Page 2605
1 Friday, 20 April 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 (redacted)
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning to everybody in and around the
6 courtroom, and up -- out there in The Hague.
7 Mr. Registrar, please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is case number IT-04-84bis-T, the Prosecutor versus
10 Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
13 Could we have appearances for the day, please, starting with the
14 Prosecution.
15 MR. ROGERS: Yes. Good morning, Your Honours. And good
16 afternoon in The Hague. Paul Rogers and Aditya Menon appearing for the
17 Prosecution in the remote location; and Ms. Priya Gopalan,
18 Daniela Kravetz, and our Case Manager Line Pedersen in The Hague.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
20 And for Mr. Haradinaj's Defence.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Good morning, Your Honour. Ben Emmerson for
22 Ramush Haradinaj, together with Rod Dixon, Annie O'Reilly, and
23 Andrew Strong in the remote location; and Kerrie Rowan in The Hague.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, Mr. Emmerson.
25 And for Mr. Balaj.
Page 2606
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Good morning. Gregor Guy-Smith and Colleen Rohan
2 on behalf of Mr. Balaj in the remote location; present in The Hague are
3 Gentian Zyberi and Holly Buchanan.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 And for Mr. Brahimaj.
6 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Your Honours. Richard Harvey and
7 Luke Boenisch here together in the remote location; and in The Hague,
8 Mr. Paul Troop and Sylvie Kinabo. Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
10 May the Chamber please move into closed session.
11 [Closed session]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
24 session.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much, madam.
Page 2607
1 Good morning, Mr. Witness.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to remind you, and I know you know this
4 already by now, but I must just remind you that you're still bound by the
5 declaration you made at the beginning of your testimony to tell the
6 truth, the whole truth, and nothing else but the truth. Remember?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I will tell the truth,
8 Your Honours.
9 WITNESS: 80 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith: [Continued]
15 Q. I'd like to initially start by setting the stage of what was
16 occurring in Kosovo and specifically in your area so that we can have an
17 appreciation of some of the tensions that existed.
18 And if I understand the testimony that you've given thus far,
19 there was, in the month of May, a series of assaults by the Serbian
20 forces against villages in Kosovo, in general, and against your village
21 in specific. True?
22 A. Yes, that's true.
23 Q. And with regard to the intensity of the attack that you were
24 experiencing, your village had been shelled repeatedly. True?
25 A. During the time of the attacks on my village, yes. I mean the
Page 2608
1 two days of the attacks.
2 Q. Understood. Now, the reality of the situation was, at that time
3 when your village was being attacked, that you had, as a village, very
4 few weapons; correct?
5 A. We did have some weapons that had been bought before, before the
6 war started.
7 Q. Again, very few.
8 A. We had some weapons that we had bought with our own money before
9 the war started.
10 Q. Understood. My question is the number of weapons. You didn't
11 have enough weapons to arm all of the able-bodied fighting men in your
12 village, did you?
13 A. No, there weren't.
14 Q. The Serbs, on the other hand, had soldiers, all armed, all
15 trained, with heavy weapons, including obviously tanks, bombs, grenade
16 launchers. Apart from guns. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And they were an organised force, weren't they? And by that I
19 mean the Serbian forces.
20 A. Yes, they were organised.
21 Q. And your village, on the other hand, you did not enjoy such
22 organisation; correct?
23 A. No, we didn't have any such organisation. We could -- you could
24 not equate our organisation with the Serb forces. Serbia was a state, a
25 country, with a hundred years of experience. The whole world knows that.
Page 2609
1 We were not equals. We were not equals with that state.
2 Q. Understood. And thank you -- thank you for that.
3 At that time - and by "at that time" for this part of our
4 discussion, sir, I'm referring to the month of May - you were a member of
5 the LDK; correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct. Not only at that time, but I was a member
7 even ten years earlier.
8 Q. And after the war you remained a member of the LDK; correct? And
9 by "after the war," I'm referring to 1998.
10 A. Even today.
11 Q. And you personally had regular meetings with a gentleman by the
12 name of Rugova on Fridays, did you not?
13 A. Not every Friday.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I did have meetings, but not every Friday.
16 Q. And when I -- I mentioned the name Rugova, obviously from the
17 speed of your answer and the content of your answer, you know who I'm
18 referring to. But for purposes of the record, I realise I may have moved
19 a bit quickly.
20 So could you tell us who Rugova -- the Rugova that you were
21 meeting with was?
22 A. He was the president of the Democratic League of Kosovo before
23 the war. After the war, he was president of Kosovo. And I did have
24 contacts with him.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just so the record is clear: Is it so that the
Page 2610
1 LDK that you referred to is the Democratic League of Kosovo that the
2 witness is referring to?
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: You beat me to the punch, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon?
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: You beat me to the punch.
6 Q. So if you could answer His Honour's question, I would appreciate
7 it. I'm sure we all would.
8 A. Your Honour, the Democratic League of Kosovo was lead by
9 Dr. Ibrahim Rugova.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. We understand that. But the
11 abbreviation LDK refers to the Democratic League of Kosovo, does it?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
17 Q. You had occasion to meet with the Prosecutor, and by that I mean
18 Mr. Rogers, on the 15th of December, 2010, in The Hague, did you not?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And at the time that you met with Mr. Rogers, you were
21 tape-recorded; correct?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know whether they recorded it or not. I
23 can't say anything.
24 Q. At that --
25 MR. ROGERS: I don't know whether it helps: It was recorded.
Page 2611
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much, Mr. Rogers.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Would you like to take the stand, Mr. Rogers?
3 MR. ROGERS: Just making an admission.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: It might make things go quicker.
5 I'm trying to decide which bundle to use, that's all.
6 Q. If you could refer to the bundle that's in front of you, sir, and
7 specifically refer to 03075. If you could open to that document. And I
8 would like --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be tab number 6 in your binders,
10 Your Honour. And I'm going to refer -- yes. Tab number 6. And I would
11 refer the Court and counsel to page 7, the bottom of the page, the last
12 four lines.
13 Q. And I'd ask you to go to page 7. Again, the last four lines.
14 My first question is for you to tell us when you've had an
15 opportunity to read -- to finish reading those lines, that you indicate
16 that you have.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On the 15th of December, 2010, you were asked the following
19 question, and you gave the following answers to Mr. Rogers; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. "Mr. Rogers: Go on --"
22 MR. ROGERS: In fact, it's not my initials, it's Ms. Gopalan.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, I'm sorry. I do apologise.
24 MR. ROGERS: It's all right.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH:
Page 2612
1 Q. Your response: "And I was in meetings every Friday with the
2 leader Ibrahim Rugova."
3 That's what you said; right?
4 A. Yes. I said it was not on every Friday. What I meant was that I
5 met him on Fridays but I also met him on other days. But the main
6 meetings were on Fridays.
7 Q. Okay. So you met him more than every Friday?
8 A. Maybe yes.
9 Q. I'm a bit concerned about your qualification of "maybe."
10 If you have met him every Friday, as you've indicated in your
11 answer to the Prosecution, and you indicate that met him more than every
12 Friday, or on other days, then you met him on more occasions; correct?
13 So there wouldn't be a "maybe" there. That would be a definite yes.
14 A. Please, I gave my answer to you.
15 Q. And I've asked you another question, sir, and I would appreciate
16 an answer.
17 MR. ROGERS: Well, Your Honour, I think, in respect, the witness
18 has answered the question. The passage was put to him, he agreed that
19 that is what it says and what appears to have been said during the course
20 of the interview. He then went on to give an explanation about that.
21 Where he elicited further information. And Mr. Guy-Smith is pursuing him
22 now into the frequency of meetings. I think Your Honours have a
23 sufficient understanding of the frequency of meetings. It's not
24 necessary to continue to pursue this line of questioning.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Whether or not Mr. --
Page 2613
1 MR. ROGERS: Asked and answered.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Whether or not Mr. Rogers believes this to be a
3 good place or not, that the pursuit of the frequency of meetings is quite
4 distinct from the issue of whether or not the witness answers questions
5 or not. And I'm looking for an answer to a question. I believe unless
6 the question forms -- as formed has a legal objection as a basis, the
7 question should be answered.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, will you answer the question, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The meetings
10 were very frequent.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH:
12 Q. And those meetings occurred where, sir?
13 A. They were held in Prishtina.
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 Q. I'm going to turn our attention to another matter now, sir.
25 (redacted)
Page 2614
1 (redacted), I'm going -- oh, excuse me. Because of the sensitivity of the
2 witness's stated concerns, and we need a redaction.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: May we go into private session.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'd like to go into private session.
5 [Private session]
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2615
1
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11 Page 2615 redacted. Private session.
12
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24
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Page 2616
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
3 session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am.
5 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, thank you so much.
7 Mr. Registrar, if you could do me the kindness of giving this
8 bundle to the witness.
9 I previously showed this to Mr. Rogers in an attempt to expedite.
10 Q. If you could -- you're moving a little too quickly there.
11 Sir, you're moving a bit quickly. If you could concern yourself
12 with tab 5.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: And that would be tab 5 for you as well,
14 Your Honours.
15 Q. You're at the wrong tab, sir. 5.
16 You had occasion (redacted), to meet
17 with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, did you not?
18 A. I don't know what they were.
19 Q. Okay. You had occasion to meet with a gentleman by the name of
20 Ole Lehtinen and another individual by the name of
21 Philippe Valleries-Roland?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. At that time -- if could you go to paragraph 17, please.
24 Right before you read that -- Witness, right before you read
25 that, you've rendered a number of opinions in this courtroom during these
Page 2617
1 proceedings. You've given us your opinion about a number of things;
2 correct?
3 A. Yes. All the things that happened, I told you about them.
4 Q. And -- as -- as I understand, you take full responsibility for
5 your words and your opinions; correct?
6 A. Yes. I can also document the things that I've said here.
7 Q. Thank you. You told the two individuals that we just mentioned
8 that, and I quote: (redacted)
9 (redacted).
10 And then you go on:
11 "I would be surprised if he ever had the courage to be a witness
12 in The Hague for what he endured during the war, but if he did, I think
13 he would be a good witness."
14 That's what you told him; right?
15 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I apologise, the copy before this gentleman
16 is in English, not in his native Albanian.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, okay, I'll give him a copy in Albanian.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's just behind it.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: It should be just behind it. But right before we
20 get to that, okay, and I do appreciate, of course, that he has a right to
21 information in whatever language he prefers.
22 Q. You speak English, do you not, sir?
23 A. [In English] Yes.
24 Q. And you read English?
25 A. [In English] Yes.
Page 2618
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted).
3 A. [In English] Yes.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. ROGERS: Your honours, that's two things. One is the name --
6 can we go into private session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we move into private session, please.
8 May we move into private session, please.
9 [Private session]
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2619
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
3 session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Guy-Smith, before you proceed, can you provide the people in
6 The Hague --
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- with correct identification of the documents so
9 that they can pull them up on the screen.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that document number would be 1D15-0094.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. And I'll -- since I did, in fact, err, let me ask the question
14 again. You stated that:
15 "I would be surprised if he," referring to your travelling
16 companion, "ever had the courage to be a witness in The Hague for what he
17 endured during the war, but if he did, I think he would be a good
18 witness."
19 That's what you said; correct?
20 A. [Interpretation] Correct. If he told the truth, yes. To my
21 recollection, he hasn't spoken the truth.
22 Q. I see. Have you been following these proceedings?
23 A. No, I didn't follow the proceeding, but I heard from some people
24 close to me, a relative -- relatives of mine --
25 If it's possible, I would like to move into private session,
Page 2620
1 please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
3 [Private session]
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
16 session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, ma'am.
18 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I will be referring now to information that's
20 contained in tab 49. We will be spending some time there, I believe.
21 Q. Your --
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, document number for The Hague,
23 please.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: The document number for the The Hague would be
25 1D15-0332. That's where the document begins. And I thank you for the
Page 2621
1 reminder.
2 Q. Your travelling companion was, as -- as you have told us you
3 were, a member of the LDK; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And he was the LDK representative for a number of villages;
6 correct?
7 A. No. Only -- he was responsible only for our village. His
8 brother covered several villages.
9 Q. (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 Q. In your village, the KLA established a presence sometime in the
13 month of April. April/May. Correct? Of 1998. I'm referring now to
14 1998.
15 A. In May.
16 Q. And in your village there are a number of members of the KLA who
17 lived in your village, such as --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: And now I'm not sure if we should go into private
19 session or not. So rather than be -- upset Mr. Rogers or anyone else,
20 may we move into private session.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2622
1
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6
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11 Pages 2622-2624 redacted. Private session.
12
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Page 2625
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
7 session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
9 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
11 Q. And I think it's fair to say that around the (redacted) the Serb
12 forces launched an attack on your village; correct?
13 A. Before the (redacted).
14 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me put the question to you a different way,
15 then.
16 Around the (redacted), apart from what you said, an attack was
17 launched on your village; correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. While that attack was being launched, the women and children of
20 the village were evacuated. Makes sense. Responsible thing to do.
21 A. Yes. We withdrew them.
22 Q. And what was left in the village were about 60 men defending your
23 village; correct?
24 A. Approximately. I don't know exact number, but there were some
25 people.
Page 2626
1 Q. Well, does the number 60 seem, to you, to be about the right
2 number? Maybe a couple fewer, maybe a couple more, but roughly the right
3 number?
4 MR. ROGERS: He said approximately, which would appear to be a
5 rough number.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay, fine. Is that an objection?
7 MR. ROGERS: Yes, because it's asked and answered.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
9 MR. ROGERS: You're asking him to speculate on --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I take your -- I take your point.
11 Q. In the evening, you left your village with your travelling
12 companion; correct? And others, admittedly. But you were with your
13 travelling companion.
14 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. And a number of -- of villagers - and those are, from what I
16 understand from your testimony, the men who had been attempting to defend
17 your village - travelled together up to the area of (redacted); right?
18 A. Some stayed in (redacted). Some went on towards (redacted),
19 passing through the (redacted). Not all of them stayed in (redacted).
20 Q. And the ones that went on towards (redacted) included yourself
21 and your travelling companion; right?
22 A. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. And you made a suggestion, because you knew somebody, about
24 what an ultimate good location would be. And you suggested to your
25 travelling companion that you should go to a particular village; right?
Page 2627
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And you arrived at that village late in the evening; right?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Just for the record, can I kindly ask
4 counsel to turn off his microphone while witness is answering questions.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise, Mr. Registrar. Thank you.
6 Q. You arrived in that village late that evening; correct?
7 A. Yes. Before we arrived at the village, at the (redacted) we
8 met some people whose names I have constantly referred to you during my
9 testimony.
10 Q. Is my understanding that it's your position that the village,
11 comment of the village, should be in private session?
12 Okay. Could we go into private session.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2628
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can we please ask
4 for a minute. The court reporter here seems to have a technical
5 difficulty.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just hold it, Mr. Witness. We've got a problem
7 out there.
8 And while that problem is being attended to, may I say,
9 Mr. Guy-Smith, when you say "we'll get to that, we'll get to that" in
10 that aggressive manner, because already the -- interpreted talking, poor
11 lady, and let her finish. And once she has finished, then you can say we
12 will get to that.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: She couldn't stop. She had to finish what she had
15 heard.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Unfortunately I don't have the freedom to be
17 listening in both languages. And those of you who are in the booth,
18 accept my heartfelt apologies. If I'm speaking too quickly or I'm
19 speaking too loudly, please let me know. I'm more than happy to be
20 scolded.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we have technical problems with
22 transcript, so we should stop speaking. If you wish this part to be a
23 part of public record.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Should we take the break now so that we ... okay.
25 Then we won't.
Page 2629
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can the witness say
2 "testing" or "1, 2, 3" so that we can just try it.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, can you just say "test, test, test,"
4 into your microphone.
5 THE WITNESS: Test, test, test.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Test, test, test.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we be heard? Can he -- is the witness being
8 heard out there in The Hague?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I think.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, just a second. We
11 hear the witness, but the interpreter is to low, so ...
12 THE INTERPRETER: I can hear the witness.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah, but what is too low?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] The interpretation of the witness
15 does not get clearly through to the court reporter.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I can hear you, Madam Interpreter, but I don't
18 know whether Madam Registrar out there can hear you.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We also hear the Registrar
20 in The Hague twice.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh. Must be a bit of a problem.
22 [Technical difficulty]
23 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can we once again
24 test the witness, if he can say -- [Microphone not activated] ...
25 THE INTERPRETER: Test, test, test. Can you hear me? Test.
Page 2630
1 THE WITNESS: Test, test, test.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Test, test, test.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you hear that, Madam Registrar?
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I can. But the
5 court reporter still seems to have the same problem.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if we might revisit the suggestion
7 of rising at this stage. I only say that because, of course, we're
8 sitting an hour early. We've taken the first hour, which is our extra
9 hour, and I think if we were to take a break now, we would then fall into
10 line with the one-and-a-quarter-hour slots that ...
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was going to -- I was thinking of that, too.
12 Madam Registrar, do you need a break to be able to attend to this
13 problem?
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I'm advised by the
15 technician that we don't need a break. But we need to adjust the volume
16 or the system, as far as I understand.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: And who does that?
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] There is a technician attending
19 the court reporter in the courtroom, Your Honour.
20 Okay, Your Honours, can we try once again.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, can you say again "test, test, test."
22 THE WITNESS: Test, test, test.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Test, test, test.
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, that seems to be
25 better.
Page 2631
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that okay? Okay. We'll then carry on.
2 Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, could you admonish the witness that when a
4 question isn't before him, he really shouldn't be reading the statements.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Mr. Witness, yes, you have been given
6 documents before you, but don't read them unless and only when you are
7 referred to them. Okay? Just concentrate on answering the questions of
8 the lawyer.
9 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: We're good?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you still want to stay in private session, sir?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I'd like to go into open session.
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, for the record, we
23 are in open session.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH:
Page 2632
1 Q. You had mentioned while we were in private session that you had
2 gone to (redacted); correct? On your way to the village that we
3 discussed.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in (redacted) you were with your travelling companion;
6 correct? I'm sorry -- yes, you were with your travelling companion;
7 correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Referring Court and counsel to page 7422,
10 lines 12 through 23.
11 Q. Your travelling companion was asked the following questions, gave
12 the following responses, concerning the interaction that you have
13 discussed previously in your testimony here. I'd like you to hear what
14 he had to say, and then I have some questions to ask you.
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2633
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 I'd like to stop there for just a moment and revisit some of the
9 discussion that we had at the outset of this session in which you told us
10 that there were not a sufficient number of weapons for the defence of
11 your village.
12 And my question to is that this was a general problem, was it
13 not, at the time, a sufficient number of weapons in order to defend or
14 repel the Serb advances?
15 A. Please. This was the second time we were stopped at
16 Jabllanice --
17 Q. I'm sorry, if you would keep my question in mind. Because my
18 question deals with the adequacy of weaponry that you had.
19 A. I said earlier that we could not measure up with the enemy.
20 We -- there were not enough weapons to go around.
21 MR. ROGERS: Before the next question is put, can we just go into
22 private session, please. Sorry.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 2634
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2634-2638 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2639
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 [Closed session]
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2640
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
6 session.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
8 We'll take a break and come back at ten to 10.00.
9 Court adjourned.
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
13 [Closed session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
22 session.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honours, could we move into private session,
Page 2641
1 please.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
3 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
4 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in private
5 session.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
7 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH:
9 Q. Yes. An "oda" is a particular room in many Kosovar Albanian
10 homes, is it not?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us what an "oda" is?
13 A. The "oda" is a room used by men. Males.
14 Q. It's a room used by men to drink coffee, rakija, sing songs, and
15 discuss matters of importance; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2642
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2642-2651 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2652
1 (redacted).
2 Q. Are you talking the position, then, that those statements made by
3 your travelling companion are not true?
4 A. Because of my proximity in terms of relationship with him, I
5 can't say that these are lies. But I'm telling you that he has not
6 described the reality as it was, as it really was. Some things need to
7 be cleared up. But that's his business, whether he wanted to speak the
8 truth or not. That's none of my business. He will be held responsible
9 for not -- if not speaking the truth. I am telling you what I know, what
10 I saw.
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2653
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2653-2655 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2656
1 (redacted).
2 Q. You have told us about an incident that you claim occurred in
3 which a young man's ear was cut off; right?
4 A. Yes. I mentioned it several times. And I am here to testify --
5 I can testify about it.
6 Q. You told us that -- you told us that when the ear -- I'm sorry.
7 You told the Prosecutor, in a previous statement that you made --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Referring Court and counsel to tab 1.
9 Q. Which would be, for purposes of your situation, 03046.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's tab 1 for you.
11 Q. And if you could go to paragraph 15.
12 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, should we be in open session?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Why? We may have to -- something may come that
14 will have to be in private session. I thought you wanted it all in
15 private. Do I detect an attempted advantage here of some sort?
16 MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated] ... no. No, no, no, we --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If he wishes to go in open session, I'll go into
18 open session.
19 MR. ROGERS: We've moved away from --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- from the village.
21 MR. ROGERS: -- the contentious areas --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let's go into open --
23 MR. ROGERS: -- the village in the statements. That's the issue.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I'm happy to be in open session. I always
25 prefer open session.
Page 2657
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I was surprised you were so
2 resistant all of a sudden.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I was trying to accommodate Mr. Rogers.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
7 session.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. You said the following concerning what you claim you saw:
11 "When the ear fell down on the ground, it was vibrating in the
12 dust, as a butterfly when you drop it in the dust and it tries to get out
13 from it."
14 Right?
15 A. Yes, that's what I said. That was what I experienced. I don't
16 know how other people viewed it or experienced it. But, for me, it was
17 horrible.
18 Q. Thank you. You had an opportunity to view a number of
19 photographs, did you not? And that's the photographs with regard to
20 potential alleged victims in this case.
21 Do you remember doing that?
22 A. No, I didn't see those photos.
23 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you the question, then, as follows:
24 Do you recall on --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Referring Court and counsel to tab 11, which is
Page 2658
1 1D15-1519. And I'm referring to paragraph number 4.
2 Q. Do you recall, on the (redacted), meeting with an
3 investigator by the name of Lorenzo Quiroz, also present was
4 Mr. Lehtinen, and at that time you were shown a number of photographs?
5 A. Please. If they showed me any photographs, they were not
6 photographs of victims, but other photographs. I can't say what
7 photographs they were. I can't remember.
8 Q. There's an indication that there was a note that you were shown
9 several photographs. You were shown a photograph of --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I seem to have a problem with the
12 tab numbers.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Tab 11?
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Tab 11 gives me something else that my
15 colleague has.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: May I approach?
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, of course.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may approach the Bench, sir.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
20 [Trial Chamber and Mr. Guy-Smith confer]
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay?
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes. Thank you.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. There's an indication that you'd been shown several photographs.
25 You were shown a photograph of Ivan Zaric. After examining it closely,
Page 2659
1 you state confidently that you have seen the man and the face is
2 familiar, but cannot specify where you have seen him.
3 A. Please, I viewed a lot of photographs, and I can't remember what
4 sort of photographs I was shown. I signed the photographs that I viewed.
5 But they were photographs of victims and of people who are alive.
6 Q. You were also shown a photograph of an individual by the name of
7 Nasret Alija, and you were unable to recognise him. And you indicate
8 that you think it might be an gentleman by the name of Qamil Behramaj;
9 right?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. When you say you can't remember, does that mean you're having a
12 failure of recollection, or you're denying that it occurred?
13 A. I'm not denying that it occurred. It happened. And I'm saying
14 here that those things happened. If they are alive or dead, somebody
15 must have a look at it and check whether it -- what I'm saying is true.
16 Q. I now want to return to your travelling companion.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could go back to tab number 50. And
18 I'm going to start at page 7471. This is just to focus us in terms of
19 time.
20 Question, at the bottom of 7471, lines 22 --
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, this, again, is testimony in
22 private session. Should we go into private session?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, I thought we were. You're right. Yes. Back
24 into private.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
Page 2660
1 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2661
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2661-2662 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2663
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 Q. Was your travelling companion with you; yes or no?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: At the time the ear of the young man was being
12 cut.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 Please. Mr. Emmerson will have his turn in asking me questions,
15 and I will give him answers to his questions.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's fine. The Chamber is looking after
17 that. Don't -- just answer Mr. -- the lawyer's questions.
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2664
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You put to the witness the part you submit he
11 agrees with and the part you submit he doesn't agree with.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. The part you agree that -- the part that you agree to is that he
14 did not see a young boy having his ear cut off. And the part that you
15 disagree with -- correct?
16 A. I don't understand the question. Can you repeat it again,
17 please. Do you mean me or my travelling companion?
18 Q. Your travelling companion.
19 A. So, what is this about? Could you explain it again, please.
20 Q. Yes. You -- you agree that your travelling companion did not see
21 the young boy 's ear cut off, correct? As you claim it happened.
22 A. Yes, that's correct. He also doesn't accept that they were taken
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2665
1 But you don't agree with his assertion that he saw any rough or
2 ill-treatment of people while he was at the Jabllanice headquarters;
3 right? Because you said, among other things, (redacted)
4 (redacted).
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that Mr. -- I think Mr. Emmerson may well
12 be mistaken in this regard.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Proceed, then, Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. Is that correct?
16 A. Can you explain what you are talking about?
17 Q. Yes. When you were in Jabllanice with your travelling companion,
18 neither of you were beaten; correct?
19 A. That's correct. (redacted) was beaten.
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2666
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH:
13 Q. I want to discuss with you what you saw with regard to
14 Skender Kuqi.
15 Now, you've given us --
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Excuse me. Do we need to stay in private
17 session? I don't mind. I'm just asking.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm waiting.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The question was put to you, sir. You're the one
20 on the floor.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe that we do, but I'm waiting at
22 this point.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Prosecutor.
24 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I don't think we do.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into open session.
Page 2667
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
3 session.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
5 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH:
7 Q. Okay. First of all, I'd like to see if I understand generally
8 your position concerning Skender Kuqi's physical condition.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go to tab 4. That would be in that
10 smaller document there. That's going to be 1D15-0084.
11 Q. And this concerns an interview that you had in Pristina with
12 Mr. Tucker (redacted).
13 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: I apologise for interrupting, just having
14 some difficulty -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Wrong binder. The plastic cover. And I'm
16 referring the Court and counsel to the paragraph 6.
17 MR. ROGERS: In relation to paragraph 6, we have to be careful
18 not to name the other individual.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I wasn't intending to.
20 MR. ROGERS: No, but the witness may. So it's just a case of
21 telling him.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH:
23 Q. You mentioned two individuals in that paragraph. And the first
24 individual, that being the individual who was lucky to survive, do not
25 mention by name.
Page 2668
1 You stated:
2 "He was lucky to survive, because Skender Kuqi who escaped with
3 him was shot, recaptured, and killed by his captors."
4 A. He was not killed, sir.
5 Q. Was he shot?
6 A. They shot at him, but he was not killed then.
7 Q. So your statement with regard to -- with regard to what happened
8 to Skender Kuqi, as it has it here, is, I take it, inaccurate. He
9 escaped, that's true; right?
10 A. No, he was captured. He was brought there again to the prison.
11 He was not able to --
12 Q. Well, he escaped; right? And he was escaped, he was recaptured;
13 right?
14 A. Yes, he was captured, and they shot at him.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... doesn't say that they shot
16 at him in this paragraph. It says he was shot. That indicates that a
17 bullet entered some part of his body. Is that what happened?
18 A. I don't know whether a bullet entered into his body. I cannot
19 confirm that. I can only confirm or assert what I saw. I didn't see any
20 bullets.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... when you made the statement
22 (redacted), you were, at that time, relating something that you saw;
23 right? Or that you claim to have seen. That's what you claimed. You
24 claimed he escaped, you claimed he was shot, you claimed he was
25 recaptured. Right? That's what it says.
Page 2669
1 A. I didn't say he was shot at with a bullet. I only said that they
2 fired in his direction, but I didn't say that a bullet caught him.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could I perhaps ask that the witness read out
4 loud this part of the -- of his statement in Albanian so that we have it
5 interpreted back to us.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure. Absolutely.
7 MR. ROGERS: It would have to be in private session, I think,
8 Your Honours.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: There's a name -- there's a name there --
10 [Overlapping speakers] ...
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed -- or
12 private session.
13 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
14 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in private
15 session.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
17 Yes, Judge.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's only the sentence starting: "He was lucky
19 to survive, because Skender Kuqi who escaped with him was shot ..."
20 In paragraph 6.
21 So, Mr. Witness, could you read that sentence out loud?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 6, you said, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Not the entire number 6. Only the sentence
24 starting with: "He was lucky to survive, because Skender Kuqi, who
25 escaped with him ..."
Page 2670
1 Et cetera. Only that sentence. Until the end. Until: "killed
2 by his cap tors."
3 MR. ROGERS: Can I just confirm the witness is looking at the
4 Albanian version.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's what he should do. And here's -- and
6 here's what I'm asking. In Albanian so he can find the sentence, I
7 suppose. And he should read it in Albanian.
8 MR. ROGERS: Yes. No, I know. But I'm hoping he is looking at
9 the Albanian, not looking at the English. Because it won't help
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: He can tell us.
12 COUNSEL FOR WITNESS: If I can be of assistance. He is looking
13 at the Albanian version.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it about number 6, Your Honour?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... number 6
16 says -- starting at where the sentence says: "He was lucky to
17 survive ..."
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's in 6. That's part of 6.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Third line.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see it here, sir.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. [Microphone not activated]
22 Sorry, I'm going to say that again because my mike was off.
23 Just read the whole of paragraph 6 then.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is a person who is called
25 (redacted)
Page 2671
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted).
6 This is not so, as I see it here.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to ask a question, and I would like you,
8 Madam Interpreter, to confirm. I'm quoting what you told us in English.
9 You said "because Skender Kuqi, who had escaped with him, was
10 killed, recaptured and killed.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: So he was killed twice. Is that what you're
13 saying, Madam Interpreter?
14 THE INTERPRETER: That's what the witness said, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. I just want to be sure, is
16 that what you're saying, sir, that when they -- that he was killed,
17 recaptured, and then killed. Is that your testimony?
18 Okay. It's not your testimony. Is that what is written here?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... over it again. Just
21 read that part. Skender Kuqi who escaped with him was ...
22 Read that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... who had escaped with him, is
24 killed, is captured again, and is killed."
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Killed, captured, and killed. That's what we're
Page 2672
1 hearing.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what is written here,
3 Your Honour. I don't know how it came to be written like that.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not fighting with you. I'm just surprised
7 that we see this first "killed" that is being referred to is not what we
8 see in the document that is before us. And I'm just trying to give
9 everybody an opportunity to tell us what is the correct position. Either
10 the interpreter out there, or you, or, you know, but what you are
11 saying -- but if that is what is being said or what is written here, so
12 be it.
13 Mr. Guy-Smith, that's it. He was killed, captured, and killed.
14 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours --
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. I mean --
16 MR. ROGERS: I don't want to get into a situation if --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe he was --
18 MR. ROGERS: But I'm trying to clarify a point.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, there's nothing for you to clarify.
20 MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated] ...
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Mr. Rogers. At this point, if -- if
22 Mr. Kuqi is to be likened to Lazarus, then that's as far as we can take
23 it, and I'm satisfied.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
25 MR. ROGERS: Then could Mr. Guy-Smith kindly just go to page 4 of
Page 2673
1 the statement and deal with the declaration, because the declaration
2 is --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Shouldn't you do that in re-examination, sir?
4 MR. ROGERS: I can. But it might be sensible to not leave the
5 Court with an impression that's not correct. If we deal with the process
6 of this now, without leaving the record in the state that it's in,
7 thinking that there's some issue about what might or might not have been
8 said. The problem is, is that --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Fine.
10 MR. ROGERS: Yeah.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith, do you agree with that?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not a problem.
13 Could you go to the fourth page of the document.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fourth ... you want the fourth page or the fourth
15 paragraph?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fourth page. Witness acknowledgment.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because the fourth page deals with -- okay.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. Is that your signature?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. At the time that you -- that you signed this witness
22 acknowledgment, what had occurred was that the statement had been read to
23 you from the English language and translated into Albanian; correct?
24 A. No. I don't know whether it was read to me. I know that I
25 wouldn't have said he was killed. I would have corrected it myself had I
Page 2674
1 known.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we go to page 5. And go to paragraph 4 of
3 page 5.
4 Q. This is the interpretation certification. Go to paragraph 3,
5 first of all. It says:
6 "I have orally translated the above statement from the English
7 language to the Albanian language in the presence of X," that would be
8 you "who appeared to have heard and understood my translation of this
9 statement."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, sir. It was not read out to me. Or even if it was read out
12 to me, it was wrongly read out. A long time has passed. The translator,
13 too, might have made a mistake. But I didn't say he was killed and again
14 he was killed. That's not true.
15 Q. Well, I understand that a long time has passed and you've taken
16 the position the translator may have made a mistake. But now, going to
17 the next paragraph, paragraph 4, it says as follows:
18 That you have acknowledged that the facts and matters set out in
19 his statement, as translated by me, are true to the best of his knowledge
20 and recollection and accordingly signed the statement where indicated.
21 And that's -- that's what occurred; right?
22 A. No, no. I am repeating: It was a mistake.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm mindful of the time.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not then.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay. When is "then"?
Page 2675
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's going to be 20 past --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oh, okay.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: I beg your pardon. Ten past 12.00.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: My apologies. Sleeping on the job. Yeah. Five
6 more minutes to go.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Five more minutes to go.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm looking at your colleague and he -- I'm not
10 sure whether or not he has an intervention or not.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm just wondering whether you are moving onto
12 something else or whether you continue with this.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm moving on to something else.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... might it not, then,
16 be a convenient time?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's why I said I noted the time.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... thank you so much.
19 We'll take a break, then, and come back at quarter to.
20 Court adjourned.
21 Really sleeping all the time.
22 May we move into the closed -- into closed session, please.
23 [Closed session]
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2676
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We're back in open session,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
8 We take a break and come back at quarter to.
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
12 [Closed session]
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
21 session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 Mr. -- we are left with two hours and 15 minutes for the
24 remainder of our working day. Mr. Guy-Smith, you had undertaken to
25 finish in about two and a half sessions. Can I take it that we're still
Page 2677
1 there and we can divide the remaining time this --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: We're very --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- can we divide the remaining time this way:
4 We -- we go for an hour, and we'll take a 15-minute break at quarter to
5 1.00, to 1.00, and then take the remaining hour to 2.00.
6 Can -- are you going to finish within a quarter of the first
7 hour?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: How long are you going to take, still?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Over the break, I excluded some more questions
11 from the questions that I already had, because I understand the
12 pressures. I'm going to take at least a half an hour.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: At least a half an hour. Hopefully ...
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
16 You may proceed.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Let's go into private session.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
19 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2678
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 I pause there for a minute. With regard to the massacre of the
22 family Jashari, could you tell us, if you know, what he's referring to?
23 A. Please. I'm not going to say anything regarding that family.
24 It's got nothing to do with me. Don't -- please don't ask me about such
25 things. It is a sacred family. I cannot say anything about that family.
Page 2679
1 Q. And when you say it's a sacred family, what you mean by that is
2 that the entire Jashari family was massacred by the Serbian forces in
3 1998, March of 1998; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
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21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2680
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9
10
11 Pages 2680-2689 redacted. Private session.
12
13
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15
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18
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22
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25
Page 2690
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 Q. I told you sometime ago that I wanted to discuss with you
24 Skender Kuqi and what you have told us you saw. And as I understand your
25 testimony, you saw Skender Kuqi's -- and I hope you can help me here.
Page 2691
1 You saw his guts hanging off of his body, saw his kidney outside of his
2 body; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. I did not see his intestines, but I saw the
4 body that was cut; and as far as I could see, the kidneys were open.
5 Q. And at the time that you saw -- so if I understand your
6 testimony, you saw his -- his kidney, was it -- was it hanging outside of
7 his body? Was it on top of his body? What was it then?
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: We have five minutes to go, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm fully appreciative of that.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were inside, but his back was
11 cut up.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated] ...
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the counsel.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: For your purposes, it's going to be 0346 [sic].
15 For our purposes, it's going to be tab 1, and specifically referring to
16 paragraph 29.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the clarity of transcript, Your Honours:
18 It's 03046.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. And I do apologise.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH:
22 Q. And referring to the condition of -- of his body, you state the
23 following:
24 "I could also observe that Skender's tongue was hanging out from
25 his mouth and was something I had never seen before. The tongue was
Page 2692
1 hanging so far out from his mouth that it looked like the tongue of a
2 cow. I could also observe that part of his guts were visible on his
3 back. First I thought it was his bowels, but then I understood it had to
4 be a kidney. It was an open wound and the kidney was visible outside his
5 body, a horrible sight."
6 My question to you is: Is that what you claim you saw? That's
7 what happened?
8 A. Yes. I'm saying that I saw it. The kidney was not outside the
9 body. The back was cut open.
10 When you say "outside the body," it means that it was detached
11 from the body. It wasn't.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Referring the Chamber and counsel to paragraph --
13 I'm sorry, tab 26, which is 1D15-0521.
14 Q. This is a statement given to Mr. Obruca, by a gentleman whose
15 last name is Shehaj, a doctor who dealt with Mr. Kuqi.
16 Dealing specifically with paragraph number 8, about seven lines
17 down he refers to what happened when Mr. Kuqi was brought to the
18 hospital.
19 "Kuqi was brought inside, and I made the first examinations of
20 his health conditions. I could not see any open wounds and he was in a
21 state of delirium. He was disoriented and not able to communicate. At
22 the first look, he had symptoms of a person who had kidney problems
23 because he had a swollen face, swollen feet, and swollen hands. Later
24 on, it was found that he had a kidney failure and that both kidneys were
25 completely blocked."
Page 2693
1 A. Who said this, sir?
2 Q. Said by Dr. Shehaj, who treated Skender Kuqi.
3 A. He might have spoken here about his real situation, and if he
4 has, one thing he has forgotten, which means that his kidneys were open.
5 You could see them.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Finally on this subject, if we could turn to
7 tab 24. Which is, for purposes of the Registry, 1D15-0519.
8 And I want to talk about this as well as -- and ask you about
9 your responses.
10 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, just before the question comes, I'm not
11 suggesting it's improper to put the question, but what I just want to
12 say - and I'm sure the Court very much has this in mind - these medical
13 documents are not in evidence. And until they are in evidence, the
14 answer from this witness as to his views and/or what he observed will be
15 final. Until such time as they have been admitted, they are not evidence
16 in this case. And Your Honours, I'm sure, will be treating them with due
17 care and caution, because they would need to be called, and the
18 Prosecution -- because they will be called not part of the Prosecution
19 case, the Prosecution would then wish to examine these doctors on the
20 very points, particularly the last doctor. This one is simply expressing
21 an opinion. Of course, this is also expert evidence that would need to
22 have leave to be called. So I'm just asking Your Honours to treat it
23 with a degree of caution at this stage, please.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH:
25 Q. Dr. Jerreat states the following:
Page 2694
1 "In paragraph 15 of the first statement there was a description
2 of a young Serb boy having his ear grabbed and ear cut off without any
3 problems in the cutting process. The ear fell down on the ground and was
4 vibrating in the dust as a butterfly when you drop it in the dust and
5 when it tries to get out from the it.
6 "Comment:
7 "This is a physical impossibility. The ear is constructed of
8 skin and largely cartilage. There are also blood vessels and nerves.
9 There are no muscles and there is no capability for independent movement
10 of the ear. Even blood drops falling from the head onto the ear would
11 not be of sufficient force to cause movement of a severed ear."
12 He goes on:
13 "In paragraph 29 there were two descriptions I can comment upon.
14 First [sic] the tongue was said to be hanging so far out from his mouth
15 that it looked like the tongue of a cow.
16 "Comment:
17 "Physically in life by active movement some people may be able to
18 extend the tongue to the lower chin.
19 "Firstly, I would not describe this as the appearance of a cow's
20 tongue which is of an entirely different appearance. And secondly I
21 would not expect a person who was alleged to have ... severe injuries
22 over a swollen body to have the ability to protrude his tongue in such a
23 matter [sic].
24 "In a later section he described 'I could also observe that parts
25 of his guts was visible on the back. First I thought it was his bowels,
Page 2695
1 but then I understood it had to be a kidney.'
2 "'It was an open wound and the kidney was visible outside of his
3 body, a horrible sight.'"
4 "Comment:
5 "This appearance, which I regard as impossible," and then it goes
6 on. I'll leave that out for the moment.
7 Second paragraph:
8 "The kidneys, as a result of the forward bulge of the lumbar part
9 of the vertebral column (spine) on the posterior (back) abdominal wall,
10 do not lie flat but are tilted at an angle, each effectively hanging down
11 into a 'gutter' at the side of the lumbar vertebrae and the psoas major
12 muscle ... as though suspended by the renal vein and artery.
13 "For a kidney to be seen outside a wound on the body, it would
14 either have to be ripped out from the wound or pushed through the back
15 wound from a force from the front of the kidney.
16 "The results of either of these would be tearing of either renal
17 blood vessels and/or aorta with sufficient" -- I'm sorry, "with
18 subsequent massive blood loss which would be gushing forth --"
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please, for the
20 interpreters.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sorry.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: There's request from the interpreters.
23 Mr. Guy-Smith, you heard the request.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can I start again? I'm asking the interpreter.
25 Madam interpreter, may I start again?
Page 2696
1 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, you can.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll start with "The results ..."
3 "The results of either of these would be tearing of either renal
4 blood vessels and/or aorta with subsequent massive blood loss which would
5 be gushing forth from the alleged body wound.
6 "This type of injury would cause an acute death from blood loss
7 and would not be compatible with swelling of the body from renal failure
8 which occurs over a period of hours, days or even a week dependant upon
9 its cause."
10 Having heard the comments made by Dr. Jerreat, do you maintain
11 the position that you have maintained concerning the ear that flutters
12 like a butterfly, the tongue that hangs like a cow, and the kidney
13 outside of the body?
14 A. I described to you the situation that I saw myself. I don't know
15 what the doctor -- or how the doctor saw it. I am not a doctor. But I
16 told you what I saw, the condition that he was in, in my eyes.
17 I apologise to his family that I have used this expression
18 "seemed like the tongue of a cow." This is not a nice way of putting it.
19 But that's the impression it gave me when I saw it.
20 Q. I have one last short round of questions and then I am done.
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2697
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Pages 2697-2698 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2699
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 Q. So you're clear, very clear, about our position: I put it to you
21 that the stories that you've told here about an ear being cut off, about
22 the presence of my client and his involvement in such behaviour, the
23 stories that you've told us about Mr. Kuqi and his condition - none are
24 true. These are things that you did not see, you were not present, you
25 were never detained in Jabllanice, were you? You made it up.
Page 2700
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would like to thank the Court for its --
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, if I may interrupt.
21 Mr. -- we believe Mr. Rogers had an intervention a minute ago which
22 did -- that was not recorded, if that can be repeated, please.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Rogers -- Mr. Rogers just said that was not a
24 fair question, and the question reiterated what he said to Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 And Mr. Guy-Smith rephrased his question.
Page 2701
1 Is that okay? Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I thank the Court for its further indulgence in
6 time.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 Yes, Mr. -- sorry, Mr. Emmerson. Can we take our break and you
9 can start at 1.00? It's going to be about ten and a half minutes.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. But I shan't have any questions for the
11 witness, so ...
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Oh, you have -- you're turning it over to him.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm not proposing to cross-examine this
14 witness, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Emmerson.
16 Mr. Rogers, can we take a short break and we'll start with
17 your -- take a short break, come back at 1.00?
18 Before we go -- I'm so sorry, something is wrong today.
19 [Closed session]
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2702
1 (redacted)
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We're back in open session,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
6 Take a break and come back at 1.00. Court adjourned.
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into closed session.
10 [Closed session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
21 session.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Rogers, you don't -- you're not obliged to take the entire
24 hour. If you leave a couple of minutes for us to do winding up things,
25 that will be very nice.
Page 2703
1 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, I don't wish to take up the entire
2 hour. I will be as brief as I responsibly can be.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Rogers:
5 Q. Mr. Witness, I have just a few additional questions for you,
6 please. The first relates to evidence you gave in answer to questions by
7 Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. ROGERS: And Your Honours will find it at transcript
9 reference at page T2478.
10 Mr. Witness, you were testifying about the time after you left
11 your village heading in the direction of (redacted) and the whole
12 village, was being put to you, were walking in that direction. You were
13 telling us that (redacted) and how
14 you'd been stopped in (redacted). Just so you understand where I
15 want to ask you. And you said to us -- so, the question came:
16 "So who stopped you at the (redacted)?"
17 And you answered:
18 "(redacted)."
19 In relation to that, when you were stopped in the (redacted), could
20 you tell us, please, what (redacted) said to you when you were
21 stopped?
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2704
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 Q. What do you mean by that? I'm not sure I understand.
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Rogers.
18 MR. ROGERS: Your Honours, that's all right. I'll withdraw the
19 question and move on to the next topic.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
21 MR. ROGERS:
22 Q. Let me move on, if I may, to the next part. You then told us
23 that you were stopped again in (redacted) and this time - this is at
24 transcript 2479 - this time you mentioned (redacted)
25 (redacted). On that occasion, what, if anything, did
Page 2705
1 (redacted) say to you? Why were you stopped?
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted).
5 Q. I want to deal with another issue now.
6 MR. ROGERS: Transcript T2481, for those following the
7 transcript.
8 Q. And you were being --
9 MR. ROGERS: We need to go into private session, please.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
11 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2706
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I'd like to move to strike that last
5 answer on the grounds that it was clearly based on hearsay.
6 MR. ROGERS: Hearsay is admissible before this Tribunal. It's a
7 matter of weight at the end of the day. That's his understanding and
8 that's why he says the witnesses -- he uses the phrase that he did.
9 There's nothing to strike out of the record at all.
10 MR. HARVEY: There's no sources provided for this. It is
11 completely insufficient as a statement to provide any -- any kind of
12 credence that this Tribunal can place in it. But, having said that, I'm
13 confident that this Tribunal is perfectly capable of ignoring unsourced
14 hearsay.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Harvey. Objection overruled.
17 MR. ROGERS: Thank you.
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2707
1
2
3
4
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7
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9
10
11 Pages 2707-2709 redacted. Private session.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 2710
1 (redacted)
2 MR. ROGERS:
3 Q. I just want to clarify, finally, Witness, relating to Skender
4 Kuqi and the matters that were discussed concerning shots.
5 Can you explain, please, what you meant when you referred to
6 shooting concerning Skender Kuqi. What did you mean?
7 A. There were gun-shots. When Skender Kuqi tried to escape from
8 prison, in order to stop him, they shot at him. I did not say that --
9 that the bullet pierced his body or something like that. I said that
10 there were shots at him and he stopped.
11 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... very clear: Was he alive or was he
12 dead?
13 A. Skender Kuqi was alive. He was not dead. He was captured alive
14 and was returned to the prison, to the place that I call a prison, and I
15 can draw a sketch of it if you want. I can draw the place where
16 Skender Kuqi was staying and the place where I was staying.
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2711
1
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11 Page 2711 redacted. Private session.
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Page 2712
1 (redacted)
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8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Any questions arising from the questions by the
18 Bench?
19 MR. ROGERS: No, thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Harvey?
21 MR. HARVEY: No, thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Guy-Smith?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Emmerson?
25 MR. EMMERSON: No, Your Honour.
Page 2713
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I brought the
3 documents that you asked me yesterday -- to bring yesterday. I have a
4 document that proves that I am innocent, that I have not done any evil
5 deeds, and that I behave properly.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can give them over to Mr. Court Officer.
7 Thank you so much, Mr. Witness.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are in Albanian. I don't know
9 whether you'll be able to translate them.
10 I was never charged. I have always behaved properly.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, Mr. Witness.
12 Mr. Court Officer, if it's possible to make copies and then give
13 the witness his copies back.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Witness, this -- okay. Let's wait for your
16 documents.
17 MR. ROGERS: Thank you. May the witness be released?
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: This brings us to the end of your testimony,
19 Mr. Witness. Sorry, just a second.
20 Yes.
21 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, the witness has brought these
22 documents in response to my request. I have not had an opportunity to
23 look at them. I don't expect that further questions will arise, but I
24 would like a moment to be able to glean what I can from them, given that
25 I do not speak Albanian, but I just want to have a moment, before the
Page 2714
1 witness is released, in case any matter of seriousness arises.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You would like to give them to Mr. Harvey.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Harvey.
5 Mr. Witness, I was just saying that -- maybe we go into open
6 session.
7 May the Chamber please move into open session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
10 session.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
12 Mr. Witness, we've come to the end of your testimony. The
13 Chamber just wants to thank you very much for coming forward to come and
14 testify. We understand that at the beginning of your testimony you did
15 indicate that you were not well, but still you have been able to stay on
16 with us for the last five days. So the Chamber is appreciative of that.
17 You are now excused. You may stand down. And please travel well
18 back home.
19 Before do you that, we're going to have to move into closed
20 session, though. And I know that you are expecting to get your documents
21 back, so copies will be made and they will be given to you.
22 May the Chamber please move into closed session.
23 [Closed session]
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 2715
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're back in open
9 session.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
11 I saw you rising, Mr. Rogers.
12 MR. ROGERS: I'm pleased to be able to say the Prosecution can
13 close its case.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, if we could just use the last few
16 minutes to deal with some sequential matters arising from the
17 announcement that Mr. Rogers has just made.
18 First of all, having canvassed the position with each of my
19 friends for the Defence, we thought it might be helpful to give
20 Your Honours an idea in broad terms for scheduling purposes of where
21 things may go from here, both in relation to any 98 bis submissions and
22 in relation to the possible scope of Defence cases. Anything that I say
23 now is for indication purposes only, because there is a possibility,
24 obviously, that things may change. But as matters stand - and I'll be
25 corrected if I put the position inaccurately - none of the three accused
Page 2716
1 intends to call any evidence beyond possibly one short viva voce witness,
2 or maybe two, and possibly some documents admitted under the 92 bis. And
3 so the reason I say that is because if there is to be any Defence
4 evidence, you will appreciate that it's unlikely to take more than a
5 single day of Court sitting time. Neither is it likely to require any
6 extended period for the preparation or filing of Defence opening briefs,
7 because the nature of the evidence is such that it would require nothing
8 more than a short covering letter.
9 That being the case, what I propose is this. First of all, that
10 having given that indication, the Tribunal make an order that the three
11 Defence teams formally confirm their position on the record seven days
12 from today, that is, on Friday, the 27th of April, by close of business,
13 and that the Chamber schedule a Status Conference on either Monday, the
14 30th of April, or Wednesday, the 2nd of May. I'm afraid that I have to
15 be at my mother's funeral on Tuesday, the 1st of May. So since it would
16 be, I think, desirable to have a Status Conference as urgently as
17 possible to clarify the position and set the schedule for the future, may
18 we request either of those two dates. And if neither are convenient,
19 maybe we could get diaries out now and work backwards.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Do you say the 30th of April, Mr. Emmerson?
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Isn't that an official holiday?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Ah. Shall we say Wednesday, the 2nd of May? So
24 then the Tribunal will have our submission formally in writing by the
25 Friday before; therefore, three days before the Status Conference
Page 2717
1 everybody will know where they stand.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just on a sideline, our condolences for you.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: When did it happen?
5 MR. EMMERSON: Just before we left.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sorry about that.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
8 So just to recap: Friday the 27th of April for formal filing of
9 the Defence position on 98 bis and a Defence case; a scheduling
10 Status Conference for Wednesday, the 2nd of May, at which dates can be
11 fixed for the submission of any Defence opening briefs, as well as the
12 calling of the limited amount of viva voce evidence that there may be,
13 which one would hope would be able to be called at the first available
14 date; followed by scheduling for closing briefs.
15 So all of that could be dealt with at the Status Conference once
16 we've had a week of intervening in order to ensure that the Defence
17 position can be formalised.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Unfortunately, I didn't
19 write the dates as you were saying.
20 MR. EMMERSON: I was saying Friday, the 27th of April, so that's
21 seven days from today --
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
23 MR. EMMERSON: -- at the close of bliss.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Right.
25 MR. EMMERSON: And the submission by the Defence formally of
Page 2718
1 their positions on 98 bis and Defence case.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Fine.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Followed by a Status Conference on Wednesday, the
4 2nd of May, at which Scheduling Orders can be given. And the plea that,
5 after the 2nd of May, if there is to be viva voce evidence, it be at the
6 first available sitting date at which the witnesses are capable of
7 attending.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
9 MR. EMMERSON: So that's the suggestion. I've got one or two
10 other matters to raise procedurally, but I don't know if Mr. Rogers wants
11 to comment on the suggestion that I've made already or whether he wishes
12 to qualify or add to it.
13 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, no, that seems perfectly reasonable. I
14 think the date is [indiscernible] but it can be accommodated by the
15 Court, if that is a sensible date. I do have one issue that I wish to
16 raise myself relating to --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you raise it, can we just get confirmation
18 from the other two counsel on the suggestion made by Mr. Emmerson.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I conferred with Mr. Emmerson prior to this
20 time.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
22 MR. HARVEY: As did I, Your Honour. We are in agreement.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
24 Mr. Rogers, you may --
25 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated] ... I think we've got a
Page 2719
1 shopping list which is going to deal with the issue that Mr. Rogers
2 intends to raise.
3 The next matter so far as Mr. Haradinaj is concerned is that
4 whilst I've been on my feet an application for provisional release has
5 been filed on his behalf. The Prosecution were notified of the
6 application on Wednesday with a view to taking instructions from
7 Prosecutor as to whether or not it could be dealt with by way of oral
8 submissions this afternoon. The position it can't be and therefore an
9 application has been filed in writing.
10 In order to lay the foundation for the application I'm just about
11 to make, which is as to timing for responses in determination, can I
12 please ask the Registry to hand to Mr. Rogers and to Your Honours, not
13 for reading now but for taking away, the application for provisional
14 release, because, of course, it's a Friday evening, very late in
15 The Hague, and I would want the matter to be progressed as speedily as
16 possible. And given that the Prosecutor and Mr. Rogers have been on
17 notice for it for some days, it's right that they should have the
18 opportunity to look at the detail of it. Because I'm going to ask the
19 Trial Chamber to abridge the time for the Prosecutor's written response
20 until 5.00 p.m. on Monday.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
22 Mr. Rogers, you had an issue.
23 MR. ROGERS: No, I can't do it by 5.00 p.m. on Monday.
24 Your Honours, we will deal with it, I would suggest, by the end
25 of the next week. I need to discuss the matters with the Prosecutor and
Page 2720
1 go through it. And that's the time-frame in which we can do it. To put
2 us in the position of trying to deal with this by distance today would be
3 quite wrong, and we are entitled on normal circumstances to 14 days to
4 respond to these matters. But I am prepared to undertake that we will
5 file a response by the end of next week, by next Friday, which would be
6 seven days shorter than that which we are entitled to under the Rules.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You had a issue to raise. Have we covered it now?
8 MR. ROGERS: I think Mr. Emmerson can deal with it, because we
9 talked about it earlier, although if he's going to refer to the order,
10 we'll have to go, I'm afraid, into private session.
11 MR. EMMERSON: I think it's better if that part of the agenda is
12 dealt with in private session in any event.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
14 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we're in private
16 session.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, the position is simply this. That
19 because of the way in which this witness's evidence has progressed,
20 obviously there have been the occasional slip in public session, as well
21 as the need to release into public session certain matters that were, out
22 of abundance of caution, took place in private session, subject to
23 redactions. And given the fact that there are more than the usual number
24 of problems associated with that in relation to this witness, the
25 suggestion that we have discussed between the parties is that the
Page 2721
1 Prosecution should file, I think, within seven days.
2 MR. ROGERS: [Microphone not activated] ... we can tie it up with
3 the same time -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly. Within seven days. It's proposals for
5 redaction and the release into public session of any closed or private
6 session material that doesn't need to remain in closed or private
7 session. The Defence, then, to consider and respond. But, as a result,
8 for the Chamber to make an order suspending the automatic release for the
9 public session material in five days until further order. To --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: And you're just asking us to do that, and which we
11 can do right now, or ...
12 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. It's so ordered that the evidence that has
14 been taken in the remote location shall not be released until further
15 order -- made public until further order.
16 MR. EMMERSON: And finally this. And it may seem -- it may seem
17 like a rather curmudgeonly request. But you -- the Bench has been
18 provided, purely for convenience purposes to available my learned friends
19 to cross-examine so that everyone is working from the same schedule, with
20 a bundle of material which was prepared by the Haradinaj Defence at the
21 time when it was thought that there was a likelihood or a possibility
22 that I would be cross-examining this witness. Now, none of that material
23 has been tendered. And not only that, the file contains material that
24 hasn't even been referred to. And in order that everybody can see that
25 justice is being done according to the way in which it ought to be done,
Page 2722
1 and if that can be not only done but seen to be done, we would request
2 that the material that Your Honours have been given - and that is all of
3 the documentary material that you've been given that has not been
4 exhibited - now be returned to the parties so that nobody can be left
5 under any misapprehension that the Trial Chamber would be doing research
6 of its own. And I know you wouldn't be, but --
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Thank you very much --
8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exactly. I thought you might be.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much, sir.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I just didn't want to -- some Judges would think
11 that disrespectful, but I know that none of this Chamber would.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I was just concerned what am I going to do with
13 it, from a weight point of view.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
15 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, we were hoping --
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you want yours?
17 MR. ROGERS: We were hoping you would take ours back because we
18 understand you have a larger weight limit than we do.
19 MR. EMMERSON: That only leaves outstanding the documents
20 produced by the witness, and I have nothing to say about that. I don't
21 understand any party yet to have tendered them. They haven't been
22 translated. Can that simply be left in abeyance?
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Sure.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you done? Thank you so much. I think --
Page 2723
1 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
2 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, not to try the patience of all of us
3 who are anxious to leave this beautiful remote location, may I just say
4 there are a couple of housekeeping matters in relation to documents that
5 I tendered that I had provided to the witness yesterday which I did not
6 tender for admission. I will provide a list to the Prosecution, and
7 hopefully we can resolve any outstanding matters in relation to that in
8 the course of next week.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is there to resolve? Do you want to tender
10 them later?
11 MR. HARVEY: Well, I -- I can tender -- I can tender them now by
12 listing the exhibit numbers --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: No --
14 MR. HARVEY: But failing that, then I would wish the opportunity
15 to pursue that with the Prosecution before matters are closed completely.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Prosecution will indicate to you whether it
17 intends to give you that opportunity.
18 MR. HARVEY: Yes. I --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: The Chamber won't be party to that.
20 MR. HARVEY: I understand that.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you, sir.
22 MR. HARVEY: And finally may I say that it is also my intention
23 of Mr. -- on behalf of Mr. Brahimaj to file an application for
24 provisional release. The Court will have that on Monday.
25 Thank you.
Page 2724
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13 intrusion into their ordinary and regular functions, and I think, if I
14 may say so on behalf of all of the parties and their representatives, we
15 would like to express our thanks for the courtesy and hospitality that's
16 been shown to us throughout this rather difficult week.
17 MR. ROGERS: Your Honour, can I say, on behalf of the Prosecutor,
18 that we do thoroughly endorse every remark that Mr. Emmerson has made.
19 We are extremely grateful for all of the assistance we have received from
20 everybody that has taken part in these proceedings. Not least of all to
21 our own staff from the ICTY who, if I may say, have done an extraordinary
22 job, both here and in The Hague. To make this work is quite astonishing,
23 and a real tribute should be paid to everybody that has taken part in
24 this.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ...
Page 2725
1 MR. EMMERSON: Microphone.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] ... and Mr. Rogers for
3 making those thanks to our hosts here, because that's what I've been
4 hoping I would -- the Bench would be able to do in the remaining minutes
5 that we still have.
6 The -- the Chamber endorses every word of what you've said.
7 There's no need to repeat that. Save to add that we are also grateful to
8 you, Mr. Interpreter. We know that you have taken time off your very
9 busy schedule to come and be with us and be available, and we recognise
10 that and we appreciate that, and we are very grateful to you for that.
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Page 2726
1 (redacted)
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