Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1365

1 Monday, 19 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

7 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have been informed that there are a few

9 procedural matters. Let me just try to understand whether I was well

10 informed about what they are.

11 First, proposal in relation to the notification of witness order.

12 The Chamber has received a copy of a letter that was sent to Mr. Zahar.

13 Mr. Re, are you intending to respond to that letter or to make a

14 counter-proposal, whatever?

15 MR. RE: We will, of course, but I only received it -- I just

16 want to say one thing, and no doubt it's an unintentional oversight by

17 Mr. Emmerson, but one thing which he didn't refer to last week when he

18 referred to the Milutinovic order was the counter-order by the Trial

19 Chamber there --

20 JUDGE ORIE: So you are going to introduce that in your response,

21 then, or --

22 MR. RE: Well, that's the one requiring the Defence to notify the

23 prediction of exhibits it intends to rely upon, and for the notification

24 of the Defence, in case they haven't seen it - and I'm sure they haven't

25 because they would have referred the Trial Chamber to it - it's a 16 --

Page 1366

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not seeking at this moment to discuss the

2 matter. I just established that a proposal was made and whether we could

3 receive a response from the Prosecution, and if the Prosecution would --

4 fears perhaps that the Defence was not fully informed, then I take it

5 that the Prosecution will assist the Defence in getting full information

6 so that the exchange of views on paper is as complete as possible and

7 will guide the Chamber in deciding the matter, if there's no agreement.

8 MR. RE: Just in terms of what I can respond to. I can't respond

9 today. I can respond on Wednesday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Response on Wednesday. Then we would like to

11 receive your response on Wednesday.

12 Then I have understood that another issue would be whether the

13 next two witnesses have already been proofed and whether there's any

14 material available for the Defence.

15 MR. EMMERSON: May I simply clarify?


17 MR. EMMERSON: We know that they have already been proofed

18 because certain proofing notes were provided last week before the orders

19 were made about the taping of proofing sessions. The request was for

20 clarification as to whether any proofing sessions were conducted after

21 their arrival in The Hague and, therefore, whether there are further

22 proofing notes to be forthcoming. We received, as I say, proofing notes,

23 I think, on Saturday morning.


25 Mr. Re.

Page 1367

1 MR. RE: The answer is no. Mr. Di Fazio has emphatically told

2 Mr. Emmerson before court that, and I don't know why he's raising it

3 again. We've told him that there are none.

4 I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr. Di Fazio told me he didn't know. The

5 answer is no.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is no. That's at least --

7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm grateful for that, in which case once court

8 rises, we can take a view on the material which has so far been served

9 and make our position clear to the Prosecution as to provision of that

10 material to the Trial Chamber. It's conceivable that as a result of that

11 lack of clarity, Your Honours may receive the material slightly later

12 than would otherwise be the case. But can I assure you this: It's

13 short. It doesn't take very long to master.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then another issue I do understand the Chamber will

15 consider that whether the order for audio-recording of proofing sessions,

16 whether that would extend beyond the weekend. Of course, it's a

17 temporary measure, that may be clear, but since we are still waiting for

18 further submissions on the matter, the Chamber will consider during the

19 next break whether or not to extend the order for audio-recording of

20 proofing sessions.

21 Then the fourth item I've got on my list is that there are

22 Rule 68 matters to be raised, of which the Chamber would like to hear

23 what exactly the issue is and also remind the party who would like to

24 raise it that there may be a reason to go into private session. I'm not

25 aware of anything, but ...

Page 1368

1 Mr. Emmerson.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Out of an abundance of caution, might we go into

3 private session and then re-open it if I've been overcautious?


5 Madam Registrar.

6 [Private session]

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Page 1397

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber was in private session for quite a

20 while today since it had to discuss with the parties a lot of procedural

21 issues which were characterised by the confidentiality of the information

22 we were discussing.

23 We will adjourn. We will resume at 4.00, Mr. Emmerson, unless

24 you --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Just one question.

Page 1398


2 MR. EMMERSON: Do Your Honours still intend after this current

3 break to give a decision in general on the interim arrangements for

4 proofing sessions prior to the resolution of the issue to be argued in

5 documents on Wednesday? In other words, not simply confined to the

6 witness we've just been discussing in closed session but more generally.

7 Because, for all we may know, there may be proofing sessions taking place

8 as we speak that the Prosecution do not consider to be covered by the

9 weekend order.

10 MR. RE: For the sake of transparency, I mean, we've taken the

11 view you've made an interim ruling. There were two proofing sessions

12 today, I've asked for them to be taped. There was one on the weekend

13 with Witness 49 that has been taped. We take the view that until Your

14 Honours have made a ruling contrary, which we hope that you do when

15 you've received our --


17 MR. RE: -- written submissions, that we will tape them.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's appreciated, I take it, also by the

19 Defence.

20 Then we'll adjourn until -- we'll resume at 4.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 4.06 p.m.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/19 [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 1399

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to re-examine the

3 witness?

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I am, and I'll be very brief.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

6 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

7 Q. Thank you, Witness, for coming back after the weekend. I just

8 want to ask you --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before you put questions to the witness, I first

10 wanted to apologise for our late start. You had to wait for quite a

11 while, and, unfortunately, it's not the first time.

12 Second, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

13 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony that

14 you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. I just want to ask you some questions about what you said when

18 counsel for the Defence cross-examined you. Just two topics.

19 Firstly, Mr. Guy-Smith asked you some questions concerning the KLA

20 headquarters, and you said that there was one in the village -- in your

21 village and that it had been a clinic, and during the war it served as a

22 KLA headquarters. Do you remember that evidence?

23 A. Poh.

24 Q. Is your answer ...

25 A. Yes.

Page 1400

1 Q. You were then asked some questions about travel authorisations.

2 Now, did you ever go to this headquarters in your village or are you

3 aware of any member of your family going to this headquarters to seek

4 travel authorisations?

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point, I'd object to that question as

6 being compound, dealing with two separate subject matters.


8 Could you split it up?


10 Q. Did you ever go to this KLA headquarters to seek travel

11 authorisation?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth is having a problem hearing

13 the witness. We can't hear the witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second.

15 Witness, could you try to speak in the microphone?

16 Perhaps you better repeat the question once, Mr. Di Fazio.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Witness -- thank you, Your Honours.

18 Q. Witness, I'll just repeat my question so that you -- you were

19 just reminded again after that problem with the microphones.

20 My question was this: Did you ever go to the headquarters, the

21 headquarters in your village, to seek travel authorisation?

22 A. I went with a member of my family, and we received authorisation.

23 I went with my family member to take that authorisation.

24 Q. In your questions on -- in your answers on Friday, you explained

25 that your family members from time to time needed travel authorisations,

Page 1401

1 you said, "Although personally I didn't go to get it." You then went on

2 to say that you had gone to get travel authorisations with your brother

3 and/or sister, but when that happened you stayed outside because you were

4 scared and you were young. Do you recall that evidence?

5 A. Yes, I remember it.

6 Q. All right. Now, what I'd like to know is this: When you went

7 with your brother and sister to get travel authorisations but were scared

8 and remained outside, which village was this in?

9 A. On Friday I remembered it well, but now ...

10 Q. Okay. Do I understand that you can't recall the village where

11 you went to get travel authorisations? Do I understand you correctly?

12 A. In the village where I was, in Ratis.

13 Q. On Friday, you were asked questions by Mr. Guy-Smith about this

14 issue and Mr. Guy-Smith put this question to you and you gave this

15 answer, and I'll read it out to you so listen to what is being said:

16 Question by Mr. Guy-Smith: "In the statement of 2004 you weren't

17 scared, were you? And you used this, and by 'this,' I mean getting

18 travel authorisation as a basis for identifying Idriz Balaj as Toger.

19 Isn't that what you did?"

20 And --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And your answer was this: "What I said is that I saw him while

23 the headquarters was there, but I didn't say that I went to that place

24 personally to get a travel authorisation."

25 So what you said on Friday was that you said to some investigator

Page 1402

1 in a statement --

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I'm going to object to

3 Mr. Di Fazio testifying at this point.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you formulate your question in such a way that

5 you do not tell the witness what he said to the investigator.


7 Q. Quite apart from what you said to anyone in a statement, did you

8 see him, namely, Toger, in fact on any occasions that you went to get

9 travel authorisations?

10 A. I can't remember.

11 Q. All right. You were asked some questions about --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps we should go into private session very

13 briefly, if Your Honours please.

14 [Private session]

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Page 1404

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4 [Open session]

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since I have no further questions for you and

7 my colleagues also have no further questions for you, Witness, this

8 concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you for coming

9 to The Hague and to answer all the questions that are put to you, and I

10 wish you a safe trip home again. You may now follow Madam Usher, who

11 will escort you out of the courtroom.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to call its next

15 witness?

16 MR. KEARNEY: We are, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kearney. Then protective measures?

18 MR. KEARNEY: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Same; that is, face distortion, voice

20 distortion, and pseudonym.

21 Madam Usher left the courtroom so it's difficult to instruct her

22 to bring the witness in.

23 Yes. Then perhaps we could use our time -- Madam Registrar, are

24 there any exhibits pending for admission?

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 1405

1 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness 4, because we will not use your own name,

4 but we will use a pseudonym.

5 Witness 4, before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of

6 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

7 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

8 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make

9 that solemn declaration?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I

11 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated.

15 I wanted to inform you that we are not only not using your name,

16 but your face cannot be seen by the outside world, neither can your voice

17 be heard by the outside world.

18 Madam Registrar, usually it takes 20 minutes to adapt the voice

19 distortion, but here it has been checked prior.

20 Then, Witness 4, you'll first be examined by Mr. Kearney, who is

21 counsel for the Prosecution.

22 Mr. Kearney, please proceed.

23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, thank you.

24 At the outset, I'd like to move into private session for the

25 purposes of identifying this witness.

Page 1406

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll move into private session.

2 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness --

3 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

23 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Witness number 4, in 1998 you've told us about how big your

25 family was. I want to ask you simply if at that time your father was

Page 1408

1 alive?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When was it he died, if you could tell us, please?

4 A. My father died in 1995.

5 Q. What was the cause of his death, if you could tell us?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

7 (redacted)

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Kearney, I'll ask for a redaction, and we'll

9 go into private session for a second.

10 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, in an abundance of caution, the next

21 questions about his occupation, the Court may want to hear in private

22 session.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll move back into private session.

24 [Private session]

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Page 1409

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22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


Page 1410

1 Q. Witness 4, after your father's death, did Mr. Prascevic continue

2 to have a relationship with your family?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And could you please tell us about that relationship. What was

5 the nature of it?

6 A. After my father died we needed things. We needed tools to work

7 the land and also foodstuff, things to buy.

8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, in an abundance of caution, the next

9 area may be best handled in private session.


11 [Private session]

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Page 1411











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Page 1427

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


24 Q. Mr. Witness -- or, Witness 4, let me rephrase that last question

25 or say it again. After this first visit by the men in your home, was

Page 1428

1 there another visit after that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long after the first visit was that second visit?

4 A. I think it was one week or two weeks later. I'm not sure. I

5 didn't count the days.

6 Q. Again, this next visit, when did it happen? What time of day was

7 it?

8 A. It was about 10 p.m., at night.

9 Q. Tell us what happened, if you could, during this second visit.

10 A. When they came for the second visit, we were at home, asleep.

11 Q. In your home, how did the members of your family sleep in

12 relation to each other? Were there separate rooms for girls, boys? How

13 did the sleeping arrangements work, please, in your home during that time

14 period?

15 A. The brothers slept together, and my mother and the sisters slept

16 in another room.

17 Q. During this next visit that we're talking about, were you asleep

18 when the men arrived or were you awake?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Yes, you were asleep? Or you were awake when they came?

21 A. We were asleep, but when they came they woke us up.

22 Q. Tell us what you saw or heard after you were awakened.

23 A. They came inside, and there was still one of them who was keeping

24 guard at the door.

25 Q. What did the men want, if you know, during this visit?

Page 1429

1 A. During this visit, well, I don't know because they went to my

2 mother and my sisters. That's what I heard.

3 Q. What happened after the men went to your mother and your sisters?

4 A. We heard this name being repeated over and over again, "Toger,"

5 "Toger."

6 Q. Who was saying this name over and over again?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Was it one of your sisters or your mother, or was it one of the

9 men who entered your home?

10 A. No. It was a man who was with them.

11 Q. You indicated that there was another guard posted at your door

12 during this visit; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you get a look at this man?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please describe what he was wearing, for us, and if he was armed?

17 A. He was wearing a mask and army clothes.

18 Q. Describe the army clothes for us, please. What colour were they?

19 Did they have any insignia on them?

20 A. Well, they were military clothes, and I can't remember whether

21 they had any insignia on -- KLA insignia, or not.

22 Q. To your knowledge, were they members of the KLA?

23 A. That's what I think. And this is what I thought later, as a

24 matter of fact, because at that moment I didn't know what to think.

25 Q. You mentioned that you heard the name Toger being used during

Page 1430

1 this visit by the armed men. Or during the manner -- excuse me. In what

2 manner was that name being used, please, if you can tell us?

3 A. I don't know how they used the name, but I remember one of the

4 soldiers that was there, one of his soldiers, called him that.

5 Q. You mentioned that this man who guarded your door during this

6 visit was wearing military-style clothing. Did he have any

7 military-style arms, or weapons, with him?

8 A. Yes, he did.

9 Q. Please describe those for us, if you could.

10 A. Well, at that time there was no electricity, so I couldn't see

11 clearly what kind of gun they had.

12 Q. Did he have some type of gun with him, this gentleman that was

13 guarding you?

14 A. He did have a gun, and it was a big one.

15 Q. How long did the men stay in your home on this occasion?

16 A. I can't remember exactly but probably half an hour, one hour. As

17 I told you, I'm not sure how long they stayed.

18 Q. And do you know what the purpose of this visit was?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What was it?

21 A. That night when they came, they told my mother that they wanted

22 to take my sister with them.

23 Q. And is this something you heard that night or is this something

24 that your mother told you at some -- at a later point?

25 A. No. It was in the morning that my mother told me.

Page 1431

1 Q. Your mother told you that they wanted to take your sister. Did

2 she tell you why they wanted to take your sister?

3 A. Yes, because Toger had told her that each family has to have a

4 soldier in the army.

5 Q. Did your mother indicate to you if any of the men who came into

6 your home on this night identified themselves to her?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did she tell you in that regard, please?

9 A. When I spoke with my mother, she said that one person had told

10 her, I am Togeri, and that he had asked for the daughter.

11 Q. Without using a proper name, please tell us which daughter it was

12 that this man named Toger wanted?

13 A. Toger was asking for S.

14 Q. Did your mum tell you anything about who was in charge of these

15 men when they came into your home that night?

16 A. You mean that night?

17 Q. Yes. Did she tell you anything about who she thought to be in

18 charge of these men?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, at this point I've refrained from

20 objecting, but I'm interposing my usual objection because I figure that

21 the Chamber would respond in the usual way. But we've had now an

22 outstanding amount of hearsay, and I understand the Chamber will take it

23 in due course and give it whatever weight is due.

24 Now we're moving into an area where the level of speculation and

25 lack of foundation is such that in the absence of some factual

Page 1432

1 information prior to such a question being answered, I think that it's

2 beyond being fatal from the standpoint of a conclusion.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question was whether the mother told

4 anything to the mother. That's a permissible question.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


7 Q. Witness number 4, do you have my question in mind or shall I

8 repeat it for you?

9 A. If you could, please, repeat it.

10 Q. Did your mother tell you anything about who she thought to be in

11 charge of these men when they entered your home to take your sister S?

12 A. From what my mother told me the next day, she said, There is this

13 person called Togeri, and he had told her that he wanted to take her

14 daughter away as every family had to have someone in the army.

15 Q. Did your mother tell you how she herself felt about her daughter

16 being taken by the KLA?

17 A. After we spoke with my mother, my mother told me, told us, that

18 she didn't want to let her go.

19 Q. That night when the men came for sister S, did they, in fact,

20 take your sister with them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever see sister S again?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When?

25 A. I'm not sure when she came back, but it was four days later that

Page 1433

1 she visited us.

2 Q. Were you home on that occasion when she came back to visit you?

3 A. When do you mean?

4 Q. Four days later when your sister came back to visit you, were you

5 at home at that time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What time of the day or night was it that your sister came back

8 on this occasion?

9 A. It was in the morning.

10 Q. Please tell us about that visit, if you could.

11 A. When she came, so it was my sister S, with Toger.

12 Q. How do you know that -- when your sister came back to the home,

13 was she with someone? Was she alone or with someone?

14 A. She was with Toger.

15 Q. And how is it you know that the person she was with was Toger?

16 A. Because my mother had told us about what had happened that night

17 and we started to learn about who this person was, I mean Togeri.

18 Q. And what was it that you learned about this person Togeri?

19 A. My sister came, as I said, she came inside while he left in his

20 car. He was a little further away from the house.

21 Q. Did you see him on this occasion?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. What was he wearing?

24 A. He was wearing black clothes.

25 Q. The black clothes he was wearing, were they civilian in nature or

Page 1434

1 were they military in nature?

2 A. No. They were military.

3 Q. How about your sister? What was she wearing when she came back

4 to your home after she had been taken initially by the KLA?

5 A. My sister was also wearing special unit clothes, black clothes.

6 Q. Were they military in nature or were they civilian in nature?

7 A. Special unit clothes, black.

8 Q. When you say "special unit clothes," what do you mean, please?

9 A. At that time I learned this from my sister, that these are

10 clothes that the special unit wear.

11 Q. Did your sister tell you what the name of the special unit was?

12 A. No. We just asked her, What kind of clothes are these, because

13 we had never seen them before, and then she told us what they were.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I'm looking at the clock. We need a

15 break. Would this be a suitable moment or would you find another

16 suitable moment within the next couple of minutes?

17 MR. KEARNEY: This would be fine, Your Honour.


19 Then at the same time, Mr. Kearney, I see the witness was

20 scheduled for one hour and a half. You started your

21 examination-in-chief, without major interruptions, at 23 minutes past

22 4.00. That means that you're close to five-quarters of an hour now.

23 From what this Chamber could speculate on the basis of the statement, you

24 might not be able to conclude in the next 18 minutes, would you?

25 MR. KEARNEY: I don't believe so, Your Honour.

Page 1435

1 JUDGE ORIE: No. Yes, I do understand that, but I express again

2 my concern, what seems to be a contagious disease.

3 We stand adjourned until five minutes to 6.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.

7 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness 4, when we left off, we were talking about your sister's

9 visit back to your home. You were talking about the special unit clothes

10 that she was wearing. I want to ask you if, at that time, you had seen

11 in your village, or in your area, regular KLA soldiers anywhere on the

12 roads or in the villages during that period?

13 A. No, I had not seen.

14 Q. When your sister came back to see you after she had been taken,

15 what was her demeanour or attitude, if you can tell us, please?

16 A. You mean my sister, what kind of demeanour she had when she came

17 back?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. The day she came back, she said that she had been brought there

20 to take some clothes. It was just a short visit.

21 Q. Did she seem happy, sad? Did she have any kind of a different

22 demeanour than she had the last time you had seen her?

23 A. I couldn't tell.

24 Q. This special unit clothing she was wearing, did it have any

25 insignia on it?

Page 1436

1 A. Yes. KLA insignia on the arm.

2 Q. Would you recognise that insignia if you saw it again?

3 A. I think so, yes.

4 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, with the Court's permission, I'd like

5 to show the witness Exhibit number P9.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the screen.


8 Q. Is that similar to the patch she was wearing or the insignia she

9 was wearing on the day in question?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Before that day when you saw it on your sister's clothing, had

12 you ever seen that patch, or insignia, before?

13 A. The first time when they came, the first time, I think I saw it,

14 but as I told you, I was not paying too much attention to those things.

15 Q. After that first time the men came to your home, which you've

16 told us about, were there other visits by these men to your home before

17 your sister S was taken?

18 A. Before they took my sister? Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us how many times these men came to your home during

20 that period, from the first time they came until they took your sister S?

21 A. I remember the first time they came when they said they had come

22 to search the house for guns and take some money, and then the second

23 time when they took my sister.

24 Q. On either of these visits to your home that you've described for

25 us, did you recognise any of the men who came, besides Toger?

Page 1437

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to object. That misstates the

2 evidence.

3 MR. KEARNEY: I can rephrase the question, Your Honour, if you

4 like.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Kearney.


7 Q. Besides the gentleman that you've referred to as Toger, among the

8 other people who came to your home on either of the occasions you've told

9 us about, did you recognise any of them?

10 A. I'm saying that we recognised only Toger at the time.

11 Q. Did your sister tell you anything else during this first visit to

12 your home after she had been taken?

13 A. The first time they took her, she wasn't saying anything to us.

14 Just where she was staying and what she was doing.

15 Q. And at some point that first -- during that first visit, did she

16 leave?

17 A. Who do you mean?

18 Q. Your sister. After the first visit was concluded, did she leave

19 your home?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. How did she leave --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, before we continue there, I'd like to

23 seek some clarification of one of the previous answers.

24 Witness 4, you said: "The first time they took her, she wasn't

25 saying anything to us. Just where she was staying and what she was

Page 1438

1 doing."

2 Where did she say she was staying?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we asked her, she said that

4 she was staying in Irzniq village.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And what did she say she was doing?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She said, We are staying at the

7 Irzniq school, the old school, as they call it.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was what she said she was doing,

9 apart from where she was staying?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time she came, she did

11 not tell us lots of things. She just said that, We are staying there,

12 and this and that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "And this and that," could you be a bit more

14 explicit about that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I mean is that when a person

16 doesn't want to tell you things, says, This and that, and this is what

17 I'm telling you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


20 Q. She mentioned an old school that she was staying in; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you know which building she was talking about?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What building was that?

Page 1439

1 A. The old school in Irzniq. That's what they used to call it.

2 Q. Do you know who, if anyone, was using that old school building

3 during this time period?

4 A. You mean before the war?

5 Q. No, during the war.

6 A. We had heard also from our sister that the army was staying

7 there.

8 Q. Which army was this?

9 A. The KLA.

10 Q. How did your sister -- how was it your sister left your home

11 after this first visit?

12 A. She said she did not have much time to stay; she had to go back.

13 Q. And how, physically, did she leave? Did she go on foot? Did she

14 go in a vehicle? How did she leave your home that day?

15 A. By car.

16 Q. Whose car was it?

17 A. Toger's car. It was a Niva.

18 Q. Did you see him take her away on that day?

19 A. That day he stayed there a little bit farther from the house. He

20 did not go anywhere; he just waited a little bit farther away.

21 Q. When you say "a little farther away," how far away from your home

22 was he?

23 A. About 50 metres.

24 Q. Was he by himself or was he with someone in that location?

25 A. I couldn't see anyone else.

Page 1440

1 Q. How long did he stay in that location before he drove your sister

2 away?

3 A. If we're talking about the first visit, he did not stay long.

4 Q. Can you estimate how long he was there, for us?

5 A. About 30 to 40 minutes.

6 Q. Were you able to see him during that period?

7 A. Who do you mean?

8 Q. Were you able to see this man you're referring to as Toger during

9 this period?

10 A. When my sister got out of the house to go with him, she went

11 there, because he was, as I said, 50 metres away.

12 Q. And did you see him at that point?

13 A. The Toger, you mean?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. After that first visit, did you see your sister again?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How long after the first visit did you see her?

19 A. I'm not sure how long after it was, but maybe one week or two

20 weeks after that.

21 Q. During this second visit, how did your sister arrive to your

22 home?

23 A. Toger brought him [sic] in his car. He left.

24 Q. Did you see that, Witness 4? Did you see this gentleman named

25 Toger drop your sister off on this second visit?

Page 1441

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. During this second visit, did you get a chance to talk with your

3 sister?

4 A. Not at that moment, no. After she came inside the house -- into

5 the house and she stayed for some time there, then I could speak to her.

6 Q. Was this second visit shorter or longer than the first visit?

7 A. The second visit was much longer.

8 Q. What did she tell you, if anything, about where she had been and

9 what she was doing?

10 A. After we asked her where she was staying and what she was doing,

11 she told us.

12 Q. And what was it that she told you?

13 A. She said that there was a prison in Janic -- Irzniq.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.


16 Q. Who was this prison run by?

17 A. The KLA.

18 Q. And when you use the term "Irzniq," are you referring also to --

19 or is that village also named Rznic?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Did your sister tell you anything about what she saw in this

22 prison in Rznic?

23 A. The mother said that she saw some prisoners of young and old age.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Who said that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] S, my sister.

Page 1442

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


3 Q. Did she tell you how many prisoners she saw?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did she tell you anything about what she had done or what her

6 orders were, in general, as a member of the KLA?

7 A. Yes. She talked to us. She said that she had received orders

8 from Togeri to kill somebody, and then if she didn't kill him, then he

9 would kill me.

10 Q. Did she tell you who, if anyone, was the commander of the KLA in

11 Rznic?

12 A. No. I don't remember.

13 Q. After this second visit was concluded, how was it your sister

14 left the home?

15 A. After the last visit, it was about 3.00 in the afternoon, she

16 told me that she should go.

17 Q. And how was it she left? Did she leave on foot? Did she leave

18 in a car? How did that happen?

19 A. She went by foot. I saw her off.

20 Q. What do you mean by that, that you saw her off?

21 A. I accompanied her. I went together with her.

22 Q. How far did you go with her?

23 A. We went up to a place called Vohu i Ratishit. That's how it is

24 called.

25 Q. At some point, did you leave her that day?

Page 1443

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After leaving her that day, did you ever see Toger?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell us about that, please.

5 A. [No interpretation].

6 JUDGE ORIE: The translation is missing.

7 Witness, we do not receive your translation at this moment, I

8 should say the translation of your words. You were asked whether after

9 you left your sister that day, whether you ever saw Toger. You answered

10 yes, and you were invited to tell us about it. Could you please repeat

11 your answer? You started to that question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I came back, after I

13 accompanied my sister, I came back home. After about 10, 15 minutes,

14 then Toger came with the Niva car.


16 Q. Did you have a conversation with Toger during that time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please tell us what was said?

19 A. He said, Why was my sister late? I told him that she had just

20 left.

21 Q. Was there any further conversation?

22 A. No. No, no, not anymore.

23 Q. When you had this conversation with this person named Toger, how

24 far from you was he? Were you -- please tell us, if you know?

25 A. I don't remember, but probably 7, 8, 9 metres away.

Page 1444

1 Q. What time of the day was that?

2 A. It was about 4.00 in the afternoon.

3 Q. Could you see his face at that time?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness number 4, after sister S was taken, was another family

6 member of yours taken from your home as well?

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, at this point I'm going to object to the

8 manner of the question that's been put to the witness, because we have a

9 sister who has come and gone, and come and gone, a number of times. So

10 it's, if anything, vague.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you could specify a bit more which

12 family member you had in mind, Mr. Kearney.

13 MR. KEARNEY: I will, Your Honour, thank you.

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: First, I remember the witness having said,

15 instead of the second visit, her last visit, which makes me ask: Was the

16 second visit her last visit, or did you see her again there or somewhere

17 else?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I saw her only on these two

19 occasions.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


22 Q. And just to follow up on that question, after this second visit

23 by sister S you told us about, have you ever seen your sister again?

24 A. No.

25 Q. After this last visit by sister S, did a group of men come back

Page 1445

1 to your home?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long after the last visit of sister S was this?

4 A. I don't remember exactly, but probably after two, three weeks.

5 Q. Witness number 4, can you tell us anything about what time of

6 year this was, this visit we're about to talk about? So it's two to

7 three weeks after the last visit of sister S. Can you tell us what month

8 or what season of 1998 this was?

9 A. I remember it was autumn.

10 Q. And beyond that, can you be any more specific?

11 A. I remember at that time we wanted to go away and we were

12 harvesting the corn.

13 Q. All right. Describe for us, please, what happened when this

14 group of men came to your home?

15 A. They came to us, and we were told to go and take permission if we

16 wanted to go away.

17 Q. Describe these men, please.

18 A. Do you want me to mention their names?

19 Q. Yes, if you know them.

20 A. One was Togeri. Aslan Rexhepi, Sokol Zefi and Arush Islami.

21 Q. What time of the day or night was this visit we're talking about

22 now?

23 A. It was in the afternoon, probably 4.00. 4.00 or 5.00.

24 Q. You said at some point during this visit, someone told you that

25 you needed permission to leave; is that correct?

Page 1446

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Who was it that made that statement, if you know?

3 A. We wanted to go away and to go to make some visits, and we were

4 told that we needed to take permission before we would leave the place.

5 Q. When you say "we wanted to go away," who are you talking about,

6 please?

7 A. My family.

8 Q. Where was it that you wanted to go?

9 A. We wanted to visit -- can we mention the name?

10 MR. KEARNEY: May we go into private session, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's perhaps -- I don't know what the answer will

12 be, so therefore -- perhaps we'll go into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1447

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


11 Q. Witness 4, what I'm asking you, simply, is where did you hear

12 that? Where did you hear that you needed permission to make that trip

13 you've just described?

14 A. We had -- this was only hearsay. Nobody had told us directly

15 this.

16 Q. And after you heard this, that you needed to get permission to

17 travel, did you attempt to get permission to travel?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you do that?

20 A. We went -- can I mention names or can I speak without mentioning

21 names?

22 JUDGE ORIE: You can give names unless you are hesitant to do so

23 because you feel that there may be a security risk involved for the

24 persons whose name you're giving; and if that is the case, then you can

25 address me and we could consider to go into private session.

Page 1448

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we went to take permission in

2 the village, Aslan Rexhepi and Sokol Zefi were the people who should give

3 us permission.


5 Q. And where in the village did you go to get this permission?

6 A. We went to the village, Ratis.

7 Q. And, Witness 4, we understand that, but was there a certain place

8 within the village of Ratis, a certain building or somewhere that you

9 went, in particular, to go to seek this permission to travel?

10 A. Yes, yes, yes.

11 Q. And where within the village of Ratis did you go to try and get

12 that permission?

13 A. I went to a shop, to a shop. That's the place.

14 Q. And who was in this shop?

15 A. Aslan Rexhepi, Sokol Zefi.

16 Q. What type of shop was this?

17 A. It was a shop of housery [as interpreted], something like this.

18 It's a normal shop.

19 Q. And during the war, was it operating as a normal shop or was it

20 operating as something else?

21 A. No. It was used as a staff.

22 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer. Could you repeat your

23 answer, please? It was used as what?

24 A. It was used as headquarters.

25 Q. For whom?

Page 1449

1 A. It was used as a headquarters for the village to control what was

2 happening in the village.

3 Q. And the headquarters for what organisation?

4 A. The headquarters of the KLA.

5 Q. When you went to this headquarters to get permission and you saw

6 Aslan Rexhepi and Sokol Zefi, did you talk with them about getting

7 permission to travel?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did they tell you?

10 A. They issued a document for me to go. They issued a document to

11 go only as far as that village, not beyond that village.

12 Q. Can you describe that document for us, please?

13 A. It was a piece of paper, normal piece of paper.

14 Q. Did it have any writings or pictures or graphs, or anything else,

15 or any other image on it?

16 A. No, no. It was simply written by hand.

17 Q. Who was it signed by, if anybody?

18 A. It was signed by Aslan Rexhepi.

19 Q. When you met Aslan Rexhepi that day, was he in civilian clothes

20 or was he in uniform?

21 A. He was wearing army clothes.

22 Q. Again, describe them for us, please? Which army, and what type

23 of clothes?

24 A. He was wearing sort of army clothes, camouflage.

25 Q. Were there any insignia on this camouflage uniform?

Page 1450

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What type?

3 A. The KLA.

4 Q. This camouflage uniform that you saw Mr. Rexhepi wearing on the

5 day in question, was it different than the uniform that you'd seen your

6 sister wearing and you'd seen Toger wearing?

7 A. Yes, it was different.

8 Q. After you received this travel document, did you actually try and

9 take this trip that you told us about?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did this travel document work? Along the way, did you

12 present that document to someone?

13 A. Sometimes.

14 Q. Please tell us about that.

15 A. When we were stopped by somebody, then we had to show the

16 document, to tell them where we were going to.

17 Q. How many times did you have to show this document on the road to

18 -- on the way to Bucan?

19 A. Only once, as far as I remember.

20 Q. And who was it that asked for it or who was it that you showed

21 this document to?

22 A. A soldier. I don't know who he was.

23 Q. A soldier of which army?

24 A. KLA.

25 Q. Was -- where was it that you showed this KLA soldier your travel

Page 1451

1 document?

2 A. Can I mention the name?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the same as I said before. If you have any

4 concerns as far as safety and security of this person is involved, then

5 you may apply for private session; but, otherwise, just give us the

6 names.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Maznik.


9 Q. And in Maznik, where was it that you presented this document?

10 Was it at a -- was it at another store, or was it on the road, or was it

11 somewhere else, please?

12 A. At the headquarters. It was like an old house. I don't know

13 whether somebody used to live before.

14 Q. And, again, this was a KLA headquarters; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After showing the KLA soldier this document that you had got in

17 Rznic, were you allowed to travel on from Maznik to Bucan?

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I believe that Mr. Kearney misspoke

19 himself with regard to where he got the travel document. I believe he

20 got the travel document in Ratis, not in Rznic.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney.

22 MR. KEARNEY: I'll rephrase the question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


25 Q. After you presented this travel document to the soldier in

Page 1452

1 Maznik, were you allowed to pass on to Bucan?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You said earlier, Witness 4, that at some point after you sought

4 permission to travel you were visited in your home by Togeri and three

5 men who you named earlier; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did they tell you during that visit, if anything?

8 A. They came and told us, after I'd gone several times to take this

9 document -- I had gone to Zefi and the other person several times, but

10 they did not give me the documents.

11 Q. And when this person you've identified as Togeri and the three

12 men who you named earlier came to your house, what did they tell you

13 during that visit to your home?

14 A. They came to the house. They talked to the mother.

15 Q. And did you hear that conversation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did they tell your mother?

18 A. They told my mother that there was -- that no document could be

19 issued to go anywhere, and they told her that if she would go anywhere,

20 she would be killed.

21 Q. Did they tell her why this was, that she could not go anywhere?

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1453

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After that warning to your mother, did anything happen to her?

6 A. After some time --

7 Q. How long?

8 A. To be honest, I don't know. Maybe a week later. I was not

9 counting the days at that time.

10 Q. Please tell us what happened during this next incident?

11 A. That night, it was after 10.00 at night, Toger came together with

12 a couple of other persons, three or four persons.

13 Q. Did you yourself see Togeri that evening?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Again, please, tell us how Togeri and the men were dressed?

16 A. Toger had the same clothes on.

17 Q. When you say "same clothes on," are you referring to the black

18 uniform?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On the uniform, was there a KLA insignia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was he armed?

23 A. I didn't notice that night whether he was armed or not, but all

24 other times he was armed. So maybe he did have a gun that time as well.

25 Q. Was he wearing a mask or no mask on this occasion?

Page 1454

1 A. No mask, no.

2 Q. How were the other men that were with him dressed?

3 A. I did not see the others. I only saw a couple of them. The

4 others were outside while he and a couple of others were inside -- well,

5 at the door.

6 Q. Did you recognise any of the men -- any of the other men besides

7 the person you described as Togeri?

8 A. No. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Tell us what happened, please, after they came.

10 A. That night they were asking questions about my brother, my eldest

11 brother.

12 Q. Without mentioning his name, what was the general nature of the

13 conversation, please?

14 A. They discussed about my older brother. At that time, he was in

15 prison.

16 Q. After this conversation about your brother, was there any more

17 conversation between the men and yourself or your mother?

18 A. They asked my mother where my brother was because they had heard

19 he had been released from prison.

20 Q. And did your mother respond to them?

21 A. Yes. She said that as far as we knew, he was still in prison.

22 Q. These questions that were being asked about your brother, who was

23 asking them?

24 A. Toger asked questions that night about my brother.

25 Q. Based on your own personal observations, Witness number 4, could

Page 1455

1 you tell who was in charge or command of these men who came over that

2 evening?

3 A. I don't know about that night. I don't know.

4 Q. What happened next?

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, we'll move into private session rather

9 than ...

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1456











11 Pages 1456-1457 redacted. Private session.















Page 1458

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

17 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I am trying, as much as I can, to

18 proceed quickly through this material. I'm reducing the number of

19 exhibits that I'm introducing before the Court. And I understand the

20 time concerns by the Panel. There just happens to be a large amount of

21 material to gain from this witness. I would guess -- I would guess

22 between 60 and 90 minutes I will be completed with my direct examination.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I take 75 minutes, which is between 60 and

24 90, if I add to the time you've used already until now, that would bring

25 you considerably over three hours where the witness was scheduled for one

Page 1459

1 hour and a half. I'm not criticising you for not efficiently examining

2 this witness. I'm concerned about all the witnesses until now that have

3 taken approximately anything between one and a half and two times the

4 time, if not more, scheduled for those witnesses. That's my main

5 concern.

6 Then I'd like to ask your attention for another matter, which is

7 the following: It seems that one date is agreed between the parties as a

8 clear date; that was the 2nd of March. If I add all the weeks or the

9 four days or the two weeks, et cetera, this is asked to the witness again

10 and again, two weeks hospital, two weeks until the first search visit,

11 and then another two weeks for the -- well, altogether, if I take always

12 the upper assessment, then I'm somewhere very early June where the

13 witness says it's already autumn. There might be a matter in awareness

14 of time and awareness of what a week is, what a month is, what a day is.

15 And since it confuses, I would like to ask special attention for that

16 aspect, to you and later for the Defence as well.

17 Then we will adjourn for the day --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: May I rise? Just a very, very brief matter, just

21 to ensure smoothness.

22 As you know, Mr. Re has handled a good number of issues that tend

23 to arise at the beginning of the day, varying topics and issues that

24 arise, procedural matters --


Page 1460

1 MR. DI FAZIO: -- that arise at the beginning of the day and there

2 may be some tomorrow. He has up until now been dealing with them. If

3 there are any to be raised by the Defence tomorrow that they're aware of

4 in advance, it would be useful to the Prosecution to simply have an idea

5 at least of what topic it is in advance so that I can, or Mr. Kearney

6 can, deal with that tomorrow in the light of the fact that Mr. Re has

7 dealt with so many of them. So I just -- if the Defence can assist, it

8 would assist me in -- or Mr. Kearney, in providing a swifter response.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that. At the same time, this

10 Chamber is not much inclined to spend always every day the first 45 to

11 50, 60 minutes on procedural matters. The parties are -- we did it

12 today, and, of course, it was a bit exceptional, but let's try to reduce

13 the time spent on that in court as much as we can. Try to find solutions

14 outside of court. If really -- it's impossible. I tried to speed up

15 procedural matters in the beginning, but I must admit that I was not very

16 successful.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm certainly not inviting any. I'm just saying

18 if there are to be, a heads-up would assist us to deal with it quickly.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We adjourn tomorrow, the 20th of March,

20 quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of

23 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.