Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Monday, 21 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case

7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I believe that both parties

10 have received that proofing notes for the next witness furnished by the

11 Prosecution, the affidavit submitted by the OTP investigator as well as

12 the reports from the VWU units.

13 So, Mr. Morrissey, do you have anything to say at this stage?

14 MR. MORRISSEY: No, Your Honour. We have been given those

15 reports. I'm going to cross-examine this witness on them. I don't seek

16 to revisit Your Honours' ruling at this stage. It seems that they -- what

17 would -- the issue would be overtaken by events in any event. But,

18 Your Honour, what I want to put on record is this: The Prosecutor forces

19 the hand of this Tribunal when it makes late applications. The Tribunal

20 is not in a position to -- to dismiss lightly allegations that somebody is

21 under threat and you don't want to take a risk with a witness in case that

22 threat proves to be true.

23 When the Prosecutor makes a practice, and it plainly is a

24 practice of doing this late, it increases the danger of there being a

25 secret trial because you, the Tribunal, must be -- must err on the side of

Page 2

1 caution. You have to do so. And it just places the Defence in an

2 impossible TO position to do this if they do it at a late stage. The

3 pattern in this trial is all too clear. It's a policy. It cannot be said

4 to be late. The material that you've got before you now makes it clear.

5 This application could and should have been made two weeks ago. Whatever

6 the reasons may be, Your Honour, I'm not proposing to ask you to revisit

7 your ruling. I'm just going to cross-examine this witness.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation, and I

9 believe one point you said is -- is pretty valued, that is, that if the

10 party calling the witness asking for some protective measures, they have

11 to make it as early as possible.

12 So the rulings we made concerning of the protective measures for

13 the next witness remained unchanged.

14 And could we have the witness, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

18 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

25 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours.

Page 3

1 I would like to give the witness the -- his pseudonym sheet,

2 please.

3 Examined by Ms. Chana:

4 Q. Good morning, Witness. Do you see a piece of paper before you?

5 A. [No interpretation]

6 Q. Is your name, date of birth, and the place you were born

7 reflected on that piece of paper?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you, Witness.

10 MS. CHANA: May I please now tender this under seal, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: I believe the there's no objections from the Defence.

12 Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.

13 MS. CHANA: Obliged, Your Honour.

14 Now, with the Court's permission, I will lead the witness on his

15 personal particulars.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheet will be Prosecution Exhibit

17 P183, under seal.


19 Q. Before the war, you lived in Sarajevo; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You worked as a waiter?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You graduated from secondary school and studied catering for four

24 years.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4

1 Q. From 1987 to 1988, you served in the JNA, which is the Yugoslav

2 People's Army, as a cook.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On 6th April 1992, you joined the TO in the Stari Grad

5 municipality in Sarajevo.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were in a group of about 30 people who were mostly neighbours

8 and you guarded the families and patrolled the streets of the city.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In May 1992, you became a member of the 1st Sandzak Brigade.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And who was the commander of this brigade?

13 A. Merdzo Haznadar [phoen].

14 Q. And can you please, please, Witness, at the end of 1992 or the

15 beginning of 1993, what did you do.

16 A. In late 1993 and early -- late 1992-1993, we left the Sandzak

17 Brigade and declared ourselves the military police unit in the school in

18 Bratina, where Ramiz Delalic was the commander.

19 Q. What was the name of this brigade?

20 A. This was a unit of the military police. The military police.

21 And later on, a brigade was made up of this military police and the name

22 of it was the 9th Motorised Brigade.

23 Q. And you said the commander was Ramiz Delalic.

24 A. No. Ramiz Delalic was the deputy brigade commander, and Suljo

25 Imsirovic was the commander.

Page 5

1 Q. And were you in any particular unit of this 9th Brigade?

2 A. I was in the assault detachment.

3 Q. How many soldiers were in this assault detachment in your

4 brigade?

5 A. About 50 to 60 persons.

6 Q. And what is the function and purpose of an assault unit?

7 A. To go out for combat activities. So it was not to be in trenches

8 and to keep the line.

9 Q. How well equipped were you?

10 A. What do you mean how well equipped were we? As a unit, we were

11 armed quite well.

12 Q. What kind of arms were you bearing?

13 A. RPGs, hand-held launchers, automatic weapons.

14 Q. And what were you doing in September 1993, your -- this unit,

15 this brigade that you belonged to?

16 A. In September, on the 7th of September, this unit at the

17 headquarters of our brigade in Trampina Street received an order from the

18 Supreme Command with Mr. Sefer Halilovic at its head that we were to go to

19 deblock Mostar in the Neretva offensive. On that day, we received that

20 order and we set out sometime in the afternoon in small cars as far as the

21 tunnel. Then we went through the tunnel.

22 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, Witness. I'd like to take you through

23 slowly, if I may, please. Can you tell us when you received this order,

24 what do you mean "we received this order"?

25 A. Our brigade received an order from the Supreme Command, from the

Page 6

1 Supreme Command of the staff. Mr. Sefer Halilovic was at its head. We

2 received an order from Mr. Sefer Halilovic in writing, and it's now in the

3 possession of a person in Sarajevo who will certainly come to testify

4 here. And we had to go and lift the siege of Mostar. This was the

5 Neretva operation.

6 Q. Did anybody tell you about this order or did you all receive one

7 individually?

8 A. No. In the brigade, they told us. They told us in the command,

9 when they lined us up, before we were to set out. They said we had

10 received this order, that we were to go to Herzegovina.

11 Q. Who told you this? The name of the person, please.

12 A. Before we set out that day, a gentleman arrived. His name was

13 Vahid Karavelic. He was the corps commander. He was the deputy

14 commander. And Suljo Imsirovic, the brigade commander, and Delalic Ramiz,

15 his deputy. And they read out this order.

16 Q. Was Celo there?

17 A. Yes. Yes. Ramiz Delalic was Celo.

18 Q. How many soldiers were there assembled when you were told this?

19 A. There were 50 or 60 soldiers, but 25 or 30 of them were from our

20 assault detachment.

21 Q. And who were the rest from? Which other units?

22 A. From our brigade but other battalions. All of them were from our

23 brigade. Our brigade had 5.000 soldiers. I couldn't know them all

24 personally. Some men were separated off who had been in the brigade, and

25 the battalion commanders sent them.

Page 7

1 Q. So all of them were from the 9th Motorised Brigade; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes, all of them.

4 Q. And what exactly was said to you, to the assembled?

5 A. They told us who were assembled there that we were to go to

6 Herzegovina to lift the siege of Mostar, and on our arrival in Herzegovina

7 we would learn the details. We were going to another area of

8 responsibility, and our commander would no longer be commanding us there.

9 It would be Zulfikar Alispago. We would be under his command. And the

10 leader of this operation would be Commander Sefer Halilovic.

11 Q. And what was the name of this operation?

12 A. Operation Neretva.

13 Q. You were told this, were you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In whose zone of responsibility were you going in?

16 A. It was of the 4th or 6th Corps. I'm not sure. It was where

17 those two corps joined up. Salko Gusic was the commander of the 6th

18 Corps, and I think Mr. Drekovic was the commander of the 4th Corps.

19 Q. Had you known Sefer Halilovic before?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did you know him?

22 A. He used to come to our brigade, to our command, to our

23 headquarters. He toured all the brigades.

24 Q. Who was he?

25 A. He was the Chief of Staff. He wasn't the commander of the army,

Page 8

1 but he was the Chief of Staff because establishment-wise this duty was not

2 yet established.

3 Q. Did he have any other function?

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. All right. Now, can you tell me what happened next?

6 A. What do you mean? You mean when the brigade set off or ...?

7 Q. Yes. Now, this was 7 September, you said. Did you set off on

8 the same day?

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, on the same day in the evening, at around 7.00,

10 we set out. Passing through Dobrinja was risky because there was

11 shooting. So it was quite risky getting to the tunnel. When we set out,

12 we set out in small cars, several soldiers in each car. We reached the

13 tunnel, passed through the tunnel, arrived in Hrastici, where we were met

14 by Mr. Fikret --

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last name --

16 A. Who was to secure transport for us to Jablanica.


18 Q. Who else was travelling with you of the commanders?

19 A. Only Ante Delalic [phoen] and the platoon commander.

20 Q. Who was that?

21 A. Malco Rovcanin, Nihad Vlahovljak, Nevzet Sabanovic, the commander

22 of my platoon, and a few others whose names escape me now. And the

23 soldiers who were with us, if you want to know their names, I can tell

24 you.

25 Q. Yes. Could you tell us the soldiers' names that you remember,

Page 9

1 please.

2 A. Nedzad Mihanovic, Erdin Arnautovic, Nevzet Sabanovic, Sulejman --

3 Pilica Samir, Jasmin Mendic [phoen], Hukelic Ertan, Malco Rovcanin, and

4 several others.

5 Q. Did you reach a certain village in the early hours of the

6 morning?

7 A. On the 8th of September, we arrived in Donja Jablanica, where

8 Zulfikar Alispago's headquarters was, where this gentleman met us. It was

9 around 7.00 or 8.00. We had breakfast and Zuka said they would put us up

10 in this village called Grabovica.

11 After breakfast, we got onto trucks from Hrasnica, and they put

12 us up in the village of Grabovica, where there were Croatian civilians.

13 On the right-hand side were Croatian civilians, and on the left-hand side

14 were Muslim refugees.

15 Q. Did you pass a checkpoint where there -- something happened on

16 the way?

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I'd object to that. Your Honour will recall that

18 this checkpoint has been attempted to be led by my learned friends Mr. Re

19 and Mr. Weiner with different witnesses. It's entirely irrelevant to the

20 charges. It doesn't go to any material fact at all. And I object to it

21 as irrelevant.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, but I don't think so. I believe that the

23 previous witness has already testified about that checkpoint.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: It might -- there's -- it depends which

25 checkpoint. Perhaps if my learned friend could make clear which one she's

Page 10

1 talking about.

2 Your Honour will recall there's one I objected to and there's

3 others which are clearly relevant. So if it's clarified which one we're

4 talking about, I'll -- I'll see what I'll take.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think that's the point.

6 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.

7 Q. Did you go to any checkpoint as you travelled before you got to

8 Grabovica?

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I clarify. It will assist --

10 it will assist everyone in court, including my learned friend. I don't

11 object to questioning about any checkpoint after Jablanica on the way to

12 Grabovica. That's plainly relevant. It's that -- what happened en route

13 between -- between Hrasnica and Jablanica which was the cause of

14 controversy before. And perhaps if my friend could clarify which one

15 she's talking about, then we'll know.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please, please clarify that point.


18 Q. In the village of Pazaric.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: I do object. Your Honour, the evidence is --

20 well, it -- the map will show in any event that Pazaric lies between

21 Hrasnica but before they arrive at Jablanica. So I object to it as

22 irrelevant, as I did with the other two witnesses.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. What's -- what's the relevance of that

24 checkpoint?

25 MS. CHANA: The relevance of that checkpoint, Your Honour, is

Page 11

1 that -- the behaviour of the soldiers, and that's directly relevant to our

2 case.

3 JUDGE LIU: Maybe there's some follow-up questions on that issue?

4 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we -- we will see how relevant it is. You

6 may --

7 MS. CHANA: Yes.

8 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

9 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. We're talking about a checkpoint. Did you -- did you encounter a

11 checkpoint before you got there?

12 A. Do you mean before or after Jablanica?

13 Q. Before. Before.

14 A. Before Jablanica, there was a checkpoint in Pazaric -- no, not

15 Pazaric. What's the name of that place now? Where the road branches off

16 from Igman when you reach the main road leading from Hadzici. That's

17 where there was a checkpoint. There was some sort of military police

18 there, some kind of police, and they stopped us. It was early in the

19 morning, about 3.00 a.m. perhaps. And there was --

20 MR. MORRISSEY: I'd ask the witness to stop there, please.

21 Now, I maintain the objection here. Unless my learned friend

22 says it's part of the Prosecutor's case that Sefer Halilovic was there and

23 knew about this; otherwise, it's just a piece of irrelevant wayside

24 journey, in my submission. It's not part of the Prosecution's case just

25 to show what behaviour may have happened or may not have happened in the

Page 12

1 atmosphere. The question is whether Sefer Halilovic was there and knew

2 about it.

3 Now, if it's part of the Prosecution's case that he knew about

4 the Pazaric crossroads, then my friend had better say so. Otherwise, it's

5 irrelevant.


7 MS. CHANA: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, with due

8 respect, it's directly part of the Prosecution case, the behaviour of

9 these particular soldiers, and how they were behaving on their way.

10 I cannot see whether Sefer Halilovic was there or not precludes

11 us from calling such evidence. It's generally the mood of the soldiers as

12 they -- as they went for this combat operation.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, I don't think that that piece of the

14 evidence is the most important one, but I believe that the evidence may be

15 useful in the Defence case in the future, so we'll allow the questions to

16 proceed.

17 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Would you please tell us what happened at this checkpoint.

19 A. First I have to say that this checkpoint existed from the

20 beginning of the war. This was some kind of border toward Hadzici. So

21 ever since the war broke out and Igman was liberated, there was a

22 checkpoint there, and there was a minor incident at that checkpoint

23 because there was some kind of disagreement between my fellow fighters and

24 the soldiers manning the checkpoint. Perhaps they were drunk or they were

25 nervous. They wouldn't let us through. And they asked for special

Page 13

1 passes.

2 As in this period, soldiers of the army were fleeing Bosnia and

3 Herzegovina.

4 Q. Who? Who was drunk and nervous?

5 A. Well, those soldiers at the checkpoint, who were manning the

6 checkpoint and guarding it.

7 Q. So what kind of -- what ensued?

8 A. There was some kind of conflict, and then they let us through.

9 Q. Was -- was any weapons -- were any weapons fired off in this

10 conflict?

11 A. I don't know. I can't recall.

12 Q. All right. Now, moving right along. You went to Zuka's base,

13 you said. And who did you meet there?

14 A. Mr. Zuka came out. He had to take over our unit. We were now

15 under his command.

16 Q. And who is Zuka? Do you know -- did you know him before?

17 A. I knew Zuka from November 1992, when we went to Igman. There was

18 supposed to be some sort of offensive on a village called Junavica

19 [phoen]. There was some kind of military depots there with weapons. And

20 the aggressors were there. I met Zuka there. We spent some 15 or 20 days

21 there. We were unable to carry out this action and we returned to

22 Sarajevo because of the snow.

23 Q. And was Zuka -- you told the Court earlier that Zuka was to be

24 now your commander for this operation.

25 A. Yes.

Page 14

1 Q. And do you know who Zuka's commander was?

2 A. I don't know whether it was Salko Gusic or the commander of the

3 4th Corps, Drekovic. These two corps later were united. And from that

4 day onward it was Mr. Sefer Halilovic who was in charge of this operation.

5 Q. So he would be Zuka's commander, would he?

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours can see what the objection to

7 that is. The witness has given evidence, A, my learned friend in a

8 leading question has now tried to get him to say B. Now, it's

9 impermissible in a number of ways and I object to the question.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that question is a little bit leading.

11 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Chana.


14 Q. Who was the -- the commander of the operation that you'd gone

15 for?

16 A. The main commander of the operation was Mr. Sefer Halilovic, that

17 is, of Operation Neretva.

18 Q. Now, you said you went to Grabovica. Can you tell me, when you

19 went there, what happened.

20 A. When we set out with trucks, nothing actually happened

21 immediately. We reached this village and were given some blankets. We

22 were received by the locals there, the civilians, who took us in as if we

23 were they're own family. And that's how we spent the entire day, until

24 the afternoon on the 9th.

25 Q. Other than the civilians -- and what ethnicity were these

Page 15

1 civilians from?

2 A. The civilians we were put up with were of Croat ethnicity.

3 Q. Who else did you see?

4 A. There were Muslim refugees in a house in this village. There

5 were four of them, I believe. I can't say exactly. Or rather -- yes, I'm

6 certain that there were four of them and they -- they were refugees and

7 they were received by the local Croats there, who shared their home with

8 them.

9 Q. Were there any other troops present when you arrived in

10 Grabovica?

11 A. There were Solakovic's 2nd Independent Battalion men. There were

12 Cedo's Wolves, Zuka's troops, and a bit further on there were those from

13 the Handzar Division.

14 Q. Yes. And where did you find accommodation?

15 A. I was put up in an abandoned house that didn't have a roof at the

16 time, nor does it still have one today. Some of the houses were

17 reconstructed, but this one is still vacant. And at the time, it was

18 abandoned. It was pretty much neglected.

19 Q. Now, Witness I'm going to show you --

20 MS. CHANA: And I'm going to show him P4, Your Honour. There'll

21 be a photograph which will come up on the screen.

22 Q. Can you see the photograph?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. CHANA: I'd like him -- the witness to mark certain houses,

25 Your Honour. So if I can have a copy presented to him. Thank you.

Page 16

1 Q. Witness, what I would like you now to do is put a circle around

2 the house where you were accommodated and put a "1" on top of that circle,

3 please.

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. And can you tell us, please, Witness, who else was accommodated

6 in this house with you.

7 A. In this particular house, there was me, Arnautovic Erdin, Malco

8 Rovcanin, and Ramiz Delalic spent one night in the house. That was when

9 the children fled the village prior to the massacre.

10 Q. Now, I would like you to look at this photograph again, if you

11 would, please, and tell me the houses of the other -- some other soldiers

12 that you know and units which were billeted. Can you locate us -- tell me

13 what other houses that you recall and who was billeted in these houses?

14 If you'd put -- give me the name first. Then you can circle it, and then

15 put a "2".

16 A. In this house, the 2nd Independent Battalion was put up, Adnan

17 Solakovic, who was the commander of the 2nd Independent Battalion.

18 In this particular house, there were Hasid Basovic, Fikret

19 Kraljevic, Hota Mustafa.

20 Q. Any other house?

21 A. There was a house here, but you can't really see it now, here.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Number 4. That's where Sulejman Lujinovic was put up and a man

24 by the name of Crni. I don't know his last name. And Nedzad Mehanovic,

25 who actually went around the village. Mahovljak [phoen] slept in this

Page 17

1 particular house along with his fellow fighters.

2 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I'm not sure that the markings are quite

3 clear. If we could make sure that the 1, 2, 3, 4 --

4 Q. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Any other house that you recognise there?

7 A. There was another house here. That's where the engineers slept,

8 members of the engineering unit.

9 Q. And that would be 6?

10 A. 6. And there were these houses where the local residents lived,

11 civilians. And there was another house above the railway track.

12 Q. And all these houses that you've marked, who -- who was residing

13 in them?

14 A. There were Croats living in all these houses. They were the

15 local residents there. Before that, there were JNA units that had

16 liberated the village, but that was a couple of months earlier.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MS. CHANA: I would like to tender this, Your Honour. That would

19 be ...?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection to that, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit P184.

23 MS. CHANA: Thank you.

24 Q. So what did you do that -- after you went into that house?

25 A. When I came to the house, all those who were with me - and I've

Page 18

1 enumerated them - who slept with me in the house, weren't there. I was

2 alone. I was cleaning the house all day long so that we could have a

3 place to sleep.

4 Q. Yes. And after cleaning this house, what did you do?

5 A. I went over to the house just across from my house - not below

6 the road - where we had a coffee. I was there with the local residents

7 and with my fellow fighters.

8 Q. And whose house was it that you went to?

9 A. A man lived in this house, an elderly man, who was suffering from

10 this illness. I don't know how you call it, when you have the shakes.

11 Q. And who else was in that house, other than this old man?

12 A. There were those Muslim refugees, a man, his wife, and two

13 children, who had -- who were some 12 or 13 years of age. Then there was

14 Mustafa, Fikret Kraljevic, Nevzet Sabanovic. We were actually all of us

15 there. We were sitting at a table having coffee and having a laugh.

16 Q. What did you do after -- what did you do at this house, other

17 than sit around the table and have a laugh?

18 A. Since we didn't have good quality food those days, the local

19 resident offered some lamb or -- they actually gave us their sheep so that

20 we could have something to eat that day.

21 Q. And then what did you do after you'd finished this barbecue?

22 A. I went back to the house, where I continued cleaning because it

23 was in a very bad state.

24 Q. Where did you sleep at night?

25 A. Erdin Arnautovic slept outdoors, because we spent more time

Page 19

1 outdoors than indoors. It was very dirty inside and the smell was

2 terrible. All the other troops, soldiers, slept in the other houses,

3 where they had a fair kind of accommodation, given the circumstances.

4 Q. Did you hear anything at night?

5 A. Nothing was happening during the night. There were no actions,

6 murders, or crimes. The entire night between the 8th and the 9th

7 September was a very peaceful one.

8 Q. What happened the next day? What did you do in the morning?

9 A. The next day, we woke, had a cup of coffee, sat together, talked,

10 socialised, until midday, noon. At that point, Vehbija Karic, Sefer

11 Halilovic, Zuka, and other commanders from the Supreme Command, who were

12 there, came. They lined up all the units that were there and the units

13 were lined up just in front of the house where I slept in, because there

14 was a plain, a plateau there where everybody could be lined up.

15 Q. Now, I just want to take you through this very slowly, if you --

16 if you please, Witness, would indulge me. You said Vehbija Karic, Sefer

17 Halilovic, and Zuka came, and Ramiz Delalic. Is that your testimony? Are

18 these the four people?

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: He did not say Ramiz Delalic.

22 MS. CHANA: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I thought he had --

23 Q. Was Ramiz Delalic there?

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, just a moment. Just a moment.

25 Your Honour, it's -- it's really basic to have to make this

Page 20

1 submission. I apologise for having to make it. But you can see I have to

2 make it. Suggesting to the witness the answer that he should be giving by

3 a leading question is a very grave evil in a case like this. It's not

4 just a slip or a mistake. It can't be done. It can't be allowed.

5 Your Honours, I don't wish to be objecting every 30 seconds to

6 that sort of thing. It shouldn't happen, and I object to it. I don't

7 know what else I can do except object on a case-by-case basis. But I ask

8 Your Honour to have regard to what looks like a pattern of leading, and I

9 do object.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Ms. Chana, we came to the most important part

11 of evidence. So just be careful about the leading questions.

12 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I thought he had said. I hadn't

13 looked at transcript. Yes, I take on board what counsel's objection is.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Just be cautious.

15 MS. CHANA: Yes.

16 Q. Can you please tell us, Witness, who came, the names of all the

17 people you saw were coming, one by one, please.

18 A. Sefer Halilovic, Vehbija Karic, Zulfikar Alispago. Ramiz Delalic

19 wasn't there because he came in afterwards when the children were found.

20 I highlighted this because there were some difficulties with the gentleman

21 I was giving a statement to, to this man Nikolai. I don't know what was

22 going on there. Because he came on after all those murders and events had

23 taken place. All those incidents in Grabovica took place outside his

24 presence. He came only when those children were brought in.

25 There were other commanders there who were sitting on a curb

Page 21

1 outside this house that I was sleeping in. They were seated on this curb.

2 Sefer was seated on a small chair. The rest were sitting on this concrete

3 slab or whatever or were squatted down.

4 The commanders of the units called on all of their soldiers to

5 show up. There were some 100 to 150 men there. And then there was talk

6 about what this offensive was to look like. This was the Operation

7 Neretva to lift the blockade of Mostar. Mr. Sefer Halilovic was the one

8 speaking.

9 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, can I interrupt you? As I -- I'd like to

10 take this slowly. And if you would be so kind as to answer my questions

11 and all of this will come out in the fullness of time.

12 Now, can you tell me which other commanders were there other than

13 the three that you have mentioned. You said six other commanders. Who

14 were they? Do you know them?

15 A. There was Salko Gusic. And then there were Cedo's Wolves. I

16 don't know what his name was. There was Handzar's Division. I don't know

17 what the commander's name was. I don't know what their names were. I

18 think that Cedo's Wolves were commanded by Mr. Sadic. I believe that was

19 his last name.

20 Q. And had you known Vehbija Karic before you saw him that day?

21 A. I remember Vehbija Karic very well from the media prior to the

22 outbreak of the aggression on Bosnia and Herzegovina. When the cannons

23 were positioned above Sarajevo, he was an artillery man. And then Vehbija

24 Karic said when asked why the guns were positioned, he said, "Because of

25 the Defence of the town." I know him from the town as the commander of

Page 22

1 the artillery there. Although, this was not much of an artillery, to tell

2 you the truth.

3 Q. Other than on the media, had you ever seen him before yourself?

4 A. Yes. I used to see him in the different staffs when he would

5 come to tour different units.

6 Q. And how did these people come?

7 A. These people were brought in in jeeps. And I mean to Grabovica.

8 They were brought in in jeeps from the direction of Jablanica. I don't

9 know where they set out from.

10 Q. Who was driving the jeeps?

11 A. Sefer's vehicle was driven by a man that I knew very well. His

12 name was Mesko -- or rather, his nickname was Mesko. I don't know his

13 real name. The other jeep was driven by Dino.

14 Q. Yes. I'd like to show you P7, Witness. This is a photograph

15 which you will see.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, just before that's done. I wonder if

17 my friend would like to clarify the identity of this person who's called

18 Dino here. Because we have had a Dino who gave evidence.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Edin Arnautovic, also known as

21 Dino.


23 Q. Could you look at the photograph, please, P7. Did you on that

24 particular photograph circle where it was that this meeting that you say

25 was held, where the commanders came.

Page 23

1 A. First of all, there -- this forest or this grove of trees wasn't

2 there at the time. There was just this plain.

3 The meeting of the commanders took place on this sidewalk or

4 slab, right here. That's where all these commanders were seated. And the

5 army was here, where I make the circle, where there are no trees. That's

6 where Sefer, Vehbija Karic, Zuka, Gusic, and all the other commanders who

7 were there were seated. Sefer was here, at this angle.

8 When they arrived, they greeted all the soldiers, asked how they

9 had been accommodated, and then started talking about the offensive

10 Neretva.

11 Q. Yes. Witness, I would like to first finish with the photograph,

12 please.

13 MS. CHANA: Can I please tender this, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I don't have any objection, but I'm

16 not sure if the copy I -- whether the witness put any numbers on -- the

17 drawing stopped on our copy at a fairly early stage in the narrative. And

18 I'm not sure. The witness seemed to be indicating something on the

19 picture which hasn't appeared on ours. I'm just not sure that we've got

20 the full -- the same thing that the Prosecutor has gone.

21 I'm told by the court deputy that I've got what the Prosecutor

22 has got. I have no objection to it being tendered.


24 Q. Just to clarify, witness, the circle that you've drawn, is that

25 where the meeting was held, or is there anywhere else that you want to

Page 24

1 identify on this photograph?

2 A. I just want to specify that this grove of trees was not there at

3 the time. These photographs were taken obviously in the late summer, when

4 the trees are already full of leaves. There was just a plain there some

5 50 metres long and 10 metres wide where the entire troops were. I've

6 circled the trees as -- marking it as an area where the troops were.

7 Q. Yes. That's quite clear that, the trees weren't there, so there

8 would be a plain, yes.

9 MS. CHANA: I'd like to tender this one, if there's no objection,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Prosecution Exhibit P185.

13 JUDGE LIU: It is admitted into the evidence.


15 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to cast your mind back. And when

16 these commanders came, who was there? When they first came, who was there

17 in that area that you have just indicated to the Court?

18 A. That's where I, Nevzet Sabanovic, and some other soldiers were.

19 We were sitting down and preparing lunch.

20 Q. So when they first came, how many soldiers were present,

21 including yourself?

22 A. There were five or six of us. I can't recall all the names.

23 Q. What did you do when they first came?

24 A. We were making lunch and there was a small cottage nearby where I

25 took some honey from. We greeted all the commanders, shook hands with

Page 25

1 Sefer Halilovic and all the others, and they came and sat down on this

2 slab of concrete outside this house. I offered them some honey and they

3 took some. They had their own conversation waiting for the soldiers to

4 gather.

5 Q. And then which soldiers came?

6 A. All the units that were there, Cedo's Wolves, the 2nd Independent

7 Battalion, Handzar's Division, Zuka's men, and all the others. In all,

8 there were 100 to 150 soldiers.

9 Q. Can you please now tell us what happened after all these soldiers

10 gathered. But before you do that, I would like to ask you -- no, in fact,

11 you have actually answered that. Yes, can you tell us what exactly

12 happened when all the soldiers congregated. Who spoke first?

13 A. When all the soldiers assembled, Sefer Halilovic spoke first, as

14 commander of the operation, and he made it quite clear to all of us, the

15 soldiers there, that he was commander of the Operation Neretva, that this

16 was to be a very difficult battle to lift the siege of Mostar, that it was

17 going to last for who knows how long, and that we would not return until

18 Mostar had been liberated at any cost, so that we were going to stay there

19 until we basically capture Mostar.

20 Q. Yes. And what was the reaction of the soldiers to this speech of

21 Sefer Halilovic?

22 A. The soldiers were silent. They were being addressed by the

23 commander of the army, the person in charge of the operation. So they

24 listened to him in silence. There might have been some commotion, but

25 nobody made any comments in relation to that. The soldiers held him in

Page 26

1 high esteem and nobody commented on it

2 Q. What happened? Who was the next to speak?

3 A. Mr. Vehbija Karic was the next one to speak. He was seated next

4 to Sefer. When they had finished explaining the operation and told us

5 that we were to leave the following evening, then Vehbija Karic enquired

6 after our accommodation, whether everything was in order in the village,

7 and a soldier spoke out and said that not everything was going well, that

8 they had some criticism to level at the civilians there, and that's where

9 Vehbija Karic -- when Vehbija Karic said, "Well, then just let's execute

10 them or summarily throw them into the river."

11 Q. Now, Witness, I'd like you to really go back on this and try to

12 recall, if you will, the exact words spoken by Vehbija Karic, if you can

13 remember.

14 A. Vehbija Karic's words were, "Under summary procedure, throw them

15 all into the river." Now, I don't know why, what the reason for that was.

16 Then Sefer afterwards said, "Are you crazy?" But Vehbija Karic just shook

17 his head and said, "This is what had taken place in Ahmici, what had

18 happened to us in Ahmici.

19 Q. And who was the soldier who actually complained about the

20 accommodation?

21 A. I don't know his name. I know that he was a soldier, but I don't

22 know anything specific.

23 Q. And who was he complaining about?

24 A. I think that they -- these people were sick in their heads.

25 They -- because these civilians there, the local residents, were very

Page 27

1 accommodating. Or maybe some of those people there had lost a member of

2 their family and were perhaps seeking revenge.

3 Q. So when Karic said those words, who was he referring to?

4 A. He was referring to the Croatian civilians, not to the soldiers

5 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. And Halilovic made the remark -- could you say again what the

7 remark was so I'm not accused of putting words in your mouth.

8 A. Mr. Halilovic said, "Are you in your right mind?" And he made a

9 gesture with his head. And then Vehbija said, "Well, the same thing

10 happened to us in Ahmici." By this he clarified that this order was

11 referring to the Croatian civilians who were there, the elderly civilians,

12 the women, and the children.

13 Q. Did Sefer Halilovic respond to this?

14 A. As I said, he just made a gesture with his head and said, "Are

15 you in your right mind?" That's all he did.

16 Q. Did the soldiers have any reaction to this remark?

17 A. Nobody said anything. They just wondered whether he was in his

18 right mind or not. I found it hard to understand why he had said that. I

19 mean, Vehbija Karic.

20 Q. How did you yourself personally take such a remark?

21 A. I thought it was a joke. I couldn't take it seriously. Because

22 these were just ordinary civilians. They were not soldiers. This was not

23 combat. And civilians shouldn't be killed if not in combat, not elderly

24 men, and women and children.

25 Q. What happened after this meeting?

Page 28

1 A. After this meeting, the gentlemen got up and went off in the

2 direction of Jablanica. The soldiers milled about talking until the first

3 twilight, until dusk began to fall. It was about 6.00 when the first

4 murder happened in a house, in the house of Mr. Pero Maric. I was an

5 eyewitness to that. I was sitting there and I saw a man arrive, a

6 soldier. He went into the house and killed Mr. Pero Maric. His wife

7 started screaming, and then he killed his wife too.

8 Q. Who else was in this house when this -- this happened?

9 A. Mr. Nihad Vlahovljak was billeted in that house with his fellow

10 fighters.

11 Q. Do you know the names of any others who were present?

12 A. It was his men. They were from another unit. I wasn't familiar

13 with that unit. I didn't know them personally. Just by sight. I can't

14 really recall precisely. All I know is that Nihad Vlahovljak was the

15 commander of that unit.

16 Q. And how many soldiers were present in that house with Mr. and

17 Mrs. Maric?

18 A. About 10 men, 6 to 10 men. We were sitting around having coffee.

19 Q. And this soldier, do you know his name, who came in, the one who

20 shot?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Can you tell the Court, please: When he walked in, how much time

23 had elapsed before he did the shooting?

24 A. About 20 seconds.

25 Q. So who did he shoot first?

Page 29

1 A. First he killed the gentleman, Mr. Pero Maric. And then his wife

2 started screaming. She was ill. She started yelling, "What's going on?

3 What's happening?" He went to the next room, and he killed her as well.

4 Q. And where was Pero Maric shot?

5 A. In his house.

6 Q. Where in his house?

7 A. In the corridor.

8 Q. And the wife was shot where?

9 A. In the room.

10 Q. What did -- what was the soldier's reaction -- soldiers'

11 reaction, who were in the house.

12 A. When this soldier left the house with his automatic rifle, Nihad

13 said, "What's going on? Are you crazy?" And he said something

14 like, "Don't say anything or I might kill you too."

15 Q. What did you do yourself?

16 A. Nothing. I kept quiet. The man was a fool. He wasn't in his

17 right mind. He must have been crazy.

18 Q. Did he leave straight after the shooting?

19 A. Yes, after the -- what they said, he turned round and left.

20 Q. What did you do next?

21 A. I stayed there for another few minutes and then I returned to the

22 house where I was accommodated.

23 Q. And what did you do at this house and what time was it when you

24 went back?

25 A. Well, it was twilight, about 7.00. And from there, I went to

Page 30

1 where Sulejman Lujinovic was. We sat and talked for a while, commenting

2 on all these events. And then I went home -- or rather, to the house in

3 which I was billeted, and I went to sleep.

4 Q. What happened the next day?

5 A. On the next day, when I got up, it was in the morning, 8.00 or

6 9.00. I'm not sure. And I saw next to the road there were corpses and

7 there was blood. All night this crime had been going on, these murders,

8 which no one was able to prevent -- or rather, nobody paid attention. All

9 those commanders who had been there had done nothing to prevent that crime

10 from happening.

11 Q. Do you know who committed the crimes?

12 A. I know. It was the soldiers and two men confessed and have been

13 tried in Sarajevo. They were put on trial for four murders. I don't know

14 how many civilians were killed altogether.

15 Q. Which soldiers committed these crimes?

16 A. Mustafa Hota and this other gentleman, whom I don't know. I

17 don't know his name even.

18 Q. Any other soldiers that you know?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Now, you said you saw dead bodies lying around. Can you tell us

21 how many?

22 A. Across from my house, between the house where I slept and the

23 Independent 2nd Battalion, there was one corpse and there were traces of

24 blood along the path, along the right bank of the Neretva. That's where

25 the corpses were.

Page 31

1 Q. What did you do?

2 A. Nothing. I don't know what I could have done.

3 Q. Did something else happen that day?

4 A. On that day, the last murder took place. We were sitting there.

5 And at about 3.00 p.m. the last murder happened, when Mr. Zulfikar

6 Alispago, also known as Zuka, the commander of the unit in Jablanica,

7 arrived with his men and set up a checkpoint in front of the houses. He

8 put up two checkpoints: One at the entry to Grabovica and the other one

9 at the exit. And he said that no one was to leave Grabovica, no soldier,

10 without his approval. And he collected all those corpses that were by the

11 roadside, put them on a truck, and drove them off somewhere. I don't know

12 where.

13 Q. What time did Zuka come with his men?

14 A. Maybe it was around 3.00 in the afternoon.

15 Q. And how many men did he come with and how did he come?

16 A. He came by truck. It was some sort of truck. Not a very big

17 one. And there were two soldiers manning each checkpoint. There were his

18 men guarding those checkpoints so that no one could leave Grabovica and no

19 one could find out about the crime. He collected all the corpses and

20 drove them off somewhere. How many men exactly Zuka had with him, I don't

21 know.

22 Q. Did anybody else come that day?

23 A. Ramiz Delalic came with two children. After Zuka, he brought two

24 children along. Their parents had been killed, their mother, father,

25 grandmother, grandfather, and little sister. And they were found on the

Page 32

1 road to Jablanica. Delalic Ramiz brought them with him to Grabovica. He

2 lined up all the men from our unit, took out his pistol from its sheathe,

3 and told the children to identify the persons who had murdered their

4 parents. And he said that he would shoot the soldier who had committed

5 the crime if the children identified him. But there were some soldiers

6 absent from the line-up. There were several men who weren't there. The

7 children went from soldier to soldier, looked into their eyes, and in the

8 end they did not identify the perpetrators, the murderers of their

9 parents.

10 Q. Did Celo arrive before Zuka or after Zuka? Who came first?

11 A. Celo arrived after Zuka.

12 Q. Were there any bodies in Grabovica at this time?

13 A. No. Zuka collected all the bodies.

14 Q. What --

15 A. I don't know. Perhaps there may have been something along the

16 bank of the Neretva. I don't know how many civilians were killed.

17 Q. And how many bodies did you yourself personally see on that day?

18 Can you just give me a sense of numbers, please.

19 A. Five or six.

20 Q. And what happened to these checkpoints after Zuka's men had taken

21 the bodies? Did they remain or were they taken away?

22 A. That night we set out into action, and the checkpoints in

23 Grabovica remained at the entry and exit. It wasn't on the M17, the main

24 road, but on the side road leading to Grabovica. These checkpoints

25 remained, and that night we went into action and we didn't go back to

Page 33

1 Grabovica any more.

2 Q. Tell me, how many soldiers were lined up by Celo?

3 A. Our unit, the entire brigade. I think 50 or 60 of us from the

4 whole brigade set out, and maybe there were 45 of us. Some people were

5 missing. I can't be precise, but some were absent.

6 Q. When you say "brigade," can you tell me, which brigade, please?

7 A. I mean the 9th Motorised Brigade.

8 Q. Were you in this line-up?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You stated to the Court that there was no one identified by these

11 two young boys. Do you know the reason why?

12 A. Well, because the perpetrators weren't there, certainly.

13 Q. Do you know that yourself, that the perpetrators were not there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How --

16 A. Because the children didn't identify them, which means that they

17 weren't there.

18 Q. Did you yourself know that the perpetrators weren't there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So what happened after that?

21 A. After that, Celo put the children in a car, and with Erdin

22 Arnautovic he drove off to Jablanica, where the children were taken. And

23 what happened to them afterwards, I don't know. All that I know is that

24 they're still alive. If someone from our unit headed by Ramiz Delalic, or

25 Celo, wanted to do this, we would have killed those two children on the

Page 34

1 spot. Ramiz Delalic certainly saved those children's lives. Because I'm

2 sure there are witnesses who will come to testify here and who will say

3 that there was an order that these two children be killed. I'm not going

4 to talk about it, but this witness will certainly tell you that. He's a

5 commander.

6 Q. But what about you personally? Did you stay on in Grabovica, or

7 did you leave at some point?

8 A. We stayed in Grabovica for another two hours or so. Celo came

9 back after that. The unit was lined up. And at first dusk we set out

10 towards the village of Dreznica. We had to go under cover of darkness

11 because on the M17 there was firing from some elevation. I don't know.

12 So we had to go under cover of night, and we went to the village of

13 Dreznica.

14 Q. And then after that, you -- you went -- where did you go?

15 A. We went to Dreznica. We stayed there until 10.00. And then

16 there was an attack on an elevation which was called Antena, I think, in

17 the direction of the village of Vrdi or something like that, in

18 Herzegovina.

19 Q. Were you ever questioned about these Grabovica murders at any

20 time?

21 A. On my return from Herzegovina to Sarajevo - this was about a

22 month or a month and a half later - we were attacked. There was an

23 operation called Trebevic, and Mr. Sefer Halilovic was also put under

24 house arrest. On the 26th of October, they arrested us and detained us in

25 the central prison in Sarajevo. I was in the central prison for four and

Page 35

1 a half or five months, and I was questioned about the crime in Grabovica

2 on only one occasion. During that time, the investigator was

3 Judge Spoljaric. After that, I wasn't asked anything else, until 1998,

4 when I got a call from Mr. Nikolai in the KNT barracks in Sarajevo.

5 Q. Now, I want to take you back to Sarajevo, if I may. When you

6 were there, what were your duties, in 1993? When you were in Sarajevo,

7 what were you doing?

8 A. I was just an ordinary private in the brigade. And I went into

9 action. There would be three or four actions a day. An assault here, an

10 assault there. We were all of us fighting to protect our homes. Nothing

11 else.

12 Q. What were you doing in Sarajevo itself? Did you have any role in

13 Sarajevo around the -- when the siege was going on?

14 A. No, no role.

15 Q. Was it you and your brigade, or just you?

16 A. I'm referring to myself.

17 Q. Were you in the -- around Sarajevo, were you doing -- were some

18 of your tasks there?

19 A. No. It was only in our area of responsibility, on our line from

20 Mrkovic to Poljine. Nowhere else.

21 Q. Whose line was it, when you say "our line"?

22 A. It was the area of responsibility of our brigade, the 9th

23 Motorised Brigade.

24 Q. Were you aware at any time whether any troops of your brigade

25 were committing any crime there is?

Page 36

1 A. As for our brigade, in the entire area of responsibility there

2 were no crimes that I know of, no murders of civilians, no murders of

3 people of different ethnicities in Sarajevo itself.

4 Q. Anywhere else?

5 A. I don't know. Believe me. When we were arrested in 1993, I

6 heard about a place called Kazani, but I know about that only through the

7 media. There were trials of people who committed those crimes and who are

8 still in prison in Sarajevo today.

9 Q. What was the reputation of the 9th Brigade, if you know?

10 A. [No audible response]

11 Q. I didn't hear the answer.

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. All right. Can I now take you to May 1998, please. And if you

14 could tell the -- the Court what happened on that date.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it's not permissible for prior

17 consistent statements or the like to be led. Now, I'm not sure what my

18 learned friend has in mind here, but unless it's something directly

19 relevant and admissible in the hands of the Prosecutor, then I want to

20 make it clear that I'm going to object to it.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well --

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, it doesn't seem hopeful.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, from the question, I could not see the

24 directions of the Prosecution, so I will allow the Prosecution to go on

25 for a while.

Page 37

1 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Do you remember that date? And what were you doing around that

3 time, May 1998?

4 A. This refers to the statement I made to Mr. Nikolai. He was

5 acting on behalf of the ICTY. At least, that's what he said.

6 Q. May I interrupt, Witness. I'm not talking about the statement of

7 Nikolai. I'm telling you: What were you doing around May 1998? If you

8 can answer that first, please.

9 A. In May 1998?

10 Q. Where were you working?

11 A. I can't remember precisely. In May 1998? You mean that I met

12 Mr. Vehbija Karic, who commented on the statement I made and said, "How

13 can you say something like this?"

14 Q. What happened? Can you tell us? Do you remember that time?

15 A. I wasn't working then. I was sitting in a cafe called Park, near

16 a department store. I was there with some friends of mine having coffee,

17 and Mr. Vehbija Karic came along. He approached me and he said, "Aren't

18 you ashamed making statements like that? How can you say something like

19 that?", referring to what he said in Grabovica. He said there might be

20 consequences of some sort. He laughed and turned and left.

21 Q. What statement was he referring to, Mr. Karic?

22 A. The statement, I'm sure, that I gave to the Ministry of the

23 Interior in Sarajevo in 1993. We made statements in CSB, in some

24 newspapers. The media would come. This newspaper, that newspaper, always

25 asking for statements about Grabovica.

Page 38

1 Q. In your view, all the statements that you've said you've made,

2 including to the press, did you tell the same story?


4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, again, you can't have a question

5 like this seeking to confirm. It's a matter for cross-examination to

6 raise previous statements.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, let us clear the answer of this witness. Then

8 you could cross-examine that.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. I --

10 JUDGE LIU: Because --

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. As the Court pleases. Yes.


13 Q. Yes. Witness, can you tell -- give me the answer. Have they

14 been consistent? Have you told the same story?

15 A. Yes, I always told the same story. The only discrepancy that

16 turned up was in the statement that Mr. Nikolai took, because he didn't

17 let us read it or anything. He worked on a laptop and he said he was

18 sending it directly to The Hague Tribunal and there was nothing to sign.

19 And there was even no interpreter present, at least very little.

20 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, that would be my examination-in-chief

21 from this witness.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

23 And I think it is time for us to have a break, and we'll resume

24 at 11.00. After that, there will be some cross-examination.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

Page 39

1 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination?

3 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

6 Q. (redacted).

7 Witness, I want to put something to you. You're one of the

8 killers, aren't you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You were right there when the killing took place; correct?

11 A. [No interpretation]

12 Q. You had a firearm --

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness's

14 answer.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


17 Q. You discharged that firearm on a number of occasions during your

18 stay down there in Grabovica, didn't you?

19 A. No. I fired only during the offensive, in action. Outside

20 Grabovica, in the only operation that took place at the time, that is, the

21 Operation Neretva.

22 Q. For many years, you told a plainly dishonest story to conceal

23 your proximity to the killings and in particular to the killing of Pero

24 Maric; do you agree with that?

25 A. I haven't understood your question.

Page 40

1 Q. In statement after statement, in account after account, you never

2 did admit that you were right there when Pero Maric was shot; is that the

3 fact?

4 A. Let me tell you one thing, first of all --

5 Q. Answer my question, first of all. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. First of all, your client, the then-commander of the

7 Operation Neretva, and also commander of the Operation Trebevic, the

8 distinguished commander had also covered up for the murders for a number

9 of years without saying who the perpetrators were and why these crimes had

10 been committed in order for light to be shed onto these crimes in the past

11 couple of years.

12 Q. The answer to my question is yes, you've lied repeatedly

13 concerning your direct presence at the shooting of Pero Maric; is that

14 true? Or not?

15 A. I didn't lie. This was our order that we weren't supposed to say

16 anything to anyone. You should not have put this question to me but,

17 rather, to the authorities in Sarajevo, who had placed us under arrest on

18 the 26th of October, 1993. And this is the question that you should put

19 to these people to see what the reasons were for the cover-up, why the

20 truth about these events had been covered up for so long.

21 Q. You always knew in your own mind that you were right at hand when

22 Pero Maric was shot; correct? You always knew that, because that was

23 true; correct?

24 A. Yes, I always knew that. But we weren't allowed to say anything

25 about it because such were our orders. When we were in the prison, we

Page 41

1 were told that we were not supposed to say anything further on this

2 matter. We were invoked some articles to the effect that we might incur a

3 life sentence or even a death penalty. This was something that came from

4 the Supreme Command and the court.

5 Q. You came -- I'm sorry, in what sense did that come from the

6 court, please, (redacted)

7 A. From the court. Because we were first interrogated and then all

8 the interrogations were put a stop to. This probably had come from the

9 Supreme Command, from someone who must have been more powerful than the

10 court and whose -- in whose interest it was to cover up the truth to this

11 very day.

12 Q. Yes. And just in terms of that cover-up - and I won't spend much

13 time on this now - but you say that was communicated to you after your

14 arrest on the 26th of October, 1993 in the course of Operation Trebevic;

15 is that right?

16 A. This was halfway through the sentence that I was serving. That

17 was those four and a half to five months, when my proceedings were

18 suddenly drawn to a close. And this is something that has been documented

19 in the court.

20 Q. Certainly. You came to know within the last couple of months

21 that Enes Sakrak was coming here to give evidence that he was present when

22 Pero Maric was shot; is that correct?

23 A. First of all, I don't know the man.

24 Q. And what I put to you is this: You realised then that your lies

25 were going to come unstuck and be revealed; is that correct?

Page 42

1 A. No, I'm not lying. I'm telling the truth.

2 Q. You knew then that an eyewitness to the shooting of Pero Maric

3 was capable of putting you, (redacted) correct?

4 A. How do you mean right there?

5 Q. What I mean is that you --

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I just indicate now that there

8 may need to be some redaction. I've now understood the note that I was

9 given, so my apologies for (redacted)

10 Q. What I'm putting to you -- sorry, Witness, what I'm

11 putting to you is this: That you came to know very well that your

12 presence at the shooting of Pero Maric was about to come out in this

13 Tribunal. You came to know that, didn't you?

14 A. I've said that already. I was not empowered to say anything

15 about that because of the pressure and the threats in Sarajevo. Even

16 today I fear my return into the town because threats have been levelled at

17 me. Even during my stay here in The Hague, I received messages from my

18 relatives and my brother to the effect that there are threats against me.

19 And tomorrow I might not even be alive. You here defend a person who

20 potentially knew of these crimes, murders. And now the question remains

21 as to why he had never launched an investigation into what was happening

22 in Grabovica. I was just a private, a common soldier, and he held the

23 rank of a general in the army. He was then the Chief of the Main Staff,

24 because at the time there still wasn't the function of a commander. Why

25 didn't he himself show up and report these crimes? You are calling upon

Page 43

1 me, a mortal, a private, that I should have done something whilst it was

2 not in my power.

3 Q. Well, don't -- don't misunderstand what's being put to you,

4 Mr. Sakrak -- Mr. -- sorry, Mr. -- Witness D. I'm not putting that to you

5 at all. What I'm putting to you is that you're a murderer. Do you

6 understand that that's what's being put to you?

7 A. I'm not a murderer.

8 Q. And then for the first time when you spoke to the learned

9 Prosecutor here after arriving in The Hague, you revealed the truth or

10 part of the truth, anyway, that you were present at the shooting of Pero

11 Maric and that you did see several bodies in the village. Do you agree

12 with that?

13 A. Yes. I've said that here because at the time over there I didn't

14 have the occasion to nor the person whom I was able to reveal this to.

15 Because that's the way the state functioned at the time. If you had

16 money, you were able to do whatever you wanted; if you didn't, you

17 couldn't. All these events could have been brought to light in Sarajevo

18 earlier on without having it to come to this stage where we have to tell

19 the story in front of this Trial Chamber.

20 Q. You told the Prosecutor here that you've received threats even

21 since you've been in The Hague.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you tell -- which Prosecutor did you tell that to?

24 A. I've told that to the gentleman in charge of security for

25 witnesses here. I don't know what their title is. I told them so, and

Page 44

1 they were there when I was called to answer a phone call. And then a

2 security person came here, a person in charge of security. I don't know

3 his name. And I spoke to him yesterday in my room.

4 Q. And you've continued to allege, I take it, that threats are being

5 made to your family; is that the situation?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you go to the police in Sarajevo about these threats?

8 A. No, I didn't. I had no reason to. In view of what the situation

9 with the police is, it doesn't really make any difference whether you

10 report something like that or not.

11 Q. Very well. And what I put to you is that you will blame anyone

12 else and shift the blame onto anyone else in the hope that your own guilt

13 is never revealed. Do you agree with that?

14 A. Had I been guilty of committing a crime or anything in that sense

15 in relation to Grabovica, I would admit that now I -- and say that I

16 committed this -- or, rather, crime to relieve myself of the burden, and I

17 believe that any person who has conscience would do something like that,

18 because a person committing such an act must be sick in his mind.

19 Q. So who are the people who committed these crimes, (redacted)

20 What are their names?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Didn't you say to Ms. Chana here in the course of proofing the

23 following: "I have myself talked to these soldiers who did kill and asked

24 how they could do this. They all talked about it as if they had spilt a

25 glass of water. No remorse was displayed. I can't tell the names of

Page 45

1 these soldiers, as I am frightened of the consequences." Now, that's what

2 you told Ms. Chana just a couple of days ago, isn't it, that you knew --

3 that you couldn't tell their names because you're frightened of the

4 consequences? Isn't that right?

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Don't worry about the consequences. Tell us the names,

7 please.

8 A. No.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: I would ask that we move into private session.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 46











11 Page 46 redacted. Private session.















Page 47

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well.

14 Q. You mentioned -- I'll just repeat the question because we're now

15 back in the open session. You mentioned earlier on a person in Sarajevo

16 who had a document in their possession, an order, which they were going to

17 bring to court here. Who is that person?

18 A. He is in possession of an order in relation to the Operation

19 Neretva.

20 Q. Thank you. What's his name?

21 A. All the commanders of the brigades involved are in possession of

22 the order that they had received from Sefer Halilovic. All of the

23 commanders of the units involved in the Operation Neretva.

24 Q. Who is the person you referred to in your evidence?

25 A. Ramiz Delalic is one of those who has the order.

Page 48

1 Q. And you know that Ramiz Delalic is coming to give evidence here

2 with that order because you've been speaking about these proceedings with

3 him, haven't you?

4 A. No, we didn't talk, but I know given the proceedings so far that

5 he is going to be called here as a witness and bring all the documents he

6 has with him. He even has a tape, a recording, that originated from some

7 people who asked of me to change my statement to say that Sefer Halilovic

8 was not a commander of the operation.

9 Q. How do you know he's got such a tape?

10 A. It's not a videotape. It's an audiotape.

11 Q. How do you know he's got it?

12 A. Because in the presence of the lawyer, Azem Mehonjic, he called

13 me and asked that I only tell the truth and nothing but the truth.

14 Q. Well, are you saying that you've spoken to Mr. Delalic about

15 these proceedings or not?

16 A. We didn't talk about the trial. He merely told me to say the

17 things as they were, so just to tell the truth.

18 Q. And as to this tape, have you told the Prosecution about the

19 existence of this?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Which person did you tell about this?

22 A. I told someone here in The Hague.

23 Q. Who was it?

24 A. Who? It was during the proofing that I told Mr. Brun, because I

25 asked him whether I could bring money as evidence for my testimony and he

Page 49

1 said that this was not a good idea.

2 Q. Did you tell any of the people present in court today during the

3 course of your proofing notes, (redacted)

4 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

5 Q. Well, you've had a proofing -- in fact, you've had three proofing

6 sessions with you, have you not, with Ms. Chana who's present here and led

7 you in your evidence in chief; is that right?

8 A. No, that's not right.

9 Q. Well, have you had two sessions with her?

10 A. It's not right. It's not true that I had three preparations.

11 I've had one. I arrived on the 15th. I had two proofing sessions. One

12 lasted several hours, and the second one was not even a proofing session

13 but it had to do with the threats against me prior to my arrival here from

14 Sarajevo.

15 Q. And did you tell --

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, Mr. Morrissey, I have to warn you

17 at this stage that this witness is a protected witness.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, this -- letting out the witness's name

21 has happened now on, I think, at least six -- six occasions. I'd like to

22 believe it's inadvertent.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, usually we don't -- we do everything possible

24 to send signals to the parties as a warning. We do not have it in the

25 transcript, you know, because we need some redactions also to that effect.

Page 50

1 And I believe that Mr. Morrissey in the future will take our warnings

2 seriously.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, can I indicate I do take them very

4 seriously. And you will have seen how this has unfolded for a number of

5 witnesses now. I am sorry that it's -- but it's happened this way. And

6 we'll endeavour to do better.

7 Q. But now that that issue is over with, could we come back to this.

8 You see Ms. Chana sitting over there. Did you tell her about this tape or

9 didn't you?

10 A. I don't know. I don't remember really. But I -- I've asked to

11 be a protected witness here. You've -- you've kept mentioning my name.

12 But no matter. You are defending a person here who knows about the events

13 in Grabovica. You're merely trying to do your job, to have your own case

14 out --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't want to know about

16 my role. Thanks. What I want to put -- I'll put a more general

17 proposition and then we're going to start at the start. And the more

18 general proposition is this: You and Ramiz Delalic -- I'll put it another

19 way. Ramiz Delalic through his agent, you, is putting material before

20 this Court with the sole view of distracting attention from the 9th

21 Brigade killers and focussing it on the accused, Mr. Halilovic. Do you

22 agree with that proposition or not?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

24 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I would object to this question on the

25 grounds it's speculating as to what Ramiz Delalic is doing.

Page 51

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's not a proper question, Mr. Morrissey.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, if you can -- if you reconsider the

3 question on the transcript there, I submit I'm entitled -- I have to put

4 it to this witness because I'm putting a collusion. I've got to put that.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that in this situation, you have to

6 build up your case step by step, you know.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it's true, but it's -- but it is

8 cross-examination. However, Your Honour, I hear what you say. I'll deal

9 with it differently.

10 Q. You've spoken with Mr. Delalic many times in the last year,

11 haven't you?

12 A. Is this a question to me?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I wasn't really on good terms with Ramiz Delalic since 1996. As

15 for Ramiz Delalic, Celo, I can only say that this is a man who saved those

16 children. I'm nobody's agent here. I'm just a witness of this Tribunal

17 to confirm what actually happened. As for your putting to me that I'm

18 someone's agent --

19 Q. Come back -- come back to the question, please. You've met with

20 him many times in the last 12 months.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Have you met with him ever in the past 12 months?

23 A. In the past 12 months -- or rather, some 5 -- it's been now 5

24 months that this gentleman is in jail now. And for the remainder of the

25 period, the person was abroad, out of reach of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian

Page 52

1 authorities. So I never talked to him. I never saw him. And I never

2 crossed the borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina or Croatia.

3 Q. Did you speak to him on the telephone?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In the last 12 months, you haven't spoken with Ramiz Delalic at

6 all? Is that the position?

7 A. Only once, when Azem Mehonjic, the lawyer, was there, who told me

8 that Ramiz was saying that I should tell the truth and not that Sefer

9 Halilovic had not been commander of the Operation Neretva. That's when

10 the lawyer phoned Ramiz and then Ramiz told me over the phone, "You should

11 only tell the truth." That's all.

12 Q. And what did Ramiz have to do with it? Why did you need to speak

13 to Ramiz about that topic?

14 A. How should I know? Perhaps he was afraid that I was going to be

15 influenced or intimidated by someone. But again, I repeat, the man only

16 told me to tell the truth and nothing but.

17 Q. Very well. Witness D, we are now going to go back to the

18 beginning of your involvement in these matters. In -- in August of 1993,

19 you were a member of the 9th Brigade and the assault company of that

20 brigade; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in whose platoon were you?

23 A. The commander of my platoon of the assault detachment was Malco

24 Rovcanin.

25 Q. Yes. And under Rovcanin, however, there were three platoon

Page 53

1 commanders?

2 A. Correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And what were their names?

5 A. There was nay Nevzet Sabanovic, Samir Pilica, and I don't know

6 the name of the third one.

7 Q. Now, Ramiz Delalic was a commander who was very strict about the

8 use of alcohol and drugs; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And he would not tolerate such behaviour from his troops; is that

11 correct?

12 A. He punished his men if they took drugs. He tied them to

13 radiators. He wouldn't let them go out. He did everything he could to

14 get them off drugs, even imprisoned them.

15 Q. What he did not do was to report them to the police; is that the

16 fact? He dealt with them himself.

17 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I will object again to this question on

18 the basis he's asking a question of the witness as to what another person

19 did or did not do.

20 JUDGE LIU: So what's the problem for that? I see no problem for

21 that. The witness could answer yes or no, you know. I don't see any

22 problem.

23 You may proceed, Mr. Morrissey.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Well, Witness D, that's the fact, isn't it? Ramiz Delalic dealt

Page 54

1 with those problems internally and did not involve the police, either

2 military police or civilian police; is that correct or not?

3 A. I tell you he gave them over to the military police in the

4 central prison, the military prison. He sent them to prison for that. He

5 didn't deal with this on his own. He was not a judge.

6 Q. No. I --

7 A. It was other authorities.

8 Q. Which authorities was it who tied people to the -- to the

9 radiator?

10 A. Well, authorities. Those who came. People were undergoing some

11 sort of crisis. I don't know what kind of a feeling that is, but you had

12 to guard them until the police came. You had to calm them down. I didn't

13 really mean to keep them tied to radiators like dogs or animals, as you

14 seem to interpret it.

15 Q. I'm not interpreting anything, Witness D. I'm just asking you

16 what the facts are.

17 But to proceed. To your -- from what you noticed and what you

18 saw, Ramiz Delalic commanded a great deal of loyalty from his troops; is

19 that true?

20 A. We were like, well, ordinary privates. But he also behaved like

21 a simple soldier. He didn't act like a commander. We had our brigade

22 commander who was also just like an ordinary soldier. Ramiz Delalic,

23 Celo, never really acted as if he was different from other men. We were

24 all soldiers together.

25 Q. Yes. But if Ramiz gave an order, so far as you could observe in

Page 55

1 that -- in your part of the 9th Brigade, it was obeyed; correct?

2 A. He received these orders from someone, and then he gave them to

3 us and we had to do whatever it was, follow orders.

4 Q. Yes. But just deal with the question you're being asked, please.

5 When Ramiz Delalic gave an order, from what you observed, it was obeyed in

6 the 9th Brigade; correct?

7 A. He only gave us combat orders. Nothing else. The ones he

8 received from the Supreme Command. He received all sorts of orders from

9 the gentlemen in the Supreme Command and then he told us what the orders

10 were.

11 Q. Now, in July of 1993, there was an incident involving a

12 confrontation between some of your soldiers from the 9th Brigade and some

13 members of the civilian police; is that true?

14 A. I know about it, but I didn't participate in it. I wasn't there.

15 Q. In relation to that incident, what you know -- what you know from

16 being there at the time, from being in Sarajevo at the time, was that

17 members of the military -- sorry, members of the civilian police were

18 disarmed by some 9th Brigade members for a short period of time and then

19 they were released. Is that true?

20 A. As far as I know, they were released. But I don't know why this

21 happened or how it actually happened.

22 Q. That's okay, Witness D. I'm not going to press you about the

23 reasons. But following upon that confrontation, the -- a man named Fikret

24 Muslimovic was dismissed from his post in military security and the head

25 of the 1st Corps was also replaced - that was Talijan - who was in charge

Page 56

1 of the 1st Corps. Is that accurate?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Very well. Now, Ramiz Delalic was not present during the

4 killings in Grabovica, was he?

5 A. No.

6 Q. And one thing you can say for sure is that when Ramiz Delalic was

7 present, the soldiers used to behave themselves very well, didn't they?

8 A. He arrived in Grabovica only when he brought those children

9 there, and all the soldiers were afraid, the ones who were lined up,

10 because I am certain he would have killed the man who committed the crime

11 had they been in the line-up. I assert that.

12 Q. Okay. That's okay. Don't -- just deal with the question you're

13 being asked and it will go a little bit quicker, Witness D. The truth is

14 that when Delalic was present, not just in Grabovica but at other places

15 too, the soldiers would behave themselves well. That's correct, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, what you say about Mr. Delalic also is that he made what

18 appeared to you to be a bona fide genuine effort to find out who the

19 killers were; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, he asked the children to identify the killers.

21 Q. And as far as you could see, at that point Mr. Delalic was not

22 covering up this crime but was trying to uncover it; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Why didn't you tell him who the criminals were?

25 A. Because those men were not there and they all went to Jablanica

Page 57

1 after that and Celo went back with the children and Mr. Sefer Halilovic

2 and Zuka and Vehbija Karic, where they all met. I'm sure they discussed

3 what happened. But then they covered it up. The Supreme Command was all

4 there. The Chief of Staff, your client, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, was there.

5 Why didn't he take any action? Why didn't he bring that unit back and act

6 as he should have to have the crime uncovered? You're asking me to say

7 something that didn't happen. He should have done that. Ramiz Delalic

8 wasn't able to. I wasn't able to. They could have shot the whole unit

9 and that would have been the end of it.

10 Q. Yes. But just come back to my question though. You knew who the

11 real killers were, so why didn't you go to Ramiz Delalic and tell him that

12 information?

13 A. I don't know. I can't remember why.

14 Q. Is it because you were one of the killers?

15 A. No, I wasn't a killer. I told you, had I been a killer, I would

16 confess it now.

17 Q. Very well. When you departed on the 7th of September from the

18 base at Trampina Street, Sefer Halilovic was not there; correct?

19 A. No. Mr. Karavelic was there.

20 Q. You were addressed by Mr. Karavelic and he told you what the

21 operation was about; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, Operation Neretva and that the Supreme Commander of that

23 operation was Mr. Sefer Halilovic, as he was.

24 Q. Did he tell you whether Sefer Halilovic was the Chief of Staff or

25 not?

Page 58

1 A. I knew he was the Chief of Staff. He was not the commander of

2 the army, however. Throughout the war, he was the Chief of Staff. From

3 the first day when he joined the army, he was the Chief of Staff.

4 Q. And was it your understanding that he was in the same position

5 now that he was in at the start of the war, Chief of Staff?

6 A. I think so, yes. Maybe his position is stronger. Time has

7 elapsed and the army was no longer groups of 10 or 20 soldiers in the

8 streets but brigades were established and it was under his command.

9 Q. Thank you. You knew very well he'd been replaced as commander of

10 the army by Rasim Delic early in June of 1993. You knew that, didn't you,

11 Witness D?

12 A. No, that's not correct that Rasim Delic replaced him. Rasim

13 Delic was appointed to an establishment post that had not been filled,

14 commander of the army. Sefer Halilovic was the Chief of Staff of the

15 army. You're talking about something else. Sefer Halilovic was never the

16 commander of the army establishment-wise.

17 Q. Yes. And according to you, is the position this: You were told

18 that your unit would be subordinated -- sorry, that your -- you would be

19 commanded by Zuka? Is that what you say you were told at -- at the

20 barracks at Trampina Street?

21 A. Yes, that's a different area of responsibility, another corps.

22 That's something else altogether.

23 Q. You mentioned the name of Gusic earlier on. Were you told that

24 the immediate commander to Zuka was going to be Salko Gusic?

25 A. Salko Gusic was there. It was -- the 4th and the 6th Corps. And

Page 59

1 whether they had been joined together at that point, I don't know. Salko

2 Gusic was the commander of the 6th Corps. There was also the 4th Corps.

3 I can't remember at what time those two corps were joined and had a single

4 commander. Salko Gusic was there --

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the question is: Were you

6 told at Trampina Street that Zuka's unit was under Gusic or not

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you told whether or not Gusic had any involvement while you

9 were there at Trampina Street?

10 A. They didn't mention any other commanders except for Sefer

11 Halilovic, who was mentioned by Mr. Karavelic. He said, "Our Chief of

12 Staff, the commander of Operation Neretva will be Mr. Sefer Halilovic and

13 he will issue all the orders, as he issued an order to withdraw after two

14 days.

15 Q. Are you -- let me ask you a question: Are you -- I withdraw it.

16 I'll proceed another way. Your account is that Ramiz was not the

17 commander of the units that came down in the truck; is that right?

18 A. No. We were under the command of Zulfikar Alispago, known as

19 Zuka. Ramiz Delalic, Celo, had no connection with us.

20 Q. But he was there in the truck with you on the way down to

21 Jablanica, wasn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you protecting Ramiz Delalic in your evidence here?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Are you sure he had no function and no connection with you troops

Page 60

1 at all on that occasion?

2 A. No, he had no orders.

3 Q. Did he --

4 A. And when we --

5 Q. Sorry, did he arrive in Jablanica with you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, for a short period of time, did he come on actually and

8 join you in the village of Grabovica?

9 A. He came with the children. That was on the 9th, at about 3.00 in

10 the afternoon.

11 Q. Is that the only occasion you ever saw him in Grabovica?

12 A. Yes, the only occasion.

13 Q. Did he ever take up a position in the white house that you

14 accommodated yourself in?

15 A. Only afterwards, when we went into action. I don't know whether

16 he spent that night there between the 9th and the 10th, when we went into

17 action.

18 Q. Very well. Now, when you arrived in Jablanica, it was the fact

19 that Zuka came and met - and Zuka -- by "Zuka" I mean Zulfikar Alispago -

20 Zuka meant and spoke to your group. Is that right?

21 A. Yes. He found accommodation for us. It was in front of his

22 base, in Donja Jablanica. He said he would find accommodation for us

23 that, he would take care of food for us, and everything else that we

24 needed.

25 Q. Yes. But it's a bit more than that. He told you that

Page 61

1 accommodation was already arranged in Grabovica, didn't he?

2 A. Well, I'm sure he agreed about accommodation. I don't know.

3 Q. And after that, you were taken and escorted by three or four of

4 Zuka's soldiers to Grabovica; isn't that right?

5 A. Yes. He gave us blankets and some sort of mattresses to sleep

6 on.

7 Q. Yes. And how many of you did he give blankets and some sort of

8 mattresses to sleep on?

9 A. Well, whoever lacked these things. They came to the truck and

10 this was distributed. Whoever needed these things was issued with them,

11 if they couldn't find mattresses or blankets in the house where they were.

12 Q. You were then escorted to Grabovica by a soldier of Zuka's with

13 the nickname of Spaga; is that correct?

14 A. I don't know. I didn't mention that. I don't know. Spaga? It

15 sounds familiar. Yes, I know the man, but I don't know whether he was

16 there.

17 Q. Just to be clear about the dates: You left Sarajevo on the 7th

18 and you arrived in Jablanica on the morning of the 8th. That's correct,

19 isn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You then took up residence in an empty house, white in colour; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you take up residence there with Dino Arnautovic, the

25 logistics man from your company?

Page 62

1 A. Yes, but we didn't go in because it was dirty and neglected. The

2 house had to be cleaned out. So we were in front of the house, actually.

3 Q. Was Malco Rovcanin also detailed to go and stay in that house?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was Ramiz Delalic, at that early stage, detailed to go into that

6 house?

7 A. I don't know whether he was supposed to be put up there, but when

8 he arrived with those children, he was in front of that house. He was

9 there.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

11 A. But he didn't sleep there at all.

12 Q. No. But just in terms of the children, that's later. I'm

13 talking about when you arrived there. Is your position this: That Ramiz

14 Delalic --

15 A. No. No.

16 Q. -- or not?

17 A. No. No, he wasn't with us.

18 Q. And you've never told anyone that he was.

19 A. No, I didn't tell anyone that he was or that he slept there that

20 night.

21 Q. Now, this house smelled very bad, didn't it, Witness, Witness D?

22 A. Yes. Yes, it was dirty.

23 Q. Yes. And not just dirty. It smelt bad too; correct?

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 Q. And it had no electricity; correct?

Page 63

1 A. No, it didn't.

2 Q. And it didn't have any running order either; correct?

3 A. No, it didn't.

4 Q. And in short, it looks like you got the worse house in the

5 village; is that correct?

6 A. It was the only one left over.

7 Q. And to your knowledge, other soldiers had houses where there was

8 heating, water, electricity, and food; is that correct?

9 A. We didn't look for it. We got food from Zuka. There was

10 electricity in all the houses. We didn't need heating because it was

11 summertime. And we brought electricity in from the neighbouring house.

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. In fact, it was wartime and we had lived in Sarajevo for a long

14 time without electricity or water or food, and we could sleep under the

15 open sky, out in the open.

16 Q. Yes. But just to jump ahead a little bit. You indicated that

17 there was a soldier who complained about their -- their accommodation

18 conditions. Now --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was it you who had the worst accommodation conditions of everyone

21 in the village? You, Witness D?

22 A. No, I didn't have the worst accommodation. I was satisfied with

23 the accommodation. I cleaned the house. I knew we wouldn't stay there

24 long. And the weather was nice and I could sleep out in the open.

25 Q. What's the use of cleaning the house if you could sleep out in

Page 64

1 the open?

2 A. Well, for purposes of my personal hygiene.

3 Q. Yes. All right. And on that first day and evening that you

4 spent in -- in Grabovica, you've indicated to the Prosecutor that you

5 visited some other people and that ultimately you went quietly to bed. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And so through that -- that evening -- that afternoon and evening

9 of the 8th, you heard no screaming by terrified Croat civilians; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You saw no 9th Brigade members or any other people shooting

13 innocent civilians; is that correct?

14 A. Not that night, no.

15 Q. You saw no one trying to flee the village; is that correct?

16 A. That night, no.

17 Q. You heard no drunken soldiers singing and celebrating; is that

18 correct?

19 A. There was no drinking that night. There were no drunken

20 soldiers. I don't know.

21 Q. Did you --

22 A. I didn't.

23 Q. Okay. Did you observe any alcohol in the village on that night,

24 the 8th?

25 A. No.

Page 65

1 Q. And what about Mr. Mehanovic? Where was he that night, the night

2 of the 8th? Was he in the village with you?

3 A. Yes, he was in the village with us. He slept in a house higher

4 up than the one where Musa was. I don't know. Maybe -- I can show it to

5 you if you like.

6 Q. I'm going to show you those pictures in just a moment.

7 What about Mr. Arnautovic? Did he stay with you that first

8 night?

9 A. Yes, he was with us and he slept outside in the open.

10 Q. And did he have a vehicle with him?

11 A. No.

12 Q. He didn't have a jeep, a brown jeep with a white roof?

13 A. I don't know. No.

14 Q. He didn't drive backwards and forwards to Jablanica to collect

15 supplies?

16 A. Well, we received food every day from Zuka's headquarters,

17 breakfast, lunch, and dinner. No other supplies were needed. And Zuka's

18 soldiers brought that food in. As far as I know, Dino didn't bring

19 anything in except that he distributed cigarettes, rations of cigarettes.

20 Q. Well, he's given evidence in this court and I'm going to have to

21 ask you to comment on this. He's given sworn evidence here that he went

22 backwards and forwards to Jablanica on a number of occasions on the 8th.

23 But you're claiming -- you can say he was there with you in the village

24 without a car; is that right?

25 A. I don't know. Believe me, I can neither confirm nor deny this.

Page 66

1 I don't know.

2 Q. Well, why can't you deny it, given the evidence you gave two

3 minutes ago?

4 A. He was there with me, and whether he went or didn't go, I don't

5 know. I can't say whether he went or not. I can't remember the details

6 after so much time, whether he went to get food or not, whether the food

7 was late or not.

8 Q. Let me ask you this question: Are you prepared to adapt your

9 evidence whenever it looks like one of your friends is in trouble? Is

10 that your position?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very well. Look, I want to put something to you in general

13 terms, Witness D. I want to put to you that what really happened on the

14 afternoon of the 8th is that some of you soldiers commenced killing and

15 ill-treating Croat civilians in Grabovica starting at around approximately

16 6.00 p.m. and that the killing, the ill-treatment, the drunkenness, and

17 the terrorising just went on from there. Do you agree or not?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And --

20 A. As far as I know, no.

21 Q. Let me be quite clear about something. You have always said that

22 the first day and night passed peacefully, haven't you? That's always

23 been your position. Correct?

24 A. Yes, from the 8th to the 9th, yes.

25 Q. Yes, that's right. Do you happen to know -- is it within your

Page 67

1 knowledge that Mr. Mehanovic says the same thing, that the first day and

2 night passed by in peace; namely, the night of the 8th and over into the

3 9th? Do you know that that's what Mehanovic says too?


5 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I mean, I object on the grounds that

6 he's using the testimony of another witness. It's the way it's being

7 done, Your Honour, in the sense that does he know that Mr. Mehanovic is

8 saying this or the other. I mean, I agree that now it is evidence in

9 court and he may refer to it, but it's got to be in an appropriate manner

10 and not tell the witness what Mr. Mehanovic is saying or not saying and

11 does he know whether Mr. Mehanovic said certain things. Perhaps the

12 question could be framed in -- in more concrete terms, Your Honour, and --

13 and referenced to the transcript.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's no problem for the -- for the Defence

15 team to use the testimony of the previous witness to challenge or put a

16 question to this witness, but maybe this question is not in the proper

17 form and maybe Mr. Morrissey could put it in another way.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I hope it is in the proper form.

19 When Your Honour raises the possibility of a problem, I'll put it

20 differently. But I don't want my learned friend to make objections like

21 that. That wasn't a proper objection. As Your Honour will see, it

22 started with one thing, it ended with another. It's not a proper way to

23 object.

24 However, if there be any lack of clarity, that doesn't help the

25 Defence and I won't persist with the question, if it's raising that sort

Page 68

1 of issue.

2 Well -- no, Your Honour, I would seek to persist with that

3 transcript. Your Honour, could I just justify it by regard to the

4 transcript.


6 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour understands and the Court understands

7 that I'm putting collusion. I'm putting that there's been an agreement.

8 Now, that question goes directly to that issue and really is the only way

9 you can ask that.

10 But I think there is another way, which I'll -- which I'll deal

11 with, Your Honour. I've thought of it so I'll deal with it that way.

12 Q. Witness D, you agreed upon your story as to that first night

13 passing by peacefully with your friends Mehanovic and Arnautovic, didn't

14 you? You agreed on that many years ago; yes or no?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Do you have any explanation for why it is that

17 Mr. Mehanovic says the same thing you say, that the first night passed in

18 peace and quiet?

19 A. I have no explanation for that. I really have no idea why

20 Mr. Mehanovic made such a statement. I wasn't there nor did I read

21 Mr. Mehanovic's statements nor did I enquire of him as to what sort of a

22 statement he gave --

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. -- wherever it was. Nor am I interested in that.

25 Q. Okay. I can understand that. Do you know why -- or do you have

Page 69

1 any explanation for why it is that Mr. Arnautovic says the same thing you

2 say, that the night of the 8th and into the 9th passed in peace?

3 A. Believe me, I don't know. The same goes for Mr. Arnautovic, just

4 as I stated in -- in relation to an earlier question. I have no idea why

5 this is so. There was no agreement, nor am -- nor is it my business what

6 they stated.

7 Q. And beyond what you've just said, you have no other explanation

8 to offer for why it is that you three friends are telling the same totally

9 wrong story; is that correct?

10 A. I know that this is a truthful account. Now, you can claim

11 otherwise.

12 Q. All right. Now, your claim is that the meeting where Karic made

13 the comment about Croats occurred at about lunchtime the following day; is

14 that correct? Is that your claim?

15 A. Yes, in the presence of Mr. Sefer, Zuka, Vehbija Karic, Salko

16 Gusic, and some other commanders that I don't know, Sadic, and others.

17 Yes, that's what I claim and that's true.

18 Q. Okay. Well, what I want to put to you is something quite

19 different: I put to you that a group of staff officers came along on the

20 afternoon of the 8th, the very afternoon that you arrived. And I want to

21 put to you that those staff officers were Vehbija Karic, Zicro Suljevic,

22 Rifat Bilajac, Namik Dzankovic, and Huso Alic from Zuka's Unit. I put it

23 to you that they arrived not on the 9th and not after a night of peace but

24 a short time, within hours, after you arrived at -- at Grabovica. Do you

25 agree or disagree?

Page 70

1 A. I disagree. They arrived on the 9th.

2 Q. I put it to you that they held no mass meeting or line-up of the

3 kind that you've described at all. Do you agree or disagree?

4 A. This was no line-up. People were sitting. Sefer addressed the

5 group, but it wasn't like a line-up in the strictest sense. They were all

6 sitting around. There was a lawn there. And they were being told what

7 they were supposed to do.

8 Q. Yes. Do you use the term "line-up" earlier on in your evidence

9 in chief or not?

10 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

11 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, did Mr. Karic have with him his son?

12 A. Mr. Karic? No. I don't know his son either.

13 Q. No. Well, do you know whether his son's half Croatian or not?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. See, to your knowledge, Vehbija Karic was a very experienced

16 staff officer, wasn't he?

17 A. An artillery man.

18 Q. And he was very senior in the Bosnian army; correct?

19 A. Certainly so.

20 Q. Yes. And he had the nickname of Amidza, uncle, A-m-i-d-z-a; is

21 that correct?

22 A. I don't know about his nickname. I've never heard such a

23 nickname of his, nor did anybody inform me about it.

24 Q. All right. Now, at page 19 of the transcript in the evidence

25 that you gave today, did you say this, page 19 at line 3 - and I'll start

Page 71

1 in fairness to you at line 2 - "At that point, Vehbija Karic, Sefer

2 Halilovic, Zuka, and other commanders from the SUP Supreme Command who

3 were there came. They lined up all the units that were there and the

4 units were lined up just in front of the house where -- where I slept in,

5 because there was a plain, a plateau there where everybody could be lined

6 up"? Now, was that your evidence maybe an hour ago or so in this

7 Tribunal, where you said "lined up" three times in one paragraph?

8 A. First of all, Sefer Halilovic and Vehbija Karic did not line up

9 the soldiers. It was the commanders of the platoons -- or rather, of the

10 units who called on the soldiers to show up. They said this unit should

11 be here, this unit should be there. After that, all of them were seated

12 there. So it wasn't Sefer or Vehbija who lined them up. They all

13 gathered, sat down, and that's when they were told about Operation

14 Neretva. So there were units of the 9th Motorised Brigade, Cedo's Wolves,

15 Zuka's men, the Independent Battalion. All of these units numbering some

16 100 to 150 troops.

17 Q. Yes. All right. Well, Witness D, is your position this: That

18 that line-up or sitdown or whatever it was took place at 12.00, or did it

19 take place at 3.00 in the afternoon? What's your account about that?

20 A. I don't know whether these three hours make any difference,

21 really. I didn't have a watch to be able to pay any attention to the

22 time. I know that it was around noontime. Whether it was noon, 12.00,

23 whether it was 1.00, 2.00, or 3.00 in the afternoon, I don't know.

24 Q. Well, is the reason you don't know because the whole meeting is

25 just made up by you and you can tell the big picture but you can't

Page 72

1 remember the details? Is that the position?

2 A. I didn't make up anything. I told you what had happened, and I'm

3 sure that they -- "they" meaning those commanders who were there -- that

4 they knew the course of events but simply refused to say so.

5 Q. What's the name of the six companions who were sitting with you

6 when these commanders arrived in the jeeps?

7 A. I don't know. I, Dino, Nevzet Sabanovic, Sulejman Lujinovic. I

8 don't know. I can't remember their names. This was long ago, 1993, then

9 1998. I can't recall all the names, but I'm sure the people who were

10 there, they know these men, just as I do.

11 Q. Yes. Okay. So to the best of your -- what you're saying here is

12 that you, Sabanovic -- sorry, yourself, Sabanovic, Dino Arnautovic,-- and

13 I'm sorry, I've just forgotten. You did mention another person, Sule

14 Lujinovic - is that correct - were sitting there when these people arrived

15 in their jeeps. Is that right?

16 A. We were making lunch, and at that point I was extracting honey

17 from a honeycomb there, and that's when I offered the honey to the

18 commanders who had just arrived.

19 Q. All right. But even on these matters of detail, Mr. Witness, I

20 have to ask you: Didn't you tell the Tribunal earlier on that Dino

21 Arnautovic was one of the drivers of these jeeps? This was at page 12 --

22 just hold on a second. I'll put the transcript so there's no unfairness

23 to you. At page 22 --

24 A. Yes, that's what I said.

25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... hang on a second, then.

Page 73

1 This is what we want to put. This is at line 6 of page 22: "The other

2 jeep was driven by Dino." And then the Prosecutor asked another question.

3 Mr. Morrissey made an objection. And the objection was: "I wonder if my

4 friend would like to clarify the identity of this person who's called Dino

5 here because we have a Dino who gave evidence." His Honour Judge Liu

6 said: "Yes." And you then said "Dino Arnautovic" also known as "Dino."

7 Do you remember giving that evidence? That's not a difficult question

8 there. Could you please --

9 A. No, no. That was Dino Arnautovic. I mentioned him as my fellow

10 colleague from my brigade. He was there. He came with them and was there

11 with us. That was before all the military men arrived later on.

12 Q. I see. So your position is that Dino was there with you before

13 the military men arrived. He then left and brought them back in a jeep.

14 Is that what you're claim is, your claim now?

15 A. No. He had come with the gentlemen, and that's why I counted him

16 in. I factored him in as being there before all the troops gathered up.

17 So he wasn't seated with the commanders. He was there with us. He had

18 brought them over and was then there with us as one of the men in -- in my

19 company, until all the troops gathered.

20 Q. All right. And, of course, it -- the other two people who you

21 say were there, were they people from the same house as Mr. Lujinovic ...?

22 A. I don't know precisely which house they were from. I just know

23 that Nevzet Sabanovic was in the same house that I slept in.

24 Q. Very well. Now, did you say to my learned friend Ms. Chana in

25 proofing that this meeting took place at 1500 hours?

Page 74

1 A. It is possible. I don't know the exact hour. I told you that it

2 was around noon. I did not specify the time because I didn't know the

3 exact time of their arrival.

4 Q. Yes. Well, just let me be clear about this. Did you say -- did

5 you specify the time to my learned friend here, Ms. Chana, "At 1500 hours

6 the commanders came to Grabovica"? Did you specify 1500 hours to

7 Ms. Chana who's sitting here in court?

8 A. It is possible that I said that it was at 3.00 in the afternoon.

9 Q. Well, it's not just a question of it being possible. That's what

10 you told her, isn't it?

11 A. Well, fine. Yes, I did say so, but I don't know the exact hour.

12 It's been 12 years. I suppose you can understand. I can't recall what

13 happened yesterday, let alone 10 years ago.

14 Q. Why can't you recall what happened yesterday? Have you got a bad

15 memory?

16 A. It's not that I have a bad memory. You're just asking for very

17 specific pieces of information and you're on a lookout for a reason to ...

18 Q. All right. Well, I'll just come to some other specifics.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe it's time for a break before we come to

20 other specifics.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm just considering whether

22 there's -- yes. Yes. Yes, Your Honour, it should be about time.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter

24 to 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.

Page 75

1 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Please lead us to the specifics.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Thank you very much, Witness D.

5 Witness D, before the break, I was asking you questions about the

6 meeting that you've described where Mr. Karic made his blood-thirsty

7 comment, and I wanted to ask you this: Of the people who were there, you

8 indicated that the platoon commanders had effectively fetched or procured

9 the soldiers. So I take it from that that Nihad Vlahovljak was present at

10 this gathering. Is that accurate?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you're familiar too with some other individuals connected

13 with Vlahovljak, with the nicknames Dzigi, Klos, and Hajre. That's

14 correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And they were there at this gathering according to you as well;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So you would say that at the time this gathering of yours took

20 place that they weren't sitting around a table at Pero Maric's house with

21 Enes Sakrak; is that correct?

22 A. The meeting with Vehbija Karic, Sefer Halilovic and others? Is

23 that what you have in mind?

24 Q. Clearly.

25 A. At that point, all the soldiers were on the paddock outside this

Page 76

1 house where Mr. Sefer, Vehbija Karic, and others were seated.

2 Q. Yes. And because according to you, this is a very important

3 meeting with the Chief of Staff of the whole Bosnian army present;

4 correct?

5 A. Sefer Halilovic was there. He was talking about Operation

6 Neretva and about how we would not return at any cost until the siege of

7 Mostar had been lifted and things to that effect.

8 Q. Yes. Look, what I want to put to you is that the account given

9 by Mr. Sakrak is truly the correct one, and that is that he and his

10 companions, including Vlahovljak, spent that afternoon at the Pero Maric

11 house with Pero Maric and without any meetings such as the one you're now

12 alleging. Do you agree with that?

13 A. That took place on the 8th and not on the 9th, sir. We are

14 talking about a meeting that took place on the 9th and not on the 8th.

15 Because the night on the 8th was a peaceful one when nothing took place.

16 I am talking about the meeting that took place in the afternoon hours of

17 the 9th, where the officers and commanders were present.

18 Q. Yes. Yes, I understand that's your evidence. And -- very well.

19 Well, I want to come now to the -- the questions about the -- the killing

20 of Pero Maric. How long before he was killed did you find yourself at the

21 Pero Maric house?

22 A. I wasn't in the house at all. I was in front of the house, where

23 there was a table.

24 Q. Yes. The question is: How long before the killing did you

25 arrive there?

Page 77

1 A. Perhaps an hour. I was having a coffee with Nihad and others who

2 were there.

3 Q. And who else was there?

4 A. His soldiers who were members of his unit. We weren't really

5 close. I only know Nihad Vlahovljak and others I only knew by sight.

6 Q. Yes. And that included Klos; correct? K-l-o-s?

7 A. I don't know. Believe me, I don't know their names. If I saw

8 them, perhaps I'd be able to tell you that such-and-such were there.

9 Q. Just a moment, please. You had been a member of the 9th Brigade

10 assault company since it was founded; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In fact, along with your friend Nedzad Mehanovic, you had joined

13 the precursor brigade to the 9th Brigade on the 22nd of July the previous

14 year, on the same day as Mr. Mehanovic. That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes. We were reassigned from the 1st Sandzak Unit into the

16 military police unit at the time, because it wasn't a brigade yet.

17 Q. That's okay. And so you knew all of the people in that unit by

18 name.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes. And those people included Dzigi, Hajre, Pedja, and Klos; is

21 that correct?

22 A. I apologise. You seem to be talking about a different unit

23 altogether. This unit was under a different command. There was the 3rd

24 Mountain Brigade that joined with another and then formed the 9th

25 Motorised Brigade. We were at the time military police under the command

Page 78

1 of Nedzarovic [phoen]. So this was one platoon, a company of some 30 men

2 that was based at a school, and there was no brigade there, not was there

3 any Dzigi --

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right just stope there

5 for a moment. I'll just deal with the matter differently --

6 A. And there wasn't a school there. Nor was there a Dzigi --

7 Q. All right. The 9th Brigade assault platoon had been in existence

8 for several months at the time of September 1993; is that correct?

9 A. I haven't understood your question. Several months before what?

10 Q. The assault platoon had been in existence for several months

11 before the killings that you witnessed; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you knew by name the members of that assault company; is that

14 correct? Yes or no?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. And you knew the individuals that I just listed, Dzigi -- well,

17 I'll take them -- I withdraw that question. You knew Dzigi, didn't you?

18 A. This gentleman wasn't a member of my assault detachment. He was

19 in a unit in a completely different battalion.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and was he sitting around

21 the table when Pero Maric was shot?

22 A. I didn't know the gentleman and I don't know whether he was

23 seated next to me.

24 Q. You knew an individual with the name Hajre; is that correct?

25 A. I met Hajre on that same day, and I do remember him to this day.

Page 79

1 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and he was sitting at the

2 table too, wasn't he?

3 A. Yes. Yes, Hajre was.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... an individual called Pedja.

5 Q.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Yes, do you know an individual named Galic, Serbian background?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You knew Nihad, and he was sitting at the table; correct?

10 A. Nihad Vlahovljak?

11 Q. Yes. He was sitting at the table; correct?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him.

13 Q. Yes. And you knew a man called --

14 A. He was there with me having a coffee.

15 Q. And you knew a man called Prasovic, also with the nickname of

16 Klos, and he was at the table; correct?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. And those people were all at the table before you got there;

19 correct?

20 A. I don't know. I didn't make a statement to this effect. I

21 didn't know that. I didn't know the people at all. These were -- there

22 were two brigades that merged into one. And these people were not members

23 of my assault detachment.

24 Q. That's okay. Now, you say that an individual walked in and

25 shot -- walked in and within 20 seconds he shot Pero Maric dead; is that

Page 80

1 correct? Is that your position?

2 A. Yes. I entered the house. We were --

3 Q. Was Pero Maric seated at the table when he was shot?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you arrive with this individual who did the shooting?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you say you arrived alone?

8 A. Alone.

9 Q. Yes. He didn't arrive with you, did he?

10 A. He didn't come with me. I came before him.

11 Q. You didn't take a packet of cigarettes out of the dead man's

12 pocket, did you?

13 A. No. I had enough cigarettes of my own. I didn't need to.

14 Q. Oh, I see. Well, did you see that done?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Where do you say Pero Maric was when the bullet hit him? Sitting

17 at the table or somewhere else?

18 A. He was in his house. That's what I said ten times already. I

19 don't want to repeat myself.

20 Q. That's all right. Standing or sitting?

21 A. I don't know. I did not see that. I only know that he was in

22 his house. I didn't even know his name until I talked to the people at

23 the UN premises in Sarajevo.

24 Q. Very well. Now, after you saw that -- well, perhaps I should ask

25 you this. Did you see that shooting or not?

Page 81

1 A. No.

2 Q. So is your position that you were seated at the coffee table but

3 you didn't see the shooting? Is that correct?

4 A. How could I have seen it when it took place in the house?

5 Otherwise, I would have said that I had seen it.

6 Q. Yes. So did you watch the shooter walk into the house?

7 A. Yes. He entered the house. I don't know if -- I didn't know

8 what was going to happen.

9 Q. Are you sure that that's the truth? You didn't know what was

10 going to happen?

11 A. Yes, I'm certain of it.

12 Q. What did you see happen when the shooter walked into the house?

13 A. Nothing. I only heard a shot, nothing else.

14 Q. Did he close the door behind him when he entered the house or

15 not?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Well, you were there. What did you see? Did he close the door

18 or not?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. What did you see when you were looking?

21 A. I wasn't looking at all. I was seated at the table unsuspecting

22 of a murder to take place. You're asking me questions that I simply ...

23 Q. Very well. Did you see the body?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever see the body?

Page 82

1 A. Pero Maric's? No.

2 Q. Is Pero Maric's body one of those taken away in the trucks by

3 Zuka's soldiers, Mr. Witness D?

4 A. You should ask Zuka about this. I don't know.

5 Q. Well, I'm asking you. You accuse Zuka of taking bodies away in

6 trucks, and I'm asking you: Was the victim of the murder that you were

7 nearby to taken away in one of those trucks or not?

8 A. I don't know. I wasn't collecting dead bodies. It was Zuka's

9 men who did that. I never saw the dead bodies in Grabovica because I

10 myself did not collect them nor was I aware at the time of someone

11 collecting them.

12 Q. Let me ask you another question about that. Are you sure you

13 weren't one of the chief diggers and buriers of bodies in this criminal

14 sequence?

15 A. No, I never dug any graves nor buried the people there. I didn't

16 know about people being buried in Grabovica. I only know what I said,

17 that -- I know that they were killed. But where they were buried, I don't

18 know.

19 Q. Very well. So how did you know that somebody had been shot

20 inside the house at all?

21 A. Because the gentleman got out and Vlahovljak told him, "What are

22 you doing?" And the other one retorted in some manner.

23 Q. And what were the words he used when he retorted in some manner?

24 A. Nihad asked him, "What are you doing? Are you out of your mind?"

25 And the other one said, "Under beware that the same fate doesn't befall

Page 83

1 you as had befallen the other man." He turned round and left.

2 Q. Did you go inside and have a look to see what had happened to the

3 other man?

4 A. I didn't go inside, but the others did. Nihad went in, and then

5 came out to tell us that the man was dead.

6 Q. What about the woman? Did he tell you that as well or not?

7 A. Yes, he said that there was a man and that there was a woman.

8 Both were killed. That the madman had killed both the man and the woman.

9 Q. So the woman, having been killed at that point, it wouldn't be

10 possible for anyone to hear her crying in the night after the shooting of

11 Pero Maric in her bedroom; is that correct?

12 A. I don't know about that. I wasn't there, because at that point I

13 returned to the house that I was accommodated in and we were commenting

14 upon the madness that reigned and about how this was all brought on by

15 what Vehbija Karic had said.

16 Q. All right. Well, how long did you remain at the Maric house

17 before you left back for your own house?

18 A. I never entered the house, I told you. I stayed there for some

19 ten minutes and then went back to the house that I slept in. It wasn't my

20 house; it was the house they slept in.

21 Q. And in that ten minutes, did you ask any details of those who had

22 been inside and claimed to have seen the bodies?

23 A. No. They just came out and said that a man and a woman had been

24 killed and that was all.

25 Q. Did anyone have any cigarettes from the body of the man?

Page 84

1 A. I didn't go in, I told you. I have no idea whether someone had

2 taken cigarettes or not.

3 Q. Did people appear to -- well, I withdraw that.

4 And did you speak to Nihad and say, "What are we going to do

5 about this?"

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you speak to any of the others and say, "What are we going to

8 do about this?"

9 A. Nobody said anything about it nor acted upon it.

10 Q. Why didn't you say to the others, "What a disgusting horrifying

11 thing. What are we going to do"?

12 A. All the soldiers who were there were aware of this and did

13 nothing. I don't know. I have no answer to give.

14 Q. Why didn't you suggest, "Let's go and talk to Ramiz. There's

15 been a murder of civilians committed"?

16 A. Well, Nihad Vlahovljak, as a commander there, should have done

17 that, assumed responsibility, because it was the house that he slept in

18 and he should have done something about it.

19 Q. Who was your commander?

20 A. Nevzet Sabanovic.

21 A. Did you tell him?

22 A. No, at that point he was conducting reconnaissance at the beater,

23 at the antenna, at the hillock in the locality of Vrdi, Vrdi. Whatever it

24 was called.

25 Q. Yes. Could you just tell us how we spell his name.

Page 85

1 A. Nevzet Sabanovic.

2 Q. Yes, I understand. And Antena hill at Vrdi that, -- is that the

3 area where you were in combat later on?

4 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. Yes. Very well. Well -- and Mr. Sabanovic was conducting that

6 reconnaissance because of the need to -- to effectively reconnoiter the

7 scene of the battle; is that correct?

8 A. He received such an order from Sefer Halilovic that

9 reconnaissance troops be sent over there to get acquainted with the

10 terrain because we had never had any actions in Herzegovina prior to that.

11 Q. I understand. You see, he's one of the people that you said was

12 there when the honey was being offered to Vehbija Karic, isn't he? Isn't

13 that right?

14 A. Yes, yes, upon their arrival.

15 Q. Yes, I understand. So what you want to say is that he'd been

16 sent off for reconnaissance after that time; is that correct?

17 A. After the meeting on the 9th, yes.

18 Q. Yes. Okay. And you can be quite clear about that, can't you,

19 that he was sent away on the afternoon of the 9th, Mr. Sabanovic; correct?

20 A. Yes. He set off in the afternoon and he waited for us in the

21 village of Dreznica, which was where we set out for our action from.

22 Q. All right. Well, who was in command in his absence of your

23 platoon?

24 A. Nobody.

25 Q. Why didn't you tell Malco Rovcanin?

Page 86

1 A. I don't know. I believe that Malco wasn't around at the time of

2 the first murder at all.

3 Q. Look, this wasn't the sort of thing that happened every day, was

4 it, that an innocent civilian would just be shot dead in his own home by

5 one of your brigade members. So I'm going to repeat the question to you:

6 Why didn't you do something, tell someone, take some action? And if not

7 that, why didn't you discuss doing that with someone of the people sitting

8 around at the table?

9 A. I didn't do anything about it because it was not within my power.

10 The one who should have done so is the person you're representing, so you

11 should ask him why he never did anything about it.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... why -- sorry. Why didn't you

13 go and ask Sefer Halilovic? Why didn't you --

14 A. Because he never showed up.

15 Q. Why didn't you go in to Jablanica and tell him?

16 A. What with? On a bicycle? Take a walk?

17 Q. Isn't the truth of the matter -- well, just a moment. You know

18 that some refugees were put in the position of having to take that walk,

19 don't you? You know that; correct?

20 A. I'm not aware of that.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you --

22 A. The Muslim refugees were on the other side.

23 Q. Sure. You know that some Croat refugees fleeing from the

24 killings made that very walk to Jablanica in their 70s; correct?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 87

1 Q. Isn't the fact really this, that from the moment that Pero Maric

2 was killed you have been covering up your own role from that day until

3 this minute? Is that the fact?

4 A. No, I had no one to report it to. Everyone was covering it up,

5 from Sefer Halilovic on. Why should I be to blame?

6 Q. And when Ramiz -- why did you mention Sefer Halilovic at that

7 point then particularly, Witness?

8 A. Because he was the one in charge, responsible for the entire

9 operation, for the entire region in Herzegovina. At that point in time,

10 the man was Sefer Halilovic.

11 Q. The question is: Why did you mention his name in evidence at

12 this moment? Perhaps I can suggest to you -- I'll put a proposition to

13 you: Whenever you're put under pressure in these questions, what you're

14 going to do is to say "Sefer Halilovic was the commander," "Sefer

15 Halilovic should have done something," and "Sefer Halilovic is the person

16 who's covered it up."

17 A. Of course.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... because you're the killer;

19 is that right?

20 A. I'm not a killer and you're accusing me without evidence. If you

21 show me evidence, then I'd accept it. But if I had been a killer, I

22 would have confessed so. The man responsible for the killings is the one

23 seated next to you there, your client.

24 Q. In fairness to you, I'll put -- point the evidence to you that

25 I'm going to point out so that you know where this is going. You in your

Page 88

1 constant, what we put to you as dishonest has denials of your involvement,

2 minimised your role, and concealed your presence at Pero Maric's death and

3 at other criminal acts precisely because you were the author of those

4 acts. You understand that proposition that's being put to you?

5 A. I wasn't the author of these acts, nor do I know why these things

6 happened. All the people who were there were responsible for the crimes

7 because they were covering up the same acts, from ordinary privates up to

8 the most senior officers. Let's say frankly that it wasn't in the

9 interest of the Supreme Command to clarify the whole event, and it could

10 have been all cleared up after Operation Neretva had taken place. Now,

11 why they chose not to, this is something I don't know. You should ask the

12 gentlemen from the Supreme Command.

13 Q. Okay. Well --

14 A. Now, that I was supposed to come and report to Sefer Halilovic

15 that this is the way things happened ...

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, I believe that this lines of the

17 questioning become a little bit more argumentative.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: You're doubtless correct, Your Honour. And

19 there's a new line occurring.

20 Q. Witness D, in 1995 you became aware that Sefer Halilovic in a

21 newspaper article published in Oslobodjenje and subsequently republished

22 in other publications demanded in public that the Grabovica crime be

23 investigated; do you agree?

24 A. No. I heard a different account. Sefer Halilovic received an

25 order from the commander of the army, Rasim Delic - that's what I heard

Page 89

1 from the media in Sarajevo - that he should assume responsibility for an

2 investigation into the events in Grabovica. When he received the paper

3 containing the order, he tore it apart. You can ask the gentleman why he

4 did so.

5 Q. Just speak to the question I'm asking you. In 1995 --

6 A. I have.

7 Q. Just a moment. In 1995, you became aware that Halilovic called

8 for an investigation; yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you dispute that in an article published in Oslobodjenje in

11 1995 that Sefer Halilovic did call for an investigation. Do you dispute

12 that or do you accept it?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You don't know?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. It wasn't a matter of concern to you and other members of the 9th

17 Brigade that Sefer Halilovic was demanding a public inquiry into the

18 Grabovica matter? That didn't concern you?

19 A. It didn't concern me because I wasn't guilty of anything. I

20 hadn't done anything wrong. My soul is pure, and I can look at it with

21 open eyes. As for the perpetrators and as for what was done, there was

22 some sort of conflict between Mr. Halilovic and Rasim Delic. One was a

23 commander; the other one was not. Sefer Halilovic created the army and

24 then Rasim Delic arrived when he had already done all the hard work, and

25 so there was this conflict between them.

Page 90

1 Q. The man who shot Pero Maric was Musa Hota, wasn't it?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. I beg your pardon?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. You were prepared to name Musa Hota as a potential rapist in your

6 initial statement to the police in 1993 on the 31st of October; is that

7 correct?

8 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I believe --


10 MS. CHANA: I believe we went into closed session when I asked

11 some of these questions because of the witness's expression that he may be

12 compromised by giving some of these names, and I believe this is one of

13 the names that came up. Perhaps we can do this in -- in closed session

14 when it comes to the names. It's the same reason we went into closed

15 session the last time, Your Honour. We were talking about perpetrators.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, you know, I mean, for this Tribunal we're only

17 concerned about the -- the status of the witness. If this person is going

18 to testify in this Tribunal, his identity should be protected. But if you

19 say this matter is related to some privacy of a person, that might be a

20 reason.

21 Well, Mr. Morrissey, do you mind that we go into the private

22 session?

23 MR. MORRISSEY: I do object to it, Your Honour. I object to it.

24 The -- frankly, the identity of the murderer is not in doubt. It's in

25 evidence already that that man's pleaded guilty and is serving a sentence.

Page 91

1 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. I don't mean the murderer. I mean

2 that -- you know, the incident concerning of naming somebody as a rapist.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: If that's a matter that arises, he's not here,

4 he's not represented, it could be an unfairness to him. I accept that --

5 that that -- that for the -- for the purpose of me asking that question,

6 we could go into private session. But the answer doesn't have to be in

7 private session. But the allegation can be.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well -- well, we'll see, you know.

9 Let's go to the private session, please.


11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 92











11 Page 92 redacted. Private session.















Page 93

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]


5 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... and when you woke up the next

6 morning, you were aware --

7 When you woke up the next morning, you were aware that Musa Hota

8 was the killer of the -- of Pero Maric; correct?

9 A. No. No, I wasn't.

10 Q. You don't know? You don't know who that killer was? Is that

11 your position?

12 A. How can I tell you?

13 Q. Well, you were there and you saw him come and walk into the house

14 with the rifle, according to you.

15 A. A soldier.

16 Q. You're saying you can't --

17 A. A soldier.

18 Q. But you know what Musa Hota looks like, don't you? You know him;

19 correct?

20 A. I didn't mention Musa Hota at all.

21 Q. Okay. You knew Musa Hota. You knew what he looked like, didn't

22 you?

23 A. Yes, I know Musa Hota.

24 Q. Yes. So what you're saying is the person who walked in and shot

25 Pero Maric was not Musa Hota; correct?

Page 94

1 A. I have no answer to that.

2 Q. The reason you don't have an answer to it is because your whole

3 story is one packet of lies from the beginning of the end, isn't it?

4 A. No. It's for my own safety. As to who has confessed and who is

5 in prison for that, that's a different story. As to who killed Pero

6 Maric, when you asked me to tell you the names, I did -- something else

7 was being asked of me.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P4, the

9 photograph.

10 Q. Witness, you're about to be shown an exhibit here. It's a

11 photograph. And what I'm going to ask is that you be given the chance to

12 mark this photograph. And I want you to mark on this photograph where

13 were the bodies you saw on the day following the shooting of Pero Maric.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be assisted.

15 Q. Just do them with numbers. Don't worry about putting crosses.

16 Just put numbers near each body -- where each body you saw was located.

17 A. Along the road. There was one up here and then the rest were

18 along the road.

19 Q. Do you indicate to this Tribunal on your oath that you saw six

20 bodies on that day?

21 A. This was on the 10th, the 10th, in the morning, when I got up

22 around 9.00.

23 Q. Yes. This is -- according to you, it's the day following the

24 killing of Pero Maric; correct?

25 A. Yes. Yes. Pero Maric was killed in the afternoon, just as it

Page 95

1 was beginning to grow dark.

2 Q. Very well.

3 A. On the 9th.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: I tender that document.

5 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections?

6 MS. CHANA: No objections.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It's admitted into the

8 evidence.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The photograph will be Defence Exhibit D186.


11 Q. Would you just keep that in front of you now, please. Did you

12 tell the Prosecution attorney in this case, Ms. Chana, that you saw - and

13 I'll read to you from the proofing notes - did you tell Ms. Chana that

14 "The next day, on the 10th of September, I saw many bodies, at least ten,

15 in the village as I went for a walk about"? Did you tell her that just a

16 couple of days ago?

17 A. On that day, I saw five or six bodies. There may have been more

18 bodies there. They must have brought them down there, because there was

19 blood on the road and all along the road there were traces of blood and

20 there were five or six corpses. Well, I didn't actually count them.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. I don't know how many people were killed.

23 Q. No, that's okay. But just persist with the question. Did you

24 tell the attorney Ms. Chana what I just put to you, that you saw many

25 bodies" -- just a moment. Wait. "I saw many body, at least 10 in the

Page 96

1 village, as I went for a walk about"?

2 A. Five, six, ten. They were along the road. Only those along the

3 road. I don't know where the other bodies were around the village.

4 Q. Just focus on the question you're being asked. Did you put that

5 figure of 10 to Ms. Chana as her briefing notes provided to the Defence

6 and the Tribunal indicate? Did you tell her that you saw "many bodies, at

7 least 10, in the village"? Did you tell her that?

8 A. I did. But I said "up to 10." Maybe five or six. I didn't

9 really go along counting the bodies. I wasn't assigned the task of

10 counting the victims.

11 Q. So what you're saying about your comments to Ms. Chana are that

12 you told her "five or six, up to ten"? Is that what your honest claim is?

13 A. Yes. Yes. Quite honest.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I call upon the Prosecutor to

15 confirm what the situation is with this, because we have this document and

16 I don't want to put the witness in a position of unfairness.

17 JUDGE LIU: Is it necessary? I don't think so. Because, you

18 know, the proofing notes is there.


20 JUDGE LIU: There's no problem of that.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases. Yes, as the Court pleases.

22 Very well. All right.

23 Q. Now, as to the number of bodies that you saw, did you say in 1998

24 in a statement taken by Mr. Dragan Mijokovic dated the 20th of March,

25 1998, did you say this - and this is at the bottom of -- or the lower part

Page 97

1 of page 2, Your Honours, and Madam Prosecutor - did you say: "During the

2 day, I saw the body of a male civilian, I think about 50 years old, below

3 the road towards the Neretva. I know that there were several bodies next

4 to the Neretva, although I did not see them myself"?

5 Now, did you say that back in 1998 on the 20th of -- of March,

6 that you saw one body?

7 A. I don't remember. But as you just said, there were several other

8 bodies, five or six bodies. As I'm saying now, I don't recall what I said

9 seven years ago.

10 Q. Why did you tell Dragan Mijokovic in that statement that you only

11 saw one? Why did you tell him that?

12 A. You just read out that I saw several other bodies.

13 Q. No. Let there be no doubt -- I don't want to do an -- I don't

14 want to be unfair to you, Witness. I'll read it to you again so that you

15 fully understand what's being put. Okay? "During the day, I saw the body

16 of a male civilian, I think about 50 years old, below the road towards the

17 Neretva. I know that there were several bodies next to the Neretva,

18 although I did not see them myself." Now, why did you say that?

19 A. Although I didn't see them myself. There were other people who

20 saw them, I didn't see them myself. I said that I -- no, what I said was

21 I was not -- it was not me that saw them. There were other people there

22 who saw them.

23 Q. Very well. Now, in another statement made to the cantonal court

24 on the 30th of the 11th, 1998, did you say - and this is at page 4 of 5,

25 Your Honours, at the top, and there's another passage towards the bottom

Page 98

1 that I'm going to go to as well, and Madam Prosecutor as well, it's about

2 four of five lines from the top, I think -- perhaps six lines from the

3 top - did you say this: "Together with Lujinovic, I got up and not far

4 from the corner of the house on the road I saw a trace of blood. It

5 looked as if a body was pulled over the dust and left a trace of blood.

6 Lujinovic went towards his accommodation and I went towards the house

7 where Nihad Vlahovljak was staying, because my friend Nedzad Mehanovic was

8 also there. Walking there in the bushes next to the road I saw a man's

9 body. I estimated that it was an old man, between 50 and 60 years old."

10 Now, did you say that to the cantonal court and was that true,

11 that you walked over to Vlahovljak's house and saw a body on the way?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the exhibit

14 that was just tendered a minute ago, 186 -- P186. Thank you. It should be

15 the marked exhibit.

16 Q. Do you have that yet, Witness D, in front of you? Witness D,

17 would you please indicate when you have it. Do you have it now?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. Very well. Okay. Now, looking at that photograph there, do you

20 see the white house without a roof that you were billeted in, according to

21 you? Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. And --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And do you see partially hidden by the edge of the blue woodsmoke

Page 99

1 a small glimpse of Pero Maric's house among the bushes there? Do you see

2 that?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Well, on the map that you've marked here in court,

5 you've said nothing about a body on the path from your house over to Pero

6 Maric's house, have you, on this drawing that you've marked already? You

7 agree with that?

8 A. I don't agree with you. All those statements we made were

9 transcribed later on and they wrote down whatever suited them. What I'm

10 saying here is the truth. And what we said back then, we were treated

11 badly, we were locked up and beaten up by two strong men and then we had

12 to say whatever they wanted and they constructed a story that suited them.

13 That was in the MUP, the CSB, the -- whatever I said there, that's

14 nothing. What I say here is true.

15 Q. Yes. But is your position about the statement made to the

16 cantonal court that you told the truth and they wrote it down wrongly, or

17 is it that you were bashed by two strong men so that you told untruths?

18 Which is it?

19 A. First of all, they never let us read the statement. They would

20 just say, "Sign here." Whatever statement I made in the MUP of the CSB, I

21 was never allowed to read it, to look at it for five or ten minutes and

22 really read it and then sign it as my statement. All this was set up.

23 They wrote down whatever they wanted to.

24 Q. So was it set up if you mentioned that Sefer Halilovic was

25 present as the commander of Neretva 93, or was that true?

Page 100

1 A. That was true. He was the commander. He knows it well --

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. -- of Operation Neretva.

4 Q. I know. But if that information finds its way into one of these

5 statements, is that set-up information that was bashed out of you by two

6 strong men and then written down without your consent, or was that true

7 information that you honestly gave and has been faithfully recorded?

8 Which one?

9 A. First of all, all those statements that were made, it was never

10 someone of Bosniak ethnicity who questioned you. They appointed Croats

11 and Serbs to do that and they wrote down whatever they wanted. They

12 weren't aiming at Sefer Halilovic and saying, "This is true. That is

13 true." They were just adding this and that. Whoever did that, none of

14 them was a Bosniak, of the people taking statements at that time. It was

15 never a Bosniak questioning a member of the army or the 9th Brigade.

16 Q. So in that -- that hearing at the cantonal court, 30th of the

17 11th, 1998, investigating judge Ibrahim Hadzic, what ethnicity was he?

18 That's on page 1 of the -- of that statement. What ethnicity was Judge

19 Ibrahim -- investigating judge Ibrahim Hadzic?

20 A. I never made a statement before that gentleman. It was

21 Mr. Vladimir Spoljaric and Mijokovic that I made statements to. He's

22 disabled. He lost an eye. But I never made a statement to that

23 gentleman. Vladimir Spoljaric, 1993, the 26th of October to November, he

24 was in charge of those proceedings and he was in charge of all that.

25 Q. Okay. And since at the front of the record of the hearing of a

Page 101

1 witness on the 30th of the 11th, 1998, it's recorded "investigating judge,

2 Ibrahim Hadzic, and clerk, Edina Djurdjevic." Do you maintain your

3 position that you were only ever interviewed by Croats and Serbs, or would

4 you like now to reconsider that claim.

5 A. No. No, I know I only made a statement to Mr. Vladimir Spoljaric

6 and to Mijokovic.

7 Q. Very well. In your statement to Miodrag Mijokovic. You admit

8 that you were sitting at that coffee table when Pero Maric was shot, did

9 you? You never made any such admission to him?

10 A. Well, nobody was interested in clarifying the case. Nobody asked

11 you those questions, "Did you see who killed someone?" Nobody asked who

12 the murderers were. I'm telling you for the hundredth time.

13 Q. But didn't you advance the following completely false story - and

14 I'm going to read it to you in complete and then I'll ask you some

15 questions - and this is on page 1 and moving into page 2. This starts --

16 and your descriptions following what you say, following the visit by

17 Mr. Karic and Sefer Halilovic. And what you've said is that after --

18 after recording what Karic said and what Halilovic said, you then went on

19 to say this: "In the early evening of that day, Ramiz Delalic, Malco

20 Rovcanin, and Fikret Kajevic left the village and went to do a job in

21 Jablanica. Erdin Arnautovic, also known as Smrk [phoen], and I stayed in

22 the house. At about 2300 or 2300 hours, the two of us went to bed and

23 fell asleep. At about 0900 hours we got up."

24 Now, would you agree with this: You simply left out the crucial

25 matter, namely that you were present at the scene of a brutal senseless

Page 102

1 murder? You agree you've deliberately left that out?

2 A. Well, nobody asked about that. Nobody insisted on it. So it was

3 left out. Who said in any statement so and so killed someone?

4 Q. And did you go on to say: "At about 0900 hours we got up.

5 Sulejman Lujinovic came to us and asked if we knew what happened the night

6 before. Dino and I were still lying in bed and asked him what happened.

7 He replied that all the villagers had been killed that evening."

8 Is that true? Did that happen or not?

9 A. Yes, it's true. Between the 9th and the 10th, that night all the

10 civilians were killed, yes.

11 Q. No, no, no, no, no. Did you find yourself woken up by

12 Mr. Lujinovic with that dreadful, shocking news?

13 A. No. We were already awake, but we didn't know all the civilians

14 had been killed. We knew about Pero Maric but not the other civilians.

15 And when they came and we saw those traces of blood, that's when they said

16 that all the civilians had been killed. And Pero Maric was killed a day

17 earlier, the day before, the 9th, the 10th, in the afternoon or, rather,

18 at dusk.

19 Q. Did you go on to say this: "Dino and I were still lying in bed

20 and asked him what had happened. He replied that all the villagers had

21 been killed that evening. The two of us got up and asked him for details.

22 He told us that three men in uniform with their faces covered had come

23 into the house where he was sleeping and in which the owners of the house

24 had stayed and took the woman and her husband out of the house"?

25 Now, did Mr. Lujinovic really tell you that or not?

Page 103

1 A. No, I never said that. I just know that they told me that all

2 the civilians had been killed that night in the village of Grabovica.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. As for people going in with caps on their heads and taking out

5 civilians and killing them, I didn't know that. No.

6 Q. So how does it find its way into the statement that you gave to

7 Dragan Mijokovic and signed yourself?

8 A. Let me tell you. They never let you read those statements. They

9 would just give us a piece of paper to sign and that was the end of it.

10 That's how it was in Bosnia. You don't understand that. A man kills

11 another man and suddenly he's innocent. There are a hundred witnesses and

12 they all say that no murder took place, and then the man is acquitted.

13 That's Bosnia for you. It's not the European Union. It's not the

14 European Community. It's a lawless state run by people --

15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Witness D.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, there's a relatively new topic

17 coming. I think I can do two more questions on this, but it's a matter

18 for Your Honour. I think we've reached the time, so ...

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you could save it for tomorrow.


21 JUDGE LIU: That would be all right.

22 I think the hearing for today is adjourned.

23 Well, Witness, I have to warn you, as I did to the other

24 witnesses, that while you are in The Hague you're still under the oath, so

25 do not let anybody and do not talk to anybody about your testimony. You

Page 104

1 understand that?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

4 We'll see you tomorrow morning.

5 The hearing for today is adjourned.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

8 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.