1 Wednesday, 23 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
6 Mr. Court Deputy, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Before we hear the next witness, are there any matters that the
11 parties would like to bring to the attention to this Bench? I -- yes,
12 Mr. Morrissey.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour, there is -- sorry, did I
14 interrupt Your Honour then? Were you about to say something else? I just
15 jumped up to my feet.
16 Your Honours, yes, look, there is a couple of matters to raise.
17 Your Honours may have received at about 6.30 last night a list of -- of
18 documents that the Prosecution would seek to use in evidence with this
20 Now, some of those are going to be contentious in the case, and I
21 just thought it would be wise to raise those at an early stage, rather
22 than embarrass the witness in the middle of his evidence in relation to
23 these matters. Sometimes witnesses feel as if it's an attack on them when
24 a document they produced is questioned. And that's not the case at all
25 here. But what I thought was I should raise a couple of preliminary
1 matters and see what is the best way to deal with them, whether -- whether
2 to deal with some of these matters at the start or whether to deal with
3 them in the running.
4 Now, first of all, could I just inquire, does Your Honour have --
5 do Your Honours have in front of you the -- the outline of Prosecution
6 exhibits to be tendered or to be used?
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid not, but I could find it from my
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Okay. Well, could I just -- perhaps
10 I'll -- I can proceed while that's being found, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course, you may proceed.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: The documents are -- that the Prosecution wishes
13 to use in cross-examination here include the following documents: A diary
14 of Sefko Hodzic. Now, that's not in evidence as yet, but it's Prosecution
15 65 ter number 106. That's a diary.
16 The next document that the Prosecutor wants to put into evidence
17 that -- that's relevant to Hodzic himself are some articles that he wrote
18 in a newspaper called Oslobodjenje, and he wrote those articles in 1999.
19 So, Your Honour, could I just indicate, when you look at that list that
20 you -- that you have in front of you, the ones I'm talking about are --
21 the first three documents are all orders, as you'll see, and those
22 documents are all, I take it, documents that the witness has seen at some
23 stage and so therefore he would comment about -- just as long as he's seen
24 them, I'm not going to make any objection about it. Two of them are in
25 evidence in any event already.
1 The diary of Hodzic is the fourth document listed there. Ignore
2 number 5 for the moment, because that's a different category.
3 The sixth one, 65 ter number 126, are articles by Sefko Hodzic on
4 the 20 -- that were written and published in 1999, in January and February
5 of 1999.
6 The next document is a audiotape produced by Sefko Hodzic on the
7 5th of the 10th, 2000, and that is said to be using the Sanction system.
8 And finally, there are some excerpts to be taken from the Hodzic
9 book, which was produced, and that's -- the English translation of that is
10 the opened -- the unsealed envelope, and that's 65 ter number 183.
11 Now, Your Honours, after those Hodzic documents, if you'd go back
12 to MFI281, you'll see that it's going to be sought to tender a part of a
13 book by Sefer Halilovic into evidence here through this witness. And I
14 raise some preliminary objections to that being done yesterday in dealing
15 with the -- I don't know if it was yesterday, but it was in dealing with
16 the previous witness.
17 Now, the issues I want to raise are as follows: Some of them are
18 mere housekeeping; some of them are questions that go to the use of
19 documents in court. The question of whether they are admitted into the
20 evidence, I understand, are quite different, and I'm dealing now with
21 issues as to whether they should be used in court at all at this stage.
22 Could I mention first of all on the second page the transcript --
23 the audio transcript. Now, I take it with respect to that the evidence
24 will be that this is actually a copy of an original that was made at the
25 time. And if it is -- if that's the case and if Mr. Hodzic indicates that
1 that's the case, then, of course, there's no admission to implying in
2 court a contemporaneous document.
3 But I note with some concern the reemergence of the Sanction
4 method, and I just wonder how long is the passage that that's -- that's
5 going to be used via Sanction. If it's just simply to be used playing
6 contemporaneously and having the -- the transcript go along with it, then
7 there's no difficulty with it so long as in -- in the fullness of time
8 that document is in the -- in the e-court system. But as indicated, we've
9 got an e-court system going here, and we were happy to allow the
10 Prosecutors to -- to agree to the Prosecutors using Sanction in limited
11 circumstances with short documents.
12 So that perhaps the learned Prosecutor can -- can clarify what
13 the situation is as regards that matter.
14 Now, to proceed to the -- to the next ones. We have a concern
15 about these newspaper articles, Your Honours, that are proposed to be
16 shown to the witness. I've obviously been provided with these, and I've
17 read them, and I know what's contained in them. And the newspaper
18 articles and the book contain information that's broadly similar. But as
19 to the newspaper articles, Your Honours, the Prosecutors are on record in
20 this case in a filing dated the 30th of August of last year - and this was
21 a Prosecutor's response to the Defence motion for access to personal files
22 and other materials dated 30th of August - on page 2 of that, at footnote
23 number 3, the learned Prosecutor at the time asserted a position that
24 articles in a newspaper cannot be deemed to be credible evidence, and that
25 was the Prosecution's position then, and we are concerned about it.
1 Now, there are some cases where newspaper articles are relevant
2 and helpful to the Court, but here these ones are written many years
3 later; in this case, over six years later -- or sorry, over five years
4 later, at the start of 1999. And I'm concerned about they being produced
5 in evidence and used in evidence. And the reason I'm concerned about it
6 is this, Your Honour: That what we think should happen --
7 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: It's all right. I'm following you. This computer is
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Sorry, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: What -- what my concern is simply this: I just want
13 to preserve the oral character of this trial and -- and the ability of --
14 of Mr. Halilovic to follow and -- and the ability of the Court, frankly,
15 to assess the evidence a proper and orderly way. What we submit is that
16 the witness should give his evidence of what he saw, and to the extent
17 that it's relevant, what he did and who he met, and all of the other
18 things he can say, many of which are highly relevant to this case, as to
19 what happened. If he's having trouble remembering, then we don't have any
20 objection to him refreshing his memory from contemporaneous documents,
21 and, for example, the diary, which we presume is a contemporaneous
22 document, would be perfectly appropriate for him to look at and
23 say, "Well, I can't remember exactly what date it was. May I look at the
24 diary?" Yes, of course. And the Defence would obviously be very happy
25 for that to be done.
1 To allow him to look at newspaper articles in that regard just
2 seems to be a -- a controversial thing to do, bearing in mind that these
3 newspaper articles are all much later. And it exposes me to a situation,
4 frankly, in cross-examining that do I then need to cross-examine a witness
5 in 2005 on something he did halfway between this period and to say, "Look,
6 Witness, has your memory changed?" And he might say, "I was telling the
7 truth the best I could." And then if he's pressed, he'll probably say, "I
8 had a diary to look at," that was a contemporaneous diary. So in that
9 situation, obviously the contemporaneous diary is the one that he should
10 look had.
11 The other reason I'm concerned, frankly, is that witnesses when
12 shown something they've written in the past might completely, honestly,
13 and without any desire to be untruthful adopt what they've said, and they
14 obviously have a natural human proclivity not to want to retreat from
15 that. I just don't want to be in the position of having to cross-examine
16 somebody on something he wrote very much later, long after these I events
17 were finished, and therefore I've got concerns about that newspaper
18 articles. I don't have concern about his evidence on those topics, and
19 I'm not saying that what he talked about there was irrelevant. That's not
20 the objection. It is relevant, and the Prosecutor is entitled to lead the
21 evidence concerning those events. So I just want to be clear that it's an
22 objection about these articles rather than about other things.
23 So that's what I've got the to say about those articles. They're
24 not contemporaneous, and that in the first instance the witness should be
25 given the chance to simply -- to give the evidence that he has about those
1 topics and -- and then perhaps see where we go from there.
2 That's what I have to raise about the newspaper articles.
3 Now, I turn to the book. Again, it may be that the book has more
4 relevance than the newspaper articles because it may be that the witness
5 is -- has used -- has -- has compiled his evidence that he collected from
6 the past, diaries and the like, into the form of that book. Your Honours
7 have proofing notes, I think. The newspaper articles -- the witness has
8 apparently said to the Prosecutors in -- in proofing that the there were
9 some propaganda in these reports. Now, he says the book is devoid of
10 propaganda, so the book is better than the -- the newspaper articles in
11 that regard. I mean, the newspaper reports really do have this, in a
12 sense -- it's difficult for the Defence, frankly. It puts us in a bad
13 position. Do we cross-examine him about propaganda? I don't know. And
14 how does it assist the Tribunal? But -- but then you've got in front of
15 you newspaper articles written very much later.
16 But coming to the book. The question is: In what way is it
17 relevant? And in my submission, the danger of admitting that book or
18 allowing the witness to use it at this instance is that it will replace
19 his evidence. In other words that they'll be -- they'll be putting to
20 evidence books -- newspaper -- I said about newspaper articles. They'll
21 be put into evidence the book and -- and that that will become the
22 evidence rather than the evidence of the witness himself. And once again,
23 what my submission is is that the witness should give his account. He
24 should say from the witness box in the normal way, like everyone else
25 does, what it is that he saw and did. And that only after that, should it
1 become necessary for some other reason, that that -- that be admitted into
3 Now, as I say, the Prosecutor doesn't have to defend against an
4 allegation that the material in there is relevant -- is irrelevant. Most
5 of it is plainly relevant, and the objection is not as to relevance. But
6 it is as to the using of those documents.
7 In making the objection to the book and to the newspaper
8 articles, I also want to mention that those -- both the book and the
9 newspaper articles stand very much in the same position as statements made
10 to investigators. All they really are accounts given by the witness on
11 another occasion.
12 In the first instance the witness should give his evidence here.
13 If I should, for example, impugn the witness and say that "You've just
14 made this up now. You've recently invented this," well, then of course
15 those documents have a relevance and they could be admitted. In another
16 situation, they may be relevant too, if the witness said, "Look, I cannot
17 remember the date. I put it in my book. And when I put it in the book, I
18 had good notes, so could I look at the book?" The Court might say,
19 realistically speaking, "Of course you can." So it may be that those
20 documents would have relevance. But in advance we don't know. We don't
21 know what the witness is going to say. It might well be that he does
22 remember and that he -- because he's obviously a person who has documented
23 these matters and has been very closely involved, his actual memory is
24 what the Court really needs to hear, what the Tribunal really needs to
25 hear. And we don't place any limits on the relevant material that the
1 Prosecution can lead and that's not what I'm objecting for now. It's the
2 replacement of live evidence by -- by documentary evidence, which concerns
3 me. And I say that -- and the final point I wish to make about that is
5 That although this case has moved quickly, the fact is that it
6 does take a number of weeks and memories of individual witnesses may be
7 preserved and obviously experienced Judges do preserve those memories and
8 you will. But at the same time, the documentary record will be important,
9 and at the end of -- when you come to weigh up the testimony of this
10 witness and you have in front of you his book, which is written in an easy
11 to read journalistic style and you also have the transcript, which is
12 peppered by my questions, potentially objections, and various other
13 procedural things that happen, it is a task that the Tribunal doesn't need
14 to have to discipline itself to read one part against the other part and
15 to remember which part to rely on. Now, I'm not suggesting that you --
16 that the Tribunal can't do it. Of course you can. You do it all the
17 time. But you don't need toe do it unless it's necessary, and it's
18 distracting and time consuming and it may not be necessary. So those are
19 the submissions about those documents.
20 Turning on to -- now on to the book of -- from Halilovic. On the
21 face of the materials that we have, there's just no basis for this witness
22 to -- to -- to -- for that document to be tendered through this witness.
23 Perhaps he's read it. Obviously the Prosecutors have read it. I've read
24 it. Various people have read it. And so has this person and so possibly
25 have other witnesses who are going to be called in the case.
1 Now, that doesn't mean that it's -- that that witness is an
2 appropriate person through whom to tender the document. And I've
3 mentioned this before, that you will have noticed already that the
4 Prosecutors have not called an investigator, and they're not -- there is
5 no investigator on their list. Now, the normal course of events, of
6 course, is that an investigator could be called to say, "Well, these
7 are -- this is material that's been gathered through the investigation.
8 We want to tender it through this -- this investigator." If the Defence
9 has a quarrel or a dispute, then the Defence may raise a dispute about
10 particular individual items and then proper proof may be required. But in
11 this case, there is no investigator being called and we can't ask any
12 questions about how the investigation proceeded, because there's no one to
13 ask them of. And the Prosecutor obviously has its reasons for, and
14 they're entitled to make their decisions about who they call and who they
15 don't call. That's Prosecution strategy. But they can't have the benefit
16 of not calling that witness and expect to have evidence just going in when
17 there's no appropriate witness for it to go through. And this really
18 appears, in my submission, to be an attempt to put a document into
19 evidence, a document which this witness has no connection with whatsoever
20 other than that he's read it. And it may be the evidence that he's read
21 it for -- all -- part of it or all of it. But he's just not an
22 appropriate witness to put it through.
23 And therefore, I submit that that shouldn't be done, and I'd
24 submit that before we start, therefore, in summary, the Prosecutor might
25 be called upon to clarify what the situation is with the use of -- of
1 Sanction concerning the audio transcript. That's the first thing.
2 Secondly, the Prosecution may put any arguments that they have to raise
3 concerning my submissions about this article and the book. And finally,
4 the Prosecutor ought to indicate in advance why it is that this witness is
5 an appropriate witness through whom to tender Sefer Halilovic's book or
6 the extract of it which they wish to tender. And those are the matters
7 that I wish to raise at this pre-trial stage.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that I have to give a
9 chance to Ms. Chana to make some reply.
10 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours. Counsel for the Defence
11 has raised many points here, and I will start with the Sanction point.
12 Your Honour, Ringtail cannot show audio. And that's the simple answer to
13 that particular -- we're just going to show two minutes through Sanction
14 because Ringtail apparently cannot -- you cannot have the voice, the audio
15 in -- in Ringtail. We'll be happy to use Ringtail, if in fact Ringtail
16 could actually do it. So that's the reason we're using Sanction, Your
18 Now, secondly, I will deal with the -- the articles and the book
19 that we intend to tender through Mr. Hodzic. Now, these are articles
20 written by Mr. Hodzic himself, Your Honour, and whereupon he produced his
21 book. These articles are written in 1999. It is only when the witness
22 comes to court I will lay a foundation as to what was his memory, what was
23 his sources, what was his journalistic style. But nevertheless,
24 Your Honour, there are numerous precedents in the Tribunal where material
25 produced by journalists has been admitted into evidence.
1 Perhaps I may just refer to one case, one decision of the Appeals
2 Chamber, where -- it's an authority to say that this is permissible.
3 Your Honour, I've taken the liberty of making some copies for
4 Your Honours and for the Defence of the decision of Brdjanin versus [sic]
5 Talic, which is IT-99-36, and this is the Appeals decision on the 11th of
6 December, 1999. Your Honour, we would -- we would argue that this is
7 binding on this Chamber, since this is -- it's an Appeals decision.
8 In that case, Your Honour, the Prosecution is thought to have an
9 article written by a journalist admitted into evidence. The journalist
10 himself was not present in court. The Appeals Chamber in that case
11 recognised that because of public interest in accommodating the work of
12 war correspondents, war correspondents enjoy certain privileges before the
13 Tribunal and that in some cases this privilege may prevent a war
14 correspondent from being subpoenaed to be cross-examined on an article
15 that the journalist has written.
16 However, Your Honour, the Appeals Chamber made it quite clear
17 that even when it is not possible to call the journalist to be
18 cross-examined on the accuracy of the article, it is still possible for
19 the article to be admitted into evidence.
20 The Appeals Chamber ruled that: "In this situation, the article
21 is, however, hearsay and that the inability to cross-examine the
22 journalist may go to the weight that the Trial Chamber would give it but
23 does not mean that the article cannot be admitted as evidence." This,
24 Your Honour, you will find at paragraph 52 of the decision.
25 Your Honour -- Your Honours, in the present case, unlike in the
1 Brdjanin and Talic case, the journalist is before the Trial Chamber. He
2 can be cross-examined by the Defence on the accuracy of the material he
3 has written, notwithstanding when he wrote it. So therefore,
4 Your Honours, there are even stronger reasons for admitting this
5 evidence -- this article and book into evidence.
6 Your Honour, I -- we would argue there are also reasons why more
7 weight should be given to it by the Trial Chamber. In short, therefore,
8 Your Honour, the material written by the witness is admissible as
9 evidence. It is a matter for Your Honours what weight to give it, and
10 this question falls to be addressed by the parties in their final
11 submissions at the end of the trial.
12 Your Honour, the Defence have made no showing whatsoever how
13 their client will be prejudiced by the admission of this material.
14 Mr. Hodzic was the war correspondent. He was on the ground. He was privy
15 to the events. He made notes. Even though he said some of it is
16 propaganda, he will be asked whether the events, the dates, what he
17 witnessed was accurate. And after laying the foundations, Your Honour,
18 there'll be no question that this journalist wrote his articles and his
19 book with the events that he himself witnessed. He can be cross-examined.
20 Your Honour, there are no strict rules of admission of evidence
21 at this Tribunal. It's a matter of relevance, probative value, and the
22 question of weight Your Honours will give any particular evidence.
23 So those would be my submissions in respect of admitting into
24 evidence the articles and the book written by Mr. Hodzic.
25 Your Honours, I intend to merely produce them into evidence. I
1 am very mindful of the fact that there's limited time in calling this
2 evidence. It is not meant to replace his evidence, Your Honour. He will
3 be giving oral evidence. And therefore, it is by no means, as I -- as I
4 indicated, as a replacement of his evidence, but the time will not allow
5 him to give it as full a consideration as producing his articles, where
6 Your Honours can see exactly in all the detail what he witnessed when he
7 was a war correspondent on -- on the ground.
8 Your Honours, the Defence alluded to -- to some motion that the
9 Prosecution had filed and in the footnotes they said the articles cannot
10 be deemed -- articles and newspaper cannot be deemed to be credible
11 evidence. Your Honour, I would distinguish this case. These are not
12 articles written by any other person. These are articles written by the
13 journalist himself, and he is present in this court, and he can be asked
14 any questions that the Defence deems appropriate to put to him.
15 Your Honour, in respect of the book "Cunning Strategy" written by
16 Mr. Sefer Halilovic, Defence counsel does not argue it is irrelevant,
17 which is quite appropriate, because it is extremely relevant. They say
18 there's no connection between Mr. Halilovic's book and Mr. Hodzic. With
19 due respect, Your Honour, I would disagree. There is a deep connection
20 between the two. Halilovic, and the particular chapter that we wish to
21 introduce into evidence -- Mr. Hodzic is deeply concerned with the events
22 because he was there and he witnessed them. There is the connection, Your
23 Honour, that Mr. Hodzic was with Mr. Halilovic during the course of
24 Operation Neretva. He shadowed him most of the time, and he is also privy
25 to the same events, which he witnessed to which Mr. Halilovic talks about.
1 He is an extremely appropriate witness to have -- to talk about and assist
2 the Chamber as to whether he finds the events as detailed by Mr. Halilovic
3 in his book are to the best of his own knowledge and recollection accurate
4 or not.
5 Your Honour, this is a public publication. It's available to all
6 in sundry. It's been published. It's open sources. And I do not again
7 see the prejudice and there's been no showing of prejudice by the Defence
8 as to why this would in any way inconvenience them, since it is open
10 One moment, Your Honour.
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, the diary. Mr. Hodzic wrote his diary,
13 and in respect of the diary, Your Honour, we're only going to be using
14 some 10 lines of it, which is at the end of the diary. This is
15 Mr. Hodzic's diary. And all my submissions in respect to the article and
16 the books would apply in equal force when it comes to the diary.
17 Your Honour, in this respect, these are my submissions. I hope I
18 have not left any particular point out. Just other than to add that
19 diaries are always admissible in -- in these proceedings, and I think the
20 Defence counsel has conceded as much.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 Any short, very concise reply?
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Always concise as possible, Your Honour.
24 As to the question of the -- of the letters -- sorry, of the
25 articles and the book, my learned friend really did reveal the true reason
1 for doing this. She said there was pressure of time for this witness.
2 And she said that she doesn't have the time to lead the evidence fully.
3 And if you go back to page 13, line 19, you'll see.
4 And what this is is exactly what I alluded to. It's an attempt
5 toe replace the live testimony with this. It's an attempt to introduce a
6 quasi 89(F) situation or a quasi-92 bis situation, whereby the written
7 material goes in and then the Defence has the chance to cross-examine.
8 That really is what it is. And my learned friend let the cat out of the
9 bag and revealed that by referring to time, because that really is what
10 the Prosecution is seeking to do, to replace the oral testimony with this
12 Now, it may be at a later stage that this material has got
13 relevance or assistance to give, but we don't want a trial where this
14 material is handed up in lieu of the evidence. We want a trial where he
15 gives his evidence.
16 Your Honours, you will refer to the Brdjanin decision. That is
17 absolutely irrelevant. That was a case concerning the privilege of
18 journalists and whether they should be compelled to be called to be
19 cross-examined about a -- about an article which was otherwise relevant
20 and admissible. The real issue there was should the journalist be called.
21 It had nothing to do with this situation. In this case, far from it
22 assisting my friend's case, the real issue is that Mr. Hodzic is here.
23 Let him say what he remembers. Let him say what happened. Should it be
24 the case that he -- he has difficulties remembering, you might decide,
25 depending on what he says, that he's allowed to refresh his memory from a
1 particular document. But to put in the book as a replacement for his
2 evidence is just not permissible, frankly, so I -- that's the submission I
3 make in response to that.
4 But I refer you to what my learned friend said at page 13 on line
5 19 and following, and you'll see what it is that she said in justification
6 for her argument. It's quite plainly an attempt to put this evidence in
7 as evidence, and the Prosecutor never did say to you it's the live
8 evidence that counts and this material has some other function or some
9 supplementary function. The Prosecutor is trying to use it as evidence,
10 and they shouldn't be permitted to. We should hear from Mr. Hodzic. You
11 might decide something different later, but give him a chance. He's a
12 witness. He's come to The Hague. That's what we want to hear.
13 I'll turn to the question of -- of the admissibility of the book
14 of Halilovic. The Prosecutor's argument came down to this: That
15 Mr. Hodzic was there at the same time. That's what the argument was.
16 Mr. Hodzic has a very clear interest in this book, the Prosecutor said,
17 because he was there. Your Honours, every single witness called from the
18 crime scene situation may be the -- subject to the same comment. Witness
19 D apparently was there. Would it have been appropriate to put this book
20 in through Witness D? That cannot be a basis and that's the only basis
21 that's being advanced here. So in my submission, that must fail.
22 As to the diary issue, frankly, my friend is quite right about
23 that and really the clarification there, so long has it's a
24 contemporaneous diary, of course, that would be exactly the sort of
25 document that the witness should be allowed to refer to fresh his memory,
1 and quite frankly I don't know why they're limiting it down to -- to the
2 two minutes, because it's -- it's relevant.
3 But those are what I have to say in reply.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Well, we spent about 35 minutes
5 to debate on this issue. But as a matter of fact, even before the start
6 of this case, this Bench has issued a ruling concerning with the
7 guidelines of -- of the admission of the evidence. I hope both parties
8 could find the time to discuss all -- or carefully read whatever is said
9 in that decision.
10 During the whole proceedings, as the Defence counsel rightly
11 pointed out, that the best-evidence rule should be the guidance of this
12 trial, that is, if we have a live witness giving testimony in the
13 proceedings, so I believe that his testimony will be the best evidence
14 because those evidence was tested by the cross-examination of the other
15 party. This is the rule that we have to abide by.
16 As for the other matters, I believe that the submissions by the
17 Defence is confused with two different categories of matters: One is the
18 using of this document in the proceedings; the other is the admission of
19 this document into the evidence. As the Bench pointed before, that so
20 long as that document is relevant, it is important for the party
21 introducing this document to prove its case, and so long as there are some
22 probative value and those documents are usable in the proceedings.
23 As for how much weight the Bench should put to those documents
24 and whether think should be admitted into the evidence, I believe those
25 matters should be discussed after we heard that witness's testimony,
1 because the Defence counsel has the full right to challenge the admission
2 of that document by cross-examination or by putting some questions to the
3 witness. So in this way, I believe that at this stage the tape, the book,
4 the articles, as well as the diary, are usable through this witness in the
6 As for whether those documents are admissable or not, we'll leave
7 it to the end of the proceedings.
8 It is so decided.
9 So could we have the witness, please.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
13 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
14 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
18 Ms. Chana.
19 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours.
20 WITNESS: SEFKO HODZIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examined by Ms. Chana:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hodzic.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Would you please give your name and date of birth for the record,
2 A. Sefko Hodzic. I was born on the 28th of November, 1945.
3 Q. What's your profession, please?
4 A. I'm a journalist, a journalist in Oslobodjenje.
5 Q. And how long have you been a journalist at the Oslobodjenje?
6 A. I've been working for Oslobodjenje for the past 15 years, and the
7 other 20 years I've been working for other media, newspapers and so on.
8 Q. So all in all, you've been a journalist for how many years,
9 Mr. Hodzic?
10 A. About 35 or 36 years. Perhaps it would have been better if it
11 was a little less, but there you go.
12 Q. Can you please tell this Chamber your academic background.
13 A. I am a teacher of literature, and I completed the Faculty of
14 Philosophy in Sarajevo.
15 Q. And what year would this be?
16 A. I graduated in 1972.
17 Q. Did you also work for Radio Sarajevo?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I worked there in a professional capacity in 1974 --
20 Q. Have you won any awards for your journalism?
21 A. I received a prize by the Association of the Journalists of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I also received the Oslobodjenje annual award which
23 we have.
24 Q. And what year was this, Mr. Hodzic?
25 A. This Oslobodjenje award I received in 1996. And as for the other
1 one, I really don't know. It was a long time ago.
2 Q. Were you in 1994 and 1995 nominated for the best reporter of the
4 A. In 1992, I was declared the war correspondent of the year, and
5 this was an award I shared with a colleague.
6 In 1994 and 1995, I was in the finals - we could put it like
7 that - for that award.
8 Q. And were you a war correspondent in 1993?
9 A. Yes, 1993 and all the war years.
10 Q. And at that time, you were working for the Oslobodjenje?
11 A. Yes, I was a journalist employed in Oslobodjenje.
12 Q. Now, how many other reporters were reporting during the war, from
13 the field?
14 A. In the first months of 1992, there were many. And then the
15 numbers kept dwindling, so that only a few of us remained.
16 Q. And why did these numbers dwindle, Mr. Hodzic?
17 A. I know that my colleagues from Oslobodjenje - I wasn't the only
18 war correspondent from Oslobodjenje - some of them fled abroad; some of
19 them were afraid; they couldn't bring themselves to go to the front any
20 more, and so on.
21 Q. And you persevered.
22 A. Yes, until the end.
23 Q. Could you tell us how you would send your reports to Sarajevo.
24 What was the methodology of reporting?
25 A. Exclusively -- actually, not exclusively. There were some
1 phones -- well, in Sarajevo, I went to the offices. I either wrote from
2 home or went to the news room. But when I was outside of Sarajevo, there
3 were some phone lines somewhere, so I was able to fax in my report. But
4 the most usual way was to use the ham radio operators.
5 Q. And when you were out in the field during Operation Neretva, how
6 would you send your reports back?
7 A. Exclusively through ham radio operators.
8 Q. And which communications centre did you mostly use?
9 A. The communications centre of the 44th Mountain Brigade in
11 On two occasions, from this part, from the power station, I sent
12 it out from there. For some reason this location was referred to as the
14 Q. And who would receive your reports?
15 A. I don't know. There was some sort of schedule there. I think
16 the person who responded had a -- a code name, Zoka. All the ham radio
17 operators knew each other. I don't know where they were located, but they
18 would receive the reports and they would send them on to our centre, which
19 we also had at Oslobodjenje. We had a communications centre. It would be
20 received by the centre, retyped by our typist. Since from 1993, at the
21 request of people from Radio Sarajevo, I was allowed by my
22 editor-in-chief to work for them as well, to work for the radio as well,
23 so at the same time my reports were used by Oslobodjenje and by the radio,
24 the radio of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Radio Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. So your -- your articles would find their way in the newspaper
1 and there would be a radio programme. Would this be every day?
2 A. Yes. Well, you couldn't say that it was every day, but specially
3 in 1992 and 1993. I was very busy. You could say that. You couldn't say
4 it was every day, but it was quite frequent. I would go to the front,
5 most often to Zuc, where the combat operations were going on. I would
6 report in for 1500 hours, 1700 hours. Then I would go to the news room,
7 work until 11.00. I would develop the photographs, and then they would be
8 published the next day in the newspaper.
9 Q. Now, was the date and location always indicated on your reports?
10 A. Only if I forgot something. But my first thing was always to put
11 the date in and then take notes. When I was working for the radio, when I
12 was recording the material into the microphone, then I would usually say I
13 want. Sometimes I would make a mistake. I would skip it. But I would
14 say, "Today is" -- then I would say the date, "I am at such-and-such a
15 location." And then I would speak with the fighters and the commanders.
16 Q. Now, how accurate was the information in respect of dates and
17 places in your reports? How accurate was that?
18 A. Sometimes there were mistakes. I would catch some mistakes,
19 especially during those first years of the war. And I wouldn't know the
20 date or what day it was. That would happen sometimes. It would seem to
21 me that it was one date but then later I would go back and see that it was
22 actually another day. I would correct these mistakes later when I checked
23 when these articles were published in Oslobodjenje. If it was published
24 on the 25th, then it must mean that I had sent it in on the 24th.
25 Q. Now, why is it that you are -- you were clear about dates?
1 A. I was clear about it. I used different ways. But mostly based
2 on my notes from the war. I kept most of them; although, some of the
3 pages are torn.
4 When I went out on a trip, I received travel orders from the news
5 room, and then I would specify exactly how many days I was away, where I
6 was, how long I stayed. The first page of the report would always contain
7 the travel orders for Igman, for the Operation Neretva. I would usually
8 state that. So that's the documentation that I kept, and I still have it.
9 Q. Was it also the case, Mr. Hodzic, that you were given allowances
10 by Oslobodjenje and you had to put in the returns, as it were?
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I don't object to the witness
12 giving evidence, but I do object to there being leading of the witness and
13 putting propositions to him like that. And I want to be clear that I'll
14 object like that throughout if there's leading.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, in this situation, I don't believe that it's
16 quite leading. I believe that the Prosecution has to lead the witness in
17 certain subjects or areas. Otherwise, we'll never be there.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, that's quite true. And the witness
19 is entitled to say what he has to say about the topic and not have the
20 proposition put to him by the Prosecutor.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could put your question in another
23 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Hodzic, was there any particular reason as to why the dates
25 were quite clear to you? Were there anything else, any other
1 administration which made you remember the dates.
2 A. As I said, as far as this operation is concerned and the one at
3 Igman -- actually, for Igman, I had more documents because there was
4 fighting every day, so I took notes every day. But as I said, this
5 report, the one for Igman and Neretva, I put together. It was one report.
6 We would receive 500 German marks a day -- no, no, no, we received 50
7 German marks a day, but only when Oslobodjenje received a donation of this
8 money from other sources. But sometimes I wouldn't receive any advance
9 allowance. For example, when I went to cover the Neretva operation, I
10 didn't receive anything. I would only receive this money when I came
11 back. Sometimes even six months would pass before I would actually be
12 paid these allowances.
13 Q. But you have to put in some paperwork to claim these allowances.
14 A. No, not then or now. You only submit a report. Along with the
15 travel orders, you only have to submit your hotel or accommodation bills.
16 That would be the only thing. I would have to submit a bill for the
17 hotel, and this would be paid on top of the allowance. But there would be
18 no other expenses other than the travel expenses.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Hodzic, you said you would write the articles. And when
20 you wrote the articles, would you please tell us the sources of your
21 information. How would you -- what were the -- the sources of your
22 information as you wrote those articles? What would you rely on?
23 A. Out in the theatre, I would report as an eyewitness. My articles
24 were not any sort of pieces of wisdom. I would speak to the fighters,
25 with the commanders, take photographs, and describe what I saw, what I
1 experienced. So it was conveying my direct experiences in the theatre of
2 war and what happened. That's what I would put in the articles.
3 Q. Did you make notes?
4 A. Yes, I have about 120 or 150 of these different volumes of notes
5 that I made.
6 Q. And then you wrote your book. How many books have you written
7 altogether to date, Mr. Hodzic?
8 A. Before the war, I published some things, but what's relevant for
9 this now is that I published four books about the war.
10 Q. When you wrote your books, where did the information come from?
11 A. It depends on the book. The first one is about the reports
12 straight from the front. I just corrected some minor mistakes, and it was
13 just published like that.
14 The third book is the one that's here now. It's sort of three or
15 four longer, broader pieces. I was a participant, and I also reported
16 about Neretva, and I don't know what else is in there. But this was not
17 based only on my recollections. I was lucky enough that the commanders,
18 General Delic and General Dudakovic allowed me to use archival material,
19 so I was allowed access to the archives and I used that material, and I
20 incorporated that into my writing, and I also spoke to people who directly
21 participated in the events. So it was my testimony, the testimony of
22 those who directly participated, plus archive material that -- that went
23 into the third book.
24 Q. Would you say that this accords with the highest journalistic
25 standards? Would you say that to be accurate?
1 A. Yes, I kept to that during the war as much as I could. Of course
2 there was some mistakes. These were not intentional mistakes. They
3 happened, but always my objective was to tell the truth.
4 Q. But the time you wrote the book, did you correct some of the --
5 the mistakes and the dates in the articles?
6 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'm just not sure the
7 witness has said anything about mistakes and dates of articles at all in
8 this court at this stage.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's a leading question.
10 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I thought the witness had said
11 that other than a few mistakes on the dates, everything was accurate, but
12 I will put it again to -- to the witness, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, he said there was no intentional mistakes.
14 MS. CHANA: Yes.
15 Q. Mr. Hodzic, can you -- can you let -- could you please assist the
16 Chamber by telling them how many mistakes had you made in respect of dates
17 and how many were there, to your knowledge?
18 A. In relation to this topic here, I established that there had been
19 only one mistake relating to the dates, and that's the date when I met
20 with Mr. Sefer Halilovic in Konjic. I don't know where I made the
21 mistake, but in the statement, in the book, and in the long piece I wrote
22 that we met on the 22nd of August, and Mr. Sefer Halilovic gave a pass for
23 my mother for the tunnel on that occasion. When I looked at the archives
24 a while ago, I found out -- I saw that it said the 23rd there, but then I
25 cross-checked my notes from that area, and then when I saw when the
1 consultations were in Zenica, then I saw that it was actually on the 23rd.
2 Q. Was there any other mistake, to your knowledge, on the date,
3 other than the one you've just described?
4 A. I don't remember. Perhaps there were, but I really don't
6 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Hodzic, I'd like you to see your articles
7 and if you would please identify them?
8 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, this is 65 ter number 126. And I will
9 read out the number: 03423148.
10 Q. And these are your articles, Mr. Hodzic, from 15 January to 6
11 February 1999.
12 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, perhaps it would be easier if I just
13 showed Mr. Hodzic all the articles to identify them, because I'm not going
14 to do any more than that.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, before that's done, I raise
17 this issue, that -- bearing in mind Your Honours' ruling, these documents
18 are completely permissible, but the witness should be given the chance to
19 give his evidence first before we come to these -- these documents. He's
20 here. It's a live trial. And -- I have no objection to the witness
21 looking at them. I have no doubt he's seen them many times. But in terms
22 of the evidence that's to be led, whilst you may permit him to look at the
23 articles, he really has to be given the chance to say what -- what he
24 recalls, in my submission.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Are we still talking about the mistakes in
1 those dates?
2 MS. CHANA: No, Your Honour. I'll merely mark them for
3 identification at this stage and then I'll produce them -- it's just
4 that -- I want to now to identify the articles.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may ask some preliminary questions on this
6 article. For instance, what the contents are about, you know.
7 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Would you look at the articles that the usher is showing you,
11 please. What are these articles, Mr. Hodzic?
12 A. Well, it's a series of articles that I wrote for Oslobodjenje as
13 of the 15th of January, 1993 about Neretva 93, and there was a
14 subheading "Witness of the Operation Neretva," 23 installments.
15 Q. Are they all on Operation Neretva, or is there any other matter
16 included on those articles?
17 A. All of them. Well, basically all of them, but then I based it on
18 my memories of other things in relation to that. For example, I wrote
19 about the Igman operation, which was a month earlier, because some of the
20 same persons were cropping up there. So there are some other things
21 there, but there are certain serious errors there, because I was basing
22 this account on my notes, and I went to the radio station and they gave to
23 me some of the cassettes that they had kept, because I hadn't kept them.
24 And there are some mistakes there, especially when I based my account on
25 my memories. There were some errors that had crept in. But most of these
1 errors were actually corrected in the book. There are possible errors
2 here, but there are no mistakes in the book that I can think of because I
3 tried to correct all of those when I was writing the book.
4 Q. And were these the -- the articles that you sent from the field
5 as you were in the field as a war correspondent?
6 A. No. No. I did use the articles because this is something I
7 wrote in January 1999, and then I was using the articles that I wrote in
8 1993 and accounts and the reports for the radio. Some things I couldn't
9 even find any more. And of course I based it all on the way I remembered
10 these things. But not on the basis of any documents. Maybe I did have a
11 couple of documents, but I can't remember. I don't think so. But
12 basically without any archives, any documents.
13 Q. But they were based on the reports you sent from the field; is
14 that correct?
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Just a moment. Your Honours, just -- sorry. I
16 apologise to the witness. When I interrupt it's to make a legal
18 Your Honours, there's two things to say: The first one is that
19 that's a plainly leading question. And secondly, it's a -- really flies
20 in the face of what -- of the answers that the witness had already given.
21 Now, I've got no objection to my learned friend just asking the normal
22 questions about when he filed reports, what he relied upon to -- to -- to
23 build up the articles and then how he corrected those articles when he
24 came to write the book, which I think is what the witness is -- is heading
25 to say. Given Your Honours' rulings, that's not objectionable. But it's
1 just got to be done in a step by step way and not to put things in the
2 witness's mouth, in my submission.
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I agree with you that it is a leading question,
4 but in some situations the leading question is allowed, and in this
5 particular matter, it does not go to the actual conduct of the crime.
6 It's just to establish the source of this article.
7 But anyway, Ms. Chana, maybe you could put your question another
9 MS. CHANA: I'm obliged to Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Hodzic, what were these 1999 articles based upon?
11 A. Well, my articles were based on reports, daily reports that I
12 sent in from Herzegovina for both the radio and Oslobodjenje, and they
13 were also based on my notes, the notes I'd kept. And I think I kept one
14 or two cassettes and some other materials. And on my memory in fact,
15 basically. And I also consulted some other sources, such as Bilajac and
16 Karic and Suljevic and so on.
17 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I would mark it for
18 identification. And that's number 288, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Hodzic, I would like to now show you 65 ter number 183,
20 Your Honour, which is 01062078.
21 MS. CHANA: I believe these will be shown on Ringtail.
22 Q. Mr. Hodzic, this is some excerpts from your book. And I'm sorry,
23 even if I try, I will not be able to pronounce the Bosnian version, but I
24 think it is "The unsealed envelope." Now, they will come up before the
25 screen, Mr. Hodzic, and if you'd just have a look.
1 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, if I may explain. These are certain --
2 from -- from Mr. Hodzic's book. And we have the ERN range and we have
3 just translated only certain portions of Mr. Hodzic's book, and those are
4 the only portions that we wish to tender into evidence. And I would now
5 like the witness to identify it.
6 Q. Can you see what's on the screen, Mr. Hodzic, and would you tell
7 us what is it? Perhaps if you could go page by page. I mean, I think
8 that's where, I think, e-court system false short, Your Honour, that ...
9 A. Yes. There was a heading. It is translated properly, the title
10 of the book. And this is one of the installments, which is "The last
11 supper at ARK."
12 MS. CHANA: Yes, can we just -- Your Honour, I don't know if
13 there's a simpler way of doing this so that the witness can actually see
14 all of the -- the pages so that we can save some time. Otherwise, this
15 will take a very long time for us to go page by page.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, Your Honours. Mr. Halilovic can't see it.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. And I believe that you agree that this document
19 could be furnished to this witness in hard copy?
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I don't have any objection at all
21 to the witness being furnished it. And frankly, I can't see why he's --
22 why it's been chopped up in the way it has. I don't have any objection to
23 the witness just being given his whole book to look at. He wrote it. And
24 we're not going to require that he have each little passage put to him.
25 It's obvious he wrote it, and it's -- he's entitled to give that evidence.
1 My friend can actually lead on that. I just make the point I'm -- I'm
2 struggling to see why these little segments are taken out. But that's the
3 Prosecution's decision. If they want to persist with it, I suppose they
4 can. I don't object to leading on whether those article -- those items
5 were written by him.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
7 MS. CHANA: I'm grateful to the Defence, Your Honours, for that
8 indication. And the reason why only certain parts have been translated,
9 Your Honour, is that it's a translation issue, and we're mindful of
10 Your Honours' ruling at some point where you did not want whole -- whole
11 books tendered into evidence, so we thought we would only translate the
12 relevant portions so as not to burden the Court with too much material,
13 Your Honour. And we have really highlighted only the relevant portions.
14 But we can show the witness his entire book in B/C/S.
15 Q. Mr. Hodzic, I'm going to give you a hard copy of this. And if
16 you followed what I said to Their Honours earlier on, what -- what this is
17 is sections of your book which actually I have -- the Prosecution has
18 translated. Would you look at this book and -- and confirm that it is
19 indeed your book. If you'd look at the -- the hard copy in front of you,
21 A. Well, it's rather obvious. We are talking about a paragraph from
22 my book "Sealed envelope," which -- "The unsealed envelope," - sorry -
23 which refers to this particular operation.
24 Q. And now, could you tell us: When you wrote this book, what did
25 you base the information on?
1 A. Yes, I did say that already. I mean, if you want me to repeat, I
3 Q. Yes. You -- you said they were the articles. I would like now
4 for you to tell us about this book and the sources of your information on
5 the book.
6 A. Yeah, yeah, that's from the book. So that's the book. The book
7 has been complemented by the documents that I had, by the series of
8 articles that I had published and that you have shown me a while ago, and
9 it has been complemented by extra documents pertaining to the Neretva
10 operation that I obtained from the archives. And in the meantime, I've
11 also used some UNPROFOR materials. I looked through the press,
12 Oslobodjenje, from that particular period. And I also talked to some
13 people, Arif Pasalic, et cetera. And so it was all complemented on the
14 basis of the new information on the new documents and I apologise for
15 asking you to repeat the question. I hadn't quite understood what you
16 were getting at in the beginning.
17 Q. That's quite all right, Mr. Hodzic.
18 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, this book, MFI289.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But what is the title of this book?
20 MS. CHANA: Oh, sorry, I thought he'd said it. Would you please
21 tell Their Honours what the title of your book is.
22 A. The title of the book is "The unsealed envelope," and the heading
23 for this paragraph is "The Witness of Operation Neretva," but the title
24 does not come from there but the title is based on another operation,
25 which is called Operation Envelope, and I also wrote that on the basis of
1 archives, et cetera, but it was a kind of mystery novel. And so the
2 operation was called "Envelope" so I established this kind of link, an
3 unsealed envelope, so that's -- that's it basically.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. But the documents received don't have
5 this translated into English.
6 MS. CHANA: Yes, we have translated it into English, Your Honour.
7 It was done just a few days ago. It hasn't been something which has been
8 in the system for some time.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MS. CHANA: But we can always -- we always had it in B/C/S, but
11 we can always provide Your Honours with the -- the -- I think Ram is
12 nodding that ...
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
15 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Hodzic, I would like you, if you would, to cast your
17 mind to 9th June 1993. Could you tell us what you did on that day.
18 A. On the 9th -- or on the 8th of June, the news was broadcast that
19 there had been some changes in the army and the editor-in-chief -- that is
20 to say, that Sefer Halilovic was where he was and the commander-in-chief
21 was Rasim Delic. And the editor-in-chief asked me -- he called me on the
22 phone and he said, "Can you write something about this new commander? Can
23 we have a presentation of this guy?" And I said, "I've never heard of him
24 myself." And so all we published were these bare facts from the
25 Presidency of the government about the latest changes in the government.
1 And then in the morning I was asked by the editor-in-chief to go
2 to the Chief of Staff and to take a photographer with me, because we
3 didn't even have his photo. And we were also going to ask for a statement
4 and a statement to the effect about the distribution of tasks and
5 competencies if Sefer remained where he was and now he's a new commander
6 and we tried to find out what it was all about. And I went early in the
7 morning to Mr. Sefer Halilovic's office, and they were changing the
8 system. It was an official ceremony and there was a General Muslimovic
9 and I asked him to try and find out whether the commander was ready to
10 receive us, whether we could take his photo, and whether he could make a
11 statement. And only Sefer and Delic stayed there and Sefer's people told
12 me that Sefer wanted to resign because he was told by somebody else half
13 an hour earlier that he was going to be replaced, et cetera.
14 And then I was told, "The commander is waiting for you." And I
15 went in and I stayed with Delic. I -- what I had in mind was a photo
16 opportunity and a brief statement. But then we stayed longer and we had a
17 talk. And one of the questions was about the distribution of
18 competencies, and I did ask other questions as well, but one of the
19 questions was about these changes.
20 And he said that it was all well known what the competencies were
21 because he had published this interview in his book. And then I included
22 it in my book. And he said, "We knew what the Chief of Staff was supposed
23 to do but basically the commander has the last word." And then Sefer came
24 along again, and I asked him about the resignation, and he said, "No," and
25 then I asked Delic, "Did he really hand in his resignation?" "No, no,
1 no." And then he used the formal words. I can't remember whether he
2 said, "There are too many Sefers" or "Sefer is one and only." Or
3 something like that. I don't remember.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I believe that you are eager to give
5 your evidence, but whatever you said has to be recorded into the
6 transcript, so please go very slowly so that the interpreter and
7 typewriter could follow you. Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MS. CHANA: I'm obliged, Your Honour. I was going to say exactly
10 the same to the witness.
11 Q. Mr. Hodzic, if you'd please listen to His Honour Judge Liu. Go a
12 little slower. Otherwise, it becomes extremely difficult for the
14 And I would ask the interpreter to please actually themselves
15 indicate that to the witness.
16 So you interviewed Delic and -- and you talked about
17 Mr. Halilovic's general demeanour about it. When was it that Delic was
18 made the -- the Supreme Commander of the army? What date was it? When he
19 was appointed?
20 A. He was appointed -- no, that was published on the 8th. The
21 Presidency made the decision about the appointment of Rasim Delic. He had
22 not been a general at that time. And it was a new job which did not exist
23 before, and Sefer Halilovic stayed in his previous job, which was the
24 Chief of Staff. And we did not talk a great deal about Sefer at all. And
25 I asked him whether it was true that he had handed in his resignation.
1 Q. Why would -- why would Sefer Halilovic want to resign?
2 A. I was told by his people whilst I was waiting for the commander
3 to see me, "He is going to hand in his resignation. This is not fair
4 behaviour." At the eleventh hour they told him that he -- that there was
5 going to be somebody new. And then when he came again himself, when I was
6 with Delic already, I asked him, "Are you going to hand in your
7 resignation?" And he said, "When the time comes, I'll let people know."
8 And then Delic went on to say what I've said before, that he didn't have
9 any information about that. And I think he said something like, "Sefer is
10 one and only and there aren't too many people like Sefer," or something
11 like that.
12 Q. Did you take a photograph of Delic and Sefer together?
13 A. No. There was a photographer there, because I did not have a
14 camera myself. And there was a rather interesting situation there: When
15 Sefer came in to say something and Delic was sitting across the table from
16 me and we were talking and then Sefer was bringing something in to Delic
17 and asking him something, and I thought it would be a nice image, as it
18 were, that --
19 Q. Witness, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to interrupt
20 you. It becomes very difficult to follow you, Mr. Hodzic. If you could
21 really make an effort to slow down.
22 A. I know. You'll have to tell me again, but ...
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. So as I was saying, Sefer was standing and it was a rather
25 symbolic image of this change. So Delic was sitting down. Sefer was
1 standing up behind him. And I asked the photographer, "Take this picture.
2 That's great." And then he was grabbing his camera and Sefer said, "No,"
3 and Delic said nothing. And I thought it would be a shame for such a
4 symbolic image not to be captured on film, but no.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... to be photographed together?
6 A. No, he didn't really refuse. He -- I don't know. I mean --
7 well, I don't know. I mean, there was nothing nasty about it. I -- I
8 mean, he didn't like being photographed in general, so I didn't take it as
9 a formal rejection. Or he didn't like to give statements either. I once
10 talked to his head of cabinet. We see more of the Pope in the press and
11 in the media rather than your guys there and there is a war in Bosnia."
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic. Now I'll take you to 23rd August 1993.
13 Can you tell me who you met on that day, if anybody at all?
14 A. I gave a detailed account of those events in the book. I went
15 down for a five-day period as a reporter from Mostar with a group of
16 people from Mostar. I found out that my birthplace, Razici, had fallen
17 and it is a part of the Konjic area, and I separated from the group. They
18 went on to Mostar and I myself went on to that mountain area because I had
19 heard about refugees. My mother was there. I found my mother and I went
20 back to Konjic after five days.
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. And I think it was the most difficult situation I found myself in
23 during the war. What was I supposed to do? I had to go to Mostar. I
24 couldn't leave my mother. She didn't want to leave me. I went to
25 Sarajevo. I talked to Bilajac. He said nobody other than Sefer and Delic
1 can give you permission to travel through the tunnel with your mother.
2 Civilians are not supposed to go. It's a no-go area. I could go. The
3 army could go. But civilians couldn't go. I was in a very difficult
4 situation. I didn't know what to do. And that's what had happened.
5 At a certain point, on Monday, I set out and I was staying with
6 some relations near Konjic with my mother and we set out in the direction
7 of Konjic and there was a jeep driving by and I saw Zuka at the wheel and
8 Sefer was asleep in the passenger seat. So, well, this a bingo for me, a
9 million dollars. A win at the lottery. I was so pleased to see him. And
10 I went in the area where the 6th Corps was. I thought that that was what
11 they were headed for. And he was there and Karavelic and Zuka and many
12 other people.
13 Q. And what did you say to them?
14 A. I noticed Sefer. He was up there. And he saw me, and we went
15 towards one another and they were all in a good mood and Karavelic came
16 and I said, "Sefer, you are my favourite person on earth right now." And
17 he said, "Why?" And then I told him the story. And he said, "Well, I've
18 got --" and I said, "Well, I've got my mother here. I don't know what to
19 do with her." And he said, "Look, I've got the stamp and everything. I'm
20 going to stamp all the papers for you and I'll sign the document and a
21 pass for your mother so that she can travel," et cetera. And he wrote on
22 a piece of paper, "I'm asking all the heads of units to help this person
24 Q. And then did Sefer give you this -- this pass? What else did he
25 say to you?
1 A. He gave me -- no, I said to him and he said, "What are you --
2 where are you going?" And I told him the whole story. And then I said to
3 him, "Okay. I was on my way to Mostar and Santic, Ulica, and the Bulevar
4 were the symbolic streets as far as the defence of Mostar was concerned
5 and I said I was on my way to Mostar to report about the Santic, Ulica,
6 and the Bulevar. And he said to me, "I am myself -- was on my way to
7 Mostar. I'm going to be in Mostar pretty soon but in a slightly different
8 way. We are preparing to lift the blockade of Mostar," and he said either
9 that Bilajac, Zicro Suljevic, Karic -- either he said they were already
10 there or they were preparing to go down there, and then he said, "I'm
11 going to be going down there as well and I'm going to be leading this
12 operation." And that's when I asked him, "Dear Sefer, let me go with you.
13 Let me send my mother back to Sarajevo and let us go happily -- well,
14 not happily, but unburdened of all my worries," and then he said, "Oh,
15 okay. Yes."
16 And so I came back. But what I had in mind going to Mostar and
17 what I was basically ordered to do by my boss, I couldn't do it because of
18 that unexpected situation involving my mother. I had to go back to
19 Sarajevo. And then we agreed we would set out together, when he would --
20 decided to go to Mostar. And I called him several times. We were in
21 touch basically in order to arrange our trip together.
22 Q. Now, when he said, "We are going to Mostar," what did you
23 understand who this "we" encompassed?
24 A. You mean in Konjic or where?
25 Q. No, no, you just said that Sefer said to you, "We are going to
1 lift the blockade of Mostar." Who is this "we"?
2 A. Us, the Army of the BH, nobody else.
3 Q. All right. Now, I'll take you to 31st August. What happened on
4 that day?
5 A. Well, on that day and the days before, I phoned him every day and
6 he said, "I'll let you know when we can go," and then I called him up
7 again and he said, "Come to my place at 8.00 this evening."
8 Q. And then where did you go?
9 A. That meant that I should pack up. And I packed my suitcase. I
10 was living in a part of town -- I went out into the street waiting for
11 some form of transport because I -- there were not many vehicles. And all
12 of a sudden there was a car, which stopped next to me, and I looked in and
13 Sefer was there with his people, and they were driving by there by chance.
14 Q. And who was with Sefer with -- in this car?
15 A. I don't know. I have no idea. Some people. Some of the escorts
16 and perhaps a woman as well.
17 Q. Was --
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Was --
20 A. No. No. No. He had a chauffeur.
21 Q. So where did you go?
22 A. We went to his -- at the headquarters, and I left my journalist's
23 gear there, and he asked me to wait a little bit longer, and I went out
24 and I went for a walk in town. And quite by chance I met with his friend
25 and colleague from the Patriotic League. He was not a general as yet,
1 Kemo Karisika, and he said that he was going down there as well and he was
2 going to the officers' school in Zenica. And then I went back to his
3 place and I think it was about 9.00 when we set out, I believe.
4 Q. And then you set out? You left Sarajevo, is that right, at 9.00?
5 A. Yes, perhaps even at 10.00. I can't remember. So we -- his and
6 I left his office and went through the tunnel. We never stopped. And
7 we -- there was a jeep waiting for us there. Somebody called Mesar was
8 driving. And we went to the IKM of the 1st Corps in Hrasnica and Kemo
9 came by as well and we had a conversation there, and at one point we drove
10 down to Herzegovina. And when we went to Konjic and Kemo went with his
11 people, his professors and us, and I don't know what we were looking for,
12 perhaps for Slavko Gusic. But we went to the 6th Corps. I can't remember
13 whether we found him or not. And then we -- Karisika went to Zenica and
14 we went to Jablanica.
15 Q. Mr. Hodzic, I'm going to take you through the events step by
16 step, so if you would assist me in doing that. You said there was a chap
17 called Mesar. Where was Mesar from? Who was Mesar?
18 A. Mesar. Mesar. He was the driver. When I used to drive with
19 Mr. Sefer, he would be the driver. I don't know if anybody else drove
20 Mr. Sefer, but whenever I rode with Mr. Sefer, he was the one who drove
21 the jeep. Later I found out this was a person from Sandzak. His name was
22 Elmedin Causevic. All the people from Sandzak could conceal their names.
23 I don't know for what reason. But his nickname was Mesar. I don't know
25 Q. Mr. Hodzic, just before the break, was he a soldier and from what
1 unit was he?
2 A. Mesar was a fighter in Zuka's unit, and a month before that I met
3 him at Igman, when the Serbian forces under the direct command of Mladic
4 were attacking Igman and Bjelasnica. So I saw him operating a
5 three-barrelled weapon. He was a little bit pale, and that's -- that's
6 how I saw him. And that's when I met him for the first time. We talked a
7 little bit and so on.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic.
9 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, this might be a good time for a break.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume at 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
13 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Chana, please continue.
14 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 Q. Mr. Hodzic, before we continue, I will remind you, please, if you
16 would speak slowly, because the interpreters have to interpret everything
17 you say and everyone has asked me to -- to indicate this to you so that --
18 you have some very valuable information, and we want to be quite sure that
19 Their Honours are not straining to understand you.
20 Now, before the break, Mr. Hodzic, you had just said that you
21 went through the tunnel and you were met by somebody from Zuka's unit.
22 Now, this is -- we are still on the 1st of September. And where did you
23 go on the 1st of September?
24 A. We went to Jablanica. We arrived at about 6.30, perhaps a little
25 bit earlier. Sefer -- we went on to Donja Jablanica, where the base of
1 the Zulfikar unit was, and we stayed there. One of his escorts, by the
2 name of Sefko Halilovic, we stayed there, him and me. We got a room. And
3 when we came out, that's when Sefer told me -- we were coming out of the
4 car. He was coming out, and he said, "Sefko, we're here. You do your job
5 and I will do mine." I didn't understand then what he meant. I only
6 understood it later, because actually he didn't want - and I didn't ask
7 him to - for me to attend any of their military meetings. So I didn't do
9 He returned to Jablanica, and we stayed in Donja Jablanica.
10 Later I found out that he spent the night at Zuka's. I often came to this
11 apartment of Zuka where he was staying.
12 Q. At that time, did you have a conversation with Sefer Halilovic as
13 to what his role in the operation was?
14 A. We mostly talked, and I kind of prompted that kind of
15 conversation about the Patriotic League, which I was preoccupied with for
16 a time and in which he was the number-one person, as well as Kemo Karisik.
17 We also talked about the Owen-Stoltenberg plan. He was also obsessed with
18 that in the same way that I was obsessed with the Patriotic League, about
19 the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina into three republics. That's when
20 the most intense talks were, about the division. At that time, he told me
21 that in Zenica they had agreed that Bosnia would not be divided. This was
22 at the military meeting there. What his differences were on that with
23 President Alija Izetbegovic -- well, that was mostly what we talked about.
24 Q. And his role, Mr. Hodzic, what did he -- how did he see his own
25 role and how did you see it?
1 A. I still didn't know. He for me was still the Chief of Staff, as
2 he had been always. I didn't know what the relationships were. As far as
3 I was concerned, Sefer Halilovic was commander. Sefer Halilovic, who from
4 the start was the embodiment right from when he was appointed commander
5 ever commander. Although he had been a commander for only a month, he
6 still was commander to me, even though he became the Chief of Staff. All
7 the fighters and I thought of him still as commander. Even my deputy
8 editor-in-chief, a woman who had written a poem on page 1 of
9 Oslobodjenje, and the title of the poem was "He komandant," "Hey
10 commander," even though he wasn't a commander any more. For me, I liked
11 him as much as I did before we had a good personal relationship.
12 Q. And how was he perceived in the -- in the area by other army
13 officers and soldiers?
14 A. They were happy to see him there amongst them. The people that
15 we saw there were very happy that he was there. Both the fighters and the
16 people were feeling somewhat abandoned. Sarajevo was a centre, and it was
17 a bit separate. It seemed as if they were even happy to see me and not
18 just Sefer.
19 Q. And when you wrote your reports, how did you refer to
20 Mr. Halilovic?
21 A. In the beginning, I didn't mention him at all. Later I
22 identified him in the following way: He was the commander, regardless of
23 anything; and when he said that he was going to be leading the operation,
24 to me that was as if he were the commander of the operation. I had an
25 image of him as Commander Sefer who was managing or conducting -- heading
1 this operation. So as far as I was concerned, he was a commander. Later
2 when we talked, it turned out that it wasn't quite the same to command or
3 to direct an operation.
4 Q. At the time, in 1993, when you were writing this report that you
5 referred to him as "commander," did -- did Mr. Halilovic ever correct you?
6 A. First of all, I wrote the reports. He didn't know when I was
7 sending them and where I was sending them to. The first time I called
8 him "commander" was in a kind of euphoric moment, on the 19th of
9 September, when we found out that Medvjed had been liberated and when it
10 looked as if the operation will be successful and when all the plans that
11 had been made, it looked as if they would be achieved. When we were at
12 Adnan Solakovic's base in Jablanica and when Zuka informed us that Medvjed
13 had been taken and five times as much territory, we were euphoric. We
14 were a little bit irrational. I spoke to everybody, and I'm sorry I that
15 I didn't keep that raw tape so you could see what the atmosphere was like
16 for yourself. That was the first time when I said -- well, I really
17 said "coordinator," because he said to me, "It's one thing what I called
18 him and it's another thing what he told me." The first time I went there
19 and when I asked him and Karic, "What is your role here," and I took a
20 paper, and you have this paper here in my notebook. I said, "What are
21 you, Sefer?" And I wrote down, "Sefer," and he said, "I am a
22 coordinator," and I wrote down "coordinator of the operation." And you
23 have that.
24 But how shall I put it? It was the first time I heard that a
25 coordinator existed. Fighting was being conducted. So in my opinion, it
1 was ridiculous to call him "coordinator." So in some instances I said
2 that he was controlling, and in some instances I said that he was
3 commanding the operation. I said in that report, "Sefer, who is
4 coordinating," and that wasn't enough, so I said -- well, "and
6 So he was there. I don't remember him saying anything to the
7 contrary. Perhaps other people would remember, but perhaps he thought
8 Well, since all this joyful -- this joyful mood was prevailing, well, he
9 might have thought Well, I'll just let it go.
10 Q. Now, on the 1st of September, Mr. Hodzic, did you go to Igman's
11 Wolves in Grabovica at the hydroelectric plant?
12 A. Yes, we all went: Sefer, Zuka, Bilajac, Karic, the whole crew.
13 Zuka was there, and Nihad, and we all went to that unit, the Igman Wolves.
14 Q. And did you see some detainee there?
15 A. I didn't see any detainees. A little bit earlier, to the left in
16 the prefab huts -- well, before the visit, we went to the huts where the
17 freed inmates, Bosniaks who had been in Croat camps in Herzegovina, were
18 situated, and we spoke to them. Sefer, Karic, we were all together. I
19 took photographs. I spoke to those people. And then from there we went
20 to the Igman Wolves.
21 Q. Did the refugees talk to you and Sefer and the others about the
22 way they had been treated in Croatian camps?
23 A. Yes, they did. Of course. They were telling us all kinds of
24 things. They were exhausted. I took photographs of them, and you can see
25 that, and very soon after I -- I wrote an article or a -- a piece about
2 Q. Now, Mr. Hodzic, I'll take you straight to 3rd September, if I
3 may. Could you tell us on that day what you did.
4 A. It's specific in the book, but please don't hold me to
5 everything. I may not remember everything.
6 On the 3rd of September, I think we, Sefer Halilovic, Zuka, and
7 their escort and myself, I think we went to a -- a sort of resort for rich
8 people from Mostar in some mountain. I don't know what it's called. At
9 the time, I didn't know what kind of an accommodation it was. But anyway,
10 when we got there, Zuka mentioned it -- at the time, I didn't even know
11 any Sarajevo units were coming. Zuka mentioned something about
12 accommodation for some fighters. And in the beginning I thought Zuka
13 wants to billet some of his fighters. We passed through Grabovica, went
14 through that forest. We went up there somewhere. I don't know where we
15 went. And they were looking around. I heard them speaking that it would
16 be possible to billet them here. To me it seemed that that wasn't
17 possible. Everything was damaged. And then we returned and -- and we
18 went to Kostajnica.
19 Q. Now, to be clear about, this what was the exact purpose about
20 you, Zuka, and Halilovic going to, as you said, this -- I don't know
21 exactly what you -- you said you went through Grabovica to this resort.
22 What was the purpose of -- of the three of you setting off on that day?
23 A. At the time, I understood it as if Zuka was looking for
24 accommodation for his fighters. We passed through this forest and we went
25 to this mountain resort which was all destroyed, and that's how I
1 understood it.
2 Well, since I wrote it five years later, in the book I didn't
3 want to say what I thought and then what I found out later, I wrote that
4 this was actually meant to be for the accommodation of the fighters from
6 Q. And you went to Grabovica?
7 A. No, no, we passed through Grabovica, went through the forest,
8 went out of Grabovica. There was a forest. There were some minefields
9 that were marked. We were afraid, whether we can go in or not, but then
10 we still go in, then went further up, and then went to reach this kind of
11 weekend settlement where these little forest homes were. And then we were
12 there for a while, and then we returned.
13 Q. Mr. Hodzic, when you went through Grabovica, what did you see in
14 Grabovica? What -- what was it? What kind of a village was it?
15 A. I could see that there was some elderly women and men there.
16 There were people wearing black or longer folk costume. But anyway, there
17 were some special caps and things. I could just tell by looking at them
18 that they were Croats.
19 Q. And then you said you went to this forest. Did you stop the car
20 at any point?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where was this?
23 A. We stopped the car before we actually entered this holiday camp
24 because minefields were marked, so that's where we went out. And Mesar
25 was standing there thinking, Do we dare go in or not, and then Semir --
1 Sefer said, "Well, we won't know until we do it. If we are fated to die,
2 then so be it." So we went in and then we went up there.
3 Q. And where did you go next and what was this place where you went?
4 A. The place is called Kostajnica. Kostajnica or Neretvica.
5 Kostajnica, Neretvica, Buturovic Polje. This is a broader area. It has
6 different names. But Kostajnica was the actual place, or Neretvica.
7 That's where the command of the 44th Brigade is.
8 Q. Now, before you get to Kostajnica, you -- I'm asking about this
9 holiday chalet - is that what you called it - that you went to? Where was
10 that? Where you thought it was not suitable for accommodation. I think
11 that's what you said.
12 A. We didn't think that. They determined that it was suitable, that
13 it was possible. The roofs were intact. Zuka thought that it would be a
14 good place for their accommodation. The housing was quite adequate. It's
15 a place -- to get to it, you go through the forest, and then you go
16 through the forest again. The road forks off to the left and then again
17 goes through the forest. And then there were these minefields that we
18 passed through.
19 For hunters generally, from hunters from Mostar, this was -- this
20 was where the president -- I mean, the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister
21 of Yugoslavia, Dzemal Bijedic used to come very frequently.
22 Q. What was the place called, Mr. Hodzic?
23 A. It's called Diva Grabovica.
24 Q. Yes. And then after this reconnaissance, where did you go next?
25 A. Without stopping, we returned to the village of Kostajnica, the
1 municipality in Konjic. This is the municipality where I'm from. I was
2 with Sefer.
3 Q. And did you find any people there that you -- that you all met?
4 A. As soon as we got to Kostajnica in the car, as soon as we came
5 out of the car, a whole bunch of people gathered around us, women,
6 children, elderly people. There were also people from the military units,
7 from the local commune. They all gathered around Sefer. They started to
8 complain to him. They started to threaten. There were about 20 elderly
9 Croats in that village, and later on that day I spoke with them and I
10 wrote an article about them, about these elderly Croats that had stayed.
11 Sefer then started to say something to them. I turned my tape
12 recorder on and Sefer said, "No, no, please -- please don't. Don't do it
13 now." Then chaos erupted around him. They started to complain, and
14 everything -- and I did switch my tape recorder on. It wasn't a
15 Dictaphone. It was a radio -- it was a nice tape recorder which I got
16 from the radio station with a nice microphone. You could tape the
17 conversations of our fighters in Zuc and the Serbian fighters. So I -- I
18 turned on this tape recorder.
19 Q. And what did Sefer Halilovic say?
20 A. Since there was some threats in relation to the Croats who stayed
21 there, he said, "No, no, no. But they kept interrupting him. It's very
22 precise in the book. He said, "We're not a revengeful army. No woman
23 should have to cry because of us. We're fighting against Chetniks and
24 Ustashas." This is what he was saying, "And not -- and we will win,"
25 something to that effect. And then some women supported what he was
1 saying, and then he said, "Don't cry. No woman [as interpreted] won a war
2 by attacking women and children." He said something to the effect that no
3 woman or no child should be made to cry. They mustn't be attacked. And I
4 called that "the ethics of Sefer's warfare." That was how I titled that
5 in my book. And I literally retyped -- I transcribed everything from the
6 tape as he was being interrupted and everything, and I still have that and
7 I don't know whether you have that transcript or not.
8 Q. In that respect, did he say anything about the -- the Ustasha and
10 A. "We will route Ustashas and Chetniks and the people should not
11 shed any tears because of us, the people, women, children, they mustn't
12 shed any tears." Practically that's how I understood it. He was making a
13 kind of warning that nothing should be done to those people, these elderly
14 Croats that were there.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic. Now I'll take you to the 4th of
16 September. Where were you on that date, which is the next day?
17 A. In the morning on the 4th of September, we all assembled in front
18 of Safet Cibo's house, the president of the War Presidency of Jablanica,
19 Konjic, and the free part of Prozor. We were outside in front of his
20 house. I don't know who came, in which order. I think Sefer came last.
21 I came before he did. Karic was there, and then when Sefer came, Karic
22 said to him, "Sefer, there is a telegram for you from Arif Pasalic in
23 which -- which says that the Ustashas" - and I understood it that it said
24 that they would be attacking in two or three days, but in the order it's
25 specifically stated - and I found that out later - they would attack the
1 power plants.
2 Sefer said, "Well, we will forestall them." I think that Karic
3 or somebody said that, "The units from Jablanica are arriving." That's
4 the first time I heard from him -- or actually, from Sarajevo --
5 Sarajevo -- and from Zenica -- Zenica, some artillery and so on and so
6 forth. And then they were planning maybe they could attack on Wednesday or
7 Thursday but we will then attack them actually on Wednesday.
8 Q. And was there any talk about the Sarajevo units?
9 A. Yes, although, I didn't know which units these were. They just
10 said that some units were supposed to come from Sarajevo.
11 In the book, I mention it because later I got a document - I put
12 that in later - what the requests were, which groups should come out of
13 Sarajevo. I mentioned that there. What I knew at the time and what I
14 published in the book is a little different, so I didn't want any
15 misunderstandings to happen.
16 Q. All right. I will now show you a document, Mr. Hodzic. And this
17 one is MFI161.
18 It will come on your screen. Can you see it?
19 A. Yes, I see the document.
20 Q. Have you seen this document before?
21 A. I received this document from the archives when I was working on
22 my book and after the publication of the series of articles. At the time,
23 I had no idea that it existed. But I did include it in the book because
24 I -- I got it and so ...
25 Q. And what does this -- what is this and what does it say? In
1 brief, if you can summarise.
2 A. It's for the command, command of the 1st Corps, for the
3 commander. Then after the introduction about the difficult situation in
4 Mostar, "I order, the Chief of Staff." "Deputy commander" is signed at
5 bottom. "The Delta Brigade, parts of the 9th and 10th Mountain Brigade,"
6 and "Solakovic," this is mistake here. "All units over 200 fighters strong
7 with complete equipment and weapons to be prepared and on Friday evening
8 at the latest," and then so on and so forth. "To send to Bradina." So
9 this is Sefer Halilovic's order to Vahid Karavelic, the commander of the
10 1st Corps to send the units, Delta, parts of 9th and 10th Brigade, and
11 Solakovic's unit. That's it in brief.
12 Q. And then if you look at point number 2, what does Sefer Halilovic
13 say there?
14 A. "If you believe that this would jeopardise the defence of
15 Sarajevo, I will bear full personal responsibility."
16 Q. Was there -- this -- you see this is on the 2nd of September,
17 this -- this particular order. Was there any conversation about this?
18 A. Yes, the 2nd of September, 1993. Yes. Well, I didn't know that.
19 I had no idea about it.
20 Q. Did you hear Sefer and the others converse about this, about
21 the -- what you see, the contents of this document? Were they talking
22 about the troops?
23 A. No. No.
24 Q. Had the troops arrived in Sarajevo at that time, on the 2nd of
25 September. The Sarajevo troops? Had they arrived?
1 A. I didn't see anybody arriving, no.
2 Q. Was it of any concern to Sefer that you heard about, that the
3 Sarajevo troops had not arrived?
4 A. I don't know -- well, does that -- is that mentioned in my book?
5 It probably is. When I was preparing the book and then with this
6 document, it all fitted in with everything, because we returned to
7 Sarajevo, so probably in order to incorporate it and link it up, it was
8 probably -- perhaps I wrote that -- I don't know. Maybe he was concerned
9 and maybe he wasn't.
10 Q. Did you then set off for Deretvica [phoen] village after that, on
11 that day?
12 A. Neretvica. That's where the command of the 45th Mountain Brigade
13 was. So we went off -- we set off from Cibo [as interpreted] towards
15 Q. Did you meet anyone on the way?
16 A. On the way from Jablanica to Konjic, we met Rasim Delic, Sulejman
17 Vranj and Alija Loncevic, who were in a jeep. We were going from --
18 coming one direction. They were coming from the opposite direction. We
19 stopped. In our car there was Sefer Halilovic, Cibo, Sefer's escort, and
20 myself. And then Vehbija Karic and Zicro and Bilajac turned up from
21 somewhere. I don't know how they turned up to be there. But anyway, we
22 all met up and all went out of the car.
23 Q. And then what happened at the car? Was there a conversation?
24 A. Yes, it came to a conversation. Sefer said to Delic that Pasalic
25 sent him a telegram saying that an HVO offensive against Mostar was being
1 planned, the hydroelectric, that part of the area. And Delic told him
2 that he had information about a Serb offensive at Igman and further in
3 that direction being prepared as well. And one of them -- it's all in the
4 book. I've forgotten. But anyway, it was about them coordinating these
5 offences at the same time, and it was the first time I was actually afraid
6 during the war that perhaps Bosnia could fall.
7 Q. Yes. And then you parted ways. You went your own ways.
8 A. We went up in the direction of Neretvica. As far as I could
9 tell, Mr. Halilovic was supposed to meet Salko Gusic, the commander of the
10 6th Corps, and the commander of the Muderis Brigade. And then we
12 Q. When you got back into the car after meeting Delic, did Sefer
13 Halilovic say anything in -- in relation to meeting Delic?
14 A. Yes. Yes, he turned to Dr. Cibo and myself -- or rather, he
15 said to Cibo, "Cibo, tell Delic that I don't need him here. I am
16 preparing for the offensive and I don't need him interfering with things
17 here. That's what he said."
18 THE INTERPRETER: And apparently the witness says, "No interpreter
19 is capable of translating this term."
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then it is going to be my
21 responsibility if the operation fails. And then he said -- and it was a
22 bit weird to me, "Delic has been entrusted with the task of taking away as
23 many powers from me as possible and so that I would only be left with a
24 little bit of management, some -- something really minor. And I thought
25 it was a bit strange that that should be the state of affairs.
1 Q. And from there you went -- and where did you go after that?
2 A. We went to Neretvica. Salko Gusic and Muderis were not there,
3 and then we went back. We found the commander of the 45th Brigade, Haso
4 Hakalovic, and we stayed there a little while and then we went back.
5 Yes, whilst we were there, there was an agreement that there
6 would be a meeting at Zuka's base at Donja Jablanica at 12.00, and so we
7 went back down to Donja Jablanica.
8 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, I would -- would point out in the
9 transcript - excuse me, Mr. Hodzic - where the interpreter says "no
10 interpreter is capable of interpreting this term." Could we have a
11 confirmation as to why is that, Your Honours? Just I'm not quite sure.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MS. CHANA: Could I ask the interpreter to tell us why --
14 THE INTERPRETER: No. That's what the witness said, that
15 apparently no interpreter is capable of interpreting this term.
16 MS. CHANA: I see.
17 THE INTERPRETER: But we feel we did.
18 MS. CHANA: Yes.
19 A. I don't know. I'm using Bosnian dialect. And when my book was
20 being translated into English and apparently the terminology is different
21 and the translator of my book also translated this sentence, and now it
22 appears like different -- it appears to be different in Bosnian.
23 MS. CHANA: Yes. I think I'll leave that there, Your Honours.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic, for that clarification.
25 And was there a meeting when you went back to Zuka's base?
1 A. Yes. When we went to there, he was sitting in the entrance hall.
2 General Delic -- no, he wasn't a general. Nobody was a general at that
3 stage. So there was Delic there and Karic and the entire group, except
4 for Sefer Halilovic. And then Sefer came and they went into the meeting
5 room, and I stayed back with the lower-ranking commanders, and they were
6 in the meeting but I wasn't present.
7 Q. Did you find out later what the purport of that meeting was?
8 A. I don't know what the meeting was about. All I know is that when
9 we came out, it was agreed that Delic would go to Central Bosnia, and I
10 don't know that he would be responsible for that area. And we went to
11 Konjic -- oh, yeah, they agreed that everybody would go to Konjic, both
12 Delic and this group and Sefer Halilovic as well.
13 Q. All right. Now, I'll take you to 5th September. Where did you
14 go on the 5th of September?
15 A. We went to Konjic and we spent the night together at the ARK,
16 Delic and Sefer. And then Delic went where he went. And we went in the
17 direction of Dobro Polje, where there was a unit -- the Prozor Battalion
18 was stationed there.
19 Q. Yes. And did you -- yes, then where else did you go after that?
20 A. Nowhere. We were there, up there, in Dobro Polje. Because we
21 went through Neretvica and we went up there.
22 Q. Was there any talk about the units of the 9th and 10th Brigade at
23 that -- on that -- at that time?
24 A. No. I still had no idea that they would be coming.
25 Q. I'd like to show you this document, Mr. Hodzic. And its 65 ter
1 number is 44, and it's 02122411. It will come up on your screen in a
3 Now, what is this document, Mr. Hodzic? Would you please be so
4 kind as to tell the Chamber.
5 A. Well, the command of the 1st Corps from Sarajevo is sending this
6 to the Chief of Staff, Sefer Halilovic, a reply about problems concerning
7 the departure of these units from Sarajevo, that Caco and Celo -- well,
8 this is to sum it up, because of rain and asking for their departure to be
9 delayed by 24 hours. And then everything got much more complicated. And
10 so finally those units never went out. That's it in a nutshell. And it
11 is signed by Karavelic Vahid, who was the 1st Corps commander.
12 Q. And this, you said, was a response to the first document I showed
14 A. Well, I suppose. It would the logical.
15 Q. But at the time, you didn't know about these troops. You didn't
16 have any conversation with Halilovic.
17 A. No, no, I had no idea. I had no idea of the order or the report
18 or this communication. But let me tell you once again: I published the
19 book in 1999, and it would be a bit ridiculous for me to say that I knew
20 nothing at all. But I mean, I put it together on the basis of my own
21 memories and the actual events and I incorporated this document, so it
22 turns out, if you read the book, that I had prior knowledge of it, but I
23 didn't. I mean, I spent -- I've wrote this book five or six years later,
24 so I incorporated into the book certain events which I felt could be put
25 in -- into certain paragraphs and then when I referred to a certain day, I
1 thought it would be a good idea to refer to these documents, indicating to
2 what was happening in the field. But at the time, I had no idea.
3 Q. No, that's fine.
4 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, this will be MFI1290.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, in my respectful
6 submission --
7 MS. CHANA: 1290.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: In my respectful submission, it won't be any MFI
9 at this stage, because the witness has simply said he never -- he never
10 did see it at that time and had nothing to do with it.
11 Frankly, Your Honours, as I understand it, Vehbija Karic --
12 sorry, pardon me. Vahid Karavelic is coming to give evidence in this
13 case. And that is exactly the witness to put this document through. I
14 have no objection to the questions about what this witness knew. They're
15 perfectly appropriate questions, and the witness has answered them.
16 Frankly, I can say that I won't be objecting to this document in the
17 future when it comes through the appropriate witness. So although it's
18 not really an appropriate time to give it an MFI number, if the Prosecutor
19 insists on doing it, frankly because we know that Mr. Karavelic is coming,
20 I won't object to it being marked, as I think about these things. So long
21 as I have an undertaking that Mr. Karavelic is actually coming.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the purpose for giving it a number just
23 for the identification.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
25 JUDGE LIU: And as I said before, at a later stage the
1 Prosecution might formally tender this document into the evidence.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
3 JUDGE LIU: So maybe that will be the proper time for us to
4 discuss about the admissibility of this document.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, yes, Your Honours I understand that. And I
6 really just want an assurance from the Prosecutor that Mr. Karavelic is
7 going to be called. And if that's the case, I won't object to this
8 document at this stage.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Ms. Chana, are you in the position to shed some
11 MS. CHANA: Yes, of course. Mr. Karavelic is on our list of
12 witnesses and he certainly will be coming. And in any event, as
13 Your Honour has said, that this is marked for identification and it's
14 290 - I correct myself - and I'm glad learned counsel actually decided to
15 go back on his objection.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, not only that. I could remind the
17 Prosecutor to give an MFI number to the previous one that she forgot to
18 do. It might be best if both of the orders are given an MFI number. I
19 don't think the first one got one, as far as I could see.
20 MS. CHANA: I believe it did. Your Honour, can you --
21 JUDGE LIU: Maybe -- yeah, maybe --
22 THE REGISTRAR: The previous one has already been marked for
23 identification as MFI161.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.
1 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Ms. Chana.
2 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Did you -- did you go back to Sarajevo on the 5th of September?
4 A. Yes, they had -- had a meeting. I didn't know. I was outside.
5 I was talk to the fighters. And then I found out that all of a sudden
6 that evening we would be leaving for Sarajevo.
7 Q. Did you know at the time why you went back to Sarajevo?
8 A. No. And it looks in the book as if I knew, because, of course, I
9 was quoting the documents. But I mean, I was simply saying for what
10 reason Sefer was going, but I avoided saying whether I knew or did not
11 know. I was just telling the story, giving an account of these events.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic. Now I will take you back -- I will take
14 you forward to 7th September. Now, on that particular date, did you go
15 back to Herzegovina?
16 A. On the 7th of September, I went back to the Chief of Staff, Mr.
17 Halilovic, at 7.00 in the evening and I met Celo in the corridor and I
18 said, "So are you going as well, Celo?" And he said "Yes." And that's
19 when I found out that those units were going.
20 Q. And who was there when -- when you -- when you went to the 1st
21 Corps forward command post?
22 A. Well, we went through the tunnel and we came again to the forward
23 command post of the 1st Corps in Hrasnica, and we found Celo there, Adnan
24 Solakovic, Pezo, and I think Cibo was with us as well. I'm not sure. But
25 certainly Cibo was there. I think he was in the car with us or -- but he
1 had his own car, so I don't know. And then there was a brigade, the
2 Hrasnicka Brigade [as interpreted], commander -- my brain has just
3 stopped. I can't remember. Oh, yeah, Fikret Pravljak.
4 Q. Yes. Was Caco there?
5 A. Caco wasn't there. And then they told Sefer that Caco didn't
6 want to go to Herzegovina, that he didn't want to lead his unit to
7 Herzegovina. And Sefer asked, "Well, what's all that about?" And then he
8 was told that he had had a disagreement with Fikret Pravljak and others
9 because apparently Caco's fighters, there were still consequences from
10 that Igman operation and apparently they were stealing sheep from the
11 people and Fikret and his people were interfering with that.
12 Q. Now, what was Sefer Halilovic's view on the matter, about Caco
13 not coming along?
14 A. He -- well, I don't know what his attitude was, but -- actually,
15 I wasn't sure that he would be able to convince Caco to get going, and he
16 asked Celo to accompany him and tried to convince him. And then Celo
17 said, "No, no, no, you don't know, Sefer. You don't know Caco. If one of
18 his men dies, I'm going to be blamed for it and I'm going to have
20 Q. So to be quite clear about this, Mr. Hodzic, you said Sefer
21 wanted to persuade Caco; is that your evidence?
22 A. He wanted to invite Caco with Celo's help to take his unit down
23 there. I don't know whether Caco himself, but that particular unit.
24 Q. Yes. And then what did Sefer do?
25 A. They went and they came back quickly and they said yes, that
1 Caco's unit and Caco himself as well were going to go. I didn't know that
2 Caco was going to go. Perhaps the unit. But the crunch was that yes,
3 they were going.
4 Q. So when they set off, where did they set off to? To find Caco?
5 When you said "they went and they came back," what was the purpose of them
6 going and what where did they go?
7 A. Yes. Well, the purpose was to go look for Caco and convince him
8 to send his unit.
9 Q. Then did Caco come to this forward command post?
10 A. He did not come with them but at a certain point somebody
11 said, "Okay. There's Caco in the corridor, but he doesn't want to come
12 in." And then Adnan Solakovic went to the door and he said, "Well, Caco,
13 why aren't you coming in?" And then he said "No." And after a while he
14 did come in and that was the first time I saw him.
15 Q. What happened when he came in?
16 A. He came in, and he was rather sceptical and distrustful of myself
17 and Cibo in particular. He was looking at us sideways and he had a
18 problem his -- with his hand because he had been wounded and so his
19 fingers had been cut off, so he was hiding his hand under the table. But
20 then all of a sudden he thought a little bit and then he started talking.
21 Q. And what were you talking about?
22 A. Well, the main thing was the characteristic aspect that we knew
23 about with regard to Caco was that he was going to Kopljari and then there
24 was somebody who was called Robin Hood and the entire conversation was
25 focussed on that, but it was all a joke, about how they went digging. And
1 I think -- it was about the media. Perhaps even the world media. When it
2 came to Vedran Smajlic, he used to play violoncello and he took this
3 artist to go digging, and many people took an interest and nobody was able
4 to do anything.
5 May I just add something else? And a couple of months earlier
6 there was the first anniversary of the massacre at the Vasemiskina Ulica
7 and there was an incredible image when this cello player at the place
8 where a shell killed and wounded many people, and he was playing there,
9 and I think it was broadcast by the world media. And this person on that
10 day was supposed to go back and play there again. And my paper by
11 coincidence, by coincidence sent me to report on that event, and I went
12 there, and everybody was expecting Caco to give in. And he did not give
13 in. He didn't let him come. And in my text I did mention something -- I
14 can't remember, but I said something along the lines of an anniversary --
15 no, the heading was a bit nicer, but I said something "An anniversary
16 without Vedran and without his cello." And when I went back to the
17 newspaper and I gave an account of what happened and I wrote my article
18 and everybody said, "Well, how is it possible that nobody can do anything
19 about this Caco person?" And I -- and then they said, "Why can't Alija?
20 Why can't Sefer?" And then somebody at the paper said the
21 following: "Now they can't, neither one nor the other, because Caco sent
22 a message to all -- whoever Alija intervenes for or on whoever's behalf
23 Alija intervenes will get 30 days more and if Sefer intervenes on their
24 behalf, they'll be hanged."
25 And so we went back to Hrasnica, we talked about it. We laughed
1 at him. He spoke at great length. And so on.
2 Q. Yes. Just to be entirely clear on the matter, you are talking
3 about Vedran Smajlic being taken to dig trenches. Is that what you are
4 talking about?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And Caco is the one who took him?
7 A. Yes -- yes, he said yes. Yes, he said yes. I was called as well
8 and Sefer called, and apparently he said he liked it. But Caco
9 said, "Everybody keeps calling me and saying that he is an artist and I am
10 an artist," and because he used to play an accordion and he was on the TV
11 orchestra. And then he said, "I am an artist as well, but we need to
12 defend Bosnia."
13 Q. And this was the conversation which was occurring at that time
14 with Caco?
15 A. Yeah, but it was a kind of joke, all of it. That was the way it
17 Q. And did Sefer say anything about Vedran Smajlic?
18 A. No, he said to Vedran, but by way of joke, he said, "I was asked
19 to call you but then I said maybe he likes it up there," but it was a
20 joke, once again.
21 And there was about -- "Is this okay? Perhaps he is going out to
22 cheat on his wife and then the wife calls me and she says, "Is my husband
23 with you?" And I said, "Yes, yes, he's here with me."
24 Q. Did Sefer say anything else about -- that whether he had tried to
25 intervene with Caco, on this matter?
1 A. No, no, no, no. Sefer -- well, no, Adnan, Pezo, and Celo were
2 the ones who talked to Caco and induced him to tell stories and then he
3 would get all fired up about it.
4 Q. Yes. Now, what happened later on that day? And we're still on
5 7th September, Mr. Hodzic.
6 A. When we set out --
7 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, may I just intervene there? I'm
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: The witness hasn't said that this conversation
11 took place on the 7th of September. He said that he set off with
12 Halilovic on the 7th of September in the evening. And it just ought to be
13 made clear whether at this stage we've moved into the early morning of the
14 8th of September or whether it remains on the 7th of September. That
15 should be clarified.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that should be clarified, Ms. Chana.
17 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I've taken the witness
18 chronologically through his evidence, but I will certainly clarify it with
19 the witness.
20 Q. Mr. Hodzic, can you tell us when was this? What date and time
21 this conversation with Caco and people took place.
22 A. Well, we set out at 8.00, perhaps a little built later. And then
23 we went through the tunnel. It took a while to get through the tunnel.
24 And then we went to the IKM. And then it all took several hours. So it
25 was still the 7th when we were at IKM, the 7th of September when we were
1 there in Hrasnica.
2 Q. And what time was it when Caco was found and this conversation
3 took place?
4 A. I really don't know. It could have been 9.00 or 10.00
5 approximately. I'm not at all sure. At any rate, at night, in the
7 Q. That's fine.
8 A. Perhaps even at 11.00.
9 Q. Was there anything which concerned Sefer at the time about the
10 Sarajevo fighters at that time, straight after that -- this?
11 A. Well, the main problem was that the fighters had to be taken to
12 Jablanica and that local commander, the local brigade commander who had
13 cars and lorries and drivers, Fikret Prevljak, wouldn't allow the lorries
14 to take them there. And then the Chief of Staff could not actually issue
15 an order to this brigade commander to take the fighters to Jablanica, and
16 he didn't allow it and he didn't allow it.
17 Q. Now, before we move on, I would like to ask you: Did you and
18 Sefer have a conversation about Caco afterwards?
19 A. Oh, you mean when we left, when it was agreed that Cibo would try
20 and find some means of transport? Well, when we set out, I said, "Sefer,
21 well, this is the first time I see this Caco person, but I don't think
22 he's all there." And he said, "No, he isn't." And he said, "Well, I
23 really don't think he is -- well, I couldn't quite say he was a lunatic.
24 I can't remember what sort of word I used then, but I said that there was
25 something wrong with him. And then he said, "Okay. He is a part of the
1 realities of war and he is useful." But he did have good fighters.
2 Q. So he said "is part of the reality of this war but he's useful."
3 What was he referring to? Useful in what way?
4 A. "Yes, but useful." Of course when we talk about Caco, we think
5 also in terms of his unit. He is one thing and his units are something
6 else. His units were guarding the most dangerous part in the area of
7 Trebevic and they managed to defend that area from the Serbs several
8 times. And in 1995 -- well, that was fate. His trenches were there and
9 there was a horrible Serb offensive in that area and he had established,
10 created those trenches and even though it was done in a slightly illegal
11 way, well, they managed to defend.
12 Q. All right. Now, we are into -- into the night of 7th September.
13 Where did you go that night?
14 A. We went to Jablanica. It was already light. Around 7.00 we came
15 to Donja Jablanica in the same way. I came out of the car, because I was
16 supposed to stay there, while Sefer went back to Zuka's apartment.
17 Q. And what did you see? Did you see Celo's soldiers on that day in
18 the morning?
19 A. I tried to get some sleep. I got up at about 10.00 or 10.30. I
20 don't know. And then I saw Bilajac, Karic, and Zicro Suljevic in front of
21 the command, and two of my colleagues from the university, former inmates.
22 They were freed. They will later figure in my story about all of this.
23 Kasim Korijenic, and Serif Krgo. They were playing chess. I spoke with
24 Karic a little bit. Sefer wasn't there. Karic's son was there also. I
25 had developed some pictures at the newsroom, and I gave the photos to
1 Karic's son to give to Zuka and the other soldiers. And then I
2 asked, "Cica, when will this offensive of ours begin?" And he
3 said, "Well, maybe tomorrow." Karic said, "Yes, yes, it's possible." So
4 I just played chess with my colleagues for a little bit, and I don't know
5 where they went and how they went. I don't know that about Karic. Zicro,
6 Bilajac. They left. I stayed to play chess, chess, chess. And then
7 later I was sitting in front of the base.
8 Every day expelled people would be passing by from Herzegovina,
9 Bosniaks. They would be passing by the base carrying their belongings.
10 Then you would see two elderly people, something a little different. They
11 were going in the opposite direction, towards Capljina. The woman was
12 obviously disturbed. She was in her slippers. And she said, "I have to
13 look after my daughter's children in Capljina," but it was about 100
14 kilometres to Capljina. There were no more Bosniaks in Capljina any more.
15 They had been expelled. She said, "I'm going to look after my daughter's
16 children while she's at work." And then we were trying to convince her
17 not to do that. Later I found out that they had gotten killed on the
18 road. They were on their way to Mostar. This happened on the way to
19 Mostar. Just by accident I found out that they had been killed.
20 I found out later from Kasim Korijenic that a new group of
21 inmates had come from Dretelj. He said they looked like they had come
22 from Auschwitz. And I thought that I would speak with them a little bit.
23 But I was sleepy and this chess had sort of pulled me in a different
24 direction so that day I didn't go and then that morning -- yes, well, I
25 won't go on any more.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hodzic. Now, the question originally had been:
2 Did you see the soldiers, the Sarajevo soldiers, pass by that morning, on
3 the 8th September?
4 A. Yes, yes, I did. Yes, I saw them I think some of them even
5 stopped and I think I even made a photo of them when they stopped in front
6 to have base. Maybe this happened around 11.00 and some of them were
7 passing and they were waving to us and then they passed by ask they left.
8 I think some of them stayed briefly, but I'm not sure. It seems to me I,
9 but I'm not sure, but this is already a little bit beyond what I remember.
10 Q. Did you see Halilovic on that day?
11 A. I did not have any communications with Sefer Halilovic from the
12 time he left me there until the next day. But I could be mistaken, but I
13 think that sometime I -- very well. I did or didn't. But I don't know.
14 I think that I did at some point see him when I was playing chess for a
15 very brief period. But I cannot be sure about it. But mostly it's true
16 that I didn't have any communication with him from that morning until the
17 next evening when we met again at the base.
18 Q. Sorry. I think you were asked to slow down, Mr. Hodzic. And
19 you've been -- been very good and you have been slow, but just to remind
20 you again.
21 How far was -- when you thought you saw Sefer Halilovic on the
22 8th, how far away was he?
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, that would be a speculative
24 question eliciting a speculative answer.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, I think so. Because the witness was not
1 sure whether he saw Mr. Halilovic or not.
2 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, I think the witness said he -- he
3 thought he -- he saw Mr. Halilovic. I would like to clarify, if I may,
4 where -- where was it that he thought he saw him.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe you could make sure whether this witness
6 saw Mr. Halilovic on that day. Then you could ask the second question.
7 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Did you see Sefer Halilovic on that day, which is the 8th of
10 A. I have an image, as I was playing chess, that I perhaps just
11 glanced at him briefly. It appeared as if he was there and I continued to
12 play chess and that's the whole story. I don't know if I did or didn't.
13 I have the impression that I did, but I cannot state that definitely. He
14 was definitely not there when Zicro, Bilajac, these three were there.
15 That's for sure, Bilajac and Karic. Because I don't know whether they
16 were waiting for him or not, but mostly I -- I don't know. He did not
17 appear there. He would have appeared in my book had I seen him, because
18 Bilajac, Zicro, and Karic do appear but his function is not there that
20 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Hodzic. Now I'm into 9th September. What
21 did you do on 9th September?
22 A. With my colleague Kasim Korijenic I went to Jablanica, where the
23 inmates were accommodated, a new batch of inmates who had been freed from
24 Dretelj. They were placed at the school, and we went to the school. He
25 told me that this Gacanin is in that group and there was a lot of talk
1 about him when the first group of inmates came, and they had tried to cut
2 his throat at the camp in Dretelj. So he came with the first group of
4 We went to the school, where there were about maybe 350 inmates.
5 And it was very difficult to me to bear it. I couldn't write down
6 anything. I just asked several of them to come outside. There was such a
7 terrible stench there. I described it as the smell of dead bodies. When
8 you go inside, you can smell this smell after an hour or two. And then
9 these people, I guess after 75 days their skill was beginning to die off
10 and that smell was the smell of death, 100 per cent, the same smell you
11 smell when you enter a morgue. I couldn't stand it. And then I asked a
12 few of them, I said, "Please come out. My blitz is not working. Will you
13 please come out so I can take pictures of you." Some of them came out,
14 seven or eight men, and I took photos of them. They looked as if they
15 were from Auschwitz. You have a picture of that in my book. They
16 said, "Well, I'm just looking at them." They said, "There are people who
17 are in a worse state than we are." I said, "Where are they?" They
18 said, "They're in the hospital. And I went to the house and I found out a
19 few of those who had been brought in and I had an interview with them and
20 then it happened that there were some captured HVO soldiers there and then
21 I spoke with them. I spoke with the Bosniak inmates and with these HVO
22 fighters, who had been wounded and who were receiving medical treatment
23 there. So there you go.
24 Q. Did you go to Jablanica and meet some acquaintances from MUP?
25 A. I finished the interview at 5.00 in the afternoon. When I
1 finished, I looked at my watch and I will never forget that. This -- two
2 days before that, they said, "Delic, Sefer, here they are coming. Those
3 people over there, Serbs from this side," I'm looking at these inmates,
4 these people, and at that time I was really -- my biorhythm was below
5 zero. Without any hope that Bosnia can be saved. And then when I went
6 down there to Jablanica, I met a younger man. He was not too far from my
7 neighbourhood, but I didn't know his name. I Knew him from seeing him
8 around. And then he said -- oh, yes, I know his name. His name is Nedzad
9 Surkovic. And then he said, "Did you hear what happened in Grabovica? I
10 said, "No, I didn't." He said somebody killed a five-member Croat family.
11 Immediately the first thing that came to mind after what I had
12 seen in Kostajnica when I was there and when those people were threatening
13 those elderly people is that some of those expellees or inmates had done
14 the killing.
15 I knew that I couldn't go there, but I wanted to go there, if I
16 could at least film it or -- or take pictures clandestinely, and this was
17 in front of the MUP. We went into the MUP, and I asked, "Is it possible
18 to go there? How?" And they said, "No, no, no way. It's all closed," so
19 I didn't really insist on that.
20 Q. And why did -- why did they say that, "It's all closed"? Why did
21 they say that it was closed?
22 A. They said that you couldn't pass through. That's what Nedzad and
23 these others said. They said, "You can't go through. You can't pass."
24 Q. Did they give you any reason as to why you couldn't pass through
25 to Grabovica village?
1 A. I think that you couldn't pass, that it was closed, in the sense
2 that, you know, the army was there. In that sense. I don't know. I
3 mean ...
4 Q. What did you do after you heard about this?
5 A. I don't know how long I was in Jablanica, for a little while.
6 But anyway, I asked this Necko [phoen] to drive me. He had a car at his
7 disposal, to take me to Donja Jablanica, where I was staying. I didn't
8 have the will to do anything, to write anything, nothing about the
9 inmates, the dead, the hospital. I didn't really want to do anything,
10 and I went to Donja Jablanica.
11 Q. And when you were at Donja Jablanica, did Sefer Halilovic come
13 A. I sat down. I can't say now how long I was sitting. I sat down
14 in this sort of waiting room or this entrance hall. That's where people
15 had their meals, and that's where Delic and Sefer had their meeting
16 earlier. So I was sitting in front of that building where fighters were
17 sitting. Anybody could sit there. There were benches there. You could
18 drink coffee there. And I was sitting alone at the table and that's when
19 Sefer came from up there.
20 Q. And what happened when Sefer came? And can you also indicate the
21 time when Sefer came, please.
22 A. No. No, I really couldn't. It's very flexible. It could be
23 8.00, 9.00, it could be 7.00, it could be 6.00 -- well, it couldn't be
24 6.00. It was after 6.00 for sure. So I really couldn't fix the time.
25 He sat next to me.
1 Q. Was there any conversation?
2 A. Yes. He was silent, and I asked him, "Where were you?" And he
3 said, "I was in Neretvica, towards Konjic," somewhere, anyway, in that
4 area, and that he was with Rusmir Mahmutcehajic, who was the minister for
5 energy. That's what he said. And then -- and the fighters were already
6 sitting around there. As soon as Sefer would come, the soldiers would
7 start gathering around him.
8 So I kind of whispered to him, "What happened in Grabovica down
9 there?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Well, what do you think that
10 that -- about whether any of these inmates or the refugees killed this
11 family?" And he said, "Well, that's what I think too." The fighters were
12 around, as I was saying. They were saying, "Hey, Sefer. How are you?
13 What's going on?" And that's when we interrupted our conversation.
14 Q. When you whispered to him, "What happened in Grabovica down
15 there," he simply said "yes." What did you understand that to mean?
16 A. I assumed that he knew about the crime. I in the beginning
17 thought that this was just this family of five that was killed.
18 Q. Did he ask you how you had heard and what you knew about these
19 crimes or -- sorry, the killings in Grabovica?
20 A. No, he didn't, because there were a lot of fighters around us
21 asking, "Sefer" -- and so it was impossible to communicate.
22 Q. What were these fighters asking Sefer?
23 A. I don't remember them asking anything that related to the crime.
24 No, I don't remember anything like that.
25 Q. What was Sefer's demeanour at the time?
1 A. Well, he was quiet. You could simply see -- well, perhaps if I
2 hadn't asked him anything, he wouldn't have said two words.
3 Q. Did he say anything else, whether he was going to do something
4 about it?
5 A. As I said, we didn't continue our conversation about that.
6 Perhaps as many as 20 fighters had assembled around us and people were
7 asking him different things. The fighters actually took the talk into
8 quite a different area from what Sefer and I were talking about.
9 Q. And how long were you sitting there and when did Sefer then
11 A. I don't know. I don't know how long. He went in the direction
12 of Jablanica.
13 Q. Sefer? Is that -- are you referring --
14 A. I think so. I'm not quite sure. Yes, yes, Sefer. I think -- I
15 think he did. I don't know. I think he did go towards Jablanica, but I
16 wasn't really paying much attention to that, but I think he did go to
18 Q. So he didn't tell you where he was going.
19 A. He didn't tell me, but it seems to me that he did go to
20 Jablanica, but I'm not quite sure about that, but I -- I think so. It
21 seemed like that to me.
22 Q. And -- and presumably you went to bed.
23 A. Probably I did, or I played chess. I don't know what I did.
24 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the next day, which is the 10th of
25 September. What happened on that day?
1 JUDGE LIU: Well --
2 MS. CHANA: Sorry, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: Maybe we could take a break, you know, before we go
4 to the 10th of September.
5 MS. CHANA: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter
7 to 1.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.
11 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Q. Mr. Hodzic, before the break, we had started on the 10th of
13 September. Can you tell us where you were on that day, please.
14 A. I was planning to go to Jablanica in the morning. The base was
15 in Donja Jablanica, so it's about 7 or 8 kilometres away from Jablanica.
16 And I was waiting for some kind of transportation in front of the base in
17 order to get to Jablanica, but no car came by and nobody was there who
18 could take me there, Zuka or anyone, if I had asked them to.
19 So I was sitting in front of the base and Celo came by in a car
20 and he stopped the car in front of the base. He came out of the car and
21 passed by, and I asked him, "Celo, are you going to Jablanica?" "Yes." I
22 looked in the back, there were two boys sitting. There was enough space
23 next to the boys and I was waiting for Celo to come back quickly.
24 At the bar in the base, Nihad Bojadzic was standing. He's Zuka's
25 deputy. And the two of them were talking. I looked to see if Celo was
1 going, but they kept talking. I didn't hear anything of what they were
3 After a while, Celo came out, opened the car door, and asked the
4 boys to come out. The boys came out, and he brought them into Zuka's
5 command and handed them over to Nihad Bojadzic, and then he came back and
6 went into the car, and I thought these were perhaps children of those
7 people who had been expelled. Maybe they were tired or something. I
8 thought those were the kids.
9 So I got to Jablanica with Celo.
10 Q. And did you see Emin Zebic there when you went to Jablanica?
11 A. Yes. I went to the MUP building right away. Actually, the
12 public security station, where this Zebic was chief. And they gave me a
13 typewriter for my use. They were the only ones in Jablanica that had a
14 working typewriter, and they gave me paper. So I started to work.
15 We had coffee. Cicko was there and quite a few other people, and
16 that's when I found out that the crime in Grabovica was committed by some
17 fighters from Sarajevo and it looked like they were Celo's soldiers and it
18 wasn't just the family of five that was killed but perhaps some 15 to 20
19 people were killed. They were talking about an engineer. Everybody was a
20 little bit down. They mentioned this younger engineer who was working in
21 the army production or manufacturing facility, and perhaps they killed him
22 too. And that's when I thought that -- well, they said that only two boys
23 were saved. So then I put two and two together and thought perhaps it was
24 the two boys that Celo had brought to the base in the morning.
25 Q. Did you ask them any questions, whether they had been to
1 Grabovica or not?
2 A. Well, no, I asked them something to the effect, "Were you there?"
3 And they said, "You couldn't go." They tried but they didn't manage,
4 something like that.
5 Q. Did they say why they could not manage to get into the village?
6 A. As far as I can remember, there was -- wasn't -- that there was a
7 checkpoint, if you wanted to get in, something like that. That the
8 checkpoint was set up by the military.
9 Q. All right. Did you meet Bakir Alispahic on that day?
10 A. This was in the afternoon, late. I spent quite some time in
11 Jablanica. There is one street in Jablanica, and I was just passing by
12 MUP and then Bakir came out and his escort and Zebic, and I just spoke
13 with him briefly. It was raining and it was still raining. And by the
14 time he reached the car, we talked a little bit about the crime. And he
15 told me then. I understood that and I spoke to Karic about it, that
16 he -- he mentioned Sefer and Karic, but I understood that -- it to be
17 about how this commission will be formed, headed by Karic. And later I
18 asked Karic, "Did you do anything?" And he said, "This is the first time
19 I'm hearing about this commission." But I remember it. I think he even
20 mentioned the public prosecutor or something like that. But this was just
21 as we were walking. He told me he was going to the ARK for a meeting in
22 Konjic, where Sefer and Cibo will also -- will be -- and Mahmutcehajic,
23 and that's what he said -- he went. And then he went.
24 Q. And then you returned to Donja Jablanica.
25 A. After that, I don't know how. At that time moment, Zuka came by
1 in the jeep with Edib Sahic inside. Zuka was quite affected because they,
2 I think, killed one of his men. He was very angry. He said, "This is a
3 slap in the face to everyone. They will think that it was my men who did
4 it. These guys should be arrested. They should be hanged," something
5 like that. Saric also said, "Yes, this is a slap in the face to our
6 army." And then I asked him, "And what about these boys?" Because I had
7 already put two and two together. He said, "Well, they're in a safe
8 place. They're with me and they're safe. I will protect them." And he
9 said that he was protecting those people there the entire time, the
10 civilians and, "Look at what these people did now."
11 Q. Did he -- did he say -- what did you understand -- who was it
12 that Zuka was blaming? Who were "these people"?
13 A. The killers, the ones who did the killings.
14 Q. Yes. But when you said "my soldiers may be blamed," that's
15 Zuka's soldiers, who was he putting the blame on, Zuka himself?
16 A. Yes. Yes, I remember. That perhaps somebody could make a false
17 accusation. Perhaps don't know. I mean it's his soldiers that are there.
18 That his soldiers committed it, and they didn't.
19 Q. But -- but you never got from him who he thought had done it.
20 A. No. No. Later we talked, but it was immediately known about
21 Celo -- well, actually, there was talk about it. It wasn't known. I
22 mean, I returned to Sarajevo, but I wasn't quite sure who did what for
24 Q. Now, let me take you to 11 September. Did you meet somebody from
25 the Igmanski Vukovi who came to Donja Jablanica?
1 A. Yes. I was sitting again. As I say, I was sitting alone in
2 Zuka's base. In this room. There was no electricity. There was just a
3 candle. And a man came up to me. I didn't know him. He sat down next to
4 me. I said, "Who are you?" He said, "Well, you were making an interview
5 down there with me when you came the first day. I'm from the Igman
6 Wolves." And that's when I understood that that was the person who was
7 the most important next to Saric. I knew Saric. But when I was there, he
8 wasn't there. So he told me what he knew about how the crime happened. I
9 asked him, "Did you see it?" He said, "Yes, I saw it all, friend. I
10 can't sleep. I can't eat. These were wonderful people. They gave us
11 everything we asked for. Two days ago I was in that family." He probably
12 meant the Zadro family that was killed. "They made a pie for us." I
13 said, "Did they line them up and shoot them?" He said, "No, they went
14 from house to house killing." And I said, "What did they do with the
15 bodies?" He said, "They threw them into the Neretva." "Could you help
16 them in any way," I said. He said, "No, these people were under the
17 influence of drugs, alcohol." He said, "They attacked even four or five
18 Bosniaks -- Bosniak women, refugees, Muslims. They tried to rape some of
19 them. Some tried to escape to our base but then they fired at us and we
20 returned the fire," and so on.
21 Q. Now, I'll take you to 12th September, Mr. Hodzic, and I would ask
22 you: Did you interview these two children on that date?
23 A. On the 12th in the morning, Kasim Korijenic, this colleague of
24 mine -- actually, the day before he said that they slept at their place,
25 that Zuka had designated this soldier, a tall guy, Sjenicak to be with
1 these boys. And he was in the same room where this Kasim Korijenic was
2 and he had a masters degree and this other man was a poet. He had put
3 them in the room with the best people to sleep in that room. And then in
4 the morning, when this Sjenicak came back from breakfast. He was taking
5 them to the base. He said, "Well, here the boys are," and that's when I
6 went sort of in between the buildings because I couldn't really do it in
7 the open -- open and that's when we sat down and I spoke with them. Well,
8 we at didn't actually speak together. They just told me the story.
9 Q. Now, very, very briefly, Mr. Hodzic, please, would you tell us
10 what the children told you.
11 A. The boys told me -- I put down all the names, Goran and Zoran
12 Zadro. One was 11. The other one was 13. They said on that day, on the
13 9th, i the morning at 11.00 three soldiers came in front of their house.
14 They had quite specific haircuts, shaved -- the back of the heads were
15 shaved and they were easily recognisable. And I asked them what ethnicity
16 they were. And they said they were Croats. And then they asked whether
17 they had any livestock and they said, "Yes, we did." And then their
18 grandfather and grandmother and father went to the barn to show them the
19 cattle and that's when they heard the shots and they concluded that they
20 had been killed. Then their mother gave them a sign that they should run
21 to the forest. They escaped to the forest. They saw from the woods how
22 their mother and their sister were being taken out. It was a little girl.
23 They were hungry and they probably weren't dressed properly either. So
24 before evening they came back near the road. And that's when I think they
25 said three soldiers came by and asked them to surrender, to -- not to
1 surrender but to come up to them without being afraid. And they took them
2 back to the base or wherever they were. They gave them something to eat.
3 And then they took them home so that they could take some clothes, so that
4 they could dress.
5 And they came in front of the house and they saw -- said that
6 there were three dead bodies near the barn. That was probably the
7 grandfather, the grandmother, and the father. And in front of the house,
8 their mother was lying down and her daughter - their sister - covered with
9 a sheet, and then they said how -- I'm sorry, can I -- can I -- wait. Can
10 I pause for a bit?
11 Q. Yes, of course, Mr. Hodzic. Please take your time, Mr. Hodzic.
12 There's no hurry.
13 A. They said they had uncovered the mother. She had been shot in
14 the chest, and they saw their little sister, who was three and a half
15 years old, who had been shot in the face. And then he said one thing, a
16 sentence that has been haunting me for years. He said, "That girl, three
17 and a half years old," he said "was blond and had green eyes." That was
18 like an arrow going through my heart.
19 Q. Yes, indeed. Mr. Hodzic, did these children tell you anything
20 about the way they had been treated since they were discovered by the --
21 the -- the Bosnian army, the people who had handled them? Did they make
22 any comments about their treatment?
23 A. No, they didn't say anything else. I took note of their names
24 and the little one said something else as well, that he had everything
25 like he was the most -- as if he had been the owner of the house "I had a
1 house and the livestock and now I have nothing left and where are my goats
2 now," and all that.
3 Q. Did Sefer Halilovic come to the base in Donja Jablanica when the
4 children were there?
5 A. The children left. They left with this other guy. I don't know
6 where they went to. And I stayed with Kasim and -- I mean, I did meet
7 them, but then they left, supposedly to that house. I don't know where he
8 took them.
9 And then after a while I -- somebody else came, and then
10 Mr. Halilovic came and Cibo with him. And I think we had spoken on the
11 phone in the evening and we had agreed that -- I think they had come to
12 pick me up or something. Maybe they had some other business to attend to.
13 Well, I can't really remember. But at any rate, we went in the direction
14 of Dobro Polje and the Prozor Battalion.
15 Q. Could you tell -- did you tell Mr. Halilovic about the
16 conversation you'd had with the children?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Why was that, Mr. Hodzic?
19 A. I don't know. I just didn't.
20 Q. All right. Now, we're still on the 12th, Mr. Hodzic, and you're
21 going off to Prozor. What was the purpose of now you going off to Prozor
22 with Mr. Halilovic?
23 A. Well, to prepare for battle, for combat operations.
24 Q. Who else was with you as you were going towards Prozor?
25 A. Cibo, Dr. Cibo, and his entourage.
1 Q. And on the way there, did you discuss this massacre in Grabovica?
2 A. Yes. I asked Sefer what had happened in relation to that meeting
3 at the ARK, at Konjic, where they meet -- where they had that meeting a
4 couple of days earlier, and I think Sefer started saying -- or maybe Cibo.
5 I can't remember precisely. But they said that they did talk and that
6 they talked about the massacre and Bakir Alispahic asked for the operation
7 to be interrupted and Cibo said -- and Cibo butted in and said -- and at
8 that stage I asked him, "Are you mad? Don't talk about interrupting
9 operations. What we need to do is save 100.000 people, 100.000 Bosniaks
10 from Herzegovina," and then Sefer tried to calm things down and he
11 said, "Let's make it clear. I don't approve of what has happened down
12 there, but there is a certain sequence of events and doing things. We
13 first have to complete the offensive and, you know, carry out the
14 punishment, and then there are people who are in charge of that, to
15 investigate crimes, and then the legal procedure would follow." And it
16 was totally in line with Sefer's views in other situations earlier. He
17 said, "Okay. This person is in charge of legal matters and this is an
18 army," et cetera. And it was the same thing when there was a disagreement
19 between Zuka and Hakalovic and then they -- on the 2nd of September, there
20 was some sort of ambush or something to kill someone, and then he
21 said, "You don't need to settle these accounts between the two of you. We
22 have a certain legal procedure. There is a person in charge of that who
23 is going to look into the matter, and everything has to be done according
24 to the provisions of the law." And so that's how he said that as well.
25 Q. Mr. Hodzic, I will show you another document, if I may, and this
1 one is D157, Your Honours.
2 It will come on your screen in a minute. Is it there before you,
3 Mr. Hodzic? I can't see it -- yes.
4 Can you tell us what this --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- what this document is and whether you've seen it before.
7 A. Yes, I've seen it before. So it's a letter. I can't see the
8 signature, but I know what it is -- yeah, Rasim Delic, the commander from
9 Visoko. He is writing --
10 Can you scroll it down a little bit? Yeah, the headquarters and
11 the Supreme Command -- forward the command personally -- Jablanica, the
12 command of the 6th Corps. So Delic is writing that he had found out from
13 the Chief of Staff of the 6th Corps about the planned combat operations in
14 the direction of Prozor and Mostar, and in this respect he orders to
15 investigate the decision in terms of the feasibility and the possibility
16 of carrying out the task and in line of the outcome of that investigation
17 to change a decision and to bring it all down to the actual feasibility
18 level and to look into the data about genocide of the civilian population
19 on the part of the members of the 9th Brigade of the 1st Corps, and in
20 case it is confirmed, to isolate the perpetrators, undertake all the
21 necessary and strict measures, and to do everything in order to prevent
22 that from happening again and to order the deputy commander of the 9th
23 Brigade of the 1st Corps to go back to Sarajevo straight away about
24 solving the problems in the unit and to -- and for him to be informed
25 about all this straight away.
1 Q. Now, when was the first time you actually saw this and who showed
2 it to you?
3 A. I saw this document for the first time in the morning of the 9th,
4 when Sefer came to Jablanica. He said to me, "Okay. I have something to
5 show you," and he showed it to me and he read it out to me. And I didn't
6 have my glasses, so I couldn't read it myself. And so he read through the
7 first part of the letter from Delic to him, and then he read through this
8 point, that is to say, to scale down the scope of the operations, and he
9 said that it wouldn't be done, that they would not scale the operation
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... the transcript says that you
12 first saw it in the morning of the 9th. But would you look at the date of
13 this document, Mr. Hodzic.
14 A. I did not say the 9th.
15 Q. Well, then the --
16 A. On the 12th. Maybe I made a mistake. I'm sorry. I do
17 apologise. On the 12th. So on that morning, not the 12th but -- not the
18 9th. On the 12th. On that morning that we set out to Prozor.
19 Q. It was on the way, wasn't it, as you were going to Prozor that
20 this document was shown to you?
21 A. No. No, no, no, actually, before the departure.
22 Q. Yes. And you said that Sefer said you're not going to -- that
23 the operations were not going to be scaled down. Did he say anything
24 about the other leg of it? Is --
25 A. That there was no need to scale it down.
1 Q. And what did he say about -- regarding the genocide committed
2 against the civilian population by members of the 1st Corps 9th Motorised
3 Brigade and to isolate the perpetrators and take the energetic measures?
4 Did he have anything to say about that aspect of Rasim Delic's order?
5 A. No. He did not read out that part to me, nor did he say anything
6 in this respect.
7 Q. Did he say anything else about continuing with the offensive?
8 A. Perhaps it's somewhere in the book, but I really can't remember
9 at this stage. He did say once that that offensive was going to make a
10 contribution to the liberation of the country, but I can't remember.
11 Q. Did you at some later stage interview Rasim Delic about this
12 particular 12th September order, later on?
13 A. Yes, I did talk to him.
14 Q. And what did you talk to him about?
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, would the witness just excuse me a moment,
16 please. I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, when the Prosecution has decided
19 not to call Mr. Delic himself, this evidence just can't be led. I'm not
20 talking the objection on the basis that it's hearsay, although it
21 obviously is hearsay. But when the Prosecutor makes a decision not to
22 call the witness for whatever reasons they have, to lead this material, in
23 my submission, just can't help this Tribunal to make any decision. It
24 couldn't assist you with anything. What Mr. Delic may have said about
25 things at a later time -- currently you don't even have a time when that
1 interview took place. I mean, we don't know when it was, and the
2 Prosecutor hasn't asked yet. But -- well, perhaps I'll just say at this
3 stage perhaps the -- we should find out, first of all, when this interview
4 took place before I say any more.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, I believe that the conversation conducted
6 between the two persons, so we could hear one side of view concerning of
7 that conversation.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
9 JUDGE LIU: And as for how much weight the Bench should give to
10 that piece of evidence, that's something -- we will discuss it and
11 consider it at a much later stage.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
13 JUDGE LIU: I understand that Mr. Delic is not called by the
14 Prosecution at this stage.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Are there any possibility for the Defence to call
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well --
19 JUDGE LIU: In your case?
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, we know where he is, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Of course.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: But I'll -- I mean, I would say as a certainty,
23 no. We could discuss this matter in another way. I'm -- the objection is
24 not to the witness giving his account. I'm -- in a sense I'm not
25 concerned by -- by Mr. Hodzic. He -- if the Court wishes to hear -- hear
1 it, then -- then you'll make an order to that effect, of course. I just
2 make the point at this stage that perhaps my objection was a little bit
3 premature because we don't know when this interview took place and perhaps
4 that should be asked before we go much further.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you very much.
6 Well, Ms. Chana, maybe you should lay down some foundations about
7 the time or maybe place -- the conversation took place.
8 MS. CHANA: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Hodzic, would you please tell Their Honours, when was it that
10 you interviewed Rasim Delic?
11 A. I don't know what the date was exactly, but it was published in
12 Oslobodjenje, that interview, so you can find out the date, but I can't
13 remember exactly.
14 Q. Was it before you published your book or after? This is an
15 attempt to -- to remind you of the date.
16 A. It must be before, because it's in the book. Perhaps it was
17 around the time when the book was about to be published. I move asked him
18 on that occasion and then he might have told me, "It is possible but maybe
19 it's not the case." I asked both him and Sefer. And he said to me that
20 Sefer did not send anything in relation to that report, and then I said to
21 Sefer -- and not just about this report. But other things. And Delic
22 said no and Sefer said yes, he kept him up to date on everything and on a
23 regular basis, and so that's what I wrote.
24 Q. Yes. Now, to go back again to try to pinpoint the date --
25 A. And I don't know.
1 Q. Now, as I said, to go back to try and pinpoint the date, when was
2 your book published?
3 A. I hope you don't mind, but I can't remember.
4 Q. What year, Mr. Hodzic? That would be --
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Can I just assist here? I don't mind if the
6 witness is shown the book, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Just in terms of that, it's not controversial.
9 JUDGE LIU: Of course.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: The witness could be shown the book or even my
11 friend could read it out to him.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MS. CHANA: Well, I'll --
14 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Chana, you could lead evidence on that.
15 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.
16 A. I think it was --
17 Q. In --
18 A. I do write a great deal, so I can't help forgetting things.
19 MS. CHANA: May I show the witness -- it's not in B/C/S.
20 It's 1992 -- no, it can't be. 1996. That's what it says on the
22 A. No, it can't be.
23 Q. 2000.
24 A. It was the first thing -- no, that was the first book. Yeah, but
25 the year 2000. Yes.
1 Q. Yes. So was it --
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
3 MS. CHANA:
4 Q. Was it before then? How many months would you say would it be
6 A. It must be before.
7 Q. About how long before you published -- the first -- the book was
8 published? About, Mr. Hodzic.
9 A. I think the printing process took about six months, and so how
10 much earlier than that -- it could be anything. If I knew you were asking
11 to -- you were going to ask this question, I could, you know, check with
12 Oslobodjenje and then I would be able to give you an answer.
13 Q. Yes. But it would be fair to say it was sometime in 2000 that
14 you had an interview with Mr. Delic?
15 A. Perhaps 1999. I don't know. I really can't say. But maybe it
16 was -- sometime between 1999 and 2000, because the series of articles came
17 out in January 1999 and so it was sometime in between. So either in 1999
18 or in 2000.
19 Q. Now, can you tell us about this interview. What did you -- did
20 you discuss with him? First I'll talk to you in relation to the 12th
21 September order, this order that I've just shown you.
22 A. With whom? With whom?
23 Q. With Mr. Delic.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, may I just --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had --
1 MR. MORRISSEY: [Previous translation continues] ...
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must be published.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I have to renew any
6 objection mere. Your Honours, this is really an attempt of the Prosecutor
7 in my submission to have the account of Mr. Delic put before the Tribunal
8 at a time when the Prosecution has renounced to call that individual.
9 Now, it's quite evident here -- well, no, I won't make a speech about it.
10 What I submit is that you now know the date of this interview. You know
11 that it happens in 2000. You know that -- you know a number of facts
12 about what had already happened by the year 2000. And frankly, this is
13 too late. It's just way late. It's just why -- it couldn't be probative
14 of any matter before this Tribunal what was said, and the witness can give
15 his evidence in good faith, of course. It's just a question that it's not
16 going to help you what was said in a conversation by the year 2000. So I
17 submit that this shouldn't be pursued now. It's too remote.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, when we evaluate that piece of evidence, we'll
19 take your objection into the consideration; but, however, this piece of
20 the evidence could be presented in this courtroom.
21 You may proceed.
22 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Hodzic, would you tell us: When you interviewed Mr. Delic,
24 did you ask him about the 12th September 1993 order that we have just
25 shown you?
1 A. I don't know what you mean. I did an interview with Delic after
2 this book, a long interview, and it was the front-page article. Precisely
3 when things were beginning to heat up about this Grabovica business and I
4 asked him about Grabovica and all that. I mean, if you have any
5 documentation, perhaps you could show it to me, because I really don't
6 know. I have -- I simply can't seem to make the connection. What do you
7 have in mind? The interview after, afterwards?
8 Q. How many interviews did you have with Mr. Delic?
9 A. Many.
10 Q. I'm talking about -- we're at 12th September 1993. I've shown
11 you this order by Mr. Delic to Halilovic to reconsider the scope of the
12 operation. Right?
13 A. [No audible response]
14 Q. Did you ever have occasion to talk to Mr. Delic about this order?
15 A. Yes. I've told you. All that boils down to the fact that Sefer
16 didn't inform him, and then I asked Sefer, and he claimed he did. And at
17 this stage, I mean there are perhaps two pages of the text, my questions
18 and his answers, but I can't recollect a single word. I mean, it is all
19 in writing. Even if I wanted to hide something, I wouldn't be able to,
20 but I am able to forget things, unfortunately.
21 Q. Yes. But just to be clear, when you said that it "boils down to
22 the fact that Sefer did inform him and I asked Sefer and he claimed he
23 did." Now, can you tell us what he was talking about? Inform him?
24 Inform him of what?
25 A. I really don't know what to say. Perhaps the operation, at what
1 stage they were doing what, and they had this Dzankovic person there who
2 was in charge of security and it was certainly his task to keep reporting.
3 It wasn't he himself personally had to take care of everything. There was
4 a distribution of tasks.
5 Q. You did publish this order in your book, did you not, Mr. Hodzic,
6 this 12th September order?
7 A. Yes, I did. I did. I got it and I published it.
8 Q. Where did you get it from?
9 A. I made a written request. It was all totally legal. And I made
10 the request to the commander of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina. The request was approved, and I got it from the archives of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I got his approval from -- for some other
13 operations, and then a second commander and then a third commander, I got
14 their approval to make use of the archives.
15 Q. All right. So let's go back to this controversy that you talked
16 about earlier on when you interviewed Sefer and Halilovic -- sorry, and
17 Delic about being informed. I'd ask you: Is it informed about events on
18 the ground in Herzegovina at the time of combat? Is that what you're
19 referring to?
20 A. Yes, it was about fighting in Herzegovina, did he have any
21 information. And he said that as to the outcome and the course of battle,
22 that he had received no information. It seems to me that that is my
23 impression, that he said that was the way it was and then Sefer said yes.
24 Q. All right. So let's go back to -- now, we are back to the 12th
25 again, and you are on your way. And this Sefer is reading out this order
1 to you. You said you -- you couldn't see -- you didn't have your glasses,
2 so you couldn't read it yourself. But you saw Sefer reading from the
3 document, did you?
4 A. No. Point 1, yeah.
5 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Hodzic? "Point 1, yeah," can you please tell us
6 what that means?
7 A. Well, to look into the decision in terms of scaling the operation
8 down, and Sefer said that he wouldn't do it, that there would be no
10 Q. Did you bring to his attention any matter about the consequences
11 of not scaling down the operation and listening to Mr. Delic's order?
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, just a moment. That's, with respect, a
13 relatively misleading question. If you have a look at -- at what the
14 order itself requires, it requires Halilovic to consider the matter.
15 There's no order there telling him to scale it down at all, and the
16 witness shouldn't have that put to him in that form. The witness has seen
17 the order before and has published it in his book, and it ought to be put
18 to him properly and not in the form it was, so I object.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Ms. Chana, I believe you have to -- to lead
20 this witness step by step.
21 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. And this time I -- I think learned
22 counsel is quite correct in that objection.
23 Q. So what I will ask you is: When -- when Sefer was asked to
24 reconsider the scale of the operation, he had -- you said he obviously
25 disagreed. Was there any other discussion about -- what the consequences
1 of his disagreeing.
2 A. No, not about the consequences. Quite the contrary. When we got
3 there, we no longer spoke about that. But the same thing was recounted to
4 me in almost the same terms by Vehbija Karic when we got there and found
5 the team in question ask then Vehbija said, "Sefer, there is a telegram
6 from Delic for you," and that's probably what he said in mind. And Sefer
7 said, "Yes, I know." And then Karic said, "No, no, no, it's out of the
8 question. We can't scale down the operation." And Sefer said, "We'll
9 follow the original plan."
10 Q. And --
11 A. And they used to operate as a team anyway.
12 Q. And -- and when Karic said that, did he refer to the same order?
13 The 12th --
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, just sorry. No, I object --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, may I --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Before the witness is entitled to be asked that
19 question - it's not the witness's fault - it has to be sure that the
20 witness saw the order that Karic had. If it helps the Tribunal at a later
21 time that my friend may choose to ask the question, "Did he infer that it
22 was the same order?", which may -- may have some value. I doubt it, but
23 it might. But it has to be established that he saw that order before that
24 question can be put to him.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I thought I had done that, that -- was
2 Karic talking about the same order. But I will ask the witness again.
3 Q. When Karic said, "There's a telegram," what did he mean? Could
4 you please assist Their Honours.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, the -- perhaps I didn't make my
6 objection clear, and that's my fault. The objection is to -- to be clear,
7 whether this witness saw whether Karic physically had the document or
8 whether he's just in a position of having to draw conclusions and
9 inferences. That's important because there's going to -- and I make it
10 clear so that everyone understands. We've got some serious questions
11 about this -- not questions against this witness but questions about this
12 particular order and document, so we're very keen to make it clear whether
13 the piece of paper was seen or not by Karic.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Sometimes we have to go slower, Ms. Chana.
15 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Hodzic, what did Karic say to you?
17 A. No, Karic didn't say anything to me, but he told Sefer that there
18 was a telegram from Delic that he had and he said authoritatively that the
19 scaling-down of the operation was out of the question. I didn't see the
20 document. I concluded that it refers to that document, but perhaps it
21 does not.
22 Q. And when Karic said -- yeah, Karic says to Sefer that he has a
23 telegram and then you said he said, "Authoritatively that the
24 scaling-down" -- before Karic replied to his own answer -- to his own
25 question, what was -- what was the question to Halilovic and what was his
1 reply that you -- you heard?
2 A. There was no question. It was Karic's assertion or remark in
3 front of Sefer and he said to Sefer - he didn't ask him anything - "There
4 is a letter for you from Delic," that they received up there in that place
5 where they were, this group, Karic, Bilajac, Zicro. Sefer said, "I know.
6 I received it." He didn't say anything more. Karic said, "A scaling-down
7 of the operation is out of the question." Sefer said, "We're proceeding
8 according to plan." There were no questions there.
9 Q. All right. Did you ask Sefer what was the scale of the
11 A. I did ask him once when the operation will begin. I don't know,
12 he said that, the operation could make the position of
13 President Izetbegovic easier for the negotiations, if it were to bear
14 fruit, if it were to end successfully, something along those lines.
15 On our way back - this is something else - from up there, then
16 Cibo, he and I talked. Actually, Cibo said first that this was the
17 biggest offensive since the beginning of the war, and Sefer said something
18 along similar lines -- or Sefer said that about the offensive. I don't
19 know exactly. But mostly Cibo and him and I spoke that if it was a
20 success, then that would be the real thing.
21 Q. All right. So where did --
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, sorry. Perhaps I could just
23 intervene again.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm sorry to do this again. But I
1 just noticed my learned friend has been putting to the witness the
2 words "the operation." And I'd just like to point out that on the order
3 that is there, which is the subject of this cross-examination, what's
4 referred to is "plan --" I'm quoting now from the preamble: "Planned
5 combat actions." And then in the first paragraph, there is a
6 requirement -- an order to "re-examine the decision in the sense of a
7 realistic estimate of forces and possibilities of carrying out of tasks."
8 Now, I'm not suggesting that there was any attempt to mislead. We've all
9 slipped into the use of the term from time to time. But it shouldn't
10 proceed that the word "the operation" be used as arising out of this
11 particular order, if indeed this is the order that's being referred to
12 because the words "the operation" just aren't used in the paragraph that
13 I've referred to, which seem to be the operative questions. And that has
14 got some relevance to the case. I don't want to make a speech in front of
15 the witness. You'll recall -- I won't say the name of it. But you'll
16 recall the -- yes. I'll confine myself to saying Your Honours know why it
17 is that I'm concerned about that matter. It's -- again, it's not a
18 problem with the witness and frankly it's not a criticism of the
19 Prosecutor there. It's -- it's just that I'm a bit touchy about the use
20 of that term "the operation" in the context of the use of this order. So
21 that's what I raise now.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe the best way is to use whatever is said
23 in that document.
24 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I've actually moved on from the
25 document. I'm just generally saying what was the conversation. And I
1 think the witness did say - and I'll clarify it for him - from him again.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me --
3 MS. CHANA: What word did he use.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, to me it's all right, but there might be some
5 confusion which could be mixed up with other operations.
6 MS. CHANA: Yes. May I clarify this from the witness?
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, the document said "planned combat action."
8 MS. CHANA: Yes, "combat action." And then later on he's talking
9 about the conversations that Cibo and them are having --
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
11 MS. CHANA: -- about what.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may ask --
13 MS. CHANA: What was the word.
14 JUDGE LIU: You may ask some questions to this witness.
15 MS. CHANA: Yes, and I take my learned friend's point that it's
16 important to clarify this adds to what -- what they -- what they referred
17 to it amongst themselves as they were conversing about it.
18 Q. Mr. Hodzic, you heard the objection of my -- of learned Defence
19 counsel. When they were talking about scaling down - and I'm not going to
20 use the word - what word did they use? What was the word that they were
22 A. I can just read that it says: "To review the decision and bring
23 it down to -- within realistic options." But that's all that I can say.
24 Your Honours, in my book it's mentioned, because this happened
25 later, but I didn't know at the time when the operation was underway that
1 the operation was called "Neretva." In my -- when we were talking about
2 it, or as it was going on, there was no reference to the Operation
3 Neretva. Later, when I was speaking to Karic and so on, there was talk
4 about what is that operation called of ours? I think Karic said "Mostar."
5 I think Sefer also said "Mostar." I didn't think that they were trying to
6 deceive me. But I really didn't know that it was called "Operation
7 Neretva," even that there was a map that existed, which I saw for the
8 first time in some newspaper that somebody published.
9 Now I am using the term "operation," but at the time I never
10 mentioned that in any report.
11 Q. But, Mr. Hodzic, what was it that when they were discussing it --
12 and I'm not asking you to look at the order now, whatever the order says.
13 Between themselves, what terminology did they use? When Karic says, you
14 know, we've been asked to do this about whatever - I don't want to put any
15 words in your mouth - what was the terminology between themselves, and
16 Halilovic says, "I'm not going to do this"? What was the terminology
17 between themselves that they were using?
18 A. I have no clue. The military usually used the term "combat
19 operation." Sometimes I would say "offensive." "Combat operations," [as
20 interpreted] it was the most -- the most frequently used. But I cannot
21 specifically say well, that's when Sefer said "operation" or -- or
22 "offensive" or "combat activities" or that -- whoever said what.
23 Q. Yes. Now, I think, just to remind you again, Mr. Hodzic, we are
24 still on the 12th of September. Then where did you go with Sefer
1 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I've just -- I
2 apologise. I've interrupted numerous times now. This one is a
3 translation issue that's been brought to my attention.
4 [Defence counsel confer]
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Could we just have a clarification for -- at page
6 104, line 7, the witness said: "Sometimes I would hear 'offensive.'" And
7 then the next word has been rendered as "combat operations." Could we
8 just is that the interpreter clarify that, because I'm instructed by the
9 Bosnian speaker here that it was "combat activities" that was the word us.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Correction: Combat activities.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
12 MS. CHANA:
13 Q. Mr. Hodzic, the question was: Where did you go on the 12th with
14 Sefer Halilovic? You were on your way somewhere.
15 A. We arrived at Dobro Polje, and on the way we were joined by the
16 commander of the 45th Brigade from Neretvica, who had his unit up there,
17 which was already close to these people from Prozor. And then we went to
18 these fighters of Haso Hakalovic. Sefer was telling them something. We
19 went through the forest. There were several groups there. Then we went
20 to -- past the people from Prozor. Enver Buza was talking to them in the
21 field about something, and Sefer very briefly. And I remember that he
22 said at the time that, "Your task should be towards Vilica Guvno and to go
23 towards," what's it called, Makljen, I think. And that's when an
24 interesting thing happened, which I did not record, unfortunately.
25 Mr. Halilovic addressed the group with Haso Hakalovic, and in
1 several other places, and also the group from Prozor. He literally
2 repeated everything to the fighters about how they should go -- like, he
3 said in Kostajnica that they -- what I recorded and what you have, so that
4 I don't have to repeat.
5 I intended to record that, and because I always had a lot of
6 problems and I didn't have enough film and I had even fewer cassettes, so
7 I didn't want to waste the cassette. But I wished I could have taped that
8 and I wish I had that, because I just thought, Well, as a journalist I
9 don't need that any more.
10 Q. So on that day, did Halilovic address the Prozor Independent
11 Battalion once or twice?
12 A. Yes. We went to Voljevac, and he addressed the fighters there,
13 and that's the photo which you showed here, and he told them that the plan
14 was to go to Crni Vrh for them, and then he again felt that he needed to
15 address the fighters again from -- the fighters from Prozor and Neretvica,
16 and we went back -- well, we had to go back anyway, to take that road back
17 to Jablanica. There was no other road.
18 And then when we got there, again he spoke to them. I didn't
19 record it, but just based on my recollection. He briefly said that the
20 offensive was starting tomorrow and that this just happened to coincide
21 with the 13th of September, when he left the Yugoslav People's Army and
22 joined -- came to Bosnia and Herzegovina and joined in the planning of the
23 Patriotic League, and so on and so forth. And then one fighter
24 said, "Long live the second Tito," and that's how it was.
25 The mood was quite pleasant. The fighters were in a good mood.
1 They were singing songs to Sefer Halilovic, to Alija Izetbegovic, to Buza,
2 and so on.
3 Q. All right. Now, did the offensive start the next morning, on the
5 A. On the 13th of June [as interpreted], the offensive was supposed
6 to begin from Bugojno to Mostar, throughout that whole area.
7 Q. Sorry, Mr. Hodzic. You said 13th of June. Do you mean 13th of
8 September? The transcript reflects --
9 A. September, yes. Of course.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] September, of course.
12 JUDGE LIU: I believe before we are going to the 13th of
13 September we have to stop here.
14 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: And, Witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay in The
16 Hague for another day, and please remember that you are still under the
17 oath during your stay in The Hague. So do not talk to anybody and do not
18 let anybody talk to you about your testimony.
19 Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and I'll see you
20 tomorrow morning.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have two minutes left for this sitting.
23 Ms. Chana, could you please inform me how long --
24 MS. CHANA: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE LIU: You are going to take to finish the direct
2 MS. CHANA: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I was proceeding with
3 all due speed. And I think the half an hour we lost this morning has
4 impacted on my promise to finish in one session. But I would need exactly
5 that, Your Honour, half an hour more, half an hour to 45 minutes, tops.
6 JUDGE LIU: I see.
7 And, Mr. Morrissey? I'm not going to blame you on the 30 minutes
8 we lost in the morning, but maybe you could brief me about how long you
9 are going to take for the cross-examination so that we could decide
10 whether we have to sit tomorrow afternoon or we could finish -- I mean,
11 take a break before the Prosecution's -- after the Prosecution's case, I'm
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm just considering really now,
14 having heard the evidence, what the position is. There is the possibility
15 of -- of a -- of a controlled cross-examination -- of a -- well, they
16 should all be controlled, but a relatively short cross-examination. And I
17 just need to reflect on that. Some -- the evidence has come out in a
18 particular way. The witness hasn't really -- well, he's given his
19 evidence live in a very detailed way. That certainly has had an impact on
20 what I was going to ask him about a lot of things I was going to ask have
21 come out.
22 Would Your Honours permit me to -- to just think about this for a
23 little while and communicate with the -- with Your Honours' associates
24 this afternoon and, of course, with the Prosecution as well?
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: I'd like to make it short, if I can, and it's
2 possible that that can happen.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: He was going to be a long witness. Now, I think,
5 possibly not so ...
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Thank you very much.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
8 JUDGE LIU: Of course you could do that.
9 And we have reserved tomorrow afternoon's sitting from 4.00 to
10 5.30. This is the -- the time that we could get.
11 And I have to remind the parties that we'll have a 65 ter meeting
12 in room 177 this afternoon at 2.30. And because of the space limit still,
13 two people from each team is allowed to take part, at which we'll be
14 talking about the future planning. That will not go into the substance of
15 this case, so it's very off-record discussions.
16 Thank you. The hearing is adjourned for this morning.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
19 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.