Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4302

1 Wednesday, 16 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

7 Mr. Registrar, could you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

9 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 Before -- no, there are a few procedural issues I'll deal with

12 later today but still today, that's the request by Mr. Emmerson for

13 nonsitting days in July and there's also a matter of an appeals hearing

14 which affects Mr. Guy-Smith. We'll deal with that, but first,

15 Mr. Emmerson, I'd like you -- to give you the opportunity to continue

16 your cross-examination.

17 Mr. Pappas, before we continue, I'd like to remind you, as I did

18 yesterday, that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

19 at the beginning of your testimony yesterday.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I leave it to you. I think we --

22 yesterday we finished in open session. I think it was the Kaufmann book

23 which did not ask for any private session. If that would be different,

24 please inform the Chamber.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, as soon as it's necessary to refer to any

Page 4303

1 Rule 70 material, at that stage I will ask to go into private session.



4 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]

5 Q. Mr. Pappas, I want to begin where I left off yesterday afternoon

6 by asking you one or two further questions about the incident which

7 occurred on the 11th of August.

8 Now, we have -- we have a short summary from you in the evidence

9 that you have given of the way that Mr. Haradinaj conducted himself

10 during that meeting. I want, if I may, to put on the record with you and

11 invite you to confirm the contents of your consolidated witness statement

12 where you deal with this matter. So I'm just going to read the passages

13 to you and ask you, please, to confirm that these are an accurate

14 reflection of your evidence because they don't find their way into the

15 written statement that has been admitted in evidence in this case.

16 Quotation - and I'm reading from the second half of paragraph 24, the

17 consolidated witness statement, and then on:

18 "He was absolutely calm and controlled, and in a gentle way he

19 started interrogating us one by one. He was polite. He started with

20 Penti, who was obviously shocked, frightened from the development of

21 things (Penti had been visiting our team for just that day and this had

22 happened to him). He checked his papers and only had a short discussion

23 with him. Now, I recall that he asked Penti a question about a lake in

24 Finland that was the subject of some dispute with the Russians, and Penti

25 answered him. After Penti, he asked the interpreter in Albanian a few

Page 4304

1 things; however, I'm not aware about the content of their conversation.

2 After Kastriot, he turned to me and asked me about my whereabouts and

3 occupation back home. He told me that he has no problem with Greeks,

4 although the politics of my country build-up hostile feelings in a lot of

5 his comrades. He told me that he had visited Greece several times and

6 that he has a lot of Albanian friends living there, and some of them came

7 to Kosovo to fight with him. I explained to him the circumstances in

8 which we had ended up there, meaning our presence in Rznic. I explained

9 to him our mandate and the purpose of our presence in Kosovo. It seemed

10 to me that he understood and was satisfied with my explanations.

11 Afterwards he spoke in French and English with Kaufmann."

12 And then a little further on, paragraph 26, I want to put the

13 following passage on the record:

14 "Afterwards the commander came with us to our car, and he started

15 to search it thoroughly inside and outside. He asked us if we had guns,

16 and we said no. After this he told us that we are free to go. He

17 offered us an escort out of the area, which we agreed to. He then

18 ordered the three men in the black uniform, including Idriz Balaj, who

19 had stopped us before, to escort us out of Gllogjan."

20 And then finally two lines at the bottom of paragraph 26:

21 "The whole incident lasted for about one and a half hours under

22 continuous shelling of Serbian artillery."

23 So, first of all, can I ask you, please, to confirm that that is

24 an reflection of your evidence?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 4305

1 Q. And secondly, just one or two supplementary questions. It

2 follows from that description that your impression of Mr. Haradinaj was

3 that he remained calm throughout this interchange and behaved reasonably

4 to you. Is that right?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And this was despite the fact that the village of Gllogjan and

7 the village of Irzniq were under heavy fire, and the Serbs were closing

8 in?

9 A. They were under shelling, yes. I don't know, it's our estimation

10 that the Serbs were very close, yes.

11 Q. And you know from the video you saw yesterday, that by the

12 following day they overrun Gllogjan?

13 A. Yeah.

14 Q. Now, for a commander to come away from the front line, to divert

15 himself and others from combat to deal with a group of monitors who had

16 decided to drive straight into the heart of a front line zone, would you

17 accept this is obviously a rather unwelcome distraction from the job of

18 defending people's lives in the course of the conflict?

19 A. In the way that you put it, yes.

20 Q. But nonetheless, once he had established your good faith, he not

21 only returned your documents and ensured that you could leave but gave

22 you safe passage out of the area, diverting soldiers again --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I have to ask you to slow down for the

24 interpreters. Could you perhaps, please, repeat your last question.


Page 4306

1 Q. I said: Nonetheless, once he had established your good faith, he

2 not only returned your documents and ensured that you could leave but

3 gave you safe passage out of the area, again diverting soldiers from the

4 front line to meet the needs of providing you with protection?

5 A. Exactly.

6 Q. Now, before I turn to the issues surrounding your visit to

7 Hotel Pashtrik and the Lake Radoniq canal area in September, I just want

8 to ask you one or two questions about an incident that you describe in

9 your consolidated witness statement at paragraph 14. And if I can just

10 remind you of it without asking you necessarily to turn it up. You say

11 in your consolidated witness statement that there was an incident that

12 you yourselves witnessed at the beginning of August in the countryside

13 area to the east of the main Peje-Gjakove road and south of the

14 Peje-Pristina road, where you said in your witness statement that there

15 were strange utterly deserted villages. Do you remember that expression?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You described finding the body of an Albanian man lying next to a

18 street at the entrance to the village, and you said that the body was

19 decayed and had been mutilated by animals. And then you said this, and I

20 quote from your statement:

21 "The village itself was abandoned, and it seemed that the

22 villagers as well as the KLA had retreated from there, although I should

23 point out that this was an area where we did not see armed uniformed KLA

24 soldiers with KLA insignia manning check-points. On the same day, I

25 recall we drove down a small road towards a village also in the same area

Page 4307

1 where the body was found, and suddenly we saw a Serb tank on the road

2 with its gun-barrel pointed towards us. We approached slowly and were

3 given permission to continue into the village, and in the village we saw

4 Serb soldiers looting houses and burning them. Surprisingly, they did

5 not seem anxious that we were there. This was the first and only time

6 that I saw Serbian forces away from the main roads during my time in this

7 posting."

8 Can you help us as to, first of all, where this village was that

9 you witnessed Serb forces looting and burning houses?

10 A. I don't remember the exact -- the exact location, but I can say

11 that it was on the main road, if we -- if we can take the main road as a

12 point of reference from Pec to Pristina, almost 30 kilometres away from

13 Pec and on the south. Very close to the road, we start to see abandoned

14 villages, and further -- a little bit further, we started to see these

15 images that I told you --

16 Q. It may be --

17 A. -- in my statement.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, did you say on that road from Pec to

19 Pristina almost 13 or 30 kilometres?

20 THE WITNESS: 30. 30, Your Honour.




24 THE WITNESS: 3-0.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

Page 4308


2 Q. It may be obvious, but why did it surprise you that the Serb

3 soldiers did not seem anxious that you were there?

4 A. As I stated before in other parts of my statement, when they

5 wanted to hide something, they would refuse the team to pass from

6 check-points. So we were very surprised to see that the men on the tank

7 let us pass and go into the village, and the others were looting.

8 Q. So your experience was that if the Serbs refused you access to a

9 particular area, that would generally lead you to believe that there was

10 something there at that time that they were trying to hide from your

11 view. Is that correct?

12 A. Yeah, that was the -- the feeling, yes.

13 Q. Did that happen in relation to the canal? Was there a period of

14 time when you were being denied access to the canal by the Serb police?

15 A. I'm not aware about that because the first time I heard about

16 this canal was on 17th of September, where I was in district prosecutor

17 office.

18 Q. Well, that's what I want to try to explore with you, Mr. Pappas.

19 You wrote a report to your own government, and on -- I think probably

20 even although Rule 70 has not been claimed in respect to this --

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, with respect, I think it is, and I

22 understand from Mr. Pappas that this is -- I have no problem with

23 Mr. Emmerson using it, of course, but --

24 MR. EMMERSON: It's better done in private session.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: In private session.

Page 4309

1 JUDGE ORIE: That would be just for this document?

2 MR. EMMERSON: I think from this point onwards, in fact, for a

3 while.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then -- from this point on --

5 MR. EMMERSON: For a while.

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- for a while. Yes.

7 Then we move into private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4310











11 Pages 4310-4319 redacted. Private session















Page 4320

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, has this video already received an MFI

10 number?

11 MR. EMMERSON: No, it hasn't, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar, that would be ...?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be marked for

14 identification as D66.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16 Do I understand that it's then the transcript that gets D66 and

17 that the video is attached to that?

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The video receives the number and everything

20 that -- and all the text will be attached.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Could we play the video now, please.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. EMMERSON: If I could just -- just ask to pause it for one

25 moment.

Page 4321

1 Q. Mr. Pappas, you identified yesterday a photograph which you say

2 that you took of the Gllogjan KLA HQ with a pile of rubble outside it and

3 which you told us was rubble that was not there when you visited the HQ

4 on the 11th of August. As you'll see in just a moment, this is the same

5 building. I think you can be in a position to confirm.

6 I'm going to ask you to look for images of Judge Gojkovic arguing

7 with Mr. Kaufmann and of yourself being present at the time, and I'll

8 point out to you the individual who I'm going to suggest to you is

9 yourself. If I'm wrong, obviously you'll tell me.

10 A. Okay.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Please carry on.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MR. EMMERSON: Pausing there for a moment, if you would.

14 Q. You recognise the Land Rover?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you. Carry on.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. EMMERSON: If we can just pause again for a moment.

19 Q. You recognise the building?

20 A. Yes, that's a building.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. EMMERSON: Pause there for a moment.

23 Q. The gentleman in the suit is Judge Gojkovic, I suggest, and the

24 gentleman in the hat is Mr. Kaufmann. Is that correct?

25 A. No.

Page 4322

1 Q. Could you clarify for us, please?

2 A. The man in the suit is, I believe, Cvejic.

3 Q. The other judge?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I see. And the man in the hat?

6 A. Is Kaufmann.

7 Q. Very well. Carry on.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Gojkovic is the prosecutor's name. And this

9 one is Judge Cvejic?

10 MR. EMMERSON: He is, in fact, I think, an investigating judge,

11 Judge Gojkovic, but ...

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

13 MR. EMMERSON: This is the other gentleman -- just pause.

14 Q. This is the other gentleman that you met at the Peje --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- port on the 17th for the first time?

17 A. Yes, along with Gojkovic.

18 Q. Yes, thank you.

19 [Videotape played]

20 "He said -- he said then -- then they want to open the cars

21 because you can always have the problems if -- if you're not subjective

22 or -- or something, because they are asking you from where you're in

23 Kosovo and -- well, do you know where the headquarters was? You said no,

24 and then you are coming to the headquarters.

25 "Yes, I said we were -- I said we were somewhere.

Page 4323

1 "Excuse me. Is this something which goes into TV?"

2 MR. EMMERSON: Pause there for a moment.

3 Q. Is that you walking behind there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 [Videotape played]

7 "No, just to prove you -- prove you that you have been here

8 and ...

9 "Everything -- everything is possible, but it's not fair and it's

10 not correct to tell us that the police prevented him from going inside."

11 MR. EMMERSON: I think we can pause it there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check where the French translation --

13 what I wanted to know is whether you are at a point where we could

14 continue in English. I -- from what I understood, you were translating

15 the English text. Is that correct?

16 THE INTERPRETER: The English is not reading anything. The other

17 booths are from the text --

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... from the

19 transcript.

20 But, Mr. Di Fazio, I think, as a matter of fact, that from the

21 transcript if we would like to know more about the text spoken

22 originally, that we could try to find out that. It might not be the core

23 of the issue at stake here, so therefore for the time being I would like

24 to focus on what apparently the interpreter tells us in this video-clip,

25 because we do not have a full translation of the originally spoken

Page 4324

1 language. At least that's my impression but of course I can't -- .

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If I can assist.


4 MR. DI FAZIO: We're happy to proceed on the basis of this

5 translation for the time being.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So is the Defence, I take it.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I think -- this is a Prosecution translation. I

8 think a distinction is drawn if one reads closely between what is

9 translated from the original by the translation unit and what is simply a

10 transcript of the words spoken by the English interpreter present. So,

11 for example, on the page numbered 51, which is the second page of

12 transcript, the first passage seems to be a translation by the

13 translation unit of the words immediately before, whereas a few lines

14 further down interpreter into English one has a transcription of the

15 words spoken by the English-speaking interpreter on the film. I think

16 that is a -- it may not resolve all possible wrinkles, but I think that

17 is the way to read the document. It -- may I --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not entirely clear to me, but for the

19 time being, I think we can proceed on the basis of what we have. Please

20 proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


22 Q. We can see from certain passages in this transcript, Mr. Pappas,

23 that there is plainly a conversation taking place between the man you

24 have identified as Judge Cvejic --

25 A. I'm sorry, can I have the passage?

Page 4325

1 Q. I'm sorry. Have you not been provided with a copy of the

2 transcript?

3 A. Not only this, but what you say. I have to have it on the

4 screen.

5 Q. I'm sorry, there is a problem with the -- no, I think the witness

6 is not able to see the LiveNote on the screen. Is that the problem?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's see whether -- you would like to hear

9 what Mr. Emmerson said or you would like to hear what was said during the

10 video-clip?

11 THE WITNESS: What Mr. Emmerson said.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. Emmerson said. And in relation to what

13 exactly because we could then -- or he could repeat it to you and we

14 could read it --

15 MR. EMMERSON: I think the witness is concerned that his screen

16 was showing a video rather than displaying the LiveNote.


18 MR. EMMERSON: He would like to follow the questions and answers

19 in LiveNote. I think that's the problem.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, we can't show you at the

21 same time the video and the text spoken by Mr. Emmerson. If you would

22 please assist Mr. Emmerson in identifying exactly what you would like he

23 repeats so that you can at least listen carefully to what he says.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I would like him to repeat what he starting

25 saying after the video was played.

Page 4326


2 Q. Yes, thank you. Well, I'll ask the question again.



5 Q. It's apparent from the transcript that we have - and I don't know

6 whether you have it available to you or not - but it's apparent, from the

7 transcript that we have, that the conversation that's taking place

8 between Mr. Kaufmann and Judge Cvejic as you have identified him as being

9 is concerned with exclusion of your team by the police. So, for example,

10 if you look at page 52 -- I'm sorry, I do apologise, page 54 at the

11 bottom the speaker's words are interpreted as half a sentence: "To tell

12 us that the police prevented him from going inside ...?"

13 And page 56 the very bottom:

14 "I believe him in that this is correct. But how am I supposed to

15 believe him when he says 'the police didn't let me come and videotape.'"

16 Now, if you turn over the page to page 57:

17 "How can I believe you that the police told you couldn't come

18 here to visit this place."

19 Now, can I just be clear, Mr. Pappas. We've looked at

20 Mr. Kaufmann's description in his book of your team being excluded and

21 there being an argument. We've looked at the record in the Team Peje

22 report for the 18th of September, referring to a small dispute with the

23 prosecutor as to why the team wasn't allowed to see the evidence sooner.

24 You didn't arrive there, you say, at the canal and the hotel until the

25 18th, but it seems that you are present here on a videotape taken on the

Page 4327

1 16th, before you told us you'd met Judge Cvejic. Can you just explain to

2 us what you understand to have been going on?

3 A. For me, it's very simple. It might be a small mixing of

4 information or dates, that's it.

5 Q. Sorry, what does that mean?

6 A. That means maybe I met him one day before, and I don't remember

7 that after eight years. It's like that.

8 Q. But in your report written at the time, on the 5th of October,

9 1998, you record that it was the morning of the 17th where you first met

10 him at the court.

11 A. Can you please read what I wrote --

12 Q. Yes. I read it to you earlier.

13 "On the morning of the 17th September, I visited the court of Pec

14 to meet the local judiciary for the first time. I met the president of

15 the court Mr. Zivadin Cvejic, as well as the public prosecutor

16 Mr. Rade Gojkovic."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Well, is that --

19 A. I met the local judiciary for the first time.

20 Q. But unless the time --

21 A. I mean --

22 Q. -- and date counter on the videotape there is wrong, Mr. Pappas,

23 you'd met him the day before and not at the court at all but in the yard

24 of the KLA HQ in Gllogjan while there was a row going on about why the

25 police had caused exclusion from the area?

Page 4328

1 A. I told you that it might be only a mixing of dates and nothing

2 else.

3 Q. Well, it's not just a mixing of dates on any view, is it,

4 Mr. Pappas, it's a mixing of places?

5 A. No, it's not mixing of places.

6 Q. Well, it wasn't at the court you met him, was it? I mean, if

7 this video shows it's earlier in time --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could we first try to find out whether

9 the witness remembers.

10 Do you remember the event which was video-recorded?

11 THE WITNESS: I remember now that I see it, but I wasn't remember

12 it before and if you might ask me what date was that without seeing it, I

13 wouldn't be able to refer at exact date.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not asking you to refer to an exact date.

15 Was it before you saw the bodies in Hotel Pastrik?

16 THE WITNESS: I think it was, yes, but I --

17 JUDGE ORIE: That was, from what we understand, on the 18th of

18 September. Now, next question would be: Was it before you met with the

19 judiciary, as you said, in -- I think you said it was in Pec?

20 THE WITNESS: If it was on 16th that --


22 THE WITNESS: -- that particular film?


24 THE WITNESS: It was one day before.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's no answer to my question, because

Page 4329

1 if it was the 16th, then of course it was the day before the 17th.


3 JUDGE ORIE: That goes without saying. I'm asking you whether

4 you remember whether you went there with the judiciary before you

5 discussed matters in Pec?

6 THE WITNESS: No, I cannot recall that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You don't recall that.

8 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.


10 Q. Yesterday, you were shown and identified a photograph which was

11 appended to your witness statement of the building that we've just seen

12 with a pile of rubble outside it. Do you remember now when it was that

13 you took that photograph?

14 A. I stated that I think it was 18th of September, yes.

15 Q. Did you go there twice?

16 A. Yes, we might be there twice. I'm not sure.

17 Q. Well, try and remember, if you can.

18 A. I can't.

19 Q. You can't.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could we perhaps --

21 When you went to Hotel Pastrik, do you remember whether you went

22 there --

23 THE WITNESS: I recall that it was 18th of September.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question is: Do you remember whether you

25 went there directly or whether you went there first visiting other

Page 4330

1 villages, such as Gllogjan?

2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that, but I think we went directly

3 there. Afterwards, we've been to the area that allegedly was the mass

4 grave.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


7 Q. I'm still, if I may, just trying to explore with you the

8 circumstances in which you seem to have been present on the 16th of

9 September in Gllogjan whilst this argument was taking place. Do you

10 recall now whether you had been to Gllogjan before going to the court in

11 Pec?

12 A. After what I saw on video, yes.

13 Q. So was it wrong what you wrote to your government then, that the

14 first time you met Judge Cvejic was on the 17th? Were you wrong in that

15 because you'd actually met him the day before?

16 A. Wrong statement, yes, wrong -- wrong use of word, yes.

17 Q. And also wrong in your consolidated witness statement when you

18 repeated the same thing and signed for it and told the Court yesterday

19 that it represented the truth?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I object to that question, and Mr. Emmerson knows

21 what this witness is saying. He's not suggesting that -- this witness is

22 not saying that he was wrong in the sense that he lied in his statement.

23 He said that he saw the video and having seen that video, he's agreeing

24 with the propositions put by Mr. Emmerson concerning the 16th, and the

25 question should be framed in that way.

Page 4331

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

2 MR. EMMERSON: One of the propositions I'm putting is that what

3 is written in his Rule 92 ter statement, which was admitted yesterday, is

4 wrong.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we heard the testimony of the witness

6 today, we can read what is in his 92 ter statement. I think we have

7 sufficiently heard now how the witness explains the matter.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Can I ask --

9 JUDGE ORIE: And the question might not further assist in the

10 matter.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. Can I -- can I ask this briefly: Do you remember now -- you say

14 you see the video and it jogs your memory, do you remember now there

15 being an argument about exclusion by the police of your team?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you remember there being an argument at all?

18 A. Talking with Kaufmann was always an argument.

19 Q. I see. Can we look behind tab 19 in the bundle, please?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, Mr. Emmerson, I'd like to --

21 MR. EMMERSON: Keep an eye on the clock?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Remind you, yes, and --

23 MR. EMMERSON: I presume --

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- what you told us yesterday.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I have two very short documents to deal with, if I

Page 4332

1 may.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


4 Q. First of all, tab 19 is a record of a visit by Team Prizren to

5 the canal itself on the 8th of September; in other words, it appears from

6 tab 19 that ECMM Team Prizren visited the canal itself on the 8th of

7 September. Did you know that that had happened?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And have you ever seen this document before?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us where to look, exactly,

12 Mr. --

13 MR. EMMERSON: It's from the top, from the very beginning.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

15 MR. EMMERSON: The first -- the first two-thirds of that page --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 MR. EMMERSON: -- is all about the visit.

18 Q. If we look at, for example, the second paragraph:

19 "The team," that is Team Prizren, "observed a couple of houses

20 and some haystacks burning while driving through the village of Gllogjan.

21 The village appeared quite destroyed, 80 to 85 per cent. Serb police

22 forces were conspicuously present wearing the yellow ribbons that denote

23 stand-down alert."

24 And then there is a reference to a briefing that was given at the

25 scene by a Serb police representative.

Page 4333

1 Now, with that in mind, if we could just turn behind tab 20, and

2 I think this was mentioned briefly yesterday. May I just check if it's

3 been marked for identification. Yes, it's P280 already. If we could

4 just turn to the second page in that, and we look at page 4.3 --

5 paragraph 4.3.1. This is a report dated the 9th of September, so the day

6 after Team Prizren visited the canal site. 4.3.1 reads:

7 "KDOM Team Pristina and KDOM-US visited the alleged mass grave

8 site 1 kilometre north of Gllogjan, 18 kilometres south/south-east of

9 Pec. Representatives of the FRY Ministry of the Interior showed KDOM

10 nine unidentified bodies."

11 Now, were you aware of that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. If we look two paragraphs further up, 3.2.1:

14 "KDOM Team Pec was denied access by the Serb special forces to

15 the alleged mass grave site in Rausic, Donji Ratis, and Prilep. Team Pec

16 was not allowed to proceed towards Djakovica."

17 Were you aware at any time that there were suggested mass grave

18 sites at Prilep and Rausic, that the Serbs were suggesting that there had

19 been mass grave sites found at Prilep and Rausic?

20 A. We used to hear a lot of rumours, but I don't remember this exact

21 thing that you are showing.

22 Q. And as far as Donji Ratis is concerned, the reference to the

23 special forces keeping Team Pec away from Donji Ratis, and are you aware

24 of there being another grave site at Donji Ratis, apart from the canal?

25 A. No.

Page 4334

1 Q. And does this jog your memory about there being a process of your

2 team being excluded?

3 A. No, not at all.

4 Q. Because by the time you get there, the nine bodies that were seen

5 by Team Prizren have become how many?

6 A. 24 and plus some remains from other bodies.

7 Q. But none of them in situ when you got there?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Two final questions, if I may. Did the Serb officials who

10 briefed you at Hotel Pashtrik, did they ever tell you that they found two

11 complete, fully fleshed and very recently killed bodies floating in the

12 water of the canal?

13 A. No, I didn't know that.

14 Q. Did you have any means of comparing the photographs that were

15 shown to you with the records of the Serbian post mortems, because you

16 expressed the view that they were very convincingly explained? Did you

17 ever make a comparison between the photographs and post-mortem records?

18 A. That's an express [sic] that Mr. Kaufmann did.

19 Q. I see.

20 A. And I agreed to it.

21 Q. So did you see a photograph of two bodies floating in the water?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you become aware at all at any stage that there were bodies

24 that are shown in the photographs that had not been picked up or recorded

25 by the Serb officials; that there was a discrepancy, in other words,

Page 4335

1 between the photographic evidence and the records?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you know that?

4 A. No.

5 Q. No. And finally this: We've heard witness testimony in this

6 court that a very short time before the Serb records show the discovery

7 of this area, that there were a group of dead people, including a woman

8 and a child, inside the cow-sheds at the economic farm. You went to the

9 cow-sheds at the economic farm, didn't you?

10 A. Yes, we went.

11 Q. And of course there were no bodies at the time that you went

12 there; were there?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Were you ever told that the Serb authorities had found bodies

15 inside the cow-sheds?

16 A. No, I don't recall that. Only on a ditch outside.

17 Q. Yes. Yes, thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, are you ready to cross-examine

19 Mr. Pappas?

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. You'll now be cross-examined,

22 Mr. Pappas, by Mr. Guy-Smith.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

24 Q. Mr. Pappas, could you please tell us, when did you first arrive

25 in Kosovo for purposes of this particular mission?

Page 4336

1 A. I don't recall the exact date but it was between 15th and 17th of

2 July, 1998.

3 Q. At the time you arrived, I believe you told us that you were

4 briefed by your team leader, Mr. Kaufmann, concerning the situation as he

5 understood it to be; correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And how long a period of time had Mr. Kaufmann been in the

8 region, to your knowledge?

9 A. To my knowledge, it must be two up to four months. I don't

10 remember now.

11 Q. During the period of time that Mr. Kaufmann was briefing you

12 about the situation, did he share with you at that point in time any of

13 the previous reports that had been filed concerning the situation in

14 Kosovo?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When you arrived in Kosovo around the middle of July, you told us

17 that you began patrolling the roads; correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And when you began patrolling the roads, what was your point of

20 departure for patrolling those roads; by that I mean what city or village

21 did you leave from?

22 A. All the time, we were living in Pec.

23 Q. And during the period of time of your patrols, were you always

24 using, for the first month that is, the services of the Albanian

25 translator when you were dealing with Albanian issues, Mr. Kastriot?

Page 4337

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Kastriot was a -- thank you -- was a tall man, was he not?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. He had played basketball before working with you?

5 A. I didn't know that.

6 Q. I see. Would you say that Kastriot and Kaufmann were about the

7 same height?

8 A. Almost, yes. A little bit, I think, taller was Kaufmann.

9 Q. Kaufmann was a bit taller?

10 A. I think. I'm not sure.

11 Q. And Kastriot was -- he was a bit heavier, 20 to 30 kilos heavier;

12 was he not?

13 A. Yes, he was.

14 Q. Both of those gentlemen are considerably taller than you are,

15 aren't they?

16 A. Yes, they are.

17 Q. And could you tell us how tall you are?

18 A. 1.77.

19 Q. And when you say "1.77," that's centimetres; correct?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Okay. You, during the first week that you were in Kosovo,

22 learned of a substantial sea change in terms of the Serbian activity with

23 regard to attacking various areas; and by that I mean there was an

24 offensive on the 25th of July in the Lapusnik region. You knew about

25 that, didn't you?

Page 4338

1 A. I might not have started yet my patrols with the team.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. On 20th of July, but I don't recall that. I recall a lot of

4 clashes, some of them very close to us, to the city of Pec I mean. But I

5 don't recall each and every one of those and in any place, you know.

6 Q. Did you receive information around the 25th of July that there

7 was a substantial Serbian attack in the Lapusnik gorge area?

8 A. We might. I don't remember.

9 Q. Before you went out on patrol on a daily basis, did you educate

10 yourself - and by that, I mean you personally - did you educate yourself

11 about what the situation was on the ground so that you could make an

12 intelligent determination about where to go?

13 A. First of all, this was something that Kaufmann was about to

14 decide every day, and we were in a place that things were changing

15 rapidly, even within the period of one day. So you couldn't know what

16 you are going to face.

17 Q. I understand that. Did you have the ability to contact other

18 ECMM monitors to obtain information about what changes there may well be

19 during any period of time that you were going to be out on patrol?

20 A. We had the -- the ability to contact with them, but most of the

21 times we didn't, because we were working in different areas. A lot of

22 things that we were seeing, they didn't; a lot of things they -- they

23 knew or seeing, we could not be able to see.

24 Q. So --

25 A. So only in case of a kind of emergency we would call each other

Page 4339

1 to speak about something.

2 Q. And how would you characterise, for purposes of a discussion, an

3 emergency? What constituted an emergency?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Would it be fair to say that a major Serb offensive in an area

6 relatively close to where you were stationed would be something of moment

7 and importance with regard to what you were going to be doing, your team

8 was going to be doing?

9 A. I don't know. It's a hypothetical question.

10 Q. If I understand your evidence correctly, you never received any

11 such information from the time that you first arrived in Kosovo until

12 August 11th; correct?

13 A. I didn't say we never received. I said that I never got

14 knowledge of such information.

15 Q. Well, I'm asking you what you knew.

16 A. Yeah, yeah, I didn't.

17 Q. Okay. During the period of time that you were out on patrol

18 during the month of July, did you visit Serb police stations as part of

19 your observation and monitoring duties?

20 A. I'm not sure about the dates you are talking about in July or

21 not, but we visited police station in Pec and also in Decani and of

22 course Djakovica, I'm sorry.

23 Q. You told us yesterday when Mr. Emmerson asked you questions

24 concerning weapons, the quality and quantity of weapons that you

25 observed --

Page 4340

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: And this, for the courtesy of Court and counsel,

2 is page 4262.

3 Q. -- that most of the people that you saw were carrying old

4 weapons. And then you went on to say - and this is what I'm interested

5 in asking you about - "it seemed like the guns that from time to time we

6 were seeing gathered in police stations they were finding in villages and

7 stuff."

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Are these incidents, incidents where the Serb police were showing

10 you collections of weapons that they had seized from Albanian villages?

11 A. Yes, from time to time I -- I can just recall a big collection of

12 these kind of guns in Djakovica police station. They show us at the

13 time.

14 Q. Do you recall, as you sit here today, how many times you saw

15 that?

16 A. Maybe two, three times.

17 Q. Do you recall if you saw that initially in the month of July?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you recall when you saw it, if ever, in the month of August?

20 A. No, I'm not sure.

21 Q. With regard to the mandate that you had, if I understood your

22 testimony correctly, you could make a determination of what to evaluate

23 and what to report back to your headquarters; correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Now, when you were doing that, when you were trying to make a

Page 4341

1 determination of what factual information was of importance, did you have

2 some guidelines that you used?

3 A. You mean if we had the specific task from time to time?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. That's something that used to happen in Bosnia when I were, but

6 in Kosovo, no, we had an open ...

7 Q. An open what?

8 A. We didn't have something specific to -- to report.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting but I'm

10 trying to follow the evidence, and it seems to me that counsel and the

11 witness were at cross-purposes. Mr. Guy-Smith asked if this witness had

12 guide-lines to determine what information's important, what's not. Then

13 the witness asked if he had a specific task, specific job. It's a

14 different thing. Guide-lines are one thing and being given a specific

15 job is another. I just wonder --

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's not a problem.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, the witness sought

18 verification of whether he understood the question well. By rephrasing

19 it and perhaps not saying exactly the same, but Mr. Guy-Smith said that

20 that's how the question should be understood. So, therefore, I think we

21 could continue on that basis.

22 Please proceed.


24 Q. When you -- when you said you -- you had an open, that you didn't

25 have something specific to report, how did you and your colleagues make a

Page 4342

1 determination of what information you were going to report to the

2 headquarters?

3 A. As far as I understood when I arrived there, from Kaufmann, he

4 briefed me about the area. So he told me something also about reporting.

5 He said to me that we supposed to report everything we see, and then it's

6 up to the others to decide what they are going to investigate and to ask

7 for more details or whatever. That's what we are doing.

8 Q. And I take it that's -- that's what you did during the period of

9 time that you were working with Kaufmann; correct?

10 A. Yeah, that's correct.

11 Q. Did you keep a daily log or report of what you saw and

12 experienced?

13 A. You mean, personally? Me, myself?

14 Q. I mean you, yourself, sir.

15 A. No.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, may I seek some clarification. You

17 said you would report whatever you observed and then you would wait

18 whether there would be any further questions. Now, if I try to imagine

19 what it takes to report everything I see every day, that I need three

20 days off to report that. For example --

21 THE WITNESS: Besides --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- price of bread. If you see any change, would you

23 report that? Or was it focusing on military matters?

24 THE WITNESS: For example, Your Honour, we would report an unrest

25 due to population because they have a fear of something that will happen.

Page 4343

1 But we -- we wouldn't expect this to happen and then to report something.

2 Something like that, yes, we would but not the bread pricing.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So everything that you observed to -- that

4 might be relevant for --

5 THE WITNESS: To be all --

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- tensions --

7 THE WITNESS: Yes. To be out of normal, let's say.


9 THE WITNESS: From our point of view.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But mainly then focusing on -- on not only

11 military matters but on security matters --


13 JUDGE ORIE: -- unrest in society rather than economic matters

14 or --

15 THE WITNESS: Humanitarian maybe, yes.


17 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

19 Q. Was one of the matters that you were to report on the movement of

20 the civilian population as a result of the unrest or military engagement

21 that you observed?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Apart from the incident that you've testified to here today that

24 you saw on the 11th of August, did you report any other incidents

25 regarding the movement of the population as a result of unrest because of

Page 4344

1 military engagements?

2 A. Yeah. We reported sometimes even rumours that we used to hear or

3 whatever you -- we were able to see. For example, I remember a case in

4 Krusevac, I don't recall the exact day, that a lot of internal displaced

5 persons were gathered because of conflicts.

6 Q. I'm going to move to the 11th of August now. The first thing

7 that I'd like to discuss with you, depending on how the time that the

8 Court intends on taking the break, is a photograph.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The break will be within the next -- somewhere

10 within the next five minutes. If you are able to finish with the

11 photograph within that time, please proceed.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could see Exhibit 272.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: The exhibit -- that's the photograph of his -- of

15 the car that Mr. Pappas testified that he was driving, that he said was

16 taken sometime in August.

17 Q. Looking at that photograph, I note that there is on the side of

18 what seems to be some insignia, a blue square?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that insignia an insignia that was on other parts of the

21 vehicle on August 11th?

22 A. Yes. There was another flag on the other side of the car at the

23 same position at the door of co-driver. There was one more, I don't know

24 the English word for this, on the --

25 Q. Hood?

Page 4345

1 A. On the hood, yes.

2 Q. On the hood?

3 A. And one at the back door of the car. One could see it if you

4 were standing behind the car.

5 Q. Now, you testified that at one point an individual was attempting

6 to take these decals off of the car?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you tell us which of the decals the individual was

9 attempting to take off of the car? And I understand we only have one

10 that can be seen on the driver's-side door, but was it on the hood? Was

11 it on the passenger side?

12 A. It was the one on the driver's side, and a small Greek flag that

13 I told you before at the back and even the one you can see in orange-like

14 colour letters on the top frame of the car.

15 Q. Just for purposes of the record, since there may be some concern

16 about hood. The hood is the part of the car that covers the engine in a

17 front-wheel drive vehicle?

18 A. Yes, I know.

19 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure that every -- that we're all on

20 the same page.

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. Did you have the decal on the driver's-side door replaced at some

23 point in time before you had this picture taken?

24 A. What do you mean "decal"?

25 Q. The insignia that's on the driver's-side door.

Page 4346

1 A. Yes, as far as I remember we have it -- we had it, yes.

2 Q. And when you say "we had it," is that in the same condition that

3 it was in on the 11th of August?

4 A. I don't know what you mean.

5 Q. Is the insignia on the driver's-side door, as we see it in this

6 photograph, in the same condition that it was after the time when you

7 said an individual was attempting to take the insignia off the car?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm done with that particular exhibit at this

11 time, and I've been more than five minutes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me -- yes. Your question, but please

13 correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Guy-Smith. You started your question with

14 an attempt to take the decal from the car and then later you asked

15 whether it was replaced. I'm not quite certain anymore whether there's

16 any evidence that it actually was taken from the car.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not either, which is why I asked whether or

18 not it was in the same condition in the photograph that it is in --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. So that's -- so that was a possibility

20 that there was even no need to replace?

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Possibility there was no need to replace it,

22 which is something I can deal with after the break.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know how important and how relevant

24 that will be, but we'll hear from you.

25 Mr. Pappas, we'll have a break until quarter past 4.00 and -- but

Page 4347

1 I'm first inviting Mr. Usher to escort you out of the courtroom so that I

2 can try to find more information about the time still needed, a matter

3 certainly not of your concern.

4 [The witness stands down]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, Mr. Harvey, Mr. Di Fazio, is there

6 any reason to fear that we would not finish today, as we said yesterday

7 we would expect?

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: None whatsoever.

9 MR. HARVEY: Not at all.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: No. No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a break until quarter past 4.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to first discuss two scheduling matters.

15 Mr. Emmerson has requested not to sit on the -- from the 5th until the

16 13th of July. We have not heard any specific position taken by the

17 Prosecution, Mr. Di Fazio. At the same time, it was an urgent matter.

18 Mr. Emmerson indicated why it was that he asked for not sitting and also

19 why it was urgent.

20 Mr. Emmerson, the Chamber, in the absence of any opposition, any

21 objection by the Prosecution, until now is considering not to sit on

22 Monday, the 9th; Tuesday, the 10th; Wednesday, the 11th; Thursday, the

23 12th. And then to see whether on the 5th of July, we could, perhaps,

24 focus on procedural matters or at least not on, could I say, core

25 evidence matters. We already decided that we would not sit usually on

Page 4348

1 Fridays, that would take the 6th off as well.

2 Would that do, as far as you're concerned?

3 MR. EMMERSON: It's more than generous, and I'm extremely

4 grateful for the flexibility.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it's generous for you,

6 Mr. Emmerson, because The Chamber has considered urgent matters it would

7 have to do itself as well. So therefore it's --

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second, please.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: There's no interpretation, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: There's no interpretation. Then everyone is on the

12 right channel? Yes, I do understand there's interpretation now.

13 Just to avoid whatever misunderstanding, urgent matters you may

14 have elsewhere usually will not seduce the Chamber to give up sitting

15 days. It was mainly because the Chamber needs some time to consider a

16 lot of matters relevant to this case and rather do that not the last few

17 days before the recess but do that one week prior to that, so if need be

18 that we could address these issues on the week -- in the week after that.

19 So it's not a matter of generosity, but I would say concurring interest.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you anyway.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, this is just to discourage any further

22 requests of this kind, unless you have first inquired into what the

23 Chamber needs.

24 Then, Mr. Guy-Smith, it seems that you asked about the 5th and

25 the 6th of June where the Limaj case will be heard on appeal. Is that --

Page 4349

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour. But before I ask

2 for any decision, the matter right now is in quite a state of flux

3 because of the potential health concerns of my client, which I'll be

4 attending to immediately after trial today. So --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I'll come back -- I'll come back with a

7 specific request --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, I can tell you already that as

9 part of other conversations with other Trial Chambers, that the Chamber

10 is -- has already met a request of the Appeals Chamber to give up either

11 the 5th or the 6th, and has decided that we would give up the 6th of

12 June. You have not been informed about that yet. That is because I

13 think it was the 15th of June, which is a - let me just have a look - is

14 a Friday. The nonsitting day in the week 11 until the 15th of June, we

15 might want to swap that - I don't know whether I indicated that earlier

16 already - from the 15th to the 11th, that is, not sitting on the Monday.

17 At the same time, there is a request outstanding whether we could swap

18 the 15th from afternoon to morning, and we have not received an answer to

19 that yet. This is just to inform you about some pending matters in

20 relation to court scheduling.

21 Mr. Harvey, I saw that you were on your feet as well.

22 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted the Court to be

23 aware that I am Mr. Guy-Smith's co-counsel in the Limaj appeal, and so

24 obviously the matter affects this trial in both ways.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course -- let's wait and hope for the best

Page 4350

1 as far as the health concerns is -- and then, of course, what to do on

2 the 5th and the 6th, whether you could split up or divide functions,

3 that's, of course -- you still have to see to what extent we could save

4 the 5th; if there's no possibility, then, of course --

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've also had a brief conversation with Mr. Re

6 about this with regard to what witnesses he may be calling, and there may

7 be a way of --


9 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- of covering it -- covering it that way, too.

10 So I'm trying to cover the base in any way I can.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly the type of action the Chamber would

12 expect you to take under those circumstances.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of the possible solutions would also be

15 that we would -- where on the 5th of June, the Appeals Chamber will hear

16 the Limaj case in the afternoon, whether we could -- oh, it's already --

17 already in the morning. Then Judge Hoepfel is better aware of the matter

18 than I am.

19 Then I think we could ask the usher to -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Just before we do that, I -- I think that we have

21 a status on the issue of the translation of the four-page Greek document.

22 I've been informed by --


24 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- Mr. Di Fazio that the document has been

25 forwarded to the translation department, and that it is expected to be

Page 4351

1 translated no earlier than Friday and maybe Monday.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So -- you mean of Mr. Pappas, the document --

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Then I'm afraid we have to wait and see

5 what happens, if there would be any need to -- for a recall of Mr. Pappas

6 at a later stage, we have to see that. But in view of what happened

7 yesterday and in view of the time Mr. Pappas spent already in The Hague,

8 I think it would be fair not to wait for that.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm in total agreement with that. I should

10 inform the Chamber that I do intend to ask him about the one area that he

11 did say that he relied upon in refreshing his memory concerning that

12 document, which was the height of the individual.


14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Which, I believe, he indicated was a --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course you could ask him. I take it that he

16 still has a copy of that, and he knows what is in it. So questions can

17 be asked about it.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.

19 MR. EMMERSON: I understand that there's a certain amount of

20 tidying up still to be done in terms of cross-referencing the tabs in the

21 bundle to exhibit numbers on the record. The message that's come through

22 to me from -- from the Bench is that Your Honour would like to postpone

23 the tidying-up exercise until the very end.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, for -- yes, until the very end, and perhaps

25 even until Madam Registrar replaces again Mr. Registrar. What we would

Page 4352

1 like to have is at the end -- you see, Mr. Di Fazio, that Madam Registrar

2 has given you a list of documents in the range you intend to tender which

3 have received already numbers. I very much would like to have the index

4 of the bundle, but then completed with all the information we have --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- as what MFI numbers, what is already admitted

7 earlier, so that we have a full set of documents and then go --

8 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly. The only ones that are not immediately

9 available to be clarified are those which were to be collectively

10 exhibited by Mr. Di Fazio, and I think those numbers are available.

11 Whilst we are on the subject, can I just mention one document

12 which is behind tab 28 which I haven't taken time asking the witness

13 about because it doesn't seem to me likely that he'll have personal

14 knowledge of it, but Your Honours may remember there being significance

15 in the date upon which two individuals who are named in that document,

16 that's the very last page in the bundle of the English translation.

17 There is a significant -- I don't ask you to read the names because a

18 protected witness is related to them, but Your Honours may recall that

19 became of some significance as to the date of disappearance because it

20 fixed the evidence of Witness 21 as to when it was he visited the canal

21 site in relation to that. And this is an ECMM document recording

22 information provided by the family as --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you seeking to have it tendered from the

24 bar table?

25 MR. EMMERSON: It will be tendered from the bar table.

Page 4353

1 JUDGE ORIE: And then we'll hear at that moment whether there's

2 any objection. If you would include that in your --

3 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- in your index.

5 MR. EMMERSON: So might I ask Mr. Registrar to mark that

6 individual document for identification, now, so it can have an

7 identification number.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been uploaded in the system?

9 MR. EMMERSON: It is uploaded in the system. It's part of a much

10 larger document.


12 MR. EMMERSON: It's part of 65 ter 660.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And what --

14 MR. EMMERSON: It's the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: You have given it a number -- let me just have a

16 look 28 is -- yes, there's no document ID for the Defence. It's part of

17 660 but wouldn't it be wise to have it uploaded, but the relevant

18 portion, and not more than that?

19 MR. EMMERSON: As it happens the whole of 660 is uploaded and I

20 have selected one page from others that are irrelevant and I'm simply

21 asking that that one page be marked for identification. Is that not a

22 convenient way to do it?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we know which page that would be?

24 MR. EMMERSON: Within this document it is I think paginated.

25 JUDGE ORIE: It is -- well, of course we have the R numbers on

Page 4354

1 it.


3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you would like to have the cover

4 page?


6 JUDGE ORIE: Which is R025-9116, and the relevant page would be

7 then R025-9118. These two pages together to be --

8 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- attributed an exhibit number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these will be marked for

11 identification as D67.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. The only matter - but I

13 leave that to you, Mr. Emmerson - the cover page is only in English. The

14 other page is translated.


16 JUDGE ORIE: We would then have one piece of evidence --


18 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is not in the language of the accused.

19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm happy to take responsibility for that and have

20 it translated for the benefit of the accused. The reason it's important

21 is because there's a date error --


23 MR. EMMERSON: -- on the subsequent document which plainly refers

24 to events that took place --

25 JUDGE ORIE: How to explain that.

Page 4355


2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll come to that at a later stage.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That's at least marked now for identification and

5 you include this number on your index when completed.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we could ask the usher to escort the witness

8 into the courtroom again.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, please proceed.


13 Q. Yes. And a final couple of questions with regard to the decal.

14 Was that decal removed from your car on the 11th?

15 A. That's what I think. I'm not sure about this, you know, the

16 tense of the moment and it's a lot of years ago, and I don't know.

17 Q. It's a detail you don't recall?

18 A. No. I think it was removed, I think.

19 Q. The person who you believe did that, is the same individual who

20 you have told us hit and kicked your interpreter Mr. Kastriot?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You have described him as an individual: slim, dark hair,

23 dark complexion, and the height of 1 metre, 70 centimetres; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were able to determine his height because, as a matter of

Page 4356

1 fact, you were standing close to him at one point during this incident?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That is information that you recorded in your report to the

4 Greek Embassy; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, during the time that this man was beating Kastriot, Kastriot

7 was fending off those blows and was actually talking to that man, wasn't

8 he?

9 A. He was trying to, yes.

10 Q. And there came a point in time before anybody entered the room

11 where that particular individual stopped hitting Kastriot; right?

12 A. He stopped hitting him before we were ordered to climb the stairs

13 and go to the other floor.

14 Q. Kastriot was considerably taller than this particular person, was

15 he not, the man who was hitting him?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you say it would be fair to say that he was a couple of

18 heads taller; and by that, I mean a good 10 to 15 centimetres taller?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the man who was -- was hitting Kastriot was, in fact, shorter

21 than you are?

22 A. Yes, I believe so.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you had an opportunity to go on the ICTY web site and

24 take a look at a number of pictures; correct?

25 A. Not a number, just those that I printed.

Page 4357

1 Q. I see. Just the three pictures that you told us you've printed:

2 one of Mr. Haradinaj, one of Mr. Balaj, and one of Mr. Brahimaj?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And those pictures were pictures that you saw after you had

5 received information, I believe it was from your government, that you had

6 been requested to testify against these men; correct?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. Did at any point in time any member of the Prosecution or an

9 investigator come to you before you received that invitation to come

10 testify and ask you to view a photo line-up?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Apart from the description that you have given us of the

13 one man who was beating the interpreter, did you give any other

14 descriptions of individuals that you saw that day on the 11th of August?

15 A. No, only his description and Haradinaj's.

16 Q. Okay. After Mr. Haradinaj spoke with you, you were driven away,

17 you were escorted, as I understand it, by, as you told us, among others,

18 the man you've identified as Idriz Balaj; right?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. During the period of time that you were on the road, do you

21 recall what villages you went through?

22 A. No, I just recall that we've been moving north from the way

23 almost that we came.

24 Q. And when you were -- when you parted company, they left you in

25 the village of Ljumbarda, did they not?

Page 4358

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You don't have any doubt about that, do you, that when these

3 three men left you after this incident, you were left in the village of

4 Ljumbarda, where you then had further discussions with other KLA members?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. I'm grateful.

7 JUDGE ORIE: One question, Mr. Guy-Smith. In one -- line -- page

8 55, line 2, you said: "You were driven away," which I understand to be

9 passive, that someone drives you somewhere. Is that what you meant?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I meant passive from the standpoint that he was

11 in a car that was being driven.


13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I did not understand him to be the driver of the

14 car.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's then understood.

16 Is that how you understood the question as well?


18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, that's -- for that clarification.

19 Mr. Harvey.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm fine.

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pappas. During your time in Kosovo, did you

23 keep a diary of your day-to-day activities?

24 A. No, never.

25 Q. You didn't maintain a journal of any sort?

Page 4359

1 A. Not in Kosovo, not in Bosnia. That was before.

2 Q. Okay. How frequently during your time in Kosovo did you send

3 incident reports to the Greek government?

4 A. I sent these two reports that you saw --

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. -- until now, and another one that was about the cars we're

7 using, logistics, problems, that they supposed to -- to take care about

8 with other countries.

9 Q. So just three reports during your entire time in Kosovo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. You took the trouble to go on to the ICTY web site in

12 April of 2006 to look at and download the photographs of the three

13 accused in this case. Did you -- and you took the trouble to bring those

14 with you to the Tribunal when you came to meet with the Prosecutors

15 earlier this month. That's correct, isn't it?

16 A. That's correct, yes.

17 Q. Did you bring with you any other documents, apart from those

18 photographs, when you came to meet with the Prosecutor earlier this

19 month?

20 A. The report that I delivered two days ago, one and a half, let's

21 say, and the other one that I have delivered to Prosecutors when I

22 arrived also.

23 Q. So those are the only documents that you had with you as you were

24 preparing your composite statement for presentation to the Tribunal this

25 month?

Page 4360

1 A. Yeah, and some photos also.

2 Q. Yes, of course. And at the time when you gave your statement in

3 May of 2006, did you have any other notes or reports to which you

4 referred at that stage?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In your, what we call, 92 ter statement, that's the one that you

7 made this month, you refer to both Mr. Haradinaj and to Mr. Balaj. You

8 do not mention Mr. Brahimaj in that statement. Is there a reason for

9 that?

10 A. The reason is that he was not part of the incident, as I say. An

11 active part, I mean.

12 Q. Well, I want to pursue this with you a little further, and just

13 so you understand where I'm coming from, Mr. Pappas, it is my suggestion

14 and my case that you have made a mistake and a very common mistake in

15 that you have identified him inaccurately, wrongly, as having been

16 present at the scene. You understand where I'm coming from on this?

17 A. Yeah -- yes, I understand.

18 Q. Now, you told Mr. Guy-Smith just now that you only gave two

19 descriptions of men whom you saw at the scene, that's the description of

20 Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Balaj; correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. In May of 2006 --

23 MR. HARVEY: And, Your Honours, I'm at paragraph 21 of the

24 statement on page 7.

25 Q. -- you said that Lahi Brahimaj was with the group in the compound

Page 4361

1 where you were detained but - and these were your words - "he didn't do

2 anything." You agree with that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said a little earlier in that statement, at paragraph 19,

5 that: "There were at least 15 armed people, all of them in uniform."

6 Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When you say "at least 15," do you think it's more than 15?

9 A. More or less.

10 Q. Well, "at least" implies not less, doesn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So do you think it's more?

13 A. Might be, yes.

14 Q. And approximately how long were you in the courtyard before you

15 were taken upstairs to a room?

16 A. Some minutes, maybe five minutes tops.

17 Q. So there was just a crowd of people, none of whom did anything to

18 make them stand out as an individual in the crowd; correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And common sense, to which you've referred a number of times in

21 the course of your testimony, common sense would tell you that when

22 people are all in uniform, they are harder to tell apart than people who

23 are dressed differently. Would you agree with that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And would you agree also that in a situation such as the one that

Page 4362

1 you have described, common sense tells you that you focus on the people

2 who are talking or acting much more than you do on those who are just

3 standing around?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And you accept, of course, that it was almost eight years after

6 the event that you first saw a photograph of my client, Mr. Brahimaj?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that was just a photograph of his face and his head and

9 shoulders with him wearing a suit and a shirt and tie?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Oh, the people in uniforms, what did they have on their heads?

12 A. Most of the times they had this hat, I don't know the word in

13 English.

14 Q. Well, like a beret?

15 A. Like a beret, yes.

16 Q. Did these individuals have berets?

17 A. Not at the time.

18 Q. Or did they have caps?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did any of them have anything on their heads?

21 A. The ones that I described or in general in the yard?

22 Q. The ones in the yard in general.

23 A. Some of them, they had.

24 Q. After all this time, it is really impossible for you, isn't it,

25 to be certain of the identities of anybody else in that yard?

Page 4363

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. HARVEY: No further questions. Thank you.

3 MR. EMMERSON: I'd like to make it clear, if I may, for the

4 purpose of the record that I associate myself formally with the

5 suggestion that Lahi Brahimaj was not present in Gllogjan on the 11th of

6 August.


8 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if I -- if I might, I do the same and I had

9 indicated earlier that my case was -- and perhaps there's one further

10 question I should put to Mr. Pappas with the Chamber's permission, which

11 would be the following: That he is mistaken that my client, Idriz Balaj,

12 was the man who was beating the interpreter, Mr. Kastriot; however, he

13 did see him on that day during that time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These are a couple of questions mixed up.

15 Could you please separate them?

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Before you put them. Let me first -- I want to be

18 quite sure about the answer of what also was -- well, could be

19 misunderstood.

20 When you said "yes," Mr. Pappas, you confirmed that it was really

21 impossible to be certain of the identities of anybody else in that yard,

22 "anybody else" in this context meaning anybody else than specifically

23 described by you. Is that correctly understood?

24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, just a minute, to read exactly what he

25 was asking.

Page 4364

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I could repeat the question, but Mr. Harvey

2 was seeking confirmation that you considered it impossible after all

3 those years to recognise him. Is that what your testimony is?

4 THE WITNESS: I consider impossible to -- to give description of

5 anybody that was in the yard, of course, but for the people that were

6 acting or -- that's why I can say that Mr. Brahimaj would be there

7 because maybe he was very close, so I remember the face. It was not

8 something that -- or some person that I would meet a lot of times. So I

9 could mix places.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, there might be some misunderstanding,

11 Mr. Harvey. Could you please further explore the matter? I just wanted

12 to be sure that this "yes" was well understood by the Chamber, which

13 supposes that the question was well understood by the witness. And I'm

14 not fully convinced that there is no confusion at all.

15 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful, Your Honour. I think there may have

16 been some confusion.

17 Q. Mr. Pappas, you've had the experience, haven't you, if in your

18 ordinary daily life, that you've walked down the street and you've seen

19 somebody on the other side of the road and you have thought for certain

20 that you recognised them and then a moment later you realised that you're

21 completely mistaken; correct?

22 A. That's correct, yes.

23 Q. And I'm talking there in terms of recognising somebody familiar

24 to you, somebody who you know. You can mistakes, can't you, like that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4365

1 Q. Now, it's very clear that you have never seen Mr. Brahimaj on any

2 occasion, other possibly than on the occasion you're talking about on the

3 11th of August. You never saw him before that date, did you?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. You've never seen him since that date?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Until you came into court today?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And so it comes to this, that for something -- for a few minutes,

10 during which a group of people are standing there, all in uniform, none

11 of them doing anything to make them stand out, you have singled out from

12 a photograph you saw eight years later the third person who is accused in

13 this case and you have said, Ah, yes, that was one of the crowd. That's

14 what it comes to, isn't it?

15 A. I would say that his face came to me, yes, and it was connected

16 with this incident in the yard.

17 Q. Do you consider yourself to be a fair and objective man, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Being fair, being objective, do you think that there is a

20 possibility that you just might be mistaken?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you've heard counsel for the two other defendants both say

23 that their client's position is yes they were there but that my client

24 was not. Do you think that you may really be mistaken after of all these

25 years?

Page 4366

1 A. Maybe after all these years, yes. There is a slight possibility.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. HARVEY: I think it's as far as I can take it, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Here again the answer the slight possibility. I

5 mean, everyone would say even of what happened five minutes ago a slight

6 possibility then we have to explore is that a theoretical possibility.

7 Mr. Pappas, just a simple question to you after all the questions

8 Mr. Harvey has put to you: Are you positive, are you certain, that the

9 person you saw on the internet that person -- that picture on the

10 internet being a photograph of Mr. Brahimaj in this courtroom, are you

11 certain beyond, I would say, doubt that is automatically and always in

12 one's mind, but are you certain that he was in the courtyard, yes or

13 no --


15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's a clear answer. That's --

16 Mr. Harvey. Yes.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To make this round of clarifications complete.

18 May I ask you, please, Witness, if this was one sentence or it was two

19 sentences. You said a while ago, it is on transcript 61, line 18 and 19:

20 "It was not something that -- or some person that I would meet a lot of

21 times, so I could mix places." It has been written down now as two

22 sentences --

23 THE WITNESS: It's one sentence.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Some person that I would meet a lot of times, so

25 I could mix places, this is one sentence, a coma before the word "so" --

Page 4367


2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, is there any need for re-examination?

4 Perhaps before giving an opportunity, the Chamber is always at

5 least -- at least I'm always a bit hesitant to put questions first or

6 last. I would have one very specific question which, I don't know

7 whether it would have any bearing on the questions you have in mind.

8 Could we have P279 on the screen? Could it be enlarged? Let me

9 just -- Mr. Emmerson, there was somewhere in the tabs. Do you remember

10 which tab it was so that I can look at the hard copy?

11 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was the -- yes, it may have been 25, yes.

13 MR. EMMERSON: In fact --

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's not -- it's not 25.

15 MR. EMMERSON: No, it's not there, in fact.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I thought it wasn't.

17 MR. EMMERSON: No, I --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just -- in this -- oh, first of all, we should

19 go into -- should we go into private session for this matter or was this

20 the report that was -- I'm not quite sure.

21 Mr. -- I know that there were -- not all of the reports were

22 under seal, but ...

23 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated].

24 JUDGE ORIE: But this one is?

25 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated].

Page 4368

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll go for a second into private

2 session.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4369











11 Pages 4369-4370 redacted. Private session















Page 4371

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry for the interruption, Your Honours, but

5 we're in open session.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please, perhaps before I ask

8 any questions in re-examination, Mr. Guy-Smith raised earlier - and I'm

9 looking at page 60 - there's -- he said there's one further question I

10 should put to Mr. Pappas with the Chamber's permission, which would be

11 the following: That he's mistaken that my client, Idriz Balaj, was the

12 man who was beating the interpreter Mr. Kastriot; however, he did see him

13 on that day during that time. Now --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: -- in the Prosecution --

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Di Fazio, to cut matters short, I

17 interrupted Mr. Guy-Smith at that time because I wanted to be sure about

18 the answer the witness gave to the last question of Mr. Harvey. After

19 having clarified the issue raised by Mr. Harvey, I did not, which I

20 should have done, have given an opportunity to Mr. Guy-Smith to finish

21 what he was doing when I interrupted him.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please -- I understand that.

23 And if Your Honours please, I don't know what Mr. Guy-Smith's intentions

24 are, but I submit that he should ask that question, give the opportunity

25 to the Defence --

Page 4372

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if I'm giving the opportunity, if he

2 doesn't do it, then it's time to consider what he should do, but if he

3 does it.

4 Mr. Guy-Smith.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm more than happy to take the opportunity.

6 Further cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 Q. Mr. Pappas, I suggest to you that you are mistaken when you say

8 that the individual who was beating your interpreter, Mr. Kastriot, was

9 Idriz Balaj, the man that you identified after looking at the photographs

10 on the web of the ICTY, that you're wrong about that, you've made a

11 mistake.

12 A. Do you want an answer to that?

13 Q. I do.

14 A. No, I'm sure he was the one.

15 Q. I further suggest to you that you did see him on that day. You

16 saw him at least on two occasions, one during the time that you were with

17 all these people, the people who were in the yard, and during the time

18 that Mr. Kastriot was being beaten, and also when he escorted you to

19 safety.

20 A. No.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even there, there's some ambiguity.

23 Mr. Guy-Smith, in the second question, asked you that you did see him on

24 that day in the yard and escorting you away. Since your testimony is

25 that he was in the yard beating the interpreter, it's difficult to

Page 4373

1 understand how you could say no to having seen him in the yard. So

2 therefore, it's not fully clear to me what your answer is. Could you --

3 THE WITNESS: The answer, Your Honour, is that I stand for my

4 statements just now, that he was the one, he beated the interpreter.


6 THE WITNESS: He's the one who drive us in the village for --

7 from first place and drive us out of the village afterwards.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the answer is that you are pertinent in

9 saying that you saw him beating your interpreter, that he was then in the

10 yard, and that he escorted you in and out of Gllogjan.


12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then having clarified this, Mr. Di Fazio.

13 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a couple of questions.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

15 Q. You were asked if a photo line-up was ever provided to you

16 before -- during this afternoon by Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith. Before you

17 actually accessed the ICTY web site, had you had a chance to speak to

18 any -- any investigator from this institution?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Thank you. You were asked a number of questions yesterday

21 concerning Serb artillery and location of Serb positions and the

22 activities of Serb forces in and around the lake. In all the time that

23 you were there in Kosovo, in this area, did you ever have an opportunity

24 to see or lay eyes on Serb artillery positions?

25 A. No, at any time.

Page 4374

1 Q. Okay. As a -- all right. You didn't see anything. Did you have

2 any information as to the sort of artillery being used by Serb -- by the

3 Serb forces, what calibre, what potency and what range?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Was there anything from the shell explosions that you heard and

6 saw on the 11th of August that led you to conclude what sort of calibre

7 or power this artillery had?

8 A. We found in another place where was the -- the photograph of our

9 car, if you remember, it was a burnt house next to it, we found there

10 some big shells of artillery with Cyrillic, how you say, this alphabet of

11 Serbian language on it. And it -- I've been told that it was a shell of

12 120-millimetres.

13 Q. That's --

14 A. That's the only time I ever see from these kind of shells.

15 Q. Speaking as a military man, that's a pretty large calibre, isn't

16 it?

17 A. It is, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you know the range of 120-millimetre shells?

19 A. No, no.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is that any different, apart from whether that's --

21 I'm not an expert, but whether it's 120-millimetre mortar, which I

22 understand is considered to be artillery, or whether it would be any

23 other weapon that would fire that?

24 THE WITNESS: No, only artillery. You would see by the shell of

25 it.

Page 4375

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The word "shell" meaning exactly what, that

2 what lands or that what remains if what fired?

3 THE WITNESS: What remains.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that that's called a cartridge, is

5 that --

6 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

7 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated].

8 JUDGE ORIE: Shell-case. Yes, you see, I learned a lot.

9 So you saw shell cases --


11 JUDGE ORIE: -- belonging to 120-millimetre ammunition?


13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just give me a moment, please.

15 Q. Mr. Pappas, thank you for answering my questions and the

16 questions of other counsel.

17 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --

19 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:


21 Q. The shell-casings that you've been answering questions about,

22 where was it that you saw them?

23 A. It was for sure in another area, but I cannot recall the place.

24 Q. Can you give us some idea, please, where it was? You showed --

25 told us about a photograph that was taken at the same place. Where were

Page 4376

1 the shell-casings, roughly?

2 A. I was, I believe, on the other side when we visited this empty

3 villages --

4 Q. On the other --

5 A. -- we found on the -- on the way, on the main road from Pec to

6 Pristina and a little bit south of those main road.

7 Q. I see. And presumably if they're empty cases with Cyrillic, it

8 was that which caused you to conclude that they were Serb shells?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And when a shell is fired from a heavy weapon, the casing is

11 discharged from the weapon at the position where the weapon is fired

12 from. Is that correct?

13 A. I'm not sure if it's automatic -- automatically rejected from the

14 weapon, but -- yes.

15 Q. It's either rejected automatically or removed by the operator of

16 the weapon and left in the position from which the weapon had been fired?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So the casings you saw were evidence in your mind that the Serb

19 forces had fired from that position?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I don't have any supplementary questions

23 arising from that cross-examination, if Your Honours please, and I can

24 say that my re-examination is now over. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's how I understood it, and I understood

Page 4377

1 it also that Mr. Emmerson did put this question because it was triggered

2 very specifically by the question you put to the witness in

3 re-examination. That's how I understand the procedural situation.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no further questions, and since the --

6 as Mr. Di Fazio noticed, the Defence is usually alert enough to not wait

7 for an invitation. I take it that Mr. Guy-Smith and Mr. Harvey have no

8 further questions either?

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: No further questions.


11 Mr. Pappas, this then concludes your testimony in this court.

12 I'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague, especially

13 since the Chamber, of course, is aware of the inconvenience it caused you

14 to stay for a third day of giving evidence. We wish you a safe and a

15 quick trip home again.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Pappas out of

18 the courtroom.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest to the parties that we'll finally deal

21 with the exhibits once we have finalised the indexes, schedules, and

22 whatever it is, filled in with every detail, and then deal with it. That

23 would perhaps be after Madam Registrar has returned.

24 Then, Mr. Di Fazio, is the Prosecution ready to call its next

25 witness?

Page 4378

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think I might leave that

2 question to Mr. Kearney.


4 MR. DI FAZIO: My prediction is that he's going to say yes, they

5 are ready, but I'll leave that to Mr. Kearney as to whether we are ready

6 to call our next witness.


8 Mr. Kearney, that raises another issue of whether it will be

9 better -- I take it that in view of proofing sessions often held prior to

10 a witness appearing in this courtroom, you would know better whether it

11 would serve the witness to start with the examination-in-chief for the,

12 well, let's say, 15 minutes, then have a break, and then to finish in the

13 remaining 45 minutes, or whether you think it would be better for the

14 witness to have a break now and then to ask him -- that you call him

15 after the break.

16 MR. KEARNEY: I think taking a break now would be a good idea,

17 Your Honour, just to allow us to get set up and have him to come into the

18 courtroom.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have a break until 20 minutes to

20 6.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.

25 Mr. Kearney, no protective measures?

Page 4379



3 Good afternoon, Mr. Cekaj. Can you hear me in a language you

4 understand?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can hear

6 you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then before you give -- before you --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you hear me?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Yes, Mr. Cekaj. We -- of course, we get

10 what you say translated in English, and we can hear you.

11 Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence

12 require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the

13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to

14 you by the usher, and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn

15 declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Honourable Judges, I solemnly

17 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

18 truth.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Cekaj. Please be seated.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cekaj, you'll be first examined by Mr. Kearney,

22 who is counsel for the Prosecution.

23 Mr. Kearney, did you explain, because I do understand that you

24 would like to have a 92 ter statement admitted. Have you explained to

25 Mr. Cekaj how this works?

Page 4380

1 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, I have, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, and also explain to the

3 Chamber exactly what the 92 ter statement is in this case. Yes.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examination by Mr. Kearney:

7 Q. Mr. Cekaj, good afternoon. Thank you for coming to The Hague

8 and --

9 A. Good afternoon to you.

10 Q. -- and thank you for your patience. First before we --

11 MR. KEARNEY: With the Trial Chamber's permission, before we get

12 into the 92 ter, I'd like to identify this witness formally for the

13 record, if I may.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


16 Q. Mr. Cekaj, I wonder if you could state your full name for the

17 record, please.

18 A. Shemsedin Cekaj.

19 Q. Could you please tell us both your date of birth and your place

20 of birth, sir?

21 A. I was born on the 23rd of May, 1958, in Irzniq, of Decani.

22 Q. What is your ethnicity, sir?

23 A. Albanian.

24 Q. And what is your father's name?

25 A. Osman.

Page 4381

1 Q. And lastly, could you tell us what your current occupation is and

2 what languages you speak?

3 A. I am a member of the Kosova Protection Corps, and I am chief of

4 operations in the guard of Kosova.

5 Q. And I'll ask you, sir, what languages do you speak?

6 A. I speak Albanian.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cekaj. Mr. Cekaj, last week on the 9th and 11th

8 of May, 2007, did you provide a statement here in The Hague to the

9 Prosecution which was reduced to writing?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And after that document was made, were you given an Albanian

12 translation of that to read on your own and make corrections to?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you do that, Mr. Cekaj? Did you read the document in

15 Albanian, make corrections, and have those corrections incorporated into

16 a final document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. After that process, were paragraphs from that longer statement

19 put into a shorter statement for your review as well?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And were you shown an Albanian copy of that document as well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And after being given that document, did you -- after making sure

24 it was accurate, did you sign it and then initial all the pages of that

25 document?

Page 4382

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, at this time with the Trial Chamber's

3 permission, I'd like to show this witness 65 ter Exhibit 1339, please.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. It needs a -- could you tell us what

5 it exactly is? Is that the 14th of May statement?

6 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, it is. This is the 14th of May --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. That's clear.

8 That needs a number to be assigned to it.

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we'll mark that for identification

11 as P317.


13 Are you going to show the hard copy to the witness or to --

14 MR. KEARNEY: It was not my intent to --

15 JUDGE ORIE: The electronic copy?

16 MR. KEARNEY: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

18 MR. KEARNEY: I just wonder if we can scroll down far enough so

19 the witness can see his signature at the bottom.


21 Would you please look at your screen, Mr. Cekaj. That's --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


24 Q. Mr. Cekaj, I would like to ask you, is that a copy of the

25 document you signed on the 14th of May, the shorter statement that we

Page 4383

1 talked about earlier?

2 A. Yes, that is the one, this is the document.

3 Q. Do you recognise your signature at the bottom of that first page?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does this document, Mr. Cekaj, reflect what you would say in

6 court today if you were questioned about these same topics?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I would tender this document at this

9 time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, with the -- what's the original and what's the

11 translation? Is the English the original or is the --

12 MR. KEARNEY: I believe -- are they all -- is the Albanian and

13 English included in this document?

14 JUDGE ORIE: No. The one you just showed to the witness is just

15 the Albanian front page, from what I see. You asked him about that.

16 MR. KEARNEY: May I have one moment.

17 [Prosecution counsel confer]

18 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, what I said earlier appears to be the

19 case, that this 65 ter number contains both the Albanian and the English

20 translation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but nevertheless I would like to know what you

22 consider to be the original and what to be the translation. I'll explain

23 to you why. Perhaps we -- perhaps I start doing that. Could a -- could

24 we look at paragraph 25 of this? Could that be on the screen, that's the

25 page 9? Could we zoom-in?

Page 4384

1 Mr. Cekaj, would you be so kind to read the first sentence of

2 paragraph 25, as it appears on your screen.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I returned from a meeting in

6 Irzniq on the 7th of July, around 5.00 in the morning, on the 8th of

7 July. Late in the morning somebody informed me that the Serb forces had

8 attacked Loxha from the Peje side. However, we did not go there because

9 we received information that other forces had gone to Loxha to reinforce

10 them."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I, first of all, seek clarification by the

12 interpreters whether there's a chance that there was a misinterpretation

13 as we returned from a meeting from Irzniq.

14 THE INTERPRETER: No, that's what the witness read.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's what -- yes.

16 Mr. Kearney, the reason why I'm raising this issue is the

17 following: Cutting and pasting is a dangerous exercise. If you look at

18 the earlier statement, the -- well, let's say the -- I think the 9th to

19 11th of May statement, then you find -- I think it's in paragraph 41, but

20 just -- yes. On page 41 -- paragraph 41, you find a description of a

21 meeting in lower Lluka, yes. Now, in paragraph 25 of the new statement,

22 the English text reads that: "I returned from a meeting held on the 7th

23 of July in lower Lluka." That might well be the case, but the Albanian

24 text doesn't say anything in paragraph 25 on where that meeting was held.

25 So apart from what seems now to be an additional problem on whether he

Page 4385

1 was returning from or to Irzniq, at least lower Lluka is introduced in a

2 mysterious way, not to say that it's not correct, but at least we now see

3 that the Albanian and the English version, at least in this respect, are

4 not the same. And it seems that something from the earlier statement

5 slipped in, I don't know inspired by whom, in the English version; where

6 the version the witness could read doesn't contain any such information.

7 That's the reason why I was asking what is the original -- it

8 might well be that this is just one single mistake. Of course, I

9 couldn't check all of the Albanian, and I'm not inclined to do so. But

10 cutting and pasting seems to be the new practice. Have a larger

11 statement, and extract a bit of it. And here we see that suddenly in the

12 extract, that we get information which is, at least in the two languages,

13 not the same, and that is of some concern. The Chamber very much

14 appreciates high precision in every respect.

15 I leave it up to the parties whether there's anything more of the

16 kind. I've got no idea, but this is what just caught my eye and I'd like

17 to bring that to your attention. We'll finally give a decision on

18 whether it will be admitted or not but first give an opportunity to the

19 Defence to further check.

20 I tried, as a matter of fact, to see whether that was the same in

21 the Albanian version of the 9th to the 11th of May, but we are provided

22 only with the English. So therefore, I do not know if there are any

23 problems there as well.

24 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, perhaps to circumvent this issue right

25 now, we can -- Prosecution can move on, not tender this document --

Page 4386

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- well, I take it you can -- it's now 20 lines

2 on the record, so I do not mind -- it's clear to everyone now that there

3 at least is a bit of a problem. Let's move on, but this is just again an

4 exercise which is aiming at highest precision possible.

5 Please proceed.

6 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you. And, Your Honour, between today and

7 tomorrow, we can revisit this.


9 MR. KEARNEY: We'll look at that document again, but thank you

10 for calling that to the Prosecution's attention.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


13 Q. Mr. Cekaj, I want to direct your attention, if I may, back to

14 late March of 1998. I want to ask you, sir, at that time where were you

15 living?

16 A. At the end of March 1998, I was living in Peje.

17 Q. Sir, as of that time, late March of 1998, had you as yet joined

18 the KLA?

19 A. I had not joined the KLA at that time, at the end of March 1998.

20 Q. I want to ask you, Mr. Cekaj, at that time, even as a civilian,

21 were you aware of any military activity taking place in or around Peje?

22 A. Yes. As a civilian, I had heard about Serbian forces that had

23 attacked the Jashari family in Prekaze on the 5th, 6th, and 7th, and then

24 the Haradinaj family on the 24th of March. And that was what inspired me

25 to join the KLA.

Page 4387

1 Q. Now, in addition to what you -- you heard through other people or

2 in the media, did you actually physically observe, either with your own

3 eyes or your own ears, from Peje military activity in late March of 1998?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us about that, please?

6 A. There were many Serb forces in Peje, police forces, and

7 paramilitary forces, other formations as well that used masks. They were

8 trying to intimidate the people.

9 Q. How about the sounds of any fighting? Were you aware of the

10 sounds of any fighting in late March of 1998, from your home in Peje?

11 A. Yes. You could hear shelling from Smolice and Gllogjan from

12 positions where the Serb forces were.

13 Q. And when you say -- the translation read: "From Smolice and

14 Gllogjan," I want to ask you, based on your hearing, were the -- where

15 was the artillery that was causing the shelling stationed?

16 A. They were shelling Smolice and Baballoq, Dubrave, up to the part

17 in the beginning where the Serb forces were attacking with artillery and

18 other weapons.

19 Q. Now, how often was this taking place, this is late March now of

20 1998?

21 A. These were concentrated attacks, intensive attacks, with a

22 certain intensity.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, could you please seek clarification on

24 the basis of hearing, from what I understood your question to be, from

25 Peje, exact locations at a distance of quite a number of kilometres

Page 4388

1 raises some additional questions. Could you please clarify that?

2 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Cekaj, this shelling you've talked about, is this -- first of

4 all, is this something that you actually heard with your own ears?

5 A. When artillery fire is there, you can hear it. You can hear the

6 shelling of heavy artillery. You can hear it from 2 or 3 kilometres

7 away, even farther away.

8 Q. So from your -- you're living in Peje at the time, sir. From

9 your home in Peje, could you hear the shelling?

10 A. You could hear it from the street. I could hear it from my home

11 where I lived. So we could hear the shelling, yes.

12 Q. You told us earlier that the shelling was directed towards

13 several villages, I think you mentioned Baballoq, Smolice, Dubrave, and

14 Gllogjan, how do you know that's where the shelling was directed?

15 A. Yes. The villages of Smolice, Baballoq, Gllogjan, I could see

16 them because I went illegally, I went in secret to my village to visit as

17 well, but I could hear the shelling from Peje as well. But, as I said, I

18 went to visit my village in secret several times.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, I'm being informed that there may

21 be a translation issue at page 84, line 25, and that "2 or 3 kilometres"

22 may be a mistranslation, and that the witness may have said "20 or 30

23 kilometres."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson, the proper way of doing it is

25 saying that it is the distance the witness described, then we put the

Page 4389

1 witness again to him, and then we'll hear what his evidence is --

2 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. It's --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Instead of giving -- if there's no mistranslation,

4 then at least there is then a suggestion that that would be the --

5 perhaps the right answer.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Well --

7 JUDGE ORIE: You understand that?

8 MR. EMMERSON: Clearly, the -- certainly, it was unintended.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I'm not saying that you had bad

10 intentions.

11 When you said that you could hear -- let me just have it again.

12 You said: "You can hear the shelling of heavy artillery, you can hear it

13 from," and then you gave the number of kilometres, and you said: "Even

14 farther away." How many kilometres you could hear from the shelling of

15 heavy artillery?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Peje and my village are 22

17 kilometres apart, while Gllogjan and other villages that were shelled are

18 about 4 kilometres from my village. So all in all, 26 kilometres I would

19 say, and you can hear them.


21 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

22 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

23 Q. This shelling that you're talking about, Mr. Cekaj, was it

24 happening on a daily, a weekly, a biweekly, a monthly basis? Please tell

25 us more about the -- the regularity of the shelling.

Page 4390

1 A. Almost every day at certain intervals.

2 Q. And how about KLA activity during this period in late March of

3 1998, were you aware of any activity on the part of the KLA at that time?

4 A. At that time, the KLA had just started to organise in the

5 villages that were under attack, after the event or the incident of the

6 24th in Gllogjan. So they organised themselves to defend their villages

7 in the event of a Serb attack so that the Serbs would not penetrate into

8 the villages.

9 Q. Now, I want to move on to a slightly different matter, if I may.

10 I want to ask you if as of late March of 1998, you had ever actually met

11 Ramush Haradinaj?

12 A. No.

13 Q. When was it that you first actually met Mr. Haradinaj, sir?

14 A. I met Ramush Haradinaj for the first time in my village, in

15 Irzniq, around mid-April.

16 Q. Do you remember the exact date of that meeting?

17 A. I can't remember the exact date, but around the 20th of April.

18 Q. Mr. Cekaj, how was it -- or how did you travel to that meeting

19 with Mr. Haradinaj from your village in Peje to Irzniq?

20 A. Not from the village, from Peje. I think that was wrong. I

21 established contact with Ramush Haradinaj through my brother, as I

22 mentioned, and I travelled in my car, with my family, through the

23 villages.

24 Q. Now, this is your April meeting with him. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's the April meeting.

Page 4391

1 Q. Now, when you say "through the villages," did you -- there is a

2 main road from Peje south towards Decane. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, there is a main road from Decane, but I did not follow that

4 one. I followed another road.

5 Q. What --

6 A. I went through Lybeniq, Strellc i Ulet, Pozhare, Kodrali, and my

7 village.

8 Q. Mr. Cekaj, why is it that you chose not to use the main road but

9 chose to go through the villages instead?

10 A. Because there were check-points, Serb check-points, and I feared

11 to go through those check-points.

12 Q. How about in the roads that went through the villages, who

13 controlled those roads at that time when you went from Peje to Irzniq?

14 A. In those villages there were young men, some wearing uniforms,

15 some did not have uniforms, I mean of the KLA.

16 Q. All those villages you mentioned earlier along that route from

17 Peje to Irzniq, were there KLA soldiers, whether they were in uniform or

18 out of uniform, in all those villages, Mr. Cekaj?

19 A. In some of the villages from Irzniq to other villages, I --

20 that's where I saw some members of the KLA, in some of their check-points

21 that they had, at the entrance of the village.

22 Q. And on your route from Peje to Irzniq, if you remember, what

23 villages had KLA check-points and which ones did you go through?

24 A. I went from Strellc i Ulet, there was one in Strellc i Ulet, then

25 Isniq, Lluka e Ulet, Pozhare, at the entrance to Kodrali, and Irzniq.

Page 4392

1 Q. Now, when you went to these check-points, were you allowed to

2 pass through?

3 A. At each check-point there was somebody who knew me, because I was

4 a well-known person in the area.

5 Q. Did you -- were documents being required at those check-points at

6 that time, if you know?

7 A. No, there was no need because there were people of my age who

8 knew me, and they were not alone there. There were other people

9 circulating. I had no problem going through.

10 Q. And based on your experience with the -- with the KLA and your

11 knowledge of the region, if you had not been known at that time, would

12 you have required some kind of permission or document to travel through

13 those check-points?

14 A. Had I been in their place, I would have asked for documents, but

15 they were there for security purposes.

16 Q. And what kind of documents would have been asked for at that time

17 at those check-points?

18 A. I don't think there were certain documents at the time, but after

19 that time there were some kind of permissions given just for safety and

20 security purposes so that they would not have problems in other

21 check-points.

22 Q. These are permissions that were given by the KLA to travel

23 through these check-points. Is that -- is that a fair statement?

24 A. Yes, yes. By the local staff of the village.

25 Q. All right. Thank you. I want to move now, if we may, to the

Page 4393

1 actual meeting itself with Mr. Haradinaj. This was, you said,

2 approximately 20th -- the 20th of April of 1998. I want to ask you,

3 Mr. Cekaj, where did this meeting take place, please?

4 A. The meeting took place in my brother's house.

5 Q. That was actually inside the village of Irzniq. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, in Irzniq, in my brother's house.

7 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Haradinaj, the -- on the day of your

8 arrival or had you been in the village for some period of time before you

9 met him?

10 A. The same day I arrived, I met Ramush Haradinaj.

11 Q. When you met him, was he alone or was he with someone?

12 A. It was Ramush Haradinaj and Togeri, Idriz Balaj.

13 Q. How were the men dressed at that time when you met them?

14 A. They were wearing uniforms, of course.

15 Q. And did these uniforms have UCK patches on them?

16 A. Yes, they had KLA patches.

17 Q. What colour were the uniforms at that time?

18 A. It was solid colour, dark colour.

19 Q. When you say "dark," was it a -- what type of dark shade?

20 A. It looked like green, dark green.

21 Q. Were they armed?

22 A. Pistols, light weapons.

23 Q. Now, at that time when you were meeting the person you identified

24 earlier as Togeri, had you ever seen this person before? Had you ever

25 met him before?

Page 4394

1 A. No. I hadn't met him before.

2 Q. When you met him at this meeting on the 20th of April in Irzniq,

3 how did he introduce himself to you? What name did he go by? Was it a

4 formal name or a nickname? What name did he give to you?

5 A. You're asking about the Toger, yes?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. The first contact was the introduction. We did not know each

8 other before, so first I presented myself, then Ramush Haradinaj and

9 Toger. That was his pseudonym, Toger.

10 Q. So the name that you were -- that this Toger introduced himself

11 to you as was actually Toger. Is that a -- is that a fair statement?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. At some point after that, Mr. Cekaj, did you learn his real name?

14 A. Not there, but later, not at that meeting.

15 Q. How much later did you learn his real name?

16 A. I think maybe after two months or three, I don't know.

17 Q. And what was his real name, please?

18 A. His name is Idriz Balaj.

19 Q. During your first conversation with the gentleman who identified

20 himself as Toger, who you've identified as Mr. Balaj, did you discuss

21 with him his level, if any, of military experience?

22 A. We discussed very briefly. I asked him whether he was an officer

23 by profession. He told me that he had some experience from the war in

24 Croatia, nothing else. That was very brief. It was a very short

25 conversation.

Page 4395

1 Q. Mr. Cekaj, at this meeting itself that you had with Mr. Haradinaj

2 and Mr. Balaj, how long did it last?

3 A. It continued about one hour.

4 Q. What was discussed, please, if you could tell us during that

5 meeting?

6 A. First, as I said, we introduced each other. I introduced myself

7 to Ramush Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj. It was very correct conversation.

8 We talked about the situation, about the difficult situation. At that

9 time, the people was in a difficult situation. We shared similar

10 opinions about the situation, so this was the essence of what we talked

11 all the time. So we talked about how we could organise better. We had

12 similar opinions about the situation which prevailed, about the situation

13 in which the people were at that time. The people were on the eve of an

14 unprecedented disaster. So these were all the things which I wanted to

15 tell you.

16 Q. Did you discuss the --

17 A. This was the essence of the conversation. It was a very correct

18 conversation, and I accepted with enthusiasm to have that conversation.

19 Q. Did you discuss the state of fighting in the Dukagjin Zone

20 generally at that time?

21 A. It was a situation -- also during the meeting we heard shots from

22 all kinds of weapons, from the place where --

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Only to be perfectly accurate, I don't believe it

24 was a defined Dukagjin Zone.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 4396

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe that the question asked by

2 Mr. Kearney is -- is accurate with regard to the time; that there was, in

3 fact, at the time of this discussion a recognised Dukagjin Zone. So it's

4 a mischaracterisation of the area at that time, and I just want to make

5 sure that it doesn't lead to -- lead to any confusion later on in the

6 record.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we heard -- yes.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps, more particularly, it's a

9 mischaracterisation of the testimony of this witness as recorded in his

10 own statements.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, we heard evidence about zones also

12 within the Dukagjin area. We have heard evidence about the Dukagjin

13 Plain. Could you please try to keep this as clear as possible.

14 MR. KEARNEY: I'll re-ask the question. I'm not quite sure how

15 to be more accurate, Your Honour, beyond to say:

16 Q. Mr. Cekaj, did you discuss the state of fighting at that time on

17 the - I'll use the word - Dukagjin Plain?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think the Dukagjin Plain was exactly --

19 MR. KEARNEY: If that makes it more clear.

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- what was established later. At least, that's the

21 first impression the evidence gives. Perhaps you describe the area. In

22 the area of villages so-and-so-and-so --

23 MR. EMMERSON: Or, indeed, in the Dukagjin area. It's a

24 geographical region of Kosovo. The word "zone" is what is -- is what is

25 the concern.

Page 4397

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that seems to refer rather to operations

2 than -- so "area" perhaps.

3 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I'm happy to use that word.


5 MR. KEARNEY: And it's not my intent to refer to any kind of

6 military zone at that time, but I will --

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, but that it might be misunderstood in that way.

8 So if you're talking about the area, we're just talking about

9 geographical area.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Cekaj, you've heard this conversation. I want to ask you now

12 the same question. During this 20th of April --

13 A. Yes, yes, I understood your question.

14 Q. All right. I want to substitute the word "Dukagjin area" for

15 Dukagjin Zone." Do you still have the question in mind, sir?

16 A. Yes, I understood your question. We discussed about the current

17 situation of the members of the KLA at that part to which Serbian forces

18 were attempted. There was shelling and also firing from all kinds of

19 weapons.

20 Q. The --

21 A. Every day, there were people who were injured. It was grave

22 situation. I saw from his face that he was very concerned about the KLA

23 members, so we discussed about the organisation, how we could organise

24 things better in order to protect.

25 Q. I understand that. And I want to ask you now about that -- that

Page 4398

1 KLA organisation that was discussed at that time and that was existing.

2 I want to ask you simply: During your April of -- your mid-April, your

3 April 20th of 1998 visit to Irzniq, was there a KLA presence in the

4 village of Irzniq at that time?

5 A. At the time, there were. The organisation in the village had

6 just begun. After 6th of April, they had come out in public in the

7 village, but only with a limited quantity of weapons. The organisation

8 was still at very initial stage.

9 Q. Can you please describe that organisation for us, please? What

10 were the -- the posts held, or just give us some more information about

11 that, please, if you could?

12 A. If you're asking me about that meeting with Ramush Haradinaj, at

13 that meeting I did not intervene, I did not ask questions about security.

14 At the end, I promise to him that very soon I would come back and see him

15 again.

16 Q. Did you -- beyond that meeting with Mr. Haradinaj and Toger on

17 the 20th of April, did you have contact with other KLA members in the

18 village of Irzniq on that trip?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm informed of another translation error, and

21 following Your Honour's guidance, it relates to page 94, line 19, and the

22 date which there appears.


24 Mr. Cekaj, you mentioned a date after which they had come out in

25 public in the village. Could you repeat the date?

Page 4399

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Irzniq?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But could you repeat the date you said

3 after --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So they appeared on 16th.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said "after." Did you mean to say:

6 "After the 16th of April"?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On 16th of April.

8 JUDGE ORIE: On the 16th of April.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Cekaj, do you have my last question in mind? Did you meet

12 with, on that April trip into Irzniq, any of the KLA that were in the

13 village at that time?

14 A. No, I didn't meet anyone.

15 Q. Now, you said that - this is at line 19 - that the organisation

16 in the village had just begun at that time. Describe the organisation

17 for us, please, that was existing at that time?

18 A. I am talking about the day when I met. I did not know how to

19 describe. I did not meet anyone. I returned to Peje, where I lived.

20 Q. I'm just asking you, sir, if -- you told us earlier that there

21 was some type of organisation in the village. I just want to ask you

22 what it was, very simply.

23 A. It was very simple organisation, to tell the truth. It was the

24 beginning of a public appearance that only check-points, nothing else.

25 Q. Was there a village commander in place at the time?

Page 4400

1 A. That I could talk to you about how -- about that after I

2 returned, so in the second half of May I learned about the command and

3 the staff in the village of Irzniq. But on that day I knew nothing, I

4 had no information about that.

5 Q. I wonder if it would refresh your memory, Mr. Cekaj, if I

6 referred you to your statement, the one that you made last week, that we

7 talked about earlier. This is at -- and I wonder -- I'm going to read a

8 sentence to you from that and I'm going to ask you if it refreshes your

9 memory about the level of organisation in Irzniq on -- during April of

10 1998, and this is at paragraph 11:

11 "When I went to the village to meet with Ramush on 16 April

12 1998, I learned that the Irzniq KLA HQ had already been established."

13 That's a quote from your statement, sir. I want to ask you if that's

14 accurate?

15 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].

16 It's not a quote from paragraph 11 of the 92 ter statement.

17 I'm --

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's paragraph 11 of the 9th to the 11th of May

19 statement.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I thought Mr. Kearney said the statement that he

21 was referring to earlier and introduced in evidence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let me just have a look.

23 MR. KEARNEY: I didn't mention anything about introducing it into

24 evidence.

25 MR. EMMERSON: So, I'm looking at line --

Page 4401

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, he said: "The one

2 that you made last week that we talked about earlier," and of course

3 in -- today Mr. Kearney has drawn the attention of the witness to

4 statements he gave earlier and then another statement on the 14th of --

5 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not complaining. I'm simply anxious to make

6 sure we're clear which passages is that we're referring to.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's clear that it's from the -- not

8 the 92 ter statement but the 9th to the 11th of May statement.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

11 Q. Mr. Cekaj, do you want me to read that statement again or do you

12 have it in mind still?

13 A. Please, can you?

14 Q. Yes, I'd be happy to. This is -- this is from the statement you

15 made last week, this is the longer statement that we talked about, the

16 one made between the 9th and the 11th of May of this year, 2007. The

17 first sentence this paragraph 11 you say:

18 "When I went to the village to meet with Ramush on 16 April 1998,

19 I learned that the Irzniq KLA HQ had already been established."

20 I want to ask you, sir, first of all, if -- if that's accurate?

21 A. As I said, it was established on 16th of April; however, I did

22 not talk to anyone about this.

23 Q. And how do you know, sir, it was established on the 16th of

24 April?

25 A. I learnt it from the members of my family.

Page 4402

1 Q. Which members of your family did you talk to in that regard,

2 please?

3 A. It was my brother; I had contacts through him. Ali was his name.

4 However, I did not meet members of the staff because I returned to Peje.

5 Q. And, Mr. Cekaj, thank you for that answer. I'm just asking you

6 simply: You're referring to the staff. Did your brother tell you who

7 was in the staff as of 16 April of 1998?

8 A. I did not talk about that matter.

9 Q. I'd like to ask you if the following sentence refreshes your

10 memory in this regard, this is the next sentence from the same paragraph:

11 "The Irzniq village commander was Maxhun Cekaj and the deputy

12 commander was Bajram Decaj. I was told at that time that there were 15

13 weapons in the village and that a group of villagers had gone to Albania

14 to collect more weapons?"

15 I'd like to ask you, first of all, if having read those two

16 sentences refreshes your memory in this regard?

17 A. Yes. We mentioned this. This is accurate, but -- this is

18 correct, yes.

19 Q. So on -- just to summarize now. On the 16th of April of 1998,

20 there was a village commander and a deputy village commander. Is that

21 true?

22 A. Yes, that's true. There were also other members.

23 Q. Do you know how many other members there were at that time,

24 please?

25 A. There were Shefqet Haskaj, so the names.

Page 4403

1 Q. I don't need names, Mr. Cekaj. Just tell us, if you could,

2 please, the number of KLA soldiers existing in mid-April of 1998, when

3 you went to visit Irzniq.

4 A. Sorry, are you asking me about the documents, about the thing

5 which I mentioned about 1992?

6 Q. No, I'm just asking you just in general. When you went -- your

7 first trip into Irzniq when you met with Mr. Haradinaj, you mentioned

8 already that there was a village commander and a deputy. How many

9 soldiers were under their command at that time?

10 A. At that time, a part of the villagers or members of the KLA had

11 gone to get weapons. However, there were only 15 weapons there. This is

12 what I have already declared.

13 Q. And to go with those 15 weapons, how many KLA soldiers were there

14 at that time in Irzniq?

15 A. As far as the correct number is concerned; however, on basis of

16 what I heard about the stuff, there were 120 but they were without

17 weapons.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, at that time, this is mid-April of 1998, was

19 there a Serb police or military presence in Irzniq?

20 A. The Serb police had already left the village of Irzniq.

21 Q. Do you know what day it was, Mr. Cekaj, that the -- the Serb

22 police withdrew from Irzniq?

23 A. It must have been 14th or 15th.

24 Q. That's of April?

25 A. April, that was before the meeting I had with Ramush Haradinaj.

Page 4404

1 Q. Now, after the -- the Serbs left the police station in Irzniq,

2 did the KLA effectively control Irzniq?

3 A. At that time, the check-points were set up on the side of the

4 village of Prilep with some improvised positions.

5 Q. During the -- the interview and statement process of last week,

6 Mr. Cekaj, did you draw a map of the KLA zone of control in the Dukagjini

7 area in the general months of April, May, and June of 1998?

8 A. As far as I remember, about May and April.

9 Q. Right, but you did draw -- draw on a map during the interview

10 process last week while you were here in The Hague. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, with the Trial Chamber's permission, I

13 would like to call up 65 ter Exhibit 1336, if I may.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the registrar is invited to attribute a

15 number to that document.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be marked for

17 identification as P318.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

19 Is the document in the process of being loaded?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it appears to be a large

21 document. It may take a few second to come up.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's known that maps take more time.

23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I wonder if -- do the Trial Chambers

24 want to go right to 7.00 or should we start with this tomorrow?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends on how much time it takes. If it

Page 4405

1 would take considerable time, then rather wait until it's on the screen

2 and then perhaps put no questions or not more than one or two. I'd like

3 to stop at two minutes to 7.00.

4 MR. KEARNEY: Perhaps while that's loading, Your Honour, I can --

5 I can ask a question or two at least.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


8 Q. Mr. Cekaj, while we're waiting for this map to appear on the

9 screen, when you filled in the map did you -- do you remember writing

10 words on the top and the bottom of the map?

11 A. Yes, I wrote and indicated.

12 Q. On the bottom of the map -- I'm sorry. On the bottom of the map,

13 do you remember writing your own name and the date that you were drawing

14 on the map?

15 A. I wrote and put the signature as well as the months in which KLA

16 was involved in that material. However, that was not for April, I think,

17 but for other months, that is, after 15th of May, if I'm not right --

18 wrong.

19 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, we now have the map on the screen.

20 I'm going to ask the witness first --

21 Q. Can you see that map, Mr. Cekaj?

22 A. Yes, I can see it, but it's very unclear.

23 MR. KEARNEY: I wonder if we could --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very, very small.

25 MR. KEARNEY: I wonder if we could magnify this map, Your Honour,

Page 4406

1 to allow the witness to see the writing on the top and the bottom if we

2 may.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if we -- after you've asked the witness that I

4 think we should take a break.

5 MR. KEARNEY: Can we start with the bottom, please?

6 Q. Mr. Cekaj, the words there that you see in the bottom of the

7 exhibit, you mentioned earlier that you signed this document. Is that

8 your signature there, please?

9 A. Yes, it's my name and my surname, the date, it's exact.

10 Q. That's the date that you drew on that map. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 MR. KEARNEY: Now, please, if we can move to the top of the

13 document.

14 Q. The words in Albanian there "Prill - Qershor - '98" can you

15 explain to us if you wrote those words and what they mean in English and

16 what you were -- first of all, tell us those two answers, please?

17 A. April-June, this is how it is written here.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I think we should --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You asked me where the KLA soldiers

20 could move at that time, so this was the area in which they could move.

21 They did not have positions at that time, only the villages were under

22 attack so ...

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Cekaj, it's 7.00. We'll stop for the day.

24 Mr. Kearney, I take it that this is a -- I take it that tomorrow

25 Mr. Kearney will continue with putting questions on this map. Before we

Page 4407

1 finally adjourn, I'd like to invite Mr. Usher to escort Mr. Cekaj out of

2 the courtroom.

3 Mr. Cekaj, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak

4 with anyone about your testimony, the testimony you've given today and

5 the testimony you're still about to give tomorrow. Is that clear to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, clear.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then please follow the usher.

8 Mr. Kearney, quite simple. The witness was scheduled for two

9 hours. Do you think you would manage?

10 MR. KEARNEY: May I have a moment before I answer, Your Honour?


12 [The witness stands down]

13 MR. KEARNEY: Coming into the courtroom, Your Honour, I had -- I

14 had planned on taking two hours. Given some of the initial questioning,

15 I may take a little longer than that. I --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's assume that since you have had

17 now, I think, approximately 45, 50 minutes, would another hour do?

18 MR. KEARNEY: You mean --

19 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, would another one hour and a half do? That

20 would bring you to two hours -- two and a half hours altogether. Would

21 that --

22 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, I hope so, sir, depending a bit on the witness

23 himself, but yes, I'll certainly try to hit that goal.


25 Could I ask the Defence how much time they have in mind they

Page 4408

1 would need for cross-examination of this witness?

2 MR. EMMERSON: Assuming that Mr. Kearney hits his goal --


4 MR. EMMERSON: -- I would aim to be between one and a half and

5 one and three-quarters hours with this witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Other counsel, please?

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: 45 minutes to an hour and five minutes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

9 MR. HARVEY: Approximately seven minutes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Harvey, it's good that you say it's

11 approximate and not exactly seven minutes.

12 I have to do some calculations. Tomorrow, we have four hours in

13 court. Let me just re-read again what the answers exactly were in order

14 not to make any mistake.

15 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honour, may I mention one thing during

16 the Court's calculation? This will be a map- and document-intensive

17 witness for the Prosecution. So I know that the process of just calling

18 up those documents takes some time itself, so there --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, if you would give

20 Mr. Registrar a list so that he well in advance in the subsequent order

21 you would like to use these maps, that already on the administrative

22 level it can be uploaded so that we don't lose time.

23 MR. EMMERSON: The Prosecution has given an indication to the

24 Defence as to the documents they intend to use, I'm not talking about the

25 maps but the contemporary documents. They are all, as far as we can

Page 4409

1 gather, documents that have been selected from the bundle that the

2 Defence produced to deal with the cross-examination of Rrustem Tetaj. In

3 other words, there is a hard copy bundle with those documents which

4 already have an index, and they're all now marked for identification on

5 the index, I believe, with Madam Registrar's help.

6 So it may be, in order to keep Mr. Kearney within his time-frame,

7 if that bundle were available tomorrow, he could -- he could use the

8 paper copies, which will save all the calling-up time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I go back to my calculations.

10 Yes. From what I see on the basis of the information the parties

11 have given, it -- it would be approximately three and a half -- four and

12 a half hours which would be needed. I would very much urge the

13 parties -- that means, Mr. Kearney, tomorrow you have one and a half hour

14 available.

15 Mr. Emmerson, you're expected to finish within one hour and 35

16 minutes.

17 Mr. Guy-Smith, you are expected to finish in 55 minutes.

18 And you, Mr. Harvey, in six minutes.

19 MR. HARVEY: Deal.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me now do the calculations again.

21 Now, I have to deduce from all parties, in order to save the six

22 minutes from Mr. Harvey, you would have one hour, 25 minutes,

23 Mr. Kearney; Mr. Emmerson, 1.30; Mr. Guy-Smith, you have 50 minutes.

24 Let's try to start in time. This is not a complaint. Sometimes

25 when we are outside this courtroom, we are waiting for everyone to be

Page 4410

1 ready in the courtroom. It happens now and then as well that people in

2 the courtroom are waiting until we have finished our discussions out of

3 the courtroom. So it's not blaming anyone, but let's try to get started

4 tomorrow, and tomorrow would be quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom

5 exactly.

6 We stand adjourned.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of

9 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.