1 Thursday, 10 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated].

7 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 Before we hear the witness, I have an announcement to make. The

12 Bench would like to revoke the rulings we made yesterday concerning of the

13 scheduling. Yesterday afternoon I received a notice that the

14 extraordinary Plenary is cancelled, so on Friday morning we'll return to

15 the normal scheduling. Thank you.

16 Are there any other matters that the parties would like to raise

17 at this stage?

18 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Pardon me, Your Honour. I'm sorry about that.

20 Your Honours, it was indicated to me last night by my learned

21 colleague Mr. Weiner that due to scheduling issues that the Prosecution

22 have, they would like to move the witness Eminovic forward. The plan was,

23 I think, that Mr. Salihamidzic come and then Mr. Eminovic. But because of

24 personal reasons for that witness, Mr. Eminovic, the Prosecution want to

25 bring him forward. Can I indicate that we are happy to accommodate that

1 but that the one difficulty it's going to cause us is in compiling our --

2 our list of documents that we have to put to that witness. It may be that

3 there's a delay in relation to that, and I apologise for that delay in

4 advance. But we'll do everything we can to accommodate, and we think the

5 Prosecution have given us good reasons why they need to move him forward

6 so that we'll -- we'll go along with that.

7 Could I just indicate there'll be a short -- a bit of a delay in

8 terms of giving them the list of -- and providing that list.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: I believe that if there's any change of the witness

12 order, the party who is doing that should inform the other party as early

13 as possible so that to let the other party be prepared for the case.

14 Thank you.

15 Well, could we have the witness, please.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

20 Did you have a good rest?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

1 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 WITNESS: MUSTAFA KADIC [Resumed]

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examined by Mr. Sachdeva: [Continued]

5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Kadic.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. I just want to take you back very briefly to when you told the

8 Court about being billeted in this house in Grabovica.

9 Can you tell the Court how many people were in that house with

10 you.

11 A. Approximately 30 or so.

12 Q. And were they soldiers?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And were they from your company, in the 2nd Independent

15 Battalion?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, yesterday you told us that you saw Celo and his soldiers at

18 a line-up the day after you arrived, and then you described that there was

19 intermittent shooting that day. I want you now to cast your mind back to

20 that evening, and if you can, tell me whether your soldiers spoke to

21 Celo's soldiers, if they did at all.

22 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, just a short objection about

23 the timing of the line-up. I'm not sure that the witness indeed indicated

24 that the line-up would have taken place the day after he arrived. I think

25 that's a matter that should be clarified with the witness.

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We heard some evidence about the line-up, but

2 I'm not sure, you know, which one it is. And maybe you could ask some

3 questions about the time to this witness.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: I'm ask the witness to clarify, Your Honour.

5 Q. That line-up we spoke about, when did it occur, in relation to

6 your arrival?

7 A. We arrived on that day after noon. On the following day, Celo's

8 men came and the line-up was the following morning.

9 Q. On that day of the line-up, in the evening, did your soldiers

10 speak to Celo's soldiers?

11 A. No. We did not have any contacts with that unit.

12 Q. Well, in that evening of -- of the day of the line-up, what were

13 your soldiers doing?

14 A. They were told not to go away from the houses, not to go far from

15 the houses, to stay close to them.

16 Q. So your soldiers and yourself were in and around your house; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And that evening, what did your soldiers do in the house?

20 A. I didn't understand you.

21 Q. Did you have anything to eat that evening?

22 A. We had packed lunches, and we also received the meat that the

23 army prepared for us.

24 Q. Did you eat your packed lunches and the meat in the evening of

25 that -- that day, the day of the line-up?

1 A. Some of the soldiers were sitting in the meadow across from the

2 house on that evening.

3 Q. Roughly what time was that?

4 A. 9.00 in the evening maybe.

5 Q. Now, when your soldiers were sitting there in the meadow, were

6 you there as well?

7 A. No, I wasn't. I was in the house where we were billeted.

8 Q. Do you know who your soldiers were speaking to?

9 A. A few soldiers from Celo's unit dropped by, that told them that

10 they would be shooting a little and that they shouldn't pay attention to

11 that because they had nothing to do with them.

12 Q. Well, how did you know about this conversation?

13 A. On the following morning, Zdenko Jelisic told me that. He was

14 one of those lads sitting on the grass.

15 Q. And when was Zdenko Jelisic staying?

16 A. In the same house.

17 Q. All right. Let's move to the following morning. That morning,

18 did you go anywhere outside of Grabovica?

19 A. On that morning, we went to the house where our command and

20 commander were. We were lined up because the previous evening we were

21 told that we were supposed to go to Dreznica, where an action was supposed

22 to start.

23 Q. Where were you lined up in the morning?

24 A. In front of the house where the commander was billeted.

25 Q. And what time was that?

1 A. 7.00 in the morning, I believe.

2 Q. So after that meeting with the commander, where did you go?

3 A. Along the old road leading up to the tunnel, at the exit out of

4 Grabovica.

5 Q. Now, as I said, I'm going to show you a photograph soon and I'll

6 ask you to point out that road for the benefit of the Court. But while

7 you were travelling along that road, did you see anything in particular?

8 A. We saw a dead woman on the road. Two days before that, we had

9 spoken to her. We were billeted in her house, actually.

10 Q. What was the dead woman wearing?

11 A. I remember that she had a short-sleeved dress on. I can't

12 remember any details.

13 Q. Well, how far were you from her when you saw her?

14 A. Not more than two metres.

15 Q. Were you able to establish or -- well, were you able to establish

16 how she was killed?

17 A. On the road, there were pieces of her head. I couldn't see any

18 other injuries.

19 Q. Were there any weapons in and around her?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Well, as you carried on that road, did you see anything else?

22 A. A little bit lower, there was another body, but it was not on the

23 road. It was some 15 metres away from the road, by the lake.

24 Q. Was this body of a man or a woman?

25 A. A man.

1 Q. Roughly how old was this man? If you can decipher.

2 A. We couldn't see how old he was. His face was facing the water,

3 so it's hard for me to say how old he was.

4 Q. Well, were you able to see what kind of clothes he was wearing?

5 A. Ordinary work clothes.

6 Q. Well, when you say "ordinary work clothes," do you mean civilian

7 or military clothes?

8 A. Civilian. Civilian work clothes. A pair of trousers, a jacket.

9 Q. Apart from the lady and the man that you've just spoken about,

10 did you know of any other civilians that were killed in Grabovica?

11 A. Miroslav Masal told me about another civilian who had been killed

12 when we were in the tunnel. As we passed those two dead bodies, we spent

13 the whole day and the whole night in the tunnel. And when we were talking

14 about what had happened, Masal told me that he had seen another civilian

15 across the road from the house where we were previously lined up.

16 Q. Who was staying in that house where you were lined up?

17 A. The command of the 2nd Battalion was there in that house. I

18 remember that Adnan Solakovic and Samir Pezo, his brother-in-law, were

19 there.

20 Q. What did Miroslav Masal tell you about this civilian that he saw?

21 A. After we saw the killed civilians, we talked to each other about

22 what had happened. Everybody saw these two killed civilians. We passed

23 by them. And then he said that he saw another one, a taller one, who was

24 in the shrubs or in the bushes, so that not everybody could see that

25 civilian.

1 Q. Did he tell you how he knew this -- this body was of a civilian?

2 A. It was a man wearing civilian clothes.

3 Q. All right. You told us that you stayed in the tunnel. Where did

4 you go after that?

5 A. We were supposed to go to Dreznica, from the tunnel along the old

6 road to Dreznica. Since that road was under the constant HVO shelling, we

7 could not take that road. We had to climb the mountain and cross it in

8 order to get to Dreznica. In any case, we did arrive in Dreznica.

9 Q. Did you return to Grabovica?

10 A. We returned to Grabovica two days and one night later, having

11 spent two nights -- two days and one night on that mountain that I can't

12 remember the name of.

13 Q. And after your return to Grabovica, where did you go, if you went

14 anywhere?

15 A. We returned to Grabovica during the night. There were lorries

16 waiting for us there. We got onto the lorries and went to Zuka's base.

17 And after that, to Sarajevo.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, with your leave, I'd like to show the

20 witness -- I think it's -- P4, photograph P4.

21 Q. Mr. Kadic, can you see the photograph on your screen?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is that a photograph of?

24 A. Grabovica village.

25 Q. Can you see the place where you and your fellow soldiers were

1 staying?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you point to it, please.

4 A. This is the house, here.

5 Q. Okay. You've circled that house. Can you -- can you draw the

6 figure number "1" just by it, please.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And similarly, can you circle the house where Adnan Solakovic was

9 staying and put the figure number "2" there.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Now, do you see the place where you saw Celo and his soldiers at

12 the line-up? Well, firstly, do you see that place there?

13 A. Just a moment. Yes, I can see it.

14 Q. Can you also circle that and put the number "3" there, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Now, if you can, I'd like you to with a dotted line just mark the

17 route that you took that morning on your way to Dreznica.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Can you just go a bit further, please. If you'd just take the

20 dotted line further, or put an arrow at the end.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. All right. Now, if you can, can you circle the area where you

23 saw the dead woman on your way to Dreznica.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. And can you place a figure "4" there, please.

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. And can you do the same for the man that you saw in the water.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. And can you place a figure "5" above the circle.

5 A. [Marks].

6 MR. SACHDEVA: I have nothing further, Your Honours. I'd like to

7 tender that into evidence, please.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I guess there's no objection?

9 MR. METTRAUX: No objection.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The number is 265.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Any cross? Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Yes. Thank you. Good morning, Your Honour.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Mettraux:

16 Q. Good morning, witness. My name is Guenael Mettraux. I'm

17 co-counsel for Sefer Halilovic.

18 I'd like to ask you a few general questions to start with about

19 the 2nd Independent Battalion. Prior to your being sent to Herzegovina,

20 the 2nd Independent Battalion had not been assigned a particular part of

21 the front line to defend around Sarajevo. Am I correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The 2nd Independent in fact operated more as a light and mobile

24 battalion which would be sent to various parts of the front line where

25 there was a need for reinforcement; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And from July 1993 onwards, the 2nd Independent Battalion was

3 also sent to perform military operations outside of Sarajevo.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And part of the 2nd Independent Battalion was sent, for instance,

6 to Igman, Bjelasnica or, in November 1993, to Bradina; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. In all of those assignments, the 2nd Independent performed very

9 well and acquired a reputation as a good fighting unit; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the summer and the autumn of 1993, the Independent --

12 2nd Independent Battalion consisted of approximately 200 soldiers.

13 A. I think so, yes, approximately.

14 Q. You've indicated that the commander of that battalion was a

15 person named Adnan Solakovic.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. He was known as a brave fighter and he was respected and obeyed

18 by his men; isn't that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It was his habit as a commander to take part in military

21 operations together with his men?

22 A. Not always.

23 Q. But he did in the case of the operation in Herzegovina.

24 A. He was on the ground in Herzegovina, but he was in the command

25 throughout this time. He did not go into action with his men.

1 Q. And as far as the reputation of the battalion was concerned, as

2 you pointed out earlier, it had a good reputation and it was not known in

3 any way as a criminal battalion, or it did not have a criminal reputation.

4 A. No, it didn't.

5 Q. Yesterday in your evidence in chief you indicated to the

6 Prosecutor that Mr. Solakovic was the commander of the 2nd Independent

7 Battalion and that this battalion was in turn a part of the 1st Corps,

8 which in turn was commanded by a person named Vahid Karavelic; is that so?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You've also indicated yesterday that you didn't know who had

11 deployed the 2nd Independent Battalion but you indicated to the

12 Prosecution that you were told to go to Herzegovina by your commander,

13 Senad Sakovic, when he returned from a meeting - and I quote - "with the

14 commander"; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the commander which you were referring to was the commander

17 of the 1st Corps, Mr. Vahid Karavelic?

18 A. I don't know who attended the meeting after which our commander

19 transmitted the order to us. All I know is that Senad Sakovic transmitted

20 this order to us.

21 Q. So you don't know, sir, who gave that order to Senad Sakovic; is

22 that your evidence?

23 A. Yes, that's right.

24 Q. Not all members of the 2nd Independent Battalion were sent to

25 Herzegovina, sir. Only about 100 or 120 of them were sent; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it is your battalion commander, Adnan Solakovic, who decided

4 which soldier would go and that choice would in turn be forwarded to you

5 by your platoon commander, Mr. Sakovic; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would like now to take you to another part of your evidence

8 which you've given earlier to the Prosecution. You understood as you

9 arrived in Herzegovina that your battalion was to be resubordinated to

10 Zuka's unit or Zulfikar's unit; is that correct?

11 A. I didn't know that at the time. Later on I learned that we were

12 supposed to be resubordinated and be commanded by Zulfikar, yes.

13 Q. But your commander, Adnan Solakovic, resisted the resubordination

14 to Zuka's; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And as a result of his resisting this resubordination, you were

17 actually not resubordinated to Zuka's unit and remained independent; is

18 that correct, sir?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. You also explained that you stopped at Zuka's base on your

21 arrival in Jablanica. As you arrived, you were greeted by men from Zuka's

22 unit; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That was the first time that you were informed that you would

25 stay in the village of Grabovica.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. A number of -- a number of members of Zuka's unit accompanied you

3 to the village of Grabovica as you went there; is that correct?

4 A. I don't know that.

5 Q. But as you arrived in Grabovica, you were told that three houses

6 had been provided for your accommodation; is that correct?

7 A. When we arrived in Grabovica, our commander told us what house we

8 were to be billeted in, where the 3rd Company was to be billeted. That's

9 what I know.

10 Q. Sir, when you referred to "our commander," you referred to

11 Mr. Sakovic, your platoon commander; is that correct -- or company

12 commander; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes, Senad Sakovic.

14 Q. So it was not for you to go and look for a house. He told you

15 what house you were supposed to billet yourself in; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Sir, if I've understood your evidence properly in chief, there

18 were in fact three different houses in which members of the

19 2nd Independent Battalion were billeted; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. In the first house -- that could be the first house at the

22 entrance of the village which you've indicated Adnan Solakovic had been

23 billeted; is that correct

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And other officers of the 2nd Independent Battalion had been

1 accommodated with him.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You already indicated that Samir Pezo stayed in the same house as

4 Adnan Solakovic, but there were other individuals, such as Jasmin Panjeta;

5 is that correct?

6 A. His nickname was -- or rather, he had a nickname, so I didn't

7 really know that that was his name.

8 Q. Was his nickname Pike?

9 A. Yes, that's right, Pike.

10 Q. Was Pike in the same house as Adnan Solakovic?

11 A. I think he was. I can't be certain, but I think he was. Pike

12 was always at the command, so it would have been logical for him to be

13 billeted there.

14 Q. And it would have been logical as well for Zakir Okovic to be

15 billeted in that house?

16 A. Zakir Okovic? Yes, it would have been logical, but he went to do

17 reconnaissance, so to what extent he was present there, I couldn't say.

18 Q. What about Haris Svrakic, also known as Pilot? Was he in that

19 house?

20 A. I think he did, yes.

21 Q. Then, sir, there was a second house in which you resided. And

22 you've indicated with a number "1" on the picture that was shown to you by

23 the Prosecution. You've indicated yesterday that as you arrived, the

24 house was empty of its owners; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You've also indicated that on the day when you arrived, you

2 meet -- sorry, you met the owner of that house and had a conversation with

3 her; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That person did not suggest, did she, that she had somehow been

6 expelled from her house or that she was otherwise unhappy of having left

7 that house?

8 A. No. All she told us was that that was her house and that she was

9 temporarily staying in another house with some other people. That's all

10 she told us.

11 Q. And she also told you that the furniture which had been in her

12 house had been taken by soldiers, didn't she?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But she didn't tell you, did she, when those furnitures had been

15 taken by soldiers?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You've indicated, I believe, that around 30 soldiers from the

18 2nd Independent Battalion stayed together with you in that house. And I

19 would like to ask you to think back. And I will ask you -- I will put to

20 you the name of a number of people, and I'd like you to tell me whether

21 those people were or were not with you in that house at the time. Sakovic

22 Senad, was he in that house with you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What about Mustafa Mujo Karic? Was he with you in that house?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What about Jelisic Zdenko? Was he in that house, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Miroslav Masal? Was he in that house with you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What about Ivisic Zvonko?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Gobelic Dzevad?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. Zoran Kovacevic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then, sir, if I'm correct, there was a third house in the village

12 where members of the 2nd Independent Battalion were staying; is that

13 correct?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the reply.

15 MR. METTRAUX:

16 Q. Sir, could you repeat your answer. The interpreter could not

17 pick it up.

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution

21 Exhibit number 4, P4 again.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, you need the original picture?

23 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, please.

24 JUDGE LIU: But not -- yes.

25 MR. METTRAUX:

1 Q. Sir, can you see that third house on the picture which you have

2 in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please circle it with the pen, number "1" next to it.

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Sir, can you see on the right-hand side from the house in which

7 you were staying, a rather smallish white or grey house without a roof?

8 Can you see that house, sir?

9 A. In fact, yes, it doesn't have a roof on this picture.

10 Q. And it didn't have a roof at the time either, sir; is that

11 correct?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. Can you remember, sir, whether anyone was living in that house at

14 the time of the events in the village of Grabovica? Can you remember

15 that?

16 A. No.

17 Q. No, no one lived there; or no, you can't remember?

18 A. No, I can't remember.

19 Q. Can you remember seeing people entering or getting out of the

20 house at the time?

21 A. At that time, people left their houses very seldom, at all.

22 Q. Very well. Am I correct, sir, in --

23 MR. METTRAUX: First I would like perhaps to tender that

24 document.

25 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections.

1 MR. SACHDEVA: No objection.

2 JUDGE LIU: So it's admitted into the evidence.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

4 THE REGISTRAR: It's document 266.

5 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

6 Q. Sir, is that correct -- am I correct in suggesting to you that

7 you remained in the village of Grabovica at all times; that is, from the

8 moment when you arrived in Grabovica until the time you left for combat?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Sir, you did not go to Jablanica at any time or did you otherwise

11 get out of the village during that period.

12 A. No.

13 Q. At all times, you stayed in the -- in your house most of the time

14 and infrequently you would go on the balcony of that house or in front of

15 the house; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. In front of the house, there was a plateau, and that's

17 where we sat most of the time.

18 Q. You've also given evidence yesterday to this Trial Chamber that

19 as you arrived, the atmosphere in the village was peaceful; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. There was no conflict with the locals and, in fact, they received

23 you well.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And there was no indication at that time that anything bad would

1 happen in the village.

2 A. No, there wasn't.

3 Q. You've indicated, sir, that the day after you arrived in

4 Grabovica, members of Celo's unit arrived in the village as well; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That was the only unit that arrived in the village on that day;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And aside from the 2nd Independent Battalion and Celo's unit,

11 there were no other units from Sarajevo billeted in the village; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you were aware of the fact that Caco's soldiers had been

15 billeted in Jablanica; is that correct?

16 A. We knew that they had arrived, but we didn't know where they were

17 billeted.

18 Q. Very well. Yesterday you've indicated in your evidence in chief

19 that Celo's unit was one of those units - and I quote your words - "that

20 could not be placed under the army command." Now, I have a question about

21 that, sir: In giving that evidence yesterday, were you in fact or in

22 substance reiterating a comment that you made to the Prosecution during

23 your proofing session of last week where you said that Celo's unit - and

24 again I quote - "had a reputation of not obeying orders"? Is that what

25 you were telling the Trial Chamber yesterday?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what you were in fact suggesting or stating was that some

3 members of this unit apparently considered that they could decide at times

4 whether to obey or not to obey orders which came from outside the brigade.

5 Is that so, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But despite this apparent lack of discipline, Celo's unit was

8 known as a good and strong fighting unit in Sarajevo. They were much

9 admired, in fact, by many of the inhabitants of Sarajevo at the time.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You've also indicated, sir, in your evidence yesterday that there

12 were a number of refugees in the village of Grabovica at the time when you

13 came to the village, and you've also indicated to this Trial Chamber that

14 you met one of those refugees, an old man who had been a judge in

15 Sarajevo. Can you remember that evidence, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell this Trial Chamber what this old man told you as you

18 met him in the village.

19 A. He came to us. He asked us where we were from, what unit. And

20 he told us that he was from Mostar and that before the war, he had worked

21 as a judge in Sarajevo, that he had been imprisoned in the Dretelj camp,

22 that he had been exchanged, and that he was accommodated on the left bank

23 of the Neretva.

24 Q. What is the Dretelj camp, sir?

25 A. A camp where the HVO army imprisoned Muslim people.

1 Q. Did that old man tell you what happened to him in that camp as he

2 was detained?

3 A. He told us that he had been maltreated and tortured in various

4 ways.

5 Q. And were other refugees or former camp inmates -- sorry, I'll --

6 I'll withdraw that question.

7 Did you meet any other refugees during the time or former camp

8 inmates during the time when you were in the village of Grabovica?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you see any of them?

11 A. No, none except the man we talked to.

12 Q. There is another issue, sir, that I would like to discuss with

13 you. As you arrived in the village of Grabovica, as you described it,

14 there was no checkpoint at the entrance of the village, was there?

15 A. We were on trucks. I didn't see any checkpoint.

16 Q. But what you know for certain, sir, is that one was set up after

17 members of Celo's unit had arrived in the village; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. There had been a meeting between the commanding officers of the

20 2nd Independent Battalion and Celo's unit when it was decided that such a

21 checkpoint should be set up; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that's what Senad Sakovic told you when he came back from

24 that meeting.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And that checkpoint, sir, was manned by two men at all times:

2 One from the 2nd Independent Battalion and one from the 9th Brigade.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as far as you could tell, it was not reinforced at any stage

5 during your stay in the village.

6 A. No.

7 Q. You didn't see or hear about anyone being prevented from entering

8 the village at that time.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Sir, this morning you recounted an incident which was reported to

11 you by, I believe, Zvonko Ivisic about other soldiers coming to your

12 soldiers or to members of the 2nd Independent Battalion and telling them

13 that there would be a little shooting and that they shouldn't worry so

14 much about it. Do you remember that?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. SACHDEVA: Just a minor objection, Your Honour. I think the

17 name of the person who told the witness is -- isn't correct.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, it's -- I thank the Prosecution. I think

19 it's Zdenko Jelisic.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did Mr. Jelisic give you the name -- the names or nicknames of

24 those three -- two or three individuals that came to this group of

25 soldiers? Did he know them?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did he describe them to you?

3 A. No, he didn't describe them to me either. He simply said that

4 they were from Celo's unit.

5 Q. Thereafter, sir, you in fact heard the sound of shooting; is that

6 correct?

7 A. He didn't tell me that -- when the shooting started afterwards,

8 he told me that they had come. But as for the shooting, there was

9 sporadic shooting all the time.

10 Q. And such sporadic shooting, sir, was not unusual, was it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. However, sir, because of the rising tension in the village, a

13 number of non-Bosniak members of the 2nd Independent Battalion were taken

14 to Solakovic's house; isn't that so?

15 A. There were Croats and Serbs in this house too, but it was said

16 that they should not be called by name and that they should not be given

17 guard duty, that they should be given nicknames.

18 Q. So those Serbs and Croats in fact stayed in your house.

19 A. Yes, there were some in my house. Yes.

20 Q. And there was no line-up at that point where Adnan Solakovic told

21 you what was happening in the village and gave you orders or gave you

22 weapons at that stage, was there, sir?

23 A. No, there was no line-up.

24 Q. Just a short matter of timing. You've indicated, I believe, that

25 the 9th or the -- Celo's unit arrived the day after you had arrived; is

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And that it is the day after they had arrived that you saw Celo

4 coming back in the village and organising a line-up of 20 or 30 men; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you left for Dreznica on that same day, sir; is that correct?

8 A. I didn't understand.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

10 MR. SACHDEVA: Sorry, Your Honour, I think the evidence was that

11 they left for Dreznica the next -- the following day.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. METTRAUX:

14 MR. METTRAUX: Well, we lost the witness.

15 Q. Sir, did you leave the village on that very same day or was it

16 the next day that you left for the village?

17 A. It was in the morning of the following day that we left.

18 Q. Was -- were weapons taken from you at any stage during your stay

19 in the village of Grabovica, or did you keep your weapons with you at all

20 stages?

21 A. We had weapons.

22 Q. And you kept them at all times.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And on the morning, I think you've indicated at around 7.00 a.m.,

25 on the morning when you left, Adnan Solakovic lined you up and told you

1 about leaving for combat. That was the only line-up, as far as you can

2 tell and as far as you could see, the only line-up organised by Adnan

3 Solakovic during that period. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. And all of you -- all members of the 2nd Independent Battalion

6 left on that occasion. No one was left behind in Grabovica.

7 A. Some of the men remained in Grabovica. I don't know how many.

8 Some did. Some stayed back. Very few men stayed behind.

9 Q. Sir, during your stay in Grabovica, you never saw Vehbija Karic,

10 did you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Nor, as a matter of fact, did you see Caco, Zuka, or Sefer

13 Halilovic.

14 A. No. Nobody but the two of them.

15 Q. And no member of your battalion told you at the time that they

16 had seen Mr. Halilovic.

17 A. Not at the time, no.

18 Q. No one came back in the house from the balcony or from outside

19 telling you, "Hey, I've just seen Sefer Halilovic passing by." That

20 didn't happen.

21 A. No, I -- I wouldn't know that.

22 Q. And that's a fact, sir, that you told the Prosecutor

23 investigator, Mr. Nikolai Mikhailov, when he interviewed you. You

24 said, "I didn't see Sefer Halilovic in the village and no one else in my

25 battalion told me that he had seen Sefer Halilovic"; isn't that correct?

1 A. No, it's correct. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, you were in the -- in the village at the time. And you've

3 indicated that you saw a number of dead bodies at the time but that you

4 spent most of the time in your houses. Would it be possible, according to

5 you, that refugees might have taken part in the killing in Grabovica?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Sachdeva.

7 MR. SACHDEVA: It's a speculative question.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's a speculative question, and the witness

9 also testified that he did not know there were refugees in that village.

10 MR. METTRAUX: I will -- I will reformulate it then. The

11 question was poorly put.

12 Q. After having discussed with members of your battalion, did you

13 hear or did anyone from your battalion suggest that refugees might have

14 taken part in the killing?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Sir, the crimes that were committed in Grabovica at the time,

17 they had nothing to do with the operation; is that correct?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And, in fact, it had nothing to do with what you personally or

20 your battalion were fighting for; namely, a multi-ethnic Bosnia. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And, in fact, that was totally contrary to what you were fighting

24 for and believing in.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And it is still difficult to understand for you how one part of

2 the Bosnian army would have to protect some of its members from another

3 part of the Bosnian army; isn't that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. You've indicated, I believe, that after two or three days in

6 combat you were ordered back to Sarajevo; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And when you came back to Grabovica, all of the bodies or at

9 least the bodies that you had seen had disappeared from the village; isn't

10 that correct?

11 A. We came back during the night, so I can't say whether they had

12 been removed or whether they were still there. It was dark. I couldn't

13 see.

14 Q. But you didn't see any bodies, did you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And there were no other troops present in the village at the

17 time.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Finally, I would like to ask you a short number of questions

20 about what happened in October 1993. In -- at the end of October 1993,

21 there was a big operation in which many of those involved in the Grabovica

22 operation were arrested. That operation came to be known as Trebevic. Do

23 you know about that operation, sir?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you know about it from hearing it from the press, isn't that

1 correct, from the media.

2 A. From the media, yes. And also, we were at the base at the time

3 and we were told that we had to maintain the state of combat readiness

4 because this was happening in the town, that there was a showdown with

5 those units.

6 Q. But you, sir, were not arrested during that operation.

7 A. Nobody from our unit was.

8 Q. Well, you've anticipated my last two questions, and I thank you

9 very much, sir.

10 MR. METTRAUX: That would be our questions. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

12 Any re-exam?

13 MR. SACHDEVA: Just -- just one, Your Honour, one question.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Sachdeva:

15 Q. Mr. Kadic, in response to counsel for the Defence, you told him

16 that the non-Bosniak members of your unit were given nicknames. Do you

17 recall saying that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Why were they given nicknames?

20 A. For their -- their personal safety.

21 Q. But why were they in danger?

22 A. This is what we were told at the time, that we shouldn't call

23 them by their real names, that they should be given nicknames. If

24 something should happen, it was not advisable at the time to call them by

25 some other names.

1 Q. Well, what -- what could happen?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Well, it's a tiny bit speculative, I think.

4 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so. I don't -- I think there's one

5 step further from the previous question. This question is allowed.

6 MR. SACHDEVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Sorry. What could happen?

8 A. I didn't know that, but I suppose that the command or the

9 commanders held a meeting and that's what they decided. We were forbidden

10 to move around and to socialise with that unit that had arrived, and

11 that's why they told us not to call these people by their own names, I

12 suppose.

13 Q. So when you say that they were given these nicknames for their

14 personal safety, who could have jeopardised their personal safety?

15 A. Probably some people from that unit that arrived at the time.

16 Q. Which unit are you talking about?

17 A. Celo's unit.

18 MR. SACHDEVA: Nothing further, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Judge El Mahdi.

21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to clarify one

24 point. Actually, your answer to a question that was put to you. The

25 question was - and I'll quote in English - [In English] Did you see Caco,

1 Zuka, or Sefer Halilovic - [No interpretation] - [In English] No, nobody

2 but the two of them. [Interpretation] Do you remember that answer?

3 A. Yes, I do. I saw Adnan Solakovic and Ramiz Delalic, and that's

4 who I meant.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So the two that you saw were

6 who?

7 A. Adnan Solakovic and Ramiz Delalic.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I have another

9 question for you, sir. This question is relative to when you said that

10 you kept your weapons while you were billeted in the house that you showed

11 to us in the photo. Did all the soldiers that were with you keep their

12 weapons as well?

13 A. Yes, all the soldiers. However, once we were billeted in the

14 house, the weapons were in the house. And as people left the house,

15 nobody took any arms with them.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But you kept the weapons.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did you have ammunition as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's question.

23 MR. METTRAUX: No questions, thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Well, I think our channel got confused.

25 [French interpretation on the English Channel)

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. At this point, are there any other

2 questions?

3 MR. METTRAUX: No questions.

4 MR. SACHDEVA: No questions.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

6 Well, witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

7 your evidence. We wish you a very pleasant journey back home. The usher

8 will show you out of the room.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE LIU: Are we continuing with the next witness, or are we

11 going to have a break? And are there any submissions from the Prosecution

12 concerning this next witness? Any protective measures?

13 MR. SACHDEVA: None, Your Honour, no.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Yes.

16 MR. METTRAUX: The only submission from the Defence would be that

17 a break would be welcomed at this stage.

18 JUDGE LIU: Oh, thank you very much.

19 So we'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter to 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Ms. Chana, are you ready for your next witness?

23 MS. CHANA: Yes, I am, Your Honour. There's one matter I would

24 like to raise before the witness comes in, and that would be that in

25 respect of those documents, Your Honour, that I was supposed to tell you

1 the one that the Defence tendered through Jusuf Jasarevic, the Defence has

2 no objections to the ones which were tendered by the Defence.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, are you saying on behalf on the Defence?

4 MS. CHANA: I mean, sorry, the Prosecution has no objection.

5 Sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Oh, thank you very much.

7 MS. CHANA: They're Defence documents

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 MS. CHANA: The next witness can now be called in, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So the next witness is 89(F).

11 MS. CHANA: It's 89(F) yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections?

13 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning once again, Your Honour. No, there

14 is no objection on the part of the Defence as to this witness being

15 89(F)'d as it goes. But this is simply a number of matters which we would

16 like to put on the record in relation to this.

17 The first one is that the Prosecution is going to seek to tender

18 a new statement, as it goes, of this witness which was taken recently, and

19 we're very grateful to the Prosecution for giving it to us in a very

20 timely fashion, Your Honour.

21 There is simply one issue: We believe that where a new statement

22 of a witness is taken and signed by that witness and then tendered

23 pursuant to that Rule, it would fall under Rule 66(A), in terms of

24 disclosure, which means in turn that such a statement would have to be

25 provided in a language which the accused understands. We've informed

1 Mr. Halilovic about the content of this statement, and he has waived his

2 right to receive a translation of that document in B/C/S, but we would be

3 grateful to the Prosecution if they intend to tender such a document again

4 in the future to provide us as well with a B/C/S translation.

5 There is a second matter which we would like to raise in relation

6 to this, and this is a concern which Your Honour has raised in the past,

7 and the Defence notes that the Prosecution has asked for protective

8 measures on no less than six occasions and has asked to tender its

9 evidence in chief pursuant to 89(F) on three occasions. It was granted on

10 two.

11 The Defence mentioned that fact because it is quite concerned

12 about the rights of Mr. Halilovic and the public interest that there is in

13 a public trial, and we think that Mr. Halilovic's right to -- to a public

14 trial should be guaranteed and that those applications should be limited

15 to the absolutely necessary.

16 Finally -- or not finally, as a matter of fact, but further, the

17 Defence would like to point out that evidence which is tendered in written

18 form as opposed to being given orally in court should be given less

19 weight, as it goes, than evidence which would have been given orally.

20 The final point that we would like to raise is this: It is the

21 Defence submission that where the Prosecution has decided to tender its

22 evidence in chief in written form through a statement, the Rules on

23 re-examination should be interpreted particularly strictly in such a

24 context and the Defence should not be permitted to achieve in

25 re-examination what it declined to do in chief. And that would be all of

1 our submissions in that respect and -- I meant the Prosecutor. I'm

2 suffering from the same failure or failing as my colleague from the other

3 side. I meant that the Prosecution should not be permitted to do so.

4 And I'm grateful. And as I pointed out earlier, we have no

5 objection to this particular witness being heard pursuant to 89(F).

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

7 And just one thing to clarify: You said that there is a new

8 statement which fell into the scope of the Rule 66(A). But to my

9 understanding, it is not a new statement. It's just a summary of all the

10 previous statements into one document. So I wonder whether this kind of

11 practice -- I mean, the summary, falls into the Rule 66(A).

12 MR. METTRAUX: Well, we -- we are in your hands in that regard,

13 Your Honour. We believe that this is a new statement, insofar as it is

14 not only a summary of the witness's evidence, insofar as the source is

15 mentioned in that documents are concerned. There are a number of issues

16 and a number of facts which have been left out by the Prosecution. Your

17 Honour is quite right to point out that some of the paragraphs in that

18 document are merely what would appear to be cut and pasted from other

19 statements, and we have no problem with that. But to the extent that the

20 evidence would vary - and it has at least in one relatively important

21 respect - or to the extent that a number of facts or matters are being

22 left out by the party tendering that document, we would submit that this

23 would constitute a new statement.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think, you know, it's purely a theoretical

25 issue and we'll deal with it at a later stage. But now we have the

1 witness waiting outside.

2 Could we have the witness now.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

7 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

11 Ms. Chana.

12 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours.

13 WITNESS: SABAN NEZIRIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Chana:

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Saban. Could you please give us your full

17 name.

18 A. Saban Neziric.

19 Q. Mr. Neziric, I would like to show you a statement. Would you

20 please look at it and indicate to Your Honours whether that is your

21 signature on each page of this particular statement.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was this read out to you in a language that you understood?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you confirm the contents of the statement and the veracity?

1 A. I did.

2 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, I would like to tender this into

3 evidence, please.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

5 Any objections?

6 MR. METTRAUX: No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

8 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Your Honours --

10 JUDGE LIU: And Madam Court Deputy.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be 267.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I will give a short summary of what

14 evidence this witness testifies about. Your Honours, his name is Saban

15 Neziric.

16 Q. And in November 1992, you started to work in the security of the

17 hydroelectric plant in Grabovica as a guard.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... building was situated on the

20 left side of the Neretva River, and you could see the right part of the

21 village of Grabovica which had Croat residents.

22 In autumn, some troops from Sarajevo arrived and they were

23 billeted on the right side of the Neretva River in Grabovica. Sometime in

24 September, you were on duty guarding the office building on the left side

25 of the Neretva River and heard sounds of shooting coming from the right

1 side of the village. The shooting continued for some time and Zuka, which

2 is Alispago Zulfikar, was called to inform him about the shooting and for

3 him to take some action.

4 After ten minutes of this call, Zuka's car came to the right side

5 of the Neretva. When Zuka's car was in Grabovica on the right side of the

6 Neretva, the shooting stopped. When Zuka's car left --

7 Sorry, Your Honour. When Zuka's car left, the shooting stopped

8 at that time.

9 The same day, you went to visit the village and learned that some

10 civilians in Grabovica on both sides of the river had been killed.

11 MR. METTRAUX: I'm sorry, Your Honour, to interrupt. I think the

12 transcript suggests that when Zuka's car left, the shooting stopped. I

13 understand from the witness statement that that's when the shooting

14 started.

15 MS. CHANA: Yes, sorry, Your Honour. It was obviously a --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MS. CHANA: -- typo in my thing. Yes, can I correct that for the

18 record.

19 Q. When Zuka's car was in Grabovica, the shooting stopped and when

20 Zuka's car left, the shooting started.

21 I'm obliged to learned counsel for pointing it out.

22 The same day the witness entered the village and learned that

23 some civilians in Grabovica on both sides of the river had been killed.

24 You also on the left side of the Neretva River saw a dead body of

25 a male. Some days later, you witnessed the same corpse burnt and this

1 time noticed a hole at the back of his head.

2 You also found a body buried in the ground. Sometime later you

3 saw human -- a human hand appearing from the ground.

4 On one occasion after the events in Grabovica you entered the

5 toilet of a new railway station and noticed three human skulls in that

6 toilet.

7 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, it's not exactly an objection,

8 but the Defence would just like to understand what -- what the purpose of

9 this summary is, because we have already been provided with a written

10 summary or what the Prosecution purports to be a written summary of his

11 own evidence, and we're being given a second version of that evidence. So

12 we simply -- we understand or we think we should understand the

13 Prosecution practice as merely being a summary for the -- for the purpose

14 of the Trial Chamber and that the witness will not be asked to adopt what

15 is being read out to him at this stage, and we would just like to clarify

16 this matter at that stage.

17 MS. CHANA: Your Honours.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MS. CHANA: This is a short summary from the statement for the

20 record and for the public to know what evidence this particular witness is

21 going to testify about. I've only got one line left and that's the end of

22 my summary, Your Honour. It's exactly from the 89(F) statement, Your

23 Honour, not a thing extra has been add or deleted.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe that is the normal practice in

25 applying the Rule 89(F). That summary should be very concise and should

1 be very short.

2 You may proceed, Ms. Chana.

3 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

4 Now, you also will state that you met Zulfikar Alispago before

5 the events in Grabovica and you said -- and Zulfikar Alispago said to you

6 that he wanted to look after the Croats in Grabovica and wanted to send

7 doctors and, in fact, doctors did come on a regular basis to Grabovica.

8 Your Honour, with that, I -- my examination-in-chief is

9 concluded.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 Any cross-examination?

12 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Mettraux:

14 Q. Good morning, witness. My name is Guenael Mettraux, and I'm

15 appearing as co-counsel for Sefer Halilovic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Your responsibility, sir, in the office of the hydroelectric

18 plant in Grabovica was to guard the office building, which was on the left

19 side of the village, as well as to patrol the territory around that

20 office; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you would work in shifts of two people.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. While one of you would stay in the building, the other one would

25 go around the territory in question. There would always be, in other

1 words, someone in the office building at all times; is that correct?

2 A. Not necessarily. Sometimes we walked together, and at other

3 times it was the way you described.

4 Q. Very well. And could you see, sir, the right side of the village

5 from the office in which you were working, in the building?

6 A. On one side of the building, we were able to see through the

7 windows, but from the whole building we could see the right bank of the

8 Neretva.

9 Q. Very well. And your shifts, sir, would last 12 hours; is that

10 correct?

11 A. 24 hours.

12 Q. 24. And then -- they would start either at 7.00 in the morning

13 or 7.00 in the evening and last until the next day at the same time; is

14 that correct?

15 A. From morning till morning. From 8.00 in the morning, for

16 example, until 8.00 in the morning.

17 Q. And during those shifts, sir, you would not always be paired with

18 the same person. What I mean to say is you worked with different people,

19 depending on the time or the occasion. Is that correct?

20 A. To start with, we worked in pairs, and later on we were withdrawn

21 to the dam.

22 Q. And on that one occasion relevant to this Tribunal, you had been

23 paired with a man called Alija Turkic; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to ask you a few general questions about the village

1 of Grabovica.

2 Since May 1993 when the village had been retaken by the ABiH, the

3 atmosphere in the village was good and stable, wasn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. There were no problems between the ABiH and local Croats.

6 A. No. As far as I was able to understand, no.

7 Q. And local residents were treated well and with respect, again as

8 far as you could see or tell.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In particular, one individual, Zulfikar Alispago, known as Zuka,

11 was making sure that the local residents would be treated properly and

12 with dignity; isn't that the case, sir?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he was doing his best not only to keep the locals from being

15 harmed in any way, but he was also ensuring their well-being, for

16 instance, by bringing in a doctor every Friday of the week; is that

17 correct?

18 A. I don't remember what day it was, whether it was Thursday or

19 Friday. I can't say exactly. But a doctor did come every week, yes. Up

20 until this incident.

21 Q. Don't worry about the date, sir. It's been -- it's been many

22 years now. We will not blame you for anything like that. But you knew

23 about those visits by the doctors and the consultations because they took

24 place in the very office in which you were working; isn't that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And the local Croats were also nice and grateful to Zuka for

2 arranging these facilities for them; is that correct?

3 A. I didn't discuss this with anyone.

4 Q. But you could see that they returned the friendliness to the ABiH

5 people or to people like you who worked in the office building; isn't that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And you also heard Zulfikar Alispago, Zuka, repeating on several

9 occasions that no one should be hurt in that village.

10 A. He spoke to me and said that no one was to interfere with the

11 Croats or to rob them. That's certain.

12 Q. In addition to the locals, there were soldiers who had been

13 billeted in the village; is that correct?

14 A. Not at that time.

15 Q. But there were a unit called Cedo's Wolves which had been

16 accommodated in the very building in which you worked; is that correct,

17 sir?

18 A. Yes. Initially no, but then later on Cedo's Wolves arrived and

19 that's when there were soldiers in Grabovica.

20 Q. And there were no problems between Cedo's Wolves and the local

21 residents at that time.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then later on in September of 1993, new soldiers arrived in

24 Grabovica.

25 A. Yes, on the right bank of the Neretva.

1 Q. And at that time, you had been forbidden to go to the right side

2 of the village; isn't that correct?

3 A. Nobody can forbid me to go. It wasn't forbidden.

4 Q. But you didn't go, sir.

5 A. Not at that time, no.

6 Q. And you did not meet personally any members from those units.

7 A. I did come across them, both at a distance and close up, but I

8 just passed by them.

9 Q. You did not stop to talk to any of them, did you, sir?

10 A. I spoke to one of them.

11 Q. And did he introduce himself to you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Was he wearing any insignia, sir?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you are not certain what units had been billeted at the time

16 in Grabovica, from -- from your own eyes and your own experience. You

17 only heard about those later. Is that correct?

18 A. At first, I didn't know. And later on, I found out.

19 Q. You heard, for instance, that Celo's unit had been billeted in

20 that village; isn't that correct?

21 A. That was later. I learned that later on.

22 Q. When was it, sir, that you learned that Celo's unit had been

23 billeted in the village?

24 A. I can't say precisely.

25 Q. And can you remember, sir, who told you that Celo's unit had been

1 billeted in the village at that time?

2 A. I can't remember that either.

3 Q. And would that be the same in relation to Caco's unit, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You don't know when you heard that rumour, nor can you remember

6 who told you about such a story; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you hear of any other units that had been billeted in the

9 village at that time? Did you hear any such story or rumours?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Aside from those units and the local residents, there were also a

12 number of refugees which had been accommodated in the village at the time.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And as far as you could see, they had been billeted on both sides

15 of the village; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, at first. And then later on, only on the left bank.

17 Q. But during the time relevant to the matter presently being

18 discussed, refugees had been billeted or were billeted at the time on both

19 sides of the village and you would see them going from one side to the

20 other; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. When they were searching for food.

22 Q. And aside from -- or among those refugees were a number of former

23 camp inmates, people who had been camped in a Croatian camp; is that

24 correct?

25 A. First the refugees arrived, and after that the camp inmates

1 arrived.

2 Q. Can you remember, sir, more or less, doing the best with your

3 memory, at what time those camp inmates arrived in the village of

4 Grabovica?

5 A. I can't tell you the exact date, but they arrived to Grabovica

6 via Dreznica.

7 Q. And again, sir, I'm not asking for miracles here, but using your

8 memory can you remember whether a group -- a group of camp inmates arrived

9 shortly before the incident in Grabovica?

10 A. Yes. They arrived before this incident took place.

11 Q. Was it the same day as the day when you were on your shift which

12 you described in your statement? Was it that very day, sir?

13 A. When the camp inmates arrived, yes.

14 Q. And you've indicated that refugees would go from one side of the

15 village to the other in search of food. Was it the fact, sir, that at the

16 time everyone in the region but in particular those former camp inmates

17 were desperate for food?

18 A. Yes. Everybody was looking for food.

19 Q. But they in particular, sir, some of those refugees obviously had

20 lost a lot of weight during their ordeal in the camps; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The Prosecution has read a summary of your statement and has

23 referred to an occasion where, I believe, the commander of Cedo's Wolves

24 came in your office to call Zuka's command. And I just want to ask you a

25 simple question about that incident: Is it the fact, sir, that you only

1 saw Zuka's car coming to the village? You didn't see Zuka himself; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And, again, doing the best you can with your memory, sir, but the

5 time at which Zuka's car came in the village, it was still daylight,

6 wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The Prosecution in its summary has also referred to the time when

9 you learnt about killings having taken place in the village. And you

10 learnt about those killings on the morning when you ended your shift; is

11 that correct?

12 A. No. No.

13 Q. Was it the day after?

14 A. I took up my shift in the morning, and the incident took place in

15 the night.

16 Q. Sir, I'm just asking you about when you learnt that civilians had

17 been killed in the village. Was it the morning when you finished your

18 shift, that is, the morning after you heard the shooting in the village?

19 Is that correct?

20 A. No. I heard in the morning when I took up my shift from a Muslim

21 woman called Nena. I heard that.

22 Q. Can you remember, sir, whether that was that next morning, a day

23 after, two days after? Can you remember that fact? Or is it too far away

24 from your memory. I'm not asking you to -- to make any guess, sir, in

25 that regard. If you don't know, you can simply state so.

1 A. The first morning after the incident. I came to take up my

2 shift, and that's when I learnt about it.

3 Q. Very well. And you've explained that you went to talk to a

4 friend of yours who would go by the first name Andrija; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, before this incident.

6 Q. And Andrija was a Croat, was he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But as you arrived at his home, instead of Andrija, Muslim

9 refugees answered the door and told you that Andrija had been taken away

10 by the police to protect him; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. A Muslim woman called Nena.

12 Q. And Nena told you that Andrija had been taken by the police

13 together with other Croat civilians; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that they had been taken for their own protection.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Nena also told you that those people, including Andrija, had

18 been taken the night before you paid her a visit; is that correct?

19 A. In the morning, I paid Nena a visit at Andrija's house, but this

20 happened during the night.

21 Q. Sir, just so that we're clear about the timing. The incident

22 happened during the night, and the next morning you went to Nena in the

23 hope of seeing Andrija, and that's when she told you that the night before

24 he had been taken away; is that correct?

25 A. That they had been taken in the night. Yes, that's correct.

1 Q. Very well. And you had occasion later on when you learned that

2 Andrija had actually been taken to the museum facility in Jablanica to go

3 and visit him; isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that's also the occasion when you told Andrija that you had

6 seen what you believed to be the dead body of his brother; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about that particular

10 matter. When you saw the body for the first time, there was no particular

11 mark on the body which would indicate the cause of death; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. There was no entry or exit wound on the body, or none that you

14 could see; is that correct, sir?

15 A. I didn't see that. I saw neither an entry nor an exit wound.

16 Q. And there were no bruises on the body.

17 A. I didn't notice any.

18 Q. And you didn't notice any traces of blood in or around the body.

19 A. No.

20 Q. And at the time, you were unable to determine what he could have

21 died of; is that correct?

22 A. When I saw the body, I said he had been neither killed nor

23 slaughtered. I do not know what the cause of death was.

24 Q. And that very conclusion, sir, you mentioned it to the Prosecutor

25 investigator who came to interview you in Jablanica; isn't that correct?

1 You told him, "I don't know what this person died of," and you also told

2 him, "He could have died of natural causes"? Isn't that what you told the

3 prosecuting investigator?

4 A. That was in Sarajevo. That was in Sarajevo when we talked. I

5 said he hadn't been. The investigator said he had. I said he hadn't.

6 And then we agreed that it should be the Court who should decide that.

7 Q. But you insisted with the investigator that in your view he could

8 have died about natural causes. And the investigator, if I'm correct,

9 declined or disagreed with you and declined to put that fact in your

10 statement. Is that correct, sir?

11 A. Yes. But we did agree that it should be the Court who should

12 decide that. That was in Sarajevo.

13 Q. That's very good advice. Can you remember the name of that

14 investigator, sir?

15 A. He was a Russian, but I don't recall his name.

16 Q. Did he introduce himself by the name Nikolai?

17 A. Yes. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Sir, you saw that body again a day or two later. And by that

19 time, the body had been burnt; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You don't know who burnt that body, did you -- or do you?

22 A. I don't know who burnt it, no.

23 Q. When you saw the body on that later occasion after it had been

24 burnt, you saw a large hole - I think you indicated about five centimetres

25 large - at the back of the head of that body; is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You've also indicated in 1999 in a statement that you gave to the

3 investigative judge of the cantonal court in Sarajevo that - and I

4 quote - "I can confirm with certainty that this hole on the skull was not

5 there at the time when I first saw the body." Is that correct, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I only have very few questions now to ask you about the time

8 after the particular incident. Are you aware, sir, that a colleague of

9 yours from the hydroelectric plant, a man called Osman Kovacevic, was

10 interviewed about the events in Grabovica? Are you aware of that fact?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And his interview was carried out by the local authorities in

13 Jablanica shortly after the incident; isn't that correct?

14 A. I can't remember.

15 Q. Can you remember whether the person who interviewed him is a man

16 called Ahmed Salihamidzic, who's a member of the civilian police, the MUP,

17 in Jablanica?

18 A. Osman didn't talk to me about it, so I don't know. I can't say

19 anything about it.

20 Q. Do you know if any other individuals, whether colleagues from the

21 hydroelectric plant or any other person that you would know of, who were

22 also interviewed shortly after the incident by the local authorities? And

23 you yourself, sir, were you so interviewed?

24 A. No, I wasn't, and there's nothing really I can say about this.

25 Q. Do you know if your colleague Mr. Alija Turkic was interviewed

1 shortly after this incident?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MS. CHANA: The witness has very clearly stated he does not know.

4 And by my learned friend putting to him more and more names, I don't

5 really see the -- the point in that, Your Honour. The witness has very

6 clearly said he doesn't know who was interviewed, and that should be the

7 end of that.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Well, Your Honour, I'm just trying to help the

10 memories of -- the memory of the witness in that regard by putting to him

11 a particular name which he could remember or a person which he might have

12 discussed this matter with. This is the only name put to the witness.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, from the answer of this witness, it is quite

14 clear. He said, "No, I wasn't. There's nothing really I can say about

15 this."

16 MR. METTRAUX: Very well. In that case, that would have been our

17 last question for this witness. Thank you very much.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Any redirect?

20 MS. CHANA: Just one question, Your Honour, if I may.

21 Re-examined by Ms. Chana:

22 Q. Mr. Neziric, you were asked about where the refugees were, and I

23 would like you to clarify a certain matter in respect of that. First you

24 said they were on both sides and then later on only on the left bank. Do

25 you remember saying that?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can we sort of take this incident which happened in Grabovica as

3 a point. Was it before or after? Where were the refugees before this

4 incident and where were the refugees after and during?

5 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would object to that. He's

6 answered that question. He's indicated that at the time they were on both

7 sides.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, but to me it's not still very clear. Maybe we

9 could hear this witness.

10 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 A. If you look at one point of this case, then the refugees were on

12 both sides until the moment the -- the army from Sarajevo came. When they

13 came, they were only on the left bank of the river. As they were

14 scurrying for food, they were on both banks. However, they were

15 accommodated on the left bank.

16 Q. And when they were scurrying for food, that was after the

17 incident, was it not?

18 MR. METTRAUX: Well, the -- I'm sorry, I would object. There

19 should be no leading in re-examination, Your Honour.

20 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, that's what he said. I'm just

21 confirming it.

22 JUDGE LIU: I don't think that is a leading question.

23 MS. CHANA:

24 Q. Yes. Would you ...

25 A. The refugees were on both banks, scurrying for food on both

1 sides. Once the troops came, they were only on the left bank because on

2 the other bank there was nothing left. It was over and done with.

3 Q. And when did the refugees go back scurrying for food?

4 A. When the refugees came from Capljina to Grabovica, they were

5 hungry right away. There was nothing to eat. And they started the

6 process immediately.

7 Q. Now, in respect with this bank -- this inmates -- camp inmates.

8 When did they arrive? And this is in relation to the incidents. Before

9 or after?

10 A. Before.

11 Q. And where were they housed?

12 A. There was no housing as such. Wherever they landed, they stayed

13 on in that place.

14 Q. And what happened -- where were these camp inmates once the ABiH,

15 these troops from Sarajevo, came?

16 A. They were on the left bank.

17 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, can I have one moment, please.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MS. CHANA: That will be all from this witness, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

22 MR. METTRAUX: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 MS. CHANA: No.

24 JUDGE LIU: Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague

25 to give your evidence. Madam Usher will show you out of the room. We

1 wish you a pleasant journey back home.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. You'll say something about the

5 next witness.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. I was going to say it might be

7 appropriate to take an early break before that witness commences. But my

8 learned friend is here now, so I'm in the hands of the Prosecutor as to

9 that.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Re, are you going to take the next witness?

11 MR. RE: Mr. Eminovic, yes. He's just outside. I just spoke to

12 him. He's -- he's ready to go, if the Trial Chamber is.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So could we have the next witness, please.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness. Can you hear me?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.

17 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

18 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemn declaration that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

22 WITNESS: NERMIN EMINOVIC

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.

25 Examined by Mr. Re:

1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Eminovic. Some personal details for the

2 record, please, and I will just lead you through some details about

3 yourself.

4 Your name is Nermin Eminovic and you were born on the 12th of

5 October, 1955; is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. You -- your present -- or your occupation for some time has been

8 as a clerk in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina's Ministry of

9 Defence.

10 A. Yes. In the Federal Ministry of Defence, correct.

11 Q. You did your JNA military service in 1992 -- sorry, 1982 in an

12 engineering unit, and you have qualifications in engineering?.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And using your qualifications in engineering in 1992 when the war

15 broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, you were working in a factory in the

16 Sarajevo area.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in April 1992, you joined the Territorial Defence in

19 Sarajevo.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And skipping to -- skipping through the next year. In June 1993,

22 upon the formation of the 6th Corps, you took up a position as the

23 assistant to the commander for military -- military security within that

24 corps; is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

1 Q. You remained in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina until the

2 beginning of 1996, after the Dayton Accords were signed.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In June 1993, when you were the assistant to the commander for

5 military security, were you a member of the military security service?

6 A. No. Let me explain. I was not officially accepted into the

7 military security service. I worked in the military security service.

8 However, I was never officially admitted. This admission, my admission

9 into the service, was done subsequently.

10 Q. Who was your immediate superior when you worked -- from June 1993

11 onwards, when you were working in the 6th Corps command?

12 A. My immediate commander was the corps commander, Salko Gusic. My

13 immediate superior, that is.

14 Q. And what about Jusuf Jasarevic? Were you also reporting to him?

15 A. Yes. We are talking about the professional line, as we call it,

16 the official professional line of reporting.

17 Q. The Trial Chamber has had -- heard an amount of evidence about

18 the chains of reporting within the military security service, so I don't

19 want to go into any detail with you on that. I just want to clarify

20 that -- in this respect: Are you saying that there was a parallel chain

21 of command and you were reporting to both Salko Gusic and Jusuf Jasarevic

22 because of the duties you had?

23 A. Yes, one could say so. Salko Gusic was more my immediate

24 commander, and I had to carry out his orders. As for the professional

25 chain, this had to do with my profession, and I did have my obligations

1 towards Mr. Jasarevic, who was the chief of the security administration.

2 I had to inform him about all the important developments that took place

3 in the area of responsibility, in the units and in the commands there.

4 Q. Were you based at the 6th Corps headquarters in Konjic?

5 A. Yes. The corps command in Konjic.

6 Q. I just want you to briefly tell the Trial Chamber -- if you could

7 list the duties you had in that position.

8 A. Could you please explain. What duties? What tasks?

9 Q. A moment ago you told the Trial Chamber that you had obligations

10 towards Mr. Jasarevic, who was the chief of the security administration.

11 You had to inform him about all the important developments that took place

12 in the area of responsibility. What I want you to tell the Trial Chamber

13 is: Apart from reporting back to Mr. Jasarevic on those matters, what

14 were your duties, what were your responsibilities, what did you have

15 responsibility for? And what did you do?

16 A. There was a whole range of duties. My duty was with respect to

17 all important events that had to do with command and control to report

18 them to the commander. It was also my duty to protect the unit in every

19 aspect of command, and my most important job was the counter-intelligence

20 protection of units and persons in the command. Also, one of my tasks was

21 professional leadership of the work of the military police.

22 Q. All right. Taking them in turn. The first one you mentioned was

23 protecting the unit in every aspect of command. And what did that

24 involve? What did you actually do?

25 A. Protection in the broader sense of -- from any kind of sabotage,

1 from discovery. This was a whole set of measures and activities aimed at

2 protecting the unit from the leaking of confidential information. I could

3 say more, but this was it more or less.

4 Q. Could you just give maybe a brief example of something you did.

5 So that we have a concrete idea of the sort of tasks that you carried out.

6 A. For example, one of the problems was the disappearing of

7 ammunition and weapons from the units. Because of the situation

8 prevailing in Bosnia, there were a lot of people who arrived in our area

9 of responsibility and bought ammunition for money, for tobacco. They

10 would also buy rifles, hand grenades, and other weapons. These were

11 always individuals who did this, and very often organised groups would

12 arrive, and we had to monitor this and provide protection from it in some

13 way. That was one example.

14 Another example, for example, is the construction of the

15 helicopter pad, which was started, and we had to monitor this because we

16 assumed that there could be an enemy attack in connection with this.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. Is this enough?

19 Q. On that particular one, yes.

20 Moving to the next one, which was counter-intelligence, can you

21 just briefly give the Trial Chamber an example of what your activities in

22 counter-intelligence in the 6th Corps in the Konjic area involved in 1993.

23 A. In the area of Konjic and Herzegovina at the time - how shall I

24 put this? - this area was affected by war to a great extent: First the

25 war with the aggressors from Serbia and Montenegro; and later on the

1 betrayal by the HVO. This area was rife with unsolved problems and

2 subordination between the units, communication with the units. All this

3 was prone to numerous problems. And because of previous events, there was

4 a lot of insecurity. Very often they would say to me, "You're some sort

5 of a new command. Commands come and go, but we stay." The biggest

6 problem was to build confidence among the subordinate units and

7 individuals.

8 One of my personal problems within the service was the

9 development and establishment of the service itself. People were there

10 who had been put there without any special criteria or the commander's

11 personal criteria. And in any case, this was not a good thing. The

12 process of building up the service required a lot of time. There had to

13 be selection of personnel. This was new territory for me, so I didn't

14 know the people, and it couldn't be done very quickly. These were some of

15 the problems, generally speaking.

16 Q. Thank you. And you referred to the service. Were you referring

17 to the military security service?

18 A. Yes. When -- I am talking about the service. I apologise.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 A. Sometimes I may not be precise in my expression. When I

21 say "service," I mean the military security service. I'll try and be very

22 precise.

23 Q. And that military security service, was that a -- what could be

24 described as a "command service"?

25 A. Could you please explain? I don't understand quite understand

1 your "command service" term.

2 JUDGE LIU: I don't understand it either.

3 MR. RE: I'm sorry?

4 JUDGE LIU: I don't understand it either.

5 MR. RE: No, I'll withdraw the question.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. And, Mr. Eminovic, how much contact did you have in your

9 day-to-day tasks with, firstly, Mr. Gusic and, secondly, Mr. Jasarevic?

10 A. I had daily contacts with Mr. Gusic, if he was there and if he

11 needed to see me or I needed to see him. Very often we were on different

12 sides and we didn't see each other for a few days.

13 And as for Mr. Jasarevic, I had contacts with him when he needed

14 to talk to me, when he needed to provide me with some instruction, or when

15 he wanted me to brief him on something. At that time, there were some

16 requests to send daily reports to Mr. Jasarevic. However, given the

17 development of events in the area, it was impossible to meet that request.

18 Q. I'm just talking at the moment generally, in the period from June

19 1993. Just generally how much contact you had with Mr. Jasarevic and ...

20 A. Are you referring to my personal contacts or our communication

21 via the communication means?

22 Q. Well, both.

23 A. As for my personal contacts with him, I may have had four or five

24 such contacts. Not more than that. I may be wrong by two or three.

25 Those were our personal contacts when I went to Sarajevo and when I met

1 with Mr. Jasarevic there.

2 As for our communication via the communication means, if we

3 needed to talk to each other we didn't do it verbally. We communicated

4 via mail or closed lines. And that's how we conveyed documents to each

5 other.

6 Q. The third responsibility you mentioned a little earlier was in

7 relation to the military police. What were your duties and

8 responsibilities with the military police in the 6th Corps?

9 A. The military police was part of the corps, and the commander was

10 the one who was in command over the military police. My duties vis-a-vis

11 the military police were as follows: In preparation for drafting

12 professional materials that would serve to provide security for certain

13 facilities, I would carry out some corrections. And that was my way of

14 assisting them.

15 Also, when the military police was to be used for some specific

16 tasks, if the need arose, for example, when the court started functioning

17 and when the -- an arrested person had to be escorted to the court, I

18 would assist them with that. This was the scope of my duties vis-a-vis

19 the military police. I did not have a command role.

20 Q. Were you able to issue orders at all to the military police?

21 A. The commander authorised me in certain cases to issue orders, but

22 only for some very specific tasks. Not for others.

23 For example, we -- when we had to transport a detainee from the

24 prison to the court, I had that authority. I did not have any general

25 authority.

1 Or, for example, if a certain piece of equipment was being

2 requisitioned, then I had the possibility at the request of the Defence

3 Department to send the military police to assist with that task.

4 Q. What role, if you -- sorry, what role, if any, did you have in

5 the investigation of criminal offences committed by members of the

6 military?

7 A. Yes. Yes. All information that pointed to that -- let me first

8 tell you that the police was a body that was very often privy to certain

9 information. The police would come back with that information, and then

10 we'd try to investigate. And it was my obligation to discuss all this

11 information with the police, to analyse it, to carry out certain measures

12 that fall under the scope of the police work, and then we would implement

13 these measures. If we decided that a crime had been committed, we would

14 send our criminal report to the court for their procedure.

15 At that time, the military police had all the police authorities,

16 like the civilian police; however, they were limited to the military

17 personnel. We could keep a person in custody for 72 hours if there was a

18 suspicion that this person had committed a crime. If there was evidence

19 that a crime had been committed, the commanders had to sign criminal

20 reports against the perpetrators of those crimes. I'm talking about the

21 unit commanders. And that was a very specific characteristic of the

22 military police.

23 Q. A moment ago you said "to the court." Did you mean investigating

24 judges?

25 A. Yes, that is what I meant.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. To be honest --

3 Q. Which court were you referring to?

4 A. At that time, say for the misdemeanour court, when the 6th Corps

5 was established there was no court except for the basic municipal court.

6 There was no military court. There was no other court, for that matter.

7 And on my insistent and as a result of the need that existed, towards the

8 end of August a department of the district military court was established

9 in Konjic. It was not established at the moment. The process began at

10 that time. And sometime in October or maybe a bit sooner, they started

11 functioning in a somewhat more serious way.

12 Q. Before the crimes were committed in Grabovica, had you personally

13 been involved in any investigations of -- into offences allegedly

14 committed by 6th Corps military personnel?

15 A. Yes, there was information at the time about certain crimes. We

16 embarked on some investigations. We even had some plans at the level of

17 some of the units. The task of all the assistants in the brigades was to

18 gather all the information and to prepare criminal reports. There was

19 information on that sort -- of that sort. Later on in various cases

20 judiciary procedures were initiated. At that time, we were involved in a

21 number of investigations. Primarily in the cases which in a certain way

22 involved contacts with the enemy. I can even specify which cases and

23 which types of acts -- of crimes I have in mind.

24 First of all, there was smuggling, involving the enemy side.

25 This was one of our major problems. There were also a number of crimes

1 that fell under the category of war crimes that had been committed before.

2 Q. By whom?

3 A. Mostly by members of the army, members of the army and of the

4 then-6th Corps. They were in some other units or had been. But as they

5 came under the command of the 6th Corps, there were also members who had

6 committed crimes as members of the army but were no longer members of the

7 army.

8 Q. And how many military police were in the 6th Corps?

9 A. There was a battalion of military police in the 6th Corps, and it

10 had two companies. One company was in Jablanica; the other in Konjic. At

11 the time when the military unit -- the motorised brigade - I think it was

12 called the 302nd Motorised Brigade from Visoko - was part of the corps, it

13 also had a military company but it wasn't there the whole time. We tried

14 to get this company involved in the military police battalion. These two

15 companies, in Jablanica and Konjic, which were there continuously,

16 numbered -- I may be wrong, but about 60 men each. I think that the

17 then-establishment was 76, but the companies were not 100 per cent up to

18 manpower level.

19 Also, there were about 10 men in the battalion command.

20 Approximately 10.

21 Q. Well, you said one was in Konjic -- Konjic, I'm sorry, and the

22 other in Jablanica. Where was the military police --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where in Jablanica were the military police based?

25 A. It was in the school there. I don't know how to explain it.

1 There was a school building in which the command of the 44th was also

2 located and some sort of battalion. There was a military unit there, and

3 the investigations department of that company was located in a building in

4 the town. I don't know the exact address.

5 Q. What's the geographical distance between Konjic and Jablanica?

6 A. About 20 kilometres.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, is it the right time for us to take a break?

8 MR. RE: If I could just ask one more question on this topic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. And what was the -- how long in September 1993 would it take --

12 would it have taken you to travel between Konjic and Jablanica?

13 A. Well, in a vehicle, about six hours, let's say. Roughly

14 speaking. I think it would have taken four, five, six, or seven hours,

15 depending on your vehicle. On foot, you could reach it in four or five

16 hours. The reason for this is that you had to take a forest road which

17 was a roundabout road, and the asphalt road was interrupted in Dretelj -

18 that was the HVO state - about 400 or 500 metres, or maybe a kilometre at

19 the most. This was not passable. That's how it was in September.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at 12.30.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re. Please continue.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. And who was the commander of the 6th Corps military police in

1 August and September 1993?

2 A. Nusret Sahic. That was his name, his first and last name.

3 Q. Sefer Halilovic, who was he in August and September 1993?

4 A. General Halilovic held the post of Chief of Staff of the Army of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina, of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Did he ever visit the 6th Corps headquarters in Konjic?

7 A. I personally know that General Halilovic visited the command of

8 the 6th Corps on one occasion. I think this was in late August. I cannot

9 be sure about this, however.

10 Q. What did he do when he came to the 6th Corps headquarters?

11 A. General Halilovic, I think, had a visit of some kind which was

12 not announced. It was in passing. I couldn't really explain. He just

13 happened to be there. I probably wouldn't even remember this visit had it

14 not been for a recollection I have. There were several brigade commanders

15 there and Mitko Pitkic, the commander of the 43rd Brigade was present.

16 What sticks in my memory, and to be quite honest, I don't even know why I

17 was there. Perhaps as host. I'm not sure. But he was a bit rough with

18 the commander of the 43rd Brigade. In my view, this was unjustified. And

19 that's the reason why I recall that visit.

20 Q. Do you remember now whether Mr. Gusic, the commander, was at that

21 meeting?

22 A. I am not sure. I am really not sure. The reason I remember it

23 was that General Halilovic was quite rough with the commander of the

24 43rd Brigade and the man wept. That's why I remember it. I don't know

25 who else was there. This is the only detail I can recall. There was

1 nothing else that sticks in my memory.

2 Q. What about what the meeting was about? Can you remember what the

3 meeting was about?

4 A. I don't think it was a military meeting in the sense of being a

5 briefing, a debriefing, an issuing of tasks, or anything like that. It

6 was more talk about politics and the usual kind of things people talk

7 about. It was just a visit in passing. He dropped in. That's how I

8 experienced it.

9 Q. Do you know what a forward command post is?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Were there any forward command posts in the area in which you

12 were working in 1993?

13 A. According to what there was in the written documents and what

14 people said, there was a forward command post in Donja Jablanica of the

15 Supreme Command. That's what I can say at this moment.

16 Q. How did you find out about this forward command post in

17 Donja Jablanica of the Supreme Command?

18 A. I didn't know much. I only know that the Chief of Staff was

19 there, General Halilovic, and that with him in his team were Mr. -- or

20 rather, later Brigadier Vehbija Karic, General Suljevic, I think General

21 Bilajac, and there was Namik Dzankovic.

22 Q. Who was in charge of this forward command post? Or who was in

23 command of the forward command post?

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I object to that question.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

1 MR. MORRISSEY: There's been clear evidence from military experts

2 here that no one is in command of a military command post. It's a command

3 post. There's a question here that can be asked which I don't object to,

4 and that's who was in command of the team.

5 MR. RE: Okay. It's a fair point. I'll proceed that way just to

6 save time.

7 Q. Mr. Eminovic, you said there was a team. What was the team

8 called?

9 A. I personally don't know what the team was called. To be quite

10 honest, later on I found out what its name was. At that moment, I didn't

11 know. At that moment for me this was just a forward command post. I am

12 referring to the time of August and September 1993. That's the time

13 period I'm referring to. I learned other details later on, and perhaps

14 this can prompt me to say things.

15 Q. All right. What did you learn that this team was called later?

16 A. I think it was an inspection team or something like that.

17 Q. Who was the senior commander of this forward command post in

18 Donja Jablanica?

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, that was the objection I made

20 before. And it's -- my objection really is to the use of the

21 term "commander" in juxtaposition to the "forward command post." I don't

22 object to this witness giving his -- his evidence as to who was the senior

23 out of those people or anything of that nature. That's not my objection.

24 So just so my friend understands what I'm objecting to. It's

25 that "commander" plus "command post" juxtaposition that's concerning me,

1 given the evidence that's already been given.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, since there's a forward command post, there

3 must be somebody or a group of people in charge of that post.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I think, Your Honour, it's a military

5 doctrinal problem that this court -- this Tribunal might have to deal with

6 at a future time, because the evidence that we've sought to elicit in --

7 in evidence - and I think the record shows that we have with Mr. Cikotic

8 and others - is that a forward command post as such doesn't of itself have

9 a commander. It's a command post. It's a place. And that the question

10 of a commander as -- as being the commander of a unit or of a team or of

11 some other collection of individuals. So that's the basis of the

12 objection. And it's a question of characterising at a later time -- I

13 mean, bearing in mind many of the questions -- I don't want to make a

14 speech about, this Your Honour. I'm just aware of not doing so. It's

15 that juxtaposition that concerns me. It's not the question of who was the

16 senior in this witness's perception. Of course he can answer that

17 question.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. Of course.

19 Yes, Mr. Re, you may proceed.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. My question was directed at who was the senior commander at the

22 forward command post.

23 A. The senior officer was the Chief of Staff, General Halilovic.

24 There was no higher military authority at the time.

25 Q. And who was in command of the team at the forward command post?

1 A. To be quite honest, I don't understand this question: Who was in

2 command of the team? What team are you referring to? Can you clarify.

3 Q. The forward command post, what was your understanding of who -- I

4 withdraw that.

5 You said General Halilovic was the senior officer at the forward

6 command post. Who was in charge or, sorry, in command of those stationed

7 at the forward command post?

8 A. To be quite honest, I was not involved in any work. To me, these

9 are just people who have come from the superior command. But I was not

10 involved in their work. I wasn't present. So I don't know how all this

11 functioned. I do know that General Halilovic was the greatest military

12 authority there. That was my understanding. If I may be of assistance in

13 any other way, I will be happy to be, but that was my understanding of

14 matters.

15 Q. All right. Where in Donja Jablanica was this forward command

16 post?

17 A. As I just said, I wasn't there at the time, but later on I learnt

18 precisely where it had been because I passed by that place. How can I

19 explain it? That was where Zuka's base was, as far as I could understand,

20 and it was right next to it. This was a cluster of houses. When we speak

21 of a base or a command post, this was not fenced off. These were

22 residential buildings where a forward command post or a staff or some

23 other sort of post could be set up, and this was in Jablanica.

24 Q. And this Zuka, that's Zulfikar Alispago?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

1 Q. And who was his unit subordinated to, in your understanding?

2 A. Well, this was a detachment for special purposes of the Supreme

3 Command Staff Zulfikar. I think this was its name: The special purpose

4 detachment of the Supreme Command Staff.

5 Q. Are you familiar where -- with where the village of Grabovica is?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Are you able to say now whether it was within the 6th Corps area

8 of responsibility as of September 1993?

9 A. I think it was, but the best answer would be to consult an

10 operations officer. He would be the one who would be best equipped to

11 provide an answer for this question.

12 Q. I'm asking you specifically about your memory now, as opposed to

13 September 1993. In September 1993, would you have known whether it was

14 within the area of responsibility of the 6th Corps?

15 A. Probably, yes. Probably, yes. Because at that time, in

16 September 1993, I could have found it out very easily. I could have asked

17 someone and I would have known about it very quickly if I needed to know.

18 The reason I'm saying this is that according to the organisation order on

19 the establishment of the 6th Corps, it was done according to municipality.

20 In September 1993, I didn't even know that Grabovica belonged to the

21 Mostar municipality, so it was municipalities that were mentioned in the

22 order. The Mostar municipality, according to the organisation order, did

23 not belong to the 6th Corps. Probably this was regulated in subsequent

24 orders. But the operations officers would definitely have been familiar

25 with it, so it would be best to consult them. This was not my area of

1 expertise.

2 Q. Have you heard of an operation called Neretva?

3 A. An operation called Neretva. I heard about it.

4 Q. When? I just want the approximate date and then I'll move on to

5 another question. So if you could please give me a very brief answer to

6 that one.

7 A. It was approximately around the time of these events. But to be

8 quite honest, I did not participate in any kind of planning.

9 Q. Okay. I just want you to very -- I just -- if you could please

10 assist me in this way and please listen very carefully to the question.

11 My question was only as to when you found out. And I'll just move to

12 another one afterwards. So thank you for that. You said it was around

13 the time of the events. Which events are you referring to?

14 A. I'm referring to the events in Grabovica.

15 Q. Do you think it was before or after the events in Grabovica that

16 you heard about -- heard out -- sorry, heard about an operation

17 called "Neretva"?

18 A. The name of the operation is something I probably heard later on,

19 but I did have knowledge that something was being done and planned. I had

20 certain information based on movements of the army and so on, that

21 something was afoot, but nothing more.

22 Q. Which movements of the army are you referring to?

23 A. Well, at that time, there were movements in that troops arrived

24 from Sarajevo. I am referring to members of units from Sarajevo. That

25 was the information I had at the time. I didn't know what the units were

1 or why they were arriving.

2 Q. How did you obtain your information that these troops were

3 arriving from Sarajevo?

4 A. Based on police reports - I'm referring to the military police -

5 they were the ones controlling the territory, and I knew that there were

6 movements and that troops were arriving from Sarajevo. Units from

7 Sarajevo.

8 Q. Where were they staying?

9 A. To be quite honest, most of them were billeted in Jablanica and

10 lower down in Grabovica. At least, that's what transpired later. When I

11 say "Jablanica," I'm referring to Jablanica municipality. I didn't know

12 that they were billeted in other places possibly.

13 Q. Were you aware at that time, when the troops were being billeted

14 in -- the soldiers from Sarajevo were being billeted in Jablanica

15 municipality, of whether or not there were any military police with those

16 troops?

17 A. I didn't know that, no.

18 Q. Do you know under whose command the soldiers from Sarajevo were?

19 That is, who brought them there?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, that question -- that's two

21 questions there, and they mean different things.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could ask it one by one.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. The first question, Mr. Eminovic: Do you know under whose

25 command the soldiers from Sarajevo were?

1 A. I don't know. I don't know.

2 Q. Do you know who brought them to the area, the Jablanica area?

3 A. I don't know, no. No.

4 Q. What was Mr. Dzankovic's role, to your knowledge, in the

5 inspection team at the forward command post?

6 A. I met Mr. Dzankovic, I think, in late August. That was my first

7 meeting with him. That's when we got to know each other. I knew that he

8 was coming from the superior house. I think -- I know that he was a

9 member of the team and that he was in charge of business of the military

10 security service. He was from the military security service

11 administration. And we agreed that he should carry out his job in the way

12 he thought best and that I would assist him wherever I could and provide

13 whatever support he needed. I would assist him to the extent that I was

14 able to. I am referring only to tasks falling within the compass of the

15 military security service.

16 Q. The transcript reads that you said, "I knew that he was coming

17 from the superior house." Did you say "house," or did you use some other

18 term? That's what our translation says.

19 A. Yes, I did use the term "superior house." I was referring to my

20 superior command. He was coming from the Supreme Command Staff or,

21 rather, from the security service administration of the Supreme Command

22 Staff. Sometimes I use imprecise terms. I apologise.

23 Q. There's -- there's no need to apologise, Mr. Eminovic.

24 What I want to ask you now is where you met Mr. Dzankovic for the

25 first time in, I think you said, late August 1993.

1 A. If my memory serves me well, it was in late August. I think he

2 came to see me at the corps command. We met there two or three times in

3 all.

4 Q. When did you first hear about anything happening at Grabovica?

5 And how -- and how did you hear?

6 A. I think it was on the 10th of September, 1993. I received

7 information from the battalion commander of the military police, who was

8 then stationed in Jablanica. This information reached me by telephone.

9 At that time, we had several telephone lines at our disposal. As this was

10 an open line, communication could not be open. It was quite closed. What

11 he told me - I will try to paraphrase it now - was that something ugly had

12 happened down there, words to that effect, and that was the information

13 that reached me.

14 Q. What did you understand he meant by "something ugly had happened

15 down there"?

16 A. When I say "ugly," he may have said there were victims or that

17 there had been murders. I am paraphrasing what I heard. It was words to

18 that effect, but I couldn't be more precise.

19 Q. Where did you understand "down there" to mean?

20 A. "Down there" in my language -- well, when you're using a

21 telephone line that someone can listen in to - and we used it only when we

22 had to, not usually - and as I knew that he was in Jablanica, if he said

23 to me that it was further south or, rather, "down there," then I would

24 know it was in that area. But at the time, I didn't have anything more

25 precise. This was only preliminary information.

1 Q. What was your response, Mr. Eminovic?

2 A. In that conversation, I suggested to him that he should go and

3 see for himself, that he should go and check, that he should go to the

4 spot and report to me.

5 Q. Was Mr. Dzankovic involved at that -- at that point?

6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I suggested to him that he should communicate

7 with Mr. Dzankovic without fail.

8 Q. Who was this -- who was the battalion commander of the military

9 police who told you this information? Do you remember his name?

10 A. Nusret Sahic.

11 Q. You told us earlier about your subordination to Mr. Gusic, on the

12 one hand, in the 6th Corps and Mr. Jasarevic of the security service on

13 the other. As a result of this information, did you have any contact with

14 either Mr. Gusic or Mr. Jasarevic?

15 A. I communicated with Mr. Jasarevic but also with Mr. Gusic, the

16 commander. I can't recall now the precise time and manner, but in any

17 case, it was my duty, my obligation, to inform both of them about the

18 events.

19 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit D224.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. RE: I apologise, MFI D224.

22 Q. It should come up on the screen just in front of you,

23 Mr. Eminovic.

24 Now, that's a document signed by Mr. Jasarevic dated the 12th of

25 September, 1993.

1 MR. RE: Do Your Honours have it in front of you?

2 Q. Have you seen that document before?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 JUDGE LIU: I think it's in B/C/S. Could we have the English

5 version.

6 Yes, now we have it.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. Do you have the Bosnian original in front of you, Mr. Eminovic,

9 still?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Is that a document that you received in the course of your work

12 in 1993?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. How did you receive it?

15 A. Probably through cryptographic protection communication. There

16 was no other way of communication.

17 Q. All right. And who was it addressed to? It says: "6th Corps

18 command to chief of the military security service." Who was that person?

19 A. This is addressed to me directly.

20 Q. Do you remember now - this is in 2005 - whether you had

21 communication with Mr. Jasarevic before, whether telephone, radio, or

22 written, before he sent you this -- this order on the 12th of September?

23 A. Before what? I did communicate, but about what?

24 Q. About the -- the contents of the order, that is: "We are in

25 possession of unverified information that the unit commanded by Ramiz

1 Delalic, aka Celo, has massacred civilians in some Croatian village in the

2 zone of responsibility of the 6th Corps."

3 What I'm asking you was: Had you had any communication with

4 Mr. Jasarevic about Grabovica before you received this order from him?

5 A. I don't think so. I don't think that there was any communication

6 about Grabovica or these problems.

7 Q. What was your response to this order? What did you do?

8 A. I think it was on the 13th of October that I received from the

9 commander of the military police battalion a report on his visit to

10 Grabovica and his information about this event, and I forwarded this

11 immediately to the chief of the administration, Mr. Jasarevic, and then

12 proceeding to work on this, I attempted to respond to the tasks assigned

13 me in this document by Jasarevic.

14 Q. I'll ask you about the task in one second.

15 MR. RE: Meanwhile, could Exhibit P119 please be shown to the

16 witness.

17 Q. While that's coming Mr. Eminovic, what were -- what was -- you

18 said you attempted to respond to the task. What did you actually do?

19 A. I sent the commander of the military police battalion toward the

20 scene of the crime and told him to communicate to Namik Dzankovic, who had

21 more firsthand information, who had information better than mine, and to

22 get from him a reply as to what all this was really about.

23 After this, I tried to obtain information that might shed light

24 on these events.

25 Q. A moment ago you referred to receiving a report from the

1 commander of the military police battalion. The transcript says the 13th

2 of October. Did you say October or September?

3 A. I was thinking of September. It couldn't be October. I may have

4 made a slip. I don't know. But I was thinking of September.

5 Q. It's an easy mistake to make. If you'd just look at the

6 document - can you now see it in front of you on the screen - which is

7 dated the 13th of September, 1993 and signed by Mr. Nusret Sahic addressed

8 to your attention. Was that the document that you were referring to a

9 moment ago; namely, the report from the commander of the military police

10 battalion?

11 A. Yes, yes. This is the document.

12 Q. Did you have any other communications with Mr. Sahic about what

13 he should do when you received this document?

14 A. After this, I communicated with him orally.

15 Q. Just to make one thing clear: Did you tell him to go to the

16 scene of the crime after receiving this report from him or before

17 receiving the report from him?

18 A. Before. Before.

19 Q. As a result of receiving this report from him, did you give him

20 further tasks? And if so, what were they?

21 A. [No interpretation].

22 To try to get as much information as possible about the

23 perpetrators and the victims. You can see from his report here that there

24 was communication with Mr. Dzankovic, that he said that the forward

25 command post of the Supreme Command Staff is aware of everything, and that

1 the orders were that nothing should be done because of the planned action.

2 This referred to arrests and so on.

3 Q. All right. Which was the planned action? The English

4 translation says "planned operation." That -- that's -- that doesn't

5 particularly matter. But for the purposes of your understanding, what --

6 what was the planned operation?

7 A. Well, in our part of the world, we often use the word "action" to

8 describe smaller military operations. Maybe this is why the discrepancy

9 arose.

10 This was the military activity that had been planned and that was

11 beginning. That's what the reference was to. I don't know what else it

12 could be.

13 Q. Which military activity was that?

14 A. This was Operation Neretva 93. That's what it was called

15 officially. At that point, I didn't know that was its name, but this is

16 what I know about the operation.

17 Q. What was your professional opinion, having received this document

18 that said that the Supreme Command Staff forward command post had ordered

19 that no arrests be made because there was a forthcoming operation?

20 A. My professional opinion was that this instruction was to be

21 obeyed, and what could I do about it? That was one reason, and there

22 were other reasons.

23 Q. What were the other reasons?

24 A. The other reasons were that these were units which were not part

25 of the 6th Corps and were not under the command of the 6th Corps.

1 The third reason was that there was nothing to be relied on

2 officially. I'm not speaking here of command and control. "Command" is

3 something else. But I had no one there I could communicate with within

4 the service and get new information from. One of the reasons at the time

5 was that any police operation not properly supported and well-planned

6 would probably not be successful and there would have been bloodshed. At

7 the time, there were insufficient forces and because -- in view of the

8 military operation, there was not the inclination either.

9 Q. Well, having received a -- an order from General Jasarevic saying

10 that he was in possession of unverified information that Celo's unit had

11 massacred civilians in a Croatian village and then having received a

12 report from the commander of the military police battalion saying that the

13 Supreme Command Staff forward command post had ordered -- or it had

14 ordered that nothing be done, that is, no arrests be made because there

15 was a forthcoming operation, what was your professional view of the

16 juxtaposition of those two things, a report of a massacre and an order not

17 to arrest anyone? Apart from the fact that you said that you had to obey

18 that order, what was your view as a professional within the military

19 security service or -- or as the assistant commander for military

20 security?

21 A. I don't know what professional opinion you're referring to, but I

22 don't know -- can you clarify what you mean by "professional opinion"? In

23 what sense.

24 Q. Was the response of that document - that's Mr. Jasarevic

25 document - of the IKM according to the document, one which you'd expect in

1 accordance with the rules, the military security rules, the disciplinary

2 rules, and the criminal laws of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

3 A. To be quite honest, it's very difficult to answer this question.

4 There is a possibility the command can probably postpone some activities

5 until later because carrying out these activities would cause greater

6 damage. So certain activities could be postponed until later. That is a

7 risk taken by the command. That's my professional opinion.

8 Q. Now, did you respond to Mr. Jasarevic's order?

9 MR. RE: And can the witness please be shown Exhibit P214, which

10 I note for the record appears to be identical to MFI D234 except that

11 they've -- one's been translated by the Prosecution and the other by the

12 Defence, but it's the same source document.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, how about the previous document, that is, P199

14 [sic]? Is that admitted into the evidence?

15 MR. RE: It has a P number. I'm assured that it has been. If

16 it's an MFI number, it hasn't been. P119.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, my --

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: My recollection is that that was admitted. I'm

20 sorry, we don't have a proper number now. I believe that was admitted

21 when Mr. Gusic gave his evidence quite some time ago.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: The only query I have about it is that it's a --

24 it's a document that appears on its own, I think in the 65 ter list, and

25 also as an annexure to another document, and it may be that it's annexed

1 to the document that's about to appear now. That's the only doubt I have.

2 But I think Mr. Cengic is looking now to see whether we can see where it

3 is in the exhibit list. Oh, I think it is in, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, 00199. I have it here on my list but

6 I have no documents attached to it.

7 MR. RE: It's P119.

8 THE REGISTRAR: 001 -- oh, 119. Sorry.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, anyway, you may proceed, Mr. Re.

10 MR. RE: Thank you. The document I want to show the witness

11 is P214. His Honour was asking about P119.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: The document to which Your Honour referred

15 earlier is admitted into evidence at P119.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much indeed.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Mr. Eminovic, do you have the document in front of you now?

19 A. Yes. This is my document, the one that I sent to General

20 Jasarevic.

21 Q. And is the information in it accurate to the best of your

22 knowledge then?

23 A. Yes, it is accurate. At that time, this is the information that

24 we had at our disposal. And to be honest, nobody at the time had a whole

25 picture. This was just one piece of information that we had.

1 Q. And what was Mr. Jasarevic's response to your sending that report

2 to him?

3 MR. RE: Can MFI D225 please be brought up.

4 Q. While the next document is coming, Mr. Eminovic, what was

5 Mr. Jasarevic's response to your sending that information to him?

6 A. I think that up to this report and up to this incident there was

7 no intense communication and all of a sudden there was an avalanche of

8 requests at the time. On the 15th, Mr. Jasarevic sent me a list of tasks

9 and his request for reports to be sent. This request was sent through the

10 command of the 6th Corps; although, this paper that I have in front of me

11 makes a reference to Mr. Dzankovic. At that time, this was a somewhat

12 peculiar way of communicating. However, my service was used to send a

13 letter to another person, but this document was also sent to me, and you

14 can see here that a joint task was given to me and to Dzankovic.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. All right. Now, what was your response to receiving this

18 document or this order from Mr. Jasarevic, which is dated the 15th of

19 September?

20 A. Yes. I tried to collect some information, as much as I could at

21 the time, because I knew that Namik Dzankovic -- I was sure of that

22 because he was a member of the service, that he also communicated with

23 General Jasarevic at the same time as me. I tried to elucidate as much as

24 possible the whole situation from my position, from the position of the

25 chief of administration, and the chief of corps.

1 Q. You just said you tried to collect some information, as much as

2 you could. What did you do to try and collect the information?

3 A. There are my requests to the assistant commander of the

4 44th Brigade whose name was Zajko Sihilic, I believe. I asked him to

5 collect information and to meet with Namik Dzankovic and assist him as

6 well. Also, the military police battalion had a task to obtain

7 information and refer the information to me.

8 MR. RE: All right. Can the witness please be shown the next

9 document, which is MFI D226, please.

10 Q. And while that's coming, Mr. Eminovic: As a result of having

11 this information collected, did you in fact report back to Mr. Jasarevic?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I did. This is a short report on the events. It is

13 an attempt to summarise all the information that was collected up to then.

14 Q. And was the information contained in this document, which is

15 MFI D226, the -- your report to Mr. Jasarevic of the 17th of September,

16 1993, was that based upon all the sources and information that you had

17 asked to be collected over the previous few days?

18 A. I suppose so. This is a summary of all the information. And to

19 be honest, at the time everything pointed to two possible sources. One

20 was the police station, and the other possible source of information was

21 the situation on the ground. There was not much information from the

22 ground because there was no communication. I believe that most of the

23 information came from the police sources. And when I say "the police

24 sources," I imply the police station, the civilian police station in

25 Jablanica, because the cooperation between the military police and the

1 civilian police was correct and at a rather professional level. Their

2 chains of command were separate, and so were the lines of communication.

3 Q. In the document, there's an underlined sentence towards the

4 bottom that says: "The entire IKM of the SVK in Jablanica has been

5 briefed about this event."

6 MR. RE: That's on the second page in the English translation.

7 If that could be shown to the Trial Chamber.

8 Q. How was the IKM in Jablanica briefed about the event?

9 A. I don't know how they were informed. I believe that they knew

10 what this was all about. I personally don't know how they were informed.

11 Here I see the addressee as being the Supreme Command Staff of

12 the IKM. Maybe you can tell how they were informed if you look at the

13 body of this document. Edib Saric --

14 Could you please hold on just for a moment. I would like to look

15 at the text.

16 Q. Of course. Take -- take your time.

17 A. It says here that only Zuka could enter this area without any

18 consequences. It says that he issued a report on the events, the contents

19 of which we are not aware of, and this report was forwarded to the command

20 in Sarajevo, according to our operative information, and so on and so

21 forth. It is possible that a reference is being made to Zulfikar

22 Alispago, who made a report. I believe that members of the team at the

23 IKM did -- I don't know where this came from. I believe that there was

24 information based on which this was drafted, because this is some sort of

25 a -- a summary.

1 Q. Now you're saying that you could not longer remember where it

2 came from?

3 A. What I'm saying is that most of the information came from the

4 police sources. And when I say "the police sources," I imply first and

5 foremost the police station or the public security station, as it was

6 known at the time. Its head was Mr. Zebic. In other words, the

7 information came from the operatives on duty, the policemen who cooperated

8 with the military police company. They had very close cooperation. And I

9 believe that the majority of information came from that -- that direction.

10 In those units, I did not have any official body or organ or person with

11 whom I could communicate. I am implying to the units who came from

12 Sarajevo and who participated supposedly in these crimes.

13 Q. Just under that sentence I was asking you to comment on - that's

14 on page 2 of the English - it says: "For the time being, it is impossible

15 to conduct on-site investigations because of the large number of units,

16 the mood of the units under Ramiz Delalic's command, and the fear that

17 given prominence to this event would result in revolt and the return of

18 all units to Sarajevo which Ramiz Delalic clearly hinted at in talks about

19 this event at Zuka's flat."

20 I just want to ask you to comment on that. What was, if you can

21 now remember, the source of your information for that particular line

22 which you've put in what you called "a summary report"?

23 A. I find it very difficult. As I say, this report is a summary

24 based on several pieces of information. I really couldn't tell you who

25 the source of this particular information was.

1 Why did I write this down? This was some sort of an assessment

2 of the situation in the unit that was headed by Ramiz Delalic. It

3 described the situation and the mood in that unit, and that hence this

4 sentence. This conversation was attended by Edib Saric, who at the time

5 was the commander of a platoon the name of which was the Wolves.

6 Salihamidzic Zijad -- I don't know whether his name was Zijad. There was

7 one person called Salihamidzic in the police radio station. And Sead

8 Brankovic was also a policeman, but we -- whom we had very correct

9 relationship. And I believe that this particular piece of information

10 came from any of these sources, either Brankovic or possibly Salihamidzic.

11 Q. The next line: "The situation in Grabovica is currently under

12 control, which also comes as a result of the fact that" - and this next

13 part is underlined - "in the wake of these events Ramiz Delalic executed

14 one soldier.

15 New sentence: "You will be informed of any new details."

16 Again, casting your memory back, are you able to tell us now what

17 the source of your information was about the alleged execution of a

18 soldier?

19 A. I really wouldn't know. I wouldn't know who the source of this

20 particular piece of information was. I wouldn't be able to answer that,

21 and I don't know whether he was executed or not.

22 As I said a while ago, this was a customary way of communication

23 with the chief of administration when it came to similar things.

24 MR. RE: All right. Could the witness -- the next document I

25 wish to show the witness is MFI D228.

1 Q. Now, while that's on the way, Mr. Eminovic, that was a report

2 which you sent to Mr. Jasarevic. What was Mr. Jasarevic's response to

3 receiving that report?

4 A. Are you referring to the previous document, the one that I had on

5 the screen? You want to know what his response was to that document?

6 Q. I do.

7 A. The response was a request for new information. And you can see

8 it in the following document.

9 Q. All right. That's -- to be quite clear, it's MFI D228, which is

10 a document dated the 18th of September, 1993 addressed to the 6th Corps

11 command chief of military security service. And you told us earlier that

12 was you. Did you receive that document?

13 A. I did. I suppose I did. I can't remember every document.

14 However, it was addressed to me. I must have -- I must have received it.

15 There's no reason why I shouldn't have.

16 Q. Now, the order says: "In order to brief the Presidency of the

17 republic and the Supreme Command Staff of the army, please forward a

18 report on the killing of the civilian population in the villages of Uzdol

19 and Kriz, Prozor municipality, and Grabovica -- municipality, Jablanica

20 municipality. The report should include the place and time of the event,

21 the establishment of the unit that took part in the event," and so on.

22 Now, just leaving out Uzdol for the moment and concentrating on

23 Grabovica, what was your response to receiving this particular follow-up

24 order from the chief of the military security service?

25 A. The previous report -- when General Jasarevic sent this request,

1 he did not have the previous report in his hands. And my response to this

2 was as follows: I made an attempt to communicate as the information that

3 is requested with regard to Uzdol and Kriz in the municipality of Prozor,

4 and I tried to establish communication with them but I encountered a lot

5 of problems there. Mr. Jasarevic urged us on several occasions to send

6 the report to him. In any case, my response was that I had partly met the

7 request as per the previous document and that we were trying to get in

8 touch with the independent battalion in Prozor in order to get more

9 information. To be honest, this was the first time that I ever learnt of

10 anything that might have happened in Uzdol. Before that, I never knew

11 that anything happened in Uzdol in the first place.

12 MR. RE: Is that a convenient time today, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Now the hearing for today is adjourned, and

14 we'll meet tomorrow morning.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of

17 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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