Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1907

 1                           Tuesday, 22 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and

10     Lahi Brahimaj.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we have appearances for the day, please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honour.  For the Prosecution

15     Daniela Kravetz, together with Aditya Menon, Andrej Micovic, and our case

16     manager Line Pedersen.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             And for Mr. Haradinaj.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Ben Emmerson for

20     Ramush Haradinaj, together with Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and

21     Andrew Strong.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.

23             For Mr. Balaj.

24             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honours, Gregor Guy-Smith,

25     together with Colleen Rohan, Chad Mair, Holly Buchanan, Gentian Zyberi,


Page 1908

 1     and our intern William Fife [overlapping speakers] Mr. Balaj.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 3             And for Mr. Brahimaj.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Richard Harvey for

 5     Mr. Brahimaj, assisted by Mr. Paul Troop and Mr. Luke Boenisch.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Harvey.

 7             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 8                           [Closed session]

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11   (redacted)

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             Good morning, sir.  How are you -- how do you feel today?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm all right.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You feel okay?  If you don't feel well, please do

20     indicate to us so that we can do something.  Okay.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't hesitate to mention it when you don't feel

23     well.

24             Madam Kravetz.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 1909

 1                           WITNESS:  81 [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Examination by Ms. Kravetz: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   Sir, yesterday when we left off we were talking about your first

 7     visit to the village of Jabllanice, and specifically we were talking

 8     about when a Serb young boy -- man and two Roma boys were taken out of

 9     the house that you visited to a yard.  Do you remember we were talking

10     about that?

11        A.   Yes, I remember.

12        Q.   Sir, when the Serb young man and the two Roma boys were taken out

13     to the yard, who was present in the yard?

14        A.   I was there, my comrade who was with me, Maxhup, Idriz Gashi, and

15     another, a villager of theirs.

16        Q.   And where in the yard were these three young men taken to?

17        A.   Right outside the door of the house.  They were a metre and a

18     half or 2 metres away from that door.

19        Q.   Would this be in the front of the house, the back of the house,

20     or where exactly were they?

21        A.   In front of the house.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the Prosecutor move

23     closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  Sorry about that.

25        Q.   Sir, what happened to these three young men when they were taken


Page 1910

 1     out to the yard?

 2        A.   After 10 or 15 minutes, roughly, when we were all outside

 3     already, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj appeared, who was the main commander of the

 4     Dukagjini Zone at the time and Toger came too.  Ramush wasn't really

 5     well, and that was the first occasion when I met him as commander.

 6        Q.   Had you met him before that occasion?  I'm speaking about

 7     Ramush Haradinaj.

 8        A.   Yes.  I was born in Germany, lived in Switzerland, and the

 9     gentleman also worked in Switzerland as a -- as a seasonal worker, and

10     that's where I first met him but not as a commander but as a seasonal

11     worker as all the rest of us.

12        Q.   And when you say "the gentleman," just so we're clear, who are

13     you referring to?

14        A.   Ramush Haradinaj.

15        Q.   And how much time before this occasion, when you saw him in

16     Jabllanice, had you met this man, Ramush Haradinaj?

17        A.   Two years more or less.

18        Q.   And other than having met him when both of you worked as seasonal

19     workers, had you had any other encounter with him prior to this

20     meeting --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I interrupt you, madam?

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 1911

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14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             You may proceed, Madam Kravetz.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Sir, I had asked you, other than having met Mr. Haradinaj when

20     both of you worked as seasonal workers, had you had any other opportunity

21     to meet him prior to seeing him in Jabllanice?  And, sir, can I just ask

22     you to please wait until I turn off my microphone before you respond just

23     because -- so the protective measures that are in place are effective.  I

24     see that you often try to respond immediately while I'm asking the

25     question.  So I'll just ask you to wait.  Okay.  Thank you.


Page 1912

 1        A.   I met him in a cafe.  There's an Albanian cafe in Switzerland,

 2     and that's a meeting-place for the workers there.  And I met him there

 3     once.

 4        Q.   You told us that you saw him arrive in this compound where you

 5     were in Jabllanice.  What happened when he arrived?

 6        A.   As far as I remember - and I'm saying that because it's been a

 7     long time - when he arrived we all had to salute him because he had a

 8     higher rank.  After that, again to the best of my recollection, he called

 9     Maxhup "Teqe" and that's an expression of respect and they greeted each

10     other.  And then the interrogation began.

11        Q.   May I stop you there before we move on to that.  You also

12     referred to a person known as Toger.  Do you know that person's name?

13        A.   Idriz Balaj.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just at that point, Madam Prosecutor, I also have

15     something to clear.

16             Sir, you indicated that when these two young Roma men were taken

17     out into the yard, the people present there were yourself and your

18     comrade and then Maxhup and Idriz Gashi and a villager.  What I want to

19     find out from you is where -- at that time where were the six people that

20     you came with that you arrived with into this village?  Because you -- so

21     far you arrived into this house and you have now not told us anything

22     about them.  Where were they at that time?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were around that house.  They

24     spoke to the villagers, and we were all there in one place.  But they

25     were not right next to me or next to them, but they were around.

Page 1913

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Judge, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  They also saw what was happening there?  They were

 4     part of the group.  They may not have stood next to you but they were --

 5     were they part of the group?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sure.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course they saw because they

 9     were all present.  We weren't next to each other, but we were all in the

10     same yard.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it's correct to say that in addition to the

14     people that you mentioned as present when these young men were taken out

15     into the yard, we should also add those companions of yours that arrived

16     with you in the village, six of them?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course because they were with

18     me.  They had arrived with me and we were all in that yard.  As I have

19     just said, we were not right next to each other, but we were all in the

20     yard.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you about who was next to you.  I'm

22     asking you about what was present there, and the reason I'm asking you

23     about these people is because you didn't mention them as present, sir.

24     Okay?  You can't tell me that everybody else that you have mentioned was

25     right next to you, can you?  Was Maxhup right next to you?

Page 1914

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was near me.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And was the villager next to you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we were there together.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, let me explain because I

 6     see -- we were all in the same yard, in the same yard, and I'm talking

 7     about a diameter of 3 to 4 metres, but not shoulder-to-shoulder.  We were

 8     all near each other.  Maxhup was near me, then my companion was also next

 9     to me and the others were standing around.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And where were the six?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that's what I'm explaining.

12     They were standing there, standing around --

13             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ...

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I've just one more question to clarify.

15             Mr. Witness, you mentioned I think two times "my comrade," who

16     was with you.  Is that one of the six people or is that somebody else?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of the six.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  May I proceed, Your Honour?

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may, ma'am, I had said so.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Sir, you -- I asked you who -- if you knew the name of the person

23     that you referred to as Toger and you have said it was Idriz Balaj.  Had

24     you met Mr. Idriz Balaj before this occasion, when you saw him in

25     Jabllanice at this compound?

Page 1915

 1        A.   No, that was the first time.

 2        Q.   And how were you able to identify this person?  How did you know

 3     who it was?

 4        A.   Well, when you go to meet somebody, they will introduce

 5     themselves as your hosts, and we were wearing the same uniforms.  And it

 6     is normal for them to say who they were.

 7        Q.   And what did Idriz Balaj say when he introduced himself to you?

 8        A.   That his name was Idriz and that his nickname was Toger and that

 9     he was commander of a special unit.

10        Q.   Did he mention which unit he was a commander of?

11        A.   The special unit.

12        Q.   Do you know which unit that was?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  It was the Tigers.  At that time they were mostly in

14     the Dukagjini Zone.

15        Q.   And how do you know this was the name of the unit?

16        A.   Any soldier who was there knew which unit was which and what it

17     was called.

18        Q.   So you've told us that Ramush Haradinaj arrived and that the

19     soldiers there saluted him.  What happened after he and Mr. Toger or

20     Idriz Balaj arrived in this compound?

21        A.   As usual, people greeted each other.  And when he saw the

22     two gypsies, he started to interrogate them, which is usual.  He was

23     asking them about where the Serb forces were, where the check-points

24     were, and the like.

25        Q.   When you say "when he saw the two gypsies he started to

Page 1916

 1     interrogate them," whom are you referring to?

 2        A.   To Ramush Haradinaj, because it is a known fact that

 3     Ramush Haradinaj never liked the Roma.  Even in Switzerland, in that cafe

 4     that I mentioned, he was known for that dislike of his, because they

 5     called him "Bace" in Albanian and entreated him not to kill them because

 6     they hadn't done anything, and he was probably irritated by that and he

 7     replied:  "What do you mean 'Bace'?  Tell me where the Serb troops are

 8     and where the check-points are."

 9        Q.   What does Bace mean?

10        A.   Bace means a man who you hold in esteem, who is a bit older, and

11     whom you respect, and that's the meaning of that word.

12        Q.   And when you say "they called him Bace," whom are you referring

13     to by "they"?

14        A.   I'm referring to the two Roma.

15        Q.   And whom were they calling "Bace"?

16        A.   Ramush Haradinaj.

17        Q.   Just to go back a little bit, you told us that it was a known

18     fact that Ramush Haradinaj never liked Roma -- the Roma.  Where did you

19     hear this or from whom did you hear this?

20        A.   It was something that one could hear.  Ramush Haradinaj respected

21     everybody and a close relative of mine, I needn't mention his name, was a

22     member of his unit.  And the two of us talked and the relative told me

23     that he hates the Roma's guts.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

25     sentence.


Page 1917

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:

 2        Q.   Could you please repeat that.  The interpreter missed your answer

 3     or part of your answer, sir.

 4        A.   I said that one relative of mine, a close relative, was a member

 5     of his unit.  And since you asked me how I knew that he hated Roma, I

 6     explained to you that in the conversation between me and my relative, he

 7     told me that his commander hated the Roma, let alone the Serbs.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  I wonder if we could go into private session,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

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11 Page 1918 redacted. Private session.















Page 1919

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Madam Kravetz.

 9             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Sir, you told us that when Mr. Haradinaj saw the two gypsies, he

11     started to interrogate them.  Was anyone else -- did anyone else

12     participate in this interrogation or was he the only one questioning the

13     two Roma?

14        A.   There was Toger and there was Maxhup.

15        Q.   What was Toger doing in this -- at the time?

16        A.   Toger, because we were from two units, one from one zone and

17     another from the other zone, and so he wanted to prove his value, he said

18     at one point, "This is what you do to spies and enemies."  He took a

19     knife and cut his ear, just to show me that he was stronger than I or

20     something of that kind, or that he was faithful to that special unit as a

21     commander.  He took a knife and cut the ear of one of the Roma.

22        Q.   And what did Mr. -- the person you referred to as Maxhup,

23     Mr. Brahimaj, do during this interrogation?

24        A.   During the interrogation, Maxhup was also beating them up, as

25     they were not willing to speak.  He had this - how should I explain this


Page 1920

 1     to you? - a baseball bat.

 2        Q.   What was he -- what was Maxhup, or Lahi Brahimaj, doing with a

 3     baseball bat?

 4        A.   He was hitting with the baseball bat, in order to extract as much

 5     information from them as possible.

 6        Q.   And whom was he hitting?

 7        A.   One of the Roma and the Serb.

 8        Q.   Where -- we'll start first with the Serb boy.  Where was he

 9     hitting the boy, the Serb boy?

10        A.   All over his body.

11        Q.   Was he the only one hitting the boy or did anyone else take part

12     in this?

13        A.   You have rushed these questions and I wanted to relate this to

14     you in more detail.  I apologise.  Well, before the interrogation

15     started, at the point when I said that Ramush Haradinaj was asking them

16     questions, on two or three occasions -- or he actually hit the man two or

17     three times and he fell to the ground and they lifted him.

18        Q.   When you say "he hit the man," which man are you referring to?

19        A.   I'm speaking about the Serb.

20        Q.   So just so we're clear, we're speaking about the Serbian boy.

21     Are you saying that Ramush Haradinaj questioned this Serbian boy?

22        A.   Yes.  As I did say, when he came - and I'll say the same thing

23     again - when he arrived, the Roma started pleading with him, addressing

24     him in that deferent way, and then he started asking them, "Well, where

25     are your forces?  Where are your tanks now?"  And hit them once or twice.

Page 1921

 1        Q.   When you say he hit them, are you referring to the Roma or the

 2     Serb boy or -- I'm just trying to understand, sir.

 3        A.   No, as I said a moment ago, I'm speaking about the Serb now.  He

 4     asked the Serb, "Where are your Serbian forces, your tanks, your

 5     check-points?"  So he hit him.

 6        Q.   Did he also put those questions to the Romas, the two Roma boys?

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  Very, very important, given the vacillation in

 8     this account, that Ms. Kravetz not ask a leading question of that kind

 9     and that's an extraordinarily direct leading question in circumstances

10     where the witness's account is not coming out in a direct and coherent

11     manner and one which I would not only object to but strongly object to.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have any response to that, Madam Kravetz?

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  I don't think it's a leading question.  I'm just

14     trying to clarify the account.  But we can start again and just have the

15     witness tell us --

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Objection overruled.

17             You may proceed.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:

19        Q.   Sir, I would like for you to tell what happened very clearly and

20     we can take it point by point just so the Judges understand what you saw

21     happening.  Okay?  So you say that you saw Mr. Ramush Haradinaj arrive in

22     the compound.  Can you tell us once again what happened after he and

23     Mr. Balaj arrived in the compound?  And I'm sorry, you may have to repeat

24     yourself, but it's simply so we have it clear in the record.

25        A.   I will tell you what I saw and how I saw it, the entire event.

Page 1922

 1     As I said, initially we got out, my comrade and I, and the rest were

 2     already out in the yard, including the prisoners, the two Roma and the

 3     Serb.  Half an hour later perhaps, Ramush Haradinaj arrived with Toger.

 4     We said hello.  Next started the interrogation.  Where are your Serb

 5     forces, check-points, spies?  The Roma started pleading with him, as I

 6     said, they were saying, "Don't kill us."  He put one or two questions to

 7     the Serb, "Where are your check-points?"  He was quite annoyed.  The boy

 8     was so scared that he was unable to speak and he was tearful, and I felt

 9     that he hit him more out of the annoyance with him because he wouldn't

10     speak.

11        Q.   When you say "he hit him," whom did he hit?  And I'm just going

12     to ask you -- just a second.  Ask you tell your story just so it's clear,

13     just to explain each time whether you're speaking about the Serbian boy

14     or young man or one of the Roma, just so we understand.  Okay?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you also mention with what he hit him?

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Yes, I was going to get to that.

17        Q.   And also explain with what he hit him and who was doing the

18     hitting, just so we understand.  Okay?  So you can explain that.

19        A.   As I said, Ramush Haradinaj asked the young Serb about where his

20     forces were, their tanks, and such-like.  The Serb was probably

21     frightened, and that was the reason why he didn't answer these questions.

22     And as I said, he punched him with his fist a couple of times.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now it's clear.  What happened after Ramush Haradinaj

24     punched the Serb boy a couple of times?

25        A.   As I've already said and will repeat, in order to prove his worth

Page 1923

 1     to me - and I'm speaking about Toger, because he was in one special unit

 2     and I was in the other - I suppose it was because he wanted to prove his

 3     worth, and the Roma were asking to be forgiven and were pleading for

 4     their lives.  At one point, Toger took out his knife and cut the ear of

 5     one of the Roma.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And what happened after Toger did this, after he cut the

 7     ear of one of the Roma?

 8        A.   As this was happening, his uniform was all blooded over, and as I

 9     said, Maxhup hit one and the other with the baseball bat.  Since he cut

10     him - I recall this very vividly, I was a young soldier in the KLA - I

11     was very fearful at that point, I didn't know what was going to happen,

12     and Toger told me, "This is the way you treat the enemy and the spies."

13     As he cut his ear, he stabbed him in his upper body a couple of times and

14     the man fell to the ground.

15        Q.   You've told us about the Serb boy and one of the Roma.  What --

16     did anything happen to the other Roma boy who was out there in the yard?

17        A.   I did tell you about him as well.  I don't know if you understood

18     this correctly.  Maxhup beat him with the baseball bat.

19        Q.   And how many times did Maxhup beat this other Roma boy with the

20     baseball bat?

21        A.   Several times -- well, it's been 13 years.  I really can't recall

22     all the details and the number of times he was hit.  A couple of times.

23     Can I have a break, please, if possible?

24             MS. KRAVETZ:  That's fine with me.  I know the witness has been

25     feeling unwell, so that's fine with me.


Page 1924

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             Madam Registrar, may the Chamber please move into closed session.

 3                           [Closed session]

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             We'll take a break until we hear from the Registrar whether the

24     witness is ready to resume.

25             Court adjourned.

Page 1928

 1                           --- Break taken at 9.49 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.07 a.m.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we ask for a closed session, I just

 4     wanted to mention to the parties that the Chamber has just received this

 5     writing from VWS, which confirms that only VWS staff was with the witness

 6     during the break and nobody else.

 7             And may the Chamber please move into closed session.  If the

 8     parties want to have a look at this, they can have a look at it.

 9                           [Closed session]

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 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

16             When the blinds are up, you may stand up, Madam Kravetz.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Kravetz, I have one clarification question.

19     At line 17 -- at page 17, sorry, line 6 and 7, the witness answered that:

20             "As I said, Maxhup hit one and the other with a baseball bat."

21     We're talking about the Roma boys.  And then at lines 17 and 18 you

22     asked:

23             "How many times did Maxhup beat this other Roma boy with a

24     baseball bat?"

25             Now, I'm not very clear about whether we're talking about one and


Page 1930

 1     the other or about one.  Could you clarify that, please.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  I had seen that, Your Honour.  I was going to go

 3     there.

 4             Is it okay if I ask that --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Of course, of course.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  -- I'm just going to back up a little bit in this

 7     account.

 8        Q.   Sir, before we speak about the beating of the two Roma, I just

 9     want to go back to the young Serb.  You've told us that Ramush Haradinaj

10     punched him with his fist a couple of times.  Did anyone else of the

11     persons that were involved in this interrogation beat or hit this young

12     Serb?

13        A.   As I've said, it was Ramush Haradinaj.  You asked me how it all

14     started, and I said that it was Ramush Haradinaj who hit the Serb a

15     couple of times with his fist.

16        Q.   I'm asking you if anyone else of those who were present do

17     anything to the Serb boy, other than Ramush Haradinaj.  You've already

18     told us about Ramush Haradinaj.

19        A.   Yes.  Of course the others took part in the beatings as well.

20     I've explained clearly that it was Ramush who started it all, giving him

21     blows with his fist, and then followed Toger.  And then I clearly

22     explained that Maxhup killed -- I mean hit one -- hit the Roma with the

23     baseball bat.  And I'm -- so when I said "the Roma," I didn't think that

24     I needed to be more precise than that.  I meant both of them.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me, sir, can I -- I'm sorry.  Please try to

Page 1931

 1     listen to the questions and try to answer the question that is put to

 2     you.  You are jumping about from the Serb to the Roma.  You are being

 3     asked about the Serb.  You told the Court that Ramush Haradinaj hit the

 4     Serb a couple of times with his fists.  The question that is being put to

 5     you is:  With respect to the Serb, apart from Ramush Haradinaj, was there

 6     anybody else who hit the Serb boy?  We're not talking about the Roma.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that Ramush started it and

 8     the others took part --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah, we have heard that.  Yeah.  When you say

10     "and the others took part," you are not answering the question that is

11     being put to you.  The question that is being put to you is whether

12     anybody else hit the Serb boy?  Now, instead of saying "somebody took

13     part," you've got to say X did what or nobody did anything else to this

14     person.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for not being clear.

16     Following in Ramush Haradinaj's footsteps, the others got involved in the

17     mistreatments.  When I say "others," I mean Toger, Maxhup, Idriz Gashi,

18     and others who were present there.  That's what I meant.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry I can't get the answer for you,

20     Madam Kravetz.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Can I ask the question again just to follow-up from

22     that answer?

23        Q.   You say, "Following in Ramush Haradinaj's footsteps, the others

24     got involved in the mistreatments."

25             In the mistreatment of whom?  I'm asking specifically about the

Page 1932

 1     Serb boy, if anyone else was involved in the mistreatment of the Serb

 2     boy.  Can you help us with that?

 3        A.   I said that after Ramush Haradinaj hit him, punched him a couple

 4     of times, he drew nearer to me.  I suppose he found it demeaning to be

 5     hitting someone.  And then to prove themselves to us, Toger joined,

 6     Maxhup did with the baseball bat.  So the same sort of mistreatment was

 7     accorded to the Serb and then it continued with the Roma.

 8        Q.   And just -- can you just clarify when you say "the same sort of

 9     mistreatment," what are you speaking about?  Just try to explain it as

10     best as you can.

11        A.   Beatings.  They continued beating him and interrogating him about

12     the whereabouts of the Serb army and their check-point.

13        Q.   Who continued beating the Serb boy?

14        A.   Toger, as I said.  It wasn't the case of, you know, you take your

15     turn at beating him and then I'll take mine.  They hit him all at once.

16     It wasn't like they were making breaks in between.

17        Q.   And when you say Toger -- I asked who continued beating him, you

18     said Toger.  What exactly did Toger do to the Serb boy?

19        A.   Toger beat him.  When I said "beat him," I meant punched him.

20        Q.   Where, in what part of his body did he punch him?

21        A.   All over his body.

22        Q.   And approximately how many times did he punch the Serb boy?

23        A.   A couple of times.  I didn't keep count.  Several times.

24        Q.   Did any one of those present, other than Haradinaj and Toger,

25     beat the Serb boy?


Page 1933

 1        A.   Idriz Gashi did.

 2        Q.   What did Idriz Gashi do to the Serb boy?

 3        A.   He dealt him blows with his fists, as did all the others.

 4             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, can -- I understand Your Honour wanted

 5     to have a break.  I don't know if I should just continue or if we're

 6     having the break now.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It would be preferable to have a break now.

 8             MS. KRAVETZ:  That's fine.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

10             May the Chamber please move into closed session.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.  Court adjourned.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

Page 1934

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 2                           [Closed session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, Madam Kravetz.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Sir, I want to go back to the incident we were discussing before

15     the break, and I just want to let you know the reason I'm going back to

16     it is simply to clarify or make very clear for the Judges what you saw at

17     the time when this incident took place.  So I just have some more

18     questions in relation to that.  You've told us -- we're going back to the

19     Serb boy.  You've told us that you saw Toger beat him and you said "when

20     I say 'beat him,' I meant punch him."

21             Did Toger do anything else to the Serb boy other than punch him?

22        A.   I said that he punched him a couple of times.

23        Q.   Yes.  I'm asking if in addition to punching him a couple of

24     times --

25             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Objection.  Leading.  Asked and answered now for


Page 1935

 1     about the fourth time.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Kravetz.

 3             MS. KRAVETZ:  I'm just trying to clarify the answer of the

 4     witness on this point.  He -- he simply -- I'm just simply trying to

 5     clarify and his answer was non-responsive.  He didn't actually respond to

 6     the question.  My question was whether in addition to punching him had he

 7     done anything else, and he said he punched him a couple of times.  So I'm

 8     just trying to clarify did anything else happen and the witness can just

 9     say whether it did or it did not.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             Objection overruled.

12             MS. KRAVETZ:

13        Q.   So, sir, just to go back to my question -- and I know this may

14     seem that we are going back over and over and a bit repetitive for you

15     but it's simply so we're clear on this.  I asked you whether Toger, apart

16     from punching the boy, did he do anything else to the boy?  And you can

17     simply respond yes or no.

18        A.   Yes, he did do something else.

19        Q.   Can you describe what it was that he did?

20        A.   Here's what he did, the same thing that happened to the -- to one

21     of the Roma, and he did it to the Serb as well.

22        Q.   Can you be a bit more clear on that, what exactly you're

23     referring to when you say "the same thing that happened to one of the

24     Roma."

25        A.   He did the same thing with his knife.

Page 1936

 1        Q.   And what was that?  I know this may be difficult.  I'm just

 2     trying to get you to explain to the Judges what it is that you saw him do

 3     with his knife.  So just take your time.

 4        A.   He also took his knife and cut his ear and stabbed him in the

 5     front part of his body a couple of times.

 6        Q.   And when you say he cut his ear, can you describe exactly the

 7     extent of the injury that he inflicted on the Serb boy, that Toger

 8     inflicted on the boy?

 9        A.   There were injuries because he cut his ear off, and how many

10     times he stabbed him I don't know, five times, six times.  I was a

11     freshman and I was a bit scared.  I didn't keep count of the stabs, but

12     he was injured pretty bad so he couldn't stand anymore.

13        Q.   You told us earlier when I asked you if anyone other than Toger

14     and Haradinaj had beat the Serb boy and you told us Idriz Gashi did and

15     you said "Idriz Gashi dealt him blows with his fists, as did all the

16     others."

17             Can you just clarify when you say "all the others," who else you

18     were referring to, who else beat the Serb boy?

19        A.   I told you that Maxhup and the local soldiers who were there, a

20     couple of them, also took part because, as I told you before the break,

21     it -- they weren't taking shifts in the beating.

22        Q.   What did Maxhup do to the Serb boy?

23        A.   Maxhup beat him with a baseball bat the same way he had beaten

24     the Roma, and he beat him as long as he could -- he beat him until he

25     couldn't stand anymore and fell on the ground.

Page 1937

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now I want to go back to an answer you gave earlier.  This

 2     is on page 17, where you were referring to Maxhup and you said that

 3     "Maxhup had hit one and the other with the baseball bat."  You've told us

 4     about what Maxhup did to the Serb boy.  I just want to clarify when you

 5     say "one and the other with the baseball bat," who else you are referring

 6     to, just so we're clear.

 7        A.   The Roma, they were there, the three of them.  He didn't mind

 8     whom he would hit first.  He beat one and then the other and then the

 9     third, and the third one being the Serb.

10        Q.   And just so we're clear, when you say "he beat them," with what

11     did he beat the two Romas?

12        A.   I told you, with a baseball bat.

13        Q.   For how long did this beating of the three young men take --

14     last?

15        A.   It went for half an hour, maybe 45 minutes, because they couldn't

16     stand being beaten anymore.  They were lying on the ground.  They

17     couldn't stand.

18        Q.   And did you or any of the soldiers who had travelled with you to

19     Jabllanice participate in this beating?

20        A.   No.  We weren't there to beat people.  We were like guests.  We

21     were there to help out, to provide escort, because they weren't -- there

22     weren't many of them.  And we didn't take part.  This was all new to both

23     me and a couple of my comrades, and we were a bit fearful.

24        Q.   Do you know a name -- a man by the name of Nazmi Brahimaj?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 1938

 1        Q.   And who is he?  Who was he?

 2        A.   He is Maxhup's brother.

 3        Q.   And how do you know this person?

 4        A.   I saw him while he -- while we were there.

 5        Q.   And just could you be more precise, when you say while you were

 6     there, where exactly did you see him and --

 7        A.   At Jabllanice, in that house.  While we were there, we had the

 8     opportunity to meet him.

 9        Q.   And when was that, that you met him at that house in Jabllanice?

10        A.   When we arrived on that evening and rested and maybe before

11     Maxhup arrived, some ten minutes prior to his arrival, he introduced

12     himself as the commander, the village commander.

13        Q.   Did you see -- you've told us you met him when you first arrived

14     there in the house.  Did you see him at any other time while you were

15     there, at that house, during this first visit to Jabllanice?

16        A.   After that I may have seen him once more in that yard, if I

17     remember well.

18        Q.   Was he in the yard when this beating and interrogation of the

19     three young men was taking place?

20        A.   He was in the yard, but I cannot say that he took part because he

21     didn't.

22        Q.   Sir, when I asked you about what Toger did to the Serb boy, you

23     told me that he had taken out a knife and cut his ear and stabbed him in

24     the chest.  After doing that, did Toger do anything else to the Serb boy?

25        A.   I apologise, but it's been a long time and I cannot remember

Page 1939

 1     everything.  It's been 13 years, so I cannot recall.

 2        Q.   That's fine, sir.  I understand.

 3             What happened after the beating stopped, what happened to the

 4     Serb boy and the two Roma boys?

 5        A.   After being beaten and falling on the ground, Ramush Haradinaj

 6     said, "Take them to Adem Bace in Drenica," and I can explain the meaning

 7     of that sentence.  I was -- I had been in training and they taught us

 8     what that means.  When somebody says, "Take them to Adem Bace in

 9     Drenica," it means:  Kill them.

10        Q.   You've -- I think I've asked you this before but just so we're

11     clear, what does the word "Bace" mean?  When you say "Adem Bace," what

12     does the word "Bace" mean?

13        A.   Bace is a man who is held in high esteem by everybody and is of

14     advanced age, and you refer to such a man as Bace.  It means a highly

15     respected man.

16        Q.   And do you know who this person, Adem, in the phrase that you've

17     referred to, who this person Adem is or was?

18        A.   Of course I do.  Every soldier knows that.  Adem here stands for

19     the legendary commander Adem Jashari.

20        Q.   Do you know why that -- this expression, "Take them to Adem Bace

21     in Drenica," was used?

22        A.   I have just explained.  While we were being trained in Albania,

23     we were told that when somebody says, "Take them to Bace Adem," when your

24     superior tells you that, it means:  Go and kill them.

25        Q.   And who told you that this was the meaning of this phrase?

Page 1940

 1        A.   We were told that in training in Albania.  That's when we were

 2     taught that.

 3        Q.   Just so we're clear, sir, do you know why it is that this

 4     expression was used when someone meant to -- or meant to say "kill them,"

 5     why was this expression used?

 6        A.   It was a phrase and I don't know how to explain how it came

 7     about, but it -- the meaning of the phrase is killing somebody.  Since

 8     Adem Jashari had already been killed at the time -- so where was

 9     Adem Jashari?  He was in his grave.  So, "Take them to Adem Jashari"

10     means like take them to the grave.  To my mind, that is how it came to

11     mean what it meant.

12        Q.   And after Ramush Haradinaj said this expression, "Take them to

13     Adem Bace in Drenica," what happened?

14        A.   After that the local soldiers picked up the two Roma and that

15     young Serb, and they took them to another house which was maybe a hundred

16     metres away.  I didn't know what that house was about at the time;

17     however, I later learned that it was a hospital and that's where they

18     took them.  And a few minutes later they told us, "Go ahead and escort

19     the local soldiers."

20        Q.   Before we move on from there, just going back, after

21     Ramush Haradinaj said that, "Take them to Adem Bace in Drenica," did you

22     hear anyone else of those present say anything?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   Now, you've told us that these three young boys were taken to a

25     house, which you later learned was a hospital.  Just so I'm clear, who

Page 1941

 1     exactly took them to that house which was a hospital?

 2        A.   Local soldiers from Jabllanice, that is, the villagers in

 3     uniform.

 4        Q.   Were you with those villagers when these three young men were

 5     taken to this house that you later learned was a hospital?

 6        A.   Yes.  We were told -- to be more precise, Maxhup told us that we

 7     were supposed to follow them where they were going, and that's what we

 8     did, we followed them where they went.

 9        Q.   And where was this house that you later learned was a hospital?

10     And I'm speaking about in which village was it?

11        A.   Jabllanice.  It was in the same village where we were.

12        Q.   Do you recall approximately how far away you walked from the

13     house or the compound where this interrogation and beating had taken

14     place to get to -- just if you recall, to get to this other house that

15     was used as the hospital?

16        A.   We walked a couple of minutes.  It wasn't far.

17        Q.   And how do you know that this other house was used as a hospital?

18        A.   As I have told you and I'm going to tell you again, I didn't know

19     when I first heard of it.  But since we were not alien [as interpreted]

20     to the place, we were with them and we talked to the locals.  And then

21     they explained to us that there was a hospital in that house.

22             MR. EMMERSON:  I wonder if I might ask Ms. Kravetz just to

23     clarify who it is that the witness is referring to when he says "we" at

24     this point.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Kravetz.

Page 1942

 1             MS. KRAVETZ:  I can clarify that.

 2        Q.   Sir, you told us that -- you said:  "But since we were not" -- I

 3     believe you meant to say "we were alien to the place" and in the

 4     transcript it appears as "not alien to the place."  "We were with them

 5     and we talked to the locals.  When you say "we were with them," whom are

 6     you referring to by "we"?

 7        A.   Me and my comrades who were with me.

 8        Q.   And how many of you -- how many comrades were with you?  When you

 9     say "my comrades," how many people are you talking about?

10        A.   Six, six men.  As I explained at the beginning, that I was with

11     six men.  I and my six comrades who were with me.

12        Q.   And how many locals were accompanying you when you were escorting

13     these three young men?

14        A.   Four or five -- seven of them.  I apologise.  Actually, there

15     were seven villagers and the six of us.

16        Q.   In what condition were the two Romas and the Serb boy when they

17     were taken from the compound where the beating took place to this house

18     that was used as a hospital in the village?

19        A.   It was in a very poor condition or there's --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  They were in a very

21     poor condition.

22             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Excuse me, I'm sorry.  Just for purposes of

23     clarification since that seems to be what we're seeking.  Is it my

24     understanding based upon the witness's answers that there were then

25     13 people who accompanied the three boys to the hospital?  I wonder if we

Page 1943

 1     could get some clarification about that.

 2             MS. KRAVETZ:  I believe the witness gave that answer.  It's at

 3     page 36, lines 13 to 14.  It seems pretty clear, but if Your Honours

 4     consider that I need to clarify further, I'm happy to do that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I think it's a simple -- it's a question of simple

 6     arithmetic.

 7             MR. GUY-SMITH:  I've always been bad at math.  I was just wanting

 8     to make sure that I was right about the numbers.  13, it's clear.  Thank

 9     you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Kravetz, could you ask the witness whether

11     he can give -- whether he knows any of the names of the seven villagers?

12             MS. KRAVETZ:  I can, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Sir, do you know the names of any of the local villagers who were

14     in that group that escorted the two Romas and the Serb boy to the

15     hospital?

16        A.   One of them was Idriz Gashi.

17        Q.   Do you know the names of any other of the villagers?

18        A.   I cannot recall.

19        Q.   You -- when I asked you in what condition the two Romas and the

20     Serb boy were when they were taken to this house that was used as a

21     hospital, you said it was in a very poor condition.  Can you describe

22     what you mean by that, when you say "very poor condition."

23        A.   They were bloody, beaten up, that's what I mean.

24        Q.   Could they still walk?

25        A.   No, they couldn't walk.

Page 1944

 1        Q.   And how did these three young men make their way to the hospital

 2     if they couldn't walk?

 3        A.   I told you that the local soldiers picked them up.  Two of them

 4     were carrying one of these three and they basically carried them there.

 5        Q.   Were the three young boys still alive when the group reached the

 6     hospital or the house that was used as a hospital?

 7        A.   Yes, they were all still alive when they entered the hospital.

 8        Q.   What happened once they arrived at the hospital with these three

 9     young men?

10        A.   We waited outside.  The local soldiers carried them in.  After a

11     quarter hour maybe, they took them out again.

12        Q.   Were the three young boys still alive when they were taken out of

13     the hospital again?

14        A.   No.  They were no longer alive.

15        Q.   I understand it's difficult to speak about this, sir, so just

16     take your time.

17        A.   Can I have a brief pause?

18             MS. KRAVETZ:  I have no objection to that, Your Honours.  I'm in

19     Your Honours' hands.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How brief?  Do you need us to rise or do you just

22     need to go out a short while and you come back, we wait for you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's resume.  It doesn't matter.

24             MS. KRAVETZ:

25        Q.   Are you sure?  We can have a break if you need it.  The Judge is


Page 1945

 1     just simply asking you for how long you need a break, but we can have a

 2     break if you feel the need --

 3        A.   Five, ten minutes, if possible; if not, let's continue.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  If it's going to be

16     five to ten minutes, perhaps we might just as well rise.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Break taken at 11.18 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

21                           [Closed session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1946

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Madam Registrar.

 6             Madam Kravetz.

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Witness, before the break you told us that when these three young

 9     men were taken out of the hospital they were no longer alive.  What did

10     you do with the bodies of these three young men?

11        A.   When they took them out, they were on stretchers, you know, the

12     kind of stretchers you would use for patients.  They were green in colour

13     and they were carried out on these stretchers.

14        Q.   Who carried them out on these stretchers?

15        A.   The local soldiers, the ones who took them in to begin with.

16        Q.   What happened after the three young boys were taken out of the

17     hospital on these stretchers?

18        A.   Then they told us that we should follow the road.  One of them

19     was ahead of us, he was a soldier, a local soldier.  We were just

20     supposed to follow, so we went along.

21        Q.   And when you say "we were supposed to follow," who are you

22     referring to?

23        A.   I mean I, my companions, and the seven persons I mentioned.

24        Q.   Where did you go from the hospital?

25        A.   We went in the direction of the lake.


Page 1947

 1        Q.   Which lake was that?

 2        A.   I didn't know what it was called at the time.  I found out its

 3     name later on, and as we were walking I learned that it was Lake Radoniq

 4     and that that was where we were headed.  So we didn't even know where we

 5     were headed initially until one of the local soldiers told us that we

 6     were going to a lake.

 7        Q.   Do you recall approximately for how long you walked from

 8     Jabllanice village to get to this lake?

 9        A.   An hour and a half to two hours roughly.

10        Q.   And during this walk from Jabllanice village to the lake, who was

11     transporting the bodies of the three young boys?

12        A.   The local soldiers were.

13        Q.   And why were you and the six men who had -- who were part of your

14     group and had travelled with you to Jabllanice in -- also part of this

15     group escorting or accompanying the local soldiers to the lake?

16        A.   We were a special unit which monitored and served as escort along

17     that trip.

18        Q.   And do you recall how it is that you got from the village of

19     Jabllanice to that lake?

20        A.   I do.  Most of the journey took us across fields and woodland

21     because we weren't able to take proper roads, as Serbs were present all

22     around.  So we proceeded with caution.  We then reached a point where

23     there was a canal or channel if I remember correctly.

24        Q.   Can you describe that channel or canal for us?

25        A.   It was a canal leading to the lake.  I think I'm not mistaken if

Page 1948

 1     I say that it had steps made of concrete at its initial stages, whereas

 2     then it proceeds to a narrow canal.  So if I remember correctly, there

 3     were these steps down which I suppose you'd let the water run, and at the

 4     bottom you could see mud and garbage.

 5        Q.   What did you do when you reached this canal or channel?

 6        A.   We proceeded alongside the canal for some 10 metres.  There was a

 7     dirt road there, it wasn't an asphalt road, and we walked along the

 8     length of this dirt road down to the lake.

 9        Q.   Did you actually make it all the way to the lake or did you stop

10     before you reached the lake?

11        A.   We went all the way to the lake.  I remember or what I can

12     remember of our journey on the way to the lake, we were crossing some

13     sort of -- well, there was an amount of water there, a patch of water,

14     and we were supposed to mind not to be seen by anyone, as there was a

15     group of houses nearby.

16        Q.   Did you stop anywhere on this journey from the village of

17     Jabllanice to the lake?

18        A.   Well, of course we did.  They -- we needed to take a rest here

19     and there because they had to carry the bodies.  We would also stop to

20     see if there was army to be seen around.  It's not like we were on our

21     way to a wedding party.  There was the army and the police, we knew that

22     they were around.

23        Q.   What did you do when you reached the lake?

24        A.   When we reached the lake, we were, of course, told that we should

25     surveil the area around and make sure that nobody came closer.

Page 1949

 1        Q.   And what happened after that, after you reached the lake?

 2        A.   As I said, we were making sure, keeping watch, that nobody came.

 3     On one ridge of the lake, that was where the bodies were dumped.

 4        Q.   Who dumped the bodies there?

 5        A.   I told you, the local soldiers did.

 6        Q.   Do you know why the bodies were dumped there?

 7        A.   No, actually, I don't.  And I didn't have the authority to ask

 8     them why they had dumped the bodies there.  It wasn't down to me to ask

 9     that question.

10        Q.   Did anyone who was part of this group explain to you why it is

11     that you went all the way to the lake to dump the bodies?

12        A.   Well -- well, there was no need to put that question, and of

13     course, bodies do decompose and there was a village nearby and here was

14     the lake and, you know, where would you dump a body?

15        Q.   After the bodies were dumped there, what happened?

16        A.   We headed back.  When we returned, one of the local soldiers -

17     and of course we were talking amongst ourselves - told me that there was

18     one other spot where it was dumped the same way.  He showed me that spot

19     and then we returned.

20        Q.   When you say "there was one other spot where it was dumped the

21     same way," what do you mean?

22        A.   Let me make this clear.  As we were on our way back to the

23     village, we took the same route.  So as we were heading back, the dirt

24     road was on our right-hand side and this stream was on our -- or the

25     river was on the left-hand side.  Some 300 or 400 metres into our

Page 1950

 1     journey, he started telling me that this wasn't the only spot where they

 2     would dump them, there was several other spots as well, and this was to

 3     our left, some 2- or 300 metres beyond lake where they were dumped into

 4     the canal.  So now as we head toward the lake it's on our

 5     right-hand side, but as we were heading back from the lake to the

 6     village, he said that it was to our left.

 7        Q.   And when you say "this wasn't the only spot where they would dump

 8     them," what are you referring to by "dump them"?  What was dumped there?

 9        A.   I told you so, the bodies.  So we're starting from scratch again.

10     As we were surveying the terrain, the bodies were dumped into the lake.

11     And some 200 metres into our journey back, we started making

12     conversation, as anybody would, and they told us that on our left -- to

13     our left, where the river was, and as we were heading back to Jabllanice,

14     it was on the left bank of the river, that bodies had been dumped as

15     well.

16        Q.   And who would dump bodies there as well in this other location

17     that you've explained?

18        A.   It wasn't down to me to ask that.  He said, "We dumped them."

19     That was the -- what the local soldier said, but he didn't name any

20     names.  And of course it wasn't down to me to just put that question to

21     him and ask him, "Well, why don't you tell me now who was it who dumped

22     the bodies?"

23        Q.   Okay.  After you dumped the bodies at this location what

24     happened?

25        A.   Well, I just explained to you that we returned and that on our

Page 1951

 1     way back, in our conversation he told me that the bodies had previously

 2     been dumped to our left as we were heading back.  It was to the left of

 3     that concrete canal, that's what he told me.  And then we returned to the

 4     village.

 5        Q.   To which village did you return?

 6        A.   The village of Jabllanice.

 7        Q.   And once you were back at Jabllanice, what did you do?

 8        A.   We rested a while and headed for our zone.

 9        Q.   So do I understand correctly, you left the village?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.

11        Q.   Did you leave that same day?

12        A.   Yes, on that same day.

13        Q.   Just going back a little bit, when you told us that

14     Ramush Haradinaj had given this order of "take them to Adem Bace in

15     Drenica" and you left the compound, what happened with Mr. Haradinaj?

16        A.   I'm sorry, it's not Adem Bace, it's Bace Adem Jashari, just to

17     make sure.  I didn't see Ramush again, no.

18        Q.   What about Mr. Lahi Brahimaj, did you see him again?

19        A.   They went along with him.

20        Q.   When you say "they went along with him," whom are you referring

21     to?

22        A.   Toger and Maxhup.

23        Q.   And they went where?

24        A.   I don't know.  I didn't follow them to know.

25        Q.   Okay.  Sir, yesterday when we were talking about when you first

Page 1952

 1     arrived in Jabllanice village to this house that you've described in the

 2     compound, you said you were taken down to the basement and you saw other

 3     persons being held there.  Do you know what happened to these other

 4     persons who were held there?

 5        A.   I don't.  I never saw them again, so I don't know what happened

 6     to them, if you mean the elderly people.

 7        Q.   Yes, I'm referring to the persons other than the Serb boy and the

 8     two Roma that you've spoken about.

 9        A.   I don't know that because I never saw them again.

10        Q.   Do you know who was in charge of this house that you visited in

11     the compound with the basement where these persons were held?

12        A.   I do.  It was Maxhup as the one in charge, because when I say

13     "Maxhup," I meant that he was the host being of that village.  So it was

14     only natural that he should be the one in charge of that.

15        Q.   Do you know why it is that this Serb boy and the two Romas were

16     interrogated and beaten in the way that you've described?

17        A.   I don't know -- well, it wasn't just this once that they

18     interrogated people.  It is normal for people when they are captured to

19     be interrogated about the whereabouts of the enemy forces, about the

20     location of their check-point, and such-like.  Well, at least I think so.

21        Q.   And why do you say it's normal when people are captured to be

22     interrogated about these things?

23        A.   Well, you want to learn as much as you can about the enemy when

24     you're a soldier, when you're a commander, you want to learn more to make

25     sure that your people are not ambushed and trapped, and that's normal and


Page 1953

 1     natural for every war.  It is natural that you would ask people to tell

 2     you where their forces are.  When you're a soldier, you want very much to

 3     know where your enemy is, you want to know which route to take, which

 4     direction you can expect an attack to come from.

 5        Q.   Were these Roma and the Serb boy that you saw interrogated and

 6     beaten in uniform at the time that you witnessed this incident?

 7        A.   Who exactly do you mean?  I apologise.  I didn't understand well.

 8        Q.   I meant the young Serb and the two Roma, when you saw them during

 9     this beating and interrogation, were they in any sort of uniform?

10        A.   No, civilians, just as I am now.

11             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, before we take the break could we

12     briefly go into private session just for a couple of questions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 1954











11 Page 1954 redacted. Private session.
















Page 1955

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Closed session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23             We'll take a break and come back at half past 12.00.  Court

24     adjourned.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

Page 1956

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

12             Yes, Madam Kravetz.

13             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Sir, you've told us about your first trip to the village of

15     Jabllanice.  Did you go there a second time in 1998?

16        A.   Before that I would like to go back to something, if I may.

17        Q.   Yes, sir, go ahead.

18        A.   I have a bit of stage fright for lack of a better word.  This is

19     the first time I've appeared before a Court.  I apologise to both you and

20     the Trial Chamber for mixing up units, because I was mentioning only

21     Tigers, Tigers this, Tigers that, and it wasn't really that way.  I can

22     tell about our unit, what it was called, and about theirs.

23             MS. KRAVETZ:  If we could go into private session for this

24     clarification.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.


Page 1957

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

21             Yes, Madam Kravetz.

22             MS. KRAVETZ:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   Sir, you've told us about your first trip to the village of

24     Jabllanice and I had asked you when we started if you had gone there a

25     second time in 1998.


Page 1958

 1        A.   Yes, I went there a second time.

 2        Q.   How much time or how much later after this first trip to

 3     Jabllanice did your second trip take place?

 4        A.   Two or three weeks later, possibly a little more than that.  I

 5     don't really remember exactly.

 6        Q.   And did you travel there alone or did you travel there with other

 7     people?

 8        A.   With others.

 9        Q.   With how many other people did you travel there and who were

10     these persons?

11        A.   It -- I travelled with those same companions of mine.  We

12     belonged to the same unit, and wherever we went, we went together.

13        Q.   At what time of the day did you arrive in Jabllanice village?

14        A.   It was early in the morning.  In the early hours of the morning

15     we arrived there.

16        Q.   Why did you travel to Jabllanice village a second time?

17        A.   We were ordered by the commander to go there and help them out.

18        Q.   And when you say "by the commander," which -- without mentioning

19     any names, just so you can tell me if you're speaking of your commander

20     or some other commander.

21        A.   Our commander.

22        Q.   What did you do after you arrived in the Jabllanice on this

23     second occasion?

24        A.   We went to the same house as the first time around, and clearly

25     we met Maxhup there, had a talk, and rested a while because it wasn't

Page 1959

 1     such a short journey after all.

 2        Q.   You say that you had a talk with Maxhup.  What did you discuss,

 3     do you recall?

 4        A.   We spoke about how we travelled, whether we saw enemy units

 5     anywhere, and -- it was a normal conversation.

 6        Q.   After you finished resting, what did you do?

 7        A.   After that, Maxhup told us that we were to escort two Roma and a

 8     Serb again to a neighbouring village, that we should take them there.

 9        Q.   And where were these two Roma and the Serb that you were to

10     escort, where were they?

11        A.   In the basement of the same room where that previous group had

12     been.

13        Q.   When you say "that previous group," which previous group are you

14     referring to?

15        A.   The young folks about whom I spoke today, the two Roma, the Serb

16     youth, and the two older people.

17        Q.   Did you go down into that basement?

18        A.   No, I did not.

19        Q.   And what happened after Maxhup told you that you were to escort

20     these two Roma and the Serb to another village?

21        A.   The local soldiers from Jabllanice village brought them out.

22     We -- or they handed them over to us.  And when we went there for the

23     second time, Maxhup and the local soldiers had captured a

24     Pinzgauer vehicle from the Serb army, and they gave us that vehicle to

25     travel where we could use it.

Page 1960

 1        Q.   Do you know whether anyone else was -- I'm speaking about the

 2     second visit that you made to Jabllanice.  Do you know whether there was

 3     anyone else being held in that basement other than these two Roma and the

 4     Serb that you're speaking about?

 5        A.   I cannot remember.  I don't know about you, but I can only speak

 6     about things in the sequence in which I remember them and I will tell you

 7     what I remember.  I don't remember, however, whether anybody else was

 8     there.  I haven't seen anybody because I didn't go into the basement.

 9        Q.   For how long did you remain in Jabllanice at this house on this

10     second visit?

11        A.   A couple of hours, three, four hours maybe.

12        Q.   Sir, you told us earlier this morning that during your first

13     visit there, you witnessed an interrogation and beating of a Serb youth

14     and two Roma boys.  During this second visit, did you see anyone being

15     questioned by the soldiers in Jabllanice or by anyone else?

16        A.   No, I did not.  No.  There were no interrogations.  We were only

17     required to take them to the neighbouring village.

18        Q.   Did you take these three individuals, the Serb and the two Roma,

19     to the neighbouring village?

20        A.   Yes, we did.

21        Q.   And why did you have to take them there?

22        A.   I don't know that.  I couldn't say.  When you're a soldier, you

23     can't ask the commander why you are to do this or that.  You're ordered

24     to help out somebody and that's what you do, and when you're told, "Take

25     them to another place," then you go there.  You're not meant to ask why

Page 1961

 1     or how when you're a soldier.

 2        Q.   And after you took these three individuals to the neighbouring

 3     village, what did you do?

 4        A.   You're rushing with your questions a bit, if I may say.  I would

 5     like to finish what I was speaking about.  While we were taking there,

 6     one of the Roma who spoke Albanian -- I heard one of them calling the

 7     other by his name.  I remember that the name was Afrim, that was the name

 8     of one of the Roma.

 9        Q.   And approximately how old were these three individuals that you

10     were escorting?

11        A.   About the same age as the others, possibly a bit younger.  I've

12     already explained to you it wasn't up to me to ask them their age or

13     anything else.

14        Q.   And do you know why these three individuals were being held there

15     at this house -- at this basement in Jabllanice?

16        A.   I don't know.  I apologise.  I was a soldier, and let me explain

17     you again.  I had no right to ask any questions why they were here, how

18     they were brought here, why they were taken prisoner.  It wasn't for me

19     to ask.  It was my duty to carry out my task and return to my unit.

20        Q.   Did you escort these three individuals on your own or did anyone

21     else come with you?

22        A.   I and my companions who were with me and one more local soldier

23     who knew the way.

24        Q.   And after you had escorted these three individuals to this

25     neighbouring village, what did you do?

Page 1962

 1        A.   As usual, we returned to our zone.

 2        Q.   During this second visit, did you -- you've told us you met and

 3     spoke with Maxhup.  Did you see anyone else there at this house in

 4     Jabllanice during the second visit, other than Maxhup?

 5        A.   I saw local soldiers.

 6        Q.   Were these three persons that you escorted, I'm talking about the

 7     Serb and the Roma, dressed in any kind of uniform?

 8        A.   No, they were civilians.

 9        Q.   Sir, you've told us that after you escorted these three

10     individuals you returned to your zone.  Did you visit the village of

11     Jabllanice on another occasion, on a third occasion?

12        A.   Yes, I went there again.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mrs. Kravetz, before you go into the third visit,

14     could I ask the witness whether he knows the name of the local soldier

15     that went with the six of them to escort the three people?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not.  I really don't remember.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MS. KRAVETZ:

19        Q.   Now you're -- you were telling us that you went to the village of

20     Jabllanice on a third occasion.  When did this third visit to Jabllanice

21     take place, approximately how much later than the second visit?

22        A.   A month or a month and a half possibly elapsed.

23        Q.   And again, sir, did you travel there on your own or with other

24     people?

25        A.   I travelled with the same companions as on the first

Page 1963

 1     two occasions.

 2        Q.   And why did you go there a third time, to the village of

 3     Jabllanice?

 4        A.   I've explained to you that we went there to help out because we

 5     were from the neighbouring zone.  The Dukagjini Zone and the Drenica Zone

 6     are next to each other.  When we needed help they came to us and when

 7     they needed help we went to them, and that's why we went there, to help

 8     them out.

 9        Q.   And what did you do when you arrived in the village of Jabllanice

10     on this third occasion?

11        A.   The third time when I went there I arrived at the same house and

12     had a rest for a while.  After that I saw Maxhup again, not just me, of

13     course, but I and my companions.  And after a short conversation about

14     how we were, how we had travelled and so on, he took us to the basement

15     to see who was in there.  There were two young Serbs.  One was rather

16     tall, the other less so.  If I'm not mistaken, one of them had blond hair

17     and wore a uniform, if I'm not mistaken.  But I think he did wear a

18     uniform.

19        Q.   Can you describe this uniform this person with the blond hair was

20     wearing, just as best as you remember.

21        A.   It was a military-style uniform with a camouflage pattern.

22        Q.   Was there -- and what colour was this uniform?

23        A.   Rather dark green dappled with a -- as I said -- and it has a

24     camouflage pattern.

25        Q.   And in what condition was this person -- were these two young

Page 1964

 1     Serbs that you saw in the basement?

 2        A.   I apologise.  Before that I would like to add something to finish

 3     what I began to describe.  When we went to the basement, they were in a

 4     rather poor condition.  But according to the words of Maxhup and a local

 5     soldier, the name of one of them was either Senad or Nenad, but I think

 6     it was Senad, and that he was a police officer, the one wearing the

 7     uniform.  I think that was his name.  I may be mistaken.  I'm not certain

 8     now whether the name was Senad or Nenad.

 9        Q.   When you say they were in a rather poor condition, could you

10     explain what you mean by that?

11        A.   Pretty badly beaten up with bruises, dirty, that's what I meant.

12        Q.   Was there anyone else in this basement other than these two Serbs

13     that you've -- two young Serbs that you've described?

14        A.   Well, of course, there was me and one of my companions.

15        Q.   I meant were there any other prisoners in the basement other than

16     these two Serbs that you've described?

17        A.   Oh, I apologise.  I didn't understand.  Apart from these two

18     there were a couple of older people, mostly men, but also some women.

19        Q.   Do you know -- when you say "a couple of older people, mostly

20     men, but also women," how many people approximately are you speaking

21     about?

22        A.   I don't know because I didn't count them.  I didn't go there to

23     count and inspect the conditions.  I was there on a different mission.

24     How should I describe it?  I was there to carry some mail.  And during

25     the conversation he told me, "I caught two young Serbs," and then I went

Page 1965

 1     to see them.  But how many of them there were inside I really wouldn't --

 2     couldn't say.  It wasn't a big room like this courtroom we're in now and

 3     I didn't pay so much attention.

 4        Q.   But when you say that there was a group of people there, are you

 5     talking about 20 or 30, more than that, less than that?  Can you give

 6     us -- can you just try to give us an estimate of how many people you

 7     think you saw there?  And, sir, before you answer, just as I had

 8     explained before, you have to wait until I turn off the microphone.  You

 9     can go ahead now.

10        A.   Approximately nine or ten, but I really didn't count so I

11     couldn't give you an exact number.  It wasn't a large room.  It was just

12     a -- just an ordinary basement of a house, maybe 4 metres by 4, not a

13     large hall.  So I would -- it was a room that didn't hold very many

14     people.

15        Q.   When you went there the first time you told us that you saw that

16     there was water in this basement.  On this second occasion when you went

17     down to the basement, did you also see water there?

18        A.   I didn't pay attention, as I told you.  I didn't really look for

19     water.  I can only tell you what I remember.  I saw some blood-stains on

20     the walls.  So whatever caught my eye I can tell you, but whether there

21     was water the second time or the third time, I really don't remember.

22     Once I entered this -- the other time I didn't enter at all and the third

23     time I entered again, as I explained.

24        Q.   You told us there were women there.  Do you recall approximately

25     how many women were being held in this basement?  Just roughly, to the

Page 1966

 1     best of your recollection, sir.

 2        A.   I told you that there were a couple of women, but again I didn't

 3     count.  I'm sorry.  There were around nine or ten persons in all.

 4     Certainly there were fewer women than men.  The ratio may have been three

 5     to six, but I didn't pay attention really.

 6        Q.   You've told us that two of these persons held in the basement

 7     were Serb.  Can you help us with the ethnicity of the other persons who

 8     you saw there?

 9        A.   I cannot because I didn't ask them what ethnicity they were.  I

10     didn't have the right to, so I really can't help you there.  I don't

11     know.

12        Q.   And how were you able to find out that two of these persons were

13     Serb, two of the persons that you saw there in the basement?

14        A.   I told you that when we said hello that Maxhup said that he had

15     captured two young Serbs.  I knew then that they were Serbs and, of

16     course, by their uniform.

17        Q.   Did Maxhup or anyone else there tell you anything about how these

18     two Serbs had been captured?

19        A.   I only know that they took them prisoner.  If I remember

20     correctly, they were captured in a car, they were in a car together, or

21     so I was told.  Yes, I think they were captured in a car.

22        Q.   You've told us that one of these two Serb men was in a uniform.

23     Was anyone else of the persons you saw in this basement dressed in a

24     uniform or wearing a uniform?

25        A.   Apart from him, no, from what I could see at least.

Page 1967

 1        Q.   What did you do after you visited this basement and saw these

 2     people there?

 3        A.   We went back upstairs, and when I say "upstairs," I mean the

 4     office or at least the room that they used as an office.  We finished our

 5     business there and went back.

 6        Q.   When you say "we finished our business there," what do you mean?

 7        A.   Well, we delivered to them something that they needed.  That's

 8     what it means.

 9        Q.   Are you able to tell us what it was that you delivered on that

10     occasion?

11        A.   I cannot.  It was in a bag and -- a handbag and I didn't look in

12     to see what was there.

13        Q.   Sir, during this third visit, did you see any one of these

14     persons who were held in that basement being interrogated or questioned

15     by any of the KLA soldiers that were there?

16        A.   I forgot.  I'm sorry.  There's one other thing I have to tell

17     you, to just finish the story.  When we went upstairs to the office, and

18     I said it was to the right as you entered the front door, it was the

19     second office on the right-hand side, and there -- Maxhup asked the local

20     policeman -- the local soldier to bring over the man in uniform, and that

21     was where the interrogation started.

22        Q.   Were you present during this interrogation?

23        A.   For the most part, yes -- well, a couple of minutes I was there.

24        Q.   Can you tell us what happened during this interrogation of the

25     man in uniform?

Page 1968

 1        A.   The interrogation was the same as the one I described to you

 2     before, where the location of the check-point was, where the police was

 3     located, that sort of thing.

 4        Q.   Do you know the name of this person, the man in uniform who was

 5     questioned in this office on that occasion?

 6        A.   I told you that his name was Senad or Nenad, though probably the

 7     latter.  I may be mistaken, but that's what I recall.

 8        Q.   Who did the questioning during this interrogation of this

 9     individual?

10        A.   Well, who else but Maxhup?  He was there for that sort of thing

11     so, of course, it would be him conducting the interrogation.

12        Q.   Was there anyone else present in the room other than Maxhup and

13     yourself?

14        A.   I was there, Maxhup was there, a local soldier of his, and of

15     course my comrade, the one who always accompanied me.

16        Q.   And why were you there in that room for that interrogation?

17        A.   We were there because I happened to be there.  As I told you, I

18     went upstairs from the basement and that room to finish off the business

19     that we had, and in the meantime they brought the man over and we just

20     lingered there a bit.  We were freshmen in that sort of business, so we

21     just wanted to stay on and see how this sort of thing is done.

22        Q.   When you say "this sort of thing is done," what are you referring

23     to?  You said you wanted to see how this sort of thing is done, what are

24     you referring to by "this sort of thing"?

25        A.   How one is interrogated, because this was the first time that

Page 1969

 1     there was someone in a uniform belonging to the enemy side.  So I was

 2     interested in seeing how an enemy is questioned and how an enemy is made

 3     to speak.

 4        Q.   And how was this person questioned and made to speak?

 5        A.   Well, just as the situations we described previously, of course

 6     no enemy is willing to tell you and give you information right away, and

 7     Maxhup was known to be wielding a baseball bat and was known that -- for

 8     beating people up, knocking nine balls out of them.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But what I'm asking you is:  How was this person in

10     uniform whom you think was called Senad or Nenad questioned by Maxhup on

11     that occasion?  Can you just tell us what happened?

12        A.   Well, I just did.  Maxhup is known for wielding a baseball bat.

13     Of course he didn't offer him a coffee and tell him to take a seat.  He

14     was beating him up, asking about his fellow soldiers, the check-point,

15     et cetera.  And of course he was telling him, "Tell me where your fellow

16     soldiers are and then we can make a deal," but of course they were not

17     fellow soldiers, they were the enemy.  So he was using his baseball bat

18     for that.

19        Q.   You say that Maxhup was beating him up.  Where was Maxhup hitting

20     him, I mean in which part of the body was he hitting him?

21        A.   All over his body.  I can't single out any specific body part

22     such as head or anything.  He was hitting him all over the body, and I

23     didn't really pay specific attention to where the bat would land.  But he

24     would hit him all over.

25        Q.   And during this beating, did this person who was being

Page 1970

 1     interrogated say anything?

 2        A.   That person was pleading for his life, weeping, and that sort of

 3     thing.

 4        Q.   When you say that he was pleading for his life, what exactly did

 5     you hear him say?

 6        A.   He said, "Don't kill me.  I've done nothing wrong," that sort of

 7     thing.

 8        Q.   Did anyone else participate in this beating, other than Maxhup?

 9        A.   As far as I recall, no.  Halfway through the beating we went, we

10     had to get back.  And for as long as I was there, from what I recall

11     there wasn't anybody else involved.

12        Q.   Was there anyone recording the answers this person was giving

13     during the interrogation?

14        A.   It's an odd question you're asking me.  I didn't pay attention to

15     that, but, of course, in any military setting if there is anything to

16     make a note of, that will be done.

17        Q.   For how long did this beating take place?

18        A.   I didn't keep count of the time.  It didn't last that long,

19     15 to 20 minutes perhaps, approximately.  As I told you, after that first

20     beating we left, we had to go back.

21        Q.   Did you later -- you said you had to go back.  Did you later

22     return to Jabllanice village?

23        A.   Not again, and let me explain why.  Several months later, a major

24     offensive was launched by the Serb forces and we all withdrew.  We all

25     withdrew from the points where we were.  The offensive was so fierce that

Page 1971

 1     we weren't able to defend ourselves against it, and I never went back

 2     there again.

 3        Q.   I just want to go back to this interrogation that you witnessed.

 4     Could you describe this person to us, the person in uniform, who was

 5     being interrogated?

 6        A.   I said that he was as tall as me, perhaps a bit taller.  His hair

 7     was blond and he was gaunt.

 8        Q.   Did Maxhup or anyone else, any other of the soldiers there, tell

 9     you anything about how long this person had been detained in this

10     basement in Jabllanice?

11        A.   No.  We never asked him and he never told us how long he was

12     there.  As a soldier you are not entitled to put questions to anyone.  I

13     wasn't there to ask about what was going on.  I was there to do the job I

14     was given and it wasn't up to me to be asking about the man or how long

15     he had been there.  I apologise, but that was the case.  So he never told

16     me anything and I never asked.

17        Q.   But you told us when you arrived there Maxhup had told you that

18     he had captured two Serbs.  Did he mention anything about how many days

19     had gone by since he had captured these individuals?

20        A.   I don't remember.  Truly I apologise, but I don't remember.  The

21     only thing I know is that he told us that he was captured, but I don't

22     recall him saying when or where.

23        Q.   Do you know what happened to this other -- the other prisoners

24     you saw in that basement?

25        A.   I don't know.  We went back to our zone, so I really don't know

Page 1972

 1     what happened.

 2        Q.   And what about this person whose interrogation you witnessed, do

 3     you know what happened to him?

 4        A.   I don't know what became of him.  I suppose he, being an enemy

 5     and having a uniform, did not meet a good end, but I don't know what

 6     happened.  I explained to you we left for our zone.

 7        Q.   Just to clarify, you've told us that this person was in uniform.

 8     Do you know which force he belonged to?  And I'm not asking the specific

 9     unit, but do you know which force he belonged to?

10        A.   I cannot tell you what specific unit that was.  It was an enemy

11     unit.  I know that it was a Serbian unit, but which unit, what it was, I

12     don't know.  I only know that he was an enemy to us.

13        Q.   I'm not asking which unit specifically he belonged to, but do you

14     know which force he belonged to?

15        A.   It belonged to the armed forces.

16        Q.   Sir, you've told us that after this occasion you went back to

17     your zone and that you didn't return later, is that correct, that you

18     didn't return on an additional occasion to Jabllanice?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   At any time during these visits you made there, were you able to

21     obtain any information as to why persons were being held in the basement

22     of this house in Jabllanice that you visited?

23        A.   But of course, because they weren't members of our ethnicity,

24     that's to say Albanians, they were either Serbs, the Roma, or the

25     Catholics.  Let me explain one thing to you.  All those who failed to

Page 1973

 1     co-operate who did not wear a uniform were either disabled or were not

 2     Albanians or were collaborators of the Serbian side.

 3        Q.   When you say all of those who failed to co-operate, what do you

 4     mean exactly, failed to co-operate with whom?

 5        A.   I apologise, but you asked me what I thought happened in that

 6     house.  So I'm telling you about this specific event.  Kosovo is a large

 7     place.  I can't refer to the general situation.  So I'm referring to that

 8     person in the house who didn't have a uniform, and it -- you can tell

 9     easily who he was.  He was either a spy, pardon my expression, but he

10     wouldn't co-operate or he was of a different religious affiliation.

11        Q.   I just want to clarify that answer, sir.  You're saying you're

12     referring to that person in the house who didn't have a uniform.  Are you

13     speaking about a particular individual or are you just generally speaking

14     about persons without uniforms?  It's not clear to me from your answer.

15        A.   To make this quite clear, I'm talking about the house where we

16     were and I cannot speak for the village.  There were villagers there, so

17     I can't say that every one of them who didn't have a uniform was either a

18     spy or refused to co-operate.  I'm speaking about the situation where I

19     was present, i.e., in that specific house.  I can't say everyone because

20     there was an entire village there.  Imagine me saying that all of them

21     were this and that.  It's impossible.  I apologise.

22        Q.   I understand, sir, you're speaking about the house which we've

23     been discussing in your testimony, the house with the basement.  I'm just

24     trying to understand whom you're referring to when you say that they were

25     either spies or refused to co-operate.

Page 1974

 1        A.   I mean those who were in the basement.  So let me explain this

 2     once again.  When I say those who did not wear a uniform, I mean the

 3     persons who were present in that basement, either on the first or the

 4     second or the third occasion.  I am referring to the individuals who were

 5     there, not the houses in general but those specific houses.

 6        Q.   And why do you say, sir, that those persons who were held in the

 7     basement that you saw were either persons who were spies or had refused

 8     to co-operate?  What is your basis to say that?

 9        A.   Well, on the basis of the fact that had he been an ordinary

10     villager, he would not have had his hands tied and kept in that basement

11     or be beaten up, and it's on that basis that I would characterise the

12     person as either of the two things, a spy or not of our religion.

13     Otherwise, what would that person be doing in that basement, tied up, and

14     beaten blue?

15        Q.   Do you know why it is, sir, that persons were held in this

16     house -- in the basement of this house in Jabllanice village?  Why did

17     this --

18        A.   Can you repeat, please.

19        Q.   Yes, I haven't finished my question.  Do you know why this house

20     with the basement where people were held existed in Jabllanice village?

21        A.   That's an easy thing to find out.  The village of Jabllanice is a

22     bit further away from the main road where there was a presence of the

23     Serb units and paramilitary units.  It's in a location that is a bit

24     remote, and that's why it was better suited than some others.

25        Q.   Thank you for that, sir.  Sir, you told us that you saw

Page 1975

 1     Ramush Haradinaj on the first occasion that you went to Jabllanice.  Did

 2     you see him there on any of the other occasions that you visited the

 3     village of Jabllanice?

 4        A.   No, I didn't see him.  Because two or three days before,

 5     Mr. Ramush Haradinaj became the commander for the overall Dukagjini area

 6     and I was small fry and couldn't expect to see him.  It would have been a

 7     great honour to meet him at the time, but I never did.

 8        Q.   When you say "two or three days before," before when?  When

 9     exactly are you talking about?

10        A.   It was April or May of 1998 that all of this happened, that he

11     became the commander in charge based on his courage and numerous

12     successes in combat.  It was on that basis that he became

13     Commander-in-Chief.

14        Q.   I understand, sir.  But when you said "two or three days before,"

15     are you referring to some period before one of your visits or were you

16     referring to another time-period?

17        A.   No, no, before the second incident.  Let's make this clear.

18     Before the second visit, my second visit to the village of Jabllanice,

19     that was the time I had in mind.

20        Q.   You told us during your first trip there you saw Mr. Idriz Balaj,

21     also known as Toger.  Did you see him at this house in Jabllanice on any

22     of the other two occasions that you visited?

23        A.   No, I never saw him again.  I saw him that once when he came and

24     never again.

25        Q.   You've told us also -- you referred to a person by the name of

Page 1976

 1     Idriz Gashi and you mentioned that you saw him there on the first

 2     occasion.  Did you see him on any of the other occasions that you visited

 3     the village of Jabllanice?

 4        A.   Yes, I did see him.  Since he was of that village I saw him the

 5     next time as well.  He was a local soldier, so of course I met him the

 6     second and the third time I was there.

 7        Q.   You have also referred to a person by the name of Nazmi Brahimaj

 8     and you said you met him there when you went there for the first time --

 9     when you went to Jabllanice for the first time.  Did you see

10     Nazmi Brahimaj on any of the other two occasions that you visited

11     Jabllanice village?

12        A.   I saw him once more.  I don't know if it was on the second or the

13     third occasion, but when Ramush Haradinaj became the Commander-in-Chief

14     for the overall zone, unless I'm mistaken, if I remember correctly,

15     Nazmi Brahimaj became the commander of the Jabllanice Zone.  It's not as

16     large as the Dukagjini Zone.  But at any rate, at that point he became

17     the commander of the Jabllanice Zone.

18        Q.   You told me earlier today when I asked you who was the commander

19     of this house with the basement where people were held, you told me that

20     you thought it was Lahi Brahimaj.  After Nazmi Brahimaj became the

21     commander of the zone, do you know if Lahi Brahimaj remained the person

22     in charge of this house where persons were held in Jabllanice or did

23     someone else become in charge of that?  If you know.

24        A.   You're saying "commander."  There was commanders commanding at

25     various levels, squad, platoon, company, and so on, in accordance with

Page 1977

 1     the hierarchy of the army.  But the commander of the unit that was in

 2     charge of that house was Maxhup clearly.  The commander of the

 3     village - and I mean Jabllanice - was his brother.

 4        Q.   And when you say the commander of the village was his brother,

 5     can you just be clear as to the name of the brother?

 6        A.   Nazmi Brahimaj.

 7        Q.   And when you say he was the commander of the village, are you

 8     referring to the period you've just mentioned when you said he became the

 9     commander of Jabllanice zone or are you referring to a period before

10     that?

11        A.   I'm referring to the same period as I said.  After the first time

12     I had gone there, that is, two or three days before going there for the

13     second time and that was two or three weeks after the first visit,

14     Ramush Haradinaj had become the commander of the whole zone.  At that

15     moment, Nazmi Brahimaj became village commander.  Why?  If you want to

16     know I can tell you that I had the honour to meet both of them.

17     Nazmi Brahimaj is an honourable man who was frank to me and sincere to

18     me, and he told me about it.  But I don't want to comment any further

19     because he is really very strong.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I have no further questions at this

22     stage.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Kravetz.

24             Mr. --

25             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, I see the time.  As Your Honour


Page 1978

 1     knows, there are certain issues outstanding.  I don't know if you want me

 2     to address you on it.  I was going to invite you to adjourn until

 3     tomorrow afternoon.  If you would like me to address you on it, then I

 4     would like to do so in the absence of the witness.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you address us tomorrow?

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you do it tomorrow?

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, I'm hoping that the issues will be resolved

 9     by then.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

11             You -- or you were asking for an adjournment now.

12             Okay.  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

13                           [Closed session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 1979

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.

 4             We stand adjourned to tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the

 5     afternoon.  Court adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.36 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

 8                           November, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.