Page 1590
1 Tuesday, 1 November 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom.
7 Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
12 Could we have the appearances for the day, please, starting with
13 the Prosecution.
14 MR. ROGERS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Paul Rogers for the
15 Prosecution, together with Ms. Priya Gopalan, Ms. Daniela Kravetz, and
16 our Case Manager today, Ms. Line Pedersen.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
18 And for the Defence of Mr. Haradinaj.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Ben Emmerson for Ramush Haradinaj, together with
20 Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and Andrew Strong.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
22 For Mr. Balaj.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Mr. Balaj, with
24 Colleen Rohan, Chad Mair, and Gentian Zyberi.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
Page 1591
1 And for Mr. Brahimaj.
2 MR. HARVEY: Richard Harvey for Mr. Brahimaj. With me,
3 Mr. Paul Troop, Mr. Luke Boenisch, and Ms. Rudina Jasini. Thank you,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harvey.
6 May the Chamber please move into private -- closed session.
7 [Closed session]
8 (redacted)
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
Page 1592
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 Mr. Rogers.
3 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
4 Examination by Mr. Rogers: [Continued]
5 Q. Witness, you were telling us yesterday, as we closed, that you
6 were -- after the incident in Gllogjan, you went back to the village of
7 Jabllanice; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I think we'll need to have a short
10 moment in private session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
12 [Private session]
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
15 you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
17 Yes, Mr. Rogers.
18 MR. ROGERS:
19 Q. Witness, I just want to ask you a little bit more about the
20 compound where you were detained and beaten.
21 When you first entered that compound, did you see any other
22 persons than Mr. Brahimaj who was walking in front of you, as I
23 understand your evidence? Did you see anybody else immediately as you
24 entered the compound?
25 A. When I entered the yard, I saw people in uniform, but I didn't
Page 1598
1 recognise any of them. I didn't pay any attention, to tell you the
2 truth.
3 Q. Approximately how many people in uniform did you see?
4 A. Four or five.
5 Q. And at the entrance to the compound, were there any persons there
6 in uniform?
7 A. There were two at the door. Three or four of them were in the
8 yard in front of the house where I went together with Lahi.
9 When I went into the house, I didn't see anyone.
10 Q. And are you able to help now with whether those individuals that
11 you saw were armed?
12 A. Yes, yes. The ones at the gate were armed. The other ones in
13 the yard, I'm not sure whether I saw -- whether they were armed or not.
14 Q. What was your understanding, if any, about who was in charge at
15 that place where you were detained?
16 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you repeat it, please.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... all right, let me put it
18 more simply. Do you know who was in charge at the place or did you know
19 at the time who was in charge at the place where you were detained?
20 A. As far as I'm concerned, I think Lahi Brahimaj was in charge.
21 Maybe there was somebody else. But, in my case, he was the one who dealt
22 with me.
23 Q. It may be obvious from your last answer, but let's be clear.
24 What was it that made you think that Lahi was in charge?
25 A. Because he was mentioned a lot, most of the time. I don't think
Page 1599
1 there was anyone else. And we knew that he was the one who organised the
2 defence of the village, the youth to join the UCK, the KLA. Maybe he
3 wasn't the one, but that's what we thought. I never was there for such a
4 long time to know who was the main person there. Had I been a soldier, I
5 would have known probably that -- who was the person who was responsible.
6 Q. Can I just ask you how you knew that he was the one who organised
7 the defence of the village?
8 A. It was Lahi who gave the order to my co-villagers to go back to
9 the village, our village.
10 Q. Thank you. And what about the village of Jabllanice? You were
11 there for quite some time periodically. What was your understanding
12 about the organisation of the defence of that village?
13 A. Jabllanice was not as well organised as we thought. It was at
14 the same level of organisation as the other villages around. I don't
15 think they had done anything extra. However, people spoke about the
16 staff in Jabllanice, and that was it. But there was nothing special
17 about it, I think.
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, could we just briefly go back into
19 private session, please.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
21 [Private session]
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13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session. Thank
15 you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
17 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
18 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, by joint agreement, I'm to go first for
19 the Defence.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: By all means, you take the floor.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Just for clarification of transcript, we are in
22 open session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Registrar.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
25 Q. Witness, my name is Richard Harvey, and I represent
Page 1602
1 Lahi Brahimaj.
2 I am not going to be asking you many questions about the claims
3 that you have made of specific things that you say Lahi Brahimaj did to
4 you or that he caused others to do to you.
5 Do you understand? I'm not going to be asking you much about
6 that.
7 I am going to be saying this to you, witness, and I want you to
8 understand where my questions are coming from: One, that you have
9 exaggerated what actually happened to you; and you have made false
10 accusations against Lahi Brahimaj.
11 You understand what I'm going to put to you?
12 A. I understand. But I have not made any false statements. I'm
13 telling here the truth of everything that happened to me. This is
14 something that happened to me. I didn't here it from anybody else. This
15 is what really happened. And my body suffers to this day from what
16 happened at the time.
17 Q. I will also be putting to you that you have deliberately blamed
18 Lahi Brahimaj because he caused you serious public embarrassment in your
19 village and among your co-villagers when he accused you of stealing and
20 selling a Kalashnikov.
21 You understand what I'm putting to you now?
22 A. I never stole it or sold it. I couldn't do that. If I had
23 stolen or sold it, I could have done that easily. It was just a simple
24 gun.
25 Q. We'll come to that.
Page 1603
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15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... may -- may I
16 interrupt you.
17 May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private Session]
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Page 1608
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
6 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
7 Q. I just asked you whether, on the last occasion, you said on two
8 separate occasions to the Trial Chamber that it was one or two weeks
9 before the 19th of May that the men -- the KLA men from Jabllanice came
10 to your village. And you say, No, it was one or two days before the
11 19th of May.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I hate to interrupt Mr. --
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY: Yes.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Isn't that asked an answered?
16 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, it was asked an answered in private
17 session, and I thought it would better be to put it on the public record.
18 That was my reason for doing it again.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Okay. Okay.
20 MR. HARVEY: I don't want to be tedious.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise in disrupting Mr. Harvey and the
22 questioning as far as he sees them right now. But looking at the last
23 question, I'm a bit confused because we have "the last occasion." I
24 don't believe there's any prohibition to us mentioning the prior trial
25 proceedings here. Or because we have, in the question: "... last
Page 1609
1 occasion, you said on two separate occasions ..." so it becomes a bit
2 cumbersome in terms of understanding precisely what proceeding we're
3 talking about and what the witness testified to at that prior proceeding.
4 And I just ask for some clarification from Mr. Harvey in regards
5 to the language that he's using here. Because if we have too many
6 occasions, I think the record is going to start getting somewhat
7 confused. Independent of the -- any of the concerns that Judge Delvoie
8 has, and I share Mr. Harvey's position with regard to that.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey.
10 MR. HARVEY: Occasionally I don't ask questions in the most
11 artful fashion. I will ask the question a little more helpfully for the
12 record.
13 Q. You testified here once before, didn't you, sir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when you testified before, you twice told the Trial Chamber
16 then that the KLA had first shown itself in your village one or two weeks
17 before the 19th of May, didn't you?
18 A. I don't recall to have said that.
19 Q. I have read to you from the transcript. Nobody has taken
20 exception to what I have read to you from the transcript. Do you say the
21 transcript is wrong or that maybe you were mistaken?
22 A. I'm just saying that I don't recall that I have said that. But
23 even if I did say that, now I'm saying it's wrong. This didn't happen
24 two, three weeks ago -- two, three weeks before the 19th of May, but only
25 two, three days before that date.
Page 1610
1 In addition to that, in my village it was not possible to do
2 that, to hold a rally to that effect, because we had a mixed population.
3 Q. Were you present when the KLA first showed itself in your
4 village?
5 A. Yes. That day, I was present. Yes, I was.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey, in light of a previous answer given by
7 this witness, I'm not quite sure whether that's an absolutely fair
8 question. Previously he just said a few minutes ago, They might have
9 been there a year, but I saw them on such and such a day. So to say,
10 Were you present when they first came? I think would be a little unfair.
11 You would have to say, When did you first see them in your village?
12 MR. HARVEY:
13 Q. Again, going back to the last occasion - I'm looking at the
14 bottom of page 7897, the last time you testified - you told the
15 Trial Chamber that rumours had it that it was Lahi, Lahi Brahimaj, "but
16 not having been present myself, I cannot say."
17 Well, were you present when Lahi Brahimaj came to your village
18 just before the 19th of May?
19 (redacted)
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9 (redacted) participated in the war. Usually there have been two or three
10 members --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm sorry -- I'm sorry to
12 interrupt, witness, but if you could concentrate on the question and give
13 a straightforward answer to it, I think that will make matters easier for
14 all of us.
15 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, before he does, can we go into private
16 session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
18 [Private session]
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18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
21 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
22 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 Q. Before your village came under attack, there were attacks on
24 Kpuz; yes? Yes or no?
25 A. Yes.
Page 1616
1 Q. There was an attack on Boksiq, was there not?
2 A. No. No. From Kpuz, the attack continued against our village,
3 not on Boksiq.
4 Q. Was Boksiq ever attacked?
5 A. Boksiq was attacked after the 21st of May.
6 Q. And they attacked Kpuz two or three days before they attacked
7 your village, didn't they?
8 A. Yes. Yes, I think. As far as I remember.
9 Q. And that was when, was it, that your -- that family member asked
10 you if you would assist in the defence of your village?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And he told you that the KLA definitely existed; and you were
13 pleased to learn that, weren't you?
14 A. Yes, of course.
15 Q. There were ten to 14 weapons available to your co-villagers just
16 before the Serb attack, weren't there?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Where did those weapons come from?
19 A. I don't know. Either my co-villagers had them or they were
20 brought from Jabllanice or some other village. I don't know where they
21 came from. But most of the villages did have weapons.
22 Q. Where did you get your weapon from when the attack began?
23 A. Not before the attack began but after the attack began, they left
24 and dropped the weapon that Lahi accused me belonged to Vesel. He left
25 and gave -- left the weapon there, so I took the weapon and used it until
Page 1617
1 we ran out of munition. But before, I didn't have any weapon. I was
2 waiting there either to help out someone who was wounded or if someone
3 was wounded, to take his weapon and try to resist where I was positioned.
4 (redacted)
5 Rukovina, and we others, we other villagers.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry, Mr. Harvey. Names are being thrown around
7 here. I'm not quite sure -- although he's not standing up, I keep seeing
8 Mr. Rogers also shaking his head, but I seem to suspect his concern is
9 the same as I have.
10 MR. HARVEY: And one that I share.
11 Q. Witness, again, I simply asked you the question: Where did you
12 get your weapon from when the attack began? And you gave us a very
13 extensive answer about all kinds of people and different places where you
14 were.
15 Witness, please, wait until I've asked you a question. Please.
16 Now, the question -- excuse me, witness --
17 A. Yes, yes, but --
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... excuse me, witness, I have
19 not asked you a question yet. Please wait until you are asked a
20 question.
21 A. [In English] Okay.
22 Q. When the attack began, you're saying you had no weapon, on the
23 19th of May; is that correct?
24 A. [Interpretation] Correct.
25 Q. You're saying that you were in point number 2; correct?
Page 1618
1 A. Yes. Point number 2. That's where I was.
2 (redacted)
3 that correct?
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's the point, that name.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I don't think there should be a problem
7 with that. He died in the course of that attack. And I don't think it's
8 going to lead to the identification of any person.
9 If Mr. Rogers has a concern, I'm sure we'll all listen to it, but
10 I don't see that it's a matter in dispute or of concern.
11 MR. ROGERS: Perhaps we could just have a brief moment in private
12 session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session]
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10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
13 Would that be a convenient moment, Mr. Harvey?
14 MR. HARVEY: Yes, it would, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We'll take a break and come back at 4.00. I beg
16 your pardon. Before we do so, may we go into private -- closed session.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 [Closed session]
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3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
5 you.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 We'll take a break and come back at 4.00.
8 Court adjourned.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.00 p.m.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
12 [Closed session]
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22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
25 Yes, now, Mr. Harvey, you do your best now.
Page 1627
1 MR. HARVEY: And may we move into private session, please,
2 Mr. Registrar.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
4 Mr. Registrar.
5 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
23 We'll take a break and come back at quarter to 6.00.
24 Court adjourned.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.
Page 1660
1 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
3 [Closed session]
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11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
14 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
15 MR. HARVEY: May we have 3D250108 back on the screen. Thank you.
16 And for the moment I've asked that it be shown only in Albanian, and
17 the -- could we go into private session, please.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 But why do you want Albanian only? We also want to follow what
20 you're going to discuss.
21 MR. HARVEY: We've been having some technical difficulties doing
22 both. I don't know whether the Registrar -- sorry.
23 [Private session]
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3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
4 MR. EMMERSON: And can I indicate, as a matter of courtesy, that
5 I've -- we have notified the Prosecution of certain documents that we
6 would potentially ask this witness some questions about but they're all
7 documents that were on the Prosecution's original 65 ter list. So
8 although the notifications weren't given timeously, I think there's no
9 difficulty. And I see Mr. Rogers nodding. But I'm -- given past
10 practice, I'm raising the issue with the Chamber just to let you know.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
12 Q. Witness 3, I'm going to ask you some questions on behalf of
13 Ramush Haradinaj. They'll be relatively short, and I very much hope that
14 we'll finish by the end of today. Or at least I shall certainly finish
15 by the end of today.
16 And I want to focus on that one occasion at the end of July 1998
17 when you've told us that you were taken to Gllogjan.
18 First of all, can I just get the time-frame clear. The ordeal
19 that you've been describing, that's to say, the issues and treatment that
20 you've been giving evidence about in relation to Lahi Brahimaj, that --
21 that took place across, I think, a two-week period, is that right, from
22 about the 13th of July to the end of July?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. But --
25 A. I am not very sure, but I think.
Page 1670
1 Q. I think -- I think I'm right in saying that you gave us the
2 13th of July as the date for the first incident, that's to say, when you
3 were taken to Jabllanice, and you've described the treatment there and
4 your escape from Jabllanice. And I think you said it was about ten to
5 12 days later when the second incident or sequence of incidents took
6 place, ending with you in Gllogjan.
7 Does that sound right to you?
8 A. Yes, yes. After I escaped from Gllogjan -- I was released from
9 Gllogjan. I didn't have any problem. Nobody threatened me or anything.
10 Q. Nobody threatened you or anything when you were in Gllogjan or
11 after you were released? What did you mean by that answer?
12 A. When I was released from Gllogjan, when I came to Jabllanice
13 after some days, only Dukagjini and all these villages were the target of
14 Serb attacks. So nobody gave any thoughts to -- to me, to other people's
15 businesses. Because everybody had its own problems - how to escape, and
16 where to find shelter, and so on.
17 From there, I went to Resuje village. I stayed some days there.
18 Q. Just pause, if you will, because I'll guide you through with the
19 questions that I'm asking. But I'm not, at the moment, asking you for
20 all the details of where you went and what happened afterwards.
21 Can I just ask you this. Sorry, before I do, I should just refer
22 back, please, to page 77, line 13. On the transcript you're recorded as
23 saying: "After I escaped from Gllogjan -- I was released from Gllogjan."
24 Just so that we're clear so there'd be no misunderstanding: You were
25 released, weren't you? You didn't escape from Gllogjan.
Page 1671
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think line 13 says so.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: "When I was released from Gllogjan ... and all
5 these villages were the target of Serb attacks. So nobody gave any
6 thoughts to -- to me."
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm simply clarifying the position for the
8 transcript, because there's certainly some potential ambiguity.
9 Q. Essentially, Witness 3, the position is that after your encounter
10 with the man you believe to be Ramush Haradinaj in Gllogjan, after that
11 you never had any trouble again, did you, with Lahi Brahimaj?
12 A. I didn't have any contacts with Lahi Brahimaj, ever, until after
13 the war. I was afraid, of course, that something similar might happen to
14 me again. But I never ran into him during the war.
15 Q. Again, it may that be that we're saying the same thing, but after
16 your encounter with Mr. Haradinaj, nobody came to bother you ever again,
17 did they?
18 A. No. No.
19 Q. Can we then go, please, to that night at the end of July - the
20 date doesn't matter particularly - when you've told us in your evidence
21 that Lahi Brahimaj took you to Gllogjan. And you've described a sequence
22 of events that happened while you were there. I just want to make sure
23 I've got the order correct and the locations correct.
24 First of all, you told us that you were taken initially into a
25 staff building and up some stairs; is that right?
Page 1672
1 A. Yes. There was a two-storey building.
2 Q. And you've given evidence already that a man with blond hair in
3 uniform abused you in one of those rooms; is that right? Physically
4 abused you.
5 A. Yes, he was blond.
6 Q. You don't, I think, know the identity of the person who inflicted
7 that unacceptable treatment on you, do you?
8 A. I didn't know him from before. Even if I look at him now, I
9 wouldn't be able to recognise him. Because, can you imagine? I was in
10 the boot of the car for some time and then the boot of the car opened,
11 and, for a few minutes, can you see anything after that?
12 Q. You don't know his identity. Am I right in thinking you don't
13 know his rank either? There was nothing to indicate what rank, if any,
14 he held?
15 A. No, no. I don't know that person. I don't know what he was. I
16 only know that he was wearing a uniform. He took me upstairs.
17 Q. And until the two younger males came into the room, which you've
18 told us about, until then, you were alone with that man; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So prior to the entry of those two younger males there was nobody
21 in authority over the person with blond hair, directing him what to do or
22 not to do, as far as you could see; is that right?
23 A. No, there wasn't. When Lahi took me there, that person then took
24 me upstairs. He beat me. Later on, the two other soldiers in black
25 uniforms came in and they asked me, Why are you here? I said I don't
Page 1673
1 know why --
2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... pause, because I'm going to
3 ask you in detail about each of the events that takes place after that.
4 You gave evidence that two younger men in black uniforms entered
5 the room; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And I think at one time or another you thought that at least one
8 of them was Mr. Haradinaj's younger brother; is that correct?
9 A. That's what I thought. But I don't know whether it's correct or
10 not because I didn't know him. I don't know him to this day.
11 Q. That's very fair. But once those two younger men came into the
12 room, the ill-treatment of you stopped; is that right?
13 A. Yes. For the time they were there, the blond man came back to
14 beat me, and they didn't allow him.
15 Q. I'm going to ask you about that, just so that we have the
16 sequence correct. They came into the room, and the violence stopped when
17 they came into the room. Is that correctly understood?
18 A. The violence had stopped before they came into the room. The
19 blond man beat me. He went outside. And then the two men in black
20 uniform came and asked me the questions, Where are you from? What are
21 have you done? What have they accused you of? And I said I don't
22 know --
23 Q. Pause. Pause for a moment.
24 So they asked you these questions, what you were accused of and
25 how you'd got there. Was it obvious to you that those two young men
Page 1674
1 didn't know how you had come to be in Gllogjan? Is that the way it
2 appeared?
3 A. Yes, of course, it was like that. Because if they knew, they
4 wouldn't have asked me questions, who brought you here, where have you
5 come from.
6 Q. And I think they asked you whether you had any cigarettes on you
7 to smoke; is that right?
8 A. They asked me, Do you smoke? I said, Yes, I do, but they're in
9 the boot of the car. They brought cigarettes to me.
10 Q. So at that stage one of them at least left the room and returned
11 with a packet of cigarettes to give to you and a lighter; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And you mentioned that the blond man came back into the room. Is
14 it right that one of the two younger man in black uniforms then made it
15 completely clear to this person that he wasn't to touch you at all?
16 A. Yes, that's true. He told him, Don't touch this person anymore.
17 Why he did that, I don't know.
18 As I told you, he asked me, What are you accused of? I said, I
19 don't know. And when the blond man came back to beat me again, he said,
20 Don't beat him. Don't do anything to him.
21 And then they took me to another room.
22 Q. Pause, because we'll come to the other room in a moment.
23 Do you remember whether they asked you your name?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But, certainly, is it fair to say that the two younger men who
Page 1675
1 came into the room seemed to be keen to make sure that you were treated
2 properly?
3 A. Can you repeat the question, please. I don't think I understood
4 it.
5 Q. Would you agree with me that the two young men in black uniforms
6 who came into the room were keen to make sure that you were treated
7 properly?
8 A. Yes. They respected me. Maybe even more than I deserved.
9 Because I was taken there as a traitor. But they respected me. They
10 asked me my name, What have you done? But respectfully.
11 Q. So even though you had been taken there falsely, you say falsely
12 accused of being a traitor, you were treated humanely and respectfully
13 but those two young men in authority; is that right?
14 A. The wish of my life is to meet those two young men and thank them
15 for treating me humanely. But I haven't met them after that occasion.
16 That was a matter of hours that I stayed with them, and I was in a bad
17 shape. I was awaiting my execution at any moment. That's what I thought
18 at the time. I wasn't expecting something good to come out of it.
19 Q. And I'm sure everybody understands your testimony about your own
20 fears at that point. But what I want to look at is what actually
21 happened to you.
22 So the two young men then showed you into another room. So we're
23 now in a second room. Is that also on the upper floor?
24 A. On the same floor. But this was a bigger room, about five metres
25 long.
Page 1676
1 Q. And that's where you met the man that you believed to be
2 Ramush Haradinaj, the commander, in that room; is that correct?
3 A. That's what I believe. I think it was him, Ramush. They took me
4 to the room, and he suggested to me not to stay near the window because
5 there would be shelling.
6 Q. Just pause there for a moment because I want to get the order of
7 what was said to you completely clear.
8 First of all, was he in the room already when you entered the
9 room, or did he come into the room after you entered it?
10 A. The two young men showed me to the room. I went into the room.
11 And then he came, the person that I believe was Mr. Haradinaj, and he
12 asked me --
13 Q. Pause there, because I'm going to deal with what he asked you in
14 a moment. So you were brought into the room and then he came into the
15 room. Before we look at the detail, would you generally agree with me
16 that, as with the two young men in black uniforms, Mr. Haradinaj treated
17 you fairly and courteously throughout?
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, can I just confirm that it's
19 accepted - so that we're all clear - that the individual that came into
20 the room that the witness believed to be Ramush Haradinaj was in fact
21 Ramush Haradinaj.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not testifying here --
23 MR. ROGERS: [Overlapping speakers] ... answer was being
24 suggested.
25 MR. EMMERSON: -- I'm asking the witness questions.
Page 1677
1 MR. ROGERS: It just that the questions supposes that the
2 individual is that individual, and I just wondered whether that's what my
3 learned friend meant or whether it was a slip of the tongue.
4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm using the witness's own designation which he
5 used in evidence in-chief.
6 Q. So when I refer to Ramush Haradinaj, I'm referring to the man
7 that you've described as the commander who you believed to be
8 Ramush Haradinaj. We'll look, a little later on, at what the basis for
9 your belief is.
10 But would you agree with me -- if I can return to the question,
11 witness, would you agree with me that throughout your dealings with that
12 man, the man you believed to Mr. Haradinaj, you were treated fairly and
13 courteously by him?
14 A. Yes, that's correct. He asked me whether I had any --
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... don't move on to what he
16 actually asked you just yet. I'm just asking you to agree with that
17 proposition.
18 And you said earlier you thought that the two young men in black
19 uniforms had treated you better than you would have expected anybody to
20 treat you, given the allegations that had been made.
21 Would you agree that the man you believed to be Mr. Haradinaj,
22 throughout your time in Gllogjan, treated you with respect and dignity?
23 A. Yes. At the moment I entered the room, I was in stress. But
24 when I saw that the men in black uniform were there with me, I felt a bit
25 more hopeful, that I was going to be alive. The two young men gave me
Page 1678
1 cigarettes. They didn't let the other men beat me again. And then I
2 became -- to become -- I became hopeful, that I would live.
3 Q. So if we can just -- I know there are a number of things that
4 were said to you by the Mr. -- by the man that you described as
5 Mr. Haradinaj. I just want to make sure I've got the order, as far as
6 you can help us, the order correct.
7 So, first of all, is it right that he asked you who had brought
8 you there and what it was that you were accused of? Is that a question
9 that he asked you as well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So was it obvious to you as well that he didn't know who'd
12 brought you there or what it was you were accused of?
13 A. I believe that he was not aware. Because it was a matter of
14 time. When Mr. Lahi Brahimaj took me from the shop, there was no time to
15 discuss with other people. I'm not sure, but I believe that he was not
16 aware.
17 Q. And did you tell him that you were accused by Mr. Brahimaj of
18 some form of treason? Did you tell the man you believed to be
19 Mr. Haradinaj that that's what the accusation was, or what did you say?
20 A. He asked me my name, where I was from, Who brought you here, and
21 for what? I told him my name, surname, the name of my village. He
22 asked, Why are you here? And I answered that there was a question of an
23 automatic rifle. I was accused. He asked me whether I knew someone
24 where I could sleep in Gllogjan --
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... pause there.
Page 1679
1 A. -- and I said I didn't.
2 Q. Pause there, because we'll come on to the issue of where you were
3 going to sleep in a moment or two.
4 You've just told us he asked you your name and where you were
5 from and who brought you there and for what.
6 And you say you told him your name, your surname, the name of
7 your village. And he asked, Why are you here? "And I answered ... there
8 was a question of an automatic rifle."
9 Now, pausing there, did you tell him that you had been brought
10 there by Lahi Brahimaj?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. How did he respond when you told him that?
13 A. He made this noise "shh." It seemed incomprehensible to him, I
14 think.
15 Q. What was the noise? Can you describe it for the record?
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's described on the record "shh."
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Like this: "Pwow." He was, I
18 think, angry, why these things happened, why these bad things happened.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. Angry towards whom, did you think?
21 A. Of course, that Lahi had taken me there.
22 Q. I want to read, if I may, to you a passage from a statement that
23 you made to the Prosecutor in August 2007.
24 MR. EMMERSON: And it's, for Mr. Rogers's note, para 72.
25 Q. I'm just going to put this passage to you. This is your
Page 1680
1 statement. And I'll just read it slowly so it can be translated for you.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Para 2?
3 MR. EMMERSON: 72.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 72.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. You say: "Ramush Haradinaj also asked me who had brought me
7 there and when I said it was Lahi Brahimaj, he just sighed. I got the
8 impression he was irritated by the fact of my being taken there by
9 Lahi Brahimaj."
10 Was it a sigh? Is that the best way to describe the reaction
11 from this person you believed to be Mr. Haradinaj?
12 A. I described it to you, how -- what I took it to mean. That he
13 was angry. And that's why he made that noise.
14 Q. I just want to be as accurate as I possibly can with you,
15 Witness 3. I'm not -- I'm not -- I appreciate it's a lot of detail to be
16 asking you about.
17 When you gave evidence in this case on a prior occasion, and this
18 is transcript 7966, lines 8 and 9, you testified that after you had
19 explained who brought you there, the man you believed to Mr. Haradinaj
20 made a sigh and nodded.
21 Do you remember that, a gesture with his head as well?
22 A. Yes. I told you, I think.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
24 A. That's what happened, yes.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'm not sure you did tell
Page 1681
1 us. And it's perfectly understandable that you will have your memory
2 refreshed on certain details. But you accept that he did that.
3 And then did he immediately leave the room after that?
4 A. No. After he asked the questions, he showed me into the room and
5 he suggested that I not sleep near the window.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... pause -- pausing there.
7 So he showed you into another room now. Is this a third room or
8 is it back into the first room?
9 A. No. I was in a small room. The young men in black uniform took
10 me to a bigger room, which was a bedroom, I think, because there were
11 some mattresses.
12 Q. Just -- just so that we're clear: You started off in one room
13 when you first went into the staff. Then you told us you were taken by
14 the two young men in black uniform into a second room, where you had the
15 conversation you've just described with the man you believed to be
16 Mr. Haradinaj. Then were you taken into a third room?
17 A. No, no. The same room, the second room.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's helpful. Thank you.
19 Once he'd established how you got there, did this man you
20 believed to be Mr. Haradinaj then ask you whether you had somewhere else
21 in Gllogjan that you wanted to and would be able to stay that night?
22 A. Yes, he did.
23 Q. So it must have been clear to you, then, from that point onwards
24 that if you had had friends or family in the village, you were free to
25 go; is that right?
Page 1682
1 A. That's correct. That's what he said to me, Do you know anyone
2 here so that you can go spend the night with them? I said, No. And he
3 said, I will take you myself to your family in the morning, or find
4 someone to take you there.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
6 A. I told him where my in-laws lived and relatives lived.
7 Q. Pause there. That's very helpful so far as clarification is
8 concerned.
9 So when you told him you had no one else to stay with in the
10 village, he said to you that the following morning he would either
11 personally drive you himself back to your family or make arrangements for
12 somebody else to do it?
13 A. Not to my family house, but to my relatives' or in-laws'. That's
14 what happened, yes.
15 Q. And at that point, the understanding between the two of you was
16 that you would be spending the night in Gllogjan and being driven home by
17 either Mr. Haradinaj, as you thought it was, or one of his men, in the
18 morning? An overnight stay. Correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And he offered you to stay in the staff if you wanted to ;
21 correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And he even gave you some guidance about your own safety, that
24 you shouldn't sleep next to the window in case you'd be killed by a
25 Serbian shell; is that correct?
Page 1683
1 A. Correct. That's right.
2 Q. And can I just ask you about the question of food, because you've
3 mentioned an offer of food, and I just want to check if I've got it
4 correctly understood.
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 Is that -- is that a correct statement of what happened?
13 A. That's a correct statement. He brought me to eat. I didn't feel
14 hungry, but he said, You must eat something.
15 I remember it was a kind of soup. A potato soup. And I ate. He
16 said, You must eat. And I did eat.
17 Q. So just to list one or two points about this period of time,
18 then --
19 MR. ROGERS: Sorry, I don't want to interrupt Mr. Emmerson
20 particularly. Could we just briefly go into private session.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 1684
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Page 1685
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10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session. Thank you.
Page 1686
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. So, witness, based on the evidence that you've already given, I'm
5 just going to put some short propositions to you and invite you to agree
6 with them, without necessarily a lengthy elaboration.
7 First of all, you understood that you were being given a bed for
8 the night where you could stay voluntarily, if you chose to do so;
9 correct?
10 A. Correct. That's true.
11 Q. You'd been reassured that you would be kept safe and taken home
12 in the morning to your relatives; correct?
13 A. According to those two young men who prevented the blond guy from
14 beating me, I started to feel a little bit reassured.
15 Q. And you'd been given food and cigarettes and a relatively safe
16 place to sleep the night.
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Now, there came a point later in the evening when you were called
19 to go downstairs to see the commander; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And, so, having expected that you would be sleeping the whole
22 night there, I think you've said before it was sometime around 11.00 you
23 got a call to come downstairs; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Now, you told Mr. Rogers yesterday, perhaps, understandably, in
Page 1687
1 the context of the testimony you've given, that you were scared when you
2 were called downstairs, but when you got there, the man that you believed
3 to be Mr. Haradinaj said to you, Forget about what has happened. Go home
4 to your family and forget about everything. You are free.
5 Is that right?
6 A. That's right. This is what he told me. I, of course, had I
7 known before why he had called me downstairs, I wouldn't be afraid. But
8 before going there, I was afraid. But when I went downstairs, he told
9 me, You can go to your family. Don't have anything to do with this. You
10 are free.
11 Q. And I think he advised you to stay away from the KLA generally;
12 is that right?
13 A. He said, Stay away. Stay away from what happened. Return to
14 your family.
15 Q. And can I ask you this, witness. Did you understand what was
16 being said to you to mean this: that you would be safely now returned to
17 your family and that nothing bad would happen to you again?
18 Is that what you understood this man you thought Mr. Haradinaj to
19 be saying to you?
20 A. Yes. When he said these words and when I saw the people who had
21 come to fetch me, I knew that no harm would ever come to me from this
22 person. And, in fact, I've never been afraid of Mr. Haradinaj. I didn't
23 know him. He didn't know me. And I don't -- I am not afraid even now.
24 Q. But if that was what he was promising you, that no harm would
25 come to you again, that is exactly what happened, isn't it, Witness 3?
Page 1688
1 No harm did come to you again after that.
2 A. That's correct. No harm came to me. No threats. I didn't have
3 any contacts with them.
4 Q. Would it be fair to say that once you had come to the attention
5 of Mr. Haradinaj, from that point onwards you were safe?
6 A. Yes. Yes, this is what did happen, in fact. I never had any
7 problems.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour just give me a moment.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith, do you have any questions for the witness?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Based on the questions asked by all the parties
14 thus far and the answers given by this witness, we have no questions.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 Mr. Rogers, do you have any re-examination?
17 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, yes I do.
18 I apologise to Mr. Guy-Smith for jumping up, thinking he didn't
19 have any questions.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: You were absolutely correct.
21 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, I do, and I won't be able to conclude
22 them in ten minutes.
23 So may we rise, please, for today, and conclude this witness
24 tomorrow?
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.
Page 1689
1 Mr. Witness, just to warn you once again, and I know you know
2 this, but it is my duty to remind you every time, that you are still on
3 the witness-stand; you may not talk to anyone about this case until you
4 are finally excused from further testifying.
5 Is that okay? Is that understood?
6 Thank you so much.
7 May the Chamber please move into closed session.
8 [Closed session]
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 We stand adjourned to tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the
23 afternoon, same courtroom.
24 Court adjourned.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.,
Page 1690
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of
2 November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.
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