Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 887

1 Monday, 12 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we invite the Prosecution to continue the examination of

11 Witness 58, I'd like to briefly and quickly deal with a few matters.

12 First, order of witnesses. I do understand that -- let me just --

13 not knowing whether matters will change.

14 The witness at present testifying is Witness 58. The next witness

15 would be Witness 19, if I understood well, Mr. Re. Is that 19 from the

16 list ...

17 No, no, no, I'm making a mistake. The next one would be witness

18 9, and the witness after that would be, then, Witness 19. Is that ...

19 And then if there would remain any time, although the Prosecution

20 is not in a position to cross-examine the witness, that they reluctantly

21 would accept that the Chamber, in order to avoid whatever gap, to have

22 Witness 8 as the witness to testify after that. Is that well understood?

23 MR. RE: I apologise, Your Honour. Witness 19 would be the

24 witness' pseudonym, who would be followed by witness number 8 -- I'm

25 sorry. Sorry, the confusion is between the order -- the witness number on

Page 888

1 the list and the witness pseudonym in relation to the pre-trial protective

2 measures.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm talking now about the tentative order of

4 testimony, which -- the next witness would be Witness number 64, tentative

5 order of testimony, as filed, number 9.

6 MR. RE: That's right.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then after that, we'd have sequence number --

8 yes, I'm -- sequence number 29.

9 MR. RE: Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Which -- is that -- and that's witness with pseudonym

11 19 and Witness number 88. Three numbers for one witness.

12 MR. RE: The next one was Witness number 27 in order of testimony,

13 who is Witness 87 and has the pseudonym Witness 4.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I have a different first name for that witness, 27.

15 First name starts with an A; whereas 29, first name starts with an R.

16 MR. RE: That's correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It would be 27?

18 MR. RE: That was in the proposed order of testimony.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's pseudonym 4?

20 MR. RE: Correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness number 87. That's different from what I had

22 on my list, and I see the Defence being rather confused as well. You sort

23 that out during -- that witness, you sort it out during the next break, so

24 that all parties have a similar witness on their mind.

25 And then finally, of course, we have the issue with the witness

Page 889

1 who was in the tentative order of witnesses number 8, where there seems to

2 be disclosure issues, where the Defence would be reluctant even to see --

3 to hear him testifying this week, but at least not -- would be in a

4 position to cross-examine.

5 MR. EMMERSON: We were able to make some progress by agreement on

6 the handling of that witness, and subject, of course, to the Trial

7 Chamber's views, the proposal is that he would not be called in chief

8 before Thursday but that the Defence would then be in a position, if the

9 evidence-in-chief completed within Thursday, to move directly to

10 cross-examine.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that --

12 MR. EMMERSON: We could hear the witness from Thursday --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And even -- well, the cross-examination could

14 take place on either later Thursday or Friday. Let me just see.

15 MR. EMMERSON: And I think Mr. Re --

16 JUDGE ORIE: He's been scheduled in chief for two hours, so that

17 would mean the cross-examination could even start on Thursday.

18 MR. EMMERSON: It's quite possible. And I think Mr. Re may have

19 other crime base witnesses potentially lined up as well.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you tried to agree on whether we're

21 talking about witness with pseudonym 4 or 19, that is, the order of

22 testimony number 27 or 29, and Witness number 87 or 88, it's all which one

23 we could expect.

24 MR. RE: Yes. 29 was first, followed by 27. I indicated --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Followed by 27, then.

Page 890

1 MR. RE: Yes. I am referring -- when I talk about these numbers,

2 I'm referring to the list we filed on the 2nd of March of this year --


4 MR. RE: -- which I thought was the definitive consolidated list.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.

6 MR. RE: Might I also raise at this point, and I did speak to

7 my -- at least one Defence lawyer on the weekend and sent a letter to the

8 others in this -- or an e-mail in these terms: At the moment, in terms of

9 witness preparation and catching up and ensuring we have the smoothest

10 flow, the proceedings may benefit if we didn't sit on Friday this week,

11 which would allow the Prosecution to get all the crime base witnesses

12 together and then do the others in perhaps a -- "logical" is probably the

13 wrong word, but --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, I do understand, and, of course,

15 finally you make your -- you make your assessments of what is most

16 efficient. At the same time, Friday is four hours in court available to

17 the Prosecution to present its case. I mean, dates not sitting are still

18 part of time available for the Prosecution to present its case. It's four

19 hours from 125, unless there are very specific reasons. But usually

20 non-sitting means time available to present evidence which is not used.

21 MR. RE: I understand that. But Your Honours saw last week there

22 were some difficulties which I foreshadowed earlier about having all the

23 witnesses here and in an order in which they were coming. Your Honour

24 realises that -- the Bench realises that three witnesses were scheduled

25 for last week and this week just didn't arrive. The difficulty that's

Page 891

1 presented us with is having to bring other witnesses forward before we

2 were in the best position, and the Defence of course, to

3 examination-in-chief and cross-examine.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what we achieve this week, and then

5 let's see how far we come until Friday, and then we'll further discuss

6 whether it's -- your suggestion will be followed or whether we'll not take

7 into account that Friday. Yes.

8 Then anything else as far as the order of witnesses is concerned?

9 If not, there is a request for a subpoena that was filed on the 9th of

10 March; the witnesses, it's suggested, to appear between the 19th and 23rd

11 of March. I understand the subpoena to say, You, Witness, you should be

12 here at that and that time. And how much time the testimony takes is

13 another matter. And not -- of course, you can indicate that it will take

14 several days or more than one day or -- but are you able to -- do you

15 think that it's manageable to get a witness here on the 19th? Because if

16 you say he has to be here between the 19th and the 23rd of March, that

17 means that it must be feasible to get him here on the 19th.

18 MR. RE: The Prosecution is in a position to facilitate as best as

19 it can someone coming within a week. However, we're asking the Trial

20 Chamber to -- and, of course, we wouldn't expect you to do otherwise, but

21 to take a practical approach here in terms of issuing of subpoenas,

22 because there's obviously a time delay, and we have no control over how

23 subpoenas are issued and when a person is actually brought to The Hague.

24 So in that respect, what we're -- what we're more after is a range of

25 dates when the person comes to the court and then is told he'll testify --

Page 892

1 JUDGE ORIE: But when do you expect him to arrive? The 22nd,

2 would that be good enough?

3 MR. RE: Um.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then he failed to be here on the 19th, and he's

5 therefore not obeying to the subpoena, isn't it?

6 MR. RE: The 22nd, the 23rd, we have the British military expert

7 scheduled to testify. That's a date we can't -- we can't move that

8 forward.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I want you to think about what you expect from a

10 witness. If I say to a witness, you're asked to appear between the 19th

11 and the 23rd of March, would that mean that could he come in on the 22nd

12 and say, Here I am, and has he then obeyed to the order or not, or -- I

13 mean, why not find the first day on which you both want him to be here and

14 consider it possible that he is here, reasonably possible, and then say,

15 That's when you have to be here, and then we'll hear your testimony in

16 that -- on that day and/or the days immediately after that.

17 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what Your Honour was

18 saying. Now I recall, we did say between those dates.


20 MR. RE: What we mean is to appear on the first date, to appear in

21 The Hague before the Tribunal on the first date --


23 MR. RE: -- and to testify either on that date or the dates within

24 that range.


Page 893

1 MR. RE: It being, in a sense, a first-return date to ensure the

2 witness is here, and then saying, depending on some exigencies, but other

3 witnesses are here and testifying.


5 MR. RE: We want you to testify within that range of dates.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you want him to be subpoenaed to arrive on

7 the 19th, to be in court on the 19th, and then to stay as long as he's

8 needed on the dates after that.

9 MR. RE: That's right.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's clear. Yes. Do you think it's

11 feasible - today it's the 12th - 19th, any serious problem?

12 MR. RE: Not from the Prosecution's perspective.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, but if the witness has a problem, the Prosecution

14 has a problem as well because the witness is not here.

15 MR. RE: The problem is the witness might come voluntarily --

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you say I'm confident that this witness could be

17 here on 19th, in view of all practical problems, travel documents,

18 arrangements, et cetera, then we might consider to issue. And if you say,

19 Well, could be that there's a chance of 60 per cent that he'll not be able

20 to be here on the 19th but on the 20th, then rather subpoena him for the

21 20th. That's the kind of assessment I'm seeking.

22 MR. RE: I can never give any sort of guarantee that --

23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for a guarantee. I'm asking about an

24 assessment. I mean, if you say, it would be quite extraordinary if we did

25 not manage to get this and this and this on the 19th, it would be

Page 894

1 really -- well, if not really exceptional, then at least unusual that we

2 would not be able to manage that within one week, then no problem. If you

3 say, Well, there's a 50 per cent chance that he'll make it, then we have

4 to think about whether this is a wise thing to do or whether to take more

5 time.

6 MR. RE: I have put all the information before the Court that I

7 possibly can about this witness. We can facilitate the issuing of travel

8 documents, if necessary, before then, and we can facilitate the transfer

9 of those documents to the Serbian authorities to ensure that they're --

10 that they're issued in time.


12 MR. RE: I just can't take it any further.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No. Of course, what we'd like to hear is if you say

14 90 per cent chance that we'll make it or that the witness will make it,

15 then it's different from a 30 per cent chance. The Chamber is not very

16 much inclined to issue subpoenas on a 30 per cent chance; whereas the

17 Chamber might be well inclined to say, Well, if there's a -- well, most

18 likely he'll make it, then, of course, you could consider to issue a

19 subpoena for that day.

20 So what I'd like to hear from you, on the basis of your

21 experience, if you say, Well, most likely he'll be able to do it, or

22 serious doubts as to whether ...

23 MR. RE: I can't take it beyond saying --

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. I don't get an answer.

25 MR. RE: Your Honour, I can't give you an answer. I cannot give

Page 895

1 you a percentage of whether he will come or not. I can say we will

2 facilitate it and do everything we possibly can, but --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming you, but -- okay, you say I can't

4 answer your questions.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please note the overlap for

6 the interpreters.

7 MR. RE: Pretty high chance of it if Your Honours were to issue it

8 today. I can't -- beyond that, I can't give you a percentage. We can do

9 everything we can humanly do to get him here next week, on the Monday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is not a matter pending? That is, the

11 Defence has not taken a position, I think, in relation to the subpoena

12 requested for -- is there any objection requested or would you need more

13 time to --

14 MR. EMMERSON: There is no opposition to a subpoena application as

15 far as Mr. Haradinaj is concerned.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And I see two times nodding no; so therefore, it's

17 still possible, Mr. Re, to consider issuing a subpoena today. Of course,

18 the Defence not asking for more time. We'll consider the matter.

19 Yes. Last issue: The 2nd of March notification of clarification

20 of paragraph 89 of the indictment and request for leave to add a

21 clarification.

22 The Chamber is aware that the Defence has another two days to

23 respond. Do you at all intend to reply?


25 JUDGE ORIE: I see one time -- also nodding no?

Page 896


2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, you joined that, so that is clear, so the

3 therefore Chamber will not wait for a reply before considering the

4 request.

5 These were the procedural matters at this moment.

6 Mr. Re, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief of

7 Witness 58?

8 MR. RE: I am.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Are the protective measures in place, Madam

10 Registrar; that is, face distortion and pseudonym?

11 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

12 courtroom.

13 What was not on my list is that there was another request, which

14 is very recent, for protective measures. What -- the Chamber would not

15 grant two weeks for the Defence to respond, but when do you think you

16 could respond?

17 MR. EMMERSON: We can respond orally today. The application is

18 opposed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's on behalf of all three?

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Are we speaking with regard to the most recent

21 application?

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that application is opposed.

25 MR. HARVEY: By all three.

Page 897

1 JUDGE ORIE: By all three. That's clear. Then we'll take time

2 later this afternoon to look at the matter.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. Does the Chamber at any

4 point wish to have some oral presentation with regard to that opposition

5 or ...

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But since we now invite the witness to come in,

7 we'll do that at another moment.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/58 [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreters]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 58. I'd like to remind you

13 that you are still bound --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- by the solemn declaration you gave at the

16 beginning of your testimony last week, Friday. Mr. Re will now continue

17 his examination.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


20 Mr. Re, please proceed.

21 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]

22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 58.

23 A. Good afternoon.

24 Q. If you remember back to Friday, I'd asked you a lot of questions

25 about what happened in May, late May, 1998, when you and your family went

Page 898

1 to the mill?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And we got to the point where you were telling the Court about a

4 person called Aslan who was mistreating members of your family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Before I go further on that, I want you to tell the Court, tell

7 the Judges, what was the weather like when all that was happening?

8 A. It was raining and cold.

9 Q. Can you describe the type of rain?

10 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

11 Q. Describe the rain. Was it light rain, heavy rain, spotted rain?

12 Was it raining all the time, a little bit of the time? Clouds? What was

13 it?

14 A. It was raining, and it was cold.

15 Q. On Friday, I was asking you about this person Aslan that you saw

16 at the mill.

17 A. Yes. Yes, he came --

18 Q. Stop, stop. Did you know Aslan before?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How did you know him before?

21 A. I knew him from before because he lived before you enter

22 Gregovisht, I knew him.

23 Q. Do you know whether he has another name?

24 A. Aslan Luluni was his name.

25 Q. Was he in the KLA?

Page 899

1 A. Yes, he was.

2 Q. When you saw him on that day at the mill, was he armed?

3 A. Yes. Yes, he was. He was.

4 Q. What weapon --

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, if I might. I would ask Mr. Re not to

6 lead the witness.

7 MR. RE: I'm not sure how that's -- how asking whether someone is

8 armed is actually leading a witness. There are many answers to that. You

9 could say Yes, No, Don't know.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. I'll leave it for the moment, but I

11 think Mr. Re understands the import of my submission.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll leave it for the time being.

13 Mr. Re.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the counsel to turn

15 off the mic after finishing because there's a lot of noise.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. I asked you a moment ago what weapon he had.

18 A. They had all sorts of weapons, large, small. I didn't pay a lot

19 of attention. I had a lot on my mind, the care of my kids and everything.

20 They were crying; I was crying; my second sister-in-law was crying; all of

21 us were crying. So I don't remember very well. I can't tell you

22 precisely.

23 Q. What did he do to your sister-in-law?

24 A. They encircled us in a meadow before the mill, and he said, We

25 have to search you to see whether you have some arms or something. We

Page 900

1 said, We don't have anything you might think of.

2 Q. Okay.

3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, may I simply ask this: When questions

4 like that last one are put, Mr. Re make it clear, through the appropriate

5 form of words, which sister-in-law he is asking about.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, did your question cover either of them or

7 were you specifically -- because we have -- we have Witness 38 and a

8 second sister-in-law.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. No names. Just refer to either the sister-in-law who's 38 or the

11 second sister-in-law. Which sister-in-law were you referring to just

12 then?

13 A. I'm -- I was talking of the two of them, for the second and -- for

14 the elder and for the younger.

15 Q. Was their father there?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. What, if anything, happened to him?

18 A. He was trying to explain, to talk with them. They were shouting

19 at him.

20 Q. Who is the "they" that were shouting at them?

21 A. They were many. I heard only Aslan shouting. I think I told you

22 once, there were many of them, but I didn't recognise all of them,

23 because, as I said, I was taking care of my children and I was very

24 scared, myself.

25 Q. You said that Aslan had searched your second sister-in-law's bag.

Page 901

1 Did Aslan do anything to the second sister-in-law's father?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. What did he do?

4 A. He wanted to rape my second sister-in-law. I didn't let him. I

5 cried. He searched her bag and then picked up the things. And I took my

6 kids and the wife of my father-in-law and my sister-in-law and we went a

7 little further. And I can't remember very well because I was scared.

8 Q. You said he wanted to rape your second sister-in-law. What --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honours.


11 MR. GUY-SMITH: The question that was propounded to the witness

12 was not answered. I understand that this is information that Mr. Re

13 wishes to elicit, and I certainly have no objection to him proceeding to

14 elicit information in whatever way he chooses to see fit. However, for

15 purposes of a record that needs review, when a question is asked and an

16 answer given is not to the question asked, it causes a great deal of

17 confusion. And I don't want to be jumping up and saying that the answer

18 is non-responsive, but I would appreciate it if, when such things happen,

19 Mr. Re guide his witness in an appropriate fashion so that we don't have

20 this occur.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any rule that if a witness is not very

22 responsive to the question, that if the party questioning the witness

23 decides, rather, to proceed than to further assist on receiving an answer,

24 is there any rule, to your knowledge, which obliges the party to do so?

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I know of no rule which would oblige the party

Page 902

1 necessarily to do so; however, for the purposes of having an orderly

2 transcript, one from which you, as a Chamber, can reflect and one from

3 which we, as advocates, can argue, I think, would be of some benefit.

4 Because if I were, at this point, with regard to this particular issue,

5 discuss this evidence as it relates to the father-in-law, then you, as a

6 Chamber, could rightfully criticise me with regard to the fact that there

7 was no evidence in that regard.

8 So what I'm trying to do is establish a basis upon which we have

9 some kind of order. That's all I'm looking for, Your Honour, order.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider to what extent it's just in the

11 discretion of the examining party to refrain from further insisting on

12 getting an answer on the specific question.

13 Now, I also want to respond to an earlier matter. You said that

14 you would not persist, you said, on whether a question to whether a

15 certain person was armed was leading. If a witness -- Friday - and I

16 refer you to page 883, line 17 - when talking about the KLA members said

17 that they were armed, then I really have difficulties in understanding to

18 what extent the witness could be seduced by a question of this leading

19 character to introduce something the witness would not have introduced

20 otherwise. That's really totally not understandable to me.

21 Mr. Guy-Smith, you did not insist on the matter, so there's no

22 ruling, but I just want to explain to you that I had difficulties in

23 understanding the objection that you finally did not make.

24 Mr. Re, at this moment the Chamber will not insist you on -- will

25 not insist on you trying to get an answer to the question. We'll consider

Page 903

1 how important it is and we'll consider your duties in this respect.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. You said a moment ago he wanted to rape your second sister-in-law.

5 What did he do?

6 A. Are you asking me about the elder or the younger? Just make it

7 clear, please.

8 Q. The second sister-in-law, the one you referred to earlier, not

9 Witness 38.

10 A. Yes. I told you the first day as well. I didn't allow him to

11 rape her, because he attempted to rape her but I didn't let him, so he

12 didn't rape her.

13 Q. What did he do? What did you see him do?

14 A. I didn't see him any -- I didn't see anything else. I just took

15 my kids. They didn't do anything to her after that.

16 Q. You said he attempted to rape her. Why do you say that he

17 attempted to rape her? What did you see that makes you say that?

18 A. I didn't say they raped her. They attempted to rape her, but I

19 didn't let him do that. I didn't say they raped; I just simply said they

20 attempted to rape her.

21 Q. What did he do to her that made you think that he was trying to

22 rape her?

23 A. I didn't let him -- she put on her clothes and I took her with me,

24 and I was crying and shouting, and I didn't let him. She put on her

25 clothes. And you should make it clear to all that they didn't rape her;

Page 904

1 they just tried to rape her. I want to tell here the truth. I want to

2 tell you what really happened.

3 Q. All right. We understand that you just want to confine yourself

4 to what you saw. You said, "She put her clothes on ..."

5 A. Yes, this is what I said.

6 Q. Tell the Court about her clothes. You said she put them on. Were

7 they off?

8 A. Can you repeat it? I am not clear.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Re, I can interrupt.

10 You told that your sister-in-law put her clothes on. Could you

11 tell us, she had taken the clothes off or someone else?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She put on the clothes herself.

13 They wanted to rape her but I didn't let them.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. It might be not easy for you to

15 talk about it, because you might have, from what I understand, have found

16 it an embarrassing situation. But this Chamber would like to hear some

17 of -- some details. If you say, My sister put her clothes on, and you

18 wanted to prevent her to be raped, could you tell us, she was undressed --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they didn't rape her. She

20 was dressed. They wanted to undress her, but I didn't allow them. So I

21 wanted to know that I didn't say they took her clothes off. Wanted to,

22 but didn't do it, and they didn't do anything else to her. I'm telling

23 you things which are correct, not things which didn't happen.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did they touch her in an attempt to take her

25 clothes off or did they say to her that she had to take her clothes off?

Page 905

1 Could you give us a bit more detail on what exactly happened?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said so, but I didn't let her

3 take off her clothes and she didn't take off her clothes. They only

4 emptied her bag, to search it, but nothing else. They didn't do anything

5 else to my second sister-in-law. I am saying to you what really happened

6 but nothing else. And then I went a little further away with my kids and

7 my sister-in-law and we stayed there for a while.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me stop you for a second. You said that

9 is -- you said, "They didn't do anything else to my second sister-in-law."

10 Now I'd like to move to the sister-in-law --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness 38. Did they -- was she all the time

13 dressed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said the same thing the first

15 time. I don't know what she said, but I know only what I am saying to

16 you. I came here to say what I know.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps a very simple question: Did you

18 at any moment at the mill see your sister-in-law number 38 at any moment

19 undressed, whether voluntarily or whether forced or whether --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't pay much attention. I left

21 for 10 or 15 minutes. This is all I wanted to tell you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you: Would you feel ashamed if she

23 would have been undressed? Would you find that embarrassing, even to tell

24 us?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I am telling you the truth. I

Page 906

1 don't know what she has said. I told you what I saw. I cannot say things

2 which I didn't see. After staying there for a while, as I said, we took

3 to the mountains, through the bushes, through the hedges, and then I don't

4 know other things. I can't tell you things which I don't know, which

5 didn't happen. What she told you, I don't know, but I am telling you what

6 I remember. What I don't remember, I am not saying.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's the right thing to do.

8 Mr. Re, you may proceed.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if that's correct or

10 not, but I'm telling you what I know.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. In that group of people, was anyone tied up?

13 A. I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't paying attention. As I said,

14 I was moving along a road with bushes and hedges. I was looking after my

15 children, who were hungry, so I wasn't paying attention.

16 Q. I asked you a little while ago what they did to your

17 sister-in-law's father and you said they attempted to rape your second

18 sister-in-law. Now, I want you to think only about the father. What did

19 they do to the father?

20 A. They were shouting at him. They were maltreating those two. And

21 as I said, I wasn't paying attention, really. They were maltreating them.

22 There were a lot of people and I don't remember everything exactly. I was

23 ill --

24 Q. All right. Just try and focus on -- concentrate on the little

25 thing I'm asking you, all right?

Page 907

1 A. Go on.

2 Q. You said they were maltreating the two of them. Now, tell the

3 Judges about the way they maltreated the father. What did they do to him?

4 A. Well, I really don't know how to describe it. I forgot part of it

5 and time has gone by. They were shouting at him. Then they took us to a

6 place. We stayed there in the mountains.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Stop. The father was all I'm interested in,

8 okay? Nothing more, okay? Good-o.

9 Now, I'm going to ask you about how long you stayed around the

10 mill for. How long were you there for?

11 A. Not very long. I don't remember exactly, but it wasn't for too

12 long. Maybe until the 6th or 7th, or 6 or 7. I don't remember. As I

13 said, I haven't done much school.

14 Q. Okay. When you said -- I'm just interested in the amount of time

15 you spent there. Was it minutes, hours, days? How long did you stay

16 around the mill for?

17 A. Not very long. From 8.00 in the morning and it was then 4.00 or

18 5.00 or 7.00 or 8.00 when we set off towards the Jasiq mountain. This is

19 what I know. We didn't stay long at the mill.

20 Q. Was it your family members you told us about on Friday who went

21 with you towards the Jasiq mountain?

22 A. There were some Roma, a certain Jusuf, and another with his wife;

23 then the wife of my father-in-law and nobody else.

24 Q. What about your two sisters-in-law and the children?

25 A. And the children and my sister-in-law, we were all together.

Page 908

1 Q. Why did you go towards the Jasiq mountains?

2 A. Well, we were scared. We thought we would find some peace there.

3 We spent the night there out in the cold, in the rain, hungry, without any

4 food. We spent the night there, then the next day, we took to the road.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, your question was, and I invite the witness

6 also to listen carefully, your question was: "What about your two

7 sisters-in-law and the children?" And then, Witness 58, in your response,

8 you said: "And the children and my sister-in-law," not sisters-in-law.

9 Were they both there when you went towards Jasiq mountains, or was just

10 one of them there?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both of them were. We were all

12 together. Both of them were with us.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

14 MR. RE:

15 Q. You said you went there because you were scared. What were you

16 scared of?

17 A. I was scared because my children were crying. I wasn't feeling

18 very well at that time. We were all feeling that way. And then we spent

19 the night there at Jasiq mountain, and we left the next day.

20 Q. What was causing you the fear?

21 A. There were a lot of KLA. We were scared. We were hungry. We

22 didn't have any bread or water. Nothing at all.

23 Q. Were you afraid of the KLA?

24 A. Yes, by God I was.

25 Q. Why?

Page 909

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 Q. What was there for you to be scared of?

5 A. There were a lot of KLA and I was scared. We remained there in

6 the mountains, and as I said, we were hungry, we didn't have any food. I

7 was scared; my children were scared; all of us were scared, because there

8 were a lot of them.

9 Q. You said you spent the night at Jasiq mountain and left the next

10 day. Where did you go to, and who were you with?

11 A. I left with my entire family, my husband's family, my

12 father-in-law, and then we in Gjocaj, near a shop or house, I don't know

13 what it was. There, there were many of them. They wanted to fire. And a

14 certain Gani from Istog didn't let them fire.

15 Q. I want you to tell the Court in more detail about what happened

16 then, okay? But just in a moment. Did this thing, when they wanted to

17 fire, did that happen the day after you spent the night at Jasiq mountain?

18 Just yes or no.

19 A. Yes, it was after the Jasiq mountain, after we left Jasiq

20 mountain.

21 Q. Was it the next day or a different day?

22 A. No, it was the following day, the morning when we left the

23 mountain. I don't know at what time exactly we left the Jasiq mountain.

24 Q. So the incident where they tried to fire at you, did that happen,

25 as far as you can remember, in the morning?

Page 910

1 A. At Jasiq? Are you referring to Jasiq or Gjocaj?

2 Q. At Gjocaj.

3 A. Yes. They wanted to fire there, that Gani that I mentioned, he

4 was from Istog, and he told them, Don't you dare fire, but then they said,

5 Yes, we should fire, we should kill them at all.

6 Q. Step by step, one thing at a time, and then everyone will know

7 what you're talking about; all right? Firstly, was it in the morning,

8 the afternoon, or the night, as best as you can remember?

9 A. No, no, it was in the morning, early in the morning, 6.00, 7.00,

10 or 8.00 in the morning.

11 Q. Where did you go to?

12 A. We went to the mountains. Gani didn't let them. We could hardly

13 walk, and we reached Batusha.

14 Q. How long did it take you, doing your best to remember, to get from

15 the mountain to where this happened?

16 A. Well, I don't know whether it was 7.00 or 8.00, and then it took

17 us quite -- I don't know what time it was exactly. Maybe it was 5.00 or

18 2.00. I really don't know.

19 Q. How did you get from Jasiq mountain to Gjocaj? Did you walk,

20 drive? How did you get there?

21 A. No, no, we went on foot. We went on foot to Batusha. We didn't

22 have any cars. We were on foot, on mountain paths.

23 Q. Where was it that they wanted to fire on you? I want you to

24 describe the area you went to.

25 A. You're referring to Gjocaj? It was in Gjocaj where they wanted to

Page 911

1 fire. This is what I said earlier. This Gani from Istog didn't let them

2 fire. He told them, Don't you dare, and they said, Well, these people

3 should be killed, but then he told them, No, don't shoot, and made them

4 move away.

5 Q. Let's go back to Gjocaj and what happened there. Tell the Court

6 about what the place looked like. Were there trees? Were there houses?

7 Was it in the mountains? Was it near a river? Whatever. Just tell the

8 Court what the area was, what sort of landscape it was.

9 A. You should know that I don't know exactly what it was, whether it

10 was a shop or a house, but I can tell you that there were a lot of them.

11 I don't know the exact number. As I said, this Gani didn't allow them to

12 fire, and we managed to reach Batusha.

13 Q. Don't talk about Gani. I just want you to tell the Court where it

14 was. You said there might be a shop or a house; okay?

15 A. Yes. It is Gani from Istog.

16 Q. Was it outside or inside that this attempted shooting happened?

17 A. Are you referring to Gjocaj or somewhere else or to the house?

18 Q. I'm talking about Gjocaj. All I'm talking about at the moment is

19 Gjocaj; okay? Nothing else.

20 A. Okay. So it's all about Gjocaj. They were outside, they weren't

21 inside. They were all outside.

22 Q. Who was there?

23 A. There were a lot. I don't know them. I wasn't looking at them.

24 I encircled my own children and I wasn't watching them, looking at them,

25 at all.

Page 912

1 Q. A lot of who? Were they civilians or soldiers?

2 A. They were soldiers. They were all KLA. I don't know them, but

3 they were a lot. So this person from Istog didn't allow them to fire and

4 he said to them, Don't you dare imprison them or do anything to them.

5 Q. Tell the Court about the -- what the area looked like, what the

6 land or the earth looked like, where you were. Were there trees,

7 mountains, rivers, fences, stones? What did the area look like? Just

8 describe it for the Court.

9 A. It was kind of a road. I wasn't paying attention whether there

10 were apple trees or other trees around. But it was a road that takes you

11 to Batusha. There were trees, there was a shop, there was a house, but I

12 wasn't paying attention whether there were trees around. All I wanted to

13 do is make this road and leave.

14 Q. You've told us a few times about the person from Istog stopping

15 the KLA from shooting. I want you to tell the Court, to describe, where

16 you were and where the KLA were. What happened?

17 Firstly, how far away were the KLA soldiers from you?

18 A. Well, three or five steps away. They weren't very far.

19 Q. What did they do?

20 A. They wanted to fire, so this person from Istog told them, Don't

21 shoot --

22 Q. Okay. They wanted to fire. What made you think they wanted to

23 fire? What were they doing that gave you the -- that told you they wanted

24 to fire?

25 A. They directed their weapons up. This is how it was.

Page 913

1 Q. Who were you there with?

2 A. We wanted to go to Batusha, so all of us were there, my

3 sisters-in-law, my father-in-law --

4 Q. What I'm after is who were the --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I think there's an indication from behind that

7 there may be a translation problem. May I make inquiries to see what it

8 is and, if it's a significant one, to correct it in due course?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, but you're instructed not to

10 clarify issues in the presence of the witness with her earphones off,

11 because it might have a suggestive effect which is, of course, not --

12 No, no, no, the witness can -- I don't know what language

13 Mr. Haradinaj is speaking at this moment, but --

14 MR. EMMERSON: He's speaking in the English that he's capable to

15 manage.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You can consult with him. There's no problem.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

19 MR. RE:

20 Q. You said: "All of us were there, my sisters-in-law, my

21 father-in-law," you. Who else?

22 A. There were some people from Junik, a Jusufa and Mihani, but they

23 stopped them, they told them, You can stay here but they cannot. So they

24 stopped there and we proceeded.

25 Q. Who did the KLA try to -- or look like they were going to shoot?

Page 914

1 A. Us, the entire family that was with the elderly sister-in-law.

2 Q. When they had --

3 A. It was only our family.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I interpose a slight

5 objection at this point in time.

6 Mr. Re has repeatedly talked about "the KLA" doing something, like

7 shooting or attempting to do other things. There are individuals who are

8 involved in this case. Those individuals have not been identified. I

9 think for purposes of the trial proceedings, as well as for purposes of

10 clarification, the use of this particular term, and I understand that

11 there's quite an assumption being made here, but I think we need a bit

12 more identification with regard to the individuals who were involved so

13 that the Chamber can make a determination of whether or not the

14 characterisation made by Mr. Re is, in fact, ultimately accurate when

15 reviewing the entirety of the evidence. And I understand the term has

16 been used for quite some period of time, but I think that it would be

17 important for the Chamber to have an understanding of the identities of

18 the individuals, or some other form of an understanding of who the

19 individuals were who she was involved with at this point in time so that

20 an independent determination can be made as to whether or not, in fact,

21 this was KLA activity, which is actually something which is somewhat

22 central to this case.


24 Mr. Re, until now, the witness has explained on several occasions

25 people she didn't know but she identified for the reasons stated by her as

Page 915

1 KLA or KLA members. If we enter ever into a new -- a new context or a new

2 group, would you please verify whether the basis on which the witness is

3 talking about KLA is the same as she did before, or whether there's -- or

4 whether she happened to know the persons involved. Yes.

5 By the way, Mr. Guy-Smith, approximately I think you used

6 something like 18 or 20 lines. I think the same could have been said in

7 three.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. Just to help the Judges, you said they were all KLA. How do you

12 know they were KLA?

13 A. You could recognise them because they spoke Albanian and they had

14 the KLA insignia. There were no Serbs there. There was not a single Serb

15 left; they had all left.

16 Q. Let's go back to what they did to you. You said they had weapons

17 and your family was there. What did they say or do? Where were you and

18 your family and where were they? Just describe those things.

19 A. You are talking about my own family or my husband's family? I

20 think you're talking about my husband's family. We were all together. I

21 was with my husband's family. There was this cousin of my sister-in-law

22 and nobody else. I recounted the persons who were with us in the group.

23 Nobody else was there. I told you what I know. I cannot tell you what I

24 don't. What I remember.

25 Q. Just tell us what happened. You said they had weapons. Your

Page 916

1 family members were there, the KLA were there. What did they do?

2 A. They were sitting around there. I don't know what they were

3 doing. What can I tell you? They came up to us another time, saying what

4 to do, You should do this, you should do that, and then I don't know.

5 Then we left in the direction of Batusha.

6 Q. Witness, you said a little earlier that you thought they were

7 trying to shoot you. I want you to tell the Court about that. What did

8 they do? Just concentrate on that area. Tell the Court what happened.

9 What was it they did that made you think they were trying to shoot you?

10 A. Yes, they wanted to shoot us. They said, Who is the family of my

11 elder sister-in-law, we want to kill them, they said. And then this guy

12 from Istog, he said, No, you shouldn't shoot them, and they didn't. And

13 then we left the place. This is how it was.

14 Q. What were they doing with their weapons when they wanted to shoot

15 you?

16 A. What were they doing? I don't know what they were doing. They

17 threatened us and then I explained to you that this man from Istog saved

18 us. And then through the mountain route, we went to Batush and they

19 didn't fire at us. Then the army in Batush took us to Gjakov, and then

20 nobody else did anything to us, because nobody allowed them.

21 THE INTERPRETER: She's repeating the same sentence twice, three

22 times.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, let me try to clarify the issue. You

24 told us that they said that they wanted to shoot you. Was it just by

25 words or did they do anything more?

Page 917

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't do anything because that

2 guy didn't allow them. They wanted to shoot at us but they did not. This

3 person said, No, no, you should not kill them, and then they left us alone

4 and we left in the direction of Batush.

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it that they did not point their

6 weapons at you when they were stopped.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't do anything to us and we

8 left in the direction of Batush mountain. They left us alone. We walked

9 through the mountain and then arrived in Batush. This is all I remember,

10 what I'm telling you now.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Judge Orie, he's the Judge in the middle, he just asked you if

14 they -- he asked you whether they pointed their guns at you. I want you

15 to concentrate on that. You said they had weapons. Did they --

16 A. They pointed the guns, but this person did not allow them to shoot

17 at us. And then they lowered their weapons and didn't do anything to us.

18 This is a fact.

19 Q. Can you remember --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps I'd like to verify that.

21 I earlier said: "May I take it that they did not point the

22 weapons to you," but you now seem to say that they did point the weapons

23 to you but they were stopped to do anything further by this person.

24 Important is, if you just look at me for a second, if you'd just look at

25 me for a second.

Page 918

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, go on.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please look at me. If this is a weapon, my arm, was

3 it like that, or did they point it at you and they were stopped from

4 shooting?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They pointed their weapons. Maybe

6 you didn't listen to me carefully. I said to you before. But they

7 lowered their weapons only when this person told them not to shoot at us.

8 Maybe you didn't understand me right. I am repeating it to make it clear.

9 And then they left us alone after that, and then we followed this mountain

10 route and went to Batush, and then the Serbian army took us.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Maybe you can demonstrate. Can you stand up? Yes, up. Just

14 hold the guns like the KLA did at your family. Just demonstrate what they

15 did.

16 A. Like this, and then this guy yelled at them. We were sitting like

17 this. He did not let them shoot at us, and they didn't do anything to us.

18 Q. You said they pointed their guns. Show the Judge, who just asked

19 you the questions, with your arms, as if you're holding a gun. Pretend

20 you've got a gun in your hand; all right? Now, what did they do?

21 A. Like this. They wanted to shoot, and then this guy shouted at

22 them, and then they first raised their weapons and pointed them at us, and

23 then they lowered their weapons.

24 Q. Just do that pointing bit again. I want to describe what you just

25 did.

Page 919

1 A. They wanted to fire at us. This is how they made their hands.

2 And they rose their arms up, and then they lowered them again, and then

3 they let us alone.

4 MR. RE: Could the record reflect that it was a sort of a

5 classical shooting position from the shoulder.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's difficult, because there's not only face

8 distortion but also body distortion, to some extent. I think that it's

9 sufficiently reflected that the witness showed with her hands that at

10 least they went up in a -- I wouldn't say a fully horizontal position, but

11 at least at some moment there was some kind of a horizontal movement, and

12 then arms went down again. That's the most we can say.

13 Mr. Re, you may proceed. I don't know how much time you still

14 think you'd need for -- to finish your examination-in-chief.

15 MR. RE: Hopefully not long.


17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Please sit. Now, how many of them pointed their weapons at you in

19 the way you've just demonstrated?

20 A. What can I tell you? I don't remember very well. They were a

21 couple of steps away from us. Twenty minutes, I don't know. It's a long

22 time since then, and I was worried about my children.

23 Q. When I say numbers, are we talking about 1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 5?

24 How many?

25 A. The family of my elder sister-in-law?

Page 920

1 Q. No. How many KLA men pointed their weapons at you? More than

2 one?

3 A. They were many. No, no, they were many. I don't know. I don't

4 know how many exactly they were. I didn't know them.

5 Q. Okay. Now, next, was your family and you --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'd like to receive an answer to your last

7 question.

8 You said there were many KLA men. Could you tell us how many

9 among them did point their weapons at you and/or your family? Did they do

10 it, all? Was there ...

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were four, five, ten, I don't

12 know. But I do know that there were several. And a long time has passed

13 since then, but I cannot exactly tell you how many. Three to five. I

14 didn't pay much attention. I was frightened.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. When they were doing this, pointing their guns at you, wanting to

18 shoot you, where was your family? Was it sitting, standing, kneeling?

19 What were you doing?

20 A. We were standing. And then they didn't take us long. They

21 allowed us to leave. Maybe this all lasted 10 or 20 minutes.

22 Q. Why were you standing?

23 A. We were about to leave from Jasiq, to leave that place, because we

24 were frightened because they were shouting and yelling, and then we left.

25 That guy did not let them fire at us, and then they let us go.

Page 921

1 Q. When they were pointing --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, just for your information, the Chamber wants

3 you to finish the examination-in-chief before the break, and that's

4 another nine minutes.

5 MR. RE: I'm trying very hard.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Just for you to know that the Chamber has

7 decided that it should not take any longer.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. When they were pointing their guns at you, you said you were

10 standing. Were you standing in a circle, in a line, in clusters,

11 together? Just describe how you were standing.

12 A. We were lined up.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. All our family.

15 Q. Okay. How were you lined up? How did you come to be lined up?

16 A. We were lined up. We were on the point of leaving, and then they

17 did what they did. They prevented us from leaving, wanted to fire at us.

18 This person did not let them fire at us, and they stopped from firing.

19 That's it.

20 Q. Did they line you up?

21 A. Yes, yes, they did. They told us, We want to kill you, all of

22 you.

23 Q. What did --

24 A. Because this is the family of -- they mentioned the name of my

25 elder sister-in-law. We want to kill all of you because she worked with

Page 922

1 the Serbs. And then this man from Istog came in and ...

2 Q. Just talk about the lining up. What did they do so that you got

3 lined up?

4 A. He wanted to fire at us. I explained to you for the umpteenth

5 time: That person did not allow them to shoot and then they let us go

6 through the mountains, in the direction of Batush.

7 Q. All right. Stop.

8 A. We stumbled and we walked.

9 Q. Stop. Just the line-up. Did they tell you to stand in line?

10 A. Yes. They said, You should line up, all you members of the family

11 of my elder sister-in-law, because we want to kill you. And that man from

12 Istog did not let them.

13 Q. How did you feel when they lined you up and held their guns at

14 you, wanting to shoot you?

15 A. I heard them saying, We must kill the entire family. There were

16 many of them, but this man did not allow them.

17 Q. All right. That's not what I'm asking you, though. I'm asking

18 you how you felt.

19 A. Me? How did I feel?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. After that, nothing happened to us.

22 Q. What were your feelings at the time? Good, bad, something in

23 between?

24 A. What can I say? I wasn't feeling well. I was sick. I was

25 crying. I was worried over my young children.

Page 923

1 Q. Were your children with you?

2 A. Yes, they were with me. Yes, we were all together, the entire

3 family.

4 Q. Were they in the line of people the KLA wanted to shoot?

5 A. Yes, all of us. I held them by the hands and held them close to

6 myself, and they were crying, they were scared.

7 Q. Okay. Let's do this very quickly. Where did you go to after

8 this, after the man from Istog intervened? Where did you go? Just tell

9 us quickly where you went.

10 A. We went through mountains, to Batush, to the Batusha mountain.

11 Q. Did you run into the Serbian -- did you find the Serbian army

12 there and did they look after you?

13 A. Yes. You mean the KLA? No. We walked through the mountains. It

14 was a hard walk. We heard fired shots but we kept walking and went to

15 Batush.

16 Q. Okay. Now, finally, I want to ask you about your house in

17 Ponosevac and your sister-in-law's, that's 38's place, in Junik. Have you

18 been back to Ponosevac or Junik since that day?

19 A. I didn't go back, neither to Ponoshevc or Junik. Never went back.

20 Q. Why not?

21 A. Because I was scared. Because she worked, as I said, with the

22 Serbs and I didn't go back. And I don't know whether the houses have been

23 burned or not. I know nothing.

24 Q. Why were you scared to go back? What did you fear would happen if

25 you went back?

Page 924

1 A. I was scared where to go. They didn't let you go back. Maybe

2 they were burned. I don't know. I was simply scared and refused to go

3 back.

4 Q. Have any members of your family gone back to Ponosevac, to your

5 houses there?

6 A. No, they didn't. No one went back. I stayed in Gjakov. We

7 didn't go back there anymore.

8 Q. Did you leave Kosovo? Sorry, when did you leave Kosovo?

9 A. Over five years, five years and five months.

10 Q. Are you now living in Switzerland?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Are you seeking asylum or refugeeship there?

13 A. Yes, asylum.

14 Q. When you say you were scared and refused to go back, what are you

15 scared -- what were you scared of? Why were you scared to go back to

16 Ponosevac? What was causing you the concern about going back?

17 A. Where should I go? Where could I go back? All my family was with

18 me, so why should I go back? Where could I go back to? We couldn't live

19 there anymore.

20 Q. Why couldn't you live there anymore?

21 A. I don't have any business going there. Nobody from my family

22 lives there. Why should I go? I have no business to go there.

23 Q. Why are you seeking asylum in Switzerland? What's the reason for

24 that?

25 A. I am with my family. I have no place to go now that the houses

Page 925

1 are burned. I'm not with my husband, with my children. Where can I go?

2 Where do you think I can go? There is no return for me there. There is

3 no place for me there.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Re.

5 Witness 58, it's time for a break. After the break, you'll be

6 cross-examined by counsel for the Defence.

7 We'll resume at ten minutes past 4.00.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will give, first of all, a decision in

12 relation to Witness 58. This is a decision on protective measures for

13 Witness 58.

14 On the 9th of March of this year, the Prosecution and the Defence

15 collectively requested protective measures for a witness who had appeared

16 to testify without any pre-arranged protective measures. On the same day,

17 the Chamber orally granted a pseudonym for the witness, this being number

18 58, as well as face distortion. The Chamber hereby gives its reasoning

19 for this decision.

20 The party seeking protective measures for a witness must

21 demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare of the

22 witness or the witness's family, should it become known that the witness

23 has given evidence before the Tribunal. In the present case, it has come

24 to the attention of the Chamber that clear and direct threats have been

25 made towards family members of the witness. The Trial Chamber accepts

Page 926

1 that there is a risk that if the identity of the witness were to be made

2 public, physical harm might result to the witness's family.

3 The Trial Chamber therefore granted the requested pseudonym and

4 face distortion.

5 This concludes this decision.

6 The other decision is an oral decision on the Prosecution's motion

7 of the 7th of March, 2007. It is the Prosecution's motion for protective

8 measures for Witnesses 4 and 19, filed on the 7th of March. In its

9 motion, the Prosecution requests the retention of the assigned pseudonyms

10 and the assignment of face and voice distortion.

11 The Chamber has been informed by the three Defence counsel that

12 they do not oppose the application.

13 In its motion, the Prosecution argues that the witnesses' family

14 still lives in the territory and that they face a serious risk of harm if

15 the witnesses' identity would be made public. The Chamber is satisfied

16 that should the witnesses' identity be made public, physical harm might

17 result to the witnesses' family.

18 The Trial Chamber therefore grants the Prosecution's request for

19 the retention of the assigned pseudonyms and the assignment of face and

20 voice distortion.

21 This concludes the Trial Chamber's decision on protective measures

22 for Witnesses 4 and 19.

23 Before asking Madam Usher to escort the witness into the

24 courtroom, as guidance for the Defence in relation to Witness 58, the

25 Chamber informs the Defence that the Chamber will consider her testimony

Page 927

1 in relation to other evidence presented in relation to the counts 1 and 2.

2 And the Defence is invited to keep in mind and to be aware that the

3 Chamber, perhaps unlike a jury, is capable to distinguish between fake and

4 precise evidence, is capable of making a distinction between signs of

5 consistency and inconsistency, or whatever is important to consider when

6 considering evidence, even if the attention of the Chamber would not be

7 specifically drawn to every single aspect of this kind. This is just for

8 guidance of the Defence.

9 Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the

10 courtroom.

11 [The witness takes the stand]

12 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/58 [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreters]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, you'll first be examined by Mr. Emmerson,

15 who is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.

16 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

18 Q. Witness 58, I'm asking you questions from this side of the

19 courtroom.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, that's Mr. Emmerson, who is going to ask

21 questions to you. He's standing now. Could you please look at him so

22 that there's --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know him. No, I don't know

24 him.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to know him. But if you look at

Page 928

1 Mr. Emmerson, then you know at least who is putting questions to you.

2 Mr. Emmerson is standing over there; yes? So if you look at him when he

3 puts questions to you, then you have at least some --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I don't know him.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.

6 Mr. Emmerson.


8 Q. Witness 58, I have just got one or two questions for you, and I

9 shouldn't be very long in asking you questions. Can I just emphasise at

10 the outset, you have said on a number of occasions that you are telling us

11 what you personally saw, and I'm not going to ask you about things that

12 you --

13 A. No, I don't know him. No, no, I don't know him.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, let me explain to you what happens in

15 this courtroom.

16 You earlier have met with the counsel for the Prosecution. You

17 have been interviewed by them. We are the Judges, so we'll hear your

18 evidence because we finally will have to decide this case. Now, just as

19 the Prosecution puts questions to you, counsel for the Defence, even if

20 you don't know them, are entitled to put questions to you as well. The

21 Prosecution may have asked questions which --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they can ask questions, but I

23 can only speak of things I know.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, that goes without saying, and they

25 will ask you about things you know. And perhaps if you slightly turn to

Page 929

1 Mr. Emmerson, then it's -- then we all know that you understand that

2 Mr. Emmerson is questioning you and that you are giving responses to his

3 questions.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


6 Q. And, Witness 58, can I make it clear, I am not going to ask you

7 any questions about things you did not see. I'm not going to ask you any

8 questions about things that other people in your family may have said to

9 you. I just want to ask you questions about what you personally saw; all

10 right?

11 A. I never seen him. I don't remember seeing him.

12 Q. That's fine.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Just put your questions, Mr. Emmerson. That might be

14 the best way to proceed.


16 Q. Can I ask you this, first of all: When you went to the mill with

17 your family, did anybody force you --

18 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, do we have a translation for that?

19 JUDGE ORIE: I did not receive a translation. I don't know

20 whether the translators --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You just said something. Could you please repeat it,

23 because the interpreters could not hear you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember him. I don't know

25 him. Maybe he was there, but I didn't see him. I don't know him. I

Page 930

1 haven't seen him. Maybe he was there, but I didn't see him.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, I don't know who you're talking about.

3 It might be that you are talking about Mr. Haradinaj and that you have not

4 seen him there, I do not know. But carefully -- carefully --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see him and I don't

6 know him.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you first would be so kind to listen to the

8 questions put to you by Mr. Emmerson, and I don't think at the moment that

9 he's asking the question you gave a response to already. I think that ...

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may speak but I don't know him. I

11 have never seen him.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, if you first listen to the question that

13 Mr. Emmerson will put to you, then tell me whether you understand that

14 question; if you understand it, then you can respond to that question. It

15 might be something totally different from what you think he might ask you.

16 Mr. Emmerson, could you please ask your first question?


18 Q. Witness 58, the question I was asking you was, when you went with

19 your family to the mill, did anybody force you to go there, or did you and

20 your family choose to go there for your own safety?

21 A. We were told to leave the house, and we left and went to the mill.

22 I don't know him. I've never seen this person. Maybe he was there, but I

23 haven't seen him.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's stop there. Let's stop there for a moment,

25 Witness 58. You said: "We were told to leave the house, and we left and

Page 931

1 went to the mill." We're not talking about a specific person at this

2 moment at all. Did you choose, yourself, because you felt unsafe, to go

3 to the mill, or were you told by whomever that that's where you had to go?

4 Which of the two?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came and they told us that we

6 had to leave and we left. I don't know who they were. I don't remember.

7 There were a lot of them. We left.


9 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


11 Q. And I think it's right, Witness 58, that it was your choice, the

12 family's choice, to go to the mill for safety; is that right?

13 A. No, not ourselves, but they told us that we had to leave and we

14 left. They were shooting, the windows were broken, and we left. They

15 said that all of us had to leave and we left. They forced us to leave. I

16 don't know who they were. I don't remember them. I don't know them.

17 Q. But did anybody specifically tell you that you had to go to the

18 mill rather than somewhere else?

19 A. Yes. This is what I'm saying. They came, the KLA, and they said

20 that we had to leave that place and we left. They said to us, There's no

21 place for you here, you have to leave, and we left.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I again try to focus your attention on the

23 following: Mr. Emmerson was asking you, when they told you that you had

24 to leave, you can then do that in several ways. You can say, You have to

25 leave and you have to go there, for example, to the mill, or to say, You

Page 932

1 have to leave; choose where you want to go. Now, what was it? Did they

2 leave it to you to decide where to go, or did they say you have to leave,

3 and you have to go to the mill?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said, Leave this place, and

5 then we went to the Tofaj place. I think that's what it's called.


7 Q. You've said now on a number of occasions over the last few

8 minutes: "I have never seen this person. Maybe he was there but I

9 didn't --"

10 A. No, no, I don't know him. That's correct, I don't know him, and

11 that's what I said then.

12 Q. Who are you referring to?

13 A. I don't know who these people who came and told us to leave were.

14 Q. I see.

15 A. So we left. They told us to leave, but as I said, I don't know

16 who they were. I don't know them.

17 Q. Thank you. When you were at the mill, did you or any members of

18 your family or your husband's family go inside a building at any time, or

19 were you always outside?

20 A. Outside, outside. We stayed outside. We stayed outside. Tell

21 them we stayed outside.

22 Q. And when you left the mill area, you've told us that you walked up

23 to the Jasiq mountain where you spent the night; is that right?

24 A. That's right. Correct. It was cold; it was raining. That's

25 correct.

Page 933

1 Q. And when you were walking from the mill at Tofaj up to the Jasiq

2 mountain, were both of your sisters-in-law with you at that time, walking

3 up from the mill area to the mountain?

4 A. The children, the sisters-in-law, both of them, the wife of my

5 father-in-law, my father-in-law, and we went on foot to Jasiq mountain.

6 Q. I just want to concentrate on the two sisters-in-law for a moment

7 or two. Both of them were with you on the journey up the mountain; is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes, that's how it was. We were all together.

10 Q. Do you remember how many nights you slept at the same place in the

11 mountain? Was it one night or two nights?

12 A. No, no, it was one night. Not exactly one night. It was 7.00 or

13 8.00, I don't remember exactly. We spent the night there. It was night.

14 Q. And it was the next morning, that is to say, the morning after the

15 first night, that you left and went further up the hill towards Gjocaj; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. And were both of your sisters with you during that night in the

19 Jasiq mountains that you spent in the open air? Were both of your

20 sisters-in-law -- I'm sorry, both of your sisters-in-law with you over

21 that night?

22 A. Yes, we were all together there. We were all together. We stayed

23 there without any food, without any water.

24 Q. Were you all dressed, clothed, over that night?

25 A. Well, what we had to put on, it was cold. We didn't have any

Page 934

1 jackets; we didn't have any food; any water. It was raining. We were

2 shivering from cold.

3 Q. But none of you was, for example, completely naked on the journey

4 up the mountains or overnight, were you, completely naked?

5 A. I encircled my children. We stayed there. There were many

6 people. The mountain was full of people. There were many of them in the

7 mountain. I was only interested in my own children and myself.

8 Q. Neither of your sisters-in-law was naked walking up the mountain

9 or during the night there, were they?

10 A. As I said earlier, I wasn't paying attention. We were all

11 together. I wasn't paying attention. I took my own children by the hand.

12 They were crying. They were asking for food; we didn't have any to give

13 them. We didn't have any water, anything. Whether she had her clothes on

14 or not, that I don't know. I wasn't paying attention. I was feeling

15 lost. I was scared.

16 Q. Were there other people in the place where you spent the night,

17 apart from yourself and your family and your husband's family?

18 A. You mean from the Roma? From the Roma people?

19 Q. Not necessarily. Any other people there?

20 A. There were many. I wasn't looking, I wasn't paying attention, but

21 there were many.

22 Q. And were you and your family and your husband's family all

23 together in a little group there?

24 A. Yes, we stayed together, all of us, in Jasiq. We were shivering

25 from cold. It was horrible. There was no food. We didn't have anything

Page 935

1 to drink. We talked. We were --

2 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could please repeat the last

3 sentence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last thing you said?

5 You said: "We didn't have anything to drink. We talked." And then you

6 said: "We were ..." Could you please repeat that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't have anything to eat,

8 anything to drink. We didn't have any clothes. We were crying. We were

9 scared. I already stated this.


11 Q. I understand what you're saying, but can I just ask you this: You

12 say you talked to one another. Were you close enough to talk to your

13 elder sister-in-law, that is to say, 38?

14 A. Where? Here? Could you please tell me? You mean in the

15 mountain?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes. We were together in the mountain. And as for here, no. We

18 stayed there in the mountain, scared, cold. It was raining. No food,

19 nothing to drink. Together with my father-in-law, with his wife, with the

20 children.

21 Q. I just have one more point to put to you on this part of the

22 evidence, Witness 58. If you were there close enough to talk to your

23 elder sister-in-law, you would have noticed, wouldn't you, if she was

24 completely naked in that field overnight?

25 A. I didn't see whether she had her clothes on. I was looking after

Page 936

1 my own children. We stayed there together. I don't remember, and I

2 apologise, but I was looking after my children. It was night. Things

3 that I know, I can talk about those things, and what I don't know, I

4 cannot say anything about it. This is all I can say. This is what I know

5 and what I saw.

6 Q. The next morning, you and your family and your husband's family

7 left that area, you've told us, and walked up towards Gjocaj; is that

8 right?

9 A. Yes, that's right. Correct. Correct.

10 Q. And you've told us about some things that you say happened up

11 there. I want to ask you about the man that you say intervened to protect

12 you.

13 A. Yes, he protected us. They wanted to shoot, but he didn't let

14 them shoot. He protected us. That's a fact.

15 Q. And this man was from Istog, you said?

16 A. Yes, yes, he is from Istog, that's correct. That's a fact.

17 Q. Do you know his name?

18 A. His name is Gani. He's from Istog.

19 Q. Does the name Gani Nimonaj mean anything to you? Is that his

20 name?

21 A. Yes, yes. That one I know very well. He is Gani Nimonaj, and I

22 know him. That's a fact, that I know him. He rescued us.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 937

1 (redacted)

2 Q. Now, you've told us that you were at one point standing in a line,

3 getting ready initially to leave the area; is that right?

4 A. That's right. And we went to Batusha mountains. That's a fact.

5 Q. Can you remember whether Gani Nimonaj was wearing a uniform or

6 not?

7 A. No, no, he wasn't. He was wearing civilian clothes. He wasn't

8 clothed in uniform.

9 Q. Do you remember if he had a gun or not?

10 A. No, no, no. No, he didn't have anything. He was in civilian

11 clothes; he wasn't wearing uniform. And I cannot tell you something that

12 wasn't. He wasn't wearing uniform.

13 Q. Thank you. And when you heard him talking to the men who had

14 guns, were you facing those men or did you have your backs to them, your

15 back, you yourself?

16 A. Facing them. I lowered my head down. I held my children close to

17 me. They were crying; I was crying. We were all scared. They wanted to

18 shoot, and he didn't let them shoot. They said to him, This is their

19 family and we will kill them, but he didn't let them do that.

20 Q. And this was by an unarmed civilian, simply saying to them that

21 they should not do it?

22 A. Yes. He didn't let them fire at us, and he was dressed in

23 civilian clothes.

24 Q. And then you and your family and your husband's family were

25 allowed to leave, and no one tried to shoot you or shoot after you?

Page 938

1 A. Yes. They fired but we tried to escape, and we went to Batush.

2 Q. Can I just clarify that last answer. Nobody shot at you, did

3 they?

4 A. They didn't fire at us, but they shot I don't know where. We just

5 left the place and went to Batush.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Can we go into closed session for just one moment,

7 please, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 939

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


13 Q. Finally, Witness 58, I just wanted to go back to the very

14 beginning of your evidence and to what you told us about the Serbs

15 arriving in Ponosevac. Can I ask you this --

16 A. You can ask me. They told us to leave.

17 Q. -- were all the villagers from Ponosevac and the surrounding

18 villages all forced, during those few days, to leave that area and seek

19 refuge in Junik from the Serb forces?

20 A. First, there were the Serbs. We didn't leave first. And then the

21 KLA came and they told us to leave, because you are with the Serbs, and

22 then it was then that we left. Then they came after the Serbs.

23 Q. I'm not just asking about your own family; I'm asking about all of

24 the people in Ponosevac and in the villages around.

25 A. It was only us there, I with my husband's family. No one else.

Page 940

1 The other houses were empty. Only us were -- there were others, but they

2 were further away, maybe 20 or 30 minutes away from us. How can I tell

3 you? (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. And when you got to Junik, you went there because you thought

6 you'd be safe in Junik, didn't you?

7 A. We didn't have problems. First, we didn't have problems. Then we

8 heard shots. They came and they told you what I knew -- what I know.

9 Q. I just want to suggest to you, Witness 58, that thousands, roughly

10 3.000 people, from Ponosevac and the surrounding villages all ran from the

11 Serb forces during the weeks between the 5th and the 28th of May, and that

12 by the time the war broke out in Junik, there were 3.000 refugees seeking

13 refuge from Serbian forces in the Albanian village of Junik, of whom your

14 family was one.

15 A. Whose family? Can you explain? We were only us, our family, my

16 husband's family. We were in Ponoshevc. There were others, but they were

17 down below. We were, what to say, rather isolated, our house.

18 Q. I'm simply suggesting to you that you were not the only family to

19 run from your homes, to seek refuge in Junik, and that there were

20 thousands of others from Ponosevac and the surrounding villages who were

21 fleeing from the Serb forces to take refuge in Junik.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions, Your Honour.

Page 941

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

2 One second, please.

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. For this witness, I have

6 no questions.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

8 MR. HARVEY: I have no questions for this witness, Your Honour.

9 Thank you.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has one or more questions for you,

12 Witness 58. Listen carefully to him.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I wanted to ask you how many children you have?

15 A. Two girls.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And how old are they by now?

17 A. The elder one will turn 21 in August; the other one, 15.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I have -- I have no questions for you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there any need to re-examine the witness?

22 MR. RE: I have no questions in re-examination.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You have no questions.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I want to tell you

25 something.

Page 942

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Tell us whatever you would like to tell us at

2 this moment, if it is something you've seen, if it's something you know

3 from your experience.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was going to say something

5 about my children.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please tell us about your children.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What can I tell you? Because of

8 them, I stayed with the children, even though my husband remarried. I

9 endured a lot of sufferings for them, and this is why I feel so bad,

10 because of them. I would kindly ask you to do something about my younger

11 daughter, if you can.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, I do understand that this is a request

13 which comes from the heart of a mother. At the same time, I have to tell

14 you that this Tribunal is here to try cases which have been brought to

15 this Chamber by the Prosecution, and we --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- don't have the competence to do anything

18 specifically for your children.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to you for this request.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I can understand that a mother tries to use every

21 opportunity to achieve the best for her children.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So that's understood.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: This, Witness 58, this concludes your evidence before

Page 943

1 this Court.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to thank you very much for having answered

4 all the questions put to you by the Prosecution, by the Defence, by the

5 Bench.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you very much. That's it.

7 Thank you all.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You're excused. Would you please follow Madam Usher,

9 who will escort you out of the courtroom.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think this would be a suitable moment to hear from the

12 Defence on the protective measures sought, and therefore we should go into

13 private session, Madam Registrar.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 944











11 Pages 944-949 redacted. Private session.















Page 950

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Closed session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 951











11 Pages 951-953 redacted. Closed session.















Page 954

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I was informed that you'd like to raise

22 something.

23 MR. RE: Yes, very briefly, thank you, Your Honour.

24 The witness tomorrow, Witness 19, in relation to disclosure -- not

25 disclosure, but providing the Trial Chamber with a copy of the statement

Page 955

1 and the proofing notes, we provided it to -- the proofing notes to the

2 Defence, I think, at 2.00 on Friday. We're still awaiting their okay to

3 provide it to the Trial Chamber. And the -- we understand we're sitting

4 tomorrow at 9.00 a.m. So perhaps the Trial Chamber could gently ask the

5 Defence to respond.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. The response will be to Mr. Re, within the

8 half hour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would it be a release or would it be the

10 suggestion not to release it to the Chamber?

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Chances are pretty good it will be a release, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's great. And we know what homework there

14 is to be done.

15 Then having dealt with this, Mr. Re, is the Prosecution ready to

16 call its next witness, the next witness - let me just have a look - being

17 Mr. Stanisa Radosevic; is that right?

18 MR. RE: The Prosecution is ready to proceed. The witness is

19 outside, and Mr. Dutertre will take that witness in chief.


21 Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the

22 courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. -- I take it,

25 Mr. Stanisa Radosevic. Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules

Page 956

1 of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

2 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 Madam Registrar will now hand over to you the text of the solemn

4 declaration. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter].

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Radosevic. You'll

10 first be examined by Mr. Dutertre, who is counsel for the Prosecution.

11 Mr. Dutertre, please proceed.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radosevic, good day. Your name is Stanisa

15 Radosevic. You were born 21 November 1974 in Decan; is this true?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 Q. What is your profession today, Mr. Radosevic?

18 A. Since the year 2000, I've been a police officer. Otherwise, I'm

19 an expert in communication.

20 Q. Mr. Radosevic, where was your family house in 1998?

21 A. It's situated in the village of Lasinac [as interpreted], Decani

22 municipality.

23 Q. Would you please repeat what you've just said. The village of

24 Lasinac?

25 A. The village of Dasinovac, Decani municipality.

Page 957

1 Q. Yes, very well. What sort of city is it? Is it a village, a

2 city, a suburb?

3 A. It's a village.

4 Q. Thank you. Who was living in your family house at that time with

5 you?

6 A. My father, my mother, my brother and his wife lived with me.

7 Q. Could you give us the name of your father?

8 A. My father's name was Slobodan Radosevic.

9 Q. At that time, were you a member of any armed organisation?

10 A. No, I wasn't.

11 Q. What was your professional occupation then, in those days?

12 A. I was a security officer for a company in Decani. The same of the

13 company is Decanski Borovi.

14 Q. What company was it?

15 A. No. I didn't receive a translation.

16 Q. I will repeat the question. What company was it? You said you

17 were working for a company in Decani. What company was it?

18 A. The name was Decanski Borovi company. It was a holiday resort

19 where -- where displaced persons from Albanian were housed.

20 Q. What was the ethnic origin of these people?

21 A. Do you mean who these displaced persons from Albania were or who I

22 was working with?

23 Q. I wish to know the ethnic origin of these displaced people from

24 Albania. Yes?

25 A. Those were Serbs from Albania. They were displaced during the

Page 958

1 19th, first to Podgorica, and then they were relocated to Decani.

2 Q. Very well. What was the composition of the population in your

3 village of Dasinovac, where your family was, of Dasinovac? What was the

4 composition of Serbs, Montenegrins, and other people of other

5 nationalities?

6 A. Serbs, Montenegrins, and Albanians were living there as

7 neighbours.

8 Q. How many Serb inhabitants in this village, in this village of

9 Dasinovac, how many inhabitants were of Serb ethnicity?

10 A. There were about 20 households, so that would make a total of 60

11 residents.

12 Q. When did you, for the first time, hear about the Liberation Army

13 of Kosovo?

14 A. In 1998 is when I heard about it. I heard it in the media, on TV.

15 That was approximately the beginning of March 1998.

16 Q. And what did you hear about the KLA in the media?

17 A. Well, we heard that they were moving solely during night-time;

18 that they were setting ambushes; that they were patrolling the area and

19 attacking Serbian houses.

20 Q. Do you know about any specific incident among people you knew

21 which would have had the KLA which would have had a role in this, part in

22 this?

23 A. We had a friend, Culafic, from the neighbouring village of Ratis

24 and his house had been shelled by the KLA.

25 Q. How did you hear about this?

Page 959

1 A. We heard on TV that his house had been shelled by the KLA. He was

2 a family friend, and we went over there to see what had happened. If they

3 needed any help, if their house was so damaged or destroyed, we wanted to

4 offer them to move with us. That is why we went there.

5 Q. And what did you see when you arrived on the site, and what did

6 they tell you?

7 A. They were afraid. They told us that they had been shelled during

8 the night, around 2.00 or 3.00 a.m., that their house was shelled.

9 Q. What did you notice yourself about this house?

10 A. I noticed that part of the house was destroyed. Where a window to

11 the hallway was, the window was destroyed and one part of the house was

12 destroyed, in fact, where it was hit by a shell.

13 Q. You said that there had been an attack around 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.,

14 in the middle of the night. Could you approximately tell us, what was the

15 date when this attack took place?

16 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was definitely in April 1998.

17 Q. The ethnicity of this family, what was it?

18 A. Serbian.

19 Q. Do you know of other events in which -- other incidents in which

20 the KLA -- some people you knew could have been victims or had problems?

21 A. Yes. I had friends who were taken prisoner in the village of

22 Glodjane Dubrava --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name of the

24 captured person?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name of the captured

Page 960

1 persons?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragoslav Stojanovic, Mijat

3 Stojanovic a.k.a. Giqa, and Veselin Stijovic.

4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Who told you about this event?

6 A. Nobody told me about it. I went to see Vesko Stijovic and

7 Dragoslav in hospital, and I saw with my own eyes they had been captured.

8 Q. And what did he precisely tell you?

9 A. They told me that they had been captured by the KLA in their

10 house; that they had been fired upon and shelled; that after the capture

11 they were maltreated and beaten; and that they had released them after a

12 certain period of time. Their house was in Dubrava, but they were

13 released and told to go to Decani.

14 Q. And when did this take place, approximately? Can you give us an

15 idea when?

16 A. I think it was sometime around the 15th of April until the 18th.

17 Around that time. I'm not sure of the exact date.

18 Q. These persons were of Serbian nationality or ethnicity, weren't

19 they?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On the 22nd of April, 1998, what did you do, Mr. Radosevic?

22 A. Well, I am not sure about the date. On the 20th or 21st of April,

23 I went -- came to the village to visit my parents, and I took my mother to

24 see a doctor in Decani, and on that day I slept at my uncle's house in

25 Decani.

Page 961

1 Q. Where was your mother at that time?

2 A. Well, she was at home. And on that day I went there, since she

3 was quite ill, I took her to see a doctor in Decani, to the health centre

4 in Decani.

5 Q. Yes, in Decani. Understood. And the next day, what did you do?

6 A. On the next day, in the morning, at around 9.00 or 9.30, I set out

7 with my mother to go to the village of Dasinovac, to my house. I went

8 there with my friend Novak Stijovic. We set out with two cars. When we

9 reached the village of Pozare, we were stopped by the terrorists.

10 Q. You just said that you were intercepted by terrorists. Could you

11 indicate for us how they stopped you?

12 A. They stopped me. I was the first one in my car, Lada. Novak was

13 behind in his Yugo. And then near the village of Pozare, at the

14 intersection for Donja Juka and Rznic, there were four or five of them in

15 civilian clothes who came out on the road and pointed automatic rifles at

16 me. One of them waved his arm at me to stop.

17 Q. You said they came out. Where did they come out from?

18 A. They came out from some kind of a shelter. There was a small

19 concrete trench there, kind of a shelter, and we couldn't see at the

20 distance of 300 to 400 metres that there was something there. So we came

21 out of this trench or a ditch.

22 Q. Would you please describe in more detail how were they -- they

23 were dressed and whether you saw any uniforms?

24 A. Three of them wore civilian clothes and two of them wore uniforms.

25 One uniform was a NATO-type uniform, and the other one was a black and

Page 962

1 red uniform with dots and stripes, thin stripes. And on their sleeves,

2 they had emblems of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

3 Q. Would you please describe what they had on their sleeves, this

4 emblem?

5 A. What do you want me to describe, the colour or what, or the

6 appearance of it?

7 Q. Tell me what was written on this emblem and what you could see on

8 that badge, exactly, precisely?

9 A. Well, there was a double-headed black eagle on the emblem, and

10 above its head there were three capital letters, UCK, meaning KLA, and at

11 the bottom of the emblem there was an inscription, "Kosovo Liberation

12 Army", in Albanian.

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to display Exhibit 9 on

14 the screen.

15 Q. Mr. Radosevic, can you see that document on your screen, on the

16 screen in front of you?

17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you'd like to have Exhibit P9 on the

18 screen.

19 MR. DUTERTRE: Yes, P9.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the emblem.

21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. You stated that these men carried weapons. Could you please

23 describe these weapons for us?

24 A. These were semi-automatic and automatic rifles.

25 Q. These individuals were members of the KLA. What did they do when

Page 963

1 you stopped your car and when your brother stopped his car -- or rather,

2 you and Novak Stijovic, when you stopped your cars? What did they do?

3 A. Well, they stopped us. The five of them approached us. One of

4 them asked me, Where are you going, and I told him I was on my way home.

5 And he said, Can't you see that you can't go there, and I said, Well, I

6 didn't know that. Then he said to me to get out of the car. He asked

7 whether I had any weapons; I told him I didn't. And then he said, Should

8 I find any weapons, I'm going to kill you, and he said -- and I said, Go

9 ahead, kill me.

10 And then this man searched the car. He took a knife and cut the

11 upholstery on the seats, looking for weapons.

12 Q. Could you describe that man for us?

13 A. Well, I don't know his name. I know him by sight. I know that he

14 was a former policeman in Prizren. About 180 centimetres tall, of large

15 build, blonde. He had a red vest on him and wore civilian clothes.

16 Q. In what language did he speak when he talked to you?

17 A. Right there, while he addressed me, while he was alone near my

18 car, he spoke half in Albanian and half in Serbian.

19 Q. What reason did he give you when he said that you could not go

20 back to your village of Dasinovac?

21 A. The reason he gave us is that this was no longer ours. We had

22 nothing to look for there, that it was theirs now. They had established a

23 checkpoint there and that Serbs could no longer live there, could no

24 longer have a peaceful life there.

25 Q. Whilst you were talking with this soldier, what happened to

Page 964

1 Novak Stijovic?

2 A. They also approached him, one of them in uniform, the other one in

3 civilian clothes. What they told him, I really couldn't say anything

4 about because they were some 3 metres away from me, and I don't know what

5 they talked about.

6 Q. After this search he conducted in your vehicle, and since you were

7 not allowed to go on towards Dasinovac, what did these individuals say

8 that you had to do? What did they tell you to do?

9 A. They told us to park the car and to turn towards Rznic in our car

10 and to halt there, and that they would take us perhaps to the headquarters

11 in Glodjane.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have displayed on

13 screen Exhibit 1007, that's the 65 ter number of that exhibit, 1007.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P10,

16 marked for identification.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It's a map and it takes quite some

19 time for it to be uploaded.

20 Q. Witness, can you see the map now on your screen?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Radosevic, you have a tactile screen in front of you, and I'd

23 like you to show us and to mark where the Decani city is to be found, your

24 own village of Dasinovac, and then I'd like you to trace the route you

25 took from Decani to the point where you were stopped by these men.

Page 965

1 A. This is Decani here. So we were captured here at the intersection

2 of the roads leading to Donja Luka and Pozare.

3 Q. Could you please trace a circle around your village, the village

4 of Dasinovac, where your family house is to be found?

5 A. [Marks].

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have this map saved

8 and I'd like to tender it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the -- do we need separate numbers

10 for the map without any annotations and then now the annotated map, the

11 marked map?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P11,

13 marked for identification.

14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radosevic. What was the distance between

16 the place where they stopped you on the road to Decani and the place where

17 they told you to park your car on the road towards Rznic?

18 A. Four to 5 kilometres. Four to 5 kilometres is the distance

19 between Decani and village of Pozare.

20 Q. No. I'll repeat my question. What was the distance between the

21 place where you were stopped by the soldiers, next to Pozare, and the

22 place where they told you to park your car later on?

23 A. I misunderstood your question. I'd say up to some 3 metres. I

24 turned off the main road, and there was a turn to the village of Rznic.

25 Q. And that's the place where you parked your car?

Page 966

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long did you stay on that particular spot?

3 A. In that place, we spent half an hour. They got out of the

4 shelter, and there were about 40 of them, all armed, and they started

5 debating who was going to go with us to Glodjane, to escort us there. So

6 we spent some half an hour there.

7 Q. Could you please describe the clothes these men were wearing,

8 these 40 individuals who arrived on the scene at that time?

9 A. Well, a lot of them were in civilian clothes with KLA insignia

10 either on the sleeves or on their caps, and then some of them wore

11 uniforms, as I've told you.

12 Q. Did you know where these people were from, what village, what

13 region they were from?

14 A. Most of them were from Donja Luka, Pozare, Lubarda, and another

15 village. Most of them were from there; 70 per cent of them were from

16 those villages.

17 Q. How did you know that these people were from these villages?

18 A. You mean whether I knew?

19 Q. How did you know?

20 A. I knew because I had lived there for 23 years. I went to school

21 there, to work. I would drive them; they would drive me to work. We knew

22 each other by sight. We knew each other.

23 Q. Could you please describe the type of weapons these soldiers were

24 carrying? You were talking about these 40 soldiers who suddenly

25 appeared. Can you please describe their weapons for us?

Page 967

1 A. They were semi-automatic and automatic weapons.

2 Q. Did you notice any type of communication equipment they had?

3 A. I didn't observe that they used any communication devices.

4 Q. After half an hour had elapsed and once they had discussed on how

5 to take you to Glodjane, what happened, exactly, then, and what did they

6 finally decide to do?

7 A. The one who arrested me - and I don't know his name - he took

8 Novak's car, and he got in front of my car. My mother was told to sit in

9 front, Novak was told to sit in the back, and then there was a guy with an

10 automatic rifle behind me, and I was told to follow the Yugo. And then we

11 went to the village of Rznic.

12 Q. What road did you take?

13 A. We took the road from Pozare to Rznic and then on to Glodjane.

14 Q. Very well.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we see that also on the map?

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I will show that very soon.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Why not now?

18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you for anticipating what I

19 was about to do.

20 Q. What were your chances of escaping at that time? How would you

21 assess them?

22 A. Well, there was no way we could have escaped. From Pozare, all

23 along the road, every 100 metres there were armed persons. At the main

24 intersections, they had dug out trenches, made fortifications, erected

25 bunkers, so there was no way for us to escape. I didn't want to risk my

Page 968

1 life and my mother's life and that of Novak.

2 Q. How many trenches did you see overall?

3 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly how many trenches, but at the

4 intersection of the road leading to Decani, there were definitely trenches

5 and fortifications there. I'm not exactly sure how many, but I know that

6 this is where the road -- there was a turn to Decani, and there were

7 bunkers and fortifications there.

8 Q. And how many soldiers did you see along the road?

9 A. How should I describe it? At that moment, I didn't really count

10 them. I didn't have occasion to count them, but there were a lot of them.

11 Well, let me give you -- rather, I was just afraid for my life and that of

12 my family.

13 Q. But would you say there were 50 of them, a hundred?

14 A. Definitely a hundred of them.

15 Q. And how would you describe their behaviour, as far as you could

16 see, of course, their morale?

17 A. Well, they acted happy. Whoever saw that we were arrested would

18 cheer. They would raise their fists in a celebratory way, and they sang

19 songs and they chanted, "KLA."

20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have displayed on the

21 screen, once again, Exhibit P10, please.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think for practical purposes, I suggest that we

23 decide on the admission of it, of the map and the marked map. I don't

24 think that there's any objection. So that they are now exhibits, which

25 makes it easier. So that's now Exhibit P10. You'd like to ...

Page 969

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Now, could we enlarge that, to have it like -- at

2 the left-hand Decani and towards the right, Dasinovac, and then down to

3 the lake at the right bottom? Can you do that?

4 JUDGE ORIE: To the extent it would still be unclear for the

5 registrar, P10 and P11, are therefore now exhibit -- admitted.

6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. On this map, Witness, still using the pen that's on the right of

8 your screen, could you please indicate the route you followed between the

9 place where you were stopped by the soldiers and the village of Glodjane

10 where you were escorted by them.

11 A. Yes, I can.

12 Q. Thank you. Wait for a second. Maybe we'll have some more

13 markings to put on this map. What did you see when you first arrived in

14 Glodjane?

15 A. The place where I marked is where I noticed, going from Rznic to

16 Glodjane, on the right-hand side, a fortification with some large-calibre

17 weapons and two soldiers in black uniforms.

18 Q. Could you please describe those large-calibre weapons.

19 A. I don't know how to describe it. It was just a large-calibre

20 weapon. It wasn't a small-calibre weapon but a large-calibre weapon.

21 Q. Very well.

22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we save this map, please.

23 I'd like to tender this map into evidence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could we perhaps first try to have

25 one matter clarified. The witness said: "The place where I marked is

Page 970

1 where I noticed, going from Rznic to Glodjane, on the right-hand side, a

2 fortification ..."

3 Now, I saw the witness marking a route rather than a place, so

4 it's not perfectly clear whether he meant the place, the last point of

5 this line, in Glodjane or --

6 Could you tell us exactly, and perhaps mark that with a small

7 cross, where you saw this fortification.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we reached this point,

9 and maybe after some 5 metres, the car broke down and everything that

10 happened there was about 10 metres from this fortification place.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Was that upon arrival in Glodjane or was it ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, at the very entry point to

13 Glodjane , perhaps 200 or 300 metres from the entrance to Glodjane.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it's clear to me.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You did not make a cross.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you make a cross there where ...

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I put it a little bit further down,

18 but it's on the very edge here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That will do. It's at least clear that that's

20 at the end of the line.

21 That, Madam Registrar, would then be P12, I take it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P12.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I'd suggest that we immediately decide on admission,

24 unless there's any objection. There's not. So that will be Exhibit P12.

25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this very

Page 971

1 useful clarification, Your Honour.

2 Q. How many times did you go to Glodjane in your life, Witness?

3 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I went many times to my friend

4 Stojanovic.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last

6 sentence.

7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

8 Q. You told us that the car had broken down. Whose car was it? Was

9 it your car? Was it your friend's car?

10 A. It was the car of my friend Novak Stijovic.

11 Q. And then what happened?

12 A. After the car had broken down, the men who brought us there told

13 us to get out. At that moment a Niva car and a Mercedes arrived, followed

14 by some individuals with a tractor. After they had alighted, they started

15 beating us, particularly Novak. They started hitting him. He fell down

16 onto the asphalt and they started kicking him. I couldn't watch that any

17 longer, so I set off.

18 Q. You said that they were hitting him. How many of them were

19 hitting your friend Stijovic?

20 A. Initially, for as long as I was composed, there were between three

21 and five of them taking turns.

22 Q. And what part of his body were they targeting in particular?

23 A. They beat him indiscriminately on the head, on the chest, to his

24 ribs. After he fell down, they also kicked him indiscriminately without

25 any concern of possibly causing any injury. They were totally reckless.

Page 972

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry, I'm lost a little bit. Can you help me?

2 Who is "they"? Witness, please explain to us a little more. You told us

3 about the Niva car and a Mercedes having arrived, followed by some

4 individuals with a tractor, and I would like to know who arrived. It's

5 not the cars, I guess it's people who arrived in their cars. And then:

6 "After they had alighted, they started beating us."

7 Could you explain a little, who came from which car and who was

8 then involved in that beating. Do you understand? It's just a little too

9 vague, the description.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A lad, some 35 years old, came out

11 of Niva. He had a sniper rifle and an automatic rifle. They were all in

12 uniforms. There were perhaps two or three of them in civilian clothes,

13 but all the rest of them were dressed in uniforms and they were all

14 members of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, you are taking over again, okay. Please,

16 monsieur, be a little more precise, if possible.

17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You said that they hit Novak Stijovic. Were they using any

19 weapons or objects, or were they just beating him using their hands and

20 feet?

21 A. Initially they punched him and kicked him until I protected him

22 with my own back. Because I couldn't stand watching him being beaten any

23 longer, I turned my back to them in order to lift him and that is when

24 they started hitting me on the head, and I suffered a blow to the head

25 with a fist. Then they started kicking me, and for a moment I lost

Page 973

1 consciousness. After that, when I came around, I was on the ground but I

2 saw that Novak had got up. They lifted me --

3 Q. Let's move gradually. Could you please give us a description of

4 the wounds suffered by your friend Novak, and could you tell us about his

5 general condition.

6 A. He was in a very difficult condition. He received numerous blows.

7 After he had fallen down onto the ground, he was kicked many times in his

8 abdomen.

9 Q. Moving to the blows you received yourself, you told us that you

10 tried to protect Novak by turning and putting yourself in between them and

11 him. Going back to the blows you received yourself, who was hitting you?

12 The same soldiers that had beaten Novak Stijovic?

13 A. Yes, yes. I stood between Novak and these soldiers with -- in

14 order to diverge their attention and so that they would start beating me,

15 instead of Novak, and to prevent them from hurting him any longer. He was

16 already badly hurt in the back and in the spine.

17 Q. What were these men saying while they were beating you, if they

18 said anything at all?

19 A. Well, they did. They cursed our Serbian mothers, asking us, What

20 do you want? Do you know who we are? They told all sorts of things. But

21 most of all, they used abusive language with respect to our Serbian

22 mothers, claiming that this was their land, What are you doing here, et

23 cetera.

24 Q. You stated that you yourself had received a few blows, so let me

25 repeat the question I asked about Novak: How did they beat you? Did they

Page 974

1 punch you with their hands or did they use any particular object?

2 A. When I tried to protect Novak, he hit me with their fists until I

3 fell down, then they kicked me while I was down. When I came around, they

4 threw us onto the car, and they continued kicking us and also using rifle

5 butts to hit us. I also received a blow with a pistol butt on the head

6 and my hand was bleeding. At that moment, they took away my address book,

7 and for each number or name in my book, whether that was a Serb, a Gypsy,

8 or whoever, I was beaten. They wanted to know everything about these

9 people.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, I'm looking at the clock. I have one

11 or two, perhaps three, observations to be made. We've got two minutes

12 left. Is this a suitable moment? Of course, it interrupts the flow of

13 evidence, but ...

14 Mr. Radosevic, we have to finish for the day. We'd like to see

15 you back tomorrow, and that would be tomorrow morning, at 9.00 in the same

16 courtroom. Madam Usher will escort you out of the courtroom, but I'd like

17 to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have

18 given until now and the testimony still to be given in the days to come.

19 Would you please follow Madam Usher.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then a few observations.

23 First one, marking of maps. Does it make much sense to mark a map

24 for the first 3 kilometres, then another marked map for the next

25 5 kilometres? So if that could be concentrated. Of course, if other

Page 975

1 exhibits come in between, then it might be necessary to do it this way.

2 Then the second. Mr. Dutertre, there are no scales on the map.

3 Scales on a map have the advantage that if you enlarge the map or if you

4 reduce the size of the map, that the scale will enlarge with the map and

5 reduce with the size as well, because we are now looking at map 7, which

6 says, small, that it's a scale of 1:100.000, but to be quite honest, map

7 6, which seems to be taken from the same and certainly is reduced in size

8 or the other one is enlarged, is also 1:100.000. So it's totally

9 impossible, on the basis of the scales you provided the Chamber with, to

10 verify any distance.

11 So, therefore, could you inform the Chamber, sooner or later,

12 whether the scale on map number 7, which is now Exhibit P10 and marked for

13 identification, 11 and 12, whether that's really 1:100.000 or whether it

14 has been enlarged already? And you're invited to provide us with maps

15 with scales on it, rather than just an indication of what the scale was in

16 the original.

17 Then, finally, a third observation. You have spent approximately

18 55 minutes with the witness now. The witness was scheduled for one hour.

19 We have the witness statement. We know what incident he'll testify about.

20 I would be surprised if you would finish within five minutes. This

21 witness, however, there were no objections from the Defence, the witness

22 is responding at a pace which is rather above than below the average, so

23 therefore I again express the concerns of the Chamber in relation -- in

24 respect of the assessment you've made on how much time every witness would

25 need. But still, it's your 125 hours, but I thought it wise to say it now

Page 976

1 and not once you had used 100 hours.

2 We will adjourn and resume tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of

5 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.