Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5000

1 Wednesday, 30 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the

6 courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Before I give you an opportunity, Mr. Kearney, to continue the

12 examination-in-chief of Mr. Krasniqi, I'd like to say a few words.

13 Much has been said yesterday about the annexes to the statement of

14 this witness and to the annexes to his testimony in the Limaj case. First

15 of all, that's a very practical matter. Annex 5 to the transcript is the

16 same as annex 12 to the statement, and that's, as far as the Chamber could

17 see, the only double we find in this material.

18 Concerns have been expressed yesterday and issues have been raised

19 in how this material was handled and should be handled, both how it was

20 handled in the Limaj case and as it is handled now in this case. The

21 parties have made each other aware, and of course also have made the

22 Chamber aware, of all these concerns and issues raised. The Chamber

23 decided yesterday not to intervene any further. The Chamber has also

24 reviewed the annexes and found that much of what is described in these

25 annexes, many of them are outside the temporal scope of the indictment.

Page 5001

1 The Chamber did not find any direct links between some of the incidents

2 described -- the incidents described in these documents and the incidents

3 that are specifically mentioned in the indictment and with which the

4 accused are charged. So upon reviewing this material, the Chamber sees no

5 reason to change the attitude I expressed yesterday at the very end of the

6 hearing. The Chamber leaves it to the parties how to further present this

7 evidence - Mr. Kearney, you first - and also leaves it to the parties to

8 assess what is needed to challenge the evidence as presented until now in

9 this respect.

10 Finally, I would like to mention that, of course, the debate or

11 the discussions yesterday had a rather disruptive effect on the flow of

12 the evidence, and the Chamber would like not to see a similar disruption

13 of the flow of evidence when Mr. Kearney finishes the examination-in-chief

14 of this witness.

15 Then is -- Madam Usher, I'd like to ask you to escort the witness

16 into the courtroom.

17 I, meanwhile, take the opportunity to clarify the issue of the

18 admission of the testimony of this witness in the Limaj case. As a matter

19 of fact, I have to check that very carefully, that the number of pages

20 mentioned by the Prosecution as the transcript of the testimony of

21 Mr. Krasniqi in the Limaj case, I think, amounts to 255 pages, whereas the

22 Chamber was able to find 209 pages, I think I mentioned that number

23 yesterday, which actually is the testimony of Mr. Krasniqi. And to make

24 it even more clear, it's transcript pages 3285 up to and including 3493.

25 That's one.

Page 5002

1 Then, since the witness has not arrived yet, there were some

2 requests for sitting on the -- swapping on the 1st of June from afternoon

3 to morning. Mr. Guy-Smith, I think that was a special wish. The Chamber

4 has seriously considered it, but due to commitments of a majority of the

5 Judges of this Chamber it, unfortunately, is not possible.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand and thank everybody for the attention

7 to my request.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then, as far as the 5th of June is concerned,

9 there also was a matter, the parties are invited to see whether a solution

10 could be found in calling a witness on the 5th of June which might not be

11 of vital importance for the case.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have made that suggestion beforehand and we have

13 yet to resolve it.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you were on your feet, at the same time

16 the witness --

17 MR. EMMERSON: The matter can wait.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, I would like to remind you that the

19 solemn declaration you gave yesterday at the beginning of your testimony

20 still binds you when answering questions.

21 Mr. Kearney, please proceed.

22 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I plan also to be very brief today. I

23 do have one matter that relates to this witness. The Chambers asked the

24 Prosecution yesterday to prepare a formal list comparing Limaj exhibits to

25 the 92 ter exhibits. I have those now. I passed those out to the

Page 5003

1 Defence. Would the Court --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. Then at least we have the P

3 exhibit numbers in Limaj so we have an overview of everything, which makes

4 it easier for Madam Registrar to get the numbers into the computer. If

5 you hand it out, Madam Usher, Mr. Kearney I think would like to be -- yes,

6 then please proceed.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is one last matter, Your Honour, I do

8 apologise. I didn't get a chance to speak to Mr. Kearney about this

9 before. I was wondering what the status is with regard to those

10 disclosure items that were discussed late yesterday, the delivery of the

11 books --

12 MR. KEARNEY: We called Pristina today, Your Honour. Apparently

13 Mr. Krasniqi's correct that he gave the books to an OTP representative.

14 He gave -- the witness did give the books to an OTP representative on

15 Monday in Pristina. I understand that they, after that, were DHL'd or in

16 the process of being DHL'd. The Prosecution here in The Hague has not

17 received them yet unfortunately.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that as soon as they've arrived that

19 you immediately review that and disclose it to the Defence.

20 MR. KEARNEY: Of course, yes, sir.


22 Then please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examination by Mr. Kearney: [Continued]

Page 5004

1 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, good afternoon.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'd like to follow-up very briefly on a few things

4 that you said yesterday, the first one being at line 49 -- page 4958 of

5 your testimony at line 6. You told us, sir, yesterday that - and I'm

6 quoting - "but in 1998, I had almost daily contacts with the soldiers and

7 with the operational units of the KLA."

8 Now, I want to ask you, sir, to explain that for us, if you would.

9 Does that mean that on a daily basis you physically called different zones

10 or different units within Kosovo?

11 A. I was in the areas where the KLA was operating. I was in contact

12 with the soldiers in the area where I was living; however, the contacts

13 with our other areas or other zones were from time to time, depending on

14 necessity.

15 Q. And where were you living, please, and what zone -- well, just

16 tell us first where were you living in 1998?

17 A. In 1998, I lived in my native village until June; after June 1998,

18 I lived in the villages in the Berisha mountains in Divjake, Klecke, and

19 Novo Selle or Fshati i Ri.

20 Q. The contact you had with soldiers in other zones outside of the

21 one you were living in, could you please tell us was that on a regular

22 basis, a weekly basis, a monthly basis, was it dependent on facts on the

23 ground? Please tell us more about that.

24 A. Our contacts could not be weekly contacts because of the situation

25 and because of the fightings that were going on in the summer of 1998.

Page 5005

1 Whenever there was need, we had physical contacts with the zones, but

2 these were much more infrequent. Most frequent contacts were the

3 telephone contacts and satellite telephone contacts.

4 Q. And how often were those telephone contacts with the zones beyond

5 the one you were living in?

6 A. It's difficult for me to say how frequent they were. They could

7 have been weekly contacts or sometimes we could communicate twice a day,

8 sometimes every ten days. It depended on the developments on the ground

9 at that time. So sometimes the contacts were more frequent and sometimes

10 they were not that frequent. This depended on the needs of the General

11 Staff of the KLA.

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, these calls that you just described to the other

13 zones, who would initiate those calls? Would it be you calling the zones,

14 or would it be the people in the zones calling you?

15 A. It depended. If I needed to know about the developments on the

16 ground, I called them, while in the case when the zones had a certain need

17 or needed to contact us, they contacted us. The commander of the zone

18 could contact us or people who were designated to deal with information

19 issues, they contacted us.

20 Q. When you say that if you needed to know about the developments on

21 the ground, you would yourself call the zones, when you say "developments

22 on the ground," what are you referring to?

23 A. I'm referring to the fightings that were occurring in various war

24 zones.

25 Q. If there was fighting going on in a particular zone, why would you

Page 5006

1 make a call to that zone? What was your purpose, Mr. Krasniqi, in making

2 those calls?

3 A. The purpose was to get acquainted with the situation, how the

4 fighting occurred, and whether we had any losses on our part, and what the

5 losses of the enemy were.

6 Q. In relation to the actual fighting that was going on on the

7 ground, when would you make these calls? Would it be the same day? The

8 day after? Within two days? Could you give us any more detail about

9 that, please?

10 A. Whenever it was possible, we called them the same day. When it

11 was not possible, we communicated the next day. But as I said, this

12 communication was via satellite telephone. We did not have any other

13 possibilities to communicate.

14 Q. Now, when you say that when it was possible we called them the

15 same day," who do you refer to when you say "we," please?

16 A. We who were working in the General Staff, and the General Staff

17 has -- had a limited administration body.

18 Q. Now, you said earlier that on occasion the commander - this is at

19 line 17, page 6 - "the commander of the zone would contact us or people

20 who were designated to deal with information issues, they contacted us."

21 What would those people, either the commanders in the zones or

22 their designees call you about?

23 A. They would call us to inform us about the situation, and they

24 would ask for assistance and things like these.

25 Q. When you say they would ask you for assistance, what do you mean

Page 5007

1 by that, Mr. Krasniqi? What kind of assistance would zone commanders ask

2 you for?

3 A. The zone commanders, but even other units, smaller combat units,

4 whenever they would be attacked by enemy forces the -- and the forces of

5 that unit were limited, they asked for assistance, for reinforcement by

6 other units that were closer to the area of the fighting.

7 Q. You mentioned earlier the general time-period for these

8 communications being, I think, the summer of 1998. Can you be more

9 specific, please, about what time-period you're referring to?

10 A. I'm referring to the time-period after June 1998, end of July,

11 August, and September where the major fighting occurred. Everybody knows

12 about the offensive of 1998, the summer offensive.

13 Q. How about the period before July of 1998, the first half, if you

14 will, of 1998? Describe, please, for us the communication you had with

15 the zones during that period.

16 A. Before I speak about this, we have to make a distinction between

17 the various development stages of the army. Before summer 1998, the KLA

18 was a guerilla army. It had limited access to areas and limited number of

19 soldiers. It was an army that was a guerilla army with guerilla units

20 that used the hit-and-run tactics. These units had a number of people,

21 but this number was limited, and they all acted clandestinely.

22 After February 1998, 28th of February, 1998, when 24 people were

23 massacred in Likoshan and Qirez, and after the events of the 5th, 6th, and

24 7th of March, 1998, people wanted to join the KLA en masse and this was

25 the time when the General Staff did not have enough senior officers to

Page 5008

1 respond to this request. Many people joined the KLA and various units of

2 the villages joined the KLA, but they were outside the control and the

3 structures, the normal structures of the KLA. This -- the army was mostly

4 of a voluntary and people's army character, and people who had been

5 appointed as responsible persons for certain areas were also asked to

6 contact the KLA. So, for example, the General Staff at various times had

7 to have these talks with representatives of villages who sometimes had

8 only hunting guns at their disposal, and we wanted them to become part of

9 a more organised structure led by the General Staff.

10 So we can say that in -- during the period June, July, and August

11 we had this people's army, a voluntary army, and the first attempts to

12 have a better-organised army were being made at that time. But then the

13 summer offensive started, so it was impossible to have this better

14 organisation of the KLA. The summer offensive thwarted our efforts to

15 better organise ourselves. So until October 1998, we were not able to

16 consolidate the KLA, while in November 1998 we had a quieter period. The

17 Holbrooke-Milosevic Agreement was signed, and we exploited this quieter

18 period to organise ourselves. We had the companies, the battalions, and

19 the brigades of the KLA. So the organisation and the discipline were

20 better towards the latter part of the year than the beginning of the year.

21 But still, it was far from being a well-organised army in the proper

22 military sense of the word.

23 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, thank you for that answer, but I'd like, if I may,

24 to draw your attention back to the time-period after the attacks you

25 mentioned in February and early March of 1998. I want to ask you simply

Page 5009

1 if, after those attacks, your communication with the subzones increased,

2 the General Staff's communication with the subzones increased?

3 A. With the increase in the numbers of the KLA, the communications

4 increased as well. But there were armed groups of villagers who were

5 outside of this control, so we had to work in various directions at the

6 same time. But we did not have the manpower to work with all of them. So

7 I wouldn't say that we had the proper communication. We communicated in

8 the -- all the areas as we should have done.

9 Q. With regard to the Dukagjin Zone in particular, beginning in March

10 of 1998, who did you have contact with within that zone? Who did you talk

11 to, please?

12 A. At that time I did not communicate with anyone in the Dukagjini

13 Zone.

14 Q. Did anyone in the General Staff contact with -- have contact with

15 people in the Dukagjini Zone at that time, to your knowledge?

16 A. Well, at that time I cannot say who communicated with them. I can

17 only say -- I can only speak of the period after June 1998.

18 Q. And after June of 1998, who did you contact -- who did you have

19 contact with within the Dukagjini Zone when you were calling them on

20 behalf of the General Staff?

21 A. We also contacted in other ways, not only by telephone. So in

22 June 1998, for example, I contacted with Lahi Brahimaj; he was also a

23 member of the General Staff of the KLA.

24 Q. I'm referring now to KLA soldiers on the ground in Dukagjini Zone,

25 beginning in June of 1998. Who did you have contact with, please?

Page 5010

1 A. I contacted Lahi Brahimaj.

2 Q. Was he the only person within the Dukagjini Zone that you ever

3 talked to after June of 1998?

4 A. He was the person that I knew and the person I communicated with,

5 and I think he was responsible for the area at that time. Later on I also

6 contacted Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, the commander of the zone. I think it was

7 only once, end of June or beginning of July, but I can't remember the

8 exact date.

9 Q. Earlier you told us that after June of 1998 you had -- you began

10 to have more regular contact with the zones, and you described for us the

11 communications you had with people on the ground about operational detail.

12 I'd like to ask you, after June of 1998, when you received information

13 from operational units on the ground, what did you do with that

14 information, sir, as a member of the General Staff? Did you publish it?

15 Did you record it somehow? What did you do with that information?

16 A. The information did not come only to us. The information about

17 the developments on the ground went also to the media, international media

18 and Albanian media. Of course we had other duties. We had organisational

19 duties as well, and we also compiled political statements where we set out

20 all the strategy and the political opinions of the KLA, but also we

21 reflected in those statements the fighting that was occurring at the time

22 in Kosova.

23 Q. When you reflected the fighting that was ongoing in Kosovo in

24 those statements, did you base those statements in part on information you

25 received from the zones from the soldiers on the ground?

Page 5011

1 A. Our political stand had been formed already, even before these

2 actions and combat operations occurred. We had compiled these political

3 statements to boost the morale of the members of the KLA, of the citizens

4 of Kosova. We wanted to gain the respect of the citizens of Kosova and

5 also inform the international community about the right and just war that

6 the Kosovo Liberation Army was waging.

7 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm not just talking about your political or your

8 policy statements; I'm referring to press releases, communiques, that were

9 made after June of 1998. Did you incorporate data that you had learned

10 from the soldiers you talked to on the ground into those releases and

11 communiques?

12 A. The communiques included information from the fighting on the

13 terrain, sometimes maybe somewhat exaggerated, but this was because of the

14 propaganda campaign that we were waging and we wanted to inform the public

15 opinion. As I said, sometimes we exaggerated our successes and

16 exaggerated enemy's losses, while trying to diminish our losses and our

17 casualties; that was the purpose.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krasniqi. And I'm aware of your propaganda role as

19 well as you talked about -- as you defined it yesterday. But I want to

20 ask you: When you were reporting operational details in your statements

21 to the press, in your communiques, I understand that the -- the scope and

22 magnitude of some of these details were exaggerated. But the basic facts

23 about date, location, time, were those accurate, sir?

24 A. It's difficult for me to say whether everything was accurate. We

25 were trying to describe the actions that were taking place on the ground.

Page 5012

1 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, my question is even more simple than that. I just

2 want to ask you: Were there times in your communiques where you just

3 completely invented a battle that never happened or completely invented or

4 just created an incident that was completely untrue that had no basis in

5 fact?

6 A. I did not release any announcements about facts that did not exist

7 or occur. I tried to reflect on the events that really happened, but

8 trying to have this optimistic tone and trying probably to exaggerate a

9 bit.

10 Q. All right. Thank you. Just a brief question, Mr. Krasniqi.

11 Before you were appointed spokesman for the KLA on 11 June 1998, who was

12 the spokesperson before you took that job? Did you have a predecessor?

13 A. There wasn't anybody who was a predecessor.

14 Q. Were there -- before you took sole responsibility of the job, were

15 there several people who -- on the General Staff who dealt with the media

16 or issued releases?

17 A. Before that period, it was the Zeri i Kosoves newspaper who acted

18 as the political wing of the KLA and they published releases.

19 Q. And were those then adopted by the General Staff?

20 A. I already explained yesterday that the General Staff during this

21 period had some members in Kosova, but many other members were in

22 Switzerland and Albania.

23 Q. Thank you for that information, Mr. Krasniqi, but I want to ask

24 you again: You told us yesterday that all the annexes to your statement

25 were communications or reports that accurately reflected statements that

Page 5013

1 were issued by the UCK General Staff. I'd like to ask you: How did

2 this -- how did the General Staff interact with Zeri i Kosoves?

3 A. From the time that I was appointed spokesperson, we communicated

4 with Zeri i Kosoves by satellite telephone. I don't know how they

5 communicated before my time. Maybe they used another means of

6 communication, but I don't know.

7 Q. But my question is more basic: Who was the person who actually

8 had contact with Zeri i Kosoves? Who called them on the phone?

9 A. Before my time as a spokesperson, I don't know; but when I became

10 a spokesperson, it was me mainly.

11 Q. But someone from the General Staff called them with information

12 about operations on the ground; is that a fair statement?

13 A. I will repeat myself. As for the earlier period, I don't know;

14 but as of the time when I became the spokesperson, I did this job.

15 Q. I'm not asking you for a name, Mr. Krasniqi, but I'm just asking

16 you: Did members of the KLA General Staff contact Zeri i Kosoves before

17 you became spokesperson in June of 1998?

18 A. Well, most probably yes, because as I said Zeri i Kosoves in a way

19 was a body of the Kosova People's Movement, but before June 1998, before

20 the consolidation of the General Staff, the LPK and Zeri i Kosoves acted

21 as the political wing of the Kosova Liberation Army.

22 Q. Thank you. I now want to ask you a little bit about the

23 time-period after you became spokesperson. The annexes that you have in

24 front of you, do you still have the book of annexes in front of you,

25 Mr. Krasniqi?

Page 5014

1 JUDGE ORIE: If not, they should be given to Mr. Krasniqi.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you. These are now part of Exhibit 328,

5 Your Honour.

6 Q. The last six of these annexes, 14 through 19, were they statements

7 or interviews made by you after you became the KLA press person? Is that

8 a fair statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. One of those annexes attached to Exhibit 328 - this is annex 12,

11 strike that, this is annex 18 - is part of a long interview you gave to

12 Koha Ditore in July of 1998. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. As a spokesperson for the Kosovo Liberation Army, what was your

15 purpose in giving that interview, please?

16 A. Up to that time, the KLA had not revealed to that extent its

17 political programme and had not communicated directly with the public

18 information media and as a spokesperson, as -- lacking a spokesperson or a

19 figure that would represent the KLA in this time. So this was a purpose

20 to familiarise the public opinion about the political programme and the

21 purpose of the KLA's war. Until that time, the information about the KLA

22 was limited and even the citizens of Kosova had acquainted that

23 information through media. So now there existed an address, both for the

24 public opinion and for a media.

25 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, was there a reason that you chose Koha Ditore as the

Page 5015

1 outlet to issue this communication regarding the political programme of

2 the KLA?

3 A. Koha Ditore was the most-read newspaper at that time in Kosova.

4 And at the same time, it was the newspaper that in one way or another

5 supported the most the activities of the KLA, in addition to Zeri i

6 Kosoves that was published in Switzerland.

7 Q. Did this newspaper have readership in Kosovo outside of Pristina

8 itself?

9 A. To my recollection, there were readers both in Kosova and in the

10 diaspora, in Switzerland and in Germany.

11 Q. Was this newspaper read by KLA soldiers themselves who were

12 engaged in the fighting?

13 A. The newspapers could not penetrate that easily in combat zones,

14 but they did; and when they did, of course they were read.

15 Q. Who did you wish to communicate your -- the KLA's political

16 programme to? Was it -- was it Albanians living in Kosovo? Was it Serbs

17 in Kosovo? Was it the international community? Who did you intend to

18 receive this -- this message you were giving to Koha Ditore in July of

19 1998?

20 A. The main audience was the Albanian people inside Kosova and

21 abroad. Of course Koha Ditore at that time was a prestigious newspaper,

22 well-known, and was read regularly by international representatives in

23 Kosova. As for the international opinion is concerned, after this

24 interview I had interviews also with a journalist from CNN, BBC, and other

25 media. However, we informed the public opinion of the political programme

Page 5016

1 of the KLA through political statements and through -- that were published

2 in Deutsche Welle and BBC and interviews with these agencies.

3 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm almost done here. This -- under annex 18, this

4 exhibit, you have told us already that this is a full and accurate

5 reflection of the interview you gave to Koha Ditore. Is that true?

6 A. That's true.

7 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'd like to direct your attention to the last page

8 of this document.

9 MR. KEARNEY: For the Court, again, this is Exhibit 328, pages 82

10 through 88 of the original 65 ter number which is 1346, if that helps. I

11 wonder if we could go to the last page of this document in the English.

12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, this page has on it a series of questions by

13 Koha Ditore and answers by yourself. I want to direct your attention, if

14 I may, to the approximate middle of the page, and there's a clause in the

15 lower portion of the large or the long answer you give on that page which

16 begins: "Even if some people have suffered ..."

17 Can you find that, please, for us and let us know when you're

18 there.

19 A. It's a very small font. Can you tell me which line it is?

20 Q. Yes. And, Mr. Krasniqi, I can read it out for you if that will

21 help you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I have not found it yet, as a matter of

23 fact.

24 MR. KEARNEY: This is --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, there are page numbers on P328, 94 pages in

Page 5017

1 total. Which one?

2 MR. KEARNEY: This is the ERN number on the document, Your Honour,

3 if the Court can see that --


5 MR. KEARNEY: -- The original ERN was 0 -- U0038589 --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've got it. Could you then please guide us

7 where approximately to find the passage.

8 MR. KEARNEY: There is a highlighted passage there on the page.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.


11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm going to read you a few lines -- a few sentences

12 from this statement. I'm going to ask you first if -- and then ask you if

13 you can find those.

14 "We do not go in for kidnapping. Even if some people have

15 suffered, these have been more Albanian collaborators than Serbian

16 civilians. We do not deal with civilians, and we return those whom we

17 take as prisoners of war. A few days ago we handed over two Serbs

18 originating from Croatia to the International Red Cross" --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney --


21 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, can you find that passage?

22 A. [Microphone not activated]

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The font is very small. I can't see

25 it.

Page 5018


2 Q. Do you see the words "International Red Cross" on that page?

3 Mr. Krasniqi, if it helps you, this is approximately two paragraphs up

4 from the very bottom of the interview, the very end of the interview. In

5 that location, there's a sentence where the words "International Red

6 Cross" are mentioned."

7 Mr. Krasniqi, I --

8 MR. KEARNEY: This document is being brought up on e-court. Is

9 that correct?

10 Perhaps at this time, Your Honour, with the Court's permission I

11 can just read out this paragraph or we can do it on re-direct and I will

12 endeavour to get a clearer copy for the witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so, Mr. Kearney.


15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I'm just going to read it out to you and ask you if

16 you recognise your own words in this interview. Mr. Krasniqi, do you

17 understand that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "Even if some people have suffered, these have been more Albanian

20 collaborators than Serbian civilians" --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, when you read, please slowly.

22 MR. KEARNEY: Okay.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You're developing a speed which is -- cannot be

24 followed.

25 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

Page 5019

1 Q. Do you recognise that sentence I just read to you, Mr. Krasniqi,

2 as being your own words?

3 A. I don't remember saying it exactly as it is. I have to see it

4 first.

5 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, perhaps this is an issue that we can

6 better take up in re-direct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It must not be that difficult to find that portion,

8 isn't it?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that in the Albanian original

10 the relevant passage is in the last column on the second page.


12 Q. Mr. Krasniqi --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just seek the assistance of the interpreters.

14 Is that approximately at where the upper arm on the picture is?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 Mr. Krasniqi, you'll find that portion you see at your right-hand

18 side, you see a picture of a person. Look in the last column,

19 approximately at the level where the upper arm of that person is and tell

20 us whether you could find the -- and does the witness have it in black and

21 white because it's -- doesn't make it any clearer, I would say.

22 You found it, Mr. --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's good. Then could you please read the portion

25 that was just read to you by Mr. Kearney.

Page 5020

1 Since the witness has found it, Mr. Kearney, you can put your

2 question to him.


4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, again I'm going to read out to you four consecutive

5 sentences from that text. I'll do it very slowly. At the end of it I'm

6 going to ask you if you recognise those words.

7 "We do not go in for kidnapping. Even if some people have

8 suffered, these have been more Albanian collaborators than Serbian

9 civilians. We do not deal with civilians and we return those whom we take

10 as prisoners of war. A few days ago we handed over two Serbs originating

11 from Croatia to the International Red Cross. Those we have kidnapped are

12 either announced in a list or reported to be executed, but we do not

13 behave in a base fashion like Serbia."

14 My question is: Do you see those words, Mr. Krasniqi, in that

15 document?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. KEARNEY: No further questions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to ...

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. --

22 MR. EMMERSON: I thought Your Honour had a matter you wanted to

23 raise.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I just wanted to consult with my colleagues for a

25 second.

Page 5021

1 Mr. Krasniqi, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who is

2 counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

4 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi.

6 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, can I --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Can I deal with two administrative matters. I

9 noticed that yesterday afternoon when certain questions were asked which

10 involved reference to the Limaj transcript, that Your Honours were obliged

11 to follow it from the screen. And since I'm going to be touching on one

12 or two passages, I've had hard copies --

13 JUDGE ORIE: At least I took the Limaj transcript with me.

14 MR. EMMERSON: I have had some hard copies prepared for the Bench,

15 so --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you provide them to us, then it will

17 certainly assist.

18 MR. EMMERSON: It makes for a smoother cross-examination. And the

19 other document that I wanted, if I may, to provide to you and to the

20 witness is a record of an interview conducted with this witness by OTP

21 investigators on the 4th of May, 2004. Now, there is an Albanian

22 translation which I'm having handed to the witness, and then the English

23 original which is being handed to Your Honours and a copy is available for

24 Mr. Kearney, although I imagine he has it already. And for the record,

25 those investigator notes are Defence document 1D410081, although I don't

Page 5022

1 at this stage ask either that they be marked for identification or

2 tendered. But if they're to be brought up on the screen, that is their

3 identification number. I think hard copies have been provided to the

4 translation booths. Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I want to start, if I may, by asking you some

6 questions about the General Staff itself. And I think you have given

7 evidence in the past and confirmed it to us, I believe, that you joined

8 the General Staff yourself sometime at the end of 1996 or the beginning of

9 1997. Is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. I want, if I may, please, to have a sense of what that meant in

12 reality so that the Trial Chamber has a picture of what state of

13 organisation the body describing itself as a General Staff was in when you

14 joined it. First of all, you came to join the General Staff how exactly,

15 yourself?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney.

17 MR. KEARNEY: Just very briefly, and I don't want to interrupt the

18 cross-examination. My colleague mentioned a statement to us earlier, was

19 that a statement made by this witness to the Defence and --


21 MR. KEARNEY: It was not?

22 MR. EMMERSON: No I meant --

23 JUDGE ORIE: He's referring to the investigator's note.

24 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm sorry, I meant a statement made to us in

25 court, in this witness's testimony.

Page 5023

1 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you. I stand corrected.


3 Q. So just to repeat my question, Mr. Krasniqi, how did you,

4 yourself, come to join this group of people styling themselves a General

5 Staff?

6 A. This requires a broader explanation, how I came to join. I was a

7 political prisoner in -- from 1981 until 1991. In 1991, late 1991, there

8 was an armed attack against the Jashari family and there were fighting

9 between the members of the Adem Jashari family and the Serbian police. In

10 July 1991, I was released from prison and in the autumn of that year I

11 engaged in politics. I became at that time a member of the Democratic

12 League of Kosova.

13 During that fighting on the 30th of December, 1991, that very

14 night, I contacted, in Polac, Adem Jashari and his armed formation. I'm

15 saying this because my contacts with the men from the operations, such as

16 Adem Jashari at the time who had started the preparations for armed

17 uprising as early as in the 1990s, I was familiar with these people. I

18 had contacts with them. I contacted and knew other persons of this type,

19 former political prisoners. In 1993, several members of the LPK were

20 arrested. During this time, there were people who were ready to form and

21 establish the political wing of the LPK. During this time-period, I was

22 in contact with both political and operational staff, but these contacts

23 were very rare, not that frequent, because I was a political activist

24 acting illegally --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Legally, correction.

Page 5024

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- And I was being persecuted.


3 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, forgive me for interrupting your answer. The

4 question that I want to ask you to focus on is specifically asking about

5 the end of 1996 and the beginning of 1997 when you came to join this group

6 of people calling themselves a General Staff. Now, specifically in

7 relation to that process, who asked you to be a member of the General

8 Staff or did you ask yourself?

9 A. As I said, I had contacts with KLA people even earlier, but

10 because of the fact that the KLA was getting better organised, especially

11 the operational part, I was the political person who was familiar with the

12 developments in Kosova. And they decided, due to this better organisation

13 and with a purpose of establishing the political wing, the commander of

14 the KLA, Adem Jashari, requested me that I became member of the KLA

15 General Staff and deal mainly with the political staff.

16 Q. So Adem Jashari asked you to join and to take responsibility for

17 political rather than operational and military matters; is that the

18 position?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. And at that time in 1997, is it right that you didn't

21 know who the other members of the General Staff were?

22 A. I didn't know all of them.

23 Q. Can you give us a sense of how many people there were who claimed

24 to be members of the General Staff in total, that is, including those you

25 didn't know?

Page 5025

1 A. Well, during this period of time, the General Staff consisted of

2 approximately ten persons but not all of them knew each other because some

3 were acting illegally, some legally, some were abroad. Basically we had

4 to suit the conditions we were operating in.

5 Q. I understand, but just so that we have a picture. If you didn't

6 know who a number of these people were, presumably you had no means of

7 communicating with them --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we ask the witness to answer that question, I

11 noticed that you started your question about the end of 1996/early 1997,

12 and in the next question you said: "At that time in 1997" --


14 JUDGE ORIE: -- which seems to cover at least a larger

15 time-period, exclude 1996. I don't know whether that has been

16 sufficiently --

17 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- clear and whether your last question would be

19 limited to the initial period you mentioned or whether it would cover the

20 whole of 1997.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I'll clarify that. I take Your Honour's point.



24 Q. Did it remain the position for the whole of 1997 that there were

25 people amongst that ten whose names and identities you did not know at

Page 5026

1 that time? Did that remain the position throughout 1997?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And would it be fair to say that you did not know the names of

4 more than half or less than half of the other members of the body calling

5 itself the General Staff?

6 A. Well, it's difficult to say now because I know all of them now,

7 but at the time I did not know some of them.

8 Q. Yes. And I think you knew, obviously, Adem Jashari, is that

9 correct, and you knew he was a member --

10 A. Yes. Correct.

11 Q. And you knew Sokol Bashota and Rexhep Selimi. Is that correct?

12 A. I knew Sokol at the time but not Rexhep.

13 Q. So you knew Adem Jashari and Sokol Bashota. Did you know

14 Hashim Thaqi at the time by name?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So did you know all three of them were members of the

17 General Staff in 1997, is that something you knew at that time?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you, in fact, know the names of any other members of the

20 General Staff at that time, Mr. Krasniqi, during 1997?

21 A. I knew of Azem Syla being a member in 1997.

22 Q. Very well. And is that a total of the names you then knew at that

23 time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So if there were ten altogether, you knew the names of five

Page 5027

1 including yourself. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And were those five all inside Kosovo or were they themselves

4 spread across Kosovo and Albania?

5 A. Except Azem and Hashim Thaqi, the rest were in Kosova.

6 Q. I see.

7 A. Azem and Hashim would go to Albania and Switzerland. They

8 remained in Kosovo for a limited period of time. Or they -- when they

9 came, they acted clandestinely.

10 Q. So --

11 A. I mention -- I say illegal but I mean clandestine.

12 Q. So essentially do we have -- so essentially, Mr. Krasniqi, can you

13 confirm then that the position is this: There were three people,

14 including yourself, who were based inside Kosovo during 1997 who you knew

15 to be members of the General Staff. There were two who were based outside

16 Kosovo who you knew to be members of the General Staff. And there were

17 five other members of the General Staff whose identity you did not know.

18 Is that the position?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And those five were distributed across what is described as the

21 diaspora, Switzerland, Germany, the United States, France, Scandinavian

22 countries; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. They lived in the western states. These were citizens of

24 Kosova that had left Kosova.

25 Q. And do you know how any of them came to be selected for the

Page 5028

1 so-called General Staff during that period?

2 A. Not during 1997.

3 Q. And presumably, if you didn't know who these people were, you

4 can't have had much in the way of direct communication with them, could

5 you, during 1997?

6 A. Of course, these were people I didn't know so I did not

7 communicate with them.

8 Q. So was it really the three of you, Mr. Krasniqi, that had contact

9 with each other during 1997, Mr. Jashari, Mr. Bashota, and yourself? Is

10 that really what it came down to as far as you could, yourself,

11 communicate with other people?

12 A. I said that during this period I could not communicate regularly

13 with these people that went to Albania and Switzerland, I mean Azem Syla

14 and Hashim Thaqi.

15 Q. Yes. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but during 1997 you didn't

16 really have formal meetings of the General Staff, did you?

17 A. With the people that were inside Kosova, we used to contact with

18 them. But even the people who were outside Kosova contacted with the ones

19 inside Kosova. So those of us who were in Kosova communicated with each

20 other. We tried to communicate. And some other people in Kosova who knew

21 the people that were outside might have communicated with them. Those

22 were the possibilities of communication that we had at the time.

23 Q. They might have, Mr. Krasniqi, but do you know whether, for

24 example, there was any form of formal communication with the five

25 individuals whose identities you did not then know?

Page 5029

1 A. I did not have any contact with people I didn't know, because I

2 was one of the youngest or the newest members of the General Staff in

3 1997.

4 Q. Let's move, if we may, to the first half of 1998. Let's take it

5 to the middle of 1998. How many members of the General Staff were by then

6 inside Kosovo on a permanent basis?

7 A. Well, the number varied, about seven or eight. Then later the

8 General Staff expanded with a -- including the zone commanders. So the

9 number of the members of the General Staff increased.

10 Q. That was sometime later, was it. When did that occur?

11 A. Yes. This happened after November 1998.

12 Q. I'm not concerned with that period. Going back to June of 1998,

13 were there still people then who were members of the General Staff outside

14 Kosovo whose identities you did not know?

15 A. Yes, there were.

16 Q. And within Kosovo, is it right that the General Staff was broken

17 up; in other words, you were not -- those of you who were members of the

18 General Staff were not located in any one building. Is that correct?

19 A. Correct. Because we could not have one safe area where the

20 General Staff could stay for a longer time.

21 Q. Yes. But not only did members of the General Staff move around,

22 but they moved around separately from one another, did they not?

23 A. Yes, usually they did.

24 Q. Now, again, that takes us up to June and we know that on the 11th

25 of June you took over a formal spokesman role. I want to look, if I may,

Page 5030

1 with you for a moment at the position with these communiques up until that

2 time. Is it right, Mr. Krasniqi, that many of these communiques were

3 issued from the diaspora, and in particular from Switzerland during 1997?

4 A. Yes. The communiques were released sometimes from Switzerland,

5 sometimes from Albania as well. But I don't know for sure.

6 Q. And were they then being released by people whose identities you

7 did not know?

8 A. The communiques were issued by people I didn't know. I didn't

9 know their identity at the time when those communiques were written.

10 Q. And does that apply also --

11 MR. EMMERSON: Two more questions, if I may.

12 Q. -- to 1998, up till June?

13 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, at this point I'm going to state an

14 objection. I would ask counsel to be more particular or precise in what

15 communiques he's referring to. His earlier words were all-inclusive and I

16 ask that we have more precision in this matter.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it was entirely precise. "All of the

18 communiques" is what I put and that's what the witness answered.

19 Q. May I repeat the question, please, Mr. Krasniqi, was it also the

20 position up to the 11th of June that the communiques that were issued on

21 behalf of the KLA General Staff were being issued from the diaspora by

22 people who you did not know?

23 A. As I already said, I don't know who issued those communiques up

24 till that time because I didn't know those people. But I have to say that

25 the political statement that was issued in April 1998, I was one of the

Page 5031

1 authors of that statement. It was written by me and other members of the

2 staff.

3 Q. I'm going to come to that distinction between the political

4 statements and the communiques after the break. I've just got one final

5 question. Does it follow from the answer that you've just given us,

6 Mr. Krasniqi, that in respect of the communiques reporting military

7 action, you had no contact whatsoever with the authors of those

8 communiques before they were written?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Would that be a convenient moment?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is, Mr. Emmerson.

13 Mr. Kearney, you made an objection. It looked as if Mr. Emmerson

14 was ruling on it. I didn't do it yet. It would be next time better,

15 Mr. Emmerson, if you would like to respond, no problem. But what

16 happened, as a matter of fact, so I will rule on your objection. The

17 objection is denied because exactly the same happened here as what

18 happened yesterday when you said about a question, I think it covered the

19 whole of 1998. The Defence said: Could you please be more specific. I

20 then explained to the Defence that depending on the answer there might

21 need -- might be need to seek more specificity.

22 Exactly the same thing happened here, Mr. Emmerson was actually

23 putting a question covering all the communiques he had mentioned up till

24 that moment. You were seeking more specificity, whereas that might have

25 been the next question. So therefore, just as I indicated yesterday, that

Page 5032

1 the Defence should give it some time to first hear the answer and not to

2 seek specificity already when a question is phrased in very general terms.

3 I think that the same would be -- would apply for the Prosecution.

4 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you. That's a point well taken,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You see, Mr. Emmerson, even a ruling on such a matter

7 needs sometimes a bit of explanation.

8 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And you have done that already.

10 We will resume at quarter past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.

15 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, you were drawing a distinction before the break

16 between political statements and communiques. Can I put a suggestion to

17 you in that context, that overall there were three ways by which

18 individuals connected with General Staff communicated with the media and

19 the public. First of all, there were direct interviews conducted with you

20 after the 11th of June but not before; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. And secondly, there were a series of political statements

23 published in the name of the KLA General Staff, both before and after your

24 appointment as the spokesman on the 11th of June; is that correct?

25 A. Correct, but there were only few before 11th of June.

Page 5033

1 Q. But you mentioned, I think, one in April 1998. Is that right?

2 A. Yes, correct.

3 Q. And you were closely involved, I think, in the drafting of those

4 political statements; is that correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And then third -- in the third category are what has been

7 described here as communiques which were, I think, issued not by the

8 political wing in which you were involved, but by members of what were

9 described as the operational wing. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes. It is mainly correct.

11 Q. And you've told us, I think, that certainly up to the time of your

12 appointment you had no contact with the people drafting those communiques

13 before they were drafted and sent out. Can I ask you this: After your

14 appointment on the 11th of June, was that still the position? Did those

15 people still send out communiques -- these communiques recording military

16 activity without your direct involvement; in other words, with no contact

17 with you about the content of the communique after the 11th of June?

18 A. After the 11th of June, in the majority of cases, we were aware of

19 the text of the communiques.

20 Q. When you say "we," I'm asking, if I may, specifically about you.

21 Were you aware --

22 A. Myself and other members of the staff responsible for

23 information --

24 Q. Very well --

25 A. -- for communication with the public.

Page 5034

1 Q. Very well. The 11th of June becomes the distinction date as far

2 as you are concerned; is that correct?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. Even after that, Mr. Krasniqi, did you personally author any of

5 the communiques? Did you actually write the words that appeared in the

6 communiques yourself?

7 A. Yes. These communiques, I was the author of them during the time

8 when the offensives were at their highest peak and when there were

9 difficulties for us as members of the General Staff to assemble. There

10 are many occasions, I don't remember every one of them, but I, on those

11 occasions, drafted the communiques on the basis of the information I

12 received from the ground.

13 Q. That was the next question I was going to come to. You've given

14 us some information that the content of the communiques came from

15 information that was derived from the ground. And I think in your

16 testimony in Limaj you used the expression "grass roots". First of all,

17 specifically as regards the Dukagjini area, can I suggest to you that you,

18 apart from the incident where you described meeting Mr. Haradinaj, which

19 I'll come back to, you did not have telephone communication with him

20 before the autumn of 1998 whilst you were in Kosovo. Is that a suggestion

21 with which you would agree?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in terms of the information that was provided to you after the

24 11th of June and the information that was put into the communiques, I

25 think you have said on a number of occasions, both in your testimony in

Page 5035

1 this court and in your testimony in the Limaj case, that really the

2 primary purpose of those communiques issued after the 11th of June, as

3 well as those issued before, the primary purpose was what you have

4 described as propaganda. Is that correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And just so that we're clear, part of the purpose -- part of the

7 propaganda purpose was to raise morale of the civilian population; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. Part was to encourage recruitment into the ranks of the KLA; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. And as a result, I think you've confirmed already, the methodology

14 was to talk up military successes and talk down military failures; is that

15 correct?

16 A. That's correct. I can say that there existed two KLAs, one on

17 paper and one on the ground. That's why I'm saying it's correct.

18 Q. And on a number of occasions in your testimony in Limaj, you

19 observed to the Judges there that you were unhappy about the idea of these

20 communiques being taken as evidence of the facts contained within them.

21 Is that because you are concerned that they present a misleading picture?

22 A. At that time and even nowadays, I continue to think that in

23 absence of facts the Court is taking into consideration propaganda

24 material. In my opinion, this material should not be used in delivering

25 justice.

Page 5036

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krasniqi, to what extent material that is

2 produced for purposes of propaganda should be taken into consideration in

3 whatever determination this Court or any Court would have to make is up to

4 the Court. And I would like you to refrain from commenting on what we

5 should and we should not use. Just to avoid whatever misunderstanding

6 there may be, the Chamber, even if it considers material that was produced

7 for propaganda reasons, using such material does not mean that the Chamber

8 would adopt whatever has been put to the public as propaganda. Of course

9 the Chamber, as you may have noticed earlier today, would carefully try to

10 distinguish between what are facts, because even in propaganda sometimes

11 facts are reflected, and what could not be considered to be facts. So I

12 would invite you to refrain from giving us guidance as how and what to use

13 in order to deliver justice because the suggestion is clearly there that

14 if we would use any of these communiques that we would not deliver

15 justice, and that is a comment which is not appropriate for a witness to

16 make.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


19 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I just want to put to you a specific from the

20 testimony that you gave in Limaj in this regard from page 3421, line 11.

21 You said this in answer to a question from counsel. You said: "I agree

22 that we had to speak about successes even when there wasn't any successes

23 to speak about."

24 Is that something which happened in the communiques that you

25 issued?

Page 5037

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And was that same pattern reflected in the interviews that you

3 gave, Mr. Krasniqi, the interviews you gave to the media?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I wonder if you could have a look at the document that I handed to

6 you or had handed to you at the beginning of my cross-examination, which

7 is a series of notes of an interview conducted with you by the Office of

8 the Prosecution in May 2004. Now, first of all, just to be clear as to

9 what this document is, I'm going to put certain propositions to you,

10 Mr. Krasniqi, perhaps you would let me run right through them and then

11 either confirm or contradict what I put to you.

12 I think you were summoned by the Office of the Prosecution and

13 required to attend for an interview that took place on the 4th of May,

14 2004. The interview was tape recorded, but it was later discovered that

15 due to a technical fault the tape was not capable of being listened to.

16 And as a result, these notes were produced from contemporaneous notes

17 taken during the investigation. They were then translated into Albanian

18 and you were given a copy to approve, and you initialled an Albanian copy

19 to indicate the correctness of the contents of those notes.

20 Is that right?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I just want to look at some of the passages in

23 these notes, if I may. Could you turn to paragraphs 19 and 20. If I can

24 just introduce those paragraphs to you, Mr. Krasniqi, to orientate you in

25 the interview without taking time on the exhibit. You were being

Page 5038

1 questioned there about an interview that you gave to Der Spiegel magazine

2 on the 6th of July, 1998, in which you had claimed that the KLA was in

3 possession of heavy weaponry and poised to move in and take control of

4 Pristina.

5 Now, first of all, Mr. Krasniqi, can you confirm, please, that

6 that was not, in fact, the position on the 6th of July, 1998; the KLA was

7 not, in fact, in a position in which it was seriously poised to take

8 control of Pristina, was it?

9 A. Yes, it wasn't.

10 Q. It wasn't. You agree with the suggestion that I'm putting to you?

11 A. I agree.

12 Q. Thank you. And then you're recorded as having said this in

13 relation to that interview in the notes of the interview with the

14 Prosecution.

15 "When questioned regarding the statements concerning heavy or

16 advanced weaponry, Mr. Krasniqi indicated that he made the statements but

17 that these statements were made as part of a propaganda campaign or, in

18 his words, as a 'Special war' or 'Psychological war'."

19 It then goes on at paragraph 20: "The KLA General Staff carried

20 out this propaganda campaign to present the KLA as more organised than it

21 might have been and in this way gain credibility."

22 Pausing there for a moment. Is that an accurate reflection of the

23 approach you took to the Der Spiegel article or interview?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is it an accurate reflection of the approach you took to all

Page 5039

1 interviews with the media, Mr. Krasniqi?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You can put those notes to one side for the moment; I'll come back

4 to them in a little while.

5 Earlier this afternoon, Mr. Kearney concluded his

6 cross-examination by asking you about a passage in a lengthy interview

7 that was published in Koha Ditore on the 11th and 12th of July. He took

8 you, I think, to the second half of that two-day article which was annex

9 18 to your witness statement. You were asked some questions in the Limaj

10 trial about the first half of that interview published on the 11th of

11 July, 1998, which is annex 17 to your witness statement, and commenting on

12 that interview at transcript page 3377 you said this, and I quote: "By

13 means of this material we sought to convey the idea even though sometimes

14 we exaggerated the reality, but the purpose was to win over the support of

15 the citizens of Kosovo, to win over the support of the entire Albanian

16 public, as well as that of the international public. So as I said, this

17 is a material which aimed at presenting the level of organisation of the

18 KLA at a higher level which was not the case in reality."

19 And I'm asking you, please, first of all to confirm that that was

20 the approach you took to the whole of that interview with Koha Ditore,

21 published across two days on the 11th and 12th of July?

22 A. Yes. This was my stance and the stance of the General Staff at

23 that time.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, what I want to do now is to move on to ask you

25 some questions which might give us some assistance at distinguishing

Page 5040

1 between, first of all, fact and propaganda, and then where fact is related

2 in some of these documents, the reliability of the information on which it

3 is based. And the extent to which you may or may not be able to help us

4 with that.

5 Could I ask you, please, to look at -- just at two short examples.

6 Annex 2 in the little blue file which is a newspaper report from

7 Koha Ditore for the 8th of August, 1997, of a statement issued in the name

8 of the KLA. And the passage I want you to look at in the -- have you

9 got -- you've got the Albanian document there. If you could look in the

10 Albanian, five lines down from the main text you will find the letters UCK

11 in square brackets. Do you see that? Five lines down in the main text do

12 you see the letters UCK in square brackets?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. I'll just read the English translation.

15 "'The Kosovo Liberation Army' [UCK] claims responsibility for

16 recent armed incidents in Kosovo, in which two Serbian policemen and two

17 Albanian civilians were injured."

18 That, I think you can confirm, is a comment by the newspaper

19 rather than a quotation from the communique, that sentence. Do you agree?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There is then a quotation from the communique itself.

22 "This communique states: 'By a decision of the UCK Central Staff

23 made on 3 and 4 August, our guerilla units carried out three armed

24 operations against the occupiers and their collaborators.'"

25 Just pause there, please. Can I ask you now: Do you have any

Page 5041

1 personal knowledge of the two Serbian policemen who were injured or that

2 are referred to as having been injured? Do you know who they were or

3 where they were injured?

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Before the witness answers this question --


6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- Mr. Emmerson, may I ask you, are we in August

7 1997?




11 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, do you now know who those two Serbian policemen were

12 or where they were injured?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Or the two Albanian civilians that were injured, do you know who

15 they were or where and in what circumstances they were injured?

16 A. No, I have no knowledge about this, but as I said earlier some of

17 the information we got was from the media itself.

18 Q. I understand. And please, don't think I'm criticising you in any

19 way. It's just to get some sense of what you can really help the

20 Trial Chamber with in terms of content. And where the communique is

21 quoted as referring to three armed operations that were authorised on the

22 3rd and 4th of August, do you know what those three armed operations were?

23 Can you tell us now what those three armed operations were from your own

24 knowledge?

25 A. At that time, I did not have any knowledge about these operations.

Page 5042

1 I may know of them today, but not at that time.

2 Q. Very well. Could you look, please, at annex 9 which is a little

3 later in time. This is a report in Pristina Bujku on the 11th of March,

4 1998, which reports a further communique and quotes it. Do you have that?

5 Just give me one moment.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I'm so sorry, just one moment, if I may. Can you help us with

8 this, Mr. Krasniqi. Can you see a headline in the Albanian news item that

9 reads or makes reference to the UCK staff issuing a communique on military

10 engagements? Is it the bottom right-hand box, is it, in the newspaper

11 article?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you look, please, there is a quotation there

14 looking at the bottom of the first column. Can I read to you the English

15 translation. It's the third paragraph in inverted commas in the English

16 translation and I believe it is the last paragraph in the first column,

17 but correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sorry, I do apologise, it's not. It's

18 the first full paragraph in the second column, Mr. Krasniqi, that's where

19 I need to direct your attention to. It reads:

20 "'The UCK's military formations also engaged occupation forces in

21 the Llap region in the area between Decan, Gjakove, and Kline, and between

22 Malisheve and Rahovec crossing from the Lumihat region. There were also

23 engagements on a line stretching from Decan to Peje [Pec].'"

24 Is that what the text says in the Albanian version?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5043

1 Q. And again the --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the inverted commas are difficult for

3 me to find in the original, whereas --


5 JUDGE ORIE: -- Some moments -- for example, in the middle of the

6 first column it's clear that it starts there with inverted commas not

7 knowing exactly where it stops, but I have some difficulties in

8 identifying inverted commas in the part you just read.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm afraid the quality of the copy is --

10 certainly my copy is very poor. It has a lot of black markings that are

11 rather difficult to see.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course I enlarged it on my screen.

13 MR. EMMERSON: I think, yes, it does appear as those the inverted

14 commas begin the quotation and are not repeated on each subparagraph in

15 the original in the way that they are in the translation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Let me just compare with the translation

17 to see.

18 Yes, well, we need to take a closer look but especially the

19 inverted commas before "The UCK's military also engaged... " There I have

20 difficulties in identifying.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I agree.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That being on the record.

23 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, all I want to establish from you is whether you're

25 now able to give us the specifics of some of these reported engagements,

Page 5044

1 and in particular in the passage I directed your attention to, there is a

2 reference to the UCK military formations engaging occupation forces

3 between Decan, Gjakove, and Kline, and also engagements on a line

4 stretching from Decan to Peje. First of all, do you now know, that's the

5 first part of my question, do you now know exactly where or when those

6 specific engagements occurred, the numbers of forces involved, and the

7 nature of the engagements? Is that something you are able to tell us here

8 today, the specifics, or not?

9 A. No, I can't because at this time, before the 11th of March, on the

10 8th, 9th, and the 10th of March, the funeral of the people killed in

11 Prekaze was organised. So we were engaged in Drenica mainly, and I don't

12 know about developments outside the Drenica area.

13 Q. Yes. But again, with information percolating up from the ground,

14 I mean, do you accept that there is a risk of local fighters exaggerating

15 the successes of the KLA and downplaying its losses in communicating

16 information to the General Staff as well as a risk of the General Staff

17 distorting the information in the communiques being published?

18 A. Yes. There were cases, for example, when an attack was launched

19 on the enemy forces from a distance and the communique spoke about a

20 success that, in fact, was not such. The event might have happened,

21 the -- the event occurred, but we exaggerated it a bit.

22 Q. But would you also agree, Mr. Krasniqi, that unless we know who it

23 was that provided the information to the General Staff in the first place,

24 there's a risk that even the information that the General Staff received

25 involved inaccuracies or distortions?

Page 5045

1 A. There could have been distortions, but in addition to the

2 communiques also the media were given information about the same events.

3 Q. I understand that. But it was a feature, wasn't it, of the media

4 coverage of Kosovo that different newspapers would distort the facts of

5 particular issues, depending upon whether they were pro-Serb or

6 pro-Albanian as well. It was --

7 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour.


9 MR. KEARNEY: I'm sorry, this calls for speculation on behalf of

10 this witness and it's compound.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson, the objection is sustained. Would

12 you please try to find a factual basis for some of the matters you put to

13 the witness.

14 MR. EMMERSON: May I formulate a question and see if there's an

15 objection to it?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may do so.


18 Q. Before you answer this question, take a pause, Mr. Krasniqi. Did

19 you come across occasions during your time in Kosovo in 1998 where the

20 same incident would be reported in pro-Serbian newspapers in a manner

21 completely different to the way in which that same incident was reported

22 in pro-Albanian newspapers?

23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, again, I don't think there is a person

24 in the courtroom who doesn't have some experience in this regard, but

25 there is no relevance unless the witness is talking about a specific media

Page 5046

1 report, about a specific incident.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's -- first, there's no reason to ask for

3 any specifics if the witness never saw such a thing. So the witness --

4 would you please answer the question, that is whether you came across in

5 Kosovo in 1998 where the same incident would be reported in pro-Serbian

6 newspaper in a manner completely different to the way in which that same

7 incident was reported in pro-Albanian newspapers.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to clarify here that there

9 were no pro-Serb newspapers in Kosova at the time, and the Albanian

10 newspapers were limited. But however, there were media, Serb media, that

11 were followed in Kosovo and there were discrepancies between the Serb

12 media and the Albanian media very often.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


15 Q. I want to ask you now, if I may, some questions about the

16 emergence of the organisation of the KLA in the period between the

17 Likoshan and Prekaze incident, that is to say, the early part of March,

18 and the end of August. That's the period I want you to focus on, please,

19 from early to mid-March at one end and the end of August to another -- at

20 the other. You used in your testimony in Limaj on a number of occasions,

21 you used the word "horizontal" to describe the way in which the

22 organisation of the KLA began to emerge during that period. And it's that

23 concept of horizontal development that I want to explore with you. After

24 those attacks in the end of February and the beginning of March, is it

25 right that in many parts of Kosovo, but particularly in Drenica and

Page 5047

1 Dukagjin, villages began to start trying to organise themselves into

2 village defence units. Is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's what happened and that's what I said in the Limaj

4 case. I also mentioned something about this today.

5 Q. And --

6 A. And this is something that happened.

7 Q. And during that period, initially arms were scarce and people were

8 using hunting rifles and any type of weaponry they could get their hands

9 on. Is that generally the picture?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. They would organise rotas amongst themselves to keep watch; is

12 that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And dig trenches and fortifications around their villages?

15 A. That happened as well, yes.

16 Q. And they would elect their own village commanders; is that right?

17 A. In the majority of the cases, yes.

18 Q. And so that we're clear, none of this was centrally organised, was

19 it? These villages were organising themselves spontaneously by and large,

20 that was the pattern. Would you agree?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But the General Staff, and perhaps local commanders, would try to

23 organise them in one form or another to bring them into, over time and to

24 a greater extent over that period, to bring them into the KLA. Is that

25 right?

Page 5048

1 A. Yes. That's what we were engaged in doing during the summer of

2 1998.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I would like to seek a clarification of

4 one of the previous answers of the witness.

5 Mr. Krasniqi, Mr. Emmerson asked you: "They would elect their own

6 village commanders; is that right?"

7 And then you said: "In the majority of the cases, yes."

8 Could you tell us what happened in the minority of the cases,

9 which you apparently excluded from your answer.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the cases where the KLA was

11 better organised in a certain village or a certain area, the commander was

12 not elected by the villagers. But in many cases, during the summer of

13 1998 this is what happened, that the villagers organised their own defence

14 and had their own commander. This is what happened mainly in the villages

15 where the horizontal organisation took place and there was no connection

16 vertically.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But where you said that where the KLA was

18 better organised in a certain village or a certain area, that the

19 commanders -- commander was not elected by the villagers. How was he

20 appointed? How did he get his position as a commander? Was he appointed

21 by higher level of KLA or ...?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, Drenica was better

23 organised and usually the appointment of commanders in these villages was

24 done through a proposal by the General Staff.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Through the proposal

Page 5049

1 of the zone and then received the approval of the General Staff.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that answer.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


5 Q. Can I then go on to ask you some specific questions about Dukagjin

6 and put some propositions to you. If you don't know the answers, please

7 say so. But first of all, Mr. Krasniqi, in the witness statement you've

8 made in this case at paragraph 7, there is a sentence which reads: "The

9 subzones, including Drenica and Dukagjin, existed on paper as early as

10 1995."

11 Now, can I understand, please, what did you mean by that

12 expression "existed on paper as early as 1995"?

13 A. I meant that they existed on paper, but in reality the situation

14 on the ground was completely different. I also said it earlier that there

15 was a period when we had two KLAs: One on paper, our wishful thinking,

16 what we wanted the KLA to be; and the KLA that existed on the ground. So

17 there was a big difference between the two.

18 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, we've heard evidence of witnesses in this case and

19 indeed seen documents that record the emergence of organisation in the

20 Dukagjin region. And I just want to put some propositions to you. I'm

21 going to suggest to you, first of all, that within Dukagjin, the village

22 defence organisation that you've described as characteristic were first

23 brought together in a meeting on the 26th of May, 1998, when four small

24 subzones, as they were called, were created in the villages along the Peje

25 to Decan and Gjakove road; in other words, the villages to the east side

Page 5050

1 of that road, grouping together into four relatively small subzones.

2 Now, were you aware that, first of all, that there was a meeting

3 at the end of May in which some attempt was made for the first time to

4 coordinate village defences in the Dukagjin region?

5 A. I can't remember this occasion in May, but later on I remember

6 that the villagers in the Dukagjin area had their meetings and appointed

7 their commanders or elected their commanders.

8 Q. Yes. Well, this is what I was going to come to. About a month

9 later on the 23rd of June, I suggest the Dukagjini Plain Operational Zone

10 was established at a meeting attended by Rexhep Selimi, and at which

11 Ramush Haradinaj was elected as zone commander. Does that accord with

12 your recollection?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And can I suggest to you that even after that there were areas

15 within the broad Dukagjini Plain that were not properly incorporated into

16 any organised structure and that, for example, Bislim Zyrapi was

17 dispatched in mid-July to seek to improve coordination in the Dukagjini

18 region?

19 A. Yes. Bislim Zyrapi was at the time in the Dukagjin area.

20 Q. And do you agree that it was known that there were problems of

21 coordination in that area?

22 A. Yes. There were problems at the time between the zone commander

23 that had been appointed, Ramush Haradinaj, and the commander that was

24 elected later on by the villager who was Tahir Zemaj.

25 Q. I think that's an incident or a series of incidents that occurred

Page 5051

1 in July. Generally speaking, were there problems of communication, for

2 example, with the area to the west of the main road close to the border?

3 A. Yes, there were.

4 Q. Can I ask you, please, to look at those interview notes again for

5 a moment, and could you turn to paragraphs 82 to 84 and just read them

6 over to yourself, please. Yes?

7 Can I ask you, please, first of all, is it correct, then, that the

8 first time you met Mr. Haradinaj was at the end of June/beginning of July;

9 that was the first occasion you'd met?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And was that the first occasion on which you became aware that he

12 had any commanding role in the Dukagjini area?

13 A. No, I knew this from before, before I went.

14 Q. I see. Would it coincide with his appointment on the 23rd of

15 June, approximately?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to look briefly at paragraph 81 in

18 those notes --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --

20 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: What would coincide exactly with the appointment?

22 MR. EMMERSON: This witness's knowledge of Mr. Haradinaj having a

23 commanding role was the --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just check, one second.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I think it starts at line 19, Your Honour.

Page 5052

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry, while Presiding Judge is checking it, do we

2 have a translation in the electronic system of this document?


4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: An English translation?

5 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, of the interview?


7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, an electronic copy and I think also a hard --

8 JUDGE ORIE: But it has not --

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I did not get --

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- been assigned a number since you are not going to

11 tender it.


13 JUDGE ORIE: And we usually consult those documents that are

14 tendered and marked for identification.


16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since the question is there, if there's -- we

18 don't have a hard copy, we could just try to consult that, but I don't

19 know whether we have access to the lists of uploaded documents which are

20 not yet --

21 MR. EMMERSON: I did hand in to Your Honours a hard copy --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Of the English.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, the English, yes, of course.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And Judge Hoepfel is asking for the original.

25 MR. EMMERSON: And the original is English, of course.

Page 5053

1 JUDGE ORIE: The original is English.


3 JUDGE ORIE: But the translation which the witness has in front of

4 him which I do understand is a translation in his own language.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Which he --


8 JUDGE ORIE: -- has signed at some stage --

9 MR. EMMERSON: He has at some stage signed the Albanian

10 translation, and not the one -- there's no signature on the document he

11 has but he has testified in the past he has.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think Judge Hoepfel is trying to have access to

13 that.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I will ensure that a copy is available

15 certainly after the next break, and if those following the transcript in

16 the Defence room can pick this point up, it may well be in sooner than

17 that.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And let's go back to --

20 MR. EMMERSON: Paragraph 81 --

21 JUDGE ORIE: No --

22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- to where I ...

24 Yes. Just to be sure, since when, Mr. Krasniqi, were you aware of

25 or when had you become aware that Mr. Haradinaj had any commanding role in

Page 5054

1 the Dukagjini area?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must have been in July.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It must have been in

4 June.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the exact date, but

6 it must have been late June.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to go -- I have to concentrate. One

9 second, please.

10 You said -- you confirmed when asked by Mr. Emmerson that it was

11 at the end of June/beginning of July that you -- that was the first

12 occasion you had met with Mr. Haradinaj. And then you were asked: "And

13 was that the first occasion on which you became aware that he had any

14 commanding role in the Dukagjini area?"

15 And you said: "No. I knew this from before, before I went."

16 How much time before you went you became aware of that?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me now to

18 pinpoint the time, but when I set off to go to the Dukagjin area, to

19 Jabllanice, I thought that I was going to meet Ramush Haradinaj, who was

20 the zone commander.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's not -- that's not a real answer to

22 my question. When you went, it's clear that you -- or would you say that

23 you -- while going there, you had become aware of his commanding role. Is

24 that ...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that he was a fighter and

Page 5055

1 member of the KLA. I knew this from before, but after I became

2 spokesperson of the KLA I went to the Dukagjin area and I knew at the time

3 that the zone commander was Ramush Haradinaj, because he had been

4 appointed by the General Staff. So I knew that he was the zone commander.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you said: "Well, that he was a fighter and

6 a member of the KLA," you knew that from before. Was he like any other

7 KLA fighter or any other KLA member or did, in your perception from these

8 earlier days, did he have any -- was he of any prominence as a fighter or

9 a KLA member or was he, from what you learned, only an ordinary KLA member

10 or ordinary fighter? Do you understand my question?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On the 24th of March there was

12 a battle in the village of Gllogjan between the members of the KLA and the

13 Serbian police, and the name I heard after the event of the 24th of March.

14 But I contacted him in June because after these things and events

15 happened, he was appointed commander. Whether it was the 23rd or the 24th

16 of June, I can't tell you, but I know that it was late June 1998.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, but when you said: "The

18 name I heard after the event of the 24th of March," was that just a name

19 of a fighter or a KLA member or did you hear this name in relation to a

20 prominent member or a leading member? I mean, I'm just trying to find out

21 whether before Mr. Haradinaj was appointed and you visited him, whether

22 you learned, when you learned his name, whether that was related to any

23 prominent position he may have had as a fighter or as a KLA member.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning when the fighting

25 occurred, especially in early June, as far as the Dukagjini Zone was

Page 5056

1 concerned, our first man as member of the General Staff was Lahi Brahimaj.

2 So I learned of Ramush Haradinaj as a name through Lahi Brahimaj. But my

3 first contact with him was end of June/early July, as I've pointed out

4 earlier.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


7 Q. Could you look at paragraph 81 of your interview notes there,

8 please. First sentence in that paragraph, I'm going to read the English

9 sentence into the record quotation.

10 "When asked if the commander of an operational zone would know

11 what was happening in his area of responsibility, Mr. Krasniqi stated that

12 they did, in fact, try to know but this at times proved difficult."

13 Was that a true statement that you made in that interview?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you turn to paragraph 75, please.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]


18 Q. At paragraph 75 in the English reads: "Mr. Krasniqi stated that

19 around the 11th of June, 1998, the KLA was functioning mainly in units

20 with limited communication between them, this being a security measure

21 where the units would act as independent cells."

22 First of all, was that a true statement also, Mr. Krasniqi, of the

23 situation as you understood it to be when you took over as spokesman?

24 A. Yes, this is how it was.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you. I wonder if you can clarify just one matter of

Page 5057

1 potential confusion that arises in some of these communiques. We see, in

2 some of the early communiques, references to operational zones 1 and 5,

3 and that was a reference that can be found, for the record, in annex 5.

4 During your testimony in Limaj, you identified those two zones I think as

5 Llap and Drenica. Is that correct?

6 A. Drenica was zone number 1, while number 5 was Llap.

7 Q. As of December 1997 when these zones existed essentially on paper;

8 is that correct?

9 A. No. I think I've explained this earlier. Up until November 1998,

10 Drenica, Llap, Dukagjin were qualified as subzones. Kosova was considered

11 as one zone and there were other zones outside Kosova. By the end of

12 1998, the General Staff changed its policy and its main operational zone

13 was Kosova with its seven operational zones. So from this point on the

14 subzones are called zones.

15 Q. Could you just look at annex 5 for a moment, please, and you will

16 find a passage that you need to look at. In the box on the right-hand

17 side of the article in annex 5, the vertical box on the right-hand side in

18 the second paragraph, and we have it in the second paragraph as well

19 beginning: "On the evening ..."

20 Now, there are references in those lines to operational zone 5 and

21 operational zone 1. Those areas, I think, you gave evidence in Limaj were

22 Llap and Drenica; correct?

23 A. No. During this period, maybe there was a confusion between

24 subzones and zones, but during this period of time the entire territory of

25 Kosova was considered as one zone. I'm speaking about the time when this

Page 5058

1 communique was issued.

2 Q. So am I, Mr. Krasniqi. I don't want to take a great deal of time

3 over this, but you gave evidence about this in the Limaj case, and it's

4 transcript 3323, about this very communique and said that the reference

5 there to operational zone number 5 was a reference to Llap and the

6 reference to operational zone number 1 was a reference to Drenica. And I

7 think if you look at the context, that must be right, mustn't it?

8 A. As I said earlier.

9 Q. Yes. Does it appear then that the author of this communique is a

10 bit confused as between subzones --

11 MR. KEARNEY: I'm sorry, Mr. Emmerson, to interrupt. I'm not

12 clear, this last answer of the witness: "As I said earlier," I'm not sure

13 what that answer refers to. If we could seek some clarification at this

14 time.


16 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, I understand what your evidence is about the

17 organisation of zones, but with this passage here in this communique, when

18 asked about it in Limaj, you agreed that it was a reference to Llap and

19 Drenica. Now, just so that we're clear, in the context of that report of

20 that communique, does it appear that it is a reference to Llap and

21 Drenica?

22 A. Well, in that particular time, no, but if you look it from a later

23 perspective, yes.

24 Q. Yes. All I'm trying to ascertain is it appears that the author of

25 this communique is referring to those areas as operational zones rather

Page 5059

1 than subzones, does it not?

2 A. This could be the case.

3 Q. I want to move on now to another topic, if I may --

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at the clock, Mr. Emmerson --


6 JUDGE ORIE: -- I would suggest that we have a break now.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. I -- I think I've probably got no more

8 than another 15 minutes or so.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but nevertheless that would take us too far.

10 MR. EMMERSON: No. I'm just giving Your Honour an indication.

11 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that concluding your

12 cross-examination would take you 15 minutes?

13 MR. EMMERSON: 15 minutes or so.

14 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes or so. Could the other Defence counsel

15 give me an indication on how much time they would need.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Harvey will be going after Mr. Emmerson.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

18 MR. HARVEY: I will be taking about 20 minutes, I think, Your

19 Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you stand the last in the row.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think I will be taking the balance of the time,

22 however much time that leaves me.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That would then -- that's clear. We will have a

24 break, Mr. Krasniqi, and we'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

Page 5060

1 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Krasniqi, could you turn again to those interview notes and

5 familiarise yourself with paragraphs 22 and 23, please, of your interview

6 notes. And I want to ask you some questions now on the subject of

7 collaborators. First of all, once you've found the relevant paragraphs,

8 I'll just read into the record the English translation, and this is again

9 you commenting on the article carrying an interview in Der Spiegel from

10 the 6th of July. Paragraph 22 reads:

11 "Mr. Krasniqi was asked to explain the references made to

12 collaborators in this article to which he responded that he made the

13 comments but that they were part of the referred 'Psychological warfare'

14 aimed at preventing civilians from serving the Serbian regime."

15 Paragraph 23: "Mr. Krasniqi agreed that this term collaborator

16 and these type of references stating retaliation against them appeared as

17 a repetitive theme in many of the KLA communiques issued. However, he

18 said that they should be interpreted in the context in which they were

19 published as part of the referred 'propaganda campaign'."

20 Pausing there, please, and allowing the translation to catch up.

21 Mr. Krasniqi, was that a truthful account that you gave to the Office of

22 the Prosecutor of the references that you made in your interviews?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you gave evidence in the Limaj trial, Mr. Krasniqi, you

25 described your understanding of the word or the concept of a collaborator

Page 5061

1 as a person who was actively recruited to work for the Serb security

2 services or a little later on, recruited within the ranks of the Serb

3 forces, military, and police forces. Was that your understanding of the

4 term "collaborator," Mr. Krasniqi, when you used it?

5 A. Yes, although this term is a foreign term originating from Norway

6 or France used there after the Second World War. These were people who in

7 the case of Kosova served the apparatus of the Milosevic regime.

8 Q. But just to be clear, when you used the expression "collaborator,"

9 are you referring to somebody who has been recruited into the Serb

10 security services or the police or the military?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you turn, please, to annex number 7 in the blue file --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'd like to make sure that I fully

14 understand the last answer of the witness. If you say, "someone who has

15 been recruited into the Serb security services or the police or the

16 military," would that in your understanding exclude someone who was not

17 recruited but who would render services to the Serb security services or

18 the Serb police or the Serb military, so would assist them in performing

19 their task without being recruited. Would you still call them or not call

20 them collaborators?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: They would not be collaborators?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Only those that were part of

24 the repressive apparatus of the Serbian police and military.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to give you an example. If someone,

Page 5062

1 for example, would provide information, although not being recruited, to

2 the Serb military forces about KLA positions, would you consider such a

3 person to be a collaborator?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These persons that were not

5 recruited, there was no way that we could know that they were

6 collaborators. We referred to those who were recruited, who were serving

7 in this apparatus and those for whom we had information. Maybe there were

8 others for whom we did not have information that they were in the service

9 of this apparatus.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If I would tell you that this Chamber has received

11 testimony in which it is said that there were suspicions about certain

12 persons providing information to the Serbs, so therefore that such

13 suspicions could even exist where there's no evidence or at least it is

14 not said that these persons were recruited but just gave their assistance,

15 would you still say that you could not know of such persons because they

16 had not been recruited?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

19 MR. EMMERSON: May I make it clear. My questioning was directed

20 to this witness's use of that term and therefore to the understanding that

21 we should attach to it when he uses it. May I just make that

22 clarification clear.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. At the same time --

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes --

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- one of the last answers the witness gave was about

Page 5063

1 logic --

2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I understand.

3 JUDGE ORIE: What one could know and what one could not know. And

4 that's, of course --

5 MR. EMMERSON: I understand entirely. I wasn't querying the

6 question at all.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


9 Q. Could we look at tab 7, please, as an example of the use of the

10 term "collaborator," although not, I think, by you. This is a

11 communique -- a report, I'm sorry, in Pristina Bujku on the 28th of

12 February, 1998. Now, Mr. Krasniqi, you will find the relevant passage

13 that I need to ask you about just over halfway down page 1 in the

14 Albanian, and it begins: "On the 23rd of January, 1998 ..."

15 MR. EMMERSON: And we have it roughly, Your Honours, opposite the

16 hole-punch, I think, slightly above it.

17 Q. And there's a passage there that reads and I will quote it for the

18 record: "On the 23rd of January, 1998, our units carried out an attack on

19 the criminal Desimir Vasic, a close collaborator of Arkan."

20 Now, pausing there for a moment. Arkan, I think is a name we're

21 all familiar with, and was the leader of a Serbian paramilitary

22 organisation called the Tigers; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. These were irregular forces responsible for some of the worst

25 violence in Croatia and in Bosnia, and in Kosovo; is that your

Page 5064

1 understanding?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did they use and incorporate individuals, whether Serbian or

4 any other ethnicity, inside Kosovo, did they absorb, for example, Kosovo

5 Serbs into their ranks, paramilitary groups like that, as far as you

6 understood the position?

7 A. Most probably they were included in those forces, but I don't know

8 any others except for this name here. Personally, I didn't know any

9 person in concrete terms.

10 Q. But do you know anything about Desimir Vasic? Do you know who he

11 was?

12 A. No.

13 Q. But in general terms if a Kosovo Serb was recruited into one of

14 the paramilitary groups, you would describe that as an individual who had

15 been recruited into the Serbian military forces and as a collaborator,

16 wouldn't you?

17 A. No. This one couldn't have been a collaborator. He was a member.

18 He was a Serb. We referred with the term "collaborator" to the Albanians

19 who served -- who rendered services to the repressive Serbian regime.

20 Q. Well, then the word "collaborator" seems to have been used here --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

22 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Emmerson, if you would allow me to make one

24 observation about the word "collaborator." Looking at different languages

25 in which it is used, to the extent I have knowledge of those languages, it

Page 5065

1 could have - but please correct me when you have a different view -

2 "collaborer" in French could be working together, which is the literal

3 meaning of the word, and it has also a defamatory meaning, that is,

4 working together with the enemy. I am not quite sure to what extent the

5 translation -- the word used here, "collaborator," reflects the -- a more

6 neutral original word or the defamatory original. I'm -- perhaps if --

7 MR. EMMERSON: May I ask the witness in relation to the Albanian,

8 whether the word used is the same as would be used for someone who had --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And especially the same as he used in the other

10 documents -- that was used in the other documents.


12 Q. Can you look, Mr. Krasniqi, at the Albanian sentence, can you find

13 the word there that describes the relationship between Desimir Vasic and

14 Arkan. How is that relationship described in the Albanian, please? Could

15 you read that for us and we'll have it translated. Perhaps just read the

16 line beginning: "On the 23rd of January ..." down to "Arkan," for us and

17 the translators will pay particular attention to the word we're interested

18 in. Would you read it out for us.

19 A. "On the 23rd of January, 1998, our units launched an attack

20 against criminal Desimir Vasic, a close collaborator of Arkan." Here it

21 is not used in the sense of a collaborator, but more in the sense of an

22 associate, a member of the Arkan's forces. So here it does not have the

23 meaning of the word "collaborator." Usually we use this term when a

24 person helps the enemy who is of another nationality or religion. As I

25 said, this term originated from Norway and France and -- after the Second

Page 5066

1 World War, and was later used in other parts of Europe.

2 Q. Thank you. Could you turn, please, in this context to the

3 interview notes again and to paragraph 69 so that we have a sense as to

4 how you understood the term, Mr. Krasniqi. I'm going to read into the

5 record the English translation of paragraph 69. Perhaps you will follow

6 it in the Albanian.

7 "Mr. Krasniqi stated that the General Staff stressed frequently

8 that the KLA must obey and respect the international norms and not target

9 civilians. He additionally stressed that to his knowledge no

10 collaborators were arrested and executed. Some may have been killed, but

11 that would have happened during battle at the front line, never after

12 detention."

13 Is that an accurate record of what you told the Prosecution,

14 Mr. Krasniqi?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is it an accurate record of your understanding of the

17 position?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just for your information, the word

20 used in the original, annex 7, and in this paragraph 69 seems to be the

21 same.


23 JUDGE ORIE: To the extent I can decipher that.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.

25 Q. And two final topics, if I may. I want to ask you just about one

Page 5067

1 aspect of your testimony in Limaj in relation to civilians, generally, as

2 military targets. This is Limaj transcript 3387, line 24, concerning the

3 position of Serb civilians. And you said this: "Because as KLA, as armed

4 people, we could have organised attacks on Serb population and villages in

5 many parts of Kosova, but all over the time, during all of the war this

6 has never happened, even in a single instance."

7 First of all, Mr. Krasniqi, was that evidence that you gave on

8 oath in the Limaj case true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were there Serb civilian villages, pockets of -- concentration of

11 Serb civilians in different parts of Kosovo during 1998?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And were they attacked, the civilian enclaves, by the KLA forces?

14 A. Not a single instance during the war.

15 Q. Thank you. Finally this --

16 MR. EMMERSON: And for this I need to go into private session, I'm

17 afraid.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5068











11 Page 5068 redacted. Private session.















Page 5069

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22 Then I further draw the attention that in paragraph 23 of the

23 notes it seems that we find at least the same word. Whether it has

24 different meanings or not is another matter, but it seems that the same

25 expression is used in all three places where it is translated

Page 5070

1 by "collaborators."

2 Mr. Harvey -- yes --

3 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Harvey does.


5 MR. EMMERSON: I gave a number in private session in respect of a

6 particular individual and I gave Your Honours the wrong number.


8 MR. EMMERSON: I think I can give the right number in open session

9 because the context -- well, perhaps not.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Kearney, the commitment you made in respect

11 of a witness with a certain number, where -- would that extend to the

12 number Mr. Emmerson will now give us -- no, perhaps, let's --

13 MR. EMMERSON: I think [indiscernible].

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would rather do it at the very end,

15 Mr. Emmerson, that's better. I have to read two decisions anyhow. We'll

16 then invite the witness to -- the witness to leave the courtroom already

17 so that in both directions that we keep confidentiality ensured.

18 Mr. Harvey.

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krasniqi, or good evening, perhaps. I am

21 representing Lahi Brahimaj, whom of course you got to know as colleagues

22 on the General Staff after you became spokesperson in June of 1998. Is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And, in fact, before you became spokesperson in June of 1998, you

Page 5071

1 didn't know Lahi Brahimaj at all, did you?

2 A. No, I didn't know him.

3 Q. Indeed, until at least March of 1998, your public persona was that

4 of -- you were a member of the Presidency of the LDK in Drenica; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In fact, in the Limaj transcript it appears as a member of the

8 Presidency of the LDK in Drenoc [sic], but in fact it should be Drenica,

9 should it not?

10 A. Drenas in Gllogoc.

11 Q. Oh, Drenac [sic] in Gllogoc.

12 A. It's Drenas and the official name is Gllogoc, the official name

13 used in the administration, the UNMIK administration.

14 Q. Thank you for that clarification. You officially broke with the

15 LDK after the massacre -- massacres in Prekaze and Likoshan; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You've already told the Tribunal today that until June of 1998,

19 others in the KLA General Staff did not know you, and that was because, of

20 course, of your public position. Rather than publicising your association

21 with the KLA, you were publicly an LDK man; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you would not be surprised to learn that Lahi Brahimaj had no

24 idea that you had anything to do with the General Staff until your public

25 announcement on the 11th of June of 1998?

Page 5072

1 A. I did not know this, I did not know him, and if Lahi did not know

2 me, he can say that for himself.

3 Q. I'd like to ask you a little about the conditions under which you

4 were operating with the General Staff in the middle of 1998 --

5 MR. HARVEY: And perhaps it would be helpful in this regard if we

6 could have D37, a map of the Drenica area, on our screen.

7 Q. First of all, while we're waiting for that to come up,

8 Mr. Krasniqi, is it correct that the General Staff at this period did not

9 have any one specific building out of which it was operating? I'm talking

10 about when -- after you had joined in June of 1998.

11 A. Until June 1998, the staff did not have one specific building

12 where they met. But after I was appointed spokesperson, the meetings of

13 the General Staff were held generally at the place where I was based.

14 Q. And that was, remind us, please?

15 A. From 10th of June onwards, after I was appointed spokesperson, the

16 meetings of the General Staff were held mainly, not always but mainly,

17 where I was based, because I was the public person.

18 Q. My question is: Where were you based?

19 A. Before the public announcement, two or three meetings were held in

20 my own home, in my neighbourhood, also in houses of my relatives. Then

21 after my appointment, the meetings were held in Klecke, Divjake,

22 Fshati i Ri or Novo Selle, and Negrovce. All these villages are in the

23 Berisha mountains, while Lladroc is in the southern part of these

24 mountains. They are in the map as well, you can see them.

25 Q. I think we can see Klecke almost immediately due south of the red

Page 5073

1 triangle of Berisha, and then to the west of Klecke we see Lladroc. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. To the north-east of Klecke we see Divjake?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if we continue -- sorry. If we continue on almost in a line

7 from Klecke through Divjake we get to Negroc?

8 A. Negrovce is in the north-western part of the Berisha mountains --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: North-eastern part.

10 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

11 Q. And so -- sorry, Novo Selle is not marked on this map. Is that

12 close to -- can you give us an indication of a town that it's close to or

13 a village that it's close to?

14 A. There is a red dot here and the triangle which says Berisha, close

15 to Berisha, to the south, is the village of Novo Selle or Fshati i Ri. It

16 is close to the Berisha village.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Just to make matters clear, so that is Novo Selle

18 entirely different from the Novo Selle north of Pec.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's a different one.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because one appears on the map -- of the maps

21 that have ever been shown to us and the other does not.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you a little about where you stayed. Did you

25 always stay in your own home during this period after June when you became

Page 5074

1 the public spokesperson, or did you have to live essentially underground?

2 A. After I became spokesperson, I went to my village from time to

3 time because along this line to the north, after Berisha you have Arlat

4 and after Arlat you have Negrovce. There is a rectangle there coloured in

5 red. However, most of the time I spent in Divjake, Klecke, in Javor which

6 is to the south-east of Klecke, and Javoc [phoen]. I also went to other

7 villages in Drenica, but mainly I stayed in the villages I mentioned.

8 Q. Would it be fair to say that other members of the General Staff

9 like you were also moving around constantly from one place to another for

10 security reasons?

11 A. Yes, they moved for security reasons and they were not made public

12 because of security reasons.

13 Q. After you joined - I'm going to take it from June 11th onwards -

14 how frequently would you be in contact with Lahi Brahimaj? Would it be,

15 should we say, on a weekly basis, a daily basis, or a monthly basis? How

16 frequently? Should we say between -- for the first month of your

17 membership of the General Staff -- your public membership of the

18 General Staff?

19 A. During the first month we met more often because there was not too

20 much fighting going on in Kosova. We were in a phase of trying to

21 consolidate the General Staff, and Lahi Brahimaj was staying for a longer

22 time in this part of Drenica. So we saw each other more often. So when

23 Lahi was staying in these villages in Drenica, we met more often, more

24 frequently, while when he was in the Dukagjini area, we did not meet that

25 frequently.

Page 5075

1 Q. The General Staff divided responsibilities between the political

2 and the operative areas of responsibility; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You, of course, were in the political. To whom did you report

5 directly?

6 A. Each department had a chief, and the head of the department -- of

7 the political department was Hashim Thaqi. This department informed the

8 General Staff on political issues.

9 Q. Lahi Brahimaj would have been on the operative side; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Lahi Brahimaj was - how can I put it? - he was head of financial

12 and economic issues.

13 Q. And was he, therefore, reporting to Sokol Bashota and

14 Rexhep Selimi?

15 A. Yes, because they had higher positions.

16 Q. Now, you visited Jabllanice on two occasions. Would that be

17 correct? One in around about the middle of July - I'm not going to put a

18 precise date on it - and the second time about the 7th of September.

19 First of all, do you agree that you were in Jabllanice on two occasions,

20 roughly those dates?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And when you visited Jabllanice, did you see the barracks there

23 where the soldiers stayed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And on the occasions when you were there, would it be fair to say

Page 5076

1 there were probably something in the region of 20 or more soldiers

2 stationed in those barracks?

3 A. The first time I went there, there were more soldiers, I think.

4 In Jabllanice at the time there was also a field hospital where there were

5 some wounded soldiers. But the first time, as I already mentioned, there

6 were more soldiers in Jabllanice. They were better organised. The second

7 time when I went there, after the summer offensive and after the defeat

8 that the KLA suffered because of people who deserted, Tahir Zemaj's people

9 who deserted and went to Albania, the KLA at the time in Jabllanice had

10 only 30 soldiers, approximately, and Jabllanice was surrounded by police

11 and military Serb forces. The situation was very difficult at the time in

12 the Dukagjin area for the KLA.

13 Q. I certainly accept everything you said about that. That would

14 have been around the 7th of September, that visit; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Going back to the earlier visit in July, you say there were more

17 soldiers on that occasion than the 30 or so whom you saw in September.

18 Approximately how many soldiers did you see, do you think, in July?

19 Again, I'm not asking for a precise figure.

20 A. I cannot give you an exact figure, but there were many soldiers.

21 Q. Now, when you gave an answer earlier today to the Tribunal

22 that "When it came to contact in the Dukagjin Zone, Lahi Brahimaj was the

23 person I knew and the person I communicated with. I think he was

24 responsible for the area at the time."

25 Do you recall giving that answer to the Prosecutor earlier on

Page 5077

1 today?

2 A. Yes. He was not only responsible for the area at the time, but he

3 was also a member of the General Staff of the KLA.

4 Q. Well, I want to explore what you mean by "responsible for the

5 area." He was, of course, a staff officer on the General Staff; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And as a staff officer on the General Staff, would you agree he

9 was not in a position to be a command officer on the ground in the

10 Dukagjin Zone at the same time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you say that he was somebody who was responsible for the

13 area, is that in the sense that within the General Staff when you would

14 have a meeting of the General Staff to receive reports from different

15 zones, he would be somebody who would be consulted because he had a

16 specialised knowledge of the Dukagjin area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Because, of course, you knew, as Mr. Emmerson has already

19 questioned you about, that Ramush Haradinaj from the 23rd of June at least

20 onwards was the commander of the zone?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And so, when you said again earlier, I'm going to quote you, if I

23 may: "In the beginning when the fighting occurred, especially in early

24 June, as far as the Dukagjini Zone is concerned our first man as member of

25 the General Staff was Lahi Brahimaj. So I learned of Ramush Haradinaj as

Page 5078

1 a name through Lahi Brahimaj."

2 When you gave that answer earlier today, was that again in this

3 same context, that when fighting started, you in your position as

4 spokesperson for the KLA on the political side, you automatically went to

5 Lahi Brahimaj because he was there with you in Drenica and said,

6 basically, "Lahi, brief me on what's going on in the Dukagjin Zone."

7 A. Yes, of course, because he was a member of the General Staff and

8 it was logical that I would address him first.

9 Q. Thank you. Sorry, I just turned myself off.

10 Thank you. Communications were not only by telephone, you said in

11 answer to a question from Mr. Kearney earlier today. Was that because it

12 was dangerous -- it was considered dangerous to use the telephones too

13 much because they were tapped by the Serb intelligence agencies?

14 A. Yes, of course they were tapped. And in order to escape from this

15 tapping, we tried to use the satellite telephones. Sometimes the

16 reception was not good. Whenever we could, we sometimes went physically

17 to meet a person that we needed to meet or sometimes we also used a

18 courier.

19 Q. I'm going to turn now briefly to my last topic with you, and that

20 concerns --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, before you do so --

22 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll not finish with the witness today anyhow. How

24 much time would you still need? I have to read two decisions and we have

25 to go into private session for the matter we discussed earlier.

Page 5079

1 MR. HARVEY: I'm happy to pause here and resume in the morning. I

2 may need ten minutes, it may be less than that. I see the time.


4 Then for tomorrow then you would need ten minutes. I have tried

5 to calculate, Mr. Guy-Smith, when you said, "I'd use the time remaining,"

6 that would be approximately 40, 45 minutes, that was my calculation at

7 least.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: That was my calculation, too. I believe I need

9 about 20 minutes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would give us half an hour.

11 Mr. Kearney, I did understand that you would need ...?

12 MR. KEARNEY: No more than half an hour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That brings us tomorrow to finish well within the

14 time of the first session.

15 Then, Mr. Krasniqi, we'll have to deal with a few procedural

16 matters, but we're not going to bother you with that, Mr. Krasniqi. I'd

17 like to give you the same instructions as I did yesterday, that is, that

18 you should not speak with anyone about the testimony already given or

19 still to be given. And we'd like to see you back tomorrow, quarter past

20 2.00 in afternoon, and if I'm not mistaken, Madam Registrar, this same

21 courtroom.

22 Yes. Madam Usher, could you escort Mr. Krasniqi out of the

23 courtroom.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd first like to turn into private session for

Page 5080

1 a second.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5081











11 Page 5081 redacted. Private session.















Page 5082

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then. In relation to the present witness,

4 Mr. Krasniqi, the transcripts in the Limaj case of the testimony of this

5 witness are admitted into evidence. As far as the nine attached documents

6 are concerned, Mr. Kearney, the Chamber would prefer that you would

7 provide for admission clear copies -- I mean clean copies. Because now

8 the nine documents attached to the transcript bear P numbers, but P

9 numbers of the Limaj case, which could easily create all kinds of

10 confusion. So therefore, we'd like to separate the transcript in the

11 Limaj case and then have not nine documents but eight documents because

12 attachment 5 is the same as already attached to the statement of this

13 witness. So the Chamber would then expect you to provide us with eight

14 clean copies not bearing the numbers in the Limaj case in order to avoid

15 confusion.

16 Then I've got two decisions I'd like to deliver. The first one is

17 a decision, the Trial Chamber's decision, on protective measures for

18 Witness 6. On the 25th of May, 2007, the Prosecution applied for the

19 trial-related protective measures of pseudonym, and face and voice

20 distortion for Witness 6. The witness and his family live in Kosovo. The

21 witness has expressed fear for his safety and that of his family should it

22 become publicly known that he gave evidence for the Prosecution. On the

23 29th of May, 2007, the Chamber put on the record that the Defence did not

24 oppose the motion.

25 The party seeking protective measures for a witness, which in this

Page 5083

1 case is the Prosecution, must demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to

2 the security or welfare of the witness or the witness's family should it

3 become known that the witness has given evidence before the Tribunal.

4 This standard can be satisfied by showing that a threat was made against

5 the witness or the witness's family, or by demonstrating a combination of

6 the following three factors: One, the witness's testimony may antagonise

7 persons who reside in a specific territory; two, the witness or his or her

8 family live or work in the territory, have property in that territory, or

9 have concrete plans to return to live in the territory; and three, there

10 exists an unstable security situation in that territory, which is

11 particularly unfavourable to witnesses who appear before the Tribunal.

12 According to the Prosecution, Witness 6 received threats in the

13 past. He was granted protective measures at the pre-trial stage. The

14 Prosecution has not reported on any new threats directed against Witness

15 6. Nevertheless, given the nature of the witness's testimony, the Chamber

16 is satisfied that it may antagonise persons who reside in Kosovo. The

17 Chamber also notes that the witness and his family live in Kosovo and do

18 not wish to be relocated for reasons that are understandable for the

19 Chamber.

20 The Chamber takes this opportunity to inform the parties that it

21 accepts their agreement that there exists an unstable security situation

22 in Kosovo, which is particularly unfavourable to witnesses who appear

23 before the Tribunal. This agreement can be found on the transcript pages

24 3955 and 3956.

25 As the three conditions of the test are met, the Trial Chamber

Page 5084

1 grants the Prosecution's request for pseudonym and face and voice

2 distortion. And this concludes the Trial Chamber's decision on protective

3 measures for Witness 6.

4 I'd like to deliver one other decision, and it has some urgency,

5 that's why it might take us three minutes or four minutes past 7.00, that

6 is a decision on the Prosecution's motion of the 7th of May, 2007, for the

7 admission pursuant to Rule 92 ter of Witness 12's transcript and related

8 exhibits in the Limaj case.

9 That transcript consists of 137 pages, and there is a total of two

10 exhibits, both of which are maps. The Prosecution in paragraphs 2 and 3

11 of its motion identifies certain topics which are, according to the

12 Prosecution "extremely probative and highly relevant" to this case. The

13 footnotes refer to half a dozen pages of transcript. However, the

14 Prosecution apparently does not limit its submission to these pages and

15 asks for the whole transcript to be admitted.

16 Having read the whole of the witness's transcript in the Limaj

17 case, the Chamber considers that the Prosecution has not sufficiently

18 demonstrated that the bulk of the evidence contained therein is relevant

19 and has probative value, since it mostly covers incidents which are

20 outside the scope of the indictment in the present case, such as several

21 meetings with Commander Celiku, also known as Fatmir Limaj.

22 In particular, the Chamber has found about 30 pages with direct

23 relevance to the present case and less than 20 pages relating to the

24 background of the armed conflict, which leaves more than 80 pages whose

25 relevance to the present case is unclear or doubtful.

Page 5085

1 The Chamber invites the Prosecution to specify the exact pages of

2 the transcript which it considers relevant to the present case and why

3 they are relevant. The Prosecution is given 24 hours to do so.

4 The Chamber wishes to add a few policy remarks which the parties

5 may find useful as guidance. Even though Rule 92 ter does not exclude

6 admission of written evidence that goes to the acts or conduct of the

7 accused, the present Chamber prefers that the Prosecution elicits evidence

8 that is central and critical to the present case viva voce. This ensures

9 that the Chamber is better able to understand evidence of this kind it

10 admits. Thus, if the Limaj transcript contains such evidence, the witness

11 should be additionally examined on it viva voce.

12 The Prosecution should, in general, take great care not to flood

13 the Chamber with information whose utility is not apparent to the Chamber

14 or which is of insufficient relevance to this case.

15 This concludes the Chamber's decision.

16 Although it's not usual to comment on decisions, I hope that it's

17 well understood that the viva voce examination of a witness on these kind

18 of topics is in addition to admission of 92 ter statements dealing with

19 the same matter. It's just the Chamber does not want solely on basis of

20 the written statement or the written transcripts gain an impression and

21 gain an understanding of the testimony the witness -- the evidence the

22 witness gives.

23 We adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day of

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1 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.