1. 1 Wednesday, 2nd December, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.35 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Please take

    5 your seat. Mr. Usher, could you please make sure that

    6 the accused is brought in?

    7 (The accused entered court)

    8 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I would like

    9 to greet everyone. Hello to the interpreters. I hope

    10 everybody can hear me. I am also greeting the members

    11 of the Prosecution team, the members of the Defence

    12 team. Good afternoon, Mr. Jelisic.

    13 I see that Witness B is already in the

    14 courtroom. Can you hear me, Witness B? Have you been

    15 able to take a rest? Do you feel comfortable?

    16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    18 I'm sorry for the slight delay. The interpreters have

    19 worked very hard this morning. Judge Rodrigues has

    20 worked very hard also this morning. We've all worked

    21 very hard, in fact, so we took a few minutes more to

    22 take a bit of rest, but we may now resume our work.

    23 May I remind you that we are in public

    24 session, that the witness is under oath, and that the

    25 witness has been granted a number of protective

  2. 1 measures. Therefore, I will ask that since we are in

    2 open session, every document be shown on the screens of

    3 the public gallery.

    4 Mr. Greaves, you have the floor.

    5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    6 Honour.

    7 WITNESS: WITNESS B (Resumed)

    8 Cross-examination by Mr. Greaves:

    9 [Witness answers through Interpreter]

    10 Q. Witness B, I am going to ask you some

    11 questions now on behalf of Mr. Jelisic, and I would

    12 like you to --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) You will be

    14 the only counsel putting questions to the witness; is

    15 that right, Mr. Greaves?

    16 MR. GREAVES: That's right, Your Honour.

    17 Q. Witness B, can I just ask you this before I

    18 start asking you some questions: If you don't

    19 understand my question, please remember to stop me and

    20 ask me to repeat it again so that you can understand

    21 it, all right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And if you want to take a pause or anything

    24 like that because you are feeling a bit upset or

    25 anything, please ask and we'll make arrangements for

  3. 1 you to do that, all right?

    2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be

    3 advised to move closer to the microphone, please?

    4 MR. GREAVES:

    5 Q. Yes. I think you may need to move a little

    6 closer to the microphone, Witness B. It's not picking

    7 up your voice.

    8 Thank you very much, Mr. Usher.

    9 Witness B, I would like to ask you, first of

    10 all, about your -- I think you arrived in The Hague

    11 this week; is that right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Since arriving in The Hague but before you

    14 began giving evidence yesterday, did you discuss that

    15 evidence with anybody?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. So you didn't spend some time with

    18 Mr. Tochilovsky and go over what you were likely to say

    19 or your statements about these incidents?

    20 A. I don't know.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Why are you

    22 putting this question to the witness, Mr. Greaves?

    23 What is your aim?

    24 MR. GREAVES: The next set of questions I

    25 think will make clear what my objective is, and perhaps

  4. 1 you would be patient, please.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes.

    3 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I will try to

    5 be patient, Mr. Greaves.

    6 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    7 Honour.

    8 Q. Witness B, my next question is this: Since

    9 you gave evidence yesterday afternoon, have you

    10 discussed that evidence with anybody?

    11 A. No, I have not, with anyone.

    12 Q. Thank you very much. I'll move on now,

    13 please, if I may? I want to ask you, first of all, now

    14 about your arrival at what I think is called the Laser

    15 company on the 6th of May of 1992. Just so that we

    16 understand the setting, please, is it right that the

    17 Laser company is a bus or transport company?

    18 A. It was on the 6th of May, not 16th of May --

    19 Q. I think you may have misheard, I think I said

    20 the 6th, but your arrival at the Laser company on the

    21 6th of May, I want to know a little bit about the

    22 physical --

    23 A. On the 6th of May.

    24 Q. The Laser company, is that a bus company?

    25 A. Yes, it is a bus company. That's where the

  5. 1 buses would come and they would leave from there, and

    2 it was called the Laser company.

    3 Q. And the buildings that you were taken to, was

    4 that -- I hope that you understand the difference

    5 between the two -- was that the bus station or where

    6 the buses were repaired?

    7 A. No, it was neither. It was a restaurant.

    8 This is where people ate.

    9 Q. So this was part of the bus station where

    10 people would actually get on the bus and get off the

    11 bus?

    12 A. Yes. This was within the compound of the

    13 Laser company, it was this restaurant, and I was there.

    14 Q. And, again, so that we can get the picture of

    15 what the building was being used for, is it right that

    16 this building was being used as a collection point for

    17 people who had been detained and who were then moved

    18 after a couple of days to some other detention

    19 facility?

    20 A. Yes. That is what the building was used for.

    21 Q. And in your own case, you were moved to the

    22 Luka facility on the 8th of May.

    23 A. That's right.

    24 Q. During the period in which you were held at

    25 the Laser company, were you always kept in the

  6. 1 restaurant?

    2 A. Yes, I was.

    3 Q. I want to ask you now about the voice that

    4 you heard at the Laser company. It is right, isn't it,

    5 that you did not physically see Mr. Jelisic at the

    6 Laser company buildings?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And what it comes to is that you heard a

    9 particular voice on one of the occasions -- one of the

    10 days when you were at the Laser company?

    11 A. Yes, I heard Goran's voice. I did not know

    12 that it was Goran, but on the 8th of May, that it was

    13 Goran.

    14 Q. I'm going to come back to your knowledge of

    15 Mr. Jelisic in a moment, but I just want to explore a

    16 little, if I may, the circumstances at the restaurant.

    17 Was this on the 6th of May or on one of the days

    18 following?

    19 A. On the 6th of May.

    20 Q. And you were still in the restaurant building

    21 at the time when it took place?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. The voice that you heard on that occasion,

    24 was it inside the restaurant or was it something that

    25 you heard taking place outside the building?

  7. 1 A. Inside the building. I could not see

    2 outside. I was inside the building. It wasn't just

    3 me; there was quite a few of us. There were a lot of

    4 prisoners or detainees in the restaurant.

    5 Q. I understand that, Witness B, but can I just

    6 explore it a little further? You were inside the

    7 restaurant, but from where did the voice come? Was the

    8 voice actually inside the restaurant or was the voice

    9 outside the building?

    10 A. Inside the restaurant.

    11 Q. Thank you. Now, it's right, isn't it, that

    12 you had never heard that voice before that night?

    13 A. Never.

    14 Q. And, indeed, you did not know Goran Jelisic

    15 from before the war at all, did you?

    16 A. Never, never in my life had I met him.

    17 Q. And you had never heard of him either?

    18 A. Never, never.

    19 Q. I want to look at the conditions inside the

    20 restaurant. Was it at night when this incident took

    21 place when you heard the voice?

    22 A. It was night, about 8.00. There were no

    23 lights. There was some small lamp, but you couldn't

    24 really see.

    25 Q. So --

  8. 1 A. This was on the 6th of May at night, around

    2 8.00, at least this is my best guess.

    3 Q. Well, it may be that the time doesn't matter,

    4 but in any event, it was dark outside; the only

    5 light --

    6 A. Dark, dark.

    7 Q. The only light that was present in the

    8 building was a small light which didn't enable you to

    9 see at all?

    10 A. Not at all. Not at all.

    11 Q. So just to make it clear, it is only a

    12 question of you hearing a voice; you did not see

    13 anybody who was speaking on that occasion, you

    14 physically couldn't see anybody?

    15 A. I could not. No, I could not. I could only

    16 hear the voice because I did not know who it was. In

    17 fact, there were three of them. They entered --

    18 Q. Three people speaking?

    19 A. Yes. The third had a rifle, and he

    20 ordered -- he was ordered to cock his rifle, to train

    21 it on us so that we wouldn't budge.

    22 Q. Now, I want to ask you this, please: The

    23 voice that you heard, did you hear that for a very

    24 short period, a matter of seconds, or was there a lot

    25 of conversation and speech?

  9. 1 A. It was about ten to fifteen minutes, that is

    2 the time span within which this happened.

    3 Q. Would it be right to say, Witness B, that at

    4 the time when you were first taken into detention, you

    5 were confused and in a confused state having just been

    6 detained?

    7 A. Who wouldn't be confused at that time? We

    8 didn't know who was coming -- to come for my house, to

    9 see these people all scared. We were helpless. We

    10 didn't know what to do. Nobody had any idea.

    11 Everybody used to live well. We were used to good

    12 living. I almost died from fear there.

    13 Q. I'm not criticising you in any way,

    14 Witness B; you understand that. I'm just trying to

    15 establish what frame of mind you were in and how well

    16 you were able to assess the circumstances in which you

    17 found yourself; do you understand that?

    18 A. Of course, I understand.

    19 Q. Thank you. Given that there was only -- I'm

    20 sorry. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, Your

    21 Honour.

    22 Given that there was only a very small light

    23 which didn't enable you to see terribly well, can you

    24 tell us this, please: How were you able to see any

    25 beatings taking place or the guard pointing a gun?

  10. 1 A. I saw because there were windows, there was

    2 moonlight. Of course, you could see; it wasn't

    3 entirely dark. At any rate, he ordered the guard to

    4 cock his gun and train it on us, and then they called

    5 us one by one, and they had to stand against the wall,

    6 to spread their legs and raise their arms, and then

    7 they started beating them and then they took turns at

    8 beating them. Two or three men were beating; and some

    9 documents were taken away, they were thrown out. The

    10 man who had been beaten asked to be given back those

    11 documents, but the next day, they couldn't find them.

    12 Q. Yesterday in evidence, you said this when you

    13 were asked about who it was who had said, "Cock your

    14 rifle and point it at them," you told the Court, "I

    15 think it was Goran Jelisic." Do you remember saying

    16 that to us?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Would it be right to say that you are not

    19 sure when you say, "I think it was him"? You are not

    20 sure that it was him?

    21 A. I never knew this man until I saw him in the

    22 Luka camp on the 8th of May. That's when I knew that

    23 this was Goran Jelisic from Laser, and I recognised him

    24 by his voice.

    25 Q. All right. Well, let's move on to another

  11. 1 topic please, Witness B, if we may. You've described,

    2 upon your arrival at the Luka detention facility, being

    3 taken initially -- after handing your documents in,

    4 being taken to a hangar and finding there a woman. Do

    5 you remember telling us about that yesterday?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. The woman, was she a Serb or a --

    8 A. A girl, a girl, it was a girl, and it was a

    9 Serbian girl. I don't know exactly, but she was a

    10 girl. I'm not sure whether she was Serbian, but for

    11 me, it was a girl, and she was a very pretty,

    12 attractive girl.

    13 Q. But was she in any kind of uniform or was she

    14 dressed in civilian clothes or what?

    15 A. Civilian.

    16 Q. And did she tell you that she had had her

    17 breast cut off or were you able to see that or was

    18 there just simply a large bandage or wound that you

    19 could see? How did you know that?

    20 A. She didn't tell it to me. She told it to

    21 everybody who was present in the hangar. Of course,

    22 you could see that the woman had breasts, and she had a

    23 bandage where the breast was. She said that the

    24 Muslims had cut off the breast. We could see that her

    25 body was normal, but we had to watch and listen to what

  12. 1 she was saying because we were completely helpless.

    2 Q. Did you learn the name of this person at any

    3 stage?

    4 A. No, no, I did not.

    5 Q. Was this the only occasion when you saw this

    6 girl?

    7 A. I saw this girl on that day when she

    8 appeared, and never again. During my time at Luka, I

    9 never saw her again there.

    10 Q. All right. I'd like to now ask you, please,

    11 what time of day it was that you arrived at Luka?

    12 A. Around 1.30 or 2.00 on the 8th of May. From

    13 Laser, we were bussed to Luka.

    14 Q. And before -- I'll start again. Was it

    15 immediately after you had handed in your documents in

    16 the way that you've described? Was it immediately

    17 after that that you were taken to the hangar?

    18 A. Immediately.

    19 Q. And --

    20 A. I'm sorry. The bus stopped right by the

    21 hangar, by the door, and we went directly from the bus

    22 into the hangar. We just had to throw all the

    23 documents as we were entering. This is what we were

    24 ordered, and this is what we did.

    25 Q. Inside the hangar, was it dark inside there

  13. 1 when you first went in?

    2 A. It wasn't dark. It was daytime. It was a

    3 nice day, sunny, but to me, it was a deadly day when I

    4 realised how many people there were in the hangar.

    5 There were glass shards from the explosion when the

    6 bridge had been blown up, and so you couldn't stand.

    7 The whole floor was filled with shards. I was very

    8 surprised.

    9 Q. Were the doors to the hangar closed after you

    10 had gone into it?

    11 A. The door was open. Both doors were wide

    12 open.

    13 Q. I think there are doors at both the front and

    14 the back of the building; is that right?

    15 A. No, no, only on one side. No, no, they were

    16 only from one side, not from the front and back.

    17 Q. All right.

    18 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours will just give

    19 me a moment, please.

    20 Q. I'd like you to look at the exhibit bundle,

    21 please, and the first photograph in that exhibit

    22 bundle.

    23 A. Yes, of course.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Please go on,

    25 Mr. Greaves.

  14. 1 MR. GREAVES: I can't see the witness at the

    2 moment, and I'd like to be able to see him as I ask him

    3 questions, please, because the usher is in the way.

    4 Thank you very much.

    5 Q. Witness B, have you had a look at that

    6 photograph?

    7 A. Yes, I recognise it.

    8 Q. Would you agree with me that that is a

    9 photograph of what might be called the front side of

    10 the hangar?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. I'd like you now to look -- well, can you

    13 just help me with this. At the back of the hangar, on

    14 the opposite side from the side which we can see on

    15 that photograph, is there a railway line, a railway

    16 siding?

    17 A. Yes, that is correct. There is a railway

    18 track. I believe that there are two tracks there, a

    19 double track behind.

    20 Q. I'd like you to look at two photographs,

    21 please, and before they get an exhibit number, just

    22 have a look at them, please.

    23 A. Yes, of course.

    24 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The Prosecution would like

    25 to see the photos first because we've never seen them.

  15. 1 MR. GREAVES: Of course.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I quite agree

    3 with Mr. Tochilovsky, Mr. Greaves, and these exhibits

    4 should receive a number anyway. You are trying to

    5 impeach the witness on some very specific issues;

    6 therefore, it is necessary for the Judges and for the

    7 members of the Prosecution team to be able to refer to

    8 the photographs on the basis of which you are trying to

    9 do this, and it's very important that the Judges should

    10 be able to see these photographs.

    11 MR. GREAVES: Of course, and I apologise if

    12 there was any discourtesy, Your Honour. I'm just

    13 anxious to make sure that --

    14 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Don't worry,

    15 Mr. Greaves. But, Mr. Greaves, you have to answer a

    16 particular question I put to you at the very beginning

    17 of the cross-examination, and you haven't given me an

    18 answer. Why did you ask the witness repeatedly a

    19 certain number of questions? You told me that I had to

    20 wait for the next set of questions. I've waited, and I

    21 haven't understood your aim.

    22 MR. GREAVES: You're entirely right, Your

    23 Honour. I'm only concerned -- I have no objection to

    24 the --

    25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I never forget

  16. 1 the questions I put to Defence counsel, Mr. Greaves.

    2 MR. GREAVES: I shall remember that, Your

    3 Honour. I have no objection to the people on the

    4 Prosecution side discussing the evidence with a witness

    5 before he gives evidence, but I make it plain that I do

    6 have an objection to them speaking to a witness after

    7 he has taken the oath and before he has completed his

    8 evidence.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Precisely.

    10 This is a very crucial issue that you are raising,

    11 Mr. Greaves, and the members of the Defence team should

    12 think about it, just as much as members of the

    13 Prosecution team, and we will have the opportunity to

    14 go back on this particular issue, I'm sure. It is a

    15 problematic issue. What should we allow the witnesses

    16 to do outside the courtroom? This is something both

    17 the Prosecution team and the Defence team should think

    18 about. The Judges are not quite sure what the best

    19 procedure should be. I'm not criticising the questions

    20 you've put to the witness earlier on. I was just

    21 trying to see what your aim was.

    22 Thank you, Mr. Greaves, for your

    23 explanation. You may now proceed. I will just take

    24 this opportunity to hand to my colleagues the pictures

    25 of the back side of the hangar, I think.

  17. 1 MR. GREAVES: Can I just add that the reason

    2 I passed on immediately was because the witness said

    3 that he'd spoken to nobody, and I accept that answer,

    4 and I didn't think it, in connection with this witness,

    5 of any further importance to raise the matter, and

    6 that's why I moved on and forgot to answer Your

    7 Honour's question. I will remember in future that I

    8 have to answer.

    9 Q. Witness B, I would like you just to have a

    10 look at these two photographs, please.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits 2 and 3, D2 and D3.

    12 A. This is behind -- these are the railway

    13 tracks behind the hangar, from behind. The photograph

    14 was taken from the back.

    15 MR. GREAVES:

    16 Q. Yes. I'm not criticising you in any way,

    17 Witness B, and I want you to be clear about that. I

    18 just want to get it clear that we can see there what

    19 looks like a door at the back of the building. Do you

    20 accept that?

    21 A. The door is closed. These doors were

    22 locked. They were never opened.

    23 Q. Right.

    24 A. Those doors were never opened. They are

    25 locked. I forgot to mention that.

  18. 1 Q. I'm not criticising you in any way. I just

    2 wanted to make it absolutely clear that there were not

    3 only doors at the front of the building but that there

    4 were doors at the back, and you say that they were

    5 closed at all times?

    6 A. Yes, there were doors there, but they were

    7 always locked, always. No one can go out through

    8 them. They only went out through that one door. This

    9 door was always locked, and there were heavy chains on

    10 them and a big lock.

    11 Q. All right. Thank you very much. We've

    12 finished now with the photographs. They can go back to

    13 the Registry, please.

    14 You say that when you were first in the

    15 hangar, that you could see because it was daylight

    16 outside. Apart from the daylight that was lighting up

    17 the inside of the hangar, was there any lighting of any

    18 kind inside the hangar?

    19 A. No, there wasn't. There was moonlight that

    20 gave us light. That was all.

    21 Q. Can I just clarify again, as far as your

    22 arrival at Luka was concerned, was it 1.30 in the

    23 afternoon or 1.30 in the middle of the night that you

    24 arrived?

    25 A. In the afternoon.

  19. 1 Q. I'd like to move now to the time when you say

    2 Mr. Jelisic came and introduced himself to you. Your

    3 evidence yesterday was that his introduction was in the

    4 following terms: "My name is Goran Jelisic, known as

    5 Adolf. You will get to know me well. I am the boss

    6 here."

    7 In relation to the first part of that

    8 introduction, it's right, isn't it, that what you said

    9 to the investigators was, "My name is Goran. They call

    10 me Adolf."

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Thank you. I want to move on now to the -- I

    13 hesitate to call it a joke because it's not a joke, but

    14 the remark that was made about those whose names would

    15 be read out were to be executed, but, in fact, they

    16 were meant for release. Were there releases that took

    17 place that day?

    18 A. There were.

    19 Q. In general terms, was that the only day on

    20 which releases took place or were there other occasions

    21 when releases took place?

    22 A. There were other occasions, but on that day,

    23 most people went home. There were another two or three

    24 occasions when 10 to 20 people were released on each of

    25 those occasions.

  20. 1 Q. I'd like you to help me with some numbers,

    2 please, Witness B. Can you tell us, and I don't want

    3 an exact figure, but roughly how many people were

    4 detained with you at Luka on the first day that you

    5 were there at the outset, and then I want to know about

    6 how many were released?

    7 A. Roughly, there were about 400 or 500 of us.

    8 The hangar was full. We were standing very close to

    9 one another. We were packed. There were too many of

    10 us, in fact. More than half of the hangar was packed

    11 full. We were standing right next to one another, so

    12 there really were quite a number of us.

    13 Q. Of the 400 or 500, I appreciate that's a very

    14 rough figure, but of the 400 or 500 people who were

    15 initially there, how many would you say were, in fact,

    16 released that day?

    17 A. I assume about 100, maybe a little more.

    18 Anyway, quite a number were released because he carried

    19 quite a large number of documents with him, so did the

    20 guard, so quite a large number were released that day.

    21 Within a two-hour period after having examined those

    22 documents, these people were called out and they were

    23 released. I can't give you the exact number, but many,

    24 almost half, of the people in the hangar were released.

    25 Q. Help me with this: You think there were some

  21. 1 two or three other days when releases took place, is

    2 that accurate, or was it more or less?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. On those occasions, were similar numbers of

    5 people released from the detention facility?

    6 A. I know that Goran released them on that first

    7 day. As for the other days when people were released,

    8 between 10, 15, up to 30 men were released. On those

    9 occasions, I didn't see Goran giving these pieces of

    10 paper with signatures on them but, rather, the people

    11 who interrogated us, they gave us release papers. I

    12 too was interviewed, but I didn't have the good fortune

    13 to be released, but I was kept on because they said,

    14 "We don't have any more of these discharge papers.

    15 You will be moved to another part of the hangar or

    16 exchanged." In any event, there would be no more

    17 discharges, but, rather, a work unit would be formed.

    18 Anyway, for two or three days after that day,

    19 quite a number of people were released, up to 30

    20 perhaps every day, and they were sent home.

    21 Q. Were all the people who were detained with

    22 you Muslim or were there people from other ethnic

    23 groups detained with you?

    24 A. There were some Croats as well but very few.

    25 Most of us were Muslims, and there were a few Croats.

  22. 1 Q. The people who were released, were they all

    2 Muslim people?

    3 A. I think, I can't be sure, but most of them

    4 were certainly Muslims. I didn't know who was a

    5 Muslim, who was a Croat, but it was mostly Muslims who

    6 were released. I don't know whether any Croats went,

    7 we didn't dare look, but mostly it was the Muslims who

    8 were released. There were very few Croats anyway

    9 there.

    10 Q. Thank you. Now, on that first occasion when

    11 something like half the people were released, was that

    12 Goran Jelisic, you say, who released them?

    13 A. I know for the first day. I don't know for

    14 the other days, whether it was Goran, because the

    15 people who were interrogating us in the offices, they

    16 were giving papers. Then they would come to the hangar

    17 to say good-bye to us, saying "We're going home."

    18 Q. Thank you. I would like just to move very

    19 briefly to the death of the Zahirovic brothers about

    20 which you told us yesterday.

    21 A. Zahirovic, Zahirovic.

    22 Q. I'm sorry. You have to understand that I'm

    23 not a Bosnian speaker, and I do apologise if I

    24 mispronounce the names. You will forgive me, I'm sure,

    25 Witness B.

  23. 1 A. Oh, never mind, never mind.

    2 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you personally did

    3 not see the killing of those two men?

    4 A. I did not.

    5 Q. And what you know about it is what you have

    6 been told by other people, other detainees?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Thank you. I want to now move to another

    9 topic, please, Witness B.

    10 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours will just give

    11 me a moment, please.

    12 Q. You've described to us how that evening, the

    13 first evening that you were there, people would be

    14 invited or asked to volunteer, and some three or four

    15 people would go out of the hangar. You, yourself, were

    16 not a member of such a group that night?

    17 A. I was not.

    18 Q. Again, in telling us about anything that may

    19 have happened outside, you are dependent on the

    20 accounts of other people as to what happened?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. I would like to move to, please, to the

    23 killing of two men after you had cleaned -- I'm sorry,

    24 let's just pause for a moment, please.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Just a moment,

  24. 1 please. I wish to consult with my colleagues.

    2 Mr. Greaves, the Judges, and I too, wish to

    3 observe that there are facts which the accused has

    4 pleaded guilty to, the murder of Huso and Smajil

    5 Zahirovic was confessed to by the accused; he plead

    6 guilty to it.

    7 MR. GREAVES: I have not suggested anything

    8 otherwise. Merely that he did not see the incident.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) But after all,

    10 you are introducing some evidence. I just wish to draw

    11 your attention to the facts that have been admitted;

    12 there is no point in insisting on them too much. That

    13 is just an observation on the part of the Judges.

    14 You may continue, Mr. Greaves.

    15 MR. GREAVES: I think my learned friend

    16 Mr. Londrovic has something to add.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes, please?

    18 MR. LONDROVIC: (Interpretation) Your

    19 Honours, I do apologise. It is true that the accused

    20 Jelisic has confessed regarding the Zahirovic brothers

    21 but only to the killing of one of the two brothers and

    22 not both of them, just one of the two brothers. So I

    23 do apologise. And he has, in fact, been charged with

    24 the killing of one of the brothers.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Let me check

  25. 1 the indictment. Mr. Tochilovsky, which count is it?

    2 Maybe I made a mistake; it's possible.

    3 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Can we have a couple of

    4 moments just to check it?

    5 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes.

    6 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour has the agreed

    7 statement of facts, I think if you look at paragraph 11

    8 of that -- I hope you've got a copy in French rather

    9 than English -- you will see the terms in which the

    10 agreement has been made.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I apologise.

    12 I was looking at paragraph 22, Counts 16 and 17,

    13 killing of Huso and Smajil Zahirovic. Maybe I'm wrong,

    14 but under this count, mention is made of two brothers;

    15 am I wrong?

    16 MR. GREAVES: The document which I have,

    17 which is the document that has been signed by counsel

    18 for the accused and for the Prosecution, contains a

    19 paragraph 11 which reads in the following way: "He

    20 will plead guilty to Counts 20 and 21 and admit that on

    21 about the 8th of May, 1992, he took two Muslim

    22 brothers, Huso and Smajil Zahirovic, outside of the

    23 main hangar at Luka camp and shot and killed one of

    24 them." That, as I understand it, and I see my learned

    25 friend Mr. Bowers is nodding in acknowledgement that

  26. 1 that is the agreement that has been reached, so I

    2 conclude that that is a correct statement of the

    3 position.

    4 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: That is exactly what the

    5 witness testified about yesterday, that he took two

    6 brothers and he heard the shot. So there are no

    7 inconsistencies in that.

    8 MR. GREAVES: And I make it clear that I'm

    9 not trying to suggest in any way that there is any

    10 inconsistency in what --

    11 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) But what I am

    12 troubled by, Mr. Prosecutor, is that when we had the

    13 initial appearance on the amended indictment, when

    14 paragraph 22 was read out, I had the impression that

    15 the accused recognised his guilt. He used the same

    16 wording. I don't have the transcript before me --

    17 maybe I am mistaken. Do you make a distinction between

    18 Counts 16 and 17 and 14 and 15?

    19 The indictment was read by the registrar as

    20 follows --

    21 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The difference between

    22 Counts 16 and 17 and Counts 15 and 14, 14 and 15, the

    23 difference is that in the first incident, Counts 14 and

    24 15, neither the accused nor the witnesses were sure

    25 which of the two victims were killed by Goran Jelisic.

  27. 1 So he pleaded guilty to killing one of those victims.

    2 With regard to Counts 16 and 17, again, he is

    3 charged with killing one of those brothers, and he

    4 admitted to that, killing one of those brothers. So

    5 there is no inconsistencies and no disagreements

    6 between the Defence and the Prosecution on these

    7 counts.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The difference

    9 being that the title, the title of your counts, at

    10 least in the French version, 16 and 17 say "killing of

    11 Huso and Smajil Zahirovic." If that is the case, we

    12 need to revise the text, at least the French text. I

    13 don't know what the English text says. Let me look.

    14 But in that case, it needs to be amended. Even in the

    15 English version, it says "killing of Huso and Smajil

    16 Zahirovic."

    17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, this

    18 indictment is not only against Goran Jelisic but also

    19 against another accused, and another accused

    20 participated in that, so we couldn't change the caption

    21 of the counts. That's what we were saying: Two

    22 victims were killed and two indictees are in this

    23 indictment. One of those victims was killed by the

    24 accused; the accused pled guilty to that.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well. In

  28. 1 that case, we are in agreement. Without knowing which

    2 one was killed by the accused, we agree that the

    3 accused admitted killing one of the two brothers, Huso

    4 and Smajil Zahirovic, without being able to determine

    5 today who was the victim of Goran Jelisic. So things

    6 are clear now. Thank you.

    7 You may continue, Mr. Greaves.

    8 MR. GREAVES: Can I also point out that the

    9 particulars of the count make it plain that the

    10 allegation against him is "shot and killed one of

    11 them," so his plea that he tendered to the Court was a

    12 proper plea to the indictment on the basis which has

    13 been agreed, and I see two of my learned friends nod in

    14 agreement of my assessment of that position.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) That's fine.

    16 We have no further problems. Please continue.

    17 MR. GREAVES:

    18 Q. Witness B, I'm sorry, I was going to ask you

    19 now, please, about the incident in which you saw the

    20 killing of two men after you had cleaned an office, and

    21 I'm sorry to have to go over a little bit of the

    22 details of that again.

    23 Would it be right to say that in the terms of

    24 your life, that was the most shocking thing that's ever

    25 happened to you?

  29. 1 A. Yes. It was the first time for me to witness

    2 a killing.

    3 Q. Would it be right to say that both during and

    4 after the incident, you were in a very confused and

    5 shocked state?

    6 A. Of course, I was. How couldn't I have been

    7 when I saw two young men being killed half a metre

    8 away? I stood there, I was immobile, I was wet from

    9 perspiration. I couldn't believe my own eyes, seeing

    10 one man kill another. I saw this with my own eyes; it

    11 is the truth. I am telling you what I saw.

    12 Q. Let me make it plain to you, Witness B, that

    13 I'm not for a moment suggesting that you are in any way

    14 being other than truthful about that incident, and also

    15 that I do not in any way criticise you for being

    16 confused and shocked at such an incident. I don't want

    17 you to think that I'm making light of it in any way.

    18 Do you understand that?

    19 A. I do. Please speak freely. I am here to

    20 tell the truth.

    21 Q. Would it be right to say that during the

    22 incident that you described to us, that you were

    23 focused on the fact of killing that was taking place in

    24 front of your eyes?

    25 A. I don't know how to answer that question.

  30. 1 Could you repeat it, please?

    2 Q. Yes. That there were two men whose lives

    3 were being put at an end, and just help us about that

    4 which you were focusing your attention on. Was it the

    5 two men who were there on the ground being killed? Was

    6 that what you were looking at in particular?

    7 A. They weren't lying on the ground. At first I

    8 was cleaning the office. There was my jacket on the

    9 traffic sign, and the traffic sign was next to the

    10 grate. I went up to it; I cleaned it well. I heard

    11 Goran's voice. I cleaned the office. I was going

    12 towards the traffic sign on which my jacket was

    13 hanging. Goran entered the hangar leading the young

    14 man, a young man, and he was going towards the grate

    15 where my jacket was. I went out to fetch my jacket,

    16 and I was struck dumb. This was the first time I saw

    17 anything like that.

    18 They reached the grate. He ordered the young

    19 man to kneel down, which he did, to put his head on the

    20 kerb, the grate was right next to the kerb, and I was

    21 standing there. I was about to pick up my jacket with

    22 my left hand, but I stopped dead, and the young man did

    23 whatever he was ordered to do. He put his forehead on

    24 the kerb, and he took out his pistol and shot him in

    25 the back of the head. The man went limp. He called

  31. 1 for three volunteers, who had to come out of the

    2 hangar, and I watched all this, and these volunteers

    3 carried the dead man behind the shed where they would

    4 throw the bodies.

    5 While these volunteers were carrying the man,

    6 he went back to the hangar for another fair, blond man

    7 with a broken nose. He told me, "Stay there." And I

    8 did. And he told this other man too to kneel down.

    9 The young man did so. He told him to put his head, to

    10 lean his head against the kerb. The young man didn't

    11 want to do that. Again, he shouted at him, "Put your

    12 head there," and then he got hold of him with his

    13 jacket, got hold of his jacket, and pushed his head

    14 down saying, "Don't move." The poor thing had to do

    15 that, and he killed this second young man. And again

    16 he called for three volunteers, and they went out and

    17 carried him. And then he said to me, "What are you

    18 doing there?" I couldn't speak. I had a choking

    19 feeling in my throat. I was trembling. I was wet with

    20 perspiration to see two young men being killed. And so

    21 with my head and my hands, I was indicating that I was

    22 cleaning the office. And went to see. I had cleaned

    23 it well. He said, "You have cleaned it well. You

    24 won't be killed." And he said, "Why are you so

    25 scared?" Of course, I had to be scared. If I had a

  32. 1 voice to speak with, I would have told him. And he

    2 said to me, "Since you have done the job well, you

    3 won't be killed. Go into the hangar."

    4 Q. Witness B, I don't doubt the details except

    5 in one regard, and I want to ask you about that now.

    6 What I want to suggest to you is that in the confusion

    7 and shock of this incident, you made a mistake about

    8 who it was who was carrying out the killing and that,

    9 in fact, it was not the accused Goran Jelisic who did

    10 it.

    11 A. It was Goran Jelisic. In the second case

    12 too. I saw it with my own eyes. I have him in my

    13 mind. It couldn't be anyone else but Goran, unless I

    14 had gone crazy.

    15 Q. Well, Witness B, just so that it's plain --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) What was the

    17 name of this victim, please? I wish to check --

    18 MR. GREAVES: There's been no evidence as to

    19 what the name of this person was.

    20 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: We don't have the name of

    21 the victim in the indictment.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well.

    23 Please continue. Proceed, Mr. Greaves.

    24 MR. GREAVES:

    25 Q. Just to conclude, I make it plain what the

  33. 1 case for the Defendant is on this point, is that you

    2 have made a mistake as to the name of the perpetrator

    3 of this crime.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Are we outside

    5 the indictment, Mr. Prosecutor?

    6 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

    7 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Mr. President, in our

    8 indictment in Count 1, it reads that in addition to

    9 those killings enumerated in all these counts, he

    10 killed other people, other detainees, other victims,

    11 which are not named in those counts. It is in our

    12 Count 1. So it is within the indictment.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you. So

    14 we are within the scope of the indictment.

    15 What is the detail over which you wish to

    16 question this victim, please? Are you trying to

    17 contest his version of events?

    18 MR. GREAVES: I contest it only in respect of

    19 one thing, which is as to who it was who committed

    20 these killings. I don't contest any other matter, and

    21 I make it plain both to Your Honour and to the witness

    22 that I am not calling him a liar, I am merely saying

    23 that he is mistaken, and that the reason for his being

    24 mistaken is his condition as a result of what he had

    25 seen.

  34. 1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well.

    2 Your observation is a pertinent one, Mr. Greaves.

    3 MR. GREAVES: I am now going to refer, Your

    4 Honour, if you have got the document which is the

    5 agreed basis of plea in front of you, I am now going to

    6 refer to paragraph 14 of that, and I think Your Honours

    7 will find it on page 5 of the English version. I'm not

    8 sure of the French version.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Which

    10 paragraph, Mr. Greaves?

    11 MR. GREAVES: Paragraph 14.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Mr. Greaves, I

    13 don't have this document at the moment. At any rate,

    14 we are going to take a 15-minute break. This will give

    15 me the opportunity to find this document, and I don't

    16 wish to go any further on this issue. I will only

    17 enter this debate once I have the French version of

    18 this basis of plea in French.

    19 We are going to take a break. As I was

    20 saying, a 15-minute break. This will give the

    21 registrar the opportunity to hand me the French version

    22 of this basis of plea, and then you can proceed,

    23 Mr. Greaves, with your cross-examination.

    24 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.

    25 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.

  35. 1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The hearing is

    2 resumed. Can the accused be brought in, please?

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Mr. Greaves,

    5 thanks to the Registrar's efforts, the Judges now have

    6 the French version of the agreed basis of plea. You

    7 were referring us to paragraph 14; is that right?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, paragraph 14.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The murder of

    10 Stipo Glavocevic; is that right, Mr. Greaves.

    11 MR. GREAVES: That's the one I'm referring to

    12 the witness.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you very

    14 much.

    15 MR. GREAVES:

    16 Q. Witness B, I want to turn now to the incident

    17 in which a man returned to the hangar with an ear which

    18 had been cut off, and I think you will recall having

    19 told us about that incident yesterday.

    20 A. (Nodding)

    21 Q. Can I just remind you of this: The court

    22 reporters can't write down just a nod. It will be

    23 helpful if you say "Yes" or "No" to each question. Can

    24 you remember to do that, please, Witness B?

    25 A. I said "Yes."

  36. 1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The court

    2 reporters are extremely efficient, Mr. Greaves, and

    3 they specify when the witness nods or makes a gesture,

    4 but it is preferable, of course, for the witness to

    5 speak out loud when answering your questions.

    6 Witness B, please try to make an effort and

    7 speak out.

    8 MR. GREAVES:

    9 Q. The man whom you told us about, do you know

    10 his name?

    11 A. I did not know.

    12 Q. Did you subsequently learn it?

    13 A. I later learned it.

    14 Q. Would you agree with me that the name of that

    15 man was Stipo or Stjepo Glavocevic?

    16 A. Stipo, even though I did not know this man at

    17 all.

    18 Q. But that was the name that you subsequently

    19 learned?

    20 A. Yes, from those who knew him.

    21 Q. Witness B, you described how, during the

    22 course of the incident, Mr. Jelisic said, "You are not

    23 people. You are nothing. You should all be killed."

    24 It's right, isn't it, that --

    25 A. Yes.

  37. 1 Q. -- it's right, isn't it, that you told the

    2 investigators that what he said was, "You are not men.

    3 You are afraid to kill him. I should kill you all."

    4 Do you accept that?

    5 A. Yes, he said that. He was giving us a pistol

    6 to kill him but we didn't dare.

    7 Q. And what I want to go on to ask you is this:

    8 That after Goran had said that, the man Stipo said,

    9 "Brothers, friends, please kill me. I prefer you to

    10 kill me than these criminals," and that's what you told

    11 the investigators?

    12 A. Yes, that's how I said it. He begged us. He

    13 said, "Brothers, Muslims, or if there are any Croats

    14 here, I prefer that any of you kill me than this

    15 criminal," and then Goran offered each one of us his

    16 pistol to kill him, and then he said, "What kind of

    17 people are you? You can't kill your own even."

    18 Q. Witness B, I want to turn now to the killing

    19 of the man called Ismail Rebic and the Serb who were

    20 together. Again, in the case of that incident, it's

    21 right, isn't it, that you, yourself, did not witness

    22 the killing of either of those two men?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And again in relation to those matters, the

    25 killing of either of those two men, you rely on what

  38. 1 others have told you?

    2 A. Yes, those who carried out those bodies.

    3 Q. Do you accept that you told investigators in

    4 relation to that matter that someone killed them,

    5 implying that you did not know who it was who had done

    6 it?

    7 A. I did not see with my own eyes, but they were

    8 killed and they were taken out.

    9 Q. So you don't know who did it?

    10 A. I don't know. I did not see it with my own

    11 eyes, but they were killed and they were carried out.

    12 I washed the blood away.

    13 Q. Thank you, Witness B. I want now to explore

    14 with you, if we may, please, the time scale within

    15 which all the incidents which you have told us about

    16 happened. Would you accept that, having arrived on the

    17 8th of May at Luka detention camp, all the incidents of

    18 killing and mistreatment which you saw took place

    19 within -- about which you've told us yesterday, all

    20 those incidents took place within ten days of your

    21 arrival. Would you accept that?

    22 A. That is correct.

    23 Q. I want to turn now to the incident when a

    24 captain came to the camp and some orders were read out

    25 to you. You will recall telling us that someone you

  39. 1 described as a captain came to the camp, and Jelisic

    2 read out some orders to you. Do you remember that?

    3 A. I remember that well.

    4 Q. May I assume that you are of an age where you

    5 would have done your national service in the former JNA

    6 some years before the war?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. I'm not sure that I'm familiar with the

    9 length of service. How long do you have to do -- how

    10 long does national service take out of your life? Is

    11 it 18 months, two years?

    12 A. Eighteen months, that is what I served.

    13 Q. Were you in a regular infantry unit or what

    14 sort of unit were you in?

    15 A. I don't need to say that. I was a soldier.

    16 That's what's important.

    17 Q. I simply want to just know how you're able to

    18 recognise the different uniforms of the JNA. That's

    19 all I'm after. I'm not after any personal details,

    20 Witness B. I just want to know how you knew it was a

    21 captain.

    22 Let's put it this way: You're familiar with

    23 all the uniforms and the ranks of the army; is that

    24 fair?

    25 A. For me, he was a military officer, and I

  40. 1 believe he had three stars, so that would make him a

    2 captain, but in any event, he was an officer.

    3 Q. Can you give us any better description of the

    4 man, the captain, what sort of age he was, his

    5 appearance, his size?

    6 A. He was dark. He may have been about 180

    7 centimetres tall, and I don't know what else. He was

    8 good looking.

    9 Q. What sort of age was he, young, old, compared

    10 with yourself?

    11 A. He wasn't young; he wasn't old. He was 35 to

    12 40 maybe. But at any rate, he was not young or old.

    13 He was in the middle.

    14 Q. The uniform -- I'm sorry. I didn't let you

    15 finish and I apologise. The uniform he was wearing,

    16 Witness B, was that a formal uniform or a combat

    17 uniform?

    18 A. No, it was not a combat uniform. It was a

    19 regular officer's uniform.

    20 Q. Did he speak to the assembled people?

    21 A. No, he did not.

    22 Q. Is this correct, that he was there

    23 supervising the reading out of the orders by

    24 Mr. Jelisic?

    25 A. I know that he was there with Goran. He

  41. 1 stood there. Goran read it out. We listened. He read

    2 it out. We didn't know whether to believe it or not,

    3 but it turned out to be true, what Goran read. No

    4 person was killed in Luka by gunshot after that. There

    5 were some people later on who succumbed to beatings,

    6 but there was not a single person who was killed by a

    7 bullet after that.

    8 Q. What time of day was the visit of this

    9 captain and the reading out of these orders?

    10 A. This was in the morning, around 8.00, I

    11 couldn't tell you exactly, but around that time.

    12 Q. Had you ever seen the captain before?

    13 A. No, I had not.

    14 Q. Did you ever see him again?

    15 A. No, no, after he left, I never saw him again,

    16 ever.

    17 Q. Were he and Mr. Jelisic already there when

    18 you were assembled or did they come in or what? Can

    19 you just describe how they arrived to come and give

    20 this information to you?

    21 A. Yes, of course. Jelisic entered, and he

    22 walked in with him on his right. We lined up. Jelisic

    23 read it out, and the officer just stood there

    24 observing. When Jelisic finished reading, they both

    25 turned about and left the hangar. He said nothing. He

  42. 1 just observed.

    2 Q. Did the captain give Mr. Jelisic the document

    3 to read out to you? Did you see him do that?

    4 A. No, Goran had it in his hand. It was in

    5 Goran's hands.

    6 Q. Can you just help us with this: Other

    7 members of the staff of the detention facility, did you

    8 have an opportunity to see them on a regular basis?

    9 A. What staff?

    10 Q. By "staff," I mean guards and the personnel

    11 who were in charge of the camp, apart from

    12 Mr. Jelisic.

    13 A. It was just Goran and this officer who

    14 entered the hangar. The guards were outside. I only

    15 saw the two of them, and Goran read out from this

    16 paper, and they left. The officer never spoke.

    17 Q. I'm sorry, Witness B, it's my fault entirely,

    18 and I do apologise. I did not ask that question well.

    19 I'm going to ask it again. In general terms, apart

    20 from Mr. Jelisic, when you were in the camp, did you

    21 see other personnel who were part of the camp staff --

    22 A. No, I did not.

    23 Q. -- on days other than this or did you only

    24 see Mr. Jelisic?

    25 A. Mr. Jelisic was there.

  43. 1 Q. Were there other guards, apart from

    2 Mr. Jelisic, not on this particular day but in general,

    3 in the camp?

    4 A. There were guards, of course. When Jelisic

    5 was not around, there were guards around --

    6 Q. From what --

    7 A. -- and the warden was there.

    8 Q. From what you were able to see, was the

    9 captain part of the staff of the camp or had he come

    10 from somewhere else?

    11 A. He was not.

    12 Q. He wasn't part of the staff?

    13 A. No, he wasn't. I saw him for the first time,

    14 and after he left, I never saw that man again.

    15 Q. Can you help us to try and fix the date on

    16 which this incident took place, when the captain came?

    17 Again, would that be within ten days of your arrival at

    18 the camp?

    19 A. That is correct.

    20 Q. If you were able to fix it more precisely

    21 than that, what date would you say it was, the 17th,

    22 18th of May?

    23 A. I believe so because I was there on the 18th,

    24 and it wasn't late. I know it was in May. It must

    25 have been either the 17th or the 18th, one of those two

  44. 1 days.

    2 Q. I want to turn very briefly now to the time

    3 when you were in the camp at Batkovic, Witness B. You

    4 told the Court yesterday that at some date in September

    5 you saw Mr. Jelisic at Batkovic camp. What I want to

    6 suggest to you is that you're mistaken about having

    7 seen Mr. Jelisic at Batkovic camp.

    8 A. I am not mistaken. I saw him. I was lying

    9 down, and I saw him when he came to hangar 2. He was

    10 first in hangar 1 looking for people from Brcko who had

    11 been there in May at Luka. I was not in that hangar.

    12 Then he moved to hangar 2 where I was, and we were

    13 there. We heard that he had been down there, and then

    14 he entered the hangar and asked whether there were any

    15 people from Brcko who were in the camp in May. The

    16 guards said that there were none, that all had been

    17 exchanged, and he said, "It is not possible that there

    18 are none left," and they repeated, "Yes, they were all

    19 exchanged."

    20 We kept on lying on the ground. Goran was

    21 well-known. I recognised him by his voice. He was

    22 looking for the people from Brcko, and he was asking,

    23 "How come there are none from Brcko," and the guards

    24 said, "No, all of those who were at Luka had been

    25 exchanged," and then he left.

  45. 1 Q. Do you accept, Witness B, that you didn't

    2 mention the visit of Mr. Jelisic to the Batkovic camp

    3 to the investigators in this case?

    4 A. The question is not clear to me. What do you

    5 mean?

    6 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that you didn't

    7 tell the investigators about that incident and that

    8 it's not recorded by them.

    9 A. I --

    10 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Just a

    11 second. I need to consult with my colleagues,

    12 Mr. Greaves.

    13 Mr. Greaves, we are somewhat concerned. It's

    14 not the first time you've gone over what has been or

    15 what has not been said to the investigators of the

    16 Office of the Prosecutor. Remember that what is most

    17 important for the Judges is to have elements which

    18 enable them to establish the truth.

    19 Yesterday before us, the witness stated that

    20 Goran Jelisic, the accused, came to the Batkovic camp.

    21 He just explained to you what has happened. You are

    22 allowed to contradict this particular point, but we

    23 have already gone over this point a number of times.

    24 It is a very important issue, but it's not the key

    25 issue in this case.

  46. 1 Would you please try to put your question to

    2 the witness in another way? If you want to contest his

    3 answer, please tell us why and try to explain.

    4 The other thing we would like to specify is

    5 that we would like this cross-examination to be over

    6 quickly because remember that we are not sitting

    7 tomorrow or Friday, and we wouldn't like this witness

    8 to have to come back in January. Do remember that the

    9 Judges will have some questions to put to the witness.

    10 It is now 4.25; we will work until 6.30, more or less.

    11 We have two hours left. We will need to take another

    12 20-minute break at some point. This leaves us with one

    13 hour and 40 minutes. So that's not that much time.

    14 Don't worry so much about what has been said

    15 by the witness to the investigators. Please focus on

    16 how you would like to explain the fact that you think

    17 that the witness is not saying precisely what happened.

    18 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, his answer has

    19 been that he doesn't accept my proposition. I'm going

    20 to move on.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Excellent.

    22 The Judges will decide on that particular issue at the

    23 relevant time.

    24 MR. GREAVES: And if I can reassure Your

    25 Honour, I am anticipating finishing well within the

  47. 1 time that you specified.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Excellent.

    3 Thank you, Mr. Greaves. My colleagues and myself thank

    4 you.

    5 MR. GREAVES:

    6 Q. Witness B, I would like to move now, please,

    7 to the interrogation that was conducted with you. Was

    8 it only on one occasion that you were interrogated?

    9 A. Twice.

    10 Q. Perhaps you can help us about the time

    11 scale. Were you interrogated immediately upon arrival

    12 or within a short space of time after your arrival?

    13 A. Within two days.

    14 Q. And --

    15 A. It must have been the 10th or 11th.

    16 Q. I'm sorry, I apologise. I interrupted you.

    17 Whereabouts in the camp were you interrogated?

    18 A. In the office across from where we were kept.

    19 Q. On that occasion, how long did the

    20 interrogation last for?

    21 A. The first time, it lasted about 15 minutes;

    22 and the second time, it was similar. I was saying why

    23 we had stayed behind, whether we had weapons. That's

    24 how it was.

    25 Q. Can I just take each one at a time? Who was

  48. 1 it who conducted the first interrogation? Was it one

    2 person alone or more than one person?

    3 A. There were three persons. I knew one of them

    4 but not the other two.

    5 Q. Who was the person whom you knew?

    6 A. I can't say the name right now because it has

    7 been six or seven years now.

    8 Q. All right.

    9 A. It's in the statement.

    10 Q. It may be that it doesn't matter, but how had

    11 you known the person? Was he someone you had come

    12 across in your business, or how had you known him?

    13 A. He was from Brcko. He was from Brcko.

    14 Q. Was he a member of the military or a police

    15 officer or what was he?

    16 A. I don't know. He wore civilian clothes. He

    17 did not wear a military uniform; just civilian clothes.

    18 Q. What about the other two; were they in

    19 uniform of any kind or were they also civilians?

    20 A. All three wore civilian clothes.

    21 Q. You very briefly touched on the sort of

    22 questions that you were asked. Would it be right that

    23 you were asked if you were a member of the SDA, for

    24 example?

    25 A. Yes, we were asked, and I told him that I was

  49. 1 not, since I was not. I was in SDP. I told them like

    2 it was.

    3 Q. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I just want to

    4 know what the nature of the questions was.

    5 Can I just move back slightly? Can I perhaps

    6 refresh your memory with the name Dragica; would that

    7 be the name that you recall?

    8 A. Dragica, yes.

    9 Q. Dragica. Thank you. Were some of the

    10 questions also as to whether you had been a member of

    11 any military unit such as the Green Berets or a

    12 resistance unit of some kind?

    13 A. I was not asked that. Dragica just asked me,

    14 "How come you stayed behind at home? Do you have

    15 weapons?" And I told him that I did not because I did

    16 not.

    17 Q. So they were interested in what your

    18 activities had been before the war and what activities

    19 you may have been involved in --

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. -- but your answer was that you hadn't been

    22 involved in anything of that sort?

    23 A. In nothing of any kind.

    24 Q. Can I now ask you about the second

    25 interrogation? Can you fix a date for that? How soon

  50. 1 after the first one was it?

    2 A. The first one was, I think, on the second

    3 day, and Kole was the interrogator. I know him by the

    4 name of Kole. He interrogated me like Dragica did, why

    5 we had stayed behind, whether we had weapons. I said

    6 we didn't. I said we had stayed because I didn't

    7 believe there would be a war. I stayed in my home to

    8 save what little I had because I thought it would be

    9 over quickly, like in Bijeljina. I had no weapons. I

    10 never had any weapons nor did it ever occur to me to

    11 obtain any.

    12 And this Kole offered me fruit juice. I had

    13 it. I was telling them the truth. I told them why I

    14 had stayed. I didn't believe there would be a war. I

    15 sent my wife and children to the village and I stayed

    16 at home. And he said to me, this Kole, that there were

    17 no more discharge papers and that I would be going to

    18 the other part of the hangar where we would wait to be

    19 exchanged and to work in a work unit, that's all.

    20 Q. I was asking if you can give us an

    21 approximate date how soon after the first interrogation

    22 did the second one take place?

    23 A. I think it was the 12th or the 13th because

    24 there were two interrogations on two consecutive days,

    25 one after the other.

  51. 1 Q. Was this man Kole, was he alone on that

    2 occasion or were there other people with him?

    3 A. He was the director at the time, and there

    4 were some others there, but I don't know any of them.

    5 They were sitting with him and questioning. They were

    6 very good to us. They asked us to tell the truth, and

    7 that is what I did. I told them the truth.

    8 Q. And when you say there were others, how many

    9 others were sitting there with him?

    10 A. Two or three men, soldiers, but they didn't

    11 interfere in the questioning. They just sat there.

    12 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now, please,

    13 Witness B, if I may, to the last occasion when you saw

    14 Mr. Jelisic in Luka detention camp. Is this correct,

    15 that whilst you were at the camp, he was replaced by a

    16 man called Vojkan?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And Vojkan himself was replaced within about

    19 two or three days by another person called Kosta?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. It may be that you don't know the answer to

    22 this question, but if you do, please help us: Are you

    23 able to say who it was who caused, first of all,

    24 Mr. Jelisic to be replaced?

    25 A. I don't know.

  52. 1 Q. Was there any talk in the camp amongst the

    2 prisoners about how he had come to be replaced?

    3 A. We knew, when Vojkan came in, he was a good

    4 young man, a good-looking one. I would like to kiss

    5 that man. He consoled us and he was the best, but he

    6 wasn't there with us for long. He was replaced

    7 immediately because they saw that he was always with us

    8 in the hangar. He encouraged us. He said he had spent

    9 his whole life with Muslims. He was a very good young

    10 man. I would love to see that Vojkan again because he

    11 was a father and a mother to us. When he entered, we

    12 would all gather round him like children and he would

    13 encourage us, try to keep our spirits up, this Vojkan,

    14 and because he was so good with us, they replaced him.

    15 Q. When you say "they," who do you mean by

    16 "they" and how do you know --

    17 A. Major Vojkan. I know the man. I watched

    18 him. He was always with us, this Vojkan.

    19 Q. Vojkan was a military officer, was he?

    20 A. I don't know, but I know that they called him

    21 Major Vojkan, and the most important thing for me is

    22 that he was a good man.

    23 Q. You told us just a moment or two ago that

    24 "they" replaced him. Who do you mean by "they"?

    25 A. I don't know. I don't know who replaced

  53. 1 him. We were in the hangar. And what was happening, I

    2 don't know. I can't tell you who replaced him when I

    3 don't know.

    4 Q. Was there any conversation amongst your

    5 fellow detainees about that issue, as to how he had

    6 come to be replaced?

    7 A. I don't know. How could we know? All that

    8 we know is when somebody comes in and introduces

    9 himself and says, "I am so and so. As of today, you

    10 have to do as I tell you" because they changed.

    11 Q. Would you accept that the departure of

    12 Mr. Jelisic from Luka detention camp was at about the

    13 same time as or shortly after the captain had been

    14 there and orders were given not to kill anybody

    15 anymore? Would that be right?

    16 A. I don't know. Goran would come again, but

    17 there was no more killing with bullets. He would come

    18 to the hangar.

    19 Q. Thank you. Can I just ask you this finally,

    20 please: During the time that you were at Luka

    21 detention facility, is this right, that as far as you

    22 know, he was not always in the camp; in other words, he

    23 didn't stay there permanently, there were times when he

    24 was out of the camp? If you don't know the answer to

    25 that, just say that you don't know.

  54. 1 A. Are you asking me about Goran?

    2 Q. Yes. Yes, Witness B.

    3 A. He wasn't there all the time. He would go

    4 into town. He would come by. That's all I know.

    5 Q. Finally, Witness B, I want to ask you about

    6 three particular individuals. First of all, a man

    7 called Ivan, who had a ponytail. Did you know such a

    8 person in the camp as a member of the personnel?

    9 A. He had a ponytail. I didn't know his name

    10 was Ivan. We called him Cupo. He had long hair tied

    11 up at the back. So it is for the first time now that I

    12 hear that name.

    13 Q. It may be that I've got the name wrong, but

    14 certainly there was somebody with a ponytail called

    15 Cupo; that's what you're telling us?

    16 A. Yes, yes.

    17 Q. What was his role in the camp? Was he a

    18 guard, an officer, or what?

    19 A. I can't tell you. He wasn't there all the

    20 time in Luka, but he would come in. He was terrible.

    21 He appeared to have a slight limp. He went around

    22 arrogantly and he would beat some of the prisoners.

    23 Q. I don't want you to go into the detail of

    24 what this particular man did, I just simply want to

    25 establish that he was there and that he took part in

  55. 1 some of the mistreatment of prisoners. All right,

    2 Witness B?

    3 Can I ask you now about another man called

    4 Miroslav? Was there a guard or member of the personnel

    5 called Miroslav that you were aware of?

    6 A. I don't remember that name at all.

    7 Q. All right. And the third one I want to ask

    8 you about was a man called Sok. Do you remember him?

    9 A. Sok?

    10 Q. And I think possibly his first name may have

    11 been Enver.

    12 A. Yes, I know.

    13 Q. What was his position, as far as you could

    14 see?

    15 A. He wasn't like Cupo. He also beat people in

    16 the hangar. I was surprised to learn that his name was

    17 Enver because that is a Muslim name, so I assumed, I

    18 don't know what, but I was surprised to learn that his

    19 name was Enver because he also beat people in the camp.

    20 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours could give me a

    21 moment, please?

    22 Your Honour, those are all the questions that

    23 I have. Can I thank Witness B and wish him a safe

    24 journey home.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you,

  56. 1 Mr. Greaves.

    2 I should now like to turn to the Prosecutor.

    3 Mr. Tochilovsky, would you like to exercise your right

    4 to re-examine the witness?

    5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: No, the Prosecution doesn't

    6 have any further questions for the witness.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you. In

    8 that case, I turn to my colleagues.

    9 Judge Riad, do you have any questions for the

    10 witness?

    11 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Yes,

    12 Mr. President. Thank you.

    13 Good afternoon, Witness B. Can you hear me?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) I have several

    16 questions for you but global ones. You have stated

    17 that Mr. Jelisic considered himself to be the most

    18 powerful person in the world, at least in Brcko this

    19 was evident.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Do you agree

    22 with that?

    23 A. Yes, I do. In Brcko, in Luka.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Very well. So

    25 the others obeyed him?

  57. 1 A. Everybody had to obey him.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) And during the

    3 cross-examination, you expressed some reserve with

    4 regard some of the killings. You said that you learnt

    5 from others, those who carried the bodies, that it was

    6 Jelisic who did the killing, but you yourself didn't

    7 see that. And these others -- and according to the

    8 doubt expressed by the Defence counsel that it may not

    9 have been Jelisic, those who killed -- could they have

    10 been Jelisic's subordinates or people coming from

    11 outside? Could it have been under his orders or under

    12 somebody else's orders, against Jelisic's will, shall

    13 we say, or other colleagues' of his?

    14 A. I don't know. Whoever carried that body -- I

    15 carried four bodies and I saw Goran four times, and

    16 whoever carried bodies said that it had been Goran,

    17 that he was there by the body. Nobody saw anybody else

    18 doing the killings.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Did he have any

    20 people to assist him and who he gave orders to?

    21 A. I don't know that.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) You also said

    23 during the cross-examination that you heard the voice

    24 of Jelisic, if I recall well, when he was giving orders

    25 to somebody to prepare their pistols.

  58. 1 A. I didn't hear that. He didn't give any

    2 orders. Before he killed this Stipo, he did ask us to

    3 kill Stipo, but we didn't dare. But whether he gave

    4 orders to anyone else, I don't know. I don't know

    5 whether he ordered anybody to kill.

    6 JUDGE RIAD: [No interpretation provided]

    7 A. I don't know how to put it. I think that he

    8 didn't force any one of his own to kill because he was

    9 the most powerful there. Even his own were afraid of

    10 him.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) I come back to

    12 my initial question: So he was the absolute master in

    13 that place?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) You also said

    16 that Jelisic claimed that he had killed a certain

    17 number of victims, I think it was you who said 76 or

    18 86, but that wasn't the figure that he wanted to

    19 accomplish. However, he came with that Serbian officer

    20 to read the order to stop the killings. This order,

    21 did it come from him, do you think, or was it imposed

    22 upon him contrary to his own will?

    23 A. I don't know that. I don't know.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) This Serb

    25 officer, was he a Serb, according to you?

  59. 1 A. I don't know. But anyway, he was wearing an

    2 officer's uniform. He probably was, but I don't know.

    3 I don't know his name.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Yes. But he

    5 seemed to have some authority over Jelisic.

    6 A. I can't tell you.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) You also said

    8 that Jelisic left shortly after this order, that he

    9 left the Luka camp; therefore, his mission was

    10 terminated, or was he sent away? What did it seem to

    11 you to be?

    12 A. When he read this order, he left the

    13 hangar -- of course, he was seen around town -- he

    14 would come back to the hangar but he wouldn't kill

    15 anyone. He would drop in because Kole was the director

    16 after that. But anyway, there were no more killings.

    17 He would come and go. He would walk around. He would

    18 come to Luka. But ever since the date the order was

    19 read, he didn't do any killing in Luka. I don't know

    20 what happened anywhere else because I didn't see it.

    21 But I was talking about Luka.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) And my last

    23 question: You said there were between 400 and 500

    24 detainees in the hangar and that about 100 were

    25 released. What happened to the remaining 300 or 400;

  60. 1 do you have any idea whether they disappeared or

    2 whether they were found alive or what happened to them?

    3 A. Those who remained alive were alive, but some

    4 people did go missing, of course. I don't know where

    5 they went to, but they disappeared. In any case, they

    6 didn't come back to the hangar. They left the hangar.

    7 They were taken away and they didn't come back.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) I'm talking

    9 about those who were released and others who were taken

    10 out, or was there a difference between them, or perhaps

    11 you don't know who was released and those who went

    12 missing?

    13 A. Those who were released home went home and

    14 then they would take out groups of 20 or 30 men who

    15 were also released, but later on, those men were

    16 brought back into the hangar, some of them who had been

    17 released.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    20 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues, you have the floor.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    22 Mr. President. I have at least three questions.

    23 Witness, I shall follow on to the question

    24 put to you by my colleague, Judge Riad, to ask you how

    25 did you know that the people were released?

  61. 1 A. I saw them being called out by name and given

    2 these discharge papers to go home. I begged God that I

    3 be among the lucky ones to be sent home. People came

    4 with these certificates allowing them to go home.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) After your

    6 release from the camp, did you find the people who were

    7 released before, before you?

    8 A. When I left the camp, I came across a person

    9 who was with me in the camp. I stayed with him in his

    10 home because I didn't dare stay in my own because there

    11 was a frontline in my street. So we stayed there for

    12 about 20 days, we stayed in these houses. The army

    13 came; two soldiers came. They took us out. It was

    14 morning. We entered a bus, and we were taken to

    15 Batkovici.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) You used,

    17 as a reference number to calculate the number of

    18 detainees in the camp, a box into which you threw your

    19 personal documents; do you remember that? There was a

    20 box.

    21 A. Yes, I remember.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Could you

    23 roughly tell us the size of that box?

    24 A. It was maybe half a metre by a half a metre

    25 and it was about 30 centimetres deep and it was full as

  62. 1 we threw our documents into it.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) I don't

    3 know whether I understood you well. You put your

    4 identity card to the side because the box was already

    5 full.

    6 A. Yes, it was full, the box was full.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Therefore,

    8 out of this number and among all these detainees, you

    9 said that the majority were Muslim but there were also

    10 a few Croats; is that true?

    11 A. Yes, correct, but the majority were Muslims,

    12 by far the greatest number were Muslim. There were few

    13 Croats.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Were there

    15 any Serbs?

    16 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't say.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) And when

    18 some detainees were released, were the Croats released

    19 or did they stay behind as well?

    20 A. They read out the names of people from their

    21 ID cards. I didn't remember whether there were any

    22 Croats, but I do believe that some did go, that a large

    23 number of them were released. But by far, most of the

    24 detainees were Muslims; there were very few Croats.

    25 The Muslims were the largest group.

  63. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) So you

    2 know when somebody is a Croat or not when you hear the

    3 name; is that so? Is it by the names that you knew

    4 whether a person was a Muslim or a Croat?

    5 A. Yes, of course I would know.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: (Interpretation) Thank

    7 you. I have no further questions. Thank you,

    8 Mr. President.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Judge Riad has

    10 another question for you.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Witness, how

    12 can you distinguish between those who left to be free,

    13 to be released, and those who were taken out to be

    14 executed when you were asked to get out of the hangar?

    15 How could you tell the difference?

    16 A. There were people whose names were read out,

    17 and they were told that they would be given these

    18 papers, discharge papers, and they did receive those

    19 papers, and the people who were called out to come out

    20 of the hangar did not return. They never came back to

    21 the hangar, so I don't know where they went.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Neither of them

    23 came back to the hangar so how could you know who

    24 survived and who was killed?

    25 A. On that day, the people whose names were

  64. 1 called out did not come back. They left. They went

    2 home. After a few days, I saw some of them come back

    3 because they said that they had been released and then

    4 captured again in their homes and brought back.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) But the number

    6 of those killed, you said 76 or 86, was that the number

    7 that Jelisic himself mentioned? It wasn't you who

    8 counted these victims. You said yourself that he

    9 declared that he had killed between 76 and 86 people,

    10 but that was not his ultimate target.

    11 A. Yes.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Did he invent

    13 this number?

    14 A. I don't know. I simply heard him say that.

    15 I don't know what the target figure he had in mind

    16 was. We just listened to what he was saying. We

    17 didn't dare say anything. We just had to watch and

    18 listen.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    21 Witness B. You have suffered a great many things. I

    22 won't have any questions for you. You have been asked

    23 many questions. The Judges hope that you will have a

    24 safe journey home, that you will be able to restore

    25 some tranquillity to your life.

  65. 1 Thank you once again for coming to testify in

    2 this Tribunal, and rest assured that all protective

    3 measures have been taken so that you shouldn't have any

    4 consequences from the fact of having the courage to

    5 come here.

    6 Stay seated for awhile while the Judges leave

    7 for the courtroom, and we will now have a 20-minute

    8 break.

    9 --- Recess taken at 5.02 p.m.

    10 --- On resuming at 5.35 p.m.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) The hearing is

    12 resumed. Can the accused be brought in, please?

    13 (The accused entered court)

    14 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) As everybody

    15 has noticed, there is one Judge missing. I have to

    16 inform you all of the fact that Judge Riad has been

    17 taken ill very suddenly. It is, therefore, necessary

    18 for him to go to the hospital to have a number of

    19 check-ups. In this situation, of course, we cannot

    20 proceed with the hearing. In fact, I have been told by

    21 the Registry that the situation is, in fact, quite one

    22 that is agreeable to the Prosecution in the sense that

    23 they don't have to call in another new witness.

    24 MR. BOWERS: Yes, that is correct, Your

    25 Honour.

  66. 1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Mr. Greaves?

    2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, may I, on behalf

    3 of the Defence, express the wish that Judge Riad is

    4 going to be fit and well soon, and I hope that I can

    5 say that on behalf of myself and my colleagues from the

    6 Prosecution.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I'm sure that

    8 everybody sympathises with Judge Riad's situation. We

    9 all greatly appreciate his intelligence and his

    10 kindness, and I will transmit our best wishes to Judge

    11 Riad.

    12 We will suspend the hearing, and I'm sure,

    13 Mr. Greaves, this will enable you to fully take note of

    14 all the particulars of this case, and I think we will

    15 meet again on January 25th, if I'm not mistaken.

    16 Mr. Registrar, could you help us with that?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, we will sit from the

    18 25th to the 29th of January.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Yes, we will

    20 meet again on January 25th at 2.00 in the afternoon.

    21 Mr. Greaves, anything you wish to add?

    22 MR. GREAVES: I thank you for your good

    23 wishes. I am catching up rapidly.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I'm sure you

    25 will. I'm sure that Judge Riad will be happy to know

  67. 1 that everybody is agreeing to work hard until we meet

    2 again. I am about to suspend the hearing.

    3 I would just like to add that my colleagues

    4 and myself have one wish we would like to express.

    5 When witnesses are brought in and when you put

    6 questions to the witnesses, we would like these

    7 questions to be focused on the issue of genocide. This

    8 is the key issue in this case. Genocide is what

    9 Mr. Jelisic is accused of. Therefore, in the

    10 examination-in-chief or in cross-examination, what

    11 interests us most is this particular issue, the

    12 elements which constitute the crime of genocide. You

    13 have a few weeks to think about this particular issue.

    14 I would just like to turn to the accused.

    15 Mr. Jelisic, could you please stand up? How do you

    16 feel, Mr. Jelisic, and how is life in the detention

    17 unit?

    18 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Your Honour, the things in

    19 the detention unit are going very well.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) Very well

    21 then.

    22 THE ACCUSED: And if I may be allowed, on my

    23 own behalf, to say that I am sorry for the condition

    24 that befell Judge Riad and to wish him a speedy

    25 recovery.

  68. 1 JUDGE JORDA: (Interpretation) I thank you on

    2 his behalf.

    3 The hearing is suspended. We will meet again

    4 on January 25th at 2.00 in the afternoon.

    5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    6 5.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

    7 the 25th day of January, 1998 at

    8 2.00 p.m.