Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                            Friday, 18 March 2005

 2                            [Open session]

 3                            [The witness entered court]

 4                            [The accused entered court]

 5                            --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE LIU:  Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8    IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

10             Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

11             Good morning, Witness.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13             JUDGE LIU:  Are you ready to continue?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Re.

17                            WITNESS:  AHMED SALIHAMIDZIC [Resumed]

18                            [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                            Examined by Mr. Re: [Continued]

20        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Salihamidzic.  Yesterday you were telling the

21    Trial Chamber about a conversation on the 9th of September, 1993 with

22    Mr. Edib Saric and your chief, Mr. Emin Zebic.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I'd just take you back one -- one moment to remind you of what

25    you said yesterday.  You said that Mr. Edib Saric had confirmed that you

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 1    insisted in view of the fact that he had -- that army troops were

 2    insisted -- that you insisted some of the military go with you to

 3    Grabovica.  Now, who was Mr. Edib Saric?

 4        A.   I didn't know Edib Saric before that, but I was told that he was

 5    the commander of a unit called Igman Wolves, which was billeted on the

 6    left bank of the Neretva River in Grabovica on the premises of the

 7    administration of the Grabovica hydroelectric power plant.

 8        Q.   And we know it's been a long time, but could you, if possible,

 9    just tell the Trial Chamber what the information was that you were given

10    at that point about civilians being killed.  Just -- just try and be as

11    specific as you can.

12        A.   They still didn't have any reliable information other than they

13    assumed that there were some civilians who were killed in the village of

14    Grabovica.

15        Q.   What was your information at that point as to who had killed the

16    civilians?

17        A.   Edib Saric himself said that units had arrived from Sarajevo and

18    that it was most likely that soldiers from those units who arrived from

19    Sarajevo did that.

20        Q.   And what did Mr. Zebic instruct you to do?

21        A.   Mr. Zebic told me that it would be good to go to Grabovica to

22    check the information.  I then suggested, since these were military

23    formations, to also take somebody from the unit, from the military

24    structures.  So we agreed to ask that the commander of the military police

25    unit comes with us, which Zebic agreed to.  So within the hour, as soon as

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 1    we found him, Sead Kurt and I - who is the military police commander in

 2    the 44th Brigade - set off in a military -- in a police vehicle, which I

 3    drove to Grabovica.

 4        Q.   All right.  Was Grabovica within your police station's area of

 5    responsibility or jurisdiction?

 6        A.   No.  Our police station was next to the Aleksin Han bridge in the

 7    direction of Mostar.  Grabovica is about 5 kilometres farther down-river

 8    from there.

 9        Q.   Was it within the jurisdiction of the Mostar police?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.

11        Q.   Do you know of any reason why the Mostar police couldn't have

12    gone to Grabovica on that day or weren't involved in this?

13             MR. MORRISSEY:  Well--

14             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

15             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, the first part of the question is

16    not objectable -- objectionable.  The witness hasn't given any evidence at

17    all as to the second part of it.  So the question itself has got two

18    parts.  The first part, I don't object to.  The second part, I would.  And

19    in any event, putting the two questions in one question can't be right.

20    So that's the objection.

21             JUDGE LIU:  Well, I believe the answer to the first question is

22    very simple.  Then Mr. Re asked the second question.

23             MR. MORRISSEY:  Well --

24             JUDGE LIU:  It --

25             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes, possibly, yes.

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 1             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  But if there's an objection, Mr. Re, maybe you

 2    split your question.  Ask this witness one by one.

 3             MR. RE:  I'm actually only trying to speed things up, but that's

 4    why I asked the two at once on something I didn't think was an issue.

 5        Q.   Mr. Salihamidzic, do you know of any reason why the Mostar police

 6    couldn't have gone to Grabovica on that day?  As briefly as possible.

 7        A.   The main road to Mostar was blocked.  It was exposed to the fire

 8    of the HVO forces.

 9        Q.   What time did you get to Grabovica approximately?

10        A.   We arrived at Grabovica at 1500 hours.

11        Q.   How far -- or where did you go to in Grabovica?

12        A.   We arrived on the inhabited part on the right bank of the Neretva

13    River.  That was the village of Grabovica.

14        Q.   Were there any soldiers there?

15        A.   When we came to the village, in front of the building where the

16    old railway station used to be there was an improvised checkpoint that was

17    set up and a soldier was standing there.

18        Q.   What did the soldier do?

19        A.   We stopped the car.  We came out, showed our ID.  He asked us

20    where we were going.  I said that we were there to speak to some of the

21    commanders.  He told us that about 10 metres from the place where we were

22    talking -- and he showed us one of two men in civilian clothing who were

23    there, and he said that that was his commander.  We went inside.  This man

24    approached us.  That was the commander of the Independent Battalion.  He

25    introduced himself.  Next to him was another man, also in civilian

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 1    clothes.  He was a refugee.  His name was Zulfo.

 2        Q.   What did the -- what was the name of the commander of the

 3    Independent Battalion?

 4        A.   I didn't know -- I didn't find that out immediately, but later I

 5    found out that it was Adnan Solakovic.  He did introduce himself, but I

 6    didn't really understand it or hear it well.

 7        Q.   Did you know a person called Ivan Pranjic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What about Stoja Pranjic?

10        A.   Stoja Pranjic is the wife of Ivan Pranjic.

11        Q.   Did you see them when you went to Grabovica?

12        A.   We first spoke with Adnan and Zulfo, and then later in the

13    courtyard of the house I saw Ivan and Stoja Pranjic.  They were very

14    frightened.  I talked to them for a little bit.

15        Q.   All right.    Let's just go back to your conversation with Adnan

16    Solakovic.  What did he tell you?  What did you speak about?

17        A.   I spoke to Adnan Solakovic, and he told me that over the past 24

18    hours at least five civilians were killed of Croat ethnicity.  He -- this

19    refugee who had been there for some time told me their names.  The

20    refugee's name, again, was Zulfo.  I found out that they were most

21    probably killed and the people who were most probably killed were Marinko

22    Maric, his wife Luca, his father Martin, their neighbour Ilka Maric, and

23    her daughter, Ruzica.  Yes, Ruzica.

24        Q.   What did Zulfo tell you about how they had been killed or what

25    had happened to them?

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 1        A.   Zulfo said, and Adnan confirmed it, that soldiers of the unit

 2    which was about 100 metres down-river towards Mostar had killed those

 3    civilians.  Zulfo said the same thing.  According to what they said, the

 4    three women's bodies were seen near the house of Marinko Maric and the

 5    body of Maric Marinko was up-river from this checkpoint, at which point we

 6    entered, towards a place called Crno Vrelo.  That was perhaps some 300

 7    metres up-river.  The body of Marinko Maric was lying below the road.

 8        Q.   Did you, Mr. Salihamidzic, know any of the people you just listed

 9    as having been probably killed on that day:  Marinko Maric, Luca Maric,

10    Martin Maric, Ilka Maric, and Ruzica Maric?

11        A.   Yes, I personally knew Marinko Maric.  I met him in 1992 when I

12    worked in UNIS in Jablanica and he worked in Igman.  Those two companies

13    had a business arrangement, and that's when we met.  At the same time, I

14    met his wife Luca.  He was a mechanical engineer by profession.

15        Q.   And what was the name of the unit to which the soldiers belonged

16    that Adnan Solakovic said had killed the civilians?

17        A.   I don't know what the unit was called, but I know who the

18    commander of the unit was.

19        Q.   When did you find that out?

20        A.   Adnan told me that on that occasion.

21        Q.   What did he tell you?

22        A.   That what was done -- actually, that the soldiers were killed by

23    soldiers of the unit that was billeted downriver, and the commander was --

24    of that unit was Ramiz Delalic, Celo.

25             Can I add something?  Adnan also told me that we should not be

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 1    going down to the other checkpoint, because he would not be able to

 2    guarantee that we would come back alive.

 3        Q.   Could you see the other checkpoint from where you were near the

 4    old railway station?

 5        A.   Yes, I could.  It was about 100 metres down-river before the road

 6    that turns right into the village.  From before, I know that the house of

 7    Anto Maric was behind the checkpoint, and there was a soldier standing at

 8    the checkpoint.

 9        Q.   Do you know what Adnan Solakovic's soldiers were doing when the

10    civilians were being killed?

11        A.   Other than the soldier at the first checkpoint, I didn't see any

12    other soldiers.  I don't know what they were doing.

13        Q.   Did Adnan Solakovic tell you where he was or what his soldiers

14    were doing at the time when the civilians, the five civilians you named

15    earlier, were killed by soldiers of the other unit?

16        A.   No, he didn't say anything.  He didn't tell me.  The only thing

17    he told me was that he couldn't guarantee that Ivan and Stoja would stay

18    alive.  Actually, he said the following:  That they shouldn't try anything

19    with Celo's unit; otherwise, these people would not stay alive.  And he

20    said that we should try to get those two elderly people out of there.

21        Q.   Did he say anything to you when you spoke to him about whether or

22    not he was in a position to prevent any killings in the village?

23        A.   Yes.  He just said that only through a fight between his unit and

24    the unit of Ramiz Delalic, Celo, could this killing have been prevented.

25        Q.   You spoke earlier about Ivan and Stoja Pranjic.  You said they

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 1    were in the courtyard.  Were they there with -- were they participating in

 2    the conversation between you and Mr. Solakovic?

 3        A.   Very little, because they were very frightened.

 4        Q.   Had you known them from before?

 5        A.   Yes.  I was better acquainted with Ivan.  I only knew Stoja by

 6    sight.  Earlier I used to go fishing in that area, so I knew Ivan very

 7    well.  Also, they were the mother and father of a neighbour of mine in

 8    Jablanica.  Her name is Krstic Olga.

 9        Q.   Were Ivan and Stoja Pranjic residents of Grabovica?

10        A.   Yes, they permanently resided in Grabovica.

11        Q.   You said that Adnan Solakovic expressed some concern for their

12    safety.  What was your response?

13        A.   I told him that I would try to do that, because I knew their

14    son-in-law, Nehru Manjusak, and I said that I would tell him.  He was a

15    cook in Zulfikar Alispago's unit, and I intended to go and see him

16    immediately to tell him that he should try to do that.

17        Q.   You've said you saw -- there was a soldier at the checkpoint when

18    you came into the village.  You spoke to Mr. Solakovic.  You saw

19    another -- another soldier at another checkpoint about 100 metres away.

20    At that particular point, when you were talking to Mr. Solakovic, did

21    you -- were there any other soldiers in the area?

22        A.   Except for the soldier at the checkpoint, there were no other

23    soldiers.  I didn't see any, at least.

24        Q.   Did you hear anything that indicated that soldiers were in the

25    area?

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 1        A.   Yes.  You could hear several shots fired in the depth of the

 2    village.

 3        Q.   Where were they coming from, these shots?

 4        A.   From the road in the direction of the railway tracks, deeper

 5    inside the village, on the right bank.

 6        Q.   A little earlier you said that Zulfo had said that three women's

 7    bodies were near the house of Marinko Maric and Maric Maric [sic] was

 8    up-river from the checkpoint and the body of Marinko Maric was lying below

 9    the road.  Did --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- he say anything about Martin Maric, where his body was?

12        A.   Nobody knew about Martin Maric's body.  He was paralysed.  He lay

13    in his house.  I know that Marinko's wife, Luca, took care of him.  She

14    even came from Konjic and left her husband there in order to care for his

15    father.

16        Q.   After speaking to Mr. Solakovic in the old railway station, what

17    did you and Kurt do?

18        A.   After finding out the information, we started back.  And then we

19    agreed to go in the direction of Crno Vrelo, in the direction of

20    Jablanica, and that he would look on the right side of the road and I

21    would look at the left side of the road.  After covering about 150 to 200

22    metres, we stopped at a shoulder of the road.  This was at my suggestion

23    because already you couldn't see down to the Neretva from the right side

24    of the road.  So I parked the car.  He stayed by the car.  And we had a

25    look around.  I went all the way down to the river bed to check if perhaps

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 1    the body that they were talking about hadn't been pushed into the river.

 2    But I didn't see anything.  I didn't find the body.

 3        Q.   Just going back very briefly.  You -- you said you spoke to

 4    Mr. Solakovic.  Then you started back.  When you came out of the railway

 5    station speaking to Mr. Solakovic, was the soldier who had stopped you at

 6    first still there?

 7        A.   Yes, the soldier was there.  He came up to me and said that he

 8    was afraid that the soldiers in the unit next to them were committing

 9    killings, and he was afraid because he wasn't a Muslim.

10             I went back briefly and told Adnan what he said and told him that

11    it would be good if he moved him from there so that -- to prevent anything

12    from happening.

13        Q.   Who did he say the soldiers were killing?

14        A.   They were killing the Croat inhabitants of Grabovica.

15        Q.   Why did you drive back along the side of the road looking -- what

16    were you looking for when you drove back towards Jablanica with Mr. Kurt?

17        A.   We wanted to check if Marinko Maric's body was still there, which

18    was mentioned during our conversation with Zulfo.  Zulfo said that the

19    body was after the checkpoint towards the Crno Jezero [as interpreted].

20        Q.   Was that all you were looking for, just his body specifically, or

21    were you looking for other things along the way?

22        A.   His body or anything else.  Anything that would confirm what they

23    had told us.  Regardless of the body that we found, we would look and stop

24    and inspect the body; However, we didn't find any body -- any bodies.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It's not Crno Jezero

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 1    but Crno Vrelo.

 2             MR. RE:

 3        Q.   When you were down by the river looking for the body, was there

 4    any traffic on the road?

 5        A.   After I had looked around on my way back, I noticed that across

 6    the bridge at Crno Vrelo in the direction of Jablanica a car passed.  I

 7    asked Kurt, "Who was it that passed?"  And he said that Celo had come by

 8    in his car, had stopped next to him, and asked him, "Are you looking?"

 9    And -- but, "Just look at what they're doing to our people."  And he was

10    probably thinking of the refugees, the people who had been brought from

11    the Dretelj camp and who were accommodated in the settlement on the left

12    bank in Grabovica.

13        Q.   All right.  Where did you go with Mr. Kurt after that?

14        A.   We went back to Jablanica to convey all the information to our

15    superiors.

16        Q.   Approximately how long was it between when you left and when you

17    returned to the police station?  I mean, what time did you get back

18    approximately?

19        A.   I wasn't really paying attention to that, but perhaps the whole

20    thing lasted from an hour to an hour and a half.

21        Q.   What about Ivan and Stoja Pranjic?  Did they go back with you?

22        A.   No.  They remained there.  Upon returning to Jablanica, I

23    immediately went to the police station.  My chief, Emin Zebic, was there.

24    I informed him orally about what I had found out.  And immediately

25    afterwards, I went to Olga Krstic's house.  I found her brother-in-law,

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 1    Nehru, there and told him that he should go there and save Ivan and Stoja,

 2    to save Ivan and Stoja.  He said that he'd ask Zuka to go down there

 3    together and to do that.  And that's what happened.

 4        Q.   Why didn't you and Mr. Kurt take Ivan and Stoja Pranjic back with

 5    you?

 6        A.   We were a little afraid because of the warning Adnan Solakovic

 7    had given us.  We were afraid that we might be intercepted on the way, on

 8    the right bank by these soldiers and that because we were taking them

 9    away, they might attack us, as well as these Croats.

10        Q.   What's your ethnicity?

11        A.   I'm a Muslim, a Bosniak.

12        Q.   You just said that you orally informed Mr. Zebic about what --

13    what you'd found out.  Did he give you any instructions about what you

14    should do?

15        A.   In fact I made a suggestion; I suggested that we wait, because it

16    was necessary to get Ivan and Stoja out rapidly, and I said it would be

17    good to wait to see whether they would come and then to gather more

18    information and that afterwards I would draft the written part of the

19    report, and he agreed.

20        Q.   Now, moving to the next day, which was September the 10th.  Did

21    you see the Pranjics on the 10th?

22        A.   Yes.  In the morning, on the 10th, perhaps at about 9.00 or half

23    past 9.00, between 9.00 and 10.00, I went to Olga Krstic's house.  That's

24    their -- she's their daughter.  And I saw Ivan and Stoja there.  I spoke

25    to them.  Ivan was a fairly taciturn man.  Stoja would speak the most.

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 1             I asked them to tell me the first and last names and the

 2    approximate age of all the Croat inhabitants who lived on the right bank

 3    at the time.  She did that, and I compiled the list.

 4        Q.   How many were on the list?

 5        A.   There were 30 individuals on that list.

 6        Q.   Was it a handwritten list you compiled?

 7        A.   Yes, it was handwritten.

 8        Q.   Do you know what happened to your list?  Or what did you do with

 9    it?

10        A.   On that day, I had other things to do.  I had to gather other

11    information.  So on the following day, I drafted an official note.  That

12    was on the 11th.  And the list was attached to that note.

13        Q.   How had Ivan and Stoja Pranjic managed to get from Grabovica to

14    Jablanica by the 10th of September?

15        A.   They told me that their son-in-law -- their daughter's son-in-law

16    had appeared with Zuka, with Zulfikar Alispago.  They arrived in a van and

17    they took them to Jablanica.

18        Q.   Did you speak to them more - that's Stoja and Ivan Pranjic -

19    about what they had seen or heard in Grabovica?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes.

21        Q.   What --

22        A.   They'd calmed down a bit.  By that time, it was possible to speak

23    to them, and it was Stoja, rather than Ivan, who told me what had

24    happened, who said that on the 8th in the afternoon they were in front of

25    their house.  Ivan and Stoja were in front of their house and Marinko

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 1    Maric appeared and they had a chat.  Then the soldiers arrived.  They

 2    passed by them.  And immediately afterwards, shooting broke out, and

 3    shortly after that his wife, Luca -- Marinko's wife, Luca, arrived in a

 4    state and asked what he was doing there since the troops were driving them

 5    out of their houses.  And Marinko immediately went downstream with her,

 6    because that's where their house was, and Ivan and Stoja didn't see them

 7    after that.

 8        Q.   Had they seen any bodies?

 9        A.   Ivan and Stoja hadn't seen any bodies.  They didn't dare leave

10    their house.  But as these refugees provided them with information on that

11    morning, on the 9th, the refugees from Stolac went to get bread on the

12    left bank of the Neretva and they then noticed a body and they assumed

13    that it could have been Marinko Maric.  And some women who had come from

14    Marinko Maric's house said that they had seen three bodies next to

15    Marinko's house, Maric Luca's house, Ilka's -- the bodies of Marinko,

16    Luca, Ilka, and Ruzica.

17        Q.   Now, what about the bridge?  Had any of them been on the bridge?

18        A.   The refugees who went to get bread said that at the bridge that

19    joins the left and right bank they saw blood.  They saw blood on the

20    bridge, but there was no body there.

21        Q.   Was speaking to -- was your speaking to Ivan and Stoja a part of

22    your information-gathering on the 10th of September?

23        A.   Well, I spoke to them to gather as much information as possible

24    in relation to this affair.

25        Q.   What else did you do on the 10th of September to gather

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 1    information?

 2        A.   Semso Halebic came to the police station, and I provided him with

 3    this information that I had.  He was a security officer in the 44th

 4    Brigade.  I provided him with the information I'd gathered, and he

 5    suggested that we speak to some of the guards who were securing the

 6    administrative building of the Grabovica hydroelectric power plant.  We

 7    went there, and we found Alija Turkic, who was on guard duty between the

 8    8th and 9th.

 9        Q.   Who was Alija Turkic?

10        A.   Alija Turkic was an employee of the hydroelectric power plant on

11    the Neretva, a driver by profession.  But during this period of time, he

12    worked as a guard in that facility.

13        Q.   And were there soldiers at the Grabovica hydroelectric plant?

14    Were there soldiers based there?

15        A.   This was the administrative building of the power plant, and the

16    Igman Wolves was located there, which was commanded by Edib Saric.

17        Q.   What did Alija Turkic tell you?

18        A.   Alija Turkic more or less confirmed the arrival of the troops in

19    the afternoon on the 8th.  He said that as soon as they had arrived on the

20    scene, they started shooting.  Then when night started to fall, they lit a

21    fire, and given the noise they were making, he assumed that they had been

22    drinking.  So throughout the night between the 8th and the 9th, there was

23    shooting on the right bank.  The administrative building is on the left

24    bank of the Neretva.

25             He also said that in the morning at about 5.00, between 5.00 and

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 1    6.00, an elderly Croatian married couple came to see him and told him that

 2    two elderly Croats had been taken away from their house on the left bank,

 3    and they suggested that the command be informed of the fact.

 4        Q.   Do you mean on that very morning, the morning of the 10th of

 5    September?  Is that the morning you're referring to?

 6        A.   No, on the 9th of September in the morning.  They were there

 7    between the 8th and the 9th.  It was on the 9th in the morning at about

 8    half past 5.00.  That's when this elderly couple came to see him.

 9        Q.   Now, did that complete your information-gathering for the day,

10    when you spoke to Mr. Turkic?

11        A.   Well, yes.  I thought I had completed my information-gathering,

12    but about 1830 hours Zuka arrived at the station and Edib Saric arrived

13    too.

14        Q.   Did you speak to them?

15        A.   Yes, I spoke to them.

16        Q.   And was Mr. Zebic there when you spoke to them?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. Zebic was present.

18        Q.   Now, what did Zuka and Edib Saric tell you?

19        A.   They told us that they had surveyed the area and that they had

20    established that on the right bank six bodies had been found and on the

21    left bank two bodies had been found and that among the bodies that had

22    been found on the right bank, there was a child, and apparently 14

23    inhabitants had been evacuated.  And two children were still alive.  They

24    had been evacuated too.

25        Q.   To -- you mean also?  They had also been evacuated?  I'm sorry, I

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 1    heard the word "to" in my hear phones and I thought it was "too," "o-o,"

 2    the other way around.

 3             Mr. Salihamidzic, you were of course just then referring to

 4    Grabovica, weren't you, where Zuka and Edib Saric --

 5        A.   No, I said two children had also been evacuated.  In addition to

 6    the 14 adults, there were two children who had also been evacuated and

 7    they had been put up in Zulfikar Alispago's command.

 8        Q.   When you were saying that they had established on the right bank

 9    six bodies had been found and on the left bank two bodies had been found,

10    I take it you were referring to the village of Grabovica?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I'm referring to the same area that we more or less

12    visited.

13        Q.   Had Zuka and Edib Saric seen or found the bodies themselves, or

14    was it something they had been told?

15        A.   I don't know how this was done.  They just relayed this

16    information to us.

17        Q.   And the dead child and the two children that were evacuated, were

18    they from the same family?

19        A.   At that time, I didn't know that.  Later it was established that

20    they were from that family, Zadro.  In fact, Zuka and Edib didn't mention

21    any names.  No one mentioned any first or last names.  Reference was only

22    made to individuals of Croat nationality.

23        Q.   How long was Zuka and Mr. Saric at the police station for?

24        A.   Not for very long.  They weren't there for very long.  Perhaps

25    about 15 minutes.  Half an hour at the most.

Page 18

 1        Q.   Did you communicate with Zuka again that night?

 2        A.   Later I saw Sejo Brankovic.  He was from Mostar.  He worked in

 3    the Mostar MUP.  And at that time, I think he also worked for the State

 4    Security Service and he had been deployed in Jablanica.  He was in

 5    Jablanica.  He told me there were problems in Grabovica again and that

 6    some girl called (redacted), a girl who worked as a

 7    cleaning lady in the settlement up there.  She was a refugee, he said, and

 8    two other girls had fled and they had fled to the dam of the power plant

 9    near Grabovica.

10        Q.   I asked whether you had communicated with Zuka again that night,

11    and you said later you saw Sejo Brankovic.  How did you come to see Sejo

12    Brankovic and where did you see him?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.  First I met Sejo Brankovic and he told me -- he'd

14    spoken to Zuka over the phone, and he said that we should go to his flat

15    together.  That flat was just behind the MUP building, perhaps 50 metres

16    behind it.  And we went there together to examine the situation.

17        Q.   That's Zuka's flat?  You went to Zuka's flat?

18        A.   Yes, we went to Zuka's flat.  Zuka was there, Edib Saric was

19    there, and someone called Namik was there.  It was said that he worked as

20    a security officer in the army.

21        Q.   Do you remember his family name at the moment, Namik?

22        A.   Later I found out that his name was Namik Dzankovic.

23        Q.   And just to go back slightly.  Was it at -- when those people

24    were there that Sejo Brankovic told you about someone having been raped

25    in -- in Grabovica?  Was it at that point?

Page 19

 1        A.   Sejo told me that he had such information and this is why we

 2    should go to see Zuka.  When we arrived in Zuka's flat, Zuka confirmed

 3    that certain things had taken place and he in fact confirmed what Sejo

 4    Brankovic had previously told me.

 5        Q.   You'd been to Grabovica the day before and Adnan Solakovic had

 6    told you about the behaviour of one unit there, which was Celo's unit,

 7    which had been killing some Croat civilians.  Was that discussed when you

 8    were at Zuka's flat?

 9        A.   I don't think that was really discussed, but it was said that it

10    was the soldiers who did what they did the previous day, who had raped the

11    girl, the soldiers from the same unit who had killed people moved over to

12    the left bank and raped this refugee girl.

13        Q.   Was any action suggested that should be taken?

14        A.   That's what was being discussed when this discussion was

15    interrupted quite abruptly, because Ramiz Delalic, Celo, appeared at the

16    door together with one of his men, who was a large man, just like him.  I

17    don't know whether that was his deputy, an escort.  And as soon as he

18    entered, he looked in my direction.  He looked at me.

19        Q.   I'll just stop you there.

20             MR. RE:  Perhaps we could go into private session for a moment

21    here, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

23             MR. RE:

24        Q.   What -- what did you --

25             JUDGE LIU:  Wait.  Wait.

Page 20

 1             MR. RE: I'm sorry.  I apologise.

 2                            [Private session]

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 21

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13                            [Open session]

14             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, before anything happens further,

15    that last part there, in my submission, ought not to be in -- in private

16    session.

17             MR. RE:  I'll repeat it on record.  It's all right.  I'll just

18    read the question back to the witness.

19             JUDGE LIU:  Well, that's not necessary.  Maybe at a later stage

20    we could have the protective measures lifted later on.

21             MR. MORRISSEY:  With respect to that, yes, Your Honour.  Thanks.

22             JUDGE LIU:  You may proceed, Mr. Re.

23             MR. RE:

24        Q.   Mr. Salihamidzic, you were just saying -- I won't go through the

25    whole thing.  You were just saying that it had been said that Vehbija

Page 22

 1    Karic had said -- one of the soldiers had asked, "What would happen if one

 2    of the Croats were put -- were to put them up, protested?"  He said, "Kill

 3    them and throw them into the lake, or into the Neretva," or something like

 4    that.

 5             My question is:  When that was said, who was present in the room?

 6        A.   I was present, Zuka, Edib Saric, Namik, and Sejo Brankovic.

 7        Q.   Did Zuka make a telephone call?

 8        A.   Yes.  After Celo left the room with his escort, Zuka picked up

 9    the receiver, dialed a number, and said that there were problems, that he

10    needed to go back.  And then when he hung up, he said, "Sefer is in

11    Konjic" and that he had telephoned him and told him that he should return

12    in order to deal with the problems.

13        Q.   Who is Sefer?  Who is the Sefer he was referring to?

14        A.   Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

15        Q.   When he spoke to the person on the phone, did he use the

16    word "Sefer," or was it something he said afterwards?

17        A.   More or less he said, "Sefer, we have problems.  You need to come

18    back to Jablanica as soon as possible in order to resolve these problems."

19        Q.   Mr. Zebic had asked you to prepare a written report after you'd

20    given him the oral report.  Did you prepare a written report?  And if so,

21    when?

22        A.   Yes.  I made my report the next day, on the 11th, typed it out,

23    and submitted it to Mr. Emin Zebic.

24                            [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. RE:  Can the witness please be shown MFI D222.

Page 23

 1        Q.   Just have a look at that document.

 2             MR. RE:  Can the witness please be shown both -- all the pages in

 3    the document.

 4             MR. MORRISSEY:  Sorry, Your Honours, the -- what's on the

 5    English-speaking page seems to be the Brankovic report.  I think the --

 6    the English version of this witness's report is on the third page.  I just

 7    want to be clear.  I'm not sure which one my friend wants him to look at,

 8    which -- either one he can, of course, but ...

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

10             MR. RE:  The Bosnian.

11             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes.

12             MR. RE:  I've got the Bosnian on the --

13             JUDGE LIU:  No.  The English version on the screen.  Now we have

14    the official note here.

15             MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.  Thank you.

16             Yes, that's okay.  We have it.

17             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

18             MR. RE:

19        Q.   Mr. Salihamidzic, can you just -- have you just seen the

20    document?  And can you identify that?  Is that the official note you

21    prepared in relation to the events in Grabovica?

22        A.   Yes, that's the one.

23        Q.   All right.  And is everything recorded in that document based

24    upon the information you gathered, the interviews you had with people, and

25    the conversations you -- you had with the people you've described in your

Page 24

 1    evidence this morning?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   And is it a compilation of what you knew as of -- about the 11th

 4    of September, 1993?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I'd just like to, if possible, fill in some blanks which appear

 7    to be on that particular document.

 8             MR. RE:  If you could just move back to the first page, please.

 9        Q.   And can you please highlight the first -- or the first half of

10    the page, enlargen it.

11        Q.   There's a name in handwriting at the bottom of the first

12    paragraph to the right --

13             MR. RE:  Stop.  Stop.  Stop.  Stop.

14        Q.   To the right of the word "batoljona."  What's the word there in

15    handwriting?

16        A.   I can't see it now.  Could you please scroll it down a little bit

17    more.  Just scroll it down a little bit.

18             MR. RE:  Up.  Up.  Up.  Stop.  Bang in the middle of that one, to

19    the left.

20             This doesn't work very well.

21        A.   Commander Solakovic.  "Solakovic" was written later -- written in

22    later because we found that out later.  This is something -- this last

23    name was added in by Mr. Zebic.  Although, it's not correct here.  It

24    still states "Sokolovic," but it should be Solakovic.

25        Q.   Okay.  If you'd look at -- the name seems to be written again on

Page 25

 1    the left-hand side on the --

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Is that the same?

 4        A.   Yes, it's the same name.

 5        Q.   If you could turn to the second page, please, and please

 6    highlight the second or third paragraph from the bottom.  If you'd just

 7    scroll down. There's a name which is handwritten in.  It says:  "Namikom

 8    Dankovic."

 9        A. That's Dzankovic.  The chief, Mr. Zebic, wrote that in later after

10    he found out the last name.  He -- he put it in.

11             MR. RE:  I move for that to be received into evidence.  It has an

12    MFI number at the moment.

13             JUDGE LIU:  I believe it has already -- has already been admitted

14    into the evidence.  Right?  Yes, it's admitted into evidence already.

15                            [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             MR. RE:  Could the witness please be shown the next document, MFI

17    D221.

18             JUDGE LIU:  Well, as for this previous document, I believe the

19    parties have to work together to sort out the problem of the translation,

20    because we found two versions which are slightly different.  Maybe after

21    this sitting the parties could meet together.

22             MR. RE:  We most certainly will do that.

23             I said "MFI221."  I actually meant P215.  I apologise for that.

24             Now, could you just scroll down through that, please.

25        Q.   Mr. Salihamidzic, I know that's not particularly -- can you read

Page 26

 1    that on the screen?

 2        A.   The top, I can.  But the bottom part, it's difficult.

 3             MR. RE:  Can you please turn the page over, to see whether you

 4    can read that page.

 5        Q.   Can you read that on the screen, or do you need a paper copy -- a

 6    paper copy to be given to you?

 7        A.   It's difficult to read, but I can see that this is some kind of

 8    report along the military lines.  I didn't write this one.

 9        Q.   Had you seen this document before coming to give your evidence in

10    The Hague?

11        A.   No, I haven't seen it before.

12        Q.   What is your -- can you read the part that says:  "The whole of

13    the Jablanica SVK IKM, civilian authorities, and the MUP organs are aware

14    of the incident.  Work on the clarification of this case, gathering of

15    operative information on the exact number of dead, how they were murdered,

16    and detection of possible perpetrators has been done in cooperation with

17    (illegible).  On-site is currently impossible to carry out because of the

18    large number -- large number of units in the Grabovica area, the attitude

19    of units led by Ramiz Delalic and fear that giving importance to this

20    incident would result in (illegible, missing text) return of the whole

21    unit to Sarajevo, which would directly endanger the planned action on

22    Mostar."

23             Now, that information refers to your police station.

24        A.   This mentions my report.  My name is mentioned.  It says that I

25    was -- I was the one who went down there.

Page 27

 1             From what I can see, Mr. Dzankovic is writing a report to his

 2    superiors.

 3        Q.   All right.  I just want you to comment upon, from your knowledge

 4    of your investigations, what you saw and what you heard, the accuracy of

 5    the part which I just read out to you.

 6             MR. MORRISSEY:  Well, Your Honours, I don't mind the -- excuse

 7    me --

 8             JUDGE LIU:  Well --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please look at --

10             JUDGE LIU:  Please wait for a minute.

11             Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

12             MR. MORRISSEY:  I'm sorry, just the witness -- it's not the

13    witness's fault.  I don't -- I'm quite happy for the Prosecutor to show

14    the witness that passage and -- and ask the witness for his comments, if

15    needs be, but I don't agree that the Prosecutor is allowed to make a

16    comment, as he did on the transcript, to say, "Now, that information" --

17    he said this at line -- page 26, Line 21, and without asking a question.

18    He just made the statement:  "Now, that information refers to your police

19    station."  Now, Your Honours have got that in front of you and it plainly

20    doesn't not refer to his police station at all, so that it was a leading

21    question and it was -- it contained false information.

22             So I don't mind the witness being asked to comment on that

23    passage.  And he's perfectly entitled to do so as far as he knows.  But

24    it's that passage this he's got to comment on, not the proposition that

25    was put by Mr. Re, particularly when it's not a truthful proposition.

Page 28

 1             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Re.

 2             MR. RE:  But the commentary was entirely unnecessary about it

 3    being false and untruthful.  That was a slip on my part and I apologise.

 4    I read Jablanica and MUP in my own mind and saw them as the police

 5    station.

 6             JUDGE LIU:  You may ask the witness to comment on that section.

 7             MR. RE:

 8        Q.   Can you please comment on the accuracy of that section based upon

 9    what you yourself observed.

10        A.   I ask see that this is a report which was probably drafted by

11    Dzankovic, from what I can see at the bottom.  He is sending a report to

12    his superior command.  A joint commission comprising MUP members is

13    mentioned.  This is just a proposal.  I don't think that this ever

14    actually reached us.  This is a proposal that these things should be done,

15    but this is something that was never actually implemented.

16        Q.   Now, were you involved in any continuing investigation in

17    Grabovica as to what happened in Grabovica, beyond the information you

18    gathered and put in your report on about the 11th of September, 1993?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Was any further request, to your knowledge, ever made to the

21    Grabovica -- the Jablanica police station to assist in any further

22    investigation of what happened in Grabovica?

23        A.   No, no request ever came, as far as I know.  Had it arrived, my

24    chief would have probably told me about it.

25        Q.   When was the last -- when was the next time after you wrote your

Page 29

 1    report -- your official note about the 11th of September, 1993 -- when was

 2    the next time you heard about any investigations in relation to what

 3    happened in Grabovica?

 4        A.   I didn't know anything about any investigation.  Our public

 5    security station in Jablanica didn't do anything about this.  The next

 6    time I heard about this case was in 1998, when I was called, after I

 7    retired, to see a crime-fighting inspector, to provide a statement about

 8    these events.

 9             MR. RE:  Can the witness please be shown document MFI235.

10        Q.   Now, have you seen this document -- had you seen this document

11    before you came to The Hague to give your evidence here?

12        A.   I've never seen this document before.

13        Q.   Now, there's -- if you look at the third -- or the first line

14    underneath "To the chief of the UB, Mr. Jusuf Jasarevic personally."  It

15    says:  "The following 30 persons lived in the Grabovica area where the

16    massacre of Croatian civilians took place," and there are 30 names listed.

17             And under this it says:  "Of these people, Ivan Pranjic and Stoja

18    Pranjic are still alive."

19             Now, you said that -- I think it was Ivan or Stoja Pranjic gave

20    you a list of 30 people who were in Grabovica.  Are those the people on

21    the list that they gave you?

22        A.   Thirty people are on this list here.  I took their names down by

23    hand according to Stoja's statement.  This is obviously typed out.  I gave

24    the list to Mr. Zebic, and I never saw it again.  I assume that this is

25    the list that I made.  It was probably typed out based on the list that I

Page 30

 1    compiled, which was based on the statement of Stoja Pranjic.  I know some

 2    people from this list.  I cannot recall all of them though.

 3        Q.   Does the information in this report -- if it could just be

 4    scrolled down so the witness could see the bottom two paragraphs -- or

 5    three paragraphs.  Does that accord with the information you had gathered

 6    about what happened in Grabovica as of the 11th of September, 1993?

 7        A.   Yes, that's it.  I agree with what it says here, that "Of the

 8    above-named inhabitants, Ivan and Stoja Pranjic are still alive and with

 9    whom Adnan Solakovic and some of his men were staying, and they protected

10    them and evacuated them."  This is more or less the information that I am

11    aware of.

12        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the last paragraph.  It has -- and

13    bearing the mind the date of this is the 29th of September, 1993, the last

14    paragraph says:  "It has been agreed that the on-site investigation and

15    exhumation work will be carried out by the crime scene of the MUP and the

16    Jablanica military police in cooperation with other professionals."

17             Is that paragraph, based on your knowledge of what was happening

18    on the 29th of September, 1993, correct or incorrect?

19        A.   The on-site investigation and activities relating to the

20    exhumation were never carried out.  This is not true, definitely.

21        Q.   Did your police station have the ability or the expertise in

22    September 1993 to perform exhumations or do pathology investigations?

23             MR. MORRISSEY:  Well, Your Honours, perhaps that question ought

24    to be divided in two questions.

25             MR. RE:  Why?

Page 31

 1             MR. MORRISSEY: I submit that the --

 2             JUDGE LIU:  Well -- well, maybe the answer is the same.

 3             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes, it could be so.  But there's two different

 4    propositions in the question, so that's why I raise the objection.

 5             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Witness, you may answer that question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what our -- the means that

 7    are at our disposal.  I know that very well.  In Jablanica at the time, I

 8    believe that we did not have the means to conduct a proper investigation

 9    of this case.  We didn't have experts who could perform such an

10    investigation, and we didn't have the equipment that was required.

11        Q.   Did you have the ability to take fingerprints?

12        A.   Yes, we did have a kit for simple investigations, on-scene

13    investigations, and we could take fingerprints, but any kind of expert

14    testing was something that we were not able to do.  Even identification

15    based on fingerprints was something that we could not do.  The kit that we

16    had was mostly used for break-ins, theft, or some other minor crimes.

17        Q.   What about the ability to interview witnesses?  Could you do

18    that?

19        A.   Why not?  At that point in time, when we had live witnesses or

20    eyewitnesses, we did interview them.  As far as eyewitnesses from the

21    units, we were not in a position to do anything in relation to that.

22             I would just like to repeat here what we said in the beginning,

23    and that was that this was not in the jurisdiction of the Jablanica Public

24    Security Station.  It was not in its territorial jurisdiction.

25        Q.   In your professional opinion as a -- as a police officer of many

Page 32

 1    years standing, could this case have been solved if properly investigated

 2    at the time?

 3             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, that could never be a justified

 4    question to ask, and I object to it.

 5             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Mr. Re, it's not a proper question to put to

 6    this witness.

 7             MR. RE:  Could the witness please be shown -- I've just got to

 8    show him two photographs.  It might take a few minutes to do so, and

 9    I'll -- I'll be finished then.

10             JUDGE LIU:  In less than ten minutes?

11             MR. RE:  Less than ...?

12             JUDGE LIU:  Ten minutes.

13             MR. RE:  Oh, yes.

14             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We could continue until you finish this

15    witness.

16             MR. RE:  We'll do.

17             Could the witness please be shown photograph P3.

18        Q.   Now, do you -- do you recognise that, Mr. Salihamidzic, as a

19    photograph of the village of Grabovica?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You told us you came in from Jablanica.  I just want you to draw

22    an arrow where you came from.  If you could do it on the right side of the

23    photograph.

24        A.   We were here and --

25        Q.   Just put an arrowhead on the -- on the end of that.

Page 33

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   You said there was a checkpoint.  Now, you've drawn a -- a line.

 3    Is that the checkpoint you're referring to?

 4        A.   Yes.  Yes.  The line indicates where the checkpoint was, and then

 5    in the greenery here you can see the top of the roof of the old railway

 6    station building where Ivan Pranjic and his wife, Stoja, lived and where

 7    Adnan Solakovic's command was at the time.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I just want you to put some numbers on this.  Where the

 9    checkpoint is, could you put below the checkpoint in the greenery a --

10    a "1", underneath where the checkpoint was.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Could you perhaps put a -- a line across the bottom of the "1",

13    just to make it a little bit clearer.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   And then conjoin it.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Okay.  And above the arrow pointing to the house, can you please

18    put a "2".

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, you said there was another checkpoint which you could

21    see in the distance about 100 metres away.  Can you please just draw a

22    line where that checkpoint is and maybe put an arrow towards it and a "3".

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   The line is indicating the checkpoint; is that correct?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 34

 1        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 2             MR. RE:  May that be received into evidence, please.

 3             JUDGE LIU:  Any objections?

 4             MR. MORRISSEY:  No, there no objection, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  It's admitted into the evidence.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P278.

 7             MR. RE:  Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P9.

 8        Q.   Now, what's that a photograph of, if you can see it there?

 9             MR. RE:  The witness doesn't yet have P9.

10                            [The registrar and usher confer]

11        A.   That's it.

12        Q.   What's that a photograph of, Mr. Salihamidzic?

13        A.   The photograph shows where actually Crno Vrelo is, which I

14    mentioned earlier during my testimony.

15        Q.   And you said you went looking for a body.  Does the photo show

16    the area where you were looking for the body?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you put a mark on it with a -- an arrow, just like you did

19    before, where you went to, looking for the body.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Can you put an arrowhead at the end of where you went to, please.

22    Just to make it completely clear, just an arrowhead at the end of the

23    line.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Thank you.  And does that show the -- the road on which Celo

Page 35

 1    drove when you were looking for the body, or drove past and stopped?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Which way -- I'm sorry?

 4        A.   That's upstream from where the checkpoint was.  The checkpoint

 5    was downstream.  When you go upstream, you return towards Jablanica,

 6    towards the bridge that joins the left and right bank, and you then

 7    continue to Jablanica.

 8        Q.   All right.  So --

 9        A.   So this would be the direction.

10        Q.   That's the direction of Jablanica.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... just put a "J" on it.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  And in which direction was Celo travelling?  Towards

15    Jablanica or towards Grabovica?

16        A.   Towards Jablanica.

17             MR. RE:  May that be received into evidence as well.

18             MR. MORRISSEY:  There's no objection.

19             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  It's admitted into the evidence.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Prosecution Exhibit P279.

21             MR. RE:  That completes my examination-in-chief.

22             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

23             We might have a short break, and we'll resume at five minutes

24    past 11.00.

25                            --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

Page 36

 1                            --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 2             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

 3             And, Mr. Re used about 100 minutes for his direct examination.  I

 4    hope you could conduct your cross-examination more or less in the same

 5    time frame.

 6             MR. MORRISSEY:  As the Court pleases.

 7                            Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Salihamidzic.

 9        A.   Good day.

10        Q.   I think we -- we'll go straight to the -- the incidents.

11             When you attended at -- at Grabovica on the 9th of September, can

12    you just explain what vehicle you were in.

13        A.   We went there in an official vehicle that belonged to our police

14    station.  I think it was a Volkswagen.

15        Q.   And can you tell the Tribunal, was it a marked vehicle identified

16    with police markings?

17        A.   Yes, it was.

18        Q.   I understand.  And when you got to the checkpoint, whereabouts

19    did you park that vehicle?  On the river side of the road or on the uphill

20    side of the road?

21        A.   At the place where the checkpoint is located, there is a sort of

22    enlargement, an enlarged area.  We parked to the right.

23        Q.   I understand.  I take it that you took no steps at that point to

24    conceal the fact that you were police attending at Grabovica.  Is that

25    correct?

Page 37

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   And it was only once you -- well, I withdraw that.  I'll come to

 3    that question in a minute.

 4             All right.  Now, you've indicated that you held discussions there

 5    with -- with Mr. Solakovic and the two Pranjics.  Did you also have the

 6    opportunity to speak to Zulfo, the refugee?

 7        A.   Yes.  In fact, I spoke to Mr. Adnan Solakovic and the refugee

 8    called Zulfo the most, and I only briefly saw Ivan Pranjic and Stoja.  And

 9    on that occasion, I don't think it was possible to speak to them, because

10    they were very frightened.

11        Q.   Yes.  I think you -- yes, I think you indicated that you were

12    able to take a statement from them the following day, when they calmed

13    down a bit.  But at the time you saw them in Grabovica, they were

14    terrified; is that right?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   Now, when you turned around to leave the village, you didn't take

17    those two with you because you were concerned that you might endanger

18    yourselves and them by doing that; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, as you left the village, you indicated that you stopped at

21    the iron bridge and had a look down on the river-bank to see if you could

22    see a body.  And what I wanted to ask you was:  Apart from the body that

23    you searched for, did you notice any blood or human remains of any sort on

24    the iron bridge at the time of day that you were there?

25        A.   At the bridge by which we stopped -- well, it was an iron bridge,

Page 38

 1    and you are probably referring to the bridge where there were allegedly

 2    traces of blood, and that's not the same bridge.  That bridge crosses the

 3    Neretva; whereas, there's this other one, and on that bridge that crosses

 4    the Neretva, there weren't any traces.

 5        Q.   I see.  I'll just have to clarify that, because we've had

 6    evidence from other witnesses on this topic.  My questions at the moment,

 7    first of all, concern the iron bridge, near to which you stopped and --

 8    and performed a search for a body.  On that particular iron bridge, is it

 9    accurate that you saw no blood or human remains?  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I understand.  But you have indicated that there's another bridge

12    that may be of interest in this regard.  And I want to ask you this

13    question:  Did you personally notice any blood on this other bridge?

14        A.   We didn't stop on that bridge and from the car we didn't see any

15    blood.

16        Q.   You heard some news about blood on that bridge; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   When was it that you heard that news?  Was it this day, the 9th

19    of September, or was it the following day, the 10th of September, or was

20    it later on again?

21        A.   No.  The information that concerned those traces was information

22    that we heard on the following day.  When I spoke to Stoja, she told me

23    that the refugees who had gone to get bread that morning noticed blood on

24    the bridge but there were no bodies there.

25        Q.   I understand.  And can you just explain where that bridge is that

Page 39

 1    we're talking about now where -- on which the refugees had reported seeing

 2    blood.  Is it a bridge -- taking as your reference point the -- the road

 3    that goes off to the right bank, departing from the main road.  So I'm

 4    taking as the reference point the junction of the -- the right bank road

 5    with the main M17 highway.  Okay?

 6             Now, where is the bridge in relation to that junction?  Is it

 7    back towards Jablanica, or is it further on down towards Mostar?

 8        A.   No, the bridge is upstream from the junction where the M17 road

 9    is.  It's about 200 metres in the direction of the power plant dam.  When

10    you come down from the main road, then the road goes back towards the dam.

11    You cross the bridge, and then you continue downstream towards the -- the

12    ramp we have mentioned.  From the M17 road, you go upstream to the bridge

13    that crosses the Neretva River.

14        Q.   Yes.  I understand.  So it's  -- from the road junction we're

15    talking about, it's in the Jablanica direction, rather than the Mostar

16    direction; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

18        Q.   Now, this bridge that we're now talking about is not the Aleksin

19    Han bridge but a separate bridge; is that correct?

20        A.   No, that's not the Aleksin Han bridge.  From Aleksin Han to this

21    bridge, the distance is about almost 5 kilometres.

22        Q.   Yes, I understand.  And as far as the jurisdiction of the

23    Jablanica police station goes, in peacetime and in normal circumstances

24    that jurisdiction stopped at the Aleksin Han bridge; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 40

 1        Q.   And as far as you know, there was no change made to that

 2    jurisdiction, even after the war started.  Is that also correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   So in a -- in a formal sense, the civilian police centre that was

 5    supposed to be responsible for Grabovica and the villages south of that,

 6    including Dreznica, was the public security centre at Mostar; is that

 7    correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In fact, there was a police -- or there was a -- sorry, a state

10    security official named Sead Brankovic who was at that time from the

11    Mostar office, even though he was based at -- at your Jablanica police

12    station; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  Very well.  Now, persisting with the -- with what happened

15    on the 9th.  You've already answered many of the questions that I had to

16    the learned Prosecutor, so I'm going to move fairly swiftly through this

17    part of the -- the day.

18             On your way -- after you'd -- after you'd been down to look at

19    the -- at the river, you saw a vehicle, and Mr. Kurt then described a

20    conversation that he had.  Can I just ask you:  When you saw that vehicle,

21    was it stopped or was it moving?

22        A.   I saw that the vehicle was leaving.  When I came from down below,

23    I could see that the vehicle was crossing the iron bridge and it was

24    heading in the direction of Jablanica.

25        Q.   And were you able to tell, given the view you had, whether there

Page 41

 1    was one or more than one person in that vehicle?

 2        A.   I couldn't even see who was in the vehicle, nor could I see how

 3    many people there were in it.

 4        Q.   And, in fact -- well, I understand that.  You -- you were told

 5    certain things by Mr. Kurt, and then you and he got in the car and drove

 6    back to Jablanica; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, on the way back to Jablanica, did you pass by the checkpoint

 9    or a -- a checkpoint, a long-standing checkpoint, actually, at the Aleksin

10    Han bridge?

11        A.   Yes, at the Aleksin Han bridge, at the border between the

12    municipality of Jablanica and Mostar, there was a permanent checkpoint

13    manned by policemen from the Jablanica police station.

14        Q.   Was that checkpoint manned in cooperation with the army, or was

15    it wholly and solely a police checkpoint?

16        A.   At the time, this checkpoint was manned by the police alone.

17        Q.   Very well.  Now, at some stage in that journey, did you and

18    Mr. Kurt pass by three relatively old people walking on foot in the

19    direction of Jablanica?

20        A.   On the road from Grabovica to Jablanica, there are two short

21    tunnels.  Between the two tunnels, we met two women and a man.  One of the

22    women raised her hand.  In fact, she stopped the vehicle I was in.  I

23    stopped and the woman then told me that they were inhabitants from the

24    left bank of Grabovica.  She said they were Croats and they were taking a

25    man away who had survived a serious heart attack a month ago.  And given

Page 42

 1    his condition, the temperature, they doubted he would reach Jablanica

 2    alive, and they asked me to drive him to Jablanica, which is what I did.

 3        Q.   I understand.  And did you get -- did you get the names of those

 4    three individuals at the time or not?

 5        A.   No, I didn't know them.  And when they got into the car, they

 6    told me who they were, that they were the relatives of the wife of one of

 7    my friends, Ljubas Stipe, someone I had known from before, his wife.  They

 8    called her Mica.  I don't know if that's her name or nickname.  But they

 9    told me that they were relatives of theirs.  And I took them to Jablanica

10    to his house -- to the flat in which Ljubas Stipe lives, but he worked as

11    an electrical technician in the hydroelectric power plant.

12        Q.   I understand.  And once -- I asked you whether you got their

13    names.  Do you -- did you in subsequent times learn the names of these

14    people?

15        A.   I really didn't ask about their names.  It wasn't necessary.

16        Q.   No, that's okay.  All right.  So that your first thing -- the

17    first thing you did when you got back to Jablanica was to take -- take

18    those civilians to their relative's house.

19             When you went back to the police station, did you have Mr. Kurt

20    with you at that time, or -- or did you drop him off somewhere else?

21        A.   No, he left before, and I went to the station on my own and

22    briefed Mr. Zebic.

23        Q.   I understand.  Can you just explain where you took Mr. Kurt to

24    before you -- before you went back to the police station.

25        A.   As far as I can remember, I think he got out at the

Page 43

 1    administrative building of the Granit facility, which is where part of the

 2    command of the 44th Brigade was located at the time.

 3        Q.   Could I just ask you, although I'm getting the narrative at the

 4    moment, I'll just pause there.  Did you know a 44th Brigade security

 5    officer, SVB officer, named Zajko Sihirlic?

 6        A.   Yes.  I knew him.  I had known him in peacetime.  He also worked

 7    in the Jablanica power plant, and he still works there.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Just in -- in terms of the building where you dropped off

 9    Mr. Kurt.  Was that also the building where Mr. Sihirlic worked at that

10    time?

11        A.   I couldn't answer that question.  I'm not certain.

12        Q.   Very well.  Very well.  And after that, you -- you made a -- you

13    went to the police station and gave a briefing to your senior -- to your

14    chief, Emin Zebic.

15             After that time, did you make contact with Nehru Manjusak, with a

16    view to rescuing the -- the two elderly people that you'd seen in the old

17    railway station at Grabovica?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Very well.  Were you able to do that by telephone, given the

20    telephone situation in Jablanica at the time, or did you have to use some

21    other form of communication?

22        A.   No, I went there personally.  I went to the house in which Olga

23    Krstic lives together with her son-in-law.

24        Q.   I understand and can you -- you don't have to be precise about

25    this, but just to give an estimate:  Approximately how long were you away

Page 44

 1    from the police station undertaking that task?

 2        A.   I don't think that I was away for more than half an hour.

 3        Q.   I understand and after that, you formed the opinion that before

 4    any other steps were taken, it was best to give Mr. Manjusak and, indeed,

 5    Zuka some time to accomplish the task of rescuing these two persons; is

 6    that correct?

 7        A.   I told Nehru Manjusak that he should do that as soon as possible,

 8    and I think that he listened to my advice and that he left quite soon.

 9        Q.   Yes.  And I just wanted to clarify what your position was about

10    the steps that you were going to take or might -- might take after that

11    time.  Did you form the opinion that it was best to allow him a short

12    period of time at least to get to Grabovica and get out again before

13    anything else happened?

14        A.   Well, Mr. Adnan Solakovic had warned me.  He said that he

15    couldn't guarantee for the lives of those two elderly Croats who were in

16    that house and I believed that this should be done as a matter of priority

17    and that is why I proceeded in this way.

18        Q.   Yes.  Well, I -- I understand that completely.  Well, my question

19    is, then:  Did you become aware that Mr. Manjusak and Zuka had

20    successfully completed that mission?

21        A.   I didn't know about that that evening.  On the following day, in

22    the morning, I went to see whether Stoja and Ivan had been taken out.  And

23    when I saw that that had been done, I was happy.  And then the

24    circumstances were more normal to have a discussion about this affair.

25        Q.   Very well.  I understand that.

Page 45

 1             Now, after you had made that arrangement, did you go back to

 2    the -- to the police station and speak once again to Mr. Zebic?

 3        A.   I returned to the police station, and afterwards Mr. Emin Zebic

 4    summoned me.  I was in my office.  He called me because at the time Zuka

 5    and Edib Saric had come to see him.  He asked me to come to see him, to

 6    see what they were discussing, and to exchange our opinions on what had

 7    happened.  And I was present when Zuka said that there had been a review.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Now, I just want to be clear about -- about when

 9    this particular meeting took place in the offices of -- of Mr. Zebic.

10    You've indicated that you -- I just want to make sure I'm right.  So you

11    correct me if this order of events is wrong.  Okay?

12             Firstly, you came back from Grabovica and you took the -- the

13    three travellers to their relative's house; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Next you dropped off Mr. Kurt where he had to go, at the 44th

16    Brigade.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Next you went back to see Mr. Zebic at the police station.

19        A.   On the 9th.

20        Q.   Yes, we're on the 9th.  Definitely we're still on the 9th.

21        A.   That's the 9th.

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   The next day, yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  Let me just stop there for a moment.  I don't want to go

25    over into the 10th yet.  I want to keep going with the 9th now if that's

Page 46

 1    okay.  So on the 9th, you went and visited Mr. Nehru Manjusak, who was the

 2    man who was going to go and rescue Ivan and Stoja Pranjic; is that

 3    correct?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And --

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... you told Emin Zebic that

 8    that's what you were going to do.

 9        A.   Yes.  Yes.

10        Q.   I understand that.  And then you've indicated that you were away

11    from the police station for no more than about half an hour.  So after

12    that half hour was finished, did you then go back to the police station?

13    And this is still on the evening of the 9th at this stage.

14        A.   I probably did.  I was at the police station practically 24 hours

15    a day.  At that time, I spent very little time away from the police

16    station.

17        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Well, I understand that.  And look, may I just say:

18    If I ask you about a detail that you don't remember, you're perfectly

19    entitled to say that to me.  But I have to ask you the questions first to

20    find out.

21             Okay.  After you arrived back at the police station from Nehru

22    Manjusak's house, do you recall at that time whether or not Emin Zebic

23    made some contact with the War Presidency?

24        A.   I don't remember that.  I don't know.

25        Q.   I should just ask you this:  Was -- was Emin Zebic obliged to

Page 47

 1    tell you whenever he made a contact with the War Presidency, of which he

 2    was an ex officio member?

 3        A.   No, he didn't have this obligation.  I am his subordinate, and I

 4    have to inform my superior.  But the information did not have to

 5    necessarily flow from the other direction.

 6        Q.   I understand.  So that's -- that's the -- that's the chain of

 7    command issue.  Do you now not recall whether or not he said anything to

 8    you about this topic on the evening of the 9th, or do you have a

 9    recollection of him raising that?

10        A.   I don't remember anything.  I don't remember that.

11        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall a visit being paid to the police station by

12    the minister of the interior, Bakir Alispahic, at that time?

13        A.   I wasn't present.  If yes, then I didn't attend that

14    conversation.

15        Q.   That's okay.  My question to you right now is:  On the evening of

16    the 9th, that is, the evening -- the very same evening of the day that you

17    went to Grabovica and spoke to Solakovic, were you told that Mr. Alispahic

18    was coming?

19        A.   No, nobody informed me about that.

20        Q.   Did you see --

21        A.   Or rather, I don't know about that case.

22        Q.   No, that's okay.  I just have to ask you what you saw and what

23    you heard.  I'm not going to ask you to make any guesses,

24    Mr. Salihamidzic.

25             Well, did you see a vehicle arrive bringing Mr. Alispahic to the

Page 48

 1    police station?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Did you see Bakir Alispahic in the police station at any time?

 4    On that evening, I mean.

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes.  No, I didn't see him.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall whether anyone of the other staff who

 7    were present at the police station that evening mentioned to you the

 8    presence of Bakir Alispahic, the minister of the interior of the Bosnian

 9    government?

10        A.   I don't remember that.

11        Q.   And where is your office located in respect of the office of your

12    superior, Emin Zebic, within the confines of that building?

13        A.   When you go up the stairs and then you go straight after that,

14    there is another staircase to the right, and in that part is where

15    Mr. Zebic's office is.  So I really didn't have to know whether he was

16    there or not.

17        Q.   I see.  And a person going to Mr. Zebic's office, did they have

18    to pass by your office in the normal course of events?

19        A.   No.  No, he didn't -- or they didn't.  My office was in a

20    different part of the building in relation to where Mr. Zebic's office

21    was.

22        Q.   Okay.  I understand.

23             Could you just explain:  When -- if you wanted to make a call on

24    the telephone line to a military unit in town, could you just dial a

25    number from your office, or did you have to arrange it through a

Page 49

 1    communications officer at the police station?

 2        A.   Civilian telephones were functioning at the time, and it was just

 3    possible to use regular numbers and regular telephones.  The PTT was

 4    functioning normally in Jablanica at the time.

 5        Q.   In the event that you needed to ring, for example, a -- a

 6    military security person at the 44th Brigade, would it have been your

 7    practice just to pick up the telephone and dial the number?

 8        A.   To tell you the truth, I had very little contacts with the 44th

 9    Brigade.  The contacts with the 44th Brigade went mainly through

10    Mr. Zebic.

11        Q.   I understand.

12        A.   If I can explain that.  We divided our duties in such a way that

13    I dealt with the organisational matters within the police station, while

14    Mr. Zebic was in charge of contacts with the outside.

15        Q.   I understand.  Was there at the police station a -- apart from

16    the normal telephone -- the normal civilian telephone system, was there

17    another telephone system in existence that the police would use for

18    particular calls, or did you just always use the normal telephone system?

19        A.   We used the normal public telephone system.

20        Q.   Did that involve any intermediary from your station placing the

21    call to the receiver of the call, or was it -- or was the situation this:

22    That the caller would simply dial the number and go through in the normal

23    way to the receiver of the call?

24        A.   There was a telephone in Mr. Zebic's office with which you could

25    dial the outside lines directly.  All the other offices were linked to the

Page 50

 1    duty officer in the station, and he would be the one to dial outside

 2    calls.

 3        Q.   But when it came to Mr. Zebic, he could make the calls himself;

 4    correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Very well.  And do you recall now the name of the duty officer

 7    who handled other calls from the other telephones in the institution?  At

 8    least, the duty officer who was on that night, if you can remember.

 9        A.   No, I don't remember that.

10        Q.   Very well.  Okay.  And later that night, did anyone tell you that

11    Bakir Alispahic had been in the -- in the building?

12        A.   I didn't know about it that night.  I didn't find out that Bakir

13    Alispahic had been there, no.

14        Q.   Yes.  Were you told on some later occasion that Bakir Alispahic

15    had visited, or not?

16        A.   I don't remember that, but at some point I was probably told.

17    Emin Zebic probably told me that Alispahic was there, but I really don't

18    remember that right now.

19        Q.   Yes, I understand.  So your position is it's possible that you

20    were told this, but you yourself do not recall being told this; is that

21    correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Okay.  I just want to ask you a couple of other quick questions

24    on this basis.  You -- you told an investigator from the ICTY, a man

25    called Nikolai Mikhailov, the following information.  I just want to check

Page 51

 1    whether -- whether it's the case or not.

 2             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, this is the statement dated the

 3    20th of the 2nd, 2000.  The interviewer on this occasion was

 4    Mr. Nikolai Mikhailov.  This is a document provided to us by the

 5    Prosecutor.

 6        Q.   I'm just going to read you a passage now and I just want to

 7    confirm with you whether the information is -- is accurate to your

 8    knowledge.

 9             You said this -- and which this is at page 5, the third-last

10    paragraph, Your Honours:  "On the 11th of September, I prepared

11    information which was sent to the Ministry of the Interior in Mostar by

12    way of Sejo Brankovic."  I'm going to put some more information to you,

13    but I just want to check with you:  Is that accurate?  Is that what you

14    did?

15        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I put the report together on the 11th, and I gave it

16    to the chief, Mr. Zebic.

17        Q.   Yes.  And you told the truth about that to this investigator,

18    Nikolai Mikhailov, and you signed a statement to that effect; is that

19    correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  I'll go on to the next sentence:  "Emin Zebic told me that

22    he had informed Jusuf Jasarevic, military security chief in Sarajevo, by

23    facsimile."

24             Now, is that accurate?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 52

 1        Q.   That's what you told the investigator and you signed the

 2    statement as true because it is true; correct?

 3        A.   I really don't know about this right now.  I'm not sure.  I gave

 4    the statement, I think, in 2000.  That's already seven years after the

 5    events.  I remember the following:  During a conversation with Mr. Zebic,

 6    when we were discussing it, he informed me that everybody who should have

 7    received the report had received it, and he meant both those from the

 8    military and the civilian structures.  Perhaps later we spoke about it and

 9    he mentioned that Jusuf Jasarevic had also received a report, but ...

10        Q.   Well, I'm just wanting to check right now whether what you said

11    to Mr. Mikhailov was accurate.  And the sentence that I read to you

12    is:  "Emin Zebic told me that he had informed Jusuf Jasarevic, military

13    security chief in Sarajevo, by facsimile."

14             Now, is that the fact?  Is that what Emin Zebic did tell you?

15        A.   I don't know how he informed me, but I think I think he asked me

16    whether it was possible to inform Mr. Jasarevic by fax or something like

17    that.  I cannot really confirm this statement.  He did say that he was

18    informed, but I don't know in which manner.  I'm not sure about that any

19    more.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, I just want to be clear.  I don't want to mislead

21    you here, so I'll just clarify that.  Is your position this:  Emin Zebic

22    told you that he had informed Jusuf Jasarevic but you can't recall whether

23    that was done by fax or by some other means?  Is that accurate?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 53

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'll go on now with this statement.  And once again,

 3    you're entitled to -- to make the comment that you -- that you have to

 4    make, but I'll ask you some questions about it.

 5             You then said to the investigator:  "I have with me a copy of my

 6    report, and I can provide the investigator with a copy of the report."

 7    And I just want -- I want to ask you this:  Did you tell the investigator

 8    that you -- that you had a copy of that report, and did you in fact give

 9    the investigator a copy of that report?

10        A.   Yes, this is an official note that we saw here earlier.  What I

11    want to add also is that the official note that copy, you can see that it

12    was given to Sejo Brankovic on the 12th of September.

13        Q.   Yes.  And to your -- just again, we're jumping forward, but to

14    your knowledge, Sejo Brankovic in turn reported to his superiors at the

15    Mostar Public Security Station; is that correct?

16        A.   I think that we saw that report.  Nobody informed me about it,

17    but I've seen that document somewhere.

18        Q.   Yes.  That's okay.  Anyway, the last sentence I wanted to -- to

19    take you to from this statement was this one, and it's the final sentence

20    in paragraph 3:  "Emin said that he had already informed Sefer Halilovic."

21    Now, is that the fact?  Is that what Emin told you?

22        A.   I don't know, to be exact.  I'm not sure about that particular

23    statement.

24        Q.   Sorry.  Just excuse me one second.

25                            [Defence counsel confer]

Page 54

 1             MR. MORRISSEY:

 2        Q.   Okay.  Thanks.  Do you agree that you said that to Mr. Mikhailov

 3    in the statement here:  "Emin said that he had already informed Sefer

 4    Halilovic"?

 5        A.   If that's written, then I probably did say it.

 6        Q.   I'm not going to hold you to that, in light of developments in

 7    the case.  I just want to ask you:  Do you have any recollection of

 8    telling that to this particular investigator, as I'm interested in your

 9    words, not his, frankly.  So do you recall telling that to the

10    investigator or not?

11        A.   I remember saying it.  I signed it.  I did have a translation of

12    it.

13        Q.   Okay.  Since you remember saying it, "Emin said that he had

14    already informed Sefer Halilovic," did you say that because it's true?

15        A.   I don't remember all the particulars.  I remember the following,

16    and I said that before.  Information was sent to all those that it should

17    have been sent to.  I don't know whether it was sent to Sefer Halilovic.

18    I'm not sure about that.

19        Q.   Okay.  Well, look, thank you for clarifying that.  Those are the

20    questions on that topic.

21             All right.  Now, pardon me, we did jump forward then, but we

22    were -- I want to go back now to the evening of the 9th, and I'd ask you

23    some questions about Mr. Alispahic, and you've indicated you didn't know

24    anything about it.  But before any of that happened, there was some

25    evacuation of citizens from the left bank -- from the left side of

Page 55

 1    Grabovica that was arranged.  I wanted to ask you about that.  Did you

 2    have any part in arranging the evacuation of left-bank Croatian civilians

 3    in the evening or late in the afternoon, early in the evening of the 9th

 4    of September?  Did you play any part in that?

 5        A.   No, I didn't play any part in that.  My part of it were the --

 6    was the driving-back of those three people.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   And I mentioned that before.

 9        Q.   Yes, you did mention that.  I agree.  We've heard some evidence

10    in this court from particular witnesses about what occurred on that

11    occasion.  I just want to ask whether you had operative information about

12    these matters.

13             First of all, were you aware that soldiers and, indeed, people

14    from the War Presidency assisted in driving elderly Croatian civilians out

15    of the left bank of Grabovica late in the afternoon and into the evening

16    of the 9th?  I understand you didn't do it yourself, but were you aware

17    that that was going on?

18        A.   No, I don't know anything about that.

19        Q.   Okay.  Well, if that's the case, I won't pester you with

20    questions about it.

21             You were aware though that the following day Zulfikar Alispago

22    came along and indicated some numbers of people that had been evacuated;

23    is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Very well.  All right.  Thank you.  Well, I'm now going to come

Page 56

 1    to that -- that day, and I must say to you I'm grateful to you for going

 2    through this in detail, as -- as we are, bearing in mind His Honour's


 4             On the following day, you asked questions of a number of -- well,

 5    I want to ask you about this.  You went and visited the two Pranjics and

 6    asked some questions of them; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   They provided you with a list of persons who, in their opinion,

 9    were living in the village on the right bank in September of 1993; is that

10    correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In fact, that information chiefly came from Stoja; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   I just want to press you for some detail about that.  You may

15    remember; you may not.  But let me just ask the questions and we'll see.

16             When asking about those people who were living in Grabovica on

17    the right bank at the relevant time, did you ask Stoja how long it was

18    since she had personally sighted each of these individuals or not?

19        A.   No, I didn't ask Stoja about that.  What I wanted was for Stoja

20    and me to make a list of the inhabitants grouped by families.  Stoja

21    couldn't really see anything because she didn't really budge from the

22    house.

23        Q.   No.  And in respect of the individuals who were on that list

24    therefor ^, you had no information as to how recently those individuals

25    had been seen in the village, apart, of course, from the ones that you'd

Page 57

 1    heard of as being killed; is that correct?

 2        A.   The list that was made, the list with 30 persons on it, those

 3    were the people who lived there before the soldiers came to the left bank.

 4        Q.   Now, which soldiers are you talking about that came to the left

 5    bank?  Do you mean Cedo's Wolves?

 6        A.   The right bank.

 7        Q.   Oh.

 8        A.   No, no, I am thinking of the soldiers who came to the right bank

 9    of the Neretva.  These are units -- soldiers of the -- Adnan Solakovic's

10    unit, and then there was another unit, the unit of Ramiz Delalic, Celo.

11        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Well, I think my question has been a bit -- a bit

12    general there, so I'm going to try to put it a bit more precisely.

13             When you were given this information about the -- the civilians

14    who lived in the village prior to the arrival of those soldiers, you were

15    not told how recently those persons had actually been seen by Stoja before

16    the time of those troops' arrival.  In other words, had she seen them one

17    day before?  Had she seen them four days before?  Had she seen them a week

18    before?  You just didn't have any information on that score.  Is that

19    correct or not?

20        A.   I'm speaking about the people who are the original inhabitants of

21    that part of Grabovica.

22        Q.   Yes.  Very well.  I'm sorry, this does seem to be tiresome.  I

23    apologise for it.  Taking, for example, on that list the name Brekalo.

24    She didn't tell you when was the last time she saw any of the Brekalo

25    family; is that correct?

Page 58

 1        A.   No, she didn't.

 2        Q.   Yes.  What she told you is, "This family lived in Grabovica at

 3    the time."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Okay.  Thank you.  We got there.

 6             Very well.  On the 10th of -- we're now on to the 10th.  On the

 7    10th of September, you have indicated that you had certain about --

 8    conversations and meetings with potential witnesses in the case.  I want

 9    to ask you about operative information that you may have received about

10    steps taken by other people at the time, and in particular I'm going to

11    ask you about the SVB.

12             Did you become aware that Mr. Sahic and Mr. Dzelmo went to the

13    left bank to try to speak to the Muslim refugees who were still there?

14        A.   Excuse me, but could you please repeat the last names again.

15        Q.   Yes.  I will, and you'll have to forgive the pronunciation.

16    Mr. Nusret Sahic and Mr. Dzenaid Dzelmo, both people we understand to be

17    associated with the -- the military police and military security in

18    Jablanica.  Did you become aware that -- I know you didn't go with them,

19    but did you become aware that they went to the left bank of Grabovica and

20    tried to talk to the Muslim refugees who were present there?

21        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

22        Q.   Just to be clear about this, they didn't have any obligation to

23    report to you, of course, did they?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   We've heard some evidence from Mr. Zebic on this topic already.

Page 59

 1    Was Mr. Zebic obliged to share what he knew about that with you, or not?

 2        A.   No, he went obliged.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Well -- yes, well, okay.  I understand that.  I just have

 4    one final question on that topic for you, and it may jog your memory.  Do

 5    you recall whether military police investigators spoke to or tried to

 6    speak to a particular refugee with the name Muharem, who was said to be

 7    resident on the left bank of the Neretva River?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   No, okay.

10        A.   That's the first time I've heard about this.

11        Q.   Okay.  On the 10th of September, you saw Namik Dzankovic; is that

12    correct?

13        A.   Sejo Brankovic, in fact, introduced me to him.

14        Q.   And it was on that occasion that you met Namik Dzankovic; is that

15    right?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   I understand.  Okay.

18        A.   I didn't even know his last name.  He told me that his name was

19    Namik.  I didn't know his last name at the time.

20        Q.   Okay.  I understand.  Anyway, just to confirm this, though, that

21    it was on the 10th of January -- not January.  Sorry.  That it was on the

22    10th of September that you met him for the first time in the company of

23    Sejo Brankovic; is that right?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Okay.  We've heard some evidence from Mr. Zebic already about

Page 60

 1    visits by Dzankovic to the -- to the police station.  Do you recall

 2    meeting Mr. Dzankovic yourself during any of those visits, or not?  And

 3    these are visits subsequent to the first time you met him.

 4        A.   I can't remember any subsequent meetings now.  I think that we

 5    would meet each other, but we didn't really have discussions of any kind.

 6    I think he would see Sejo Brankovic the most.

 7        Q.   That was my --

 8        A.   Who had an office.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry.  Now, I cut you off.  That was going to be my next

10    question.

11             To your knowledge, Namik Dzankovic, when he came to the police

12    station, would chiefly associate with Sejo Brankovic; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  And to your knowledge, Brankovic was associated with the

15    Mostar police station?

16        A.   I knew him from before, and I know that he worked in the Mostar

17    MUP.  But I think that at this time he worked in the state security sector

18    and he was representing an organ in Jablanica --

19        Q.   I understand.  On a report that he wrote, we've seen that he

20    reported to somebody in Mostar - sorry - called Alica Bilic.  I just want

21    to ask:  Do you know who Alica Bilic is, or was at that time?

22        A.   I think Alica Bilic was the chief of the State Security Service

23    in Mostar.

24        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Did Sejo Brankovic have access to a vehicle in

25    the two weeks or so following the killings at Grabovica?

Page 61

 1        A.   I don't know.  I know that they requested that the police station

 2    assist them, as far as having a vehicle at their disposal was concerned.

 3    But as to whether he had a vehicle of his own, I don't know.

 4        Q.   That's okay.  But your recollection is that the police station

 5    did provide a vehicle to Brankovic and Dzankovic in the -- in the

 6    fortnight or so after the killings; is that correct?

 7        A.   I can't remember how long that took, as to whether they had it at

 8    their disposal at all times or not, I don't know.  I know we had some

 9    vehicles which had no police markings.  They were, in fact, civilian

10    vehicles, and those are the vehicles that they probably used.

11        Q.   I understand.  I'm just going to get to that meeting at the flat

12    of Zuka in a minute, but before that, I just have one question about

13    this -- the rumour that was passed to you by Zuka and I think by -- I just

14    can't recall if you said Brankovic or not but -- in relation to the rape

15    that was said to have taken place on that day.  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18        Q.   Now, moving to the incident at the flat --

19             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Re.

20             MR. RE:  Just in relation to the -- the last question and answer,

21    perhaps that's something that could be redacted from the transcript and

22    not broadcast.

23             JUDGE LIU:  Why?

24             MR. RE:  Personal details of an alleged rape victim.

25             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.  We'll redact the name.

Page 62

 1             You may proceed.

 2             MR. MORRISSEY:  As the Court pleases.

 3             Very well.  Now, Your Honours, I'm going to ask some questions

 4    about that -- that meeting at the -- at the flat, so perhaps we could move

 5    into the private session briefly.

 6             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go into the private session, please.

 7                            [Private session]

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 63











11    Page 63 redacted. Private session.















Page 64











11    Page 64 redacted. Private session.















Page 65











11    Page 65 redacted. Private session.















Page 66

 1  (redacted)

 2                            [Open session]

 3             MR. MORRISSEY:

 4        Q.   Very well.  After that time, you personally had no involvement in

 5    investigating the killings at Grabovica; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you were not shown any of the correspondence that passed

 8    between members of the military security at that time; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, not until I arrived there -- not until I came here.  I never

10    saw such correspondence.

11        Q.   Yes.  Well, in that case, I won't ask you about it.

12             And I take it that given the large number of refugees and all of

13    the social problems that there were in Jablanica at that time, you had

14    plenty of other work to do in your job as deputy of the police station at

15    Jablanica.  Is that correct?

16                            [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

17        A.   Well, I don't know.  We weren't responsible for social cases.  We

18    were more concerned with public law and order.  There were other services

19    responsible for social cases.

20        Q.   That's okay.  My question was quite badly phrased, actually, so

21    I'll put it again.

22             Around late August and early September was a very busy time for

23    you working at that police station, quite apart from the killings at

24    Grabovica; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  There was quite a lot of work.

Page 67

 1        Q.   And you yourself were working very long hours at that time.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Just excuse me one minute, please.

 4                            [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. MORRISSEY:

 6        Q.   Yes.  Sorry.  I'm just reminded of one other matter.

 7             MR. MORRISSEY:  I've nearly finished now, Your Honour.  I'm not

 8    sure whether I've made it within the 100 minutes.

 9        Q.   But you gave evidence about a person called Mr. Turkic.  Do you

10    recall that he was one of the people you spoke to?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I just wanted to ask you whether you spoke to or -- or you tried

13    to speak to a person called Osman Kovacevic in the course of that part of

14    the investigation.

15        A.   No, I don't know who that person is.  This is the first time I've

16    heard this name.

17        Q.   That's okay.

18             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes.  Thank you very much for your patience.

19    Those are the questions, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

21             Well, maybe we could take a break right now, and we'll resume at

22    quarter to 1.00.

23                            --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

24                            --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

25             JUDGE LIU:  Well, any redirect, Mr. Re?

Page 68

 1             MR. RE:  Yes, there is a -- there are a few short questions.

 2    Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE LIU:  Yes.

 4             MR. RE:  Could the court officer please show the witness Exhibit

 5    P67, which is a photograph.

 6                            Re-examined by Mr. Re:

 7        Q.   The reason for this will become very apparent, Mr. Salihamidzic,

 8    when you see it.

 9             You were asked a number of questions about an iron bridge into

10    Grabovica.  Is that the iron bridge in question?

11        A.   Yes, that's the bridge in question.

12             MR. RE:  That be the removed.  Thank you.

13        Q.   My learned colleague Mr. Morrissey asked you about your -- your

14    list -- the list of people who had been living in Grabovica that Stoja

15    Pranjic had given you, and he asked you at page 57 about information as to

16    whether or not she had seen -- seen those persons before, or a number of

17    questions; in other words, had she seen them one day before?  Had she seen

18    them four days before?  Had she seen them a week before?  You didn't have

19    any information on that score.  "Is that correct or not?"  And you

20    answered, "I'm speaking about the people who are the original inhabitants

21    of that part of Grabovica."

22             He then asked, "Very well.  I'm sorry.  This does seem to be

23    tiresome.  I apologise for it.  Take, for example, the name of that list

24    Brekalo.  She didn't tell you when was the last time she saw any of the

25    Brekalo family; is that correct?"

Page 69

 1             To which you answered, "No, she didn't."

 2             Next question: "Well, what she told you is this family lived in

 3    Grabovica at the time."

 4             Answer: "Yes."

 5             Were you aware yourself whether or not the Brekalo family lived

 6    in Grabovica at the time, independently of anything that Stoja Pranjic

 7    told you?

 8        A.   Mr. Josip Brekalo lived in Jablanica before the war.  He was the

 9    chief of the waitering service in the Jablanica Hotel.  But when the

10    fighting broke out in the first half of 1993, he went to Grabovica, and

11    that's where he lived.

12        Q.   What about Luca Brekalo, the other member of the Brekalo family?

13        A.   Luca Brekalo came from Konjic to take care of her husband's sick

14    father, Martin Maric.

15        Q.   Have you ever seen any of those people since September 1993?

16        A.   No, I haven't seen Luca or Josip Brekalo.

17             MR. RE:  That completes my re-examination.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

19                            [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, Judge El Mahdi, please.

21             JUDGE EL MAHDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                            Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to clarify a

24    few matters firstly.  I'd like to ask you about your visit to Mr. Zuka's

25    flat, which was on the 9th in the evening.  My first question is as

Page 70

 1    follows:  Who was present?

 2        A.   At that meeting, in addition to Zulfikar Alispago, I was present,

 3    Namik Dzankovic was there, Sejo Brankovic, and Edib Saric were there.

 4             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And could you tell

 5    us the reason for this meeting?

 6        A.   The reason for the meeting was the information provided by Sejo

 7    Brankovic.  He said that he had found out there were excesses occurring in

 8    Grabovica again and there was the alleged rape of some girl.  This was on

 9    the left bank of the Neretva.

10             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.  So is it Zuka who took the

11    initiative and wanted to organise this meeting?  Was he in some sense

12    responsible for the area, the person in charge of the area?

13        A.   Sejo Brankovic told me that Zuka was calling us to go there for

14    that reason, and in fact there was an agreement between Zuka and Sejo

15    Brankovic when I went there.  It was Sejo Brankovic who called me there.

16             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it was a friendly meeting,

17    then.  Or was it a meeting of an official kind?  Would you describe the

18    meeting as "friendly," rather than "official"?

19        A.   Well, I don't know in what sense it would have been an official

20    meeting.  I think it was more to see what was going on and to see if we

21    could agree on certain measures.  But there was nothing particularly

22    official.  It's not as if someone had ordered us to attend that meeting.

23             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, in your opinion,

24    were you asked to attend the meeting in a personal capacity or in an

25    official capacity?  That is to say, were you invited to the meeting as a

Page 71

 1    police member, as the police representative?

 2        A.   Well, I really don't know.  Sejo Brankovic asked me to go there,

 3    and I did.

 4             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And did you have the impression

 5    that Celo had been invited to the meeting, or did he just appear

 6    unexpectedly?  Did you have the impression that Zuka had asked him to

 7    come?

 8        A.   I didn't have that impression.  I think he turned up by chance.

 9             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And my last question:  Could you

10    tell us whether Zuka had the duty of taking care of logistical support for

11    the troops that were to stay in Grabovica.

12        A.   I don't know anything about that.

13             JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE LIU:  Any questions out of Judge's question?

16             Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

17             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes, there is.

18             Your Honour, I'm -- it's just one matter that arose.

19             I'm sorry, would you just excuse me while this transcript is

20    fixed.  I just want to get the correct quote.

21                            Further cross-examination by Mr. Morrissey:

22        Q.   At line -- at page 69, line 15, His Honour Judge El Mahdi asked

23    you a question concerning the meeting at Zuka's, and he -- he put to you,

24    I think it's been translated as -- that "This meeting was on the 9th of

25    September in the evening."  Now, to your understanding, that meeting took

Page 72

 1    place actually, which I think was your evidence, on the evening of the

 2    10th of September; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes, on the 10th.

 4        Q.   Yes, I understand.

 5             Would you just excuse me for one moment.

 6             And indeed, it's -- it's included in your official note that at

 7    around 2030 hours -- this is at page 3 on the English translation,

 8    Your Honours.  It's included in your official note, that on 2030 hours on

 9    the 10th of September, 1993 you were informed by Sead Brankovic -- Sead

10    Brankovic of the Mostar SDB that strange things were happening and you

11    went on to explain how that meeting took place.  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Yes.

14             MR. MORRISSEY:  That's the only matter, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.

16             At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

17             MR. RE:  Not from the Prosecution side, no.

18             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.

19             Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

20    to give your evidence.  Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and we

21    wish you a pleasant journey back home.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                            [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE LIU:  Well, we still have some time left.  Maybe it's the

25    opportunity for us to discuss about the motions filed by the Prosecution

Page 73

 1    concerning with the 89(F) witnesses.

 2             I have received the filings from the Prosecution and I would like

 3    to know whether there's any response from the Defence team.

 4             MR. MORRISSEY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             There's a short response in respect to two of the witnesses,

 6    and -- and a slightly longer one in respect of another.

 7             The witnesses Zelenika and Stojanovic -- well, perhaps I should

 8    say this:  I should start by saying this, Your Honours:  Given the way

 9    that the Prosecution have put the case there, it really appears that the

10    witnesses shouldn't be called at all, though they just seem to be

11    extraneous in the Prosecution's case, quite frankly.  So my initial

12    position would be that they shouldn't be witnesses at all, any -- all

13    three of them.  And that's simply based on the -- on matters of relevance,

14    quite frankly, and remoteness.

15             It's the Prosecution's own case that they're -- these statements

16    are cumulative; and I'm quoting now from paragraph 7:  "These statements

17    are short, succinct, and in essence cumulative of evidence already heard

18    and to be heard in the case."  And if that's right, well, there's just no

19    need for that evidence to trouble the Court at all.  If the evidence

20    doesn't matter, it shouldn't be led.

21             JUDGE LIU:  Well, you mean three of them?

22             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes, that's in respect of all three, Your Honour.

23    The other submission I have is in the alternative to that, and I'll deal

24    with the other two separately, so --

25             JUDGE LIU:  Can you tell me the name of the three potential

Page 74

 1    witnesses.

 2             MR. MORRISSEY:  Yes, I can.  But, Your Honour, sorry, does

 3    this -- I just notice that this as got a confidential mark on it.  Do we

 4    have to --

 5             JUDGE LIU:  Yes, we'll go into the private session, please.

 6                            [Private session]

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 75











11    Pages 75-79 redacted. Private session.















Page 80

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5                            [Open session]

 6             JUDGE LIU:  Now we are in the open session.

 7             Are there any other matters that the parties would like to bring

 8    to the attention to this Bench at this stage?

 9             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, I just have one matter that -- I'm

10    not sure whether this Bench can -- can assist us or not.  But it relates

11    to the -- the transcript, and this is a problem that bedevils both the

12    Defence and, I imagine, the Prosecutor in the same way.  I'm told that on

13    the old LiveNote system, it used to be easy to tell where the parties had

14    gone into closed session.  And we are concerned -- my learned friend Mr.

15    Re, I think it was he, and it might also have been Ms. Chana who raised as

16    a possible issue at the end of the case the -- in presenting closing

17    arguments and so on that looking to the transcript one has to be very

18    careful to see what parts are in -- in open session and which parts

19    aren't.  And I just wanted to put on record that -- that the need, perhaps

20    in this Chamber but also probably in other ones as well -- that there be

21    some indication on the LiveNote system that's easy for counsel on both

22    sides to -- to use in order to prepare statements that are -- prepare

23    closing statements and other submissions that -- that don't breach the

24    Rules and don't -- don't inadvertently betray material that shouldn't have

25    been betrayed at -- with the public.

Page 81

 1             One expedient that seemed to me to be a possibility was that

 2    through some technical intervention it might be possible to shade the page

 3    a different shade of colour when it is in -- when it's in the closed

 4    session.  For example, that it could have a particular green tinge or some

 5    other sort of sign that indicated easily for counsel, who are trying to

 6    think about other things, frankly, at the time when they're going through

 7    the material.

 8             Now, it's only a thought now, and I -- I don't ask for a ruling.

 9    From the Defence point of view, we would welcome any initiative from the

10    Prosecutors, from the Court, or from -- from the registry, which would

11    assist in that.  And I think about that because this case is moving along

12    reasonably swiftly.  And although there are some miles still to go, the

13    time has come to start thinking about the end presentation and when and

14    how this case is to be presented.

15             So I raise it for that reason now, Your Honour, and place it on

16    record, effectively, for the Court's assistance and -- and in order to

17    elicit any ideas that can help, frankly.

18             JUDGE LIU:  Well, to my knowledge, according to the present

19    practice, in the transcript we see the "open session" in square brackets,

20    then "private session" or "closed session" also in the square brackets.

21    Don't you think that's enough?

22             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honour, it assists when you're using the

23    transcript in a linear way in preparation.  But in a case like this where

24    there is to be some cross-referencing between witnesses, both by the

25    Prosecutor and the Defence, no doubt, at the end, one simply goes from --

Page 82

 1    from page numbers.

 2             Now, you may have a situation with some witnesses who have spent

 3    a number of pages in the open session and a number of pages not.  In those

 4    situations, if one went at random to page 300 and it didn't have a marking

 5    on it, yes, it's true you can scroll back and look.  And that's what we'll

 6    have to do.  It is a matter that's potentially time consuming.  Well, I've

 7    found it time consuming myself.  It doesn't end justice, I say, but if

 8    anything can be done, it would be welcome.  And I just mention it now.

 9             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you.  Any good ideas or suggestions from the

10    Prosecution?

11             Yes, Mr. Re.

12             MR. RE:  There is one.  I hope it may assist.  I -- I did allude

13    to it last week or earlier this week, and that is if there's a -- a Word

14    version published.  I've been told by our case manager that there is in

15    fact a Word version being prepared by the transcript coordinators.  Now,

16    the Word version, as Your Honours will appreciate, of course, has on the

17    top of every page whether it's in open, private, or closed session.  So

18    it -- and it also has a running transcript.  So it's very easy if you --

19    you look at the Word version to work out from the top of each page whether

20    there is anything on that page which is in open or closed session.

21             Now, the Prosecution -- I mean, bearing where we are now, it

22    would be very difficult for to go back right through the LiveNote and to

23    shade it, because it's very hard to find when you're reading on the screen

24    whether something is continuing in open or closed session.  So my

25    suggestion would be -- my respectful suggestion, if the parties could use

Page 83

 1    the Word version with "open" or "closed" written on the top of each page,

 2    we would certainly know and the Trial Chamber would certainly know whether

 3    something was in open or closed session just by looking at the top of the

 4    page, because it indicates how long it goes, whether it's the next page or

 5    the page afterwards.

 6             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

 7             Well, as I said at the very beginning of this trial, this trial

 8    is the first one in the International Tribunal to practice so-called

 9    e-court system, which is supposed to be a non-paper trial.  Of course

10    there are many shortcomings or inconveniences using the e-court system,

11    but the direction that we should stick to is very important.  So I'm

12    afraid that we could not issue the hard copies of the transcripts at this

13    stage, but Defence's suggestion to using the different colours on those

14    transcripts might be a very good idea.  Certainly I'll refer these

15    suggestions to the technicians for the e-court system.  And frankly

16    speaking, I'm not quite familiar with those computers, the new gadgets

17    myself.

18             So I believe that we have to leave it in the hands of the

19    technicians.

20             Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

21             MR. MORRISSEY:  Your Honours, could I -- I'm grateful for the

22    Prosecutor's suggestions and also I'm grateful for the indication that

23    Your Honour gave.

24             Could I say on behalf of the Defence that notwithstanding raising

25    that matter, we want to express our great appreciation for the e-court

Page 84

 1    system and make it clear that although we raise issues from time to time,

 2    in general terms we consider that we've been helped greatly by it.  It's

 3    made our presentation of the case easier.  We hope it's made it easier for

 4    other parties to -- to deal with as well.  And we are very appreciative

 5    of -- of the support that the -- those involved in presenting the e-court

 6    system have given us.

 7             We, too, make mistakes in using that system, and we have no

 8    difficulty with having those pointed out to us.  Indeed, that has been

 9    done in a constructive and sensible way.

10             So I want to be clear that in raising the matters I raise, it's

11    not a criticism of the e-court system as such.  Quite the contrary.  And

12    we hope to continue using it in the way that we have and we're very happy

13    with it.

14             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much.

15             Yes, Mr. Re.

16             MR. RE:  Just one clarification, Your Honour, from -- my

17    submission earlier.  I wasn't suggesting that there'd be a printout of the

18    Word version.  It's just provided electronically in a folder and when you

19    open it on the page, you can see at the top of each page that it's open or

20    closed session.  So just to clarify any confusion about that.

21             JUDGE LIU:  Thank you very much indeed.

22             Are there any other matters?

23             It seems to me none.  And the hearing for today is adjourned, and

24    we'll meet next Monday in the morning sitting, I believe.

25             The hearing is adjourned.

Page 85

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.21 p.m.,

 2                            to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of

 3                            March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.