Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Friday, 20 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 Mr. Court Deputy, would you please call at case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 I understand that the Defence has something to raise.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we've got a number of matters to

12 raise. Your Honours, there is just some housekeeping matters that we have

13 to deal with I think before -- before we start, one of them concerns

14 the -- the tendering of those Zadro statements or the joint statement that

15 you'll recall. We -- we undertook to bring hard copies of that to court;

16 we've got them here and we now just hand those to the Court and to the

17 Prosecutor. As indicated, we will be offering those for tender, but it

18 may be that we can deal with that at the end and not to waste time now.

19 (redacted)

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23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go into the private session, please.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I make -- sorry.

25 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I've been reminded that the document D421, the

21 joint statement that we just admitted should be under seal since there are

22 some names mentioned in that document.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 10

1 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest last night?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll try our best to let you go back home today to

4 spend the weekend in your hometown.

5 Yes, Mr. Morrissey, would you please continue your

6 cross-examination, please.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]

11 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic. Just excuse me one moment,

12 please.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, we just have to find a page reference

14 before we start. Very well.

15 I just want to put to the witness some evidence now, Your Honours,

16 and this is on the 14th of February, 2005, at page 55.

17 Q. Okay. This is in the evidence of the witness Arnautovic,

18 Your Honour.

19 Question at line 4: "Did you return to Grabovica on the 10th of

20 September?

21 "A. Yes.

22 "Q. At approximately what time did you go there appeared who did

23 you go there with?

24 "A. Well, there were -- I don't know. It might have been 9.00 or

25 10.00. I went with Ramiz Delalic. I set out with him.

Page 11

1 "Q. How far did you get?

2 "A. We set out from Jablanica. We arrived at a point -- and we

3 had arrived to a point just before Grabovica. That was the first time he

4 was going there.

5 "Q. At what point did you arrive to? Are you saying you stopped

6 along the way?

7 "A. We were going from Jablanica in the direction of Grabovica by

8 car, but there's a kind of barrier or checkpoint in front of the entrance

9 where there was soldiers. We stopped there and suddenly one of our

10 fighters said that he had found two children, two brothers.

11 "Q. This checkpoint which was in front of the entrance and where

12 there was soldiers, was that a checkpoint that was there on the previous

13 occasions when you'd been between Grabovica and Jablanica?

14 "A. Yes. It was a barrier to prevent men from getting in because

15 there was only this one entrance.

16 "Q. How many soldiers were on this checkpoint?

17 "A. There was some in the house and some at the barrier. There

18 were five or six of them standing there -- staying there, I'm sorry.

19 "Q. Are you saying there was a house near the checkpoint and the

20 house were staying in the house adjacent to the checkpoint.

21 "A. Yes?

22 "Q. Are you able to say from which unit those soldiers were?

23 "A. It was near Adnan Solakovic's and there were a few who

24 were to be in charge of the action and a few of ours. And Cedo's Wolves

25 and the Handzar were there before you came to the checkpoint, and the

Page 12

1 black wolves.

2 "Q. You said a moment ago that somebody had said that he found

3 two children, two brothers. What did he tell you?

4 "A. He said, I found these two brothers in the woods and they say

5 that their grandfather, their grandmother, their mother, their sister had

6 all been killed and they managed to escape.

7 "Q. What was your response and Ramiz Delalic's response to being

8 told this?

9 "A. I know Ramiz well. His response was fierce. He immediately

10 started an investigation to find out what had happened and a who had

11 killed those people."

12 Now, that evidence from Mr. Arnautovic says that you came with him

13 and met the children on the morning of the 10th. Is that true or not?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And he goes on to say, and this is over the page, Your Honours, at

16 page 57 on the 14th of February at line 7 -- well, line 5, actually.

17 "Q. What did you and Ramiz Delalic do with these children after

18 speaking with them?

19 "A. Ramiz lined up the men. He was very angry at the men. He

20 yelled at them and they were all saying, We don't know anything about it,

21 we don't know anything about it. And he was saying, How come you don't

22 know anything about it? He lined up the unit. One of the boys said he

23 could remember the face of the man who killed his family and he would

24 recognise him."

25 So, Mr. Delalic, from that passage that's read out you can see

Page 13

1 that Erdin Arnautovic said the line-up took place on the 10th. Is that

2 true, the line-up took place on the 10th?

3 A. The chronology of the events is important. It's not important

4 what time it was. Nobody after all these years can remember what at

5 happened at exactly what time. What is important, however, is what

6 happened there.

7 Q. What's important, I suggest to you, is that Mr. Arnautovic, like

8 other people, say that the line-up took place on the 10th. You say it

9 took place on the 9th. Is that right?

10 A. I don't know what Mr. Arnautovic claims. I know what happened and

11 what I have told you here.

12 Q. Yes. But isn't it the fact that you knew very well that line-up

13 didn't include a number of soldiers. Correct?

14 A. As I've told you, a lot of soldiers were in Jablanica itself.

15 There was some soldiers who were conducting reconnaissance of the terrain,

16 therefore not all of the soldiers were present.

17 Q. But I put to you that you lined up only 9th Brigade soldiers and

18 not anyone from the other units. Is that true or not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And in fact this line-up, far from being designed to catch the

21 people was actually designed to protect you so you could say you'd done a

22 line-up and you couldn't find the perpetrators. Is that true?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you see Zuka remove any villagers from the village?

25 A. No.

Page 14

1 Q. Did you see Zuka cooperating with the police?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you see Zuka being very upset at the death of his own soldier,

4 Ivica Cavlovic?

5 A. Which soldier did you say?

6 Q. Ivica Cavlovic, a man who had his throat cut?

7 A. Yes, he was upset.

8 Q. And, Mr. Delalic, did you keep the children in the village

9 overnight as bargaining chips in a discussion with Zulfikar Alispago?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Because you have a history of taking hostages, don't you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. On the 26th of October in the Trebevic operation, you knew because

14 of a radio announcement that you had been relieved of your post as deputy

15 commander of the 9th Motorised Brigade. Is that true?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And forces led by the deputy commander of the 1st Corps, Ismet

18 Dahic, besieged you in your headquarters. Is that true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, Ismet Dahic is a person who you've had involvements with

21 since that time as well, isn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But at that time in September and October of 1993, Ismet Dahic was

24 the deputy commander of the 1st Corps underneath Vahid Karavelic. Is that

25 correct?

Page 15

1 A. He was the deputy commander of the corps, subordinated to Vahid

2 Karavelic, yes.

3 Q. On the morning when he came to your headquarters subsequent to you

4 being relieved by presidential order, you caused your soldiers to go house

5 to house and collect civilians and bring them into your headquarters. Is

6 that true?

7 A. That's nonsense.

8 Q. And in that tape that was played to the Court, you threatened to

9 Sefer Halilovic on tape that you would blow yourself and the civilians up,

10 didn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when you finally came to be dealt with for this crime, it was

13 part of the evidence against you that you did gather this group of

14 civilians around you and kept them in your company during the siege.

15 Isn't that right?

16 A. I was acquitted.

17 Q. You were found guilty of insubordination, refusing to obey the

18 order of Dahic and keeping on fighting, despite the order being repeated

19 to you. Correct?

20 A. That's not true.

21 Q. And you ultimately were sentenced to a period of three years or --

22 approximately three years in prison as a result of that insubordination

23 charge. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. But as you told the Prosecutors during an interview, even before

Page 16

1 that sentence was delivered you were told by government officials that you

2 would be the subject of an amnesty. Correct?

3 A. Not correct.

4 Q. You were told, though, weren't you, that you would be the subject

5 of an amnesty. Correct?

6 A. Not correct.

7 Q. Did you tell the Prosecution that?

8 A. I said something else to the Prosecutor.

9 Q. What do you say you said to the Prosecutor?

10 A. I said I'd received a letter from the president of the Presidency,

11 or rather several letters stating that there would be a fair trial first

12 and foremost and that everything would eventually be okay, but there was

13 no talk of amnesty or anything like that.

14 Q. What do you think he meant by "everything would be okay"?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Come on. Have a try, please. What did you think he meant at the

17 time by saying to you "everything would be" --

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did you ask him?

20 A. I have no idea.

21 Q. Just try to remember. Did you ask, "President Izetbegovic, what

22 did you mean by telling me that it would all be okay?"

23 A. I have no idea.

24 Q. And after that time, Mr. Delalic, did you start doing some work

25 for the government, selected jobs, for the government?

Page 17

1 A. Which period of time do you have in mind?

2 Q. After your release from prison in 1994.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Among those jobs did you bug the Croatian embassy?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Well, did you claim -- did you boast in a newspaper article that

7 you had performed exactly that function?

8 A. Possible.

9 Q. Well, the question is: Did you in fact bug the Croatian embassy?

10 A. Maybe I helped bug the Croatian embassy. The simple fact is: I

11 had no access to the Croatian embassy, therefore I would not have been

12 physically in a position to do that.

13 Q. All right. Well, in terms of the help you gave, who was it who

14 gave you the instructions to bug or help to bug the Croatian embassy?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Well, did you say in a newspaper article who it was?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Did you say it was Bakir Alispahic and a number of other

19 individuals?

20 A. I can't remember.

21 Q. You did some work for the organisation AID, as you testified

22 yesterday. Is that correct?

23 A. For a while.

24 Q. Who was the first director of AID?

25 A. It was Kemo Ademovic for a while and he was succeeded by Munir

Page 18

1 Alibabic.

2 Q. Yes, but who was the first commander of that organisation?

3 A. I think for a time it was Bakir Alispahic for a while, but for a

4 very short while.

5 Q. Yes. He was there for only two or three months. Is that correct?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. And then he was removed because of his involvement in the

8 Pogorelica terrorist camp. Is that correct?

9 A. That's possible.

10 Q. And as far as you know, he was removed under the pressure of the

11 American government brought to bear on the Bosnian government. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in fact, he's now facing charges arising out of a plan to kill

15 political opponent Fikret Abdic arising from the time when he was in

16 charge of the AID organisation? Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, he was a pure criminal.

18 Q. Yes. Well, be that as it may -- okay, Mr. Delalic. But anyway,

19 are you involved as a witness in that particular case, the Prosecution

20 against Mr. Alispahic for that matter?

21 A. To do with what?

22 Q. To do with the Fikret Abdic matter. Are you a witness in that

23 case?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Are you a witness in another prosecution concerning

Page 19

1 Mr. Alispahic -- I'll take a step back from that. Are you --

2 A. No, no.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Can we go to private session, please.

4 JUDGE LIU: Can we go to private session, please.

5 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]


3 Q. Okay. Now, in 1996 it's the fact that you spoke to an

4 investigator from The Hague. Is that correct?

5 A. I don't know which year it was that I talked to the investigators.

6 Q. All right. Can you remember the name of the investigator that you

7 spoke to on the first occasion that you dealt with investigators?

8 A. The first time I spoke to someone from the OTP was in Hrasnica. I

9 don't remember the man's name, but I do know that Mr. Sefer Halilovic was

10 present, too. The next time I was interviewed, and the interview was

11 taped, I believe it was in 1998 or thereabouts, and the person I spoke to

12 was Mr. Nikolai.

13 Q. We'll come to Mr. Nikolai in a moment. We're going to deal with

14 the earlier interviews first. Although you can't remember the name of

15 that person, can you recall whether they were dark-haired or blond-haired?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Can you remember whether their name was Mr. Abrribat [phoen] or

18 not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Regis Abrribat?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about Bert or Bart?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Was that meeting tape recorded?

25 A. I wouldn't say.

Page 22

1 Q. Was Sefer Halilovic present when you gave the interview?

2 A. This investigator told Sefer Halilovic to leave the room in which

3 the interview was being conducted.

4 Q. That's okay. But anyway, that interviewer, that person you spoke

5 to, would confirm that Sefer Halilovic was present on the day. Is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes, I'm sure about that.

8 Q. And after that time, you, through a lawyer, wrote a letter

9 indicating that you wished to speak to The Hague investigators and to

10 assist with the investigation. Is that correct?

11 A. Possible.

12 Q. Well, it's not possible; it's the fact, isn't it? You sent a

13 letter to the OTP saying -- you or your representative sent a letter to

14 the OTP saying that you wanted to talk to them to help them with the

15 investigation. Isn't that right?

16 A. It's possible.

17 Q. But one thing's for certain. This was after, and it was to your

18 knowledge this was after, Sefer Halilovic had already made a fuss in the

19 Bosnian press demanding an investigation. Isn't that correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. All right. Well, in due course you were contacted by Mr. Nikolai

22 Mikhailov. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you in fact said to Nikolai Mikhailov that you would provide

25 him with the opportunity to interview a number of witnesses. Correct?

Page 23

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in fact you were the one who were able to provide him with a

3 number of the 9th Brigade people to interview. Is that correct?

4 A. No.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Can we go into the private session, please?

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go into private session.

7 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]


22 Q. I'm going to show you a statement now.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this -- I now indicate we have a

24 number of the statements in binders. As indicated, not every statement

25 that's here is going to be relied upon. Some of them -- it's

Page 26

1 controversial whether they will be or not, but we have copies and we'll

2 hand those to the Prosecutors and to the Court. And in due course, as we

3 refer to them, the witness is entitled to have a copy of that in front of

4 him when we -- as we go one by one.

5 Your Honours, could I indicate this is yet another act of

6 treachery against the e-court system. We think everything's uploaded

7 except for the -- except for the actual statements, which have been

8 provided in another way. Very well.

9 Q. Now --

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, just excuse me one moment, please.

11 Q. All right. Now, I'm just going to identify the statement I want

12 shown to you, Mr. Delalic. All right. It's behind tab number 9 and this

13 is a statement dated 29th of October, 1993.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: I just ask that the witness be shown that, please.

15 All right.

16 So, Your Honours, this is behind tab number 9.

17 Q. Now, do you have in front of you a statement of yours dated 29

18 October, 1993?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. Pardon me. It's not communication, is

21 it.

22 Q. Let me ask it a third time and I apologise for that. So do you

23 have in front of you a statement signed 29th October, 1993?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. On that occasion, did you say this, and this would be

Page 27

1 at probably the second or third sentence of the -- of the statement.

2 "When I came to his office," it's talking about Sefer

3 Halilovic, "when I came to his office he informed me at once that with the

4 agreement of the corps commander I'd been given an order to immediately

5 head out with my unit, which is the size of a small company numbering from

6 90 to 100 men to the Herzegovina area to engage in combat operations with

7 the object of lifting the blockade of Mostar."

8 Now, that's what you said back in 1993. Is that the fact, that it

9 was your job to head out with your unit to the Herzegovina area?

10 A. My apologies. I'm not sure where I can find this portion that

11 you've just read out. I can't find it.

12 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I have perhaps --

13 MR. MORRISSEY: It might be in the wrong order.

14 MS. CHANA: Yes, I think it might be the wrong, counsel, because

15 I -- with my best endeavours I haven't been able to find it either.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, it could be that the witness was given the

17 wrong statement altogether.

18 MS. CHANA: It's not tab 9.

19 JUDGE LIU: What's the ERN number?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: It's behind tab number 11, so we apologise to the

21 Court. And we apologise to Mr. Delalic for getting him to read something

22 that's not right.

23 Q. All right. Do you -- no, you don't have it. Now I try again,

24 Mr. Delalic. Do you have now in front of you a document signed by you

25 dated the 29th of October, 1993?

Page 28

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. All right. I'll put that passage to you again. It's three

3 or four lines from the top. "When I came to his office, he informed me at

4 once that that -- with the agreement of the corps commander, I had been

5 given an order to immediately head out with my unit, which is the size of

6 a small company numbering 90 to 100 men, to the Herzegovina area."

7 Now, was that true, that you were given an order to head out with

8 your unit to the Herzegovina area?

9 A. The 9th Motorised Brigade, or as you choose to call it, "my unit,"

10 received orders to prepare a unit of about 100-strong and send it to

11 Jablanica for combat operations.

12 Q. Yes. But it's not what I choose to call it though, Mr. Delalic.

13 I'm just reading from the statement signed by you. So is that right, that

14 you had received an order to immediately head out with your unit which is

15 the size of a small company numbering from 90 to 100 men? Did you --

16 A. You have those orders and I don't know why you're asking me this.

17 I did not receive an order for me to go out with a company-sized unit and

18 to command that unit. I don't know how this came to be written in this

19 way.

20 Q. Very well. Well, let's press on anyway to the next part.

21 JUDGE LIU: But could we put the English version on the ELMO?

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, of course, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: If they are not confidential material.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, no, it's not. It's acceptable for it to be on

25 the ELMO. Are the copies that we provided to the Court legible or ...

Page 29

1 It would be better for the witness to have his own copy in front

2 of him rather than having to look over at the ELMO, I think, Your Honour.

3 But Your Honour wants the English version?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.


6 Q. Forgive me for a moment, Mr. Delalic, while that's done?

7 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness should have the B/C/S version.


9 JUDGE LIU: And the English version we'll put on the ELMO.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

11 All right, thanks.

12 Q. Now, the next passage I want to put to you is just a couple of

13 lines down from that and I'll read out this part: "Once we reached our

14 first assigned point, Konjic, outside the corps command, we were returned

15 to Bradina, from which we were transferred to Jablanica. In Jablanica I

16 met Zuka in the command."

17 Now, Mr. Delalic, what's written there in a statement signed by

18 you, that's true, isn't it?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Let's turn over the page -- I'm not sure if it's over the page in

21 the Bosnian language -- it's on page 2 of the English. What I'm looking

22 to now is when you got the news of this massacre. And there's a sentence

23 that begins with the words: "As soon as I was informed about this by

24 Nihad." Can you just look and see if you can find that part, and when you

25 find it, just say -- just tell us that you see it, "as soon as I was

Page 30

1 informed about this by Nihad."

2 A. I've found it.

3 Q. Thank you. Well, now I'll read it to you. "As soon as I was

4 informed about this by Nihad, Zuka's deputy, early in the morning that my

5 soldiers and soldiers from the other units had perpetrated the massacre, I

6 personally went to the scene."

7 Now, Mr. Delalic, is it true that you were informed early in the

8 morning by Nihad, Zuka's deputy, about this crime?

9 A. Was I what?

10 Q. Were you informed by Nihad, Zuka's deputy, early in the morning

11 about this crime?

12 A. I was informed about the crime by Nihad, but not early in the

13 morning.

14 Q. Go to the next part. "I personally saw two bodies with entry and

15 exit wounds from a rifle by the Neretva River."

16 Do you see that part?

17 A. I do.

18 Q. You told us yesterday there was no chance of you seeing such a

19 thing. Why is that here in this statement?

20 A. In view of the fact that when I gave that statement, that was

21 several months after the event, and now it's been already 12 years.

22 That's one thing. And the second thing is that I was questioned about

23 this immediately after I was arrested on the 26th of October, 1993. I was

24 interviewed daily for 10 to 15 hours, but prior to being interviewed I was

25 beaten up so badly that I couldn't hold a pen in my hand. There are

Page 31

1 records confirming this that you can check. I wasn't beaten as I was

2 interviewed, but when I was taken to the central prison in Sarajevo I was

3 beaten up so badly that I couldn't hold a spoon in my hand. And after

4 that, I started a hunger strike which went on for 20 days. So this

5 statement that is before us now, I can tell you that it is possible that I

6 stated this, but it is also possible that I didn't state this. People

7 were bringing sheets of paper for me to sign. I was -- I gave this

8 statement under coercion. When the commander of the 10th Mountain Brigade

9 was interviewed, he was beaten up so badly that his hand was dislocated;

10 the same applies to his soldiers. I don't know if you're aware of this.

11 You should be aware of this. You should be aware of just the extent of

12 pressure that we were placed under just for being close to Sefer

13 Halilovic.

14 I'm prepared to continue answering your questions, but I had a

15 duty to inform you of this.

16 Q. Thank you for informing us of this. Can we go to page 4 of this

17 statement -- that's page 4 in the English version, Mr. Delalic. I think

18 it's likely to be -- just excuse me and I'll find the bit where -- it's a

19 passage beginning -- in fairness to you I'll put you what came first. "I

20 don't deny that my soldiers did not participate in other killings; on the

21 contrary, I think they actually did."

22 Do you see that part?

23 A. Is that on page 3?

24 Q. Well, I'll just check and we'll make sure.

25 Because of the timing issues, I'll ask you to look at -- so it's

Page 32

1 page 2 -- I'd like you to look in the middle of page 2, and there's a

2 passage that starts this way -- a passage that starts this way: "That day

3 as I was touring my troops, two children were brought in at approximately

4 1600 hours who had been discovered hiding in a wood nearby."

5 Do you see that part? It's 12 lines from the bottom,

6 approximately?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. So you see that part about seeing the boys at about 1600 hours?

9 You see that part?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Now, that's what you say today, isn't it? You say -- I'm

12 not holding you to 1600 hours, but you say that you saw those boys at some

13 stage in the afternoon who had been discovered hiding in a nearby wood.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. Approximately, yes.

16 Q. Okay. So the interviewers were writing down what you said in that

17 passage, weren't they? They were getting that accurately, weren't they?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. And the next part is: "There were two boys between 9 and 13 years

20 old. I personally asked them where they were from and how they happened

21 to be there."

22 And that's true, isn't it?

23 A. It could be.

24 Q. So these interviewers were writing down correctly what you were

25 telling them at that part. Correct?

Page 33

1 A. Probably.

2 Q. Well, let's move down the page a bit now and come to this part

3 here. "I don't deny that my soldiers did not participate in other

4 killings; on the contrary, I think they actually did, but they were

5 concealing this because they were protecting one another."

6 Do you see that passage?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Well, once again, the interviewers have got that right, haven't

9 they? They've written down what you told them. Correct?

10 A. It is possible that I said that.

11 Q. Well, let's move to the next part I'm interested in. And in

12 fairness to you I'll put in the next part: "I insert that I was incensed

13 by actions of this kind but I was not present on scene with my soldiers

14 when this had been committed."

15 Now, you see that part? Do you see that section?

16 A. I can't find that.

17 Q. Well, you remember I read out a part to you a minute ago --

18 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.

19 Q. "I was incensed." Do you see that bit? And in fairness to you

20 now you said that you were incensed?

21 A. I don't remember this interview. It's possible that I stated

22 that.

23 Q. But that's accurate. According to you, you were incensed and

24 upset. Correct?

25 A. What I stated before this Court is true.

Page 34

1 Q. Well, let's go on. Now, I'm reading -- it's the very next

2 sentence after that. "After the soldiers found out about the boys, they

3 talked about killing them."

4 Now, I'm going to read -- I'm just interrupting now. I'm going to

5 read quite a long passage to you. "After the soldiers found out about the

6 boys they talked about killing them, because they were witnesses to the

7 murder, in order to prevent this becoming known." Full stop. "I wish to

8 note that most of the soldiers from my unit and the other units were in

9 favour of this." Full stop. "Zuka's deputy, Nihad, was also in favour of

10 this. I was determined that the children be protected and I was supported

11 by Zuka, so that we sheltered the children. And I personally drove them

12 by car to Zuka's staff in Jablanica. Thereafter, they spent six or seven

13 days in Zuka's base while combat operations were underway. I later

14 learned that they had some relatives in Jablanica who took them in and

15 they are still there."

16 Now, Mr. Delalic, that's very different to what you've told this

17 Court, isn't it, what's in that passage. You agree with me?

18 A. I agree. What I stated to this Honourable Court is true.

19 Q. I notice there's no mention of Sefer Halilovic in that passage

20 there as being present at or approving of any offer to kill these

21 children. Do you agree with that?

22 A. It doesn't say so anywhere.

23 Q. And if there's one thing that's clear, the people interviewing you

24 were not friends of Sefer Halilovic, were they?

25 A. I don't know about that.

Page 35

1 Q. Well, according to you, all your troubles stem from your

2 association with Sefer Halilovic. Is that correct?

3 A. Correct, correct.

4 Q. And in fact, really, your position is that any claims of trench

5 digging or other crimes against you are exaggerated, but to the extent

6 that you did them it was because Sefer told you to. Is that correct?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. And finally I'd ask you to look at the -- a passage

9 concerning Sefko Hodzic.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: And, Your Honours, this in the English version is

11 on page 5.

12 Q. And the part -- we'll just -- pardon me, Mr. Delalic, I apologise

13 for this. We'll just find the relevant passage for you.

14 Okay. So page 3 is the page in Bosnian, and it's maybe 10, 12

15 lines from the top. You'll see that you're describing actions by Sefko

16 Hodzic and saying that he exaggerated things. And could you -- the

17 sentence I want to start with is one saying: "This was immediately picked

18 up by journalist Sefko Hodzic, who informed the population through the

19 media."

20 Do you see that part?

21 A. I see that.

22 Q. All right. Well, the next part is the part I want to read out to

23 you. I'll read that sentence and then I'll go on. "This was immediately

24 picked up by Sefko Hodzic, who informed the population through the media.

25 At the time the objective of such reports was not clear to me. I thought

Page 36

1 that it was being done because of the negotiations that were underway.

2 However, I now see that other objectives were involved. This had to do

3 with preparations to strengthen Sefer Halilovic's position with military

4 successes and with Zulfikar Alispago as an active participant in

5 commanding these operations being promoted to corps commander instead of

6 Arif Pasalic and Salko Gusic."

7 Now, your claim to this Court previously was that there was a

8 master plan in effect, whereby this operation would be conducted, Sefer's

9 reputation would be restored by the use of Hodzic, and only if that failed

10 would it become necessary to murder Rasim Delic. Do you recall giving

11 that account in court earlier in the week?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But here you are saying in this statement that you only realised

14 later why Sefko Hodzic was exaggerating things. And my question to you

15 is: Have you just made up this master plan that Sefer Halilovic was

16 conducting this operation to get restored, that Hodzic was going to help,

17 and that if all else failed, the Delta Unit would murder Delic? Have you

18 made that up?

19 A. The plan existed, and it was clear to me that certain things had

20 to be done. And all of us were in accord regarding that, that something

21 needed to be done in order for Zulfikar Alispago to be appointed

22 commander. Those two corps were to be joined into one, and their

23 commander was supposed to be Zulfikar Alispago, and Sefer Halilovic's

24 reputation was to be restored. What was not clear to me at the time was

25 that Sefko Hodzic was reporting falsely. When the plan was created, the

Page 37

1 idea was to seize some territory, to do something specifically and not to

2 lie as they reported during this operation, that certain allegations [as

3 interpreted] had been seized and that the roads were cut off and so on.

4 This is what this was about.

5 Q. Now, in 1998 on the 15th of January, 1998, in fact, were you

6 interviewed in Sarajevo by two individuals named Nikolai Mikhailov and a

7 lawyer called Karl Koenig, legal advisor or team 9?

8 A. What dates?

9 Q. The 1st of -- sorry, 15th of January, 1998.

10 A. In 1998, I did have an interview but I don't remember what month

11 it was.

12 Q. Okay. Well, when you were speaking to Nikolai Mikhailov and you

13 were interviewed by him, you were asked a question about an article that

14 you had -- or an interview you'd given to the weekly magazine Dani, such a

15 magazine being printed on the 21st of October, 1997. And I just want to

16 read something from the interview with -- with the Prosecutors here.

17 Were you asked this question by Nikolai Mikhailov and did you give this

18 answer?

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this is at page 4 of the transcript

20 provided by the Prosecutors to us of that interview.

21 Q.

22 "Q. I would like you now to tell me about an incident you

23 described in your interview given to the weekly Dani, which was published

24 on the 21st of October, 1997, please, Mr. Delalic?"

25 And you said: "The interview I gave to the magazine Dani I gave

Page 38

1 only to -- I gave only from the reason to start to write but only the

2 truth and not to write the things that they've written in other

3 newspapers. My intention was to challenge the participants of that event

4 in Grabovica, to make them speak as well, and to tell everything they know

5 about the happenings in Grabovica."

6 Now, it's true you were asked that question and you gave that

7 answer in the interview with Nikolai Mikhailov. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. And there was then further questioning about that.

10 You were asked by Karl Koenig: "Is it correct that at the outset you were

11 responsible in some way for the massacre in Grabovica?"

12 The interpreter missed it and then you said: "No."

13 And then Karl Koenig asked it again. He said: "Can I just repeat

14 that because I'm not sure that I think you understood what I meant. As I

15 understand in the press and in the media people were blaming you for what

16 happened in Grabovica."

17 And you replied: "In certain media, but in Croatian media certain

18 media accused me a few times that I was responsible directly or

19 indirectly."

20 Karl Koenig went on to say: "The article you wrote, is that a

21 response to those allegations?"

22 You said: "Not only to those allegations but also in certain

23 independent media in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the same sayings were

24 published. And where few times beside other names, my name was mentioned

25 as well."

Page 39

1 And Koenig said: "The Grabovica incident" -- no, sorry, he's gone

2 on to another questions and I'll stop. All right. Those questions about

3 the Dani article, you were asked those questions and gave those answers to

4 that -- to the interviewers in that interview. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Could you now be --

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness now be shown behind tab number 5

8 in the folder the Dani article.

9 Your Honours, I should indicate that we -- because we're putting

10 this document to the witness, we took the liberty of getting a letter from

11 the person who took that article, who is now the editor of that magazine.

12 We can produce that if needs be.

13 Q. Just before we come to that article there, I've just got another

14 question. You indicated earlier on that you -- that you had possibly sent

15 a letter to the Prosecutors offering assistance. Isn't it the fact that

16 that offer of assistance was made through a lawyer of yours, Mr. --

17 Attorney Ahmed Zilic. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Yes. And so that offer was made on the 4th of October, 1999. Is

20 that correct?

21 A. It's possible. I don't remember the date.

22 Q. No. But it was after that interview that you'd had with Karl

23 Koenig and Nikolai Mikhailov that that offer of assistance was made. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. I don't remember.

Page 40

1 Q. You made the offer of assistance to the Prosecutor, knowing full

2 well you were a suspect in this matter. Correct?

3 A. This is nonsense.

4 Q. Very well. Very well. Well, I'll just get a few questions before

5 we break concerning this document here. Could we just go to -- all right.

6 You see you've got three columns in front of you in front of that

7 newspaper thing? No smiling, please.

8 A. You mean in the newspapers or what?

9 Q. I mean in the newspaper, the middle one.

10 Okay. Do you see this passage here: "I took about 120

11 soldiers" --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "When we arrived in Jablanica, we were met by Rifat Bilajac, Zicro

14 Suljevic, Zuka who was the command of the Supreme Command Staff, the

15 special purposes detachment at the time, Vehbija Karic, and a few other

16 people. I handed over the unit immediately, and after that I was at a

17 meeting in order to agree who was going to provide logistical support for

18 our soldiers."

19 Do you see that passage I've just read out?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, that's very different to your evidence now, because now you

22 say you didn't go with them but you went to Konjic. So, can I put this

23 proposition to you again. This stay over in Konjic at Mr. Halilovic or

24 Mr. Habibi's house is an intervention later on to distance yourself even

25 more from Grabovica. Do you agree with that?

Page 41

1 A. No.

2 Q. Because this is what you told the interviewer, isn't it? The

3 words that I've just read out, they're your words, aren't they?

4 A. A journalist published this interview before asking me whether I

5 agreed with what is stated here. So journalists come, interview, and the

6 regular practice is not to show me what he was going to publish. They

7 just formulate the text themselves. It is not true that I stated this the

8 way it is printed here. I spoke about the general chronology. I did not

9 necessarily state precisely this to the journalist.

10 Q. Well, when you say "he did what he wanted," this journalist was a

11 woman, correct? Vildana Selimbegovic, is that right?

12 A. I did not say he did what he wanted. But normally when one gives

13 an interview the usual practice would be to show the interview to the

14 person who was interviewed so that that person can check that. However,

15 that is not usually done in our country. The journalists normally insert

16 their own opinions and so on so that what is actually published is

17 generally not what the person who was interviewed stated.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I know it's the time, but I just

19 want to persist for five minutes, if I might, because it links with

20 something here.

21 Q. Let's go on to the next part here. You then go on -- it then says

22 this. "The meeting was chaired" -- and you will recall we just stopped at

23 a point where we were discussing -- where you were discussing a meeting

24 about logistical support and you then go on to give these details: "The

25 meeting was chaired by Vehbija Karic. He was then a member of the General

Page 42

1 Staff. The chief of administration, Rifat Bilajac, was also a member of

2 the General Staff." And there's some other details I won't worry about,

3 and then we go on to this: "It was re-confirmed at that meeting that Zuka

4 would be the axis commander. The meeting was also attended by other

5 commanders who were tasked with bringing their units to Jablanica to take

6 part in the operation. The goal of the operation was assistance to

7 Mostar. So also there were Adnan Solakovic, Mujo Beglerbegovic, a

8 commander from Dreznica, Enes Kovacevic, the Jablanica commander, the

9 commander of Celo's Wolves, commander of the Igman Wolves, the commander

10 of the Handzar division, Dzeki. Logistics was the only thing discussed at

11 this meeting. After this, I went to Konjic. On Zuka's and on Vehbija

12 Karic's orders, my units were billeted with the other units in the

13 Grabovica sector."

14 Now, that's very different from the evidence you're giving today,

15 isn't it, Mr. Delalic?

16 A. Well, there are certain discrepancies, but the essence is true.

17 Q. No, but it reveals, doesn't it, Mr. Delalic, that you are offering

18 a false claim that you didn't go down to Jablanica, in order to pretend

19 that you didn't know where the troops were being billeted and to distance

20 yourself from the crime. Is that correct?

21 A. No.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: That might be the right moment, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at five

24 minutes past 11.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

Page 43

1 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Thank you once again, Mr. Delalic. Do you have the newspaper

5 there in front of you still?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Well, I've finished putting that passage to you

8 concerning Jablanica and then going to Konjic. Now, I want you to move a

9 few lines down from that. Do you see there's a part where you say that

10 Vehbija Karic poured petrol on the flames? The sentence begins: "As I

11 was told later, Vehbija Karic poured petrol on the fire."

12 I think it's -- if I could just hold up, I think it might be --

13 A. Yes, I see that.

14 Q. Okay. Well, it's a sentence after that, though, that I'm

15 interested in and it reads like this: "As for me, two days later I got a

16 call from Zuka to go back to Jablanica urgently."

17 Now, that's very different to what you're telling the -- telling

18 the Court now, isn't it, Mr. Delalic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And isn't it the fact that your story in court now is really a

21 very new story?

22 A. I did explain a while ago, but I'll say it again. Newspaper

23 interviews are usually not authorised where I come from. An interview is

24 drawn up and then the journalist in theory should go back to me and ask me

25 to authorise it, but this interview was not never authorised. I had an

Page 44

1 argument with this lady journalist after this was published. In

2 publishing this interview, she made a number of errors and she added some

3 things of her own accord. All in all, if you go through this interview,

4 in essence it talks about everything that this Tribunal is interested in.

5 Q. Very well. I'm just going to read a letter to you.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I just circulate copies, please, to the

7 Prosecutors and to the Court? Your Honours, this is an English-language

8 letter and it was written to us in English and I want to put it to the

9 witness now. This is a document dated May the 3rd at Sarajevo -- May the

10 3rd, 2005, at Sarajevo. On the letterhead of Dani, and it's from Vildana

11 Selimbegovic, editor-in-chief of Dani.

12 Q. And before I ask you this question, it's the fact, isn't it, that

13 this Dani interviewer not only is Ms. Selimbegovic, the editor nowadays of

14 Dani, but she was also the author of this interview with you. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Well, this is what she says. "First of all, I am

18 surprised by the nature of your request. Dani is a magazine of some

19 standing in Bosnia and Herzegovina, renowned for accuracy and credibility

20 of its reporting. Therefore, the content of the interview with Mr. Ramiz

21 Delalic truly reflects our conversation. As far as tapes or notes related

22 to that interview are concerned, I regret to inform you that I no longer

23 have them in my possession. Sincerely, Vildana Selimbegovic,

24 editor-in-chief of Dani." Now, Mr. Delalic, can I just put this to you.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: And, Your Honours, I make it clear I offer this

Page 45

1 document for tender. There's a number of these, there's two others from

2 yesterday and there's a couple more coming. I'll have to be -- the best

3 thing is if they're dealt with all as a group, but I'll make it clear I'm

4 going to offer for tender. It's one of the things that will have to be

5 dealt with at the end.

6 Q. But in any event, Mr. Delalic, the fact is whether or not you came

7 back and checked the contents and dealt with them at a later time, it's

8 still the fact that what she put in here, what Ms. Selimbegovic put in

9 here, was your words, isn't it?

10 A. I'm talking about authorising an interview. In this case, it was

11 simply never done. What follows is that I simply disagree with the

12 greatest part of this interview. It is a common practice for an interview

13 to be authorised, after all.

14 Q. Are you suggesting seriously that a journalist would deliberately

15 misrepresent Ramiz Delalic on an important matter like this?

16 A. No, but I am convinced that the tapes are still around; I am

17 certain. They have their own archive, after all. When she says that the

18 tapes have not been preserved, I somehow find that very difficult to

19 believe.

20 Q. Very well. Well, that letter can be returned please?

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, we need to assign a number to it so that we

22 could treat it.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honours, could we assign a number also

24 to the Dani article, which I'm going to offer for tender. Your Honours, I

25 offer the Dani article for tender as well, we'll deal with that at the

Page 46

1 end, too, but it's a different category of statements. Your Honours have

2 indicated to me that you don't want statements to be tendered, and that

3 it's appropriate to read them into the transcript. As long as the

4 Prosecutor doesn't dispute their accuracy then they can form a basis for

5 submissions later. And I accept that. But the newspaper is in a

6 different category, of course, and so I offer that for tender. Let's

7 press ahead now, in any event --

8 THE REGISTRAR: The Dani article dated 24 October 1997 will be MFI

9 422 and the correspondence from the editor-in-chief of Dani will be MFI

10 432.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you just so that we keep a grip on this, may

12 I inquire of the Court staff whether we have a number for those other two

13 letters that were offered yesterday?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Morrissey, the letter signed by SR Cesko

15 dated 29 April 2005 will be MFI 424, and the letter signed by Sadika

16 Omerbegovic dated the 15th of May, 2005, will be MFI 425.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for that assistance.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, we then move to this -- the next section where

19 you say -- I've just read to you the part where you said: "As for me I

20 got a call two days later from Zuka to go back to Jablanica urgently."

21 And it then goes on like this: "He told me that a massacre had

22 occurred. He and I got in a Jeep and we set off to Grabovica together.

23 There I learned the details from my company commander, Malco Rovcanin."

24 Now, let me ask you this: Did you learn the details from Malco

25 Rovcanin or not?

Page 47

1 A. It's possible, but I can't remember specifically who told me about

2 the massacre and killing of civilians.

3 Q. Well, now, Malco Rovcanin and you both fought bravely in the war

4 for many months in Sarajevo and you were close. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what I'm asking you is was Malco Rovcanin there when you got

7 down to Grabovica with Zuka?

8 A. I'm not sure about the chronology of these events. I'm not sure

9 when exactly Malco was there and I can't say anything about that. At any

10 rate, I went to Grabovica with Zuka. I'm not sure if Malco had preceded

11 us. I'm just not sure. I don't know.

12 Q. Let's move down to the next paragraph. It begins: "When Zuka and

13 I got back to his base."

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, it says this: "When Zuka and I got back to his base, he

17 informed his superiors in my presence. I was present in person when

18 Vehbija gave the order for checkpoints to be set up in front of and behind

19 Grabovica so that no one could find out about the massacre."

20 Now, that's a different person giving the order to the one you

21 blame in court now, isn't it, which is Sefer Halilovic. Do you agree with

22 that?

23 A. This is taken out of context. It's not the context that I was

24 talking about. The axis where Zuka was in charge and all the other axes

25 had assistant commanders under Sefer Halilovic or members of the Main

Page 48

1 Staff. And Vehbija was the assistant commander of Zuka's axis and Vehbija

2 was a member of the Main Staff, and Sefer gave an order to Vehbija and

3 Vehbija in turn gave an order to Zuka.

4 Q. But you left out the part concerning Sefer out of this section

5 here, didn't you?

6 A. I told you that this was taken out of context, what I said. The

7 journalist wrote this as she saw fit.

8 Q. There's also a little box with a graphic darkening of the text

9 where Vehbija Karic has been interviewed and gives an account. Do you see

10 that? It might be quite hard to read. I'm not sure because the copy we

11 have is a bad one and you may have been given a bad one as well. Do you

12 see that part with Karic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. All right. Well, I'll take you to one part of it and

15 I'll -- if you can't read it you tell us but there's a part in the

16 middle -- I'm probably going to take you to the whole thing, I'm sorry,

17 which I will do. Okay, did Karic say in that interview as

18 follows: "There were no problems at all with the billeting. When I

19 inspected the soldiers, they were happy, having a barbecue, eating grapes.

20 They were billeted there because the axis where they would be used was

21 nearby. There was no motive of adverse situation. I had agreed the

22 billeting earlier on with the locals."

23 Do you see that section?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that's true, isn't it, that the billeting had been agreed upon

Page 49

1 between Karic and the local people?

2 MS. CHANA: Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

4 MS. CHANA: In respect of what Mr. Karic says in a newspaper, I

5 don't think this witness is in a position to answer. This is what

6 Mr. Karic says in his interview in the same newspaper article.

7 JUDGE LIU: I don't know -- I don't know. If the witness was

8 around at that time or not, he might know or not. But you give a very

9 clear hint to this witness how to answer this question, Ms. Chana.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm sure that would not have been

11 intended in the least. But anyway, I still will ask the question in any

12 event.

13 Q. Sorry, Mr. Delalic, you will have to forgive me. Well, what's the

14 answer? Do you know the answer to that question or not?

15 A. I was not in Grabovica when Vehbija Karic visited. I don't know

16 what he said on that occasion. I don't know anything about the billeting,

17 but I know because soldiers told me later about that one sentence he said.

18 I didn't hear it myself, but most of the soldiers did, what he said about

19 throwing Croats into the lake.

20 Q. Well, look, this story about throwing Croats into the lake, I put

21 to you that was a lie told by Musa Hota to Malco Rovcanin, who passed it

22 on to you, and that later on it became used as an excuse. Isn't that

23 true?

24 A. What I know is that there were many soldiers there who heard this.

25 I don't want to discuss the authenticity of this statement now, and you

Page 50

1 have other witnesses who will either confirm or deny this. What I can say

2 is that I wasn't there myself. Therefore I can't say anything about it.

3 Q. Very well. Now, could I ask you to go over to -- to -- just

4 excuse me, I'll just find the part that we need. Sorry. What we're

5 looking for is a part concerning -- it says: "I also know that

6 President Izetbegovic demanded that the operation be halted."

7 We'll just find it -- you might find it before us.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: The Prosecution are ahead of us and we think it's

9 on page 4 of the Bosnian.

10 Q. Mr. Delalic, I -- we can show you. If you just look, here it

11 is -- mind you those photographs -- well, while you're looking at that,

12 can I confirm those photographs are photographs taken of you at the time

13 of the interview, aren't they?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Do you have that section? "I know that

16 President Izetbegovic demanded that the operation be halted."

17 A. No. I'm not sure where that is.

18 Q. Do you see where the hole-punched part is on the left side.

19 Sorry, Mr. Delalic, just to be clear, it's -- okay.

20 Now, do you see there that you've said: "I also know that

21 President Izetbegovic demanded that the operation be halted." "Zuka

22 ripped up that order in my presence."

23 Do you see that?

24 A. I really can't see that.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the Madam Court Usher help me for one

Page 51

1 second, please. I don't know, perhaps the witness has been given the

2 wrong page or if we have got him on the wrong page. Could this just be

3 passed to the witness to -- maybe this will help.

4 Q. Mr. Delalic, I'm just going to give you a part where it's marked

5 in green. That's the part where we want.

6 A. Yes, I had the wrong page. These pages have different

7 photographs. I can see it now.

8 Q. Well, now, your position in the past used to be that Zuka ripped

9 up an order by President Izetbegovic. But now in this court what you say

10 is that Halilovic and Zuka ripped up an order from Rasim Delic. That's

11 the fact, isn't it?

12 A. What I said before this Honourable Trial Chamber is that

13 Mr. Sefer Halilovic crumpled the order and Zuka was the one who ripped it

14 up.

15 Q. Yes, but we're focussing on something different to that. We're

16 focussing on the fact that in the past you said that it was an order from

17 Izetbegovic. Now, you're claiming to have seen a specific document,

18 namely Exhibit 157, the supposed order from Rasim Delic. And what I'm

19 asking you is: Why did you tell this journalist that it was an order from

20 President Izetbegovic?

21 A. I didn't give anyone's name at all at the time, not the

22 president's name, not the army commander's name. I just said that there'd

23 been an order from the supreme command to halt the operation, but I didn't

24 name any names.

25 Q. Okay. Now, did you provide as well to this journalist access to

Page 52

1 or contact with the following people, who then spoke to the magazine:

2 Erdin Arnautovic, Elvedin Husic, a couple of others, one with a wrong

3 name, but I'll come to that in a minute. Erdin Arnautovic, do you see

4 that -- I'll find you the part just so you don't have any confusion. It

5 should be the top of page 4 on the left-hand corner, the top left-hand

6 corner of page 4. Sorry --

7 A. Yes, I see that.

8 Q. That's Erdin Arnautovic and that's the same Erdin Arnautovic that

9 we've already asked some questions about. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And you put this -- how did -- can you just explain: Did

12 you provide a statement from Erdin Arnautovic to the journalist or did you

13 arrange for the journalist to speak personally to Erdin Arnautovic?

14 A. No, no. No way. I didn't. She knows these people herself. She

15 interviewed whoever she was able to reach at the time. Many of the

16 soldiers were not in Sarajevo at the time, among those who had been in

17 Grabovica. She interviewed all those who still resided in Sarajevo, but

18 it certainly wasn't through an act of intervention on my part.

19 Q. All right. We'll go now to -- but even so, it was still the fact,

20 wasn't it, that Erdin Arnautovic was a good friend of yours at that time,

21 as he still is today. Correct?

22 A. Well, we're no longer friends. I haven't been in touch with him

23 for over two months. We even quarrelled. If you look at this interview,

24 you see that it's Ramiz Delalic being interviewed, but other people are

25 being used for the benefit of the interview. She used other people's

Page 53

1 statements, even Zuka's statement, and some other people, too. If you

2 look at this, you can tell that this is not only my statement. She

3 published things that were said by other people, by Zuka, by Vehbija

4 Karic, and what have you.

5 Q. You're quite right about that. In fact, she puts it in quotation

6 marks, from Erdin Arnautovic. Shall I ask you: Did you quarrel with

7 Erdin Arnautovic because of the evidence he gave here?

8 A. Come on. I was not in touch with him prior to my testimony. It's

9 sheer nonsense. I don't think this is something we should go into at all.

10 It was an acquaintance. It was not a friendship in the proper sense of

11 the word. We were in the same war. We fought together, and there's a

12 variety of ways you can refer to people like that, a fellow soldier, a

13 fellow fighter.

14 Q. Well, then, now, can you go to the next entry, Elvedin Husic, a

15 soldier. Do you see that passage?

16 A. Which page that.

17 Q. It should be on the same page. It's on the same page. I think --

18 Mr. Delalic, I think it's about there. If you look in this direction --

19 A. Yes, I see that.

20 Q. Now, Elvedin Husic was a person who at that time in 1997 was in

21 fact actually a co-accused of yours in an indictment concerning alleged

22 racketing of Daut Basovic, an indictment which I should point out, you

23 were not found guilty of it. But nevertheless it's the fact that you were

24 co-accused with Husic. Correct?

25 A. What I know about Daut Basovic and Husic is that Daut Basovic

Page 54

1 offered 12.000 marks to Elvedin Husic not to give the statement he was

2 supposed to give before the court. You must be aware of this.

3 Q. And go to the next one there. Do you see there's a person

4 referred to as Fikret Hajrovic who was the commander's escort. Do you see

5 that?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. Okay. Now, in reality, the commander's escort was Fikret Kajevic.

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Whose escort?

10 Q. The commander's escort -- well, sorry, perhaps I'll ask you this:

11 He was your escort, wasn't he, at the time of the Grabovica matters?

12 A. Well, no, he was not an escort. Only sometimes would he escort

13 the commander, or rather the deputy commander, but not on all occasions.

14 Q. Well, I'm not -- these words are not attributed to you, this

15 Fikret Hajrovic was the commander's escort, so I'm not putting to you

16 whether that's got anything to do with whether you were the commander or

17 not at all. What I want to put to you is what this individual supposedly

18 said. "We went to Jablanica with the soldiers and Zuka met us there. As

19 soon as he took charge of the company he said that he would take care of

20 everything and that Ramiz didn't need to worry about anything. I went to

21 Konjic with Ramiz in order to obtain some MTS which we meant to transport

22 to Sarajevo."

23 Now, let me just ask you straight-out as a matter of fact. Is

24 that true? Did you in fact go to Jablanica and then go to Konjic later on

25 with Fikret Kajevic?

Page 55

1 A. You see, the name itself, Fikret Hajrovic, the name stated in this

2 statement reflects just how careful this journalist was when drafting this

3 text. The name that she put here, Fikret Hajrovic, does not exist. She

4 probably meant Fikret Kajevic. Now, what is stated I really can't tell

5 you anything about that. That is his statement alone.

6 Q. Yes. Well, can you tell me whether Fikret Kajevic gave his real

7 name to the journalist?

8 A. Definitely yes, certainly.

9 Q. So you've spoken to him about it then?

10 A. I didn't speak to him about anything. It is stated here "Fikret

11 Hajrovic," that's the name in the case. I don't know that person.

12 Perhaps that person exists, but I don't know him. That person was never

13 an escort of mine. If this is indeed Fikret Hajrovic then I don't know

14 the person and I don't know who could have stated something like this.

15 Q. I want to take you to another document now -- sorry, we're just

16 going to give the proper number. This is a statement made to the cantonal

17 court in Sarajevo on the 2nd of December, 1998, and it's -- excuse me,

18 pardon me, it's behind tab 10, Your Honours.

19 Okay. This is a document that's -- yes -- it's behind tab 10.

20 Perhaps just show us that one. Okay. Do you have in front of you a

21 record of witness interview dated the 2nd of December, 1998, before the

22 investigative judge of the cantonal court in Sarajevo?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And on that occasion is the investigative judge listed as being

25 Ibrahim Hadzic and is the recording clerk Edina Djudjevic [phoen]?

Page 56

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what appears at the bottom on the left, Ramiz Delalic and on

3 subsequent pages. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Very well. Would you please turn over to the first page of the

6 text itself. Now, the first passage I want to take you to you will see

7 that you say this: "The unit from my brigade was transferred from

8 Hrasnica to the Herzegovina area, but I did not go with the soldiers on

9 that occasion."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. We'll try to find it for you. It may be 11 or 12 lines

13 from the top.

14 A. I see it now.

15 Q. "I did not go with the soldiers on that occasion."

16 Okay. Now, there's some more information there which we can go to

17 if we need to, but would you go down a bit further and say -- and look at

18 this: "Malco Rovcanin" -- it's a bit lengthy, but I think I better take

19 you to the whole thing, so go back to where you were. "I would like to

20 point out that before the units went out to the front at Herzegovina, a

21 single unit was formed out of the unit from the 9th Motorised Brigade, the

22 2nd Independent Battalion, and the 10th Mountain Brigade, to which were

23 appointed the company commanders and the battalion commander who commanded

24 the entirely newly formed unit."

25 Now, do you see that passage?

Page 57

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And you go on to say: "I cannot recall now the name of the

3 man who commanded this entire newly formed unit, but I know that Malco

4 Rovcanin was the commander of the company in this overall unit which was

5 formed from my unit."

6 Now, I want to stop there for a minute. First of all, your

7 account in this court has been that Sefer Halilovic was not present at

8 Hrasnica. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So who was it who appointed this battalion commander?

11 A. Which battalion?

12 Q. The one that you refer to here, the one where you say --

13 A. Vahid Karavelic was the one who appointed the battalion commander,

14 made up of the Sarajevo units, and he was the commander of the 1st Corps.

15 Q. We've got a problem here because he came to this court and said

16 that he didn't. Have you got a very clear memory that a battalion

17 commander was appointed at all?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was that battalion commander?

20 A. Senad Pecar.

21 Q. All right. Well, let's proceed. Was Malco Rovcanin appointed as

22 a company commander within this battalion that you've referred to, to go

23 down to Herzegovina?

24 A. I stated then -- or rather, I speculated then and I still am

25 speculating about the company commander. I am still speculating, because

Page 58

1 to this day I don't know who was appointed company commander.

2 Q. Well, the difficulty with that is that what you said in the

3 statement is: "I know that Malco Rovcanin was the commander of that

4 company."

5 My question is: Why did you say that in the statement?

6 A. The problem with this statement is that I asked, or rather I got

7 into an argument with the judge because I wanted the words as I uttered

8 them to be recorded. I wanted them to be recorded directly as I uttered

9 them. I wanted the court reporter to record my words, not judge's words.

10 And the judge made his own account and had those words recorded; this is

11 why we got into a row. I claimed then as I continue to claim to this day

12 that I truly don't know who was appointed the company commander. And

13 that's all I can tell you.

14 Q. Well, it may be not all you can tell us because the date of this

15 statement here is 2nd of December, 1998, whereas the date of your quarrel

16 with Judge Hadzic was in April of the following year, wasn't it, and we'll

17 tendered that into evidence, that indictment where -- sorry, that

18 judgement where you got in trouble for playing up in court, effectively.

19 The conduct on that occasion was on a different date. What do you

20 remember about that?

21 A. I did not create any incident in the court. I simply wanted my

22 own words to be recorded, not the judge's words. And this is exactly what

23 I told the judge in the courtroom. Perhaps you are a judge but you know

24 nothing about the army matters and the orders. This is why I wanted my

25 own words as I uttered them to be recorded.

Page 59

1 Q. But you've misunderstood what I'm putting to you. The time when

2 you got angry with the judge was on a different date, Mr. Delalic. This

3 time, here, we're talking about the 2nd of December, 1998. So I'll ask

4 you the question again. Why was it that it's said in this statement, not

5 the one when you had a fight with the judge but this one here on the 2nd

6 of December, does it say that you know that Malco Rovcanin was the

7 commander of the company?

8 A. As I've told you, I suggested to the judge that my own words ought

9 to be recorded, not his words, addressed to the court reporter.

10 Q. All right. Well, in the light of that, then why is your signature

11 on the document?

12 A. I didn't even take a look at what is written here. I signed it

13 without reading. What you are stating here are simply the matters that

14 you are interested in. And what this Court should be interested in, which

15 are stated here, should be true. I can't remember all of the details

16 because it's been 12 years and I continue to affirm that I still do not

17 know who was the company commander. If I stated then that it was Malco

18 Rovcanin, that means that that was my best guess at the time. But I

19 cannot claim with any certainty whether it was him or not. I don't

20 consider this to be relevant at all and I don't see why you keep insisting

21 on this.

22 Q. The reason I'm insisting on it is because I want to find out why

23 it is that these words are there on this page, on a page which is signed

24 by you, and that's why I'm asking you the question. And the first

25 question is: If you did not want to sign that page, you would not have

Page 60

1 signed it. Isn't that correct?

2 A. You see, during both interviews I got into an argument with the

3 judge because he made sure that his words were recorded and not my words.

4 Q. Yes, but I understand what you say about that. But we come back

5 to this: You were -- you signed the bottom of the page and what I want to

6 ask you, perhaps, is: Was your lawyer, Mr. Karkin, present when you

7 signed the bottom of that page?

8 A. I don't know whether he was present. All I know is that this

9 particular judge was later replaced. And now he doesn't practice law

10 anymore precisely because of this reason and others, similar ones.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, look -- all right, you want to make comments

12 like that, let me ask you a question. Mr. Karkin here, who you're with

13 here, did he ever supply guns to you while you were in the 9th Brigade?

14 A. Mr. Karkin?

15 Q. Yes, yes.

16 A. I don't remember, sir.

17 Q. Well, did you make a statement telling -- in 1993 telling the

18 investigators that very fact, that he'd given guns in exchange for his

19 children being placed in the logistics company of your 9th Brigade?

20 A. It's possible, but I don't remember that.

21 Q. Well, you can remember that --

22 MS. CHANA: Yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

24 MS. CHANA: Perhaps the relevance of this could be stated by

25 learned counsel as to --

Page 61

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's reasonable.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I'm happy to state the relevance of it.

3 It's a question entirely for the Court whether Mr. Delalic and Mr. Karkin

4 want to remain in court while I give the answer to it. But unless

5 somebody says they should go, I'll now commence to give the answer.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could save this part of the questions

7 at a later stage or at the beginning of the next sitting.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour, that's a good idea.

9 Yes, well, I won't persist with that any further right now.

10 Well, I've got one question, I think, arising from that.

11 Q. You see, Mr. Karkin --

12 MR. MORRISSEY: I'll demonstrate the relevance. I'll deal with it

13 now, Your Honour.

14 Q. Mr. Karkin was present with you when you were interviewed by

15 Nikolai, is that correct, Nikolai Mikhailov?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Karkin was present with you when you were interviewed by the

18 Prosecutors down in Sarajevo in November 2004. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Karkin was present with you during one entire day of your

21 proofing session here in The Hague. Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Mr. Karkin was present --

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Can we go into private session, please?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go into private session, please.

Page 62

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

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Page 63

1 (redacted)

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3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]


19 Q. Let me put this proposition, though, the account you've given in

20 court today -- sorry, over this week is an account that you have been

21 rehearsing for years in order to protect yourself for covering up the

22 crime at Grabovica. Is that correct?

23 A. As you mentioned just a minute ago, I wrote to The Hague Tribunal

24 while Madam Arbour was still here. I wrote a letter to them then, and it

25 was on that occasion that I said that, if needed, I would come to The

Page 64

1 Hague and would be held accountable. What you're saying, that I practiced

2 and rehearsed this is something that you are claiming. There are many

3 other witnesses who can corroborate what I've been saying.

4 Q. Yes. Well, Nikolai Mikhailov would be one such witness, wouldn't

5 he?

6 A. I don't know what he could testify about.

7 Q. Well, did you take the opinion -- did you hold the opinion,

8 Mr. Delalic, that you were safer inside the investigation rather than

9 outside it?

10 A. I don't understand the question.

11 Q. Very well. All right. Let's move down that page further -- or

12 while I move down that page, just excuse me a moment, please, I just want

13 to find where I was.

14 [Defence counsel confer]


16 Q. So anyway, I was asking you about Malco Rovcanin and now I wish to

17 go on a little bit further down the page. Since we diverted on to the

18 Mr. -- on to other matters. Do you have that spot there where we

19 were. "I know that Malco Rovcanin was the commander of the company."

20 Do you see that? It was where we were before. Do you have that?

21 A. It says here: "Malco Rovcanin, as the commander of the company

22 within my unit."

23 Is that what you have in mind?

24 Q. Yes, that's good. Okay. So let's read that sentence. "Malco

25 Rovcanin as the commander from my unit and the other units from this newly

Page 65

1 formed unit went to the Herzegovina front together with the soldiers while

2 I remained in Sarajevo and set off for this front only two days after the

3 soldiers had been sent. I did not have to go on the same day as the

4 soldiers because there was no need for that. Two days later, as I said, I

5 left Sarajevo together with Adnan Solakovic and I stopped in Konjic while

6 Adnan Solakovic continued the journey to Jablanica with the unit."

7 Now, you see that passage I've just read out?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, that's nothing like what you say in court now, is it?

10 A. In view of the fact that I was apprehended and was in the custody

11 when I was interviewed, I didn't go there voluntarily. I was taken into

12 custody by the police and taken to the court. Judge Hadzic told me that

13 he sent several notices and summonses for me to appear. I didn't know

14 about that, but he said that there was several such notices. And on that

15 day, I was brought in by the police. And as I've already told you,

16 immediately at the beginning I had an argument with the judge because the

17 police picked me up early in the morning and then kept me for hours in

18 some room before the judge was able to interview me, which they were not

19 authorised to do at all. Therefore, I don't know anything about this

20 statement. I don't even remember stating something like this. What I

21 wish to say is that I came to the court unprepared. And actually, what I

22 stated here before this Honourable Chamber is true.

23 Q. Yes. But what I want to put to you is that when you came to court

24 on that occasion you just had a different false story that you wanted to

25 tell and you told it. Do you agree with that?

Page 66

1 A. I don't know what you're talking about. What false story?

2 Q. Well, let's press on. You said that -- I'll just summarise the

3 next passage. You said you came down from Konjic to Jablanica for a

4 couple of different reasons. And then you said this: "Actually, I also

5 came to Jablanica because of weapons that I had ordered earlier from

6 Zulfikar Alispago, so I came to see what was going on with those weapons."

7 Now, that's consistent with what you're saying in court here

8 today, isn't it?

9 A. Could be.

10 Q. So the judge got that part of what you told him right, didn't he?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And just to be clear about this, are you sure it's not -- are you

13 really sure that you were going to buy weapons from Zulfikar at the very

14 time when he was about to launch an offensive in the Vrdi area with an

15 army that was pretty light armed for weapons?

16 A. What you're asking me about now is something that is currently

17 investigated in the proceedings before the municipal court in Sarajevo.

18 So you can ask information from that court. I affirm that I didn't go to

19 see only Zuka about weaponry. I also went to Konjic for that reason. And

20 as I've already said, there is information that -- there are documents

21 that can corroborate that with the court and also there is the statement

22 that Zuka gave to the court.

23 Q. Well, Mr. Delalic, neither tapes, statements, other proceedings,

24 or any other such things prevent you from answering my question. Now, my

25 question is -- and I'll put it a bit differently just so we don't bear

Page 67

1 cross-purposes. My question is: Haven't you just made up as a false

2 story, this account that you were going down to Jablanica to check up on

3 an arms purchase from Zuka?

4 A. That's not true.

5 Q. Because it's true that Zuka was just about to involve himself in

6 a -- significant combat activities in the Vrdi-Dreznica area. Correct?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Well, now, come on. You do know because you've claimed that you

9 saw that attack order of Zuka dated the 11th of September, which the

10 Prosecutor showed to you. Now, let me ask you the question again. You

11 knew very well Zuka was going to be engaged in combat activities and you

12 also knew that he was short of weapons, true or false?

13 A. Well, he had sufficient amount of weapons, part of which he was

14 supposed to hand over to me. If we go back a little bit, I -- you'll see

15 that I think that I have stated that while talking to Zuka I asked him to

16 give he the weapons for which I had paid him, and he said something to the

17 effect that he would give it to me after the offensive. And if you go

18 back a little bit, you will see for yourself that I did state that.

19 Q. I'm sorry, are you pointing out that that conversation that you've

20 just referred to is in this statement here? Look, in any event, frankly,

21 I won't argue with you about that topic, Mr. Delalic, now. It's -- what

22 I'm putting to you is the next part now, and we'll go on to it. You

23 said: "When I came to Zulfikar Alispago's command, I saw Sefer

24 Halilovic, Bilajac, and Zulfikar Alispago there and they were already at

25 the time discussing the forthcoming operations." Correct?

Page 68

1 Now, effectively that's what you've told this court now, isn't

2 it? That's your account now that when you arrived those people were

3 sitting there discussing the war. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So the judge has got that part right again, yes or no?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then the next part is this: "While we were sitting there,

8 somebody informed Zulfikar Alispago's base that some civilians who lived

9 in Grabovica had been killed in the Grabovica area."

10 Now, that's different to your account now, isn't it, because your

11 account now is when you got there the news was already known. But here,

12 to Judge Hadzic, you've said, in this version anyway, you said that it was

13 while you were sitting there that the news came in. Now, let me ask you

14 this: Which one of those two accounts is true, the one that you told in

15 court here, or the one that's in this statement to Hadzic, or are

16 neither of them true and they're all just different editions of the false

17 story?

18 A. Well, you see, that in fact from day one when I started speaking

19 to this very day, the essence remains the same and you can use that to

20 prove the truth. These are minor details. It's something that I can't

21 remember. I must have given over a thousand statements. You can't

22 remember every single word and you seem to be clinging to these words.

23 Again, I shall say that what I stated before this Honourable Tribunal is

24 what is true.

25 Q. I understand when you said that you've given thousands of

Page 69

1 statements, that's just a figure of speech and you're not being literal.

2 But how many statements did you give to Nikolai Mikhailov?

3 A. I think I spoke to him twice.

4 Q. Well, you said you'd spoken to him ten times before -- when we

5 asked you before. But are you saying that you made two statements to

6 Nikolai?

7 A. I gave him one statement, the one that he taped; and the next time

8 we were having a conversation over coffee and I gave another statement. I

9 don't think this was recorded but I gave him an account and a chronology

10 twice.

11 Q. Yes. And on that second occasion did he take notes?

12 A. He may have had some sort of a notepad that he took notes in,

13 something to serve as memos, but he did ask quite a number of questions

14 that he wanted to know about.

15 Q. I mean, I'm not -- sometimes I ask you harsh questions. I make it

16 clear that with this one here I'm not putting to you that you're making up

17 these meetings with Nikolai. I just want to know the details about them.

18 The meeting in the coffee shop, can you remember which coffee shop that

19 was?

20 A. It was in the Kiborg in Strossmayer street in Sarajevo. It's a

21 cafe that I actually own.

22 Q. Yes. Okay. And doing the best you can to remember, is it your

23 best memory that he did have a notepad with him and he was taking notes as

24 memos for later times?

25 A. I think he did. He was taking notes of some sort. At the same

Page 70

1 time, he was giving me names that he had on a list, names of people that

2 he wished to interview.

3 Q. Yes. Okay. And did you help him to find those people?

4 A. The people he wanted to interview, well, some were around and some

5 were not around; and I told him so. I helped him to track down some of

6 the people. I gave him some phone numbers -- or rather, I gave some of

7 the people his phone number and people called back and they were

8 eventually interviewed. But it really depended. He would leave a card

9 behind, and then if I tracked someone down I would give them Mr. Nikolai's

10 details and suggested that they talk to him if they wished to do so.

11 Q. I understand that. And are you able -- you probably don't have

12 the exact date, but can you give us an approximate time of this coffee

13 shop meeting. Was it before or after the taped meeting that you had with

14 him?

15 A. I can't remember specifically. But most of the meetings took

16 place afterwards. There were one or two meetings before the interview was

17 taped. But most of the meetings occurred after that.

18 Q. All right. Thank you for that. Now I want to return to this

19 statement here. Down at the bottom of the -- sorry, at the bottom of our

20 page here -- well, that may be four lines further down, you said this: "I

21 know that Sefer Halilovic ordered Zulfikar Alispago in my presence to go

22 and see what happened and what was involved."

23 Do you see that section?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that's accurate, isn't it, that's the same as what you say

Page 71

1 here?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what I'm putting to you is a positive fact, assertion, to you

4 that that's true, that at one point -- I'm sorry, I'll withdraw that.

5 I'll phrase it another way. We'll go on with the statement. Now, in this

6 statement, maybe another ten lines further on, you said this: "Already at

7 the entrance to Grabovica when we crossed the bridge and crossed to the

8 right bank of the Neretva River, I noticed a group of civilians, perhaps

9 seven or eight of them, and there were both men and women in this group

10 who had just left Grabovica in the direction of Jablanica on foot."

11 Now, do you see that passage?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, is that true?

14 A. It's possible, but I really can't remember.

15 Q. You can't remember seeing live civilians walking away from the

16 village. Is that accurate?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. All right. Well, let's press on. You said this: "On arrival in

19 Grabovica, I immediately headed for my unit where my soldiers were, and

20 from conversation with them I found out that Zulfikar Alispago and Vehbija

21 Karic were in charge of the billeting of all those soldiers in the

22 Grabovica village."

23 Now, is that true that your soldiers told you that Zulfikar and

24 Karic had been in charge of the billeting?

25 A. What I said is that they were accommodated side by side and they

Page 72

1 were there when people were being put up. That's all I said.

2 Q. Okay. Well, let's move down the page a little bit further. And

3 just notice this bit here. "I would like to point out that I stayed in

4 the unit among my soldiers while Zuka went to two of the units that were

5 billeted in Grabovica."

6 Do you see that part?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that true?

9 A. It's possible. I don't remember.

10 Q. Okay. And you went on to say this: "Apart from what the soldiers

11 told me in connection with their billeting, none of the soldiers said

12 anything to me so that I did not find out anything in connection with the

13 deaths of the civilians, and in particular I did not see any bodies of

14 persons who had been killed."

15 A. Yes. I didn't see any in the village itself.

16 Q. Oh, I see. What you're saying is that this statement's not false

17 because the bodies you saw were somewhere else. Is that the way you want

18 to put it?

19 A. I saw them just outside the village, along the road leading into

20 the village but not in the village itself.

21 Q. Okay. Well, then let's read the next part. This part's a bit

22 longer, so read it with me so we don't miss anything and we'll go through

23 it.

24 "After approximately an hour I returned with Zuka to his base in

25 Jablanica. In Jablanica, in my presence, Zuka informed Sefer Halilovic

Page 73

1 about what he'd seen in Grabovica. He told him that he thought there had

2 been killings but that he had not seen a single body. The conversation

3 continued to the effect that a check needed to be organised to see whether

4 there had been killings, and if there had, where the bodies were. And

5 that an investigation should be conducted in connection with this

6 incident. The conversation was conducted by Zuka, together with Sefer,

7 and there was some other officers there as well whom I cannot remember

8 now."

9 Now, Mr. Delalic, I want to put two things to you there. First of

10 all, in fact what you put there was quite accurate as to what happened in

11 really -- in real life. You did come back with Zuka, and Sefer and Zuka

12 did say that there should be an investigation. Is that true or false?

13 A. No one spoke about an investigation.

14 Q. Why did you say this in this signed statement?

15 A. Where does it -- where is that stated? I'm not sure.

16 Q. We'll find it for you -- I'm sorry, were you unable to follow that

17 when I was reading through? My apologies if -- that's okay. We'll find

18 it for you. Do you have the third page there in about the middle of the

19 page -- in about the middle of the third page you'll see the word "nakon."

20 If you look down the left-hand side column the word nakon is --

21 A. I can see that.

22 Q. Okay. "After approximately an hour I returned with Zuka to his

23 command in Jablanica. In Jablanica, in my presence, Zuka informed Sefer

24 Halilovic about what he had seen in Grabovica. He told him that there had

25 been killings -- sorry, told him he thought there had been killings but

Page 74

1 that he had not seen a single body. The conversation continued to the

2 effect that a check needed to be organised to see whether there had been

3 killings, and if there had, where the bodies were, and that an

4 investigation should be conducted in connection with this incident. The

5 conversation was conducted by Zuka together with Sefer, and there were

6 some other officers there as well who I cannot remember now."

7 Do you see that passage that I've just read out, Mr. Delalic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now, that's true, isn't it, that when you and Zuka came

10 back from the village in the evening of the 9th of September, Zuka and

11 Sefer Halilovic did have a discussion to that effect, saying that there

12 should be an investigation. Is that correct?

13 A. Well, they did have an investigation, didn't they?

14 Q. Just slow down a minute. Isn't that what was said? Didn't Zuka

15 and Sefer say in your presence that there needed to be an investigation

16 after you and Zuka came back from Grabovica? That's correct, isn't it?

17 A. Did they have an investigation or not? I'm asking you.

18 Q. Well, look, one of the great benefits of being a lawyer --

19 A. Not only did they not have an investigation --

20 Q. Just answer the question. That's the truth, isn't it? They

21 came -- what you said here is the truth: They came back and said, We

22 must have an investigation. True or follows?

23 A. Not only did they not have an investigation, they asked that the

24 children be disposed of and for the whole thing to be covered up. They

25 failed, however. Not a word was said about an investigation being carried

Page 75

1 out. And this is demonstrated by Rasim Delic's letter being torn up.

2 There is no paper trail whatsoever to show that any investigation had been

3 ordered at all.

4 Q. How do you know?

5 A. Well, probably one would already have been produced if any such

6 thing was around.

7 Q. Well, Mr. Delalic, isn't the true state of affairs, something that

8 you left out of this statement, that when Zuka and Sefer said that there

9 should be an investigation you said "no" and you said the soldiers won't

10 stand for it and there'll be a fight if any investigators go down there.

11 True or false?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And from that time on you behaved in a hostile and confrontative

14 way with any civilian police or military police or SVB who you came

15 across. True or false?

16 A. It's impossible to say these things. There were thousands of

17 soldiers down there. There must be a witness somewhere who could testify

18 about these things. This is sheer nonsense.

19 Q. Okay. And finally can you account for why it is on a signed

20 statement of yours these words are to be found, and I mean signed by you,

21 Mr. Delalic, not by somebody else?

22 A. As I've told you, this judge, who was later replaced, made sure he

23 got his own words recorded, not mine. And this was the reason behind our

24 quarrel, the fact that it wasn't my words that were recorded.

25 Q. Well, look, I've only got one more question on this topic and it's

Page 76

1 this: Since they weren't your words that were recorded, why did you sign

2 it?

3 A. Well, first of all, there were several police officers present,

4 the court police. I wanted to leave as soon as possible, so I just signed

5 it to get it over with without even reading the report. I don't think it

6 was completed. It took several hours more, but the process was

7 interrupted.

8 Q. Maybe so, Mr. Delalic, but -- I don't mean this in any underhanded

9 way, but you could take care of those policemen if you needed to, couldn't

10 you, if they attacked you?

11 A. I don't think so. That's nonsense.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, this might be the moment, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at 10

14 minutes to 1.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.

16 [The witness stands down]

17 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Judge Szenasi won't be able to be with us for

19 this sitting, and the remaining Judges, according to the Rule 15(B)

20 continue to proceed.

21 Before we have the witness, Mr. Morrissey, are you ready to tell

22 us about the counsel kept --

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, it's the Defence case that -- Your Honour --

24 could we go into private session, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, we'll go to private session, please.

Page 77

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Page 78











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Page 80

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey, what's your estimation for your

20 cross-examination? I hope you could leave some time for Ms. Chana to do

21 some re-examination.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, there are two matters that I'll

23 raise. The first one is that I've nearly finished with this document

24 showing. So I think that's got probably another five or ten minutes.

25 Then I have to deal with some matters at the end of this phase of the

Page 81

1 operation. There's the order of the 12th I've dealt with pretty quickly.

2 I'm not going to go back to that. Some of the things that happened in

3 Sarajevo before units were sent back down again. I've got to put some

4 things to him because there may be some evidence that goes through the

5 next witness concerning that. I've got some questions about two

6 indictments that are relevant, that is time-consuming but I'll try to do

7 it quickly, and that's the substance of what I have. That's really the --

8 it's possible to finish. I should have -- I didn't realise how we were

9 travelling, but it -- I'm -- from my own point of view, I find myself

10 slipping in efficiency. I'm very tired. I'm sorry about that. It's just

11 the way it's happened. I am slipping a bit in efficiency and preparation.

12 You've probably seen a bit of flapping at the bar table. It's in

13 everyone's interest to finish today. I'd be prepared to go a little bit

14 longer. I don't think I'll be very effective if I went too much longer,

15 frankly, I'm -- I just find myself tired. I don't know whether the Court

16 can accommodate that anyway, but I express a willingness to go some

17 further distance if need be. I will try to finish by 1.30. But it's --

18 it's ...

19 JUDGE LIU: I believe I have to make any inquiry to see whether

20 there even any other cases arranged for this courtroom this afternoon.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes believe there isn't, but --

22 THE REGISTRAR: I'm checking now, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 So could we have the witness, please.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 82

1 THE REGISTRAR: The courtroom is available, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, please continue.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic. Okay. Now, the next passage I

5 want to go -- I'm sorry. Before the break I was asking you questions

6 about -- about page -- I'm not sure which page it was. But the section

7 where this statement claims that an investigation should be conducted in

8 connection with this incident. Could you now find out -- I say it's

9 beginning: "That evening I went with Zuka to his apartment where we spent

10 the night."

11 Do you see that? It's at the same spot we were before but just

12 after that. I'm sorry. Do you have -- can you see that, Mr. Delalic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I will -- we'll find it. It's the last part from this particular

15 document that I want to go to. I'll just -- I'll hold it up. Can you see

16 that green part there that I'm -- where the numbers 8, 8.30, that sort of

17 number? There's a mark there, and there's 8 to 8.30 there.

18 A. Which -- oh, all right. I can see it.

19 Q. Thanks. Okay. Now the passage I want to read out is the one that

20 begins with the sentence: "That evening I went with Zuka to his

21 apartment."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. "Where we spent the night. And in the morning" -- I just stop

25 here. I'm butting my own words in here. It is apparent that this is

Page 83

1 after -- in your account after you have been to Grabovica and spoken to

2 the soldiers and so on. And that evening you went with Zuka to his

3 apartment "where we spent the night. And in the morning we got up

4 sometime between 0800 and 0830 hours. And at around 0900 hours we were in

5 his command in Donja Jablanica. In the command in Donja Jablanica I found

6 Erdin Arnautovic, who was the logistics officers attached to my unit and

7 who had just come from Grabovica to pick up the MTS for the unit. Dino

8 said then that two children had been found between the houses in

9 Grabovica. I returned to Grabovica with Dino in order to see the

10 children."

11 Now, Mr. Delalic, again, on this occasion you're saying -- on this

12 occasion, I mean in this letter before Judge Hadzic you're saying that you

13 went and spoke to the children on the morning of the 10th. Now that's

14 different from your evidence in court here. Now, can I ask you: Why is

15 that paragraph in your statement before Judge Hadzic?

16 A. Well, you see, most of the things that you've just stated are

17 true. It's possible that as I was giving my statement, time was recorded

18 inaccurately. But roughly speaking, all of this is true, what is

19 reflected here, except I never gave the exact time. Well, maybe there was

20 a bit of confusion. But when I found out that I was to testify before

21 this Tribunal, I did prepare a little, needless to say. This after all,

22 is an institution where you're in no position to lie and muck about. What

23 I said before this Tribunal is true; that's all I can say.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you for that.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Now, could the witness please be shown D -- excuse

Page 84

1 me. It's Defence Exhibit D1560. This is uploaded and this is a document

2 on the computer. It's Defence 65 ter number D1560 and it's a -- the ERN

3 number is DD003254. It's a document that the -- we have a copy in Bosnian

4 and in English for the Prosecutors because it's a bit of a lengthy

5 document. And we have a copy also for Mr. Delalic to look at in hard copy

6 because -- what I'm going to show now, Your Honours, is the judgement in a

7 case against a man called Ismet Dahic in which this witness also figured

8 as a witness.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, were you a witness in a prosecution of Ismet

10 Dahic where he was accused of issuing you wrongfully with a passport when

11 you weren't supposed to get one?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. And --

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, sorry, could I just ask that this particular

15 document be given an MFI number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be MFI 426.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for that.

18 Q. Now, in this document could I just ask you to look at the section

19 which is headed "statement of reasons."

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, on the -- on the e-court this is on

21 page 3 of the English.

22 Q. I'm not sure which page it is for you, but do you have "statement

23 of reasons," that part?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. The second paragraph of that statement of reasons contains

Page 85

1 Dahic's defence. I'll just read it in and you read along with it. "The

2 accused Ismet Dahic denied committing the crime and stated that he had not

3 instructed either Sijad Sabitovic or anyone else to issue a passport to

4 Ramiz Delalic. Since 1986 he had been following Ramiz Delalic and the

5 crimes assigned to him -- ascribed to him," I'm sorry, "which was the year

6 he directed and operation called T1, and he personally arrested him." And

7 I'll point out that 1986 was probably a wrong date. "While Dahic was the

8 person for the canton, Delalic had been detected as perpetrator of some

9 five or six crimes which defies the logic. In the same year when he

10 spearheaded a widespread campaign of combatting crime in the town, he as

11 minister would order a passport to be issued to Ramiz Delalic. Therefore,

12 he seized no grounds for Ramiz Delalic's charges against him."

13 Now, have you read that passage?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, before I ask you anymore questions, the fact is that Dahic

16 was an enemy of yours for many years. Is that correct?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Dahic was the person who besieged you and ultimately arrested you

19 way on the on the 26th of October, 1993, during the Trebevic operation.

20 Is that correct?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. And isn't it also the case that Ismet Dahic was the person who you

23 made the comment about breaking his legs with a baseball bat that I asked

24 you about the other day. Is that true?

25 A. No, I never said that.

Page 86

1 Q. Okay. Well, now to continue. If you could turn over the page

2 now, it's about five or six paragraphs further. There's a sentence

3 beginning with the name Zijad Sabitovic. Do you see that paragraph?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'll go through it in just a minute, but I just wanted to ask you

6 this: According to you Dahic did issue you a passport in his office in

7 the way that he was charged. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you also made that claim in a newspaper article -- I'll show

10 it to you if you need to, but you made that claim in a newspaper article,

11 Oslobodjenje, which had the heading: "I am a man with glasses and a

12 moustache but no beard."

13 Is that correct?

14 A. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

15 Q. Didn't you give an interview to Oslobodjenje at one stage where --

16 where you said that Dahic had indeed issued you with a passport and the

17 photograph of you in that passport was a man with glasses and a moustache

18 but no beard?

19 A. That's correct. Ismet Dahic did issue me that passport in his

20 office pursuant to an order from the government.

21 Q. Okay, well that's fine, but -- now, let's go back to this

22 paragraph here, this Zijad Sabitovic one. I'll read it with you. "Zijad

23 Sabitovic indeed confirmed" -- I'll just pause here.

24 And this -- I just have something for Your Honour's benefit and

25 for the witness, too. You don't need to know the details of who Zijad

Page 87

1 Sabitovic were unless somebody else says that you do. It's really what

2 comes afterwards that's important. "Zijad Sabitovic indeed confirmed that

3 Sefer Sehodzic" -- sorry, "Sehovic," [phoen] I apologise for my mistakes,

4 "had informed him that the boss," who is the accused, "requested a

5 passport to be prepared for Ramiz Delalic. But this part of his statement

6 was not corroborated, either by Sehovic's same time or by Ramiz Delalic's

7 statement. The latter changed his statement given during the

8 investigation by claiming that he had no recollection of receiving the

9 passport from Dahic, as he had said earlier. He also could not remember if

10 he had ever been in the office of the accused, Ismet Dahic, because he had

11 persistently refused to see him."

12 And the court goes on to say this: "This view of the accused's

13 defence argument and the indisputable fact that the accused Dahic had been

14 involved on several occasions on detecting the crimes committed by Ramiz

15 Delalic, the court decided to place faith in the statement given by

16 Delalic at the trial in which he said that he had never had any contact

17 with the accused."

18 Now, Mr. Delalic, you lied to that court, didn't you, when you

19 said you couldn't remember getting the passport from Dahic. True or

20 false?

21 A. Well, first thing, I was serving a six-month sentence at the time

22 and the accusation I made was not only in relation to Ismet Dahic, but

23 also to Suljagic, I think that was his name. The warden of the prison in

24 which I was serving my sentence was a relative of this Suljagic whom I had

25 accused. During my stay in the prison I was not treated the same way as

Page 88

1 all the other prisoners. Those prisoners serving their sentences had

2 larger rooms, they could socialise, they could play certain games like

3 chess, dominoes. Meanwhile, I was in my own room in isolation facing a

4 lot of grief from the warden. I was under so much pressure in fact that I

5 was escorted all the way from prison to court. What I stated in court

6 later was under duress and this is something that should be easy enough

7 for you to check, that things happened the way I have just described, I

8 mean the things that happened in prison.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I offer that document for tender.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And --


12 Q. Yes, no, go ahead. That's all right. Go ahead.

13 A. Never for a moment did I deny that. I just said I didn't

14 remember. It was proved, after all, that he had issued me the passport.

15 Everyone knew who his chief was, the chief of the section that issued

16 passports. It was proved that the passport was issued in the presence of

17 Ismet Dahic and pursuant to a request that had been made by Ismet Dahic;

18 however, what I said, I said facing an enormous amount of pressure.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I offer that document for tender. Now,

20 could I turn, please, to the D -- sorry, there's another document now that

21 I wish to show. The one I'm going to show now is the indictment

22 concerning -- that might as well be returned now, that document, and I'll

23 show you the indictment now concerning you in Trebevic -- sorry, pardon

24 me, the judgement concerning you in the Trebevic matter. This is D776 and

25 its -- its ERN number is DD003094.

Page 89

1 Sorry, Your Honours, we're going to provide a hard copy of this to

2 the Prosecutors, too, because it's a bit lengthy. I presume might have

3 this one, but, anyway, we've got it in court today so ...

4 Q. Okay. Now, here is a judgement, Mr. Delalic, in which you were

5 sentenced to three years' imprisonment. And what occurred there was that

6 you were sentenced for one charge but you were found not guilty on a

7 number of others. Correct?

8 A. I was convicted here for failure to execute the order of the

9 commander.

10 Q. Of Ismet Dahic. Is that right?

11 A. That's what the indictment stated.

12 Q. All right. Now, I just want to take you to some parts of this.

13 Just excuse me. This is on page 6 of the English version, and it -- on

14 your version it will be a number of pages in. It's in the statement of

15 reasons, and there's a paragraph that begins with: "In his statement,

16 witness Ismet Dahic said on the 26th of October he directly took part in

17 the implementation of the plan."

18 Do you have that part?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, it's the fact, isn't it, that Dahic told the court

21 that: "Commander Ramiz Delalic was called upon to surrender weapons and

22 leave the facility with his group."

23 Is that true?

24 A. No, that's not true. Immediately, that morning, they killed

25 several fighters from various snipers and wounded several others, and

Page 90

1 civilians.

2 Q. Just a moment. Is it your allegation that the -- that the forces

3 involved in Trebevic -- in the Trebevic operation killed some civilians?

4 Is that your claim?

5 A. No, no, not civilians, fighters.

6 MS. CHANA: Excuse me, counsel.

7 May it please Your Honour. I just had a quick look at this

8 document which has been provided to us. I believe since the person here

9 has been acquitted of all the other charges except insubordination and

10 counsel here is asking about what a particular witness said, I think that

11 if counsel would confine his arguments to the findings of the court as

12 opposed to what one witness, because the court could have believed that

13 witness or not, especially since there has been an acquittal. But to say

14 that this witness said this, I don't think it's probative enough.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your -- I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE LIU: I believe this judgement and whatever's mentioned in

17 it is just a clue to certain points, and the Prosecution makes that

18 objection. But however, I believe Defence is entitled to ask those

19 questions so long as those questions are relevant and has the probative

20 value.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour, could I -- yes, I will -- and I

22 understand what my friend's saying. On pages 9 and 10, you can see the

23 court's findings of fact so that what my friend says is right. I just say

24 this for the transcript because I don't want to read the whole lot into

25 the -- on pages 9 and 10 you can see the court's finding of fact. So what

Page 91

1 my friend says is right, some acquittals, one convictions, but the actual

2 findings of fact and the analysis of the witnesses by the court cane be

3 found, so I won't obviously go outside what the court -- what the court

4 found.

5 Q. Anyway, going back to what you recall about this and what Dahic

6 said, is it the fact that Dahic makes accusation against you: "In the

7 meantime Ramiz Delalic rounded up civilians from the neighbouring

8 buildings and brought them to fire on premises" -- sorry. Pardon me.

9 That was a ... "In the meantime Ramiz Delalic rounded up civilians from

10 the surrounding villages and brought them to his base where they were used

11 as hostages to prevent a firearms attack on his building."

12 Now, that's an allegation that Dahic made at the time. Let me ask

13 you this question: That's true, sit, you did bring those people as

14 hostages?

15 A. As I've said, during the attack against us there had been no

16 warning. Right at the beginning, eight soldiers were wounded. Some

17 gravely, some had minor wounds, some were critically wounded. A vast

18 amount of various artillery rounds were fired on us with some kind of a

19 gas. It was during that time that several people from nearby buildings

20 looked for shelter in the barracks. There was none of what you are

21 claiming, taking civilians and hostages or anything like that. No

22 civilians were used for any of those purposes. It was that the civilians

23 looked for shelter in the barracks because there was so much smoke. There

24 were many children there. The soldiers who were in the barracks did not

25 have enough protective masks to give to the children. Children started

Page 92

1 throwing up, women and so on. Everything was engulfed in the smoke. So

2 these people took shelter in a room within the barracks, and then they

3 remained within that room throughout the attack during which gas was used.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, on page 9 of the transcript.

5 Q. Did the court find against you in the following terms --

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this is page 9, it's in the middle,

7 it's after a huge clump of names included Haravak [phoen], Sabovic,

8 Kajevic, Krluca [phoen], and others.

9 Q. Did the court say this: "The court completely accepted

10 allegations presented by the defence, as these allegations were confirmed

11 in the statements by witnesses Ismet Dahic." Sorry, I probably should

12 have introduced what I was getting at there, so I apologise. Just

13 disregard that.

14 It's the fact, isn't it, that you, even as early as 9.00 in the

15 morning, were in telephone contact with Ismet Dahic. Is that right?

16 A. I asked to speak on the phone with Mr. Vahid Karavelic, however

17 Ismet Dahic picked up the phone. I don't know whether you have the

18 transcript of that conversation. On that occasion, I asked him to halt

19 the attack. And the soldiers who were in the barracks, the civilians, the

20 children, I asked for them to be moved out of the barracks. We didn't

21 know what was going on. Nobody had informed us about any kind of attack

22 or anything like that. Therefore, I asked Ismet Dahic to move out the

23 civilians and the fighters, some of whom were gravely wounded. To that he

24 replied he would set everything on fire and destroy everything. You

25 probably have that conversation recorded.

Page 93

1 Q. On the bottom of page 10 in the English version, Your Honour,

2 about five lines from the bottom. Mr. Delalic, did the court make a

3 finding in the following terms: "The court completely accepted statements

4 by witnesses Ismet Dahic and Rusmir Mokavic [phoen], as both are

5 convincing, logical, and circumstantial, and they give no rise to doubts."

6 Is that a finding that the court made?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. During the -- the prosecutor played you a tape of the conversation

9 that you had with Sefer Halilovic on the 26th of October. But I want to

10 put to you that there was more than one such conversation, and in fact

11 that you spoke to Sefer on three or more than three occasions on that day.

12 Is that true?

13 A. I think I spoke to him a couple of times. I don't know how many

14 times we talked, but more than once.

15 Q. And in fairness to you, I think you indicated this earlier that

16 Sefer Halilovic wasn't the only person you spoke to on the phone that day

17 by any means. Is that correct?

18 A. No. I also spoke with the president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

19 Q. And you've indicated Dahic. Did you also speak to Ejub Ganic at

20 any time?

21 A. As this fact was established, namely that many of the civilians

22 who were there were poisoned by the gas used against us and the civilians,

23 they sent in a delegation to the barracks. The then-prime minister, Hari

24 Suljagic was a member of that delegation, as was the army commander - at

25 the time that was Rasim Delic - the then-MUP minister, Alispahic, Ismet

Page 94

1 Dahic, and some other people were in that delegation but I can't recall

2 that now. On that occasion, the civilians who were in the office close to

3 mine spat at the delegation, precisely because of the way in which they

4 reacted and because of the type of attack that was used against the

5 civilians.

6 Q. Did -- at about 2.00 in the afternoon, 1400 hours, did you have a

7 conversation with Sefer Halilovic in the following terms, and I'll put it

8 to you. You said: "Boss, they've issued an ultimatum saying they would

9 attack in five minutes."

10 Sefer said: "Who?"

11 And you said: "You know, fuck it."

12 And Sefer said: "Who issued the ultimatum?"

13 And you said: "I don't know, I'm calling Alija because I said to

14 stop shooting and he said he would call them and tell them. And now it

15 seems he went to the corps."

16 And Sefer said: "Who?"

17 You said: "Alija."

18 He said: "The president?"

19 And you said: "Yeah."

20 Sefer said: "Ganic just called and said to tell him to surrender

21 and later we would see what to do. I said I would pass it on so there

22 were no problems. That was just now. I finished talking to him three

23 minutes ago. Here is Ganic's phone number, 472-618. And you

24 said: "Okay, boss."

25 And Sefer said: "Okay."

Page 95

1 Now, did you have that conversation with Sefer Halilovic at about

2 2.00 in the afternoon?

3 A. It's possible. I had several conversations with him. I really

4 can't remember this specific one. I was beside myself with everything

5 that was going on. It's possible that we had this conversation, but I

6 really can't say for sure.

7 Q. Very well. Now, I've got some other questions --

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honours, could that Trebevic judgement

9 please be given a number as well? I offer it -- that for tender.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked 4 -- MFI 427.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm very grateful for that. Very well. Thank

13 you. All right.

14 Q. Now, finally I have some questions for you concerning what you --

15 some of the matters you raised when you first gave evidence here. You

16 said in evidence here that you got special financial support from Sefer

17 Halilovic at the time when he was the commander of the army, and you

18 mentioned a person named Dika, his chef de cabinet. Now, I put to you

19 that Dika stopped working for him in February of 1993. Is that correct?

20 A. February 1993?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Well, I don't know what the documents indicate, but whenever I

23 came to see Sefer Halilovic I found her either in the office, where she

24 usually was, or in his bed.

25 Q. Well, all right. Isn't it the fact that there was a person there

Page 96

1 named Safet Baltic who had the duty of issuing money from the safe and

2 keeping records of such monies?

3 A. I never received money from this person called Safet Baltic. I

4 don't know who that person is. I'm sure I never met this person. All

5 the money I ever got was from Sefer or from Dika. In most cases it was

6 Dika who would issue me money because she had been ordered to do so by

7 Sefer.

8 Q. But it's the fact, isn't it, that any monies you were issued to

9 from Sefer's office were properly documented and were given to you for the

10 purposes of arms purchases, and in fact you used them for such purposes.

11 Is that correct?

12 A. Well, you see, it wasn't just my brigade that was receiving money;

13 there were other brigades, too. The 1st Mountain Brigade, for example;

14 there was the 10th Mountain Unit; the Delta Unit; and my brigade. I'm

15 sure there must be certificates and receipts to that effect, but sometimes

16 there was no receipt issued. It all depended on how urgently the money

17 was needed.

18 Q. No, no. Now, just on that topic of no receipts being issued,

19 there was nothing sinister or sneaky about that, was there? You've

20 indicated that that was just when it was an urgent matter. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. So when you make a claim that -- that your brigade was

24 treated with preference by Sefer Halilovic, that would be reflected or not

25 reflected, depending on the truth of your claim, in those records.

Page 97

1 Correct?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. So that if Mr. Safet Baltic were to say that the 9th Mountain

4 Brigade was not in any kind of privileged position in relation to

5 the acquirement of financial means, you couldn't dispute that, could

6 you?

7 A. Well, you see, maybe not the 9th Mountain Brigade, I'm not sure

8 which brigade we're talking about. But the 9th Motorised Brigade did have

9 that.

10 Q. Well, yes, you're right to correct me there, I suppose. You got

11 me. Your -- the brigade of which you were the deputy commander, I put to

12 you, did not have any preferential treatment and you've disagreed with me

13 on that. I'll move on.

14 Next of all, you would agree, Mr. Delalic, that you were not in

15 the line of the rick [phoen], in the line of command and control of the

16 army? You didn't regard yourself as bound by that. Would you agree with

17 me about that?

18 A. I, or my unit, rather the 9th Motorised Brigade, the unit that I

19 was a member of, was within the command system. There is no order

20 indicated that this unit was anywhere else.

21 Q. Do you know any armies in the world or any military rules in the

22 world that provide for a soldier being in the system of command and

23 control when they're conspiring to murder the commander-in-chief?

24 A. You must know that none of the armies in the world that you

25 referred to is like the army that there was in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

Page 98

1 besieged on all sides, entirely surrounded. And there was anarchy among

2 its ranks. It wasn't possible to establish an army to resemble the armies

3 that you're talking about, to even bear a distant resemblance to any of

4 those armies. I'm not sure this is what I should tell you. This is the

5 way it was.

6 Q. Well, maybe you can tell me this. Why was it that you waited

7 until you came to The Hague to make this claim that Sefer was in a

8 conspiracy with you and the Deltas to murder Rasim Delic?

9 A. Well, you see, in a way it is my opinion that there was never a

10 direct order to kill those civilians. I'm positive about that. If you

11 ask me, the soldiers who did that should have been sentenced, although to

12 some extent I consider Sefer Halilovic responsible because he failed to

13 take certain steps and all that. What I mean to say is: This

14 institution, this Tribunal, that at least is my opinion, is a Tribunal

15 where one should under no circumstances lie. I am convinced that the

16 investigators of this Tribunal are privy to every little detail and

17 everything else that occurred in Grabovica. I have no need to lie or to

18 muck about. I am certain that the only thing one is supposed to do is

19 tell the truth.

20 Q. I see. You, just excuse me one moment, please.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Would Your Honours just give me one moment,

22 please.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I just want to approach the accused

25 briefly, if I might.

Page 99

1 [Defence counsel and accused confer]

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. I've got a question about

3 communications now.

4 Q. You've indicated you don't think you had Motorolas with you in --

5 in Konjic. How did you communicate with Grabovica at the time when,

6 according to your story, you got down to -- down to Jablanica and heard

7 this news and then you came back and saw Sefer Halilovic and then you

8 heard news about the boys being found. Now, I want to ask you: What's

9 the form of communications that was used to give you that piece of

10 information?

11 A. I've already said that I could not remember whether we got

12 Motorolas later on or not. But from the time I arrived, from Konjic to

13 Jablanica, when I arrived in Zuka's base, it was then that I learned about

14 the crime that had happened. I did not learn about the crime while I was

15 in Konjic.

16 Q. Okay. Very well. I just want to put --

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I referred to a Safet Baltic

18 document before, and I just want to have that distributed now. It's a bit

19 lengthy to read into the transcript in the time that we've got, but I can

20 put the main parts of it to the witness. Okay. I'll start reading it now

21 while it's circulating, if that's okay.

22 Q. You're -- this is what the letter says: "I, Safet Baltic," and it

23 gives some details. He says: "I was appointed as a member of staff in

24 July 1992 for the collection of the means for the defensive needs of the

25 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in accordance with the order of the

Page 100

1 Chief of Staff of the armed forces. I was appointed as leader and as the

2 one responsible for the treasury of the foreigner currency means and the

3 treasury for special purposes of the staff of the supreme command of the

4 OS BiH. As a person who had the exclusive right to guard and to issue the

5 foreign currency means upon an order of the chief of the SVK of the OS

6 BiH, I guarded those capably and very responsibly and would issue the same

7 upon mentioned oral or written orders. I state responsibly that at the

8 time there was no possibility" --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please slow down.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: I will slow down.

11 Q. "I state responsibly at the time there was no possibility of such

12 abuse of the financial resources from the treasury of the SVK OS BiH nor

13 was there the theoretical possibility for such abuse. All the means are

14 orderly documented and justified in accordance with the possibilities that

15 were available in the time of war. It is familiar to me that the mean --

16 that means were given to units and commands of the ABiH in accordance with

17 the possibilities where they were the most needed, according to the

18 estimates. I remember that in the period the 9th Brigade was given 60.000

19 Deutschmarks and that these means were exclusively used for the purchase

20 and transporting of the MTS in the besieged Sarajevo. The 9th Mountain

21 Brigade of the ABiH was not in any kind of privileged position in relation

22 to the acquirement of financial means."

23 And the witness then -- sorry, well, Mr. Baltic then goes on to

24 give details of other units which are included there.

25 Now, the fact is --

Page 101

1 MR. MORRISSEY: I offer for that document for tender, first of

2 all. It falls into the same category as the other ones -- other letters

3 that we've put to you in the last week in response to what's been said in

4 court.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

6 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I'm a bit confused as to this way of

7 doing things. Your Honour, these are people obviously who have

8 communicated to the Defence. While Defence is entitled to put to this

9 witness some of the things that have been said to get his answer because

10 he is in court today, I don't think that these can be introduced into

11 evidence. The Defence, during their Defence case, of course, may bring

12 forward these witnesses, we can cross-examine them, and Your Honours will

13 have the benefit of the full testimony of these witnesses. But to tender

14 these into -- as exhibits, Your Honour, the --

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll deal with the document issues at a later

16 stage, maybe by the paper communications.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: But anyway, I believe that the Defence counsel is

19 entitled to ask this witness whether the 9th Mountain Brigade was in a

20 more favourable position in terms of receiving money compared with other

21 units.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Yes, Your Honour.

23 Q. And, Mr. Delalic, what I put to you is this: To the extent that

24 the 9th Brigade had an advantage over other brigades, it's because you

25 were able to get voluntary donations from the cafe owners and other

Page 102

1 business people in the old town where you were based. That's correct,

2 isn't it?

3 A. Firstly, I would like to know something. This document does not

4 say that the units of which I was a member ever received any money at all.

5 Q. Yes, it does. You must have missed it, but you received 60.000

6 Deutschmarks.

7 A. No, I can't see it anywhere.

8 Q. Well, we'll have to check. That could be a -- be the -- an

9 interpretation problem, but --

10 A. There is nothing on the face of this document to indicate that my

11 unit ever received any money at all.

12 Q. Well, do you see a sentence there saying: "I remember that in

13 that period the 9th Brigade was given 60.000 Deutschmarks"?

14 A. There's talk here of the 9th Mountain Brigade -- no, there is an

15 enormous difference, the difference between the 9th Mountain Brigade on

16 the one hand and the 109th Motorised Brigade on the other. What this

17 shows is that this person was not privy to these details at all. Perhaps

18 he didn't even know who he gave the money to, if indeed he had given any

19 money at all. And believe me, he wasn't there when the money was handed

20 over, whenever money was received, it was either from Dika or from Sefer.

21 Q. All right. Well, now the question is this: Did you know that at

22 the start of June of 1993, Mustafa Hajrulahovic, Talijan, and Sefer

23 Halilovic approached the Presidency and asked for you to be replaced, you

24 and Caco to be replaced. Did you know about that?

25 A. I didn't know about that.

Page 103

1 Q. Mr. Delalic, just to conclude this cross-examination now, I want

2 to put something to you. You weren't really in a particularly close

3 relationship with Sefer Halilovic at all, but rather he was just a

4 superior officer that you liked and admired in the fight that you were

5 both fighting against the aggressor. Isn't that the fact?

6 A. Mr. Sefer Halilovic and I were on exceptionally friendly terms.

7 Q. He was just your superior officer and he was friendly to you just

8 like he was friendly to other officers who were fighting bravely in the

9 army. Isn't that the real truth, Mr. Delalic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Those are the questions. Thank you for your attention.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 Any re-examination, Ms. Chana?

14 MS. CHANA: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

16 MS. CHANA: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I'll deal with this

17 last document first. Your Honour ...

18 Re-examined by Ms. Chana:

19 Q. Mr. Delalic, you have the Bosnian document there and I have the

20 English translation. Could you read from the sentence: "I remember that

21 in that period," and then if you read that, please. What exactly does it

22 say? Can you find it? It's like towards the end -- just before all that

23 money stuff starts coming up.

24 A. "I remember that in that period, the 9th Mountain Brigade of the

25 BH army was given about 60.000 German marks. This money was used in order

Page 104

1 to bring into the besieged Sarajevo materiel and technical equipment. The

2 9th Mountain Brigade was in no" --

3 Q. That's fine for my purposes --

4 MS. CHANA: Because, Your Honour, I notice this the English

5 translation it says -- the word "Motorised Brigade" has been left out --

6 sorry. The word 9th -- "mountain" is not in the English translation. The

7 English translation Your Honour, it says "9th Brigade."

8 Q. You wouldn't know that because you don't read English, but in

9 your -- the question to you, Mr. Delalic, would be that "Mountain" is a

10 word reflected in the Bosnian version. Is that correct? If you could

11 confirm that for the record, please.

12 A. Yes, yes. 9th Mountain Brigade of the BH army. That's what it

13 says.

14 Q. And that would be a different brigade than the 9th Motorised

15 Brigade. Is that correct?

16 A. That is a huge difference, both in terms of their respective

17 strength and in terms of weapons they had, the number of battalions,

18 everything else. It's worlds apart. The mountain brigade on the one hand

19 and the motorised brigade on the other.

20 Q. And just to confirm again, Mr. Delalic, you are the deputy

21 commander of the 9th Motorised Brigade. Is that correct?

22 A. Definitely.

23 Q. Yes. Now, the last set of questions counsel for the Defence asked

24 you is -- and that document was shown to you to say that money was given

25 equally to each brigade. Now, my question to you, Mr. Delalic, is: Why

Page 105

1 did Sefer Halilovic treat -- did -- sorry. Did Sefer Halilovic treat you

2 the same way as other brigades, as other brigade commanders?

3 A. Well, you see, the chef de cabinet of the chief of the Main Staff

4 should at least have the rank of colonel or general. They should be

5 familiar with the fundamental differences between the mountain brigade,

6 the mechanised brigade, and the motorised brigade. He wasn't familiar

7 with these concepts. He probably wasn't around, and that's why he doesn't

8 know when the money was distributed. As I said, the units of the 9th

9 Motorised Brigade enjoyed a position that was much more privileged than

10 the other units, the units of the 9th Motorised Brigade, alongside with

11 the Delta Unit, was foremost among the units. In Sarajevo, there were

12 many ways for units to obtain weapons. Weapons were, for the most part,

13 distributed to these units. So there again, these units were privileged

14 because they were receiving most of the weapons, the 9th Motorised Brigade

15 and the Delta Unit. There were a great many ways to deliver weapons to

16 Sarajevo. I don't wish to go into that subject now, but there you have

17 it. The gist of the whole matter is that most of the weapons ended up in

18 these two units.

19 Q. And why was that, Mr. Delalic?

20 A. Well, as I've already said, there was a lot of discord and a

21 number of changes - I'm talking about late 1992 and 1993 - in the various

22 corps and in the Main Staff itself. There were a number of officers who

23 wanted to keep strong units until the moment of decision came.

24 Q. Now, Mr. -- Learned counsel for the Defence showed you a letter

25 written by Sadika Omerbegovic. Now, can you tell me, was she always

Page 106

1 present when this money was handed out to you?

2 A. Well, you see, there was a joke going around at Dika's expense in

3 the army. It was always being said that Dika was the true commander and

4 Mr. Halilovic her deputy. Every time money was distributed, every time

5 money was earmarked by the command, for whatever purpose, Dika was always

6 there and so was Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

7 Q. Now, when you were given this money, these various amounts that

8 you testified to earlier when I was examining you before learned Defence

9 counsel, did you ever sign any receipt yourself acknowledging receipt of

10 these monies?

11 A. I am positive that I did not obtain any receipt ever from this

12 man, Safet Baltic, but I'm equally certain that the investigators must be

13 in possession of some receipts issued by Dika, something signed by her or

14 by Sefer Halilovic. I do believe that I myself signed one or two of

15 those.

16 Q. So there would be occasion then, Mr. Delalic, that you would sign

17 for this money which you got?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Would there also be occasions when you didn't sign for the money

20 that you got?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just to be quite clear about it, what would be the procedures

23 generally when any commander received money from the supreme staff?

24 A. Well, normally a receipt would indicate the amount of money

25 issued, and normally that would be done by the assistant commander for

Page 107

1 finance. However, in these instances I personally went to take the money.

2 Q. Were you -- on those occasions -- I'm not talking about the

3 occasions when you signed a receipt or on the occasions when you did not

4 sign a receipt, were you -- did you ever -- did you ever ask to sign one?

5 How would you take the money?

6 A. As I've already said, I would normally go to Sefer, ask him for a

7 certain amount of money. He would tell Dika to give me the money and I

8 would receive the money. The adjacent office to his belonged to Dika, the

9 safe was there. She was the one who worked with the safe, and she would

10 give me whatever I requested in order to buy weapons. So sometimes a

11 receipt was issued and signed by me, but sometimes it wasn't.

12 Q. Yes. Now, I'd like to take you to a document which was shown to

13 you by -- by learned counsel for the Defence, which is P215, and this is a

14 report to Jasarevic from Zankovic. Do you remember that or do need to see

15 it again? Because -- I mean, just not to waste time, Your Honour, because

16 in that report it was stated that Ramiz Delalic executed one of his

17 soldiers. Do you remember that report? You can be shown it again, Mr.

18 Delalic, if you are not quite clear.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, if it assists, I don't mind my

20 learned friend reading the passage to the witness so that -- to remind him

21 of what's being said.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have seen this report already.

23 MS. CHANA: Yes.

24 JUDGE LIU: And we are familiar with those allegations. Here we

25 just put a simple question to this witness.

Page 108


2 Q. Do you remember that, Mr. Delalic, when this particular report

3 stated, this is Zankovic's report to Jasarevic saying that you executed a

4 soldier, and this is obviously in connection with when you saw the Zadro

5 brothers.

6 A. If I'm not mistaken, that document contains two different

7 allegations. One is that I shot one of my own soldiers, and the other is

8 about the alleged murder of Ivica, a Croat, who was with Zulfikar. I'm

9 not sure which one you mean.

10 Q. I'm talking about you executing a soldier, and perhaps I should

11 put entire question to you so as to be quite clear what direction I'm

12 taking. Did you in fact execute a soldier; that's the question?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So to that extent, the report would not be accurate. Is that --

15 would that be --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, the other document counsel for the Defence

18 showed you was this Cesko document, a letter written to the Defence by

19 Cesko and this is in respect to inquiries by learned Defence counsel. And

20 this was in regard of whether Halilovic gave an order to you to take Cesko

21 trench-digging and all the other things that happened. Now, do you

22 remember that order or would you like to see -- do you remember that

23 letter or would you like to see it again? Because a question I would like

24 to ask you in respect of that particular letter is this: Is there

25 anything in the letter to suggest that Halilovic did not give such an

Page 109

1 order?

2 A. You see, at the time what people were saying, this Cesko was a

3 handsome man, if you like, in some way. And at the time what people were

4 saying was that he was having an affair of some sorts with Mrs. Dika. I

5 think that was the most important reason why Sefer Halilovic had issued an

6 order for this man to be taken trench-digging. He wasn't standing in his

7 way otherwise. He had a private business throughout the war, and even if

8 he was mobilised at one point, it's not something that I'm aware of. I

9 know he was never sent to any of the front lines. But that was the reason

10 usually given for the fact that Sefer Halilovic had issued an order for

11 him to be taken to dig trenches.

12 Q. And would this be an oral order or a written order, just to be

13 quite clear again, of course?

14 A. It was an oral order.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I don't intend to be very long.

17 Q. The other thing you were asked by learned counsel for the Defence

18 were that -- this is in respect of the ethnic composition of your brigade,

19 the 9th Motorised Brigade, and you said to the question that soldiers were

20 good people and it was a multi-ethnic unit, this was the proposition put

21 to you and you got along together to the extent -- there was tolerance and

22 friendship among the Serbs, Croats, and Muslim soldiers. You said in

23 response to that question: "To the extent it was possible."

24 Now, I was wondering whether you would like to elaborate on what

25 you meant, "to the extent it was possible."

Page 110

1 A. Well, at the time in Sarajevo, there were many people getting

2 killed because of the shelling and there were many children getting killed

3 all the time, civilians in general. There was a concern that - what shall

4 I call it? - there could be an execution or massacre of these soldiers.

5 Usually when you have a crime happening, you're probably familiar with the

6 various types of crimes against civilians that occurred as a result of the

7 shelling. There was a concern felt by the brigade that there would be

8 revenge against these soldiers because sometimes the soldiers' brothers or

9 children were among those who were killed; that's why great care was taken

10 to prevent the revenge killings. The reason was that there was a large

11 number of Serbs who remained in Sarajevo.

12 Q. Did you -- do you have any examples yourself when there were what

13 you just referred to as "revenge killings"?

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it should be -- excuse me. It should

15 be made clear whether my friend is talking about within the 9th Brigade or

16 including other brigades.

17 JUDGE LIU: I think this question should be confined to in the 9th

18 Brigade.

19 MS. CHANA: Indeed, Your Honour.

20 Q. In the 9th Brigade, your brigade.

21 A. Well, you see, there were attempts which were foiled. There were

22 cases where family members of our soldiers were among those who were

23 killed. In the area of responsibility of the 9th Motorised Brigade there

24 were attempts to execute some people; however, all these attempts were

25 foiled.

Page 111

1 MS. CHANA: Sorry, I was distracted for a minute, Your Honours.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, the other question that you were asked by learned

3 counsel for the Defence was as to where Sefer Halilovic was before the

4 soldiers set off -- the unit chosen set off to Herzegovina, and you

5 replied to his question as to where was Sefer at that time. You

6 said: "Sefer went there before to carry out the preparations down there."

7 Now, could you try to assist the Judges as to what kind of

8 preparations would a commander undertake in the theatre of future combat

9 activity before a military operation such as Neretva 93?

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, that didn't arise out of

11 cross-examination. The question there concerns something quite

12 different, which was: Where was Sefer Halilovic? Not what he was doing.

13 And it's too late to be asking what a commander might get up to on the

14 terrain.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that will be a very big question for the witness

16 to answer.

17 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, perhaps I can limit it to what he thought

18 Sefer Halilovic -- what preparations Sefer Halilovic was making. It does

19 arise from --

20 JUDGE LIU: You may ask about the location where Mr. Halilovic was

21 at that time, because if you ask about the whole preparations for a

22 campaign, for a military action, that is a big question.

23 MS. CHANA: I stand guided by Your Honours.

24 Q. Do you know where Sefer Halilovic was as you went, as you said,

25 making preparations for the operation?

Page 112

1 A. He must have been at Jablanica. Because of the comprehensive

2 nature and the sheer size of the operation, he had to be at Jablanica.

3 Before the units left Sarajevo, this applies particularly to that area,

4 the Neretva River valley, I don't believe that anyone else could have made

5 contact with those units, save for Sefer Halilovic. It was on account of

6 the comprehensive nature of the job in the area that he simply had to be

7 there, that and everything else.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Delalic for that. I'd like now to take you

9 to the one final area and I'd like to give you an opportunity to comment

10 on this. You have been cross-examined at some length on your 2nd December

11 interview to the Sarajevo cantonal court to Ibrahim Hadzic. And there

12 have been several contradictions or apparent contradictions pointed out to

13 you. Now, Mr. Delalic, one of the reasons you put forward to the Your

14 Honours was the reason why there are these contradictions, that these were

15 not your words but they were of the judge himself. And one reason you

16 said was because you had quarrelled with the judge. I'd like you please

17 to assist you -- Their Honours by telling us the nature of this quarrel

18 and were there any other reasons? And this is your opportunity to tell

19 Their Honours why it was so.

20 A. Immediately after I appeared in court and I had been brought in by

21 the police early in the morning, I had been asleep at home, the police

22 came to take me away. Brought me to the court building. I was made to

23 stay in the room for about one or two hours. And at the very outset I was

24 becoming fidgety. This was not the usual practice. There should have

25 been a summons or something like that to call me to appear before this

Page 113

1 tribunal, but there was none of that. So the first thing that angered me

2 when I arrived in the court building, I had a right to be legally

3 represented by counsel. But my counsel who is present here today was busy

4 elsewhere on a different job and I requested to have a reprieve of several

5 hours until my counsel was available or perhaps to postpone the interview

6 for an entire day. I was not willing to provide any statements in the

7 absence of my lawyer. This was refused. And although I was entitled to

8 have my counsel beside me, he started taking a statement from me, having

9 ordered the typist to start with my personal information. I opposed this.

10 I refused to talk about it until I had a lawyer present. I had asked him

11 previously whether I was entitled to this, to legal representation, and he

12 said that I was. But since my lawyer was not there, we could just

13 continue our interview. I wasn't familiar enough with the law and I

14 believe that he was right and that indeed he was entitled to start the

15 interview. So I started telling him about certain events in relation to

16 Grabovica. I'm not sure the interpreter is catching up.

17 The judge did not understand what the word "hierarchy" meant in a

18 military context. So that was the first thing we clashed over. What was

19 recorded was a different thing altogether and then -- there were two

20 concepts being used, hierarchy and resubordination and our clash was about

21 these two concepts. He simply didn't know what the word "resubordination"

22 meant; he wasn't familiar with the concept. It wasn't part of his

23 language. So he recorded an entire sentence that I didn't like and

24 something that I didn't say to begin with, something about resubordinating

25 my unit to Zulfikar Alispago, and the way he had it recorded in the

Page 114

1 transcript was entirely different. I tried to explain to him what the

2 word "resubordination" meant. He attacked me, telling me that I -- he

3 would not stand to be taught by me how to do his job. I asked him to

4 change this word, "resubordination," and some other sentences, too, but he

5 refused and we clashed and we started arguing.

6 Q. But you signed, nevertheless, the statement?

7 A. Well, I was supposed to under the law. I had to give this

8 statement; there's no doubt about that. However, it was about the manner

9 in which he wanted this statement taken, and I refused to agree. I asked

10 for the interview to be postponed again, to be delayed, and I asked to

11 have my lawyer present, but he refused. So I continued giving my

12 statement. And at one point I asked not to provide these explanations to

13 him, but rather that the typist should write down verbatim what I was

14 saying, word-for-word, and not through the judge, because how it worked is

15 I gave a statement to the judge and the judge would repeat this for the

16 benefit of the typist. So what I asked to be done is for the typist to

17 record my words, not the judge's words. So an argument ensued, and after

18 the whole thing was over, my lawyer arrived and by way of demonstration I

19 signed the statement. I didn't slam the door, because they allege that I

20 had smashed the door, which wasn't true. I just fled the room. But the

21 statement was never completed.

22 Which judge was it? You'll probably want to know. This judge did

23 not meet the requirements that were later applied in order to be

24 re-elected as a judge. This man is nothing now. He's selling candy on

25 the streets of Sarajevo.

Page 115

1 Q. Mr. Delalic, I was actually referring to the Ibrahim, whatever his

2 name is, Hadzic's judgement. Are you talking about somebody else now?

3 What you've just said about this judge as selling candy on the streets.

4 We just want the record to be clear. Are you talking about another judge

5 or are you talking about Ibrahim, this last sentence you just said?

6 A. I am talking about this judge who heard me on that occasion. I

7 think it was Ibrahim Hadzic. He took my statement on Grabovica when I

8 gave this statement before the cantonal or municipal court.

9 Q. Thank you very much, Delalic.

10 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, that would be my re-examination.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

12 Judge El Mahdi, do you have questions?

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 [Interpretation] Witness, in your reply you stated, and I will

16 quote you: "I did prepare a letter, needless to say," end of quote. This

17 related to the time before you came to this Tribunal to testify. So I

18 wonder how you prepared yourself. Do you have any memos, do you have any

19 notes or things you had drafted at the time we are interested in?

20 A. You see, I am glad you're asking me this. I didn't say that I had

21 written a letter; I said that in some way I had to prepare because I

22 believe that once I appeared before this Tribunal -- or rather, I believed

23 that the investigators of this Tribunal were already in possession of

24 everything that one needed to know about these incidents. I am absolutely

25 convinced that no one would stand a chance lying before this Tribunal. A

Page 116

1 lot of these documents were mislaid and a lot of these documents were

2 handed over by me to the investigators. A lot of the documents were taken

3 away from me. I tried to prepare myself in order not to contradict

4 myself. I value this Tribunal and hold it in very high esteem. I did not

5 want to end up giving untruthful testimony before this Tribunal, and

6 that's why I needed to prepare in some way. Before each of the statements

7 I gave, I would talk about the gist of what went on. But now, I really

8 had to prepare because it was suggested to me that details would be

9 discussed before this Trial Chamber. So in a way I tried to prepare

10 myself. I tried to make the bits and pieces stick, so as not to be

11 confused once I had to render my version of events. I wanted to make sure

12 that I would be honest and forthright in giving my statement.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

14 [In English] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Any questions out of the Judge's question? It seems none.

17 At this stage are there any documents to tender? From the side of

18 the Prosecution?

19 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honours. We have some. MFI 415 and MFI

20 419, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 Are there any objections?

23 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. I've just looked -- I've just lost my

24 note of what those were. One of them is the tape, I take it.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well -- maybe since we are sitting here for a week, so

Page 117

1 it's very difficult to trace those documents at this moment. So maybe we

2 could defer the admission of documents until a later stage. And the

3 Prosecution's tendering documents is on the table, and I hope the Defence,

4 which is more confusing to me, should submit us with a list as well as to

5 the Prosecution. Maybe next Monday we could come back to visit this

6 issue.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour, could I just for

8 the record indicate the ones that there are. There's MFI 420, the Hadzic

9 judgement; the Zadro statements admitted; 422 is Dani article; 423, the

10 Vildana Selimbegovic letter; 414, the Cesko letter; 425, the letter from

11 Omerbegovic; 426, the --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. Thank you.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: I apologise.

14 I'll return to 426, the Dahic judgement; 427, this witness's own

15 judgement in 1994; and MFI 428, the letter from Mr. Baltic.

16 Can I indicate I'm going to consider the matter of the letter from

17 Mr. Baltic, it was obtained in haste and the learned Prosecutor has

18 pointed out an error in terms of that so that we need to clarify whether

19 the witness has -- whether Mr. Baltic has made an error as to which

20 brigade he is talking about or whether in fact he is talking about the 9th

21 Mountain Brigade which was a unit within the 1st Corps, although that was

22 based outside. So we will consult about that and we will be ready to

23 respond on Monday morning, if that is suitable as well.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 So I think the same rule also applies to the Prosecution.

Page 118

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour, I make it quite easy for the Defence

2 counsel so they know my view on the matter. I would object to all the

3 other documents but not the letters from potential witnesses. But the

4 others I have no objection to, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: I see. So you mean you object to document 428, but as

6 to the others, there's no objections.

7 MS. CHANA: Yes, and the Cesko, the Cesko -- all the three

8 letters, Your Honour, which have come have witnesses, the Cesko and this

9 Sadika --

10 JUDGE LIU: 423?

11 MS. CHANA: 425.

12 JUDGE LIU: 425.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: I think -- so 424, 425, and 428?

14 MS. CHANA: Yes, those are the three letters.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Cesko, Omerbegovic, and Baltic.

16 JUDGE LIU: So I believe I could make a decision at this moment.

17 The other documents are admitted into the evidence. The three letters are

18 still pending there until Monday.

19 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

20 to give your evidence, and we really wish you a very pleasant trip back

21 home. When we adjourn, Madam Usher will show you out of this courtroom.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to thank the Trial Chamber

23 for hearing me out, and I wish you every success in your work.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 The last matter, that is the proofing notes for the next witness.

Page 119

1 It seems to me that it is impossible for the Prosecution to furnish that

2 proofing notes a little bit earlier. So we'll ask the court deputy to

3 look territory possibility if that we could sit in the afternoon on Monday

4 so that the Defence could have the whole morning, the whole period of

5 morning, to prepare their case. But I hope that the parties will get

6 informed about this possibility in a timely fashion.

7 So I wish everybody a pleasant weekend. The hearing is adjourned.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.27 p.m., to

9 be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of May, 2005,

10 at 2.15 p.m.