1 Thursday, 21 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.11 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Di Fazio, Mr. Dutertre, are you ready to call your --
11 Mr. Dutertre, are you ready to call your next witness?
12 MR. DI FAZIO: We are, if Your Honours please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would that be -- one second, please, Madam
15 Would that be Faton Sefa?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it is.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has been provided with a consolidated
18 witness statement of Faton Sefa and expects, at least that's what we are
19 told, that this consolidated witness statement will be introduced as a
20 Rule 73 ter statement. Now, it may be our printing facilities, but as you
21 know we received these statements rather late so we can't comment on it
22 any earlier. I see that photographs and sketches are inserted in the
23 statement, which seems to be fine, to follow the statement.
24 Mr. Dutertre, if I take you, for example, to what is page 6 in the
25 printed-out hard copy for me, but perhaps first take you to page 5,
1 paragraph 15 reads: "I previously made a sketch of the intake, see annex
2 3, U015-6853."
3 And then it continues what markings were added, A, B, C, D, E, and
4 F. Now, I look at page 6 where the sketch is inserted with the number,
5 and I can't find any A, any B, any C, any D, any E, any F. So, therefore,
6 I asked myself how to understand this document.
7 Mr. Dutertre.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Yes, Your
9 Honour. Those indications, A, B, C, D, E, F are in the original version
10 in Albanian, which was communicated about a week ago, and you also have a
11 translation, but on the translation, indeed, the manuscript signs are not
12 there. So you need to use both versions; the version in Albanian and the
13 English version.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now understand that it's not easy if you have
15 just evening hours to read it to prepare yourself, then to find out that
16 you have to consult the Albanian version. To be quite honest, on the
17 sketch, I have difficulties to see what would be the difference between
18 Albanian and English because it's just a drawing. But if you -- then I
19 also noticed that sometimes on pictures which - but there could be a
20 printing problem as well - in printing they appear very badly. And
21 sometimes numbers cannot be seen anymore, so it is difficult. For
22 example, page 14, I've got no idea that photograph. I may take it that
23 these are the wooden filters, but numbers do not appear. Where usually
24 the numbers appear in the right, top corner, I do not see any trace even
25 of a number there.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the reason why, Your
2 Honour, I understand the problem. I annexed these to the Albanian
3 version, the photographs which are in the text. So because of the
4 problems we have for the printing, it would always be possible to look at
5 the annex to see the document with the proper number. So for this page,
6 number 14, if you look at annex 11 of the Albanian version, you will
7 indeed see an enlargement of this photograph with the ERN numbers.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then I take it that we'll have a better
10 opportunity to look at the annexes when they appear.
11 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
15 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sefa. Before you give evidence in
17 this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a
18 solemn declaration. Perhaps, Madam Usher, I don't know whether the
19 witness speaks any English, but otherwise headphones would -- do you speak
21 THE WITNESS: I speak in English, but I didn't hear you now.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: Excuse me for this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You would prefer to speak and to listen in English
25 rather than in your own language?
1 THE WITNESS: If you accept that, I have a request. For when I
2 say some of the terms, the technical terms, I can say in English, which
3 for you is probably much better and for me it's very easy, very simple.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But you prefer to give your testimony --
5 THE WITNESS: I say it in Albanian.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I invite you to put on your earphones,
7 your headphones.
8 Mr. Sefa, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
10 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
11 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make
12 that solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Sefa. Please be seated.
16 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you are quite fluent in English
18 as well. At the same time, if you would switch during your testimony too
19 quickly from one language to the other, then it might be a problem for the
20 interpreters because then they have to switch with you as well,
21 unannounced, which might make matters rather difficult. So, therefore, I
22 invite you to use one language; and if you use the other language, that
23 is, English, to at least take your time so that the interpreters can
24 switch together with you.
25 Mr. Sefa, you'll first be examined by Mr. Dutertre, who is
1 counsel for the Prosecution.
2 Mr. Dutertre, you may proceed.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution
4 will show the consolidated statement of Mr. Sefa according to 92 ter of
5 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and, therefore, I have prepared a
6 summary of the statement of Mr. Sefa, which I disclosed to the Defence,
7 and I can read it out in the hearing when you deem it will be useful to do
8 so. This statement of Mr. Sefa, following Rule 92 ter is a text signed in
9 Albanian by the witness, and the annexes to this statement, and finally
10 the translation in English.
11 As for these three elements, I request number. I also disclosed
12 yesterday to the Defence and the Chamber an index to the annexes of the
13 statement, describing and giving their an ERN number, pages in the
14 Albanian version and where they are mentioned, as well as the 65 ter
15 number of the exhibits which have been given in January, in order to make
16 things easier for the Chamber. The examination will be rather short with
17 this witness.
18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre, before we continue on the avenue
20 of Rule 92 ter, will there be any objection to the use of 92 ter or to the
21 statement? Mr. Harvey, you're the only one which I have not seen nodding
22 either yes or no. No objection. Okay.
23 Then please proceed, Mr. Dutertre, in the way you suggested.
24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I just
25 wanted to clarify one point. Do you wish me to read the summary of this
1 92 ter after having shown the statement to the witness?
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that what we first need
3 is the attestation -- well, first of all, of course, to verify the
4 personal data of the witness; then to have the witness attest, as required
5 by Rule 92 ter; and then whether you read the summary at that moment or
6 not is -- if it would be better for the understanding of the public to --
7 better for the understanding of the public for the remainder of the
8 testimony, then you could read -- you could read the summary. If not, you
9 could delay it to any other moment. Please proceed.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 WITNESS: FATON SEFA
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sefa. I want to -- for your
15 identity -- I want to check your identity. Your name is Faton Sefa. You
16 are born on 23rd of May, 1954, in Gjakove, and you are Albanian. Is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is your present occupation, Mr. Sefa?
20 A. Unemployed.
21 Q. Mr. Sefa, what was your last employment?
22 A. First, I want to say hi to all of you and to explain briefly one.
23 I started work in Hidrosistemi Radoniqi in 1982. I was a supervisor of
24 the work there. In 1983, we started to fill the Radoniq Lake with water.
25 In 1985, I became the manager for the maintenance of hydro-mechanical
1 equipment. In 2002, I became the technical director of Radoniqi
2 Hidrosistem Company. In August of 2006, I was dismissed from work.
3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sefa. Do you recall, Mr. Sefa, having
4 given a consolidated statement to the court in Albanian language?
5 A. The last consolidated statement, you're asking me is that of 28th
6 and 29th of May? In that case, it's true, I gave such a statement.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Do you recall having signed that statement
8 as well as all of the annexes?
9 A. Yes. I have signed and agree with the content of the statements
10 I've given. I'd like to inform the Trial Chamber that when I first
11 started to give statements, even though initially I didn't know why it was
12 to be used, the purpose was to provide technical information of the
13 functioning of the Radoniqi Lake and things which occurred there.
14 Q. Thank you. That was very clear. The -- you have been given a
15 document. The usher has given you a document to your right-hand side
16 which is the consolidated witness statement, along with the annexes signed
17 on 28th, 29th May 2007.
18 Oh, I'm sorry. I thought it had already been set beside you.
19 Here is a binder which contains the document I've just referred to.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sefa, I'm informed that you have other papers
21 around as well, and the Chamber would very much like to know that if
22 there's anything on your desk which is not provided by the Prosecution,
23 the Chamber - I have no view of your table - we would like to know what it
24 is and whether you have the intend to consult any of these documents.
25 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that these are, perhaps, the personal
2 copies you brought of the same statements. Would you please exclusively
3 consult what you find now in the binder. If you would like to consult
4 anything else, please ask permission to do so.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you recognise -- sorry. There was a microphone problem.
10 Mr. Sefa, do you recognise the document that's in this binder as
11 being the consolidated statement you gave on May 28th, May 29th, 2007,
12 along with the annexes in Albanian language?
13 A. Yes, I do. It's mine.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
16 Q. This consolidated statement with the annexes, do they reflect what
17 you would say if you were asked to testify today before the Chamber?
18 A. While making statements -- I would like to explain it better here.
19 Your Honours, I want you to understand justly my statements. My aim was,
20 as I previously stated, to provide technical information available to us
21 and nothing else other than that. If you allow me, I would like to cite
22 something from Gandhi. It's not a moral right of us to say things as we
23 think they are about facts, reality that speak for itself, and thereof
24 draw conclusions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from what Gandhi said, Mr. Sefa, I would like
1 to know whether the transcript of the statement you just recognised as the
2 one you signed accurately reflects your declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I have stated.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so that's confirmed. And is that also what you
5 would say if you were examined today on the same matters?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am willing to testify here, to go
7 into more details, if you ask me, about the things I have stated in my
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's another matter. The only thing I would like
10 to know is that if the same questions were put to you whether you would
11 give the same answers, apart from whether there were any additional
13 THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]
14 JUDGE ORIE: You are nodding no which is not totally understood by
16 Would you give the same answers to those questions if they were
17 put to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [No verbal response]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I see you nodding yes [Realtime transcript read in
20 error "no"]. Could you please speak out loud because the interpreters
21 cannot interpret your body language.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. I understand.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
24 Perhaps we should first assign numbers to the statements, because
25 I take it that you want to have them admitted into evidence.
1 Mr. Registrar, the consolidated witness statement of Faton Sefa
2 and the attached 28 annexes --
3 THE REGISTRAR: Would be P --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Would be P367, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 Mr. Dutertre, would you have a spare copy of the original so that
8 the Chamber is in a position to use that as well? I just checked. I see
9 that the new -- the index of the annexes with all the new numbers was sent
10 to the Legal Officer yesterday, quarter past 6.00. I missed that -- I
11 mean, I had left the premises already, so that's why I was struggling a
12 bit yesterday evening. If at future occasions there would be a
13 possibility, for example, to send it not later than 4.00 or 5.00, then I
14 have less troubles.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. We
17 will take care for that. I would also like to comment that in the
18 transcript, line 19 on page 10 [as interpreted], I wonder whether there
19 isn't a mistake where you asked -- I wonder whether there isn't a mistake
20 where you asked -- I wonder whether there isn't a mistake where you said:
21 "I see you nodding no," whereas, I believe you mean yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I saw, as a matter of fact, the head of the
23 witness moving initially from left to right rather than up and down, so
24 therefore that's what I interpreted as nodding no, but this has now been
1 When you referred to page 10, line 19, Mr. Dutertre, we were only
2 at page 10, line 17, so a reference to a line still to come was not
3 entirely clear to me.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note, Your Honours, that the
5 Albanians have their own way of saying no and yes when they nod.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's what, as a matter of fact, Judge Hoepfel told
7 me as well, that the nodding horizontally rather than vertically should be
8 understood not in the way we would understand this.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
11 Well, have we given an exhibit number to the summary statement --
12 the consolidated statement and what would that be?
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's just been done. P367 [Realtime
14 transcript read in error "P267"], Mr. Dutertre. I may have not been
15 clear. Was it -- let me just check.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether I misspoke when I intended
18 to refer to P367 because that's what the number is, although it appears on
19 page 11, line 11, as "P267."
20 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
22 At this stage, I would like to read out the summary if there are
23 no objections. That is the 92 ter summary statement which has been sent
24 out yesterday and which is a summary of the consolidated statement given
25 by Mr. Faton Sefa, which is now P367.
1 [In English] "Mr. Faton Sefa gained a university diploma in
2 mechanic engineering in 1977. In 1982, he started working with the
3 Hidrosistemi Radoniqi Company, eventually becoming technical manager. In
4 2006, he left the company.
5 "Hidrosistemi Radoniqi controls and maintains the Lake Radonjic
6 canal. Mr. Sefa was part of a project to create the Lake Radonjic
7 reservoir, which was completed in 1983 and became functional in 1985. It
8 supplied drinking water and irrigation water to the residents of
9 Djakovica/Gjakove and Orahovac/Rahovec.
10 "Mr. Sefa describes how the water-supply system consists of a
11 water intake located in the village Lluka e Eperme, the Lake Radonjic
12 canal which conducts water from the intake in Lluka e Eperme to the
13 north-west side of Lake Radonjic, the Lake Radonjic reservoir itself, an
14 outlet point located at the south-eastern part of Lake Radonjic, and a
15 water-treatment plant and a distribution network.
16 "Mr. Sefa explains how the intake at Lluka e Eperme consists of
17 two gates which, when closed, divert water into the Lake Radonjic canal.
18 A further three pairs of gates control the flow of water at the beginning
19 of the Lake Radonjic canal. However, between 1995 and 2003, these three
20 pairs of gates were kept open so that, in fact, only the first two gates
21 controlled the flow of water.
22 "Before the flow of water reaches the three pairs of gates,
23 however, there are steel protection grilles with five centimetre openings.
24 Thus, any object larger than five centimetres cannot pass through the
25 gates into the Lake Radonjic canal. Mr. Sefa says that the grilles were
1 in place for many years before the conflict started and were still in
2 place and not showing any signs of damage when he revisited the canal in
3 October/November 1999.
4 "Wooden filters were also located after the three pairs of gates,
5 in the direction of the canal, and had been in place for many years before
6 the conflict started.
7 "Mr. Sefa describes how the water was collected throughout the
8 year, except for July and August. He learnt that from May or June 1998,
9 no staff were present at the intake.
10 "Mr. Sefa describes the Lake Radonjic concrete canal, which
11 begins in the village of Upper Lluka and passes by the villages of Lluka e
12 Eperme, Irzniq, and through the village of Kodralija. The concrete canal
13 is seven kilometres in length and the average rate of water-flow is
14 between two to three cubic metres per second. The concrete canal has 42
15 cascades, designed to break the force of the water-flow as it drops some
16 70 metres from start to finish. The force of the water is such, however,
17 that objects dropped into the canal are normally forced down its length.
18 "Daily monitoring of the canal is undertaken and reports of any
19 debris are acted upon and the canal cleaned. This monitoring and cleaning
20 stopped, however, from around June 1998, during the conflict, and did not
21 resume until around June 1999. The KLA had control of this area from
22 March 1998, and it was difficult for the staff of Hidrosistemi Radoniqi to
23 enter the Decani area since the use of company vehicles might attract fire
24 from the KLA.
25 "Normally, the canal was also cleaned annually, but this did not
1 occur in 1998 due to the war.
2 "Mr. Sefa explains that near the village of Irzniq, an area of
3 the canal was overgrown with trees, plants, and bushes, which had grown in
4 soil accumulated in the basin of the canal, and this undergrowth affected
5 the water-flow which was always very slow. This area was not cleaned at
6 all between 1985 and 2002. This overgrowth was an obstacle. Mr. Sefa is
7 not sure whether human bodies could pass through this part of the canal in
9 "When Mr. Sefa visited this area in 2002, he observed extensive
10 vegetation and debris. Some trees appeared to be up to 18 years old. The
11 area was extensively cleaned for the first time in 2002 and seven
12 lorry-loads of debris were removed.
13 "Mr. Sefa states that between the end of the concrete canal and
14 the water's entry into the lake, there is a natural canyon through which
15 the water flows.
16 "Mr. Sefa describes how the lake has a surface area of around 540
17 hectares and is 60 metres at its deepest pointed. Objects cannot float
18 against the water-flow up the canal.
19 "At the outlet from the lake, the water is treated at the
20 water-treatment plant before going into the distribution network.
21 Mr. Sefa explains that, during the war, Serbian forces controlled the
22 southern banks of the lake and that the lake represented a natural border
23 between Serbian and KLA forces. Mr. Sefa performed some work at the
24 outlet during the conflict and under the observation of MUP forces.
25 "Mr. Sefa recalls that Serbian police discovered bodies and human
1 remains at the canal, but did not visit the site. He says that no human
2 remains were found at the canal during the first cleaning after the war in
4 [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've finished the
5 reading of this summary.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dutertre.
7 Mr. Emmerson.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Two very brief comments, if I may. First of all, I
9 forebear from raising the issue of those aspects of this witness's
10 testimony where opinion evidence is expressed without the necessary
11 qualifications, and there are one or two areas where that occurs. That is
12 an issue which Your Honour's indicated in the past is a matter that can be
13 dealt with separately by way of submission. I therefore don't take issue
14 at this stage.
15 Secondly, though, simply for the sake of accuracy, the summary
16 that has just been read out contains, at paragraph 9, the suggestion that
17 this witness's statement involves an assertion of KLA control of the canal
18 from March 1998. And Your Honours will have seen from paragraph 82 of the
19 witness statement that the witness was able to give certain positions of
20 Serb troops in the area around the lake, but specifically indicated
21 regarding Irzniq and up to Lluka e Eperme, that he did not know during the
22 relevant period who was or which side was in control of those areas.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, would you agree with Mr. Emmerson?
24 Would you not agree?
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I sent in this
1 document last evening, and, indeed, I will submit to any of the comments
2 made by the Defence. As regards the comments regarding paragraph 82,
3 indeed, that paragraph refers to Irzniq and the intake at Lluka e Eperme,
4 and the text states that the witness does not know exactly who controlled,
5 who was in charge, of those towns, but there's no precise date mentioned;
6 whereas, there is a reference to annex 26 with a diagram, which does
7 indicate the positions of the Serb forces in the region, which makes it
8 possible to understand both the consolidated statement, the resume given
9 by the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think the point is that pointing at certain
11 positions held by whatever party in itself does not yet allow for
12 conclusions as who was in control.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I think I can -- if I may --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's -- and apart from that --
15 MR. EMMERSON: If I may say --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's not the evidence. The evidence is in the
18 MR. EMMERSON: An assertion of a positive is not an assertion at
19 the absence of a negative, given that the witness himself has said that an
20 area is not marked on his map. He is unaware of who is in control.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, keeping in mind the
22 function that it should give as good as possible to the public an
23 impression of what to find in the statement that the matter has been
24 sufficiently dealt with.
25 Meanwhile, Mr. Dutertre, I now have in front of me the original
1 version. You earlier said, Look at the original version and you'll find
2 the explanations. May I take you to paragraph 15, for example. In the
3 original, it says: "I previously made a sketch of the intake, see annex
4 3. On this sketch inserted below, I added the following markings ..."
5 Now, I noticed that annex 3, the number has been changed for
6 whatever reason. The number U0156853 has been stricken out. It is now
7 annex B. Then in the text of the statement itself, where this is
8 inserted, the number is taken out with some red pen. I do not know why
9 the number is taken out and replaced by either initials or another number,
10 42. That's unclear to me. Therefore, the annex 3 seems not to be exactly
11 the same as what we find annotated in the statement itself.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The witness gave a first
15 testimony -- well, there was several. There was one where he made the
16 sketch, he drew the sketch, that is included in annex 3 which at the time
17 was called annex B of that first hearing, that first testimony --
18 statement. And the number was U0156853. That was annexed to the
19 consolidated statement and the entire statement was modified, and,
20 therefore, that's why that number was crossed out and replaced by another
21 number. And that is why we gave you the index which enables you to
22 cross-reference these documents.
23 As regards the A, B, C, D, E, and F, these letters are to be found
24 on the sketch, as you will find it in the Albanian version so that you
25 have the sketch from the previous statement which is included in the annex
1 with a changed ERN number; and under paragraph 15, you have the same
2 sketch with additional markings made by the witness for the purposes of
3 the consolidated statement.
4 I hope I was clear, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now I understand that the stricken-out number,
6 therefore, now is replaced by the new number on the top of annex 3, last
7 two digits 87.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, that's true. Exactly. The
9 same applies to all of the annexes. The ERN numbers have been crossed
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now see that. And now the -- so we have now
12 two follow-up versions of U0156853. That is the one which has now
13 become -- which used to be annex B but is now annex 3 with a new ERN
14 number 87; and inserted in the statement, we find the original U0156853,
15 but now with the markings made. So, as a matter of fact, we find part of
16 the sketches, exhibits, as annexes and other versions with markings as
17 part of the statement itself.
18 Now, it's slowly clear to me.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, that's exactly correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 THE WITNESS: For your -- probably for your much better to
24 understand that. In your -- in annex 27 ...
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 27 -- [In English] In annex 27,
2 you have exactly -- you have exactly description when there was Serbian
3 forces. I make --
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's a matter which is purely of a procedural
5 nature, and there's no need at this moment to come back to that. The
6 only -- one of the things you don't have to bother about is how the
7 summary of your statement was drafted. Your statement in this respect
8 seems to be perfectly clear. It's just how it is brought to the public
9 that was of some concern, not the statement itself.
10 Mr. Dutertre, please proceed.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. To
12 come back to the issue of who was controlling the area, if you look at
13 paragraph 45, there is mention of that. But for your information and for
14 reference, control as of March 1998 was not something that was discussed
15 here. In fact, as regards the remainder, I have very few questions for
16 the witness because we have admitted the statement under Article 73 ter;
17 and for reasons of timing that we're all familiar with, I would simply
18 like to put one question to the witness, which is as follows.
19 Q. Mr. Sefa, you have indicated that the various intakes, the gates
20 and the canal and the lake and then the water-treatment plant, this whole
21 system was aimed at providing irrigation and also providing drinking water
22 to the inhabitants of the region.
23 Could you tell us exactly which towns received drinking water from
24 this system; that is, the water that came from the Bistrica River.
25 A. If you look at the annex 27, there is a map, 0163281. In that map
1 I have shown where the military and police forces had been stationed, I
2 mean the Yugoslav military and police forces. The question why I did not
3 say where the KLA forces were or whether there were any KLA forces,
4 that --
5 Q. [No interpretation] --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question is --
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's clear to me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- not to further respond on the matter, but just to
9 tell the Court what towns received drinking water from this system.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to come to that. I just
11 wanted to explain first how I knew that there were Serb forces in the
12 area, because we went to those areas to check whether there was water
13 supplied to the areas or not.
14 Then Bitesh, Dubrica, Novo Sello, Ferija - these are the places
15 that received water - Palabardhi, Supoti, Janosh, Cermjan, Netici, Beci.
16 And if you are interested only in the area around the lake, these are the
17 villages around the lake, but there are 72 villages all in all that are
18 supplied with water from this system.
19 Because we went to these areas to see whether water was supplied
20 or not or whether there was an explosion or not, I could see the Serb
21 forces and I had information that there were military and police forces in
22 the area.
23 Q. Mr. Sefa, was the town of Gjakove provided with drinking water
24 through this irrigation system coming from Bistrica, the water having been
25 treated at the south-eastern corner of the lake, the Radonjic Lake?
1 A. The hydro system worked during all the time, before the war and
2 after the war, with the exception of three days when NATO bombed and there
3 was damage to the system. This was in May 1999 when there was not any
4 supply for three days.
5 Q. But, in fact, my question was more precise than that. Was the
6 city of Gjakove -- did the city of Gjakove receive water from the
7 water-treatment plant and does it still receive water; that is, from the
8 south-eastern corner of the lake which was part of the entire water
9 system, the Hidrosistemi?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I would have, perhaps, a very small question.
14 Mr. Sefa, we previously were provided with maps in this case where
15 apparently a river appears, which might be the same river as Bistrica
16 river, but which is called Decanska Bistrica. Is that the same? Because
17 in the Albanian original, the name of the river is the different from
18 what we see on this map, although logic tells me that, most likely, it is
19 the same.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Decanska Bistrica is a Serb word or
21 term. It's the same river, though.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. I thought "Decanska" might
23 stand for something related to Decan.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because it passes by Decan.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So where in Albanian it says "River Bishtrica,"
1 in the Serb language it says something like "Decana Bistrica"?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are several rivers that are
3 called Bishtrica. In Albanian, the real word in Albanian is Lumi i
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that even further complicates it, but it is the
6 same river, as far as I understand. That was most important to me.
7 Which Defence counsel will be first to cross-examine the witness?
8 MR. EMMERSON: That's my responsibility.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for
11 Mr. Haradinaj.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
13 Q. Mr. Sefa, may I start, please, by asking you some questions to
14 clarify your own movements during 1998 and thereafter. Now, first of all,
15 did you personally have any responsibilities at the Lake Radoniq area
16 itself between the beginning of 1998 and September 1998?
17 A. In the beginning of 1998, we were ordered to take care of the
18 maintenance of the mechanical equipment. I was responsible for that, and
19 it's also written in the statement. It's in point 44, paragraph 44, it
20 says there who was responsible for the canal.
21 Q. Yes. What I'm trying to understand, Mr. Sefa, is your own
22 physical movements during the period of 1998, where it was you personally
23 went, how often you visited the different parts of the water system
24 between Lluka e Eperme and the lake itself. So if we can start with the
25 lake itself, did you personally visit the Lake Radoniq area itself during
2 A. I went to Lluka e Eperme in March 1998. I did not go to the
3 precise intake point area until 1999. May I continue?
4 Q. Well, I'm happy for you to start at the other end of the water
5 system if you want, but let's be systematic about it. Did you personally
6 ever visit the water intake system, that is to say, I'll call it the dam
7 at Lluka e Eperme, at any time during 1998?
8 A. In February/March 1998.
9 Q. Because just a moment ago, I thought you said you didn't go to the
10 precise intake point until 1999. Are we speaking at cross-purposes here?
11 A. No. I went to the intake point once in 1998, and you have that in
12 my statement, but I -- this was in February/March 1998. Later I did not
13 go. I was supposed to go in August 1998 in order to stop the water when
14 there was talk about some bodies,; but at that time, we went to a local
15 Serb and he went there to stop the water. So myself and my colleague,
16 when we went there, we told him, "It's good that we don't need to go and
17 stop the water ourselves." So we went to Decan, but we did not go to the
18 precise point, intake point.
19 Q. Mr. Sefa, I've got quite a lot of questions for you, so if you
20 could try to focus your answers as much as possible to the question. I've
21 understood your evidence to be one visit to the dam at Lluka e Eperme
22 during 1998, and that visit took place in February or March. Is that
23 correct, yes or no?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. February --
2 Q. Thank you --
3 A. -- or March, I don't know for sure.
4 Q. Now, you've just mentioned an occasion in August when you thought
5 you might have to go and change the flow of the water, to stop the water,
6 but in fact a local Serb went there. Just so that we're clear and there's
7 no confusion about that, the incident that you're there referring to is an
8 incident that took place in September, on or about the 9th of September to
9 be precise, during the Serbian investigation of a series of bodies that
10 were recorded as having been found in the canal area. Is that correct?
11 A. I'm sorry. I can't remember the date, but the exact thing is that
12 we did not go on that occasion.
13 Q. I just wanted to be clear that it wasn't in August.
14 So that deals with Lluka e Eperme. During 1998 now, focusing on
15 that year, did you yourself at any point visit any section of the canal at
16 any point between Lluka e Eperme and the lake?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Third question then in the sequence of the water system. Did you
19 yourself visit the lake during 1998?
20 A. In 1998, the dam part of the lake, yes, the southern part of the
22 Q. Again, just to avoid confusion, when you refer to the dam part,
23 you're not referring to Lluka e Eperme, but to the dam at the southern end
24 of the lake. Is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Thank you. So when was the first time after 1998 that you ever
2 personally visited any section of the canal?
3 A. I can't remember the exact date. I think it is in my statement.
4 It could have been October, November, December 1999; however, it is in my
5 statement. We visited only the Lluka e Eperme area.
6 Q. I see. So as far as you can recall - let's just be as clear as we
7 can - as far as you can now, recall the next time you visited any section
8 of the canal would have been after the war was over?
9 A. The rest of the canal I visited after the war ended.
10 Q. Yes. Now, I'm sorry, because there's again, I'm afraid, some
11 confusion in your answer. You've told us that some time around October,
12 November, or December 1999, you visited only the Lluka e Eperme area. So
13 let's just deal with that. Was that the first part of the canal that you
14 visited in 1999?
15 A. These things are written in my statement, and I wanted to explain.
16 We are speaking about a canal that is seven kilometres long, and I visited
17 the entry part, the intake part, of the canal.
18 Q. That's very helpful, Mr. Sefa. If you could just listen to the
19 question, because otherwise we're going to take a lot of time on
20 unnecessary information. So just listen very carefully to the question.
21 The next time that you visited any section of the canal you've
22 told us, is this correct, was after the war, when you went to the dam at
23 Lluka e Eperme. Is that right? Just yes or no.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. And was it at some point after that visit that you
1 first visited any section of the canal between the dam and the lake?
2 A. In the year 2001, I can't remember exactly when, we visited the
3 last part of the canal.
4 Q. Yes. That -- and when you say "the last part," what do you mean
5 by that?
6 A. I wanted to explain something here. We call canal the part that
7 is concrete; the rest of it is a canyon. There is erosion there and the
8 water-flow is very rapid. There is silt and sediment in the area because
9 of the energy of the water.
10 Q. Thank you. So that we're clear, are you saying that in 2001, you
11 visited the area where the concrete section ends and the natural canyon
12 begins? Is that what you're telling us?
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. Thank you. And can you remember whether you visited any other
15 part of the canal at any time in 2001?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Thank you. And the first time you ever went to the area in the
18 canal around Irzniq was in 2002. Is that right?
19 MR. EMMERSON: Please, the witness can answer I think.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said "the first time," and you
21 mean by this before the war or after the war?
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. The first time since the war began.
24 A. Well, this was after the war anyway.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre, you were on your feet. You
1 didn't raise any objection against the question at that moment, so I was a
2 bit uncertain about what you had in mind.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] No. I didn't want to interrupt my
4 colleague. Just a point of clarification on the question which was asked
5 at the line 13: [In English]
6 "And can you remember whether you visited any other part of the
7 canal at any time in 2001?"
8 [Interpretation] The answer is no.
9 [French on English channel]
10 [Interpretation] It's just a clarification I was seeking. Thank
12 MR. EMMERSON: I understand the point. I'll deal with it.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: And thank you for raising it.
15 Q. Just to be absolutely clear, I sorry to ask you the same question
16 again, Mr. Sefa. But just to be absolutely clear, during 2001 you've told
17 us that in the back end of the year, you visited the dam at Lluka e
18 Eperme; and I then asked you whether you could remember if you visited any
19 other part of the canal in 2001, and you said no. And what Mr. Dutertre
20 is asking is did you mean, "No, I can't remember," or did you mean, "No, I
21 did not visit any other part of the canal in 2001?"
22 A. In 2001, I went to visit the last part of the canal and the first
23 part of the canal, but not the part that you mentioned in Irzniq.
24 Q. I see. So if we can get your testimony absolutely clear. In
25 2001, you visited two parts of the canal: The dam at Lluka e Eperme and
1 the area where the concrete section of the canal stops and the natural
2 canyon begins. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were both of those visits after the war had ended?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So were these both in the autumn period?
7 A. I can't remember exactly.
8 Q. Very well. And then just to return to the area adjacent to
9 Irzniq, or Rznic, rather, your first visit to that area, after the war had
10 begun, was in 2002, was it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Just to be clear, I think you tell us, in your statement, you
13 hadn't been to that area at any time for the decade between 1992 and 2002.
14 Is that right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And just before we take a break, can I be clear, when you went
17 there in 2002, to that area adjacent to Irzniq, was there a recovery or
18 cleaning operation then taking place when you arrived?
19 A. During this period, the Radoniqi company was managed by
20 internationals, and they ordered to clean the area.
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. And during that time, they had the responsibility for anything
23 that was done there. They commissioned a firm to do the job, and they
24 also supervised the works.
25 Q. Okay. That doesn't answer my question, but may I just ask a
1 supplementary question in relation to your answer and then come back to
2 the question I asked you. What was the name of the independent
3 contractor, the independent company, that they employed?
4 A. Fidani-l.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Can I ask you, did the Clevery Consulting
6 company have anything to do with that operation or not?
7 A. What firm? Could you repeat that?
8 Q. Clevery Consulting Limited, nothing to do with that operation?
9 A. The first time I hear this name.
10 Q. That's helpful. When you arrived in 2002 to that area, was the
11 cleaning-up operation already underway at the time that you got there?
12 A. It had already started, but it had not finished yet.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. [In English] You're welcome.
15 Q. So some of the debris had been removed, but some was still there?
16 A. [Interpretation] Exactly.
17 Q. And, finally, can I just ask you to confirm this. Are you aware
18 that after the war had ended, as people in the villages were
19 reconstructing their houses, many used the canal as a dumping-ground for
20 silt and debris from the reconstruction process?
21 A. That's true, yes.
22 Q. And so the essential position is this, I think you can confirm,
23 you are not in a position to help us at all about the state of any bushes
24 or trees in the canal at that area close to Irzniq during 1998?
25 A. Well, frankly, I can't say whether it was like this or like that.
1 Q. Yes, yes. Thank you.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Would that be a convenient moment for a break?
3 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Emmerson.
4 We will have a break, Mr. Sefa, and we'll resume at 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
9 Q. Mr. Sefa, could we have a look, please, at annex 27 to your
10 witness statement, which you were going to give an explanation for a
11 little earlier. Do you have that in front of you?
12 A. [In English] Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. I want to does you some questions just to establish
14 what you do and don't know exactly about Serbian deployments in the canal
15 area at both ends. Now, you've said in your statement, at paragraph 82,
16 that as regards Irzniq, you don't know who was in control of Irzniq at any
17 given time, so I'm not going to ask you questions about that section of
18 the canal.
19 But can I ask you just to look at annex 27 for a moment, and
20 you've drawn there a series of crosses with the word "Serb" at the bottom.
21 So do we understand it to be your recollection that there were Serb forces
22 deployed in the area which you have marked those crosses as appearing in?
23 A. [Interpretation] I already explained it to you, but I'm repeating
24 it, that every cross indicates the position of the Serb police and
25 military forces. Because I couldn't have access to that place, I didn't
1 mark the locations of the KLA because I had no information on that. What
2 I know was based on hearsay. I didn't have anything to do with them until
3 then, that's why I don't know anything about that. I'm not sure about
4 Irzniq either, where they were, how many there were, and so on. This I've
5 stated in my statement.
6 Q. I'm grateful for that clarification because there are aspects of
7 some of the language in your statement which may suggest that you were
8 clear that there was a front line, as it's described I think at one point,
9 between the KLA and the Serbs at the northern end of the lake. And if
10 what you're telling us now is that you don't know exactly where the KLA
11 forces were deploying or what areas of territory they were controlling at
12 any one time, then the term "front line" may be a bit of a misnomer.
13 Would you agree?
14 A. It happened often for me to go and intervene in the course of work
15 in the dam at Radoniq Lake where the water treatment is made at the
16 southern part, and from there I could see large artillery forces with all
17 sorts of equipment, tanks, and so on. And when we happened to go to
18 nearby villages, they fired from the hill of Tesh [as interpreted].
19 That's why I couldn't go any further than that. It was an unpleasant
20 situation and we were afraid that they might kill us, hearing that we
21 were couriers of the KLA. That's why we were afraid to go, to venture any
23 Q. The transcript is recorded as you referring to "the hill of Tesh."
24 Can I --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Bitesh.
1 MR. EMMERSON:
2 Q. Suka Bitesh, that is the elevated position sometimes called Suka
3 Radonjic in Serbian. Is that right?
4 A. Suka Radoniqit is another from Suka Bitesh. By the word "Suke,"
5 we referred to the top of the hill. [In English] It's the same.
6 Q. And were you able to see the Serb police or military deployed at
7 ground level, as well, during your visits?
8 A. Yes, we did, because we had to go there among them. I was obliged
9 to work in their vicinity, and I could see them with my own eyes. To this
10 day you could see traces of the previous fortifications or trenches.
11 Q. And do you know if they were --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, if I may.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Until now, the Suka Bitesh and Suka Radoniq have been
15 at least described as identical --
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- So the answer the witness just gave certainly
18 needs further --
19 MR. EMMERSON: I was going to use his plan, if I may, just to --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. EMMERSON: -- establish what he was referring to by Suka
22 Bitesh. May I just pursue the last answer for just a moment or two.
23 Q. Were you able to tell, during your visits, whether the troops that
24 were deployed on the ground were patrolling the area?
25 A. Once I remember that we went to Bitesh hill and they didn't allow
1 us to proceed further. And when we descended the hill, we saw them firing
2 from Biteshi hill. I can't say for sure whether they were deployed at the
3 foot of the hill, but on the top, yes, there were police and military
5 Q. Just so that we're clear, the question I'm asking you - and if you
6 can't help us one way or the other, then that's perfectly understandable
7 because you were visiting from time to time - but I simply want to know
8 whether during your visits, you ever observed Serb MUP units or military
9 units moving only the ground; that is, not on the hill, but deployed,
10 patrolling on the ground, coming and going?
11 A. I saw only from Gjakove and Osikhila, which is a village in the
12 direction of Gjakove, Decan. It's the first village when you leave on the
13 way from Peje to Gjakove. There I saw a large number of people. There
14 was a large convoy with over 40 vehicles, armoured vehicles.
15 Q. Can we take it this -- put it this way and see if you agree with
16 this proposition. From what you yourself observed, from your own
17 observations, you don't know one way or the other whether the Serb troops
18 were penetrating north on the ground from time to time towards the canal
20 A. I'm sorry. But if you refer to the map, a military map, you can
21 see that the lake is at the quota of 456 above the sea level. They were
22 stationed at an elevation which was 500, 550 metres above the sea level,
23 which gives you the idea that from that elevation you can have an
24 overlooking view of the entire territory around the lake. Since we
25 visited that place, you may understand that we see the position or the
1 positions they were firing from.
2 Q. Yes, I do understand.
3 A. This is what I can say about that question.
4 Q. Can we just look at your map, annex 27. The ring -- or the line
5 of crosses, if we look at the upper-most cross on the map on the left-hand
6 side, immediately adjacent to that is a circle by the shore of the lake
7 with the word "Bitesh" written beneath it. What is that representing?
8 A. This is Suka e Biteshit.
9 Q. Thank you. So you are saying from this map, are you, that there
10 were Serb forces on Suka Bitesh itself?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And across to the left of that, what does that tell us on your
14 A. On the left, there is Suka e Baballoqit. It is a hill over Hereq,
15 where there used to be a colony of Serbs and Montenegrins who, in order to
16 be protected, were helped by some Serbian forces. We saw the smoke coming
17 out of the artillery explosions.
18 Q. Fine. And that's what the cross to the left on your map is
19 intended to indicate? Can you just have a look at the map, Mr. Sefa,
20 while you're answering the question because there seems to be a circle
21 immediately above that cross, another circle, and I wonder what that
22 circle indicated.
23 A. By this I wanted to indicate that Baballoq is located there, the
24 village of Baballoq --
25 Q. I see --
1 A. -- and that this is the road Gjakove-Decan and approximately the
2 place where they were deployed.
3 Q. Thank you very much for that. Again, help us -- sorry. Did you
4 want to add something?
5 A. [In English] If you give me the chance.
6 Q. Sorry, please.
7 A. [Interpretation] Suka Cermjan is higher than the other two, Bitesh
8 and Radoniq hills. They are adjacent to one another, but they are higher.
9 And from this position, if you look at the right side of the lake, there
10 are no forces, at least I didn't know that there were forces belonging
11 either to the Serbs or to the KLA because it's a terrain you can see
12 clearly from that point. For the upper part, in the direction of Ratishe,
13 I couldn't see anything because I didn't have any instruments to observe
15 Q. That's very helpful. So that you know, Mr. Sefa, we've heard
16 testimony in this court to the effect that not only were Serb forces
17 stationed on Suka Cermjan but that there were military engagements between
18 the KLA and the Serbs around Suka Cermjan.
19 So that we understand your testimony, are you saying you know
20 positively that there were not or merely that you never, yourself,
21 observed them; or you don't know one way or the other; or what is it
22 you're trying to tell us about Suka Cermjan?
23 A. If you look at the map, there's another map that corresponds to
24 this. It's a topographical map. You can see between Suke of Cermjan and
25 Radoniq, there is a road that leads to remote villages in the direction of
1 Rakoc. Since there were Serb forces deployed there on the other side,
2 where there is now an Italian airport, you can have a look at the entire
3 zone because it is of a higher position. So from there we could observe
4 the fighting.
5 Q. Let me put the question to you another way, Mr. Sefa. How many
6 times during the period from March to September 1998 did you personally go
7 to the lake?
8 A. From March to September 1998, on this part of the lake, I went
9 almost every two or three days, at least two times every week.
10 Q. And which part of the lake are you there referring to?
11 A. I meant the part where I have indicated the crosses, where I put
12 the crosses, where we went at least once a week.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Can you help us about this, and again if
14 you --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could you please invite the witness to
16 tell us exactly what locations he visited, because if he says --
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- "I went where the crosses are," Baballoq is on
19 this sketch even north from the most northerly part of Lake Radonjic,
20 which certainly does not correspond --
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- with what we find on --
23 MR. EMMERSON: -- I take Your Honour's point.
24 Q. Could you just -- in answer to the Judge's question, could you
25 just explain precisely which specific parts of the lake that you were
1 visiting on those occasions. And it may be easier for you to do it by
2 reference to the facility, the water-treatment area, or whichever part of
3 the facility it was that you were personally visiting.
4 A. Yes. The filtering station we visited regularly, every week,
5 which is on the road to Suka Radoniqit and Cermjan, on a lower position.
6 From there, you can see Biteshi hill from the main road, and the villages
7 of upper Novo Sello, Janosh, Sopot. Every week we went there once or even
8 more sometimes, but at least once. I understand that the owner wanted to
9 ask about the northern part. This part we could observe from a distance.
10 Q. I see. So it was the filtering station that you regularly
11 visited. Did you visit any other facility, or was it just the filtering
13 A. We went also to Rahovec --
14 Q. No, I'm sorry --
15 A. -- but we are talking about --
16 Q. That was an ill-phrased question. At Lake Radoniq was there any
17 other part of the water facilities that you visited on a regular basis, or
18 was it just the filtering station that you were visiting?
19 A. Yes. There is the outlet of the tunnel we -- from where we let
20 the water go out to irrigate the villages.
21 Q. Yes. And are both the filtering station and the outlet of the
22 tunnel, are both of those locations in the south end of the lake? No?
23 A. Yes, in the southern part, but they are not close to one another.
24 Q. But it's from those two locations in the southern part that you're
25 basing your information about the deployment of Serb forces?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. And, finally, can I ask you this --
3 A. [In English] Can I? [Interpretation] In the vicinity of the dam,
4 there is a place where the alarm system is. In case the water would
5 overflow the dam, there was an alarm system, and it was the place where
6 the police and military forces used to sleep. From there, you can observe
7 the entire surrounding terrain.
8 Q. Thank you. And, again, to avoid any confusion, when you're
9 referring to the dam in that answer, you are referring to the dam at Lake
10 Radoniq rather than the dam at Lluka e Eperme. Is that correct?
11 A. We call dam this part, and that we use another word which I don't
12 know how to say in English. It's a similar word. But an Albanian word
14 Q. I am sorry. Did --
15 A. [In English] Intake. For this area we said intake, and dam we
16 said for the Radoniq Lake. That is different completely.
17 Q. I'm grateful for that. It is, I think, difficult for the
18 interpreters if you switch between English and Albanian in the middle of
19 an answer, and I'm afraid that that answer got a little bit lost?
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that when the witness
21 used the word that was translated "dam," that was at the end of the lake
22 where water was stopped; whereas, as far as I remember, he at least did
23 not usually use the word "dam" for what was the intake.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I think that may be me that uses dam for Lluka e
1 Q. Very well. That's helpful. One final question about the area
2 around the lake and the canal, if I may. And, again, please don't hazard
3 a guess if you don't know the answer to this. But the can you confirm
4 that on either side of the canal runs a dirt track from the lake going in
5 a north-westerly direction along the canal and parallel to it?
6 A. [In English] Excuse me. Can you repeat again, please?
7 Q. Yes, yes. From the canal -- I'm sorry. From the lake, going in a
8 north-easterly direction, along the natural part of the channel, there are
9 dirt tracks passable by rough-terrain vehicles --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a mistake? I always got the impression that
13 it goes north-westerly direction, if you start --
14 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Your Honour is quite right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 THE WITNESS: Starting point, please.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. Starting --
19 A. Point.
20 Q. -- point is the point at which the canal enters the lake; and then
21 proceeding in a north-westerly direction - His Honour corrects me - there
22 are dirt tracks either side and parallel to the canyon, which are passable
23 by rough-terrain vehicles. Can you confirm that, please?
24 A. [Interpretation] Depends. In difficult conditions, it's
25 impossible to drive, even four-wheel drives.
1 Q. We, obviously, have some aerial photographs of the area along the
2 canal which show - I don't think they're very clear on your
3 black-and-white copies, without pulling them up for you - which show dirt
4 tracks running along, first of all, the eastern side from the lake up the
5 natural section of the canal and on the western side as well. Now, are
6 you saying that those dirt tracks were, at times, not passable?
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness called what you called the
8 natural section "the canyon."
9 MR. EMMERSON: The canyon.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Same --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- use the same words as consistently as possible.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no road at all in the part
14 of the canyon. Up to the beginning of the canyon, there is an asphalt
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. Yes. I'm not speaking of asphalt roads.
18 A. [In English] No, no, no. It's a bad road. [Interpretation] It's
19 an ordinary road.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour just give me a moment.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'll just see if we can pull up a photograph. In
23 the meantime, I'll move on to another topic and come back to that, if I
24 may, whilst that's being identified.
25 Q. Let me ask you some questions, if I may, please, about your
1 understanding of the way in which the intake at Lluka e Eperme was
2 controlled. First of all, Sali Zejnaj is an employee whose primary
3 responsibility was control of the intake at Lluka e Eperme, is that
4 correct, in 1998?
5 A. The person who was responsible for the intake in Decan was killed.
6 Q. Yes. Well, I'm going to come back to him. It's Musli Mulliqi, is
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he worked alongside Sali Zejnaj. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And Sali Zejnaj was based at the intake position at Lluka e
12 Eperme. Is that right?
13 A. Now and again.
14 Q. You say "now and again." In addition to that, was he responsible
15 for patrolling along the canal area?
16 A. Yes. He did that now and again.
17 Q. Well, you -- you've used that expression "now and again." Apart
18 from those two responsibilities, that is, manning the intake and
19 patrolling the canal, did he have other responsibilities as well during
20 1998 or were they his jobs?
21 A. I am saying "now and again" because he did patrol the area when he
22 had a possibility, and this went on until June of 1998, when he was driven
23 out of his home.
24 Q. Yes. Well, that's what I wanted to come to.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Whilst I do, could we please pull up P45 on the
2 Q. Prior to June 1998, were you in contact with Sali Zejnaj on a
3 regular basis or not?
4 A. No. Only when I mentioned it in my statement. It was in March
5 when I met him for the last time before the war.
6 Q. I see. So when was the next time after March that you met him?
7 A. After 1999, I don't remember when I met him. I didn't remember
8 the date.
9 Q. Were you aware - and yes or no at this point will do - were you
10 aware that it was Sali Zejnaj's practice to leave the gates open at Lluka
11 e Eperme, in order to lower the level of the water in the River Bishtrica
12 so that civilians could escape from the Serbs? Did you know that he was
13 manipulating the water up until June in order to enable civilians to
14 escape across the river bed at the River Bishtrica?
15 A. Allow me to give an explanation here. Sali was an employer of
16 mine. It was not that we had direct supervisory relationship. At that
17 time I was not his boss, let's say his manager.
18 Q. Yes. I'm simply asking you the question: Were you aware, yes or
19 no, that he used to deliberately manipulate the water by leaving the gates
20 at the intake open in order to ensure that the level of the water in the
21 River Bishtrica was kept to a minimum so that civilians could flee across
22 it? Was that something that you were aware of?
23 A. I wasn't aware of that.
24 Q. Very well.
25 A. And, second, if he was given an order, I want to remind you of the
1 fact that the director of the company at that time was a Serb. Maybe he
2 was given the order and he had to but comply with it, but I have no
3 information about that.
4 Q. Very well. I'll come to that in a moment or two. Whilst we do,
5 you can see the photograph on the screen in front of you. So we're now
6 looking along the canal towards the lake. You can't see the lake in the
7 orientation that we've got at the moment. Perhaps if we look to the top
8 of the screen you can see the lake in the distance, and you can see the
9 area that you're looking at is the end of the concrete section and the
10 start of the canyon.
11 Do you see on the left-hand side of the photograph the dirt track
12 that appears to run parallel to the water? Can you see that? Yes?
13 A. [In English] Yes.
14 Q. That dirt track was there in 1998, wasn't it?
15 A. [Interpretation] I don't remember this track.
16 Q. Again, you've told us that you didn't go to any section of the
17 canyon or canal during 1998. Are you saying that you remember that it was
18 not there at some previous time? What exactly are -- is your evidence on
20 A. I can only say that I have never been on this track.
21 Q. I see. And, again, we see certain tracks running along the other
22 side of the road -- of the canyon. Were you aware of any means of travel
23 along what we see as the right-hand side of the canyon by vehicle?
24 A. I don't remember the track on the right side. Maybe I did not pay
1 Q. I mean, just so that we've got the position clear, is it that you
2 really went there so infrequently at that time that you don't know one way
3 or the other what was taking place along there?
4 A. If you're referring to 1998 and 1999, I can frankly say that I was
5 not there at all.
6 Q. Very well. You can say, though, I think, is this correct, that
7 even though you didn't observe the canal or its length at any point during
8 that year, that you know that the water-flow was unusually high that year?
9 A. In order for you to better understand, there is a sketch of the
10 catchment area in Decan, of the intake in Decan, where I mentioned that we
11 could not manipulate with the three gates because they were fixed for a
12 long time. And because the water flowed all the time, we did not know or
13 we did not have the instrument to measure what water-flow there was.
14 Q. Mr. Sefa, just bear with me for a moment. Leaving measurements
15 aside, you have indicated, in the witness statement that you attested to
16 this morning, that you do know that during 1998 there was more water than
17 usual. You say you know that because there was an overflow in the lake,
18 that there had been a lot of snow in the winter of 1997 to 1998, and that
19 by June or July the overflow in the lake was 40 centimetres and the noise
20 of the water so loud that people who were stationed there were unable to
22 Now, that is a summary of what you say in paragraphs 38 and 84 of
23 your witness statement. I'm paraphrasing. So can you confirm for us,
24 please, that you were aware that the water levels were higher than in
25 normal years?
1 A. Yes, I confirm that --
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. -- because we have a piece of equipment. Where the U014 is,
4 there's the end of the lake and you can see the Bitesh hill. After,
5 behind that lake, that hill is where the water overflows, and that
6 indicated to us that there was an overflow.
7 Q. And --
8 A. But we did not have any information about the canal.
9 Q. Very well. But the water that's coming into the lake is coming
10 through the canal, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And a 40-centimetre overflow in the lake would indicate a heavy
13 flow in the canal, would it not?
14 A. There was a big inflow, yes.
15 Q. Yes. And that was the position throughout the summer?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. And you've told us that you were not aware of Sali
18 Zejnaj deliberately manipulating the gates to leave them up until June.
19 But were you aware that when he left in June, he left the gates wide open
20 at Lluka e Eperme?
21 A. I don't want to confuse things here. We are speaking about gates
22 that take the water from the river and not gates that leave the river take
23 its own natural course.
24 Q. I understand that. The purpose of the gates is to divert the
25 water from the River Bishtrica from the canal down into the lake. I think
1 we all understand that. And when you leave the gates open into the canal,
2 the effect is to divert the water from the river into the canal; is it
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you've told us already that you were not aware of Mr. Zejnaj
6 deliberately doing that in order to cause the River Bishtrica to be lower
7 prior to June. I understand that. The question that I'm asking you is:
8 Were you aware that when he left in June, he also left the gates open so
9 that the River Bishtrica would be permanently diverted into the canal?
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm really confused here, Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What I'd like to know is --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that information.
14 MR. EMMERSON: I see.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If we are talking about the gates, I'd like to know
16 exactly what gates we are talking about. If I take you to the -- the
17 annexes to the statement, if we look at annex 3, and perhaps the version
18 as we find it in the statement at the original page 5, which is U0163144.
19 Witness, if you could look at that as well, that is the marked
20 sketch you made. I do understand that the natural flow of the river is in
21 direction B and that what the witness --
22 THE WITNESS: Can you excuse me for a moment, please?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm talking about page 5 of the original,
24 not of the --
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The natural flow of water in the river is in
2 direction B, from what I understand.
3 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now there are gates indicated with A. I find
5 those same gates in the original on page 7; that is, two gates, if I well
6 understood. Picture on page 7.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I do understand if you open the gates, the water
9 will take the natural flow through the river; whereas, if you close the
10 gates, then the water will be diverted into the canal. Is that correct?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. --
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Emmerson, may I --
15 THE WITNESS: [In English] Can I explain a little bit something?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only gate A suffices to be closed or
18 opened, and this process happens. I'm speaking about the time then, what
19 the situation was then.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear to me.
21 Mr. Emmerson, where I got confused --
22 MR. EMMERSON: I understand exactly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- is on page 45.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, 45 of --
25 JUDGE ORIE: to leave them up.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: "But are you aware that when he left in June, he left
3 the gates wide open?"
4 And then you said: "The purpose of the gates is -- and when you
5 leave the gates open from the canal, the effect is to divert the water" --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- "from the river to the ..." There it is really
8 confusing for me.--
9 MR. EMMERSON: It depends on which case we're referring to. I
10 will clarify, if I may.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. There is a means by which the flow of water into the canal can be
14 controlled with the system that appears in that diagram marked with C, D,
15 E, and F, is there not?
16 A. Yes, correct.
17 Q. And the more open the gates there are, the more water will flow
18 into the canal?
19 A. [In English] Yeah. [Interpretation] I will explain now. If you
20 look at picture 63144 --
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. -- the gates C, D, and F were permanently open, not only during
23 the war but even before the war.
24 Q. I see.
25 A. They were open and remained open until 2002 or 2003, as far as I
1 remember. Can I continue?
2 Q. Please do.
3 A. With 1A or 2A, if you opened them, the water flows away; if you
4 close them, the water flows into the canal.
5 Q. I see. And the gates at D, E, and F, they're capable of being
6 closed, aren't they? They can be closed?
7 A. Yes, now, yes, but not then at that time.
8 Q. I see.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I think the witness testified - but I
10 would have to find that - that these gates were not adjustable.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- at the time. And, therefore, I was really
13 confused which gates we were talking about because --
14 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- you are talking about manipulating gates, of which
16 the witness earlier said that at that time through these gates you could
17 not control the water-level in the canal.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm seeking to clarify this witness's
19 evidence in connection with the by the statements that have been made by
20 the man who operated them.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is not aware of that, so we try to
22 understand on the basis of what --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I understand entirely. Just bear with me for
24 a moment.
25 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.
1 MR. EMMERSON:
2 Q. Can I then ask you, first of all, please, to look at the witness
3 statement that was made by Sali Zejnaj to the Prosecution on the 8th of
4 August of this year.
5 MR. EMMERSON: This was only served on us yesterday evening, so
6 I'm afraid it was not loaded into the system.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was sent to us and I printed them out on
8 last break, but I forgot to take them from my desk. So if there is any
9 copy available --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, we have copies. There is an Albanian and an
11 English copy for the witness.
12 Q. I want, if I may, to look at two passages in this statement and
13 then two passages in a statement this witness has made to the Defence.
14 First of all, could you turn to paragraph 23 of Mr. Zejnaj's --
15 I'm sorry. You have in Albanian, Mr. Zejnaj's statement there, I think.
16 If you could turn to paragraph 23, I'll just read it into the record.
17 "Answering a question from the investigator, during the conflict
18 I moved between Irzniq and Upper Lluka to check the intake about every
19 three days. As far as I can remember, I went to the intake to open the
20 gates to ease the flow of water in the River Bishtrica so that the people
21 could cross the river easily.
22 "The people wanted to cross the river, as it was dangerous for
23 them to travel on the main roads as these were taken by the Serbs."
24 And then he says: "The people were leaving the villages close to
25 the main road like Baballoq, Gramaqel, Dubrava, Shaptej, and Gllogjan."
1 And: "Had to cross the river so that they could reach the other side to
2 villages Isniq, Prapaqan, Brelic, Kryshec, and Dubovik," because he says
3 those were safer. "The area on this side of the river did not have the
4 presence of Serb troops.
5 And the question that arrises from that is that Mr. Zejnaj seems
6 to be saying that in order to enable people to cross the River Bishtrica,
7 he was reducing the flow of water by manipulating the gates at Lluka e
8 Eperme. But he describes it as opening the gates to ease the flow so that
9 people could cross the river easily. I wonder if you could help us with
10 what he is referring to there.
11 A. He has stated here exactly what happened and how it was. If you
12 have the map of the intake --
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. -- you will see that after the intake, there is a part of the
15 river where you can cross the river. I will explain. In order for people
16 to be able to cross the river, at the end of this intake, he deviated the
17 water towards the canal and offered the possibility to people to cross the
18 river, but this is at the end of the intake.
19 Q. But the effect of what he is doing is to divert the flow of water
20 from the river and into the canal?
21 A. Yes, that's how you do it. That's the function.
22 Q. And he describes that as opening the gates. Do you know why that
24 A. Maybe there's a misunderstanding of what he said.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Maybe in translation there was something that was --
2 Q. I see --
3 A. -- wrongly understood. If you open A, the water flows its course;
4 if you close it, it deviates.
5 Q. Now then let me put the question to you again that I put earlier.
6 Did you know that he was deviating the water from the river into the
7 canal? However that's mechanically achieved, did you know that that's
8 what he was doing in order to let people cross?
9 A. No.
10 Q. But --
11 A. -- I was not aware of that.
12 Q. Very well.
13 A. I did not have any contact with him, so how could I have known?
14 Q. Very well. But the effect of doing that in this year where the
15 water-levels were unusually high would be to increase the flow of water in
16 the canal, would it not?
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. Can I add something? Maybe it's difficult for you to understand.
20 But if we refer to the photograph on page 5, point A on the left --
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. -- has a function to deplete the water that is in the -- in the
23 intake area. There's a photograph on page 6 as well, which shows the
24 direction of the water-flow. If you open point A, the water is depleted
25 completely from here. If you open the right gate, the water is not
1 completely depleted, and that's how he could manipulate with it, whether
2 he could send more or less water to the canal. This is technically how it
4 Q. Yes. Thank you very much for that explanation. If we could just
5 drop down to paragraph 30 in his witness statement, he says this - and for
6 the record I'll read it - "Answering a question from the investigator, if
7 a body is dropped in the canal, the current is so forceful that it can
8 transport objects even heavier than dead bodies will flow all the way to
9 the beginning of the lake. They will cross the canyon as well.
10 "The height of water in the channel at the beginning of the
11 channel is 70 centimetres, if the flow is 12 metres cubed per second
12 opinion. The channel is roughly two metres deep. The canyon will be even
13 less deep as it is wider."
14 Now, Mr. Zejnaj obviously had greater practical opportunity
15 day-to-day opportunity to observe the canal in 1998 than you did. Do you
17 A. Yes. He could observe until June, but I don't know how often. As
18 I said earlier, I'm not his line manager -- I was not his line manager.
19 Q. I understand. But if we look at the passage that we've just
20 looked at in paragraph 23, he says he was moving between Irzniq and Upper
21 Lluka, at least, every three days until the conflict when he left in June.
22 So I just want to be clear, would you agree with his assessment
23 that if the current is in the canal, perhaps especially in a year of heavy
24 flow where the water is being deliberately manipulated in this way, that
25 it could be so forceful that it could transmit objects even heavier than a
1 dead body all the way along the canal and to the opening of the lake. Do
2 you agree with that?
3 A. I can agree with one thing, that everything is possible.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. The fact itself -- I don't know whether you know what 12 cubic
6 metres per second means. It's such a force that creates -- it creates a
7 canyon. I don't know what actually happened there. Sali might have been
8 there more often than me. Of course he was, and what he says may be
10 Q. And that is the usual -- roughly the usual maximum flow, is it
12 A. The annual average is two to three cubic metres per second, but
13 sometimes there are 12, 10 cubic metres, sometimes one or two cubic
14 metres, but this is not relevant. So the amount that enters the canal
15 does not -- is not an indicator what the level of the lake is.
16 Q. No, I understand. If you listen to my question, perhaps I should
17 put it to you again. The figure that Mr. Zejnaj gives in his witness
18 statement of 12 cubic metres per second, that would ordinarily, in
19 ordinary circumstances, that would be the strongest or maximum flow in the
20 canal, would it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. If the canal was fully utilised by a heavy flow from the River
23 Bishtrica diverted into the canal?
24 A. The canal is never full because the speed is very high and the
25 energy of the water is very high.
1 Q. I think there may have been a translation error there. Just to be
2 absolutely clear, that figure of 12 cubic metres would be the normal
3 maximum when there was no obstruction at Lluka e Eperme preventing water
4 from entering the canal and when the gates were closed to prevent the
5 water from flowing into the River Bishtrica. That would be the maximum
6 flow when the water in the canal was at its heaviest?
7 A. The largest amount of water is 12 cubic metres per second.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
10 THE WITNESS: [In English] "Per second," I said.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Since the witness is taking us to page 6, could I
14 MR. EMMERSON: Of --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ask you to go back to page 5 in the original, and
16 could you tell us, you indicated something with a G there which is not
17 explained in your statement. Could you tell us what you indicated by the
18 letter G.
19 THE WITNESS: It's not -- [Interpretation] I don't see it, the G
20 that you mentioned.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's your sketch, your sketch, left from the sketch,
22 as a matter of fact.
23 THE WITNESS: It's C, that is not G.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I see a --
25 THE WITNESS: Right.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- I see a G just at the border. I see a C where the
2 river flows, that's under the B. But what looks like a G and is different
3 from another C, I see -- Mr. Dutertre, could you assist me. Do we all see
4 a G there or not?
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that there is
6 a reference to G in paragraph 16, which is where the statement was made,
7 or rather, where the photograph that follows was taken. G is where the
8 photograph was taken. At the beginning of paragraph 7, there is mention
9 of that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. [In English] Objection.
11 I'm sorry. [Interpretation] G is interpreted like this. It corresponds
12 to another photograph that is connected with this.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I now see in 16. Yes, yes. I now -- yes. I
14 was not looking -- I was not looking well.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 6.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The explanation is given in relation to the
17 photograph. Yes, it's clear. It's perfectly clear.
18 I would have one other question in this respect. If you look at
19 how that photograph is taken on page 6, it looks as if there's some kind
20 of overflow next to the gate. You see the first long line on the left of
21 the photograph. Could you explain to me what that is. That is -- it
22 looks like concrete and that's where the tire is close to. Is that a kind
23 of a safety overflow facility?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The G letter you mentioned earlier
1 corresponds to the photo on page 6 from where the photo was taken. Now D
2 is linked with D, E, F on page 5.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there for a second, because I have
4 got no problems at all to understand now both G and the whole sketch. I
5 think at least I do understand.
6 What I'm interested to know is on the photograph on page 6, we see
7 there is water to the right. At the back, we have the -- the entry into
8 the canal. On the left back, we have the gate which allows the water to
9 flow or to continue to flow in the river.
10 Now, I see a concrete structure which go from the left, bottom-top
11 of the photograph to approximately two-thirds, just slightly to the right
12 upwards, which is rather light on the photograph and which appears, at
13 first sight to me, to be a kind of a concrete structure. And I wonder
14 what the function of that is.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This concrete structure is used to
16 help accumulate the water on point B, and the water is collected there;
17 and then you see in letter -- on letter E, its direction for the canal.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if the water -- is there so much water that the
19 canal cannot take it? And if you close the gates at A, what would happen
20 with the remainder of the water? Would that flow over what here seems to
21 be a -- I hardly dare to use the word dam, which it seems to be. Would it
22 flow over that dam and continue its natural force?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right. That's exactly how
24 it is. This is the place from where the surplus amount of water goes out.
25 The excess water which the canal cannot contain goes over this concrete
1 structure and flows naturally.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And it is on the basis of this structure that you
3 could tell us what the maximum flow of water in the canal is. Because if
4 there would be more, it would just flow into the river because the canal
5 cannot take it, the water-level would rise, and then flow over the dam.
6 Is that correctly understood?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is very correctly understood. If
8 there is more than 12 cubic metres, then it goes on this side over the
9 structure. The canal can contain only up to 12 cubic metres.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
13 Q. You mentioned earlier a worker at Lluka e Eperme who'd worked with
14 Mr. Zejnaj who was killed, Musli Mulliqi. First of all, can I ask you to
15 confirm that Mr. Mulliqi was shot by Serbian forces?
16 A. First, I would kindly ask you to say Musli Mulliqi, which is his
17 correct name.
18 Q. I apologise. I apologise for my pronunciation. Can you confirm
19 that he was shot by Serb forces?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And can you confirm, please, that he was shot by the canal as he
22 was leaving from work?
23 A. I had already made a remark; namely, that he was killed in the
24 line of duty when he was performing his job --
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. -- because he was near his house, and the canal from his house to
2 the canal is very near.
3 Q. Yes. In fact, just so that we're clear, he lived in property
4 owned by the company, which was situated adjacent to the canal and close
5 to Lluka e Eperme, to the intake point?
6 A. Yes. Yes. At the intake point was that little house which we
8 Q. I'll come to that in a little while. But he was shot, was he not,
9 as he was walking along the edge of the canal by Serb forces?
10 A. Our tradition is to go to the house of the deceased and pay your
11 condolences, so this is what we did and this is what we were told.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. We felt it our moral obligation to go to his family and pay a
15 Q. Can you help us with anything more specific. How far along the
16 canal section from the intake point was he shot dead, roughly? Can you
17 give us an estimate?
18 A. Maybe 100, 150 metres. But you must know that he was responsible
19 not only for the intake point but also for the canal.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, when we ask a witness for an estimate,
22 then it's usually an estimate based on what he saw or what he was told --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- in further detail.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I've got no idea who told him this. I don't --
2 MR. EMMERSON: I think the witness has said the information, so
3 far he has said, the source of the information came from the family when
4 he visited them immediately after, so I was about to ask --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether the family saw it and the
6 whether assessment is an assessment by the family or him being shown
7 certain areas and then make his own assessment as far as distances are
9 MR. EMMERSON: I entirely take the point.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Can you please try and remember as much as possible of what you
13 were told and by whom you were told about the circumstances and location
14 of this fatal shooting?
15 A. When we went to his house to pay our condolences, we saw the
16 police forces in front of the door. We did our visit and asked what
17 happened, and they told us approximately the place where he was shot. And
18 based on their words, I gave this rough estimate.
19 Q. I see. Thank you very much. These were police forces of the MUP,
20 were they?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did they tell you they'd shot him because they'd thought he
23 was in the KLA?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is "they" the family or the police?
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. They, the police.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. That was unclear from the previous
2 question when the witness said "they told me" --
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- he had referred to both family and friends.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. Did the police tell you they shot your colleague because they
7 believed him to be in the KLA? Is that what they told you?
8 A. No. We didn't talk with them, frankly speaking, but we learned
9 this information from another source. We didn't talk with the police.
10 Q. I thought you told us a moment ago, but perhaps you can help us
11 with some clarity on this. I thought you told us --
12 A. The family members --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think he's referring to where I made the
14 observation that the day was unclear, whether that was police or family.
15 MR. EMMERSON: I see.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. You told us that when you went to his house to pay condolences,
19 you saw police forces in front of the door. You asked what had happened,
20 and they told you approximately the place where he was shot. Now, could
21 you tell us who it was who told you the place where he was shot.
22 A. We were told by the family members in the room where we were
23 expressing our condolences, where people had gathered there.
24 Q. And just to be clear, do you know how they knew where he had been
1 A. It's my guess - it's not that I am certain - but I suppose they
2 were the ones who got his corpse.
3 Q. Yes. And were you told that he had been travelling in a car at
4 that time?
5 A. No, that's not true that he was travelling in a car.
6 Q. Very well. The information you received was that he was walking.
7 Is that correct?
8 A. The distance from his home to the place didn't need to use a car.
9 Q. I see. Can I ask you this: Do you know when in -- this shooting
11 A. I don't know for sure. I gave this information when I was asked
12 to make a statement, and when we could look at the archives of the
13 enterprise --
14 Q. Very well.
15 A. -- which certified the time that the deceased died.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you for helping us as much as you can. Can I
17 ask, please, that you be shown a further statement --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps one follow-up.
19 You say you don't know when. Have you got no idea. Was it 1997?
20 2000? 1998? Was it summer? Was it autumn? Do you remember the
21 circumstances under which you visited the family, for example? Was that
22 during the war? Before the war?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was for sure before 1999.
24 Of this I'm sure, but I'm not so certain whether it was 1997 or 1998. A
25 long time has passed. I only know that it was bad weather. It was
1 raining when we went to see him. Maybe it's a mistake there. I wouldn't
2 dare manipulate with the dates.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. Just to follow-up on that, I asked you a question a little earlier
7 on about whether you learned that he had been shot in the mistaken belief
8 that he was a member of the KLA. And I haven't got the transcript
9 reference in front of me, but my recollection was that you replied that
10 you learned that from somewhere else. Can I ask you: Was he killed
11 during the conflict?
12 A. I don't think so.
13 Q. I see. Well --
14 A. You asked me how I found out about that. We were informed by the
15 directorate of the company that he was killed. That's why we went to pay
16 him a visit.
17 Q. Yes, I understand that. I'm sorry. Did the director of the
18 company inform you that there was a belief that he'd been killed because
19 he was suspected to be a member of the KLA?
20 A. Maybe it's not good of me to say this, but do you know who the
21 director was? You cannot expect him to say this. I might have been in
22 his place --
23 Q. Very well --
24 A. -- and he would have described the event in the same way.
25 Q. I --
1 A. I regret to respond in this way, but, of course, he wouldn't admit
2 to him being killed by the Serbs.
3 Q. I understand why you say that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, perhaps it doesn't take us much further
5 on --
6 MR. EMMERSON: I agree.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- this matter. I just want to say one word when I
8 asked you that you believed he was killed as a mistaken belief. I don't
9 think "mistaken" was part of the question, and at the same time I don't
10 think the witness could answer that question, if put that way, just for
11 the record.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. I'll leave the question there for a
14 Q. Can I ask that you be shown a statement made by Sali Zejnaj to the
15 Defence in this case.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That would need a number, Mr. Emmerson?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the other -- oh, yes, the other
19 statement, the statement of Sali Zejnaj, you have read from it. Is it
20 your intention to tender that?
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 So then first now the statement of Zejnaj -- Sali Zejnaj needs a
24 number, that's interview dated 8th of August, 2006.
25 Mr. Registrar, that would be ...?
1 THE REGISTRAR: D121, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. We have -- yes, this is the English
3 version or does there exist any Albanian version of the --
4 MR. EMMERSON: There doesn't, I'm afraid. I was going to ask the
5 witness whether or not he reads English; if not, to take him through the
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm still talking about Sali Zejnaj.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Oh, yes, there does. For a Prosecution statement
9 there does.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. Now we have the statement taken by
11 the Defence from Sali Zejnaj.
12 That would be, Mr. Registrar, number ...?
13 THE REGISTRAR: D122.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D122.
15 MR. EMMERSON: And that is in the system at 1D45-0038.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And you take proper care that when putting passages
17 to the witness that there is no Albanian original.
18 MR. EMMERSON: I'll speak at an appropriate speed.
19 Q. Can I just be clear whether you are able to speak -- I'm sorry, to
20 read any English?
21 A. [In English] I can.
22 Q. And you can read in English?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. First of all, if we can look at the second paragraph on the first
25 page beginning for the first month, it reads: "For the first month, I was
1 working as a security worker, and after that I became dam manipulator in
2 the village Lluka e Eperme, where I am still working at present."
3 I just draw attention to that at present, because when, in this
4 statement, when the word "dam" appears, it's a reference to the intake
5 facility at Lluka e Eperme.
6 I wonder, first of all, if you can turn to page 2, in this
7 statement, to the fourth line down, where there is a reference to the
8 death of Musli Mulliqi, and you can see that a date there is given for his
9 death having being killed by Serbian forces in September 1998. I take it
10 that you're not in a position one way or the other to confirm or
11 contradict that?
12 A. No. I can confirm this because this is the very reason that his
13 son continues to work with us.
14 Q. Yes. But in relation to the date, I thought your evidence a
15 moment ago was that you simply couldn't remember one way or the other?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, he could. He could
17 remember that it was late 1997 or early 1998. I think that's what he said
18 in the transcript.
19 JUDGE ORIE: From what I remember is that he said that it would
20 not be 1999. I didn't --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, definitely not 1999.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I thought he referred to early 1998, but 1997 or
23 1998, because otherwise there would be a contradiction if it would be
24 early 1998 with this statement. I'll find it for you and then see if my
25 recollection is right.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. EMMERSON: My recollection, for what it is worth, is that the
3 witness wasn't able to say whether for sure it was during the conflict or
4 not, which is why I --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He said not 1999. We can all look it up, and
6 then we know what the witness said. If that needs any further comment,
7 then we will hear from you.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you need, I can repeat what I
11 said. I cannot remember accurately when.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. Thank you very much. If I can just pick up on page 3, there's two
14 passages I want to take you to first of all. And once I've gone through
15 them with you, I would like to ask you to comment on them.
16 First of all, the third full paragraph on page 3 for the record
17 reads: "I remember that in March 1998, the situation became very tense
18 around the villages where I was working. The danger was that sometimes
19 there was shooting between the Serbian and UCK soldiers. Both forces had
20 positions in the area of the dam, but neither directly controlled the dam.
21 I had to continue to work because someone had to stay at the dam to
22 control the water-flow and also at the same time I needed money."
23 And then picking it up in the paragraph at the bottom of that
24 page: "During that period from March 1998 to September 1998, the dam was
25 in the firing line between the two forces and wasn't controlled by anyone.
1 Serbian forces were moving sometimes closer to shoot at KLA soldiers. The
2 KLA soldiers were coming with me when I was going to the dam, giving me
3 protection so that I could carry on operating the water controls and carry
4 out the cleaning of the filters for the canal.
5 "Above the dam, in the direction of Gjakove, the distance of
6 Serbian forces was around a thousand metres left from the dam. This is
7 looking to the main road that goes to Gjakove. Approximately, 600 metres
8 below the dam, there were KLA/UCK soldiers. They were not in any
9 particular fixed positions that I could see. I never saw the KLA soldiers
10 move closer to the dam.
11 "The Serbian forces were moving closer to the dam, shooting in
12 different areas, including our work-place. I recognised them as Serbian
13 forces because they were coming armed with tanks and heavy weapons."
14 So pausing there for a moment, were you aware that there was
15 fighting going on between the two sides in the immediate vicinity of the
16 dam at Lluka e Eperme between March and September?
17 A. Are you asking me whether I was present there or whether I heard
18 of it?
19 Q. Whether you heard of it. I appreciate you weren't present because
20 you've already told us that.
21 A. I heard of it.
22 Q. Thank you. And can you tell us where you heard of it from and how
23 you learnt of it?
24 A. In Gjakove, there was the Office for the Protection of Human
25 Rights and Freedoms. And very often we contacted that office to get
1 information on what was going on, where the war was being waged, where
2 there were problems in order to avoid contact with the problematic areas.
3 Q. I see.
4 A. I just wanted to tell you that in this office, this Council for
5 the Protection of Human Rights and Freedoms, you may find the statement of
6 the position of the Serb forces. When they were shelling the dam -- from
7 the dam, we asked them to leave the place because we were afraid that the
8 dam would suffer some damage because of the great detonations and
9 explosions, and you have information to that effect I think.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I've got about another 20 minutes or
11 so for this witness. I'm entirely in Your Honours' hands.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the indication was that you needed one hour and
13 a half.
14 MR. EMMERSON: I know, and I apologise for that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, on the basis of how matters stand now,
16 how much time do you think you would need for re-examination?
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It's very difficult to valuate
18 because we haven't had the full cross-examination, but I would think about
19 20 minutes on the basis of what Mr. Emmerson has already done.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course I asked you first because in the
21 present situation you do not know yet what the cross-examination of the
22 other counsel would be.
23 Mr. Guy-Smith, how much do you think you would need?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Depending on how things go, about ten minutes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes.
1 Mr. Harvey.
2 MR. HARVEY: I don't anticipate any cross-examination of this
3 witness. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
5 If we have a break now, we would resume at five minutes to 1.00.
6 20 minutes would bring us to quarter past 1.00.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith, you said 15.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Seven minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Seven minutes, that would bring us to -- yes.
10 Mr. Emmerson, we will have a break now; upon resuming, you'll have
11 until 12 minutes past 1.00, that's a little bit shorter than you
13 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You have your seven minutes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 And then you should finish before quarter to 2.00.
16 We stand adjourned and we'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed. At the same time, I
20 have for the end of this session a few procedural matters which I think I
21 can handle in seven minutes. So if everyone could save - not you,
22 Mr. Guy-Smith - if everyone could save a few minutes.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will be shorter based on my conversation with
24 Mr. Emmerson.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. EMMERSON:
3 Q. I want, if I may, just to deal with one or two other issues in
4 Mr. Zejnaj's witness statement. First of all, page 5, the second main
5 paragraph, I won't read it out because time is pressing, he indicates that
6 the level of water was very high at the dam during this period, and that
7 as a result he had with the other workers there to cut the dam filters off
8 because there was a possibility that they would be blocked by rubbish.
9 And says: "After we cut the filters off, I opened the water-control gates
10 for the canal to send most of the water down the canal. Water flowed
11 through the Radoniq Lake at a very high level. This was recorded on my
12 reports of the water-level."
13 Question for you: Were you aware that he had cut the filters off?
14 A. I don't know what he meant when he said that.
15 Q. Very well. Did you find any damage to the filters yourself at any
17 A. Many of the bars were not touched. I think he meant those, the
18 bars. Maybe not at all touched.
19 Q. Very well.
20 A. Probably one or two bars may have been damaged, but 95 per cent of
21 them were in place.
22 Q. Thank you. Moving to the following paragraph, he indicates that
23 at the end of June, when the situation became tense and Serbian forces
24 were within 300 metres of the dam, he left the area and didn't go back
25 until June 1999. And he says: "That day," this is a quotation. "That
1 day, when I left the dam, the gates of dam were opened to the maximum that
2 water can flow to the Radoniq canal and not the Bishtrica River. (The
3 gates of Bishtrica River were closed so that a minimum flowed into the
5 Again, does that refresh your memory?
6 A. [In English] Can you repeat, please?
7 Q. Yes. He says, if you can look at the last four lines of the
8 second or the third full paragraph on page 5, the paragraph that begins:
9 "At the end of June," Mr. Zejnaj indicates when he left the dam, he says:
10 "The gates were open to the maximum that water can flow to the Radoniq
11 canal and not to the Bishtrica River. (The gates of Bishtrica River were
12 closed so a minimum of water flowed into the river)."
13 The question I'm asking you is does that assist in your
14 recollection as to the way in which the matter -- the gates had been left,
15 the configuration had been left in June?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Is Mr. Emmerson asking was that the situation when
17 this witness went back some time later?
18 MR. EMMERSON: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think Mr. Emmerson is asking whether the
20 witness has any recollection of how the dam was left in June.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Whether the witness was aware, is the question that
22 I'm asking.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was aware, because I think the witness earlier
24 testified that he had not been there earlier in June.
25 Do you have any information as to how the dam was left in June
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any information as to
3 how the dam was left in June 1998, but this is in conformity with my
4 statement. Otherwise, the water would not have flown to the lake. That's
5 why I think he must have left the gates like that. I said that water came
6 during the summertime, and that's why I say that it's the same as I said
7 in my statement. How did I know that the water went into the lake?
8 Because the level rose.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. Yes. And just follow-up on that. Normally, during the summer,
11 the configuration at the lot would be left so that for the summer months,
12 there was no water flowing through the canal; is that correct? That would
13 be the normal thing in normal years?
14 A. In normal times, there are two or three indications that changed
15 the whole system, because there is the water in the reservoir in Decan,
16 then the water that flows until the Bishtrica River, which has to be
17 left -- some kind of amount of water has to be left this, and then the
18 water that we divert to the Radoniq Lake.
19 Q. Thank you. Would you turn to page 6 now, where we can see - and
20 I'll summarize it for you, again because time is pressing - that
21 Mr. Zejnaj indicates that in June 1999 when he returned to the area, there
22 was a first clean-up operation. And he refers to a clean-up operation
23 that began in the area around the police station at Irzniq in which he
24 indicates that in June 1999 two dead bodies were recovered, one of which
25 was identified as a man called Daut Aliqkaj, and that he learned from
1 people in the village that this man's wife had been present when he was
2 killed by the Serbs.
3 Can I ask you: Were you aware that the body of a man who was
4 believed to have been killed by the Serbs had been recovered in the canal
5 close to Irzniq police station in June 1999?
6 A. This is the first time I hear about any bodies there. I was not
7 aware of any bodies or of anything that happened in the lake or in the
8 canal. I've seen bodies elsewhere. I was not asked about those, and I
9 did not give a statement about those. So I saw bodies on the terrain
10 somewhere else, but not on the canal -- in the canal and in Radoniq.
11 Q. Thank you. Final question, if I may, because of the time. You
12 mentioned an occasion when you thought you may be required to close the
13 gates during the Serbian investigation of the canal in which bodies are
14 recorded as having been found. And we discussed earlier on whether that
15 was in August or in September.
16 I just want to ask you this: We have records indicating that the
17 Serb authorities arranged for a Serbian employee of the company to close
18 the gates so as to divert the water away from the canal and into the
19 Bishtrica River on the 9th of September, and I just want to understand
20 this: If that were done and if it were then to rain, where would the
21 water-flow? Into the Bishtrica River or into the canal?
22 A. If the gates are closed in a direction of the river and if there
23 is rain over 15 cubic metres, then it goes towards the river; if it's
24 less, then it goes towards the canal. When you asked me about the
25 intervention and the investigation, when we were asked to do that, we were
1 escorted by a police car and we were told to go and stop the water in the
2 canal in Decan because Lluka e Eperme is there.
3 Q. Just --
4 A. During that time, we were not allowed to go there, so a Serb
5 person was asked to go.
6 Q. Just pause there. If the configuration at Lluka e Eperme is
7 organised so that the water supplied to the canal is shut off, if that
8 occurs and then it rains, will the flow -- will there be a flow of water
9 in the canal or will there be a flow of water in the river or both?
10 A. Both.
11 Q. Thank you very much.
12 A. Without taking into account whether the gates are closed or open,
13 the water can flow into both.
14 Q. Yes. But if the gates to the river have been left open --
15 A. [In English] Open.
16 Q. -- the gates to the river have been left open so as to divert the
17 flow of water away from the canal and it subsequently rains, my question
18 is: Would there then be a torrent of water in the canal?
19 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Part of the amount of water could go into
20 the canal if it rains heavily.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
24 We're facing here the same gates, open/gates closed. I referred
25 to that earlier. I haven't seen the records, so I can't interpret them.
1 The only thing I'd like to do is tell you that I identified page 12, line
2 18, as the one where the impossibility to manipulate the gates until 2003
3 was mentioned by the witness.
4 Mr. Guy-Smith -- and at the same time I'd like to give one comment
5 on rain. Rain drops everywhere. So whether there's a flow, it depends
6 what rain what you're talking about. Of course, water that drops into the
7 canal itself certainly will find its way into the stream. Therefore, If
8 heavy rain, we all know there will be a stream. The question was not all
9 that clear, but let's first see whether Mr. Guy-Smith has further
10 questions for the witness.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do. Neither about the rain or the plain or in
13 Spain. I have no question about any of those things.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
16 Q. Mr. Sefa, I want to make sure I understand one aspect of your
17 evidence correctly, which deals with the issue of the maintenance workers
18 who were at the canal. Those were two individuals, if I understood your
19 testimony correctly. One was a gentleman by the name of Sali Zejnaj. The
20 other was a gentleman by the name of Musli Mulliqi; correct?
21 A. Yes, but they were not aware of what was going on, and, in fact,
22 they did not report on things. They just kept notes in a notebook, and
23 their house was burned down, so the notes were lost.
24 Q. Their direct boss was a gentleman by the name of Xheton Shasivari;
1 A. Jeton.
2 Q. I apologise. Jeton Shasivari?
3 A. Yes, yes. True.
4 Q. Now, when Mr. Mulliqi was shot and killed, at the same time, his
5 son was also wounded, wasn't he? He was shot, I think, in the stomach and
6 in the leg; right?
7 A. I heard something about this, but I do not have hundred per cent
8 correct information.
9 Q. And when you said you heard something about this, is this
10 something that you heard about from the family when you went to go visit
11 the family because of Mr. Mulliqi's death?
12 A. No. We heard about Mr. Mulliqi and about all this in Gjakove,
13 because the information came up to us, to the office where our office --
14 where our directorate is.
15 Q. So, as you sit here today, you can't tell us where you had heard
16 that Mr. Mulliqi's son had also been shot at the time that he had been
17 killed, but you have a memory that you'd heard that information. Is that
18 a fair statement?
19 A. I just heard of it; but from whom and when, I don't know.
20 Q. Did you hear that at that time that Mr. Mulliqi was shot and
21 killed, that the shots had come from a Serbian armoured vehicle?
22 A. Look, we did not enter into such analysis. We just felt sorry for
23 the family and the person who died. That's it. We just heard that he was
24 killed, and that's what I remember.
25 Q. One more question with regard to the circumstances of his death.
1 Did you hear any information from the family or from any other individual
2 that you could identify that the reason that he was killed was because the
3 Serbian police thought that he was driving a car owned by the KLA? And if
4 you did hear that, fine; if you didn't hear that, so be it.
5 A. To tell you the truth, I know he was killed. And in this
6 misfortune, the good thing is that, well, I might have been killed, too,
7 and they might have labelled me as a member of the KLA or attributed
8 something else to me.
9 At the beginning, I said I don't like to speak about things that I
10 don't have arguments about or just to base my judgements on hearsay. I
11 know that the person was killed by the Serbs. As to what they attributed
12 to him, this is something else.
13 Q. There's one other matter that I'd like to ask you about. Once
14 again, I'm dealing with the subject of cars, and I'm referring to your
15 statement. You learned from Mr. Zejnaj that during, the war the MUP
16 police confiscated local people's cars and dumped them into the canal at
17 different places, didn't you?
18 A. That is correct. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions. Well, apparently I'm
21 not done.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you wish me to say something else
23 in response to your question -- in response to your question, it is true
24 that I was at the site of the event with the investigators. And to tell
25 you the truth, I was rather angry with this person because I asked him,
1 "Why didn't you take immediate photos of the situation?" But maybe the
2 conditions were such that he couldn't.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH:
4 Q. And when you say that you were asking the investigator to take
5 immediate photos of the situation, what investigator was that? Who was
6 that person?
7 A. Not the investigator, but Sali Zejnaj.
8 Q. I see. Did you receive any information from Sali Zejnaj about
9 where the cars were dumped by the Serbian police into the canal?
10 A. According to his statement, he was -- he visited several parts of
11 the canal and he saw them in -- dumped in several areas. I'm talking
12 about various distances.
13 Q. And when you say "the canal," using the terminology that we've
14 used here today, you're referring to the natural part of the canyon that
15 flows after the concrete part all the way to the lake; correct?
16 A. We are talking only about that part of the canal that is concrete.
17 I see.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Harvey, you haven't changed your mind?
21 MR. HARVEY: Still no questions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Still no questions.
23 Mr. Dutertre.
24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try to be as
25 brief as possible, first of all. And I would like to apologise ahead of
1 time because I'm lagging slightly behind. I would like to apologise the
2 statement of Sali Zejnaj that was presented. I wanted to have a French
3 translation -- I was waiting for the French translation. I was not able
4 to intervene at the right moment.
5 I don't know whether this should be under 92 bis or 92 ter, but I
6 want this statement to be put into the file so that it -- so that the
7 Prosecutor can cross-examine Sali Zejnaj. Now, I believe this will be a
8 witness called by the Defence, and perhaps we can reserve this question of
9 this document and just give it an identification number at this point.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, you would like to have the -- we have
11 now two statements. One has already D121, and the other one is D122. So,
12 therefore, whether it could be used as 92 bis or 92 ter depends on the --
13 whether all the requirements are met. At the same time, of course, they
14 are now admitted into evidence for the limited purposes of having
15 reference to the context of a statement of a witness.
16 Whether the Defence wants or doesn't want to call the witness is
17 not known to me, but let's not at this moment spend too much time on
18 this. And let's see whether you have any further questions to the
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I do have
21 additional questions.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Dutertre:
23 Q. [Interpretation] On page 29 of today's transcript, Mr. Emmerson
24 asked you whether you could help us as regards the undergrowth in the
25 canal in 1998. We're referring here to the part of the canal that is near
1 Irzniq, and you said no.
2 My question is as follows: You went to the canal in 2002 when the
3 cleaning operation began. Could you tell us what the average diameter of
4 the trees were that were extracted from the canal when you went there in
6 A. On page 28 of the annex, you find my description of the
7 undergrowth, how big their diameter of the trees was, and you could see
8 also the photos produced after the cleaning took place. I wanted to make
9 a clear description of the part near the Irzniq police station, why that
10 part was not cleaned for a long time, and you have an explanation for
12 I also wanted to explain that it was very dense, that area, in
13 undergrowth, even though the canal is very wide. For me, it seems strange
14 why it was in that state, whether the bodies could pass through or could
15 remain there.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sefa. As regards the flow rate of the canal, you
17 mentioned 12 cubic metres on the average. What is the average -- what is
18 the average annual flow of the canal?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't that in the statement of the witness,
20 Mr. Dutertre? And is there any question in cross-examination that
21 triggered this question? Number 36, the average flow and river -- no,
22 that is the river.
23 "The average flow of the canal is two to three cubic metres per
24 second but it depends on the flow of water in Bishtrica." So that gives
25 an answer to the question, doesn't it. So why put again the same
1 question, unless there is any reason you would like to give it some other
3 Please proceed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have here the word "average."
5 [In English] "Average," [Interpretation] which is two to three. [In
6 English] Maximum is 12 to 15. Depends.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is clear. I was just asking Mr. Dutertre
8 whether that question had to be put for a second time.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Sefa, we know that the canal and the Radoniq Lake is -- well,
12 the water comes from the canal. Are there other sources of water, other
13 than rain-water, of course? Are there other streams or other sources of
14 water that flow into that lake?
15 A. Yes. You can find that information in map number 163279 [as
16 interpreted], addendum 25, where I described the flow of the water before
17 the lake was built. The flow estimated was one cubic at the most.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sefa. Do you know about Mr. Sali Zejnaj's
19 qualifications in hydrology? What degrees he may have?
20 A. Sali Zejnaj had finished the high school, but we had another
21 system in place. At the intake point, he should mark only the level of
22 the water of the canal in centimetres, and then we transformed that into
23 water quantity. It's a simple method of calculating the water quantity,
24 and he did a routine job. Whether it was ten centimetres high, it meant
25 such-and-such cubics.
1 Q. Fine. Thank you. I'd like to go on to another question.
2 Mr. Guy-Smith asked you a question about the Serb authorities and the Serb
3 police having put -- thrown cars into the canal. Do you know at what
4 point in time that occurred?
5 A. In my statement, I have declared that I learned this information
6 on the day that we made a site visit in Irzniq when we observed the
7 terrain. That day he mentioned the number 300 or 400 cars, and I said,
8 "That seems to be quite a large number and that you haven't counted
9 them. So you might as well just mention that there were a number of cars
10 there." So that was a first time for me to learn of this fact.
11 Q. But did you hear about when, what point in time, these Serb police
12 had put these cars into the canal?
13 A. No. I had no information about that.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no
15 further questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dutertre.
17 Judge Hoepfel has a question for you.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Sefa, you made a short statement today. I
20 quote: "I was not aware of any bodies or of anything that happened in the
21 lake or in the canal. I've seen bodies elsewhere. I was not asked about
22 those and I didn't give a statement about those. So I saw bodies on the
23 terrain somewhere else, but not on the canal, in the canal or in Radoniq,"
24 meaning the lake, probably.
25 Can you explain to us a little more about that? What have you
2 A. It is, I'll say, a difficult and at the same time a sad question,
3 because during the war we were a team that worked together, irrespective
4 of the qualifications we had. Once, in Gjakove, we had to go to cut the
5 water supply. And, unfortunately, I have to say, that we tread on some
6 corpses. It was wartime and we didn't know where to turn to provide the
7 information, but people knew about that.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: When was that about?
9 A. I mean 7, 8, 9 of May.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And what happened later after that?
11 A. What could happen? We continued our work. We told each other not
12 to say a word about what we saw, because we were afraid that someone might
13 kill us if they knew that we had learned of that fact. There was no place
14 we could go to complain about that. We didn't know what to do with this
15 information. That was it.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
17 A. [In English] You're welcome.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have also one question for you. If you please look
19 at annex 27 -- no, not 27. 28, please. That's a sketch you apparently
21 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: In the sketch, I find some debris at the bottom, and
23 I find that you have drawn vegetation vertically just growing up, if I
24 read it well, four to five metres from the bottom. Could you tell me when
25 you saw the canal, did you see any trees or trunks which were horizontally
1 in the canal?
2 So I'm trying to find out whether there were any trees cut and
3 thrown into the canal where you would expect them to be more or less
4 horizontally, or whether you only found trees or bushes in the position as
5 you have included in your sketch.
6 A. The sketch I have drawn is to give you an idea of the terrain at
7 that point and why it was not cleaned. If you look at annex 22, you'll
8 note that near the trunk that you see in this photo --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 A. -- and annex 21 as well, you'll see the vegetation and why in the
11 main sketch you cannot see the canal as drawn. The auto photo, it said.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether your answer is entirely clear to
13 me. I see that it was not cleaned. But referring to your sketch in which
14 you put some debris on the bottom, but vegetation only vertically that
15 seems as if it has grown there, I wonder whether there was any vegetation
16 such as trunks of trees or thicker bushes which apparently had not grown
17 there but had been thrown in there. If you don't know, then ...
18 A. I don't think that someone threw them there. They grew of
19 themselves. It's a natural growth of vegetation that took place there.
20 In my statement, I've already pointed out that because of the positioning
21 of the Serbian police forces which were stationed some ten metres away, we
22 were unable to clean that part, that section of the canal. You may look
23 at the photo yourself.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me, but what you saw was natural
25 growth rather than trunks of trees or bushes, thicker bushes, to be thrown
1 into the water.
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no further questions, then I would like
4 to thank you very much, Mr. Sefa, for coming to The Hague, for answering
5 all the questions put to you by the parties and the Bench. And I would
6 like to wish you a safe trip home again.
7 Madam Usher, can you please assist the witness out of the
8 courtroom so we can deal with a few procedural matters for the remaining
9 seven minutes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, when the witness spoke, he
12 expressed thanks to everyone in this courtroom.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's deal with a few procedural matters. I'd like
15 to go into private session for a second.
16 [Private session]
11 Page 6060 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 If there are any other remarks on the revised witness list by the
20 Defence, the Chamber would like to be informed as soon as possible. Yes.
21 Mr. Di Fazio, you announced that, in relation to Exhibits D56, 58,
22 and 59, that you would inform the Trial Chamber that the Prosecution will
23 not oppose admission, but there would be several reservations to be made.
24 I don't know. If you could do that in half a minute, I would invite you
25 to do that now; if not, the Chamber would like to hear from you as soon as
2 MR. DI FAZIO: I can't do that now, Your Honours, at least in a
3 considered fashion, but I would need some time and I will look into that
4 and provide an answer to that as swiftly as possible.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
6 And we turn into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 6063-6064 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the semi-last issue you raised, where
7 you would like to respond to a subpoena request, would it be possible that
8 you -- yes, I'm not going into any further detail. Could you do that
9 by --
10 MR. EMMERSON: We could do it by Monday.
11 JUDGE ORIE: By Monday, that's fine. Finally, you asked -- yes.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm just raising this for the purpose of
13 discussion. If there's any further material arising from the comment that
14 Your Honours extracted from the lady's --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: -- e-mail, I'm sure the Defence probably -- and we
17 provide that, I'm sure that the Defence will probably want to digest --
18 look at that at least before saying anything about the matter.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the earlier your provided that --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that. But I am just saying that the
21 Defence would probably want to put off making any submissions until they
22 have had a chance to look at that material.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I take it the Defence is in the expectation that they
24 will receive that material not later than Friday, close of business.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll see how that develops.
2 Then, finally, you asked, Mr. Emmerson, in private session, and as
3 you rightly said was not done in private session, for five minutes to
4 address a general issue on the testimony of the witness whose testimony we
5 heard today. You'll be given an opportunity to do that for five minutes.
6 Please think it over to what extent what you are going to say is not
7 already on our minds. That is opinion evidence. The Chamber is well
8 aware of what is opinion and what is facts, and usually takes already into
9 account that opinion is not primarily to be given by a witness of fact.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I have a reason for raising it. I will deal with
11 it if I may.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You have five minutes.
13 Then we will, with apologises to interpreters, transcriber,
14 technicians, security, for being seven minutes late, we'll adjourn to
15 Monday, the 25th of June, Courtroom I, quarter past 2.00.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of
18 June, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.