Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9045

1 Tuesday, 9 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we continue, I think yesterday I gave some guidance to the

11 annexes up till number 53. I'd like to add a few observations.

12 Again, final decisions well-phrased are not yet there, but first

13 of all, Mr. Re, you provided the Chamber under tab 68 with a document in

14 English and a document in B/C/S. It doesn't seem to be the same document,

15 although the numbers, last four digits, start with 1899, first page. The

16 English translation is taken from U021; whereas, the original as presented

17 in this binder starts with U016 and then 1899.

18 MR. RE: And they have different dates as well.


20 MR. RE: The English has 15th of September and the other one is --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, different documents -- different documents often

22 have different dates.

23 MR. RE: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, the one is approximately twice as

25 thick as the other one.

Page 9046

1 I did your homework, Mr. Re. I checked whether it's all right in

2 e-court. In e-court it's okay. But I couldn't say that I was very amused

3 when I found out this late at night that I have to compare the originals

4 and see whether these are the same documents or not.

5 But therefore in e-court nothing needs to be changed, but in the

6 binders we'd very much like to have the original corresponding with the

7 English translation.

8 MR. RE: Now that it's been brought to our attention we, of

9 course, apologise for that oversight. But now that it's been brought for

10 our attention --


12 MR. RE: -- we will immediately rectify and provide the Judges

13 with a paper copy of what's in e-court.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, now 72. It was already brought to your

15 attention that the report, the first part is not translated into English.

16 That was brought to your attention in the response by, I think,

17 Mr. Emmerson's response. Have you received meanwhile for 72, the first

18 part, a translation?

19 MR. RE: I will make an immediate inquiry.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, because the response dates already --

21 since you just said once now brought to our attention. This was brought

22 to your attention in the response by Mr. Emmerson. He says part of the

23 translation is missing and that was last week when he filed that response.

24 Or --

25 MR. RE: Again --

Page 9047

1 JUDGE ORIE: It was not a response. It was the motion.

2 MR. RE: Again, it's something we just overlooked and --


4 MR. RE: -- in the paper here.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then in addition to a few -- yesterday I said

6 something about the hesitation of the Chamber. And, again, I apologise

7 for not being in a position to -- to find time to deliberate on all

8 matters, to reach final conclusions with all Judges where reading takes us

9 till rather late at night.

10 Yesterday, especially in relation to 17 -- annex 17, annex 18, and

11 annex 25, I expressed our hesitations to admit that into evidence. One of

12 the important reasons being that major portions of these annexes deal with

13 the acts and the conduct of, in that case, Mr. Brahimaj mainly.

14 Now, I noticed and -- that in annex 61, page 7 and page 8, we find

15 also references, although not being the -- I would say the -- the main

16 portion of the document, but on page 7 it goes to the acts and the conduct

17 of the accused Ramush Haradinaj as a participant in attacks on MUP members

18 at four specified locations; similarly, at the top of page 8, you'll find

19 specific reference to act and conduct of a person by the name Toger.

20 Annex 62 - and perhaps I should have mentioned for 61 the MFI

21 number, which was P993.

22 62, P994, on page 5 we find at the top of the page specific

23 references to Toger liquidating a Serbian prisoner who was detained in the

24 village of Dujak. So, therefore, rather specific act and conduct of a

25 person by the name of Toger.

Page 9048

1 63 to some extent repeats what we find in 61.

2 If I would take you to page 3, there we find again Ramush

3 participated in attacks on MUP members and the same locations and Toger

4 throwing bodies into the Radonjic Canal we find further down.

5 So these are very specific reference to acts and conduct of the

6 accused. So at least for those portions, you could not be surprised if we

7 would not admit that as evidence through this witness, through these

8 documents.

9 This may serve as guidance for you for the remainder of the

10 testimony of this witness. And then I take it that we'll receive the 68,

11 the right original, and that we receive the translation of - what was it -

12 the first part of 72.

13 Then finally, one observation: For -- for the next witness, I

14 think there was an application, Mr. Re, for adding documents to the

15 exhibit list. I think two documents.

16 Mr. Guy-Smith has drawn the attention of the Chamber to the fact

17 that most of these annexes were not on the exhibit list. And I wonder

18 what explains the different approach in a specific application for two

19 documents to be added to the exhibit list for the next witness; whereas, I

20 think almost all of the annexes here not appear on the witness list and no

21 specific application to add them.

22 MR. RE: The difference is that the witness here, Mr. Stijovic --


24 MR. RE: -- is well-placed to explain the source and the origin

25 of all the documents which he has personally selected from going through

Page 9049

1 the Operation Krug documents provided by Serbian State Security. He went

2 through the whole lot, read them in Serbian in his office, and pulled out

3 relevant ones to his testimony.

4 The next one is a lay witness and the two particular statements

5 are not the witness's but MUP documents and we considered it to be within

6 a different class and in light with the Trial Chamber's earlier ruling as

7 to classes of documents.

8 It's just a judgement made --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's the introduction of a new criteria, I'm

10 afraid, that if the witness selects himself the exhibits that there's no

11 need to apply for adding them to the witness -- to the exhibit list then.

12 But let's -- I didn't hear clearly, Mr. Guy-Smith, that for those reasons

13 you wanted to exclude these documents from evidence. But at least it's a

14 procedural issue which seems to bother you considerably.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, in fact it is, and something that I -- that

16 I raised early on because of the concern that we had with regard not only

17 to the issue of -- of notice but the issue to adequately prepare for the

18 case and the cross-examination of those witnesses.


20 MR. GUY-SMITH: That come -- that come to the Chamber.

21 As a matter of fact, I would seek to exclude any documents that

22 are not a part of a 65 ter application.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you seeking or you would seek?

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, let's -- I am seeking, to make life easy.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber will see what to do with this

Page 9050

1 briefly introduced request.

2 Mr. Emmerson.

3 MR. EMMERSON: May I mention briefly that in respect of the

4 documents that the Prosecution proposes to adduce through the next witness

5 and that is the subject of the application that Your Honour has just

6 referred to, the Defence will be opposing the admission of those documents

7 through that witness and indeed objecting to certain portions of the

8 witness's 92 ter statement. We have a written objection which is to be

9 filed within the next hour. It won't be filed in the form of a formal

10 motion because of the scope of it, being relatively narrow and a matter

11 that could be dealt with in the form of an out-of-court meeting if Your

12 Honour thought that appropriate, but it should be available to the Trial

13 Chamber and the Prosecution within the next hour or so.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: And that is -- that is a matter that is joined by

16 certainly the Balaj team. It's a matter we're trying to expedite in a

17 fashion to have -- it's simply come to you by -- from one party, as

18 opposed to three parties, but we join in the specific concerns that have

19 been raised.

20 MR. HARVEY: As do we, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Well, at this moment --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not insist on the formal motion on

24 these matters and chooses a -- or at least accepts that the Defence

25 chooses a very practical way of dealing with the matter as long as it is

Page 9051

1 transparent in the transcript what has happened.

2 Now, I have one final observation to make. I'm just trying to

3 find the relevant document. Yes.

4 Mr. Re, if you'd look at 54. 54 says that it is an unofficial

5 translation. I think the attention has been drawn to that as well by the

6 Defence.

7 I wondered, the person who made that unofficial translation, do we

8 have meanwhile a -- an official one or -- because the -- the use of the

9 language is rather surprising. It's sometimes almost phonetic in -- for

10 example, if you look at the third line under the statement, it says:

11 "Regarding this matter" which ...

12 "We are not aloud" in the fourth line from the bottom of the

13 first large paragraph, "aloud," a-l-o-u-d, rather than a-l-l-o-w-e-d.

14 It's a very special way of treating the English language. And I

15 wondered -- it's full of that kind of, well, funny spelling, if I could

16 say so.

17 And -- and, of course, that raises some questions as to the

18 quality of the translation as such. I don't know who made the

19 translation, but I've serious concerns about it.

20 MR. RE: I, of course, hear what you say. But I've -- I have to

21 make inquiries. I don't know whether it's been officially translated. I

22 would guess not. It's a resources issue.


24 MR. RE: We had to get these ones translated internally within the

25 Office of the Prosecutor because of the --

Page 9052

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I do understand. But when I read

2 it, I see that apart from that it's announced as an unofficial

3 translation, that it is a translation which immediately shows major flaws

4 in the use of the English language and then perhaps some proactive

5 approach might have been appropriate.

6 I've drawn your attention to it. The translation needs -- "O.V.",

7 I do not know what "O.V." means. "Unofficial translation by O.V." at the

8 top of the page.

9 MR. RE: I'm not sure I'm looking at the same document. What's

10 the -- you said 54.

11 JUDGE ORIE: 54, yes, report. Annex 54, which it is statement

12 given by Izet Zenuni taken on the 12th of August.

13 MR. RE: Oh, I see.


15 MR. RE: Yes. Yes.


17 MR. RE: Well, we'll request an official translation. It's not

18 a -- it's not a difficulty.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

20 Then are you ready to continue your examination-in-chief of

21 Mr. Stijovic?

22 MR. RE: Yes, I am.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Stijovic

24 into the courtroom.

25 MR. RE: Just in relation to --

Page 9053


2 MR. RE: While the witness is coming, annex 71, which is MFI

3 P1003, inquiries have revealed that there is no translation of the report.

4 The translation was requested only of the statement. But we will

5 request -- request a translation of the report as well.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or do not tender the report. That's another

7 solution to it.

8 MR. RE: I will make that decision --


10 MR. RE: -- a little bit later, if Your Honour doesn't mind.

11 But, Your Honour, can I just note that the time is slipping by.

12 It's almost 9.25 -- 9.24, in terms of my being able to get the -- elicit

13 the information I need to finish the witness's evidence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I do understand. But at the same time,

15 Mr. Re, some of these issues should not have taken time in court, as a

16 matter of fact, but should have been resolved out of court even without

17 intervention of the Chamber. But I'm aware of it, that you lost 25

18 minutes, partly due to the Prosecution itself and partly due not to the

19 Prosecution.

20 MR. RE: My concern is, of course, getting to the stage where

21 there is information I need to get from the witness and I just can't get

22 it out because of the time. That's my concern.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. My concern is precision by the

24 parties in what they present to the Chamber at this moment, and, of

25 course, also your concern. That goes without saying.

Page 9054

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, good morning. I'd like to remind you

3 that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the

4 beginning of your testimony. Mr. Re will now continue his

5 examination-in-chief.

6 Mr. Re, please proceed.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stijovic.

11 A. Good morning. Good morning, Your Honours.

12 Q. I want you to turn to paragraph 37 of your -- of your statement

13 which you have with you. It refers to the ambush of a police patrol on

14 the 28th of February, 1998 in Likoshan in Drenica. It was one of those

15 matters which the Trial Chamber requested you to give some evidence about.

16 And for the Trial Chamber's benefit, I refer you to -- refer the Chamber

17 to Jakup Krasniqi's statement and annex 8, which relates to communique

18 number 43 in Mr. Krasniqi's statement and his testimony.

19 Now, my question to you, Mr. Stijovic, is: What was your source

20 of information -- tell the Trial Chamber about your information about your

21 information about the ambush on the police patrol in Likoshan in Drenica

22 on the 28th of February in 1998.

23 A. The first piece of information I received about this event was

24 through a pager. At that point in time, I was in Decani and on a pager I

25 received information that a terrorist attack was launched in Likoshan and

Page 9055

1 that I had to return to Pristina as a matter of urgency.

2 As I returned to my workplace, the first reports from the police

3 had already arrived about the event, the incident that took place in the

4 area. I mentioned this incident yesterday. This was an ambush set for a

5 police patrol.

6 In essence, this was merely a decoy -- or rather, a point of

7 attracting more groups of police force and four police officers were

8 killed on that occasion.

9 Q. What was your information about who carried out the attack?

10 A. The information we received from one policeman who was wounded and

11 another who survived the attack, and from those who came to assist them,

12 was that they were ambushed. They had been driving a Lada Niva vehicle at

13 a bend, at an intersection, they came across an ambush and gunfire was

14 opened on them.

15 In the exchange of fire, they realised that they were up against a

16 large group of armed men with masked faces. That was the first

17 information we received. Fresh police forces were deployed to that area

18 and they conducted searches there.

19 Q. All right. Did you receive any information about who these -- who

20 the large group of armed men with masked faces were?

21 A. To be quite precise, I have to explain this in a couple of

22 sentences, if you'll allow me.

23 From mid-1997, we organised covert TV recording of the facility of

24 Jashari compound. From the police station that was immediately above the

25 Jashari compound, we had placed a TV camera there for surveillance, and it

Page 9056

1 was from our premises in Srbica that we were able to follow what was going

2 on there.

3 Immediately before this incident and after the activities

4 resulting from there, we registered a large group of men, including

5 Jashari, leaving the Jashari compound. We recognised on this video

6 recording his brother. There was Sami Lushtaku [phoen] there too, as well

7 as two men from the Kodra [phoen] family.

8 Several hours after this attack was launched, the same group of

9 men returned to the Jashari family house, where they fired shots in the

10 air to express their general celebratory atmosphere.

11 By tying up the information we had -- and I apologise once again

12 for both yesterday and today, but I tend to speed up when I'm deep in

13 thought. This secret TV surveillance was the means of providing us with

14 the most evidence as to who and how organised these actions.

15 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Page 11, Line 21, the witness explains, I think,

18 that following the exchange of fire fresh police forces were deployed to

19 that area and conducted searches there.

20 I wonder if -- if the witness might explain where he means the

21 searches were conducted.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It will certainly assist in a better

23 understanding. At the same time, I urge the parties not to intervene in

24 the cross-examination -- in the examination of the other party to the

25 extent possible.

Page 9057

1 You've heard that Mr. Emmerson would very much like to know who

2 conducted -- who conducted searches where exactly. Could you please

3 answer that question.

4 MR. RE: Can this be displayed in Sanction while that's coming.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police sent additional forces

6 there to assist the police forces that were ambushed. Upon the arrival of

7 the police force on -- in an APC, as is customary, the police engaged in

8 searches in -- of the general area. These are the -- the surrounding

9 villages around Likoshan and they went also in search of the perpetrators.

10 These were the villages around Likoshan and Likoshan itself.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Were the people observed coming and going from the Jashari

14 compound and then firing shots -- firing shots in the air expressing

15 general celebratory atmosphere, were they KLA people?

16 A. Yes. Adem Jashari was a prominent member of the KLA, and the

17 group around him had a decisive impact in the growth and thriving of the

18 KLA in that general area at the time.

19 Q. The next sentence, you said -- you referred to several more

20 attacks in Srbica municipality and elsewhere took place thereafter,

21 resulting in the deaths of several policemen and destruction of property.

22 Now, if you're referring to the KLA being the perpetrator, please

23 tell the Trial Chamber what you know about those attacks.

24 A. After the searches conducted by the police, after the

25 perpetrators -- systematic attacks were organised against the police

Page 9058

1 stations and the police forces in the general area where the ambush in

2 Likoshan was organised. The -- with the primary purpose of spreading out

3 the forces of the police, attacks were launched in the area of Klina,

4 Djakovica, and Decani too.

5 Q. Can you give the Trial Chamber some facts, what you know about

6 these attacks and examples of these particular attacks you referred to in

7 your statement.

8 A. I can't give you a specific example now, but it's absolutely sure

9 that in the attacks that were launched on the 2nd of March, 1998 that the

10 police courts in Celopek, Klincina, and Rznic were under constant fire.

11 By looking at the time line of these events, one can clearly arrive at

12 this conclusion. Automatic weapon fire, sniper fire on the police forces

13 in the area, this is the information I have.

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask what you mean by "constant fire"? How

15 constant?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we had information that from the

17 1st of January through to the 30th of November, 1998, 1.486 attacks were

18 launched and organised, then we can safely conclude that there were around

19 two to three attacks daily in the area of Kosovo.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes that the figure could have

21 been 486. The interpreter isn't sure.

22 The witness said: "However, as time went by, the attacks grew in

23 intensity."

24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: When -- I know it's statistics, please, but you

25 were referring to the 2nd of March.

Page 9059

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke of the 2nd of March, Your

2 Honour, and said that the attacks were carried out in the area of Glina,

3 Djakovica, and Decani. These were the attacks where police squads were

4 targets, as well as the family homes of the Serbs living in the area. The

5 objective of these attacks was, as far as we were able to conclude and as

6 far as I, as the chief of analysis, was able to conclude and was able to

7 report to the competent bodies, was to spread out the police force, to

8 divert their focus onto other areas rather than to the areas where the --

9 the attack was to be launched in effect at Likoshan. This was all --

10 these -- there were families living in the area. There were the police

11 station at Klincina, at Celopek. I can guarantee that some of the police

12 stations, such as in -- the ones in Celopek, Klincina, Rznic, that they

13 were under constant attack. When I say that, I mean that we had reports

14 of gunfire and attacks on the police force almost on a daily basis.

15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. Mr. Re, please.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. Can you please turn to annex 35 in your bundle there, which is

18 Exhibit MFI P96 -- sorry -- I'm sorry, 34 is what I wanted to look at.

19 966. It's a KLA communique, number 42. And you reference -- reference

20 that in paragraph 35 of your statement.

21 There's just one -- one portion I wish to take you to. It's a KLA

22 communique published in Zeri i Kosoves on the 5th of March, 1998. The date

23 of the communique is the 27th of February, 1998.

24 In the English, it says: "On the 13th of February, 1990 -- I

25 should say 1998. The original says "1998". Mustafe Kurti, a collaborator

Page 9060

1 with the occupier was liquidated."

2 For the Trial Chamber's benefit, that's also referenced in

3 Mr. Krasniqi's statement, at P328, annex 7, the same document published in

4 Pristina Vojka [phoen] on the 25th of February, 1998, at annex 7 of his

5 statement.

6 Can you tell the Trial Chamber anything about the liquidation of

7 the collaborator, Mustafe Kurti?

8 A. I can't tell you anything more specific about this person. I can

9 tell you about the murder of Desimir Lasic, though. I can tell you about

10 the report on his murder.

11 This person was killed. Now, why, I really can't remember now or

12 explain. I can see in this report the name of Desimir Lasic. I can tell

13 you who this is about.

14 Q. The communique describes him as "criminal Desimir Lasic, a close

15 collaborator of Arkan, and it says: "On the 23rd of January, 1998, our

16 units carried out an attack on him."

17 What can you tell the Trial Chamber about that?

18 A. It is absolutely untrue that he was a close collaborator of

19 Arkan's. He was a functionary in the local authorities. He was a member

20 of the executive board of the Assembly of Srbica. He was a prominent

21 public figure, and I believe that he was killed in Josanica.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness's other microphone be switched

23 on, the interpreters note.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After this -- this was a village

25 near Klina.

Page 9061

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

3 I believe that he was killed in Josanica. After that - and this

4 has to do with the latter part of my yesterday's evidence - the police

5 erected a check-point in the village of Josanica.

6 This village lies along the Klina-Srbica road. It's absolutely

7 untrue that this is a criminal or a close collaborator. He was a serious

8 man of education, even an assemblyman of Srbica. He was described in this

9 way only because he was a Serb -- or rather, he was killed only because he

10 was a Serb.

11 Q. Can you go to the next annex, please, which is 36 -- I'm sorry,

12 35. The wrong one. It's MFI P967. It's a State Security report of the

13 3rd of March, 1998, described as an official note. It relates to the Krug

14 operative action. I just want to take you to one part of that, and that's

15 referring to an attack on the 1st of March, 1998 at around 1600 hours.

16 It's page 2 in the English: "Siptar terrorists opened fire from

17 automatic weapons on the vehicle of Lada type and killed Slobodan

18 Prascevic from Jakovica who had only recently a retiree of the MUP of the

19 Republic of Serbia."

20 What do you know about the attack on the Slobodan Prascevic?

21 A. Could I ask the Trial Chamber to move into closed session for a

22 moment?

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session. That means that the

24 audience will not hear your testimony.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.

Page 9062

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Page 9063











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Page 9064

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22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24 Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE:

Page 9065

1 Q. Can you please move to paragraph 41. It's another statement the

2 Trial Chamber -- sorry, another paragraph the Trial Chamber requires more

3 information from you about. And this is referring to the attack on the

4 Haradinaj compound on the 24th of March, 1998.

5 Please be aware the Trial Chamber has heard a fair amount of

6 evidence about this.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have heard a lot of evidence. Mr. Re, you

8 say the Chamber would like to hear more. I think that the Chamber

9 expressed that on the basis of the evidence already heard, one could

10 wonder whether it assists the Chamber to hear secondhand hearsay on the

11 matter in addition to what is already known.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Okay. Can you please turn to paragraph 42 of your statement. And

14 I want to take you to annex 44, which is Exhibit MFI P976, which is an

15 official note of the Prizren State Security Department sent on the 30th of

16 March, 1998.

17 I want to take you to the first paragraph, in which you say: "The

18 Djakovica" -- which it says, sorry, "The Djakovica SUP public security

19 department sent us operative piece of information stating that about 200

20 militarily trained well-equipped members of a terrorist organisation are

21 in the area of the Jablanica village. The organisation consists of

22 individuals from the village of Jablanica and neighbouring villages, as

23 well as some persons from -- who found a refuge there after the MUP action

24 in Drenica. At the helm of this organisation is a terrorist staff

25 situated in the village mosque in the centre of the village with a fixed

Page 9066

1 radio station."

2 I just want to ask you about the source of the information which

3 has gone into that official note, and in particular about the estimate of

4 200 militarily trained and well-equipped members of a terrorist

5 organisation.

6 A. The official note is an authentic document of the State Security

7 Service, compiled on the basis of the daily report of the Djakovica SUP.

8 This is information that the public security service collected through

9 fieldwork on the activities and actions of the KLA in the area of

10 Jablanica.

11 In essence, the information contained therein was not fully

12 consistent with the information that the State Security Service had, but

13 it was nothing new to us.

14 As concerns the -- the estimate of 200 militarily trained and

15 well-equipped members, at that point in time we contemplated the figure of

16 50 to 150.

17 Let me tell you this about the figure: It's a very relative

18 matter in this case, because the KLA already at that point in time

19 developed its organisation at two levels. It developed operative corps

20 containing the small number of extremists who were together every day and

21 did not disperse, and broader territorial grassroots organisation made up

22 of their supporters in the various villages where the groups were active.

23 The figure provided by the Djakovica SUP, in my opinion, is

24 relatively higher than the number that the State Security Service

25 considered.

Page 9067

1 Q. What was the difference in the sources the State Security was

2 relying upon vis-a-vis those relied upon by the Djakovica SUP and why do

3 you assess the State Security sources to be more accurate?

4 A. Based on the substance of work of the State Security Service and

5 public security service, it is clear that the State Security Service had

6 much more detailed knowledge about Albanian terrorism. The sources of the

7 State Security Service were solely the sources that were involved in the

8 KLA activities or the persons who in some way were close to the KLA

9 establishment and were able to get direct information from the spot.

10 As for the sources used by public security service, they gathered

11 information about activities on the ground through their own sources,

12 which mostly focused on dealing with crime, which is the main focus of

13 public security service.

14 So it means that their sources were the people who, due to their

15 criminal activities, to their criminal misconduct, had contact with

16 police.

17 As for the State Security Service, we recruited people

18 specifically in order to infiltrate them into the terrorist establishment.

19 As for the regular police, the public security service, they had different

20 sources and the sources were from that area.

21 Another thing that we need to point out is that the information

22 was verified by State Security Service on a much more detailed level as

23 compared to the verification of information by public security service.

24 And you can see that through many of the documents. You can see that

25 public security service forwarded its information to the State Security

Page 9068

1 Service to be further verified and analysed.

2 Q. On the issue of assessment of the strength of the KLA, can I take

3 you to annex 51, which is MFI P982. And that's a State Security

4 Department official note regarding a preliminary interview dated the 15th

5 of June, 1998.

6 And in that document - that's at page 4 of the English, which I

7 think is at page 3 of the Serbian - it says: "The source states that

8 there are around 600 armed members of DTG in the villages of Babaloc,

9 Gramocelj, and Glodjane. During a recent attack on the police members,

10 they were joined by 1400 terrorists from the neighbouring villages."

11 I want you to comment on the accuracy of that particular figure

12 based upon the information available to you at the time and the sources

13 available to you.

14 A. This conversation and this document, they were made in June of

15 1998 and they deal with the events which took place in March of that year.

16 So from March to June, as I have said yesterday, as time went by, as the

17 spring arrived, there was an increase in the delivery of terrorist

18 equipment and arrival of terrorists from Albania to Kosovo. Their numbers

19 kept increasing. So from March onwards in Jablanica the number that we

20 had at the State Security Service was between 50 and 150.

21 As time went by, the number increased, because Jablanica, together

22 with Glodjane, became logistics centre to which KLA members from abroad

23 and from other areas of Kosovo and Metohija came and from there they moved

24 to Albania.

25 So the number of over 1.000 terrorists, that figure in my mind is

Page 9069

1 accurate, if we are referring to June.

2 Q. Can you please move to paragraph 48 and annex 55 of your

3 statement, which is a statement of a person whose name I won't use

4 publicly dated -- taken on the 12th of August, 1998, an official -- and an

5 official record of the interview dated the 18th of August, 1998.

6 The particular part I want to take you to, I think is at page 7 of

7 the Serbian but is at page 9 of the English, and it refers to, at the top

8 of page 9, the first paragraph, some names and a faction -- this faction

9 of the KLA has its -- has its supporters in the municipality of Decani

10 with chief holds in the villages of Istinic, Gornji Strellc, Donji

11 Strellc, Belle [phoen], Papracane, Dubovik. In order to recruit as many

12 KLA supporters as possible, the so-called government of the Republic of

13 Kosovo established barracks in the village of Papracane, the commanders in

14 the barracks at Rrustem Tetaj and Tahir Zemaj, former JNA officers."

15 Is that particular passage referring to what's known as the FARK?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Just underneath that, there's another passage which says: "Since

18 two months ago, training for special units, Black Eagles at Crni Orlovi,

19 has been provided on this training ground. There are about 50 or 60

20 members of this unit there. Ibrahim Ukadaj [phoen] from Crnobreg

21 municipality of Deqan is the head trainer. He's aided by five or six

22 former JNA officers."

23 And he's talking about a staff and a military training ground in

24 the village of Papaz about 15 kilometres away from the headquarters in the

25 mountains.

Page 9070

1 Is that the same Black Eagles as the one headed by Idriz Balaj, or

2 Toger, or a different one?

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, apart from the fact that the question is

4 leading and -- and there's at this point no particular evidence with

5 regard to the statement just made, but the damage has been done. He could

6 ask an entirely different question.

7 MR. RE: This man was the chief analyst of the DB.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: It doesn't matter whether he was or not. The

9 question is -- the question as asked is improper.

10 MR. RE: Well --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re -- Mr. Re, a leading question is a question

12 which includes a matter not yet established. And from what I understand,

13 the implicit factual statement that there was an organisation, Black

14 Eagles, headed by a specific person has not yet been established through

15 this witness. And to that extent, it's leading.

16 MR. RE: Well, it's in his statement at paragraph 50, and it's

17 also in Mr. Balaj's pre-trial brief at paragraph 14 where it's on the

18 record in his own pleading that Mr. Balaj was the leader of the Black

19 Eagles. It's in the witness's own statement. I'm merely asking the

20 witness if it's the same organisation he's referring to that's being

21 referred to in that document. That can't be leading. It's already on the

22 record.

23 JUDGE ORIE: In paragraph 50.

24 MR. RE: It says, paragraph 50: "Our intelligence indicated that

25 Balaj, aka Toger, commanded a KLA rapid-reaction unit called the Black

Page 9071

1 Eagles." I'm merely asking if it's the same one --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I missed that. I missed that. That is part of

3 the 92 ter statement. So under those circumstances, you could ask the

4 witness whether when he referred to the organisation he learned about

5 through his intelligence is the same one as he just referred to.

6 MR. RE:

7 Q. You heard the question, Mr. Stijovic. Please answer it for the

8 Trial Chamber.

9 A. This is not the same organisation. If you need additional

10 explanation, I can provide it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Were there two Black Eagles? Is that what you're going to tell

14 us? No, that is leading. I'll accept that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please explain, then.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the armed formations

17 organised by Albanian separatists, there were two groups. And there

18 existed great rivalry between them, which exists to this day and has

19 repercussions in Kosovo and Metohija even nowadays. NPK supported the KLA

20 and TSK supported the FARK, which was the government of Bukoshi. The

21 popularity that KLA had in that area at the time and their strengthening

22 position was such that it bothered the Democratic League of Kosovo and

23 their leader, Bukoshi. In that sense, those forces, together with the

24 assistance and encouragement from the government of Albania, tried by

25 means of FARK to limit the power of KLA or rather, to put the KLA under

Page 9072

1 their control. And that was the essential rivalry that existed between

2 these two organisations.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I feel there may have been a cross-wire in the

5 question and answer, because the witness is being asked about two

6 organisations, that is, subgroups of units by the names of the Black

7 Eagles, and he's answered questions about the KLA and FARK.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The one does not necessarily exclude the other,

9 but it needs, certainly, clarification.

10 Let's -- perhaps, Mr. Re, you seek this clarification.

11 MR. RE:

12 Q. Was there more than one group called the Black Eagles?

13 A. In those groups in Kosovo and Metohija, it was quite customary to

14 use such names, so there were many groups with similar identical names in

15 the area of Drenica and Podujevo.

16 In this specific case that you asked me about, this group, the

17 Black Eagles, was in Rznic within the KLA under the command of Balaj and

18 then there was another group called the Black Eagles in Albania in the

19 village of Bataj and that group belonged to FARK.

20 Q. And is that -- the second one, is that the one referred to in that

21 official note I just referred you to?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, moving to paragraph 50 of your statement, which you provide

24 some information about Toger, your intelligence that he commanded a KLA

25 rapid reaction unit, and you described the uniforms, their insignia, their

Page 9073

1 arming. The Trial Chamber requires some information about one sentence

2 there in relation to your intelligence, where you've said that he was

3 widely regarded - that's Idriz Balaj - as being under the direct command

4 of Ramush Haradinaj.

5 The Trial Chamber wants to know how you can say that, what's the

6 source of your information, the quality of your information, and the

7 reliability of it.

8 A. Hundreds of documents passed through my hands, documents obtained

9 through live sources in which there is very accurate and detailed

10 information about the Black Eagles and the relationship between Balaj and

11 Ramush Haradinaj.

12 Idriz Balaj during that period of time was basically a bodyguard

13 of Ramush Haradinaj. He and his group were constantly by the side of

14 Ramush Haradinaj. Idriz Balaj in that period of time, in late March,

15 April, and early May, when the local staffs of the KLA were established in

16 villages, would always accompany Ramush Haradinaj, and his presence and

17 the number of his forces were such that they represented a sort of a

18 threat to Albanian population in those villages. The presence of

19 Idriz Balaj and armed people around him enabled Ramush Haradinaj to take

20 part in establishment of terrorist groups in the villages around Glodjane

21 and to directly affect the selection of leaders and staffs of the KLA in

22 those villages.

23 Hundreds of documents passed through my hands detailing this and

24 the role of Balaj. He was a bodyguard of sorts, the right-hand man.

25 Q. The Chamber needs to know the sort of information you were

Page 9074

1 receiving and how you were able to assess its quality and reliability to

2 make the statement that Balaj was basically the bodyguard of Ramush

3 Haradinaj.

4 A. I will paraphrase some dozens of documents that I had in my hands.

5 Ramush Haradinaj would come to a certain village with a group -- with a

6 large group of people accompanying him. Alongside, right next to him, was

7 always Ramush Haradinaj or his brother -- rather, alongside was

8 Idriz Balaj or Daut Haradinaj.

9 In that village, they would call a meeting of prominent residents

10 where they would discuss the establishment of the KLA's staff. In that

11 context, the leading role in appointing and selecting the staff members

12 belonged to them, and the information that we received indicated that such

13 an activity over a period of time changed its nature in a way. In those

14 meetings, Ramush Haradinaj would typically ask the villagers to arm

15 themselves and to collect money, to raise money for weapons. Whoever was

16 able to provide money and also willy-nilly people gave money. There were

17 some people who were poor, who had to sell their livestock in order to

18 raise funds to buy weapons, because if they refused to take part in that

19 process of arming, they would have been ostracised in the village.

20 It is also important to stress that the weapons were bought in

21 Albania through some persons who basically turned this into a criminal

22 activity.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, now you -- you're explaining not only

24 the quality and the reliability of your sources but you continue to

25 explain what your sources told you.

Page 9075

1 Now, for example, selling your livestock. How many instances were

2 reported to you of selling livestock in order to be able to contribute

3 financially to the KLA?

4 So I'm not seeking whether it was cows or goats but how many

5 instances? Was it reported --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that any police leaders in

7 that area can give you exact numbers as to the information you're seeking.

8 The information that we had indicated that there were poor people

9 in basically every village.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But my question was: The frequency of such

11 reports, people selling livestock in order to contribute financially to

12 the KLA. Was there one such a case reported to you? Were there five?

13 Were there fifteen?

14 Of course, I'm not asking whether it was ten, eleven, or nine, but

15 whether it was an incident or whether it was frequent -- well, let's say,

16 10 to 20 such cases or were there 100 cases that were reported to you?

17 Could you give us an indication?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It certainly wasn't 100. We treated

19 this as a security phenomenon. And "phenomenon" means that we registered

20 between five and ten such cases.

21 A large number of Albanians didn't dare report a situation where

22 they were faced with a threat. We treated this as a registered security

23 phenomenon. That was our term for such instances.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, that raises a question. You are saying

25 that a large number of Albanians didn't dare report a situation where they

Page 9076

1 were faced with a threat. There are two possibilities: Either they did

2 not report because there was a threat or they didn't report because it

3 didn't happen. That's not easy to establish, I take it.

4 Would you please comment on that.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're quite right. If a leading

6 authority -- if a figure of authority says that this is no time for

7 politics but, rather, time for waging a war and if such a figure of

8 authority tells them that Albanians have to enter into a struggle, they

9 have to wage combat in order to gain freedom and liberation, then people

10 can either come up with opposing arguments showing that they disagree with

11 that, in which case that would possibly lead to a blood feud with other

12 Albanians. And people shied away from that. That was the typical course.

13 However, I agree with you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: This, at least in my understanding, does not lead to

15 a conclusion that a larger number of people sold their livestock in order

16 to financially contribute and did not dare to report that. That's --

17 that's quite a different conclusion. What you're describing, as a matter

18 of fact, is that there existed a situation and people were urged to

19 support war, not anything else.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. I want you to look at annexes 61, 62, and 63. Those are Exhibit

23 MFI P992 -- no, not 992. 993, 994, and 995 are the three. And they

24 relate to an interview with a source whose name I won't mention publicly,

25 but I'll just notify the Trial Chamber and the Defence that that

Page 9077

1 particular statement in annex 63, P995, is -- has a different -- a

2 slightly different translation or part of it in P921, which was marked for

3 identification on the 17th of September, 2007 in relation to the -- the

4 death of Rade Popadic and the police report there.

5 What I'm interested in - and the Trial Chamber has some concerns

6 about these three particular documents which are sourced -- referred to in

7 paragraph 50 of your statement - is the assessment of the statement of

8 this person and the reliability and the accuracy of it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Chamber said, as a matter of fact - let me

10 just check - whether -- and I refer to specific paragraphs -- whether this

11 is a suitable way of introducing this evidence in relation to those

12 matters.

13 MR. RE: Now, I appreciate that, but I wish to ask the witness

14 about the --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

16 MR. RE: -- the reliability of the particular component of the

17 statement.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the concern of the Chamber. But

19 nevertheless, if you'd like to further inquire into any facts in relation

20 to the reliability of this, you are entitled to do so.

21 Please proceed.

22 Mr. Emmerson.

23 MR. EMMERSON: I simply wanted to make the observation in respect

24 of these -- these particular annexes that they do concern and include

25 matters relating to both conduct alleged against the accused and charges

Page 9078

1 on the indictment. And may I therefore urge Mr. Re to confine his

2 questions to matters of fact rather than in the form in which the question

3 was just asked, a general appreciation of reliability.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, for other portions of the documents it

5 could be important for us to know or to get further information about the

6 reliability, which is a separate issue from whether specific acts of the

7 accused could be proven by this kind of documents. These are two

8 different matters.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm -- my fault. I didn't make my position

10 clear. It -- it's a question of establishing material information, rather

11 than assessments of a witness as to his reliability of a source as a

12 whole.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, please proceed.

14 MR. RE:

15 Q. How did the DB assess the reliability of the -- of the information

16 provided by this source? And by that I mean how reliable was this person?

17 What sort of contacts did the DB or State -- or the MUP have with him, had

18 he provided information in the past, et cetera?

19 A. Your Honours, on the first page, under the entry "Information

20 about the source," you can see at the bottom that it says: "Source

21 unreliable. Information verified -- or confirmed."

22 So the assessment of the State Security person -- of this person

23 as a source was that this source was unreliable. This qualification of

24 "unreliable" meant that sometimes this person provided accurate

25 information and sometimes inaccurate.

Page 9079

1 In this particular case, the information was confirmed through

2 other sources of the service.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let me just -- we are looking at this moment at

4 61, if I'm right?

5 Mr. Re.

6 MR. RE: Yes, I will clarify that.

7 Q. Can you just go back. You said a moment ago that it said

8 information -- "source unreliable. Information verified or confirmed."

9 Can you please look at the Serbian. The English translation

10 says: "Source unreliable- information unchecked." Can you just read the

11 Serbian words, just read the Serbian and they'll be translated.

12 A. It says here: "Source unreliable - information confirmed."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, there seems to be then an -- either a

14 translation error. Could we have P993, the B/C/S version on the screen.

15 MR. RE: Can that please not be displayed publicly as --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then not publicly but -- and could someone

17 see -- I take it that from a distance no one could read the -- what is on

18 the screen of the witness. At least, I couldn't read that from 4, 5, or 6

19 metres.

20 MR. RE: I could -- we could show it to the interpreters in the

21 booth, if it assists.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's on the screen already.

23 Could we zoom in the right, a little bit further down. Yes.

24 Are the interpreters -- can they see the line just read by the --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. It says: "Source unreliable - information

Page 9080

1 confirmed."

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we need a better translation for the first page

3 of this document.

4 Please proceed.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. You said a moment ago that -- excuse me -- in this particular

7 case, the information was confirmed through other sources of the service.

8 I want you to elaborate on that and tell the Trial Chamber about the

9 elaboration by other sources in the service and how that enabled you to

10 make your assessment that this particular information there was reliable.

11 A. A source is the person -- in this particular case, the source was

12 actively -- directly involved in the KLA activities and a lot of the

13 information provided by him was already known to us. It had to do with

14 the KLA activities in the territory of Albania and also the support that

15 it received from other structures. That was already familiar to us.

16 We also knew about the activities of the KLA in Krusevac village,

17 Glodjane, and in other parts, as referred to by this source.

18 We also had information that in June, in mid-June of 1998 two

19 persons were abducted, Vucic Vukovic and Novica Vujisic. They were

20 abducted near Zlopek, that's a village, and a Muslim, Izet Gutic was

21 abducted with them. We had this information from before. These people

22 are listed as missing. Vujisic and Vukovic were relatives and Vukovic's

23 property was stolen. I'm now speaking based on my recollections.

24 So this statement provided by him was consistent with information

25 we had already had. This person was sued or put on trial. A statement

Page 9081

1 was provided by him pursuant to the Law on Criminal Procedure, Article

2 151/2, and proceedings against him were instituted. An indictment was

3 issued, and so on. I didn't really follow what happened to him afterwards

4 in court.

5 Q. There's a particular passage in the witness's statement I want to

6 take you to, and that's at page 3 of the English in Exhibit MFI P993, and

7 that's the reference to the -- it says: "I also know about a month ago --

8 a month and a half ago Nasim Haradinaj and his group amongst whom there

9 was a certain Velium [phoen] from Rastavica captured two policemen in

10 Rastavica who were bringing food to Junik. The captured policemen were

11 taken to the staff in Glodjane and following their questioning they were

12 executed by a terrorist with the nickname Toger. Toger threw their bodies

13 into the Radonjic Canal."

14 "Toger's real identity is known only by Ramush Haradinaj and he

15 continuously keeps company with him. Toger trains the special police unit

16 in Glodjane which has 20 members. Listening to him speak, his accent

17 leads me to believe he's from the area of Drenica."

18 Now, what -- you said a moment ago that other sources had

19 confirmed the information in the statement was reliable. What were the

20 sources -- did the other sources confirm that particular piece of

21 information was reliable? And if so, what were those -- what were those

22 sources? What did they tell you? And how did you know it was reliable?

23 A. As far as the abduction of the police officers from Sabac SUP is

24 concerned, Popovic and Jovanovic - I believe his first name is Nikola - I

25 believe that they were abducted on the 24th of May on their road to Junik.

Page 9082

1 They were carrying food supplies. They were part of the logistics.

2 Q. The Chamber has heard evidence about that, the abduction. What

3 I'm interested in is the information about Toger's involvement in it after

4 the event.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before -- before we do that, Mr. Re, one of

6 your previous questions included whether this source had been given

7 information before. That was part of your question as an element of

8 reliability. Could you tell us whether this source, was this the first

9 time this source gave information or did he give information at any prior

10 occasion?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this was the first time. This

12 person was arrested by the police, and through the investigation the

13 information was reached.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So the statement was given when he was still under

15 arrest?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. Did you -- did you speak to this person yourself, the person who

20 was arrested and gave the statement?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Do you know those who did take the statement?

23 A. If there are signatures in the document, I can try to identify

24 them. Evidently, since this is the location, we can see it here, I

25 suppose it was the operatives of the Pec DB who talked to him.

Page 9083

1 Q. The signature's on the last page of the statement.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that that's the --

3 MR. RE: Authorised officials.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Last -- could you guide me to --

5 MR. RE: In the Serbian, it's on page 3 of MFI P995. In the

6 English, on page 5.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It very much looks as if that's the signature of the

8 person who gave the statement, rather than the person who took the

9 statement.

10 MR. RE: There are three signatures there. One says --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Where? Let me just -- we are still on 61?

12 MR. RE: No, we're on 63.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologise. Yes.

14 Yes, please.

15 MR. RE:

16 Q. Can you just look at the last page of annex 63, which is MFI P995.

17 There are three signatures there. Do you know the -- the two people who

18 signed underneath the deponent of the statement?

19 A. I can't tell exactly who the operatives were, although this first

20 signature -- we had an operative working in Pec whose first and last name

21 started with M.C. Those were his initials.

22 We can see that the signature is quite short and it is possible

23 that this is the operative I'm talking about. I can't identify the second

24 signature, though.

25 Q. Did -- you said you have his initials. Do you know his name? Are

Page 9084

1 you able to tell us his name?

2 A. I can. It's not a problem at all. But I can't claim that he was

3 the person who signed the document, but he was the only one who had these

4 initials, M.C. Milo Calic. He was the State Security operative in Pec.

5 "M," for Milo; "C," for Calic. We can see that the last name is quite

6 short and this led me to believe that this was him.

7 Q. Now, just going back to my earlier question. I'm interested in

8 the accuracy or the reliability of the statement there about the

9 involvement of Toger in disposing of bodies in the canal. Did you have

10 any information to confirm or to verify or to corroborate the information

11 in that witness's statement? And if so, what was it?

12 A. Initially, the State Security Service had great difficulties in

13 identifying Toger, because in the KLA staff in Glodjane and in

14 Ramush Haradinaj's presence there were two persons who used the nicknames

15 of Tigar and Toger. These names were oftentimes mixed up in the reports

16 that we received.

17 After a while, we concluded that under the pseudonym Tigar there

18 was a person with the last name of Nimani. I believe that he was the

19 commander of the military police within the staff of the KLA led by

20 Ramush Haradinaj. We concluded that Toger was a person exclusively

21 connected with special operations. This was the person who had taken part

22 in war activities in the former Yugoslavia. His accent indicated that he

23 was not from Metohija but from the area of Drenica, and after a while --

24 .

25 Q. The bodies in the canal. That's what I'm asking you about. Did

Page 9085

1 you have any verifying information? If so, what was it?

2 A. I read a report or a statement. I can't really pinpoint what it

3 was. I know that this report clearly indicated that Toger personally

4 killed the Vujosevic sisters in late June. These were two elderly

5 sisters. And that --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I'm interposing an objection at this point

8 because of the vague nature of the information that's being given.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, having read a report, I don't know what it is

10 any more, is not a very solid basis for ...

11 I'm looking at the clock. Mr. Re, you said you lost 25 minutes.

12 We are already ten minutes past 10.30, which is the usual time in which we

13 have a break. So therefore, to wrap up, that would be 15 more minutes and

14 then you would have been compensated for all of the 25 minutes. Is that

15 correctly understood?

16 MR. RE: Your Honour's calculations are spot on, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means that you have another 15 minutes

18 after the break.

19 We'll have a break until five minutes past 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.

23 MR. RE: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Stijovic, we have limited time, so please keep your answers

25 nice and short.

Page 9086

1 Before the break, I was asking you about additional information or

2 verifying information connecting Toger - that's Idriz Balaj - with bodies

3 in the canal.

4 Now, can you just please move to paragraph 57 of your statement in

5 which you refer to the DB having information about the killings and the

6 kidnappings of civilians and their disposal in Lake Radonjic canal before

7 the Serb forces retook the area by force.

8 Then you say: "For example, DB Pec report dated 26th of June,

9 1998."

10 Now, we've just referred to that one, the interview with a

11 suspect, and that was in Exhibit P933 -- sorry, 993, 994, and 995.

12 My question is: Is the information in paragraph 57, is that the

13 additional verifying information you are referring to or is there other

14 information which isn't in your statement which connects Toger with bodies

15 in the canal?

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, are you just referring to the first

17 sentences of -- of that?

18 MR. RE: No, the entire paragraph, everything that's in the

19 paragraph.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --

21 MR. RE: The question is whether there's anything additional to

22 that.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the question as phrased is somewhat

24 misleading.

25 MR. RE: I would hate to mislead the witness. If it's unclear,

Page 9087

1 perhaps Mr. Stijovic could tell me.

2 Q. Mr. Stijovic.

3 A. The first important pieces of information about these events

4 started arriving in early June. As of June, we had a constant inflow of

5 information, including the one that persons were killed and thrown, dumped

6 into the Lake Radonjic and the canal next to the lake.

7 We had information from family members - I believe it was the

8 Vlahovic family - to the effect that their parents were still alive a

9 month, a month and a half after their abduction. This was confirmed to

10 them by their friends, Albanians. We checked up on the information and

11 confirmed that it was true.

12 Q. Was anything additional in relation to -- connecting Idriz Balaj,

13 or Toger, with bodies in the canal, apart from that which you've put in

14 paragraph 57 of your statement?

15 A. There was a significant number of documents identifying

16 Idriz Balaj as the most responsible person for the attacks, murders, and

17 other events -- incidents happening in the area. All the most serious

18 criminal activities were carried by Idriz Balaj and his closest

19 associates. The very name of Idriz Balaj instilled fear and was perceived

20 as a threat among the population. I mean the Albanians, of course.

21 Q. Move to paragraph --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness --

23 MR. RE: I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether he came across any of these documents.

25 Because we've seen a lot of reports and statements, et cetera, in which I

Page 9088

1 did not find until, I think, the 1st of September any reference to -- or

2 perhaps I may be mistaken.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I saw a great many

4 documents. And I have to use the opportunity to say that I'm sorry that

5 the documents are not here.

6 When I was invited for the first time in the month of July to

7 appear in The Hague, I found it surprising and even horrifying that the

8 documents relating to Krug were not in the possession of the OTP. I know

9 of many other such documents and pieces of evidence about the activities

10 in that period of time.

11 Since I was immediately involved in the organisation and directing

12 of the collection of evidence of the crimes committed in Kosovo, both

13 against Albanians and Serbs, I was the one in charge of that operation for

14 the entire area of Serbia.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the -- the witness, when he answered your

16 question, referred to the Vlahovic issue, statements that they were still

17 alive.

18 Now, I remember that I came across the Vlahovic issue, I think,

19 once when going through the documents, but unfortunately my memory leaves

20 me there, and I would like to verify what is the date of the document in

21 which the possible -- possibility that the Vlahovics are still alive

22 exactly is, so that I can better understand.

23 If anyone could help me. I know that I came across it. But I

24 haven't learned all the documents by heart yet.

25 No one? Then I'll try to find it.

Page 9089

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. RE: We'll check into that and get back to you.

3 Can I just -- in relation to what Mr. Stijovic just said, alert

4 the Trial Chamber to the fact that the Operation Krug documents which we

5 requested, we have disclosed the entirety of those which we received from

6 the Republic of Serbia. I think it was in July/August, or something like

7 that.

8 Q. Moving to paragraph 58, Mr. Stijovic, and that's where you say:

9 "The DB had a source present during a meeting in Papracane during which

10 Rok Berisha stated that: "The fish in the Radonjic lake are feeding on

11 human flesh." He also said that: "Lake Radonjic would never be a proof

12 of Albanian masculinity but a disgrace for the Albanians."

13 This is one of the portions of your statement the Trial Chamber

14 requires further information about, and in particular where you say you

15 had a source. Now, can you name the source in open session or can you

16 tell us the nature of the source in open session? If necessary, we'll

17 move into private session if you can tell us who the source was.

18 A. This is a live source, a person who took part in the large meeting

19 held in Papracane in the second half of August. The service used this

20 person as an associate. That's why I wouldn't be able to give you his

21 full name. I don't even recall his pseudonym at this time. I do, however,

22 remember this formulation because it's quite characteristic -- or rather,

23 the name of the person uttering these words at the meeting is quite

24 characteristic.

25 I can explain the circumstances in which the meeting was held and

Page 9090

1 what it was all about.

2 Q. We're more interested in --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re -- yes, one of the -- one of the risks here is

4 that the same information from the same source comes through various

5 channels but finally is only one source, and that's, of course -- that

6 would be of some concern to the Chamber. If you would be in a position to

7 seek further clarification on whether that risk exists, yes or no, that

8 would be appreciated.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. Did you only have one source present at the meeting who provided

11 the DB with this information about the fish in Lake Radonjic feeding on

12 human flesh?

13 A. No. This formulation was uttered by that one person.

14 We had several persons present at that meeting on the basis of

15 which we came by the full information on why the meeting was held in the

16 first place and what it was all about.

17 Q. I asked you a moment ago whether -- I think you said you can't

18 remember the name of the person, that -- that particular associate. Can

19 you -- can you remember how many people the -- were at that meeting had

20 provided information to the DB?

21 A. Three to four sources.

22 Q. Were they KLA members?

23 A. One could say that these persons were supporters of the KLA. One

24 or two of the sources were members of the FARK.

25 Q. How did the information each of them was giving compare? Was it

Page 9091

1 inconsistent or consistent or what?

2 A. The information was consistent save for the part where Rok Berisha

3 was mentioned, this formulation. Now, as for the contents of the meeting

4 itself, the information was almost identical.

5 Q. If you could move to paragraph --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there any way seeking confirmation of

7 whether Witness 17 was among the sources? That should be done in -- in

8 private session.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE:

Page 9092

1 Q. In -- the Trial Chamber has also raised some concerns about

2 paragraph 54. Can you just please read that to yourself.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MR. RE: Can that please be displayed in Sanction. And it starts

5 off by saying: "During that time, in June and July 1998,

6 Ramush Haradinaj, as KLA commander in the named zone, sent through

7 orders -- written orders to a large number of KLA members in the village

8 of Lodja to pursue further terrorist activities."

9 I just want to point you to several exhibits on the exhibit list.

10 Can the witness please be shown 65 ter 593. I'm just simply to

11 ask -- asking you to identify whether these are the KLA orders you're

12 referring to which you refer to in that statement.

13 A. No, this isn't that order. This is a list of persons. The image

14 I have in front of me on the screen, a list of 21 persons who received

15 weapons. This was signed by Ramush Haradinaj. And at the end of the

16 list, it says: "Sent to the files, the archives, and the staff in Lodja."

17 So this isn't an order. In the upper right-hand corner, it says

18 that it was sent to the staff in Lodja. But it's not an order.

19 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, it seems I'm -- I'm looking at the clock.

21 MR. RE: All right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: From now, five minutes, and then it's ...

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. The next one I'll show you is P -- 65 ter 583, the 7th of July,

25 1998. Is that one of the orders you were referring to?

Page 9093

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you.

3 MR. RE: Can I please get a number just -- just MFI is fine.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

6 identification as P1011.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

8 MR. RE: The next one is MFI -- sorry, P -- 65 ter 589.

9 Q. Same question: Is that one of the orders you refer to?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. RE: All right. May that also receive a number.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

14 identification as P1012.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown also MFI -- sorry, 65 ter

17 2078 and 2079 but not displayed publicly. These are witness statements

18 and subject of the amended -- the application in respect of the witness

19 tomorrow.

20 Q. These two documents are expressed to be statements of two

21 particular people. I just want you to look at those two documents and

22 tell me if they are statements given to the MUP. And if so, I can get

23 them marked for identification.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The next one is coming now.

Page 9094

1 Likewise, is that second document also a statement given to the

2 MUP, 29th of October, 1998?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. RE: May those two --

5 JUDGE ORIE: It says "SUP." I do not mind --

6 MR. RE: SUP is the MUP.

7 JUDGE ORIE: SUP is the MUP. Okay.

8 MR. RE: It's one part of the MUP. It's the public sector for

9 security.

10 May those two please be marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

12 MR. RE: With consecutive numbers, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 02078 will be marked

14 for identification as P1013 and 65 ter number 02079 will be marked for

15 identification as P1014.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The decision on whether they can be added to

17 the exhibit list is still pending.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. The final question I want to ask you is in relation to your

20 statement about the Serbian people who -- at paragraph 59, where you

21 said: "By May 1998 no Serbs or Montenegrins remains in Dasinovac, Ratis,

22 Ljumbarda, Papracane," et cetera, et cetera.

23 Can 59 please be displayed in Sanction. And yesterday you said

24 there were 800 families -- Serbs living in the area before 1998.

25 What was the source of your information about the number of Serbs

Page 9095

1 living there before and the number of Serbs living there by May 1998?

2 A. The source of our information was the statistics kept for each

3 municipality. And these were not 800 families but 800 persons, including

4 elderly and children. These were persons living in the centre of Decani

5 and in the surrounding villages.

6 By the month of May, all the rural parts inhabited by Serbs and

7 Montenegrins were left without any Serbs or Montenegrins. The people were

8 either driven away, abducted, or in any way compelled to leave the area.

9 There was no room for them there simply because they were Serbs or

10 Montenegrins.

11 Later on, as the KLA grew stronger, the same fate befell the

12 villages around Klina. In the month of June, the same happened to the

13 villages gravitating towards the municipality of Pec. They were also free

14 of any Serbs, Montenegrins who were driven away, forced away. And

15 wherever there was the presence of the KLA, there were no Serbs or

16 Montenegrins.

17 This was true not only for the area under the control of

18 Ramush Haradinaj but this was true of all the area -- areas under the

19 control of the Liberation Army of Kosovo at the time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Re.

21 Before I invite Mr. Emmerson to start cross-examination, Mr. Re,

22 we earlier this morning had a brief exchange of views on amendment of the

23 exhibit list. May I bring to your attention the decision the Chamber

24 issued on the 25th of May of this year. It was a decision on amending the

25 65 ter exhibit list.

Page 9096

1 And specifically, paragraph 6, which reads as follows: "In

2 relation to the documents concerned by the motion, such as pseudonym

3 sheets or maps, the Chamber agrees that the flexible approach to introduce

4 such documents described by the Prosecution is suited to trials of this

5 kind and does not compromise the rights of the accused. However, as

6 conceded by the Prosecution response, paragraph 6, if any new documents

7 are of substance nature, a formal motion for amendment of the Rule 65 ter

8 exhibit list will be in order. The Chamber will then decide whether any

9 such document could be presented and tendered before it on the basis of

10 the parties' submissions and the law."

11 That means that the criterium is not who selected the documents

12 but whether documents of a substantive nature could be added to the list.

13 This is just to remind you.

14 Mr. Emmerson, may I invite you to cross-examine the witness.

15 Mr. Stijovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who's

16 counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

18 Q. Mr. Stijovic, I want to start, if I may, by asking you some

19 general questions about the organisational structures of the RDB and of

20 which the RDB was a part.

21 Now, I've understood your -- your position correctly, I think,

22 that you remained in Kosovo until the 12th of June, 1999. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes, 1999. That's correct.

25 Q. So you are in a position to help us with these questions about

Page 9097

1 institutional relationships throughout 1998 and 1999, I take it.

2 A. I am a member of the State Security Service, and you're asking me

3 about matters for politicians, and I'm not sure that I'll be able to give

4 you clear and precise answers to that. I will do my best.

5 Q. Well, let's see how we get on.

6 The overall head of the RDB, the State Security Service, from 1991

7 until October 1998 was Jovinka [phoen] Stanisic; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And from October of 1998, was that post then taken over by

10 Radomir Markovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Markovic had been a senior official within the RDB for a

13 number of years before he took that post as head of the RDB, had he not?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can you -- can you help us, please, as to what his post was during

16 the period that we've been discussing up to October 1998.

17 A. He was in the public security sector, and I believe that he was

18 the assistant minister of the interior of the Republic of Serbia. He had

19 never worked in the State Security Service before.

20 Q. Mr. Markovic was for a period of time in prison in Serbia after

21 the conflict; is that correct?

22 A. Mr. Radomir Markovic is still in prison in Serbia.

23 Q. Okay. Can you just tell us, please, why he's in prison in Serbia.

24 A. A number of criminal proceedings are pending against him for abuse

25 of official authorities and other law-sanctioned activities. I can't

Page 9098

1 really specify them.

2 Q. Very well. We'll come back to that, if we may.

3 Now, you told us in your testimony last week that all information

4 within the RDB in Kosovo flowed through the analytical department and

5 therefore across your desk at one time or another. Is that right?

6 A. If we look at the way the flow of information went, then this

7 should be true. I believe that all information reached me, which does not

8 rule out the possibility that there was a parallel illegitimate channel of

9 information. Therefore almost all the information.

10 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that there was a parallel

11 illegitimate structure for the supplying of information within the RDB?

12 A. Within the RDB -- I don't think so. When I said "a channel," I

13 primarily meant that a telephone line may be used. That's to say, senior

14 officials of the RDB may cross the security line and pass some information

15 over by phone whilst there's a piece of paper that goes up the hierarchy

16 structure in the organisation. That's what I had in mind.

17 Q. That's what you meant when you referred to a -- the possibility of

18 a parallel illegitimate channel, is it?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Can I ask you about a man called Goran Petrovic. What post did he

21 have within the RDB and when?

22 A. In 2001 in the month of January, Goran Petrovic was appointed

23 chief of the State Security sector of the Republic of Serbia; that's to

24 say, of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia, after

25 Radomir Markovic was removed.

Page 9099

1 Q. Thank you. And again, prior to his appointment, had he been

2 within the RDB or in some other part of the apparatus?

3 A. In the course of 2000, he was thrown out of the State Security

4 Service. This was either in 1999 or 2000. Therefore, he hadn't been part

5 of the State Security Service for one or two years. And earlier on, in

6 1998 and in early 1999, he was a member of the State Security Service at

7 the post of the head of an operative group in the department of the State

8 Security Centre in Belgrade.

9 Q. In a sentence, if you will, please, do you know why he was thrown

10 out?

11 A. As far as I'm aware, he was accused of misconduct at work and

12 revealing official secrets. Apparently, there was an intercepted phone

13 call that he sent to the media. I don't know if that was the actual

14 reason, though.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the other microphone for the witness

16 please be switched on.


18 Q. Can we then just understand the institutional relationships very

19 briefly. The RDB was a part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, or MUP;

20 is that correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And during 1998 and 1999, the Minister for Internal Affairs in

23 overall charge of the MUP was Vlajko Stojiljkovic; is that correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And, again, help me if I understand this correctly. The ministry

Page 9100

1 consisted or two divisions: The public security division, or the RJB, and

2 the state security division, or the RDB; is that right?

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. And the public security division during the period we're concerned

5 with was headed by General Colonel Vlastimir Djordjevic; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you've already told us that Mr. Jovinka Stanisic and then

8 Mr. Radomir Markovic headed the State Security division.

9 And very broadly speaking, the RDB's responsibility was

10 counterintelligence and counter-subversion; is that right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very well.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Could you again, please, in one sentence summarise what the

15 overall responsibility of the RDB was.

16 A. The RDB was in charge of counterintelligence affairs, intelligence

17 affairs, and internal security, the three spheres of work.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, again, some questions for asked earlier on about

19 SUPs and MUPs. Can we just clarify that briefly.

20 In Kosovo - and I'm focusing now on Kosovo, rather than Serbia -

21 in Kosovo, individual police stations were referred to as "OUPs"; is that

22 correct?

23 A. No, that's not correct. Kosovo and Metohija are part of Serbia

24 and part of the single system of the Ministry of the Interior, both when

25 it comes to public security and state security services during that period

Page 9101

1 of time.

2 Q. Can I be clear. Individual police stations would be organised

3 around regional centres known as SUPs; is that right?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. And SUPs were responsible for coordinating all ministry activity,

6 that is, MUP activity, within their area of responsibility; is that right?

7 A. No. If you wish me to explain, I can explain, but the answer is

8 "no."

9 Q. Very well. Can I ask you a specific question first: Were the

10 SUPs responsible for liaison and support for units of the RDB within their

11 area of responsibility?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yes. And hence, for example, we see at Djakova police station RDB

14 officials working side by side on the same investigation, sometimes

15 interviewing the same suspects as their colleagues from the public

16 security division; is that right?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, the SUPs until June of 1998 reported to a body

19 known as the MUP Staff for Kosovo; is that correct?

20 A. I think that that's correct, but you're speaking of the public

21 security service; thus, I'm hesitant. I think it's correct. There was a

22 staff in Pristina headed, I think, by General Lukic, to which secretariats

23 of the interior were subordinated, but I'm not fully certain that that's

24 how it was in the formal legal sense, that that's how it was organised

25 within the MUP.

Page 9102

1 Q. And did the RDB have an involvement in that structure?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did the RDB come to have an involvement in that structure later in

4 1998?

5 A. Could you please clarify that question. What do you mean

6 "involvement"?

7 Q. Well, were there RDB officials within a joint structure for the

8 MUP Staff in Kosovo under the command of Sreten Lukic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Can you just help us, please. I'd like you to be handed a -- a

11 black file of documents which I'm going to use with you in

12 cross-examination. And can I indicate that for the time being,

13 Mr. Stijovic, you can put the black file you've been using to one side.

14 We'll come back to some of the documents in that a little later on. But

15 for the time being, I'm going to ask you some questions about documents in

16 the file that's about to be handed to you.

17 Could you turn in that black file, please, to tab 19, which is

18 Defence document identification 1D620139 and is not yet marked for

19 identification.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

22 identification as D167.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


25 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 16th of June signed by the

Page 9103

1 minister, Mr. Stojiljkovic, establishing a ministerial staff for the

2 suppression of terrorism in the area of Kosovo and Metohija; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if we just look down the list of staff, it is headed by

6 Major General Sreten Lukic; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, 16th of June, 1998.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Did I say 1999? I'm so sorry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, you did --

11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, 1998. I apologise.

12 Q. And the immediate deputy on this joint body to Mr. Lukic is

13 David Gajic, somebody you told us was your superior and the chief of the

14 RDB in Kosovo; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. A few moments ago I asked you whether the RDB came to have

17 involvement in the joint structure under the MUP, and you told us that

18 they did not. Can you just help us. Did you not know about the existence

19 of this organisation or -- or -- or what was the basis for the answer you

20 gave us on page 59 between lines 12 and line 20?

21 A. You asked me -- I agree. Perhaps I didn't pay attention fully to

22 your question.

23 In June, a staff was established for suppression of terrorist

24 activities in the area of Kosovo and Metohija. This is the first time

25 that I see this decision on establishing this staff. This is the first

Page 9104

1 time I see this document. And it was then that a joint operation started

2 to suppress terrorism in the territory of Kosovo and Metohija.

3 If we keep looking -- if we continue analysing this decision, you

4 can see that after David Gajic the people listed on this page and on the

5 other page are all from public security, except for Milorad Lukovic, who

6 was assistant chief of staff for special operations.

7 And in the last sentence of paragraph 1, on the following page it

8 says that in the -- "The expanded staff shall also exclude [as

9 interpreted] chiefs of the secretariats for internal affairs, centres and

10 branches of the RDB." And this pertained to the period of time from June

11 to end of August.

12 This is the first time I see this document; however, I agree with

13 what is stated here, especially in this paragraph.

14 Q. Just help me. At page 59, at line 11 and following I asked you

15 whether there was RDB involvement subordinate to General Lukic in the

16 joint structure, and you said no. And then I said: "Did the RDB come to

17 have an involvement in that structure later in 1998?" And you asked me

18 for clarification. And I said: "Were there RDB officials within a joint

19 structure for the MUP staff in Kosovo under the command of Sreten Lukic?"

20 And you said no.

21 Now, just -- just so that we understand the position, when you

22 gave that answer, did you in fact know that there was such a joint staff

23 or -- or not?

24 A. I knew that there was a staff, but I, as chief of analysis

25 department, wasn't interested in that staff and its composition. My duty

Page 9105

1 was to gather information from the field and to inform David Gajic about

2 that. That's why I told you that this is the first time I see this

3 document.

4 I know for a fact that from late June until late August there was

5 a staff for suppression of terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija, because there

6 is an official report submitted by that staff about its activities.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned Milorad Lukovic as being the

8 Assistant Chief of Staff for special operations. Milorad Lukovic is also,

9 I think, known by the name of Milorad Ulemek and by the nickname of

10 Legija; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. By your leave, however, Your Honours. May I?

14 I didn't know that he was assistant head of staff for special

15 operations. He worked for the public security service, and this is the

16 first time that I see that he also had this title within this staff, that

17 he was assistant head for special operations within that staff.

18 When I mentioned the names, I mentioned David Gajic as head of the

19 service, and I said Milorad Lukovic. All other people belonged to the

20 public security. He at that time was commander of the unit for special

21 operations, and he was a State Security member, and I knew him as such.

22 This is the first time I hear that he was assistant head for special

23 operations in that staff.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you -- you mention him as a commander of a unit

25 for special operations as part of the public security division. I just

Page 9106

1 want to be clear. If we can --

2 A. No.

3 Q. I see. Sorry. Then I've misunderstood you. Was he within the

4 State Security sector, the RDB, or within the public security sector, the

5 RJB?

6 A. JSR, units for special operations existed within the State

7 Security, the RDB.

8 Q. Yes. That's what I wanted to clarify. We'll come back to that in

9 a moment or two. Let's just get the picture absolutely clear.

10 The public security division, that is, the RJB, had two special

11 units officially, known as the SAJ and the PJP; is that correct?

12 A. No, that's not correct.

13 Q. Could you -- could you please explain to us, first of all, whether

14 the SAJ and -- and the PJP respectively belonged to the public security

15 division or to the State Security division.

16 A. SAJ and PJP belonged to the public security service, the RJB.

17 Q. Yes. That's exactly the question I asked you.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Well, I think we've got the answer clear now.

20 The JSO belonged to the RDB, your sector, did they not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And they're sometimes referred to at the time as the Red Berets;

23 is that right?

24 A. In the public, yes, that's how they were known, under that name.

25 Q. Now, we've heard evidence that by April of 1998 they had a base

Page 9107

1 near Deqani monastery 2 kilometres east of Istok, can you confirm that for

2 us, please.

3 A. I'm not certain that it was by April. I think that it was until

4 October. After the Holbrooke-Milosevic agreement was signed, the unit was

5 pulled out of that area and it was located in a facility or in several

6 facilities across from the Deqani monastery, some 2 kilometres from

7 Deqani.

8 Q. Yes. And that organisation was under the overall command of a man

9 called Frenki Simatovic; is that right?

10 A. I think that that's correct, yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, when the witness says he doesn't know

12 whether it was by April --


14 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you please further explore whether it could

15 have been earlier or later.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm -- I'm going to do that in just a moment,

17 if I may.

18 Q. Could you look behind tab 2 in the black file, where you will find

19 a combat report signed by Colonel Dragan Zivanovic as chief of staff of

20 the VJ 125th command in Pec.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, already in evidence or needs a number?

22 MR. EMMERSON: It is not yet, I think, in evidence.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

24 MR. EMMERSON: It's 65 ter number 1931.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

Page 9108

1 identification as D168.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 Please proceed.


5 Q. If you could just look, please, at item number 5 in that report.

6 Colonel Zivanovic records - and this is 27th of April, to remind you -

7 "During the day, a sabotage and terrorist detachment of the MUP of the

8 Republic of Serbia, including all their equipment and two MI-24

9 helicopters, the so-called Frenkijevci arrived to the area of Deqani and

10 Istok. We have personally got in touch with Simatovic, Frenki. Do you see

11 that?

12 A. Yes, I can see that.

13 Q. That word "Frenkijevci" or Frenki -- I don't know whether I'm

14 pronouncing it correctly. Frenkijevci, does that mean "Frenki's Boys"?

15 A. I don't know if that's what it means, but this term was used in

16 this report, and, yes, in -- publicly that's the term that was used.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Your Honours, by your leave, may I address you? I don't want

19 anyone to misunderstand me. The gentleman asked me whether they were

20 there until April of 1998. At least, that's what I heard, whether the

21 unit was there.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, then there must be a translation error or

23 some other kind of misunderstanding. What Mr. -- Mr. Emmerson asked you

24 is whether they were there by April. Then I now better understand your

25 answer, that you said they were there until October.

Page 9109

1 You may have misunderstood the question or it may be

2 misinterpreted. Could you tell us on from when. Was it from April or any

3 earlier or any later?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came to the Deqani area in

5 April of 1998 and they withdrew in October.


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I told you where they were

8 located, headquartered.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

10 Q. The Brazil Group of the JSO, can you help us please -- you won't

11 find it in the document at the moment, not in that document, but have you

12 heard of the Brazil Group of the JSO?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And finally for the moment on -- on this topic, Milorad Lukovic,

15 what was his command position in relation to the JSO in Deqani?

16 A. Milorad Lukovic was superior to a part of the unit located in

17 Deqani. And that part of the unit was headed by Colonel Radojica Bozovic,

18 a member of the JSO.

19 Q. Now, so that we're clear about this, you, no doubt, are aware that

20 the overall commander of the JSO, Frenki Simatovic, and the overall

21 commander of your organisation, the RDB, in 1998 are jointly indicted by

22 this Tribunal for war crimes committed in Croatia and Bosnia. That's

23 something presumably you are aware of.

24 A. As far as I know, there is a proceeding before this Tribunal in

25 which Frenki Simatovic is mentioned. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Page 9110

1 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you what you knew about the details of what

2 the allegations involve in just a moment, in terms of the structure of

3 your organisation, but the indictment is IT-03-69, and the joint accused

4 are Jovinka Stanisic, the head of your organisation at the time we are

5 concerned with, and Franko Simatovic, the head of the special forces of

6 your organisation at the time we are concerned with.

7 And I'm just going to read to you a very short extract and ask you

8 what you know about this aspect of your organisation's functioning, if

9 anything.

10 MR. RE: I object to this. The -- the indictment against

11 Mr. Simatovic and Stanisic is, from memory, from the end of 1991 until the

12 middle of 1995.


14 MR. RE: They're not indicted for anything that happened in Kosovo

15 from 1998.

16 MR. EMMERSON: That's correct.

17 MR. RE: I fail to see the relevance.

18 MR. EMMERSON: I'll explain the relevance.


20 MR. EMMERSON: They're indicted for establishing a series of

21 irregular paramilitary groupings which were brought within the overall

22 control of the RDB and committed unregulated crimes on the ground, some of

23 which subsequently, we submit, and we'll show, found their way into

24 Kosovo.

25 And what I'm asking about is the integrity of the RDB's

Page 9111

1 organisation and those who were at the head of it in using criminal

2 paramilitaries as operatives on the ground.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Objection denied. Please proceed.


5 Q. The relevant passage in the indictment, Mr. Stijovic, reads as

6 follows: "From no later than May 1991, secret units which were not

7 legally authorised were established by or with the assistance of the

8 Serbian DB for the purpose of undertaking special military actions in the

9 Republic of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina."

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you're quoting from what?

11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Paragraph 3 of the indictment.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Leaving out parentheses.

14 Q. "These units included but were not limited to groups known by the

15 following names: Red Berets, Skorpions, Arkan's Tigers, also known as

16 Arkan's Men or Arkanovci, Martic's Police, the Militia of the so-called

17 Serbian Autonomous District of Srpska -- Baranja -- I'm sorry, of

18 Slavonija, Baranja, and Western Sujen [phoen]. The JSO, the Jedinica

19 Specijalne Operacija, and the JATD."

20 Paragraph 5 alleges that Mr. Simatovic had responsibility for

21 these special units of the RDB and directed their involvement in

22 operations in Croatia and Bosnia.

23 And my question for you, Mr. Stijovic, is: What do you know about

24 with your own service establishing illegal paramilitary formations under

25 the authority of the head of the service and Mr. Simatovic prior to 1998,

Page 9112

1 first of all?

2 A. I don't know anything about that. I know that the JSO was within

3 the RDB starting from 1997 or 1998. Formally legally speaking, the JSO

4 has been part of the state security from that time.

5 Q. Would 1996 in fact be the correct date, Mr. Stijovic? For the

6 creation of the JSO as part of the RDB?

7 A. I don't think it's difficult to verify that in the archives of the

8 RDB within the MUP. I don't know the exact date. But if you say that it

9 was in 1996, I can accept that. You probably have documents confirming

10 that.

11 Q. And you knew nothing, despite the seniority of your role and your

12 security clearance that you gave evidence about, you knew nothing about

13 the creation of the JSO out of paramilitary groups that had been operating

14 in Croatia and Bosnia? Is that right?

15 A. There were no paramilitary groups active in Kosovo and Metohija,

16 and I was so busy with the activities of Albanian extremists and

17 terrorists in Kosovo and Metohija that I had absolutely no time to look

18 into the events in the former Republics of the SFRY. That was not within

19 my scope of work, nor was it within the scope of work of the part of the

20 RDB to which I belonged.

21 Q. I understand that. But you were in a very senior position within

22 this organisation, you tell us, Mr. Stijovic. What I'm asking you is:

23 Is it really the position that you knew nothing about the relationship

24 between your own organisation and the paramilitary formations that had

25 operated in those two republics?

Page 9113

1 A. Thank you for attributing such importance to my position, but I

2 think I'm in a better position to judge my own importance. I was head of

3 analysis department in Kosovo-Metohija and I was dealing with that. As to

4 the events in 1991 through 1995 I was an operative. And then from 1996, I

5 became head of the analysis department. And then I dealt with the events

6 in Kosovo and Metohija from 1996 through 1999.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, if Mr. Emmerson asks you whether you

8 knew something or not, just tell him whether you knew or not. You don't

9 have to explain why you knew or why you didn't know unless Mr. Emmerson

10 has a specific interest, and then he'll ask further questions on the

11 matter.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


14 Q. Mr. Stijovic, at page 70, line 7 your answer is recorded as

15 follows: "There were no paramilitary groups active in Kosovo and

16 Metohija."

17 Now, do I understand your evidence to be this, that during 1988 --

18 I'm sorry, during 1998 and 1999 there were no Serbian paramilitary groups,

19 that is, irregular illegal paramilitary groups operating on the territory

20 of Kosovo and Metohija?

21 A. Yes, that's how you can understand it.

22 Q. Well, we'll turn to that in a moment or two, please.

23 Could you look, please, behind tab 4 in this bundle. I want to

24 ask you to comment on certain aspects of a report that concerns the

25 disbanding of the JSO.

Page 9114

1 Milorad Lukovic, also known as Milorad Ulemek, also known as

2 Legija, was arrested in Serbia in 2003 for the murder of Prime Minister

3 Zoran Djindjic, was he not?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And having been convicted of the murder of a number of members of

6 the Serbian Renewal Movement, he's currently serving a 40-year prison

7 sentence in Serbia; is that right?

8 A. The interpretation wasn't good. Can you please repeat the

9 question or your comment.

10 Q. Is it correct that he is currently serving a 40-year prison

11 sentence for the murder of politicians in the Serbian Renewal Movement or

12 officials from the Serbian Renewal Movement?

13 A. Yes. A sentence was -- or a judgement was rendered in that

14 particular case.

15 Q. And immediately after he was arrested, is it right that the JSO

16 was disbanded?

17 A. I don't think that's correct.

18 Q. Well --

19 A. That's not correct.

20 Q. I want to just do a fact check with you, please, on some of the

21 material in the report that you find behind tab 4. And I'll just read

22 short passages to you and ask you to help us with your knowledge, either

23 to confirm or contradict what is there recorded.

24 First of all, "the Serbian government has announced that it is

25 disbanding the elite police force, the special operations unit JSO with

Page 9115

1 immediate effect. The decision followed the arrest on Monday of an

2 assistant commander on the unit -- of the unit on suspicion of having

3 taken part in the assassination of Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic two weeks

4 ago."

5 This report, as you see, is dated 26th of March, 2003.

6 Does that refresh your memory as to whether the JSO were disbanded

7 following the arrest of Mr. Lukovic?

8 A. Perhaps the term itself was something I found controversial. The

9 government of Serbia did pass down a decision to disband the JSO; however,

10 after detailed vetting, a good many members of the JSO became part of the

11 gendarmerie of the MUP of Serbia. Therefore, all those who had not been

12 involved in criminal activities did not take part in all of that that was

13 of interest to a court of law became members of the gendarmerie, because

14 among them there were many honourable persons, honourable fighters.

15 When you said "disbanded," I understood that to mean fully

16 disbanded, where people were sent home. Just to make myself quite clear.

17 Q. Your organisation's existence was terminated and some of its

18 personnel transferred to other posts. That's the position, is it not?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Yes. You said among them, there were honourable people, as

21 distinct from those involved in criminal activities; is that right?

22 A. Most of them were honourable and honest people.

23 Q. Well, can I ask you then to just help us with the next section in

24 this report. And for the -- for the record, this is Defence document

25 1D62-0006. And may that be marked for identification.

Page 9116

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that, will be marked for

3 identification as D169.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


6 Q. The JSO -- I'm quoting to you the passage now: "The JSO was

7 formed in 1996 out of a group known as the Red Berets which was set up by

8 Serbia's security service in 1991, shortly before Croatia's declaration of

9 independence. The purpose of the Red Berets was to fight alongside, as

10 well as to arm, train, and coordinate the activities of various Serbian

11 paramilitary formations in Croatia and later in Bosnia-Herzegovina."

12 Pausing there. Were you aware when the JSO was set up that it had

13 been effectively formed from the organisation which was previously known

14 as the Red Berets?

15 A. No. That was not my part of the job, the personnel structure

16 within the RDB. No.

17 Q. I'm not asking you about your job, Mr. Stijovic, specifically or

18 your area of responsibility. I'm simply asking you whether as an

19 official -- and it was Mr. Re's examination of you which established your

20 importance in the hierarchy -- whether an official at level 3 or 4 or 5,

21 as you told us, in the RDB, whether you really were in ignorance of this

22 information.

23 MR. RE: It was the hierarchy in Kosovo, not the hierarchy in

24 Belgrade. That should be made quite clear.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- yes. I think there could hardly be any

Page 9117

1 confusion.

2 Did you know? Did you not know? Mr. Stijovic, that's the

3 question.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


7 Q. And continuing: "Many of these paramilitaries were run by

8 gangland bosses. The best known among them, the late Zeljko Raznjatovic,

9 or Arkan. In the process of establishing and maintaining the Red Berets,

10 the long-serving head of the State Security Service during the Milosevic

11 era, Jovica Stanisic, managed to establish a degree of control over

12 Serbia's expanding criminal underworld. But with the Red Berets

13 recruiting many hardened criminals, the symbiotic relationship between

14 Serbia's secret police and Mafia bosses increasingly turned into an

15 uncontrollable and unreliable force."

16 Now, again, can I ask you, please: When these men under the

17 heading or title of the JSO and the command of Mr. Simatovic and

18 Mr. Lukovic were deployed in April 1998 in Kosovo, were you aware that

19 they had connections to criminal gangs?

20 A. Your Honours, by your leave, I don't know what the gentleman is

21 quoting, where he's quoting this text from, the text which suggests what

22 their actions were. And then the questioner follows: Did you know about

23 this? As if what the gentleman quoted was indeed the truth.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Well, let me put --

Page 9118

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, first of all, I'll -- what Mr. Emmerson is

2 doing is he's quoting from a report which appears under the heading "BBC

3 News," that's so that -- what was published at the time.

4 I agree with you, Mr. Stijovic, that Mr. Emmerson, asking about

5 awareness of a certain fact, better could ask you whether you heard or

6 learned about such things, which leaves open whether this reflects

7 reality, yes or no.

8 If he would like to know whether you know anything about whether

9 these things really happened, then I think Mr. Emmerson will specify that

10 question and then will also thoroughly explore your source's knowledge,

11 because that was an issue in your testimony on from the beginning.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. EMMERSON: And I accept the correction.

14 Q. Mr. Stijovic, were you aware in 1998 of allegations that the

15 special forces of your own organisation were peopled by criminal elements?

16 A. No.

17 Q. That's something that had never been brought to your attention at

18 the time.

19 A. You have to tell me specifically what you're referring to. I

20 didn't know.

21 Q. Well, can I ask you, please: Do you know what the expression

22 "deep wedging and burning" means?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You have to -- Mr. Stijovic, now your answer is:

Page 9119

1 "You have to tell me specifically what you're referring to. I didn't

2 know."

3 Now, knowing something has different levels. Mr. Emmerson asked

4 you whether allegations ever came to you. So that is to say, whether

5 anyone ever said it's a bunch of criminals or whether anyone ever said

6 it's just Arkan's men or ...

7 Mr. Emmerson is now asking not about knowledge of the reality but,

8 first of all, he asks you whether it was ever brought to your attention

9 that such allegations - whether true or not - were there.

10 And by answering saying "I do not know," the answer should be: I

11 never heard about it or I never learned anything about it or, of course,

12 that you did hear or did learn about it.

13 Let's try to keep matters entirely clear in this respect. Did you

14 ever hear about such allegations? First, in general terms.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.


18 Q. When did you hear about them?

19 A. If you'll allow me, Your Honours. There is quite a difference

20 between the questions put by the gentleman and the question put by you,

21 because he is making a connection between the burning and torching and my

22 organisation.

23 You asked me whether I had heard of criminal activities, such as

24 torching, in general and that's why I answered "yes."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now the last question, Mr. Stijovic, could not raise

Page 9120

1 any such confusion because the only thing Mr. Emmerson now asked is: When

2 did you hear about them?

3 Could you tell us when?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Albanian mass media portrayed

5 all the activities conducted by the police as terror and excessive use of

6 force. In this regard, the Albanian mass media reported in detail on

7 all -- on the police activities. They referred to them as "criminal

8 police activities," which involved torching, murder, plunder, and

9 such-like activities.

10 There were such incidents -- incidences, and we received reports

11 of individual isolated incidents of the sort on the ground, such as theft,

12 stealing money from civilians, but these cases were processed through a

13 justice administration. Cases were instigated for that.


15 Q. I see. Could we just look behind tab 5 for a moment, please. And

16 this is D165. This is a report again by Colonel Zivanovic of a series of

17 operations up to the 8th of August, 1998.

18 If you look at the very last paragraph in the report, on the

19 second page, he refers to some of the units involved and he refers to the

20 JSO and a unit of the JSO known as the Brazil Group. I'll read the words

21 specifically: "JSO, particularly the Brazil Group, are very well

22 trained."

23 If you could just now, please, turn to the first page of the

24 document. And in the Serbian, it is about six lines up from the bottom.

25 It is the last bullet point under paragraph 1.2.

Page 9121

1 The report records that: "The Brazil group carrying out deep

2 wedging and burning operations."

3 And I wondered if you could help us as to what in RDB terminology

4 would be referred to as a burning operation on the part of the JSO.

5 A. As much as I should like to help you, I can't.

6 First of all, this is the first time I see this report. This is a

7 report from the army.

8 As for Brazil title, I don't know whether it existed. I don't

9 know what the structure of the JSO was and how these teams were -- were

10 organised.

11 Now, as for these words, well, it always depends on the person

12 using these words. These are the ones you should discuss these matters

13 with.

14 Now, as for the terms "deep wedging," "burning" one's way through,

15 I see that as going deep into a certain area, but I'm not sure.

16 Q. I'm -- I want to return, if I may, to an answer you gave a little

17 while ago in answer to questions from me where you said that there were no

18 Serbian paramilitary groups active on the territory -- territory of Kosovo

19 and Metohija.

20 Let me lay the foundation for the next series of questions with

21 you, first of all. I want to ask you about a man called Major General

22 formerly Colonel Branko Gajic, who was assistant chief of the security

23 administration for the VJ. Can I ask you: Did you know of Colonel Gajic,

24 Colonel Branko Gajic, or did you know him whilst you were in Kosovo?

25 A. I didn't know him, but I know that he was a very skilful operative

Page 9122

1 of the military security service, highly positioned at the time. I

2 believe that he's retired now.

3 Q. Yes. And was your organisation exchanging information with his?

4 A. The organisation at his level exchanged information in the context

5 of Radomir Markovic. He -- because Gajic was chief -- was deputy chief of

6 military security service, so he was at the level of the deputy chief of

7 State Security Service. Compared to them, I am at an inferior level in

8 terms of the exchange of information.

9 Q. So the answer is, yes, there were exchanges of information but

10 they were at the level between Mr. Markovic and Colonel Gajic; is that

11 right?

12 A. It is customary for intelligence and security information to be

13 exchanged, and I do believe that's correct, what you're saying is correct,

14 yes.

15 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions now about some testimony

16 that Colonel Gajic gave in the Milutinovic trial which is taking place in

17 this building and to see whether you can help us about this, because the

18 information that he gives concerns information supplied by your service.

19 Colonel Gajic testified that he was tasked on behalf of the VJ to

20 investigate the presence of irregular paramilitary groups in Kosovo. Now,

21 he testified that there were such groups, that they were made up of

22 criminals whose aim was violence and looting, and that VJ intelligence

23 discovered a number of paramilitary groups directly linked to the MUP in

24 general, to your service, the RJB, and to the RDB in particular. And he

25 testified that once in Kosovo, these groups would be issued with uniforms

Page 9123

1 of the SAJ so that they were indistinguishable from MUP special forces.

2 MR. RE: Can we have the time frame for the testimony --

3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, absolutely.

4 MR. RE: -- of Mr. Gajic.

5 MR. EMMERSON: And I'm going to relate it back to an earlier stage

6 as well. The time frame for the testimony is 1999, but the answers the

7 witness has given cover the entirety of the conflict; that is to say, the

8 answers that this witness has given. The relevant abstract for this first

9 series of questions is behind tab 6, and it's pages 15273 through to 15276

10 in the Milutinovic transcript.

11 Q. Now, I want to ask you, please, what your service knew about two

12 of these groups in particular.

13 Mr. Gajic testified -- and I'm tab 7 at this point, so pages 15351

14 onwards. Mr. Gajic testified that he attended a meeting on the 17th of

15 May, 1999 with President Milosevic and with your boss, Radomir Markovic.

16 And he testified that during the meeting Mr. Markovic provided information

17 about a group called the Skorpions, who were under the control of a man

18 called Slobodan Medic, or Boca. He said that this group had been brought

19 into Kosovo by General Colonel Vlastimir Djordjevic in March 1999 and that

20 members of the group had committed a massacre at a place called Podujevo

21 on the 31st of March, 1999, in which they killed ten children and two

22 adults. He testified that they had then been removed back to Serbia under

23 an agreement between the VJ and the MUP and that your boss, Mr. Markovic,

24 told the meeting that General Colonel Vlastimir Djordjevic then breached

25 the agreement and brought the group back into Kosovo. This is the

Page 9124

1 extracts behind tab 7, pages 15351 to 2.

2 Were you aware of any of this, Mr. Stijovic, going on in Kosovo in

3 1999?

4 A. No. But Mr. Gajic is a serious person, and I do believe this to

5 be true. The investigation I conducted with Radomir Markovic led me to

6 know that this meeting was held with President Milosevic. I don't know

7 the contents of the meeting, though.

8 Q. I'm going to come back to the investigation you conducted into

9 Mr. Markovic later on in my cross-examination. But so far as the

10 operation of the Skorpions is concerned and the fact that Mr. Djordjevic

11 brought them back to Kosovo after they had -- were known to have committed

12 a crime involving the killing of civilians, that's not something that

13 Mr. Markovic, your boss, obtained from you or that you were aware of.

14 A. Absolutely not. You can see that this is at the level of the

15 chief of public security and the Chief of State Security.

16 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you then about a group that you certainly

17 do know about, because you've told us about --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, are we moving to a new group. Then --

19 MR. EMMERSON: We are moving to a new group, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps it's better to have the break now.

21 We'll have the break --

22 Yes Mr. Harvey.

23 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, just one small correction that might be

24 important at a later stage. Page 61, line 19, the testimony as recorded

25 in the text and -- and as I heard it over the English translation - and

Page 9125

1 we're referring here to Exhibit -- or to the tab 19 - the witness read:

2 "The expanded staff shall also exclude chiefs of the secretariat," which

3 didn't seem to make sense. And looking at the original English

4 translation, it says: "The expanded staff shall also include chiefs of

5 the secretariats".

6 As I say, it may become important at a later stage, and I thought

7 we should just clarify that at this point.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember that you read that portion of

9 tab 19? I'll go back with you to that.

10 MR. HARVEY: It's on the second page of the --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just see.

12 MR. HARVEY: -- of the Bosnian -- of the Serbian, about halfway

13 down.

14 JUDGE ORIE: 61, line 19. Yes, you said the following: "And in

15 the last sentence of paragraph 1 - that was the document you saw for the

16 first time - on the following page, it says that in the -- the expanded

17 staff shall also exclude chiefs of the secretariats for internal affairs,

18 centres, and branches." And Mr. Harvey now takes it that you either

19 misspoke or that you misread or that it appears not correctly on the

20 transcript, that you wanted to say and that you were reading that "the

21 expanded staff shall also include."

22 Is that what your recollection is as well from reading at that

23 moment?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes. It is illogical to

25 say that they would be excluded from the expanded staff. It was either a

Page 9126

1 misinterpretation or some other mistake. Such terminology is used always

2 for expanding something and not saying that something will not be

3 expanded.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The matter is then corrected.

5 We'll have a break until 1.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed, but I'd like to inform

9 the parties that there are reasons to try to speed up in such a way that

10 the witness can leave tomorrow after the morning session.


12 JUDGE ORIE: And when we took more time this morning, not in every

13 respect that added to the evidence given in chief. So therefore the

14 Chamber invites you to try to very much focus and see whether we can

15 finish by tomorrow quarter past -- quarter to 2.00.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm certainly aiming to -- to maintain that

17 indication from -- from yesterday. I do, though, if I may, wish to pursue

18 one or two questions and one or two topics concerning broader issues than

19 the material --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it finally up to you.


22 JUDGE ORIE: But --


24 Q. Mr. Stijovic, you spoke earlier on in your evidence in chief by

25 reference to Arkan. Presumably Arkan is somebody who you would accept was

Page 9127

1 a criminal element.

2 A. I mentioned Arkan in response to your question, but I don't

3 remember speaking about him on my own, unless you direct me to that part.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, if you just could answer the question.

5 The question was whether Arkan is somebody you would accept to be a

6 criminal element.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on his conduct and activities,

8 yes.


10 Q. Could you just look behind tab 8, please, in the bundle. And I'm

11 referring again to the testimony of Colonel Gajic in the Milutinovic case.

12 He is asked at line 11 on page 15379: "The Arkan group, on whose

13 authority did they go to Kosovo? Do you know that?" And he replies:

14 "Yes, the State Security Department. "Who in the State Security

15 Department?" "The department chief. Mr. Rade Markovic, the RDB chief."

16 And then he goes on to explain that they were brought in by

17 Mr. Markovic and sent by the RDB not to the army but ultimately to the

18 SAJ.

19 Were you aware that your boss had brought Arkan's paramilitaries

20 into Kosovo?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you maintain the position that you knew nothing of their

23 presence in Kosovo at any point during the conflict?

24 A. I know that a group of persons that belong to Arkan's group -- are

25 you referring to Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan? That's his pseudonym. "Arkan"

Page 9128

1 is his pseudonym.

2 There was a group of 200 persons from Western Serbia who were

3 armed and in vehicles, and they attempted to enter the territory of Kosovo

4 near Ribarici, which is near Kosovska Mitrovica. That was in the first

5 half of 1998. They were stopped both by police and the army and banned

6 from entering Kosovo and Metohija as an organised group. They were told

7 that they could not go in in such a manner and if they wanted to come in

8 as volunteers to Kosovo and Metohija, they could apply to reserve forces

9 and enter as such but that they were not allowed to come in as an

10 organised group. That's all I know. And they were sent back. They --

11 they returned.

12 I know even the name of the person who led them.

13 Q. Well, this -- this is a reference to a group of Arkan's men being

14 brought into Kosovo by Radomir Markovic, and he explains elsewhere in his

15 testimony that they established a reception centre at Kosovo Polje for

16 these men. Is that something that rings a bell with you at all,

17 Mr. Stijovic?

18 A. Absolutely not. And had that been a case, I would have definitely

19 known about this, because the State Security Service dealt with organised

20 activities, extremist activities, both of Albanians and Serbs. Such an

21 activity could not go undetected without us knowing about it, especially

22 not in Kosovo Polje.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- you said -- "he says elsewhere in his testimony

Page 9129

1 that they established a reception centre at Kosovo Polje."


3 JUDGE ORIE: Is that here or somewhere else?

4 MR. EMMERSON: In terms of where -- where it's to be found in his

5 testimony?


7 MR. EMMERSON: If Your Honour could just give me one moment. I

8 think it's -- I think it's in one of the extracts in the bundle.

9 Yes, it's behind tab 6.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'll find it.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Page 15274, question from Judge Bonomy: "What did

12 you establish Arkan's Group did in Kosovo?"

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll find it. Thank you.


15 Q. So when Colonel Gajic testified that it was on the authority of

16 the State Security Department that a contingent of Arkan's men were

17 brought into Kosovo, you say that's not true; is that right? 'Cause you

18 would definitely have known about it.

19 A. I said that Mr. Gajic is somebody whom I hold in great esteem, but

20 I cannot confirm this piece of information or what he said in his

21 statement.

22 Q. We've heard testimony in this courtroom from Colonel

23 John Crosland, the British military attache to Belgrade, about having seen

24 what he described as "imported thugs" in the area of Deqan during 1998 and

25 having followed them to a base in Montenegro, where they corralled with a

Page 9130

1 very large number of other men in plain clothes.

2 And I'll just take you, if I may, to one passage of his testimony

3 behind tab 9. And I'm referring to the transcript in this case at page

4 3051 and 3052.

5 He describes having seen these men in plain clothes and in

6 vehicles which looked well-equipped and on occasions with earpiece

7 communications in the area around Deqan and following them, as I say, to

8 Montenegro.

9 And at 3052, line 6 and following he says that his assessment was

10 that elements of the RDB were involved with that grouping.

11 Now, were there plain-clothes paramilitary groups within the RDB

12 operating in the Deqan area in March of 1998?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know who these men may have been that Colonel Crosland

15 observed with earpieces in plain clothes corralling in Montenegro?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.


20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I asked you for the source of the

21 establishment of a reception centre --


23 JUDGE ORIE: -- in Kosovo Polje.


25 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why I asked that is because what I, at

Page 9131

1 that time, saw under tab 8, page 15380, the answer of the witness is:

2 "Our sources registered their presence in the territory of Kosovo Polje.

3 We did not have anything more specific up until the very eve of the

4 meeting held at Milosevic," et cetera.


6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, that did not convince me that the testimony said

7 that there was a reception centre.


9 JUDGE ORIE: So you referred me to 6. Now, I find in 6, page

10 15274.


12 JUDGE ORIE: That you've drawn my attention to, a question by

13 Judge Bonomy saying: "What did you establish Arkan's Group did in

14 Kosovo?" And the witness then answered: "We established that in the

15 centre in Kosovo Polje there was some sort of reception of these

16 volunteers" --

17 MR. EMMERSON: Some sort of --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- and then, however, somewhere else, on page 15275,

19 the witness says: "My answer to this question is that in the case of

20 these three paramilitary formations" -- and I'm just wondering whether --


22 JUDGE ORIE: -- they are there -- "they did not go through the

23 procedure according to the orders of the -- concerning the reception,

24 processing, and sending."


Page 9132

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's a bit unclear to me that --

2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Can I -- one needs to read the testimony in

3 context. But at paragraph -- in the passage Your Honour has taken --

4 drawn attention to, 15274, line 6.


6 MR. EMMERSON: I think there -- I think there was one word which

7 was omitted on the transcript from when Your Honour read from it. "We

8 established that in the centre of Kosovo Polje there was some sort of

9 centre there for the reception of these volunteers. They committed a

10 crime."

11 Now, the volunteers he's then referring to are Arkan's Group. At

12 page 15275 when he talks about "three paramilitary formations," he is

13 referring to Arkan's Group and to two other groups, the Skorpions, which

14 we've touched upon, under the command of Slobodan Medic, and another

15 group, known as the Wolves of Drina. And in respect of all three, the

16 testimony at 15275 is that they were not officially incorporated as they

17 should have been through a proper processing procedure.

18 Now, that's as I understood the testimony.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just then check again what you put to

20 the witness here.

21 Yes. Perhaps the "they" in line -- in page 86, line 22 -- "that

22 they established a reception centre at Kosovo Polje for these men" -- yes,

23 whether it was for these men or for volunteers and whether this was

24 specifically for, if I could say so, the criminal volunteers that is not

25 apparent. But, of course, I have to very quickly review the sources.

Page 9133


2 JUDGE ORIE: And I might make more -- I might take more time for

3 that. Please proceed.


5 Q. Finally under this rubric, I want to ask you about a grouping

6 called the Pauk Group or the Spider Group controlled by a man called

7 Jugoslav Petrovic, which is alleged by Colonel Gajic to have infiltrated

8 the 125th Brigade of the VJ, which was then under the command of Colonel

9 Dragan Zivanovic. Are you aware of the existence in Kosovo of a group

10 under the control of Jugoslav Petrovic known as the Pauk Group or the

11 Spider Group?

12 A. No. And it doesn't seem logical to me.

13 Q. I see. Let me see if I can prompt your recollection at all. This

14 man Petrovic was investigated by your service and reported to be working

15 for the French security services and to have been sent to Kosovo with a

16 mission to deal with the Albanian factor.

17 Does that ring any bells with you, Mr. Stijovic?

18 A. As for Jugoslav Petrusic -- it's not Petrovic. It's Petrusic.

19 He's a person who was arrested in Belgrade, not in Kosovo and Metohija.

20 Initially, it was the military intelligence who worked with him. They

21 questioned him about certain events. And later on, the RDB in Belgrade

22 worked with him. Since that was outside of my scope of work, I don't know

23 what transpired with that group and what was their role in the area and

24 whether he was in Kosovo at all and whether he was able to work with the

25 army and things like that.

Page 9134

1 Q. Can I ask you more generally: Were you aware of complaints or

2 indeed examples in which forces under the ministry, the MUP, were involved

3 in committing grave crimes against the Albanian civilian population and

4 then attempting falsely to implicate the VJ for those crimes in order to

5 cover up their responsibility?

6 A. I know of one situation that resembles the one that you're asking

7 me about.

8 Q. Please give us a short summary of what you know in relation to it.

9 A. In the territory of Istok municipality -- Istok is a place near

10 Pec. There were some crimes committed against the citizens, against

11 Albanians. There were complaints that there was theft there, robbery,

12 confiscation of money, and then police and the military blamed each other,

13 including local authorities.

14 Following that, a working group was established pursuant to the

15 agreement of everyone involved, comprising RDB, VJ, and RJB, and they were

16 supposed to look into the case and submit a report.

17 That's the only situation that I'm aware of that resembles the one

18 you described.

19 Q. These were property crimes, were they? Theft and so forth?

20 A. I think that's the case. Definitely property crimes.

21 Now, whether there were any other crimes as well, I don't know,

22 but definitely illegal activities and illegal conduct. A report was drawn

23 up about that.

24 And by your leave. It was established that the greatest portion

25 of responsibility for that type of situation and the -- on the ground

Page 9135

1 should be attributed to the local authorities.

2 Q. Can I ask you to look behind tab 12, please, at a report of

3 Colonel General Pavkovic, the 25th of May, 1999. And in particular, can I

4 direct your attention, first of all, to paragraph 4.

5 "It has been established beyond doubt that we have already -- and

6 we have already reported on it in regular combat and other reports that

7 due to the non-compliance with the re-subordination orders, some MUP

8 members, and to a considerable extent, entire smaller units which operate

9 independently on the ground, are committing serious crimes against the

10 Siptar civilian population in settlements or refugee shelters. Murder,

11 rape, plunder, robbery - aggravated robbery, I think that is - theft, and

12 they then purposefully attribute or plan to attribute those crimes to

13 units and individuals in the VJ."

14 Now, that's obviously a assessment of a -- an ongoing practice

15 which is described as something which has been established beyond doubt

16 and is the subject of regular reports. So my question to you is: The MUP

17 forces involved on the ground in Kosovo, were you aware of this broader

18 allegation that murders and rapes were being committed by those forces and

19 then attempts made to fabricate responsibility, to point the finger at the

20 VJ?

21 A. First of all, this is the first time I see this document, and I

22 challenge its authenticity.

23 First of all, because it's quite typical to blame somebody else

24 for what happened in Kosovo and Metohija.

25 In this particular case, in May of 1999, Mr. Pavkovic allegedly

Page 9136

1 issues a document in which he explicitly and clearly states that there was

2 such conduct and that it was solely due to the MUP members. He, as

3 commander of the 3rd Army and the army in general, are, according to him,

4 completely innocent of this.

5 There were criminal activities everywhere, both among the Serbs

6 and the Albanians. As for crimes and activities -- crime -- criminal

7 activities by the Albanians, they were committed by the KLA members and

8 FARK members. As for the Serbs, there were members of the MUP, members of

9 the army, and a lot of civilians who were involved in criminal activities.

10 So I doubt and I claim with full responsibility that this is not

11 correct.

12 Q. Just to be clear, you said you challenge the authenticity of this

13 document. This is a document produced --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, perhaps we'll ask first: Mr. Re, will

15 you join the witness in challenging the authenticity of this document?

16 MR. RE: No, I don't. But perhaps the word "authenticity" could

17 be clarified.


19 MR. RE: And I think Mr. Emmerson is doing that.


21 MR. EMMERSON: I just want to be clear whether the witness is

22 challenging --


24 MR. EMMERSON: -- the veracity of the contents.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that he's talking about logic rather

Page 9137

1 than --


3 JUDGE ORIE: And then, of course, Mr. Re, in the back of your

4 mind, could be that where the witness earlier said that one was blaming

5 the other, that this, of course, was a document that was issued by one of

6 the potential wrongdoers.


8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


10 Q. Just to be clear, Mr. Stijovic, when you said you challenged the

11 authenticity of this document, are you suggesting that the document is a

12 forgery or are you suggesting that its contents are not true?

13 A. It is my position that its content is inaccurate and untrue. I am

14 not able to say anything about the authenticity of the document itself.

15 I'm just referring to the contents, which are not consistent with the

16 situation on the ground, with the facts.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Tab 12, Your Honour, is Defence document 1D62-0135.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, I take it?

20 MR. EMMERSON: It needs a number.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for

23 identification as D170.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Before --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 9138


2 Q. Before we depart this document, I want to turn to paragraph 6,

3 please, which reads as follows: "The cooperation between the organs of

4 the State Security Department in Kosovo and Metohija is not good either,

5 as we have not received yet a single piece of information regarding

6 members of the VJ reserve force. The exchanges of operative and other

7 information are few and far between and the information served to us about

8 Siptar terrorist forces is frequently general and inaccurate, leading to

9 the unnecessary exhausting of unit commands and particularly the security

10 agencies engaging in their verification."

11 Can I ask you: Were you aware that VJ military intelligence

12 regarded the information supplied by the RDB as frequently general and

13 inaccurate?

14 A. They expressed doubts, just as we, as RDB, had certain complaints

15 about what they did in relation to infiltration of weapons from Albania

16 into Kosovo and Metohija; that is to say, we had complaints about how well

17 they controlled the border.

18 This document dates from May 1999.

19 Q. Yes, I can see that.

20 You -- you have told us that when compiling statistics, that apart

21 from the border incidents which were, I think you said, not properly

22 recorded, you were able to make comparisons between information held by

23 the VJ and information held by your service. I'm just trying to

24 understand how the close degree of correlation you told us about last week

25 fits with the assessment that we see in this report.

Page 9139

1 A. There weren't any big differences, especially not as of 1995

2 onwards, as the intensity of terrorist activity grew.

3 Q. I see. I want to turn now to ask you some questions about the

4 testimony that you were called to give in the prosecution of

5 Slobodan Milosevic.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson --

7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, earlier you referred to transcripts

9 both of testimony in this case and other cases. May I take it that by

10 reading the relevant portion and pointing at the relevant pages that

11 there's no need further to tender those --

12 MR. EMMERSON: Well, certainly so far as the testimony in this

13 case is concerned, that is the position.


15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. I want to then turn to ask you some questions about the testimony

25 you were called to give in the Milosevic trial. Now, you were called in

Page 9140

1 that case to testify by the Prosecution about an interview you had

2 conducted with your former boss, Radomir Markovic, on the 26th of June,

3 2001, whilst he was in custody, concerning the finding of a lorry

4 container in the River Danube, which was believed to contain the remains

5 of Kosovo Albanians killed during the conflict. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. For the most part, yes.

7 Q. And I think, in fact, you interviewed him on a number of occasions

8 between April and July 2001 at the request of senior officials in the RDB.

9 Is that right?

10 A. Yes, that was the task I was given.

11 Q. And you questioned him about wide-ranging issues and allegations

12 of impropriety within the RDB during his period of tenure; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So -- so in order to investigate the former head of the RDB's

16 involvement in crime, you -- you, as an RDB official, were assigned that

17 task; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you manage to find out whether he had been involved in crimes

20 orchestrated through the RDB during his period of tenure?

21 A. Through Radomir Markovic we came to learn a great deal of

22 information about unlawful conduct and activities in the earlier period,

23 whilst he was the chief of State Security.

24 Q. Unlawful conduct and activities by the State Security Service or

25 by other branches of the Serbian apparatus?

Page 9141

1 A. Individuals from the State Security Service, individuals from the

2 leadership of public security, Ministry of the Interior, and individuals

3 from political and state leadership.

4 Q. And so far as the officials within the RDB were concerned, were

5 these allegations of involvement in serious crime?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you give us an indication of the sorts of crimes, please, that

8 RDB officials were engaging in, according to your investigation.

9 A. In general, I can tell you what types of crime these were, but

10 because of my duty to keep state secrets, I can't tell you details. These

11 are crimes of misconduct, abuse of position, relations with the criminal

12 underworld, corruption, money laundering and such-like.

13 Q. So, essentially, corruption between senior officials in the RDB

14 and the criminal underworld in Serbia; is that right?

15 A. We're talking about a huge problem involving the authority in

16 Serbia, the internal corruption within the structures of authority of the

17 Republic of Serbia. This included the police, security officials,

18 statesmen, politicians of Serbia.

19 Q. Thank you. Can we look briefly behind tab --

20 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is not perfectly clear. Mr. Emmerson, I

21 think you're asking whether this corruption was an interaction between

22 senior officials in the RDB and the criminal underworld in Serbia.

23 MR. EMMERSON: It included that, yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the witness said: "We are talking about a

25 huge problem involving the authority in Serbia," which doesn't answer the

Page 9142

1 question.

2 And then he continued: "The internal corruption within the

3 structures of authority of the Republic of Serbia." And he said: "This

4 included the police, security."

5 That still does not --


7 JUDGE ORIE: -- establish a link between the criminal underworld

8 and the authorities. So therefore, it's not an answer to your question,

9 I'm afraid.


11 Q. May I ask you specifically: Did you find evidence of connections

12 between officials within the RDB and criminals in Serbia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 Can we have a look, please, behind tab 13, first of all. I'm

16 going to ask you about the interview you conducted with Mr. Markovic in

17 custody on the 26th of June. So not about those wider ranging allegations

18 but about the refrigerator truck?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.

20 MR. RE: It's not an objection. Can we just move into private

21 session for one moment while Mr. Emmerson is formulating that question.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll move into private session.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in private session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 9143

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


25 Q. Before we look at the interview with Mr. Markovic on the 26th of

Page 9144

1 June, behind tab 13 is a document dated the 25th of May which is an MUP

2 summary of an investigation of the refrigerator truck case and describes

3 the background to the recovery of the truck, the circumstances surrounding

4 it being removed, the involvement of General Colonel Vlastimir Djordjevic,

5 and the suggestion that bodies were removed from it, and the truck then

6 set on fire and blown up.

7 And if we could just turn, please, in the English to page 3, the

8 pre-penultimate and penultimate paragraphs, and in the Serbian, page 3,

9 the last paragraph over onto page 4, we can see there that a working group

10 had been established to investigate this incident.

11 And the extract reads: "Operative information acquired by the

12 working group indicates that in March 1999, a working meeting was held in

13 the office of Slobodan Milosevic, then-President of the Federal Republic

14 of Yugoslavia. The meeting was attended by Vlajko Stojiljkovic, minister

15 of the interior; General Vlastimir Djordjevic, chief of the RJB;

16 General Radomir Markovic, chief of the RDB and others. On that occasion,

17 General Djordjevic raised the issue of clearing up the terrain of Kosovo

18 and Metohija. And in this regard, Slobodan Milosevic ordered Vlajko

19 Stojiljkovic to take measures to remove all traces which could indicate

20 the existence of evidence of the crimes committed." And then it goes on

21 to describe how that was said to have been done, which included:

22 "Clearing up the terrain in Kosovo and Metohija, where there had been

23 combat operations, with the aim of removing civilian victims who could

24 potentially become the subject of investigations by The Hague Tribunal."

25 Now, was it in respect of that part of the investigation that you

Page 9145

1 were then tasked to conduct the interview on the 26th of June with

2 Mr. Markovic?

3 A. Yes. But I don't know who this brief or information belongs to.

4 Q. It is a -- obviously a -- a MUP document, but I'm simply asking

5 you to confirm that that was the purpose of the 26th of June interview

6 with Mr. Markovic.

7 A. Yes. I believe that there is a statement I took from

8 Rade Markovic at the time about these activities. But still I don't know

9 whose document this is. It says: "MUP, UKP." But it hasn't been

10 registered under any number. It doesn't bear a stamp. It doesn't say to

11 whom it was sent. I'm looking at the Serbian version.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I have some difficulties in -- as far

13 as the -- your question is concerned. Was your question to ask the

14 witness whether his 26th of June interview served the purpose as set out

15 in this document; that is, that it was -- the interview was held in the

16 context of removing all traces which could indicate the existence of

17 evidence? Is that --

18 MR. EMMERSON: Quite specifically the question that I'm seeking

19 confirmation from the witness of is that he was tasked to interview

20 Mr. Markovic about the meeting in March 1999, which is referred to in the

21 pre-penultimate paragraph in the English translation on page 3.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was not clear to me.

23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Well --

24 JUDGE ORIE: So --

25 MR. EMMERSON: I think if I can just pick up -- pick up the

Page 9146

1 witness's last answer.

2 Q. If you turn behind tab 14, the statement that you took is there

3 set out. I'll conclude this topic, if I may, in just a couple of minutes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It is a quarter to 2.00, Mr. Emmerson.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm happy to conclude it at this point and

6 then pursue it.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then continue tomorrow because, otherwise,

8 another Trial Chamber will have to wait.

9 Mr. Stijovic, you may have noted when I urged the parties to -- to

10 focus on the most relevant topics that the Chamber is aware of your

11 concerns about leaving. The Chamber will also further inquire into the

12 travel arrangements that have been prepared so to see what is and what

13 would not be a problem as far as your schedule is concerned.

14 I would like to instruct you, as I did before, that you should not

15 speak with anyone about your testimony, whether already given or still to

16 be given. And we adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same

17 courtroom.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day

20 of October, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.