Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1461

1 Tuesday, 20 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

8 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 The Chamber would prefer not to deal with any procedural matters

11 at this moment but to do, if there's a need to do that, later today, and

12 to start first with the continuation of the examination of the witness.

13 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/04 [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness 4. I would like to remind

19 you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

20 beginning of your testimony yesterday. Mr. Kearney will now continue to

21 examine you.

22 Mr. Kearney, please proceed.

23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, thank you.

24 Examination by Mr. Kearney: [Continued]

25 Q. Witness number 4, good afternoon.

Page 1462

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Yesterday we took -- when we took a break, we were just about

3 ready to discuss your sister M. And before we discuss her, I'd like to

4 ask you, or I want to clarify something from yesterday. You mentioned

5 the name of one of the men who repeatedly came to your home yesterday as

6 Toger, or Togeri. Just for the sake of the record, I want to ask you,

7 does that name have a meaning in Albanian?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer and speak in the

10 microphone because the interpreters could not hear your answer? Could

11 you please repeat it?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, it seems that the microphone of

13 the witness is not turned on.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your microphone seems not to be on. Let's

15 verify. Because the witness was speaking loud enough now but ... Could

16 you please repeat your answer again?

17 It could well be, since I heard him so well, that actually that I

18 receive what he said on the English channel. Let's try it again. Could

19 you again give an answer to the question whether Togeri means anything

20 special in Albanian?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of any special

22 meaning.


24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1463

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Please tell us about that.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I take it that you're fully aware that

4 if there's a need to go into private session, that we should do so.

5 MR. KEARNEY: I am aware. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

7 Yes, I'll ask Madam Registrar for a small redaction, but please

8 proceed.


10 Q. Witness 4, can you please, again, tell us what happened in

11 relation to your sister M?

12 A. It was night, I think it was around 10.30 p.m., when Toger with

13 some other soldiers came.

14 Q. When this incident happened, were you inside your home?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you inside your home?

17 A. We were in the room where we usually slept.

18 Q. When these men came to your home -- when Toger and these men came

19 to your home, were you sleeping or were you awake?

20 A. No. We were asleep.

21 Q. At some point during the incident, did you wake up?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know what it was, Witness 4, that woke you up that

24 evening?

25 A. That evening, when they came, they broke down the door, the entry

Page 1464

1 door.

2 Q. Is that the events that woke you up that evening?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell us what happened, please, after the entry door was broken

5 down?

6 A. That night, after they broke the door open, Toger and some other

7 soldiers entered the house.

8 Q. Did you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How many soldiers were with Togeri on this evening?

11 A. Four or five, but I don't know the exact number.

12 Q. Please tell us how both Toger and these men were dressed, if you

13 could?

14 A. Toger was wearing the clothes of the special unit, as always.

15 Q. Were these the clothes that were black in colour that you

16 described yesterday?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How about the other men? What were they wearing?

19 A. The other men, among whom Xhevat Islami, he came.

20 Q. Besides Xhevat Islami, did you recognise any of the other men?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. How was Xhevat Islami dressed?

23 A. He had camouflage military clothes.

24 Q. On those camouflage military clothes did he -- was there any

25 insignia visible to you?

Page 1465

1 A. I wasn't in position to see and pay attention because there was

2 no electricity at that time.

3 Q. Was there any light inside the home at all during that period?

4 A. Not ordinary light, but when they came they had flashlights.

5 Q. The camouflage-style clothing that Mr. Islami was wearing, had

6 you ever seen that kind of clothing before in your village or in the area

7 around your village during the war?

8 A. Well, the clothes that the military used to wear in the past, as

9 I described them yesterday.

10 Q. And when you say "the military," are you referring to the KLA?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. During this visit to your home, were the men wearing anything on

13 their faces?

14 A. Yes. Xhevat Islami was wearing a mask.

15 Q. And how about Togeri?

16 A. No, he didn't have a mask.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry to interrupt. How can you say who it was

18 if this person was wearing a mask?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say who it was because before

20 the war, he came to our house on many occasions.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


23 Q. These men that came into your home on the evening in question,

24 were they armed or un-armed?

25 A. Xhevat had a weapon.

Page 1466

1 Q. What type?

2 A. I didn't see it exactly. It was a rifle or another type of

3 weapon, but it was a kind of big weapon.

4 Q. How about Togeri? Was he armed that evening?

5 A. I would say yes, because he was always armed. Whenever I saw him

6 he was armed.

7 Q. What happened after these men came into your home this evening?

8 A. When these men came at our house that evening, Xhevat Islami said

9 that he had come to our house in the name of Ramush Haradinaj.

10 Q. Did you know who that was at that time, who Ramush Haradinaj was?

11 A. No. We had only heard of his name, Ramush, but I had never seen

12 him.

13 Q. When you say that Xhevat said he came in the name of Ramush

14 Haradinaj, what do you mean by that? Were those his exact words?

15 A. He said, I am Ramush.

16 Q. Did you believe him when he said that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Why not?

19 A. Because we knew who he was.

20 Q. During this incident did Togeri, himself, say anything?

21 A. Toger went to the other room where my sister was.

22 Q. Is that something you could see or could you hear? Please tell

23 us how you know that?

24 A. I saw him leaving our room and heading towards the room where my

25 sister was.

Page 1467

1 Q. While he was in your presence before he went to your sister's

2 room, did you hear him say anything?

3 A. No. He just went and took my sister with him and then went

4 outside at the entry door.

5 Q. Did any of the men tell you or any members of your family why

6 they were taking your sister?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. That's a compound question, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you split it up, Mr. Kearney.

10 MR. KEARNEY: I'd be happy to, Your Honour.

11 Q. Did any of the men tell you why they were taking your sister?

12 A. I don't know of anyone saying that.

13 Q. Were you able to see your sister as she was being taken from --

14 taken from your home?

15 A. I only saw her for a while when they took her.

16 Q. What was she wearing when they took her away?

17 A. Black clothes.

18 Q. Please describe them for us, if you can?

19 A. She was wearing black trousers, a black sweater, and a leather

20 jacket.

21 Q. Was she wearing anything on her feet that you know of?

22 A. No. I don't know that.

23 Q. When you say you don't know that, do you know if she was or was

24 not wearing shoes or you just don't know at all?

25 A. Well, the shoes that she usually wore, we found them in the house

Page 1468

1 the next day.

2 Q. Was she allowed to -- or did she take any personal belongings

3 with her the night that she was taken?

4 A. I don't know that. I really don't remember. I didn't see that.

5 Q. After your sister was taken from the home that night, did you

6 ever see her alive again?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. When was the next time you heard any news of her or her

9 whereabouts?

10 A. After this event, four days later, a person came and he told us

11 who it was.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What do you mean, "a person came"? Who was it,

13 and what did this person say, please?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This person was called Can Mala and

15 he was from Bardhaniq village.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And what did he say?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He came, asked us how we were

18 doing, and we just said, We're fine. And then he asked us, Did you lose

19 anything? And we said, Yes.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


22 Q. What was it that you told him you had lost?

23 A. We had lost our sister four days ago. He asked us what she was

24 wearing. We described what she was wearing, and then he said, Yes,

25 that's her.

Page 1469

1 Q. Can you spell for us, please, the first name of this man from

2 Bardhaniq who came to visit you?

3 A. Can Mala.

4 Q. The first name begins with the letter C; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did he go by any other names that you know of?

7 A. I don't know. I don't remember that.

8 Q. You indicate that he was from the village of Bardhaniq; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How far is that village from Ratis?

12 A. I don't know exactly. I would say 5 or 6 kilometres far.

13 Q. After you had this conversation with this gentleman, did you go

14 with him toward Bardhaniq?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Please tell us about that.

17 A. There was another young man with me, and we went to pick up the

18 body of my sister by a horse cart.

19 Q. When you went to -- when you went with this man towards

20 Bardhaniq, did you eventually see the body of your sister?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where was she?

23 A. There was a kind of road that divides Zabel and Bardhaniq, and it

24 was on the foot of the mountain.

25 Q. How far off this road was your sister's body?

Page 1470

1 A. Approximately 4 or 5 metres.

2 Q. Did you eventually show this location to investigators from the


4 A. Yes.

5 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, with the Court's permission, I'd like

6 to show this witness 65 ter Exhibit 1189, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. Of course, I haven't seen that

8 exhibit. If there are no persons visible on it, I think it could be --

9 there's no need to have it under seal.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Actually, this may need to be under seal.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, "may." Would you please tell us now so

12 that we know whether we can show it to the public, yes or no.

13 MR. KEARNEY: I believe it does need to be under seal.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.

15 Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P25,

17 under seal, marked for identification.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


20 Q. Witness 4, is this a photograph of the location of your sister's

21 body when you --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is it already on the witness's screen? Because it's

23 not yet on the English screen.

24 Witness, do you have any picture on your screen at this moment or

25 not yet? No. Then we'll have to wait until --

Page 1471

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Loading pictures just takes some time.

3 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I'm informed this is on the English

4 channel.

5 JUDGE ORIE: But we're on the B/C/S channel.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, on the English channel.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has the witness -- do you see the picture on

8 the screen?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Do you now see the picture on your screen, Witness?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

13 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

14 Q. Is that the location where you found your sister's body on the

15 day in question?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you went to that location from this man -- with this man

18 from Bardhaniq, when you arrived was there anyone else there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who, please?

21 A. There were some persons whom I didn't know.

22 Q. What was their ethnicity?

23 A. I'm not certain what they were, but I think they were Albanians.

24 Q. And were any of them wearing any distinctive clothing that you

25 saw?

Page 1472

1 A. I saw only one person that was wearing camouflage trousers.

2 Q. Were these individuals men or women?

3 A. Men.

4 Q. How many of them were there?

5 A. I cannot ascertain the exact number but I think there were six or

6 seven.

7 Q. How close were they to the body of your sister when you first

8 arrived?

9 A. Referring to these persons that we talked about.

10 Q. Yes?

11 A. To my recollection, 10 to 15 metres.

12 Q. In the photograph P25 that you have before you there is pictured

13 what appears to be foliage, trees, bushes. I want to ask you, if the

14 body of your sister was -- was covered with such material or was it

15 visible --

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection; leading.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied, but at the same time you

18 are making a distinction, Mr. Kearney, between being covered or visible

19 which is not a clear distinction. So, therefore, I suggest that you

20 reformulate the question.

21 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour. It's a point well taken.

22 Q. Witness, was the body of your sister visible from the road?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. Because it was 4 or 5 metres away into the forest and we couldn't

Page 1473

1 see it from the street.

2 Q. Please tell us the condition of your sister's body when you first

3 saw it?

4 A. When I first saw her she was covered with a blanket.

5 Q. Do you know if she was clothed or unclothed under the blanket?

6 A. From the waist up she was not.

7 Q. When you first saw the body --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, could you please seek clarification,

9 because the question was whether she was clothed or unclothed and then

10 the witness said, "From the waist up she was not," which leaves it open

11 whether she was not unclothed or whether she was not clothed.

12 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness 4, can you explain your last answer. Did she have any

14 clothes on her body in the upper portion of her body?

15 A. When I saw her she had knife cuts on her upper part and in the

16 throat, on the throat.

17 Q. In one moment we'll get to the injuries you saw on her, but for

18 the time being I want to ask you specifically about her clothing. You

19 mentioned earlier that under the blanket she was not clothed. Please

20 explain that for us?

21 A. On the lower part she was dressed.

22 Q. And did she have any clothes on the upper half of her body?

23 A. When I saw her, on the shoulder and on the throat I don't think

24 she had clothes on.

25 Q. Did you see any of her clothing items near the body?

Page 1474

1 A. She had the -- her leather jacket was thrown a little away from

2 her body.

3 Q. How far from her body was the jacket when you saw it?

4 A. Maybe 1 or 2 metres. Not far from the body.

5 Q. What was the condition of the jacket itself when you saw it,

6 please?

7 A. It was bullet-ridden and full of knife cuts.

8 Q. Did you notice anything else about the jacket that was

9 significant to you at that time?

10 A. It was open, unbuttoned, and I saw the holes of the bullets.

11 Q. Did you notice any signs of trauma to the body of your sister

12 itself?

13 A. I saw knife cuts on the arm, on the throat, and -- and I saw a

14 bullet-hole on the earlobe.

15 Q. Besides the knife cuts you just told us about on the arm, did you

16 see anyone -- anything -- strike that?

17 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'll withdraw that question.

18 Q. At some point, Witness 4, did you count the number of

19 perforations in the jacket that you've told us about?

20 A. No. No, I didn't have time to count them because I felt very

21 sad.

22 Q. Was there any indication that you saw, when you first discovered

23 the body of your sister, that told you how long she had been in that

24 location?

25 A. I couldn't know that, but she was missing for four days from that

Page 1475

1 night that I described.

2 Q. Do you know if there were shoes on your sister's body at that

3 time?

4 A. No. When we found her body, no, she didn't.

5 Q. She did not have shoes on?

6 A. She didn't have any shoes on.

7 Q. Did you see any shoes in the vicinity -- vicinity of the body

8 when you found her?

9 A. No. No, I didn't.

10 Q. What did you do, if anything, please, with your sister's body

11 after you discovered it?

12 A. We carried her and brought her home.

13 Q. And how was that accomplished?

14 A. We carried her through the cart.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon? Did you take the jacket with you or did

16 you do anything with the jacket?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When we buried her, we left

18 the jacket at home.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No, before, when you carried her, her body, on

20 the cart?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We brought the jacket with us along

22 with the body and then we left it at home.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


25 Q. During the transportation of your sister, did you notice any

Page 1476

1 blood on her body or her clothing?

2 A. Yes. On the throat and where she had the injuries, we saw blood.

3 Q. When you transported the body from that location back home, or

4 when you began to transport it, were the men you had described earlier

5 still there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did any of them help you in the process of transporting the body?

8 A. This person who came and told us and Can Mala. The person -

9 correction - was called Can Mala.

10 Q. Besides him, did any of the other men you described, including

11 the one wearing the partial camouflage, help you with the body?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What did you do with the body, Witness 4, after you brought it

14 back home?

15 A. We brought the body home and kept it at home for that night, and

16 on the next day we went and informed the uncles to come and bury her.

17 Q. And did you, in fact, bury her at some point?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long after you retrieved the body of your sister did you bury

20 her?

21 A. We buried her after five days.

22 Q. Is that five days from when she was taken from your home or five

23 days after you discovered her in the forest?

24 A. It was the fifth day after we found her.

25 Q. During that -- those five days before the burial, what did you do

Page 1477

1 to the body, if anything?

2 A. I don't remember to have done anything.

3 Q. Where was it that your sister was buried?

4 A. She was buried near our house.

5 Q. At some point during the investigation, did you show an ICTY

6 investigator where you had -- where you had buried your sister?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness another

9 exhibit. This is 65 ter 1026, 1026, and again this should be under seal.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It may be shown to the witness.

11 Madam Registrar, would that be P26?

12 THE REGISTRAR: You're correct, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Marked for

14 identification for the time being.


16 Q. Witness 4, is there an image now on your screen that you can see?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that the location on your land where you buried your sister?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. At some point during the investigation of this case, did you give

21 ICTY investigators permission to exhume your sister's body?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. To your knowledge, was that done?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. Do you know when that exhumation took place?

Page 1478

1 A. I think two years ago.

2 Q. From the time your sister was buried in that location to the time

3 her body was exhumed, was the grave disturbed in any way that you know

4 of?

5 A. Which grave do you mean?

6 Q. The grave of sister M.

7 A. I don't know. I didn't see anything. But I know that the grave

8 was not surrounded by any fence or anything, and it was easy for any

9 animal to have access to it.

10 Q. But did you see anything happen to the grave between when the

11 burial took place and when the exhumation took place?

12 A. I wasn't there when the exhumation took place.

13 Q. After the exhumation took place, were you ever shown personal

14 artefacts of your sister?

15 A. No. Then we -- they asked us what clothes she had on, and then

16 we gave them the clothes we found on her.

17 Q. Did you -- when you removed your sister's body from the forest,

18 did you notice any personal items on it that you recognised?

19 A. It was a blanket but a blanket that didn't belong to our house.

20 Someone else must have thrown it on her.

21 Q. Do you know who that was?

22 A. No, I don't know that.

23 Q. Witness 4, I now want to bring you back for a moment to 1998, if

24 I may, to the time when your sister M was taken from your home, okay?

25 A. Okay.

Page 1479

1 Q. I'd like to ask you if your -- what happened -- or where did you

2 live after your sister M was taken from the home?

3 A. We lived in two rooms. The sisters lived in the other part of

4 the house.

5 Q. After your sister M was taken from your home, did you continue to

6 stay there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. For how long?

9 A. We continued to live for five days. After we buried the sister,

10 we didn't live there anymore.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. Because we were scared to continue living there.

13 Q. Where did you go?

14 A. We went to stay with the uncle.

15 Q. What was it that you were afraid of, Witness 4?

16 A. We were afraid that what had happened to our sisters might also

17 happen to us.

18 Q. During the investigation of this case were you at some point

19 shown a photo-array by investigators from the ICTY?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know when that was?

22 A. For the first time when we went to Pristina.

23 Q. Witness 4, you were interviewed in 2004, 2005, and 2006. On

24 which one of those occasions was it that you viewed this photo-array?

25 A. I'm not certain but I think it was in 2004.

Page 1480

1 Q. Please tell us how that process worked, if you could?

2 A. When we were answering the questions asked of us, a person showed

3 us an album with photographs.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You said, "When we were answering the questions

5 asked of us ..." You were together with somebody when answering these

6 questions?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with my brother.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, can you continue on that maybe.


10 Q. When you were shown these photographs by the investigator, were

11 you with your brother at that time or were you by yourself?

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection. I think we need to be extremely

13 careful at this point in terms of the manner in which any questions

14 proceed. I really think this is a point in time when the witness should

15 have no potential leading or suggestive question asked of him concerning

16 this particular event in any manner or respect whatsoever.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you're concerned about

18 this, Mr. Guy-Smith. At the same time, on the basis of the earlier

19 answers of the witness, I did not find anything specific in this question

20 which would be inappropriate.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate the Chamber's present ruling. I'm

22 asking for the utmost caution at this point in time.


24 Mr. Kearney, I think you will have understood that Mr. Guy-Smith

25 is insisting more than usual on the questions being put to the witness in

Page 1481

1 the appropriate way. Please proceed.

2 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I note my colleague's concern and I

3 will ask the question again of the witness.



6 Q. When you were shown these photographs, were you with your brother

7 or were you alone?

8 A. I was with my brother.

9 Q. Where did this happen? Where in Pristina were you when you --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask first for another -- you said you were

11 with your brother. Was the photo-array shown to you alone or was it

12 shown to you and your brother?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That day, when we went together, my

14 brother was sitting a bit away from me and they showed this photo-array

15 only to me, asking me whether I recognised anyone there.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


18 Q. When you were shown this photo-array and asked if you recognised

19 anyone inside of it, did you? Did you recognise anyone in the

20 photo-array?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who did you recognise inside the photo-array?

23 A. I recognised in that photo-array the Togeri.

24 Q. After you recognised the photo of Togeri, did you do anything to

25 the photo-array to note that recognition?

Page 1482

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. What did you do?

3 A. I drew a circle around the photo.

4 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, at this time I would like to show the

5 witness, under seal, please, the 65 ter Exhibit 711.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.


8 Q. Witness 4, can you see that image on your screen?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was this the photo-array that was shown to you by the

11 investigator that you've been discussing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise any marks in your writing on that exhibit?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please point those out to us. What do you recognise on that

16 exhibit that is in your writing?

17 A. It's number 6.

18 Q. Below the number 6 in this exhibit appears to be some writing.

19 Do you recognise that writing?

20 A. Yes. Yes, it's my handwriting.

21 Q. Without telling us what is written there, without telling us the

22 words that are written there, what did you write in that location?

23 A. I don't understand your question. What do you want of me, to

24 tell you what it is written there or what?

25 Q. Yes. Tell us what is written there but don't say the words out

Page 1483

1 loud. Just tell us generally what you put in that location under the

2 number 6.

3 A. That's my name and last name.

4 Q. Also around the number 6 in this exhibit, there's a -- appears to

5 be a hand-drawn mark; is that correct, Witness 4?

6 A. You are talking of number 6?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes, it's correct.

9 Q. And do you recognise that hand-drawn mark around the number 6?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you make that mark?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the right-hand upper portion of this exhibit is more

14 handwriting which appears to be a date. Do you recognise that?

15 A. Are you talking about the date?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. I don't know. It's not me who has written that.

18 Q. Do you recognise the date that is written there?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm certainly going to object to that.

20 MR. KEARNEY: I can --

21 JUDGE ORIE: What's your question?

22 MR. KEARNEY: I can ask that question in a different way, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kearney. Yes, then please do so.


Page 1484

1 Q. Witness 4, do you remember the date that you were shown this

2 photo-array?

3 A. I don't remember the date, but I know that we went there to look

4 at these photographs.

5 Q. All right. Also during the course of the investigation, did you

6 provide a sample of your DNA to the investigators?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sometime after supplying a sample of your DNA to the

9 investigators, did you receive back remains of any of your family

10 members?

11 A. You're referring to the bodies?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. After they took the blood samples, which was after they asked if

14 we would allow them to exhume the bodies, then we said yes.

15 Q. And did you ever receive back after that time period, after the

16 exhumation, after the DNA samples, did you ever receive back for burial

17 any members of your family that had been taken?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which family members did you receive back for burial?

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.


22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think this is a matter for -- if the witness

23 could take off his headphones for a moment.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take off your headphones for a

25 second, Witness 4.

Page 1485

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Kearney is asking this gentleman a question

2 that is outside the purview of his knowledge. Representations may be

3 made to him -- may have been made to him concerning what remains were

4 received back by the family, but he right now is asking him a question

5 which is so far outside his knowledge, which deals with matters of

6 technical and scientific expertise, I think it's totally inappropriate.

7 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I would --

8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to understand, Mr. Guy-Smith.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Surely. I'll see if I can make my point --

10 JUDGE ORIE: You say it's outside of his knowledge. The question

11 was whether they received back any members of the family. Why would that

12 be out of -- it's not whether the family received back, that's at least

13 how I understood it. How couldn't he know whether he received back any

14 bodies of members of his family?

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, as a matter of fact, in this case one of

16 the issues that will become quite clear as time goes on is certain bodies

17 that were identified were identified incorrectly.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, but let's --

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Therefore, first --

20 JUDGE ORIE: But, of course, what we're asking the witness is

21 what he knows and he may make a mistake; that's another matter. But it's

22 not a question which, by itself, would be outside the knowledge of the

23 witness.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: If the question was --

25 JUDGE ORIE: If he makes a mistake, then of course that's --

Page 1486

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: If the question was asked -- I apologise for

2 speaking too quickly.

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You are overlapping.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: If the question was asked, Did you receive bodies

5 that you were told were or you understood to be from information you

6 received were, that would be a different matter.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But then you're anticipating on your knowledge of

8 the matter.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --

10 JUDGE ORIE: We could ask the witness what was the source of his

11 knowledge.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Rather than beat a dead horse, we can proceed.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The witness can put his earphones on again.

14 And you may put the questions to the witness, and you are aware,

15 Mr. Kearney, that Mr. Guy-Smith has some concerns about the source of

16 knowledge and of the quality of these sources. Please proceed.


18 Q. Witness 4, after the exhumation, after your provision of a DNA

19 sample to the ICTY, were you given, by ICTY investigators, bodies?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And whose bodies were they that were -- whose bodies -- strike

22 that?

23 Did the ICTY identify whose bodies were being given back to you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was it they told you was being given back to you?

Page 1487

1 A. It was the body of my sister that was taken for examination --

2 forensic examination (redacted)

3 Q. Lastly, this gentleman that you've identified in the photograph

4 as number 6, is he the person that you've identified throughout the

5 course of your testimony in this case as Toger, or Togeri?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honours. No further questions.


9 MR. KEARNEY: We would tender in --

10 JUDGE ORIE: But first we need to assign a number, but Madam

11 Registrar is ...

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P27,

13 marked for identification and under seal.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the photo-array.

15 Yes. You'd --

16 MR. KEARNEY: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you wanted to tender into evidence all the

18 exhibits you've shown?

19 MR. KEARNEY: I do.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Any -- since there are no objections, I think it's

21 P25, 26, and 27, that are admitted into evidence.

22 I am looking at the clock.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Might I suggest we break now and then --

24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll break now and then start cross-examination

25 after the break. Will you be the first one to cross-examine the witness,

Page 1488

1 Mr. Guy-Smith?

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that I will. I've now just been --

3 I've just been given the nod that I shall be.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps before we excuse the witness for the

5 break, I would have one or two questions for the witness.

6 Witness 4, you said your brother was present when the photo-array

7 was shown to you. Could you tell us, was it at the beginning, in the

8 middle, at the end? When was the photo-array shown to you during the

9 course of the interview you gave?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was in the beginning.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And you said your brother was present. Were

12 questions put to you and to your brother at the same time, or was he just

13 present when you were interviewed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked the questions on the

15 same day. They took in my brother; I don't know what he told them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to get things as clear as possible. When

17 your brother was present when the photo-array was shown to you, did he

18 remain in that same room with you during the whole of the interview?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't.

20 JUDGE ORIE: For how long did he stay?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're referring to my brother?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I did.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we gave our statements, we

24 gave them separately; we didn't give the statements together.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you say that he was present when the

Page 1489

1 photo-array was shown to you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to that day when we

3 went there together, because on another day I went alone to give the

4 statement.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us that your brother was at some

6 distance when the photo-array was shown to you. Could you tell us

7 exactly how far away he was?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps 4 or 5 metres, in the other

9 room.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You say "in the other room." Do I have to

11 understand that he was not in the same room?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So did I then correctly understand you when you said

14 He was with me, that you were referring to your brother as being in the

15 same building but not in the same room, or how do I have to understand

16 your testimony in this respect?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said is that he was in the

18 same building with me but not in the same room when I was giving the

19 statement.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just find the exact location. One

21 second, please.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe it's page 21, line 14, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. A question was put to you by Mr. Kearney

24 who asked you: "When you were shown these photographs, were you with

25 your brother or were you alone?" You then answered: "I was with my

Page 1490

1 brother."

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you, in order to avoid any

4 misunderstanding, explain exactly what you meant by that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant is that the day when

6 they showed the photographs to me, we went together to that place with my

7 brother, but my brother was not present in the room where I was being

8 interviewed.


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't interview us at the

11 same time.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, before I put the next -- no, I'll first

13 put the next question to you, but I would like you to wait before giving

14 an answer.

15 Did you speak with your brother about the interview and what you

16 stated at this interview? And that's my question and I add immediately

17 to that: Where I yesterday instructed you not to speak with anyone about

18 your testimony and, therefore, you are not allowed to do that these days

19 when you're in The Hague, that there is not a similar prohibition, at

20 least not at the time in October 2004, there is not a similar prohibition

21 to speak with other persons about what you stated during these

22 interviews.

23 So I now repeat my question: Did you speak with your brother

24 about the interviews?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told him that I was there to give

Page 1491

1 a statement, but I didn't discuss the contents of my statement. I spoke

2 of things that I saw in my statement, and he spoke of things that he saw

3 in his statement.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you tell him about the photo-array

5 that was shown to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I have told him that I

7 recognised the person.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did your brother tell you whether a

9 photo-array was shown to him?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What did he say? Could you tell us?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that he could not recognise

13 anyone.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

15 We -- first of all, I'd like to ask the usher to escort the

16 witness out of the courtroom.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, could I ask, there has been made

19 a submission for further protective measures in relation to Witness 49?

20 Could the Chamber hear from the Defence when it intends, if at all, to

21 respond to that submission?

22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I --

23 JUDGE ORIE: If we have to go into private session, do so.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Not at all. I think the application is for closed

25 testimony altogether. Would Your Honours permit us to respond to that

Page 1492

1 tomorrow morning? And may we do so orally, or would Your Honours request

2 a response in writing?

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's --

5 MR. EMMERSON: I said tomorrow morning. Obviously, if I'm

6 responding orally, it would be at the beginning of the session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: At the beginning. Yes, that's fine.

8 At the same time, Mr. Kearney or Mr. Di Fazio, just for

9 argument's sake, if there would be any problem with closed session, do

10 you expect that you will elicit from the witness any testimony that we

11 should hear in private session because that could identify the witness?

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would you please consider, because we

15 would then further hear from the Defence tomorrow to what extent private

16 session would serve the purposes and to what extent closed session is

17 really necessary, and also in view -- against the background of the

18 reasons given.

19 We will adjourn until five minutes past 4.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.39 p.m.

21 [The witness takes the stand]

22 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, are you ready to cross-examine

24 Witness 4?

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am.

Page 1493

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Witness 4, you'll now be cross-examined by

2 Mr. Guy-Smith, who is counsel for the Defence, for at least one of the

3 Defence, Mr. Balaj.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I take it that we are presently in --

6 JUDGE ORIE: We are not, Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Are we in open session?

8 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into private session for one brief

10 moment?

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1494

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.


Page 1495

1 Q. You've told us that a gentleman by the name of Slobodan Prascevic

2 came to your home on occasion; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, could you tell us how you communicated with Slobodan

5 Prascevic? And by that I mean, did you call him on a telephone, on a

6 radio? How did he know when to come to your home?

7 A. What are you referring to? Is it about the day when there was

8 firing or about any other day.

9 Q. For the moment I'm speaking about, generally speaking, how your

10 family was able to get hold of this particular individual?

11 A. As I said, at that time we didn't have a phone, but he also

12 didn't come that often to visit us.

13 Q. Did you have a radio by which you could communicate with this

14 person?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When you received information that he was dead, you've told us

17 that you received that information from the radio; true?

18 A. Yes, but I meant a radio, not a radio for communication.

19 Q. And was that a radio that you had at your home?

20 A. At that day when we heard about this we were not at home.

21 Q. Where were you?

22 A. I want to say where I was but I don't want the others to know.

23 Q. Very well?

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: In that case, could we go into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 1496

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


20 Q. And when you went to the village that we've just mentioned,

21 before you went to that village you would obtain permission to go there;

22 correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. You would obtain that permission, as you've called it, the

25 headquarters of the KLA which you've identified as a grocery shop which

Page 1497

1 belonged, I believe, to Zef Avdyli. Isn't that what you did?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And on the occasions that you went to get authorisation to travel

4 away from your home, you went by yourself, did you not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. To your knowledge, did your brother ever go to get authorisation

7 to travel at Zef Avdyli's shop?

8 A. I don't remember. I don't know. I really have nothing to say

9 about this.

10 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Apart from yourself for purposes of

11 travelling, do you recall during the summer months your brother

12 travelling away from the family home, in 1998?

13 A. I remember once he did leave the house.

14 Q. And when you say that he left the house, to your knowledge, did

15 he leave the house and go to another village which required him to

16 receive authorisation to travel on that one occasion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he travel by himself or did he travel with somebody else in

19 the family?

20 A. I know that he travelled by himself. As far as the authorisation

21 is concerned, I don't remember.

22 Q. You've told us that on a number of different occasions your home

23 was visited by individuals wearing black clothes; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The very first time that happened and men came to your home

Page 1498

1 wearing black clothes, these were men that you knew, were they not?

2 A. Yes. For the first time I didn't know them, but during the

3 second or the third time I recognised them.

4 Q. Well, the very first time that men came to visit your home

5 wearing black clothes, those men were, among others, Mr. Rexhepi,

6 Mr. Islami, and Mr. Zefi, were they not? People who you've known for

7 years?

8 A. Yes. But I didn't say that Islami and the others were wearing

9 black clothes.

10 Q. The very first time men came to your home, you said that three or

11 four men came inside and they were wearing black masks. And now with

12 regard to the issue of clothes, you said some were wearing civilian

13 clothes, if I'm not mistaken, some were wearing military clothes. I've

14 identified for the moment three men; that would be Mr. Rexhepi,

15 Mr. Islami and Mr. Zefi. With regard to Mr. Rexhepi, was he wearing

16 black clothes?

17 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, this question appears to be severely

18 compound. There's several sentences worth of information in it. I would

19 ask my esteemed colleague that if he wants to refer to a portion of this

20 witness's past testimony, that he actually read that testimony back to

21 the witness for the sake of clarity.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, compound questions usually lead to

23 confusion rather than anything else.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no desire to confuse anyone.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed with this in your mind.

Page 1499


2 Q. During the first visit to your home --

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you could please quote the line on the

4 transcript, then we'll all give -- give such words that we are able to

5 find it, so that we can better follow your questions.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm coming to that, Your Honour.



9 Q. Tell us about this group of masked men.

10 A. First, they came with masks and painted in their faces, and I

11 didn't recognise them.

12 Q. And when you say that you did not recognise them, are you telling

13 us that three to four men that came to your home on that day, you did not

14 recognise any of those men as being the gentlemen that I've just

15 mentioned to you: Mr. Rexhepi, Mr. Islami, or Mr. Zefi.

16 A. They came another day.

17 Q. I appreciate that you say they came another day. But the first

18 time, you didn't recognize any of those three men as being the ones who

19 came to your home; correct?

20 A. I didn't recognise them because that was the first time they

21 came.

22 Q. The next time that men came to your home, wearing black, you were

23 asleep and it was in the night-time; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you woke up, you woke up because you heard a noise inside

Page 1500

1 your home; correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. You did not see the car in which these men arrived, did you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And during the second time that men in black came to your home,

6 if I understood your testimony correctly, you were behind a door which

7 was being guarded; true?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Your home had no electricity; correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. While you were behind the door that was being guarded, you've

12 told us that your mother was having conversation with one or more of the

13 men dressed in black; right?

14 A. Yes, at that part of the house.

15 Q. And when you say "that part of the house," you mean in a part of

16 the house away from where you were behind the door that was being

17 guarded; right?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you are using the word "behind" now,

19 I think, three or four times. Could you just guide us to where I find in

20 the testimony of the witness that he said that he was behind that door?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm asking the witness of whether that's correct,

23 whether he's behind a door? If he says he's behind a door --

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, you said whether -- let me just check what you

25 exactly said.

Page 1501

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: On page 40, line 1, my question is: "And during

2 the second time that the men in black came to your home, if I understood

3 your testimony correctly, you were behind a door ..."


5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let me do this --

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's also a very compound question, but --

7 so let's take it one by one instead of -- please proceed.


9 Q. After you were -- after you were woken up the second time that

10 the men in black came to your home, you stayed in your bedroom behind a

11 door that was being guarded; correct?

12 A. Not behind the door. I didn't say behind the door; I said in the

13 bedroom, when they came and woke us up. I said that that person stood

14 guard there.

15 Q. How far away was the conversation that your mother was having

16 with the men in black while you were in the bedroom being guarded?

17 A. Probably 4 or 5 metres away.

18 Q. You've told us that during that conversation you heard a name

19 being repeatedly said; correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Apart from the name that you've told us you heard us repeatedly

22 being mentioned, what else did you hear in that conversation?

23 A. I heard the name mentioned by someone else and then he was

24 talking with my mother in that other part of the house, 4 or 5 metres

25 away. When we awoke in the morning, mum told us what happened.

Page 1502

1 Q. The information that you received and how you learned what

2 happened that night was information you received from your mother the

3 next day?

4 MR. KEARNEY: Objection; vague. Information is a very general

5 term. I would ask that the witness be asked specifics.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the witness to take his earphones off for

7 a second?

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Before we do that, Your Honour, may I inquire

9 whether or not the witness speaks English?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you put them on? Do you understand any

11 English?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Very, very little, I would

13 say.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please take off your earphones?

15 Mr. Guy-Smith, many of your questions are creating quite some

16 confusion. For example, if you say -- there are a lot of implicit

17 suggestions in your questions which might easily not be picked up,

18 understood, by a witness, and then of course, the answers he gives are

19 not easy to evaluate. Let me just give you a few examples.

20 For example, one of your earlier questions, you suggested that

21 the person you talked about would come to the house only when called,

22 where there's nothing in the evidence until that moment that would

23 suggest it, as far as I understand.

24 One of your next questions, luckily, the witness picked it up

25 that where you were talking about radio, it was very ambiguous, your

Page 1503

1 question.

2 And now in one of your last questions, you more or less

3 suggested - and let me try to find your exact words before I continue -

4 you said: "Apart from the name that you've told us you heard as

5 repeatedly being mentioned, what else did you hear in that conversation?"

6 Which strongly suggests that the mentioning of the name was part of the

7 conversation, whereas the witness clearly testified earlier that he heard

8 the other men using the name and that he was informed by his mother the

9 next morning. So by these implicit suggestions in your question, you

10 create confusion which does not assist the Chamber.

11 Please keep this in mind. We'll ask the witness to put his

12 earphones on again and we'll continue.

13 Witness.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.


16 Q. The second visit you were not able to personally identify Toger

17 as being there that evening, were you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Three or four days after the second visit in the evening, your

20 sister S came back home; true?

21 A. True.

22 Q. At the time that she came home, she came home in a white car;

23 correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Where were you when you first saw your sister come home?

Page 1504

1 A. I was in the vicinity of the house, or to say -- to be more

2 exact, in the courtyard of the house.

3 Q. You've told us there was another person with your sister who was

4 in the car; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That person was wearing black; true?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Your sister came in the home and stayed for, I think,

9 approximately 30 to 40 minutes; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The person who came with her in the car, dressed in black, stayed

12 in the car during the period of time your sister was visiting for 30 to

13 40 minutes; right?

14 A. Right.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To be exact, can you confirm having seen him all

16 these 30 to 40 minutes in the car?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He came -- first, he came out of

18 the car together with my sister. He didn't stay long outside. And then

19 I saw him get into the car. Then I went home -- I entered the house with

20 my sister.

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


23 Q. When you entered the home with your sister, following up on the

24 Judge's question, did you keep an eye out on the car for the 30 to 40

25 minutes that you were visiting with your sister?

Page 1505

1 A. When I was inside the house, I didn't go out to see what was

2 happening with the car.

3 Q. While you were inside the house, did you look outside at the car?

4 A. No, I didn't. We were sitting in another room from which you

5 couldn't see the car.

6 Q. On the second visit with sister S, you said that she came in a

7 car; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When she came in the car the second time, did she come alone or

10 did she come at that time with a man dressed in black?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I take it when you say "yes," you mean that she came that

13 time with a man dressed in black; correct?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Was anybody else in the car except for your sister and this man

16 dressed in black?

17 A. When she was brought to the house, no.

18 Q. And when you saw her being brought to the house on her second

19 visit in the morning with the man who was dressed in black, after she

20 came to the area of your home, she got out of the car; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The car left; right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. And then you spent some hours with your sister; true?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 1506

1 Q. There came a time in the afternoon when your sister told you that

2 it was time to leave; right?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. When she told you it was time to leave, you decided to walk with

5 her back --

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Now, the only two people who left the house at that point in time

8 in the afternoon were yourself and your sister; correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. About how long a period of time were you walking before you got

11 to the - I think it's called - the ford, or Ratis ford?

12 A. From what I remember, it was for 25 minutes.

13 Q. And what direction were you walking in?

14 A. In the direction of Irzniq.

15 Q. After you had been walking for about 25 minutes, you came to an

16 area where there was a river or a stream; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And at that point in time, your sister told you - it was about

19 halfway - your sister told you that you didn't need to come with her any

20 further; right?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. She went forward towards --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- Irzniq?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1507

1 Q. And you returned home?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Would it be fair to say that it took you about as long to get

4 back home from the ford as it took you to go from the house to the ford?

5 And by that, I mean it took you about 25 minutes, walking, to get home?

6 A. I'm not sure whether it was the same amount of time. Maybe it

7 was shorter. But it was something like that.

8 Q. When you got home, you were home for a short period of time when

9 a car came to the house again; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. There were a number of men in black in that car; true?

12 A. No. Only the person who came during -- every time, while the

13 others, I didn't recognise them.

14 Q. Well, let me ask you this, because your answer is: "No. Only

15 the person who came during -- every time, while the others, I didn't

16 recognise them." When you returned home and the car came, was there one

17 person in the car or more than one person?

18 A. There were two persons.

19 Q. Very well. Both of those people were wearing black; correct?

20 A. I didn't see what the other person was wearing, and I spoke to

21 them from a distance of 7 or 8 metres. I do not remember what the other

22 person was wearing.

23 Q. And after you spoke to them from a distance of 7 or 8 metres,

24 they left; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1508

1 Q. The next time that you had any contact with any individuals

2 wearing black was two or three weeks after you had left your sister at

3 the ford; correct?

4 A. Yes, but what are you referring to? What location?

5 Q. At your home, in the evening.

6 A. When they came, it was two or three weeks later. At this time,

7 some persons came to our house.

8 Q. And you've told us that that was around the harvesting of the

9 corn when that occurred; true?

10 A. No. It was during autumn because you do this in the field during

11 the autumn, twice.

12 Q. Well, you've corrected me on something that I don't know. So it

13 was sometime in the autumn after the corn had been harvested one time, I

14 guess, then?

15 A. First you do the harvest of the beans in autumn and then the last

16 is the corn.

17 Q. When that visit occurred, the visit that occurred in the autumn,

18 you've told us that a number of men in black came and, I believe, had a

19 conversation with your mother; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, the conversation that you've told us about, which was, I

22 believe - and I'm referring the Court and counsel to page 87, begins on

23 the bottom of page 86 - "they talked to the mother" --

24 JUDGE ORIE: We're using, then, numbers which continue, so not

25 just the numbering of the day, and if you would give us some text,

Page 1509

1 then -- a word which doesn't appear on every line, then we'll easily find

2 it.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: "They talked to the mother ..." I believe it's

4 1445, at line 4, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: 1445.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I hope that was of some help. "They talked to

7 the mother, and did you hear that conversation?"

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


10 Q. And that is a conversation that you overheard; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that is a conversation that concerned the issue of whether or

13 not people could leave the home with or without authorisation; right?

14 A. When they came for the second time after my sister went missing,

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 told us, I believe, that the person who had that conversation with your

18 mother was somebody you have identified as Toger; correct?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Now, that particular piece of information, that the person who

21 had the conversation with your mother was Toger, that's information that

22 you spoke to Mr. Kearney about before you came to testify here, did you

23 not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you told Mr. Kearney, did you not, that you heard a KLA

Page 1510

1 soldier tell your mother that everyone could get travel documents except

2 her, and that if she tried to leave she'd be killed; right? That's what

3 you told Mr. Kearney?

4 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours and counsel, my colleague -- my dear

5 colleague, I would simply ask that if there is a reference made to a

6 prior statement or proofing notes, that my colleague direct the Court and

7 counsel to the specific area where it is so we can all follow along.


9 Mr. Guy-Smith.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's 2D21-317, page 2 of the proofing notes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


13 Q. Now, you've just told us that you told Mr. Kearney that the

14 person who had this conversation with your mother was Toger; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Well, isn't it true that what you told Mr. Kearney was that the

17 person who had this conversation with your mother was a person whose name

18 was Aslan?

19 MR. KEARNEY: Trial Chamber, I'm sorry to interrupt again.

20 Counsel, are you referring to page 2 of the proofing notes?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also tried to find that but -- could you

22 give us how that paragraph starts so that we could more easily find it,

23 Mr. Guy-Smith?

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: "Visits to KLA HQ in Ratis."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, that's -- for me it's the first page of the

Page 1511

1 proofing notes, but--

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: "The witness confirms" --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can read it now.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And then it would be the second -- it would be

5 the third full sentence, "The witness adds ..."

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll read it. Yes, I've got it. Please

7 proceed.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

9 I'd like to get an answer to my last question, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please repeat the question, but let me just

11 read another matter for one second.

12 Yes. Again, could the witness take his earphones off for another

13 second?

14 Mr. Guy-Smith, you were talking about a conversation the mother

15 had with a person identified by the witness. You said: "I believe that

16 the person who had that conversation with your mother was somebody you

17 had identified as Toger; correct?" Yes. Now, that particular piece of

18 information you said, that the person who had a conversation with your

19 mother was Toger, that's information that you spoke to Mr. Kearney about

20 before, and then you said: "And you told Mr. Kearney, did you not, that

21 you heard a KLA soldier tell your mother and everyone, and who it was?"

22 Do I understand you well that you -- yes, you said: "Now, you've

23 just told us that you told to Mr. Kearney that the person who had this

24 conversation with your mother was Toger; right?"

25 Let me just see. I'm just trying to ...

Page 1512

1 Where did the witness say exactly that he told that it was Toger

2 who gave that information? Because you're putting that to the witness.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I asked him the question as to whether he did

4 that during his proofing. That's where the question -- Did you tell

5 Mr. Kearney that Toger was the person who threatened -- I'm rephrasing

6 the question at this point.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then just try to find out exactly where you

8 put this to the witness, where exactly -- "You told Mr. Kearney that you

9 heard a KLA told to your mother that everyone ..." Then the next

10 question was guided: "Now, you've just told us that you told Mr. Kearney

11 that the person who had this conversation with your mother was Toger."

12 Where did he say that?

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm asking him whether he said that to

14 Mr. Kearney. It's not -- this is a question I asked him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Now you're saying -- "now you've just told that you

16 told Mr. Kearney that ..." Where did he say that? I'm just looking at

17 the transcript, where he said that he told to Mr. Kearney that it was

18 Toger who gave that information?

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe it's there. I'm not going to go up to

20 it. I'll go through this again for the purposes of the Court's

21 clarification; shall I?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so. Yes.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

24 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Kearney before you came to testify in

25 court, you told Mr. Kearney that Toger was the one who threatened your

Page 1513

1 mother; correct?

2 MR. KEARNEY: Again, vague is the time now, Your Honour. Perhaps

3 we can just read the quote from the proofing notes.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, we're not reading the quote from the proofing

5 notes because that's not the purpose of what we're doing here. When you

6 spoke to Mr. Kearney during --

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Guy-Smith, let me just intervene at this

8 moment. You put to the witness earlier that he just told you that it was

9 Toger -- let me just give you the line and the -- page 50, line 5; yes?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have to get up to mine.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Have you got that?

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not yet.

13 JUDGE ORIE: "Now, you've told us ..."

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Hold on, hold on. I'm now with you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "Now, you've just told us that you told

16 Mr. Kearney that the person who had this conversation with your mother

17 was Toger; right?" The answer is yes. And I think that the witness

18 testified that there was a conversation with Toger.

19 Next question: "Well, isn't it true --"

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, if you would take a look

21 at the previous page.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Give me the line?

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be line 8: "The information with

24 (redacted), I believe, that the

25 person who had that conversation with your mother was somebody you

Page 1514

1 identified as Toger; correct?" Answer: "Yes, yes."


3 MR. GUY-SMITH: "Now, that particular piece of information, that

4 the person who had the conversation with your mother was Toger, that's

5 information that you spoke to Mr. Kearney about before you came to

6 testify here, did you not?" Answer: "Yes."

7 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not quarrel with

8 that. However, that is separate from the threats that we're talking

9 about now. When she was taken away is different than when she was

10 threatened not to leave.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I find it all rather confusing, as a matter of

12 fact. We have -- we're talking about threats, we're talking about

13 permits to travel, and we're talking about conversations, and it's not

14 always clearly distinguished with whom exactly what subject was

15 discussed. And in order to put it to the witness, or at least to invite

16 the witness to think about whether he has been inconsistent in this

17 respect, we need greatest precision.

18 You may proceed on this basis, Mr. -- and the Chamber would

19 prefer that you read to the witness what he said on the basis of the

20 transcript, and that you read to the witness what is reflected in the

21 proofing notes.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, that's the entire difficulty with the

24 proofing notes, because we don't know whether the proofing notes are, in

25 fact, complete.

Page 1515

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, we don't know, but if you want to confront the

2 witness with what's in the proofing notes, you should -- you should quote

3 the proofing notes. We can't just speculate on whether there had been

4 anything else.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Your Honour --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Your Honour, if I might refer the Court and

8 counsel to page 49, line 5, which is discussing the self-same

9 conversation: "And that is a conversation concerning the issue of

10 whether or not people could leave the home with or without authorisation;

11 right?" Answer: "When they came for the second time after my sister

12 went missing, (redacted)" So, in fact,

13 we're talking about the same time, the same conversation.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, same time, yes. Same conversation is -- yes,

15 the answer does not --

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- confirm that.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let me ask another question.

19 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Kearney during the time that you were

20 proofed --

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think the witness should put the headphones on.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That would be far better for him to hear the

23 question.

24 Please proceed.


Page 1516

1 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. Kearney during the time that you were

2 involved in your proofing sessions on March 9th and March 12th that

3 Togeri threatened to kill your mother if she left the home?

4 A. When I went to the headquarters to take permission because they

5 refused to give me permission.

6 Q. I'm sorry, Witness, my question is: Did you tell Mr. Kearney,

7 the gentleman who's sitting over there. Did you tell Mr. Kearney this?

8 And "this" means that Togeri threatened to kill your mother if she left

9 the home, and you overheard such a conversation?

10 A. I know that this was said by Rexhepi, by Aslan Rexhepi.

11 Q. So it wasn't said by the person you called Togeri. Togeri never

12 threatened your mother, she would be killed or he would kill her if she

13 left the home, did he?

14 A. I don't know that this -- I don't remember this, about her

15 leaving the house. But I know only that he talked with mother when he

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, let's turn into private session in

19 order to avoid that we have to make many more redactions.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1517











11 Page 1517 redacted. Private session.















Page 1518

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.


19 Q. Before you went to Pristina in 2004 to look at the photo-spread,

20 had you seen any television reporting concerning Idriz Balaj being tried

21 in the Dukagjin courthouse?

22 A. That he was being tried, I didn't see anything. But when I heard

23 something about an accident, I saw it actually on television, the news,

24 saying that they had fired -- they had fired at this house or thrown

25 something at this house.

Page 1519

1 Q. And when you saw something on television, that they had fired at

2 his house or thrown something at his house, you learned that his name was

3 Idriz Balaj and he was also -- had a nickname at that time, did you not?

4 He was identified in the news as being Idriz Balaj, also Togeri?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I'd like you to split up these things

7 clearly, so first ask whether it was Balaj, then the next question is

8 whether a nickname was used as well, because otherwise we get

9 confirmations on three, four, or five subjects and later find out that

10 there might be a need to correct. I didn't want to interrupt you when

11 the question was put to you, but you are invited to follow this guidance.


13 Q. When you saw the television report concerning something being

14 thrown at his house, you heard -- there were two names associated with

15 that. One was the name of Idriz Balaj; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the other name that you heard was the name of Toger?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And when you heard the name of Toger, that name was associated

20 with the name of Idriz Balaj; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That happened in 2002; correct?

23 A. I think so.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What kind of report was that? Can you give us

25 some details?

Page 1520

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was an explosive thrown

2 at his house. When he left it with his wife and his children, the

3 explosive was blown, and this was said in the report.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And who or what was shown in the report?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They showed some unidentified

6 persons who were thought to be the perpetrators.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


9 Q. And they also showed a picture of Idriz Balaj on that news

10 reporting; right?

11 A. I think so.

12 Q. And they showed a picture of his wife also, didn't they?

13 A. Yes, and the small child.

14 Q. Now, apart from that one television reporting, did you have an

15 opportunity to read in the newspaper anything concerning this attempt on

16 Idriz Balaj and his family? And by that I mean this assassination

17 attempt.

18 A. No, I didn't read anything. I didn't have an opportunity to read

19 anything.

20 Q. After you saw the television reporting concerning this particular

21 matter, and by that I mean the murder attempt, did you ever see any

22 television reporting on the Dukagjin trial where Idriz Balaj was being

23 tried with some other people?

24 A. No. No, I didn't.

25 Q. I have one final question for you, which is: Doesn't the word

Page 1521

1 "Toger" mean lieutenant in Albanian?

2 A. Before we didn't know that. We learned it later. We learned

3 that there is a rank in the police which is called, as he was called,

4 during the war.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you're the next in line.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, Your Honour. I do have some questions for

8 this witness, but you also have a matter of some urgency that needs to be

9 raised with Your Honour before the break.


11 MR. EMMERSON: I think it's unlikely that I will conclude my

12 cross-examination and Mr. Kearney conclude any re-examination before the

13 break, so may I raise those issues with Your Honours now, because they do

14 need to be resolved before the break rather than after them -- after it.

15 I'm in Your Honours' hands.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I've got no idea about the urgency

17 of the matter. I hope it's not disclosure again. At the same time,

18 would it be something that the witness, being in court, would disturb any

19 of your -- we could -- of course, we could ask him to leave the

20 courtroom -- how much time do you think you would need --

21 MR. EMMERSON: I would have thought five --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- for questions?

23 MR. EMMERSON: For questions?


25 MR. EMMERSON: Between five and ten minutes in total.

Page 1522

1 JUDGE ORIE: Between five and ten minutes.

2 Mr. Harvey.

3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I have no questions for this witness.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You have no questions. Then, yes, Mr. Kearney.

5 MR. KEARNEY: If I may be heard on this matter, my re-direct, at

6 least to date, is exceedingly short. Just for the sake of the witness, I

7 wonder if we could just finish with him before --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I suggest the following: I suggest that you

9 first put your questions to the witness so that we do the

10 cross-examination; that we'll then ask the usher to escort the witness

11 out of the courtroom; that we'll then hear the procedural matter, and

12 then upon return, when we have resumed, that then Mr. Kearney will

13 re-examine the witness.

14 MR. EMMERSON: I should make it absolutely clear, the procedural

15 matter does not relate to this witness but to the next witness.


17 MR. EMMERSON: And, therefore, if it suits Mr. Kearney, having

18 concluded my few short questions, I have no objection to him - if he is

19 going to be brief - re-examining before the break.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, of course, it depends -- I do not know

21 who is going to take the next witness, and I also do not know whether you

22 have to consult with anyone, Mr. Kearney.

23 MR. KEARNEY: The next witness, Your Honour, is --

24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether -- I have to look on my list

25 whether there's any protective measures in place or not, and, of course,

Page 1523

1 it would not be appropriate to discuss any matter on the next witness in

2 the presence of this witness.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.


5 MR. KEARNEY: I would say simply that the next witness is being

6 handled by Mr. Dutertre.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, if you get in touch with

8 Mr. Dutertre, if you would now cross-examine the witness, continue your

9 cross-examination, and then once we are finished cross-examination,

10 we'll -- contact will be made with Mr. Dutertre and we'll reserve your

11 time until after the break.

12 Witness 4, this is all not very interesting for you.

13 Mr. Emmerson will now further cross-examine you.

14 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

16 Q. Witness, I'm just going to ask you one or two short questions on

17 behalf of Ramush Haradinaj.

18 First of all, you gave evidence yesterday that on the night

19 before the incident in which the police officer was shot in his car, an

20 incident had occurred to a family's home in Ratis and the name that you

21 gave us was Malesha. You told us that you could not recall his surname,

22 but that you had seen damage to the house when you went there.

23 I just want to clarify the identity of that individual in case

24 there should be any misunderstanding about the number of incidents of

25 this nature that had occurred in Ratis. Does the name Nastadin Culafic

Page 1524

1 mean anything to you, also known as Malesha?

2 A. No. I never heard of him.

3 Q. The couple that you referred to at the house in Ratis, you went

4 to see the house; is that right?

5 A. I don't know why I had to go to that village, and I went and had

6 a look at this house.

7 Q. Did you know the couple who lived there?

8 A. I knew only the man and his wife, but I don't remember her name.

9 Q. Again, let me see if I can jog your memory. We've heard evidence

10 in this court already that a couple by the name of Culafic - the husband

11 named Nastadin, also known as Malesha, and the wife named Jela, J-e-l-a -

12 had damage to their house at about the time that you're describing. And

13 I just want to understand whether the Malesha that you're telling us

14 about is the same Malesha that we have already heard about.

15 A. I know him only as Malesha, but I don't know any other name.

16 Q. But that is his first name and not his surname; is that correct?

17 A. We always used to call him Malesha. Everybody knew him for that

18 name.

19 Q. And I think you said in your evidence yesterday that apart from

20 that one incident, you weren't aware of any other incidents of damage to

21 Serb houses in Ratis at about that time; is that correct?

22 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, vague as to the time, the word "at

23 that time." Are we talking about the --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 MR. KEARNEY: -- before the Prascevic murder?

Page 1525

1 MR. EMMERSON: With respect, it's not at all vague. I put the

2 question --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think the time frame is quite clear, and I even

4 remember that there was agreement between the parties on the 2nd of

5 March, isn't it? So 2nd or 3rd of March.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Now, this witness wasn't able to recall the date

7 which is why I didn't put it to him.


9 MR. EMMERSON: But what I did put him, which I hope Mr. Kearney

10 accepts --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, his own testimony.

12 MR. EMMERSON: -- is remotely vague, is that it was the night

13 before the incident he's given evidence about.



16 Q. So can I repeat the question, please. It's right, is it, as you

17 told us yesterday, that apart from that one incident that occurred on the

18 night before the shooting of the police officer, you were not aware of

19 any other incidents of damage to Serb houses in Ratis at around that

20 time?

21 A. No, with the exception of that house. That night I don't know of

22 any other house that was damaged.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I want to turn to some other questions which

24 relate to the night that your sister M was taken. Don't anticipate my

25 question. I want to take it with you slowly and in stages.

Page 1526

1 I want, first of all, to show you a statement that you made, and

2 signed, to the Prosecution on the 25th of July, 2006. Just so that you

3 understand how I'm proceeding, this statement was taken by a French lady.

4 Do you remember being interviewed by a French-speaking interviewer?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at the end of the interview, correct -- you were -- sorry,

7 I'll put the question differently. At the end of the interview, there

8 was an interpreter present who read the French statement to you in

9 Albanian, who gave you the opportunity to correct the statement; that you

10 then confirmed that the statement was accurate, and you put your

11 signature on the French statement?

12 A. Yes, but we had some problems with the interpreters because they

13 could not clearly understand us.

14 Q. I'm just going to read you a short passage from the end of the

15 statement because, obviously, if you had problems with the

16 interpretation, it's important that we get it straight. At the end of

17 the statement is a certificate by the interpreter who says: "I have

18 orally translated the above statement from French into Albanian in the

19 presence of (redacted), who appears to have heard and understood

20 my translation of this statement. (redacted)"

21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Too fast?

22 JUDGE ORIE: No, not too fast.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Yes.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise. That was a -- that was a serious

Page 1527

1 oversight on my part.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies accepted. Please proceed.


4 Q. The certificate goes on to say that you had acknowledged that the

5 matters set out in the statement as translated were true, to the best of

6 your knowledge and recollection, and that accordingly you had signed your

7 signature on the French statement where indicated.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So can we take it that by the time you signed the statement, you

10 understood what it said?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Could we please just look briefly -- I'll give the

14 three references. The French original with the signature on -- all of

15 these should, obviously, appear under seal or appear in closed --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do I understand that we get now the French

17 versions as exhibits?

18 MR. EMMERSON: I make it clear that I'm not going to tender this

19 document, but if it's to be marked for identification, then I think the

20 process is that the French version be marked for identification.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you'll read from the English version.

22 MR. EMMERSON: And the Albanian translation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And the Albanian translation. So what, then, is

24 still missing is the link between --

25 MR. EMMERSON: I was going to take it in stages.

Page 1528

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- the French. Yes. I'd like to have a look at the

2 French version at the same time when you're dealing with the English

3 version so that I could identify if there's any problem in relation to

4 that.

5 Now, just how to get that on my screen. I take it if you have

6 the right number, I can find the translation.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I can give you the number for each one. The

8 French translation -- I'm sorry, the French original is 2D21-0468, the

9 English translation is 2D21-0305, and the Albanian translation of the

10 statement for the witness is 2D21-0476.


12 MR. EMMERSON: And for everybody's assistance, the page numbers

13 may --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that if they have to

15 be marked for identification, they should receive numbers.

16 Madam Registrar, for first the French version, last four digits,

17 0468.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's one document and all the different versions are

20 attached to the original, and the original, Madam Registrar, would be the

21 French?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, it's the French original, which would have

23 the Exhibit number D13, marked for identification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Madam Registrar.

25 MR. EMMERSON: And the passages that I want to look at -- we can

Page 1529

1 look at the witness's signature, if that would assist, but I think it's

2 common ground that this is the statement that he signed. Would it assist

3 Your Honours to have the French translation with the signature on it

4 shown to the witness?

5 JUDGE ORIE: The French original.

6 MR. EMMERSON: French original.

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'd rather -- most important for me is to get

8 the French language on my screen, rather than --

9 Is there any dispute about this ...

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll get the French version. I don't think that

12 there's any dispute about this witness having signed these statements, is

13 there?


15 JUDGE ORIE: So, then, we could proceed with the content rather

16 than with the form.

17 MR. EMMERSON: And so for the witness in Albanian, for those who

18 speak English in the English version, and for Your Honour in the French

19 as well, the two paragraphs I want to look at are paragraphs 29 and 30.


21 MR. EMMERSON: They may not be on identical pages, but

22 fortunately the paragraphs are numbered.


24 MR. EMMERSON: Now, could we enlarge paragraphs 29 and 30 for the

25 witness?

Page 1530

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you see on your screen, in your own

2 language, paragraphs 29 and 30?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.


6 Q. Yes. Can you just read paragraphs 29 and 30 over to yourself.

7 But before you do, may I make it clear that - and this is for the Judges

8 as well as for yourself - the name that appears in paragraph 29,

9 Rexh Islami, you have already corrected in your evidence and I think as

10 well when you spoke to Mr. Kearney before you came to give evidence, and

11 what it should say, I think, is Xhevat Islami. So I'm not looking to ask

12 you about that particular difference. But could you just read paragraphs

13 29 and 30 to yourself, first of all, please.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Apart from that one error where the statement refers to

16 Rexh Islami rather than Xhevat Islami, are those two paragraphs accurate?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I just want to be clear because there was a translation

19 given during your evidence-in-chief earlier this afternoon where you were

20 referring to Xhevat Islami on the night that M was taken, and as it came

21 across the translation to us and, therefore, on the transcript, what was

22 translated was "Xhevat said he had come to our house in the name of

23 Ramush Haradinaj." And then a little later on, you were asked exactly

24 what had Xhevat said, and you said: "Xhevat said, 'I am Ramush'." And

25 you were asked: "Did you believe him?" And you said: "No, I did not

Page 1531

1 believe him because we knew who it was."

2 Just pause there. I'm just reminding you first of the evidence

3 that you gave earlier, and then I'm going to ask you some questions.

4 Just to be clear, did the man you believed was Xhevat Islami, did he say,

5 "I am Ramush" or did he say, "I am Ramush Haradinaj"?

6 A. He said, "I am Ramush Haradinaj."

7 Q. But you knew immediately that it was not Ramush Haradinaj?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you say in your statement that this wasn't the only time you

10 had heard this man pretending to be Ramush Haradinaj; is that right?

11 A. As I know for sure, that night he said, "I am Ramush."

12 Q. Just to be clear - again, I'm not trying to trick you in any

13 way - you say in your statement that this was not the first time you'd

14 heard him introduce himself that way. Now, if you can't remember now one

15 way or the other whether you'd ever heard him do it before, then please

16 say so.

17 A. I know for sure that that night he said that he was Ramush. It

18 is possible that he had introduced himself with that name on other

19 occasions, but for that I cannot assure you.

20 Q. And this was a man, you told us, that you knew because he'd come

21 to your house on many occasions before the war; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sorry, just to be clear, the man I'm referring to in that

24 question is Xhevat Islami, so let me put it again. Xhevat Islami had

25 come to your house on many occasions before the war, and that was how you

Page 1532

1 were able to recognise him; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I think you can confirm that even on the occasion that we're

4 talking about, when M was taken, he was not the man in charge, as far as

5 you could see?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Turning to paragraph 30, you say: "I've never seen Ramush

8 Haradinaj in person ..." Can I ask you this: Does it follow from that

9 that during the time you were in Ratis, you never saw Ramush Haradinaj in

10 that area?

11 A. No, I've never seen him in the area of Ratis.

12 Q. But you had heard that he was a good soldier and a good

13 commander; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You had heard that he had lived abroad; is that right?

16 A. In that time no, but I heard about this later.

17 Q. Just to be clear, you later heard that he had previously lived

18 abroad; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you had never heard him described as a killer?

21 A. No, I never heard anyone say that he had killed someone or that

22 he had imprisoned someone.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions, Mr. Emmerson?

25 Mr. Harvey, the situation as it was before.

Page 1533

1 MR. HARVEY: As it was before.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kearney.

3 MR. KEARNEY: If I could be heard, I have a very brief question

4 about this statement and I'll be done, we can finish with this witness.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If it's just one question, then I suggest that --

6 although I scheduled on the basis of five to ten minutes from

7 Mr. Emmerson, which was a bit more, but if it's just one question, then

8 let's proceed.

9 Mr. Kearney will -- Mr. Kearney will put another question to you.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Kearney:

12 Q. Witness 4, I want to direct your attention to that same paragraph

13 that you were just asked about. This is paragraph 29 in your 2006

14 statement. This is before you on the screen in Albanian, I believe. I

15 want to read the last sentence in that paragraph to you and I'm going to

16 ask you to comment on that, please. It reads: "In spite of everything,

17 it was Toger who seemed to be the head of the operation." Now, this is

18 the operation, I believe, you're referring to during which sister M was

19 taken?

20 I want to ask you, first of all, does that accurately reflect

21 what you told the investigator in 2006; namely, that Toger seemed to be

22 the head of that operation? Did you tell the investigator that, the

23 French investigator, in 2006?

24 A. I remember that I told her that on every occasion when they came

25 Toger was the number one.

Page 1534

1 Q. And when you told her that, did you believe -- or was that the

2 truth?

3 A. Who are you referring to?

4 Q. When you told the investigator that Toger seemed to be the person

5 in charge on every occasion, was that the truth?

6 A. You're referring to what I said, to my words?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Nothing further.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 4, since I do not see any further request

12 for additional questions by Defence counsel and since the Chamber has no

13 further questions for you, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to

14 thank you very much for having come to The Hague, and to have answered

15 questions of both parties and of the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip

16 home again.

17 Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness 4 out of the

18 courtroom.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I see the time. I'm conscious of the

22 need to ensure that the staff have an appropriate rest period.


24 MR. EMMERSON: I see that Mr. Dutertre has arrived in court. I'm

25 going, with Your Honour's leave, to make an effort to see if this matter

Page 1535

1 can be clarified and resolved for certainty without having to trouble

2 Your Honours, and therefore may I invite you to return after the break

3 and then, if need be, we will seek your assistance in respect of this

4 matter.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The disadvantage of that approach is that we

6 cannot use the 20 minutes we have available to think about it.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just introduce --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Can you just indicate what the matter is and then

9 we'll wait and see whether you resolve it.

10 MR. EMMERSON: I can indicate the problem. Just before we

11 resumed after the last break, Mr. Di Fazio provided me with the bundle in

12 my left hand of Rule 68 material relevant to the next witness and the

13 witness to follow. Can I indicate in a sentence: The content of this

14 material includes -- it may be better if, just for a second, we go into

15 closed.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1536











11 Pages 1536-1540 redacted. Private session.















Page 1541

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, is there any Defence exhibits

8 still to be admitted or not admitted? I think we dealt with the

9 Prosecution exhibits but not yet with the Defence exhibits which, if

10 tendered, would have to be tendered under seal anyhow.

11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not tendering this witness's statement. His

12 testimony covered the issue quite adequately.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So do we leave them then marked for identification?

14 Because the witness was invited to read paragraphs 29 and 30, and it

15 should be on the record somewhere what he read, actually, because it was

16 not literally read to him after that.


18 JUDGE ORIE: So it's not tendered. It remains, then, marked for

19 identification. I just have to go through the technicalities with

20 Madam Registrar.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then there are a few admission decisions still

23 pending, P22, et cetera, we'll deal with that first thing tomorrow.

24 Mr. Dutertre, are you ready to call your next witness? I do

25 understand the next witness is without protective measures, and that

Page 1542

1 witness would be ...

2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I am ready.

3 It's Miloica Vlahovic.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness

5 into the courtroom.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness. I understand you to be

8 Mr. Vlahovic. Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

10 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The

11 text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to

12 make that solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Vlahovic. Please be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vlahovic, you'll first be examined by

20 Mr. Dutertre, who's counsel for the Prosecution. We're in open session.

21 [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, please proceed.

22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Your name is Miloica Vlahovic. You were born on

25 July 12, 1965 in Pec, in Kosovo. Your nationality is -- your ethnic

Page 1543

1 origin in Serb. You were a teacher from 1989 to 1999 in Decane, and

2 until June 12, 1999, you lived in Kosovo. Is all this true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Your family home was located in Gornji Ratis. I apologise for

5 the pronunciation. This is where your father Milovan and your mother

6 Milka Vlahovic lived, and you also lived there off and on. By this, I

7 mean that you would spend some time there, but you also had another home

8 in Djakovica, a house that belonged to you, with a restaurant that also

9 belonged to you. Is all this true?

10 A. Yes, that's true.

11 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, you were a teacher in Decani. What pupils did you

12 have? Was this school open to all? I mean, was it open to Serbs as well

13 as people -- Albanians?

14 A. Yes, it was open to both.

15 Q. The pupils in this school, could you tell us what ethnic origin

16 they were?

17 A. They were Albanian, Roma, and Serb.

18 Q. As a majority, Albanian families were sending their children to

19 the school, or did they have their own schools that they sent their

20 children to?

21 A. Up until 1991, they used to send their children to that school.

22 Later on, they continued to send their children to state schools in

23 ethnically clean households. They just continued to send their children

24 to the state schools in the area.

25 Q. Why was there this change in 1991? And why was there this will

Page 1544

1 to send their children to schools that they would control themselves?

2 A. Well, from 1991 on, they were no longer willing to accept the

3 curriculum of the Serbian state ministry. They wanted to follow their

4 own curriculum, the one that was planned in Albania, and that's why the

5 ethnic Albanians no longer wanted to send their children to environments

6 where they were in touch with Serbs. In Decani municipality, the Serbs

7 were in the centre. As for the other schools, those in the provinces, in

8 the surrounding areas, they would send their children to state schools.

9 Q. What was the ethnic make-up between Serbs, Albanians, and Romas,

10 in your family village of Gornji Ratis in 1998?

11 A. There were few Serbs, perhaps about 20, up to 30. All the rest

12 were Albanians. There were no Roma people in Ratishe.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

14 move closer to the microphone? We can't hear him. Also, one of the

15 microphones is off; could that be switched on, please? Thank you.

16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Could you tell us what the ethnic composition between Serbs,

18 Albanians, and Romas, in the ten years before that?

19 A. Normally, most of the Serbs moved during the 1960s, but in my

20 village, the village of Ratishe, there was an elementary school there.

21 When I was a student there, for example, back in 1974 -- or, rather,

22 throughout the 1970s, there were about 20 students there.

23 In 1980, when my youngest brother finished school, there were

24 just two Serb students, and in that way you could tell how many Serbs had

25 left. There were hardly any Serbs left. The elementary school in Gornji

Page 1545

1 Ratis was also used by people in Gornji Ratis, but it had no more Serb

2 students after 1980. Not a single Serb student was left.

3 Q. Why did the Serb population leave Gornji Ratis? Could you tell

4 us the reasons?

5 A. Of course I can. There were several reasons. The ethnic

6 Albanians, the Siptars, pressured people. They raped girls. Not in

7 Ratishe but elsewhere. There was no freedom of movement for them. They

8 would inflict large-scale damage on the cornfields. They would set fire

9 to people's haystacks and livestock in villages in the area. Also, they

10 did not allow the Serbs to use the public irrigation system, which is

11 what people used for their cornfields and for all sorts of vegetables

12 that they grew. The Serbs were not allowed access to this public

13 irrigation system.

14 Q. When did you know that the situation was actually deteriorating

15 in the relationship between Serbs and Albanians?

16 A. The situation was always tense; you must know that. But

17 particularly 1990 and 1991 when there were cases of poisoning in schools

18 and they refused to study the Serbian language, I was still teaching at

19 Gramocelj, teaching the Serbian language to Albanian kids, between 1989

20 and 1991 -- September 1991. That's when the tensions really began to

21 mount.

22 Q. To be more specific, in 1997 and 1998, how did the situation

23 evolve?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Did you say that you were teaching Albanian language

25 to Serbian kids?

Page 1546

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I was teaching the Serbian

2 language to Albanian kids.


4 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.

5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 Q. In 1997, at the end of 1997 and in 1998, how would you describe

7 the situation prevailing between the Serb population and the Albanian

8 population?

9 A. Late in 1997 and early 1998, the situation at the village of

10 Rznic and Prilep and Ratishe, and that was on the way from Gornji Ratis

11 travelling from Djakovica, people in camouflage would turn up. They were

12 armed. They would stop cars of Serbs and Albanians alike. They IDed

13 people. They let some people go; they held some people back. And in

14 1998, Ratishe Borizan [phoen], a village called Glodjane, the distance

15 being about 1 or 2 kilometres as the crow flies. There was a training

16 camp there. You could hear sounds of shooting often in the afternoon,

17 shooting -- sounds of shooting coming from automatic weapons.

18 Q. Sir, you mentioned armed men wearing camouflage uniform and

19 stopping cars. Who were these men? What was their ethnicity?

20 A. They were Albanians.

21 Q. And how did you know this yourself? Who told you, or what was

22 your personal experience of these events?

23 A. No one ever pulled me over, although I used to travel quite a

24 bit. Maybe I was just lucky. The Stojanovic brothers were pulled over

25 as they were travelling. They lived near the village of Glodjane, very

Page 1547

1 close to the village of Glodjane. I also heard from some ethnic

2 Albanians, that's the sort of thing that people were saying at the time,

3 that they were pulling people over.

4 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, let's talk about the brothers Stojanovic for a

5 second. Could we have their first names, please, and could you tell us

6 exactly what happened to them?

7 A. Sure.

8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Before the witness answers, could Mr.

9 Dutertre establish the basis of the witness' knowledge before he asks him

10 to give testimony as to what happened to these individuals, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre.

12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Indeed, yes. I was going to get

13 there in my next question, but I could ask it right away.

14 Q. How do you know what happened to the Stojanovic brothers, sir?

15 A. They told me.

16 Q. When did they tell you, and on which occasion?

17 A. They told me that in 1998, April, I think it was the end of

18 April. I don't know the exact date. The man who had been beaten up,

19 Dragoslav Stojanovic, was in hospital in Pristina, whereas his brother

20 Mijat Stojanovic sustained only some injuries and didn't have to go to

21 the hospital. And also with them was their cousin Stijovic --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the full name.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

24 Q. These three individuals --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness please repeat the full name of the

Page 1548

1 last person he mentioned, the cousin, you said. What's the full name of

2 the cousin?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Veselin Stijovic.

4 JUDGE ORIE: At least I interpreted "counsel" as "cousin."

5 Please proceed.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he's a cousin.

7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. The French translation was

8 precise.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm switching from French to English and it

10 sometimes disallows me to hear exactly what was said, so therefore if the

11 transcript is wrong, I don't know whether it's a translation error or

12 whether it's a transcribing error. Please proceed.

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I understand.

14 Q. Witness, did these three individuals tell what happened, or was

15 it just one of them or two of them?

16 A. On that specific occasion, I talked to Dragoslav Stojanovic.

17 Q. What did he tell you exactly about the individual who stopped

18 them and what had happened to him?

19 A. They used to live in the village of Dubrava, that is, below the

20 village of Glodjane. They are very close to one another. On their way

21 home, having gone to fetch some fodder, the Albanians stopped them and

22 detained them, and they also beat them up, I don't know.

23 Q. Where did they detain them? Where, exactly?

24 A. They, I guess, took them to their house where they locked them up

25 and beat them, and they also took them to the village of Glodjane.

Page 1549

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Dutertre, could you make sure how the witness

2 knows, as he argued, "I don't know," "I guess" and so on. Maybe it's

3 just the style of his language or maybe he means it.

4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, you said, I guess they were taken to their home and

6 they were beaten and they were also taken to the village of Glodjane. Is

7 that something that Dragoslav Stojanovic told you?

8 A. Yes, he told me that they first took them to their home and then

9 later took them to the village of Glodjane.

10 Q. And what I wanted to know was whether it was Stojanovic Dragoslav

11 who told you this.

12 A. Yes, it was Dragoslav Stojanovic who told me that.

13 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, who is the Culafic family?

14 A. Malesha Culafic, although his real name is Kostadin, and his wife

15 Jela Culafic used to live in Donji Ratis. Malesha, or, rather, both of

16 them were people of advanced age. Malesha died three years ago and Jela

17 is still alive.

18 Q. How old were these two people, if you know, of course?

19 A. Sixty-eight or 70. I think Jela was 68 and Malesha was around 70

20 years of age.

21 Q. In 1998, that is?

22 A. Yes, approximately.

23 Q. You indicated that they lived in Donji Ratis. How far is

24 Donji Ratis, where you yourself lived, and Gornji Ratis?

25 A. They are adjacent to each other, and maybe there was about 1.5

Page 1550

1 kilometres between our house and their house.

2 Q. Did you know this couple personally?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Could you tell us what happened to them in 1998? However, before

5 you do so, I would like to know how you heard about what happened to

6 them, if anything at all happened to this couple. Did they tell you

7 themselves or did you get the information from other sources?

8 A. In 1998, I think it was February or maybe March, I'm not quite

9 sure, I think it was late February and/or early March, their house was

10 shelled, and I heard that from Malesha himself and from Jela as well. We

11 were giving a memorial service for my uncle, the 40-day memorial service,

12 at the time.

13 Q. You said that their house was shelled. Did you see this house,

14 and do you know what kind of weapon was used to shell the house?

15 A. No, I didn't see the house. Actually, I saw it before, but I

16 didn't see it after the shelling. I heard that it had been hit from a

17 hand-held launcher.

18 Q. Were you told by the Culafic couple?

19 A. Yes, that's what they told me.

20 Q. When did they talk to you about this incident?

21 A. I think it was in early April, between the 5th and the 10th of

22 April, when we were giving this 40-day memorial service. This is one of

23 our customs. And we organised it in the school building, for my uncle.

24 Q. Were Mr. and Mrs. Culafic home when their house came under

25 attack?

Page 1551

1 A. Yes, they were, but they were in another room.

2 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, who is Slobodan Prascevic?

3 A. Slobodan Prascevic was a police officer, or a police station

4 commander, in Rznic.

5 Q. How old was he in 1998?

6 A. I cannot say exactly, but he was retired at the time. He wasn't

7 working. He just received a decision on retirement. I think he was

8 around 55 because the police had an accelerated pension scheme.

9 Q. Did you hear anything about what happened to him? But before you

10 answer this question, I'd like to ask you who told you what may have

11 happened to him?

12 A. Pavle Djukic told me about him. He lives in Gornji Ratis, near

13 the church.

14 Q. And what did Pavle Djukic tell you exactly?

15 A. He told me that Slobo was driving a woman - I don't know her

16 name - and her son. He was attacked and that is when he was killed, near

17 the church in Gornji Ratis. He heard gun-shots, and this woman, I think

18 her first name was (redacted), was also injured; whereas her son went

19 unscathed.

20 Q. Did Mr. Djukic tell you when approximately this incident took

21 place?

22 A. I think it also happened sometime in early April or late March.

23 Q. When did he tell you about this incident himself?

24 A. He told me that around the 15th of April; that is to say, some

25 ten days later.

Page 1552

1 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, do you remember other incidents taking place in

2 Donji Ratis?

3 A. The only incident I know that took place in Donji Ratis was the

4 shelling of the church. I'm not sure whether that happened before

5 Prascevic's murder and this other incident. I'm not sure.

6 Q. Who told you about this incident; i.e., the shelling of the

7 church in Donji Ratis?

8 A. Dimitrije Radovic told me that. His house was next to the

9 church. And since it was unsafe, he kept the keys to the church. The

10 priest had given him the key for safekeeping.

11 Q. You've just referred to the priest. Was it an Orthodox church?

12 A. Yes, Orthodox church. It belongs to the monastery of Decani, and

13 it's the Holy Trinity Church.

14 Q. Very well. I'd like to move to another subject. Where did your

15 sister live in February 1998, and what was her name, if you only have one

16 sister?

17 A. I have two sisters. One used to live in Pec; her name is Nada

18 Vlahovic. And the younger sister, Natalia lived in the village of

19 Crmljane, Djakovica municipality.

20 Q. About the latter, what happened to your sister's house in 1998?

21 A. It was in late February, I think, or beginning of March. She was

22 married to the Babovic family in that village. So in late February or

23 early March, she gave birth to a child on the 16th of February, 1988 [as

24 interpreted]. So about two weeks later, they were attacked. There were

25 three Babovic brothers, and all three households were attacked from

Page 1553

1 automatic weapons because casings were retrieved on the spot, and there

2 were bullet-holes in the walls of the houses.

3 Q. Who told you about this incident?

4 A. My sister told me that, and I went to see her and I saw it with

5 my own eyes. I saw these bullet-holes and I saw the casings.

6 Q. Did your sister tell you how many men had attacked the houses?

7 A. They said there were several attackers and that fire shot --

8 gun-shots came from different directions. They didn't mention any

9 specific numbers.

10 Q. Was she able to provide a description of these men who attacked

11 the houses?

12 A. No. No, she couldn't describe them. They were just lying on the

13 floor -- she was lying on the floor with her little baby, so she couldn't

14 see anything.

15 Q. Were other houses attacked on that occasion in that village?

16 A. There are only three Serbian houses in total in the village of

17 Crmljane, three or four maybe at the most, but the three families were

18 living there.

19 Q. Only those houses came under attack, then?

20 A. I don't know whether the others were attacked, too.

21 Q. Now, one question that relates to translation maybe or the way

22 the name the village -- the name of the village should be pronounced.

23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] On the transcript, the name

24 doesn't seem to reflect correctly the name of the village as I know it.

25 Q. Could you please repeat very clearly, Mr. Vlahovic, the name of

Page 1554

1 the village where your sister used to live?

2 A. Crmljane, that was the name of the village. They used to call it

3 Muva but I know that its name was Crmljane.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 A. You're welcome.

6 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, when did you see your father and your mother,

7 Milovan and Milka Vlahovic, for the last time?

8 A. I saw my father and mother for the last time on the Tuesday, the

9 21st of April, 1988 -- 1998.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Where was it?

13 A. I saw them in my house in Gornji Ratis; that's where I spent the

14 night on the 20th of April. After spending the night, I left on the 21st

15 of April.

16 Q. Could you tell us what was the state of mind of the Serbs living

17 in Gornji Ratis at that time, on the 21st or around this date, if there

18 were still Serbs there?

19 A. On the 21st of April there were very few people. They went to

20 Decani and they would come back to feed the cattle. However, those who

21 stayed were Milos Radunovic, his wife Milica; Slobo Radosevic; two

22 Vujosevic women. One was Vukosava and the other one was called Darinka

23 Vujosevic-Kovac. That's her husband's last name. Marka Markovic,

24 Milojka, and her two sons were staying in Dasinovac; and also Radun

25 Dabetic and his wife and two children stayed in that village.

Page 1555

1 Q. This village being Gornji Ratis?

2 A. No. They were not all from Gornji Ratis. Some were from

3 Dasinovac village, but this is an adjacent village.

4 Q. Why did the other Serbs leave and why did they only come back to

5 feed the cattle?

6 A. Because of what happened to Malesha Culafic and what happened

7 with the church. They felt unsafe. One could hear shooting in Glodjane,

8 and later when I came back on the 20th, my father told me that they had

9 been firing close to our house. They did actually fire into the air but

10 it was very near our house.

11 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, it is almost 7.00.

12 Could you please find an appropriate moment to conclude for today?

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, very briefly, a few questions

14 and then I'll close for the day.

15 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, I'd like to go back to your last answer very

16 briefly. You said that they were shooting in the air close to your

17 house. Who was shooting in the air close to the house?

18 A. The Albanians. Among them were our neighbours from Ratis as

19 well.

20 Q. Is that something you saw yourself, or heard yourself, rather?

21 A. No, because I wasn't home at the time. That's what my father

22 told me on the Monday when I came back, and this happened on the Sunday

23 before that. I had been to Sremska Kamenica with my mother to visit my

24 later -- late uncle who was in hospital there.

25 Q. And what were you told exactly by your father about these men?

Page 1556

1 Did he provide a description of them?

2 A. I didn't ask him that. I didn't see any reason why I should do

3 that.

4 Q. You said that shooting could be heard in Glodjane, and in one of

5 your previous answers you said, I believe but I could be corrected if I'm

6 wrong, I could check again, but I believe you said that it was a shooting

7 place of sorts. How did you know --

8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I could check. I could check, if

9 you want. I could check.

10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, Mr. Dutertre is wrong, and since it

11 needs checking, perhaps it could be checked overnight. That's not the

12 answer the witness gave.

13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I could check tonight

14 and I could ask this question tomorrow morning. The question will be

15 more accurate. That would be in everyone's interests and I could close

16 for the evening now.

17 JUDGE ORIE: It will be the afternoon as we're sitting tomorrow

18 in the afternoon.

19 Witness, we will adjourn for the day and we'll continue tomorrow

20 at a quarter past 2.00 in courtroom I. I instruct you not to speak with

21 anyone about the testimony you have given until now and you are still

22 about to give tomorrow.

23 We stand adjourned.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

Page 1557

1 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.