Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3256

1 Tuesday, 24 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in this courtroom and also

7 those assisting us just outside the courtroom.

8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 May I first inquire in -- as to whether the exhibits, a list of

13 141, have been already introduced in the system or -- it's quite a lot of

14 work.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed that Madam Registrar has worked hard on

17 it, but that not every single document has been assigned a number. So

18 we'll hear from her most likely later today.

19 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

20 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I am insofar --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Zyrapi, then you'll now be cross-examined first

22 by Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel -- you don't -- I do understand that you

23 don't hear me in -- there seems to be -- Madam Usher, could you please

24 assist the witness in finding the right channel, perhaps.

25 Mr. Zyrapi, do you now hear me in a language you understand?

Page 3257

1 Now, Mr. Zyrapi --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- before I will invite Mr. Emmerson to start his

4 cross-examination, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

5 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

6 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I should indicate insofar as I may

8 need to refer to any of the documents that were formally produced

9 yesterday, we have hard copies in a small clip. I don't think

10 Your Honours have it. What I've done is I've made selections of the

11 documents that I need to refer to, and I will also give what I hope is

12 the correct at least Rule 65 ter number at this stage.


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

16 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of

17 Ramush Haradinaj. I want to start, if I can, please, by just getting the

18 basic chronology of your own personal involvement clear. Do I have it

19 correct that between mid-March and the 28th of May, you were in Albania?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then between the 28th of May and mid-July, you were in Kosovo

22 travelling around. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could both microphones of the witness be

25 switched on, please?

Page 3258

1 MR. EMMERSON: They do both appear to be switched -- sorry, both

2 of the microphones do appear to be switched on. If there's a problem --

3 THE INTERPRETER: They weren't. Now they are.


5 Q. And then in mid-July, you were given a post of director of the

6 operational department. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And prior to that, had you had a formal position, a title?

9 A. As I already mentioned yesterday, I was an officer for the

10 development of the KLA in the framework of the operational directorate.

11 Q. Then from November 1998 until April 1999, you were Chief of the

12 General Staff. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then in April 1999, you returned to Albania. Is that right?

15 A. Yes, after I received another appointment.

16 Q. Now, I want, if I may, to focus for a short time on the period

17 between mid-March when you arrived in Albania and the 28th of May when

18 you entered Kosovo. First of all, can I ask you this: You've told us

19 that you were living in a flat with Naim Maloku and others. Was there a

20 headquarters building in Albania at that time, between the 28th of -- I'm

21 sorry, between mid-March and the 28th of May?

22 A. As far as I know, at that time there wasn't a separate building

23 for that purpose.

24 Q. And was there a physical location in which the logistics

25 department was based?

Page 3259

1 A. The people I worked with at the time lived in different places.

2 Q. And had meetings in their flats and cafes and so forth. Is that

3 what you're describing for the Tribunal?

4 A. I don't know where they held that meet -- their meetings. I only

5 met them when they came to my flat and took me to go and visit places.

6 Q. So did you have a title yourself before you left Albania?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You told us that when you first arrived in Albania, there was a

9 period of time you had to wait before being accepted by the

10 General Staff. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And roughly how long was that?

13 A. From mid-March until the 28th of May, when I joined, that was the

14 period I was in waiting.

15 Q. So you told us yesterday you spent some time training people

16 inside Albania. Were you then not accepted into the KLA by that point?

17 A. I was engaged logistically, but I hadn't received a confirmation

18 from the General Staff that I had been accepted.

19 Q. Yeah. Just so that we can get this situation clear, because it

20 might have appeared yesterday in your evidence that there was some kind

21 of organisational formality about all this. But from what you're telling

22 us now, you were in a situation where you were neither in the KLA or out

23 of it and yet being trusted to conduct training. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And was the General Staff supposed to approve the membership of

Page 3260

1 everybody who was admitted to the KLA or only people who had formerly

2 held rank in the Yugoslav Army?

3 A. The approval by the General Staff had to be given to the former

4 officers who had served in the Yugoslav Army.

5 Q. So ordinary foot soldiers, if I can put it that way, people just

6 turning up and volunteering, they didn't require any sort of formal

7 approval by the General Staff?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Just so that I'm clear what you mean by that answer, ordinary

10 foot soldiers -- dealing with ordinary foot soldiers who had not been

11 officers of the Yugoslav Army, was it necessary for the General Staff

12 individually to approve each and every one of them or not?

13 A. As far as I know, only the officers had to be approved, not the

14 other people.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, you mean the officers -- former officers

16 of JNA or officers of KLA?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was speaking about the former

18 officers of the JNA and all the other armies as well.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is how I understood it. Thank you.


21 Q. So they needed, if I can put it this way, to check you out. Is

22 that the position?

23 A. Not only me, but all other former officers before they were

24 allowed to join.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Like "you" as in --

Page 3261

1 MR. EMMERSON: In the plural.

2 Q. I understand your answer and I wasn't singling you out, but the

3 point, if I can take it to the specific, in your particular case, the

4 delay was about checking you out to make sure that you were reliable. Is

5 that correct?

6 A. Of course, yes.

7 Q. But even though they didn't know that you were reliable, they

8 used you for training. Did that strike you as strange?

9 A. I didn't start the training immediately. I started the training

10 after some time I had been there.

11 Q. Yes. I understand that, but you've told us that you weren't

12 approved until the 28th of May, when you left Albania. So from what

13 you're telling us, you were being used for training even though nobody

14 had finally come to the conclusion that you were safe.

15 A. Yes, I waited, yes.

16 Q. And who were these General Staff people?

17 A. At the time, the members of the General Staff that I knew of were

18 Xhavit Haliti and other people, Xhemal Fetahu, Ilir Konushefci,

19 Raif Gashi. Azem Syla was as well involved at the time.

20 Q. Were there some that you didn't know who they were?

21 A. There were others as well, but I did not know all of them.

22 Q. And do you know who chose them to be members of the General Staff

23 or whether they just chose themselves?

24 A. I don't know who chose them, because I wasn't there at the

25 period; but when I went there, I met them.

Page 3262

1 Q. And did you ever learn who that group had been appointed by, if

2 anybody, or whose authority they were -- on whose authority they were

3 appointed?

4 A. As far as I know, the General Staff was formed by the LPK.

5 Q. And the process of choosing the members, do you know anything

6 about that?

7 A. No, I don't know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness tell me what "LPK" exactly stands

9 for?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] LPK means the Popular Movement of

11 Kosovo.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And, Mr. Emmerson, what was the meaning of your

13 question: "The process of choosing the members, do you know anything

14 about that?" Members of ...

15 MR. EMMERSON: Oh, I'm sorry, the members of the General Staff.

16 If that wasn't clear, perhaps I should put the question again.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Wasn't that the gist of the answer before, what

18 you were inquiring into?

19 MR. EMMERSON: Well, perhaps I should put --

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The General Staff was formed by the LPK.

21 MR. EMMERSON: The question is the process by which the people

22 were selected for membership, is the question I was asking. Let me --

23 let me put it again.



Page 3263

1 Q. Just for the sake of clarity, Mr. Zyrapi, but do you know

2 anything about the process by which the individuals who were members of

3 the General Staff when you arrived in March had been personally selected

4 for membership of the General Staff?

5 A. As I said earlier, I don't know how people were appointed.

6 Q. At this point in mid-March when you first arrived, the

7 General Staff, as far as you understood it, did it have any effective

8 control on the ground of what was going on in Kosovo?

9 A. I don't know about any control at the time.

10 Q. The term "General Staff," as I said earlier, could create the

11 impression of a degree of real organisation. So let me just ask you

12 about that. You've told us as far as you know, is it correct, that they

13 did not have a building out of which to operate?

14 A. As far as I know, yes, they didn't.

15 Q. And again, just to be clear, the General Staff, do you know how

16 and where they would ever meet?

17 A. I don't know where they met and how they met.

18 Q. Can I put this to you: From what you saw, is it fair to say that

19 this was a group of men calling themselves the General Staff who were

20 meeting in one another's flats and in cafes. Is that a fair summary of

21 what was going on there when you first arrived?

22 A. At the time I arrived there, I don't know where -- where and how

23 they met. But when I arrived there, I told you that they came to my flat

24 to see me, and they took me to the places where we did the training.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, one of the last answers of the witness

Page 3264

1 was: "I don't know where they met and how they met." And then to

2 summarize that, to say that they met in flats and cafes might not be a

3 proper way of putting this --

4 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm putting -- I'm putting a specific

5 suggestion that --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you said "Is it fair" --

7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Is it a fair summary of what was going on?

8 I'm sorry --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it suggests that it summarizes what the witness

10 had seen.

11 MR. EMMERSON: When he said --

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- or at least what he had told us what he had seen

13 and it's not.

14 Please proceed.


16 Q. Did you ever see written documents whilst you were in Albania?

17 A. During the time I was in Albania, I never saw a written document.

18 Q. Did you ever understand anything about the structure of the

19 operational department, as it was called? At that time, sorry.

20 A. During the time I was in Albania, no. I only knew about the

21 logistics department.

22 Q. And again, so that we're clear, the training that you were

23 conducting, was that something that had been organised by somebody who

24 called themselves a member of a logistics department or an operational

25 department?

Page 3265

1 A. During the time I was there, it was the logistics department who

2 undertook to do the training. I didn't know of any person who was in the

3 operational department at the time.

4 Q. And so that we have the picture clearly, somebody who said, I'm

5 from the logistics department, asked you to do the training, is that

6 right? An individual who said, I'm from the logistics department?

7 A. At that time, he was in the logistics department. He introduced

8 himself as such and he worked as such, and he asked me to get involved in

9 the training of soldiers.

10 Q. And who was that?

11 A. It was Xhavit Haliti, but also Xhemal Fetahu and Ilir Konushefci.

12 Q. And were they also members of the logistical department?

13 A. Yes, as far as I know.

14 Q. Apart from meeting these men in your flat and doing what they had

15 asked you to do, did you see any other evidence of a structure that might

16 be called a logistics department: people, documents, places?

17 A. For the time I was there, no, I didn't.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I seek on one point of

19 clarification from the witness.

20 Mr. Zyrapi, you said: "I didn't know of any person who was in

21 the operational department at the time."

22 Now, in your statement of November 2005, you said: "In the early

23 days of the war, spring 1998, the General Staff was composed of ...," and

24 then you mention a few names. Among them, Rexhep Selimi, director of the

25 military operations department. And then later on, you said that some

Page 3266

1 members, and you specifically point at this Mr. Selimi, spent most of the

2 time in Kosovo.

3 How am I to reconcile that you say, I didn't know of any person

4 in the operational department; whereas, in your statement you give this

5 name, and you explain to us that this person was the director of the

6 military operations department?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When I gave the statement in

8 November 2005, I was explaining the phenomena and the way things

9 happened, and part of those people I knew in Tirana, while the people in

10 the operational directorate I got to know only after I entered Kosova,

11 not during the period I was in Tirana.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So you were giving a report looking back to the

13 situation at that time, but not necessarily what you knew at the time.

14 Thank you.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask a question. Would you, Mr. Emmerson,

17 intend to go into this procurement --


19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- process which the witness described yesterday?

20 Because that may gain some evidence on the structure.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I have some questions in relation to that.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.


24 Q. Can I just follow-up on Judge Orie's question for a moment. As

25 far as you know, during the time that you were in Albania, between

Page 3267

1 mid-March and the end of May, were any members of the General Staff

2 inside Kosovo at that time?

3 A. Yes, but I didn't know the names at the time, who they were.

4 Q. Did you know whether they were, in fact, involved in any of the

5 combat operations or activities?

6 A. No, I didn't know that at the time.

7 Q. Because there were, during that period of time, pockets of KLA

8 activity in different parts of Kosovo as well as villagers beginning to

9 arm themselves, weren't there?

10 A. I only heard about them.

11 Q. But you did hear about them. You gave some answers yesterday

12 about particular engagements, armed engagements, that you'd heard about?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. None of this was being coordinated by the General Staff, I

15 suggest.

16 A. I don't know, because I wasn't there.

17 Q. Can I then come to Judge Hoepfel's question and the issue of

18 procurement of weapons. You yourself were involved, you told us, in

19 inspecting certain weapons. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can I ask you: Who asked you to do that?

22 A. I was asked to do that by Xhavit Haliti, Xhemal Fetahu,

23 Ilir Konushefci, Raif Gashi, and others.

24 Q. And what sort of places would you go to look at these weapons?

25 A. I was asked to go and inspect in Tirana, Elbasan, Durres,

Page 3268

1 Shkoder.

2 Q. I'm sorry. Let me put the question a bit more specifically.

3 Would you be going to a warehouse or would you be going to somebody's

4 back garden? What sort of places would you be going to look at?

5 A. These were in private places. They weren't warehouses. I just

6 went there to inspect the weapons, whether they were fit for use.

7 Q. You say "private places," do you mean in people's homes?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And are we talking about you looking at quite small quantities at

10 a time then, 10 or 15 weapons at a time, or much, much more than that on

11 each occasion?

12 A. It depended. Sometimes there were small quantities, sometimes

13 there were up to 50 or 100 weapons.

14 Q. So how small would the smallest quantities be that you might be

15 asked to look at?

16 A. As far as I remember, the smallest quantity was 50.

17 Q. I see. Just -- sorry, just to be clear. A moment ago, you said:

18 "Sometimes there were small quantities, sometimes there were up to 50 or

19 100."

20 Were there occasions when you, in fact, looked at much smaller

21 quantities than 50?

22 A. There might have been, but I can't remember exactly. I remember

23 more these quantities of 50 or a hundred weapons.

24 Q. And is it right to say that very often these would be second-hand

25 weapons?

Page 3269

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And sometimes an assortment of different weapons brought

3 together?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you have to examine them to see whether each individual

6 weapon worked?

7 A. Yes, and this was done also by other former officers who were

8 there together with me.

9 Q. And sometimes did you have to reject them because they were not

10 functioning or poor quality or too old?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And were quite a lot of them weapons that had been manufactured

13 in the 1950s and the 1960s?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And these are really elderly pieces of kit, aren't they, for a

16 modern army?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But it was just the best you could all get your hands on at the

19 time. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you started this line of questioning

22 with referring to inspection of weapons the witness told us about

23 yesterday. Could you give us the precise source, because I see some of

24 this, but could you tell me exactly what you're referring to?

25 MR. EMMERSON: In terms of the witness's testimony?

Page 3270


2 MR. EMMERSON: I'm afraid I haven't got the transcript line, but

3 I'm sure we could find it enough --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could please find it for me and then for

5 me to put it in context.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Of course, of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we understand that this inspection was the

9 preparation of the purchasing of these weapons? This was, how I

10 understood it yesterday, that this was a process of purchasing this

11 weaponry? I understood it correctly?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And I would have one question in relation to

14 that, but I don't want to interfere --

15 MR. EMMERSON: I think Judge Orie may have a question.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'd like to hear the exact source,

18 Mr. Emmerson, from you soon, the source of the testimony yesterday --

19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes --

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- which page and which line?

21 Then please proceed at this moment.

22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. I've slightly lost my train of

23 thought.

24 Q. Would there be occasions when you would take weapons that needed

25 to be repaired but could be put in working order?

Page 3271

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 Q. Very well. Now --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps already for the time being.

4 You were talking about inspecting weapons. Were those weapons

5 that were already in the possession of the KLA or the General Staff, or

6 were those weapons that still had to be acquired?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were weapons which had to be

8 obtained.


10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think you'll find, just

11 to be of assistance, I think you'll find the transcript - or at least

12 part of it - pages 42 and 43 of yesterday's evidence.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, that's the passage -- on the uncorrected

14 transcript, it's 42 and 43.


16 MR. EMMERSON: And in particular 42, lines 10 to 25, where the

17 witness said he participated in the purchase of weapons and checked the

18 technical part of it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I just wanted to be sure that where the

20 word "inspection" is used, that was also at a later stage somewhere else.

21 So I wanted to be sure --


23 JUDGE ORIE: -- that when you talked about inspection of weapons,

24 that you were talking about the checking of weapons --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Prior to purchase at this stage. Yes. That's

Page 3272

1 what he's referring to at that part of the transcript.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- it's clear to me now in the context.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


6 Q. I want to come very briefly to a matter that you referred to in

7 your witness statement and very briefly alluded to in your evidence which

8 was the first occasion that you came across Ramush Haradinaj in Tirana.

9 Now, I want to be clear about this, if I can, with you. Is it right that

10 you arrived back at your flat on one occasion as Mr. Haradinaj was

11 leaving after he had been having a rather heated discussion with

12 Naim Maloku. Is that a fair summary of the position?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And he was wounded at the time, I think, both in his hand and in

15 his leg. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. His hand was bandaged and he was walking badly. Is that right?

18 A. To my recollection, yes.

19 Q. Now, first of all this: You referred very briefly yesterday to

20 an attack on Gllogjan by the Serb forces, just a brief reference at one

21 point in your evidence. Did it become clear to you that Mr. Haradinaj

22 had sustained those injuries in the major assault that took place on

23 Gllogjan on the 24th of March?

24 A. I don't remember the time, but I learned from my colleagues that

25 there were fightings in Gllogjan and that he was wounded during that

Page 3273

1 time.

2 Q. And did you learn from your colleagues that he had come to

3 Albania partly for medical treatment and partly to obtain further weapons

4 to fight back?

5 A. I heard from my colleagues that he came for treatment to Tirana.

6 Q. And, again just to put it in summary form, did you discover from

7 Naim Maloku that the basis of the disagreement was that Mr. Haradinaj was

8 saying if there were trained soldiers in Tirana, we need you to help us

9 in Kosovo, not to be sitting in Tirana?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, I want to see if you can help us to date this meeting,

12 because in your November 2005 witness statement, paragraph 8, you

13 describe it as having occurred around the end of April or the beginning

14 of May. I want to see if I can try and focus you down a little bit more

15 on that. You're aware, aren't you, that Naim Maloku subsequently entered

16 Kosovo on the 21st of April. Is that right?

17 A. I don't know the accurate date when he joined. I don't recall

18 the exact date. It may be around the date when he met with Ramush.

19 Q. Do you remember a situation a little after this meeting when

20 Naim Maloku went to Bajram Curri in preparation for being deployed into

21 Kosovo?

22 A. Yes, yes, I do.

23 Q. And do you remember him telephoning you in Tirana, that is Naim

24 telephoning you in Tirana, when he was in Bajram Curri, and asking you

25 why you, yourself, weren't there with him?

Page 3274

1 A. I don't remember this conversation, but I know that he -- I

2 remember that he called me from Bajram Curri; this is how far I remember.

3 Q. And was there a discussion between you about whether he should

4 come back to Tirana or go ahead to Kosovo?

5 A. I know that we had a conversation, but I don't remember the

6 contents of that conversation.

7 Q. Very well. You remember the phone call, and you remember that

8 Naim Curri was in -- sorry, Naim Maloku was in Bajram Curri at the time

9 of the phone call. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

11 Q. And can you confirm that it was on the same night as the phone

12 call that Naim Maloku entered Kosovo?

13 A. I don't recall the accurate time.

14 Q. Very well.

15 A. But I know that we had that phone call.

16 Q. Very well. Let me put it to you this way. You accept, do you,

17 that the 21st of April could be the right date?

18 A. I'm not certain about the date.

19 Q. Very well. Can you help us with this: How long before that

20 phone call, roughly, was the occasion when you saw Ramush Haradinaj in

21 Tirana?

22 A. I don't recall that.

23 Q. Very well, very well. I'll leave it then. I'll leave the

24 question then.

25 I want to come now to what you see when you enter Kosovo, what

Page 3275

1 your understanding is of the state of organisation inside Kosovo at the

2 time. And for that purpose, I want to put to you a passage of the

3 testimony that you gave in the Limaj trial.

4 MR. EMMERSON: And I wonder if we might have that on the screen.

5 This is document identification 1D110714, that is the start of

6 Mr. Zyrapi's testimony, and the passage I want to ask him to look at is

7 0719. It should have, yeah, 6823 at the bottom.

8 Could we look, please, to line 24, first of all, on that page,

9 and I want to then follow the text through from there. So I'll just read

10 this into the record, if I may. The bottom of page - and we're now in

11 the Limaj transcript - 6823, line 24.

12 Q. You say this: "At the time of my arrival, there were two active

13 zones where combat was going on and which had organised units. At that

14 time, it was," and then we need to go over to the following page, "it was

15 Drenica zone, which was in the phase of development, and the Dukagjini

16 Plain Zone, which was also active in military actions and in its

17 development.

18 "Q. Now, I'm just going to concentrate on those two for the

19 moment. Were the -- those two zones developed in the same way or were

20 they being developed differently, at different stages, and so on? Can

21 you describe what was happening?

22 "A. Yes. These two zones, as I said, were in the phase of

23 development; they were not fully developed. They had reached the level

24 of organised units in villages and were moving towards the unification of

25 the command of the Drenica zone. Gradually these units had started their

Page 3276

1 structuring in military ways, like units and companies, and they were all

2 directly linked to the command of the zone. Later on, the development of

3 the command continued in the next period.

4 "Q. And can you just indicate what the next period was from the

5 point of view of months? Which part of 1998 are we dealing with for the

6 next period?"

7 And you say: "They continued into the next period, and in August

8 of 1998 brigades emerged. It was easier to form brigades in the Drenica

9 zone" --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --

11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Reading usually goes quicker than --

13 MR. EMMERSON: Although they have the transcript to translate.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I'm following the interpreters

15 also on other languages.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

18 I'll pick up where I was.

19 Q. Yes. You reply:

20 "They continued into the next period, and in August of 1998

21 brigades emerged. It was easier to form brigades in Drenica zone because

22 the territories had been designated, and the development of these

23 brigades continued because in July, August, September, we suffered many

24 offensives which caused an impediment to us to continue with the

25 establishment of other zones."

Page 3277

1 Well, question -- sorry, question.

2 "Q. Well, that brings me to ask you about a zone we've heard

3 about, namely Pastrik zone. What can you tell us about that and its

4 development?

5 "A. When I arrived in June, this zone was not developed as a

6 zone. They were self-organised units, local staffs such as the local

7 staff in Malisheve of not very high military organisation level. This

8 zone began to be structured in mid-June. I don't know exactly the date,

9 but I know that during my visits to this zone in this time, I came across

10 many self-organised units and units that were not unified in the command.

11 This zone was not active at that time. In June, the preparations for the

12 zone began, and of course in June and July we couldn't reach the highest

13 level of organisation of this zone. As I said, there were many Serb

14 offensives in June and July. The restructuring, however, continued to

15 the next months but it did not reach the desirable level, as was the case

16 with other zones as well.

17 "Q. When did it reach the desired level?

18 "A. The level" -- and this is your answer, "the level of brigade

19 or zone was not reached until the end of the war, but in those parts when

20 this was achieved at a lesser level, it was in October or November. You

21 could speak here of a small unification of command, of the military

22 structure emerging, and then it continued in January and February, and

23 with the beginning of the NATO bombing campaign the zones were

24 consolidated and organised in military zones."

25 Now, first of all, can I ask you to confirm that that is a

Page 3278

1 correct assessment of the position as you understood it to be at the time

2 that you had entered into Kosovo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So at that stage, is it right to say then there were only two

5 zones, as such, that had been described as zones within the KLA; that is,

6 Drenica and Dukagjin?

7 A. When I explained this in my statement as well, I said that the

8 Dukagjini Zone was more active in terms of attacks.

9 Q. Yes. Yes. I'm not criticising you; I'm just seeking

10 clarification from you. Can you confirm that in the period after you

11 arrived on the 28th of May, so we're now talking June and July, there

12 were only two areas of Kosovo in which it -- there was what was described

13 as a KLA zone; namely, Drenica and Dukagjin?

14 A. Yes, for that period.

15 Q. And it wasn't until much later that the zones of Llap and

16 Pashtrik and Karadak and so on came to be established, was it?

17 A. Yes, it was. At least this is what I know. They were formed at

18 a later time.

19 Q. And by "a later time," those zones didn't come to be formed as

20 zones until the autumn, did they, of 1998?

21 A. To my recollection, they didn't function as proper zones.

22 Q. Now, you were also asked a question in the evidence that you gave

23 in the Milutinovic case about zones, and I'm not going to go to the

24 transcript because it's a shorter passage. But for the record, it's the

25 Milutinovic transcript page 5967, line 19. You were asked to look at --

Page 3279

1 to address the position across the whole of Kosovo during the period that

2 you were there after the 28th of May. And you were asked this question:

3 "Now, just so we have the right understanding of this, did the KLA hold

4 the entire territory within each zone?"

5 And you replied: "No, no. Only a very little part of each

6 zone."

7 Now, can I understand, what is the position here? Is that -- is

8 that an accurate reflection of the position?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. So when we talk about zones, generally, are we talking about

11 areas of operation within which there may be pockets of KLA control and

12 pockets of Serb control?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, can I be clear, was that your understanding about Drenica?

15 A. Yes. In general, this applied to all the zones.

16 Q. That was going to be my question. And so just so that this

17 Trial Chamber has your testimony clear, was that also the position in

18 relation to Dukagjin?

19 A. Yes. I'm talking about the period I was there, from July.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just for you to know that I have some

21 difficulties in understanding this testimony where it seems that the word

22 "zone" is used both for a geographical denomination and for a -- and kind

23 of an organisatorial [sic]. I mean, if you are talking about functioning

24 of zones, if you're talking about establishing of zones, and if one or

25 two questions later the reference to zones seems to be to a geographical

Page 3280

1 area, that is -- at least there is a risk of confusion --


3 JUDGE ORIE: -- and --

4 MR. EMMERSON: And I think, if I may say so, that -- that really

5 lies at the heart of an analysis of this part of the testimony is teasing

6 out the difference between an area of responsibility, being a

7 geographical zone, and a zone command, being concentrated pockets of KLA

8 activity within a more or less emerging command structure.

9 JUDGE ORIE: This is your explanation of it. I'm just pointing

10 out what problems I'm facing at this moment.


12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


14 Q. I want to put a very specific suggestion to you about the

15 Dukagjin Zone. I'll come back to look at some of the documents emanating

16 from that zone a little later in your evidence, but I want to put a very

17 specific suggestion to you. You have told us that when you went to

18 Dukagjin in middle -- in the middle of July, the area to the west of the

19 Peje-Gjakove road was not properly integrated into the Dukagjin Zone, and

20 that the purpose of your visit was to improve that integration. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to suggest to you that the formation of what came to be

24 described as the Dukagjin Operational Zone evolved over the period from

25 the end of March to August with a smaller Dukagjin Staff being formed at

Page 3281

1 the end of May out of the commanders of villages in the area of Gllogjan.

2 A. I don't know about the earlier period, how they were formed, but

3 it was like ...

4 Q. And I want to suggest to you specifically that at the end of May,

5 a smaller area covering a number of villages around Gllogjan came

6 together to form a Dukagjin Staff, which included neither Junik on the

7 west, nor Jablanica on the east.

8 A. For that period, I don't know what it comprised. I spoke only

9 about the time I was there.

10 Q. Yes. But you do know, I think, because you've been taken by the

11 Prosecution through some of the documents that show the process by which

12 the Dukagjin Zone enlarged, haven't you?

13 A. I can't know that, because it was for the first time for me that

14 I saw the documents put to me by the Prosecution.

15 Q. I see. Well, we'll look at them in a little more detail in a

16 moment or two.

17 Again, now I want to come back to the issue of the General Staff

18 and its functioning whilst you were first inside Kosovo, so that we

19 understand -- we've asked -- I've asked you some questions about the

20 General Staff and what it really amounted to in Tirana, and now I want to

21 ask you some questions about the General Staff and what it really

22 amounted to on the ground once you had entered into Kosovo. Because by

23 then, you've told us, you were admitted as a member of the KLA. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3282

1 Q. And was it from the 28th of May that you also had the rank that

2 you've described, or the title that you've described, within the

3 operations department?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So can we take it that from that point onwards, you knew a little

6 bit more about how the General Staff was trying to function or not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there a headquarters for the General Staff in Kosovo?

9 A. I already said that when I entered, the headquarters was in

10 Likoc --

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the name.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but the General Staff moved from

13 place to place. They did not stay in one place only. That -- those

14 movements were for reasons of security.


16 Q. And -- again, just so the Chamber has it clear, whilst you were

17 in Kosovo after the 28th of May, was the whole General Staff then in

18 Kosovo?

19 A. No. Part of the General Staff was inside Kosovo, the rest was in

20 Albania.

21 Q. And how many, roughly, of these individuals were in Kosovo?

22 A. Part of the General Staff who was inside, such as Rexhep Selimi,

23 Sokol Bashota, Jakup Krasniqi, Hashim Thaqi, who sometimes stayed inside

24 Kosovo and sometimes left, Adem Grabovci was inside as well.

25 Q. So you've given us four names who were inside Kosovo

Page 3283

1 continuously, is that right, and one name, Hashim Thaqi, who went

2 backwards and forwards. Is that an accurate reflection of the position?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did these four who were there the whole time, did they stay

5 together in one place? Sorry, let me rephrase that question.

6 Did they stay together and move from place to place, as you have

7 described, or were they in different locations?

8 A. As far as I remember - because I was always on the move because

9 of my operational duties - I know that the members of the General Staff

10 were always in movement but not together.

11 Q. So we've got four individuals, have we, in four different places?

12 A. I'm not saying in four different places, but in several different

13 places. I can't know where they all were because of the areas I visited

14 myself.

15 Q. I understand. But just so that we have the picture. They're

16 moving about but they're not moving about together; that's what you've

17 told us, isn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. They still had no headquarters building in Tirana; is that the

20 position, as far as you know?

21 A. I don't remember a building for that purpose in Tirana, at the

22 time.

23 Q. And just to be clear, did they have a dedicated headquarters

24 building in Kosovo, yes or no, in -- at the end of May/beginning of June?

25 A. At the end of May and beginning of June, they were in Likoc, in

Page 3284

1 the Drenica territory.

2 Q. And did they have a building there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was that a building specifically set aside for the General

5 Staff or did it do other things as well?

6 A. This was a private home.

7 Q. So they were staying in somebody's home; is that the position?

8 A. Yes, a private home; that's where the General Staff stayed in the

9 period end of May/beginning of June, when I entered.

10 Q. You say -- as I said to you earlier, the concept of the

11 General Staff and some of the labels and titles that you and your

12 colleagues gave yourselves might create the impression that we were

13 dealing with some sort of formalised military structure. But what you're

14 telling us is the four individuals who were inside Kosovo and travelling

15 around used to stay together in a private house from time to time. Is

16 that right?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please --


19 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I object to the way that question's framed. If

20 the witness answers yes, the four individuals who were inside Kosovo --

21 if he answers yes to the notion of four individuals travelling around and

22 staying together in a private house, that might imply that the impression

23 that he's given about formalised military structures is also incorrect.

24 It's -- it needs to be -- I certainly don't mind if Mr. Emmerson --

25 MR. EMMERSON: I understand the point.

Page 3285

1 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I don't mind if Mr. --

2 MR. EMMERSON: I understand the point.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson understands the point and will take

4 action accordingly.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I think so that we're clear, perhaps if I put a

7 subsequent question rather than invite the witness's response to what was

8 a rolled-up question.

9 Q. When they travelled around then, did they have an escort that was

10 dedicated to the General Staff or were they just using the guards that

11 were already attached to the local village defence units to escort them

12 from one place to the other, like you did when you visited the Dukagjin

13 Zone?

14 A. I don't know about their movements, how they were in the period

15 of end of May/beginning of June. And I -- as I said, I moved on my own,

16 so I don't know where the other members went.

17 Q. Did you never see them the whole time you were in Kosovo from the

18 28th of May/beginning of June, right the way through to, let us say, the

19 end of August? Did you not see them at all, yourself?

20 A. Yes, I did see them in July in Berisha, where the house was, and

21 there were guards there.

22 Q. I see. And you also saw them, I think, in mid-July because some

23 of them came to Jablanica, you told us, with you?

24 A. Before going to Jablanica, I saw them. So I went to Berisha and

25 then I went to Jablanica.

Page 3286

1 Q. Did some of them come to Jablanica with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did they travel with their own dedicated protection unit, or

4 did you use the services of the local villages in the areas you were

5 coming across, to guide you from one place to another?

6 A. As far as I remember, the movement of the General Staff to

7 Jablanica was escorted by a number of guards, but they were part of the

8 Berisha unit.

9 Q. The Berisha unit. You mentioned you had seen them in Berisha.

10 They were staying were they -- just so we're clear, Berisha is in the

11 mountains area, isn't it? It's nowhere near Drenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So in mid-July you'd seen them in the Berisha area where there

14 was a local KLA unit. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were they all together when you saw them in the Berisha area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then you told us that they were accompanied to Jablanica by a

19 group of soldiers from the Berisha area. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can I put it to you this way: Were they borrowing the soldiers

22 from the Berisha unit to take them to Jablanica?

23 A. I don't know what you mean by "borrowing," but that was the unit

24 that was guarding the General Staff there and that was the unit that

25 escorted the General Staff to Jablanica as well -- a security unit.

Page 3287

1 Q. Where were they staying in Berisha?

2 A. At the time, this was a private home close to the Berisha village

3 in the Berisha Mountains.

4 Q. I want to put two specific propositions to you, which I think

5 you've confirmed both in witness statements and in testimony you've given

6 in the past. First of all, whatever the General Staff might have wished

7 the position to be, zone commanders did not require or generally obtain

8 the approval of anybody in the General Staff to engage in combat

9 operations during this period, did they?

10 A. I don't know about this particular period. I can speak about the

11 July period.

12 Q. Well, taking the period from the beginning of June through to the

13 middle of July, I want to suggest to you -- and I have in mind, for

14 example, paragraph 14 of your November 2005 statement, where you say that

15 in practice zone commanders did not require the approval of the General

16 Staff to engage in combat operations. Is that right?

17 A. As far as I know, not in that period, no.

18 Q. All right. So that we're clear then. So the General Staff were

19 not directing military activity of KLA units during the period we're

20 concerned with between the end of May and middle of July --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulties with the way in which you

24 reflect paragraph 14. You said: "In practice they did not require ..."

25 "Require" is a normative expression; "in practice" is a factual

Page 3288

1 expression. Paragraph 14, in my view, clearly states what was the norm

2 and what was done in practice, and to mix -- to mix the two of them up is

3 not something that further clarifies the issue.

4 It talks about, in theory, what they had to obtain and what, in

5 practice, they did obtain -- whether they did obtain. If you would

6 replace the word "require" by "obtain" in your question, then I would

7 have no problems anymore.

8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm looking --

9 JUDGE ORIE: You said: "In practice they did not require ..."

10 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry. I was just looking at the question to

11 clarify --

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's paragraph 32 -- page 32, line 2: "In

13 practice zone commanders did not require" --

14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm sorry, I was looking at the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "did not request," then I would be

16 less --

17 MR. EMMERSON: I think we need to be clear as to who is requiring

18 whom to do what, so let me put it this way.



21 Q. The General Staff would have preferred the position to be a

22 situation in which they were giving the orders for combat operations.

23 That would have been the preference of the General Staff, wouldn't it?

24 Simply answer that question first.

25 A. I don't understand the question.

Page 3289

1 Q. Well --

2 A. If you could repeat it, please.

3 Q. You've used certain language in your statements, and I want to

4 clarify what it means. You've - and I'll just read you the exact

5 passage - you've said -- you've said this:

6 "At the time, in order to carry out important combat operations,

7 the forces on the ground, in theory, had to obtain the approval of the

8 General Staff; however, in practice this was not happening. Until late

9 1998, it is an obvious fact that more power laid in the hands of the zone

10 commanders than in the hands of the General Staff."

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now -- again, so that we're clear about the position, the -- when

13 you say "in theory" combat operations had to be authorised, what do you

14 mean by that, "in theory" they had to be authorised? Who decided that in

15 theory, they had to be authorised by the four men travelling around

16 Kosovo that you've described?

17 A. Well, of course the decision would have to be made by the

18 General Staff possibly.

19 Q. Well, there wasn't any constitution at this stage that this

20 General Staff had authority to issue instructions, was there?

21 A. I don't know about that period, whatever -- what they had or

22 didn't have. I can only speak about the period after July.

23 Q. I mean, when you say in that statement that they were in theory

24 required, that is to say, that combat operations were in theory required

25 to have the authorisation of the General Staff, on what do you base that

Page 3290

1 suggestion?

2 A. I base that suggestion on my knowledge that I have of proper

3 armies, how they function, that the personnel have to act upon orders

4 that are issued or approved by the General Staff.

5 Q. But this wasn't a proper army, was it, Mr. Zyrapi, at this point

6 in time?

7 A. No. At that time it wasn't a proper army, a regular army. It

8 was an army that was under development.

9 Q. Exactly so. Maybe there would come a time when combat operations

10 would be authorised by the General Staff, but at this point it was not

11 the practice anywhere in Kosovo for any combat operations to be

12 authorised by the General Staff in advance, was it?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. So there may be an implicit suggestion in that paragraph that

15 there was something improper about combat operations taking place without

16 the authorisation of the General Staff, or that might be one reading of

17 the paragraph. But I'm asking you to clarify, from the last answer that

18 you've given, that the position in practice on the ground between the end

19 of May and, let us say, the end of July or, indeed, the end of August --

20 so, for clarification, the end of May to the end of August, is that no

21 combat operations were ever authorised in advance by any of the four

22 individuals describing themselves as members of the General Staff?

23 A. I don't know about the periods in question, whether they were

24 authorised or not. So I'm speaking about until July 1998. I don't know.

25 Q. Very well. So you're -- the answer that you gave to us a moment

Page 3291

1 ago, where you agreed with me that no combat operations were authorised

2 by the General Staff in advance, relates to the period from the end of

3 May to July. Is that correct?

4 A. The answer I gave at the time was in general. For the period

5 July/August, I know that not every operation was authorised.

6 Q. I'm sorry, we do need a little more clarity to this. I asked you

7 a few moments ago to confirm that in the period we were considering from

8 the end of May onwards, it was not the practice anywhere in Kosovo for

9 any combat operations to be authorised by the General Staff in advance;

10 and you said: "Yes, that is correct."

11 Now, first of all, was that statement correct in respect of the

12 period from the end of May to the middle of July?

13 A. When I said that, it was a general statement, not simply about

14 the period May-July. This was an answer that comprised my knowledge

15 about the period until September.

16 Q. Very well. So taking the general position from May until

17 September, can you confirm for us, please, that combat operations were

18 not authorised in advance by the General Staff anywhere in Kosovo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. And again, can you confirm, please, that there was no

21 regular communication between the General Staff members and either the

22 zone commanders or the lower levels of command?

23 A. As far as I remember, from July onwards there weren't regular

24 communications between the General Staff and the zone commanders.

25 Q. You say "from July onwards ...," can I be clear, does that answer

Page 3292

1 apply from May to the end of September or only from July?

2 A. I don't know about the earlier period, whether they met or how

3 they met. I'm only speaking about the period where I -- when I was there

4 until September.

5 Q. All right. I'm sorry, there is some confusion in your answer.

6 You were there from the end of May, and I'm asking you about the period

7 from the end of May to September. In general, can you please confirm

8 that from the end of May to September, there was no regular communication

9 between the four individuals styling themselves members of the

10 General Staff and either the zone commanders or any of those operating at

11 a lower level in the village defences?

12 A. There weren't any regular meetings.

13 Q. And I think communication, generally, was difficult, wasn't it,

14 between those four individuals and any of the commanders?

15 A. Could you repeat the question again, please?

16 Q. I'm sorry. In practical terms, it was difficult for any forms of

17 communication to take place with the four members of the General Staff

18 who were in Kosovo?

19 A. Yes, it was very difficult to communicate at the time.

20 Q. And just so that I can understand how the General Staff made its

21 decisions, if it was making decisions, half of them were in Tirana; four

22 of them were in Kosovo; and one, you've told us, was shuttling backwards

23 and forwards. As far as you know, did they ever meet together to make

24 decisions about anything during this period?

25 A. During this period, I don't think the members of the staff could

Page 3293

1 get together in regular meetings --

2 Q. I mean --

3 A. -- and make decisions.

4 Q. So based on your experience -- I mean, a lot of the remarks that

5 you make about how armies behave are based perfectly, properly on your

6 experience of operating within an army. But to call this body a

7 General Staff when it isn't meeting together and making decisions, has no

8 effective authority to authorise combat operations, can't communicate

9 with the commanders in the field, and is moving around from private house

10 to private house, I mean, that's not a General Staff, Mr. Zyrapi, in any

11 meaningful sense of the word, is it, at this period of time?

12 A. In the period we're talking about, part of the staff was inside

13 Kosovo, another part was outside Kosovo. So it was very difficult to

14 come together and have unified decisions.

15 Q. It wasn't functioning as a General Staff in the sense in which

16 that term is understood within military structures that you've previously

17 been involved within regular armies, is it?

18 A. Yes, of course, it wasn't functioning in the proper sense of the

19 word. In normal armies, the General Staff would have the possibility to

20 contact the troops and the commanders. But this was an army that was

21 still a fledgling army, under development. So there wasn't a possibility

22 to do all those things.

23 Q. Well, that's exactly what I want to ask you because that word

24 "fledgling" has been used by another military witness. Your job when you

25 came in was to try and get some organisation together of what was

Page 3294

1 happening on the ground. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the reality of the position on the ground, can you confirm

4 this for me, is that there were pockets of people with guns who were

5 calling themselves the KLA, organised primarily around villages

6 initially?

7 A. Yes, during my visit. Yes.

8 Q. And very often the man who had been the mayor of the village or

9 the village leader would be elected as the KLA commander for that

10 village. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, there have been such cases.

12 Q. I mean, it was quite common, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes, for the period I have knowledge of, yes.

14 Q. And people would get together what scraps of uniform they could

15 and any weapons they either had or could smuggle in from Albania and try

16 to call themselves an army, at this point?

17 A. For that period, yes.

18 Q. And then gradually over time in some areas, attempts were made to

19 put those villages together into a coordinated command?

20 A. Yes. I'm talking about the period from June, July, and onwards.

21 Q. Yes. And in fact, I'm going to suggest to you specifically that

22 it wasn't until the 23rd of June that anything which can properly be

23 called the Dukagjin Operational Zone came into existence by people coming

24 together and agreeing to be part of a Joint Command?

25 A. I don't know about the earlier period or about June. I'm

Page 3295

1 testifying here about the period from July onwards. It may have been as

2 you said, but I wasn't informed.

3 Q. But essentially, what you and others were trying to do was to

4 help these, essentially, spontaneous village groups come together and

5 organise and coordinate along some kind of structural lines that would

6 make sense as a cohesive force; is that right, during this time?

7 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. And I don't mean what I'm about to say unkindly, Mr. Zyrapi, but

9 will you please try to answer the question as objectively as possible.

10 Part of that process involved giving people grand-sounding names like

11 General Staff and chief of operations and logistics which were borrowed

12 from real armies but which had no relationship at all to the reality of

13 what was taking place on the ground?

14 A. For the period we are talking about, June/July, they were all in

15 place; but, as I said, the army was under development. Its structures

16 were under development.

17 Q. Yes. The specific suggestion I'm putting to you is that part of

18 the process of making these group of villages come together and look like

19 an army was giving people big-sounding titles, drawn from real armies,

20 like General Staff, when it reflected on the ground nothing that could

21 properly be called a General Staff, for example?

22 A. For the period I have a recollection of, it was called

23 General Staff. But if you compare that to a General Staff of a regular

24 army, of course the comparison wouldn't be proper because, as I said, it

25 would be an army under -- in a process of development.

Page 3296

1 Q. Finally on this, before we take a break, I'm going to just put it

2 to you one more time. Giving people titles was part of the process of

3 persuading them and the outside world that this could be brought together

4 and made to look like an army, wasn't it?

5 A. Its intention was to develop and grow and become a regular army

6 like any other army.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Would that be a convenient moment?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson, that would be.

10 We'll have a break, Mr. Zyrapi, but I'll first ask Madam Usher to

11 escort you out of the courtroom. We'll have a break of almost half an

12 hour.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I, as always, have some concerns about

15 the exhibits. I now see, referring to the November statement, that there

16 are a few annexes which are in Albanian. I'm specifically drawing your

17 attention to the documents --

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Annexes --

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- mentioned, for example, in -- well, several

20 paragraphs. For example, in 33 you find reference to a couple of

21 documents. I would say the last ones attached, they're all in Albanian.

22 Now, I do understand that English is the -- the English version of the

23 statement is the originally filed document, signed by the witness. The

24 attachments are, to some extent, in English but some of them are in

25 Albanian.

Page 3297

1 Now, if I look in the system, e-court system, then the

2 original -- the translation would be the Albanian translation, which

3 seems to be without attachments. That means that at least some of these

4 attached documents, the last ones, we have them in Albanian but not in

5 English. If the Chamber will have to evaluate this statement with the

6 attached documents, then of course the Chamber would very much prefer to

7 have them in English as well.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And I don't see them attached to the translated

10 version, or is this --

11 MR. DI FAZIO: I think they must have been removed inadvertently.

12 I can make arrangements for them to be -- for the Trial Chamber to be

13 provided with translations as well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that we have -- we have access to them.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I apologise for that. That won't be a

16 problem. We can do that fairly quickly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Because I see now that the translation is 16 pages,

18 whereas it seems that the -- no, 15 pages, whereas the original, which is

19 the English original, is 26 pages.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'll make sure that they -- they match

21 and --


23 MR. DI FAZIO: -- we'll send it out. I'll try and get that done

24 either by the end of today, if Your Honours please, or if not, would

25 tomorrow -- by tomorrow be okay?

Page 3298

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you finish the --

2 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll try and get it done --

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- witness, I would rather have it before the --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- witness leaves.

6 We'll have a break until five minutes past 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

8 [The witness takes the stand]

9 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.


12 Q. Just one or two further questions, if I may, on the

13 General Staff. I want to ask you some names, first of all, just to have

14 them clear on the record. Azem Syla, A-z-e-m S-y-l-a, was he the main

15 commander or the person describing themselves as the head of the

16 General Staff at the time when you entered Kosovo?

17 A. I learned this in July when I was appointed director of the

18 operational directorate of the General Staff. The name that -- Azem Syla

19 was the general commander of the staff.

20 Q. And if I can just put a number of other names to you and just

21 check with each of them that they were members of the group calling

22 themselves the General Staff at this point --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, of course we have paragraph 15 of the

24 November statement --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I understand.

Page 3299

1 JUDGE ORIE: Because what I heard until now is approximately the

2 same.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. EMMERSON: If I can do this briefly.

5 Q. Hashim Thaqi was one. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Rexhep Selimi?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Jakup Krasniqi?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sokol Bashota?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And Xhavit Haliti?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. They were all names that you knew as General Staff members?

16 A. There was also Kadri Veseli, whom I knew.

17 Q. Can you help me, did any of those individuals have any previous

18 military experience as officers in any army?

19 A. No, none of them had any military experience from being

20 previously officer in the army.

21 Q. So the General Staff, so-called, was made up of individuals with

22 no previous military experience?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And just to be clear, Azem Syla was a former university professor

25 from the University of Pristina. Is that right?

Page 3300

1 A. I don't know what he did in the past.

2 Q. I see. I'm going to suggest to you that Hashim Thaqi and

3 Rexhep Selimi were students?

4 A. This I don't know either.

5 Q. Do you --

6 A. I don't know what they were in the past or what they did.

7 Q. Did you know what any of them had done in the past?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Very well. And one other matter on an organisational topic. Can

10 you confirm that nobody within the KLA was ever paid a salary or a wage?

11 A. From what I know during the time I joined, they didn't get any

12 salaries, they weren't paid.

13 Q. And did that remain the position throughout?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, coming to you and your own involvement, when you arrived

16 you've told us that you were making visits to various villages and posts

17 to check on the way in which weapons were deployed and people were

18 organised. Is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And generally, is it fair to say that you encountered a poor

21 level of military organisation in those villages?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I want to put to you a passage of the evidence that you gave in

24 the Limaj case. I shall just read it because it's short but it's page

25 6834, line 21, and you're referring to the months of June and July 1998.

Page 3301

1 And you said this:

2 "At that time my visits were very short with every unit, and as

3 to how they were organised I don't have full knowledge, not only for that

4 particular area, which was Llapushnik, but for other areas as well."

5 Again, can I ask you to confirm that that is an accurate

6 reflection of your recollection?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. So you were moving around very quickly from place to place?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Spending sometimes no more than an hour or two in one place?

11 A. I don't remember how much time I spent.

12 Q. And there came a point, as you've told us, when you went to the

13 Dukagjini area and to Jablanica?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now, at this point, I want to pause in the narrative of your

16 involvement and to look at some of the documents that the Prosecution

17 have asked you to identify and comment upon that pre-date the period of

18 your arrival in Jablanica; in other words, that deal with the evolution

19 of the structures in that area during June and the early part of July.

20 MR. EMMERSON: So can I ask, please, first of all, that the

21 witness be handed a copy of the yellow file of documents, which I think

22 Your Honours already have on the desk.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We have received it on the desk. One moment,

24 please.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 3302

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I asked Madam Registrar to -- who has

2 assigned to many of the documents one -- out of the 141 already numbers,

3 to inform you and us about any document already in the system. So if you

4 would please announce clearly what the number is, the ID -- the document

5 identification so that Madam Registrar could tell us what number she has

6 provisionally assigned to that document.


8 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

9 MR. EMMERSON: I think if Your Honours cast an eye over the

10 index, for example, items 1, 2, and 3 --


12 MR. EMMERSON: -- where we have been aware that a document

13 identification number has already been assigned --


15 MR. EMMERSON: -- we have inserted that into the index.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that --

17 MR. EMMERSON: It may have come --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- but if it comes to other documents, then let's

19 see whether Madam Registrar -- and she'll certainly have a look at the

20 list, I take it, Madam Registrar, to find out already whether any --

21 MR. EMMERSON: Further documents have been entered.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- further provisional exhibit numbers have been

23 assigned.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Let me try to bring it up-to-date as of this

25 morning.

Page 3303

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


3 Q. The first document behind tab 1 which, I'll be corrected if I'm

4 wrong, has already been given Exhibit P126 is document identification

5 1D111033. The Albanian is Exhibit P126, and the English translation

6 1D111033 at 1037.

7 Now, first of all, Mr. Zyrapi, you -- if you look at the back of

8 that Albanian original, do you see the name "Kompjuteri"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is he there recorded as the minute-keeper?

11 A. Yes, he was the keeper of records.

12 Q. And we'll obviously see these rough minutes at various points in

13 similar handwriting. You've seen a number of documents in that

14 handwriting, I think. Is that right?

15 I'm sorry, you need to --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. So this is a document -- the minutes of a meeting

18 headed the 8th of June of 1998. There's just one small passage of that

19 that I wanted to ask you about. In the Albanian, can you see, please, at

20 the bottom of the front page a reference to Rastavica, which in the

21 English is two-thirds of the way down the front page? The way these are

22 organised is Albanian first, and English translation after the immediate

23 tab following.

24 MR. EMMERSON: So if Your Honours can follow it in the English.

25 Q. Can you see a reference to Rastavica there where it is recorded

Page 3304

1 that Banda e Madha has fallen. "They are trying to enter on foot and

2 dressed in our uniforms."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you become aware on your travels of occasions when Serb

5 forces were dressing in KLA uniforms?

6 A. Not in that period, and I have no information about this incident

7 because I wasn't there.

8 Q. Very well. I understand that. I'm asking you as a general

9 proposition whether that was something that you became aware of at any

10 time?

11 A. Yes, I became aware of it.

12 Q. So can you help us as to when you first heard of occasions on

13 which Serb forces would dress in KLA uniforms?

14 A. I don't recall the accurate time, but from the time I started,

15 that is, July onwards, I heard that they wore KLA uniforms.

16 Q. Sorry, you started, I think, at the end of May, Mr. Zyrapi,

17 rather than from July onwards. Isn't that correct?

18 A. I said at this period. I don't remember May. I never heard

19 about it in May, because at the end of May I entered Kosova.

20 Q. I'm sorry. Every now and again, you say "from when I started,

21 from July onwards." And I've understood your evidence to be that you

22 started inside Kosovo from the 28th of May. Is that right?

23 A. On the 28th of May, I entered Kosova, but I worked as an officer

24 of the operational directorate. But in July, I started to have broader

25 knowledge of things.

Page 3305

1 Q. So was it from July, then, that you began to hear accounts of

2 Serb forces wearing KLA uniforms?

3 A. Yes, if I remember right. Can't be very precise, but I do

4 remember that when I visited these zones, I heard such things.

5 Q. Thank you. If we could now turn behind tab --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Rightly, you have often insisted on trying to

9 explore the sources of knowledge of the witness --

10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you please do that, and also try to find

12 some more details about whether any specific incidents or of any specific

13 events having been brought to the attention of the witness.


15 Q. First of all, can you tell us, please, how you learnt about

16 occasions when Serb forces would wear KLA uniforms? Who told you? How

17 did you find out? Was it something you saw yourself?

18 A. I found out during the visits I made to the units, to the zones,

19 but also during fighting when I went to Rahovec, I saw with my eyes

20 Serbian units - I don't remember whether they were police or national --

21 or army units - they wore Albanian national caps, and they approached the

22 front line where the defence units of the KLA were.

23 Q. And apart from the incident you, yourself, saw, you've told us

24 that you learnt this when you were visiting different positions. Can you

25 help us. Who would have told you when you visited the positions about

Page 3306

1 Serb forces wearing KLA uniforms?

2 A. I don't remember for the moment.

3 Q. In general terms, would it have been other members of the KLA?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in general terms, would they be giving you these descriptions

6 of incidents that had occurred within their general areas?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And can you remember any -- apart from the Orahovac incident, can

9 you remember any other specific incidents when this was brought to your

10 attention, locations or dates or both?

11 A. I cannot remember the dates or places, but I do know that I was

12 informed, I heard of it.

13 Q. Very well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

15 Could you tell us, do you remember when during fighting, when you

16 went to Rahovec, when that exactly was that you personally observed Serbs

17 wearing Albanian national caps?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was when fighting had broken

19 out in Rahovec. When I arrived there from Dukagjin, when I organised the

20 Defence of the KLA positions from Rahovec in the direction of Malisheve,

21 this occurred. This is when I saw what I mentioned on the road to

22 Malisheve.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have a month or a date for that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was July, but I don't know the

25 exact date.

Page 3307

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


4 Q. I think just to be clear, you'd already told us when you left

5 Gllogjan you went to Jablanica and were called to Rahovec to witness the

6 fighting there. Is that right?

7 A. Yes, from Gllogjan I went to Jabllanice where Lahi Brahimaj was

8 waiting for me, and from there we went together to Rahovec --

9 JUDGE ORIE: That was the same occasion where you received

10 instructions from the General Staff to go there.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. Yes. And so that we're clear then, the occasion you personally

14 witnessed would have been in the middle of July?

15 A. I don't remember. It may have been in second half of July or the

16 end of July. Really, I don't remember the exact date when I saw that

17 happen.

18 Q. I want --

19 MR. EMMERSON: Does that --

20 Q. I want to then, to please, move to page -- tab 2 in this bundle

21 in the Albanian tab 3 -- sorry, tab 2 in the bundle, which has the

22 Albanian first and then the English. And for the record, the Albanian

23 should, I think, be Exhibit 1 -- P129. The English translation is

24 1D111033 at 1041.

25 Now, Mr. Zyrapi, again looking at the Albanian version, you can

Page 3308

1 see the same minute-taker, I think. Is that correct?

2 A. I can't see that is the same person.

3 Q. Very well. I won't make an observation about the handwriting in

4 those circumstances. Can you confirm that this is or records a meeting

5 of the Gllogjan staff at Gllogjan on the 13th of June? If you look at

6 the top of the document I think that's clear. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is written here that it's a meeting of the Gllogjan

8 staff.

9 Q. And if you look at the second page of the document and you find

10 the entry for HA, who I think appears to be somebody called H. Abazi,

11 according to the record of those who were present. The English

12 translation reads:

13 "From what I understand the first step would be

14 consolidation" --

15 MR. EMMERSON: For Your Honours, I'm looking at the bottom of

16 page 1 of the English translation.

17 Q. Just to repeat, HA says:

18 "From what I understand the first step would be consolidation.

19 The second is the creation of the subzone within the framework of the

20 Dukagjini Zone."

21 And then RH is recorded as replying, after a word that is

22 unintelligible:

23 "RH ... is in favour of coordination, of the creation of single

24 directing body. If we continue like this, with a multitude of staffs, it

25 will be difficult."

Page 3309

1 Do you see that passage?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. Now, in your April 2007 statement, page 12, third paragraph, I'm

4 going to read to you the comment that you made about that. You said

5 this, and I'm quoting:

6 "The document suggests that local headquarters operated

7 independently but were eager to coordinate and unite into larger zones.

8 The document contains a proposal to create a body or introduce other

9 forms of management of the newly united headquarters of villages. Such

10 meetings were common in many areas of Kosovo, and separate headquarters

11 which acted independently met to consider consolidation or the creation

12 of a leading body for various headquarters."

13 Pause there.

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


17 Q. Now, the passage I have just read to you is from your own

18 statement commenting on this document. Can I understand then from that,

19 Mr. Zyrapi, that you saw this document as an example of a phenomenon that

20 you had witnessed in other areas of village commands struggling in the

21 beginning of June, and this is the 13th of June, to try to come together

22 in some kind of coordinated command?

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And just to illustrate the point, if we look behind

25 tab 3 --

Page 3310

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, I'd like to -- Madam Registrar has

4 some observations to be made about what we find under tab 2, which is

5 P129. One minute, please.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar asks our attention for the

8 following, Mr. Emmerson. These minutes are a two-page document, and it

9 says: "English translation 1D11/1033," and that -- a translation is not

10 attached to this Albanian original and is, most likely, a part of 65 ter

11 document 147. So there is some confusion about the English translation

12 where it comes from exactly and whether it's not part of a larger

13 document. I'd like you to sort it out.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I know the answer.


16 MR. EMMERSON: And I'll be corrected from my right if I've got

17 this wrong. The Prosecution created a document which was a continuous

18 and single document of the translations of all of the documents that had

19 been put to Mr. Zyrapi. Therefore, in order to have it coherent, this is

20 an extract of what was a continuous translation of all of the documents,

21 and the document identification number I have given you, 1D111033 at 1041

22 is a Defence document identification of that collective transcript and of

23 the relevant page.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think the best solution would be to

25 have that specific page where we find a translation of this specific

Page 3311

1 document, that is the minutes from the meeting of the 13th of June, to

2 attach that to the original --


4 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that we have them together.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Physically, that's what we've done in the bundle.


7 MR. EMMERSON: In terms of the system, that's obviously something

8 that can be done and if that's most convenient, it could be done once the

9 evidence of the witness is concluded.


11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you for that explanation, Mr. Emmerson.

13 Please proceed.


15 Q. Now, behind tab 3 -- sorry, can I indicate I was about to move on

16 to a question which illustrates the point that you were making about the

17 fact that even within the Dukagjin Zone, there were at that time

18 different commands operating independently of one another. And I wanted

19 to just turn behind tab 3, please. You have, I think, there the Albanian

20 and we have the translation in this instance. This is Exhibit P128.

21 MR. EMMERSON: And I hope I'm right in saying that the English

22 translation for that one is directly linked on the system.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will check that.


25 Q. Now, can you confirm for us, Mr. Zyrapi, that this is an order

Page 3312

1 the previous day to the minute you've just looked at; namely, the 12th of

2 June, from a commander in Krushec?

3 Mr. Zyrapi, can I ask you to confirm that?

4 A. Yes, it's an order.

5 Q. And it's an order from a commander in Krushec; correct?

6 A. This says: "In accordance with the order issued by the Isniq

7 local staff to the defence staff in Krushec."

8 Q. And at the top left-hand document, could you translate that, the

9 very first line on the top left?

10 A. On the left, it says: "Krushec defence staff."

11 Q. So are we to understand, this is a document addressed to the

12 Krushec defence staff by the staff -- the local staff in Isniq?

13 A. From what I can see in this document, this is an order by the

14 local staff in Isniq sent to the Krushec defence staff.

15 Q. And just to be clear, you know the difference between Isniq and

16 Irzniq, don't you?

17 A. Yes. Irzniq is another village.

18 Q. Isniq is a little further north along the main road, isn't it?

19 A. Yes. If you go from Gjakove, then you take the western direction

20 towards Peje.

21 Q. Yes. It's south of Peje between Peje and Decane, isn't it,

22 Isniq?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Still within the Dukagjini area; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3313

1 Q. But here we have an order signed by a local commander, which I'm

2 sure you can confirm is not signed by Ramush Haradinaj?

3 A. This order is not signed by Ramush.

4 Q. I want to turn now then, please --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

7 JUDGE ORIE: If I on the system look at P128 and if I then click

8 on "source attachment translation" which is given a number 1D11/1057, if

9 I click on that, my screen remains completely empty. So please -- would

10 you please verify that the English translation is attached to it in the

11 system as well.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Ours doesn't, I'm afraid.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Oh. Then my computer is ...

14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15 MR. EMMERSON: It may be that -- I don't know, does Your Honour

16 have the B/C/S screen or the Albanian screen, rather than the English

17 screen?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you ask them for the translation, you

19 should get the other documents.

20 MR. EMMERSON: It certainly comes up when we click it on our

21 screen and I think the registry --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it -- it will be my problem. And please

23 proceed.


25 Q. Tab 4 now, if we can, please. This is a document which I want to

Page 3314

1 spend a little time on.

2 MR. EMMERSON: And can I indicate straight away, Your Honours,

3 because it will become clear in due course, that there are two versions

4 of the minutes of this particular meeting: a rough version which we're

5 looking at here, and then a more detailed typed version which I'm going

6 to need to pull up on the screen in a little while. But it's an

7 important meeting and it's worth, if I may say so, looking at both sets

8 of minutes, and I think the witness has looked at both sets of minutes in

9 the course of his statements.

10 Q. Now, first of all, Mr. Zyrapi, I want just to ask you, please, to

11 quickly familiarise yourself with that document. You've looked at it

12 before and you've commented on it before. It's a meeting - I suggest a

13 very important meeting - on the 23rd of June in which the Dukagjini

14 Operational Zone staff or the staff of the Dukagjini Operational Plain

15 was established.

16 A. Yes, I had a look at it.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, I want, if I may, to put some passages to you

18 from the translation. It's a little difficult for me to immediately find

19 their corresponding position in the Albanian because of the way it's set

20 out in the absence of line numbers, but I'm going to go through it in the

21 translation.

22 MR. EMMERSON: And if anybody wants to take a point about the

23 accuracy of the translation, I'm sure that they will do so. But it's a

24 Prosecution document, in any event.

25 And so for Your Honours can I use the English version.

Page 3315

1 Q. We just can see the date of this meeting, can you confirm that,

2 Mr. Zyrapi, at the very bottom of the page, the last line both on the

3 original and the translation records this as a meeting that took place in

4 Jablanica on the 23rd of June.

5 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

6 Q. All right. And I want to just read to you certain passages and

7 I'll give an indication to the Court which passages I'm referring to.

8 Starting on page 1, the first entry is:

9 "R. Haradinaj: Explained the organisational structure of the

10 areas of competence of the staff of the Dukagjin area, so far divided up

11 into six subzones. The purpose of the meeting: Coordinating

12 participation, exchanging experiences, organisation, a single command."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And just if you let your eye travel down a little further, you'll

16 find an entry against the name of Salih Veseli. Yes? Do you know who --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know who Salih --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm sorry. Do you know who Salih Veseli is?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us?

23 A. Salih Veseli was one of the officers of the former Yugoslav Army,

24 and when I went to the Dukagjin area in July, I met him there. He was

25 Chief of Staff of the operational zone of Dukagjin.

Page 3316

1 Q. So that was in the middle of July?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So just coming back to the 23rd of June, the entry against the

4 name Salih Veseli says this:

5 "The people who are closer are those that understand one another.

6 We have done something of great importance. No army has ever done" --

7 sorry, "has ever been" -- "no army that has ever been has done such a

8 thing."

9 Then this: "Some operations must be conducted. This can be done

10 while uniting forces and leaders."

11 And then a little further down, he says: "I think we must

12 re-organise."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. A little further down from that, there's an entry against the

16 name Major Salih, M-a-j-o-r S-a-l-i-h, where it says: "Major Salih read

17 out the order for mobilisation dated 15th June."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then the minute records him saying: "I am in favour of

21 forming an operational staff for the Dukagjin area so that we are in one

22 command under a single roof. If we combine forces, we will deliver a

23 powerful blow to the enemy."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3317

1 Q. And then there is an entry under the name of Rrustem Teta. Do

2 you see that?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Can you see a few lines down he says: "In my opinion," and the

5 words "in my opinion" are underlined. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. "In my opinion," he says, "there is little consolidation of

8 forces." Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And just a few lines further down, he makes this proposal:

11 "In order to proceed, we need coordination, a single command, in

12 order to go forward. The soldiers I see are happier. Today is not time

13 for ranks but only time to fight the enemy. We took a step forward when

14 we formed the Dukagjin Staff."

15 Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you remember I suggested to you earlier that there was

18 originally a much smaller Dukagjin Staff based around Gllogjan, and that

19 it wasn't until the 23rd of June that what became known as the Dukagjin

20 operational staff, expanding up to a wider area, was created. Do you

21 remember me suggesting that to you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Will you bear that suggestion in mind as we look through these

24 minutes because I'm going to suggest to you that what the minutes show is

25 that this is a meeting in which that much smaller organisation was

Page 3318

1 amalgamated with Jablanica into a single, much larger grouping, which

2 became known as the Dukagjin Plain Operational Zone. Yes?

3 So if I can just ask you to carry on with this, please. Can you

4 look a little further down to the next entry against the name

5 "Ramush Haradinaj"?

6 A. Are you talking about the third page?

7 Q. If you look -- the entry that we've just looked at under the name

8 "Rrustem Teta," do you have that, where he gives his opinion underlined?

9 The top of the third page is the passage I want to ask your attention to,

10 where the next entry against the name "Ramush Haradinaj" appears.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. First of all, he's recorded as saying this: "In order to help

13 one another" -- I'm sorry. "In order to help one other in future, we

14 have to supply the entire people with weapons, 16-year-olds and above."

15 Pausing there for a moment. I think you gave evidence in the

16 Milutinovic case that in relation to this particular line, that would

17 have been an impossibility. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. An ambitious objective, but not one that could ever conceivably

20 have been fulfilled because of the limit of weapons that were available

21 at the time. Is that right?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. This entry then goes on:

24 "Other things: We need to be positioned well, organised.

25 Friendly and family connections are not enough." I can as a -- "I can

Page 3319

1 help as a friend or a relative, but I cannot make someone else do the

2 same."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Again, was this something that you understood to be the position

6 at that time, that really it wasn't possible without some sort of central

7 command for orders to be issued that would be obeyed?

8 A. Yes, of course, it goes without saying.

9 Q. And just so that the Judges understand that. I mean, the people

10 who were members of the KLA on the ground, the people you'd been

11 visiting, many of them were farmers by day and might volunteer for the

12 KLA one day and be back on their farms the next. Is that right?

13 A. Yes. During that period, that was the case in some areas.

14 Q. So any difficult order that might be issued would be quite hard

15 to implement?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. Essentially, no commander could rely on the commitment of a group

18 of civilians who from time to time would pick up arms and man a

19 check-point, could they? They couldn't rely on them?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And I want to look now at the next entry against the name

22 "Nazmi." And I think you know Nazmi Brahimaj, don't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And we see him listed as one of those present at the meeting.

25 Nazmi Brahimaj is recorded as saying: "I fully support this," which, I

Page 3320

1 think, you will agree seems to be a reference to the proposal for the

2 creation of a single command.

3 "I fully support this." But then he says this: "The Dukagjin

4 Staff has presented us with a fait accompli but otherwise" - something -

5 "and we" are -- I'm sorry, "we were in agreement that day."

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. It's plain, is it not, that at that stage Brahimajs who were

9 based in Jablanica did not regard themselves as being part of the

10 Dukagjin Staff because he's referring to the Dukagjin Staff presenting

11 this meeting with a fait accompli?

12 A. I know Nazmi. He's from Jablanica. But I am not seeing here

13 whether it was earlier on part of that.

14 Q. I see. If you just drop down a few lines there's two entries

15 against the name of Ramush Haradinaj. And then there's an entry against

16 the name of Lahi, and it says: "We are in favour of ..." and then

17 "unanimously."

18 "Unanimously all are," and then some words crossed out, "in

19 favour of form -- and announcing the formation for the announcement of

20 the staff of the plain of Dukagjin."

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So I suggest to you that reading these minutes as a whole, what

24 we see is that first resolution that a single unified staff for the plain

25 of Dukagjin should be created there on the 23rd of June. Do you agree

Page 3321

1 with that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And the meeting then moves on to discuss the appointment of the

4 staff, and Salih, S-a-l-i-h, makes a proposal. Do you know -- I think

5 you've already told us you know who Salih Veseli is. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And so his proposal is that the staff should have a commander, a

8 deputy or assistant commander for morale and politics, a Chief of Staff,

9 an assistant for logistics, for intelligence, and counter-intelligence.

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that proposal appears to have been approved, do you see that,

13 immediately afterwards?

14 A. Yes, it does say so.

15 Q. And we then move on to the election of who those people should

16 be. Sorry. Pause for a moment.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


19 Q. We then move on in the meeting to the election of who those

20 people should be, and the next entry records Mr. Haradinaj suggesting,

21 and I quote:

22 "It would have been good if representatives of each of the

23 subzone staffs were recruited as members to the operational staff of

24 Dukagjin."

25 Then Nazmi is recorded as saying:

Page 3322

1 "People have to know what the operational zones are."

2 And then Salih Veseli is recorded as saying:

3 "I propose that the commander be a fighter who has been fighting

4 so far with success."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. And then Rrustem Teta makes the proposal:

8 "I propose Ramush Haradinaj ..."

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then a little lower down there's a reference to somebody

12 called Agron. Do you see that, just a couple of lines down, just

13 immediately after the entry you've just been looking at?

14 The line begins: "Agron," and then there is a colon. Do you see

15 that? You need to answer, I'm afraid, on the transcript, rather than

16 nodding. Do you see that passage?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Now, I'm going to --

19 A. I see it, I do.

20 Q. I'm going to suggest to you from the context that it becomes

21 clear, both in this minute and the other one of this meeting, that Agron

22 must be one of the members of the General Staff or at least a

23 representative of the General Staff. Was Agron a nickname that you were

24 familiar with or have ever been familiar with?

25 A. As far as I remember, I don't know of anyone called Agron in the

Page 3323

1 General Staff.

2 Q. I mean, of course, people don't always use their full names, do

3 they?

4 A. Yes. At that time, they mostly used nicknames.

5 Q. Did you ever hear of Rexhep Selimi using the nickname Agron?

6 A. No. To my recollection, his nickname was Dhjeteshi.

7 Q. Very well. Agron refers to Lahi and says: "Lahi was the

8 representative of the central staff of the plain of Dukagjin. Perhaps

9 this was a secret. The staff has been in existence from 1993 until now."

10 Can I ask you about this: As far as you understood it, was there

11 a period of time where even the commanders on the ground didn't know who

12 was in the General Staff?

13 A. I don't know about that period because I wasn't there.

14 Q. And then Mr. Haradinaj is referred to in the immediately

15 following entry:

16 "Commander Ramush: The central staff is not providing us with

17 the orders that we require; it is absent."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I think you've agreed that that's a pretty fair reflection of

21 the reality on the ground, don't you?

22 A. Yes, for that period in question.

23 Q. And the minute then moves to the process of election, electing

24 who should lead the command. Ramush proposes, as we see just a few lines

25 down, Ramush says:

Page 3324

1 "I am in favour of Lahi being commander; Salih Veseli, the

2 deputy; and Rrustem the assistant."

3 Do you see that? It's just about six lines further down.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So it appears that Ramush Haradinaj was nominating Lahi Brahimaj

6 as the commander of the zone; do you agree?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then Agron is recorded as saying:

9 "Draft what your views are and the KLA General Staff will respond

10 in two days."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then Salih Veseli says: "Who is in favour of Ramush as

14 commander, Lahi as deputy, Salih as Chief of Staff, and Rrustem as

15 deputy?"

16 Do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then a second proposal is put with the difference that Ramush

19 and Lahi change places. Do you see that immediately underneath?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then the votes of the commanders from the different areas are

22 recorded. For the first proposal, that is Ramush as commander:

23 "Jablanica, Reka in favour of Ramush, Baran valley."

24 Do you see that?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 3325

1 Q. And then for Lahi as commander: Gllogjan and Leshan valley. Do

2 you see that?

3 A. Leshan valley, yes.

4 Q. Yes. And Gllogjan?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you have a situation in which the Jablanica commands are

7 recommending that Ramush should be the commander, whilst the Gllogjan

8 command, including Ramush Haradinaj, are recommending that Lahi should be

9 the commander. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then the decision is recorded by a vote. It was decided by

12 vote that Ramush Haradinaj would be the commander, Lahi his deputy, Salih

13 the Chief of Staff - as you, yourself, said, I think - Rrustem the

14 deputy. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then immediately after that, Salih Veseli, who you've told us

17 had some past military experience, gave a clarification of what the tasks

18 of a commander would be. Do you see that, immediately underneath the

19 vote? It says: "Subsequently at a question by Ramush, Salih Veseli,"

20 and gave a professional clarification of the tasks of a commander, the

21 deputy, and Chief of Staff. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So it's clear, is it not, that this was a process of election,

24 first of all. Do you agree with that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3326

1 Q. Attended by villages which had been operating autonomously up

2 until then but are trying to come together in a single command?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It culminates in a vote in favour of Ramush Haradinaj as the

5 commander; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At which point, he immediately turns to one person who has

8 military experience and asks him, What should a commander do? What

9 should the roles and responsibilities be?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Now, I'm not going to go in the same detail into

12 the other record of this meeting, but it is right that Your Honours

13 should be aware of it.

14 Could we please bring up -- I'm sorry, just one moment - P142,

15 I'm told, is the reference for it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's not in your yellow binder, Mr. --

17 MR. EMMERSON: It's not, in fact, no, but it says -- it's -- I

18 think, first of all, could you -- could you just -- could I ask that the

19 usher scroll down gently at the witness's -- following the witness's eye,

20 just to give him an opportunity to familiarise himself with this

21 document.

22 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, it's not in the binder, I'm afraid. But if you could

23 look at it on the screen and then give the usher a nod every now and

24 again. And I don't need you to read every word, because it follows

25 exactly the same order as the minute we've just been looking at. It's in

Page 3327

1 somewhat greater detail.

2 MR. EMMERSON: And do Your Honours have the English translation

3 on the screen?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Actually, we have the original.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. The English translation is linked to

6 it, but they can't both be at the screen at the same time. Is that

7 right?

8 JUDGE ORIE: If they are properly linked, then, Mr. Emmerson,

9 we -- we have access in court to our own system.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Do Your Honours -- it might be helpful to have the

11 English version on the screen, because there were just two passages I --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's a matter of fact that I have it at

13 least on one of my screens at this moment. Yes.

14 So please proceed, even if --

15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Very well.

16 Q. This is -- this is a --

17 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if you might just put it down a little

18 bit.

19 Q. This is a much more detailed typed minute of the same meeting, I

20 think, Mr. Zyrapi, and you've, in fact, looked at it before. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct, it's the minutes of meeting.

23 Q. I simply want to ask you about two points, please -- I'm sorry,

24 three points altogether. Much of the language is the same, although it

25 is more detailed in places.

Page 3328

1 MR. EMMERSON: Could we turn, please, on the English translation

2 to page 2, and in the Albanian to the first reference to the name of

3 Nazmi, which should be on -- at the bottom of page 2 of the Albanian

4 version, just so that we can see a slightly clearer record of what Nazmi

5 was saying.

6 Q. Do you see that at the bottom there? Our translation of that

7 reads, and this is following the proposal for the creation of a single

8 staff: "I fully agree with this, yet the Dukagjini Staff has placed

9 before us a done deal, otherwise I agree."

10 Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And then a little further down --

13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. If we could just turn to the second

14 page -- sorry, the following page of the Albanian. In the English, it's

15 just a little further down on page 2.

16 Q. In heavy type, do you have there: "It was unanimously decided

17 and the formation of the Dukagjin Plain Operative Staff was proclaimed."

18 Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And if we go to the next bullet -- heavy bullet point there.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Which in our English translation is at the top of

22 page 3, but it appears on the screen that we have it in the Albanian.

23 Q. The next decision: "Unanimously decided for the staff to have

24 its commander, deputy-commander, assistant for morale and politics, Chief

25 of Staff, logistics assistant, and assistant for intelligence and

Page 3329

1 counter-intelligence."

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. And then you have the same process of election nomination -- or

5 rather, nomination and election taking place. And at the very end,

6 please --

7 MR. EMMERSON: Could we -- could we go to the very end of this

8 minute. So it's the -- page 4 of the English translation and page 3 of

9 the Albanian translation.

10 I think that's still not the right page of the Albanian -- I'm

11 sorry, it is correct page of the Albanian translation. I apologise.

12 Page 4 of the English translation. The last decision is the appointment

13 of ten people for different military branches of service in the Dukagjin

14 area.

15 Q. And then Agroni again: "I would like to explain that you can be

16 called the Dukagjini Plain Local Operative Staff, taking into

17 consideration the KLA division into zones."

18 Following which there is an entry against the name Smajl,

19 S-m-a-j-l, and I think you said before that that is a name that you knew

20 Mr. Haradinaj as; is that correct? That's your evidence?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. "We should see if there is a possibility to re-define operative

23 zones since the Dukagjin Staff encompasses a larger surface than the

24 local staff."

25 Is that right?

Page 3330

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, despite that meeting having taken place on the 23rd of June,

3 you've told us that in the middle of July, the area to the west of the

4 Peje to Gjakove road was still not incorporated into the zone. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes, as far as I remember, that's why I went there to that zone.

7 Q. Now, you gave evidence about this minute in the Milutinovic case,

8 Mr. Zyrapi, and I'm --

9 MR. EMMERSON: For the record, the reference is 5939, lines --

10 lines 5 and following.

11 Q. And you said this: "In this document you can see that the staff

12 of the operational area of Dukagjin is being formed."

13 And then a little later, you said: "This has to do with the

14 development of the Dukagjini Staff, and later on they speak about how the

15 command of the operational zone would look like in the future."

16 Again, can I ask you to confirm that that was your evidence and

17 understanding?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, there's one thing that's not entirely

20 clear to me yet, and let me ask the witness.

21 We earlier saw the line where Nazmi in this 23rd of June meeting

22 says: "I fully agree with this, yet the Dukagjini Staff has placed us

23 before a done deal, otherwise I agree."

24 It looks as if the Dukagjini Staff imposes its will on the

25 formation of what now, as I understand, will be the Dukagjini Operational

Page 3331

1 Zone.

2 Now, who then exactly was the Dukagjini Staff that could impose

3 its will on those present? I see that they come from different areas. I

4 see Jablanica, Reka, Baran valley, Gllogjan, Leshan valley. Who then

5 exactly is the Dukagjini Staff that presents, as it's called, a "done

6 deal"?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how things were at

8 this period, but from what I see here, it's Dukagjin Operational Staff,

9 which in this case is represented by Gllogjan.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So what you say is it's actually the Gllogjan Staff

11 which then enlarges the area, the operational area, to other areas as

12 well, but what is here called the Dukagjini Staff, you said is the

13 Gllogjan Staff. Is that correctly understood?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After meetings held even earlier

15 and documents were looked at, there were meetings with other staffs, with

16 other village staffs, and the villages started to merge into a command, a

17 single command. This is at least what I guessed from these documents

18 because I wasn't there at that time.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're interpreting the documents, but was

20 this meeting on the basis of equality with the others or was the

21 Dukagjini Staff or, as you said that was actually the Gllogjan Staff,

22 were they imposing their will on the other village staffs as well.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we are talking about this

24 meeting, there are other staffs present apart from Dukagjin, like Leshan

25 and other villages. They have come together there to make a decision on

Page 3332

1 the formation of an operational staff of Dukagjin.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was that a merger or was that expanding

3 power over other village staffs? I'm trying to understand what exactly

4 the Dukagjini Staff has imposed or, as it says, "has placed us before a

5 done deal," which suggests that the Dukagjini Staff had a final say in

6 what would happen.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I see here, it was a

8 merger of local staffs into a single command. I don't know what he means

9 by what he says here, because I wasn't there present to give you an

10 accurate representation of this.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, this raised the issue of whether this

12 witness is telling us on what happened at the time or whether he

13 interprets for us --


15 JUDGE ORIE: -- the documents.

16 MR. EMMERSON: I'm going to ask that he remove his headphones so

17 I can address Your Honour, if I may.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you speak any English? Do you understand any

19 English?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A little.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Do you speak any French?

22 MR. EMMERSON: Not sufficient. I mean, I'm not overly

23 concerned -- if the witness removes his headphones.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you, please, take off your headphones. Yes.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm slightly surprised by the way that Your Honour

Page 3333

1 characterised that entry in the questions that you've put to the witness

2 because what is clear from a reading of these minutes as a whole is that

3 all zones were represented and the decision to create a single

4 over-arching zone was unanimously decided by all of them. And so, Your

5 Honour, several times, used the expression was the Dukagjin Staff

6 imposing its will, by reference to the fact that Nazmi Brahimaj is

7 recorded as saying that a done deal had been placed before them, and of

8 course, Nazmi Brahimaj would have been a representative of one area,

9 namely Jablanica -- or one of the people present, rather, from Jablanica.

10 But reading these minutes as a whole, it is our submission, quite plain,

11 that this was a democratic decision taken -- and an election in which far

12 from there being an imposed will, the Gllogjan command proposed a

13 representative from Jablanica to be the commander and vice versa.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your surprise, but at the same time

15 it was not without reasons that I put the question and that I not --

16 let's leave it for the time being.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I have put the questions to the witness. I might

19 have additional questions at a later stage.

20 MR. EMMERSON: The other matter I just wanted to clarify, if I

21 could, with Your Honour briefly, is this. Your Honour may recall from

22 the Defence pre-trial brief - and I touched upon it briefly, very briefly

23 in opening - that the Defence case is that at the end of May there was

24 the formation of a small group of villages coming together calling

25 themselves the Dukagjin Staff in the area around Gllogjan. And that it

Page 3334

1 was at the 23rd of June that an attempt was made to create the

2 operational plain, which then incorporated both Jablanica on the east

3 and, in theory, Junik and the areas on the west of the road. So I just

4 wanted to make that clear --

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. That's clear. Please proceed.

6 The witness has his ears -- his earphones on again. Please

7 proceed.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.

9 Q. I wonder if you could look now behind tab 5. This -- it does

10 not, I think, yet have an exhibit number -- oh, it doesn't apparently

11 now. It's Exhibit P145 I'm told?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're now referring to the provisionally

13 assigned numbers by Madam Registrar, so we'll come to that later. It's

14 145.

15 Please proceed.


17 Q. I just want to look at the level of military sophistication that

18 followed that meeting in -- on the 23rd of June so that we have a sense

19 of the attempts that were then being made to introduce some military

20 organisation. This is a minute of the newly formed Dukagjini Operative

21 Staff the following day, the 24th of June, with everybody now with their

22 ranks or positions recorded. And if we just look after the agenda, you

23 see the seven agenda points there, Mr. Zyrapi. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There's then an introduction by Ramush Haradinaj in the minutes.

Page 3335

1 Ramush Haradinaj said that:

2 "Information regarding our forces and the forces of the enemy

3 should be gathered. The enemy forces in Decane up to 200 men in

4 strength."

5 And then a little further down, just two lines down, the Chief of

6 Staff, Mr. Veseli, begins to explain the idea of military planning and

7 systemisation and the assaulting operations that should be undertaken.

8 And do you see that there's then an entry that says the Chief of Staff

9 then continued with the presentation of a training plan? Do you see

10 that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then there are various things listed that might be included

13 within a training plan. And do you see about five bullet points down:

14 "Five full hours soldier in attack"? Do you see that entry?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Just to get some idea of the military sophistication of

17 this -- just going over the page. First of all: "Prepare them yourself

18 or recall things. One tactical suggestion at once. Sir, the enemy is

19 attacking from this direction. Work on soldiers' behaviour during an

20 artillery attack. What a soldier does during an artillery attack."

21 And then this:

22 "Runs a hundred metres as fast as possible. Relocates himself

23 until he receives correction. Repeat the hundred metres five times.

24 Stop the column and analyse it."

25 Now, pausing there, it seems, does it not, that the training is

Page 3336

1 going to involve the suggestion that in the event of an artillery attack,

2 you run as far as you can as fast as you can?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is that one of the features of being a fledgling guerilla

5 organisation rather than a proper army? Would you see a direction to

6 soldiers to run as far as they could and as fast as they could in the

7 instructions in a proper army?

8 A. This -- these things are taught also in a regular army.

9 Q. Does a regular army have the ability to fire back at artillery

10 positions?

11 A. Yes, it does.

12 Q. At this stage in June, the KLA in Dukagjin had no ability to fire

13 back at Serbian artillery, did they?

14 A. As far as I know, no.

15 Q. Thank you. I now want to move a little further in time to one or

16 two events that occurred shortly before you arrived. Could you look

17 behind tab 6, first of all?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, tab 6 is P161 provisionally assigned

19 number.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MR. EMMERSON: And with a translation, I think, linked to it.

23 Q. This document, Mr. Zyrapi, is dated the 4th of July and signed by

24 Ramush Haradinaj. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3337

1 Q. And it is a reprimand to Lahi Brahimaj. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it reads as follows:

4 "Following our request for a working meeting that due to your

5 absence from the zone of responsibility to which you belong, failed to

6 take place twice in a row, we address to you this reprimand from us,

7 requesting you to carry out your work faithfully. We ask for this

8 behaviour not to be repeated."

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then if you could just turn behind the following tab, tab 7?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 7 is P168, provisionally assigned.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

14 Q. There is then, do you agree, an order dated the following day,

15 the 5th of July, signed by Ramush Haradinaj. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Discharging Lahi Brahimaj from his position as deputy commander

18 and appointing Nazmi Brahimaj in his place. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So on the face of it, it appears that Lahi Brahimaj was deputy

21 commander in all for a period of about two weeks, would you agree,

22 slightly less than two weeks?

23 A. From these documents, yes, you're right.

24 Q. Now, I want to ask you in the light of that about a comment that

25 you made in your November 2005 statement at paragraph 19. I'll just read

Page 3338

1 it into the record. You said: "Brahimaj," and you were referring then

2 to Lahi Brahimaj, "Brahimaj had previously been the commander of the

3 Dukagjini Zone, but the majority of the General Staff agreed that he was

4 not up to the task and that RH was better suited to the job. Brahimaj

5 was thus given a job in the General Staff as director of the finance

6 department, and what could normally be seen as a promotion in a regular

7 army was, in fact, a demotion."

8 Do you see that? That was the -- that's a -- me reading to you a

9 passage from your 2005 witness statement. Do you understand?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. There are a number of things about that I want to suggest to you

12 that are not entirely accurate as a summary. First of all, you say in

13 that statement that Lahi Brahimaj had previously been the commander of

14 the Dukagjini Zone, but the majority of the General Staff thought that

15 Ramush was better suited to the job.

16 Now, first of all, do you accept now that Lahi Brahimaj was

17 never, in fact, commander of the Dukagjini Zone, but for two weeks was

18 deputy commander?

19 A. I gave the statement on the basis of what I heard when I took the

20 task, but I'm not saying that I was present there and that I had proper

21 information about everything that happened before that.

22 Q. No. But it's very important, you understand, Mr. Zyrapi, if

23 you're giving this Tribunal evidence about command structures and who was

24 responsible to whom, that you don't say things in witness statements

25 about who was answerable to whom at a particular time if you don't know

Page 3339

1 that that was the position. And there's a categorical statement in your

2 2005 witness statement that Lahi Brahimaj had been commander of the

3 Dukagjini Zone, and I think you now accept that that statement is wrong;

4 correct?

5 A. I gave the statement in 2005 based on what I was informed when I

6 took over my duty as director of the operational directorate by the

7 staff.

8 Q. So you told us -- or you confirmed for me a little while ago that

9 your visits to all these areas were very short and that, as you had said

10 in previous testimony, your understanding of the command structures and

11 who was responsible to who was incomplete. Is that a fair assessment of

12 the position?

13 A. Yes, especially in the case of Dukagjin Zone.

14 Q. Exactly so. And you've given some evidence today on oath to the

15 Tribunal about who was in command of whom and which units in the

16 Dukagjini Zone when you visited. Do we understand the same comment

17 applies to that, that you could be mistaken about some of the evidence

18 you've given?

19 A. If we are talking about my testimony that Lahi was a commander, I

20 have stated in my statement that this is what I was informed of by the

21 staff; namely, that he was a commander in the past.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the question of Mr. Emmerson, Mr. Zyrapi,

23 is the following: In your statement, it says he was the commander, now

24 you say that's what they told me, whether that was true or not now. Now,

25 what Mr. Emmerson asks you is whether the limited knowledge you gained

Page 3340

1 during your short visits, whether that could have caused similar mistakes

2 in respect of other parts of your statement?

3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.


5 MR. HARVEY: I hesitate to interrupt. It's not my turn yet. But

6 I have noticed there's a very, very subtle distinction and it may be an

7 important one. The witness used the expression he learned that

8 Lahi Brahimaj was "a commander." Indeed, in his original interview with

9 the OTP, he used the expression "a commander." That got itself

10 translated into his original statement as "the commander," and it may

11 well be that this is the source of the confusion. I hope that may help

12 to clarify matters a little.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This, of course --

15 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- now we have to clarify this.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it doesn't really clarify the particular

18 point I'm asking about, because what in the statement he says is Brahimaj

19 had previously been the commander of the Dukagjin -- leaving that aside,

20 he then goes on to say that the majority of the General Staff agreed that

21 he was not up to the task, and RH was better suited to the job. In other

22 words, the suggestion is, in the statement, that the General Staff

23 decided that the job that Mr. Haradinaj subsequently did was one that

24 Mr. Brahimaj was not up to and that does not seem to be in accordance

25 with any of the material that we've looked at.

Page 3341

1 JUDGE ORIE: I would say give it some thought over the break,

2 Mr. Emmerson. We need a break anyhow at this moment.

3 We'll resume at five minutes past 1.00, but before adjourning,

4 could we hear from you how much more time you would need? Because

5 yesterday I praised the Prosecution for staying in the time-limits, where

6 I usually praise the Defence for doing so, it seems now to be a bit

7 different.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I rather thought that our time was not under

9 huge pressure because of the structure -- in terms of sitting times

10 because of the structure of the week. But I mean, I shall certainly

11 finish in the next session. I would like to say I'll finish in about

12 half an hour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but even then other counsel need time for

14 cross-examination as well, there might be some questions from the Judges,

15 so time pressure starts building up already. But -- so, therefore, you

16 are advised -- all Defence counsel and Prosecution is advised that never

17 start from the position that time pressure is any less because it's

18 constantly there.

19 We'll resume at five minutes past 1.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 12.43 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.


24 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I just want to conclude that question -- that line of

25 questioning with you very briefly. The passage from your witness

Page 3342

1 statement that I put to you could create the impression that it was the

2 General Staff who had made the decision as to who should be the

3 commander, and the General Staff who had removed Lahi Brahimaj from the

4 position. Do you accept, having now looked at the records, that the

5 decision as to who should be commander and deputy commander of the

6 Dukagjini Plain Operational Zone was taken by democratic decision, made

7 by the representatives of the villages of the area rather than a decision

8 imposed by the General Staff?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please.


11 MR. DI FAZIO: The problem with that question is that this

12 witness says that he doesn't know, he wasn't there. So he's being

13 asked -- if --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Mr. Emmerson puts to the witness that on the

16 basis of this document is, Has your opinion changed or --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we are not asking the witness to make

18 any inferences from the document. Let's ask whether he has any knowledge

19 about --

20 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm sorry, I'm challenging the suggestion in

21 his statement that it was a decision made by the General Staff.

22 Whether --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ask him how he knows that and when it took

24 place, rather than to ask him to make -- to draw conclusions on the basis

25 of the document because you referred him to the document as support

Page 3343

1 for --


3 JUDGE ORIE: -- what has happened at any time. Please put the

4 question in more factual terms than this.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

6 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, is it your evidence that the decision as to who

7 should be the zone commander and the deputy zone commander is a decision

8 that was made by the General Staff or not?

9 A. As I stated then, I was told and explained the things that I said

10 in the statement. But I was not given details about how that happened.

11 Q. And who told you?

12 A. As far as I remember, it was Rexhep Selimi and other members of

13 the staff who told me.

14 Q. Do you know how they knew what the workings of the meeting had

15 been?

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. Similarly, as to the removal of Lahi Brahimaj, is it your

18 evidence that that was a decision taken by the General Staff?

19 A. I don't know about that. When I went and joined the

20 General Staff, I found him there.

21 Q. But you don't know one way or the other whether the decision to

22 remove him was a decision made by Ramush Haradinaj or by the

23 General Staff?

24 A. I don't know about it.

25 Q. Very well. I want to turn now to - and reasonably briefly - to

Page 3344

1 the visit that you paid to Gllogjan in mid-July. Can I understand, first

2 of all, that was the first time you'd been to anywhere in the Dukagjini

3 region during 1998. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The second occasion, I think you told us, was sometime in August.

6 Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And apart from those two occasions, were you in Dukagjin at all

9 during the -- during 1998?

10 A. As far as I remember, no.

11 Q. And the visit in July involved one day in Jablanica, one day in

12 the Gllogjan area, and one day east of the main road. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, in your April 2 --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Just to correct the transcript, I'm sure it's a --

16 just a minor matter, but it -- the area is west, I think.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, you're quite right. I think it was me that

18 was in error. One day west of the main road.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


21 Q. In your April 2007 statement at paragraph 29, you say this, and I

22 quote: "Towards the end of June or early July, I heard that

23 Ramush Haradinaj was commander of the Dukagjini Operational Zone."

24 As far as you can now recall, was it, in fact, at the end of June

25 or early July that you first heard that he had been appointed as

Page 3345

1 commander of the Dukagjini Operational Zone?

2 A. As far as I remember, that was the period. I'm not sure whether

3 it was the end of one month or the beginning of the other, but that's the

4 period when I heard about it.

5 Q. Thank you. And by the time you went to Jablanica in mid-July,

6 Lahi Brahimaj had already been removed from his position as

7 deputy commander, is that correct, as far as you understood the position?

8 A. When I went there mid-July, Lahi was member of the General Staff.

9 Q. That wasn't my question. He was no longer the deputy commander

10 of the Dukagjini Plain Operational Zone by that time?

11 A. When I made that visit, he was member of the General Staff.

12 Q. Could you answer my question, Mr. Zyrapi? By the time you made

13 that visit, he was not deputy commander of the zone, was he?

14 A. To my recollection, that's correct, he wasn't.

15 Q. Now, you conducted a tour around the area in Jablanica on the

16 occasion of that first day. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you looked at various positions in the village. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And can I ask you to confirm a passage from the evidence that you

22 gave in the Milutinovic case at page 6239, line 7, where you said that:

23 "During the time I visited the positions and the units in that area, I

24 didn't come across a detention facility."

25 Is that correct?

Page 3346

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about the second day, if I

3 may, and the time that you spent in the area around Gllogjan. First of

4 all, in your April 2007 statement, at paragraph 37, and also in your 2005

5 statement, at paragraph 23, you list the names of certain individuals who

6 you say were commanders in particular villages. So, for example, you

7 suggest that Driton Zeneli was a subzone commander in Jablanica, and you

8 suggest that Maliq Ndrecaj was a subzone commander in Prilep.

9 I want to suggest to you that you are wrong about that

10 information and that, for example, at the time of your visit, those two

11 individuals -- Driton Zeneli, first of all, was based in Gllogjan and not

12 in Jablanica; and Maliq Ndrecaj was the subzone commander for Carabreg

13 and not for Prilep. Is it possible that you could be mistaken about who

14 was the subzone commander for each of these villages and have become

15 confused in that visit?

16 A. It is possible. I met Driton in Jablanica when I went there. I

17 visited Maliq in Prilep -- Prilep and Carabreg are very close to each

18 other, and maybe he was in different place at the time. But as far as I

19 remember, I went and met him.

20 Q. I'm sure you met these individuals, but you've recorded in your

21 statement that they are subzone commanders for particular villages, and I

22 think you now accept that those records that you've made may be in error.

23 Is that correct?

24 A. As far as I remember, it could be, although it's been a long

25 time, as you know.

Page 3347

1 Q. Yes. Secondly then, if I may, in that respect, could I ask that

2 you be shown on the ELMO an aerial photograph.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Could we pull it back so that both of the crosses

4 marked on that photograph can be seen.

5 Q. Now, pausing there. Mr. Zyrapi, I have marked those two crosses

6 on the photograph because I'm suggesting to you that those were the

7 locations at which the large machine-guns that you saw were, in fact,

8 located. And just to help you with your orientation, if you look towards

9 the left-hand side of the picture just below and to the left of the first

10 cross on the left, that is the crossroads at the centre of Gllogjan. And

11 I suggest to you that the first of the machine-guns you saw was located

12 on the road that leads from that junction towards Shaptej. And that the

13 second was located in the position marked on the right-hand side of the

14 photograph very close to the Haradinaj family compound on the road in

15 from Dubrave.

16 Now, first of all, you are obviously marking positions on a very

17 large or -- possibly the opposite way, a very small-scale map, the

18 approximate locations. Do you accept that the precise locations may have

19 been the positions that I show in this photograph?

20 A. During my visit, especially here to this crossroads, there was a

21 12.5-millimetre machine-gun -- 12.7 --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but I don't know whose houses

24 these were.


Page 3348

1 Q. I'm simply inviting you to confirm that the precise locations

2 were as I have marked them on that photograph.

3 A. The one here in the upper part of the photograph was on the road,

4 while the second one was close to the houses, but I don't know whose

5 houses those were. I just visited the place, the position.

6 Q. I see. Is the position this, that you can't say one way or the

7 other whether the crosses I've marked are accurate?

8 A. No, I can't.

9 Q. Thank you. The guns that you saw were 1950s models, weren't

10 they? They were elderly weapons?

11 A. Yes, they were anti-aircraft machine-guns, 12.7, Chinese make.

12 Q. Thank you. Could you look behind tab --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, perhaps the witness could

14 answer the question. It wasn't what the make was, whether they are 1950s

15 models. I think that needs to be addressed.

16 MR. EMMERSON: I thought the first word of the answer did address

17 it, but --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps --

19 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated].


21 Q. Can I ask you, Mr. Zyrapi, can you confirm, please, that the

22 weapons that you saw were elderly weapons?

23 A. Yes, old makes, but they functioned.

24 Q. Yes. They functioned -- they were the sort of things that were

25 used as anti-aircraft weapons in the Second World War. Is that correct?

Page 3349

1 A. Yes. They were elderly weapons, as you said, but I don't know

2 whether they were used during the Second World War. I could see for

3 myself that they were old weapons.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you turn, please, behind tab 12 of the bundle.

5 You should have a map behind tab 12, at the very end of the bundle. Do

6 you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This is a map produced by the colonel in charge of the Serb

9 forces in that area, showing the deployment of Serb forces in the area to

10 the south-west -- sorry, south-east of Gllogjan during the period between

11 April and September 1998. Now, you gave certain evidence yesterday about

12 Serb positions on the main road, and then followed that up by suggesting

13 that there were no Serb positions on the interior of the countryside?

14 And if you look at the red line that -- on that map is preceding

15 from the direction of the top left-hand corner town towards Gjakove, that

16 is the main road from Peje to Gjakove. And I want to suggest to you that

17 there were Serb artillery and combined Serb forces positions at the south

18 end of Lake Radoniq and at three elevated positions: A hill near

19 Baballoq; a hill called Radonjicka Suka or Donji Bites immediately west

20 to the Lake Radoniq; and a hill called Suka Cermjan to the east of Lake

21 Radoniq.

22 A. Yes, I see the map, and when I explained my movements in the

23 Dukagjini area, I explained where I passed and the positions of the Serbs

24 at that time. I did not go to the other areas because of restrictions of

25 time.

Page 3350

1 Q. Yes, but you also gave evidence that there was no Serb -- there

2 were no Serb positions located within the -- I think the word you used

3 was "hinterland," but certainly within the countryside areas. And I'm

4 suggesting to you that that evidence that you gave yesterday is wrong and

5 that there were Serb positions, both at the south of Lake Radoniq and on

6 each of the three hills that I have described to you, Mr. Zyrapi. Can I

7 ask you, please, to indicate what your response to that suggestion is?

8 A. I also said that in the statement and repeated it in my

9 testimony, that I only indicated the places where I've been and where I

10 knew that there were Serb positions. I don't know about other places.

11 Q. Listen carefully to the question, Mr. Zyrapi, and then answer it

12 if you will. You gave evidence yesterday that there were no Serb

13 positions in the countryside to the east of the main road. I want to put

14 to you the suggestion in clear terms that that evidence was wrong and

15 that there were Serb positions mounted on the elevated areas I've

16 described and at the south of Lake Radoniq and, indeed, that just a short

17 while, a matter of two weeks or less after you were there, the British

18 Military Attache observed four hours of heavy shelling from that

19 position.

20 I want to ask you, please, to respond to the suggestion that the

21 evidence, that you gave yesterday, was in error.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, that question's

23 unfair because the line of questioning is certainly quite proper, I've

24 got no problem with that. But surely we should elicit from this witness

25 what he means when he talks about the hinterland and the area to the

Page 3351

1 east. He said that he hadn't been --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's look first exactly at what he said yesterday.

3 Mr. Emmerson, could you guide me --

4 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I apologise. I don't have the reference to

5 my -- to hand. But certainly when asked to locate, in answer to

6 questions from Mr. Di Fazio, the Serb positions, the witness --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Did he use the word "hinterland" or --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: He did. I remember it. It was my question --

9 JUDGE ORIE: It will be easy to find. It will be easy to find.

10 One second, please. At least if it's ...

11 I've got it on page 3240.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Does the answer say: "When I toured Prilep

13 village, the road was -- which goes to Decane-Gjakove was nearby and the

14 Serbian forces had taken up positions there but not in the hinterland of

15 the villages"?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's exactly -- that's really what is on the

17 record.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The question I'm putting to the witness, if

19 I can be clear about it --


21 MR. EMMERSON: -- is that there were, in fact, Serb positions,

22 very substantial Serb artillery and combined forces positions on the

23 locations I've described on the east of the main road.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Zyrapi --

25 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Emmerson, we have to be

Page 3352

1 careful. We have to understand a question in relation to the -- in

2 relation -- we have to understand the answer in relation to the question.

3 The question was: "In the time that you were touring during this tour of

4 three days, other than the Serb positions that you've mentioned, did you

5 encounter any other Serb positions?"


7 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand the answer to be that where the

8 witness was moving around, that he did not encounter, even if literally

9 the answer may have been of a more absolute character, nevertheless, we

10 should first try to better understand --


12 JUDGE ORIE: -- the evidence before we say that it was wrong.

13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not in the process of seeking to criticise the

14 witness but seeking to clarify exactly what the position is, because that

15 on the face of it appears to be a categorical statement, but I'm very

16 happy for the witness to clarify the position.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If -- yes.


19 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, were you or were you not aware that there were Serb

20 artillery positions to the west -- I'm sorry, to the east of the main

21 road when you visited?

22 A. Yes, there were artillery Serb positions in Podi i Geshtenjave

23 there.

24 Q. I'm sorry. Where are you indicating?

25 A. It's a part where you leave Decane in the direction of Peje.

Page 3353

1 It's a place called Podi i Geshtenjave there. This is where the Serb

2 artillery position was.

3 Q. Can you help us on the map, please, where you say this was?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps let's first try to find out.

5 Witness, could you tell us, is that north of Decani or ...

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you go west, in the direction

7 of Peje.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But is there --


10 Q. Is it north-west of Decani or is it -- if we have the road that

11 starts from Peje and then to Decani and then to Gjakove, is it on the

12 Peje to Decani stretch, or on the Decani to Gjakove stretch that you're

13 describing?

14 A. On the stretch Decane-Peje.

15 Q. That's -- that's -- I think, the area you're describing, correct

16 me if I'm wrong, is on the west side of the main road near Decane, is

17 that correct? On the border side of the main road?

18 A. Along the main road that goes from Decane to Peje, if you are

19 asking me about the Serb artillery position.

20 Q. No. Let -- just pause there for a moment. The question I'm

21 asking you, which I hope is reasonably clear, Mr. Zyrapi, is that there

22 were Serb artillery and combined forces positions located on the high

23 ground to the east of the main road around the area of Lake Radoniq, on

24 both sides of it.

25 Now, if -- can you please indicate to us in clear terms whether

Page 3354

1 you can confirm or deny, or you do not know?

2 A. I don't remember. I only spoke about places where I went.

3 Q. Well, then let me put it to you this way: You're not in a

4 position, are you, to confirm that there were no Serb forces stationed in

5 the countryside to the east of the main Peje to Gjakove road? You're not

6 in a position to confirm that there were no Serb forces stationed on the

7 east side in the countryside?

8 A. When I gave the statement, I spoke only about the places where I

9 went, which I visited, and where I didn't see such positions.

10 MR. EMMERSON: If Your Honour's happy that that is a clear enough

11 answer to the question, then I'll move on.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But before doing so, this map is -- it says

13 it's -- it's tendered and admitted, in which case do you want this to be

14 assigned a number?

15 MR. EMMERSON: No, because that is a map which will be -- which

16 is in the bundle which was shown to Colonel Crosland, and so it will be

17 assigned a number through that mechanism. That's Colonel Delic's map.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.

19 Please proceed.


21 Q. It doesn't sound, Mr. Zyrapi, if I may say so, as if you got a

22 very clear picture of where the Serb forces were located in the Dukagjin

23 region. Would you accept that suggestion?

24 A. Yes. This is what I could surmise from my movements. In

25 general, as I said, I didn't see Serb forces.

Page 3355

1 Q. And just one other topic, if I may, please, from that part of

2 your visit. How long did you spend in Irzniq altogether?

3 A. I don't remember the accurate time.

4 Q. Well, just give us an indication, if you would, please. You

5 visited quite a number of different locations before lunch, didn't you?

6 Just tell us how much time you spent in Irzniq, approximately?

7 A. I cannot give you an estimate. I really don't remember the

8 accurate time I spent there.

9 Q. Could it have been less than half an hour?

10 A. It could. I know that we stayed there for a short time, at least

11 this is what I remember.

12 Q. Could it have been less than 15 minutes?

13 A. No, no. More than that.

14 Q. So it's at least 15 minutes, but it could be less than half an

15 hour?

16 A. I can't be precise, really. I don't remember.

17 Q. You mentioned rapid intervention units. Were you aware of rapid

18 intervention units in other parts of Kosovo at this time?

19 A. Yes. It was the time when they started to be formed. They were

20 in Drenica Zone because of the need to give assistance to go to the

21 secourse of other units along the front line.

22 Q. And can you help us about this: In the process of the emerging

23 structures that you've described, where villages were coming together and

24 were beginning to try to form Joint Commands, in general terms, do you

25 know when in that that process the rapid intervention units started to be

Page 3356

1 formed?

2 A. I can't give you a precise time, but from what I know in Drenica

3 Zone, I think they started to be formed in June or July, but I couldn't

4 give you an accurate estimation of time for other zones.

5 Q. Taking these different rapid intervention units together, do you

6 know if it was somebody's idea to form them, to have rapid intervention

7 units in general? Was it someone's suggestion as far as you know?

8 A. In Drenica, when I went there, I suggested to them to form such

9 rapid intervention units to be ready to intervene when they were called

10 upon.

11 Q. So in Drenica, at least, you've got some idea of when it was

12 formed, is that right, and how it was formed?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was it your suggestion in Dukagjin as well?

15 A. I suggested this in Drenice. I didn't have contacts in Dukagjin.

16 Q. Do you know when the Dukagjin Rapid Intervention Unit was formed?

17 A. No, I don't know that.

18 Q. Do you know whose idea it was to form it?

19 A. No, I don't remember that.

20 Q. Do you know where in the Dukagjini area it was first formed?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know where its operational area was; in other words, how

23 wide it could move?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you know whether it had more than one base?

Page 3357

1 A. No, only -- I know only when I visited where I was there.

2 Q. You see, you've given us certain evidence about rapid

3 intervention units being under the direct command of zone commanders, but

4 I want to suggest to you, just so that it's clear, that rapid

5 intervention units had the capacity to act completely on their own

6 initiative, without instructions?

7 A. From what I know, they were under the command of the zone

8 commander.

9 Q. And is that based on your experience in Drenica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Because the only time you spent looking at anybody from a rapid

12 intervention unit in Dukagjin was the half an hour or however long it was

13 that you were in Irzniq. Is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know how much independence or autonomy there was for the

16 rapid intervention unit in the Dukagjini area, to what extent they could

17 make their own decisions about deployment?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In your November 2005 statement at paragraphs 24 to 25, you make

20 some comments about this. And in paragraph 25, you say: "Toger's unit

21 was not attached to any particular subzone. They could operate anywhere

22 in the Dukagjini area."

23 What was the basis for that comment? Where did you get that

24 information from?

25 A. I made this comment based on what I knew of rapid intervention

Page 3358

1 units in other zones, and when I visited it they had a special command

2 and a special place they were in.

3 Q. Yes, I see. But as you've told us a moment ago you don't know

4 whether they had other locations elsewhere?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. Penultimate topic, if I may, the second --

7 JUDGE ORIE: You say "penultimate topic." Mr. Emmerson, I think

8 it's fair that you would conclude with the witness during this session,

9 which we've only a couple of minutes left.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Well, in those circumstances, there's no point in

11 me embarking on a further topic. The witness went to Dukagjin on a

12 second occasion and dealt with, he said in his witness statement, an

13 incident concerning the relationship between FARK and the KLA.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps a practical solution might be if you confer

15 with some of your colleagues, who still have some remaining time for

16 cross-examination.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, except that neither of them are concerned

18 with that part of the case, but I'll leave it if Your Honour's of that

19 view.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well --

21 MR. EMMERSON: I can't pursue it if there isn't time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time -- at the same time, you gave an

23 indication --

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 3359

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might interject. If I -- if I could get

2 some guidance from the Chamber as to how much more time the Chamber

3 envisions we will be with this particular witness, perhaps a conference

4 between the three of us may be of some assistance; then again it may not.

5 JUDGE ORIE: For the next witness, which is Witness 29, the OTP

6 has asked for two and a half hours, and on the basis of the assumption

7 that they are as disciplined as they were with this witness, that means

8 that tomorrow we would have one session and a half, approximately, for --

9 a little bit less for this witness. Earlier, I don't exactly remember

10 what you said earlier, Mr. Guy-Smith, but how much time would you under

11 the present circumstances -- how much time would you need?

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, my -- my time is less than it had been

13 before, and I think -- I think it's fair to say substantially less. But

14 what I can say is this: With regard to the upcoming witness, I expect to

15 be spending very little time with that witness, based upon the manner in

16 which I believe the evidence will be led. And I'm confident that we can

17 finish both this witness as well as the next witness's

18 examination-in-chief, using both the balance of today, if I sit down

19 rapidly, as well as tomorrow.


21 Now, let's just look at -- Mr. Di Fazio -- let me first ask

22 Mr. Harvey, how much time would you still need?

23 Mr. Guy-Smith, if you say, I need less time than I assessed

24 before, could you give us -- I mean, "less," could be one minute less or

25 half an hour less.

Page 3360

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I figure that I will probably be somewhere in the

2 neighbourhood of between 15 or 20 minutes. It could be shorter.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

4 MR. HARVEY: I think I'm going to be between 20 minutes and half

5 an hour with this witness, Your Honour. I will have no questions for the

6 witness tomorrow, if I that assists.


8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, just taking stock of the position

9 overall, Thursday is set aside for cross-examination alone of the

10 following witness and re-examination.


12 MR. EMMERSON: And I think I'm right in saying that I will be

13 conducting almost all of the cross-examination of tomorrow's witness on

14 Thursday.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for additional time on the 5th of February

16 for Witness 29.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exactly so. I can't imagine that I would

18 need anything more in total than two hours for Witness 29. It's a

19 confined single incident, event. And so on any view, even if

20 Witness 29's evidence did not conclude tomorrow in chief, I would be

21 confident that we would complete cross-examination of Witness 29 and

22 re-examination before the end of Thursday's session.


24 MR. EMMERSON: So to that extent -- and I'm sorry if I made

25 certain assumptions about how the week was organised when I was planning

Page 3361

1 cross-examination of witness, but it did seem to me that he had,

2 particularly by reference to the documents that he has been asked to look

3 at, some information that might assist the Trial Chamber on some of the

4 structural questions, which would take a little time to go through. And

5 I do apologise, I should have notified you earlier that I thought it

6 would take rather longer than I thought.


8 Mr. Di Fazio, Witness 29 has been scheduled for two and a half

9 hours, but I think at the time there was no issue of 92 ter yet. We --

10 what's the present assessment of how much time you would need?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I've been speaking to Mr. Kearney, who's

12 going to have the next witness.


14 MR. DI FAZIO: And he's not alerted me to any substantial

15 increase in the -- in the allocated time. If Your Honours please, I can

16 try and find out and give you a more accurate indication, but

17 certainly -- and I've spoken to him a little bit about -- about the

18 witness, and there's nothing that he's said to me - and I would have

19 expected him to -


21 MR. DI FAZIO: -- to indicate that there's a particular problem

22 or that the estimate is -- is wildly wrong or there's some inaccuracy in

23 it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an indication as -- as the matters

25 stand now how much time you would need for --

Page 3362

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry. Yes. Thank you. Mr. Kearney is

2 listening to us, and he informs us that he will need, as he puts it,

3 every second of 2.5 hours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.

5 Now, as matters stand now, how much time you would need for

6 re-examination of the present witness?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: As matters stand now, about 15 or 20 minutes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 15 or 20 minutes, which means that if the Defence

9 tomorrow, and I think that could be -- should be possible to achieve that

10 during the first session, that the Defence would finish

11 cross-examination, would then perhaps have a few questions from the

12 Bench. And then by the middle of the second session tomorrow, we might

13 finish with this witness and start the examination-in-chief. And in view

14 of what we heard from Mr. Emmerson, even if the examination-in-chief

15 could not be fully completed on Wednesday, that would not have any

16 dramatic results. Is this of sufficient guidance?

17 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then first of all, Mr. Zyrapi, we'd like to see you

19 back tomorrow, again 9.00 in the morning, same courtroom. I'll now ask

20 Madam Usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: A request was made for further protective measures

23 in respect of Witness 29. The Chamber was informed that the Defence does

24 not object. Is that true for --

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.

Page 3363

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although I'll not give at this moment reasons

2 for it, of course that will be done in public session, but the request is

3 granted in respect of Witness 29. That means pseudonym was already in

4 place, and face and voice distortion added to that.

5 Then I'd like to thank the interpreters and technicians for their

6 assistance today, and we --

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- will adjourn until the 25th of April, that is

9 tomorrow, 9.00, same courtroom.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of

12 April, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.