Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1222

 1                           Tuesday, 27 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.

12             Could we have appearances for the day, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Daniela Kravetz for

15     the Prosecution, with my colleagues Aditya Menon, Barbara Goy, our

16     Case Manager Line Pedersen, and our legal intern Thomas Dutton.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             And for the Defence of Mr. Haradinaj.

20             MR. EMMERSON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Ben Emmerson for

21     Ramush Haradinaj, together with Rod Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and

22     Andrew Strong.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

24             And for Mr. Balaj.

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Gregor Guy-Smith on

Page 1223

 1     behalf of Mr. Balaj, with Ms. Rohan and Mr. Mair.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.

 3             And for Mr. Brahimaj.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Richard Harvey, with

 5     Mr. Luke Boenisch and Ms. Rudina Jasini.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning.  Thank you so much.

 7             Mr. Emmerson -- I beg your pardon.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May we go into private -- into closed session.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry.  My apologies.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1224

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 9             Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honours, may we very briefly move into

11     private session so that can I clarify one issue with the witness, please.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1225











11 Pages 1225-1226 redacted. Private session.















Page 1227

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.  Thank

Page 1228

 1     you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:

 4        Q.   Witness, you told us yesterday about one meeting that you were

 5     aware of that had taken place between officers of FARK and officers of

 6     the existing KLA in the Dukagjin region shortly after your forces entered

 7     Kosovo.  Do you recall giving us that evidence yesterday?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   Based on the evidence of the senior FARK commander, I want to put

10     to you a more detailed account of the meetings that took place and see

11     whether you're in a position to comment on it, agree with it, or

12     contradict it from your own knowledge.  All right?

13        A.   Okay.

14        Q.   I want to suggest to you that there were three meetings that took

15     place:  The first on the 25th of June, 1998, in Jasiq, at which

16     Mr. Haradinaj was not present; the second that took place the following

17     day, on the 26th of June, in Jasiq and then in Junik, at which

18     Mr. Haradinaj was present; and the third which took place on the

19     30th of June in Junik, at which, again, Mr. Haradinaj was not present.

20             That is the agreed evidence in this case.  Are you in a position

21     to contradict that?

22        A.   For your information, the first meeting -- I have information

23     about the first meeting and the second one, but I'm not aware of a third

24     meeting.  And this might be because those days I was in Isniq village.

25        Q.   That's very helpful.  You're aware, then, that Mr. Haradinaj did

Page 1229

 1     not attend the first meeting on the 25th of June but that he did attend

 2     the second meeting on the 26th of June; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The record is not very clear here Mr. Emmerson.

 5     Did we say Mr. Haradinaj was not present on the 26th?

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  No, he was present on the 26th.  He was not

 7     present on the 25th.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  26th and 30th he was present.

 9             MR. EMMERSON:  No.  Just the 26th.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just the 26th.

11             MR. EMMERSON:

12        Q.   Now, you told us yesterday that you were not inside the room when

13     the discussions took place on the occasion when Mr. Haradinaj attended to

14     meet FARK officers.  That's right, is it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You were in an ante-room with other ordinary

17     rank-and-file soldiers; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   While the commanders were in a separate room, out of your

20     earshot; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So during the entirety of that occasion did you speak to

23     Mr. Haradinaj yourself at any time?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did he speak to you at any -- at any time?

Page 1230

 1        A.   No, no.

 2        Q.   Did you hear him say anything at any time?

 3        A.   No.  Because it was a separate room.

 4        Q.   So at no point on that day did you hear him say anything; is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   That's right.  Correct.

 7        Q.   And the next time you saw Mr. Haradinaj was on the occasion that

 8     you've told us about in private session; is that correct?  You haven't

 9     seen him between the two times.

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   So can we take it that up until the time when you -- which you've

12     told us about in private session, up until that date, you'd never heard

13     him speak?

14        A.   Personally, no.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'll come back to that a little later on, if I may.

16             Returning to the meeting on the 26th of June.  I asked you

17     yesterday if you understood what the disagreement between the forces was

18     all about.  And you told us that you had received an account from the

19     FARK officers about what had been discussed; is that right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   See, I suggested to you specifically, yesterday, that there was a

22     dispute between the two about the deployment of the FARK forces, with the

23     KLA side, headed by Mr. Haradinaj, arguing that the FARK soldiers and

24     officers should be distributed to reinforce and improve the existing

25     defences that been set up, whilst the FARK brigades, under Tahir Zemaj,

Page 1231

 1     considered it essential that they remain as a single unit, under a single

 2     command, in one location.

 3             Remember me putting that to you yesterday?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, can I just check: Are we in open

 6     session?  We are.  I'm seeing the Registrar nod, I think.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Great.

 9        Q.   When I asked you that yesterday, you said you didn't know that

10     that was the disagreement.  You've had a chance, perhaps, overnight to

11     think about it.  When you were told what had been discussed, did no one

12     tell you that that was the central point of disagreement between the two

13     forces?

14        A.   That was what I heard from the leaders of the FARK, the officers

15     of the FARK, namely that the other side didn't want them to go into the

16     deep -- to go deeper into the territory.

17        Q.   Pausing there so that the Judges understand the geography:  The

18     location where FARK was at the time of these meetings, Jasik and

19     Juniq [sic], that was, of course, on the western side of the main

20     Pec-Decan-Djakova road, wasn't it?

21        A.   Junik is not on that part of Peje-Decane road.

22        Q.   That wasn't my question.  I said Junik and Jasiq are to the west

23     of the main Pec-Decan-Djakova road, are they not?  Closer to the border

24     with Albania?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1232

 1        Q.   And the issue was whether and how the FARK forces would cross

 2     that road and enter into the territory on the eastern side; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked to speak closer to

 5     the microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, could you please get closer to the

 7     microphone when you speak because the interpreters don't hear you

 8     properly.

 9             MR. EMMERSON:

10        Q.   You see, you've been called, Mr. Witness, by the Prosecution to

11     give some evidence about conflicts between FARK and the KLA, but I'm

12     going to suggest to you that you have no idea what the real issues were

13     between the two leaderships.

14        A.   I am speaking only about what I heard from my superiors.  I said

15     that I was never present in any of the meetings.

16        Q.   But you've given evidence that this was a decision by the

17     Kosovo Liberation Army to stop FARK from entering.  But that's simply not

18     true, Witness 77.  It's just not true.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't believe -- that's not my

20     recollection of the witness evidence.  And if my colleague is going to be

21     referring to the evidence the witness gave yesterday, if we could have

22     transcript page reference and the exact testimony be put back to the

23     witness -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, the witness has just given the answer two

25     minutes ago.

Page 1233

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  This is paraphrasing, I think, the witness evidence

 2     not correctly.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  But I'm not -- but let me see if I've got it

 4     correct.

 5        Q.   You told us yesterday, Witness 77, and I suggest, again, this

 6     morning, that the KLA commanders were trying to stop the FARK forces

 7     entering deeper into Kosovo.  Is that your understanding of what was

 8     taking place?

 9        A.   It's not that I understood it that way, but things happened that

10     way.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's get something straight, Mr. Witness.

12             Did you just not say a few minutes ago that according to your

13     knowledge and information from the FARK officers the KLA officers stopped

14     the FARK troops from going deeper into the territory?

15             You used the word "territory."

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. EMMERSON:

19        Q.   You see, I'm going to suggest to you -- perhaps we'll see if it

20     can jog your memory.  What you're telling us is based on what you were

21     told, is that right, by senior commanders immediately after these

22     meetings about what was being discussed?  Is that right?  Have I

23     understood that correctly?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And, of course, amongst the senior FARK commanders was the senior

Page 1234

 1     FARK commander that I've referred to in closed session, whose name we're

 2     not using in open session, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Let me see if I can jog your memory about what you were told,

 5     then, by giving you his account and see if that assists your recollection

 6     of what was said to you at the time.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm going to object to that, Your Honour.

 8             Mr. Emmerson can put a proposition to the witness and ask him to

 9     agree or disagree with it, but I'm going to object to him --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is objectionable about that, in manner of --

11     of questioning?

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Because he can simply -- because he's going to, in

13     essence, be asking the witness to confirm or not confirm the evidence

14     given by another witness.  And as I had indicated earlier, this witness

15     is only able to give evidence on matters that were -- are within his

16     personal knowledge.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not answering my question, Madam Kravetz.

18     My question is:  What's objectionable about the manner of questions?

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  It's the form of the question.  If he -- my learned

20     colleague can put a proposition to the witness and ask him to agree or

21     disagree.  But I --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

23             MR. EMMERSON:

24        Q.   Let me put to you the words of the senior FARK commander, whom

25     you've told us that was one of your sources of information, given on oath

Page 1235

 1     in these -- in proceedings before this Tribunal.

 2             The disagreement was that, Mr. Haradinaj asked that senior

 3     officers be distributed in the operative units and in the villages and to

 4     carry out their tasks within the structure of the Dukagjin

 5     operational staff; however, FARK already had an established hierarchy and

 6     was not in a position to do such a thing, to systemise 23 officers and

 7     destroy the structure they entered with.  This was the friction.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Reference:  Transcript, T761494 and following.

 9        Q.   And then I'll just give you another quotation.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is this transcript --

11             MR. EMMERSON:  From the first trial, Your Honour.

12        Q.   And another quotation:

13             Ramush met with us when we crossed into Kosovo.  The meeting was

14     on the 26th of June, 1998, in Jasiq.  Ramush was there to inform FARK

15     that there was an active Dukagjini staff at the time and that FARK should

16     become a part of that structure.  At the same time FARK had its own

17     command which was the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Kosova and

18     as professional soldiers it was difficult to change plans.  This created

19     a friction.

20             MR. EMMERSON:  That is transcript 756091 and following.  End

21     quotation.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you take it quotation by quotation.

23             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  I certainly will do.  But perhaps I can put

24     the specific proposition to the witness.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

Page 1236

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I'm sorry.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before you do that - just to make sure that I

 3     understand this - is this the testimony of the senior commander about

 4     what happened in the meeting room or what was said in the meeting room?

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Or is this his testimony about what he told the

 7     men in the ante-room?

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  No, this is his testimony about what actually

 9     happened in the meeting room.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             MR. EMMERSON:

12        Q.   Now, the question I'm asking you, Witness 77, is whether you were

13     aware that the real source of the dispute was not that the KLA wanted to

14     keep FARK out of Kosovo but that they wanted to distribute the FARK

15     forces in a particular way within Kosovo?

16        A.   Is this a question for me?

17        Q.   Yes.  I think -- having heard the evidence of the senior FARK

18     commander, I'm inviting you to re-examine your recollection and to tell

19     the Chamber whether it really is the case that you were told that this

20     was the KLA trying to prevent FARK forces from entering, or the KLA

21     trying to agree how they should be distributed when they entered.

22             You can understand the difference between the two.

23        A.   I understand the difference.  That was what I heard from the

24     senior commanders.  But, as far as I know, they didn't agree to be placed

25     under the structure under the command of the KLA because they were

Page 1237

 1     representing the forces of the Republic of Kosova.  They didn't want to

 2     be placed under the command of others, because these others were people

 3     who were not familiar with the military art, and that's why they refused

 4     to be distributed to other brigades of the KLA.

 5        Q.   So you did know, then, that that was the source of the

 6     disagreement, the manner of distribution?  You knew that; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Why did you tell us yesterday that you didn't know that?

 9        A.   I wasn't asked the question, as far as I remember.

10        Q.   I asked you that question yesterday afternoon, Witness 77, quite

11     specifically.  I put it to you that the distribution of FARK forces

12     within Kosovo was the source of the disagreement, and you said:  Not as

13     far as you were aware.

14        A.   I can't remember saying that.  Maybe it's a human mistake.

15        Q.   Are you trying to present a certain picture to the Tribunal here?

16     Are you trying to create a picture of conflict as between the two forces

17     which is different from the reality, Witness 77?

18        A.   No, I'm not trying to do that.  The reason why I gave the answer

19     that I gave was maybe because I didn't get the question.  I didn't

20     understand the question clearly.  And that's what I heard from the

21     officers, that they didn't want to be distributed.  And that's why, after

22     that, they were asked to leave Kosova.

23        Q.   I'm going to read you a passage of your testimony yesterday,

24     Witness 77.  This is page 1219, line 24 and following.

25             I asked you this question:

Page 1238

 1             "I'm suggesting to you that there was a dispute between the

 2     commanders of FARK, including Tahir Zemaj, and the commanders of the KLA

 3     inside Kosovo, including Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Maloku, about the

 4     deployment of FARK soldiers.  And I can put it a bit more specifically.

 5             "Those who were already organised on the ground inside Kosovo

 6     wanted the FARK brigades to be distributed amongst the already organising

 7     village defence units, whereas the FARK commanders under Zemaj considered

 8     it essential that all of the 225 FARK officers remain together and in one

 9     place?

10             "That was the dispute, wasn't it?"

11             To which you answered:

12             "I don't believe so.  I don't know."

13             Why did you say "I don't believe so" yesterday, when you're now

14     telling us that you knew that that was the dispute, Witness?

15        A.   There existed a disagreement.  But yesterday when I said I don't

16     know, I didn't remember.  Maybe my memory was refreshed today.  I don't

17     think this is a bad thing.  I remember that there were two options given

18     to them; either they go under the command of Haradinaj and Maloku, or

19     turn back to Albania.

20        Q.   You see, I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Witness, that you've

21     come here, as your evidence shows - I'm going to put it to you - that

22     you've come here with an agenda to seek to discredit Mr. Haradinaj.

23             What's your response to that suggestion?

24        A.   I've not come here to discredit anyone.  I am simply recounting

25     here what I know.  I'm not here to seek revenge.  I'm here to seek

Page 1239

 1     justice.

 2        Q.   You understand that you've given a solemn declaration, don't you,

 3     and you know what that means?

 4        A.   Of course.  That's why I'm here.  I won't speak any word that I

 5     don't know or I haven't heard said.

 6        Q.   You see, when I ask you specifically was it your understanding

 7     that a particular event occurred and you say no, when, in fact, the

 8     answer is yes, do you understand that that is not consistent with your

 9     oath?

10        A.   I think it does -- it is consistent.  Because I'm here to speak

11     the truth and only the truth, what I know.

12        Q.   So you think that if you say the opposite of the truth that is

13     consistent with your oath; is that what you're telling us?

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has answered the question.

15             MR. EMMERSON:  Let's move on.

16        Q.   You sought, I suggest, yesterday, to create the impression that

17     Ramush Haradinaj and the Kosovo Liberation Army forces were being

18     obstructive.  That was your intention in the testimony you gave

19     yesterday.  Is that right or wrong?

20        A.   That's correct.  That's my impression.  And all the other

21     commanders.

22        Q.   I'm going to, again, see if it jogs your memory about what you

23     were told by the FARK commanders concerning Mr. Haradinaj's attitude.

24     I'm going to read to you again from the testimony of the senior FARK

25     commander who was present inside that meeting.

Page 1240

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  And this is transcript 7613, line 19.

 2             "Q.  Now, you describe in your witness statement Mr. Haradinaj,

 3     in that meeting of the 26th of June, you describe him as being controlled

 4     an orderly.  Is that an accurate description?

 5             "A.  Yes, a very accurate description.  He was a very

 6     constructive, moderate, this is the impression that I got."

 7             Was that the impression that was conveyed to you, Witness 77,

 8     that Mr. Haradinaj was controlled, orderly, constructive, and moderate in

 9     that meeting?  Because you've told us that he was obstructive, as you

10     understood it.

11        A.   What I know is the words that I heard from my officers.  I was

12     not in the meeting, and I don't know who said what in the meeting.  These

13     words I only hear from you here.

14        Q.   Yes.  You see, you gave evidence without that information

15     available to you, but I'm going to suggest to you again you have

16     deliberately tried to create a misleading impression to the Trial Chamber

17     that Mr. Haradinaj's position was obstructive, when, in fact, it was

18     quite the reverse.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  My learned colleague is putting a question he has

20     already put to the witness which the witness has answered.  It's just put

21     a different --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson.

23             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm putting it on the basis of yet further

24     evidence that the witness is misleading the Chamber, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not evidence.  That's what you're

Page 1241

 1     suggesting to him.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I'm making the suggestion based on now the

 3     fact that not only has he misled the Chamber about his state of knowledge

 4     concerning what the essence of the dispute was, but that he's now mislead

 5     the Chamber, I suggest, about the nature of what was said to him

 6     concerning Mr. Haradinaj's so-suggested -- what is suggested to be an

 7     obstructive attitude towards the FARK forces.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, ma'am.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, in my view that is really a matter for

10     submissions to be made at a later stage when my learned colleague

11     addresses matters regarding this witness evidence.

12             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm perfectly, with respect, entitled to explore

13     the credibility of this witness, and that's what I'm doing.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

15             MR. EMMERSON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   When you told us yesterday and now, in terms this morning, that

17     you understood Mr. Haradinaj to have been obstructive in those

18     discussions, is that information you say you got from the senior FARK

19     commanders?

20        A.   Of course.  I was not in the meeting personally, and I am

21     repeating this for several times now.

22        Q.   But we've now, as you have heard, there has been direct evidence

23     from somebody who was the senior FARK commander in the meeting to

24     precisely the opposite effect.

25             The question I'm asking you, Witness 77, is whether you are

Page 1242

 1     making up what you are saying in order to create a misleading impression

 2     to the Tribunal, because the source of the information, the senior FARK

 3     commander, has given this Tribunal, on oath, contradictory evidence to

 4     that which you say came to you from the senior FARK commanders who were

 5     present?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question asked and answered, Mr. Emmerson.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.  Just to -- I couldn't help overhearing

11     the sotto voce comment.  Yes, that is the answer the witness gave.  I'm

12     suggesting that he's lying.  That's all I want to explore.

13             I'm suggest that the witness is deliberately giving this Chamber

14     a misleading impression of what he was told, given that we have it from

15     the horse's mouth as to what the truth was and given that the witness

16     himself has already acknowledged that he gave the Tribunal evidence

17     yesterday that he did not know that the nature of the dispute was about

18     constructive deployment, whereas he now tells us that he did.  There are

19     in circumstances such as that -- perfectly proper to explore whether he

20     is deliberately misleading the Chamber.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson, it may very well be that the witness

22     is misleading the Chamber.  It may very well be that the witness heard

23     what he heard from whomever he heard it, which is different from the

24     senior FARK commander.

25             I think you have made your point that --

Page 1243

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, may I ask --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You've made your point that what he says he knows

 3     is different from what the senior commander told this -- the Tribunal

 4     in -- the Trial Chamber in the previous case.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, but also what he says he knows is different

 6     from what he said he knew yesterday, on oath.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, and that you have established.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 9        Q.   Did you speak to the senior FARK commander, the man whom we've

10     named in private session?  Did you speak to him about these meetings?

11        A.   What do you mean, "did you speak to him"?

12        Q.   You have told us that after the meeting you received a report

13     from the senior FARK commanders, and I'm asking you whether amongst those

14     who you spoke to about the meeting was the senior FARK commander?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ms. Kravetz.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, my colleague Mr. Emmerson has referred

17     to three meetings when he's --

18             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm sorry.  If the witness could wait.

20             He's referred to three meetings when he started this line of

21     question.  If we could have a clarification as to which meeting exactly

22     he's referring to.

23             MR. EMMERSON:  If Ms. Kravetz follows the evidence, there's only

24     one meeting at which Mr. Haradinaj was present.  So there's only one

25     meeting that I'm referring to.

Page 1244

 1        Q.   Now, you've told us, Witness 77, that after that meeting you

 2     received information from the FARK officers who had been in the meeting,

 3     and I'm asking you whether you received information or discussed the

 4     meeting with the senior FARK commander?

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  I still consider it's necessary for my learned

 6     colleague to clarify which of the meetings he's referring to.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's the meeting that was attended by

 8     Mr. Haradinaj, Madam Kravetz.  And the witness knows that, doesn't he?

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  There is a difference, though, between the -- the

10     villages that have been mentioned, so I think it's still important to

11     refer --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is -- what have villages got to do with the

13     meeting?  The meeting is the meeting that was attended by Mr. Haradinaj.

14     There were three meetings, two of which he didn't attend.  And they have

15     gone through that part of the evidence with the witness.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Maybe -- if the witness could remove his head

17     phones, I can --

18             MR. EMMERSON:  Let me make it clear.  It will save time.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Then it's -- yes, please.

20             MR. EMMERSON:

21        Q.   I'm asking you about the meeting attended by Mr. Haradinaj, and

22     you've told us you saw him walk into a room where a meeting took place.

23     And you've told us that after that meeting you received information from

24     the FARK commanders who were in the meeting about what was being said.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you give him the date, please.

Page 1245

 1             MR. EMMERSON:

 2        Q.   The date is the 25th -- I'm sorry, the 26th of June.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  But he -- I think the witness is unaware of dates

 4     but ...

 5        Q.   The meeting at which Mr. Haradinaj was present, where you've told

 6     us you saw him walk into the room, you remained in an ante-chamber, and

 7     afterwards, you've told us, you received information from the FARK

 8     officers about what had been discussed?

 9             And the question I'm asking you is this:  Amongst the FARK

10     officers giving that information, was the named senior FARK commander -

11     and you know who I'm referring to - was he one of your sources of

12     information?  Did you speak to him?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... just before you

14     comment the question, I see Madam Kravetz is on her feet.

15             Yes, Madam Kravetz.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  The problem with the way the question is being put

17     is that Mr. Emmerson has referred to the testimony of the senior FARK

18     commander, and it is not clear from the evidence he has given and the

19     evidence the witness has given that we're talking about the same meeting.

20             MR. EMMERSON:  Absolutely --

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  So that's why I'm asking if you could just

22     clarify --

23             MR. EMMERSON:  It's absolutely clear.  And if Ms. Kravetz is

24     remotely familiar with the evidence, she would know this.  There was only

25     one meeting attended by Mr. Haradinaj, as the senior FARK commander

Page 1246

 1     himself testified.  And if Ms. Kravetz has read his testimony, she would

 2     know that.

 3             So he is referring to that meeting.  This witness is referring to

 4     that meeting.  There is no conceivable possibility for misunderstanding.

 5     Thank you.

 6             So this is simply obstructionist objections.  If Ms. Kravetz

 7     knows the evidence, she wouldn't be making that point.

 8        Q.   Now, let me ask the question to you again, Witness 77.  Was the

 9     senior FARK commander one of those you spoke to about the meeting that

10     had taken place with Mr. Haradinaj; yes or no?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Who was the commander that you spoke to, please?

13        A.   It was a more senior commander than the one you mentioned.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... can I have his name, please.

15        A.   I received the information from Colonel Tahir Zemaj.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.  Because you're aware that

17     Colonel Tahir Zemaj has written about this meeting in publications,

18     aren't you?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   I see.  Have you never read anything that Colonel Tahir Zemaj

21     wrote about these meetings?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   I see.  Finally this, on this topic.  The evidence of the senior

24     FARK commander - and I'm quoting transcript T7614, line 15 - is as

25     follows, and this relates to both of the first two meetings the 25th and

Page 1247

 1     26th:

 2             "At those first two meetings there were differences of opinion

 3     but there were constructive discussions about how to move forward and

 4     accommodate the new force.  Both sides wanted to reach an agreement but

 5     neither was ready to abandon its position."

 6             Is that a fair summary of what you understood the position to be?

 7        A.   I think the matter stood like that, yes.

 8        Q.   And so why did you tell us that the position of the KLA was

 9     obstructive then, just a few moments ago?

10        A.   An agreement was not reached.  And, as I said earlier, the FARK

11     forces were told to go back where they came from because they wouldn't be

12     allowed to go deeper into Kosovo.

13        Q.   There was a third meeting in Junik on the 30th of June, and,

14     again, no agreement was reached; is that correct?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that meeting.

16        Q.   Because at that stage you were in Isniq; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You see, you told us yesterday that there was a gap of ten days

19     between the meeting attended by Mr. Haradinaj and the entry of the FARK

20     forces.  But that's simply not right, is it?  FARK forces entered on the

21     30th of June, four days after the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj, I suggest.

22        A.   I can't remember.

23        Q.   If you can't remember something, Witness, when somebody asks you

24     how long it was, you say, "I can't remember."  What you don't say is, "It

25     was ten days," if you do not know.  Do you understand that?

Page 1248

 1        A.   I understand.

 2        Q.   Why did you say ten days?

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have a transcript page reference where the

 4     witness said --

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I'll have that looked out.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- that there were ten days.

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  I'll have it looked out, the transcript reference.

 8        Q.   Why did you say ten days?

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have the transcript reference before we

10     continue.

11             MR. EMMERSON:  We'll take a pause.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.

13             MR. EMMERSON:  Page 1163, line 1.

14             Again, I would ask Ms. Kravetz to keep her objections reasonable,

15     because this is simply time-taking.

16             The question is from Ms. Kravetz herself, 1163, line --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Emmerson, I'm not quite sure what

18     you are saying about Madam Kravetz.  She only asked for a page reference.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  I appreciate that.  But the reality is I wouldn't

20     have put the question without having a sound basis for doing it.  I

21     indicated that I was perfectly happy to look up the reference and provide

22     it, instead of which we lose -- we lose minutes in cross-examination.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But for her also to be able to prepare her

24     re-examination you need to give a page reference at the time when you

25     quote it.  You can't say you're going to have it looked up, Mr. Emmerson.

Page 1249

 1     Sorry.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  Okay.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.  1163.

 5             "Q.  And when you say that these officers, that is, Tahir Zemaj

 6     and the other officers, were not welcome, whom are you referring to when

 7     you say they were not welcome?  By whom were they not welcome?

 8             "A.  As I said, in the meeting there were three people, Ramush,

 9     Naim Maloku, and the third person.

10             "Q.  Have you completed your answer, sir?  I was asking:  Who did

11     not welcome Tahir Zemaj and the other officers?

12             "A.  Ramush, Naim Maloku, and the third person.

13             "Q.  Thank you.  I think now it's clear.

14             "As a result of this meeting between Ramush Haradinaj,

15     Tahir Zemaj, and the other officers you've referred to, did the FARK

16     forces leave the village of Jasiq?

17             "A.  No.

18             "Q.  For how long did they remain in that village?

19             "A.  For about ten days, I would say.

20             "Q.  And after those ten days, where did these [sic] forces go?

21             "A.  They remained there until Sali Ceku, Ismet Ceku ... and

22     myself --"

23             "Q.  Can I stop you there --"

24             And then we enter private session.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, if I go back to the question my

Page 1250

 1     learned colleague was putting to the witness - and this is today's

 2     transcript page 24, line 20 - he put to the witness:

 3             "You see, you told us yesterday there was a gap of ten days

 4     between the meeting attended by Haradinaj and the entry of FARK forces."

 5             That is very different from the evidence that Mr. Emmerson has

 6     just -- from yesterday that Mr. Emmerson has just read out to the

 7     witness.

 8             So the reference to the ten days had to do from when --

 9             MR. EMMERSON:  Before my learned friend gives evidence, perhaps

10     we can ask the witness what he meant by it.

11        Q.   When you said yesterday that the forces of FARK were in Jasiq for

12     ten days, you were asked the question how long they remained.

13             Let me just put the question to you in terms:

14             "As a result of this meeting between Ramush Haradinaj,

15     Tahir Zemaj, and the other officers you've referred to, as a result of

16     that meeting, did the FARK forces leave?

17             "No.

18             "For how long did they remain in that village?

19             "A.  For about ten days.

20             What did you mean by "for about ten days"?  From when till when?

21        A.   As far as I can see here, I am not very clear of the question.  I

22     think you're asking a different question now than what asked before.

23             If the question before was how many days they remained in Jasiq,

24     I said ten days, approximately.  I don't think the question was put to me

25     the way you are putting it to me now.

Page 1251

 1        Q.   Well, let me put the question to you now then.  How long after

 2     the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj do you say that FARK forces entered

 3     Kosovo -- sorry, moved from the area on the western side of the road to

 4     the eastern side of the road in Isniq?

 5        A.   Approximately ten days, I think.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Well, what I'm putting to you is that the FARK forces

 7     entered four days later, on the 30th of June.

 8        A.   It could be.

 9        Q.   So we're back where we started.  And I'm suggesting to you that

10     if you don't know the answer to something you should not give a time

11     estimate.  If somebody says to you, "How long between the meeting and the

12     move to Jasiq," do you understand that if you don't know the answer, you

13     should say, "I don't know," rather than say it's ten days, when you're

14     not in a position to contradict the submission that it's four?

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I'm a bit confused with the question.

16     It has changed a couple of times.  My learned colleague was asking about

17     the move from Jasiq to Isniq and now he's asking from the entry of the

18     FARK to the move to Jasiq.

19             MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, I'm --

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  The time-period -- I mean, it's not very clear what

21     the ten days referred to, whether the entry of FARK forces into Kosovo

22     and then to Jasiq or whether the move from Jasiq to Isniq.  It has been

23     stated in two ways by Mr. Emmerson.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have probably seen it stated in three ways.  I'm

25     not quite sure that I'm following, myself.

Page 1252

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Let me clarify, then.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  May I add, Mr. Emmerson, that the witness answer

 3     was not ten days.  The witness answer was "about ten days,"

 4     approximately --

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Approximately ten days.

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I accept that.  But four days -- it's a

 8     matter of opinion, but four days may not be thought be approximately ten

 9     days, in terms of accuracy and reliability.

10             Part of Your Honours' function is to determine the reliability of

11     the witness, whether information that he gives can be relied upon.

12             And if one looks at the transcript - and I did make it absolutely

13     clear, so there should be no misunderstanding - Ms. Kravetz sought to

14     suggest that the reference I made to the transcript yesterday was unfair

15     because, in fact, maybe the witness was saying ten days in total, rather

16     than ten days from the time of the meeting until the entry to Isniq.

17             So I asked the witness just a moment ago, at page 27, line 16:

18             "How long after the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj do you say ...

19     FARK forces entered Kosovo ... moved from the area on the western side of

20     the road to the eastern side ..."

21             "Approximately ten days ..."

22             Now, if that needs clarification, I'll ask the question again.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, the problem with how the question was

24     put, on page 28, line 1, because there he talks about how long between

25     the meeting and the move to Jasiq, and then it says: "... do you

Page 1253

 1     understand that if you don't understand [sic] the answer, you should say

 2     so."  That is --

 3             MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- that is the confusion that I'm pointing at.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  I think that's a transcription error because I

 6     think the question I asked was Isniq.  But I'll put it again.

 7        Q.   When you say ten days, Witness 77, are you referring to the

 8     ten-day estimate between the meeting and the time when the FARK forces

 9     moved to Isniq?

10        A.   Can you repeat the question, please.

11        Q.   You've given us a ten-day period from the date of the meeting.

12     Is it a period of ten days that you say is the time between the date of

13     the meeting with Mr. Haradinaj and the date of the move to Isniq?

14        A.   That's correct.

15             MR. EMMERSON:  I hope it's clear now for Ms. Kravetz.

16             Can we move --

17        Q.   Just one further question.  When the movement took place,

18     whatever date it was - and I'm suggesting to you it was on the

19     30th of June - did the FARK forces entering or moving towards Isniq, did

20     that involve them crossing the main Peja-Decan-Djakova road?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, you had to pass through that road.

22        Q.   And did the FARK forces enter marching under a KLA banner?

23        A.   Under the banner of the brigade, the 134rd Brigade of the KLA.

24     The emblems of the soldiers were red UCK/KLA, not FARK, as it's being

25     said now.

Page 1254

 1        Q.   Yes.  So that we're clear, so the Tribunal understand:  They

 2     entered wearing Kosovo Liberation Army/UCK insignia, didn't they?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did the soldiers regard themselves as being part of the same

 5     force as the UCK inside Kosovo or a different force?

 6        A.   I can speak only on behalf of myself, not of the others.  I

 7     considered myself as a soldier of the Liberation Army of Kosovo.

 8        Q.   The KLA?

 9        A.   I didn't make any distinction, myself.

10        Q.   Were you wearing KLA insignia?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And did you, in fact, march through the village of

13     Gllogjan, or, rather, did the forces March through the village of

14     Gllogjan on their way to Isniq?

15        A.   To my recollection, they marched.  Because I myself was in Isniq.

16     The forces marched up to the village of Rexhe, as far as I know.  Then

17     there were some trucks that went to fetch them.  Some lorries took them

18     and transported them to Isniq.

19        Q.   The question was: Did the FARK forces pass through the village of

20     Gllogjan en route to Isniq?

21        A.   Yes, certainly they did.  Because that was the only open route.

22        Q.   And they were permitted to pass?

23        A.   Yes, they were.  They arrived in Isniq in the morning.

24        Q.   Well, I'm going to now move beyond the incident that was dealt

25     with in private session, because I'll deal with that towards the end.

Page 1255

 1             I want to move forwards now, please, to the time when the FARK

 2     forces moved from Isniq to Prapaqan.

 3             First of all, how long after their arrival, in your estimation,

 4     did the FARK forces remain in Isniq before they moved to Prapaqan?

 5        A.   I can't be precise.  I don't recall very well.  I can't be

 6     precise.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us whether it was days or weeks?  Or months?

 8        A.   I might say for some weeks.

 9        Q.   The barracks in Prapaqan had been newly equipped by the

10     Kosovo Liberation Army in the Dukagjini plain, hadn't they?

11        A.   As far as I know, there was not a single equipment in that

12     school.

13        Q.   Were there beds?

14        A.   The village helped -- a nearby village helped, Dubovik village

15     helped, to prepare some beds within a very short time, but the school had

16     nothing in terms of equipment.

17        Q.   You mentioned Rrustem Tetaj yesterday, and you said that he was

18     the commander in Lluke.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Mr. Tetaj testified before this Tribunal that the funding for the

21     Prapaqan barracks had been provided to him by Mr. Haradinaj and then made

22     available to the FARK brigades.  Did you know that?

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Could we have a reference for that, Your Honour.

24             MR. EMMERSON:  Last trial: 3755, line 14; 3750, line 3.

25        Q.   Did you know that these barracks had been earmarked by

Page 1256

 1     Mr. Haradinaj and funding provided in order to house the FARK brigade?

 2        A.   No, I didn't know that.  I don't even believe that.

 3        Q.   I see.  Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Mr. Tetaj testified

 4     that he organised for the FARK soldiers to stay in Prapaqan.  Is that

 5     right or not, as far as you knew?

 6        A.   It's better if I say I don't know.

 7        Q.   Well, if you don't know, it certainly is better that you say you

 8     don't know.

 9             But were you there when the move to Prapaqan took place, when the

10     forces of the FARK arrived at Prapaqan?  Were you there?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Were you aware that Skender Rexhahmetaj, who testified in this

13     trial, and Rrustem Tetaj, who testified in the last trial, were there to

14     meet the FARK forces and welcome them to the Prapaqan barracks?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   Were you aware that the Prapaqan barracks had been provided as a

17     result of an agreement between Tahir Zemaj and Ramush Haradinaj?

18        A.   I don't know of any agreement.

19        Q.   The facility, I suggest, was made available to you in Prapaqan so

20     that you could move from Isniq - you being the FARK forces - was made

21     available to you by Mr. Haradinaj and his subzone commanders Mr. Tetaj

22     and Mr. Rexhahmetaj; you were given it by the KLA, I suggest.  Is that

23     right?

24        A.   I said I don't know.

25        Q.   Not only that, but there were already KLA soldiers stationed in

Page 1257

 1     the Prapaqan barracks when you arrived who were then integrated within

 2     your FARK brigade.  That's right, isn't it?  You must know that.

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   Where were you?  I thought you were in Prapaqan.

 5        A.   I was recovering, sir, at that time.

 6        Q.   Where were you recovering?

 7        A.   In Isniq.

 8        Q.   Did you go to Prapaqan at all?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  Certainly.

10        Q.   Because you've told us about an incident that took place at

11     Prapaqan, haven't you, a confrontation?

12        A.   I was there.

13        Q.   You were there, then.  That happened within a couple of days of

14     the arrival of the FARK forces, didn't it, that incident?

15        A.   I don't remember accurately when it occurred, but I know how it

16     occurred.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continued] ... would that be

18     a convenient moment, Mr. Emmerson?

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Indeed, Your honour.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  To do so, may the Chamber please move into closed

21     session.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1258

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 9             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 11.00.

10             Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson -- I beg your pardon.

14             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

15                           [Closed session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 1259

 1             Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:

 3        Q.   Witness 77, I want to go back now to the dates, please, and the

 4     chronology of the move to Prapaqan just so the Trial Chamber has the

 5     accurate picture.

 6             I'm going to suggest to you - and there is agreed evidence to

 7     this effect - that the date upon which the FARK forces moved from the

 8     west side of the road to Isniq was the 30th of June, after the last

 9     meeting in Junik.

10        A.   It may be.  I don't recall very well.

11        Q.   And, again, I'm going to suggest to you that the date of the move

12     to the barracks at Prapaqan which had been provided to the FARK soldiers

13     by the KLA under the command of Ramush Haradinaj was the 9th of July.

14        A.   It may be.  I don't recall.

15        Q.   Because you told us earlier on, when pressed, you thought that

16     the FARK forces had been stationed at Isniq for weeks.  In fact, the

17     agreed evidence is that they were stationed at Isniq for one week and two

18     days.  That's evidence admitted by agreement from the previous trial.

19             So if you could just clarify:  You're not in a position to

20     contradict that, are you?

21        A.   I am not.  I don't recall very well.  I thought that they stayed

22     there one or two weeks.

23        Q.   Well, just so that we're clear:  The incident which we're going

24     to ask some questions about in private session, that occurred between

25     those two dates, between the entry into -- into Isniq on the 30th of June

Page 1260

 1     and the move to Prapaqan on the 9th of July, it was during that period

 2     that that incident occurred.  Do you see that?

 3        A.   Yes, I know that.

 4        Q.   Now, you've also referred to a confrontation that took place at

 5     the Prapaqan barracks in which Mr. Haradinaj attended and expelled the

 6     officers, leaving the soldiers behind.  Do you remember that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Again, the unchallenged evidence is that that incident occurred

 9     on the 10th of July, the day after the move to the Prapaqan barracks.

10        A.   I cannot challenge that because I don't remember very well the

11     date.  But I know that I was there.  The date, I can't remember.

12        Q.   So if you were there on the 10th of July, you were certainly in

13     Prapaqan the day after the move of the FARK forces to the Prapaqan

14     barracks.  Does that help you work out whether you were there on the day

15     of the move?  You've told us a little earlier on you were not there

16     because you were still recovering in Isniq.

17        A.   I was recovering, that's true.  But I don't think it was one day

18     after, as you said, as you put to me.  I can't confirm it.

19        Q.   There's a very, very considerable body of other evidence in this

20     case which confirms that it was the 9th of July that the move took place,

21     and there's a very considerable body of other evidence all agreed that

22     the incident, the confrontation, took place on the 10th of July.  Indeed,

23     there are minutes of a meeting that day.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Kravetz.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has already indicated that he can't

Page 1261

 1     confirm the date when this occurred.  He has answered the question.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, what I'm trying to do, Your Honours, to

 3     isolate when he arrived at Prapaqan.  There's only one day possible, and

 4     I just want to understand whether he arrived on the day of the move or on

 5     the day of the incident.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  I believe he has already answered that as well, and

 7     he has already indicated that he does not remember the exact date.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, let me put the question another way.

 9        Q.   You say you were there on the 10th of July when the confrontation

10     took place, at which --

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is not a correct statement of the witness

12     evidence.  The witness does not remember when the confrontation took

13     place.  He has already indicated he does not remember the date.

14             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, let's put it this way: There is absolutely

15     no dispute between the parties that the confrontation took place on the

16     10th of July.  And without going into all of the evidence which in due

17     course will be available to the Trial Chamber, there are minutes,

18     recorded minutes, of the meeting that followed from that incident that

19     day.  So there's no doubt at all that the incident took place on the

20     10th of July.

21        Q.   And my question is - you say you were there at Prapaqan when that

22     incident took place - my question is:  Did you arrive there that day or

23     had you arrived there before then?

24        A.   I told you, I don't remember.

25        Q.   You --

Page 1262

 1        A.   But I know that I was in the Prapaqan barracks for some days by

 2     then.

 3        Q.   So you're saying you had been in Prapaqan for some days, you,

 4     yourself, had been physically present in Prapaqan in the barracks for

 5     some days before the confrontation which the officers were expelled; is

 6     that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I'm going to suggest to you that on all of the evidence that

 9     cannot be the truth, Witness 77, because we have independent and

10     confirmed and agreed evidence that the FARK did not move to the barracks

11     until the day before that incident.

12             So I'm going to ask you to examine your recollection again.  Are

13     you sure you were there for some days before that incident took place?

14        A.   To my recollection, I was in Prapaqan barracks before that

15     incident occurred, and I'm repeating it.  This is how I remember it.

16        Q.   It's important that you understand, as I said to you earlier on,

17     the need to give accurate evidence according to your oath.  And I'm going

18     to suggest to you that the evidence will prove incontrovertibly that what

19     you've just said cannot be true.  And so I'm going to invite you again to

20     examine whether you are sure that you had been there for some days before

21     the incident took place.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Kravetz.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Objection, Your Honours.  My learned colleague has

24     put this question to the witness repeatedly in different forms.  The

25     witness has already said - and the latest answer is on page 38, line 12 -

Page 1263

 1     that to his recollection he was there before the incident occurred.

 2             Now, it's a matter for submissions --

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  No, just --

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- at a later stage --

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  No, it's --

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- whether the witness recollection is right or

 7     not.  This is his recollection, and he has responded to the question.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  With respect, it's not solely a matter of

 9     recollection.  If this witness is not telling the truth, that's something

10     I'm entitled to explore.  And as Your Honour also find in due course, the

11     chronology that I've outlined is incontrovertible and agreed.  It follows

12     that the witness cannot be right when he says that he had been there for

13     several days.

14             Now, what I want to do is to give him an opportunity to say

15     whether he may be mistaken or whether he insists on the position that he

16     is taking.  And it's no good Ms. Kravetz saying he was there before the

17     incident.  His testimony is he was there some days before the incident.

18     A multiple of days.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The problem, Madam Kravetz, is that I think in the

20     last --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say some days, it may be two

22     or three days.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Well, the witness is taking what I was

24     going to say out of my mouth.  That's fine.

25             MR. EMMERSON:

Page 1264

 1        Q.   So you were certainly there the day before the incident; you're

 2     sure of that, are you?

 3        A.   Yes, I'm sure.

 4        Q.   So if it is the position that everybody in this trial is agreed

 5     on the evidence that the incident took place on the 10th of July, it

 6     follows you were definitely there on 9th of July; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You said two or three.  You didn't say one or two.  So does it

 9     follow you were there on the 8th of July as well?

10             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, the witness has already indicated that

11     he's not clear as to the dates when he was there.  He has provided an

12     answer --

13             MR. EMMERSON:  Sorry --

14             MS. KRAVETZ: -- to this question.

15             MR. EMMERSON:  -- that's simply wrong.  He's just said he's sure

16     that he was there on the 9th.  And I'm asking him, is he also sure he was

17     there on the 8th.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  That was an answer following a question, which

19     said:  If it's the position that everybody in this trial is agreed that

20     the incident took place on the 10th of July, it follows that you were

21     definitely there on the 9th of July.

22             So ...

23             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  It is the position that everyone in this

24     trial is agreed that the incident took place on the 10th of July, and

25     Ms. Kravetz ought to know that.  Therefore I'm asking whether the witness

Page 1265

 1     is reserving to himself some area of uncertainty about the 8th or whether

 2     he is committing himself to saying he is sure he was there.  Plainly,

 3     that has different ramifications for his credibility.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Overruled, Madam Kravetz.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:

 6        Q.   So, you've told us you were definitely there on the 9th.  Were

 7     you definitely there on the 8th?

 8        A.   It is possible that I was there on the 8th.  I can't remember,

 9     though.  I told you that I'm not very good with dates.  But I know that I

10     was there.

11        Q.   If, as you've told us, you're sure you were there on the 9th,

12     then you were there on the very day FARK forces moved into Prapaqan

13     barracks, I suggest.  So perhaps you would assist us with your

14     recollection of that significant event.

15        A.   I can't remember whether I was there the day when the FARK forces

16     entered the barracks.  I -- I can't recollect.

17        Q.   We'll check the transcript.  Because I thought before the break

18     you said you were not there.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Perhaps somebody could check that, please.

20        Q.   Before the break I asked you that question, and you said you were

21     not there, not that you couldn't remember one way or the other.  What is

22     the position:  Were you there, were you not there, or don't you know?

23        A.   I said that I was there the day of the incident but I can't

24     remember the date.  My dates are not coinciding with yours.  I told you

25     that I was in Prapaqan.  I'm sure that I was there.  I've not come here

Page 1266

 1     to make up stories or to lie, as you said earlier.  I'm describing you

 2     the reality the way I saw it.

 3        Q.   Witness 77, please don't try and shelter behind your uncertainty

 4     about dates.  I'm asking you about events, not dates.  And I'm asking you

 5     very clearly whether you were there on that very significant day when the

 6     FARK forces moved in to the barracks at Prapaqan.  Before the break, you

 7     told us, categorically, that you were not.  When I've put the dates to

 8     you, you are now saying that you don't know whether you were or you

 9     weren't.  What is the truth?

10        A.   I did not say I was not there.  I said I was there.

11             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, transcript page 32, line 14.

12             Question, line 12:

13             "But were you there when the move to Prapaqan took place, when

14     the forces of the FARK arrived at Prapaqan?  Were you there?

15             "A.  No."

16        Q.   Why did you say "no" before the break, Witness 77, if you're now

17     telling us you don't know one way or the other whether you were there?

18     Why did you deny it?

19        A.   I'm not denying it.  I said that it is possible that I've

20     forgotten.  I know that I was there, but I don't know what days.  And it

21     is possible that I went there in the afternoon.

22        Q.   You didn't tell us that you weren't sure before the break,

23     Witness 77.  You didn't know one way or the other, you couldn't remember.

24     You were categorical in saying you were not there when the FARK forces

25     arrived at Prapaqan.  What is your evidence: Were you there, were you not

Page 1267

 1     there, or don't you know?

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has just answered that question,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, let me put it another way, then.

 5        Q.   You just said a moment ago in answer to that question that what

 6     you had said was that you didn't know.  In fact, as you will see from the

 7     transcript, what you said was that you did know and that you were not

 8     there.  Why did you say that?

 9        A.   I was not there when the forces arrived.  Maybe I arrived in the

10     afternoon.  I can't remember exactly.  But what I'm sure is that I was

11     there on the date of the incident.  I'm not sure about the other days,

12     but I was there -- the dates -- the other dates, but I was there on the

13     date of the incident.  I'm sure about that.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... asking you about the date of

15     the incident.  I'm asking you about the arrival of the forces in

16     Prapaqan.

17             So now you're telling us you were not there when the forces

18     arrived.  Earlier on, just after the break, you said you didn't know

19     whether you were there or not.  What's the truth?  It's important, this.

20             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has answered that question.

21             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, he's answered it in many different ways.

22     I'd like to have a clear answer from him, a final answer.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  He has just given that answer.  It's at line 15 --

24     it starts at line 15 of page forty -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             MR. EMMERSON:  It's in conflict to the answer that he gave

Page 1268

 1     earlier on, and I wish to know which is correct.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  He has provided an explanation.  He's been put the

 3     questions several times and he has just provided an explanation of why he

 4     said what he said before and is responding to the question as he is doing

 5     so now.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Kravetz, I'm sorry, I'm going to rule you

 7     out of order because -- and, I'm afraid, the witness has been jumping

 8     from one position to another.  And I'm not quite sure what is his actual

 9     position right now.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Emmerson, I think it is important -- if all

11     this is of great importance, it is important to make the difference

12     between the question "were you there" and the day --

13             MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... I've understood that.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- of the --

15             MR. EMMERSON:  I've understood that.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- when they arrive or were you there when they

17     arrive.

18             MR. EMMERSON:  I've been very careful to make that distinction --

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

20             MR. EMMERSON:  -- in the course of the questions I've asked.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that --

22             MR. EMMERSON:  On reflection on the transcript, Your Honour will

23     see I've been very, very careful to make that distinction.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that's clear to the witness as well, please

25     proceed.

Page 1269

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 2        Q.   So the question I'm asking, once and for all, final answer

 3     please:  When the FARK forces arrived in the barracks for the first time,

 4     were you there or were you not?

 5        A.   I was not there.

 6        Q.   But as you've already told us, if the agreed evidence is right,

 7     you must have been there that day, later on at least.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On that one he said he might have arrived in the

 9     afternoon.

10             MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] ... yes, but he must

11     have been there on the 9th.

12        Q.   Correct?  You've already told us you were sure you were there on

13     the 9th.

14        A.   I told you that I can't remember the dates.  It is possible that

15     I did not arrive there the same time the forces arrived.  I might have

16     arrived there in the afternoon.  That's what I told you earlier.  I can't

17     remember.

18        Q.   You also told us that you thought you were there for two or three

19     days before the incident on the 10th.  But now you're saying you might

20     have arrived on the afternoon of the 9th.  Is that correctly understood?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think you have made your point on this.

22             MR. EMMERSON:

23        Q.   On the -- on the basis of that, it follows, Witness 77, that you

24     were certainly there within hours of the arrival of the FARK forces in

25     Prapaqan; correct?

Page 1270

 1        A.   I did not arrive there before the forces.  I never said that.

 2     The way you're putting the dates to me, I can't say anything accurate

 3     about them.  But what I remember is that I was there.

 4        Q.   Let's just put it this way to you:  You've told us that you're

 5     categorically sure that you were there at some time on the day before the

 6     incident.  And so what I'm asking you, given what we know about the date

 7     of the arrival of the FARK forces, is this:  When the FARK forces

 8     arrived, there were already KLA soldiers stationed inside the Prapaqan

 9     barracks, which were then going to be shared; correct or incorrect?

10        A.   I don't believe that.  I did not see them myself.  I never heard

11     that when they arrived there were already military forces in the

12     barracks.  If I had heard that, I would have told you.

13        Q.   Could you be mistaken about that, Witness 77, bearing in mind

14     that there is other evidence in this case concerning that?  Could you be

15     mistaken?

16        A.   I said that I never heard that when the FARK forces arrived at

17     the barracks there were other soldiers already there.  And I'm not sure

18     what answer you want from me.

19        Q.   I'm asking you again:  As you arrive, yourself, at Prapaqan, you

20     know the soldiers that came in with FARK, and I'm suggesting that since

21     you clearly arrived on the very same day, whether before or after, you

22     arrived on the very same day in Prapaqan as the FARK forces, were you not

23     aware that there was a process of integration taking place between the

24     FARK forces and the KLA forces that were already stationed there?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I think, Mr. Emmerson, the witness said, at

Page 1271

 1     page 45, lines 9:

 2             "I don't believe that.  I did not see them myself.  I never heard

 3     that when they arrived there were already military forces in the

 4     barracks.  If I had heard that, I would have told you."

 5             Now, I think he has answered that question clearly.

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  The only question I want to batten down with him

 7     is, given the number of different answer this witness has given to all of

 8     the important questions of fact so far, I want to know whether he is

 9     pinning his colours to that mast --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well --

11             MR. EMMERSON:  -- or whether he is saying he could be mistaken in

12     his recollection.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But that answer suggests that he could be.

14             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.

15        Q.   That's the 9th of July.  Then on the 10th of July there is a

16     conflict which took place.  And you've described in your evidence the

17     fact that the officers were directed to leave the Prapaqan barracks and

18     the soldiers of the FARK permitted to remain.

19             Now, do you remember, or did you know, even, why it was that the

20     officers were being directed to leave?

21        A.   I can't tell you exactly why.  The person who wanted to expel

22     them should know that.  I gave you my personal opinion.

23        Q.   So anything you've told us about that incident and its reasons

24     was a matter of your opinion, was that correct, rather than any evidence

25     that you heard?

Page 1272

 1        A.   I never heard any evidence.  I just gave you my personal opinion

 2     why that might have happened.

 3        Q.   I want --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson, I think your question was a little

 5     unfair, to say everything you've told us is a matter of opinion.  He

 6     opines only on this --

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  The reason.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  On the reason.

 9             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I'm sorry, I thought I'd made that clear.

10     Anything you've told us about that incident and its reasons.  I should

11     have said:  Anything you've told us about the reasons for that incident.

12     But I think the answer is clear.  It doesn't require further questions.

13             Does Your Honour agree, at least, in relation to that?

14        Q.   That's helpful.  So you're not in a position to contradict the

15     suggestion that there was a disagreement about the deployment of the

16     officers and that that was what lay at the heart of the conflict on the

17     10th of July?

18        A.   Which suggestion do you want me to contradict?

19        Q.   No, I don't want to you contradict anything.  I'm saying:  Given

20     that you don't know what the nature of the dispute was, you're not in a

21     position to contradict me telling you or suggesting to you that this was

22     a dispute about deployment of the officers and about their conduct inside

23     the Prapaqan barracks.  [Microphone not activated] ... you don't know

24     what it was about.  You don't know; is that right?

25        A.   I don't know the reason behind that.  I told you that I know that

Page 1273

 1     I was present when Haradinaj and his team of military police came and

 2     expelled the officers.  But I didn't say that I knew the reason.

 3        Q.   No, I'm just clarifying that you don't know the reason.

 4             See, we've heard evidence in the previous trial, agreed in this

 5     trial to be admitted from Rrustem Tetaj who was present, as you told us,

 6     on that occasion, who said:

 7             "... we were there when Ramush spoke and I spoke.  They," the

 8     officers, "left the barracks because they admitted that they were not

 9     implementing the rules there at that moment, at that time."

10             Transcript 3756, line 13, previous trial.

11             The officers were, it is suggested, directed to leave and

12     admitted that they were not implementing the rules that had been agreed.

13     You don't know whether that's right or wrong, do you?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Kravetz.

15             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, the witness has already said that he

16     does not know the reason behind that, and he can't comment on this

17     evidence.

18             MR. EMMERSON:  Well --

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  On the basis of --

20             MR. EMMERSON:  I don't think that specific suggestion has been

21     put to him thus far.

22        Q.   The question is:  Are you in a position to contradict the

23     evidence of Rrustem Tetaj, that the officers of the FARK admitted that

24     they had broken the rules and that that was the reason given for their

25     expulsion from the Prapaqan barracks?

Page 1274

 1             Are you in a position to contradict that?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated].

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It follows ipso facto, Mr. Emmerson.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, if Your Honours are content to take it at

 6     that, then I'm content to leave it there.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no interpretation.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:

 9        Q.   Give it a moment.  Can you hear me now in a language that you

10     understand, Witness?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. EMMERSON:  If Your Honours are content to accept that the

13     position is that this witness is not able to contradict that, then I'm

14     prepared to leave the matter there.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

16             MR. EMMERSON:

17        Q.   Now, that's the 10th.  But in the afternoon of the 10th, after

18     that incident occurred, you do know, don't you, that there was then a

19     meeting between Tahir Zemaj, Ramush Haradinaj, and other senior officers

20     on both sides at Lluke?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you know that that meeting, that afternoon, that very same

23     afternoon, the 10th of July --

24             MR. EMMERSON:  Which, for Your Honours's note, is minuted.

25        Q.   -- that that meeting was arranged to resolve the disagreement

Page 1275

 1     that had blown up that morning.  You know that, don't you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And at that meeting -- presumably you were not present, were you?

 4        A.   No, I wasn't.

 5        Q.   But were you told about what happened and what was agreed?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   So you had no idea after the -- the date of the 10th what had

 8     been agreed between the two commanders?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   And then did that remain the position thereafter forever, that

11     you had no idea what they'd agreed?  Or did there come a time when you

12     did become aware what had been agreed between them?

13        A.   I never knew exactly what was talked about in the meeting.  The

14     main thing was that the officers had agreed, but I don't know the

15     details.

16        Q.   Never mind the details.  What, as you understood it, had they

17     agreed to do?

18        A.   They had agreed on several things.

19        Q.   What were they?

20        A.   As far as I remember, they had divided up the territories, which

21     area would be under the Haradinaj staff and which territory would be

22     under the FARK staff, and they would not mix the two with each other.

23        Q.   You see, that last comment isn't true, I suggest.  Whether you

24     thought it or not, it's not true.  Because on the 12th of July - and the

25     Trial Chamber has this in the record - there are orders signed by

Page 1276

 1     Ramush Haradinaj, creating integrated brigades which included FARK

 2     soldiers and KLA soldiers in a single brigade.  That is the position

 3     objectively.  Are you telling me you didn't know that the brigades were

 4     being integrated?

 5        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 6        Q.   I mean, I'm just trying to understand what you were aware of,

 7     Witness 77, about the force that you say you were a part of.

 8             Which brigade were you in?

 9        A.   134rd Brigade.

10        Q.   Now, who was the commander of your brigade?

11        A.   Tahir Zemaj.

12        Q.   I'm sorry, after the formation of the brigades that were created

13     following the meeting of the 10th of July, there were three separate

14     brigades formed, which, I suggest, were integrated between KLA and FARK

15     forces.  And I'm asking you who:  Was the commander of the particular

16     brigade that you were attached to?

17        A.   The one I explained to you.

18        Q.   Very well.  Can you tell me who Shaban Dragaj was?

19        A.   He was one of the officers that entered at the same time as the

20     134rd Brigade.  I mean entered Kosovo at the same time.

21        Q.   He was part of the FARK commander group, wasn't he?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And Musa Gjakova, also one of the FARK commanders; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you not know that they were integrated into a single brigade

Page 1277

 1     on the 12th of July, together with Shemsedin Cekaj and Driton Zeneli as

 2     KLA commanders?

 3        A.   No, I didn't know that.

 4        Q.   Well, we have all the records, Witness 77.  You know who

 5     Shemsedin Cekaj was, don't you?  He was a member of the KLA forces and a

 6     subzone commander under Mr. Haradinaj.  You know that, don't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You're telling us you didn't know that as of the 12th of July he

 9     was in joint command with Shaban Dragaj of one of the brigades?

10        A.   I don't know who was integrated.

11        Q.   I'm not asking you for names.  Do you know or did you know that

12     the two forces were integrated into joint brigades?

13        A.   No, I didn't know.  I'm not aware of that.

14        Q.   Witness 77, you need to tread very carefully at this point.  Your

15     brigade was under the command of Tahir Zemaj; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And Skender Rexhahmetaj, was he connected to these joint brigades

18     at all?

19        A.   As far as I know, he was the commander in Isniq village.

20        Q.   You see, amongst the exhibits in this case is 65 ter 192, which

21     is a request by Tahir Zemaj in writing to the Dukagjini plain operative

22     staff for the appointment of certain individuals to certain posts.  Now,

23     you know who the Dukagjini plain operational staff was, don't you?

24        A.   No, I don't know.

25        Q.   I see.  Well, what I want to suggest to you, in absolutely

Page 1278

 1     unequivocal terms, Witness 77, is that the agreed, recorded, independent

 2     evidence in this case establishes that as of the 10th of July meeting at

 3     Lluke the two forces integrated into joint brigades with commanders and

 4     soldiers from both sides and then were distributed by agreement to

 5     different locations.  That is, in fact, the position.

 6             Are you saying you didn't know that?

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  The question has already been put to the witness.

 8     He has already indicated what is the extent of his knowledge and he has

 9     already indicated that he was not privy to any of the meetings where

10     these matters were discussed and has indicated what his position within

11     these forces was.

12             MR. EMMERSON:

13        Q.   But the question I'm asking is:  Can you -- how can you possibly

14     have been unaware that there was a integration taking place and that

15     Tahir Zemaj had agreed with Ramush Haradinaj to create joint brigades?

16             How can you not have known that, if you were one of the soldiers

17     in those brigades?

18        A.   I told you earlier that I was just a foot soldier.  But, to my

19     knowledge, these brigades were a continuation of Brigade 134, the brigade

20     in Baran, and the brigade commanded by Musa Gjakova in Palabardhe.

21        Q.   I'm going to read to you a line from the evidence of the FARK

22     commander in the previous trial about the formation of these brigades.

23             MR. EMMERSON:  And for Your Honours' note, Exhibits 247 and 248,

24     which I don't propose to trouble the witness with, given his account, are

25     contemporary records showing the formation of joint brigades at this time

Page 1279

 1     and in consequence of this meeting between the 10th and the 12th of July.

 2        Q.   And in relation to that, the senior FARK commander that you've

 3     told us about testified to this Tribunal that those brigades were

 4     formed -- I'm sorry, those brigades that formed were made up of FARK

 5     officers as well as the officers already inside Kosovo.

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  That's transcript T7438 [sic], line 19.

 7        Q.   Now, if you were a member of one of these brigades, and given

 8     that you'd entered Kosovo just a few -- couple of weeks before, together

 9     with the FARK officers, and given that the position was objectively and

10     factually greed to be one of integration, is there anything about you or

11     your role or functions which could possibly have insulated you from that

12     knowledge?

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, that is the same question, only put in

14     a different way, that was asked at page 53, line 2.

15             He has been asked:  How could you not have known, if you were one

16     of the soldiers of that -- those brigades?

17             MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... I'll check the -- let me

18     put --

19             MS. KRAVETZ: [Overlapping speakers] ... same question and --

20             MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... let me put the question.

21     I'll take the objection.  Let me put the question another way.

22        Q.   Is this another example, Witness 77, of you trying to mislead

23     this Tribunal to create a negative impression of the conflict between

24     FARK and the KLA?

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is a completely unfair statement to the

Page 1280

 1     witness, and it is a matter for submissions.  If my colleague wants to

 2     make submission on the credibility of the witness, that's really a matter

 3     for submissions at a later stage.  The witness has already indicated what

 4     is his knowledge on this matter.  It's --

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I'm not confined to exploring the witness's

 6     knowledge.  I'm perfectly entitled to put the suggestion to him that he's

 7     misleading the Tribunal, as he has, in our submission, throughout his

 8     evidence on a number of these points.  And he's deliberately created the

 9     impression and indeed said in terms just a few moments ago in his

10     evidence that these were separate brigades without integration, when the

11     evidence flies completely in the face of it.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just rule, please.

13             You rephrased your question, Mr. Emmerson, by saying:

14             "Is this another example, Witness 77, of you trying to mislead

15     this Tribunal to creat a negative impression of the conflict between FARK

16     and the KLA?"

17             I'll allow that question.

18             MR. EMMERSON:

19        Q.   Are you trying to mislead the Tribunal by creating a spin, a

20     misleading spin, on the evidence, Witness 77?

21        A.   No.  On the contrary.  I am saying what I know.  Because I took a

22     solemn oath, and I have to abide but that, to tell the truth and to say

23     what I know.

24        Q.   All right.  Would you agree with this proposition taken from the

25     evidence of the FARK senior commander - transcript 7642, line 23, in the

Page 1281

 1     previous trial - would you agree with this proposition: that after the

 2     12th July Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Zemaj became closer?

 3        A.   At that moment they were close.

 4        Q.   Now on the 20th of July, was there a swearing-in ceremony for the

 5     troops that had recently arrived, from under the FARK banner, held in

 6     Vranoc?

 7        A.   Can you please ask the question again?  I'm not sure I understood

 8     it.

 9        Q.   I'm suggesting to you that the newly arrived FARK soldiers,

10     together with other volunteers, were all called to a large swearing-in

11     ceremony in Vranoc on the 20th of July, which is recorded, as it happens,

12     on video-tape and available to the Tribunal.  Presumably you yourself

13     were at that swearing-in ceremony.

14        A.   Yes.  I was there.

15        Q.   Thank you for that.

16             And presiding over that swearing-in ceremony were Tahir Zemaj and

17     Mr. Haradinaj jointly, weren't they?

18        A.   I don't remember.

19        Q.   Well, they both addressed the troops, didn't they?  That was --

20     it was a very public moment when it became clear that both forces had

21     integrated.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   I told you I don't remember.  I do know that I was present, but I

23     don't remember what you are putting to me.

24        Q.   And are you saying that even then you didn't realize that the two

25     forces had integrated into joint brigades?  Even at the swearing-in

Page 1282

 1     ceremony you didn't know that?

 2        A.   I know that that was a continuation of Brigade 134 and that these

 3     two other brigades were formed in the wake of that.  This is all I know.

 4             You are asking me about what I know, not about what others have

 5     said.

 6        Q.   Yes, I'm asking you because you've told us were at the joint

 7     swearing-in ceremony, and we have a video of that ceremony available to

 8     the Tribunal.

 9             So I'm asking you to be very careful in your evidence,

10     Witness 77.  Are you saying that even by the time of that swearing-in

11     ceremony you didn't realize that the two forces had integrated into one?

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has answered that question,

13     Your Honour.

14             MR. EMMERSON:  He absolutely hasn't answered it.  The last answer

15     is non-responsive.

16        Q.   Did you or did you not know on the 20th when you attended a joint

17     swearing-in ceremony at which both forces jointly took the oath of

18     allegiance to Mr. Zemaj and Mr. Haradinaj jointly -- are you telling us

19     you still didn't know then that the two forces had already integrated?

20        A.   I told you I don't remember that Haradinaj and Zemaj were

21     present.  That's what I said.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ...

23        A.   Before you asked my this last question.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson, I know that was not your question.

25     But your question has something new in it which I just want to verify

Page 1283

 1     with you.

 2             You say this was a joint swearing-in ceremony.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So both forces came -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  [Overlapping speakers] ... forces, yes.  Into a

 6     single unified force, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Emmerson --

 9             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- I even notice in the same regard that you said

11     to the witness, you asked -- you said to the witness, line 5,

12     page 75 [sic].

13             MR. EMMERSON:  No.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You've told us you were at a joint swearing-in

15     ceremony.

16             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That is not -- that is definitely what the

18     witness told.  The went didn't say joint.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Right?

21             MR. EMMERSON:  That may be a slip of the tongue.  It is a joint

22     swearing-in ceremony.  There is no conceivable dispute on that.

23        Q.   So let me put it to you this way --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

25             Sorry.  The question is whether the witness knew or not.

Page 1284

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  Well, he's told us he didn't know

 2     Mr. Haradinaj was there.

 3        Q.   Are you telling us that by the time of that swearing-in ceremony

 4     you still did not know that these two forces had integrated into one,

 5     under the command of Mr. Haradinaj?

 6        A.   I didn't know that.

 7        Q.   You did or you did not, I'm sorry?

 8        A.   Didn't.  I didn't know.

 9        Q.   Did -- did you ever become aware much later in August that there

10     came a time when Mr. Zemaj took over from Mr. Haradinaj as commander of

11     the Dukagjini zone following the Serbian offensive in Gllogjan at the end

12     of August?  Did you know about that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So if you knew that Mr. Zemaj took over as commander from

15     Mr. Haradinaj at the end of July, is it the position that until then you

16     didn't know that Mr. Haradinaj was the commander of Tahir Zemaj?

17             Sorry, I think that there is a --

18        A.   I never knew that Haradinaj was the commander of Zemaj.

19        Q.   But at the time when you were at that swearing-in ceremony, you

20     knew, did you not, that Mr. Haradinaj was the commander of the KLA forces

21     in the Dukagjini region, into which your force had entered?  You knew

22     that at least.

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I knew.  But I also knew that never did Brigade 134,

24     to my recollection, enter under Haradinaj's command.

25        Q.   That's not what I said.  You knew that he was the commander of

Page 1285

 1     the KLA.

 2             At the swearing-in ceremony, were you all being sworn in to one

 3     force?

 4        A.   I told you earlier, that brigade was formed as a continuation of

 5     Brigade 134 with that senior commander, whose name I don't want to

 6     mention.

 7        Q.   At the swearing-in ceremony, were you all being sworn in to one

 8     force?

 9        A.   I had already taken my oath much earlier.

10        Q.   Let me put the question another way.

11             Those who were sworn in at the swearing-in ceremony, were they

12     all being sworn in to one force?

13        A.   What do you think -- what do you mean?

14        Q.   Were they all being sworn in as soldiers of the UCK?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And, to your knowledge, who was the commander of the UCK in the

17     Dukagjini plain on the 20th of July?

18        A.   Haradinaj.

19        Q.   And you still say you didn't realize they were a combined force,

20     do you?

21        A.   I told you that, to my recollection, that brigade was the

22     continuation of Brigade 134.  If you want to put something else to me and

23     if you want me to say things to please you, that's something else.  I'm

24     telling you what I know.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Emmerson.

Page 1286

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Mm-hm?

 2             JUDGE HALL:  I just want to clarify something with the witness.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE HALL:  The question and answer that appears at page 58,

 5     lines 23 and following, the question, Mr. Witness, that Mr. Emmerson

 6     asked was:  "At the swearing-in ceremony, were you all being sworn in to

 7     one force?"  And your answer was that:  "I had already taken my oath much

 8     earlier."

 9             Do I understand that to mean that you personally didn't take part

10     in this ceremony, that you were just an observer?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

12             JUDGE HALL:  What was the -- what, then, was the -- how was the

13     distinction made about -- between those who, like you, may have taken

14     their oaths earlier and were just observing, and those who were sworn in

15     on that occasion?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see any difference between

17     that swearing in and the one I experienced earlier.

18             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

19             MR. EMMERSON:

20        Q.   But it is right, isn't it, Witness 77, that those present at that

21     swearing-in ceremony who did take the oath included the soldiers who had

22     come with you into Kosovo under the FARK banner, or under the FARK

23     command?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, so that we're clear, then, before we go into private session

Page 1287

 1     to deal with the particular incident that arose, I just want to look,

 2     then, briefly with you at dates again.

 3             We know that you, the FARK forces, entered to Isniq on the

 4     30th of June, and I'm going to suggest to you, and I think you agree with

 5     that, that following the meeting on the 10th of July agreement was

 6     reached between the commanders, Mr. Zemaj and Mr. Haradinaj; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   There was agreement.

 9        Q.   So there was a period between the 30th of June and the

10     10th of July, a period of just under two weeks, when you, your forces,

11     were inside Kosovo without an agreement having been reached; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   But after the 10th of July agreement was reached.  And whether

14     they were integrated or not, the two forces were fighting side by side;

15     correct?

16        A.   I never saw them side by side.

17        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... a literal translation.  The

18     two forces were fighting in agreement with one another against a common

19     enemy.

20        A.   Maybe there was agreement, but I don't know.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... you did know.  I don't

22     understand, Witness, why you are fencing over these issues, why you are

23     being so defensive about --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction:  He said, "There was an agreement,

25     but I don't know."

Page 1288

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.  In which case I apologise for the

 2     comment.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, but what doesn't he know?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... can I

 5     say I know if I don't know something?

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I get clarification here.

 7             Sir, you say you do know that there was agreement on the

 8     10th of July?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know whether, from the 10th of July

11     onwards, FARK and KLA were fighting as allies against a common enemy?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my recollection, the territory

13     was divided into two parts, from Bistrica and Lluke, and further on it

14     was under Haradinaj's command.  From Bistrica, on this part, it was under

15     FARK's command.  This is how I know it.  I can't say something that I

16     don't know.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continued] ... that may be

18     so, sir.  But do you know whether even this division of the territory was

19     by agreement so that the two forces fight together, one covering the

20     other area -- the one area and the other covering another area, but they

21     were allies, facing a common enemy?  Do you know that as a fact?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  There was an agreement

23     about that.

24             MR. EMMERSON:  I ought to make it clear:  I'm not going to press

25     this with the witness because of the answers that he's given.  But the

Page 1289

 1     Defence case and the Prosecution case, based on the exhibits that have

 2     been adduced and called at the previous trial, is that thereafter there

 3     was an amalgamation.  But leaving that aside, on this witness's own

 4     understanding, as a very minimum, the two forces were allies fighting a

 5     common enemy.

 6        Q.   And so what I want to do, then, is to focus with you on the fact

 7     that there was a period of approximately two weeks, just under two weeks,

 8     during which the FARK forces were inside western Kosovo but where the

 9     agreement about their deployment had not been made and there was a

10     disagreement between the commanders.  That's an accurate reflection,

11     isn't it, that during that two-week period between 30th June and the

12     10th of July there was conflict between the commanders of deployment, and

13     you knew that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And it was in that context and against that background that the

16     incident took place about which we've heard evidence in private session.

17             That's right, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we now go into private session, please.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1290











11 Pages 1290-1294 redacted. Private session.















Page 1295

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  We will take a break and come

23     back at half past 12.00.

24             Court adjourned.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

Page 1296

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson -- I beg your pardon.  I'm sorry.

 3     I'm sorry, Mr. Emmerson.  Yeah, closed.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.

17             I presume, Mr. Emmerson, you'd like to revert to private session.

18             MR. EMMERSON:  After one or two questions in open session, if I

19     may.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

21             MR. EMMERSON:

22        Q.   Witness 77, you remained in Kosovo until September 1998; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And you were one of the soldiers who remained under the direct

Page 1297

 1     command of Tahir Zemaj's brigade, you've told us, is that correct, during

 2     that time?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, Tahir Zemaj's brigade engaged in a number of battles with

 5     Serb forces between the 10th of July and early September.  That's

 6     correct, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Including, notably, a distinguished victory in Lloxha?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you fight in Lloxha?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did you fight in any of the battles that took place under

13     Tahir Zemaj's command?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we turn to private session, please.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1298











11 Pages 1298-1307 redacted. Private session.















Page 1308

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:

 6        Q.   Do you remember me asking you some questions earlier on today

 7     about the swearing-in ceremony at Vranoc which you attended?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You remember you telling the Tribunal that you didn't recognise

10     Ramush Haradinaj there?

11        A.   I said I don't remember that he was there present.  This is what

12     I said.  Not that I didn't see him.

13        Q.   Very well.  Can I just play you, please, two passages of

14     video-tape from that swearing-in ceremony.  And just for your assistance

15     and for the Bench's assistance, I'm going to suggest to you afterwards

16     that the first commander we see speaking and inspecting the troops is

17     Tahir Zemaj, and I'm going to ask you to confirm whether I'm correct

18     about that or not.  And then I'm going to ask you some questions about

19     the other people who appear on the platform alongside him.

20             Two short excerpts from this piece of video-tape.  Thank you.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We don't have the script

23     for that.

24             MR. EMMERSON:  Pause for a moment.  Just pause the footage for a

25     minute.

Page 1309

 1             We don't -- the words don't matter.  We can play it without

 2     sound, if need be.  It's the people who are attending that matter.

 3             Carry on, please.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  That's the first extract.

 6             Now, pause for a moment before you play the second.

 7             Can we go into private session for a moment please.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1310

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Could we play the second extract, please.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. EMMERSON:

11        Q.   The first officer we see there speaking, that is the senior FARK

12     commander, isn't it?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. EMMERSON:  Carry on, please.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we talking about this one, this person here?

16             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, yes.

17             Carry on, please.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Pause it, please.

20        Q.   Do you know who it is who's speaking there to the -- to the

21     recruits, as the other commander in charge addressing the troops?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   That's Mr. Haradinaj, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   And who's the man standing at the end of the line of three?

Page 1311

 1        A.   Tahir Zemaj.

 2        Q.   So we've got the senior FARK commander introducing Mr. Haradinaj,

 3     who is standing on the platform, together with Tahir Zemaj, jointly

 4     addressing the troops.  Do you agree?

 5        A.   Yes, I agree.  But I didn't remember it.

 6        Q.   Very well.  We'll just see how long it went on for so that you

 7     can explain to us how you might have forgotten what, I suggest, would

 8     have been a very significant moment.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Pause there.

11        Q.   So now, just so that we're clear, I suggested to you earlier on

12     that this was a joint swearing-in ceremony in which the commanders of the

13     two forces welcomed an integrated force, and you told us that you had no

14     idea, even then, that the two forces had combined; is that right?

15        A.   I didn't know that.

16        Q.   And yet you tell us that you recognised and knew that the man on

17     the platform was the leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army in the

18     Dukagjin plain, who had, you tell us, you thought, opposed the entry of

19     the FARK forces into Kosovo; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So this must have been a very significant moment, wouldn't you

22     agree, to see the two commanders standing side by side, jointly welcoming

23     recruits into the same integrated force?  It must have been a very

24     significant moment for you, because it changed your perception of what

25     was going on, surely, if you recognised it.

Page 1312

 1        A.   I don't know how long it took, because in a video you can't

 2     reflect all the events that took place.

 3        Q.   That's not my question.  If you recognised this man as

 4     Ramush Haradinaj, a man who you say at that time you thought had opposed

 5     the entry of the FARK officers and soldiers into Kosovo, standing side by

 6     side with your revered commander, Tahir Zemaj, and jointly addressing the

 7     troops together with the senior FARK commander, you must have appreciated

 8     that something significant was taking place.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Emmerson, is this a correct summary of what

10     the witness is supposed to know?

11             MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] Yes.  Yes, it is.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Didn't he know about the agreement that was

13     reached on the 10th of July?

14             MR. EMMERSON:  He also told us unequivocally that at the time of

15     this joint swearing-in ceremony he had no idea - and he's just confirmed

16     it - that this was an integrated force.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But that's -- that's totally different.

18             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.  Let me put the question totally

19     differently then.

20        Q.   Witness 77, you must have realized that it was a significant

21     moment to see Ramush Haradinaj standing on a podium with Tahir Zemaj

22     jointly addressing the troops, mustn't you?

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, the witness has said he doesn't recall

24     Ramush Haradinaj was at this swearing-in ceremony, so I don't believe

25     this question is correctly stating the testimony of the witness so far.

Page 1313

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  Okay.  Let me put a different question.

 2        Q.   Had you ever seen the two together before, jointly addressing

 3     troops as commanders in alliance with one another?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   On reflection, do you accept that this was a significant moment

 6     to have the two of them on the same platform, jointly welcoming recruits

 7     into the KLA?

 8        A.   Yes.  I said even earlier, but I don't know how long it lasted.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... you accept that it was a

10     significant moment, to see the two of them together?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Again, Mr. Emmerson, I think the witness's

12     testimony, even before this was played, was that he doesn't remember

13     Ramush Haradinaj being there.

14             MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] I understand --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So -- so when you say --

16             MR. EMMERSON:  That's exactly the point I'm seeking to probe.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

18             MR. EMMERSON:  One -- one -- if an event of monumental

19     significance of this kind takes place, one would expect him to remember.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let --

21             MR. EMMERSON:  If his recognition is reliable.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me tell you what I'm trying to say to you.

23             And I notice you, Madam Kravetz.

24             You're saying to the witness that -- "Had you ever seen the two

25     together before, jointly addressing troops as commanders in alliance with

Page 1314

 1     one another," and he said "no."

 2             On reflection, do you accept that this was a significant moment

 3     to have the two of them on the same platform jointly welcoming recruits

 4     into the KLA.

 5             And he says, yes, I said even earlier.  But I don't know how long

 6     it lasted.

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, he means:  I don't know how long the video

 8     lasted --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  -- in relation to the entirety of the swearing-in

11     ceremony.  He's jumping to my next question, which is:  How could you

12     conceivably have forgotten?

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

14             MR. EMMERSON:

15        Q.   Let's just be clear:  You've accepted, I think, Witness 77, that

16     it was a very significant moment to have the two commanders addressing

17     the troops jointly.  Is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And however long it was that Mr. Haradinaj spoke for, are you

20     suggesting to me that the officers on the ground didn't realize that this

21     was a joint command?

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  I don't believe that's what the witness has said.

23     Maybe Mr. Emmerson -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             MR. EMMERSON:  It's a question.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's a question.  He's not being asked whether he

Page 1315

 1     said so.  He's just being asked the question.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:

 3        Q.   Let me put the question again.

 4             Are you suggesting that the officers on the ground did not

 5     realize that the commander of the Dukagjini KLA and the commander of the

 6     FARK forces were operating as a joint command?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before the witness answers - and I'm sorry to

 8     interfere - I don't think he can speak on behalf the other --

 9     [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Very well.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             MR. EMMERSON:  Did he -- let me put this question a different

13     way.

14        Q.   If you'd seen this, Witness 77, would you have realized that the

15     two commanders were now operating jointly?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   So what would you have made of it then?  Swearing soldiers into

18     the same force, under the same emblem of the KLA, with them being

19     welcomed and addressed by Tahir Zemaj, the senior FARK commander, and

20     Ramush Haradinaj, on the same platform.

21             How would you have interpreted those events?

22        A.   If you listen to their statements, they are contrary to one

23     another.  Then you can understand that there is nothing in common between

24     them.

25        Q.   Very well.  Well, I will look at some other documents, then, if

Page 1316

 1     that's your answer.  Because we can deal with the transcript of the video

 2     in due course.  But if your suggestion is that they were continuing to

 3     operate as separate forces, let's look at some documents.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  65 ter 192, please.

 5        Q.   I think you can see, can you not, that that is a request

 6     addressed to the Dukagjini plain operational staff and signed by

 7     Tahir Zemaj.  Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And so he's requesting something of somebody, isn't he?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Was there any more senior FARK officer inside Kosovo at that time

12     than Tahir Zemaj?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   And you know, don't you, that the Dukagjini plain operative staff

15     was the staff of which Ramush Haradinaj was then titular head?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   So this Mr. Zemaj requesting Mr. Haradinaj to authorise certain

18     action.  Do you agree?

19        A.   It seems like that, yes.

20        Q.   So let's look at what he's requesting:

21             "Pursuant to the 10th July 1998 agreement," that's the day of the

22     incident you've told us about in the barracks at Prapaqan, "we," that is,

23     your commander, "hereby request the appointment and job specifications of

24     military officers in the operative brigades."

25             Do you see that?

Page 1317

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And then we can see various people listed there, including

 3     Mr. Zemaj himself, asking to be appointed as the officer in charge of

 4     infantry.  Do you see that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... down a little.  He's also

 7     asking, at 8, that Shemsedin Ceku be appointed as an officer in charge of

 8     infantry; do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   You know who Shemsedin Ceku is, don't you?  He was a leader of a

11     subzone, a subzone commander of the KLA before you entered Kosovo, wasn't

12     he?

13        A.   Well, you're asking the question and answering the question

14     yourself.  But, yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   I'm asking you to agree with the proposition.

16             Number 18:  Mr. Zemaj is asking for the appointment of

17     Rrustem Tetaj.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And Skender Rexhahmetaj, who's given evidence in this trial; do

20     you see that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And Gani Gjukaj, you see him?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Those were all KLA commanders operating within the Dukagjin zone

25     before FARK entered, weren't they?

Page 1318

 1        A.   Not all of them.

 2        Q.   The names that I've just read out to you.  Shemsedin Cekaj,

 3     Driton Zeneli, Rrustem Tetaj, Skender Rexhahmetaj, and Gani Gjukaj.

 4     Those men.  They were all KLA commanders before you came in, weren't

 5     they?

 6        A.   Yes, those three or four, yes.

 7        Q.   Whereas the others, of course, were FARK officers, weren't they?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   This is a document in which Mr. Zemaj's asking Mr. Haradinaj to

10     agree the appointment of officers in a combined forces, some from FARK

11     and some from KLA, isn't it?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Kravetz.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  It is not within the scope of knowledge of this

14     witness to --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He can tell us -- [Microphone not activated]

16             MR. EMMERSON:

17        Q.   That's what this document is, isn't it?

18             Do you want me to repeat the question?

19        A.   Yes, please, if you can.

20        Q.   My question is:  This is a request from Tahir Zemaj to

21     Ramush Haradinaj to agree the appointment of officers, some from FARK and

22     some from the KLA, into a joint force, as a result of the

23     10th of July agreement.

24             Would you agree with that?

25        A.   I told you earlier that I don't agree.  Not that I don't agree

Page 1319

 1     per se, but I don't know about these facts.

 2        Q.   Well, let's ask about your own brigade, which you presumably do

 3     know about.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we look at P245, please.

 5        Q.   Do you see that document?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So it's dated the 12th of July.  And we've got only one page on

 8     the English translation.  But can you see, can't you, that in the

 9     Albanian it is signed by Mr. Haradinaj.  Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   So it's an authorisation signed by Mr. Haradinaj which reads as

12     follows.  First of all, I should say this:  It is addressed to Mr. Zemaj.

13     Do you agree with that?

14        A.   Yes, I can see that.

15        Q.   And it says:

16             "Due to the restructuring of combat formations and operative

17     means to establish the desired leadership, command ... control,

18     subordination, and the completion of war tasks, I," that is,

19     Mr. Haradinaj, "... authorise officer Tahir Zemaj to form the first

20     brigade ..."

21             Do you see that?

22        A.   Yes, I can see it now.

23        Q.   That's your brigade, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   The formation of which was authorised by Mr. Haradinaj following

Page 1320

 1     the request we've just seen from Mr. Zemaj.  Do you agree?

 2        A.   I told you earlier I'm not aware of these documents.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... about whether you were aware

 4     of them.  I'm asking about whether you agree that that's what they say,

 5     that the brigade that were yourself a part of and which you've given

 6     evidence about, and you've been called by the Prosecution to tell the

 7     Trial Chamber about FARK.

 8        A.   Interpretation, please.  I'm not receiving any.

 9        Q.   Can you hear me now in a language you understand?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You understand that you've been called by the Prosecution to give

12     evidence about relationship, in part, between FARK and the KLA.  You've

13     been asked lots of questions about that by Ms. Kravetz.

14        A.   As far as I know, only a few questions were asked of me about

15     this.  We mostly spoke about the incidents that happened than about the

16     relationships between the FARK and the KLA.

17        Q.   You repeatedly volunteered the opinion that Mr. Haradinaj was

18     obstructive and seeking to prevent the FARK from entering.  And you

19     expressed the opinion that so far as you were aware these forces remained

20     separate.  That's your testimony.  And so I'm inviting you to comment on

21     your own brigade that you've told us all about, headed by Mr. Zemaj.

22             What I'm suggesting to you is that Zemaj was appointed as

23     commander of that brigade by Mr. Haradinaj.  Do you agree or not?

24        A.   I wasn't aware of that.  I already told you so.

25        Q.   But in the light of what you've seen, do you agree that you must

Page 1321

 1     have been under a misapprehension then?

 2        A.   I did not understand your question.

 3        Q.   In the light of what these documents prove, do you accept that

 4     you were under a misapprehension about the relationship between the two

 5     forces of which you were a part?  Or one of which you were a part of.

 6        A.   There were orders from both sides, I think.  However, as I told

 7     you, I can't remember.  I don't remember whether there was agreement for

 8     the formation of these brigades.

 9             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we look at P242, please.  P242.  Another of

10     the brigades.  This one dated the 11th of July, signed by Mr. Haradinaj,

11     and authorising Shemsedin Cekaj to form the 2nd Brigade.

12             So we're now dealing with the 2nd Brigade.  And the 2nd Brigade

13     contained FARK soldiers and officers, didn't it?

14        A.   I'm not aware of that.  I don't know these documents.

15        Q.   I'm not asking you about documents now, Witness 77.  You know

16     that the 2nd Brigade, which included soldiers and officers who'd come

17     into Kosovo with you under the FARK authority, you knew that the

18     2nd Brigade that was formed, the time that you were part of the

19     1st Brigade, was a brigade that included FARK officers and soldiers,

20     weren't you?

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has answered the question.  He said

22     that he was not aware of that.  That's at line 22 of page 93.

23             MR. EMMERSON:  He said:  I don't know these documents.

24        Q.   I'm asking you: Did you know that the 2nd Brigade contained FARK

25     soldiers an officers?

Page 1322

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm sorry to interrupt again, but the first part of

 2     that answer says "I'm not aware" --

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  Let's clarify what the witness meant.

 4        Q.   Did you say -- did you know that the 2nd Brigade contained FARK

 5     soldiers and officers or not?

 6        A.   This the first time I hear this.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we then, please, look at P248, because this is

 9     the formation of the 2nd Brigade's personnel.

10        Q.   Because you've told us a little bit about some of these people

11     already.

12             MR. EMMERSON:  P248, please.

13        Q.   Again, dated the 12th of July and following on from the

14     10th of July meeting.  And you can see at paragraph 2 that Mr. Haradinaj

15     has appointed Shemsedin Cekaj as commander.  Do you see that?

16        A.   Yes, I see it.

17        Q.   And who are the first two names on the list as Chief of Staff and

18     commander of the 1st Battalion?

19             Shaban Dragaj and Musa Gjakova; do you see those names?

20        A.   Yes, I see.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continued] ... about those two men, and you

22     told us you knew that they were part of the FARK officer corps; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So does it follow that you knew that two of the FARK officer

25     corps were from the 12th of July under the command of Shemsedin Cekaj, a

Page 1323

 1     KLA commander?

 2        A.   I am not aware of that.  I know that Musa Gjakova was commander

 3     of 133rd Brigade in Palabardhe.

 4        Q.   Do you know who Driton Zeneli is, the third name on the list?

 5        A.   No.  This is the first time I've heard this name.

 6        Q.   But you'd accept from me, would you, that what this document

 7     shows is that the two senior FARK officers who you were fully aware of,

 8     because you told us this morning you knew that they were FARK officers,

 9     were, according to this document, under the command of Shemsedin Cekaj,

10     from the 12th of July?  Would you agree with that?

11        A.   I don't know about that.  I can't say.

12        Q.   Who was their commander then, please, these two senior officers

13     that you say you know, Shaban Dragaj and Musa Gjakova?  Who did you

14     understand to be their commander; and which brigade did you understand

15     them to be a part of, yours or another one?

16        A.   I can see Shaban Dragaj and Musa Gjakova.  Musa Gjakova was an

17     appointed -- a commander appointed by Tahir Zemaj in the Palabardhe area,

18     while Ramabaja was commander of the 131st Brigade.

19        Q.   So if the position is that these documents -- and you've seen

20     one -- a request signed by your own commander, Tahir Zemaj, requesting

21     this allocation or this series of allocations.  If these documents

22     properly reflect what they say, then you would agree, wouldn't you, that

23     the two forces were amalgamated from the 12th of July onwards under a

24     joint command?

25        A.   I am not aware of that.  I don't know.  I can't say I agree with

Page 1324

 1     something I don't know.

 2        Q.   And right -- that remained the position right up to the moment

 3     when, on the 20th of July, you yourself saw them jointly on a platform

 4     receiving recruits into a joint force, did it?

 5             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't recall the witness saying that

 6     he saw them jointly on a platform receiving recruits.

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm sorry.  We've just looked at a video-tape of

 8     an incident, an event, at which this witness was present, in which both

 9     Mr. Zemaj and Mr. Haradinaj took an oath of allegiance from the troops on

10     the 20th of July at Vranoc, in which the witness says he was present.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has said -- the question is framed with

12     the date of "... 20th of July, you yourself saw some them jointly," and

13     the witness has indicated that he does not recall Mr. Haradinaj being at

14     that -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think you're -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR. EMMERSON: [Overlapping speakers] ... that you were present,

17     yes --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Emmerson.  You're going to make a

19     distinction between what the witness saw now on the -- on the video and

20     what he told us he saw on the 20th of July.

21             MR. EMMERSON:

22        Q.   Essentially, Witness 77, you would have the Tribunal believe that

23     all of this amalgamation simply passed you by and you knew nothing about

24     it, wouldn't you?

25        A.   I think these things you're showing to me here are illogical.  I

Page 1325

 1     was not aware of them.

 2             With regard to the swearing-in ceremony, it is possible that

 3     another officer and myself arrived there later.

 4        Q.   I see.

 5        A.   What I'm trying to say, that it was not possible for me to see

 6     those commanders, the senior commanders, there earlier.  That's why I

 7     repeated over and over again that I can't remember them -- him being

 8     there.

 9        Q.   So in order to reconcile your testimony, we have to understand it

10     this way:  That on the 9th of July you arrived at Prapaqan late, just

11     after the forces had arrived, because that's the only way to reconcile

12     your testimony, and on the 20th of July you arrived at the swearing-in

13     ceremony, you managed to catch enough of it to see the swearing-in but

14     didn't see the speeches that we've just seen; is that right?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Kravetz.

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  That is not a correct statement of the witness

17     evidence.  What he just said was that it was -- that it is possible that

18     he arrived -- I'm looking for the exact passage -- he arrived late.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

20             MR. EMMERSON:

21        Q.   Your testimony, as I understand it, is that you didn't see the

22     speeches - is that right or not? - at the Vranoc swearing in.

23        A.   Had I seen them, I would have said so.  But I didn't.

24        Q.   So you must have missed the speeches at Vranoc and arrived at

25     Prapaqan on the 9th of July, just in time to miss the arrival of the

Page 1326

 1     forces.  That's the effect of your testimony, isn't it.

 2        A.   At the moment, we're speaking about Baran.  I did not watch the

 3     speeches.  I did not see Haradinaj or Zemaj holding any speeches there.

 4     This is what I know and what I'm saying.

 5        Q.   What were you doing there then?  I thought you'd come to watch

 6     the swearing-in ceremony.

 7        A.   I was just escorting an officer to Baran.  Because he was not

 8     from that area and he did not know the way to Baran, so he asked me to

 9     escort him up to Baran, and I did.

10        Q.   In answer to a question from Judge Hall, you said that you

11     were -- having been sworn in yourself on an earlier occasion, you were

12     there to watch.  Did you have to take that officer there in time for him

13     to be sworn in?

14        A.   No.  He said he had been invited but he didn't know where the

15     place was, so I helped him.

16        Q.   And did you arrive late, then, you and this officer who you were

17     taking?

18        A.   I did not see the speeches.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you want me to say that I saw

21     them when I didn't, that's a different matter.  I'm saying I did not see

22     the speeches.  Whether I was late or not, I can't precisely tell you.

23     What I can tell you is that I was not there for the speeches.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Would that be a convenient moment?

25             MR. EMMERSON:  It would, Your Honour.

Page 1327

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 2                           [Closed session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are in open session.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

19             Court adjourned until tomorrow, 9.00 in the morning.

20             Court adjourned.

21                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, 28th day of

23                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.