Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5284

1 Monday, 4 June 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Harvey, are you ready to continue cross-examination of Witness

12 6?

13 MR. HARVEY: I am, Your Honour. Good morning.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Witness 6, I want to remind you that you're

15 still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

16 testimony; that is, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

17 nothing but the truth.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.

19 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/6 [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, Witness 6.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. When we left off on Friday, I had asked you about a visit that you

25 made to Jagodina, and I'd like to start back there this morning.

Page 5285

1 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I have, with the assistance of my

2 colleagues, managed to prepare a map over the weekend. It hasn't been

3 possible to upload it into e-court yet. Your Honour, I see, has it.

4 Perhaps the witness could be shown a copy of it, and probably the best

5 thing would be if it could be placed on the ELMO. Now we have it up on

6 the screens.

7 Could it move just a fraction out, just a tiny little bit more.

8 That's it, perfect. Thank you very much.

9 Q. Now, Witness 6, do you see the map on the screen in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you look all the way to the bottom of the map, do you see

12 Djakovica is marked there? Perhaps -- well, do you see that?

13 A. I can't see it yet.

14 Q. I don't know if Madam Usher can assist you. It's almost at the

15 very bottom, about a third -- between a third and a half from the centre.

16 There we go. Yeah. Okay. And you --

17 A. [No interpretation]

18 Q. Sorry. Get a translation of that.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat what you just said, because

21 the interpreters did not hear you correctly.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did see it. I can see Gjakove on

23 the map, Djakovica.


25 Q. Thank you, sir. And do you see Beograd at the top left-hand

Page 5286

1 corner of the map?

2 A. Yes, I can see it.

3 Q. Now, if you take a direction to the south-west of Beograd, can you

4 find Jagodina on that map?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harvey, please.

8 MR. HARVEY: My apologies.

9 Again, could I ask that we pull back from this picture just a

10 little so that we can see the scale that is shown at the bottom of the

11 map. A bit further. Yeah. There we are. Thank you very much.

12 Q. Now, do you see, sir, to the bottom right-hand corner there is a

13 scale of 100 kilometres?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you agree with me that the distance by road between

16 Djakovica and Jagodina would be something in the region of 250 kilometres?

17 A. I don't know how many.

18 Q. You drove that journey, didn't you, sir?

19 A. Yes, I did, but I didn't mark down the kilometres.

20 Q. On how many occasions have you made that journey, sir, to

21 Jagodina?

22 A. Only once.

23 Q. And when you went there last year, that was to renew your driver's

24 licence, your Serbian driver's licence, and to obtain some travel

25 documents. Is that correct?

Page 5287

1 A. Yes, I went to get some citizenship papers and to renew the

2 driver's licence.

3 Q. And was there any other purpose for which you went there, sir,

4 last year?

5 A. My brothers wanted to have their citizenship papers because they

6 work abroad and they needed for the Swiss consulate, they needed those

7 papers.

8 Q. You could have obtained the same papers in Pristina, could you

9 not, sir?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Why not?

12 A. Because we're not a state yet.

13 Q. You can obtain travel documents in Pristina, can't you? You can

14 obtain Schengen visas?

15 A. No. I went there to get those papers, to renew the Yugoslav

16 passports for them.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, your question about getting visas and

18 getting travel documents is rather confusing. As far as my legal

19 knowledge goes, if I want to apply for a visa, that is, entry into a

20 certain country, I have to approach the authorities of that country or

21 that area. Whereas if I -- so, for example, if I want to enter the United

22 States, I need a visa -- I don't need it anymore at this moment, but I

23 would have to go to the US consulate whereas if you want to have a new

24 passport I would go to my own authorities. So therefore to say you could

25 get travel papers, isn't it, in Pristina, you could get visa, Schengen

Page 5288

1 visa, that is confusing for me and it might be confusing for the witness

2 as well.

3 MR. HARVEY: I apologise for any confusion. Let me see if I can

4 resolve it.

5 Q. Do the Swiss authorities, that is, the Swiss government maintain a

6 consulate in Jagodina?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. So you weren't going to Jagodina to obtain any papers -- any visas

9 issued by the Swiss authorities, were you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How many passports do you hold, sir?

12 A. Only one, a Yugoslav one.

13 Q. How many driving licences do you hold, sir?

14 A. Only the one from UNMIK.

15 Q. I thought you told us that you went to Jagodina to obtain a

16 driving licence there, sir?

17 A. Yes, but they did not give it to me. They said, Come back in

18 three months, and I didn't go to get it.

19 Q. And so, please tell us, what are the papers for your brothers in

20 Switzerland that you were going to collect in Jagodina?

21 A. They're Yugoslav citizenship papers, in order for their passports

22 to be renewed in Switzerland.

23 Q. And what is the office that you went to in Jagodina?

24 A. I went to the centre of SUP, of Gjakove.

25 Q. Is this the only time you've been to that office?

Page 5289

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]

3 Madam Registrar, perhaps before I move on we should mark this --

4 have this map marked for identification, if Your Honours please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I do not mind to have it marked; at the

6 same time, it has assisted us in knowing where we approximately are. But

7 apart from that, it's a map as any other map, isn't it?

8 MR. HARVEY: I'm in Your Honours hands. I think that's probably

9 true. The record speaks for itself in terms of -- the only matter that I

10 would seek to introduce it for, since the witness has indicated that he

11 does not know the distance in kilometres between Gjakove and Jagodina --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine.

13 Madam Registrar, it would be number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D113.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 No objections against admission?

17 I take it that you want to tender it, Mr. Harvey.

18 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I do, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then D113 is admitted into evidence.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

21 Q. Now, moving on to your interview in Jagodina, you gave a sworn

22 statement to the commander of the SUP in Jagodina; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You swore in that statement to tell the truth; that's correct,

25 yes?

Page 5290

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 MR. HARVEY: And, Your Honours, I think it would probably assist

3 us to have 3D010174 on the screens, it would assist the witness to have --

4 well, it probably won't assist the witness because we don't have a

5 translation in a language that he understands, unfortunately.

6 Q. While that's being brought up, Witness 6 --

7 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

8 Mr. Harvey, one question: The Chamber has been provided with

9 copies of statements, as usual. I noticed that the original we received

10 is not exactly the same as the translation we have on our screen at this

11 moment. Of course, I didn't check the whole of it, but it struck me that

12 under the date, the 11th of July, 2006, in my original I see something

13 which very much looks like IKM Jagodina, Jagodina, which does not appear

14 on the translation. Of course, I'm not in a position to check

15 translations in full, but there seems to be a -- I don't know whether you

16 have the same original. That's with a -- with a finger-mark on the

17 bottom --

18 MR. HARVEY: I have everything Your Honour has, and before we go

19 any further perhaps since this document may reveal more than ought to be

20 in the public domain --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we should --

22 MR. HARVEY: -- we should be in private session.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- we should be in private session.

24 MR. HARVEY: I apologise I --

25 [Private session]

Page 5291











11 Page 5291 redacted. Private session.















Page 5292

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.

14 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15 Q. This statement was taken in Jagodina, you've just confirmed, if

16 that's witness?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It was taken in the SUP office, the Secretariat of the Interior,

19 which purports to exercise authority over the area of Gjakove/Djakovica?

20 A. I went there to get those documents. I don't know about the other

21 things.

22 Q. What is your understanding about that office in Jagodina? Do they

23 issue papers for people who live in Gjakove or Djakovica?

24 A. That's correct. Most of the people went there to get their

25 documents; I went, too.

Page 5293

1 Q. There's no SUP office at this time or last year in Gjakove, is

2 there?

3 A. No, there isn't.

4 Q. Now, in your statement you said you came to Gjakove SUP in

5 Jagodina in order to get a driver's licence, and you said: "I would like

6 to make a statement when on," and you give the date of the 21st of June,

7 1998, "with my family," and you then go on to describe the events that

8 took place in June of 1998. Now, in this statement you've given the 21st

9 of June, you told the Tribunal here that, in fact, it was the 13th of

10 June. Can you explain that mistake?

11 A. Well, it's not too far back in time. I don't think giving the

12 wrong date is a big problem.

13 Q. Did you have any documents with you when you -- to help you recall

14 events when you were making this statement?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I'm just going to take you to a number of particular passages in

17 it. At the very last line on the page of translation that we have in

18 front of us, you said -- describing the UCK roadblock, you said: "There

19 were 20 Albanian persons in front of me, both sides in camouflage

20 uniforms, some of them had black uniforms and I know the time was exactly

21 1300 hours."

22 You recall saying that in your statement?

23 A. Maybe I said that. I'm not very sure.

24 Q. Again, you may not think it makes much difference, but you told

25 the investigators of this Tribunal back in 2002 that there were ten

Page 5294

1 persons, ten Albanian persons; it's now 20. Were you trying to exaggerate

2 or had you just forgotten?

3 A. I said here that there were ten, but there were more than that. I

4 gave them the minimum number.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's perhaps not a hugely

6 important matter, but it's a matter that does require some clarification.

7 I think if the previous statement of the witness is to be put to him,

8 it's -- the correct statement should be put to him. In that November 2002

9 statement he said "approximately ten," not ten precisely.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey --

11 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful, and that is a correct statement.

12 Q. You told the authorities in Serbia that there were 20. Do you

13 think it may have been more than 20?

14 A. I don't know. I was surrounded by KLA when I was in the car. I

15 don't know whether there were more than 20.

16 Q. How were you able to give the time as being exactly 1300 hours,

17 1.00 p.m.?

18 A. It was around that time. It's been nine years now. I cannot tell

19 you exactly, so I can say more things or less things now because it's been

20 nine years. It's not that this happened a week ago.

21 Q. Witness, I'm sure everybody understands that. What I'm trying to

22 find out is how you were able to tell the SUP authorities just a year ago

23 that the time was exactly 1300 hours.

24 A. It was around that time.

25 Q. When you gave your statement to the SUP authorities, you used the

Page 5295

1 name -- the full name Nenad Remistar as the traffic policeman who was

2 stopped by the KLA. Did you know his full name at that time?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Well, how come his full name is put into that statement? Was that

5 done by the SUP authorities?

6 A. They knew his last name; I didn't.

7 Q. Well, were they telling you what to put into the statement?

8 A. No, no, they simply marked down his last name. I only knew him by

9 his first name of Nenad. They wrote his last name.

10 Q. Did they tell you anything else about him, apart from his last

11 name?

12 A. No.

13 Q. A little later on in your statement, after you have described

14 being kept in that room for two months, you said this: "I later found out

15 that while I was in prison two brothers were in charge. One of them was

16 called Lahi Brahimaj, nickname Maxhupi, and the other brother is called

17 Nazmi Brahimaj. They are both from Jablanica village."

18 When you said that you later found that out, what did you mean by

19 that, sir?

20 A. I was imprisoned and for four weeks I didn't know the name of

21 anyone. Only after I was released, I saw their pictures and found out.

22 Q. Where was it you saw their pictures, sir?

23 A. I saw their -- not their pictures, but their faces. They came

24 there every day.

25 Q. No. I'm going to read your last answer back to you, sir, and I'm

Page 5296

1 going to ask you the same question. Your answer was: "I was imprisoned

2 and for four weeks I didn't know the name of anyone. Only after I was

3 released, I saw their pictures and found out."

4 I ask you again, sir: Where was it after you were released that

5 you saw their pictures and found out their names?

6 A. For the two weeks I had more freedom, then I saw their faces and

7 heard their names, but I didn't say anything.

8 Q. On Friday in answer to Mr. Di Fazio you said this --

9 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I don't have the corrected in front of

10 me. This is at page 33 of the transcript that we had on Friday.

11 Q. "After I was released, I wanted to find out their names. I knew

12 them by appearance."

13 Again, sir, it's right, isn't it, that after you were released,

14 still up until that time you still didn't know the names of the people

15 that you have now given the names to this Tribunal?

16 A. I knew that, their names, yes, but I said -- I didn't say

17 everything I knew in my statement there.

18 Q. I'm going to suggest to you -- well, first of all, let's go back.

19 When was it that you were shown for the first time you were shown their

20 pictures?

21 A. I wasn't shown any pictures of them; I saw them in person.

22 Q. Sir, are you trying to be truthful in your answers to this Trial

23 Chamber?

24 A. Yes, yes, I'm telling the truth.

25 Q. I'm going back to an answer you gave just a little while ago.

Page 5297

1 "I was imprisoned and for four weeks I didn't know the name of

2 anyone. Only after I was released, I saw their pictures and found out."

3 For the third time, sir, I ask you: When was it and where was it

4 that you were shown their pictures and found out their names?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, you now for the second time say: "You

6 were shown pictures," where the witness testified that he saw pictures;

7 that is not the same.

8 MR. HARVEY: I appreciate there may be a subtle difference there.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And especially since it comes down to details

10 here.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. You heard the Presiding Judge's point there, that you said that

14 you saw their pictures and found out their names. Where did you see their

15 pictures and how did you find out their names?

16 A. I didn't see any pictures of them. I saw their faces every day,

17 and I learned their names, hearing someone speaking of or to them by that

18 name.

19 Q. Let me suggest this to you, sir: When you were released from

20 Jablanica and you were told that you were free to go, you went straight to

21 State Security headquarters in Djakovica, did you not?

22 A. What year are you talking?

23 Q. Well, what year were you released from Jablanica?

24 A. On the 25th, 1988.

25 Q. The answer was translated as 1988. You must mean 1998, sir?

Page 5298

1 THE INTERPRETER: That's what the witness said: "1988."

2 MR. HARVEY: I wasn't arguing with the translation; I'm asking the

3 witness.

4 Q. Did you mean 1998?

5 A. 1998.

6 Q. And when you left Jablanica, the first thing you did was you went

7 straight to the State Security headquarters in Djakovica, didn't you, sir?

8 A. No. I went after five days to get some papers, driving licence,

9 the ID. I went there to get a copy of them.

10 Q. Let's go back to the statement that you gave in 2006 in Jagodina.

11 In that statement you told them this. Please listen carefully: "When I

12 was released from detention, I went to report the case to the chief of

13 State Security Camovic. From Jablanica I walked. Along the way I saw

14 some Romas who were travelling with horse-drawn cart, but from Djakovica

15 until I arrived at Camovic I didn't talk to anyone about it. The Romas

16 gave me a lift from Grgoc to Crmljane, and from there I went to Djakovica

17 on foot and reported the case to Camovic."

18 I'm going to break that down in stages, sir. Do you agree with me

19 that what has been written down in Jagodina last year is that you told the

20 SUP authorities there that you left Jablanica, you walked, you got a lift

21 on a horse-drawn cart for part of the way, and then you walked again until

22 you got to Djakovica and reported the case to Camovic, all on the same

23 day?

24 A. No. They have written it wrongly. I didn't say that.

25 Q. So you say that you waited for five days, is that it, before going

Page 5299

1 to the State Security headquarters?

2 A. First I went to the doctor. I wanted to get better, and then I

3 went to get those papers. They have written what they wanted. I didn't

4 state what you are putting to me.

5 Q. At the very end of the statement, sir, the one that you gave in

6 2006 in Jagodina, are these words: "Official Note was read over to the

7 citizen pursuant to Article 226, paragraph 5, of the ZKP, and he has no

8 objections."

9 When this statement was finished, did they read it over to you?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you read it yourself?

12 A. No. I don't know how to read Serbian.

13 Q. Did you sign it?

14 A. Yes, I signed it.

15 Q. Did you also put your finger-print on it?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. And when you signed it and put your finger-print on it, did you

18 appreciate that you were saying that the contents of the statement were

19 true?

20 A. No, I didn't know what they had written there.

21 Q. And you didn't ask them to read it over to you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And when they wrote that they had read it over to you, that was a

24 lie, was it?

25 A. They know it.

Page 5300

1 Q. Is the -- or going back to 1998 now. Was the DB, the State

2 Security, responsible for issuing driver's licences?

3 A. Where do you mean?

4 Q. In Djakovica?

5 A. Which year?

6 Q. In 1998, the year that you had been in Jablanica.

7 A. I went there after five days to get my papers.

8 Q. Did you hear my question?

9 A. Maybe I didn't understand it.

10 Q. Let's try again. Going back to 1998 now, was the DB, the State

11 Security, responsible for issuing driver's licences in Gjakove?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That wasn't the responsibility of SUP?

14 A. They were together in the same building.

15 Q. Yes, but the chief of State Security doesn't issue driver's

16 licences or he didn't issue driver's licences in 1998, did he?

17 A. No, no. His employees were those who issued.

18 Q. Now, you told -- again back in 2006, you told the authorities in

19 Jagodina that you reported to Camovic about what had happened to you in

20 Jablanica; right?

21 A. No, they have added that.

22 Q. Well, let's understand this. You knew Camovic by his first name

23 of Streok; correct?

24 A. Sret.

25 Q. I apologise, Sret. Thank you. And you had known him for a period

Page 5301

1 of some 20 years back in 1998; correct?

2 A. Yes, because he was a professor in the school.

3 Q. And did you used to see him regularly during those 20 years?

4 A. Not for some time.

5 Q. In relation to July of 1998, when was the last time before that

6 that you had seen Sret?

7 A. When I came out of Jabllanice.

8 Q. And before you came out of Jablanica, when was the last time you

9 had seen him?

10 A. I don't know. It was a long time. It's a long time. I don't

11 know now.

12 Q. When you -- do you agree, let's deal with that, first of all, do

13 you agree that you did go to see him in July of 1998 after you came out of

14 Jablanica?

15 A. I met him in a coffee place.

16 Q. Where was that?

17 A. In Pashtrik Hotel.

18 Q. And why did you go to meet him in the Pashtrik Hotel?

19 A. This is where I found him.

20 Q. And what did you say to him when you found him?

21 A. Nothing. He asked me, How was it in Jabllanice? I told him that

22 they took away my papers, and then he told me, Come tomorrow, bring the

23 necessary documents, and you will get a copy of new papers.

24 Q. I'm just going to read that part of that answer back to you. I

25 asked you: "What did you say to him when you found him?"

Page 5302

1 You answered: "Nothing. He asked me, How was it in Jabllanice?"

2 Did it appear to you, sir, that he already knew that you had been

3 in Jablanica when you came in to see him in the coffee shop in the Hotel

4 Pashtrik?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, there's -- the way the

7 questions are being framed and the flow of the answers may give rise to --

8 well, I don't know what it may give rise to, but there's a possibility --

9 there's a lack of clarity concerning whether this was a chance meeting or

10 an arranged meeting. That can be clarified with a single question. I

11 rather gathered -- well, I rather won't say -- but it's not clear from --

12 MR. HARVEY: I will deal with it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that Mr. Harvey takes your point,

14 Mr. Di Fazio.

15 Please proceed.


17 Q. Before I get to that specific question, I would like an answer to

18 this question, sir: By the time you saw Mr. Camovic in the Hotel

19 Pashtrik, did it seem to you that he already knew -- from what he said to

20 you, did it appear that he already knew that you had been in Jabllanice.

21 A. Yes, he knew it.

22 Q. And did he know that because you had told somebody else in the

23 State Security already or did he know from other reasons, as far as you're

24 aware?

25 (redacted)

Page 5303

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 Q. When you met Camovic, did you -- had you gone to the Hotel

8 Pashtrik because you knew that was where you were likely to find him?

9 A. No, no. I just went there to have a coffee, and then I met him

10 there.

11 Q. Well, had you gone to Djakovica that day in order to get your

12 driver's licence and other documents sorted out or had you just gone there

13 for coffee?

14 A. I went to Pashtrik to have a coffee, and I had my papers in the

15 Gjakove SUP, but this is far from Pashtrik. It's not in the same place.

16 Q. Had you already been to the Gjakove SUP by the time you went to

17 the Hotel Pashtrik?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. So you went first to the Hotel Pashtrik. Did you go there

20 expecting or hoping to see Mr. Camovic?

21 A. No, no. I just went there to have a coffee and ran into him.

22 Q. Were you on your own?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was Mr. Camovic on his own?

25 A. No, he was with some three friends of his whom I don't know.

Page 5304

1 Q. Did he call you over or did you go over to him?

2 A. I went over to him because I knew him.

3 Q. Did you sit down and have coffee with him?

4 A. Yes, I found them there and we had the coffee together. And then

5 I stayed there for half an hour and left, leaving them there.

6 Q. So you talked with him for half an hour about your experiences in

7 Jablanica. Is that correct?

8 A. No, I didn't talk with him for half an hour, but for some ten

9 minutes. He asked me how it was, what did you go through? And I said it

10 was a very bad time. The KLA was harsh on me. I told him that I was

11 maltreated, then they took away my car. And then he told me, Bring your

12 photos and you will have a duplicate of the papers.

13 Q. And did you go in to see him the next day?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you see him again to discuss this?

16 A. No, I didn't meet him anymore. I took the photos, handed them

17 there, and after two days they gave me the papers.

18 Q. Did you see a police officer or a state security office by the

19 name of Pavle Zuvic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where did you see him?

22 A. When I was to see the doctor, then on the way back from the doctor

23 he was a reservist policeman and I met him. And he asked me, How was it?

24 Did you see Nenad? I said, Yes. We were together for one night, tied up

25 and tortured, and then after that I didn't see him. This is all I talked

Page 5305

1 with him.

2 Q. And where was it that you saw Pavle Zuvic?

3 A. At the outpatient clinic in the textile factory when I just left

4 the clinic; some 200 metres away from it I met him.

5 Q. Was he on duty or was he just -- this is just a chance meeting in

6 the street?

7 A. He was in a civilian car. He was in civilian clothes.

8 Q. Have you ever been a reservist policeman?

9 A. Who?

10 Q. You.

11 A. No. I had a very large family of 40 members. I didn't have time

12 to serve as policeman. I was at home. I had to work hard to keep the

13 family.

14 Q. When you were having your conversation with Sret Camovic, which

15 language were you speaking?

16 A. Albanian.

17 Q. Did he appear interested in who was responsible for your torture

18 in Jablanica?

19 A. No, he didn't ask me, even though he knew the place better than I

20 did.

21 Q. How do you know that he knew the place?

22 A. Because he knew every detail.

23 Q. How did you know that?

24 A. He knew the names better than I did, the names of the persons that

25 I saw there during the imprisonment.

Page 5306

1 Q. So he was the person who told you their names, was he?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: -- wasn't what the witness said at all --

5 MR. HARVEY: That was my question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That was a question of Mr. Harvey. He suggested

7 something in a very leading way which --

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Well that's --

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- as far as I understand is not --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought that Mr. Harvey

11 was concluding that from the answer that was being given. If it's a

12 suggestion, I have no problem with it.

13 MR. HARVEY: Thank you --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you can put the question again to the

15 witness, Mr. Harvey.

16 MR. HARVEY: Yes, indeed.

17 Q. And so Sret Camovic knew the names better than you did, the names

18 of the persons that you saw there during your imprisonment. That's your

19 evidence; right?

20 A. He knew the terrain because I didn't ask him names or surnames.

21 He knew everything that was going on in the Gjakove municipality. He knew

22 every house, every family. He's older than me. He knew everyone.

23 Q. That wasn't my question. He knew the names better than you did;

24 that's what you just told us, isn't it?

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, Mr. Harvey, may I interrupt. Are we now

Page 5307

1 speaking of Sret Camovic?

2 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please --

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: One second.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, one second, please.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Are we speaking of Pavle Zuvic or again of Sret

6 Camovic?

7 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry if I've created confusion.

8 Q. I am speaking of Sret Camovic, and you said -- if I understand

9 your answer correctly, you said that Sret Camovic knew the names better

10 than you did. Isn't that what you told us, Witness?

11 A. No. I said he knew the terrain, he worked in the Gjakove

12 municipality. I am a villager myself. I did not know everybody. He knew

13 all the villages and -- in the commune or in the municipality of Gjakove

14 better than me.

15 Q. Well, Witness, we have your answers in front of you. I'm not

16 going to argue with you. It's right, isn't it, that Sret Camovic knew

17 names of people in Jablanica and he told you that he knew those names,

18 didn't he?

19 A. No, no.

20 Q. Well, as head of State Security, was he -- did he ask you anything

21 at all about the people who tortured you, as you have told us, in

22 Jablanica?

23 A. No, he didn't ask me.

24 Q. He wasn't interested to get information on their behaviour?

25 A. No, he didn't ask me.

Page 5308

1 Q. And he never asked --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I'd like to have one matter explored a

3 bit more in detail.

4 Witness 6, about Sret Camovic knowing people, you said only one or

5 two minutes ago, and I think you were talking about him, you said: "He

6 knew the names better than I did, the names of the persons that I saw

7 there during the imprisonment."

8 What did you exactly mean when you said that? Because later your

9 answer suggests that he would not know the names of those persons. Could

10 you tell us what you meant when you gave that first answer.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the chief and knew the region

12 of Gjakove. I did not say that he knew every name or surname. He knew

13 the terrain. He knew the families, who came from which family.

14 JUDGE ORIE: But when you spoke with him, did he appear to know

15 who the persons were that you saw during your imprisonment?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. He did not ask me about

17 them at all. Whether he knew them or didn't know them, I don't know,

18 because he did not ask me.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. You see, Witness, you have told this Tribunal about a number of

22 people who were in Jablanica with you who were being systematically

23 tortured, and you have mentioned Nenad, a police officer; you have

24 mentioned a Bosnian who worked for Elektro in Decani; you have mentioned

25 three Montenegrins; you have mentioned an Albanian Muslim who was fat, in

Page 5309

1 his 40s, who was delivered in the trunk of a Mercedes and who came from

2 Zahaq; you have mentioned Pal Krasniqi; you have mentioned another man, a

3 Catholic Albanian from Grabanica.

4 Now, are you saying, sir, that Sret Camovic knew everything about

5 all of those people?

6 A. No, no, he didn't ask me. And this person from Grabanica is not a

7 Catholic.

8 Q. Well, we'll come back to that. But what I'm trying to understand,

9 sir, is how you could be talking with the head of State Security and he's

10 not remotely interested in all of these people who you say were tortured

11 in Jabllanice. Now, did you tell him that you saw anybody else being

12 tortured there?

13 A. No, no. He didn't ask me about them.

14 Q. And you didn't think it was important to tell him?

15 A. It was important, but the situation was such that I did not tell

16 him anything and he did not ask me.

17 Q. And was it the same day or some other day when you went to get

18 your driving licence sorted out?

19 A. Two days later I went for the papers. I took the photos to the

20 place and I got the driving licence and the ID card.

21 Q. And did you see any officers of the State Security when you went

22 there for your driver's licence and ID card?

23 A. No, no. These were only women that were working in those offices.

24 There were no officers.

25 Q. Did you attempt to speak to anybody from State Security when you

Page 5310

1 went there two days later?

2 A. No.

3 Q. So, despite everything that had been done to you and everything

4 that you say had been done to all of these other people, the only thing

5 that you were interested in doing was renewing your driver's licence. Do

6 we understand you correctly, sir?

7 A. The war started and I did not have time to tell them anything.

8 Q. What do you mean, the war started and you didn't have time to tell

9 them anything?

10 A. I'm telling you now, here.

11 Q. You had time to sit and have coffee for half an hour with

12 Mr. Camovic. You had time to go back two days later to renew your

13 driver's licence. You had time to go to the doctor. You had time to talk

14 with Pavle Zuvic. What do you mean the war started and you didn't have

15 time?

16 A. Because they did not ask me how you were and where you were, I did

17 not give them any answers. And then I had to give that other statement

18 that you saw later, when I went there.

19 Q. Which was --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

21 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness said that he had a conversation

23 for ten minutes with Mr. Camovic. He went there for half an hour but had

24 a conversation, ten minutes; page 21, line 9. And apart from that, I

25 wonder whether it's fully appropriate to put to the witness: You found

Page 5311

1 time to go and see the doctor, which is -- might be -- he might have been

2 moved by other reasons. So therefore, precision there is the first thing

3 required; and second, to say: You found time to drink coffee, you found

4 time to see the doctor suggests more or less that these are similar

5 things, which they certainly are not.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. HARVEY: Well, Your Honour, I certainly don't mean to minimise

8 or trivialise any of these matters. I'm responding, though, of course, to

9 the witness's answer that: "The war started and I did not have time to

10 tell them anything." I merely seek to point out that over a period of

11 days he was not prevented by whatever he means by the war starting; he was

12 not prevented from doing other things.

13 Q. May I, Witness, just put this to you. You have never given to the

14 Serb authorities the stories concerning other individuals who were in

15 Jablanica with you, with the exception of Nenad Remistar. Isn't that

16 correct? You've never given that information to the Serb authorities?

17 A. They asked me about him and I told them about him.

18 Q. When you say "they," who are you talking about at this point, sir?

19 A. In Jagodine, when they asked me questions.

20 Q. You also told an investigator for the Office of the Prosecutor --

21 you know Pekka Haverinen, don't you?

22 A. I can't remember. I don't know. There were many and I don't know

23 their names.

24 Q. Well, do you recall that you were interviewed on the 17th and the

25 18th of January, 2003, and let me just put this aspect of your statement

Page 5312

1 to you, it's very brief.

2 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I'm looking at the statement of the

3 18th of -- 17th/18th of January, on the second page of that statement on

4 the fourth unnumbered paragraph.

5 Q. You said this: "After I was released, I heard from a Serb police

6 that Nenad had been killed but his body was not dumped in the lake of

7 Radoniq as many others, but maybe somewhere up in the mountains in the

8 area surrounding Peje or Kline."

9 First of all, sir, do you remember saying that to an investigator

10 from the Office of the Prosecutor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry.

15 Q. Who was the Serb police officer who gave you this information?

16 A. Pavle.

17 Q. And when do you say he gave you that information?

18 A. The day that I went to the doctor and I was coming out of the

19 clinic and I met him for three or four minutes [as interpreted] on the

20 street. That's what he told me on that occasion. Whether he was taken to

21 the lake or to the mountain, I mean his body, I don't know.

22 Q. Well, I'm trying to understand the statement that you gave to

23 Mr. Haverinen. The date when you went to the doctor we know from the

24 doctor's statement was the 30th of July, 1998, five days after you left

25 Jabllanice. Do you agree with that?

Page 5313

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you told Mr. Haverinen on the 18th of January, 2003, that

3 Pavle Zuvic had told you that "Nenad had been killed but his body was not

4 dumped in the lake of Radoniq as many others."

5 Do you agree that you made that statement, sir?

6 A. I may have said that, but maybe also the translators have gotten

7 it wrong. I don't know about it. There are mistakes in the translation.

8 Q. Well, we may have to ask you to look at the original of that, sir.

9 Have you -- have you reviewed your original statement in Albanian to that

10 interpreter -- to that investigator?

11 A. I didn't see it until later, when I saw it myself.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

13 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot for the full hundred per cent exclude that

15 there's some confusion.

16 Witness 6, your statement given in January 2003 doesn't say that

17 you know anything about where the -- where the body of Nenad was dumped,

18 but in that statement we only find that you heard from a Serb policeman

19 that the body was not dumped at Lake Radonjic but maybe somewhere else.

20 Is that what you heard from this policeman?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And is it true that you had no personal knowledge of

23 where the body was dumped?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, I don't know.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.

Page 5314

1 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for that clarification, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness, I'm not so much concerned with whether you know where the

3 body was dumped. I just want this to be clear, that in your conversation

4 with Pavle Zuvic on the 30th of July, 1998, he told you that Nenad's body

5 was not dumped in the lake of Radoniq, as many others. Is that your

6 testimony?

7 A. That's what he told me and I don't know any further.

8 Q. After you went to the doctor on the 30th of July, 1998, you never

9 had any further conversation with anybody in the Serb police or in the

10 Serb State Security about your experiences in Jablanica; is that correct

11 sir? That's, of course, up until 2006.

12 A. That's correct. I had no contact with them.

13 Q. Did you ever give a statement to the International Committee of

14 the Red Cross concerning the disappearance of Nenad?

15 A. They asked me questions and I gave them answers.

16 Q. Do you recall when that was?

17 A. No, I can't recall.

18 Q. Can you recall whether it was a short time after you left

19 Jabllanice or many years later?

20 A. I did not understand you.

21 Q. When you spoke with representatives of the International Committee

22 for the Red Cross, was that, shall we say, within six months to a year or

23 many years later after you left Jabllanice?

24 A. I don't know whether it was 2002 or 2003 when I started to give my

25 statements to the internationals.

Page 5315

1 Q. Going back, sir, to your statement to Zoran Nikic in Jagodina, you

2 are quoted there as saying: "I have reported this case about me and

3 policeman Remistar to the ICTY investigators in Prizren in 2000 and 2001

4 in Pristina."

5 Are those dates accurate, sir, or is that a mistake?

6 A. I can't remember what year it was, but I know that it was in

7 Prizren, yes.

8 Q. And you're also reported as having told Zoran Nikic in

9 Jagodina: "I don't know any other names, apart from the two brothers I

10 have mentioned above," and that, of course, would be Lahi Brahimaj and

11 Nazmi Brahimaj, "nor have I been able to find out anything but I would

12 like to know their names. I know that one of them is in The Hague now."

13 Do you recall making that statement, that you didn't know any

14 other names apart from those two?

15 A. The question was about those two.

16 Q. You were unable to give any other names, apart from those two,

17 back in 2006. Is that right?

18 A. Only those two.

19 Q. You didn't, for instance, remember the name of Hamza Brahimaj?

20 A. No, I didn't remember it at the time.

21 Q. And you didn't remember the name of Gani Brahimaj?

22 A. I didn't remember his name either. I couldn't remember

23 everything.

24 Q. Now, I'd like you to assist us, if you would, please, in trying to

25 understand how many people were with you in Jabllanice at different stages

Page 5316

1 during the six weeks that you have told us that you were there. First of

2 all, you arrived in Jabllanice on the afternoon of the 13th of June. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you were stopped at or around 1.00 in the afternoon and you

6 were held, as you've told us, for something like two hours at the road

7 side; that would take us to around about 3.00. Is that correct?

8 A. Maybe later, 3.30, 4.00.

9 Q. And you then drove through a series of villages until your wife

10 and children were dropped off, and then you continued on to Jabllanice.

11 Was it dark by the time you got to Jabllanice or was it still light,

12 bearing in mind that this is July [sic]?

13 A. It was light.

14 Q. Are we talking approximately 6.00 in the evening or later or

15 earlier?

16 A. It was earlier.

17 Q. And you have told this Tribunal that you and Nenad were taken to

18 the building immediately on the left inside the gate when you arrived at

19 Jabllanice. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you were kept in that building overnight. Is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And sometime the next day you were taken to the house?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were put in the room on the left-hand side of the entrance

Page 5317

1 door to the house, at the front. Is that correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. So at this stage we have you and Nenad together in that room;

4 correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was Nenad in a different room from you?

7 A. No. They took him away. They took me to that room and I don't

8 know where they took him to.

9 Q. I see. So you were on your own in that room and you don't know

10 where he was?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you -- sorry. Did you see him again after you were taken to

13 that room? Did you understand my question?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you see Nenad again after you were taken to that room?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 MR. HARVEY: I heard the witness say "jo," meaning no.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


20 Q. And --

21 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Harvey continues, I notice the

22 time. There's one very brief matter I would like to raise with

23 Your Honours in the absence of the witness. It might take a second or

24 two, and I wonder, if that's a convenient, moment we might break at that

25 point.

Page 5318

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, when --

2 MR. HARVEY: This is as convenient a moment as any other,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, we can't ask the witness to leave

5 the courtroom unless we have all the curtains down. That --

6 MR. EMMERSON: The quickest way of doing it would be for the

7 witness to remove his earphones.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that would be enough.

9 Could you take off -- Witness 6, could you take off your earphones

10 for a second.

11 MR. EMMERSON: It's just a very minor point.


13 MR. EMMERSON: I just wanted to make sure that my understanding on

14 this was correct in the light of some of the questions and the answers.

15 So far as we are aware, at least, there is no direct evidence of the death

16 of Nenad Remistar in this case, and I simply thought that some of the

17 questions and answers that proceeded, or seem to be proceeding on the

18 assumption that there might be.

19 MR. HARVEY: I'm certainly happy to clarify any misapprehension

20 that there may be. I'm also --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Whether there's any direct evidence or whether there

22 will be any direct evidence, because the Chamber doesn't know, but at

23 least this witness, when he spoke, I think about the death of Nenad

24 Remistar, it was always hearsay.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, yes, well, it was -- in the light of that and

Page 5319

1 in the way that the questions were asked and answered that I simply wanted

2 to have the position clarified, because of course we have all seen the

3 evidence on which the Prosecution has brought the indictment, some of

4 which, of course, Your Honours haven't seen --


6 MR. EMMERSON: -- and therefore, the comment that I make is based

7 upon not just to review the evidence that has been called but --

8 JUDGE ORIE: But also on what you expect will be presented.

9 MR. EMMERSON: -- what we think the evidence will be.

10 MR. HARVEY: May I just respond briefly, Your Honour?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may.

12 MR. HARVEY: I want to make it absolutely clear that we have

13 absolutely no information to suggest that Nenad Remistar is dead or died

14 by foul means, and I certainly didn't wish any of my questions to be taken

15 as an acknowledgement or admission of that. I'm merely dealing with the

16 witness's third-hand hearsay understanding.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. So therefore, where you said we have

18 absolutely no information to suggest, that might be a bit too strong

19 because we have the testimony of this witness who says that he heard about

20 it. So therefore -- but we all agree that that's hearsay until now and

21 whether it's second- or third-hand hearsay depends on what the source knew

22 or --

23 MR. HARVEY: Indeed.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And that's perhaps not fully explored. Yes.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I simply meant, raise the issue for clarification

Page 5320

1 for Your Honours; not necessarily for clarification with the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then this was the point you would like to

3 raise?

4 Then we'll have a break and we'll resume at -- but let's first ask

5 the witness to put his earphones on again.

6 Witness 6, there was a procedural matter we had to discuss, but we

7 now take our time for a break. We'll resume at 11.00, and could

8 Mr. Harvey give us any indication on how much time he would still need?

9 MR. HARVEY: It will certainly be all of the next session,

10 Your Honour. I cannot with certainty rule out the possibility that I

11 won't go over into the third session, but I will certainly finish with

12 this witness today.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there are other Defence counsel as well.

14 Mr. Emmerson --

15 MR. EMMERSON: I would expect something in the region of 40

16 minutes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: 40 minutes.

18 Mr. Guy-Smith.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: 15 minutes to a half-hour.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thus far, very little re-examination.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thus far.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: A matter of minutes at the absolute most.


24 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I will be more than happy to keep the Chamber

25 updated as the questioning progresses.

Page 5321


2 MR. EMMERSON: Likewise. It may well be that some of the

3 questions that I had in mind may will have already been asked.


5 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours --

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a logistical matter, if Your Honours please,

9 can we - the Prosecution, that is - safely say or rely on the assumption

10 that we don't need the next witness brought here until at least the

11 completion of the next session. I see Defence counsel nodding --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and at the same time hearing -- you said next

13 session certainly, then perhaps even a bit more. The Chamber would very

14 much like not to -- that not the whole of today's time will be spent on

15 this witness. So therefore, try to see whether we can start with the next

16 witness. I'm not thinking of -- of an hour, but rather at least that we

17 would have a start half an hour for the next witness. Here, of course,

18 we -- the evidence in chief was elicited in a non-leading way, so

19 therefore that the balance between Prosecution and Defence there is always

20 a bit different.

21 Let's -- the parties are urged to find the most efficient way,

22 and -- no, let me not further comment on this at this moment.

23 We'll have a break and we'll resume at 11.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

Page 5322

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, might I very, very briefly

2 introduce a new colleague who's joined the Prosecution, Ms. Antoinette

3 Issa. She will be leading the next witness, and I just wanted to inform

4 the Trial Chamber of this new face that you see before you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

6 And welcome in court, Ms. Issa.

7 Mr. Harvey, are you ready to --

8 MR. HARVEY: On behalf of the Defence, we welcome Ms. Issa as

9 well.

10 Your Honour, two very quick corrections, if I may. I did misstate

11 myself at page 33 when I put to the witness that we were talking about the

12 month of July when he was first taken to Jabllanice. Of course, it should

13 have been June.


15 MR. HARVEY: I think that's clear to everybody. There was also a

16 point on page 29 when the witness was asked how long he spoke with Pavle

17 Zuvic when he met him in the street. My -- I'm told that the transcript

18 reads - we're having some problems with our technology over here - but I'm

19 told that the transcript reads three to four minutes, but in fact what the

20 witness had said was ten minutes. It's not a major point --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I remember that at least it was translated as

22 three to four minutes, but I'm just looking now at page --

23 MR. HARVEY: 29, I believe.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- 29. Let me just -- yes, it's line 20.

25 Witness 6, you told us that you met Pavle when you were coming out

Page 5323

1 of the clinic. There was some confusion about how long you then saw him.

2 Could you tell us how long that was.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't look at the time. We were

4 just standing and talking. I can't tell you exactly, five or ten minutes,

5 maybe, but the important thing is that we talked together.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You briefly met in passing and had a conversation

7 which lasted for at least a couple of minutes. Is that ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can't be very precise about

9 the minutes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.


13 Q. More important is, obviously, what was said, Witness 6, and you

14 have told us that during that conversation Pavle Zuvic told you that he

15 believed that Nenad Remistar had been killed at Jabllanice. That's right,

16 that's what he told you, yes?

17 A. Yes, this is what he told me.

18 Q. He didn't tell you how he knew that or who told him that?

19 A. No, he didn't tell me, and I didn't ask him.

20 Q. He told you that the body was not dumped near Radoniq canal;

21 correct?

22 A. He didn't tell me.

23 Q. He didn't tell you that the body was not dumped near the canal --

24 in Lake Radoniq, sorry.

25 A. No, no, he didn't.

Page 5324

1 Q. Did he tell you that he thought that it was dumped somewhere in

2 the mountains near Peje or Klina?

3 A. Yes, this is what he told me. He was buried on the side of the

4 street -- of a street, but I don't know the place where.

5 Q. And he didn't tell you what his source of information was about

6 that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And he didn't tell you -- sorry. And he didn't tell you whether

9 that was merely a rumour or something that he had discovered?

10 A. I don't know where he got that information from.

11 Q. Thank you. Now, to come back to your time in Jabllanice and who

12 was with you, when you were in the room that you have described in the

13 house, at what time do you say you were taken to that room?

14 A. It was afternoon. It was still daylight.

15 Q. Now, you understand what I mean by the room in the house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that is different from the first building that you were taken

18 to on your first night. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. In the room which is situated once you enter the yard on the

20 left side. We stayed there all night, and we were beaten and tortured and

21 we had lost consciousness, me and Nenad. I don't know what time it was

22 when they took us to another room, again on the left side of a room -- of

23 a building with four rooms, and then I don't know what happened to Nenad

24 after that.

25 Q. It may be something to do with the translation but what's just

Page 5325

1 come up on my screen was that you said: "I don't know what time it was

2 when they took us to another room, again on the left side of a building

3 with four rooms, and then I don't know what happened to Nenad after that."

4 Did they take you both to this other room on the left-hand side of

5 the building with four rooms?

6 A. No, only myself. He was not there.

7 Q. And this was after 24 hours; is that your statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you then stayed alone in that room for - was it - two weeks --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- three weeks, three and a half weeks?

12 A. Two weeks, I think, approximately two weeks. I don't know

13 exactly. I couldn't tell day from night because I was shut in the room

14 and I wasn't able to know what time it was, whether it was day-time or

15 night-time. I was locked up and beaten.

16 Q. This is a room that has a window, isn't it?

17 A. Yes, one.

18 Q. And what do you mean by saying you couldn't tell whether it was

19 day or night?

20 A. Because it was barred from -- with some planks, wooden planks. It

21 was boarded with some wooden planks.

22 Q. And is your testimony that you never left that room for any

23 purpose at all during those two weeks?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Does that mean no, you didn't leave the room, or no, you are not

Page 5326

1 saying you didn't leave the room?

2 Let me put the question more clearly. Were you ever taken out of

3 that room during those two weeks, for example, to go to the toilet?

4 A. Once a week, because I wasn't given anything to eat so I

5 couldn't -- I didn't need to go more often.

6 Q. Who took you out of the room to take you to the toilet?

7 A. Some persons there, unknown persons to me.

8 Q. Are you being entirely truthful when you say that you were only

9 taken out once a week to go to the toilet?

10 A. I didn't go out more often because, as I said, I didn't have

11 anything to eat or to drink. I was sick. I often was unconscious.

12 Q. You would agree, wouldn't you, that even if the window was boarded

13 up, it would still be possible to see light through the cracks; correct?

14 A. You could see a little light, but there was another cover, so to

15 say, I don't know, maybe kind of garage which prevented you from seeing

16 clearly.

17 Q. I'm just trying to deal with your statement that: "I couldn't

18 tell day from night," and I'm trying to explore with you whether you are

19 so upset about your experience that you are exaggerating or whether you're

20 lying to this Tribunal. Are you saying that you could not tell whether it

21 was light outside at any time during that period of two weeks?

22 A. You could see some light from a crack but not much to speak of.

23 Q. Did you have a watch?

24 A. I did, but they took it away from me. They took away my watch and

25 my underpants. I was almost naked. My T-shirt and my trousers were torn.

Page 5327

1 They took away my watch -- or better say, they stole it from me and

2 returned it to me after four weeks.

3 Q. Oh, so they did give it back to you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And are you saying that you were never given a drop of water in

6 two weeks?

7 A. They brought us very little water in those glass jars, but not in

8 a proper glass. And I don't know where they fetched the water from. The

9 water was very dirty.

10 Q. [Microphone not activated]

11 You just said: "They brought us very little water ..."

12 My understanding, Witness, is that during those two weeks you were

13 entirely on your own in that room. Am I wrong about that?

14 A. Myself. I mean myself.

15 Q. And, Witness, I'm looking at your first statement to the ICTY

16 investigator that you made in November of 2002, page 5 of the last

17 paragraph of that statement, we read this: "During my detention period I

18 got a piece of bread every day and water to drink."

19 I'm not suggesting, Witness, that that was an ideal diet, but is

20 it right that you got a piece of bread every day and water to drink?

21 A. They brought, but I wasn't able to eat or to drink anything.

22 Q. You also indicated when you gave your statement to Zoran Nikic

23 last year: "Occasionally they gave me salami, bread, beans."

24 Is that true?

25 A. No.

Page 5328

1 Q. Well, you say "no." They never gave you salami or beans?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you think of any reason why the SUP officer to whom you gave

4 that statement last year would suddenly just put that in your statement if

5 it never happened?

6 A. I don't know what they've written there. I gave less details. I

7 don't know what they have written there.

8 Q. Or isn't the truth of it this: That you are exaggerating and

9 distorting what exactly happened in Jabllanice before this Tribunal

10 because you want to hurt my client, Lahi Brahimaj?

11 A. What I'm telling you, sir, is true. What are you asking me about,

12 I don't know, because those persons kidnapped me and did to me what they

13 did. And this is true, but, however, nine years have passed by since that

14 time, and things may be put rather differently sometimes. But the persons

15 who are there are alive and that's why I'm here to testify against them.

16 I'm not here to tell you whether I eat or not eat or beans or bread.

17 Q. Sir, the only --

18 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you don't remember something, just tell

20 us. Nevertheless, you are here to answer all questions put to you. And

21 therefore, the issue now is: Did you get anything to eat and to drink and

22 what did you get to eat and to drink. That is what Mr. Harvey wants to

23 find out, and he has put to you that at another occasion you have given

24 information which was not exactly the same as you gave today; that is,

25 once you talked about getting some bread and water every day, at another

Page 5329

1 moment it's put on paper that you would have said that you got some salami

2 or beans. Now, tell us, it was a period of six weeks, approximately. Was

3 the food in the beginning and the water the same as later? Were there any

4 changes?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They gave us a piece of bread and

6 some marmalade. When I felt a little better to eat and to drink, in the

7 last two weeks it happened that we ate bread and beans. I was with Gani

8 Brahimaj; we were together.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.


11 Q. Well, I'll come on to that in a little while. What I was trying

12 to do with your assistance, Witness 6, was to establish how long you

13 remained alone in that room after Nenad was taken away and before the

14 Bosnian and three Montenegrins arrived. Do you recall how long a time

15 that was, approximately?

16 A. Almost two weeks.

17 Q. [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry. Thank you.

20 Q. And how did you find out that the Bosnian worked at Elektro in

21 Decani? Did you discuss that with him?

22 A. The soldiers told him, You have worked for Serbia in

23 Elektrokosova. I didn't speak with him about that because he spoke almost

24 no Albanian.

25 Q. I think you told us that he did speak some Albanian and you did

Page 5330

1 have some conversation. Was that correct?

2 A. Yes, he talked, but I didn't understand him because he kept mixing

3 up Albanian with Serbian.

4 Q. You also told us that the three Montenegrins, you didn't know them

5 from before. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Does that mean that you actually did know the Bosnian from before?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever find out any of their names?

10 A. No.

11 Q. How many days and nights were you together in the same room?

12 A. Three or four days, not more than that.

13 Q. Did you ever tell any of them your name?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And after three or four days, were they taken away?

16 A. They were taken away and they were not brought there anymore. I

17 don't know where they were taken to.

18 Q. But for those three or four days, you all stayed together the

19 entire time, 24 hours a day, in that room. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And during that time you have said that they were beaten and

22 pierced with knives all over their bodies. Is that correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And who was present when that happened?

25 A. I didn't know them.

Page 5331

1 Q. How many people were involved in that?

2 A. One person had the knife. They came one by one. Someone kicked

3 him with blows, someone gave slaps to him, someone used baseball bats.

4 Q. Can you describe the people who did this?

5 A. I can't describe them to you.

6 Q. I suggest that's because it never happened. You never saw it; it

7 never happened, and you're just making this up, aren't you?

8 A. No, I'm not making it up. Things are as I described them, but

9 these persons I didn't know.

10 Q. All of them were pierced with knives, the Bosnian and the three

11 Montenegrins? Is that your testimony?

12 A. The Bosnian had more of them; the others less.

13 Q. And you were there the entire time, but nobody pierced you with

14 knives?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Because, of course, if they had pierced you with knives we would

17 be able to see your scars, wouldn't we?

18 A. I can show you the wound I have that was caused to me by a

19 baseball bat. I am here. I can show you my wound.

20 Q. We'll come to that. After three or four days, the Bosnian, the

21 three Montenegrins were taken away. And then you told us at some time

22 after that an Albanian Muslim who you describe as fat and in his 40s who

23 came from Zahaq was brought in the trunk of a Mercedes. Is that correct?

24 A. I don't know where he was apprehended. He was from Zahaq and, as

25 I said, they brought him in the trunk of his own car. And this was before

Page 5332

1 I was released, a week or two before I was released, and I had more

2 freedom to move around and I saw it when they got him out of the trunk.

3 Q. So this is in the last two weeks of your presence in Jabllanice.

4 Is that right?

5 A. No, about four weeks.

6 Q. I want to make sure that we understand each other. You're saying

7 that it's about four weeks before you were released or four weeks after

8 you arrived?

9 A. Four weeks after I arrived. At that time I had a little more

10 freedom to go out into the yard, and I saw what happened myself.

11 Q. Did you see the Mercedes arrive?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see him get out of the trunk?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And did -- was he put in the same room in which you were staying,

16 that's the front room on the left of the entrance door?

17 A. No. He was in the right-hand side room. He was in another room.

18 Q. Did you have conversation with him while he was there?

19 A. No.

20 Q. From whom did you learn that he was from Zahaq?

21 A. I had spoken to Pal Krasniqi.

22 Q. How many days in all did the man from Zahaq stay at Jabllanice?

23 A. Two days.

24 Q. When he arrived, could you see what condition he was in?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5333

1 Q. Was he able to stand?

2 A. No. He was lying down on the floor in the room.

3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very sorry to interrupt. I'm just looking at

4 page 49, line 21, where the witness's answer as translated in response to

5 the question: "From whom did you learn that he was from Zahaq?" is

6 recorded as: "I had spoken to Pal Krasniqi."

7 And for the sake of clarification, when the words "had spoken"

8 appear, it would certainly assist my understanding of this witness's

9 testimony to know whether he is there referring to a conversation which

10 had taken place before this man from Zahaq arrived; in other words, had

11 spoken before then, or he means had spoken subsequently to Pal Krasniqi

12 because of certain answers he's given already.

13 MR. HARVEY: I can assure my learned friend that I have no

14 intention of leaving it there. I do intend to come back to it, but I want

15 to take my course with this witness, if I may.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You may. Please proceed.


18 Q. When you said that he was not able to stand, the man from Zahaq,

19 he was lying down in the room on the other side of the front door. Is

20 that right?

21 A. Sometimes I was ordered to give him some water to drink.

22 Q. And at that stage, were you working in the kitchens?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So this is before you started to work in the kitchens that he was

25 brought to Jabllanice. Is that right?

Page 5334

1 A. It was during those days that I had a little more freedom when he

2 was brought in.

3 Q. Just so that we understand the sequence, you were kept, you say,

4 for approximately four weeks before you were allowed some freedom. Is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes. After four weeks, I was a little more free to move.

7 Q. And then was there a time when you were a little more free to move

8 and then a later time when you worked in the kitchens?

9 A. No, I did not work in the kitchen. I just washed up the dishes.

10 Q. Well, some of us might call that work. I'll come back to that.

11 When you said the man from Zahaq was only there for two days, was anybody

12 else brought in during the time when he was there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many other people were brought in?

15 A. Pal Krasniqi and the one from Grabanica. I don't know his name.

16 Q. And were they brought in together, Pal and the one from Grabanica?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Who --

19 A. No, no. At different times.

20 Q. Who came first?

21 A. Pal.

22 Q. And did Pal arrive before the man from Zahaq or after?

23 A. The person from Zahaq came earlier, one day earlier, so one day

24 before Pal.

25 Q. And the man from Grabanice, when did he come in relation to Pal

Page 5335

1 and the man from Zahaq?

2 A. About two or three hours later; I saw him when they brought him.

3 Q. Two or three hours later than Pal or two or three hours later than

4 the man from Zahaq?

5 A. After Pal.

6 Q. Now, you knew Pal from before, didn't you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How did you learn his name?

9 A. When I took bread and water to him, I asked him what his name was

10 and where he was from.

11 Q. And was he in the same room as the man from Zahaq?

12 A. Yes, both of them were beaten up, Pal and the one from Zahaq. The

13 one from Zahaq was beaten up also the day before, and the second day they

14 were both beaten continuously.

15 Q. When you say "continuously," was there a soldier or more than one

16 soldier with them the entire day, on that second day?

17 A. Sometimes there was one at the door, sometimes they did not beat

18 them. But the soldiers would go one after the other, and they beat them;

19 that was their programme.

20 Q. Again, I'd like to understand that. You say: "Sometimes there

21 was one at the door, sometimes they did not beat them." But the soldiers

22 would go one after another.

23 Does that mean there was always a soldier at -- standing guard at

24 the door or somebody, a soldier, in there beating them? And let me give

25 you the third opportunity, the third option, that there was no one

Page 5336

1 there -- that there were times when there was no soldier with them at all?

2 A. There were times when there was no soldier there and the door was

3 locked. There was such occasions.

4 Q. And what about the man from Grabanice, where was he?

5 A. In the same room as Pal and the one from Zahaq.

6 Q. And was the man from Grabanice beaten as well?

7 A. No.

8 Q. [Microphone not activated]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.

11 Q. How do you know?

12 A. Because he was married to someone from Jabllanice, and his wife's

13 family came and intervened and he was not beaten.

14 Q. So he arrived on the second day when the man from Zahaq was there,

15 and although they beat Pal, they didn't touch the man from Grabanice;

16 right?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And you went into that room and saw what condition the man from

19 Zahaq was in; right?

20 A. Only when I took him some water to drink, I could see him.

21 Q. Was he able to drink the water?

22 A. No, I had to give it to him.

23 Q. When you gave it to him, did he drink it with your assistance?

24 A. Sometimes I left the water there, in the jar in the room, and Pal

25 Krasniqi helped him to drink it.

Page 5337

1 Q. When you say "sometimes," that suggests that you went on more than

2 one occasion, certainly, to see him in that room?

3 A. No. Only the times when I had to give him the water or the bread,

4 because I was not in their room. I went up to the door.

5 Q. And you went into the room?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. You told us a moment ago -- when I asked you, "Was he able to

8 drink the water?", you answered, "No, I had to give it to him."

9 Now, did you give him the water or not?

10 A. I left the water inside the room, close to the door, and Pal would

11 take it. And whether they drank it or whether he drank it or not, I don't

12 know.

13 Q. What can you tell us about the physical condition of the man from

14 Zahaq? Was he lying down?

15 A. Yes, lying down.

16 Q. Were his eyes open?

17 A. Closed. He was fat and also swollen because of the beating, so

18 his eyes -- he could not open his eyes. He was all swollen.

19 Q. What part did you see swollen?

20 A. Could you repeat the question, please. Well, physically he was

21 fat and because of the beating, I could not -- I thought that his clothes

22 could not contain his body because of the swelling.

23 Q. Did you actually see him being beaten at any time?

24 A. Yes, when they got him off the trunk of the car, they beat him at

25 that time. Nazmi, Lahi, and the persons that I have already stated in my

Page 5338

1 statement. And after that, when he attempted to escape, he was caught,

2 the person from Zahaq and Pal Krasniqi, they were caught. It was the

3 other one from Grabanice who opened the window and escaped from the

4 window. He was not beaten, so he could escape, he could run, while the

5 two others who were beaten, they could not run at all.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.


9 Q. Now, you you've just told us - and I'll be corrected if I'm

10 wrong - you've just told us for the first time that he was beaten by

11 Nazmi, Lahi, and the persons that I have already stated in my statement.

12 First of all, I put it to you that Lahi was not present when this

13 individual was brought to Jabllanice and that you are, at best, mistaken

14 about that.

15 A. He was there. That's it.

16 Q. And I'm looking at your statement - and again I'll be corrected if

17 I'm wrong - but there is no reference in the statement where you first

18 mention these individuals, when you first mentioned the man from Zahaq,

19 and that is November of 2002. There's no mention of who did the beating.

20 Do you think that you may have been mistaken about that?

21 A. No, I was not mistaken, but maybe the translator forgot to put it

22 in there.

23 Q. Now, in your second statement, which is the first time that you

24 mention the attempted escape, you said this --

25 MR. HARVEY: And, Your Honours, I'm at page 3 of the statement,

Page 5339

1 the 17th and 18th of January, 2003.

2 Q. -- "now," that's the last paragraph on that page.

3 "Now, I also remember that this Albanian," that's the Albanian

4 from Zahaq, "tried to escape from the prison together with the two other

5 prisoners."

6 Is it right, sir, that you didn't remember anything about this

7 supposed escape in your first statement?

8 A. I did not understand you.

9 Q. Is it right that when you first gave a statement to the OTP

10 investigator in November of 2002, you said nothing at all about an

11 attempted escape?

12 A. Maybe I forgot. I did not remember it to mention it at the time.

13 Q. And again I'm looking at your second statement, the one in

14 February of 2003. You said nothing about him being beaten when he arrived

15 in the trunk of the car on that occasion, but I'll come to the question of

16 Pal Krasniqi again, if I may. As Mr. Emmerson pointed out --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey --

18 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'm just trying to find the February 2003 --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that's a mistake, if Your Honours please.

21 I think it's just -- it's in fact quite -- unless -- it's January. It's

22 January, I think.

23 JUDGE ORIE: January of 2003 or February of 2004, yes.

24 MR. HARVEY: I beg your pardon.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I insist on precision, Mr. Harvey.

Page 5340

1 MR. HARVEY: Point taken.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Especially since you are going in so much detail the

3 Chamber wonders whether that -- not to prevent you from going into

4 details, but if you are asking about such details and at the same time are

5 talking about working in the kitchens, where the testimony of the witness

6 was, that he almost, at least in his later time, was with Gani, where he

7 said Gani was a cook. Where he once mentioned a kitchen he was talking

8 about a makeshift kitchen in which he was when the people escaped, or not

9 to say: Was that when you worked in the kitchens is -- is -- well,

10 especially since you insist so much on tiny little details and what was

11 said, et cetera, that, to be very precise as well, and the Chamber

12 wonders -- of course, it's -- it's good now and then to go into the depth

13 and to test the evidence, but sometimes it takes a form which my fellow

14 Judges and I consider not -- not very useful.

15 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I accept that admonishment. I am trying

16 as best I can using the materials we have, not all of which, of course,

17 are within the statements of this witness, to test the --


19 MR. HARVEY: -- extent to which he is both being accurate and --

20 and honest in his --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we do understand. Please proceed.

22 MR. HARVEY: I'm trying not to overdo the detail.

23 Q. Witness, you did say that you had learned -- you had spoken with

24 Pal Krasniqi and it was him -- from him that you had learned that this man

25 came from Zahaq. Now, when did you have that conversation with Pal

Page 5341

1 Krasniqi?

2 A. Before two weeks -- I mean, two weeks before I was released and I

3 was freer to move around. And you asked me about the kitchen. This was

4 not a proper kitchen in a building like this one here. It was in the

5 meadow. It was not a proper kitchen. It was in the meadow, and you could

6 see around for several metres -- thousand metres.

7 Q. Where was it that you had the conversation with Pal Krasniqi,

8 where he told you that the man came from Zahaq?

9 A. In the yard, when he was allowed to go into the yard as well. I

10 asked him where the other person was from and he said, He's from Zahaq,

11 and he didn't know anything else.

12 Q. Was that on Pal's first day or his second day there?

13 A. No. It was after some time when he was able to walk and get out.

14 Q. Was the man from Zahaq still there at that time?

15 A. No. He had been sent to the hospital in Gllogjan of Decane.

16 That's what I heard.

17 Q. And from whom did you hear that?

18 A. I used to talk to Gani Brahimaj. He worked as a cook. He was

19 close to me, and I spoke to him.

20 Q. How far was Gani Brahimaj's house from the barracks where you were

21 staying?

22 A. About 40 or 50 metres.

23 Q. And you went to Gani Brahimaj's house, didn't you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. If you didn't go there, how did you know where it was?

Page 5342

1 A. He told me.

2 Q. Where was the bread baked for the soldiers in the barracks?

3 A. Where the concrete wall is, the white concrete wall is; it used to

4 be covered and there was an oven there, an iron oven, and that's where

5 Gani baked the bread.

6 Q. And you helped him bake the bread, didn't you?

7 A. No, no.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, perhaps just for the witness.

9 Witness 6, the sound you hear is a monthly testing of security

10 devices in the Netherlands, so don't worry about what you hear.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.

12 MR. HARVEY: Not just for the witness, I'm grateful to hear that

13 as well.

14 Q. Witness, how far away was Nazmi Brahimaj's house from the

15 barracks?

16 A. I don't know Jabllanice well. The day I left, I could see

17 properly -- from the place I was in the prison, it could be of about 200,

18 250 metres far. When I went to get the papers and the car but they didn't

19 give me the car.

20 Q. So you went out to -- you went out of the barracks in order to get

21 the papers from Nazmi Brahimaj. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you walked to his house?

24 A. Those documents that they gave me, that they had kept my car for

25 military reasons, that was the last day. And it was that day that I found

Page 5343

1 out where -- how far his house was from the detention place.

2 Q. How did you find his house?

3 A. A soldier came with me.

4 Q. How did you know where Gani's house was?

5 A. That soldier told me, This is where his house and his office is,

6 because I didn't know before that.

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I'm sorry, of what house were you speaking? You

8 were now referring to Gani's house again?

9 MR. HARVEY: Yes, his house --

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Wasn't that addressed before?


12 Q. The house where Gani Brahimaj lived, you knew where that was,

13 didn't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you were able to draw a sketch map for the investigator in

16 2002, November, showing the relationship between the barracks, the Gani

17 Brahimaj house, and the Nazmi Brahimaj house, weren't you?

18 A. They showed me on the computer and then I drew this sketch,

19 indicating the distance.

20 Q. So you had a good recollection of the relationship between those

21 buildings, even some three and a half years after you had left Jabllanice.

22 Is that correct?

23 A. Can you repeat the question, please.

24 Q. You had a good recollection of the relationship between those

25 three buildings, the barracks, Gani's house, Nazmi's house over three

Page 5344

1 years after you had left Jabllanice. Is that correct?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, could the witness first tell us what was

3 shown to him on the computer before we ask further about recollections.

4 Could you tell us, you said: "They showed me on the computer and

5 then I drew this sketch indicating the distance." What exactly did they

6 show you on the computer?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house where I was detained, that

8 prison, and some other houses on a map. But now, if you ask me now, I

9 don't know where these houses are, whether they are still there or

10 destroyed or rebuilt, because I haven't been to Jabllanice ever since, so

11 I don't know it very well.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Did they show you pictures of these houses or did

13 they show you a map?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They showed -- they asked me to draw

15 kind of sketch, to tell them how far these houses were from one another.

16 They asked me, If you go to Jabllanice from Gjakove, I showed them which

17 way to go. On the left side are the houses; the mosque is on the right

18 side, a little bit further.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But did they show you pictures of these houses as

20 well?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. They showed me a picture of

22 Jabllanice, of the entire Jabllanice village.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And by a picture then, do you mean a map or a

24 photograph, or an aerial photograph?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A whole picture of the place called

Page 5345

1 Jabllanice, no sketch. Only houses next to each other as they were, you

2 know.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And was that picture taken from -- from the ground or

4 was it taken from the air, for example, from an aeroplane?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the air.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.

7 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.

10 Madam Registrar, perhaps if we could have 3D010062 on our screens,

11 and then if we can go to the sketch map which should be on the 11th page

12 of that exhibit -- of that document, rather. Looking at the top at

13 U0031392, if we can scroll forward to that. Or perhaps, first of all,

14 since we have this on the screen, I could ask the witness to identify it

15 as his statement?

16 Q. Witness, do you recognise this as being a copy of the statement

17 that you made on the 26th and 28th of November, 2002? You see your name

18 there, you see the date at the bottom.

19 A. I can't remember now because I have made many statements.

20 MR. HARVEY: Madam Registrar, I don't know if we can scroll

21 forward on this. No?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: It's the 11th page onwards from the beginning of

23 the document. I know that ERN numbers aren't supposed to be any guidance,

24 but it's the -- 11 pages in, in to the statement.

25 THE REGISTRAR: My apologies, but here are only ten pages in the

Page 5346

1 system.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have at this moment -- in front of me, I have

3 the original eight pages, and I have an English version which stops,

4 Mr. Harvey, and therefore you refer to the ERN number, stops at --

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I --

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- last three digits, 391, whereas you wanted to take

7 us to --

8 MR. HARVEY: 392.

9 JUDGE ORIE: 302.

10 MR. HARVEY: 392, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got a note, if Your Honours please. I don't

13 know if this is of assistance, I hope I'm not misleading anyone, but that

14 this piece of evidence is 65 ter 777; now, that might be of some

15 assistance, I don't know.

16 MR. HARVEY: I'm very grateful to Mr. Gramsci and we'll see if we

17 can find that with the assistance of Madam Registrar.


19 As a matter of fact, it looks only -- as if all the attachments to

20 the statement are not attached in the computer version. We could work,

21 perhaps, to put the -- if we can't find an electronic version, then

22 perhaps the sketch could be put on the ELMO so that the witness can look

23 at it.

24 MR. HARVEY: That may be the quickest way of dealing with the

25 problem.

Page 5347


2 MR. HARVEY: So I'm grateful to Your Honour for your assistance

3 there. I have an unmarked copy of it. If that could be rotated

4 anti-clockwise, thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That -- this should not be shown to the public. I

6 just -- because it bears ...

7 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful, Your Honour. Yes, thank you. And I

8 understand from Ms. Trapani, in fact, we do have a -- a court number for

9 this document. Just for reference's sake, it's 3D010193. I apologise; I

10 didn't realise that.

11 Q. Anyway, Witness, you see in front of you the sketch plan that you

12 drew on the 28th of November, 2002, and you signed this document; didn't

13 you, sir?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And what does number 1 refer to on that document?

16 A. The place where I was detained for six weeks.

17 Q. And you -- there is something written to the left of that that I

18 can't read. Could you -- can you read that, sir?

19 A. On the left?

20 Q. Yes. On the left -- you've got a box with a 1 in it and then some

21 writing, just to the left of that box, a word that begins with B by the

22 look of it. What is that word?

23 A. It's 3, not B. That box you are asking me is number 3. On the

24 right side is the mosque.

25 Q. Sir, I want you to look, if you would, please, at the left side of

Page 5348

1 the drawing. You see a box with a number 1 in it, and then just above

2 that the number 200. You see that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Now, the box with the number 1 in it has some writing beside it

5 just to the left. Can you tell us what that is? First of all, is it your

6 handwriting?

7 A. Yes, it's "prison."

8 Q. Okay. And then you have the number 200, and then above that

9 another box with a 2 in it and what looks like Ibrahimaj beside that.

10 Does that indicate 200 metres between buildings 1 and 2?

11 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

12 Q. What --

13 A. Maybe it's more than 200 metres or less, but approximately.

14 Q. Does the box in between the 1 and 2 indicate anything, sir?

15 A. I don't know. Maybe that's the house of Gani Brahimaj.

16 Q. And what does the number 3 indicate, sir, on the right-hand side

17 of that drawing?

18 A. It's the mosque.

19 Q. And is that the word that you've written underneath there, the

20 word for mosque?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, the mosque actually wasn't there during the war, was it?

23 A. It was there before the war. It was, but without a minaret. Now

24 I don't know if they have repaired it because I haven't been to Jabllanice

25 ever since. But when I entered there, when they took me to the prison, I

Page 5349

1 saw it. And when I went to the Brahimajs' house to gather papers, I saw

2 it.

3 Q. The reality is, sir, that you were free to walk around that

4 village almost the entire time you were in Jabllanice, weren't you?

5 A. During the two weeks that I mentioned that I had more freedom, I

6 could have escaped but I didn't want to take that chance. I wanted to see

7 what kind of people they were, what kind of integrity and morality they

8 had.

9 Q. You're saying you stayed out of curiosity when you could just have

10 left?

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, the witness actually

12 said I didn't -- two things: I didn't want to take a chance, which

13 carries with it various implications; and secondly, the other reason was

14 he wanted to see what kind of people they were. So that it's twofold.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, similar things would

16 have come into my mind, Mr. Di Fazio, when hearing the question because

17 the suggestion that this is what the witness said is -- is certainly

18 not -- doesn't reflect the whole of his answer. But let's hear what the

19 witness says.

20 Mr. Harvey asked you whether it was curiosity that kept you there,

21 where you could have left the place.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had the chance to leave but I

23 didn't.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But Mr. Harvey asked you whether it was

25 curiosity that made you stay.

Page 5350

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand very well the

2 question, sir.

3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I think the last answer is -- is

4 one: "I had the chance to leave, but I didn't." I am content with that

5 answer and I'm willing to move on.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.


8 Q. Witness, I'm going to make my position clear to you in relation to

9 the injuries that you say you received. I'm suggesting to you that you

10 have exaggerated beyond all reason the stories of beatings, the stories of

11 injuries, and the stories of the length of time that you were detained

12 while you were being investigated at Jabllanice. You understand the

13 suggestion that I am making to you, and I'm going to take you through this

14 in a little bit of detail. But do you understand, first of all, that I am

15 suggesting that you are exaggerating out of all reason and all reality?

16 A. I'm telling you what I experienced. You may say what you want,

17 sir, but I'm telling you what I went through, the injuries and everything

18 I suffered.

19 Q. First of all, you say that, on your arrival at Jabllanice, you

20 were dragged out of the car and you were beaten repeatedly and beaten

21 until they, the soldiers beating you, were exhausted. Do you stand by

22 that?

23 A. They kept changing all the time. They took turns. I was

24 unconscious because of the tortures.

25 Q. You said they beat you with whatever they could lay their hands

Page 5351

1 on, including baseball bats. You stand by that?

2 A. Yes, I do, I do. They used anything they could lay hold -- hands

3 on, baseball bats, sticks, whatever.

4 Q. And this was all on the first night that you arrived there;

5 correct? I'm just dealing with that first night for now. We'll come to

6 the other stuff later.

7 A. Yes, on the first night, yes.

8 Q. And did those beatings continue throughout the night?

9 A. They beat us continuously.

10 Q. I just want to make sure that we all understand correctly. They

11 beat you from your arrival throughout the night until dawn. Is that what

12 you're saying?

13 A. I was unconscious. Sometimes I regained my consciousness,

14 sometimes not, and I can't really tell you because you understand. When

15 you are not aware of what happens to you, you cannot tell for sure. Maybe

16 three days went by. I can't say.

17 Q. Well, you say now that maybe three days went by before you were

18 moved from that first building to the room in the house. Is that what

19 you're seriously suggesting now, sir?

20 A. I'm telling you that I was unconscious and that I cannot tell for

21 sure for how long, whether they beat me in the morning -- until morning or

22 half night. That's why I said three days passed by, and I can't say for

23 sure.

24 Q. You told us yesterday that you were never given any reason for why

25 you were being beaten. Do you stand by that?

Page 5352

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did they never ask you any questions?

3 A. Yes, they did ask questions. They told me, You have stayed in the

4 company of Serbs, because they themselves stayed with Serbs day and night,

5 and they accused me of staying with Serbs. I was a farmer.

6 Q. You were a farmer with a pistol. What were you doing with a

7 pistol?

8 A. Nothing. My father had permission to possess a pistol, then after

9 some years I changed the papers and put it in my name.

10 Q. You were driving a car and you had a pistol on you. When you

11 reached the Serb roadblock, were you searched by the Serb police?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did they ask to see your papers?

14 A. No. They stopped me, saw me - I was with my family - and told me

15 not to go that way, so I turned back.

16 Q. They didn't ask to see your driver's licence?

17 A. No, they didn't.

18 Q. Did you know any of the Serb police officers who stopped you?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And did they tell you to go back because there was a risk of there

21 being a KLA roadblock?

22 A. They told me, You shouldn't go this way with your family. Better

23 go home. It's not good to drive in this area. So I was obliged to go

24 back in the direction of my home.

25 Q. And when you were stopped at the UCK roadblock, you were searched

Page 5353

1 there, weren't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And they found the pistol on you; correct?

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. And you told them that you had a licence for the pistol. Did you

6 show them the licence?

7 A. They took it along with the licence.

8 Q. Why were you carrying a pistol with you in the car?

9 A. I was just carrying it. I had a licence to carry it and I did.

10 Q. Was that a police-issued pistol?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And to whom did the police issue that pistol, reserve policemen?

13 A. When the Albanian police were there, I had a permission, and then

14 I had it also when the Serbian police took over.

15 Q. Did you have a photograph album in your car when you were stopped?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you have any photographs --

18 A. Only of film [Realtime transcript read in error, "Hil"], only of

19 film. Yes, I had a photo with a friend.

20 Q. And the translation we have on the screen is: "Only of Hil." Is

21 Hil the name of the friend?

22 A. What are you saying?

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is a misunderstanding. I think it was only a

24 film. This is what I understood.

25 JUDGE ORIE: That's also what I thought I heard.

Page 5354

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said a film.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

3 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful to Your Honours. Thank you.

4 Q. You had a photograph of yourself with a friend. Was that friend a

5 police officer?

6 A. Yes, he was a retired police officer.

7 Q. You knew quite a lot of police officers, didn't you, Witness 6?

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you got into the Opel Kadett, you found some photographs

10 there, didn't you?

11 A. Of the person whose car was held.

12 Q. And as soon as you saw those photographs, you recognised that

13 person, didn't you, you recognised him as Nenad?

14 A. Yes, his name was Nenad. He was working as a traffic policeman.

15 I could recognise him because, when I went to Gjakove, I had seen him.

16 Q. Well, you had not just seen him, you knew what village he lived

17 in, a little village near Klina; right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. How did you know that he lived in that village?

20 A. The Albanian policeman had told me where he was from.

21 Q. I'm sorry, which Albanian policeman told you that?

22 A. His name is Zokan Kuqi.

23 Q. And when did you have that conversation with Zokan Kuqi?

24 A. I used to have contact with him frequently. He was a commander in

25 our area. Two years before the war started, he retired and he was the one

Page 5355

1 who knew him better. He told me.

2 Q. Is that the one who was in the photograph with you?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

5 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock. At the same time, I would

7 like to seek one clarification.

8 You said you had a photograph with you with a friend, a retired

9 police officer. On that photograph, was that retired police officer

10 portrayed in uniform or in civilian?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Uniform.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 Mr. Harvey, could you give us any further indication at this

14 moment?

15 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, it's difficult. I will spend the next

16 break doing what I can to cut down on the questions. Your Honour will

17 appreciate that this witness speaks to a significant number of victims who

18 are laid at my client's door, and Your Honour, I know, will appreciate

19 that I have been pretty quiet until now. But these are issues that I

20 can't pass over lightly, and I am trying to keep the detail down to a

21 reasonable minimum, and I've cut out quite a bit already, and I will, as I

22 say, attempt to trim as much as I can during the current break.


24 MR. HARVEY: I think, realistically, I'm going to need about

25 another 40 minutes.

Page 5356

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will -- yes, Mr. --

2 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate I've given some thought to the time

3 estimate that I gave to Your Honours before the break, and I -- I think I

4 can shave it down to 25 minutes; it was 40.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That still means that we couldn't finish today unless

6 Mr. --

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will be --

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Guy-Smith, unless you go to the minus eight or the

9 minus ten.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know if I could go down to minus eight,

11 but I probably could go up to plus three.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Harvey -- of course I see Mr. Di Fazio is

13 also on his feet.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm just saying that my re-examination has probably

15 gone from a few minutes now to maybe just a few more minutes, possibly

16 eight minutes or so.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, the Chamber will consider whether the 40

18 minutes you said you would need, whether -- in full respect for the fact

19 that you, until now, have not taken much time with the cross-examination.

20 At the same time, sometimes where you didn't take it, it was on the basis

21 of an understanding among Defence counsel how to divide the time. So

22 therefore, it's acknowledged that you're right, and at the same time I add

23 this footnote to your observation.

24 We'll have a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

Page 5357

1 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, the Chamber invites you to finish in 30

3 minutes.

4 MR. HARVEY: I'll do my best to accept your invitation,

5 Your Honour.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5358











11 Page 5358 redacted. Private session.















Page 5359

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.


25 Q. When you left Jabllanice, Pal was walking around and his health

Page 5360

1 was improving. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And he had the freedom that you had to walk around in the -- the

4 grounds of the barracks. Is that what you've told us?

5 A. Yes, he did.

6 Q. [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Harvey.

8 MR. HARVEY: Sorry.

9 Q. When you met Jabllanice, were there any other people whom you

10 would describe as prisoners still being held in the barracks?

11 A. No, only Pal.

12 Q. And how many soldiers, approximately, stayed in the barracks while

13 you were there, sir?

14 A. I don't know what to tell you about this.

15 Q. Would it be more than 50 or less than 50?

16 A. Two or three of them would come and beat you, and then ten or 15

17 others would come. People were coming and going. They were always on the

18 move. I don't know what to tell you.

19 Q. Different numbers at different times while you were there. What

20 was the largest number that you would say, approximately, you recall being

21 in the barracks at any time while you were there?

22 A. When they would go towards Albania to get weapons, there could be

23 a hundred or 200 of them there that I saw when they came to eat.

24 Q. How did you know they were going to Albania to get weapons?

25 A. They talked amongst each other, and I also asked Gani and he told

Page 5361

1 me that they were going to get weapons.

2 Q. You did tell one of the ICTY -- or one of the Office of the

3 Prosecutor's investigators that -- these words: "I was working in the

4 kitchen, too, during my last two weeks of my imprisonment."

5 Now, first of all, is that correct, that you did say you were

6 working in the kitchen for two weeks?

7 A. I did not work in the kitchen. I washed-up in the meadow outside.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you about how you came to make your first

9 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. How did they get in touch with

10 you or how did you get in touch with them?

11 A. It will be -- it would be a long story to tell you.

12 Q. If it has to be long, it has to be long. Let's try and keep it as

13 short as we can. When was the first approach made, and was it made by you

14 or was it made to you?

15 A. The Albanian police.

16 Q. Who in the Albanian police approached you?

17 A. They came to the house, they broke down the door, and they found

18 some bullets of the gun that the KLA had taken from me, and they were

19 asking me to give them that gun again; I mean the Albanian police. They

20 also had with them Spanish KFOR soldiers. They wanted me to give them the

21 same gun that had been already taken from me. I didn't want to tell them

22 anything, and they still insisted. And I showed them the documents that I

23 had been given, the papers I had been given in Jabllanice, and that's how

24 it all started.

25 Q. When do you say that took place?

Page 5362

1 A. Immediately after the war and also in 2002. I was searched twice.

2 Q. And when were you first asked to go to or to meet with

3 investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor? When were you first

4 asked that?

5 A. They came and asked me, Are you this and that person? And I said,

6 Yes, and I explained the story and we continued.

7 Q. My question, sir, was: When did this happen?

8 A. In 2002.

9 Q. And where did it happen?

10 A. In Prizren.

11 Q. How did you come to be in Prizren?

12 A. I had been called to go and give the statement.

13 Q. Were you called by telephone?

14 A. No, they came to my place and we spoke orally.

15 Q. Who came?

16 A. I don't know them, but they were in UNMIK car or maybe UNHCR.

17 Q. How many of them?

18 A. Only one.

19 Q. And was that the same person who interviewed you in Prizren?

20 A. I don't know his name. I can't remember.

21 Q. I'm not asking you for his name, sir. I'm asking: Is the same

22 person who came to your house the same person who then interviewed you

23 when you went to Prizren?

24 A. No, no, it was another one.

25 Q. How soon after the person came to your house did you go to

Page 5363

1 Prizren?

2 A. About a week later, but I'm not sure. I'm not hundred per cent

3 sure.

4 Q. Did they come to your house to give you a -- to drive you to

5 Prizren or did you have to go there under your own -- in your own car?

6 A. I went by bus.

7 Q. And how many days did you stay in Prizren?

8 A. I did not stay for days. I stayed for two or three hours.

9 Q. And was this the only time you went to Prizren in connection with

10 making a statement?

11 A. I was there about two times.

12 Q. And when you were taken, were you taken into an office to meet the

13 investigator?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And how many people were there in the office while the interview

16 took place?

17 A. Only one.

18 Q. There was you, there was the investigator. Was there an

19 interpreter present?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So that's three people in the room. Anybody else?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When you were being questioned by the investigator, did you -- did

24 the investigator use a computer to take notes?

25 A. I can't remember.

Page 5364

1 Q. You've already told the Trial Chamber this morning that you were

2 shown a picture on a computer. You recall the computer, don't you?

3 A. It was the picture that I signed.

4 Q. My question was: You recall that there was a computer, don't you?

5 A. I can't remember. There was a computer, but I don't know whether

6 they were doing anything.

7 Q. Do you recall if there was a tape recorder?

8 A. No, no, only the interpreter interpreted, and I don't know beyond

9 that.

10 Q. Do you recall if there was a videocamera in the room?

11 A. I don't know. I didn't see any.

12 Q. While you and the -- while you and the investigator were speaking,

13 did the investigator write down any notes on a notepad?

14 A. There was a simple notebook and he was writing in his handwriting.

15 Q. Do you recall on a later date that you went to Pristina to look at

16 some photographs?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You saw photographs in the office of the investigator in Pristina,

19 it was the same investigator, wasn't it?

20 A. I did not have the same person twice.

21 MR. HARVEY: Perhaps we could have 3D010092 on the screen.

22 Q. And while that's coming up, I have a couple more questions for

23 you, Witness. You recall when you went to look at some photographs -

24 whoever the investigator was - you remember seeing photographs, don't you?

25 A. Yes, I did look at photographs. I have to look at them now again,

Page 5365

1 though, because if I don't have them here, I don't know what to tell you

2 about them.

3 Q. I'm just looking to see what you remember for a moment. Do you

4 recall being shown a number of boards or pieces of paper that had eight

5 photographs of different people on them? Do you recall being shown a

6 number of boards that had several photographs on them and being asked to

7 see if you could pick out anybody in those photographs? Do you remember

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What were you told about those boards? We'll call them

11 photo-boards. What did the investigator tell you to do in relation to

12 those photo-boards?

13 A. I recognised the people who were in Jabllanice, the soldiers.

14 Some of them I did not recognise. Whoever I recognised, I pointed at

15 them.

16 Q. Again, sir, my question was quite specific. What did the

17 investigator tell you to do?

18 A. Nothing. Nothing. He didn't order me to do anything.

19 Q. Before he showed you the boards, did he explain what he was going

20 to do?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did he give you any instructions about what you should do if you

23 recognised somebody on the boards?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Now, sir, I want you to cast your mind back. Before that day when

Page 5366

1 you went to see the investigator in Pristina, before then and after your

2 release from Jabllanice, had you ever seen a photograph of Nazmi Brahimaj

3 in between those two times?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Had -- in any of your conversations with any police officer, had

6 you ever been shown photographs of any of the people from Jabllanice?

7 A. Which police?

8 Q. The police in Gjakove, the Serb police.

9 A. No, they didn't. They didn't give me any specifications when I

10 was in Gjakove.

11 Q. Did the UNMIK police ever show you any photographs?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. So apart from the investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor,

14 did anybody ever show you any photographs?

15 A. They asked me whether I knew the persons, if I looked at their

16 photos, and I said yes when I -- some of them I recognised, some of them I

17 didn't.

18 Q. My question, sir, was whether, apart from that investigator, did

19 anybody else ever show you any photographs in relation to Jabllanice?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Okay. When you were shown the photo-boards, do you recall whether

22 you were sitting down at a table or were you standing up or how -- how

23 were you positioned when you looked at them?

24 A. I was sitting. I was sitting.

25 Q. And in relation to where you were sitting, sir, where was the

Page 5367

1 investigator who was giving you the photo-boards?

2 A. He was across of me.

3 Q. So he was sitting on the other side of the table facing you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you asked to mark the photo-boards in any way?

6 A. Can you repeat the question, please.

7 Q. Were you asked to mark the photo-boards in any way?

8 A. They simply -- I was simply asked who -- whether I knew any of

9 them, and, if I did, I put a number.

10 Q. So the investigator said to you, If you know any of them, put a

11 number?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Then, I'm sorry, please explain again what it is the investigator

14 said you should do in relation to those photo-boards.

15 A. They had the numbers there at the end of the photos, and I

16 indicated that this number is a certain person. I mentioned the name.

17 Q. And did the investigator ask you to either put a mark against the

18 photograph or to write your name alongside the photograph?

19 A. I looked at the photographs, and then I signed at the number of

20 the person that I recognised.

21 Q. And when you did that, what did the investigator say, if anything?

22 A. Nothing.

23 Q. Apart from the photo-boards, you were also shown some individual

24 photographs to see if you could recognise people who had been in

25 Jabllanice with you, people, for instance, like Pal Krasniqi.

Page 5368

1 A. I don't remember that.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5369

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16 MR. HARVEY: [Microphone not activated]

17 I would like the witness to be shown, but not on the public

18 screen, 65 ter 787, if we can have that up on the screen, please.

19 Q. Do you remember being shown this photo-board, Witness 6?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. I don't want you to give a name right now, but do you recall

22 identifying number 2 on that photo-board?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And did you say that that was somebody that you had known from

25 your time in school?

Page 5370

1 A. Yeah, that's correct.

2 Q. And did you say that that was somebody --

3 MR. HARVEY: Or perhaps out of caution we should be in private

4 session just for this question.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5371











11 Page 5371 redacted. Private session.















Page 5372

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


7 Q. Witness, it is not challenged that you correctly identified both

8 Nazmi Brahimaj and Lahi Brahimaj on the two separate photo-boards that you

9 were shown with their pictures on them. I wish to make that clear.

10 However, there are a number of points that I need to make to you. Number

11 1, Lahi Brahimaj was not present when -- on the evening when you were

12 brought to Jabllanice the first time, was he?

13 A. I don't recall it.

14 Q. Number 2, Lahi Brahimaj did visit the barracks very occasionally

15 during the six weeks that you were there, but he was not there frequently.

16 A. To me it seemed he was there every day.

17 Q. Number 3, Lahi Brahimaj never once touched you physically while

18 you were in Jabllanice?

19 A. I know he was there.

20 Q. Number 4, Lahi Brahimaj --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's try to have this clarified.

22 The question was -- Mr. Harvey put it to you that Lahi Brahimaj

23 never once touched you physically. And your answer was: "I know he was

24 there," but the question was whether he ever touched you physically.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 5373

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did he --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He did. He maltreated me, he and

3 his brother, continuously.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.


6 Q. And the fourth point I was going to put to you, Witness, is that

7 he was never present on any occasion when anybody else maltreated you?

8 A. I didn't understand your question.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I try to ...

10 Mr. Harvey asked you whether Lahi Brahimaj -- whether -- when --

11 let me just have a look. Lahi Brahimaj, was he ever present when you were

12 maltreated by other persons?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was, he and Nazmija.


15 Q. Witness, you told this Tribunal yesterday -- I'm sorry, on Friday

16 that you had fractures, in the plural, as a result of the beatings that

17 you received. Do you stand by that, more than one fracture?

18 A. What fractures?

19 Q. [Microphone not activated]

20 That's what I'm asking you. Fractures of bones, Witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you guide us, Mr. Harvey, as to the exact --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had one fracture, and I have a

23 scar on my right arm, and I still feel pain to this day. My skin was cut

24 open. I had injuries on my arms, on my legs, everything hurts, my

25 kidneys, my lungs.

Page 5374

1 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, you asked for guidance,

2 unfortunately --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I found it. I found it, meanwhile; that's page 5210,

4 line 8, I take it --

5 MR. HARVEY: I --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I was beaten on my legs, arms, I had fractures on my

7 body, I have bruises on my back."

8 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


11 Q. So, Witness, one fracture or more than one fracture, please?

12 A. One, only one.

13 Q. [Microphone not activated]

14 And when you gave your first statement to the ICTY -- to the OTP

15 investigator on the 26th and 28th of November of 2002, you said this: "I

16 was beaten with a bat on my arms, legs, and on my back very badly and I

17 still have injuries, a small fracture on my right shoulder due to the

18 beating."

19 Is that what you told the investigator?

20 A. Maybe it's translated wrongly. I have my -- I have a wound on my

21 right side, but the fracture on my left side -- left arm.

22 Q. Did you have a small fracture on your right shoulder?

23 A. No, I have only pains.

24 Q. And where do you say you have a fracture? Can you please point to

25 it so we can see where you mean.

Page 5375

1 A. Here, on this part.

2 Q. Pointing to the left lower forearm near the wrist on the outside

3 aspect, towards the outside aspect of the left lower forearm.

4 Do you have any idea how it came to be recorded that you mentioned

5 only a small fracture on your right shoulder and nothing to do with your

6 left forearm?

7 A. The fracture is on my left arm, but the injury is on my left

8 shoulder --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: Right shoulder.

10 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I see the time. I'm very nearly done

11 and I recognise that I have gone over what you have --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have not followed my invitation, and you

13 went even beyond what you indicated before. But before I give you an

14 opportunity to do so, let me -- one second, please.

15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar has inquired into possibilities to

17 finish, and we -- I'm not in a position anymore to ask such things, but I

18 do understand that the teams we need, if we could finish within one hour

19 from now on, that - and I think that should be possible; Mr. Di Fazio, I'm

20 also looking at you - then you would have another three, four minutes to

21 finish, Mr. Harvey, and then we could continue at this moment without a

22 break, but I do of course not know whether any of the other ...

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, I have another hearing

24 that's starting tomorrow. I have an appointment to see my client, which

25 had previously been set for this morning --

Page 5376


2 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and now has been set for this afternoon at 2.30.

3 I must see him --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we try to arrange it in such a way that

5 you are leaving the last 15 minutes and have done and perhaps --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: One would hope.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And that co-counsel could take over those 15 minutes.

8 Yes, Mr. Harvey, I'm really urging you now to finish very quickly.

9 I mean, a lot of discussions about small fractures, and yes, of course,

10 small and big fractures; fracture is a fracture, usually. But please

11 proceed and finish in a couple of minutes.

12 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, it's not the size of the fracture, it's

13 the location and, of course, the accuracy because --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Mr. Harvey, I do understand that,

15 but, of course, you were wise enough not to further inquire into what the

16 witness's knowledge was of the size of the kitchen here, for example.

17 Well, there are -- of course, sometimes people use expressions which

18 shouldn't be taken literally by the meaning.

19 Please proceed.

20 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, you used the expression twice on Friday to describe

22 members or people who joined the KLA, you described them as arrogant. Is

23 that your view generally of people who were in -- who were in the KLA?

24 A. They were such against me.

25 Q. You spoke of your -- when you were asked about your own village

Page 5377

1 and whether your co-villagers supported or opposed the KLA, you

2 said: "Maybe some of the arrogant ones were mobilised." Now, these were

3 not people who were arrogant towards you. This is just a term that you

4 used to describe anybody who joins the KLA, isn't it?

5 A. Only the bad ones I call like that.

6 MR. HARVEY: I'd like if we could have P335 on the screen --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I checked the -- both the sources of

8 arrogance here, and to say that the way in which you put the question was

9 properly reflecting the testimony of the witness last Friday is

10 questionable.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. If Your Honour finds it questionable,

13 certainly in relation to what the witness said of his co-villagers, in my

14 submission, and I quoted that accurately --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Maybe some of the arrogant ones were, yes.

16 MR. HARVEY: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Some, yes. These others were arrogant as well so

18 that does not qualify KLA members, and earlier he said something, his own

19 arrogance compared to the arrogance of others. Please proceed.


21 Q. You see in front of you, Witness, a document that you were given

22 by Nazmi Brahimaj when you left Jabllanice. As you can see, it is signed

23 clearly with his name, and so from the 25th of July onwards you had no

24 difficulty knowing that Nazmi Brahimaj was one of the people in that camp.

25 Isn't that right?

Page 5378

1 A. I don't understand it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to explain it to you. What Mr. Harvey

3 tells you is the following. Looking at this document, where clearly the

4 name of Nazmi Brahimaj appears, you could have known on from the moment

5 that you received this document that the name of the person that issued

6 this document was Nazmi Brahimaj?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you said that you learned about names

9 only later.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. During the last two weeks

11 when I was with Gani Brahimaj and I asked him about names and other things

12 that I was interested in, and he told me.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.


15 Q. You were angry that they held on to your car, weren't you?

16 A. Of course, yes.

17 Q. That car had cost you -- I think you said 30.000 Swiss francs. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. When I bought it, it cost that.

20 Q. Our exchange rates vary, but would that have been about the

21 equivalent of about 45.000 American dollars, do you know, at that time?

22 A. I don't know what the exchange rate is with dollars.

23 Q. So you've described yourself as a poor farmer with a large family.

24 Is that -- well, first of all, do you accept that description, you're not

25 a wealthy man?

Page 5379

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And did you buy that car in Switzerland?

3 A. No, here, in Prizren. My brothers sent me the money. They worked

4 abroad and they sent me the money, and then I bought the car.

5 Q. And you were also angry that the KLA held on to your revolver,

6 weren't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You were worried, weren't you, that if the Serb police inquired

9 where your licenced gun was, you could be in very serious trouble if you

10 had allowed that gun to fall into the hands of the KLA?

11 A. The Serb police did not say anything about it. They did not ask

12 me about it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I gave you a couple of minutes. It's

14 really, now -- it's time for the last two questions.


16 Q. This document and the other one that Nazmi Brahimaj gave you were

17 documents that you specifically asked him for, weren't they?

18 A. No, they gave them to me themselves.

19 Q. Didn't you ask him for a document that you could show to your wife

20 and family and to the police, if need be, to explain where you had been

21 for the last six weeks?

22 A. I don't know. I did not ask for documents. They themselves gave

23 the documents to me. I just asked for the car and the revolver. They

24 also took away my shoes.

25 Q. Are you saying that you walked barefoot from Jabllanice?

Page 5380

1 A. When my father and my wife came towards the end of the detention

2 period, they brought me some clothes, because I was in the same clothes

3 for four weeks.

4 Q. I'm not going to spend time on it, but you did tell us on Friday

5 that: "Nazmi said that to me when he gave those documents to me because I

6 asked him to give me my documents and my wallet." That's right, you asked

7 him to give you your documents and your wallet; right?

8 A. I asked him for the documents, my ID, my driver's licence, my

9 wallet. He did not give me those. He just gave me these two documents.

10 I asked him to give me my car back and he said, No, and then I left. I

11 got those papers and I left.

12 Q. And before you left, you said --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, when I said two questions --

14 MR. HARVEY: This is my last question.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay then.


17 Q. And before you left you said to him that there will be bloodshed

18 because of that car. And what you're doing here today, sir, is carrying

19 out that promise, isn't it, that threat of bloodshed? As far as you're

20 concerned, there is a blood feud between you and the Brahimajs?

21 A. I never owed them anything.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Given Mr. Guy-Smith's difficulties, I'm going to

23 defer to him to cross-examine second, if Your Honour would permit.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

25 Then, Mr. Guy-Smith, it's up to you.

Page 5381

1 Witness 6, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith --

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into --

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- who is counsel for Mr. Balaj.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

6 Q. You were just asked a moment ago --

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


22 Q. With regard to that individual, when you were asked by the

23 investigator if you knew a person by such a name, you said that you did

24 not know the name and that you could never recall having heard it.

25 A. I don't know him. I can't remember.

Page 5382

1 Q. After you told the investigator that, which is the same thing that

2 you're telling us here today, you told the investigator that you had been

3 told that that person might have been a prisoner in the same KLA prison in

4 Jablanica, but that you could not recall his name ever being mentioned;

5 correct?

6 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

7 Q. [Microphone not activated]

8 When you say: "I don't know. I don't remember," is what you're

9 telling us now that you don't remember ever hearing this person's name

10 mentioned?

11 A. I can't remember at all.

12 Q. The investigator also showed you a photograph of the person who

13 we've discussed and asked you whether you'd ever remembered seeing this

14 person in Jablanica, and you responded: "After looking at the photograph

15 carefully, I must state that I do not remember seeing this person, not in

16 Jablanica, nor anyone else." Correct?

17 A. He was not in Jabllanice. I just saw him on the photograph and I

18 knew him from before. I never had any other contact with him. I had

19 never seen him in uniform.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... if we could have 65 ter.

21 You said that: "I just saw him on the photograph and I knew him

22 from before. I never had any other contact with him." You've never seen

23 him in uniform. Did you ever see him out of uniform in Jabllanice?

24 A. No, no, not at all.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Madam Registrar, could we please have 65 ter 00785

Page 5383

1 up on the screen.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what it is. Any need for private

3 session?

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It is a -- it is photo line-up, I believe it's

5 number would be 5.


7 MR. GUY-SMITH: And it would be appended to the gentleman's

8 statement.

9 Q. During the time that you were shown photo-spreads, one of the

10 photo-spreads that you were shown is I believe the one that is in front of

11 you now. During that time you had the following to say about this

12 particular photo-spread.

13 "I've now been handed over photo line-up marked with number 5, and

14 after having a careful look at the photographs, I believe that the person

15 marked with number 3 is called" --

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go into private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

Page 5384

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


3 Q. You continue by stating: "I do not recognise anyone else. I have

4 signed the photo line-up to be attached my statement."

5 Do you stand by that, sir, that the individual that you recognise

6 in that photo line-up is possibly somebody who would be number 3?

7 A. Yes, yes. He is from my village, but now he lives in Gjakove.

8 Q. Thank you very much for your time, sir.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.

11 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to --

12 MR. EMMERSON: I am.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, you'll now be cross-examined by

14 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies, Mr. Emmerson.

16 In my haste I would like that marked for identification and

17 admitted as an exhibit.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is -- and does it need to be under seal

19 from what I --

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I believe so.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it has to be under seal, yes.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D114.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 Madam Registrar.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: And --

Page 5385


2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson --

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And with --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes --

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: And with the Court's indulgence, and I've checked

7 with my client, if I and a couple of members could be excused at this

8 point in time. We do apologise, but I know that my client will be ably

9 represented, and he has no concerns in that regard whatsoever.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

13 Q. Witness 6, I'm going to ask you one or two questions on behalf of

14 Ramush Haradinaj. I know that you've answered a lot of questions today

15 and on Friday, and I'm going to take them, questions that I need to ask

16 you, relatively briefly.

17 First of all, I want, if I may, just to try and clarify some of

18 the dates in the sequence that you've given because on one or two

19 occasions you've given slightly different answers and I want to see if you

20 can help us just to understand which is more likely to be more accurate,

21 if possible. And I appreciate that there may be areas where it's

22 difficult for you to recall; and if that is the position, do please say

23 so.

24 First of all, this morning Mr. Harvey put to you a document

25 recording an interview with the Serb authorities in which it had been

Page 5386

1 recorded that the date of your arrest was the 21st of June of 1998. And,

2 of course, the evidence that you've given to us is that you were arrested

3 or detained, rather, on the 13th of June. And you were asked by

4 Mr. Harvey this morning, page 10, line 10: "Can you explain that

5 mistake?"

6 And you responded: "Well, it's not too far back in time. I don't

7 think giving the wrong date is a big problem."

8 I just wanted to ask you: Which is the right date, the 13th, as

9 you gave in evidence; or the 21st, as was written apparently in the

10 Serbian document?

11 A. The 13th is the right date. It's wrong there in the Jagodine

12 statement.

13 Q. Thank you. Secondly, just to take another milestone in this

14 process that you've described, there was a period of time you've told us

15 when you were given a much greater degree of relative freedom and were

16 able to move about within the compound at Jabllanice. Now, most often

17 when you've described that time in your evidence to the Trial Chamber,

18 you've described it as having occurred about two weeks before the date of

19 your release, but on one or two occasions on the transcript you've

20 described it as having occurred a week and a half before your release. If

21 you can help us now, was it two weeks before your release or a week and a

22 half before your release?

23 A. About a week and a half. That was the time when I had more

24 freedom. That was also the time when my family came to visit me.

25 Q. Going back now to the first period of time then, so the first four

Page 5387

1 and a half weeks that you were detained, I just want to understand one

2 further date within that, if I can, please. You described an occasion

3 when for a short period there were four other people detained in the same

4 room with you, a Bosnian gentleman and three Montenegrins. And again,

5 most often when you've given evidence about that, you estimated that it

6 occurred roughly two weeks after you were first detained. But on one

7 occasion in your testimony you put it much later. You suggested it was

8 three and a half to four weeks after you were detained. Can you help us

9 now as to which is correct, approximately?

10 A. No, no, two weeks after. It's a mistake, because two weeks after

11 I had been there, these people came.

12 Q. And so for the sake of clarity, there's -- allowing for a day or

13 two of error there, that would mean that those individuals were there or

14 arrived there sometime around about the 27th of June, and left there

15 sometime around about the 30th of June. Does that sound right to you?

16 A. I never said any dates.

17 Q. No. I'm working the dates out from the fact that you said they

18 arrived two weeks after you were detained, which would make the 27th of

19 June as the date of their arrival, approximately, would it not?

20 A. They stayed there for about three days with me there, and this was

21 after I had been there for two weeks. So I can't give you the exact

22 dates.

23 Q. The rest of us can do the maths on that. I won't ask you further

24 in relation to that. Apart from those three days then, does it follow

25 that for the four and a half weeks between your arrival and the time when

Page 5388

1 you had greater relative freedom, there was only one person to your

2 knowledge who was being physically detained at Jabllanice; namely,

3 yourself?

4 A. Only the one from Zahaq when they brought him.

5 Q. Yes. But that had occurred after you had a greater degree of

6 relative freedom, four and a half weeks after your detention, didn't it?

7 A. Yes, correct.

8 Q. Well, let me come to that gentleman now in a moment, if I may, the

9 man from Zahaq. You said in your evidence on a number of occasions that

10 he was only there for two days, and I just want to see if I can test that

11 out with you a little bit. Because you told us in answer to questions

12 from Mr. Harvey that he was the first of three men to arrive and you saw

13 him being removed from the boot of a car; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you said that on the next day, the following day, first Pal

16 Krasniqi arrived, and then a few hours later the man from Grabanica

17 arrived. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, correct.

19 Q. And you also told us in your testimony on Friday that after there

20 had been an escape attempt, the man from Zahaq was taken to a hospital,

21 you thought it was in Gllogjan, but he was taken to a hospital and he was

22 taken to the hospital the day after the escape attempt occurred. That was

23 your recollection. Now, I'm just trying to understand how -- how all

24 that --

25 A. Correct.

Page 5389

1 Q. I'm just trying to understand how all that fits into two days.

2 Let's just trace it through, if we can, for a moment. On the first of the

3 days, the man from Zahaq arrives; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. [Microphone not activated]

6 Then on day two, the next day, the other two men arrive. Is that

7 correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And was the escape attempt on the same day that they arrived or

10 was it a day or two after that?

11 A. On the same day, in the afternoon, after they were imprisoned, the

12 third person opened the window and they got out of that window, together

13 with Pal Krasniqi and the one from Zahaq. Both of them were beaten up.

14 They weren't able to open the window. It was the first one that opened

15 the window. That one left, escaped, and the others were caught.

16 Q. Just concentrating on dates, Witness 6, so you don't need to go

17 over again the details of what happened. So the escape attempt was on the

18 same day as the second two men arrived. Is that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. And so, for example, the man from Grabanica was only ever at

21 Jabllanice for a matter of hours between his arrival and his escape. Is

22 that right? Shall I put the question again? Is it --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. And how long after the escape attempt was it, then,

25 that the man from Zahaq ended up being taken off to hospital, as far as

Page 5390

1 you can recall?

2 A. One day after that, after they tried to flee.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I don't know if the

4 answer "yes" in line 24 is an answer, yes, to the first question or the

5 second question; namely, the question of hours or shall I put the question

6 again.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I think it was, in fact, in answer to the first

8 question but I understand why Mr. Di Fazio seeks the clarification.

9 Q. I'm sorry, Witness 6, it's -- I just have to ask you the question

10 I asked you a moment ago because there's a bit of a confusion on the

11 transcript. Does it follow from your evidence, as you recall the event,

12 that the man from Grabanica was only at Jabllanice for a matter of hours

13 between his arrival and his escape, as far as you recall. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. They stayed there for a couple of hours, then through the window

16 they left, the three of them, but he was not beaten, so he was capable of

17 walking and leaving. But the two others were -- remained on the meadow.

18 They were too weak to walk. They were unable to flee with him.

19 Q. And the next day, the man from Zahaq, you think, was taken away to

20 the hospital. Is that right?

21 A. This is what I learned.

22 Q. I was just going to check that with you. You didn't see him being

23 taken away the next day, did you, to the hospital?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So might it, in fact, have been a day or two after that that he

Page 5391

1 went to the hospital?

2 A. I don't know. I didn't see him, but when I took bread to Pal

3 Krasniqi, he wasn't there anymore.

4 Q. And might that have been a day or two after the escape attempt

5 that you've described?

6 A. One day after.

7 Q. And from that point onwards, just so that we have the picture,

8 once again there was only one person in detention; namely, Pal Krasniqi.

9 Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were still not free to leave, but to external appearances you

12 were wandering around the yard and washing the dishes, and so forth. Is

13 that right?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And just one final question on timing before I ask you one or two

16 other matters, just one final question on timing. Do you know how long it

17 was after you got your relative freedom that the man from Zahaq arrived?

18 A. One or two days after that. I can't be very precise.

19 Q. Thank you. What I want to do now is just to put one or two

20 passages to you, Witness 6, from, first of all, the witness statement that

21 you made in February and March 2004. That was the statement that you made

22 when you were shown some photographic line-ups, and you were shown a

23 line-up of photographs that included a photograph of Ramush Haradinaj. I

24 won't bother to pull it up on the screen, but I'm just going to read to

25 you the passage from the witness statement that you have signed and ask

Page 5392

1 you to confirm that it is correct. Having been shown the photograph,

2 which was a line-up including a photograph of Mr. Haradinaj, you said

3 this, and I'm quoting from your statement, paragraph 3: "I can identify

4 Ramush Haradinaj, while has face has become familiar to me after the war

5 from several newspaper articles and television programmes. I did not know

6 him from the time of the war and cannot remember seeing him in the KLA

7 prison in Jablanica."

8 I'll just ask you, please, to confirm that that is a correct

9 statement of your evidence.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Could we please pull up 65 -- could we please pull

13 up 65 ter number 788. And this is a photograph that will need to come up

14 without being shown to the public -- and we ought to go into private

15 session in order to deal with it.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5393











11 Pages 5393-5396 redacted. Private session.















Page 5397

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

4 Mr. Di Fazio.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

6 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

7 Q. You were asked about the gentleman earlier today who was held in

8 custody with you and beaten up, and you said that he was a Bosnian and

9 that he worked for -- I just -- oh, yes. And you were asked by

10 Mr. Harvey: "How did you find out that the Bosnian worked at Elektro in

11 Decani, did you discuss that with him?"

12 And your answer was: "The soldiers told you. You have worked for

13 Serbia in Elektrokosova. I didn't speak with him about that, because he

14 spoke almost no Albanian."

15 Can you shed any more light on that, please? Can you tell us

16 exactly what the soldiers said to that man about his working for Serbia?

17 That's what I want to know. Can you tell us what you overheard?

18 A. While they were beating him up, they were telling him that, You

19 are working for Serbia, you are working in Elektrokosova, and you are

20 interrupting the power-supply, while the KLA were beating him.

21 Q. Thank you. Yes, thank you. And you also said in evidence today

22 in answer to questions from Mr. Harvey this. You -- you were asked: "You

23 told us" -- you were asked:

24 "Q. You told us yesterday you were never given any reason for why

25 you were being beaten. Do you stand by that?"

Page 5398

1 You said -- you answered: "No.

2 "Q. Did they never ask you any questions?"

3 And you answered: "Yes, they did answer questions. They have

4 told me, You have stayed in the company of Serbs because they themselves

5 stayed with Serbs day and night and they accused me of staying with Serbs.

6 I was a farmer."

7 Now, I'm not interested in what you were in reality. I want to

8 know what they were saying to you about you staying in the company of

9 Serbs and who said that to you.

10 A. Lahi and Nazmi; other soldiers as well. They took the goods from

11 Serbia. They took drinks foodstuffs in Peje. Lahi and -- he had their

12 shop, their food shop -- Nazmi, and they accused me of staying with Serbs,

13 while they themselves dealt with the Serbs during the war.

14 Q. Okay. That's maybe what they did, but I want to know what the

15 accusation against you was that was coming, as you say, from Nazmi and

16 Lahi. What does it mean? Explain to the Trial Chamber so they can have

17 an understanding of this. What does the accusation, You are staying with

18 the Serbs, mean or at least how did you understand it?

19 A. It was an accusation made of me, to kill me and to get away my car

20 because, as I said, it was an expensive car which the KLA wanted to take

21 away from me, which they did. It cost 30.000 francs, and they -- because

22 I know that they killed many other persons --

23 Q. Okay --

24 A. -- three people with their wives, they are disappeared to this

25 day.

Page 5399

1 Q. Okay. That might be so, but just concentrate on the question --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, if I could assist you.

3 Witness 6, I think what Mr. Di Fazio would really like to know is,

4 when they said to you that you stayed with the Serbs, that he wants to

5 know whether the allegation was that you socialised with them or that you

6 did business with them or that you supported their armed forces or police

7 forces. What -- how did you understand what was -- what you are blamed

8 for?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. They know. I was a

10 mere farmer and I had nothing to do with them, neither with the police nor

11 with the army. They know why they blamed me for, because they are from

12 Jabllanice; (redacted)

13 JUDGE ORIE: But, just, for example, could it be that where you

14 had a photograph with you and someone, a retired police officer in

15 uniform, would that be the kind of things that would blame you for, or did

16 they give any further specifics, or did they just say you stayed with the

17 Serbs?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of that photo that I was

19 with that other person, they went to kidnap him as well, they went up to

20 his home, but this is a normal thing to have a photo with someone. Now I

21 have a photo with the KFOR Italians. I don't think that is of any

22 importance. It's a sign of goodwill.

23 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.


25 MR. HARVEY: I'm sorry, I only rise to point out we need a

Page 5400

1 redaction at 116, line 12.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- it's already -- yes.

3 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

5 Q. Witness, I'm not asking you if anything that they said about you

6 is true or not. I'm not asking you that and you've told us already, and

7 we've heard you loud and clear. Okay. So I'm not asking you about

8 anything that they said to you is true. What I'm asking is simply this:

9 The -- when it was said to you that you were staying with the Serbs - now,

10 forget if it's true or not, I'm not interested - but what I want to know

11 is: How did you understand that allegation? What is it that you were

12 supposed to be doing? How did you understand that?

13 A. That night when we arrived there, they asked such questions, then

14 they continued to torture me. And then they, the soldiers, came and told

15 me, You are a spy of Serbia. But I was not considered as an Albanian for

16 them, and even now they don't consider me as an Albanian.

17 Q. Okay. And what precisely did they say to you about you being a

18 spy of Serbia? Can you recall any more detail?

19 A. They just said -- they were kind of trying to make fun of me. I

20 don't know why.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I know that there are a few, not many,

22 a few questions from the Bench. How much --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I think that I've gone as far as I need to on this.

24 Thank you.


Page 5401

1 Then ...

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has one or more questions to you.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, may I ask you, the following. In the room

6 where you were detained after the first 24 hours, how much light did you

7 actually have there and for how many hours about on an average day?

8 A. There was no sufficient light there because it was -- the window

9 was boarded up. Through the cracks of the planks you could see little

10 light.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Any electricity or other source of light?

12 A. There was electricity, but no bulb, light-bulb; we were in dark.

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Now, my next question relates to your

14 health. You mentioned problems with your kidneys and lungs, which you had

15 after your release from this detention. Let me ask you this: First, can

16 you briefly describe these problems and how they were caused?

17 A. They were caused when I was in Jabllanice, because before that I

18 didn't have any health problems.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you give a brief description.

20 A. I have body pains all over my body, in my arms, in my legs, in my

21 lungs, in the kidney; everywhere, as I said, I feel pain.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So does this still exist?

23 A. Yes, yes. I take medication.

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions for you.

Page 5402

1 Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for further

2 questions to the witness?

3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, just one point that --

4 JUDGE ORIE: One --

5 MR. HARVEY: -- arises out of what Mr. Di Fazio asked, which was --


7 MR. HARVEY: -- this is the first time the witness has used the

8 word spy and mentioned that he was being accused of being a spy.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

11 Q. The question is this, Witness 6: As you sit here today you are

12 very concerned that people back home in Kosovo should not think of you as

13 a spy for Serbia. Isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, of course, because they think that I was a spy but I was

15 never a spy. I was interested only in my own affairs.

16 Q. And it is partly because of that motivation that you have told

17 lies about Lahi Brahimaj in this court, isn't it?

18 A. I didn't tell any lies. I have facts to prove what I'm saying.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

20 Witness 6, this concludes your evidence in this court. I'd like

21 to thank you for coming to The Hague and to testify; that is, to give

22 answers to the questions put to you by both the parties and the Bench, and

23 I wish you a safe trip home again. If you wait for a second so that the

24 curtains can be down if you leave the courtroom.

25 No, let's wait until we have adjourned, Mr. Usher.

Page 5403

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something to you,

2 Your Honour?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it is not in addition to your evidence and if

4 it's not comments, then say something. But we are a bit in a hurry. Yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question. The tortures I

6 was subjected to, the car I was stolen [as interpreted], what should I do

7 to have compensation for what I went through during the war? Should I

8 address you or somewhere else?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 6, it might be disappointing for you, but at

10 this moment you can't address us on this matter. And if that would be any

11 different, such as we have something in the Rules about return of goods,

12 et cetera, but if that would not be true for the full extent, then you'll

13 hear, but not from this Bench, but others, perhaps the Registrar or the

14 Victims and Witnesses Section may have heard about it, and at least it's

15 on the record now that what you are seeking, among other matters, is that

16 what you consider to be your property to be returned to you. That is

17 clearly understood.

18 So therefore, again, I thank you again.

19 Before we adjourn, one -- Mr. Di Fazio, I haven't heard anything

20 about the medical report anymore, about interpreting that.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- on Friday I asked that the matter be sent

22 immediately and -- to the relevant -- CLSS for translation.


24 MR. DI FAZIO: And further, that the matter be treated with the

25 utmost urgency.

Page 5404


2 MR. DI FAZIO: I know I've seen e-mails to the effect that those

3 instructions were carried out, and I hope it will be ready as soon as

4 possible.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The problem was not the translation but the

6 legibility of the document, so therefore I don't know -- could I just draw

7 the attention. I think I have drawn the attention of the parties to one

8 single line where I said that far more would be legible than it appears on

9 the basis of --

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: I started deciphering already on Friday, ST being

12 status, post being after. I noticed meanwhile that wherever this doctor

13 intends to write an A in clearly recognisable words, it very much looks

14 like an O. So therefore what looks like frokturum might well be

15 frakturum, and the next word then appears is -- reads like ulnoe,

16 u-l-n-o-e, if you take, however, the O to be an A, which we find very

17 often in this handwriting. It's the Latin genitive word for one of the

18 bones in the lower arm. Sinistri means to the left. So I think even

19 without having a lot of experts, I think a bit of common sense and a bit

20 of human experience might lead the parties to some common understanding

21 that this report might give some support to a fracture of the left lower

22 arm, at least one of the bones of that arm. I don't want to discuss it at

23 this moment, but since the thoughts came into my mind, I think for reasons

24 of transparency, it might be good that the parties are aware that these, I

25 would say, almost notorious facts, such as that ulna is the left

Page 5405

1 underarm -- one of the bones of the underarm, that's there on the minds

2 of the Bench.

3 We adjourn until --

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn -- we adjourn until Tuesday, the 5th of

6 June, Courtroom III, 9.00 in the morning, but not until having thanked

7 profoundly interpreters and technicians and transcribers and everyone who

8 assisted us in making it possible to finish this witness today.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

11 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.