Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3597

1 Monday, 7 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To inform the parties, the late start allowed

11 us to start in a fully-composed Bench rather than to rely on 15 bis.

12 I do understand that Mr. Emmerson is suffering a delay in arriving

13 in the Netherlands.

14 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour, if I could offer sincere apologies

15 on his behalf.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I do not blame Mr. Emmerson himself for delays of

17 aeroplanes.

18 MR. DIXON: And also to apologise for him having to enter the

19 courtroom during the first session perhaps while the witness is already

20 testifying and wanted to express gratitude for the indication, I think,

21 Your Honours, that cross-examination of this witness will not commence

22 until tomorrow morning.


24 MR. DIXON: Other matters could be dealt with at the end of the

25 day, time permitting.

Page 3598

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber intends to start with the witness's

2 examination-in-chief and then if there's any time left today that we'd

3 then perhaps already spend some time on the rather long list of exhibits

4 marked for identification, some of them for quite understandable reasons,

5 but to see whether we can clean that list a bit.

6 Mr. Re, are you ready to call your next witness?

7 MR. RE: Yes, we are.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I do understand that the next witness there

9 are -- there is no application for protective measures, and your next

10 witness would be Rrustem Tetaj?

11 MR. RE: Yes, there is no application for protective measures from

12 the Prosecution, no.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, just --

14 MR. RE: That's correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be sure.

16 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

17 courtroom.

18 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harvey.

20 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Brahimaj is not receiving the translation in

21 Albanian.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then is he on the right channel? Then I ask

23 the assistance of the technicians.

24 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

25 And is the volume such that -- does he receive it in any other

Page 3599

1 language. Of course, I should continue to speak to see whether ...

2 MR. HARVEY: Apparently it is coming through on a channel that he

3 hasn't previously been using, but he's got it now.


5 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

6 MR. RE: Your Honours, this is a witness in respect of whom the

7 Prosecution has foreshadowed making application under Rule 92 ter.


9 MR. RE: And we provided the Trial Chamber and the Defence with a

10 copy of the proposed statement on the 19th of April giving notice of our

11 intention to use it. We've heard nothing from the Defence up until now as

12 to whether there was any opposition to that course. And we'd make the

13 formal application to rely upon those 38 paragraphs in that statement

14 signed on the 17th of April which are basically an extract of the 106, I

15 think, paragraphs of the consolidated statement of the same date.


17 Is there any objection against admission of the 38-paragraph

18 witness statement where it says that it is the 13th and 17th of April of

19 this year statement, is that --

20 MR. RE: The date of signature, I think, is the 17th of April,

21 that's why I used that date.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes it is a bit confusing because on the

23 front page of the statement you find all kind of dates, but it is a

24 statement which on the second page starts with paragraph 1, "Since 1981

25 the regime in Belgrade," that's the first few -- the first line of page 2,

Page 3600

1 continuing up to and including what I would expect to be page 20 because

2 it follows page 19, although page 20 is not -- is not numbered. Then

3 there is a -- another signature on a page which is numbered 12, which is

4 quite surprising after 20, which is the certification of the interpreter.

5 Mr. Re, is that -- because that's dated also the 17th of April,

6 and the witness acknowledgement and the signatures on every page is also

7 17th of April.

8 MR. RE: Yes, it bears -- the signature date is the 17th of April,

9 2007.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Just in order to avoid whatever further

11 confusion, the stamped number on the top is U1 -- U0160890 up to and --

12 yes. Yes, it says O1 -- U0160901 and I'm just now trying to reconcile

13 myself how 890 plus 20 makes 901. There must be something --

14 [The witness entered court]

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour.


17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've just checked with Mr. Dixon and Mr. Harvey,

18 and we are operating off an entirely different document. We're operating

19 off a document with a number of U0160848. I've been through rapidly a

20 variety of places where I would find the document that has been referred

21 to and I don't seem to have a copy of that document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And before we continue, Mr. Guy-Smith, perhaps it

23 would be more polite to say -- to ask the witness first to give his solemn

24 declaration.

25 Good afternoon. Welcome in this courtroom. I apologise for

Page 3601

1 continuing our conversation where you entered the courtroom and we

2 apparently did not pay the appropriate attention to your arrival,

3 Mr. Tetaj, because I take it that you are Mr. Tetaj. Mr. Tetaj, before

4 you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

5 require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Before I invite you to make that

7 solemn declaration, do you hear me in a language you understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then the text of the solemn declaration will be

10 handed out to you now by Madam Usher, and I would like to invite you to

11 make that solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

15 Before we start your examination, Mr. Tetaj, I'd like to clarify a

16 matter with the parties. So if you would have one moment for us.

17 I do understand that the pages you're referring to, Mr. Guy-Smith,

18 are the pages of the full statement given by the witness and put on paper

19 on the 17th of April, which is a document containing 100 paragraphs and

20 that the Prosecution has selected 38 paragraphs, mainly coming from this

21 statement, Mr. Re, as far as I understand, and has sent that as the

22 proposed 92 ter statement to the parties on the 19th of April of 2007.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's what I understand the representation of

24 being, and I have no reason to disbelieve it, but there seems to be some

25 slippage because we're not finding that document and I have been operating

Page 3602

1 off of the document that I referred to just now. I'm -- I'm having it

2 double-checked as we speak -- actually, it's triple-checked. Perhaps I

3 missed it, but I don't seem to find this document in any --

4 JUDGE ORIE: What I see, as a matter of fact, I see an e-mail by

5 Mr. Re to, among others, Gregor Guy-Smith, the 19th of April, 8.20 p.m.,

6 which starts with: "Witnesses for the week of the 23rd of April." And

7 then at the end it says: "Attached is a signed proposed Rule 92 ter

8 statement for part of Rrustem Tetaj's evidence. The witness signed a

9 larger consolidated statement on the 17th of April, which will be -- we

10 will forward to the Defence counsel tomorrow. The proposed 92 ter

11 statement is an extract from that larger statement."

12 Now, I see that attached to that e-mail was a 92 ter statement

13 which --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: We also --

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- gives the numbers and -- U0160878 up to U0161 --

16 0901.tif. That's what I understand. That gives me the impression that it

17 was sent to you.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: It has just been -- it has just been found.


20 MR. GUY-SMITH: As I said, there might have been some slippage,

21 which is why I said I certainly didn't accuse Mr. Re of not doing

22 anything --


24 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- they claim to have done. There seems to be

25 some slippage. If we could have a moment, we will be able to respond.

Page 3603

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that one is just an extract of

2 the other with a lot of details and some elements not contained in the 92

3 ter statement. So I think if you prepared on the basis of the larger one,

4 then it would not cause you major problems.

5 Mr. Re -- but first, Mr. Tetaj, I again have to apologise, but we

6 had to clarify this issue before we could start your examination. You'll

7 first be examined by Mr. Re, who's -- yes, Mr. Dixon.

8 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, can I just clarify for the record that

9 there is no objection on the part of Mr. Haradinaj to this application

10 being made, but I would request that the full requirements of the rule,

11 Rule 92 ter, in particular subparagraph (a)(ii), be clarified with the

12 witness in the following way: That it is confirmed that the witness is

13 going to be available after the statement has been admitted for

14 questioning and cross-examination --

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- I mean, 92 ter is -- includes that.

16 MR. DIXON: I only raise that, Your Honour, because there was an

17 issue over his attendance and hence the need for a subpoena, which was

18 issued. So I'm just guarding against the situation where the statement

19 may be admitted and no further questions may be put to the witness because

20 he is right to introduce -- could that just be clarified. That's all I

21 ask, Your Honour.


23 MR. DIXON: Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, are you ready to start your examination of the

25 witness?

Page 3604

1 MR. RE: Yes, I certainly am.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might?


4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I take a similar position, having just rapidly

5 reviewed the statement.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 Mr. Harvey.

8 MR. HARVEY: I'm in the same situation, Your Honour; I take the

9 same position.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we could not decide even on

11 admission until we have gone through the formalities of 92 ter. That's

12 the reason why I did not yet invite you at this stage to express yourself

13 because we still need the witness to attest to certain matters.

14 Mr. Re, please proceed.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examination by Mr. Re:

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Tetaj. Your name is Rrustem Tetaj?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And were you born on the 27th of April, 1953, in Donja Luka in

21 Kosovo?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And were you a -- were you living in Strumica, Macedonia, from

24 1978 to 1998 -- sorry, 1999 as a member of the JNA, the JNA barracks in

25 Strumica?

Page 3605

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you graduate in 1978 from the military academy at the JNA in

3 Zadar as a second lieutenant?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And --

6 A. Yes, lieutenant.

7 Q. And from 1987 were you a deputy commander of artillery at the JNA

8 barracks in Strumica until you became a first-class captain in 1989?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I do not fully remember what you said, but

12 looking at the transcript, page 8, line 20, you corrected 1998, but it now

13 reads 1999 where I suppose it should read 1989. Could you please verify

14 that with the witness.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Just to clarify, Mr. Tetaj, you were living in the JNA barracks

17 from 1978 to 1989. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And to summarize, were -- did you leave the JNA in December, 1989

20 because you were forced to do so, in effect, because you were an ethnic

21 Albanian JNA officer and the JNA Supreme Command was eliminating ethnic

22 Albanian officers and soldiers from the JNA because of tensions the

23 Yugoslav authorities were encountering in Kosovo?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I want to show you a statement. I'm going to hand it to you --

Page 3606

1 A. That's exactly so.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm going to hand you a handwritten statement of some

3 12 pages with your signature on it dated the 17th of April, 2007. And it

4 is 65 ter number 1328, for the record.

5 What I want you to do is just to read through that document,

6 please, and just read it -- read it through -- just read it through to

7 yourself for a moment, and I understand you have a copy of it -- or you

8 were given a copy of it after you signed it. You don't need to take your

9 copy out if you have it.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re, are you now referring to a document we

11 don't have before us, as you said "handwritten document."

12 MR. RE: Did I say "handwritten"? I apologise. I meant to

13 say "signed statement."

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Can you just look through the statement. Does it bear your

17 signature on each page? Is it the statement you made to the Prosecution

18 on the 17th of April, 2007?

19 A. Yes, this is it.

20 Q. And is it true and correct, what is written in the statement which

21 you signed?

22 A. I believe so. There are things which are exactly as said, there

23 are also things about which I have heard. So if I would be given the

24 possibility from the Judges here. At first I'd like to clarify my

25 position. Is that possible, honourable Judges?

Page 3607

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tetaj, at this very moment we are identifying

2 what your statement was, and the Chamber is aware that you have made --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's -- I just would like to ask you

4 to clarify my position, just as you told me so. You didn't give me time.

5 Could I --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tetaj, if at the end of your testimony there's

7 anything you would like to add or you think is important for us to know,

8 we'll give you an opportunity to add anything. But at this very moment

9 the only thing we are doing is that we look at your statement because we

10 are not going to ask you to repeat everything you said in that statement.

11 Then Mr. Re will ask you additional questions perhaps on matters which are

12 not contained in that statement or to clarify certain matters that are in

13 that statement. And if at the very end you think that there is some

14 important matter we have not heard of and which you think we should hear

15 about, then we'll give you an opportunity to do that so -- but we'll first

16 give an opportunity to Mr. Re to ask questions. And then at the end we'll

17 give you an opportunity to add.

18 Mr. Re.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, this has not to do with the

20 statement but with my coming here.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was -- I was ordered to come here

23 by all means. I didn't know I should have come directly here; however,

24 there was pressure on the part of the Prosecutor office for me to come

25 here. This is -- this has been also sent to me in written form, so I've

Page 3608

1 come here to clarify the truth, to speak about the truth as much as I know

2 about it. A long time has passed since then, so I'll do my best to speak

3 about things. However, my coming here is against my desire and against my

4 personal will.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- you are here because you have been

6 ordered to appear before this Tribunal, Mr. Tetaj. Of course the Chamber

7 is aware because the Chamber issued that order, that's one; and second,

8 you are thus fulfilling your civil obligation to assist this Court in

9 trying to find the truth.

10 Mr. Re, you may proceed.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. Mr. Tetaj, if we can just go back to the statement of the 17th of

13 April, and I just wish to get you to clarify for the Trial Chamber that

14 what is in there is true and correct and that you've signed every page of

15 that statement.

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. RE: On that basis, may I be received into evidence?


19 Any objection? I take it that it's a combined question that

20 it's -- that the witness has attested that the witness statement reflects

21 his declaration and that the witness would say, if examined the same, if

22 he says it's the truth, whereas he expected to tell us the truth, then we,

23 the Chamber, would be inclined to consider that to be the 92 ter (A)(iii)

24 statement.

25 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour, there is no objection. I would

Page 3609

1 simply repeat the point I made earlier that the witness confirmed that he

2 will answer questions from all the parties and Your Honours after

3 questions and further questions have been put by Mr. Re.

4 Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections on behalf of Mr. Guy-Smith and

6 Mr. Harvey?

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: None on behalf of Mr. Balaj.

8 MR. HARVEY: None.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, would you please assign a

10 number to the 92 ter statement.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P265.


13 Mr. Re, I take it that you gave the -- you gave the original to

14 Tetaj. Has he received a translation in his own language?

15 MR. RE: [Microphone not activated]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what he's reading off, yes, because I

17 don't think as a matter of fact from this statement the Chamber received a

18 translation. But original English translation looked at by the witness.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. RE: I have a short summary prepared of this. Does Your

21 Honours wish me to read it on the record now?


23 Also for Mr. Tetaj to know.

24 Mr. Tetaj, from the statement we just spoke about, a summary has

25 been made, because we are not going through all these facts anew, and

Page 3610

1 therefore for the public to know what is in your statement, Mr. Re will

2 read a short summary of what is in the statement.

3 Mr. Re, please proceed.

4 MR. RE: I have a copy of the summary to distribute to --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the Defence has --

6 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we haven't seen a copy of this statement

7 before.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- usually a copy of the summary is presented

9 to the other party. It's not the evidence to that extent.

10 MR. DIXON: No, Your Honour, and if there are any points arising,

11 they can always be corrected at a later point.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters kindly ask for a copy of

14 the summary.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll provide you with a copy.

16 Yes, you need more than one copy to serve more than one

17 interpreter.

18 It seems that a copy has arrived in each of the four booths,

19 Mr. Re. Therefore please proceed.

20 MR. RE: The witness is a Kosovar Albanian former JNA officer who

21 left the JNA in 1989. After leaving the JNA, he worked as a teacher in a

22 secondary school until 1992, when he left because of systematic

23 discrimination by the Serbian authorities against Albanian teachers.

24 In 1993 he was arrested and tried by the Serbian authorities for

25 subversive activities. He spent two years in prison.

Page 3611

1 He first heard of the KLA or UCK in 1996 or 1997 through the

2 media. His first encounter with the KLA was at a funeral in late 1997 in

3 Lausa. The witness first found out about the presence of the KLA in the

4 Dukagjin area when the MUP attacked the Haradinaj family compound at the

5 end of March, 1998; before this, some MUP officers had been killed in

6 Ratis and Gllogjan.

7 The witness was in Donja Luka, about 6 kilometres from Gllogjan,

8 when the MUP attacked the Haradinaj compound. He saw air attacks carried

9 out by MUP helicopters. The witness considered his life to be in danger

10 after this because of his former involvement in the JNA, and he left his

11 village. He went to Gllogjan several days after the attack and attended

12 the funeral of some of those killed in the attack.

13 After the MUP withdrew from Gllogjan, local Albanian men

14 controlled the village. Several days after the funeral, he learnt that

15 the KLA had established an organised defence and guard duty in that

16 village. His brother told him of seeing armed soldiers with KLA insignia

17 and of a check-point manned by KLA soldiers from the village.

18 The witness saw a KLA check-point in Gllogjan about a week after

19 the funeral, manned by armed KLA soldiers in camouflage uniform. He went

20 there because it had become known as the epicentre of the KLA.

21 By the beginning of April, 1998 Dubrava, Babaloc, Gramocelj,

22 Shaptej, and Lumbardh had started to form their own KLA village

23 headquarters. The KLA was using doubtful methods to recruit volunteers,

24 such as their soldiers going at night to the houses of those who had not

25 yet joined the KLA and firing rounds after leaving.

Page 3612

1 Mr. Tetaj went to Gllogjan to join the KLA and to discuss the

2 situation because people in his village were awaiting his decision to join

3 the KLA before they would organise themselves. A lot of people were black

4 listed by Faton Mehemetaj and Fitnete Ramosaj for not being loyal to the

5 KLA or for sympathising with the opposition, LDK, or for not having worked

6 for the MUP or other authorities. Lists of their names were circulated

7 among KLA guards, who were to refuse access to the village of those whose

8 names were on the list.

9 Mr. Tetaj's name was on such a list, and at the beginning of May

10 1998 he was interrogated for two hours by Faton Mehemetaj in Pozar and

11 accused of being a MUP informer before being released. He had not yet

12 joined the KLA then. The witness heard of the kidnapping of several Serbs

13 in the Dukagjin area in May 1998.

14 The FARK had about 500 soldiers in three brigades. It operated

15 separately to the KLA. Each organisation had its own military structure.

16 The brigade commanders were: Nazif Ramabaja in Barane, Shemsedin Cekaj in

17 Zebelj, and Tahir Zemaj in Prapaqan, who was the FARK commander.

18 That completes the summary of what is contained in the 92 ter

19 statement.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. I'm now going to ask you some further questions about other things

23 which were in your large statement to the Office of the Prosecutor but are

24 not in that statement or the summary I've just read out, Mr. Tetaj. The

25 first thing I'm going to ask you about is your visit to the KLA

Page 3613

1 headquarters in Gllogjan in April, 1998. In your 92 ter statement,

2 paragraphs 19 to 20, you refer to going to KLA headquarters to see the KLA

3 in Gllogjan. Who did you go there with?

4 A. I was interested to know after what happened, after the attack on

5 Haradinaj in Gllogjan so due to the situation created in the surrounding

6 villages around Gllogjan. I was interested and curious to go to Gllogjan

7 and to meet with people there, people who might know something or -- our

8 intention was to join the UCK for self-defence; that is, for protecting

9 the people where we lived and the surrounding areas. So I decided to go

10 there. I went there with my brother and my cousin. We were in a car and

11 we travelled during the day.

12 Q. Was there a check-point in the village when you got there?

13 A. Yes, it was an improvised check-point, very simple kind of

14 check-point. There were three people. One was wearing uniform, the other

15 were not wearing uniform, so that was what we saw there.

16 Q. Were they KLA uniforms?

17 A. One of them was wearing a uniform, the others -- I'm not sure.

18 Somebody had some kind of uniform, but I'm not sure what kind of uniform

19 was there -- was that.

20 Q. Which military organisation did they belong to?

21 A. It was at the beginning. I didn't know anything about what kind

22 of organisation; however, judging on the place, they were people from the

23 UCK.

24 Q. Why did they stop you?

25 A. They stopped us -- I told them -- them that I wanted to meet some

Page 3614

1 people who were competent for the defence of the village. So they stopped

2 us. They asked us, Where do you come from? I told them that I was

3 determined to meet people and talk to them about the situation.

4 Q. Do you remember --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, may I just ask one additional question.

6 Mr. Re asked you, Mr. Tetaj, whether at the check-point --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether KLA uniforms -- whether the soldiers were

9 dressed in the KLA uniforms. You said: "One of them was wearing a

10 uniform." Could you tell us what kind of a uniform?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a camouflage uniform.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Any insignia on it, any --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military uniform. It had an

14 insignia of Kosovo Liberation Army on the arm.


16 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Do you remember whether any of those soldiers were armed?

19 A. Yes. They had an automatic rifle. Each of them had an automatic

20 rifle.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, I believe that the question asked by

24 Mr. Re at this point may be somewhat inaccurate or misleading. He

25 says: "Do you remember whether any of those soldiers were armed?"

Page 3615

1 The evidence we have at present is that one individual was in a

2 uniform and the other two individuals were not in uniform. So I'm not

3 sure that we're in a position yet to make a determination whether anybody

4 other than the one soldier, one individual in a uniform was, in fact, a

5 soldier.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, Mr. Re has drawn our attention to

7 paragraph 19 of the 92 ter statement which is in evidence which says it

8 was manned by armed soldiers. So therefore, I think we have sufficient

9 basis in the evidence to put that question to the witness.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. Did they have any communications equipment?

13 A. Yes, they had a communication equipment. It was a simple kind of

14 equipment with which they could communicate, yes, they had one.

15 Q. What do you mean by that? What did they have?

16 A. We call them walkie-talkies, small kind of --

17 Q. Did they use that --

18 A. A small kind of equipment. They used it. They used -- they

19 talked on it, then after some minutes they allowed us to move further

20 ahead.

21 Q. Did they check your identification before allowing you to go

22 further?

23 A. Yes, they asked for my ID, to check my identity. They looked at

24 it. Some of them knew me already, so they allowed me to proceed.

25 Q. Did you know who any of the people who stopped you were at the

Page 3616

1 time when you stopped you?

2 A. Personally, I didn't know any of them, but I heard later that one

3 of them was Daut Haradinaj.

4 Q. Tell the Court about the circumstances in which you heard that one

5 of them was Daut Haradinaj.

6 A. The moment when I saw them, I couldn't recognise any of them. I

7 asked me [as interpreted] but they told me that they knew me. But later I

8 learned that the person who was there was Daut Haradinaj.

9 Q. How did you learn that it was Daut Haradinaj? Tell the Court

10 about how you found out it was him.

11 A. Later I inquired. I had also my contacts.

12 Q. When did you see this person again, if at all, Daut Haradinaj?

13 A. I don't remember. That's a long time ago, however. Later I saw

14 him. I don't remember where. I'm sure I saw him at a meeting or probably

15 in the streets. I don't remember exactly.

16 Q. When you saw him again, was he wearing a KLA uniform?

17 A. Often he did not wear uniform. Sometimes he wore uniform,

18 sometimes he didn't wear a uniform.

19 Q. Where were you allowed to go in the village after you went through

20 this check-point?

21 A. I went to the centre of the village. I was received there by

22 somebody, and then he took us to a certain place.

23 Q. Was the person who received you a civilian or a soldier?

24 A. He was a civilian. As far as I remember, he had nothing on

25 [as interpreted].

Page 3617

1 Q. Where did he take you to?

2 A. He took us through a door. There was a two-storey house. There

3 was a chair inside the house. We sat down and then we waited until we

4 were called.

5 Q. Whose house was it?

6 A. Later, I learned that it was the house of Ismail Haradinaj, that

7 was his name.

8 Q. You said you waited until you were called. Who called you?

9 A. Later we were told to enter inside. There I saw the father of

10 Ramush Haradinaj, Hilmi. I knew him before. We were told to wait more,

11 and then after some time I was called, I don't remember who, then we went

12 up to the second floor and there we met with Ramush and with

13 [indiscernible]. That was the first time we met him.

14 Q. When you say "Ramush," do you mean Ramush Haradinaj?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said you were told to wait. What were you told to wait -- or

17 who were you told to wait for when you were waiting on the chair?

18 A. Then the commander came and he took us in.

19 Q. I'll just go back to what I was asking you a moment ago. Who were

20 you told that you were -- or what were you told was the reason why you

21 were waiting there?

22 A. We were told to wait until the commander would come. I don't know

23 exactly what more. I don't know who told us this.

24 Q. Were you aware as of that moment who the commander was; that is,

25 when you were sitting there waiting for the commander?

Page 3618

1 A. No, no. No, absolutely nothing.

2 Q. You said you were --

3 A. I thought I would meet somebody who was -- who would be

4 well-informed. I would talk to him, but I didn't know exactly who this

5 person would be. We were told he would be the commander; that's how he

6 was addressed to us. I didn't know exactly who the person was. I had no

7 idea who the person would be.

8 Q. You said after waiting for the commander you were taken upstairs

9 and you met with Ramush Haradinaj. Who was he with?

10 A. We entered the room. We waited a few minutes, then two persons

11 came in afterwards. I did not know any of them before. We greeted each

12 other. We -- I told them that my name was Rrustem Tetaj, that I was a

13 military man, that I had graduated from the army, and that I had come here

14 to discuss about the UCK.

15 Q. The two people with Ramush Haradinaj, were they KLA soldiers?

16 A. No. The -- there were two persons. It was Ramush and Togeri.

17 These were the people who came. I didn't know them before. That's what I

18 want to say.

19 Q. What were they wearing?

20 A. They were wearing military uniforms, camouflage ones, with boots.

21 One of them carried a cap. They were armed. We talked very briefly. He

22 heard my opinion, then they suggested us what we should do later.

23 Q. Which one was wearing the cap, Ramush or Togeri?

24 A. As far as I remember, Ramush carried a cap. Togeri spoke -- did

25 not say anything at all.

Page 3619

1 Q. Did the uniforms have the KLA insignia you referred to earlier?

2 A. No. I did not hear anything about it. They were just present

3 there.

4 Q. I'll make my question clearer. You referred earlier to KLA

5 insignia, that's patches. Do you remember whether either Ramush or Togeri

6 were wearing KLA patches or insignia on their uniforms?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. What arms were they bearing?

9 A. 7.62 automatic weapon, short; an ammunition carrier in the belt;

10 they were wearing military boots.

11 Q. What was Ramush Haradinaj's reaction when you told him that you

12 were a military man, that you had graduated from the army, and that you

13 were there to discuss about the UCK with him, what did he say?

14 A. My wish was to be in contact with them and to be engaged with the

15 Kosovo Liberation Army, willingly, so that I could help. But I asked them

16 if -- if there was the headquarters where my colleagues were engaged.

17 Ramush said that we -- we know that there is some headquarter existing,

18 but we do not recognise them, we don't much about them. And that's it.

19 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what that's about, what you

20 just said about your colleagues and headquarters and Ramush saying, There

21 is some existing but we don't recognise it. What was all that about?

22 A. I was thinking that there should be a general headquarters for the

23 Kosovo Liberation Army with all the powers which would be directly engaged

24 with the operations, but from the impression that I got there, there was

25 no such headquarters. And there were colleagues of mine who were

Page 3620

1 interested to help the war effort, and I thought that I wanted to meet

2 them so that they could come and get in touch with me.

3 Q. What was your impression when you were meeting Ramush Haradinaj as

4 to whether or not you were at KLA headquarters that first time you met

5 him?

6 A. My impression -- my first impression was that there was the -- the

7 only place where people got together, but it was not a genuine

8 headquarters in the real sense of the word. But Ramush informed me and

9 introduced me to Togeri, who was an experienced person, he said. I did

10 not know then that he was called Toger, but I thought that was a military

11 title and I thought he was one of the military people there.

12 Q. What did Ramush tell you about Togeri when -- on that time when

13 you first met him?

14 A. He said, This is Togeri, an experienced person in warfare, and

15 that was it. It was a very short meeting.

16 Q. Did he tell you anything about Togeri's war experience, like where

17 he had fought and for who?

18 A. As I said earlier, he told me that his experience -- he's

19 experienced in warfare from Croatia, from the war in Croatia.

20 Q. Who did he fight for?

21 A. He had fought on the side of the Croats.

22 Q. Was that against the Serbs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you notice any rank of -- military rank on Toger's uniform?

25 A. No, he wasn't carrying any ranks, but the word itself "Toger" made

Page 3621

1 me understand that he was a career military officer; that was my

2 impression, at least.

3 Q. What questions did Ramush Haradinaj ask you about yourself at that

4 first meeting and your experience?

5 A. He asked me where I had studied in the military academy, and I

6 explained that I had graduated from the military academy in Belgrade and I

7 had studied artillery.

8 Q. What was Ramush Haradinaj's overall reaction to your coming to

9 Gllogjan and seeing him?

10 A. Very modest. It was good. That was my impression. I can't

11 remember any further than that.

12 Q. What about further organisational military activity. Did you

13 discuss anything about what your role might be with Ramush on that

14 occasion?

15 A. No. I was interested to find out what I could do, and he said I

16 could return to my village and try to organise people there. But the

17 thing was that my village and the surrounding villages were not engaged

18 yet. And I said that I could deal with the military organisation, but I

19 had no weapons at my disposal. I was lacking in weaponry.

20 Q. Did Ramush give you any -- I'll withdraw that.

21 What did he say when you told him you were lacking in weaponry?

22 What was his response to your saying that?

23 A. He said I should go back to my village and organise people there,

24 get together some young people who could come and could go to Gllogjan,

25 and from there they could go to Albania to get weapons. And that's what I

Page 3622

1 did.

2 Q. When you're saying "that's what I did," do you mean you went back

3 to your village or you went to Albania? That's a little unclear.

4 A. I went back to my village. I organised the village, that's what

5 happened. I appointed some emergency staff. Some young people, young

6 men, turned up and reported, and I told them to go to Gllogjan, and later

7 they went to carry some light weapons.

8 Q. You referred a little earlier to Ramush telling you the young

9 people could go to Gllogjan and from there go to Albania to get weapons.

10 Did any of those young men you sent go to Gllogjan go to Albania to bring

11 back weapons?

12 A. Yes, they did.

13 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about that? When did they go to

14 Albania, in what circumstances? How did they get the weapons back, where

15 did they take them to?

16 A. As I said earlier, there was a group of young people who we

17 appointed from the village. They went to Gllogjan. From Gllogjan, they

18 went towards the border with Albania. They stayed for a few days. They

19 brought back some light weapons and brought it back with them in very

20 inconvenient circumstances at the time.

21 Q. How did they pay for the weapons?

22 A. Yes, they paid, as they told me, about 300 Deutschemarks for a

23 light weapon.

24 Q. What about mortars? Were there any mortars brought back?

25 A. Later on. That happened later on. In the village then, it was

Page 3623

1 only the beginning, and at the beginning it was only three, four people

2 and they brought back some -- some weaponry. And they had a hand-held

3 mortar, I think. As far as I can remember, it was 300-millimetre.

4 Q. When they came back from Albania, did they go via Gllogjan back to

5 your village with these light automatic weapons?

6 A. No. They went to Albania and they came back from different

7 direction, from wherever they could, because the Serb forces were lined up

8 along the border. So they chose a different route, they chose a different

9 route into the village.

10 Q. You described light automatic weapons. Did they have any

11 ammunition or other types of weapons such as grenades?

12 A. They had some ammunition, some grenades, very few. It was an

13 outdated ammunition and weapons.

14 Q. Do you know where they got it from in Albania or under what

15 circumstances they were able to get these weapons in Albania?

16 A. No, I don't know, but all I know is that they crossed the border

17 into Albania. But I don't know any more than that.

18 Q. I want --

19 A. It was from the people that I heard about this.

20 Q. Do you mean the people who went there?

21 A. It was the people who went across the border into Albania, met

22 some people on the other side, and it was them who provided the weapons

23 for them. They had to get in touch with these people in Albania to get

24 hold of the weapons that they bought.

25 Q. I'd like you to give the Trial Chamber a bit more detail about

Page 3624

1 your organisation of the young men in the village after your first meeting

2 with Ramush Haradinaj. What did you do and how did you organise them?

3 A. But that was the first phase, so these young people, they

4 travelled across to Albania to bring the weapons. And they were very

5 daring young men who decided to join the effort in the village, and the

6 village agreed to provide them with some money. And they also gave them

7 some light weapons to protect themselves, and that's what happened. But

8 that happened later.

9 Q. What was the connection with the KLA at the point when these young

10 men from the village went to Albania and you were organising them in the

11 village after your meeting with Ramush?

12 A. No, we were not connected, but later the situation got worse. The

13 Serbian forces had their positions set up closer and the people were in a

14 very poor situation and surrounded. So each and every person in one form

15 or another was trying to protect their house, the village, and the

16 surrounding area with all they could. So after some time, the surrounding

17 villages were organised in a similar way, so there was a new organisation

18 in Gllogjan, and the regional staff was established in Gllogjan.

19 Q. Are you referring to the KLA when you say "regional staff"?

20 A. Yes, for the KLA. It was being established there.

21 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about a person called Faik

22 Gecaj from Donja Luka.

23 A. Yes, Faik Gecaj was a village -- a villager from my village. He

24 lived abroad, he came back. In the first meeting that we had in the

25 village, Faik Gecaj declared that he could travel to Albania and could

Page 3625

1 bring back weapons to the villages, and that's what happened. He left

2 there, after two weeks he came back. He only knows how he organised that

3 with the mules and horses, and he brought weapons to the village. They

4 were simple weapons, unsophisticated, rusty.

5 Q. How much money did he take with him?

6 A. He did not have money, but it was organised from Albania. There

7 were people from the village who collected money. He had a meeting with

8 people in Albania, and we are talking about 25.000 Deutschemarks. The

9 village agreed.

10 Q. How long was it after your first meeting with Ramush Haradinaj

11 that Faik Gecaj went to Albania to collect these weapons?

12 A. It was a long time, because in the first phase there were four

13 people who went and they brought back a small quantity of weapons. But

14 Faik Gecaj went there -- he went there sometime -- a month after the

15 meeting that I had with Ramush.

16 Q. So that would make it mid-May, is that correct, mid-May 1998?

17 A. Yes. I can't remember the exact date.

18 Q. I want you to --

19 A. It was around about that time.

20 Q. Okay. Now, I want you to describe to the Trial Chamber the level

21 of organisation of the villages surrounding yours and Gllogjan by the end

22 of May, 1998.

23 A. Look, it was the beginning then. The surrounding villages were

24 being every day harassed by the Serb forces. A part of the villages were

25 not engaged with the KLA, but each and every village had its own

Page 3626

1 organisation. As I said earlier, in the similar way that I did it in the

2 village and it's -- it expanded from then, and it was the will of the

3 young people, in other villages some small cells were established other

4 villages. And that brought about an expansion of the Kosovo Liberation

5 Army in Dukagjin.

6 Q. Describe to the Trial Chamber the harassment by the Serb forces.

7 Who were these forces and what were they doing?

8 A. It was the police who could come up to the villages, and they

9 interrogated people, and there were many people who were politically

10 involved with political parties or other things. This was the kind of

11 harassment that the people were being subjected to. And looking at all

12 that was going on in this respect, the village decided to get organised.

13 Q. What did your village do to get organised?

14 A. As I said, we had a meeting. We decided to appoint some guards,

15 night guards, and they had no weapons initially. For everything -- I told

16 them to report to me for everything. We improvised a system through which

17 the road -- the roads leading into and out of the village be guarded.

18 Q. Did you have check-points or organised check-points on the road

19 leading into your village?

20 A. Yes, that was what I said. A check-point is a big word for what

21 we did. It was a very simple operation. There was one guard. It wasn't

22 a check-point in the real sense, in the real military sense of the word.

23 Q. Was this guard stopping people coming into the village or checking

24 them or what was he doing?

25 A. The people who we knew, there was no need to stop them because

Page 3627

1 people knew each other in the villages. But if there was any suspicious

2 person approaching, we would stop him and would check his identity.

3 Q. Was the guard armed or uniformed?

4 A. No. At the beginning they were not, but later, yes. However,

5 they were not wearing uniforms. It -- there was not enough uniforms

6 around.

7 Q. Were they armed?

8 A. I said at the beginning some of them were not, but later on, yes.

9 Q. When was later?

10 A. For example, in my village at the beginning in the first month we

11 had nothing. After a month, we had some weapons and the weapons that we

12 got hold of we -- were passed on to the guards, but there were no

13 uniforms. The guards were civilians.

14 Q. Okay. Two things here. Which month are you talking about and

15 what weapons are you referring to?

16 A. Look, at the beginning, the first month when we got organised, we

17 had no weapons. We had no uniforms. Later on we got light weapons,

18 semi-automatic rifles, some hand-grenades. There was a 20-millimetre gun,

19 and so on.

20 Q. In terms of the month you're referring to at the beginning, the

21 first month, we've heard evidence about March, April, and May, 1998 so

22 far. Which is the first month you're referring to when you got organised?

23 A. As you are asking me, I'm talking about right from the start of

24 the organisation of the village. That's the -- that's the first month. I

25 can't remember the date, but I'm referring to the point when I first

Page 3628

1 organised the village.

2 Q. How long after the attack by the MUP on the Haradinaj family

3 compound did you start to organise the village?

4 A. As far as I remember, in the village we had no weapons. It was

5 about two weeks, two weeks after that and it took a little bit longer for

6 the weapons to arrive, so it was probably mid-May.

7 Q. A little earlier you referred to small cells being established in

8 other villages, and then you said, And that brought about an expansion of

9 the Kosovo Liberation Army in Dukagjin. I want you to tell the Court what

10 you mean by "an expansion of the KLA" in Dukagjin. What happened? How

11 did it begin to expand?

12 A. Look, the situation in Gllogjan and the surrounding villages was

13 very serious. The Serbian forces and the Yugoslav Army forces, they were

14 establishing their positions in key points. So almost all the villages

15 there were surrounded and they were under the supervision of the Serb

16 forces. And the population was in a very dire situation. So with --

17 based on the will of the people, every village started to form their own

18 staffs, who joined the Kosovo Liberation Army.

19 Q. Was there a meeting organised by Ramush Haradinaj for

20 representatives of the villages?

21 A. Yes, that happened sometime at the end of May. I do not remember

22 the exact date. We had an invitation, all the representatives of the

23 villages of the Dukagjin area, but it was more specific. It was the

24 representatives of the villages around Gllogjan. So that we had an

25 invitation to get together and we met to discuss further action.

Page 3629

1 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown P123.

2 Q. I appreciate that's not the clearest thing on the screen. I have

3 a print-out which may assist you, if you want to have a look at that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is the print-out clearer, Mr. -- could I just have a

5 look at the print-out to see whether -- Madam Usher, could you -- could we

6 just have a look at the print-out.

7 One second.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is it.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. Being the invitation that Mr. Haradinaj sent to you to attend that

11 meeting?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. RE: Has that been tendered? I think it had an MFI number.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is on the long list of MFI numbers. We'll

15 deal with that soon.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. What did you find out about who had prepared that particular

18 invitation?

19 A. Later I heard that Faton Mehemetaj, who lived in Pozhare, had

20 prepared this invitation because he had a typing machine and he had

21 written such kind of invitation.

22 Q. Did he have a position within the KLA?

23 A. I didn't know what kind of position he had then, but later,

24 following the -- following this meeting on that date, I learnt about the

25 post he held.

Page 3630

1 Q. And what post --

2 A. He was in charge of information. He was in charge of contacts

3 with the media.

4 Q. Where was he based?

5 A. He was based in his house, in Pozhare.

6 Q. What about Fitnete Ramosaj, who was that?

7 A. Ramosaj, Ramosaj. Fitnete Ramosaj was a woman from a village

8 called Carrabreg. She always lived at that time in Pozhare. I had no

9 knowledge about the family links she had with Faton Mehemetaj.

10 Q. Did she have anything to do, as far as you were aware, with the

11 issuing of the invitations to attend that meeting?

12 A. Yes, surely she had.

13 Q. What was her position?

14 A. Together with Faton, they worked together, and they dealt with

15 contacts and information with various media for information.

16 Q. Are you saying that she was also in the KLA?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you go to the meeting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where was the meeting held?

21 A. The meeting took place in the village of Gllogjan, in the house of

22 Mehemetaj, in a room. It took place at about -- in the evening, at about

23 8.00 in the evening.

24 Q. How many people were there?

25 A. It was a great number of people. I don't know exactly the

Page 3631

1 number. They were all representatives from surrounding villages.

2 Probably one to three representatives from each village, but I don't

3 remember the exact number. It was a big room which was full of people.

4 Very few of them carried uniforms. Most of them were in civilian

5 clothes. They did not carry any weapons.

6 Q. Were there more than 50? Less than 50? More than a hundred?

7 Less than a hundred? Can you give an approximation of how many people

8 were there?

9 A. To tell you the truth, they were probably more than 50 but less

10 than 100. I don't know exactly the number.

11 Q. Who chaired the meeting?

12 A. The meeting was chaired by Ramush Haradinaj.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, soon I take it you'll come to the content of

14 the meeting. I'm looking at the clock. Perhaps it would be a better idea

15 to start that, but if there's any other introductory -- then, Mr. Tetaj,

16 we'll have a break for 25 minutes. So we'll resume at 20 minutes past

17 4.00. Before we do so, Mr. Re, I received a message that the original

18 estimate of three and a half hours would be reduced to one and a half

19 hours in view of 92 ter. Is that correctly understood?

20 MR. RE: The message didn't come from me.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll verify where it comes from. How much --

22 MR. RE: I think it comes via a conversation I had with

23 Mr. Emmerson this morning. I would think probably another hour. I think

24 I've been going for an hour and ten minutes or so.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, fine.

Page 3632

1 We'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.

2 MR. EMMERSON: May I --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I first will apologise.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The apologies have already been accepted.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Had received the message, and provisionally the

7 message that had come back was that Your Honour had been kind enough to

8 indicate that I could begin my cross-examination in the morning, which I'm

9 grateful for.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You'll have an opportunity to read the transcript and

11 start your cross-examination in the morning.

12 We'll resume until 20 minutes past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you may proceed.

16 But I'd first like to address you, Mr. Tetaj. I see that you've

17 got some papers in front of you. If at any moment you'd like to consult

18 these papers, would you, please, first address me and tell me what the

19 papers are and why you'd like to consult them at that moment.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the same, the same thing

21 which you gave to me, and this was the invitation you sent to me to come

22 here.


24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was written here. You can ask

25 me any question you want. I'll try to answer them as well as possible.

Page 3633

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you may proceed.

2 MR. RE: When I indicated an hour before, I might have been

3 slightly optimistic, but I'll certainly finish well within the time

4 indicated.

5 Q. Mr. Tetaj, just before the break we were talking about the meeting

6 that Mr. Haradinaj chaired, held at the house of Mehemetaj in Gllogjan.

7 My first question to you is: Why was it held in that particular house?

8 A. Look, I don't know the reason why. I only know that -- the main

9 reason was that the Serb forces -- the Serb forces had reached up to

10 Gllogjan. So Gllogjan was in a sort of -- in a circle surrounded by the

11 Serb forces. I don't know if there is any particular reason why.

12 Q. Why did Mr. Haradinaj chair the meeting?

13 A. Mr. Haradinaj was from Gllogjan. He -- his compound was once

14 attacked. His family was attacked. He protected his compound, and then

15 his village was also attacked. So probably these were the reasons why.

16 This is my opinion.

17 Q. Do you know who organised the meeting?

18 A. According to the invitation, the meeting was considered necessary

19 so that all the leaders of the villages could sit down and discuss some of

20 the current situation as well as the current developments at the time.

21 Therefore, this meeting was called to take place in Gllogjan.

22 Q. Do you know who was the person responsible for organising or

23 calling the meeting?

24 A. This was initiative of everybody who was present there, according

25 to the invitation Ramush and Mehemetaj were indeed the people who had

Page 3634

1 initiated the meeting.

2 Q. Were minutes taken of the my colleague?

3 A. Yes, yes. First Ramush addressed the meeting. He talked about

4 the current situation at the time in Gllogjan and in surrounding areas.

5 He talked about Dukagjin in the narrow sense of the region. Then also --

6 and also the minutes were written down at the time.

7 Q. Was there a person there called Kompjuteri.

8 A. Yes, there was a person nicknamed Kompjuteri. He was the person

9 who took the minutes. I have not seen the minutes. I don't know what was

10 written there. I don't know the content of the minutes.

11 Q. What's Kompjuteri's name? Where is he from?

12 A. Very late I learned about that, after a very long period of time.

13 I learned that Kompjuteri was Emrush Xhemajli.

14 Q. From where? Where is he from?

15 A. From Ferizaj.

16 Q. What was he wearing at the meeting?

17 A. He was wearing a uniform, a camouflage uniform.

18 Q. Was Togeri there?

19 A. Togeri took part. He disappeared once and then I didn't see him

20 any further.

21 Q. What was he wearing?

22 A. He was present very, very briefly. I saw him only once and then I

23 didn't see him any longer.

24 Q. What was he wearing?

25 A. Probably civilian clothes in dark colour, not camouflaged uniform.

Page 3635

1 Q. What about Ramush, what was he wearing?

2 A. Ramush was wearing camouflage uniform.

3 Q. What did he tell the meeting about the current situation at the

4 time in Gllogjan and the surrounding areas?

5 A. He informed everybody that the situation was difficult. The

6 situation was, indeed, very difficult. He told the participants that we

7 were all surrounded by the Serbs and that all the roads which linked this

8 area to Decane and Gjakove, they were roads on which there was big

9 movement of columns with heavy equipment of the Serbian army. The Serbs

10 had taken positions on most of the key positions in the region, Suka and

11 Baballoq. So the situation was difficult. Therefore, Ramush, speaking in

12 cold-bloodedness, asked the participants to defend their villages, to be

13 aware of the situation, to be mature, and to know what they should do. So

14 this is the things about which he talked to the meeting.

15 Q. How long did he speak for?

16 A. He spoke for a very long time, and then -- we also waited, in

17 fact, for a long time until everybody came together, but I don't remember

18 exactly how long he talked.

19 Q. When you say "a long time," are you measuring it in hours?

20 A. Yes, yes, in terms of hours. So that began after 8.00, 9.00 in

21 the evening. Yes, yes, I'm talking about hours.

22 Q. Did he tell the meeting about the KLA?

23 A. Yes, he talked about the founding of the army. He said it was

24 time to coordinate all the villages at that particular moment. He said

25 that -- that everybody -- that we should set up a kind of structure, a

Page 3636

1 kind of something which would command the situation.

2 Q. Who was proposed to be the overall commander?

3 A. Look, the idea was that Gllogjan should be a subordinate area. So

4 I proposed at the meeting that the area should be divided into subareas on

5 basis of village. So I proposed that four subareas should be set up.

6 Ramush and the others accepted this proposal.

7 Q. What was your proposal?

8 A. I couldn't understand your question, please.

9 Q. You proposed four subareas being set up. What were those four

10 subareas that you proposed being set up?

11 A. Yes. I was present and I proposed that the area in Dukagjin

12 should be divided into subareas. I also said that people of military

13 experience should be put in command. I proposed the establishment of zone

14 number 1 with Gllogjan; then zone number 2 should be Irzniq; zone number 3

15 should be Pozhare; and zone 4 should be the area which was divided by

16 river of Bistrica as well as the villages of Isniq.

17 Q. Let's go to zone number 1, who was to be the commander of zone

18 number 1, which was Gllogjan? Just the name, please.

19 A. It was decided that zone number 1, since this was Gllogjan, Ramush

20 Haradinaj, the commander of this zone, should be the commander. Then

21 Shemsedin Ceku was proposed to be the commander of zone 2, somebody -- he

22 was a person with military experience. Zone number 3 should be under my

23 command. And then zone number 4, which was more extensive, should be

24 placed under the command of Skender Rexhahmetaj and Gani Gjukaj.

25 Q. Can you -- Mr. Tetaj, please listen carefully to the question. I

Page 3637

1 just want to take you to each zone one by one. The first one was zone 1,

2 Gllogjan and Ramush Haradinaj --

3 A. Yes, subdivision, subarea, that's how we called it. The whole

4 zone was considered Dukagjini Plain. The proposal was that this place

5 should be decided into subzones, subareas.

6 Q. What were the physical boundaries of the Dukagjini Plain area?

7 A. Dukagjin area?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. You're talking about Dukagjin or about the subareas and the

10 villages which belong to these subareas?

11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt. I wonder whether if Mr. Re

12 is going to invite the witness to indicate the boundaries of the

13 collection of territory covered by these four subzones, whether it might

14 assist us all to have a map in front of us so the witness can give an

15 indication exactly what it is he's talking about, given the precise

16 territorial issue may be of some importance.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Also, perhaps, Mr. Re, we could be very precise on

18 what I think was at one moment called the Dukagjin Plain or -- well, at

19 least there was another word which we find already in the statements of

20 the witness. So the -- that there's no confusion whatsoever about what

21 you asked him as far as the Dukagjin Zone is concerned -- I see it's the

22 Dukagjin Plain in 41, line 7.

23 Perhaps map 10 would do and then ask the witness perhaps to draw a

24 line around the whole of the area.

25 MR. RE: It's actually the larger one I require --

Page 3638


2 MR. RE: -- and we could take an exact of that area. D32.


4 Madam Registrar, could you please put D32 on the screen.

5 Nevertheless, I take it that some zooming-in could be done, Mr. Re,

6 because otherwise, it's very large and it might be not so easy. You know

7 that zooming it later is not possible under the same number anymore.

8 MR. RE: It may be safer to give him A3 print-out and have him

9 mark on that, although I do understand e-court.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is this -- would this do as we have it here or

11 would a more limited area do as well, Mr. Re?

12 MR. RE: I'll ask the witness.

13 Q. Mr. Tetaj, can you see the map clearly on the screen in front of

14 you?

15 A. Yes, I can see it, but it's very small. Nevertheless, I will

16 indicate the boundaries.

17 Q. Is that map big enough to show the entirety of the Dukagjin Plain

18 or area or do you need a larger map?

19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, again, Mr. Re what the issue is here,

20 and the question that the witness needs to be invited to address his mind

21 to is the territory covered by the four subzones that came together, and

22 if we keep slipping between that territory and concept about the Dukagjin

23 Plain, knowing what we know about the witness's evidence as to what took

24 place later on, it's bound to confuse.

25 MR. RE: I don't understand the objection. I'm asking the witness

Page 3639

1 to look at the four subzones, which are in the larger ones, as I

2 understand.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if we start with the four subzones and ask

4 the witness to mark the subzones on the map and then you could ask him or

5 in cross-examination you could ask him whether these four subzones,

6 whether -- what that would be taken together.

7 Witness, is the map clear enough for you at this moment to

8 identify the four subzones?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see only a part, not the

10 whole. It's interrupted exactly at my village. Gllogjan is not here. It

11 should have been here.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No. We have to zoom out. We have certainly to zoom

13 out. Now to zoom in a bit. Move a bit up to the north.

14 Can you orient yourself on this part of the map as it is now and

15 just to -- just to assist you -- one second, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very weak.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could be of some assistance, Your Honour.


19 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we take Peje and move it as far up as we can, I

20 think it may be of some assistance in terms of the area that the witness

21 is speaking about.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have to identify the exact portion of the

23 map. We can't move that later on, move -- zooming in, zooming out as the

24 witness marks the map.

25 MR. RE: I can't read it myself, Your Honour. We have some hard

Page 3640

1 copies being printed --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then --

3 MR. RE: -- and brought down, maybe if I come back to it later.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- ask the witness to -- how many hard copy do you

5 have, Mr. --

6 MR. RE: We have four coming down, but he only needs one.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then I take it that we'll invite the

8 witness to mark it on the ELMO?

9 MR. RE: Yes, that's correct. I'll come back to it.


11 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I could make another suggestion, because I

12 myself on my personal map dealing with this same issue, I marked each of

13 the subzones in a different colour and it may be some assistance to the

14 Chamber at a later point in time.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You even could suggest to Mr. Re that if your

16 subzones are the same as his subzones, to show it to him and if you would

17 agree on the matter, ask the witness to confirm that. That might be a

18 practical way of doing that.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would be happy to do that.


21 Then, Madam Usher, can you please assist Mr. Guy-Smith in ...

22 MR. RE: It's fairly rough. I'd actually prefer to show the

23 witness and ask him just to draw on the map. I'm not in any way disputing

24 what Mr. Guy-Smith is saying are the areas, but it's colour-coded in a way

25 which may not necessarily be of assistance to the Court as opposed to --

Page 3641

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I take it if Madam Usher returns the map

2 to Mr. Guy-Smith and let's hope that we get a less-rough marking.

3 Then, Madam Usher, could you put the map on the ELMO so that

4 everyone can follow.

5 Mr. Emmerson.

6 MR. EMMERSON: If it's of any assistance, certainly I would have

7 no objection if Mr. Re were to lead the villages that the witness has

8 referred to in paragraphs 44 and 45 of the consolidated witness

9 statement. I'm not sure which paragraphs they are in the 92 ter.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid they're not --

11 MR. EMMERSON: They're not in the 92 ter.


13 MR. EMMERSON: But the villages are there spelled out for each

14 subzone. Paragraph 44 deals with subzone 1 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean that Mr. Re leads the witness in that

16 respect?

17 MR. EMMERSON: And put those villages to the witness specifically

18 and then -- and that will help us to mark up the boundaries of the zones.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, a lot of help from many Defence teams. Take

20 advantage if you can have any advantage from it.

21 MR. RE: I'm indebted.

22 Q. Mr. Tetaj, zone 1, according to your statement, was the village of

23 Gllogjan, Shaptej, Gramocelj, Dubrava, Babaloc, Prilep, and Rastavica, can

24 you please mark those villages on as number -- those within zone number

25 1.

Page 3642

1 A. So we're talking about the subzone, subzone number 1, because you

2 mentioned the word "zone." Zone is something bigger.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. These were all four subzones.

5 Q. I'd just like you to mark them on the map, please.

6 A. Subzone number 1 of Gllogjan, it included Gllogjan, Shaptej,

7 Dubrava, Baballoq, Prilep, Rastovice --

8 Q. Mr. Tetaj --

9 A. These were the areas.

10 Q. I want you to mark them, physically mark them on the map. Can you

11 draw a circle around the area which is subzone 1 and just put a cross on

12 the villages, please.

13 A. Oh, oh, yeah.

14 Q. Just do a circle around the subzone, put a 1 in it --

15 A. Okay, okay, I understood you now.

16 I did it.

17 Q. Okay. Next one is number 2, which according to your statement,

18 was Rznic, Gornji, Donji Ratis, Beleg, and Kodralija.

19 A. Irzniq, Ratishe, yes.

20 Q. Subzone 3, according to your statement, comprising Gornja/Donja

21 Luka, Pozar, Ljumbarda, Dasinovac, and Vranoc, under your command.

22 A. This was subzone number 3.

23 MR. EMMERSON: Again just --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --

25 MR. EMMERSON: -- pausing briefly, Mr. Re may wish also to have

Page 3643

1 regard to paragraph 48 where the witness refers to Carrabreg and Lluka e

2 Eperme as also falling in subzone 3.

3 MR. RE: Again, I'm indebted to Mr. Emmerson for his assistance

4 here.

5 Q. Carrabreg and Lluka e Eperme, were they also part of subzone 3;

6 and if so, can you mark them.

7 A. Carrabreg, no; Lluka e Eperme, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher perhaps adjust the mirror a bit so we

9 have better light.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 3?

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. Yes, number 3.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek verification. In what you have drawn as

14 subzone number 3, is -- Lluka e Eperme is already included?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it's here.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one here.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. It's within the circle in which you've circled 3. Is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Let's move to subzone 4 comprising Istinic, Papracani,

23 Gornji and Donji Streoc, Dubovik, Krusevac, and Rasic, under the command

24 of Skender Rexhahmetaj.

25 A. And also Gani Gjukaj.

Page 3644

1 Q. Gani Gjukaj is within that area you've just circled, 4. Is that

2 correct?

3 MR. EMMERSON: Gani Gjukaj, I think the witness's evidence is the

4 commander of that area. It's not a place but a person.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, both of them.

6 MR. RE: Okay. Could the map be marked for the moment?


8 Madam Registrar, that would be ...?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P266,

10 marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 I take it that the marked original will now be given to the

13 registrar so that she keeps it and that it will be uploaded soon.

14 Now, the witness in zone 1 makes an additional marking. Could the

15 witness tell us what he was actually doing at that moment.

16 Could you tell us where you - how do you say it? - you -- I don't

17 know the word in English for that, Mr. Re.

18 MR. RE: Hached.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Hached.

20 JUDGE ORIE: What that means, this area which is -- perhaps, Madam

21 Usher, could you zoom in a little bit so we know exactly what area the

22 witness was -- I think you can do it from there. Please move in a bit.

23 That is the area just east of Dubrava and Shaptej. Yes. Could you tell

24 us what you just marked.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Can I --

Page 3645


2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Listen, all the zones, all the

3 subzones were aimed at having more specific areas where the tasks could

4 specifically be asked for implementation. The subzone 1 had its

5 headquarters in Gllogjan, and it includes Gllogjan, Shaptej, Gramaqel,

6 Dubrave, Baballoq, Prilep, but not in Bektesh [as interpreted], because in

7 Bektesh it was the Serb forces who were -- had taken position there. I

8 made a small mistake, and this area which I've hached is outside the zone

9 1.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's perfectly clear now.

11 Do you need the map further, Mr. Re or can --

12 Then, Madam Usher, could you please give the map to -- so the

13 hached area is excluded from subzone 1.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I apologise, I'll stop interrupting, but

15 just to be clear, my understanding of the witness's testimony is that the

16 etched area or the hached area represents an area in which there was Serb

17 deployment.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think he also said that it -- he said it

19 includes Gllogjan, Shaptej, Gramaqel, Dubrave, Baballoq, Prilep, but not

20 in Bektesh. I understand that as Bektesh not being --

21 MR. EMMERSON: I think may be --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- but that might be Bitesh.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I think maybe Bitesh.


25 MR. EMMERSON: And he goes on to say because it was Serb forces

Page 3646

1 who had taken position there.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I make a further clarification

4 here? Listen, in Bitesh there were Serb forces.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And what you call "Bektesh," is that sometimes --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The summit of Baballoq was also

7 occupied by Serbs. Baballoq -- Baballoq is a village, but on the summit

8 of Baballoq there were Serb forces concentrated. So we must not mix the

9 summit of Baballoq with Baballoq village. Bektesh was the point where the

10 Serb artillery was deployed, and the same, I've seen for myself with my

11 own eyes in the Suka of Baballoq. So the village of Baballoq is further

12 down, whereas the Suka of Baballoq, the summit of Baballoq, is where the

13 Serb forces were concentrated, the peak of Baballoq. So we must not mix

14 the village of Baballoq with the peak of Baballoq. The village is the

15 village and the peak is the peak.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We heard evidence, similar evidence, from other

17 witnesses that on some elevations, there were Serb forces, and now my

18 question to you would be: Would you consider these elevations, these --

19 as you said, the Baballoq hill or mountain, to be part of the subzone or

20 did you just exclude that and say since this was occupied by Serb forces,

21 we did not consider this to be part of the subzone over there we had

22 control or which -- in which the territory was divided as far as your

23 forces were concerned?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. There is no doubt about

25 it, because that's where the Serb forces were concentrated. They were on

Page 3647

1 high ground and they -- that's where they posed the greatest danger.

2 The -- the peak of Baballoq and Gllogjan in aerial distance were very

3 close, and there was a con -- a high concentration of Serb artillery up

4 there and there is no more than a kilometre in aerial distance from the

5 centre of Gllogjan. And that peak was dominated by the Serbian forces.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you happen to know a name of that peak or--

7 the peak less than 1 kilometre from Gllogjan?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's called Bektesh, and are

9 you asking about which direction that is?

10 JUDGE ORIE: From what you just marked, I take it it was an

11 easterly direction, the east -- most eastern part of subzone 1. The

12 question I would have is whether that would be called, perhaps not in your

13 own language, Bitesh?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

17 It's clear for us. We have heard earlier evidence.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is Bektesh.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

20 And has Madam Registrar already assigned a -- yes.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. RE:

23 Q. Let's go back to the meeting which Ramush Haradinaj chaired which

24 the four subzone commanders were assigned. What did the meeting decide

25 about who was to be the overall commander of the four subzones?

Page 3648

1 A. It was decided that we would adopt this proposal and the

2 commanders of the subzones were the ones I mentioned, but it was also said

3 that the first subzone commander would be the overall commander and that

4 was a theoretical idea. But in practical terms for the time that things

5 were being discussed, that was impossible, because there were many things

6 missing, which I will properly elaborate on later.

7 Q. The first subzone -- the first subzone commander was Ramush

8 Haradinaj. What was meant by him being the overall commander?

9 A. No. I wanted to say that it was decided that the commander of the

10 first subzone be the representative, a representative and the one to

11 supervise all the other subzones. It was agreed that Ramush Haradinaj

12 would be the head of the regional staff of Gllogjan.

13 Q. Who were the subzone --

14 A. This was the first stage.

15 Q. Who were the subzone commanders to report to?

16 A. All the villages included under one subzone, they would report to

17 the subzone commander. And the subzone commander, depending on the

18 possibilities, report to the first subzone commander, who was the head of

19 the regional staff of Gllogjan. This was in theory, and that was agreed

20 for the moment then.

21 Q. Did that include consulting with Ramush Haradinaj before actions

22 were taken?

23 A. On the one hand you could say that, but that depended on the

24 possibilities and the circumstances. It was written on paper like that,

25 but the practical -- in practical terms it was impossible. We did not

Page 3649

1 have enough communication means. It was impossible then. That's why it

2 was decided unanimously that we would have these subzones under one

3 commander each so that they could handle the situation in their respective

4 subzones.

5 Q. How did you communicate with the village commanders in your

6 subzone? Please make your answer as brief as possible.

7 A. By courier, by courier.

8 Q. What sort of courier?

9 A. People who were assigned. Each village had its own local staff,

10 as it were, and it -- depending on the circumstances, those people were

11 asked to carry out the task.

12 Q. Now, from that meeting that you've referred to in May, 1998, were

13 you within the KLA and an organised structure within the KLA, as a subzone

14 commander?

15 A. From the moment that I came back from the meeting and set up my

16 own staff, I knew that I was in the ranks of the KLA. From that moment

17 that the subzones were agreed with their last meeting towards the end of

18 May, I was part of the Kosovo Liberation Army as a commander of the

19 subzone number 3.

20 Q. What was the subordination line within the subzones and the --

21 underneath Ramush Haradinaj as the zone commander of subzone 1?

22 A. We -- depending on the situation, we organised meetings to discuss

23 what we would do further, and that always depended on the situation and

24 the circumstances, because the situation was very tense and the people

25 wanted to know what was going on. So all the villages reported through

Page 3650

1 their commanders, and depending on the situation, we met with Ramush to

2 discuss on how to defend and protect the population within our own zones.

3 This was, in simple terms, how it worked, how the subordination worked.

4 Q. Who had the final decision when you went back to discuss the

5 situation with Ramush?

6 A. We appreciated Ramush as zone commander, and we also took into

7 account his opinion and decisions, but all the decisions were taken at

8 zone -- subzone level; and we referred -- if the circumstances allowed us

9 to do, we referred upwards to what we did and how -- how we performed.

10 If you allow me, Your Honours, I would like to add something

11 here. May I?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We on -- we on paper had the powers

14 to re-organise at a military level, but the -- the circumstances were not

15 very convenient. But there are many terms being mixed up here like the

16 headquarters, the commander. Let me explain that the headquarters is a

17 military body, but you cannot call this -- you cannot use this term when

18 we did not have the appropriate structure. When we were discussing these

19 issues, we -- we had the moral authority to do this, but we -- we cannot

20 speak about the headquarters in the real military term of the word,

21 because it was just the rudimentary and I'm saying this that this was the

22 beginnings, I'm sincerely saying this.

23 I'm not trying to reduce or depreciate the role of Ramush as a

24 commander. But the word "commander" is a big word. To be commander of

25 forces, with which forces, with what weapons? We wanted to organise -- to

Page 3651

1 make an organisation which could help the population deal with the

2 circumstances. The headquarters or the staff that we're talking about,

3 they could not control the situation because the circumstances did not

4 allow them to do it. I had difficulties in going to Dashinoc. I was a

5 commander, in fact, but it was "commander." A proper commander should

6 have a proper organisation, a proper structure. Please understand the

7 situation. It's the first steps of what we intended to set up to -- not

8 to allow the situation to get out of hand, to avoid any unexpected

9 massacres.

10 Look at the map. The areas like Suka or Baballoq, Bektesh, they

11 were all under the control of the Serb forces with very heavy artillery.

12 They had a very well-organised army and they had paramilitary units, they

13 had police units, in the -- we tried to control as much as we could, but

14 we were surrounded. And in these very difficult circumstances we chose

15 this method of doing things. And the word "headquarters" and "staff" and

16 "commander," they are very big words to apply to our circumstances.

17 Let's not confuse the situation and these terms.

18 So the word "commander" and "headquarters" and "staff," they are

19 big words. We wanted to have the situation under control, but it was

20 impossible to control it because we did not have the means at our disposal

21 to do that.

22 This is what I wanted to add.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Re.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. I want to take you to another meeting in about mid-June in

Page 3652

1 Jablanica about the 21st or 23rd of June and I want to show you the

2 minutes of that meeting which is Exhibit P140. And I want you to confirm

3 when you see the exhibit whether you were actually at that meeting.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I think Mr. Re is under the

5 misapprehension. I'm happy for the witness to take off his earphones just

6 for a moment.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tetaj, could you take off your earphones just for

8 a while?

9 Mr. Tetaj, could you take off your earphones for a while. First

10 of all, do you understand English?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not understanding what's going

12 on.

13 JUDGE ORIE: First of all --

14 MR. EMMERSON: They've come off now.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But nevertheless, I would like to know whether

16 the witness understands any English.

17 Do you understand the English language?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I remove the headphones?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Wait for one second. Do you understand the English

20 language, Mr. Tetaj?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not much, a little.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I do not know what you had in mind --

23 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I --

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- if it's enough --

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sure it will be.

Page 3653

1 JUDGE ORIE: I don't -- Mr. Tetaj, you're invited to take off your

2 earphones for a second.

3 MR. RE: If it's Rznic versus Jablanica --

4 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

5 MR. RE: -- I'm aware of it and I will correct --

6 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it is, with respect, important to be

7 accurate. The leading question put at line 11 on page 55 confuses two

8 dates and two places: A meeting on the 21st and a meeting on the 23rd.

9 There are two meetings. And Jablanica with Rznic. There's a meeting

10 which the witness is now being shown the minutes of, which according to

11 his own statements, took place in Rznic on the 21st, and quite separate

12 meeting which took place on the 23rd, according to his evidence and indeed

13 according to the minutes that Your Honours have already seen in

14 Jablanica. And as I say, I've no objection to leading questions, but I do

15 object to questions put in a leading form which potentially mislead the

16 witness as to what he is looking at. I'm sure it is unintentional, but it

17 is important to be accurate.

18 MR. RE: It's entirely unintentional. I'm just -- it's just

19 eating into my time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson already admitted that, if -- that there

21 may be no intent, but keeping in mind what Mr. Emmerson said, could you

22 please put --

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Please have a look at the minutes of this meeting which --

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The witness needs to take on his headphones,

Page 3654

1 please.

2 MR. RE: I'm sorry.

3 Q. Mr. Tetaj, can you please have a look at the minutes of that

4 meeting. Was that meeting that you attended, where was it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was the meeting about?

7 A. I took part in that meeting. It's true that following the

8 engagement of many surrounding villages and the expansion of the

9 territory, so the idea propped up to set up a more-involving

10 [as interpreted] staff. So the idea was to set up the original staff of

11 Dukagjin. I took part personally in that meeting. It took place in

12 Jablanica. That was where the meeting took place.

13 Q. Whereabouts in Jablanica?

14 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. This is the consequence of the

15 misleading question that was put in the first place. It's perfectly

16 clear, with respect, that this meeting -- and if the witness had had an

17 opportunity to read both sets of minutes as he had been making his witness

18 statements, it would be clear to him. This meeting that he's being shown

19 is a meeting which took place in Irzniq, according to his own testimony,

20 and a subsequent meeting took place two days later in Jablanica. And

21 this, as I submit, is the danger of putting things inaccurately in the

22 first place. The witness is now answering questions about a meeting in

23 Jablanica which took place two days after the meeting that Your Honours

24 are looking at.

25 MR. RE: I understand the objection. The difficulty I have, if I

Page 3655

1 can state it quite frankly, is e-court, in getting the documents up on the

2 screen, it's easier to give the two documents to the witness and show it

3 to him; otherwise, time is spent scroll through different --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I do understand that sometimes it's good to

5 have two documents next to each other, but we are at this moment asking

6 questions about P140, and whatever happens, if that is on the screen and

7 if you put questions, they should be about the meeting that is reflected

8 in P140. But if you want to proceed in another way to avoid -- but to

9 blame e-court for this is not something I could immediately follow.

10 Please proceed.

11 MR. RE: It's just a time issue, Your Honour.

12 If I could give the witness the two documents, P140 and P141.

13 Q. They're the minutes of two meetings, one on the 21st of June and

14 one on the 23rd of June, 1998. Firstly go to the document on the 21st of

15 June, 1998.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And just to assist us, Mr. Re, that would be number

17 P?

18 MR. RE: 140, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: 140, yes.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. Just so there's no confusion, Mr. Tetaj, is that a meeting that

22 you attended?

23 A. It's the first time I'm looking at this document in Irzniq;

24 nevertheless, I took part in that meeting. It was a working meeting. It

25 was not a meeting that set up staff. I'm not sure that all the people

Page 3656

1 whose names are mentioned here took really part. It is the first time I

2 am looking at such document. I haven't seen this document. On the other

3 hand, I've seen the other one, that's a meeting of Dukagjin staff, it's

4 the working meeting of the Dukagjin staff, where the staff was set up.

5 Q. And that's the one on the 23rd of June, 1998?

6 A. Yes. This other one took place on 21st of June, but as far as I

7 remember, on 21st -- on 22nd of June, the Jablanica meeting took place as

8 well. So these were two meetings which were very, very close to each

9 other. A long time has passed since then. I don't remember taking --

10 having all these activities taking part so close. Probably there is a

11 mistake with the date, probably it should not be 21, probably it was on

12 21st, but I don't remember well.

13 Q. That was the one in Rznic. Whereabouts was it held?

14 A. The working meetings took place in the school building, the

15 elementary school in Irzniq. Now, however, this document which I have in

16 my hand, I don't remember seeing it before. However, I remember that all

17 the meetings which took place on the situation were, indeed, held in

18 the -- in the building of the school.

19 MR. EMMERSON: For the record, the comment I made earlier about

20 the witness having given an account of this document is to be found at

21 paragraph 50 of the consolidated witness statement where he apparently was

22 shown this document on an earlier occasion.

23 MR. RE: Is that cross-examination?

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's assisting, as far as I understand. But

25 let's move on, Mr. Re.

Page 3657

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. The meeting -- was Ramush Haradinaj at that meeting? That's the

3 one in Rznic.

4 A. Yes, but I'm still not sure. It is the first time I'm looking at

5 this document. Yes, sure, he was there. I was there too -- some of the

6 names I'm seeing here, I don't remember them being present, like Cina

7 [phoen] major, I don't know who these people were. Ramush, Shemsedin,

8 Faton, yes, everybody knew them. This -- I see the names here. For

9 example, Lahi, he was never present there.

10 Q. Okay, Mr. Tetaj --

11 A. I haven't seen them.

12 Q. Mr. Tetaj, what I want you to do is listen carefully to the

13 question. The question I asked you was whether Mr. Haradinaj was there.

14 Will you please just confine yourself to the question asked; we'll finish

15 much more quickly. Okay.

16 Now let's move to the second document, which is the meeting of the

17 23rd of June, 1998.

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. What can you say about the accuracy of the minutes which are in

20 your hand?

21 A. Yes. I see the date here. It was held by the end of June. This

22 was a working meeting --

23 Q. Mr. Tetaj, what can you say about the accuracy of the minutes of

24 the meeting? Please read it to yourself and comment on the accuracy of

25 what's recorded there.

Page 3658

1 A. Yes, I understood you now.

2 MR. EMMERSON: For the record, given that it's not showing on

3 e-court, may the record show that Mr. Re's showing the witness P141. Your

4 Honours will recall that there's a typed minute of the same meeting which

5 is P142.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this document, I

8 could say that this was a document on this meeting. The original staff

9 of -- original was transformed into the original staff of Dukagjin;

10 however, the -- as far as the presence of people are concerned, most of

11 them here, I could say -- tell you with certain confidence that they were

12 not there. For example, Daut Haradinaj, he was not there at this

13 meeting. Here you can see Daut in two places. Shemsedin Tolaj [phoen]

14 and Cekaj. So I'm sure that Daut was not there, so the meeting really

15 took place, and at that meeting the original staff of the region of

16 Dukagjin was set up.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Where was the meeting held?

19 A. Meeting was held in the village of Jablanica.

20 Q. Where?

21 A. In a private house.

22 Q. Whose house?

23 A. As far as I remember, in the house of Lahi Brahimaj.

24 Q. Did you know him before then?

25 A. Lahi Brahimaj?

Page 3659

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. I had seen him only once before, passing -- in passing.

3 Q. Did Mr. Haradinaj preside over this meeting?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was there a person there called Major Sali Veseli?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was he and why was he there?

8 A. He is an officer of military career. He had come there to

9 contribute to the war. He had come -- he came two or three days before,

10 and then he joined the UCK. I know him. We were in the military academy

11 together in the artillery branch.

12 Q. What about Rexhep Selimi, Selimi, was -- who was he and was he

13 there?

14 A. The first time I heard Rexhep Selimi was there. I hadn't seen him

15 before the meeting. He took part in the meeting, but I'm not sure in what

16 capacity he was there in the meeting. It's true that Rexhep Selimi was

17 present, but as I said, I'm not sure about the capacity, in what capacity

18 he was there in -- at the meeting.

19 Q. Was he a member of the KLA General Staff or headquarters?

20 A. All the time, since I joined the army, throughout the contacts I

21 had with Ramush Haradinaj, I never saw with my eye the -- a General Staff

22 of the UCK. I heard about the existence, but I didn't see the people

23 belonging to the staff. Now, after so many years, I can say now that

24 Rexhep Selimi was a member of the General Staff of the KLA. But if you go

25 back to that day, he did not declare that he was member of that staff. So

Page 3660

1 I didn't know, so that's why I'm telling you that I didn't know in what

2 capacity he was present at that meeting.

3 Q. Was there a name change of the regional area at that meeting,

4 regional headquarters, I mean?

5 A. Before we had the original headquarters of Gllogjan, and at that

6 meeting it was decided that this would be transformed into the original

7 headquarters of Dukagjin Plain.

8 Q. Were commanders appointed or elected at this meeting?

9 A. Yes. Different proposals were made at the meeting. It was

10 proposed that the commander of the staff of Dukagjin Plain, it was

11 proposed by Veseli that Ramush Haradinaj would be the head. Then Selimi

12 proposed that Lahi should be the head of this staff. Then later,

13 unanimously it was decided that the commander of Dukagjin staff should be

14 Ramush Haradinaj, based on his experience, based on what he had done, and

15 all the arguments for that were given by Veseli, by Sali Veseli.

16 Q. Was Sali Veseli given a position?

17 A. Yes, true. Sali Veseli was appointed commander of the staff.

18 Q. What about Faton Mehemetaj?

19 A. Operational staff. Yes, Faton Mehemetaj was appointed as

20 intelligence chief.

21 Q. Who was the deputy commander?

22 A. A deputy commander was Lahi Brahimaj at that meeting. It was

23 first proposed that Lahi would -- should become commander of the General

24 Staff, but this was not accepted and he was then appointed to the task of

25 deputy commander of the staff.

Page 3661

1 Q. Where was this new headquarters to be based?

2 A. It was decided that the new headquarters should be again stationed

3 in Gllogjan.

4 Q. Was there a military action in -- on about the 28th of May, 1998,

5 in Vranoc involving the MUP and the VJ coming from the direction of Pec?

6 A. Yes, there was an attack. It's true. By the end of -- at the end

7 of May, so this meeting took place later, but at the end of May, on 28th

8 of May, at the end of May probably, I don't remember exactly the date,

9 there was an attack in the early hours of the morning. It was an attack

10 coming from Baran against the village of Vranoc. Vranoc belonged to my

11 subzone. I was informed about that attack from a messenger. He told me

12 that the village had been -- had been surrounded from all quarters. I

13 took measures in order to get people mobilised and sent people to

14 assistance by sending people to Vranoc. The attacks continued from early

15 hours in the morning until 6.00 in the evening.

16 We had people injured, we had people -- civilians who were

17 killed. The Serbs used all kind of heavy artillery. They used also

18 shelling. The village mosque was ruined. Many houses were ruined, and

19 then the village came to a halt at about 6.00 in the evening. The Serbian

20 forces retreated. They went back for where they came from. And then they

21 attacked Dubovik and then they went and attacked Irzniq. So there were

22 heavy attacks. Then I remembered that a soldier of my subzone was killed,

23 his name was Avni Poduxhaj [phoen].

24 Q. How many soldiers did you have under your command at that point?

25 A. We didn't have exact numbers. Each village had its own

Page 3662

1 organisation. It was difficult for me to know the number of the soldiers

2 in each village. In Vranoc, with the military structure they had, they

3 put up some resistance. They organised some resistance from --

4 Q. I'm not asking you that. Please listen to the question I'm asking

5 you. The question I asked you is how many soldiers you had under your

6 command. What I'm trying to get from you is how many people you sent to

7 Vranoc. Can you answer that?

8 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, with the greatest of respect, the witness

9 seemed to have been right in the middle of answering a question: "How

10 many soldiers did you have under your command?" To which he

11 responded: "We didn't have exact numbers," and was explaining why that

12 was. It doesn't, with respect, seem an entirely fair criticism.

13 MR. RE: It's not a criticism. I'm just trying to direct him so I

14 can get through this more quickly.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Re, it's known from many behaviourial

16 sciences that positive guidance sometimes serves the purpose better than a

17 negative remark. Please proceed.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. Mr. Tetaj, to assist the Trial Chamber and to enable us to

20 complete your testimony as quickly as possible, I'd really appreciate it

21 if you could assist us all by answering the question as directly as

22 possible. Now, what I'm interested in just here is how many people you

23 sent to Vranoc. Are you able to answer that?

24 A. I'm ready to answer, but it was very difficult for us to know the

25 exact numbers, because they were volunteers. I can give you an example.

Page 3663

1 For example, by means of a lorry of a private owner, who I met at the

2 bridge of Pozhare, when I told him that Vranoc had been attacked, people

3 voluntarily turned up. It was not that I had a barracks full of

4 soldiers. We hadn't reached that stage. We got people from other

5 villages, so we're talking about 20, 30 soldiers, volunteers, and we went

6 there to help.

7 Q. Okay. Thanks. That was --

8 A. Not to say they were soldiers; they were not.

9 Q. All right. The 20 to 30 was the figure I was after from you,

10 Mr. Tetaj, if you can just take that as positive encouragement to shorten

11 your answers in that respect. The next --

12 A. They were volunteers. They were volunteers.

13 Q. Were they armed volunteers?

14 A. Yes, armed to the extent that their possibilities allowed them

15 to. But the people were willing to come and help in difficult moments

16 when assistance was required.

17 Q. What were they armed with?

18 A. Somewhat -- someone had a hunting rifle, someone had a

19 semi-automatic weapon, someone had a grenade, a hand-grenade. This was

20 it.

21 Q. Were they uniformed?

22 A. At that time when I went there, no one had a uniform because they

23 didn't have it.

24 Q. When they participated in action against the Serbs, the MUP and

25 the VJ, were they uniformed -- were they wearing uniforms, that is, in the

Page 3664

1 attack in Vranoc?

2 A. Who? Are you talking about our side?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. There is no translation.

5 Q. We missed your answer. Were --

6 A. There is no translation.

7 Q. Were these --

8 JUDGE ORIE: You did not hear the question or there's even no

9 translation?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear the question.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat the question, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Were the 20 to 30 volunteers wearing uniforms when they went to

14 Vranoc and the Serbs were there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I'm going to ask you about military actions you undertook. When

17 you undertook military actions, did Ramush Haradinaj ever order you to

18 undertake military actions?

19 A. When Vranoc was attacked, all day I had no contact with him. I

20 wanted to get in touch with him, I wanted to contact him, but I had no

21 possibility because time did not allow me to try and do that.

22 Q. In general in the period from May 1998 onwards, when you were

23 commanding the subzone, did Ramush Haradinaj ever order you to undertake

24 any military actions?

25 A. In our working meetings, because we risked being attacked by the

Page 3665

1 Serb forces, we agreed to undertake certain operations on the road, for

2 example, leading to Decane and so on. I can't remember.

3 Q. Did you undertake military or order military actions on your own?

4 A. Yes, I have. That's true. In upper Luka and in Vranoc, as I

5 said, without Ramush knowing that I was doing it.

6 Q. When you undertook other military actions, did you consult Ramush

7 Haradinaj before you did so?

8 A. Sometimes probably yes, but the possibilities were very few. So

9 when we undertook any action, at the end probably we informed him and he

10 also made suggestions. But we did not wait to hear from him before we

11 acted. Time was very precious.

12 Q. Did Mr. Haradinaj ever order you to attack every military convoy

13 or police patrol that you noticed on a road?

14 A. The communication between Peje and Decane was more frequent and it

15 was used by the Serb forces. That road was used by the Serb forces, and

16 we had to decide what we were going to do. And because of the

17 consequences of any such attack, we decided not to act.

18 Q. What I was asking you was whether Mr. Haradinaj had ever ordered

19 you to attack every military convoy or police patrol that came on the

20 road?

21 A. I can't remember, I can't remember. I cannot remember. Maybe.

22 But it's a long time and I cannot remember.

23 Q. When you say "maybe," do you remember making a statement to the

24 Office of the Prosecutor in 2002 in which you referred to that -- those

25 particular orders?

Page 3666

1 A. Maybe, because then there was a shorter period of time from the

2 time that action had taken place, so maybe, yes.

3 Q. Was your memory fresher of the events in 2002 when you made the

4 statement than it is now?

5 A. Of course. Now it's about ten years.

6 Q. Did any of your soldiers or units attack any MUP or VJ patrols on

7 that road?

8 A. We had our main points from where we defended our subzone from

9 attacks. The main point was the upper Luka, and the soldiers in our

10 positions -- so the Serb soldiers were just a hundred metres away from our

11 positions, and we had exchanged fire. But I don't remember such an attack

12 having taken place. They have attacked -- they attacked us and we

13 responded, and we did that from our own positions, which we had

14 fortified. We had fortified our positions in through there it all

15 happened.

16 Q. Did soldiers under the command of Mr. Haradinaj attack MUP or VJ

17 patrols or convoy on the road?

18 A. That happened in the village of Rastovice where -- Rastovice,

19 Rastovice is the name of the village where we took control. That's where

20 we cut off the road, and it was for a long time in our control.

21 Q. I'm asking about Mr. Haradinaj's soldiers. Is that what you're

22 answering?

23 A. That -- that -- the road was cut off and I was in -- told that it

24 was attacked, but the road was cut off, yes.

25 Q. Was there a difference in approach between you and Mr. Haradinaj

Page 3667

1 about attacking VJ and MUP patrols or convoys on the road? If you could

2 answer that yes or no, I would be very grateful, and depending on the

3 answer, I'll move to the next question.

4 A. Yes, yes. The time it was the same, same opinion, same approach.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you announced that you would move to your

6 next question, but looking at the clock, I would first like to have a

7 break.

8 Before the break I would like to ask Madam Usher to escort the

9 witness out of the courtroom.

10 Mr. Tetaj, we'll have a break for approximately 20 minutes. We'll

11 have a break for approximately 20 minutes. Madam Usher will escort you

12 out of the courtroom.

13 Before we have that break, Mr. Re, I -- I was really lost a bit

14 about the two meetings, 21st of June and 23rd of June, the first one in

15 Rznic and the other one in Jablanica. I had no problems with the second

16 one. I -- on P140 I desperately was looking for the date of that

17 meeting. It took me a while to find out that where there is handwritten

18 place and date mentioned in the original, that the draft translation which

19 we find in the system does not translate place and date of this meeting.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: So then I finally understood why I was lost. Could

22 you take care that we have a full translation, although I like personally

23 to reduce that to the absolute necessary. Then there was -- yes.

24 There was another matter. You asked the witness whether he had a

25 better memory in 2002 when he gave his statement in which something was

Page 3668

1 referred to. That is not in evidence, I take it that you're aware of

2 that, so that we now know that the witness's memory in 2002 was better and

3 that he made some reference to something at that time. If you would

4 intend us to take that portion of the 2002 statement as the basis for a

5 refreshed memory to which he now -- then I had a problem, because the

6 Appeals Chamber later will not find any 2002 statement admitted into

7 evidence.

8 MR. RE: No. I intend to get the Albanian of the original and

9 show it to the witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or --

11 MR. RE: Subject to --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Or read the relevant portion to him. But you then

13 moved on, so I wondered --

14 MR. RE: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- what exactly you had in mind at that moment.

16 MR. RE: No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But I see that you have --

18 MR. RE: Yeah. I didn't have it with me; that was the issue.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That was the issue.

20 Then we'll have a break and resume at quarter past 6.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.

25 MR. RE:

Page 3669

1 Q. Mr. Tetaj, I'm going to ask you now about Toger. What was your

2 understanding about Toger's activities in the Dukagjin area?

3 A. First of all I would like to clarify one thing. I heard that

4 Toger from other people and I read it in books, I never knew that he was

5 called Toger at the time. We used -- we had contacts, but I never knew

6 his name. I learnt about that after the war. Second, I met him when I

7 met Ramush Haradinaj. Third, Toger was never present in the meetings we

8 had with Ramush. From the moment when the headquarters, original

9 headquarters in Gllogjan was established, Togeri was there only for a few

10 minutes and then he disappeared. He was in Irzniq.

11 Q. Okay. I'll stop you there --

12 A. This is all I knew about him.

13 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you some questions. Now, were you aware

14 of a unit called the Black Eagles? Just yes or no.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Were they based in Rznic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was their commander?

19 A. Togeri.

20 Q. What did they wear?

21 A. Black civilian clothes.

22 Q. Civilian clothes or uniforms?

23 A. They were kind of civilian clothes. They were not military

24 uniforms. They were black civilian clothes.

25 Q. Did they have KLA insignia?

Page 3670

1 A. Yes, they did, on the right side. They had the insignia of the

2 KLA.

3 Q. How many were there?

4 A. At first they were few, maybe 30, 35. They were a unit.

5 Q. Did you hear yourself about the kidnapping or killing of Albanian

6 Serbs in Roma in the Dukagjin area in 1998?

7 A. I haven't seen them. I heard about that. It was like a secret, a

8 public secret, everything which happened in Dukagjin. If it was not

9 proved, then everybody said that this was done by Togeri; however, this is

10 only hearsay and there is nothing confirmed. This is what we heard, and

11 that was how it happened. Everything bad that happened, it was attributed

12 to the Toger.

13 And I would like also -- I would like to say something else, that

14 Toger was not somebody who was known to the population. He came to assist

15 in the war, so people mentioned his name but they did [as interpreted]

16 know him personally.

17 Q. Why were people blaming Toger were these activities?

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Objection. That calls for speculation on the part

19 of this witness, unless he has personal knowledge.

20 MR. RE: I'll rephrase the question.

21 Q. What led you to understand were the reasons why people were

22 blaming Toger for all these activities?

23 A. As I said before, and I'm confirming this now in the courthouse, I

24 do not want to speak about this; however, you insisted asking me what I

25 heard from other people. I heard about the uniform, the black uniform,

Page 3671

1 and then everything which happened, as I said, was attributed to the

2 Toger. But this is what I heard.

3 Q. Did Toger have a notebook?

4 A. Yes, he had one. I had one. There was some names in the

5 notebook. There was also the name of Faik Gecaj in the notebook, who was

6 in charge of getting supplies. I saw the name. Togeri talked to me. He

7 asked me -- I saw also other names, this was by chance, however I cannot

8 confirm it.

9 Q. Whose names were in Toger's notebook?

10 A. I saw two or three names by chance at a spontaneous meeting. When

11 we talked about Faik I saw the names of Zek Senani [phoen] and Njeta

12 [phoen], Musa Berisha, that's normal, Faik, he is still alive, and these

13 were the names which I could see, as far as I remember.

14 Q. Why were their names in Toger's notebook?

15 A. I didn't ask him, but before the Toger came there was some lists

16 drawn up in some villages. These were lists drawn up for personal

17 reasons. These were lists drawn up to compromise people, but these were

18 not the lists drawn up by the Toger. These were lists drawn up by other

19 people but they were attributed to the Toger. I'm not saying that this

20 was done by Ramush; however, in some villages there were some people who

21 belonged to political parties, they had political differences among each

22 other. So probably this could be the reason for the lists.

23 Q. Well, did Toger have a notebook in which he recorded the names of

24 people he was looking for?

25 A. Yes, he had a notebook, I saw it, but I don't know whether the

Page 3672

1 names of the people were in this notebook for that reason which I

2 mentioned or for some other reason or whether they were people who

3 belonged to the unit, to his unit. I don't know the reason exactly why

4 the names were there.

5 Q. Why did --

6 A. But I saw the notebook and I also saw the names I mentioned. But

7 I don't know the reason. Probably they were the people who belonged to

8 his unit, the Black Eagles.

9 Q. All right. Why was Faik Gecaj in that list, in that book that

10 he -- that you saw when you met him spontaneously?

11 A. Faik Gecaj was from my village. He was someone who came from

12 abroad. Faik went several times to Albania and came back, so I don't

13 know. I -- when I talked to him about this, he explained me something but

14 I don't remember. It was a long time before.

15 Q. You've made two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor in

16 which you've gave us reasons why the name was in the book. I'd just like

17 you to cast your mind back to the reasons you gave the Prosecutors when

18 you signed the two statements. Why did Toger tell you that Faik Gecaj's

19 name was in that book?

20 A. Toger said nothing. I was there and I saw the name and then we

21 had this conversation. The Toger asked me about this person.

22 Q. What was --

23 A. And then I explained to him. I told him that it's a good, capable

24 person.

25 Q. Does it jog your memory if I tell you that you told us and signed

Page 3673

1 the statement saying that he told you that Faik Gecaj was on the list of

2 wanted persons because he was dealing with smuggling weapons for himself

3 and not for the UCK?

4 A. Probably I said so, but this was the name in the notebook, not in

5 the list that -- anyway, I don't remember exactly.

6 Q. And do you remember telling the Prosecution and signing two

7 statements saying that you knew that Togeri had a notebook in which the

8 names were recorded of people he was looking for?

9 A. I know that the Prosecutor office asked me about the Toger. I

10 explained to them many things. Nevertheless, I don't know really about

11 the -- the way I was asked. I -- so we are -- they asked me about Faik, I

12 explained to them what I knew about him, and also I explained to them

13 about other names which I saw accidentally in the notebook.

14 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber about someone called Hulaj, H-u-l-a-j, a

15 villager from Prilep --

16 A. Hulaj, yes, yes.

17 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what you know about Hulaj and Toger.

18 A. It's a fact that there was an incident in the village of Irzniq

19 [Realtime transcript read in error "Isniq"]. A peasant who was going with

20 his car from Prilep to Irzniq. There was an incident. Hulaj was injured

21 with a fire-arm by Toger. I haven't seen it with my own eyes. I was told

22 about them. I informed Ramush about this. Ramush said that he should

23 talk to Toger about this, how it happened.

24 Q. What did you hear about how Toger injured this man with his

25 fire-arm?

Page 3674

1 A. So I heard that he was stopped, he was asked about his identity.

2 Then there was a confrontation. This incident then happened as Hulaj

3 tried to come out of the car. He was injured. There were some other

4 people of his village in his car. This is what I know. I don't remember

5 the name.

6 Q. Do you recall telling the Prosecution and signing a statement to

7 the effect that: "They were stopped by Toger in the village of Rznic.

8 When Hulaj got out of the car, Toger immediately shot him in the leg"?

9 A. As I said, I said the same thing a few moments ago, the same

10 thing, no different. So I don't know how -- why do you ask me the same

11 question? I said -- I told you what I heard, not things which have not --

12 which I've seen with my eyes, no.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. May I interrupt. For the name of this

14 village, was this Rznic or Isniq?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Irzniq, not Isniq.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. So it was a peasant who was going with

17 his car from Prilep to Rznic, was that already the same name?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Prilep to Irzniq because Prilep

19 is close and then there were also Serbian forces in the main road. So

20 many families had displaced from Prilep and they lived in Irzniq.

21 However, after they came to the centre, I mean this car came to the centre

22 of Irzniq. This is what I heard. I was not there. So this incident

23 happened, this -- I confirmed this is an incident which happened against

24 our desire. It was a very bad thing which happened. However, how it

25 happened, I don't know whether he came out of the car or at another

Page 3675

1 particular moment, this I don't know. Whether this was done deliberately

2 or not, this is also something else which I don't know, but I remember

3 that I talked with Ramush on this incident and then Ramush told me that he

4 would talk to the Toger about what happened.

5 So the reason really I don't know -- I don't know whether it was

6 deliberate or not. There was -- there were also -- as far as I heard,

7 there was some old people in the car. So there was no real reason for the

8 Toger to go and kill old Albanian people. However, this incident

9 occurred, that's for sure.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Very well.

11 Mr. Re, please.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. I'll ask you about another incident involving Toger, this time

14 with Musa Berisha who was the president of the Council for the Protection

15 of Human Rights and Freedom in Decani around the same period, that is

16 around June, 1998. Tell the Trial Chamber what you know about --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- Mr. Berisha being stopped in Rznic by Toger and his soldiers.

19 A. Again, this is something about which I heard. Berisha told me

20 that he went to Irzniq with his car. He wanted to go to Gllogjan. Then

21 there was this incident there, nobody was killed. However, some -- there

22 was an exchange of fire. I cannot confirm that this was done by the

23 Toger, so this case also occurred. Nobody was injured as a matter of

24 fact. Musa Berisha turned back his car. The tires were flat, the tires

25 of the car were flat, that's it.

Page 3676

1 Q. You just said there was an exchange of fire. Did Mr. Berisha tell

2 you that people in his car fired or it was only Toger and his soldiers who

3 fired?

4 A. I don't want -- I didn't want to say there was an exchange of

5 fire. In fact, Berisha had no weapon. He was a civilian. He went

6 there. And then Berisha returned and he came to my house. We met there,

7 and very briefly he explained to me what had happened. I did not consider

8 it so tragic because there was no casualty. But Berisha had nothing, had

9 no weapon. He was only a civilian.

10 Q. Were there villages in the third and fourth subzone in which Toger

11 and his unit were not allowed access?

12 A. Yes, it's true, especially in Irzniq and in Bistrica, there were

13 some people for whom the Toger was not very welcome. So he is not welcome

14 to go to these places. This happened because they were afraid because

15 they thought that if the Toger would come and the Serb forces would come

16 later, and then the population would become a target.

17 Q. Were Toger and his men entering villages looking for people who

18 were "wanted"?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was that why villagers prevented them -- tried to prevent them

21 from entering the villages?

22 A. Look, I must explain something else. Before Togeri there was

23 another person, Uku -- Uka, he was before Togeri, and he left. Togeri

24 came a bit later. And when you asked me about who was in -- who

25 interrogated me, there was another person by the name of Uka and there are

Page 3677

1 many things which we -- was involved in and they are now be attributed to

2 Togeri.

3 Q. Were Toger and his men known for their brutality?

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm not clear as to whether or not he's

5 asking for personal knowledge or rumour, gossip, at this point were they

6 known for their brutality, that's --

7 JUDGE ORIE: The question is --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was more dynamic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. We'll further find out what

10 the witness will tell us.

11 The question was whether Toger and his men were known for their

12 brutality.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Togeri was described as such at the

14 time. Everything that was happening, the worst things that were happening

15 there -- then were attributed to Togeri, although he may not have been at

16 that site. So there is nothing specific which I have seen with my own

17 eyes. So I'm -- I'm just asking both Your Honours and the Prosecution to

18 ask me about things which I have seen with my own eyes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us -- you said Togeri was

20 described as such. Could you tell us by whom.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all villages, rumours were spread

22 that it was Togeri who was the source of this and that. But I cannot

23 confirm anything because I haven't seen anything like that. It was being

24 commented on like that, but as to the reality I don't know. It's true

25 that he was more dynamic and he was more serious in his tone and that is

Page 3678

1 probably why people reached that conclusion. There was a lot of rumours

2 going around that he did this and he did that, but I have not seen

3 anything and do not know exactly anything of the sort. So I cannot

4 confirm it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You said he was more dynamic. Could you tell us what

6 you exactly meant by that.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was more enthusiastic. He was

8 cool, but he was, by nature and his looks, like that. The image that

9 people were talking about, it was something which they had created in

10 their heads - I don't know how.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. I'm going to ask you now about Jablanica and Skender Kuci. First

14 of all, were you aware or had you heard about there being a KLA prison

15 camp in Jablanica in mid-1998?

16 A. I know one thing which I want to explain --

17 Q. No, no.

18 A. The term "prison" needs to be explained. Please.

19 Q. What I'm asking you is if you had heard about there being a prison

20 camp there first. I will then move to something else.

21 A. A prison, what prison?

22 Q. Had you heard that there was a place in Jablanica where prisoners

23 of the KLA were being detained?

24 A. Look, I have not seen things with my own eyes --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tetaj, Mr. Tetaj, let me stop you. It's clear if

Page 3679

1 Mr. Re asks you about what you heard, you're invited to tell us what you

2 did hear and you're invited, to the extent you know or still remember how

3 you heard about it. There's no need to repeat that you didn't see

4 something with your own eyes. If you're not asked whether you saw

5 anything but what you heard about -- what you heard others telling you.

6 So the question was whether you heard that there was a place in Jablanica

7 where prisoners of the KLA were being detained, where it is --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've heard but I have not seen it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

10 Mr. Emmerson.

11 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder whether Your Honours have the statement --

12 the consolidated witness statement --


14 MR. EMMERSON: -- at hand.


16 MR. EMMERSON: I think that Mr. Re is asking in respect of the

17 first line of paragraph 80. It's -- it may be important in this respect

18 for he -- for him and perhaps for Your Honours also to note paragraph 82,

19 where in three lines up from the bottom of that paragraph a slightly

20 somewhat contradictory answer is given.

21 MR. RE: Surely that's a matter for cross-examination --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I --

23 MR. RE: -- if we don't have time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I agree with Mr. Re, Mr. Emmerson, that this

25 would have been a matter for cross-examination.

Page 3680

1 Mr. Re, please proceed.

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. I'll take you to Skender Kuci. Did you know Skender Kuci?

4 A. Never known in my life a person by that name, and I cannot -- I

5 can explain what happened.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. I don't know him.

8 Q. I want to ask you the questions, short ones, one after the other.

9 Do you know someone called Imer Jusaj? Was there an answer?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Is he from Donji Streoc?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was Skender Kuci a friend of his?

14 A. A friend, yes, that's what he told me he was.

15 Q. In July, 1998 did he come and tell you something about Skender

16 Kuci?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did he tell you?

19 A. He came to my place and told me that Skender Kuci had -- has been

20 abducted by the KLA and he's being held in Jablanica. I haven't seen such

21 a thing, but I took note of what he said and I contacted Faton Mehemetaj

22 about this.

23 Q. What did Faton Mehemetaj say?

24 A. Faton Mehemetaj told me that I need to talk to Ramush Haradinaj.

25 I went to Ramush and told him what I was told, and he had no knowledge of

Page 3681

1 what I told him. And together we went to Jablanica.

2 Q. Where did you go and see Ramush before you went to Jablanica?

3 A. To Jablanica, we went to the house of Nazmi Brahimaj.

4 Q. Was that the local KLA headquarters or a different location?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'm a bit surprised by just your next

6 question. Your previous question was: "Where did you go and see Ramush

7 before you went to Jablanica?" And then the answer is: "To Jablanica, we

8 went to the house of Nazmi Brahimaj." And --

9 MR. RE: It was for time considerations I didn't pursue it. It's

10 not of great importance. That's why I didn't pursue it, but if Your

11 Honours want me to, I can go back and ask him where he saw --

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I'm a bit surprised -- okay. Then now I

13 better understand that it was not of such relevance to pursue the matter.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Was that the KLA headquarters you went to in Jablanica?

17 A. With Ramush we went there. It was a house. It's called a fort

18 from our people there. It was the local staff which was based there.

19 Q. Who did you see there, you and Ramush?

20 A. Both with Ramush we met Nazmi Brahimaj.

21 Q. Did you speak to him?

22 A. Yes, we spoke with him. We didn't have much time because the

23 situation on the ground was very serious and Ramush told him that this

24 person should be released immediately and we returned.

25 Q. Did Nazmi Brahimaj tell you and Ramush why this person was in --

Page 3682

1 why Skender Kuci was being detained?

2 A. Ramush Haradinaj knew nothing about it until the moment that I

3 told him, and immediately after that Ramush gave the ultimatum that this

4 person should be immediately released and he said no such thing should

5 happen anymore because this is damaging our cause.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tetaj, could you please carefully listen to the

7 question. The question was whether Nazmi Brahimaj told you and Ramush why

8 Skender Kuci was being detained. So what Brahimaj told you about that,

9 reason for detention.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What did he tell you?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told us that he tried to escape

13 when one of the soldiers had injured him slightly, and he said that he

14 would be released as soon as he's [indiscernible] well.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Was he released?

17 A. We waited three, four days and we met with Ramush [as interpreted]

18 and his uncle came and said that Kuci has not come back home. And then,

19 together with Ramiz we went to Jablanica and we met Ibrahimaj again.

20 Q. Who is Ramiz?

21 A. Ramiz Berisha.

22 Q. Is that Skender Kuci's uncle?

23 A. No, I don't know whether Skender is his uncle or is it on the

24 mother's side or on the father's side? I don't know. They are related.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise, but I'm slightly concerned about

Page 3683

1 line 8, page 85, line 8, as to whether there may have been a mishearing or

2 a mistranslation and whether the witness intended to use the name that

3 appears there on the transcript, because I see just a couple of lines

4 later he uses a name that sounds very similar.


6 MR. EMMERSON: Some clarity on that, if I may.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you answered on a question whether Skender

8 Kuci was released, you started your answer by saying: "We waited three,

9 four days and we met ..."

10 Could you please repeat what you then said. You met with whom?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After three, four days, Ramiz

12 Berisha came to my house and me and Ramush, after we came back from the

13 first meeting, we knew that he was going to be released. But Ramiz

14 Berisha came to tell me that he hadn't been released.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That sufficiently clarifies the issue.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. How many times did you go back to see Nazmi Brahimaj about Skender

19 Kuci?

20 A. The first time after we went there with Ramush, when Ramush knew

21 nothing about the case, then we went with Ramiz and Nazmi Brahimaj

22 confirmed that Kuci had been sent to the make-shift hospital in Irzniq.

23 But because of the lack of medical means, they had not succeeded in saving

24 his life. So they have buried him near a forest in Jablanica.

25 Q. Did you go to the grave?

Page 3684

1 A. Then together with Ramiz Berisha, we went and he confirmed it to

2 Kuci's family. And then we discussed with Brahimaj to unter

3 [as interpreted] the corpse in order to pass it on to the family, but it

4 was very difficult to take the corpse to the family because of the

5 military situation on the ground. But we decided to take the corpse for

6 reburial in Dobrin [phoen]. This was the second time that I went there

7 after the one with Ramush.

8 Q. Did you assist in exhuming his body from the forest in Jablanica?

9 A. No, I did not help but I was present. They said that I helped but

10 I was present. I did not help. I was present when the grave was re --

11 was opened.

12 Q. Whereabouts was the grave in relation to the UCK headquarters in

13 Jablanica, how far from it was it?

14 A. If you've gone from Zhabel to Jablanica, it's on the right-hand

15 side on the edge of a forest. It's a kilometre or so.

16 Q. How did you know where the grave was?

17 A. We were told on the day when we went there. The people were

18 prepared and people signalled, because it was night, that they were going

19 to be there. They used a torch to signal to us where they were.

20 Q. Why did you go there at night?

21 A. Because we agreed to unbury the corpse to take it to the family.

22 Q. Why did you go there at night as opposed to during the day and why

23 did people have to signal a torch for you?

24 A. We went there during the day but there was a lot of pressure from

25 the attacks on us on the ground, and then we agreed that we were going to

Page 3685

1 do that later in the evening.

2 Q. What do you mean by "attacks on us on the ground"? Who was

3 attacking and who is "us"?

4 A. The Serbian forces were shelling all day, and it was very

5 unpleasant and unenviable situation on the ground and it was not easy to

6 move around freely.

7 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown 65 ter Exhibit --


9 MR. RE: -- 1330.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'm looking at the clock, it's one minute to

11 7.00. I tried to find out at earlier moments how much time you would

12 need, and it's -- you're just going on as if time, apart from the one

13 question you withdrew, show it to the witness, but we have to stop in the

14 next three or four minutes.

15 MR. RE: I appreciate that. I think I realistically need a leeway

16 of maybe 15 minutes in the morning, which should allow me to complete it.

17 I mean, I'm almost there. There are a couple -- that exhibit, two

18 photographs, and just a couple of other things from his earlier statement

19 and I'll be finished.


21 MR. RE: I think 15 minutes should do it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Try to do whatever you can do in the next five

23 minutes and the Chamber will consider whether there's any time left. I

24 mean, I think that the Chamber has been clear enough that it expected you

25 to finish the witness today, and the time would be considerably reduced

Page 3686

1 from the three and a half hours, whether it was one hour and a half or

2 once you had used one hour and 20 minutes, you said "I need another hour."

3 That's two hour and 20 minutes. You've had now the whole afternoon, I

4 mean, and if this would be the first time that the assessment of the time

5 you would need would be inadequate, then it might be easier for us to

6 grant another 15 minutes. Please proceed for the next four minutes.

7 MR. RE: 65 ter 1330.

8 Q. Do you recognise that on the screen in front of you as a

9 photograph of Jablanica in which you've premarked before we came to court

10 where the KLA staff headquarters were?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Are you able to --

13 A. It was -- it was a private home and it was the local staff, only

14 for Jablanica.

15 Q. Okay. Are you able to see on that map where it was that the body

16 of Skender Kuci was buried and you were present when it was dug up for

17 reburial?

18 A. You can see -- it wasn't here where this little arrow is. It --

19 near the mosque. He was buried somewhere in the area near the mosque,

20 although things have changed because there are many new houses which have

21 been built. So it's a bit difficult to spot. But it's -- it -- it's not

22 where the arrow is, that's for sure. It was somewhere near the mosque at

23 the entrance of the village on the right-hand side.

24 Q. Could you assist us or could the usher assist us by -- if you

25 could get a large -- if you get a pen and draw a large arrow --

Page 3687

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, isn't the relevance of these questions that

2 the body was buried in Jablanica rather than close to Rznic and do we have

3 to know exactly whether it was 10 metres -- I mean, what's the relevance

4 of that?

5 MR. RE: The relevance is for the Prosecution case that the person

6 died in KLA custody or was taken to a hospital or was taken back and

7 temporarily buried close to the KLA headquarters in Jablanica.


9 MR. RE: That's the relevance of it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We have that already. Without any further markings

11 we see the headquarters are there, the mosque is clearly visible on the

12 photograph. Do we have to know exactly close to what tree? I mean, but

13 if you want to demonstrate that, what does the exact location if the

14 witness says it was close to the -- close to the mosque, what would that?

15 MR. RE: The exact location -- the exact location, I'm not after.

16 It's just that when you go to look at the exhibits afterwards, if it's

17 marked on it it's a lot easier to link it back to the transcript and if

18 you have to read the transcript and look at the exhibit. That's the only

19 reason why I want an approximation on the exhibit, just for convenience.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, convenience of the Appeals Chamber. The

21 Chamber, of course, has heard the witness's testimony, but if you want to

22 use your time in that way that -- yes, could you -- then of course, the

23 marker should be given to the witness. Has the witness the marker? Yes.

24 Could you please mark on this photograph where the body was

25 buried?

Page 3688

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately here. Somewhere here.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness made a mark by a red dot close to

3 the mosque on the photograph.

4 MR. RE: Could -- just so we can all see it.

5 Q. Can you just make a large arrow, Mr. Tetaj, can you look at me for

6 a moment, just make a large arrow.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Okay. Thank you.

9 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be, the marked

11 photograph, premarked in black and marked during the testimony in red.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be P267, marked for

13 identification.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, it's five minutes past 7.00.

17 Mr. Tetaj, we'll finish for the day. We'd like to see you back

18 tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same courtroom. I want to instruct you

19 that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony you have given

20 or you're still about to give, and tomorrow you'll be cross-examined

21 perhaps after a few more questions to be put to you by Mr. Re, but at

22 least whether or not after another few minutes of questioning by Mr. Re,

23 you'll then be cross-examined by counsel for the three defendants.

24 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00, same courtroom.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

Page 3689

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of

2 May, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.