Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2064

 1                           Thursday, 24 November 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning to everybody in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, The Prosecutor versus Ramush

10     Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

12             Could we have the appearances for today please, starting with the

13     Prosecution.

14             MS. KRAVETZ:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Daniela Kravetz, for

15     the Prosecution, together with Aditya Menon, our legal intern

16     Andrej Micovic, and our Case Manager, Line Pedersen.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Ma'am.

18             For Mr. Haradinaj.

19             MR. EMMERSON:  Ben Emmerson for Ramush Haradinaj, together with

20     Rodney Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, Andrew Strong.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.

22             And for Mr. Balaj.

23             MR. GUY-SMITH:  Gregor Guy-Smith on behalf of Idriz Balaj,

24     together with Colleen Rohan, Chad Mair, Gentian Zyberi.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.


Page 2065

 1             For Mr. Brahimaj.

 2             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Richard Harvey,

 3     assisted by Mr. Paul Troop and Mr. Luke Boenisch for Mr. Lahi Brahimaj.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, Mr. Harvey.

 5             May we move into closed session, please.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             Good morning, Mr. Witness.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you feel today.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not at my best, but ...

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Just to remind you that you're still bound

20     by the declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony to

21     tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth.

22             Thank you so much.

23             Mr. Emmerson.

24                           WITNESS:  81 [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]


Page 2066

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]

 2        Q.   Witness, I want to ask you some questions now about what you say

 3     happened to these two Roma and this Serb boy after the assaults and

 4     ill-treatment that you claim to have witnessed.

 5             If we've understood the picture correctly, now on your final

 6     version we have two out of these three young men have had their ears cut

 7     off and one has had his eye removed.  Can you help us, please, exactly

 8     how they were taken to the building you say was a hospital?

 9        A.   I did talk about this, but I will repeat what I said.

10             The local soldiers held them under their arms and took them to

11     the hospital.

12        Q.   Were they conscious or unconscious, these three men?

13        A.   Sir, I wasn't looking to see if they were conscious or not.  They

14     were alive.  One could tell that.  There was general chaos.  It wasn't

15     like a wedding party that we should all be interested in watching them.

16     It wasn't a pleasant sight.  But they were alive, you could tell.

17        Q.   Were they fighting or resisting?

18        A.   Were they able to resist?

19        Q.   Just answer the question, please.  Were they fighting or

20     resisting?

21        A.   They were tied, sir.  And, of course, any man alive tries to

22     resist.

23        Q.   Who tied them?

24        A.   They were already tied at the time they were taken out of the

25     basement, so I don't know who did it.

Page 2067

 1        Q.   So you had nothing to do with tying them?

 2        A.   I wasn't there to tie people up.

 3        Q.   You then told us on Tuesday that after they came out of this

 4     building they were dead and that their dead bodies were then carried, to

 5     be dumped at the lake.

 6             Is that correctly understood?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we call up 65 ter 3119.  Sorry, I think it now

 9     has an exhibit number, D201.

10             Can we please turn to paragraph 16.

11        Q.   Paragraph 16 reads for the record:

12             "During the interview on the 23rd and the 24th," so over two

13     days, "I stated that after the beatings the three prisoners were taken to

14     a spot outside of Jabllanice near a lake, where they were left behind.  I

15     also stated that they were still alive when they were left behind."

16             Why did you, over two days, tell the Prosecutor that the men were

17     taken alive to the lake and left there alive?

18        A.   I explained this to you yesterday, the whys and hows.

19             This is my first time in a court of law properly.

20             Secondly, let me answer your question.  You are taking it point

21     by point.  I was in a state of confusion.  In the middle of a town, that

22     I won't say which one, and in the midst of people of an authority I won't

23     mention.  Plus, I had gone through and experienced everything that I did.

24     Had you been in my shoes, you would have been afraid, just as much as I

25     was.

Page 2068

 1        Q.   You've now told us probably 20 times that script, about how

 2     afraid you were, where you were, what was going on in your mind.  I'm

 3     going to ask you to focus, please, on the question.

 4             For two days, you told the Prosecutor these men were left alive

 5     at the lake.  Why did you lie to the Prosecutor for two days?  What was

 6     your reason?

 7             MS. KRAVETZ:  Objection, Your Honour.  The witness has answered

 8     the question.

 9             And, secondly, I would ask - and Judge Hall already cautioned

10     Mr. Emmerson about this yesterday, Mr. Emmerson continues to tell the

11     witness he is lying and asking him why he has lied, and Judge Hall

12     yesterday asked him if he could please put his questions in another

13     manner, because this has a certain cultural implication that the witness

14     may perceive these questions in a different manner than what Mr. Emmerson

15     is intending.  But --

16             MR. EMMERSON:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  But the question has already been answered.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson, please do sit down.

19             MS. KRAVETZ:  But the question has been answered.  The witness

20     has given the explanation that he can give on this matter.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson.

22             MR. EMMERSON:  I was going to say I'll rephrase the question if

23     it's a difficult one.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thank you, sir.

25             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Emmerson, as you are rephrasing the question,

Page 2069

 1     I'm not losing sight of the fact that you -- of the thrust of your

 2     question in terms of the varying accounts that he would have given to the

 3     Prosecution on the 23rd and 24th.  But looking at paragraph 18, in

 4     fairness to the witness, shouldn't that be incorporated -- [Overlapping

 5     speakers] ...

 6             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm absolutely -- I'm absolutely coming to

 7     paragraph 18.

 8             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 9             MR. EMMERSON:

10        Q.   What I want to understand, Witness, is when you told the

11     Prosecutor over two days that these men were left alive at the lake, did

12     you know that what you were telling them was untrue?  Yes or no.

13        A.   Everything I said, even if I'm still in fear for my life, but

14     you're not interested in that, from what I can tell, everything I said

15     was what I knew.  I said things as best I could.

16             Now why did I change my account?  The second time I met with the

17     Prosecution, it was in a location that was of the Prosecution and not of

18     that other side that I want to mention.  At that point I was told not to

19     be afraid and to speak freely everything I know.  And the question you're

20     putting to me, Mr. Lawyer, is quite clear to me and you're quite right in

21     putting it.

22             But there is one request that I have for the Judges.  You see,

23     every time I go back I have difficulties.  I recalled yesterday one

24     particular point that is important for the Judges and the Prosecution,

25     and please, if I could be allowed to say what I have.  I recalled it just

Page 2070

 1     yesterday.

 2             If you're pressing me on this point, well, let me tell you that I

 3     was afraid all that time, and if the Judge told me yesterday that I could

 4     speak freely, I remembered something that is very important for the

 5     Judges and for the entire trial, because it may inform you of some things

 6     that you don't know anything about.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just mention it.  Mention this thing that you say

 8     you recalled, sir.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All this time I've been here,

10     Mr. Lawyer has been attacking me and I don't know why, because nothing of

11     what happened is a secret.  They even produced a documentary of their own

12     and I would ask you to watch that documentary.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt.  Is that what you recall?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't let me finish, I'm

15     sorry.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Because you're not telling us you recalled, sir.

17     You're telling me what the lawyer is doing to you.  So I want you to get

18     straight to what you recalled.

19             Just tell us what you recalled.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I recalled is this:  When I

21     was giving my statement, I was under stress and frightened, and I mean my

22     statement here before the Tribunal.  I omitted to say one thing.  Again,

23     I am afraid still now because my family is somewhere that is not safe.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just say it, sir.  We know you are afraid.  You

25     have told us all that many times.  Just say what is it you recalled

Page 2071

 1     yesterday.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we were mentioning the Serb, I

 3     remembered that there was one other event there as well.  As you can see,

 4     he is asking me on four points, but there are three-points --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just hold on, just hold on.  When you are ready to

 6     tell us what you recalled, and if you feel ready and wish to tell it, you

 7     will tell us.

 8             Proceed, sir.

 9             MR. EMMERSON:

10        Q.   What's the documentary you're referring to?  Have you watched a

11     documentary about something that you think is relevant to this case?

12        A.   That is very relevant.

13        Q.   When did you watch that?  Is it before or after you first gave an

14     account to the Office of the Prosecutor?

15        A.   It's widely known on the Internet because they're boasting about

16     what they did.  It's known generally on the Internet.

17        Q.   Have you done quite a lot of research before giving a statement

18     to the Prosecution or not?

19        A.   I don't understand.

20        Q.   Did you look at documentaries and material on the Internet before

21     approaching the Prosecutors to give this account about Jabllanice for the

22     first time 13 years after the event?

23        A.   What should I be watching it with?  I don't have a telephone or

24     anything.

25        Q.   I see.  Can we just go back, please, then, to the question that I

Page 2072

 1     was asking you before.

 2             I'm simply trying to get clear when you told the Prosecutor over

 3     two days that these men were alive when you left them at the lake, did

 4     you know, at that time, that what you were saying was false?

 5        A.   I've just explained to you that I was scared at the time, and I

 6     didn't dare mention ...

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, I'm going to intervene.  You have

 8     told us that.  What you're now telling us is an explanation why you told

 9     what you told to the investigator.  What you are now being asked is not

10     why you said it but whether you knew at the time when you made that

11     statement that what you were saying was not correct.

12             Now, the appropriate -- thank you so much.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             MR. EMMERSON:

15        Q.   If we turn to paragraph 18 you were asked why you had changed

16     your account between the interview on the 24th and the interview on the

17     25th.  And you said to the Prosecutors this.  You said:

18             "I was very reluctant to provide details to the ICTY with respect

19     to certain events.  I also had heard rumours that witnesses were killed

20     in relation to this trial and that ... therefore was worried about my and

21     my family's safety."

22             So is the position this, Witness, that you made a decision to

23     mislead the Prosecutor on the 23rd and 24th because you felt that that

24     would somehow keep you safer?  Is that what you're saying?

25        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean by that?

Page 2073

 1        Q.   Take it slowly.  You've accepted that when you told the

 2     Prosecutor on the 23rd and the 24th that the men were taken alive to the

 3     lake, you knew that what you told them was not true.  When you've been

 4     asked to explain why you told them something that you knew not to be

 5     true, you have said that you were afraid as your reason.

 6             What I'm trying to explore with you is this:  Did you then make a

 7     decision to mislead the Prosecutor over two days about this information

 8     because you thought that that would somehow make you safer?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Why would you -- having given an account, naming these

11     individuals for having cut off ears and taken out eyes, why would you be

12     safer to say that they had been taken alive to the lake?

13        A.   I've told you already where I was.  I know why I said it.  And

14     you yourself probably know why I did, why I didn't dare say.

15             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we please bring up doc ID 1D12-0229 and within

16     this document, please, page 20, which is 0248.

17        Q.   While this is it being brought up witness I just want you to

18     understand what it is we're looking at.  This is a note taken by the

19     Prosecutor, Mr. Rogers, during the course of your interview, writing down

20     exactly what you were saying as you were saying it.  This is what we call

21     a contemporary note of your interview with the Prosecutor.  I can see we

22     have still the statement on the screen which may be a little confusing.

23     I don't know if it's possible to remove the statement and focus only on

24     the manuscript text.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we have a typewritten transcript of the

Page 2074

 1     manuscript.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, we have a Defence-prepared typewritten

 3     transcript, but we thought it more appropriate to work from the

 4     unambiguous or authentic, original.  It's a small passage and I think it

 5     will be easy enough to follow.  Can we highlight, please, the -- is that

 6     the right page?  No, I'm sorry, it's not the right page.  It should be at

 7     the top, so it should be 0248.  No, sorry, not a rubber band.  The page

 8     number.  It should be 1D12-0248.

 9             Just looking at the number at the top, it may be there has been

10     some numerical cross-referencing error, but instead of 6294 the page

11     we're looking for is 6286, so it should be eight pages earlier in the

12     document.  It should be the 20th page.

13             Yes, and if we could just highlight the top passage above the

14     manuscript line.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, this is the note that was taken of what you were

16     saying whilst you were still, as you've told us, deliberately misleading

17     the Prosecutor about what happened to these men.

18             If I can just pick it up in the second line.  You say:

19             "It was very difficult to drag them to the place like that.  They

20     were tied, hands behind their back.  We had no proper cuffs.  We used

21     rope/wire."

22             Pausing there, did you tell Mr. Rogers that you used rope/wire?

23        A.   If I can answer this one right away.

24             He put many questions.  As I told you a moment ago, but

25     apparently you failed to understand me, let me tell you this clearly.  I

Page 2075

 1     gave a confusing answer because he would put one or two questions to me

 2     and then I would speak about what I remembered at that point.  If I said

 3     "we," well, I said so because I was there as a freshman, as a soldier

 4     just as my companions were.  I didn't mean that I was the one who did the

 5     tying or mistreating.

 6             I apologise if that sentence is --

 7        Q.   Can I just put an alternative suggestion to you.

 8             Mr. Rogers was asking you for detail about something that you

 9     knew you were lying about, i.e., that they were alive when they were

10     taken to the lake.  So Mr. Rogers was asking you, Well, if they were

11     alive when they were taken to the lake, how did they get there.  And you

12     then gave this description taking these live men to the lake saying, It

13     was very difficult to drag them to a place like that.  We used rope/wire.

14             You were giving details of a lie, weren't you?

15        A.   When you say "a lie," you are lying yourself.  I know what I

16     said.  I am aware of what I said.  So let me tell you that that's very

17     humiliating coming from you because you're lying at the point you're

18     saying it.

19        Q.   Let me avoid the word.  I'm sorry, that was careless.  You've

20     told us that you knew the account that you gave to Mr. Rogers about this

21     was not the truth.  And so he is asking you for details at this point of

22     how you could possibly have taken three live men 10 kilometres across

23     rough terrain and what the details were.  And this is you supplying false

24     information in detail, isn't it?

25        A.   I'm trying to tell you all this time where I was.  All this time.

Page 2076

 1     I'm trying to tell you where I was, in what location.  As a soldier of

 2     the KLA, you're in the middle of, and let me not mention where, and now

 3     how could you be able to speak freely?  Why don't you put yourself in my

 4     shoes and try and speak freely.  If somebody is present of their

 5     policemen, so how could you be able to speak up?

 6        Q.   I'm not asking for an explanation and it's a simple question.

 7     Yes or no.  This is you giving Mr. Rogers false details in support of an

 8     account you knew to be false, isn't it?

 9        A.   Sir, I apologise for having to say this to you again, but had you

10     been in my place then -- I'm not explaining.  I'm trying to give you an

11     answer.  I don't want explanations.  I don't want to be here for a long

12     time, for a year or however long you think I should be here.  I want to

13     return.  But it seems that you have a lot of time.  I am persistently

14     trying to give you an answer, but it seems that you are not understanding

15     it.

16             I am sorry for having to say this, but really you don't seem to

17     understand.  Why don't you spend some time as me, then perhaps you will

18     understand.  But it seems you don't have any sense of how it was.  But

19     you can say whatever you like.  It's easy for you.

20        Q.   Witness --

21             JUDGE HALL:  Mr. Witness, I'm sure I'm not the only one having

22     difficulty following what are you trying to tell the Chamber.

23             You would remember that when Mr. Emmerson began, he asked you to

24     listen carefully to the question and only answer the question.  And it is

25     a caution which the Presiding Judge has repeated.  I would remind you of

Page 2077

 1     that.  We -- you're anxious to get out of here as soon as possible.  It

 2     would assist if you would listen to the question and only answer the

 3     question that's asked.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:

 5        Q.   Which I'll ask it one final time to see if you can do that.

 6             When you said to Mr. Rogers, "It was very difficult to drag them

 7     to a place like that, we used rope/wire," you were giving him false

 8     details of an account that you knew to be false, weren't you?

 9        A.   Well, can I say this right away.  Are you saying or do you think

10     that I concealed something?  Because the question that you are putting,

11     you are putting in --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just -- stop just there.  Just stop there.  Stop

13     just there, stop just sir.  Stop just there, sir, please.

14             The question again is:  When you said to Mr. Rogers it was very

15     difficult to drag them to a place like that, we used rope/wire, you were

16     giving him false details of an account that you knew to be false, were

17     you not?

18             Your answer is:  No, I was not; or yes, I was.  One of those two.

19     Nothing else.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did know.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated]

22             MR. EMMERSON:

23        Q.   So you were prepared to make up detail; correct?

24        A.   No, that is not so.

25        Q.   Something happened, Witness, between the 24th, when you were

Page 2078

 1     still giving this account, and the 25th, when you started to say that the

 2     men were taken alive to a building and then taken dead to the lake.  What

 3     changed your mind?

 4        A.   I already explained that.  I will explain it again.

 5             The first time with the -- when you meet with The Hague

 6     Prosecutors, it's not easy.

 7             Second, again, I will explain, since you have to know that, where

 8     I was.  So I don't want to talk about fear and that anymore because that

 9     doesn't concern you.  You're just concerned with your own job.

10             I told you what I wanted to say, and I said it nicely.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Witness, Mr. Witness, the 25th, when you

12     changed your account in this respect, were you then at another place

13     compared to the 23rd and the 24th?  Were you in another place at that

14     time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, in another place.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Where were you at that moment?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we in private session?

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Where were you?  I don't ask you for the town.  I

20     ask you for the location.  You told us the 23rd and the 24th, we were in

21     those offices.  And now I'm asking you where were you on the 25th?  In

22     which offices were you?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In an office which I would not like

24     to mention in public.

25             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I think it's better that we go into


Page 2079

 1     private session if Your Honour is going to pursue this.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 2080

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

15             Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

16             MR. EMMERSON:

17        Q.   Did you come to realize during the course of this process that

18     the Office of the Prosecutor was going to go and look for the bodies that

19     you'd said that you'd dumped at the lake?

20        A.   Yes.  I was even willing to go there with him.  You can ask

21     Mr. Rogers that, if you want.  Had I been able to, when he told me that I

22     would be under their protection, had I been able to, and I said, Whenever

23     it is necessary to go there, I'm willing to go with you to show you.

24        Q.   Hmm.  And it's a matter of record, and I'm sure you know this,

25     that no bodies were found.


Page 2081

 1        A.   I don't know that.

 2        Q.   The question I want to ask you is:  How you knew, on the 23rd and

 3     24th, as is says in Mr. Rogers' notes, You won't find the bodies.

 4             How did you know that?

 5        A.   Sir, I will give you that answer as well.  I can see you're

 6     wanting to hear that.

 7             How?  Well, whoever is intelligent and knows that they will be

 8     brought to trial, why would they leave it in the same place?  Anybody

 9     facing trial before The Hague Tribunal, why would they leave the bodies

10     there having been previously acquitted of the first time.  So you tell

11     me.

12        Q.   The reason you knew there weren't going to be any bodies found is

13     because you never took any bodies to the lake, Witness, I suggest?

14        A.   You are stating what you are stating, and I'm asserting before

15     this Court that I am able to go, together with them, and to tell them

16     where these places are.  I am looking at the Trial Chamber, and I assert

17     with full responsibility that I am able to go there with them and to say

18     where this happened.

19        Q.   You've already done that, Witness.  You've done it twice, haven't

20     you?  Once to the Serbs, and once to the Office of the Prosecutor.

21     You've given the locations, in detail, on satellite maps where you say

22     that the bodies were.  Haven't you?

23        A.   I'm sorry?  What did I do?

24        Q.   You've already, on two separate occasions, marked in detail, on

25     satellite maps and photographs, exactly where it was that you claim that

Page 2082

 1     the bodies were left.  Haven't you?

 2        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 3        Q.   And you marked two completely different locations on each

 4     occasion, didn't you?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So we are clear with the question.

 6             Two completely different occasions on the --

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  On each occasion the location said to have been

 8     the place where the bodies were found was different.

 9        Q.   Correct?

10        A.   Well, perhaps you can see everything in the statement.  Perhaps

11     you did not read the whole statement.  It's about two places.  Listen to

12     me well:  One place is where we were escorted on our way back.  I'm

13     telling you clearly local -- the local soldier did not indicate that

14     place.

15             So I explained that to you.  I told you that nicely, but it seems

16     that you did not understand that properly.

17        Q.   What I'm suggesting to you is that you named two different

18     locations as the place where you say that the bodies were left.

19        A.   Well, I've just answered the question, sir.  You're not

20     listening.  You're just telling your own story.

21             I explained properly to Their Honours and to you.  You were all

22     here when I said that.  At one location, close to the lake, at the

23     entrance to it where the houses are -- perhaps I can rephrase it.  You

24     will remember the sentence better.  Close to the river, on the way back,

25     a local soldier told me that we threw them in there.  I told that to you

Page 2083

 1     very clearly.  I don't know if I can be any clearer than that.

 2             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we call up 65 ter 03125, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just the first:  What do you want to do, sir, with

 4     0229 and 0248.

 5             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm not tendering that, the documents there, it's

 6     read into the record.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:

 9        Q.   If we look on this map, can you see the -- I'm sorry, this

10     satellite photograph, can you see the red dotted line?

11        A.   Yes, I see that.

12        Q.   Now that was a map that was marked by a Prosecution investigator

13     on the 4th of July of this year, according to your instructions, to show

14     the route that you say that you took with these bodies; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And obviously we can see from the photograph that a large part of

17     the route that you say that you took crosses rough terrain.  That's

18     right, is it?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Across the top of mountains?

21        A.   As far as I know, no.

22        Q.   Well, I think one can see, can one not, from the photograph

23     itself that the very first section is right across the crest of a

24     mountain, according to you?

25        A.   Look, let me explain that as well.

Page 2084

 1             I'm not really that versed in maps, so I said approximately.  I

 2     was very clear in saying that I would indicate it approximately.  I would

 3     indicate the route approximately.

 4        Q.   Well, it's right, isn't it, that your route took you across

 5     fields and woodlands and that you didn't want to take the roads.  Isn't

 6     that what you said?

 7        A.   Well, in 1998, I don't know if it was possible to take the direct

 8     route because of the Serbian police and so on.  Of course, we didn't take

 9     the -- the direct route.

10        Q.   So you were carrying, you say this group of men were carrying

11     these bodies across rough terrain.  You agree with that?

12        A.   Sir, I think you mixed me up with that group when you said that.

13             We were escorted.  We were not carrying it.  So when you say "you

14     were carrying," we were not carrying it.  We were the escort.  I didn't

15     carry anything myself.

16        Q.   You and the other men you're not prepared to name.  You are

17     saying you were the escort?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   But it was a journey in which you told us, I think, 13 people

20     took part?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And it was a journey across rough terrain?

23        A.   I told you that we did not take the main road.  We took the

24     fields, some terrain that was a bit rocky.  Then --

25        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 2085

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, did you travel over mountains?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did cross a hill.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you about a hill.  I'm not asking

 4     you about the hill.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm asking you about a range of mountains.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I'm trying to say.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You see, your answer should either be yes or no.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did, of course.  Yes.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  And the mountains were rough.  It was

11     rough terrain?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.  There was no road.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, thank you.  Thank you.

14             MR. EMMERSON:

15        Q.   Just so that we have the picture, 13 men carrying three dead

16     bodies on stretchers across the mountains.  If I tell you that the

17     distance that you've marked on that map is 10 kilometres, does that sound

18     about right to you?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct, more or less, yes.

20        Q.   And how long do you say this took?

21        A.   I wasn't really timing anything.  I wasn't there to time the

22     thing.  I was just accompanying them.

23        Q.   You gave us an estimate on Tuesday.  You said it took about an

24     hour and a half or two hours; is that right or not?

25        A.   Well, I've told you I didn't measure the time.  I wasn't

Page 2086

 1     measuring the time.  I didn't have time to pay attention to time like you

 2     say.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we call up, please, 65 ter 3119.  I'm moving

 5     to a different topic.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you're not tendering this one?

 7             MR. EMMERSON:  I'm tendering that one, Your Honour, yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It is admitted.  May it please be given an exhibit

 9     number, under seal.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 03125 will be Exhibit D202, under

11     seal.

12             MR. EMMERSON:  The next one is already exhibited.  It's D201.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Registrar, did you say 202, or did you say

14     203?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  D202 under seal, Your Honours.

16             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we please turn to paragraph 22.

17        Q.   I'm just going to read these passages to you so that they're

18     there on the record and you have the full picture.

19             Paragraph 22, this is your witness statement again signed on the

20     8th of December.

21             "During the interview on the 24th of November, 2010, I stated

22     that I did not see any beating or mistreatment of prisoners on my second

23     visit to Jabllanice prison, and I also stated that I did not recall any

24     Serbian police officers or military officers being imprisoned in

25     Jabllanice."

Page 2087

 1             "However, later on during that same day, I was asked by OTP

 2     members if the name Nenad Remistar meant anything to me.  I said it did

 3     and stated that I had seen a policeman called Nenad who was kept prisoner

 4     in the prisoner in Jabllanice together with two other Serb prisoners

 5     [sic]."

 6             Then you give a description.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Other Serb police officers.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:  Did I say -- misread, I'm sorry.  I misspoke

 9     myself, "Serb police officers."

10             You then give a description.  And at paragraph 24 you say:

11             "I also stated that I witnessed Nenad being beaten by Maxhup with

12     a baseball bat during the interrogation."

13             So pausing there, this is your statement recording that, on the

14     24th of November, you told Mr. Rogers that you saw no ill-treatment or

15     beating on the second occasion, that you say that you went to Jabllanice,

16     and that you did not recall seeing any Serbian police officers or

17     military officers being imprisoned there, and you then later changed that

18     account and gave a description of an assault on a man called Nenad who

19     you say was a Serbian police officer; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, I'm just -- again, listen very carefully to my next question

22     because I don't want a long explanation from you at this point.

23             When you told Mr. Rogers that you did not see any Serbian police

24     officers or military officers being imprisoned in Jabllanice, did you

25     know that was not true?

Page 2088

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   You then give an explanation at paragraphs 25 and 26 where you

 3     say:

 4             "I'm being asked by the OTP members why I did mention this

 5     earlier in the interview when I asked about my knowledge about any police

 6     or military officers being detained at the prison in Jabllanice and

 7     whether or not I saw prisoners being beaten or mistreated."

 8             You say:

 9             "The reason was that I was reluctant to mention the presence of

10     Serbian police and military prisoners in the prison in Jabllanice because

11     I was very embarrassed to mention this in the presence of the Serbian

12     officials who are also present here today."

13             Do you see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now this change in your account between saying you saw nothing

16     and no policemen to saying that you saw beating of a policeman on the

17     second occasion, that change in your account happened within one

18     interview from what you said at the beginning of the interview to what

19     you said at the end.  Do you agree?

20        A.   I agree.

21        Q.   What changed, so far as you were concerned, then, that caused you

22     to change the account?

23        A.   Because, at the time, while we were talking, this Serbian

24     officer, whom you mentioned, was already outside with the Prosecutor.

25     Then Mr. Rogers and I and the interpreter had a conversation alone that

Page 2089

 1     lasted some two and a half hours.

 2        Q.   And are you suggesting then that something changed so far as the

 3     Serbian police officer was concerned?

 4        A.   I explained that to you.  It seems that you are not understanding

 5     me again.

 6             You asked me this.  Let me rephrase your question.  The reason

 7     why I was not willing to mention the Serbian soldier.  The reason was

 8     that the Serbian policemen were next to me when I gave the statement, and

 9     Serbian prosecutor.

10             Why did I change?  After Mr. Rogers and the interpreter had a

11     conversation with me by ourselves, which we had, and when I said why I

12     did not wish to tell these things.

13        Q.   Now, Witness, over the course of yesterday and today, you have

14     given us evidence about why you have changed your accounts, and you've

15     told us over and over again that it was because of your fear of the

16     Serbian police; correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   Now, you first gave an account about Jabllanice, I suggest, after

19     a lengthy series of interviews that you had had about another case with

20     Serbian police officials; is that right?

21             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I don't know where Mr. Emmerson is

22     going with this line of questioning, but it might be prudent to go into

23     private session for it just so no information that reveals the identity

24     of the witness is disclosed.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Emmerson.

Page 2090

 1             MR. EMMERSON:  I -- at the moment I don't see why that should

 2     happen, but it may be that we simply pursue this for the time being and

 3     if there is a situation in which anything may reveal the identity of the

 4     witness, then we can go into private session for that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You may proceed.

 6             MR. EMMERSON:

 7        Q.   You see, as I've understood the position, and correct me if I'm

 8     wrong, the first time you ever claimed to have seen anything at

 9     Jabllanice and gave an account of what you say took place at Jabllanice,

10     was in the course of the interview you gave to the Office of the

11     Prosecutor; is that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That, we know, took place from the 23rd of November, onwards.  By

14     that time, you had been interviewed by Serb police and a Serb prosecutor

15     about another case, hadn't you?

16             MS. KRAVETZ:  Your Honour, I would ask that we go into private

17     session.  Already, I think that question, the way it was put can be

18     problematic, so I would, just for prudence, go into private session for

19     this part of the questioning.

20             MR. EMMERSON:  Well, I'm anxious that as much of this should be

21     on the public record as is appropriate.  I obviously don't want anything

22     that may involve the identification of the witness in public session.  So

23     I'm in Your Honours' hands, at the moment the question is one which has

24     been phrased in a way which does not elict any information that might

25     identify the witness, but I'm in Your Honours' hands.

Page 2091

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let the witness answer the question and let's see

 2     how it goes.

 3             MR. EMMERSON:  Perhaps I should repeat my question.

 4        Q.   By the time you were interviewed by officials from the Office of

 5     the Prosecutor, you had been interviewed by a Serb police officer and a

 6     prosecutor about another case, hadn't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You knew the Serb police officer very well, didn't you?

 9        A.   What do you mean by that, "knew him very well"?

10        Q.   Knew her very well.  By the time you met the Prosecutors in this

11     case, you had been interviewed more than 23 times, hadn't you, by the

12     same team about that other case?

13        A.   In connection with some other case.  This is of no concern of

14     yours.  Are you trying to compromise me?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just -- just hold on, sir.  The answer is yes or

16     no.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was interviewed on a number of

18     occasions, and it didn't have anything to do with this.  I don't know

19     exactly how many times.

20             MR. EMMERSON:

21        Q.   Well, if our records show that you were interviewed 23 times by

22     the same team, would you accept that that sounds accurate?

23        A.   I think that's excessive, the number you've given.  It's not true

24     that I met with them 23 times.

25        Q.   Very well.  If you think it's excessive, please give us your


Page 2092

 1     estimate of the number of times that you met this police officer?

 2        A.   On this specific case?

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 4        A.   Not -- on no occasion.

 5        Q.   On the other case.

 6             MS. KRAVETZ:  The witness has answered the question.  He --

 7     line -- first line of page 28 he says I don't know exactly how many

 8     times.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He is challenging the estimate by the lawyer.

10     He's asked to say if he thinks that is excessive, he must say what he

11     thinks the correct -- what is likely to be correct.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On a couple of occasions.  I didn't

13     keep count.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What would be a couple, sir.  Can you give a

15     number to the word "couple"?  In English parlance, "couple" means twice.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Seven or eight times.

17             MR. EMMERSON:

18        Q.   I'm going to ask to go into private session just to name the

19     officers concerned so that the witness knows who it is we're speaking

20     about without any doubt at all.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2093

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

23             Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

24             MR. EMMERSON:

25        Q.   Witness, you say seven or eight times the police officer has made


Page 2094

 1     a statement in this case detailing the number of occasions on which you'd

 2     met and on which you had been interviewed about that other case by the

 3     police officer and the prosecutor.  In total, I suggest again you had

 4     been interviewed 23 times between June and September 2010, over a

 5     three-month period?

 6        A.   I told you that I didn't keep count.  I said several times.  I

 7     really don't know how many.

 8        Q.   See, you trust the police officer, don't you?

 9        A.   Well, when I was going through the roughest of periods, she was

10     there for me to help me, so I trust her.

11        Q.   And when was that?

12        A.   That was last year.

13        Q.   Before you spoke to the Office of the Prosecutor.

14        A.   Long, long before.

15        Q.   Long, long before that, you'd built up this relationship of trust

16     with this Serbian police officer who was there for you in the hardest of

17     times; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So much so, in fact, that at a meeting in July of this year about

20     you coming to this court to give evidence, you told the Prosecutor that

21     you wanted both the prosecutor and the police officer to travel with you,

22     because they were the only people you trusted; right?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   And yet the explanation that you've repeatedly given us over and

25     over and over again for the last two days for the changes in the accounts


Page 2095

 1     that you've given to the Office of the Prosecutor over 23rd, 24th, 25th

 2     and 26th of November was that you were afraid of the police, the Serb

 3     police, and the Serb prosecutor; is that right?

 4        A.   They are not the entire Serbian police.  They are individuals.

 5     Serbia is big.  They're not the whole Serbia.  If I trust one person,

 6     that doesn't necessarily apply to the entire Serbia.

 7        Q.   They were the ones who were with you during the interviews,

 8     weren't they, Witness, that you say you were afraid of?

 9        A.   That is what I said, sir, that I was afraid.  I didn't say I was

10     afraid of them.  Don't put words in my mouth.

11             We had that interview, and then, after that, after that, where

12   (redacted.)

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2096











11 Pages 2096-2097 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2098

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2099

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             We'll take a break and come back at quarter to.

 8             Court adjourned.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into closed session.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2100

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Mr. Emmerson.

12             MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, in the light of the matters that were

13     raised and resolved, as I understand it, in private session, I propose to

14     ask some questions that relate to the location of interviews in open

15     session unless anybody has any objection.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

17             MS. KRAVETZ:  I don't mind if, in light of the discussion we've

18     already had, that the location is revealed, but if any names are

19     mentioned, I would ask that we do that in private session, and I'm sure

20     Mr. Emmerson intended to do that as well.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much, Ms. Kravetz.

22             MR. EMMERSON:

23        Q.   Witness, during the course of this morning, I've asked you a

24     series of questions about the changes in your account that took place

25     between the 23rd and 26th of November.  You have testified that the


Page 2101

 1     reason for the changes was because, first of all, the location changed so

 2     that your fear was different; and, secondly, that you had private

 3     meetings with the Offices of the Prosecutor in the absence of the Serb

 4     police officer and prosecutor.  That's the evidence that you've given to

 5     us this morning.

 6             Those answers were not true, were they?

 7        A.   What do you mean, the answers were not true?  Can you explain

 8     that?

 9        Q.   Yes.  You were lying.

10        A.   I was lying.  It boils down again to the same thing.  You are

11     really an impertinent, though educated, man, but you are brazen when you

12     say that I'm a liar.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, you see, we have asked Mr. Emmerson

14     not to use that word, but if when he uses a respectful word, you then ask

15     him what do you mean, what else do you expect him to say?

16             You know what it means to say you are not telling the truth.

17     Don't you understand that?  [Microphone not activated].

18             I'm going to say it again because my Mike was off.  Do you

19     understand the question:  When you said this, you knew this was not true?

20     You don't need an explanation of that question, don't you?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in all due respect for

22     the Court and everyone, he has called me a liar on a number of occasions.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not talking about the number of occasions.

24     You see, listen to the question and answer the question that is put to

25     you.  I'm talking to you about this time that he is now calling you

Page 2102

 1     saying that you are lying.

 2             He said first to you when you said that, Well, you told us what

 3     you told us before the break, you knew that was not true.  And you asked

 4     him:  What do you mean by that.  Didn't you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What question?  I wasn't asking him

 6     about that.  I'm sorry, but perhaps he didn't understand me.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Anyway -- anyway, fine.  I realize you are

 8     deliberately making sure that you don't want to understand what I'm

 9     talking about.  Now I'm saying to you he justifiably called you a liar

10     this time around, okay?

11             MR. EMMERSON:

12        Q.   Witness, let's be clear so that you understand exactly what I'm

13     asking you, you gave evidence this morning about the reasons for all the

14     changes in your account to the Prosecutor between the 23rd and the 26th

15     of November, 2011 [sic].

16             You remember giving those answers?

17        A.   Yes, I do remember.

18        Q.   And you told us that the reason why you were prepared to change

19     your account was because you were no longer as afraid in the later

20     interviews as you had been in the earlier interviews, didn't you?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   And you explained that the location of the interviews was

23     important to you and that the location had changed, didn't you?

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   And you even told us about an occasion in some detail when you

Page 2103

 1     were on your own with the Prosecutor, Mr. Rogers, and he gave you lots of

 2     reassurance about how it was okay for you to tell the whole truth, didn't

 3     you?

 4        A.   That's right.

 5        Q.   I'm going to read to you now an official agreed statement of fact

 6     which comes from the prosecutors who were there during those interviews,

 7     okay?

 8             "The interview with Witness 81 between the 23rd and the 26th of

 9     November, 2010 was conducted at the Serbian gendarmerie building in

10     Belgrade.  At no point during the interview that was conducted between

11     the 23rd and the 26th of November, 2010 were Prosecution officials in the

12     presence of the witness without either the female police officer or the

13     male prosecutor present."

14             Now why, please, did you tell us this morning that the location

15     of the buildings had changed and you'd had private conversations with the

16     Prosecutor?

17        A.   When I said that the place changed, I said quite clearly that it

18     was a different place.  And when I say that I and Mr. Rogers had this

19     conversation in the presence of an interpreter, then that's what I mean.

20     You can bring Mr. Rogers here, and I will look you in the eye and tell

21     you how it happened.

22             So I stand but what I said.

23        Q.   I don't need to bring Mr. Rogers here because he's already made

24     this formal statement that what you've told us is a lie, is not the

25     truth.


Page 2104

 1        A.   Well, you're calling me that again.

 2        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 3        A.   Well, you have the right to do that.  But why wouldn't you bring

 4     him here so that I -- we could see eye to eye and I can tell him ...

 5             What right do I have?  It seems I have no rights whatsoever here.

 6        Q.   The reality, Witness 81, is that these were untruths that you

 7     made up in the course of your evidence in an attempt to explain

 8     inexplicable changes in your account?

 9        A.   That's not true, Mr. Lawyer.  What you're saying is not true.

10     And I don't know why you are treating me this way, like I'm a criminal,

11     though you did call me one already.  I've only come here to disclose one

12     truth, and it is not in your interest that I do that.  And you are not

13     concerned at all about the fact that I will have to go back (redacted)

14   (redacted).

15             But, again, you are not interested in that because it is not your

16     head, your body, or your family that is at stake.  It is mine.  Well, I

17     will give all credit to you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2105

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.

 7             Yes, Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

 8             MR. EMMERSON:

 9        Q.   I'm going to give you one last chance to review and correct your

10     evidence on this issue.

11             You have told us that the reason why your accounts have changed

12     is because initially you were afraid of the Serbian officials who were

13     present but later when you spoke in private with Mr. Rogers, he reassured

14     you and you felt able to tell the truth whole.

15             That account, I suggest, is not true, and I'm going to give you

16     one last opportunity to tell the truth.

17        A.   I am claiming, yet again, that that is the truth and the whole

18     truth.  I had that conversation with Mr. Rogers, and if I can quote his

19     words when we signed a paper that we had to sign, he said:  "From this

20     point on, you are under our protection and nobody, and when say I

21     'nobody,' I mean nobody can lay their finger on you."

22        Q.   So now let us look about -- at your explanation of fear of

23     telling the truth in front of the Serbian officials.

24             You told us before the break that before you met Mr. Rogers, long

25     before, you had a relationship of close trust with the female police

Page 2106

 1     officer.  That's right, isn't it?

 2        A.   That is correct.

 3        Q.   In relation to the other case that you were interviewed about on

 4     many occasions in her presence, it's right, isn't it, that it was you

 5     yourself who first approached the Serbian police to give an account?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   Were you afraid then of the Serbian police when you made the

 8     decision to approach them yourself?

 9        A.   Yes.  The same, just as it is now.  Of course, I was afraid.

10             MR. EMMERSON:  Can we go into private session, please,

11     Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May the Chamber please move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 2107











11 Pages 2107-2120 redacted. Private session.
















Page 2121

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10   (redacted)

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16   (redacted)

17                           [Closed session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Take a break and come back when we are called.


Page 2122

 1             Court adjourned.

 2                            --- Break taken at 11.36 a.m.

 3                            --- On resuming at 11.57 a.m.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The Chamber has been informed that the witness is

 5     not in a position to continue for the rest of the day, so it looks like

 6     we are going to have to adjourn at this point to tomorrow.

 7             Court adjourned.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.58 a.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of

10                           November, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.