilometre to the

3 restaurant. And that is where we had breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

4 Q. You described -- I withdraw that.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]

6 MR. RE:

7 Q. You described a cafe and you said "the command was there." Did

8 you pass this cafe when you went to the restaurant for your breakfast,

9 lunch, and dinner?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you know it was a command inside the cafe?

12 A. Well, that's what the others who had arrived before me told me.

13 Q. You've described it as Zuka's house or base and a unit, that he

14 commanded a unit. What was the unit called?

15 A. It was called Zuka's army.

16 Q. And was that also -- was that an ABiH unit?

17 A. Under their control.

18 Q. I asked you earlier about a person called Celo. Did you see a

19 person called Celo at Zuka's base when you were there in those ten days?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you see him and who did you see him with?

22 A. Celo, Zuka, Sefer Halilovic, and I don't know who else were in

23 front of the base.

24 Q. Whereabouts did you see them? You said "in front of the base."

25 Can you just tell us where you mean by "in front of the base."

Page 27

1 A. On the cafe terrace.

2 Q. What were they doing?

3 A. They were standing there.

4 Q. Were they talking?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you hear what they were saying?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How did you know who they were?

9 A. Another prisoner who was with me told me who they were.

10 Q. Who was that prisoner?

11 A. Mirko Zelenika.

12 Q. Did he tell you how he knew who these people were?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did he say to you to indicate how he knew who those three

15 people were?

16 A. He had seen them. He had seen them on television. He'd seen

17 them in the newspapers and in the hotel in Jablanica they had meetings

18 there.

19 Q. They had meetings -- do you mean meetings with Mr. Zelenika or

20 meetings amongst themselves.

21 A. Mirko Zelenika was part of the authorities in Jablanica until a

22 certain part of time, until this changed. Then I believe that they would

23 see each other.

24 Q. To be clear on that, are you saying Mr. Zelenika told you he had

25 had meetings with those three people, Celo, Zuka, and Sefer Halilovic, and

Page 28

1 that was how he knew who they were?

2 A. No. No. No. He didn't have meetings.

3 Q. Is your evidence that he told you he had seen these people before

4 and that's how he knew who they were?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you remain in ABiH custody until you were registered by

7 the International Committee of the Red Cross on the 1st of March, 1994 and

8 then were exchanged?

9 A. We were registered on the 16th of November, 1993. From the 12th

10 of September, they had no access to us. They couldn't visit us and they

11 didn't even know where we were.

12 Q. And following your registration on the 16th of November, were you

13 remaining in ABiH custody until you were exchanged for prisoners on the

14 other side on the 1st of March?

15 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, in the museum in Jablanica.

16 Q. Okay. I'm going to show the witness a series of photographs in

17 order P79, 80, 81, 82, 83, and 85. And this is for the purpose of the

18 witness identifying locations or houses, the names of the owners of which

19 are already recorded on the photographs themselves.

20 You understand what I'm going to ask you to do, Witness B? That

21 is, to look at those photographs and to tell me whether the names and

22 numbers are correct.

23 MR. RE: Can we start with P79, please.

24 It may be quicker for us to do this in Sanction. We're not

25 asking the witness to mark on any -- any --

Page 29

1 Q. The first one is P79. Witness B, can you clearly see the

2 markings 10 through to 16? Number 10 says "Sawmill." Number 15 says,

3 "railway station." The next are named Croatian names.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You can see a number of houses, a number of numbers and arrows

6 pointing to them. Can you just tell the Court whether or not each of

7 those markings is correct and the houses -- the numbers correctly identify

8 the houses and the owners.

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. If we'd move to the next one, please, which is Exhibit P80.

11 MR. RE: Can that be shown in Sanction, please.

12 Q. Number 17 and 18, Josip Brekalo and the TV tower. Is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 MR. RE: Please, can the next one be broadcast in Sanction, which

16 is Exhibit P81, which will be numbers 20 through 26.

17 Q. Can you see that, Witness B, numbers -- number 20 is the

18 hydroelectric administration building. The remaining six bear Croatian

19 names. Are those markings correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. RE: Please turn now to Exhibit P82. Again, numbers 23

22 through 31, number 28a is Stjepan Mandic's stable, to translate it for

23 you. Is that likewise correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. RE: Please turn now to P83.

Page 30


2 MR. RE: Numbers 30 through to 32a, the last one Ivan Saric's

3 stable.

4 Q. Are those markings correct? Do they correctly identify the

5 location of those houses or objects?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. RE: Turn now to Exhibit P85, please.

8 Q. Number 33, marked as Ilka and Stoja Miletic.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Meaning the markings are correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. RE: Can the photograph in ERN 04020958 please be shown.

14 Q. Can you identify that as an overhead shot of Jablanica?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. RE: May that be tendered into evidence, please.

17 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

18 THE WITNESS: Donja Jablanica.

19 MR. METTRAUX: No objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

21 THE REGISTRAR: That been Prosecution Exhibit P93.

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Now, on this Exhibit P93, I wish you to take your pen. Now,

24 firstly you'll see two markings. One is a "1" on the right with two

25 arrows. What is that -- what are the arrows pointing to?

Page 31

1 A. They are pointing to the location of Zuka's base. The first

2 arrow is pointing to the location of the cafe. And these are the houses

3 that the soldiers were in. And we were held in the area in the woods

4 close to the cafe.

5 Q. I'll get you to mark on that in a moment.

6 MR. RE: First are we broadcasting in Sanction or with the

7 e-court?


9 THE REGISTRAR: It's for the e-court at the moment. It's for the

10 e-court on at moment.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. There's an arrow on the left which is a "2." What is that --

13 what is that pointing in the direction of?

14 A. It's pointing in the direction of Mostar.

15 Q. Now, I want you to get the marker pen, if that's the correct

16 technical description, and I want you to circle the two houses which

17 number 1 is pointing to.

18 A. [Marks]

19 Q. You've drawn a squiggly line around the bottom of those houses.

20 What does that indicate?

21 A. This is Rogic's house. Privately owned houses where Zuka's

22 troops were located. And the circle was made around the cafe. That's

23 where the command was.

24 Q. I'm sorry, you said the circle is around the cafe. I want you to

25 indicate clearly what the cafe -- which one the cafe is. Could you draw

Page 32

1 a -- maybe an "X" to indicate where the cafe is.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. RE: Could that section possibly be enlarged on the screen?

4 It may assist the witness in drawing his "X" on where the cafe is.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. All right. Let's start again, Witness B. Let's start again.

7 It's -- it's been refreshed or -- or cleaned. We can see the houses much

8 more clearly now.

9 I want you to draw an "X" in the spot where you were -- you and

10 the other prisoners were held.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Okay. You've drawn a circle. Is that to indicate where you were

13 held, in that wooded area?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Now, perhaps we could use numbers. Can you put a number

16 "1" where the cafe was.

17 Thank you. It's been pointed out to me there's already a "1"

18 there. Can you put an "A," another one, an "A" where the cafe was.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. And "B," "C," and "D," or "E," "F" for the houses or buildings

21 that -- the remainder of the houses or buildings comprising Zuka's base.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Where are were you -- oh, sorry, where did you see Sefer

24 Halilovic, Celo, and Zuka talking outside the cafe? Can you put a --

25 perhaps an "X"."

Page 33

1 A. In front?

2 Q. An "X" on the spot.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. RE: May that be tendered into evidence.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

7 MR. METTRAUX: No objection, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That been Prosecution Exhibit P94.

10 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown firstly Exhibit P9,

11 followed by P76, then P77.

12 Q. Is that the Grabovica hydroelectricity plant?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is that where Cedo's Wolves were that you referred to earlier?

15 A. Yes. How should I put it?

16 MR. RE: [Previous translation continues] ... please.

17 Q. Those three houses, were they part of Zuka's base?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is the cafe shown there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And finally, on this particular issue, P77.

22 Are those two houses -- were those two houses part of Zuka's base

23 in Donja Jablanica?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P86.

Page 34

1 Q. Do you recognize this as an overhead -- or an aerial photograph

2 of Grabovica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I want you to draw with the marker pen on this exhibit. I want

5 you to, first of all, circle -- first of all, can you see your parents'

6 house there?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 MR. RE: Should we be in private session for this particular

9 exhibit?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 35

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 MR. RE:

Page 36

1 Q. The same exercise. And I'm only doing this to show a different

2 angle where things happened.

3 You told the Court earlier about some refugees being housed in

4 Grabovica. Can you see the place where they were housed on this map?

5 A. On the left. Some of them were in the huts and others in the

6 houses, but you can't see the houses. There were the huts here.

7 MR. RE: Is the pen not working?

8 Q. Can you just mark with a "1" where the refugees were housed, a

9 "1".

10 A. These huts were constructed later, the two huts that you can see.

11 It's more or less like this.

12 Q. You've drawn a "1" and a "2". Are you indicating that those were

13 refugee huts?

14 A. No. I've made a mistake. You can't see them.

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... then.

16 A. You can see part of them here at the point marked with a "1."

17 Q. Okay. Now, can you mark with a "2" the place where the ABiH

18 buses arrived, which you said was near Marinko Maric's house.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Can you mark Marinko Maric's house with a "3."

21 A. Marinko and Ante.

22 Q. Yes. The railway -- the railway with a "4."

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. The house of Andrija Dreznjak with a "5."

25 A. [Marks]

Page 37

1 Q. And the house of Zivko Dreznjak with a "6."

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And the house of Marko Ramljak [phoen] with a "7."

4 A. [Marks]

5 MR. RE: Thank you. May that also be tendered into evidence,

6 please.

7 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

8 MR. METTRAUX: No objection, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 It's admitted into evidence.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P96.

12 MR. RE: [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. RE: What time are Your Honours intending to go to on --

15 JUDGE LIU: What time are you going to wind up your direct

16 examination?

17 MR. RE: It will take me probably about ten -- I think ten more

18 minutes.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I hope you could finish your direct examination

21 as soon as possible. We've spent a lot of time marking those photos and

22 we don't see there are any points at this stage. Maybe later on they

23 could be used.

24 MR. RE: Can I indicate to the Trial Chamber, this is the first

25 witness who - and I'm setting the scene for the rest of the trial, in

Page 38

1 terms of the identification of all the places and houses in the village -

2 JUDGE LIU: That's just what I thought. You may proceed.

3 MR. RE: May it please Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness B, I wish to show you a list, which is Prosecution

5 Exhibit -- sorry, ERN 03428984. It's a list of names which -- which

6 corresponds to the names of the people listed in paragraph 21 on the

7 indictment. It's on two pages.

8 MR. RE: Perhaps if the witness could be shown a one-page paper

9 list, which may facilitate his reading of it.

10 Can this please be broadcast on Sanction.

11 Q. The first name on -- first of all, Mr. Witness B, have a look at

12 that list. I've shown you this list before. Do you know -- do you

13 recognize all the names of the people on this list and did you know all of

14 these people personally?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'm going to ask you about each of the people on the list.

17 Firstly, Pero Culjak. Where did Pero Culjak live in 1993?

18 A. In 1993, he lived at Copi and afterwards with his wife Matija he

19 came to Grabovica to stay with his son-in-law Josip Brekalo and his

20 daughter, Luca Brekalo.

21 Q. Were they living in -- that is, he and his wife, Matija, who's

22 listed number 2 on that list, were they living in Grabovica or staying in

23 Grabovica at the beginning of September 1993?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When was the last time you saw these two people?

Page 39

1 A. In September. On the 5th or 6th of September.

2 Q. Moving to the next two, numbers 3 and 4, Cvitan Lovric and Jela

3 Lovric.

4 A. Cvitan and Jela Lovric lived at Copi, not as it says here

5 "Grabovica" in the case of Jela. They were at Copi. Number 4 should also

6 say Copi.

7 Q. Do you know whether they were living or staying in Grabovica in

8 September 1993?

9 A. No. They were at Copi.

10 Q. When was the last time you saw them?

11 A. The last time, in May 1993, when we had the mass.

12 Q. Moving to the next two, Mara Mandic and Ivan Mandic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who were these people?

15 A. They were neighbours, not relatives.

16 Q. Did they live in Grabovica? And if so, were they living there in

17 September 1993?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When was the last time you saw these --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When was the last time you saw firstly Mara Mandic and then Ivan

22 Mandic?

23 A. Mara Mandic in late August and Ivan Mandic in early September.

24 Q. The next one on the list is Ilka Miletic.

25 A. In late August.

Page 40

1 Q. When you said "August and September for the last answer and this

2 one, were you referring to 1993?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re, I think this practice will take a long

5 time. Maybe you could just ask some general questions to this witness,

6 because this witness will not testify whether those people are killed or

7 not on that day but only to prove that there are such kind of people

8 there.

9 MR. RE: Well, it's a circumstantial -- for some of the deaths

10 the Prosecution has to prove, we have to do so circumstantially by showing

11 that the people were in the village or living there at the time. In the

12 absence of a concession from the Defence, they were in fact living there.

13 Unless we have a witness testify that they were, there'll be no evidence

14 before the Trial Chamber --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. RE: -- that these people even existed. That's my difficulty.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So just ask general questions: Do you know all

18 those people listed there in this list, whether they lived there, you

19 know, before, you know, September 1993 or something. You don't have to go

20 one by one.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Witness B, you've heard His Honour Judge Liu. You told us

23 earlier you knew each of these people personally. Were they all living in

24 the Grabovica --

25 A. Yes.

Page 41

1 Q. -- village or close locality in September 1993?

2 A. I will only read out the ones where this is incorrect and tell

3 you where they were.

4 Q. Please. And, Mr. Witness B, be aware that the top of the column

5 is where -- the places listed is the place of birth, not the place of

6 residence.

7 A. Pero Culjak, Grabovica; Matija Culjak, Grabovica; Cvitan Lovric,

8 Copi; Jela Lovric, Copi.

9 Q. Sorry. You said you were only going to read out the ones which

10 were incorrect and tell you where they are. What do you mean by

11 "incorrect"?

12 A. Jela Lovric, the location of the crime was in Copi, not in

13 Grabovica.

14 Q. All right. I've been asked to -- instructed to ask you general

15 questions about where the people lived and when you last saw them. Have

16 you ever seen any of these people since the day you left the village, the

17 9th of September, 1993?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And going back to my earlier question: Apart from Jela Lovric,

20 were all the other people -- and Cvitan Lovric, were all the other people

21 living in Grabovica as of September 1993?

22 A. Jozo Istuk, he wasn't.

23 Q. Where was he living?

24 A. Near Copi, near Dreznica. It was in Dreznica.

25 Q. When did you last see him, Witness B?

Page 42

1 A. I do not recall.

2 Q. Numbers 15 and 16 on the list, Andrija Dreznjak and Mara

3 Dreznjak, when did you last see those two people?

4 A. On the 9th of September, 1993.

5 Q. Where were they when you last saw them?

6 A. In front of their house.

7 Q. You said there were soldiers in the village. Were there any

8 soldiers in their vicinity when you last saw them?

9 A. In front of their house, and their daughter, Dragica Dreznjak as

10 well.

11 Q. What were the soldiers doing?

12 A. They were talking, but I don't know what about.

13 Q. And where were Andrija and Matija -- I'm sorry, Mara Dreznjak and

14 their daughter, Dragica, when the soldiers were talking? Were the

15 soldiers talking to them or were the soldiers talking amongst themselves?

16 A. They were in front of their house. But whether they were talking

17 to them, probably they were.

18 Q. Were these soldiers armed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you hear what happened to these people?

21 A. When there was an exchange of bodies, only Dragica Dreznjak was

22 identified. As for Mara and Andrija Dreznjak, they are missing.

23 Q. Were you told where Dragica's body was found?

24 A. No.

25 Q. For the clarity of the record, were these soldiers you saw them

Page 43

1 with, were they ABiH soldiers?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. RE: That completes my examination-in-chief, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 MR. RE: Oh, I'm sorry, the tender of that particular document.

6 Would that assist the Trial Chamber?

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, you could do that later on, after the

8 cross-examination. Maybe during the cross-examination the Defence will

9 raise some questions concerning with this list, so which will effect the

10 credibility of this list. I'm not sure. I cannot predict the outcome.

11 So there's still an opportunity at a later stage.

12 MR. RE: Can I indicate that the list -- if we tender it, it's

13 only as the basis of an aide-memoire to the Trial Chamber it's not on the

14 basis of proof of death. It's only to assist the Trial Chamber by putting

15 it in evidence and having other witnesses identify people from that list

16 as you would from -- perhaps from paragraph 21 of the indictment. That's

17 the only purpose we would put that into --

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, in the Rules, there's no differentiations about

19 the purpose of the evidence, you know. I could not understand what is the

20 aide-memoire and what is the hard evidence in this case. But we'll

21 discuss it at a later stage.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could give it an ID number on it.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

25 identification, 97.

Page 44

1 JUDGE LIU: Now it's time to have a break, because I have been

2 advised that the tapes is running out. And we'll resume at ten minutes to

3 5.00, beginning with the cross-examination by the Defence team.

4 --- Recess taken at 4.27 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 4.56 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any cross-examination? Mr. Mettraux.

7 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Would you please indicate how long you're going to

9 take to cross-examine this witness.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Well, it is quite difficult to say at this stage,

11 Your Honour, but I would think that we might have to go over into tomorrow

12 morning, I'm afraid.

13 JUDGE LIU: To tomorrow morning? So there's no possibility for

14 us to take the next witness today?

15 MR. METTRAUX: It seems very remote, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I hope we could finish this witness today. And

17 you may proceed.

18 MR. METTRAUX: I will try my best. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Mettraux:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. My name is Guenael Mettraux and I

21 appear as co-counsel for Mr. Halilovic.

22 I would like to ask you if you may assist the Trial Chamber and

23 myself in finding our way in the area where you're from, and I would like

24 this map to be placed on the ELMO for that purpose. Thank you.

25 Thank you. You've indicated, sir, that at the relevant time you

Page 45

1 lived in the village of Gornja Grabovica. Could you indicate with the

2 pointer where that would be on the map.

3 A. [Indicates]. Grabovica, not Gornja Grabovica.

4 Q. Could you they will place the pointer -- yes, thank you. So,

5 sir, could you please tell us what the "G" before Grabovica stands for.

6 A. I don't know. We always referred to the village as Grabovica. I

7 don't know about Gornja Grabovica. There is Donja Grabovica, Grabovica,

8 and Diva Grabovica.

9 Q. We then will refer to Gornja Grabovica as Grabovica. Am I

10 correct in understanding that Grabovica was part of a group of villages

11 and hamlets that would be referred to as Dreznica?

12 A. Yes, it belonged to the Dreznica commune.

13 Q. And if you go further south from Grabovica, where the pointer was

14 previously, you would reach a village or a hamlet called Kremenac; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Kremenac is a tiny hamlet, sir. There's only a few houses in

18 that village.

19 A. Above Grabovica, yes. There was only one family living there.

20 Q. And it would be about 1 kilometre away from Grabovica, wouldn't

21 it?

22 A. A kilometre or a kilometre and a half.

23 Q. Thank you. If you were to go from Grabovica to Kremenac, there

24 was no road there, was there. There was only a narrow path, a stony or a

25 muddy path; is that correct?

Page 46

1 A. Yes, it was a path made of earth and stones.

2 Q. And there was no sign post in Grabovica indicating the village of

3 Kremenac.

4 A. No.

5 Q. So if you were to leave Grabovica, you would have to know about

6 this village, if you wanted to get there, I suppose.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If you continue further down or south along the Neretva River

9 towards Mostar, you would reach another village which you have already

10 mentioned, which is Donja Grabovica; is it correct?

11 A. But it's on the left side.

12 Q. That's correct. That's on the left side if you follow the M15

13 towards Mostar. M17, I'm sorry.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it would be approximately 4 to 5 kilometres away from

16 Grabovica.

17 A. Yes. 4 kilometres or maybe 3 and a half.

18 Q. Very well, then. As you indicated, Donja Grabovica would be on

19 the left bank of the Neretva, and on the other side of the Neretva river

20 at the same level you have another village called Copi.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It is also a very little village, with only a few houses.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. It would also be more or less 4 kilometres or so away from

25 Grabovica, where you lived.

Page 47

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There was no roads leading directly from Grabovica, where you

3 lived, to Copi.

4 A. There was up to a place close to Copi, because there was a lake

5 preventing further passage. But if you got onto the M17 main road to

6 Dreznica, across from the bridge you could get straight to Copi. But from

7 the direction of Grabovica, you couldn't reach it by car.

8 Q. That's correct. And you could reach it though on foot had you

9 wanted to, by staying on the same side of the Neretva River.

10 A. Why would you go on foot if you can go by car?

11 Q. Well, if you don't have a car, for instance. Let's leave that

12 for -- for a minute.

13 It would take -- would I be correct in saying that it would take

14 about two hours to walk from Grabovica to Copi if someone had the strange

15 idea of walking there? Would that be correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, again, there was no sign post in Grabovica indicating

18 "Copi"?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. If you go further south on the map - if I can ask the

21 technical people - yes. Thank you very much. You reach another tiny

22 hamlet called - and I apologise for the pronunciation - Sjencine, also on

23 the left side of the Neretva River.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. Then, sir, I would like to take you north of Grabovica for a

Page 48

1 minute to a place called Diva Grabovica. Can you put the pointer, please,

2 on the map to indicate where Diva Grabovica is located.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you. So I would be correct in saying that Diva Grabovica

5 is approximately 4 kilometres away -- 4 kilometres north of Grabovica,

6 where you were living? Would I be correct?

7 A. One could say so.

8 Q. And Diva Grabovica was famous or, I should say, was known because

9 it had a famous hunting lodge there; is it correct?

10 A. Yes, a hunting lodge.

11 Q. And that hunting lodge, sir, had been heavily damaged in the

12 course of the fightings between the ABiH and the HVO.

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. From Diva Grabovica, sir, would you be able to see the front

15 line?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. But you know that no one lived there at the time.

18 MR. RE: Objection. The --

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. RE: Very unspecific. The front line when and where? And no

21 one lived there at what time? I mean, the Prosecution is at a loss at

22 the moment to see where this is going, but my learned friend is going to

23 ask questions generally, he should cement them to some sort of time frame.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the situation is very clear,

25 that is, the troops surrounding the -- Sarajevo and -- and the troops in

Page 49

1 Mostar.

2 Maybe you could indicate which, you know, front line do you mean.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Very well.

4 Q. Would you be able to see the Vrdi front line from Diva Grabovica?

5 From the hunting lodge, for instance?

6 A. How could I have seen it, since I had been imprisoned?

7 Q. Would you know, sir, whether anyone lived in Grabovica, Diva

8 Grabovica, I should say, at the end of August or beginning of September?

9 1993.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The answer is yes, people were living there?

12 A. Yes, and they still live there to this very day.

13 Q. Thank you. I would like to move on to another issue now which --

14 MR. METTRAUX: You can remove the map from the ELMO now. Thank

15 you.

16 Q. I would like now to move back to another issue which was touched

17 very briefly earlier today; namely, the retaking of Grabovica by ABiH

18 forces. As a man of limited - thank you - military experience, were you

19 able to identify any of the units which took part in that operation, from

20 the ABiH side, that is?

21 A. I don't quite understand the question.

22 Q. Well, my question is: Do you know the names of any of the units

23 which took part in the operation when the village of Grabovica was retaken

24 by the ABiH? The names of some of those units.

25 A. I saw the flag of the ABiH and another flag with a crescent and

Page 50

1 stars.

2 Q. So you don't know the name? That's the answer? You don't know

3 the name of any of those units?

4 A. Well, there was the flag of the army and of BH.

5 Q. Very well. Earlier today you told the Prosecution that during

6 the relevant period of time you had not been an HVO soldier; am I correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I would like to read out to you your statement of the 3rd of

9 December, 1995 to the Office of the Prosecutor. This is the last

10 paragraph, where you say that: "At the time the village was attacked,

11 that is, for the first time in 1993, I was a member of the HVO army. But

12 after my arrest and release, I continued as a civilian."

13 Were you not an HVO soldier at the relevant time?

14 A. I had a work obligation, but under HVO control. And later I

15 continued performing my work obligation from the 18th of March, 1993. If

16 I had been in the HVO, I would not have continued in that role.

17 Q. So am I correct in understanding that this was an HVO assignment

18 but of a nonmilitary sort?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. And despite this affiliation of yours with the HVO,

21 you went back to live -- or you stayed first to live in Grabovica and then

22 returned there after you had been arrested for one day; is that correct?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. Despite this affiliation, you did not encounter any particular

25 problems with locals. I mean Muslim locals.

Page 51

1 A. No. And there weren't any such locals in any case.

2 Q. Well, there were, sir, a number of military units, weren't there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There was, for instance, the Handzar Division in Grabovica.

5 A. Yes, and everything was peaceful until the beginning of

6 September.

7 Q. And they were on your side of the village, that is, the right

8 side of the village, sir.

9 A. No. They were on the left side, and later I don't know.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... there were also the Cedo's

11 Wolves in Grabovica at the time. Isn't that so?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they were living in the huts of the hydroelectric plant in

14 Grabovica; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 52

1 (redacted)

2 You may proceed.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

4 Q. You were not the only Croat citizen, sir, to remain in the

5 village. In fact, many of them stayed behind.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Others came back later to the village after it had been retaken.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've mentioned earlier, sir, that several of the Croatian

10 citizens who lived in the village were of military age.

11 A. Yes. But they weren't members of any formations.

12 Q. Well, there were a number of HVO or, rather, ex-HVO soldiers

13 living in the village, sir, weren't there?

14 A. But from the 10th of May, 1993 until the 7th of September, only

15 the ABiH was there. Up until the 2nd of May, 1993 is different. For four

16 months, it was calm.

17 Q. Yes, I understand that, sir. The question is: Among the

18 citizens who remained or who returned in Grabovica, there were a number of

19 individuals who had before the 7th of May been members of the HVO; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Not before the 7th of May. In terms of age, yes, but this

22 doesn't concern membership.

23 Q. Well, what about Mr. Cvitan Lovric, for instance? Had he been an

24 HVO soldier?

25 A. I don't know. That's the village below mine.

Page 53

1 Q. What about Mr. Ivan Saric?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What about Josip Brekalo?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What about Marinko Maric?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Mladen Zadro?

8 A. No.

9 MR. METTRAUX: I'd ask the court deputy to show a letter from the

10 Bosnian Federal Ministry for Veterans. It's a letter dated 18 May 2004

11 which is addressed to the Defence team. It is DD00.2551.

12 Q. Can you see the list, sir?

13 A. Yes, I see it.

14 Q. Those are the names I read out to you, sir, aren't they?

15 A. [No interpretation]

16 Q. And those are people who receive pensions from the HVO.

17 MR. RE: Well, I object to that.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. RE: This is not a question -- this is not a question this

20 particular witness can answer. Look, for a start, this is the first time

21 the Prosecution sees this document, of course, and it's not in English, as

22 is required if it's going to be broadcast. Well, what I've got on the

23 screen is not in English. It's --

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. RE: It's in Croatian.

Page 54

1 The witness can comment on what the document -- can look at the

2 document, but the witness is not entitled to give an opinion as to the

3 status, military or civilian or otherwise, of the names of the people on

4 that particular document. That's a legal issue.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, Mr. Re, on the first point I agree

6 with you that this document should be English. I will ask the Defence

7 counsel to give us an explanation on that.

8 On the second issue, I'm sorry, I cannot agree with you because

9 the Defence counsel asked some questions particularly related to this

10 document. Then the Defence showed this document to the witness to

11 confront the testimony of this witness. I -- what I need is an

12 explanation from this witness: How did he answer his question, are there

13 any changes for his previous answer on that. It's quite normal procedure

14 in cross-examination.

15 MR. RE: Your Honour, could I just be heard further on one

16 particular aspect, and that goes to the status. Of course the Prosecution

17 has to prove that these people were not combatants. For example, there

18 was a recent ruling earlier this week in the Strugar case concerning

19 similar documents which were tendered in that particular case relating to

20 the civilian status or otherwise of a --

21 JUDGE LIU: Let us hear what the witness is going to tell us

22 first.

23 You may proceed. And you have to answer me, the first --

24 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour. It must be a technical

25 matter. We have the document in English on our screen.

Page 55

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think it's a technical problem, you know.

3 The English version appeared on my screen. Thank you very much.

4 You may proceed.

5 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Sir, having read this document, is there anything you would like

7 to add or change in what you've told me earlier?

8 A. Cvitan Lovric, I don't know. Ivan Saric, son of Pero, what year

9 was he born in?

10 Q. Sir, do you still stand by your evidence that those people were

11 not HVO --

12 A. No. When was Ivan Saric, son of Pero, born? That might enable

13 me to say whether he was an HVO member. What was his date of birth?

14 Q. Well, we will show you the request which was sent to the ministry

15 later if we can find it, which should allow you to verify that this is

16 indeed the people that --

17 A. I am asking about his year of birth.

18 Q. We will endeavour to provide you with that information.

19 Do you confirm the evidence which you gave me earlier about the

20 other people, sir, or -- for example, Josip Brekalo.

21 A. No, no, no. Josip Brekalo, no. Marinko Maric, he lived in

22 Konjic. He was an engineer and he had a work obligation, and through

23 people he knew he managed to reach Jablanica. Then they provided him with

24 authorisation, a certificate for him to go down there. When he got down

25 there, he didn't join up anywhere.

Page 56

1 Q. What about Mladen Zadro?

2 A. Mladen Zadro, no. Slavko Mendes, I don't know him. Kata Ljubic,

3 I don't know him.

4 Q. Very well. We'll just move on from that at this stage and come

5 back to it a bit later.

6 Sir, is that correct, the Croatian inhabitants of Grabovica were

7 not left to care for themselves? What I would like to ask you is whether

8 anyone assisted you in providing you with food, for instance?

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Mettraux, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I

10 was advised that this document has been marked for identification at this

11 stage. Otherwise, we will lose it.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, we would mark it for identification for the

13 time -- for the time being, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you very much.

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked for identification 98.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, is that correct that Zulfikar Alispago, Zuka, and his unit

19 provided you with food or organised buses for Jablanica?

20 A. No. They only organised medical treatment that came to the

21 hydroelectric plant on Friday. But as for food, they didn't even have

22 enough to be able to give us food. No one received food. But medical

23 treatment was received.

24 Q. So the doctor would come to Grabovica once a week on Friday; am I

25 correct?

Page 57

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there any bus organised to take you to Jablanica?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Sir, you've noted earlier that there were a number of Muslim

5 refugees in the village at the time, that is, at the beginning of

6 September 1993.

7 A. They started arriving towards the end of August 1993.

8 Q. And you said that at the relevant time there were about 100 or

9 150 of them; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. They couldn't all go to Jablanica, so they settled in

11 Grabovica.

12 Q. As you said, sir, there were many more refugees, Muslim refugees,

13 in Jablanica.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. As far as Grabovica is concerned, there were Muslim refugees on

16 both sides of the Neretva River.

17 A. There were more of them on the left bank of the Neretva, and

18 there were two or three of them on the right bank.

19 Q. Thank you. And one of them stayed at your place, Mrs. -- perhaps

20 we should go to private session now.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Mrs. Repesa didn't stay at your place, did she?

23 A. No. She only paid a visit.

24 Q. Very well. Muslim refugees would be walking around the village

25 and go from one side to the other.

Page 58

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You would see them everywhere and they would be asking for food.

3 A. Yes. That's what everyone did.

4 Q. And some of them -- yes.

5 A. And if there was any food, we would share it among ourselves.

6 Q. And some of those refugees, sir, were in a rather sorry state,

7 weren't they?

8 A. Yes, they were.

9 Q. And you and other villagers made a big effort in trying to assist

10 those people. And as you said, several of you gave them food.

11 A. To the extent that we could, yes.

12 Q. So that during the summer of 1993 there was a constant flow of

13 refugees coming to Grabovica and Jablanica.

14 A. From the end of August 1993, but I don't know about Jablanica.

15 Q. And the flow of refugees, sir, would have been particularly

16 intense in late August and early September; wouldn't that be so?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And a particularly large number of refugees, perhaps as many as

19 250, arrived on the evening of the 8th of September, passing through and

20 for some of them stopping in Grabovica; is that so, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. METTRAUX: I'd ask the court deputy to show us document

23 DD002167. It is a report of assistant commander for security of the 44th

24 Brigade to the 6th Corps command concerning that arrival.

25 Q. In the relevant passage, sir, it says: "In the night between 8

Page 59

1 and 9 September, some 250 detainees from the Dretelj camp arrived in

2 Jablanica. And it continues: "They walked to Grabovica and then we drove

3 them to Jablanica."

4 Is that your recollection of what happened that evening, sir?

5 A. On the 9th of September.

6 Q. It would be the night, sorry, between the 8th and the 9th.

7 A. Where were they shelled from?

8 Q. I am not sure, sir, I have understood your comment.

9 A. Where was it shelled from?

10 Q. Sorry, sir, I'm not asking you about any -- any instance of

11 shelling but about merely the issue of the arrival of the detainees,

12 whether the sentence which I've read out to you are identical to your own

13 recollection of what happened on that night. And I will reread those two

14 sentences. It says: "In the night between 8 and 9 September, some 250

15 detainees from the Dretelj camp arrived in Jablanica." It then goes on to

16 say: "They walked to Grabovica and then we drove them to Jablanica."

17 Does that correspond to your own recollection, sir?

18 A. No. Not on the 9th of September.

19 Q. So you can't remember this arrival of the detainees.

20 A. Not on the 9th of September. Here I can see that it says "The

21 9th of September, 1993."

22 Q. It says the "8th," sir. Between the 8th and the 9th."

23 A. The army held Grabovica from the 10th of September, 1993.

24 Q. It should be on the fourth line, sir, in the Croatian language.

25 The fourth line of the document.

Page 60

1 Perhaps the witness should be assisted. Thank you.

2 A. Nothing is clear to me here. I see it says "the 9th of

3 September, 1993," but I don't know.

4 Q. Well, the document, sir, says that "Between the 8th or in the

5 evening of the 8th of September, 1993 a group of 200 or 250, rather,

6 refugees arrived. Can you remember this arrival? You have indicated

7 earlier that you remember that refugees were arriving that day, I believe.

8 A. I don't remember them arriving between the 8th and the 9th, but

9 later on towards the end of August 1993, I remember that. And at the

10 beginning of September 1993. But this doesn't ring any bells.

11 MR. METTRAUX: Can this document be marked for identification for

12 the time being.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI99.


15 Q. Sir, do you know what the Dretelj camp is or was? Have you heard

16 about it?

17 A. No. I couldn't have heard about it, since I too was imprisoned.

18 Q. Well, sir, you were not imprisoned from May 1993 until September

19 1993, and you didn't hear anything about the Dretelj camp at that time?

20 Not in the news? Not in the newspaper?

21 A. There was no electricity and I couldn't read the newspapers or

22 follow the news.

23 Q. And you didn't hear it from any of the refugees themselves?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Sir, the Dretelj camp is one of the most famous Croatian

Page 61

1 concentration camps.

2 MR. RE: I object.


4 MR. RE: Unless Mr. Mettraux can demonstrate some relevance to

5 this to the indictment and the defence of his client, the Prosecution

6 objects to this particular line of questioning.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.

8 MR. METTRAUX: Well, if I may, Your Honour, the relevance will be

9 demonstrated by the appearance of some of those -- or the likely

10 appearance, physical appearance, that is, of some of the detainees who

11 arrived on that night and their effect that their arrival might have had

12 on the village.

13 Q. Sir --

14 MR. RE: I pursue the objection. If that's the line of

15 questioning, we really do pursue the objection.

16 JUDGE LIU: We still cannot understand what's your point.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Well, you -- if Your Honour -- if Your Honour

18 allows me, we will come to that and the main issue very, very soon. The

19 fact is that some of those people just came out of a concentration camp.

20 They had been malnourished, beaten, mistreated.

21 MR. RE: Well, this is evidence from the bar table.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well --

23 MR. METTRAUX: This is alleged in the Prlic indictment,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Maybe this is your case, you know, on that. But -

Page 62

1 but - the question you asked may be not very proper to this witness and

2 this witness already answered your question concerning of the refugees as

3 well as the concentration camps already. So could we pass this.

4 MR. METTRAUX: Certainly, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: And move on.

6 MR. METTRAUX: Certainly.

7 Q. Sir, I would like to come back on something you've told

8 earlier, which is the presence of refugees on both sides of the village.

9 You also saw refugees on the 9th of September when you left the village.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you saw them on your side of the village; that would be the

12 right side of the village.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Some of them were walking around the village; others were

15 standing in front of houses.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, sir, a bit later in the day, once you were out of the

18 village, you also saw a number of those refugees entering the houses.

19 A. Yes. Entering houses and taking whatever they needed. Taking

20 things from the houses.

21 Q. But you couldn't see what was happening inside the houses.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you as well a few questions about

24 the troops or the soldiers which you saw in the village on that day. As

25 far as the latest arrivants were concerned, you didn't know them very

Page 63

1 well, did you, sir?

2 A. No, I didn't know any of those who arrived that morning.

3 Q. You didn't know their names.

4 A. I didn't know them.

5 Q. And you didn't know nicknames either.

6 A. No, only one or two.

7 Q. Well, what would be those nicknames, sir? Would that be Tiki?

8 A. Yes, Tiki, Kralj, Corba.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Grga?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. But you don't know the names of those people you've just listed.

12 A. No.

13 Q. Nor do you know, sir, what units they were members of.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you ever asked, sir, to identify any of the villages which

16 you could have seen on that day by being shown pictures? Were you ever

17 shown pictures and were you asked to identify any of the soldiers you

18 could have seen on that day, for instance in front of your house?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were you ever asked to describe in some detail what those

21 individuals looked like?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Concerning the arrival of the troops, I just want to be clear on

24 that. You've indicated that the first group of new soldiers arrived on

25 the 7th of September, 1993. Is that correct?

Page 64

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you also indicated that at that stage the situation was calm.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that on the 8th of September a second group of soldiers

5 arrived in the village.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And those troops accommodated themselves in the village, some in

8 empty houses, others with local Croats.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you've also indicated that some of the local Croats had

11 offered to accommodate some of the arriving soldiers. Is that so?

12 A. Yes. Yes. For example, Marinko Maric.

13 Q. Do you have other examples, sir, of people who would have offered

14 their houses for soldiers?

15 A. He had enough room and he took them in. They wanted to be close

16 to the road.

17 Q. Sir, just so that I'm clear about the person we are talking

18 about, is the father's -- Marinko Maric's name, his father Simun or

19 Martin?

20 A. Yes. Martin. Martin.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. METTRAUX: Could we go in private session for a minute,

23 please.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 65











11 Page 65 redacted. Private session.















Page 66

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]


14 Q. You've described the arrival of the second group of soldiers on

15 the 8th of September, and as I understand, they were loud and somewhat

16 rowdy and shot in the air.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you also indicated that it lasted all day, the shooting, that

19 is.

20 A. Yes, intermittently.

21 Q. And in the night as well, sir?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Mettraux, do you have to repeat all the

24 testimony the witness gave in the direct?

25 MR. METTRAUX: I would undertake not to do it, Your Honour.

Page 67

1 Q. Sir, one witness who has appeared before this Trial Chamber has

2 described the arrival of those troops as some sort of celebration. Would

3 that be a fair description of what happened that day?

4 A. That's not how I'd describe it. People should celebrate

5 differently. Not by doing bad things.

6 Q. Very well. But the situation changed with the arrival of those

7 soldiers.

8 A. A hundred per cent.

9 Q. And on the morning of the 9th of September, you stood out with

10 Munevera Repesa outside of your house.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It could have been about 8.00 in the morning or so, or even

13 earlier.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was it earlier, sir?

16 A. Was it earlier when I was standing there with Repesa?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. No, no, no. It was about 10.00 or a little after 10.00.

19 Q. Munevera Repesa was a refugee from Capljina.

20 A. Yes. And her daughter was with her.

21 Q. And that is one of the witnesses which you've helped over that

22 period. One of the people, sorry, the refugees which you helped during

23 that period.

24 A. I helped her and she helped me.

25 Q. And she must have told you, sir, that she had to be accommodated

Page 68

1 in Grabovica because there was no place left in Jablanica. She told you

2 that?

3 A. She arrived earlier and was accommodated there earlier while

4 there was still room.

5 Q. By "there," you mean in Jablanica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then she was moved back or moved to Grabovica when there was

8 not sufficient space in Jablanica.

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. Then you described the arrival of a second group of soldiers at

11 your place. And you said today in evidence that you heard what they told

12 Munevera Repesa.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But in fact Munevera herself told you what they had said. You

15 didn't hear it.

16 A. As we were going along the path.

17 Q. So Munevera told you what they had said.

18 A. She said to her daughter, "Now they're going to kill them all,"

19 but she didn't say that to me. But that's why she got frightened and

20 didn't know which way to go.

21 Q. And you got frightened, too, sir.

22 A. Well, I had to.

23 Q. And then, as you said, she helped you, you helped her, and you

24 both went out of the village.

25 A. She remained in the village, but I went on to hide in the woods.

Page 69

1 She was not in danger of being killed.

2 Q. But she walked you out of the village, sir. She remained in the

3 village but walked out to the end of the village with you.

4 A. No, no, no. No, she didn't go to the end of the village with me.

5 We separated at Andrija and Mara Dreznjak's house and Dragica Dreznjak's

6 house. That's where we separated.

7 Q. And as you went, you saw many soldiers and refugees in the

8 village.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you heard shooting.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you didn't see any dead bodies in the street.

13 A. No.

14 Q. And there was no fighting nor any resistance on the part of the

15 locals.

16 A. No.

17 Q. You, sir, did not eyewitness any of the killings.

18 A. No. Had I been an eyewitness, I would have been killed myself.

19 Q. Nor did you see what happened to your parents.

20 A. No. I only heard the shooting inside the house.

21 Q. Sir, during your last interview with the Office of the Prosecutor

22 on the 25th of July, 2003, you were asked whether it was possible that

23 some of the refugees had taken part in the killing in Grabovica. And I

24 will read out to you your answer. It's at paragraph 20. "I just

25 eyewitnessed when refugees were entering the houses in the village,

Page 70

1 stealing food and other things, pushing away owners of the houses if they

2 tried to resist. It was happening as soon as they arrived to the village,

3 several days before the massacre."

4 And as you mentioned today, you also saw several of the refugees

5 entering houses. And you saw plenty of them in the village on that day.

6 A. When the soldiers carried out the massacre, then the refugees

7 rushed into the houses and took away the things they needed. First they

8 killed the people, and then they went in and took whatever they needed.

9 Q. Well, if you were asked today the same question as you were asked

10 by the Prosecution in July of last year as to whether any of the refugees

11 could have taken any part in the killing in Grabovica. Sir, could you

12 exclude this possibility?

13 MR. RE: I object to this question.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. RE: First of all, it's speculative. The evidence has been

16 fairly clear from the witness that he did not actually see any killings.

17 He heard shooting -- he heard shootings. He saw soldiers. And his

18 evidence has been the refugees weren't armed, those that he saw. What

19 could the witness saying yes or no to this witness -- to this question, in

20 what way could this possibly advance anything before this Trial Chamber?

21 It's pure speculation and it's not his -- not his job to answer -- to

22 speculate.

23 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you, Mr. Re.

24 You will either rephrase your question or drop it.

25 MR. METTRAUX: I'll move on, Your Honour.

Page 71

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.


3 Q. Sir, earlier today you've been shown a list of what purports to

4 be a list of alleged victims in Grabovica. This would be --



7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Mettraux, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but

8 considering that we still have an hour to go, could we make a stop here --

9 I mean break here and we'll have 15 minutes' break and then we'll come

10 back and continue your cross-examination? That might be a convenient

11 time.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Very well. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at ten minutes past 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.56 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

18 Q. Sir, before we go back to the issue of the list of alleged

19 victims, I would like your assistance once again in relation to geography

20 matters and Diva Grabovica in particulars -- in particular. Was Diva

21 Grabovica a Croatian village?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Wasn't Diva Grabovica a Catholic holy place?

24 A. That's the first time I've heard this.

25 Q. Very well. Was it -- did Croats live in Diva Grabovica? Would

Page 72

1 you be able to know that, or you don't know?

2 A. Since I was born, no.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 I would like to go now to the list of alleged victims which you

5 were shown before. You don't know, sir, who wrote that list?

6 A. Who wrote it?

7 Q. Yes. You don't know who wrote that list.

8 A. Their families, those who survived.

9 Q. Could the witness be shown the list once again, Mr. Court Deputy.

10 Thank you. It's MFI97.

11 You don't know, sir, who prepared that list?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. You don't know when it was prepared either?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. And you don't know whether it was in 1993, 1994, 1995, or even

16 later?

17 A. In 1993.

18 Q. How would you know that, sir?

19 A. Because information arrived from the refugees that no one had

20 survived and those who had survived were locked up in the museum in

21 Jablanica and everybody knew who had survived and who hadn't.

22 Q. But you don't know when the document was prepared. That was my

23 question.

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You don't know either who requested that list, sir?

Page 73

1 A. The Red Cross perhaps. The Red Cross was not allowed to enter

2 the village; although, all these institutions existed in Jablanica, and we

3 were not allowed to be visited by them until --

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the date.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They hid us whenever they were

6 supposed to come and see us.


8 Q. But you are not certain that it was requested by the Red Cross.

9 It is merely an inference on your part, a guess.

10 A. I am sure. They asked, but they didn't get approval.

11 Q. So the Red Cross asked for such a list but didn't obtain one; is

12 that your evidence, sir?

13 A. They asked to see the prisoners, but they couldn't get approval.

14 Q. I understand, sir. I'm asking you about the list which you have

15 in front of you. You don't know, you don't know for certain who asked for

16 that list.

17 A. The Red Cross.

18 Q. And that is merely a guess that you're make sir; is it correct?

19 There is no objective indication that would confirm or infer for that

20 matter your evidence?

21 A. I confirm what I know.

22 Q. Very well. You don't know either, sir, what the purpose of this

23 list was originally when it was first drafted?

24 A. To see whether someone was alive or not. That was the purpose.

25 And to know where the people are in the village down there.

Page 74

1 Q. But you don't know, sir, what evidence was used to prepare that

2 document, what material.

3 A. That's what you think.

4 Q. Sir, have you seen any other lists of alleged victims from

5 Grabovica, any other list at any point? Were you shown any such lists?

6 A. I don't understand your question. I apologise.

7 Q. My apologies, sir. Apart from the list which you have in front

8 of you, were you shown any other list which would contain the names of

9 alleged victims from the incident in Grabovica? Were you ever shown

10 another list?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Are you aware of the existence of such alternative lists?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Very well.

15 MR. METTRAUX: I would like quickly to pass upon a number of

16 issues related to some of the persons you've mentioned earlier.

17 Q. First Mr. And Mrs. Marko and Matija Maric. Their house was not

18 in Grabovica.

19 A. No. It was in the village of Kremenac.

20 Q. That's correct, sir. That's the small village which is 1

21 kilometre or so outside of Grabovica; is that so?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And Marko Maric, sir, was a very old man. He was in poor health.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. He rarely got out of Kremenac. He generally stayed very close

Page 75

1 from his house in Kremenac; is that so?

2 A. Sometimes he would go to Jablanica to buy food.

3 Q. But the last time you saw him, sir, was sometime in July 1993.

4 A. Yes. Yes, yes. I took some food to him and some matches and a

5 lighter and some other things.

6 Q. Since then you did not see him, sir?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And unfortunately you have had no other information about him.

9 A. No. His wife was found and buried in Mostar.

10 Q. But his body, sir, was never found.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Are you aware, sir, of what may be called rumours that Marinko

13 Maric and perhaps also his wife, Matija, might have been killed one month

14 after the events of Grabovica?

15 A. I heard that when I was in the camp, but I couldn't say.

16 Q. It's okay.

17 A. I heard that from soldiers -- no, from --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology: From prisoners.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

20 Q. I would like to move on now to Mara Mandic.

21 A. She wasn't found.

22 Q. She wasn't found, sir, and you haven't seen her -- you hadn't

23 seen her - I apologise - since late August 1993. Is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And are you aware of any search story that Mara Mandic managed to

Page 76

1 escape with Stanko Saric towards Mostar several days before the alleged

2 incident in Grabovica? Did you hear such stories, sir?

3 A. Yes, later on, but they never contacted us.

4 Q. Jozo Istuk, sir. You've already mentioned that he didn't live in

5 Grabovica.

6 A. No. In the village of Ominje Dreznica.

7 Q. Isn't, you was always took from Copi, sir?

8 A. There's Copi and then there's Ominje. A bit further on from Copi

9 in the direction of Mostar.

10 Q. And you've indicated, sir, that you cannot recall the last time

11 when you saw him prior to the incident.

12 A. I don't know. I don't know. I didn't see him. They say he was

13 killed in July 1993. That's what I heard.

14 Q. And his body was never found, sir.

15 A. Yes, it was. He's buried at the Copi cemetery.

16 Q. Thank you. We'll stay in Copi for a minute. Cvitan and Jela

17 Lovric also lived in Copi.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That's the village we've discussed earlier, which is 4 kilometres

20 or 5 kilometres away from Grabovica; is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And they were not in Grabovica at the time of the incident, as

23 you indicated earlier.

24 A. I didn't say that. They were at Copi.

25 Q. And you --

Page 77

1 A. Jela Lovric, Copi. Cvitan Lovric, Copi. This is a mistake here.

2 Q. They are from -- they were living in Copi, sir; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes. They were husband and wife

4 Q. In September 1993, sir, that is.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you last saw them in May 1993.

7 A. Yes, in May.

8 Q. And since that time, you have had no information as to their

9 whereabouts.

10 A. No, no. No trace of them.

11 Q. Franjo Ravlic, sir, lived by the side of the M17, I'm sorry,

12 road.

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. He was accommodated on the left side of the village, wasn't he?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That's where most of the refugees were living.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you would not see him that often. The last time you saw him

19 was sometime in August 1993; is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Yes, in late August.

21 Q. You didn't stop to talk to him on that occasion? You just passed

22 by.

23 A. No, yes, yes.

24 Q. And since then, as with the previous persons, you have no

25 knowledge of their whereabouts.

Page 78

1 A. His body was found. It was taken out of the lake in Dreznica and

2 buried.

3 Q. But you don't know what happened to him from the period of August

4 1993 onwards, that is, the last time when you saw him. You don't know

5 what happened to him.

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Pero and Matija Culjak, sir. You said they were also from the

8 village of Copi.

9 A. Yes, and on the 9th of September, they happened to be in

10 Grabovica.

11 Q. Yes. You've indicated, sir, if I'm correct on the transcript,

12 that you saw them in Grabovica on the 5th or 6th of September.

13 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

14 Q. Since that date, the 5th or the 6th of September, you don't know,

15 sir, where those people went?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You have no information.

18 Are you aware of any stories, rumours, that this person and his

19 mother were taken out of Grabovica and transferred to Jablanica on the

20 20th of October, 1993? Did you hear such stories, sir?

21 A. Who? Sorry, who are you talking about?

22 Q. Pero Culjak.

23 A. No, no, no. Pero Culjak and Matija Culjak, Josip Brekalo and

24 Luca Brekalo, and Anica Pranjic, they were all in one house staying with

25 Josip Brekalo and now they're missing.

Page 79

1 Q. Pranjic Anica, sir, she lived on the left side of the Neretva

2 River.

3 A. Yes. Yes. She lived on the left bank of the Neretva, but she

4 came to stay with Josip because she was elderly and she was his aunt.

5 Q. And you last saw her early in September, sir; is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. That was at Josip's house, Josip Brekalo's house?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. But since then you don't know what happened to Anica Pranjic.

10 A. No. I don't know anything about the five of them, what happened

11 to them.

12 Q. Martin Maric, sir. He lived in a house below the railway towards

13 Mostar.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. He lived close to Ilka Maric, didn't he?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you saw him for the last time sometime in early September of

18 1993.

19 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

20 Q. You're not sure exactly when, but it was sometime early in

21 September.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you don't know what happened to him thereafter.

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Did you hear any stories, sir, that Martin Maric was able to

Page 80

1 escape and leave for -- sorry, and leave the village of Grabovica before

2 the troops from Sarajevo arrived? Did you ever hear such stories, sir?

3 A. Yes. He was born in 1911. He could have fled [as interpreted].

4 Where would he have fled to? Born in 1911. He could hardly walk, let

5 alone flee.

6 Q. Did you hear any such stories, sir?

7 A. No. If he had wanted to flee or if someone had wanted to flee,

8 Marinko Maric could have.

9 Q. Thank you, sir.

10 Brekalo Luca and Brekalo Josip, they lived above the railway

11 towards Jablanica.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you also last saw them on the 5th or 6th of September, 1993.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you don't know what happened to them since then.

16 A. I don't know. One can only assume.

17 Q. Ivan Saric also lived on the left side of the river in Grabovica;

18 that is, sir, is that correct?

19 A. Yes. And his body was spotted floating down the Neretva. That's

20 something that I found out about later.

21 Q. You haven't seen the body yourself. This is a story which you've

22 heard later. Is that correct, sir?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And the last time you saw Ivan Saric was sometime, again, at the

25 beginning of --

Page 81

1 A. Towards the end of August.

2 Q. Towards the end of August. Sorry. Thank you very much.

3 And there again, Marinko Maric and Luca Maric. They, too, lived

4 below the railway towards Mostar; is that correct, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. They were close to Martin Maric's house, which you've discussed a

7 bit earlier.

8 A. In the same house.

9 Q. In the same house. Thank you.

10 A. The father, the son, and the bride.

11 Q. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Marinko and his wife, Luca, had

12 come from Konjic sometime in April or May 1993.

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. And once the conflict between HVO and ABiH started, they were

15 locked in a way in Grabovica. They couldn't leave.

16 A. They came to Grabovica when it was under the control of the ABiH.

17 Marinko came, and Luca had come earlier on.

18 Q. So they had arrived at the time when the village was still under

19 HVO control and they stayed after the village was retaken. Is that your

20 evidence, sir?

21 Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood you. You are saying that they

22 came to the village --

23 A. Marinko came when the village was under the ABiH.

24 Q. And so did Luca.

25 A. Luca had come earlier on, when the village was under the control

Page 82

1 of the HVO.

2 Q. That's clear now. Thank you, sir.

3 Ilka and Ruza Maric also lived in Grabovica at the time.

4 A. Yes, they're mother and daughter.

5 Q. And you saw them for the last time on the 7th of September; is

6 that so, sir?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Could you tell us, sir, where you saw them last.

9 A. In their house.

10 Q. In their house.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You didn't see them after that time.

13 A. Never.

14 Q. Ilka Miletic, she also lived in Grabovica on the left side of the

15 village.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That is, again, the opposite side of the village from where you

18 were living yourself.

19 A. Yes. By the bus station, on the other side of the M17 road.

20 Q. And you last saw Ilka at the end of August 1993.

21 A. Towards the end of August, yes.

22 Q. And you don't know what came of her after that time.

23 A. No.

24 MR. METTRAUX: I'd ask to go into private session for a minute.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

Page 83

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 84











11 Page 84 redacted. Private session.















Page 85

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Mr. Mettraux.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

11 Q. Sir, there is -- many of the inhabitants of Grabovica were

12 evacuated shortly after the incident.

13 A. I wasn't aware of that. While I was there, no one assisted in

14 that. No one carried that out.

15 Q. Well, if evidence were to be led in this courtroom that perhaps

16 18 or more people, civilians living in Grabovica, were evacuated from the

17 village after the incident, you would not dispute that evidence, sir? You

18 simply don't know?

19 A. No, I wouldn't dispute that, but I don't know when that

20 evacuation took place.

21 Q. Thank you. There are two short matters that I would like to

22 discuss with you very briefly. The first one concerns your various

23 interviews with the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.

24 In your latest statement, sir, of July 2003 you mention having

25 been interviewed by the Prosecution on four occasions; is that correct?

Page 86

1 MR. RE: That's not -- that's not correct. My learned friend is

2 misstating it. I brought this up yesterday. Please quote directly from

3 it. It says: "I think on four occasions."

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this is a subject for the discussion

5 here. I believe that Defence counsel could ask that question in this

6 aspect, so we'll give opportunity to this witness to have it clarified for

7 us.

8 You may proceeding -- you may proceed.


10 Q. Yes. Sir, could you tell us how many times you were interviewed

11 by the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.

12 A. I was interviewed on a number of occasions, but I don't know how

13 often exactly.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 The last matter which I would like to raise with you, sir,

16 relates to the issue of accommodation which you addressed earlier. You

17 were told that -- you were told by Marinko Maric that arrangement had been

18 made to accommodate soldiers in his house.

19 A. Yes, an agreement was reached. An agreement was reached when the

20 leaders of the ABiH army had visited the houses and said that nothing

21 would happen to anything, that they only wanted accommodation, and things

22 ended in the way that they ended.

23 Q. Well, what Marinko Maric reported to you was a meeting, sir, to

24 which you had referred in your earlier statement of 23rd September 1995.

25 It's a meeting that you referred to as having taken place on the 1st of

Page 87

1 September of 1993.

2 A. I don't know whether there was a meeting, but it was at the

3 beginning of September. I don't know whether there was a meeting, but

4 some agreements were reached at the beginning of September.

5 Q. So it could have been the 1st of September, as you had indicated

6 in your earlier statement, when your memory was perhaps fresher, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the information which you received from Marinko Maric is the

9 basis of your statement and you have exhausted your memory on this matter?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you have told us what you could remember?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. METTRAUX: That would be all, Your Honour. Thank you very

14 much.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

16 Any redirect, Mr. Re?

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. RE: Yes, there are several matters I wish to clarify.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

20 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Re:

22 Q. Witness B, you were asked a number of questions about refugees,

23 Muslim refugees in the village. Just to completely clarify this. Was --

24 did you see any of these refugees in uniform or bearing arms at any time?

25 A. No. No. No.

Page 88

1 Q. What was it that distinguished these refugees from the ABiH

2 soldiers in the village?

3 A. Well, they were wearing civilian clothes and they weren't

4 carrying any weapons.

5 Q. My learned colleague also asked you about the refugee Munevera

6 Repesa. And you told him in cross-examination that she wasn't in danger

7 of being killed, which is why she didn't go with you. Why wasn't she, a

8 Muslim refugee, in danger of being killed by ABiH soldiers?

9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we'd object.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 Wait, Witness.

12 MR. METTRAUX: The witness is asked to assume facts and to make a

13 guess as to that matter.

14 JUDGE LIU: I think the answer is quite obvious. Although it's

15 kind of speculation in this aspect, but we'll let this question to put to

16 this witness.

17 Witness, you may answer this question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this isn't guesswork. The

19 ABiH army wouldn't have killed her, and that is not a matter of guesswork,

20 sir. But as for the two Croats of Zuka's, one was killed and one was

21 taken as a bodyguard. If they had known about him, they'd have killed him

22 too.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. You also answered some questions in cross-examination, and you --

25 about the refugees, and you said that they had been entering houses and

Page 89

1 taking away what they needed. And your evidence was this was at a time

2 when the village was under the control of ABiH soldiers. Did you ever see

3 the ABiH soldiers do anything to prevent these people entering Croat

4 villager's homes and taking away things?

5 A. No. No, no.

6 Q. Was there anything you saw from the behaviour of the ABiH

7 soldiers or their -- anything you saw about them that in your view, from

8 your observations, could have prevented them from stopping the refugees

9 going into houses and taking things?

10 A. No. No one tried to prevent that, as far as I'm concerned, in my

11 part.

12 Q. Witness B, you also answered a question and said -- in relation

13 to the survival or otherwise of people on that list MFI97. You said that

14 information had arrived from the refugees that no one had survived and

15 those who had survived were locked up in the museum. What was your

16 information about the non-survival of the people in the village? What

17 were you told?

18 A. Yes. Because they were refugees and they were living in Croatian

19 houses and they told me the truth. But some didn't feel free to speak,

20 but later everything came to light. And some would have helped, but they

21 didn't dare.

22 [Prosecution counsel confer]

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Yes. Well, you said they told you the truth. What was it they

25 told you that you considered to be the truth?

Page 90

1 A. Well, that they didn't see each other.

2 Q. Sorry, you said --

3 A. And that they weren't in the house and if they weren't there,

4 that means something happened to them. But as to what happened to them,

5 where they were, who had taken them away, I don't know.

6 Q. Do you remember being shown that list which was MFI97.

7 MR. RE: Could that please be shown again on the screen.

8 Q. Mr. Mettraux asked you some questions about it. To clarify this,

9 was it your -- is it your view that everyone on that list, as far as you

10 know, are concerned, is dead?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. To your knowledge, were any of those people on that list taking

13 any active part in hostilities in Grabovica in September 1993?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can you also, please, be shown MFI98, which is a list of names on

16 Bosnian Federation letterhead.

17 MR. RE: That's MFI98. That was the Defence document, if it

18 assists.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We have it.

20 MR. RE: Yes. Thank you.

21 Q. The English translation, I believe, says at the top paragraph:

22 "Members of the families of the below listed, registered users of

23 soldiers, invalid protection at -- at ministry."

24 Witness B, are you aware of the conditions for the families of

25 dead to receive pensions from the government of the Federation of Bosnia

Page 91

1 and Herzegovina or the State of Bosnia and Herzegovina or even the

2 Republic of Croatia or the Republika Srpska? Are you aware of the

3 conditions upon which family members are granted pensions?

4 A. Not really. I didn't receive anything for my people.

5 Q. Can I clarify "not really." You say you are unaware of the

6 positions upon which people -- family members may be granted pensions by

7 the government after other family members have been killed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You were also asked about the existence of alternative lists.

10 Have you ever seen any other lists such as death notices relating to the

11 people on that list of MFI97, the 33 names?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you ever attend any memorial services for these people?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When was that?

16 A. In Mostar, yes. In Mostar, when the autopsy was performed in

17 Split. I can't remember the month, but it was in 1994. Eight of them

18 were buried there.

19 Q. You also told -- you also said in -- in an answer that you heard

20 that Ivan Saric's body was -- was found floating in the river. Now, you

21 were in ABiH custody between the 12th of September, on your evidence, and

22 the 1st of March, 1994. When did you hear that his body had been found

23 floating in the river?

24 A. Others told me about this. When I got out on the 1st of March, I

25 heard this from inhabitants in areas where the ABiH wasn't present or,

Page 92

1 rather, in areas that weren't under the control of the ABiH. They got

2 Franjo Ravlic's body out and buried it, but they couldn't do the same for

3 Ivan Saric.

4 Q. What was your information about when his body was seen floating

5 in the river?

6 A. I couldn't say.

7 MR. RE: That completes my re-examination. Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Judge El Mahdi has a question.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 [Interpretation] Witness, I would just like to clarify something.

14 This concerns your testimony on the events that took place on the 9th of

15 September. You said that you were visited by two soldiers and then there

16 was a third group of soldiers.

17 A. A second group, and later a third group arrived.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] There was a second group of

19 soldiers that arrived, and then you said that you left with a lady, with a

20 refugee. And I'll quote what you said in English. You said the

21 following. You provided two different versions. Initially you said of

22 the soldiers who were there - and I'll quote - [In English] I'm quoting

23 you: "They were after me." [Interpretation] And then you said - I'll

24 quote you again - [In English] I'm quoting you: "They were watching me

25 leaving." [Interpretation] Were they going after you or were they

Page 93

1 watching you while you were leaving? What is your testimony?

2 A. They were only watching me.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But were they aware of

4 your ethnicity or at least did you have the impression that they knew

5 which ethnic group you belonged to or which ethnic group you belong to?

6 A. Yes. They were aware of the fact, but they were thinking of

7 returning home.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But they let you leave, then.

9 And after how much time did you -- how much time had passed when you heard

10 shots being fired?

11 A. Once I had moved away about 100 metres.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But how much time did it take?

13 A. It didn't take very long.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Ten minutes?

15 A. Three or four -- two or three minutes.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Two or three minutes?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you returned, and were the

19 soldiers there the same ones who had opened fire or were you not aware of

20 the incident itself? You only heard the noise? You saw the soldiers

21 returning to the house or leaving the house?

22 A. When the third group arrived, they opened fire. I only saw them

23 from a distance.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You saw them or you heard the

25 shots?

Page 94

1 A. Heard the shots. I heard the shots.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

3 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge El Mahdi.

5 At this stage are there any documents to tender? From the

6 Prosecution's side?

7 MR. RE: Only that MFI97, that list of names.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any objections?

9 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour. I don't think there is any

10 evidential basis to tender that document.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, this document has been used extensively during

12 the proceedings by both parties. If we are going to make our finding,

13 this is the basis of our findings. So your objection is overruled. This

14 document is admitted into the evidence.

15 THE REGISTRAR: And that will be Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit

16 P97.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 And on the part of the Defence?

19 MR. METTRAUX: Nothing, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

21 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

22 to give your evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds the hearing

23 is adjourned, she will take you out of this room. And we all wish you a

24 pleasant journey back home.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 95

1 JUDGE LIU: Is there anything that the parties would like to

2 raise?

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, please, Your Honour. There's just one

4 matter. The witness tomorrow I believe is to be Salko Gusic, a witness

5 who is likely to be the vehicle for the Prosecution to tender a large

6 number of exhibits or potential exhibits and for the Defence to take the

7 opportunity to put a number of documents to him as well.

8 One document that has -- we've been kindly provided by the

9 Prosecutor with a list of the exhibits they propose to put. It appears to

10 us that one such document is not yet the subject of leave being granted.

11 It's a matter that I would wish -- I'm sorry, I don't -- it's that one

12 there. I believe that's document number 166 on the list that Your Honour

13 may have in front of you.

14 This is a matter which I would discuss with counsel for the

15 Prosecution. It may be that I can agree to it. It may be that I can't

16 be. But I raise it at this stage because it seems to be the case, and

17 indicate that I'm proposing to discuss it. And it may be that no delay is

18 caused. But that's the status -- that's the status part.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, do you have any problem with these documents?

21 MR. MORRISSEY: In relation to that particular document there, I

22 suspect not, but it will have to be subject to discussion with the counsel

23 who's not present in court at the moment. I suspect it's not going -- in

24 any event, I make it clear that that should not of itself delay the

25 commencement of that witness, but it may -- it may be raised later, so I

Page 96

1 raise it now because I've noticed it.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I hope you could have found an opportunity to

3 discuss with the Prosecution team before the hearing.


5 JUDGE LIU: Sometimes, you know, we ourself did not know which

6 document, you know, is which and what is the status of that document at

7 this stage, and we also could look into our files and try to clarify it,

8 anything concerning with this document.

9 And as for the Defence motion for the postponement of the witness

10 testimony and for full disclosure of relevant materials filed January

11 19th, 2005, we believe that almost all matters have been dealt with during

12 the previous hearings and the Prosecution team answered many questions

13 raised in that motion and some of them are moot at this moment. So I

14 would like to say that this motion is dismissed.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.

16 May I indicate that it should not -- we don't know whether it

17 will be a problem, but we still have not been provided with the material

18 about which we complained. But, however, of course, we're bound by the

19 ruling and we'll proceed on that basis.

20 JUDGE LIU: But I understand that there's no objections from the

21 Prosecution's team that there might be a second opportunity for the

22 Defence to call back this witness.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, we'd be satisfied with that and

24 we'll proceed tomorrow.

25 JUDGE LIU: So the hearing is adjourned.

Page 97

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.08 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

3 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.