1. 1 Monday, 30th August, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.06 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    5 seated.

    6 Mr. Registrar, would you have the accused

    7 brought in, please.

    8 [The accused entered court]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    10 resume our work, which we haven't been able to work

    11 with for quite a while for various reasons.

    12 First of all, I want to be sure the

    13 interpreters can hear me. I can't see them as clearly

    14 as I could in the other courtroom, but I do recognise

    15 their voices. The Office of the Prosecutor, can you

    16 hear the Judges, representatives of the Office of the

    17 Prosecutor?

    18 MR. NICE: Yes, thank you.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    20 Thank you, Mr. Nice.

    21 Turning to the Defence, can you hear me,

    22 represented by Mr. Greaves and Mr. Londrovic? Can the

    23 accused hear me as well?

    24 We can now resume, and I would like first to

    25 welcome back amongst us Judge Riad.

  2. 1 We will start with a motion that was filed on

    2 Friday, a Defence motion. Perhaps Mr. Greaves could

    3 give us some further information about it, and then we

    4 will hear whatever comments the Prosecutor wishes to

    5 make.

    6 I believe that you want this trial to be

    7 postponed. Is that correct? Could you explain what

    8 you mean? You know this trial has already been

    9 interrupted several times. Therefore, we would ask

    10 that you explain why you're making this request. I'm

    11 sure your reasons are well founded, but after that the

    12 Prosecution will respond and the Judges will take their

    13 decisions, as it should be.

    14 Mr. Greaves?

    15 MR. GREAVES: Of course, and I'm most

    16 grateful to Your Honour for introducing the matter in a

    17 concise way. Thank you very much for that.

    18 Your Honour, the position is this, that Your

    19 Honour has correctly identified the purpose of the

    20 motion as one to adjourn the trial. Can I say

    21 straightaway that it is not an application that we make

    22 lightly at all for the obvious reasons that Your Honour

    23 has mentioned and also because of the obvious point

    24 about witnesses who may be inconvenienced if the motion

    25 succeeds, and we have only filed this motion after

  3. 1 giving it some considerable and careful thought.

    2 The position is this: If I just explain a

    3 little bit about the background, Your Honours will

    4 forgive me for taking a little time.

    5 One of the items upon which the Prosecution

    6 has indicated that it relies to prove the crime of

    7 genocide against Goran Jelisic is a principal list of

    8 some 100 people who it is alleged were identified as

    9 being in a mass grave found in the Brcko district

    10 sometime in 1992, and also upon a second list of SDA or

    11 political persons, second list of some 39 names.

    12 The Defence infer from the existence of the

    13 list that the Prosecution's case in respect of them is

    14 that those people are exclusively Muslim by ethnic or

    15 religious background and that those 100 or 139 people

    16 were the victims of a deliberate killing as part of a

    17 concerted plan to destroy, in whole or in part, the

    18 Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    19 The Defence do not accept necessarily that

    20 those people are either all dead or that they were

    21 killed as part of such a plan, and as part of its case,

    22 the Defence intends to ask of witnesses from the Brcko

    23 area about the names of people on those lists and what

    24 they know, if anything, of the circumstances of their

    25 death or, indeed, whether they know that they are still

  4. 1 alive.

    2 At least one witness who is due to give

    3 evidence, and I won't mention his name, speaks of some

    4 of those named on the list in his witness statement,

    5 gives them by name, and describes them, for example, as

    6 having been killed during an evacuation. It may well

    7 be that from such a witness or from witnesses

    8 information may be forthcoming which demonstrates that

    9 far from having been killed as part of a deliberate

    10 policy of liquidating Muslims, the persons named on the

    11 lists, or some of them, were in fact killed during

    12 ordinary military operations, for example, by shelling

    13 directed by one party against the fixed positions of

    14 another, or during some localised skirmish between two

    15 opposing groups of infantry, or, indeed, that they may

    16 have died from causes unconnected with the strife in

    17 Brcko.

    18 Very recented, as recently as the 17th of

    19 August of this year, an investigator employed by the

    20 Defence, who is an advocate based in Belgrade in the

    21 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, became aware of the

    22 existence -- or having become aware of the existence of

    23 a court at a place called Maoca, which is in the

    24 Federation area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is a court

    25 which has been set up as an institution to deal with

  5. 1 legal matters that would otherwise be within the

    2 jurisdiction of the District Court at Brcko. It has

    3 been set up, as I understand it, for those people who

    4 live in the Federation who are afraid to travel to

    5 Brcko but who wish to deal with matters that would

    6 ordinarily come within the Brcko Court jurisdiction, in

    7 other words, people who used to live in Brcko, their

    8 affairs were in Brcko, but they are no longer

    9 sufficiently happy to go to Brcko to deal with those

    10 affairs, so a secondary court has been set up, as it

    11 were, in parallel.

    12 He went to that court on the 17th of August

    13 and, during the course of making enquires there, became

    14 aware that that court held quite large numbers of files

    15 which are applications by people to have members of

    16 their family declared dead. That, I suspect, is the

    17 kind of application which exists in every

    18 jurisdiction. I'm sure in each of Your Honours'

    19 jurisdictions there are applications where people have

    20 gone missing, to have them formally declared dead so

    21 that finality can be brought to the affairs of the

    22 person who has gone missing.

    23 Prior to discovering this fact, the Defence

    24 had believed that only the Court at Brcko had

    25 jurisdiction over such matters and that only the Court

  6. 1 at Brcko had been dealing with such matters.

    2 If I might just briefly describe what one

    3 might expect to accompany such applications, it is

    4 likely that each application will be supported, amongst

    5 other things, by affidavit evidence from members of the

    6 family and other persons who were aware of the

    7 circumstances of the death of the subject of the

    8 proceedings.

    9 From our own experience of other people, we

    10 have traced family members in respect of files held at

    11 Brcko of a similar nature. We believe that such

    12 information will reveal quite detailed information

    13 about the circumstances of the death of the people who

    14 are subject of the application, and in some of the

    15 cases that we've found, and we anticipate putting

    16 before the Court in due course, some of those reveal,

    17 far from being killed as part of a deliberate policy,

    18 they were in fact killed during the course, as I have

    19 described it, of military operation.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me. You

    21 are already making your defence arguments. I would

    22 like to know what the purpose of the request for the

    23 adjournment of this trial is. Let's get back to the

    24 purpose, or otherwise this is part of arguing or

    25 pleadings that you will have the opportunity to do.

  7. 1 What we are interested in right now, we, the Judges, is

    2 what your argument is, and that can be defended from

    3 your point of view, but we want to know whether that

    4 justifies adjournment of this trial. That's the real

    5 question at issue.

    6 MR. GREAVES: I hope that Your Honour will

    7 bear with me. I had just been explaining exactly the

    8 kernel of what the importance of these documents is,

    9 and if Your Honour will forgive me, I would like to

    10 make quite clear why they're important to the Defence.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. But

    12 please be concise, be precise, because for the time

    13 being, I take the liberty of telling to you that we are

    14 starting with considerations which are legitimate from

    15 the point of view of the defence of your client, but

    16 which for the time being do not explain why this trial

    17 should be adjourned. Therefore try to be concise and

    18 to move forward. I give you back the floor.

    19 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

    20 The investigator sought to get photocopies of

    21 the files. To cut a long story short, he was prevented

    22 from so doing and was invited to address himself to the

    23 Ministry of Justice. He has written to the Ministry of

    24 Justice; they have replied, declining to give him the

    25 documents and referring him back, effectively, to the

  8. 1 Court at Maoca to obtain these documents.

    2 We do not yet have the documents. The

    3 Defence are not, at the present time, therefore, in

    4 possession of some 59 files which deal with a part of

    5 the Prosecution's case, we say a major part of the

    6 Prosecution's case. The files may well contain

    7 evidence which contradicts that of Prosecution

    8 witnesses. They may contain evidence which

    9 demonstrates that people died otherwise than in the

    10 course of a deliberate policy of liquidation, of

    11 genocide. They may also lead to other people being

    12 found who can throw light on the death of others named

    13 on the list, and it may also contain information which

    14 undermines any assertion that a mass grave found in

    15 1992 can be related to these incidents.

    16 So these are matters which go to the absolute

    17 heart of the Prosecution's case, to wit, to genocide.

    18 We say that that is important evidence which ought to

    19 be in the possession of the Defence prior to it

    20 cross-examining Prosecution witnesses. Without full

    21 knowledge of what is in those files, it makes it, we

    22 say, very difficult to properly cross-examine

    23 Prosecution witnesses at this stage, particularly if,

    24 for example, information is contained in a file which

    25 reveals that somebody does know, one of the Prosecution

  9. 1 witnesses does know something about it, or if it

    2 contradicts that which is said by the Prosecution

    3 witness.

    4 As I say, we don't make the application

    5 lightly, but we respectfully submit that this

    6 information, going as it does to the heart of a major

    7 part of the Prosecution's case, we are entitled to ask

    8 witnesses what they know about those people, and we are

    9 entitled to ask those witnesses about that with full

    10 knowledge, and we submit that those files are

    11 absolutely fundamental to enable the Defence to

    12 properly cross-examine Prosecution witnesses, and that

    13 justice cannot be done unless we are in a position to

    14 do that.

    15 I have no doubt complaint will be

    16 made: "Well, this comes all very late in the day."

    17 Could I remind Your Honour that for some two and a half

    18 months of this year, investigators who live in Belgrade

    19 have not exactly been able freely to travel in the

    20 Federation area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that has

    21 made a considerable difference to the efficiency with

    22 which we have been able to discharge our duties of

    23 investigating these matters, and that in part explains

    24 why it's only lately that our investigator has been

    25 able to travel freely and go to this court in Maoca.

  10. 1 That's one of the problems that has faced us, as I

    2 suspect it's faced other Defence teams in other trials

    3 in this unfortunate summer that we've had.

    4 Your Honour, that's the application.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    6 Mr. Greaves. Although the essential purpose of this

    7 motion is an adjournment because in light of what is

    8 going on in the region, in respect of the files of

    9 those who are now missing, the Defence would need those

    10 files so that its own investigators could use them in

    11 order to cross-examine the witnesses that Mr. Nice

    12 wants to call.

    13 There, Mr. Nice, is the Defence motion.

    14 Perhaps a question before we give the floor to

    15 Mr. Nice: Does your investigator think that he will be

    16 able to have access to those files in a certain amount

    17 of time? How long does he need in order to have access

    18 to them?

    19 MR. GREAVES: The problem is, I'm afraid,

    20 this, and I didn't tell Your Honour the whole story

    21 because you asked me to be brief, but I'll tell you.

    22 He initially thought he was going to be given the

    23 documents, and whilst he was in the process of

    24 obtaining them from one of the judges who has conduct

    25 of the matters at that court, another judge came along

  11. 1 and said, "It's stopped. Don't do that. Check with

    2 the president of the court." The president of the

    3 court, when he was spoken to, said, "You must address

    4 yourselves to the Ministry of Justice."

    5 Having addressed ourselves to the Ministry of

    6 Justice, the Ministry of Justice said, "No, nothing to

    7 do with us. You must go back to the court." So we're

    8 now in a position where we have to go back to the

    9 court. It's possible that a refusal will take place,

    10 and that would force us to come back to Your Honour and

    11 ask Your Honour to issue a request to

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina to yield up the documents.

    13 But I'm looking a little bit further ahead.

    14 Of course, they are in Bosnia, I suspect, and they

    15 would need still to be translated if they are to be of

    16 any use to me. That's another problem that faces us.

    17 But yes, Your Honour has identified the purpose to

    18 which they would be put.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice?

    20 MR. NICE: It would be entirely inappropriate

    21 for an adjournment to be granted, in our respectful

    22 submission. The fruit of inquiries at this particular

    23 Court is probably no different from the fruit of

    24 inquiry at the Brcko court itself. I don't know if my

    25 friends have access to all the Brcko court inquiries,

  12. 1 and it doesn't matter if they do or not, because there

    2 may yet be further applications before that court in

    3 respect of people not yet the subject of application,

    4 in the same way as there may be yet further

    5 applications in respect of other names and at the other

    6 court yet to come. So in principle, the fruit of these

    7 other courts is unlikely to be helpful or critical or

    8 central to any aspect of this case, and it is wholly

    9 uncertain when, in any event, any such material should

    10 be forthcoming.

    11 But that is but a minor point of argument

    12 compared with the substantial reasons why this

    13 application, coming as late as it does, should be

    14 rejected. First, what is the Prosecution's case in

    15 relation to the list? Is it the absolutely central

    16 piece of evidence that the Defence categorise it so to

    17 be? No. The central evidence here is the evidence

    18 from the eyewitnesses, who reveal quite clearly a

    19 campaign of killing, a campaign the nature of which

    20 will be properly decided upon from all the live

    21 evidence before you, both as to its scale, as to its

    22 purpose, as to its targets. And that evidence also, of

    23 course, contains plentiful evidence of the state of

    24 mind of the defendant Jelisic, one of probably the two

    25 important elements upon which this case will focus in

  13. 1 due course. That is the central evidence.

    2 To that evidence, it's true that there is a

    3 list; I'll just tell you a little bit about the list.

    4 The list of some 200-plus bodies, of which 100 or so

    5 were identified, was a list prepared by officials in

    6 the republic in October 1992, and handed over,

    7 eventually, via another source, to investigators of the

    8 Office of the Prosecutor, some years later. The list

    9 purports to be a list of people who died and who were

    10 buried in unmarked graves, starting in May of 1992.

    11 Insofar as there are 100-plus names

    12 identified on that list, some eight of them can, in any

    13 event, be connected directly to the defendant Jelisic,

    14 because he's pleaded guilty in respect of murders of

    15 the named people, or eight of the named people, on that

    16 list. There are several more names to whom he can be

    17 linked by the evidence of witnesses who will say,

    18 "There was a killing, Jelisic did or was complicit in

    19 the killing, and this is the name of the person."

    20 Beyond that, there is evidence of inference in respect

    21 of many more names. The names on the list are names of

    22 people who were killed at this time.

    23 So the list is not a central piece of

    24 evidence; it's a piece of evidence that is

    25 contemporaneous, in that the list itself emerges from

  14. 1 about the time and at the hands of others. It's

    2 evidence, insofar as it confirms particular deaths,

    3 that corroborates what the Chamber will have heard from

    4 elsewhere, and it may be that it will be evidence which

    5 will go to show that the scale of the killings was as

    6 boasted of by Jelisic and as revealed uncontrovertibly,

    7 the Chamber may decide, in the evidence of the mass

    8 graves said in this contemporaneous document to have

    9 been filled in 1992 and capable of being shown by other

    10 evidence to have been constructed and filled, at least

    11 as to one of the graves, in 1992.

    12 That piece of evidence, to remind the

    13 Chamber, comes in the form of a sequence of

    14 photographs, the first sequence being photographs that

    15 the defendant has admitted are of his executing a

    16 victim outside Brcko police station, the same reel of

    17 film ending with a photograph of a mass grave, which

    18 was identified by those exhuming the mass grave as

    19 being clearly the same grave; they can tell it by the

    20 position of the bodies and the bones when exhumed,

    21 comparing it with the photograph of the grave at the

    22 time. So that material goes to show the

    23 contemporaneity with Jelisic's killings of the mass

    24 graves.

    25 This is all material quite independent of the

  15. 1 list. The list confirms some things in parts and may

    2 flesh out the picture. It goes no further than that.

    3 Now, as to the particular concerns of my

    4 learned friend Mr. Greaves, the witnesses, he says, are

    5 to be asked about the names on the list. Indeed, for

    6 today's witness, I have done that in preparation

    7 myself. I've made the list available to him, so that

    8 rather than read 100-plus names in a hurry before you,

    9 he can look at in detail, reflect, and let you know

    10 what, if anything, he knows about the names. And

    11 you'll discover that he knows one or two names.

    12 Indeed, he also knows the one name that is not a

    13 Muslim; there is one Croat who was killed and who he is

    14 able to speak of.

    15 But he is able to speak of a few names. He

    16 is able to say whether any of the people on the list

    17 are, to his knowledge, still alive or not. How much

    18 further would the Defence be able to go if they had

    19 some material going to show that one or other of these

    20 people was alive? Probably no further. And if, in the

    21 event it ever proves to be desirable for a witness who

    22 has been asked about these things to be recalled, they

    23 can be recalled. We will always cooperate, and the

    24 Chamber has the power to seek the recall, has the power

    25 to eliminate from its mind the totality of the

  16. 1 evidence, if it so decided, of a witness who, for some

    2 reason, declined to be recalled, and thus to safeguard

    3 the Defence.

    4 But those problems won't arise, because this

    5 case is in principal to be decided on the evidence of

    6 the witnesses. It may be assisted to a degree by the

    7 list. The list can form part, if it's the subject of

    8 further evidence, can form part of the Defence case,

    9 but it would be wholly wrong for any adjournment to be

    10 allowed at this stage.

    11 Can I respectfully remind you of the unhappy

    12 history of the position of witnesses in this case.

    13 On the earlier hearing, some three of the

    14 eight witnesses who are now here, waiting to give

    15 evidence today, were called to The Hague but not

    16 reached. They are here for a second time already. One

    17 of the witnesses here today, and I'm not going to

    18 identify from which country he has come, but he's

    19 travelled a long way to be here. They have all been or

    20 are in the process of being prepared to give evidence

    21 in a succinct way to this Tribunal. They are therefore

    22 already through or part-way through the process both of

    23 reviving their memories for the purpose of helping this

    24 Tribunal and reliving their experiences, for that is

    25 what is required of them, and it would be quite wrong

  17. 1 for their evidence not to be taken, in our respectful

    2 submission, now.

    3 The Chamber will recall that it was difficult

    4 to find this tour, as we believe it to be three weeks

    5 of sittings starting today, and that we don't know when

    6 any further sittings might be available for the taking

    7 of this case.

    8 I return, therefore, to the way the matter is

    9 put. It's put that matters can't be put to these

    10 witnesses because the Defence enquires aren't

    11 complete. It is unlikely in the extreme that where

    12 these witnesses speak of particular individuals who

    13 they saw killed, it's unlikely in the extreme that

    14 there's going to be a true countercase that the witness

    15 is lying about it.

    16 The Court will remember, I think, the

    17 evidence of the first two witnesses, A and B, and

    18 indeed the very limited cross-examination of them which

    19 didn't go to the substance of the killings, which are

    20 of course admitted by Jelisic, but went to the

    21 accompanying words. It is in reality, I think,

    22 inconceivable that we are going to find a challenge to

    23 the evidence of a direct killing.

    24 If there is evidence from a court elsewhere

    25 that some name on this list, if the list becomes of

  18. 1 value to you, may have died in other circumstances,

    2 then either that name will be of no value or maybe the

    3 list itself will be devalued, but that doesn't attack

    4 the heart of this case at all.

    5 These witnesses who have come here in the

    6 circumstances I've described should now, in our

    7 respectful submission, be heard starting this

    8 afternoon.

    9 I'll just check with Mr. Tochilovsky to see

    10 if there is anything he wishes to add.

    11 Thank you, unless I can help you further.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    13 would you like to respond?

    14 MR. GREAVES: The first point that my learned

    15 friend raised as to the existence of these files at the

    16 Brcko court, I think he must have misunderstood what I

    17 said. We've already looked at the Brcko court. Those

    18 files which have been found at the other court do not

    19 exist at Brcko. So this is the first time we've done

    20 that enquiry. It did not reveal any files in relation

    21 to these people. It was only at the court at Maoca

    22 that revealed the existence of these files.

    23 The second matter is this, is that whilst

    24 seeking to diminish the importance of the list in his

    25 case, my learned friend has, we submit, set out a case

  19. 1 as to why the list is, in fact, important. It

    2 effectively, he says, supports and fills in, as it

    3 were, pieces of the jigsaw, supports the evidence of

    4 other witnesses. So in effect what he's saying is it's

    5 not just the eyewitness, it is supported by the list.

    6 That's why it's important to the Prosecution. They

    7 wouldn't be placing it in front of you unless it had

    8 that importance.

    9 The third matter is this: My learned friend

    10 makes a speech in anticipation of the honesty and

    11 accuracy of his witnesses. That, of course, is

    12 actually a matter for Your Honours. We don't know.

    13 Some witness may come along who has an intention not to

    14 be truthful or accurate, and if one of those files was

    15 to reveal that a witness wasn't being truthful or

    16 accurate, then that would be of extreme importance.

    17 He, of course, is supremely confident, as prosecutors

    18 always are, that their witnesses are honest, truthful,

    19 and accurate, but regrettably he may not be right about

    20 that.

    21 The position is that there may be information

    22 in these files which demonstrates that the witness is

    23 untruthful or perhaps more likely is inaccurate.

    24 Because of the passage of time and events of this kind,

    25 a name may be misunderstood or misheard and information

  20. 1 come out that is inaccurate and which misleads Your

    2 Honour. That would be wrong, if Your Honour were to be

    3 given information which was, in fact, incorrect.

    4 We submit that the possession of these files

    5 may assist the Prosecution, but the Defence say that in

    6 the interests of the truth-finding process, these files

    7 are of supreme importance and it would be very

    8 difficult, we submit, properly and effectively and, we

    9 say, with confidence to cross-examine the witnesses.

    10 I hear what my learned friend says about the

    11 witnesses having been here before. It is partly for

    12 that reason that I say we make this application -- we

    13 do not make this application lightly, and we have

    14 considered that issue before making this motion before

    15 Your Honours. But we do it and we place it before you

    16 and invite Your Honours to accede to it.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Before the

    18 Judges deliberate, let me ask you whether you have

    19 considered, Mr. Greaves, according to Rule 73 ter, that

    20 once all its evidence is completed by the Prosecution

    21 during a Pre-trial Conference, all of the defence will

    22 be reviewed, and perhaps at that point this type of

    23 question could arise, a question which the Judges could

    24 then decide. Have you clearly looked at this text,

    25 this Rule of our proceedings?

  21. 1 Secondly, did you also measure the fact that

    2 today, in the three weeks of trial days after which --

    3 Mr. Fourmy can't be here today, but after that there is

    4 going to be a break in the trial which perhaps you

    5 could use in order to obtain what you need for the

    6 presentation of your Defence evidence.

    7 MR. GREAVES: As to the first matter, Your

    8 Honour, I had not considered Rule 73 ter, I must

    9 confess.

    10 Your Honour, I think the way in which we have

    11 put our case rather suggests that we consider it

    12 important that it should be done during the course of

    13 the Prosecution's evidence. Of course, by the time

    14 Rule 73 ter comes into operation, the Prosecution's

    15 case will have closed and be finished, and I don't see

    16 how we could then rectify that which had taken place.

    17 As far as the second matter that Your Honour

    18 related that dealt with this concern, of course --

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me

    20 interrupt you for a moment, please. Excuse me.

    21 By calling back the witness or witnesses to

    22 whom you would like to ask further questions once you

    23 have the files, that --

    24 MR. GREAVES: [Previous translation

    25 continues] ... that would be part of a re-opened

  22. 1 Prosecution case. We would not want to be responsible

    2 for calling witnesses who are hostile to our case.

    3 That would be very unfair.

    4 The second matter Your Honour raised, the

    5 question of the period after the end of this sitting,

    6 of course we shall be making efforts to get hold of

    7 these files in the meantime, but, as we say, by that

    8 time the witnesses will have come and gone. Some may

    9 be reluctant to return for whatever reason -- who

    10 knows -- if asked to be recalled. It's difficult for

    11 inferences to be drawn, one way or the other, if no

    12 reason is given or someone simply says, "I'm not

    13 prepared to travel yet again." It's very difficult to

    14 go and say that, and the Defence would then be in the

    15 position where we have this information and the witness

    16 has not been able to be asked about it or to deal with

    17 it. That leaves the state of evidence in a very

    18 unsatisfactory state, we would submit, unsatisfactory

    19 because, as it were, all the loose ends have not been

    20 tied up. Your Honours will be left in a situation

    21 where a question mark is raised but is unresolved over

    22 a witness's evidence.

    23 Quite plainly, as far as this witness who is

    24 due to give evidence this afternoon is concerned, he

    25 plainly knows something of some people on the list.

  23. 1 That demonstrates clearly that we're likely to have

    2 more of it. That, we would submit, if any question

    3 mark were to be left, would be most unsatisfactory and

    4 unjust.

    5 Is there anything else upon which I can

    6 assist either Your Honour or Your Honour's colleagues?

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to

    8 my colleagues.

    9 [Trial Chamber confers]

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges are

    11 going to deliberate, and we will resume the hearing at

    12 quarter after 3.00.

    13 --- Recess taken at 2.45 p.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    16 resume the hearing. Please be seated.

    17 Registrar, have the accused brought in,

    18 please.

    19 [The accused entered court]

    20 MR. NICE: Before Your Honour announces the

    21 decision, may I just add something? I explained to

    22 your associate that I needed to add something. One of

    23 the problems of --

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that

    25 the debate is closed now. I don't think there is

  24. 1 anything further to say. Now the Judges are going to

    2 render their decision.

    3 MR. NICE: I understand that, and, of course,

    4 if the decision is there should be no adjournment,

    5 there's no problem. The difficulty was that, with a

    6 motion that comes late on a Friday afternoon,

    7 undetected errors can slip through, and I discovered

    8 something favourable to my position and unfavourable to

    9 the Defence application only after you arose, and from

    10 looking at the list that Mr. Greaves is working on, and

    11 I desire to correct that.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but I

    13 don't want to reopen this discussion, Mr. Nice. That

    14 isn't appropriate, because if we reopen the discussion,

    15 we've got to give the floor back to Mr. Greaves. I

    16 believe the Judges have heard your arguments, and they

    17 will now render their decision. Thank you. Thank you,

    18 Mr. Nice. Thank you for your comprehension.

    19 The Judges, hearing or reviewing the Defence

    20 brief on Goran Jelisic of the 27th of August, this is a

    21 motion which was filed at a rather late date and was

    22 not translated into one of the two languages of the

    23 Tribunal -- this is just as a parenthesis that I've

    24 opened here, but having heard the comments of both

    25 parties and the comments included within the brief and

  25. 1 the responses to the brief, we have decided to reject

    2 the brief, and we order that the trial be continued,

    3 for the three following reasons.

    4 The Judges, first of all, have in their mind

    5 the rights of the accused. The rights of the accused

    6 are not only not compromised by this decision, but to

    7 the contrary, are safeguarded. The Judges first find,

    8 under Rule 73 ter, in the pre-Defence conference, that

    9 the Defence has the opportunity at the proper time, in

    10 light of what will have taken place during the

    11 presentation of evidence by the Prosecution, will have

    12 the opportunity to provide the Judges, in closed

    13 session, with a complete account of anything that may

    14 have happened, anything that may be lacking, lacking

    15 because the witnesses may not have been able to be

    16 cross-examined properly. But at that point, they can

    17 be called back for a hearing with both parties

    18 present.

    19 The Judges would also like to say that the

    20 Defence can call the witnesses back if that should be

    21 necessary, even if this might appear difficult. The

    22 request can be made, and this is a right of the

    23 Defence, that is, to call witnesses and to call them

    24 again under the supervision of the Judges.

    25 Lastly, the Judges point out, keeping mindful

  26. 1 of the rights of the accused, that the Defence can also

    2 bring in any other witness who, depending upon the

    3 events that occurred on that territory in that region,

    4 would allow, after a justification, a supplement to be

    5 made to the Defence list. This is the first part of

    6 our reasoning.

    7 The second group of reasons has to do with

    8 the Judges' role in this Tribunal. The Judges receive,

    9 from the Rules and from the Statute, rights given to

    10 them by the Security Council, and those rights are that

    11 they shall ensure an equitable, fair, expeditious

    12 trial, but a fair one, and this means with both parties

    13 having absolute equal footing.

    14 Under this reasoning, the Judges first of all

    15 go back to Rule 98, which allows the Judges to call in

    16 -- empowers the Chamber to order production of

    17 additional evidence. The Trial Chamber may order

    18 either party to produce additional evidence. It may,

    19 proprio motu, summon witnesses and order their

    20 attendance in light of the debates, and if necessary,

    21 the Judges will use Rule 98.

    22 As guardians of an equitable trial, one finds

    23 this marked in 89(D), which, if necessary, allows the

    24 Judges to exclude any evidence if its probative value

    25 is substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a

  27. 1 fair trial, of which they are the guardians, guardians

    2 of the fair trial. The Judges also go back to

    3 90(D)(i). I could say that "The Trial Chamber shall

    4 exercise control over the mode and order of

    5 interrogating witnesses and presenting evidence so as

    6 to make the interrogation and presentation effective

    7 for the ascertainment of the truth"; as I say, for the

    8 ascertainment of the truth. And I would like to add

    9 that ascertainment of the truth is a notion which

    10 exceeds, of course, both the interests, which are well

    11 understood, of the Prosecution and the accused.

    12 And, lastly, the third group of reasons goes

    13 back to the higher interests of justice, of which the

    14 Judges are also guardians, and it is in that respect

    15 that the Judges must take into account the situation of

    16 the witnesses, who very frequently are victims, and

    17 this means that they must be heard in the order that

    18 was set.

    19 And it's for all of these reasons that the

    20 Defence brief of Defence counsel for Mr. Jelisic has

    21 been rejected, and we order that the trial continue as

    22 had been scheduled.

    23 Mr. Nice, I give you the floor, not in order

    24 to make any comments about a decision which was just

    25 taken, but simply to tell us what the conduct of the

  28. 1 trial will now be. I suppose it has to do with calling

    2 a witness.

    3 MR. NICE: Yes, indeed. There are a couple

    4 of administrative matters that I'd like to deal with

    5 first. Number one, the Court gave leave for the case

    6 officer, Mr. O'Donnell, to be present in court under

    7 90(E). At present, Paul Basham, who sits behind me at

    8 the moment, is the case officer. May I have leave, in

    9 place of Mr. O'Donnell, for Mr. Basham to sit in court

    10 throughout? It's very helpful to me and I think

    11 important that that should happen.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No objection?

    13 MR. GREAVES: No observations to make.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No comments

    15 by -- how do you pronounce his name again?

    16 MR. NICE: Basham, B-A-S-H-A-M.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Basham, who

    18 will now join the Prosecutor's bench, and we wish to

    19 welcome you to your new post.

    20 MR. NICE: The second point.

    21 We, on the Prosecution side, have been aware

    22 for some weeks that there are three weeks of trial

    23 sittings planned for this case, starting today. I

    24 understand that the Defence may be in a different

    25 position, not being aware of the third week. One of us

  29. 1 must be wrong. We understand it to be three weeks.

    2 MR. GREAVES: As late as Wednesday of last

    3 week, I spoke to the Defence Counsel Liaison Unit, and

    4 they told me that there was no sitting set for the

    5 third week, and we've had no notification of any kind

    6 that there is due to be a third week. If there is such

    7 a third week, it may cause a number of difficulties

    8 certainly to me. We've been operating on the basis

    9 that there would just be two weeks.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar,

    11 could you give some clarification? I thought we were

    12 supposed to work until the 20th or the 15th or 16th of

    13 September. 18th of September, that's what my colleague

    14 Judge Riad has just reminded me of.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, until the 17th, that was

    16 the 17th, which is a Friday in the morning.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And was this

    18 information given in proper time to the Defence?

    19 THE REGISTRAR: Ordinarily, I know that those

    20 three weeks had been set around the middle or the end

    21 of July, unless I made a mistake, as regards the three

    22 weeks of trial.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Londrovic,

    24 were you informed?

    25 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

  30. 1 Honours.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] It seems to me

    3 that that microphone --

    4 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your

    5 Honours. I talked today with Mr. Rohde at quarter to

    6 2.00, that is, about 15 minutes before the trial, and

    7 he told me that he knew that this stage of the trial

    8 would last two weeks. And Mrs. Monika as well referred

    9 to two weeks. We have received no notification in

    10 writing.

    11 We also do not know if additional witnesses,

    12 which we see on the Prosecutor's list, have been

    13 approved. I do not know which witnesses are protected,

    14 whether protection was sought for some of the

    15 witnesses. I do not know if I'm allowed to pronounce

    16 their names in public, but some witnesses were not on

    17 their previous list and now I see them on this list,

    18 and I do not know whether the Chamber has approved the

    19 new witness list.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges ask

    21 questions in this court, Mr. Londrovic, ordinarily.

    22 The Judges are here for three weeks for the Jelisic

    23 case. Can you now make preparations for the third

    24 week, Mr. Londrovic, Mr. Greaves, assuming there was a

    25 mistake on the Registrar's part? I don't really know.

  31. 1 Mr. Fourmy is not here today, but it seems to me that

    2 we had spoken about those three weeks quite a long time

    3 ago.

    4 In theory, we will do three weeks of trial

    5 now. I can tell you that now.

    6 MR. GREAVES: With respect, Your Honour, we

    7 can only deal with --

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    9 MR. GREAVES: [Inaudible] official

    10 information is forthcoming, and we haven't had any

    11 official information that there is to be a third week.

    12 One may talk of something as a possibility, but that

    13 possibility does not become a certainty until it is

    14 issued as a formal document saying, "This is the

    15 schedule. This is the order that we give as to the

    16 schedule." Counsel can only operate on the basis of

    17 official information, and none of that has been

    18 communicated to us.

    19 Plainly, the Defence Counsel Liaison Unit is

    20 in ignorance of the existence of this third week,

    21 because I checked last week, my learned friend

    22 Mr. Londrovic checked today. They don't know about it

    23 and so we don't know about it. We can only operate on

    24 that basis.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

  32. 1 Mr. Greaves.

    2 [Trial Chamber confers]

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, how

    4 many witnesses do you plan to call during those three

    5 weeks?

    6 MR. NICE: We have, I think, available over

    7 20 witnesses. We are calling them in batches, and we

    8 are expecting to be able to move witnesses forward at

    9 quite a rate by a technique that I hope to reveal to

    10 you in a minute and also by focusing on the central

    11 evidence of each witness and only on the central

    12 evidence.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. So

    14 you are confirming that the Defence was aware of a

    15 decision which I rendered on the 27th of April, 1999,

    16 when you only added three witnesses?

    17 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry. I misunderstood

    18 your first question. No, as to the additional

    19 witnesses. Mr. Londrovic's observations in relation to

    20 the weeks of trial included the separate issue of

    21 witnesses not on the original list.

    22 There are names not on the original list. I

    23 was hoping to be able to deal with those in an

    24 application tomorrow.

    25 In summary, the grounds of the application

  33. 1 would be that there being witnesses who have refused,

    2 there being the real prospects of getting to the heart

    3 of the evidence in the case of all these witnesses more

    4 swiftly, and fundamentally that these other witnesses

    5 can give short but extremely valuable evidence to the

    6 Tribunal, I would be asking, and I think tomorrow, that

    7 their names may be added. But I would prefer to deal

    8 with the matter tomorrow not least because I hope to

    9 discuss the matter more fully with my learned friends,

    10 both in relation to witnesses who aren't here and in

    11 relation to the parts of the evidence of the proposed

    12 additional witnesses that might either be the subject

    13 of agreement or, in any event, that might be the

    14 subject of agreements to their being called.

    15 So that I have available, subject to the

    16 addition of those names, over 20 witnesses. I am

    17 reasonably confident that we will be moving at a far

    18 faster speed in this case than perhaps in any or most

    19 other cases and that we will get to the heart of the

    20 evidence, and therefore there are available over 20

    21 witnesses, including the odd expert witness, to fill

    22 this three-week period.

    23 I have a particular observation to make about

    24 the expert witness. I might as well deal with it now.

    25 I have been concerned that the subject of

  34. 1 exhumation, which is subject of expert evidence, would

    2 appear not to be the subject of any direct

    3 contradiction. I've discussed the matter with

    4 Mr. Greaves, and we are always able to discuss matters

    5 frankly, but it would appear, and I can't be sure about

    6 this, it would appear that on the expert evidence of

    7 exhumation, I am, in the terminology of the common-law

    8 system, for what that's worth, I am being put to

    9 proof. That is to say, I've simply got to put the

    10 evidence before you, even though it may not be

    11 challenged. I am concerned about that, because the

    12 evidence will have to be called from Australia. The

    13 witness concerned will have to come all the way around

    14 the world, and it seems to me undesirable, in the

    15 setting of this type of tribunal, that matters that may

    16 not truly be in dispute should only be available at

    17 such expense and, indeed, extravagance, so I was going

    18 to invite this Tribunal, at some stage this week when

    19 the evidence had started to unfold, to consider whether

    20 it should enquire of the Defence whether they really

    21 had a case to put in relation to the scientist or

    22 whether the Prosecution was simply being put to proof,

    23 because of course it's always open to the Tribunal to

    24 admit evidence in hearsay form. I mention that because

    25 I had this in mind for the timetable, and I haven't

  35. 1 yet, as it were, summoned the witness from Australia

    2 and I've got him on hold until next week when I must

    3 tell him whether to come or not.

    4 Subject to that problem, which I would rather

    5 again put off until a little later this week, I've got

    6 witnesses to fill the three-week period with evidence

    7 for Your Honours.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you for

    9 that clarification.

    10 The schedule had been set. I don't know if

    11 there was a mistake in its remission, but you must

    12 understand, Mr. Greaves, that this is now the 30th of

    13 August and we're talking about the third week of

    14 September, which would be from the 13th to the 18th. I

    15 believe those are the dates, 13th of September until

    16 the 17th of September. So, in principle, you have time

    17 to make your preparations, assuming that there was a

    18 mistake in the information being transmitted.

    19 I see the possibility of saying to you that

    20 we decided on the 27th of April that we would add three

    21 witnesses. I had rendered a decision with my

    22 colleagues to add three witnesses to the Prosecution

    23 list, whose names you were given. Therefore, you

    24 should, in theory, be prepared for these three weeks.

    25 That's all the more important, because these three

  36. 1 weeks should close the cycle for the Prosecutor's

    2 presentation of his evidence, and that would therefore

    3 allow you calmly, because we did not prepare for any

    4 hearings after that, to organise. We will have a

    5 Status Conference where you can raise any problems you

    6 had during this first phase of the trial.

    7 So therefore, in theory, we're going to work

    8 for three weeks until the 17th of September.

    9 As regards the other questions raised by

    10 Mr. Nice, we can go back to them tomorrow, but for

    11 right now I can say that we will sit for three weeks,

    12 that is, until the 17th of September, a Friday. I ask

    13 that you prepare for that schedule.

    14 You have heard there is witness statements.

    15 You'll know what they are going to say. You'll be in a

    16 position to cross-examine them, and I suppose that you

    17 will be able to figure out a way to use the third

    18 week. Otherwise, the trial would be delayed. Once

    19 again, I feel that that is inappropriate in respect of

    20 the text that I've just recalled in the previous

    21 decision.

    22 If there are no further comments, perhaps

    23 we're going to suspend for a few moments in order to --

    24 we have to think about the interpreters. We would be

    25 ready to hear the first witness.

  37. 1 Is that going to be a private session or a

    2 public session?

    3 Let me say this for the public gallery, that

    4 we want the public to know what is going on with our

    5 work. I think this is going to be testimony given in

    6 private session. That means that there will simply be

    7 voice distortion. Is that correct, Mr. Nice?

    8 MR. NICE: If the Court pleases, this witness

    9 would like face distortion and a pseudonym. Pseudonyms

    10 A to B have been used but C to E were allocated on the

    11 last occasion, and if it's not inconvenient, may this

    12 witness become Witness F? If you would prefer him to

    13 be Witness C in order to remind yourselves of the order

    14 of witnesses, I'm sure we can reallocate them, but by

    15 an earlier order, other witnesses were given the

    16 initials C, D, and E.

    17 Can I just explain very briefly, before the

    18 Court rises, what tool I am in a position to provide, I

    19 hope, to help with this and with other witnesses, if

    20 the tool is of use to this Chamber. It has been tried

    21 elsewhere with some success. A minute of explanation

    22 will help.

    23 Witnesses typically make two, sometimes only

    24 one, sometimes more statements. It's necessary to

    25 summarise, from all those different sources, what the

  38. 1 witness will say. The practice within my team here is

    2 that that preparation is done in advance of the witness

    3 coming, and so a summary of what it is expected that's

    4 material to the case that the witness will say can be

    5 prepared before his or her arrival. But of course the

    6 witness then needs to check that that summary is

    7 correct, may add to it, may correct it, may detract

    8 from it, and so the final summary of a witness's

    9 evidence can only be prepared when the witness is

    10 here.

    11 Nevertheless, it is possible for typed

    12 summaries of what a witness is expected to say to be

    13 available both to the Defence and to the Chamber.

    14 Indeed, it should have been possible for those

    15 summaries to be available today in B/C/S, French, as

    16 well as in English, for I had the first drafts

    17 translated into those languages in advance and the

    18 translation department was hopeful it would be able to

    19 meet my requests to bring the final versions before the

    20 Chamber today. In the event, the final versions won't

    21 be available until tomorrow morning.

    22 May I nevertheless hand in three English and

    23 one French version marked "First Draft" in green and

    24 explain how, if you find these helpful documents, they

    25 may assist us.

  39. 1 Judge Jorda --

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, yes,

    3 that's the way to work, and I would have encouraged you

    4 to do that. This is what this Trial Chamber wants and

    5 to go right to the very heart of the statements and the

    6 testimony of the witnesses and to say what he has to

    7 say and not to tell us his whole life, because it's a

    8 very complex issue, it's very sensitive issues, and

    9 it's very difficult for the Judges to interrupt a

    10 witness who was an unfortunate victim of these events.

    11 I always ask, before the witness comes, that

    12 I be given a written summary, and I want that the

    13 examination go to the very heart of the evidence that

    14 you're trying to show.

    15 Ordinarily, our text tells that the

    16 cross-examination must come only after the examination

    17 in chief. I think this is a subtle rule and we don't

    18 always use it, but we will try to apply this as

    19 properly as possible, always keeping in mind the rights

    20 of the accused. However, ordinarily, with the summary

    21 and properly-targeted questions targeting the essential

    22 questions for which the witness came to The Hague to

    23 testify about, and with the cross-examination and the

    24 examination in chief, we should be able to go quickly

    25 and equitably, which would allow the Prosecution and

  40. 1 the Defence to present their points of view.

    2 Do you have any other clarifications you

    3 would like to provide, Mr. Nice?

    4 MR. NICE: Only this, that if you take the

    5 version not presently before you for Witness F, the

    6 name should be struck through. If you take that

    7 version before you, bearing in mind that the French may

    8 be marginally different because it's the first draft

    9 from the English, the final version of the French and

    10 B/C/S available tomorrow, what it will be possible for

    11 us to achieve, I think, with the cooperation of

    12 Mr. Greaves and Mr. Londrovic, which I know will be

    13 forthcoming, is to say, for example, "Well, paragraphs

    14 1 to 5 are non-contentious," if that be the case, and

    15 then I can simply summarise those to the witness, the

    16 witness says, "Yes, that's true," and we go to page 2.

    17 That's what I intend to do, if that's acceptable to the

    18 Court.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. My

    20 colleagues agree with me.

    21 Any comments or objections, Mr. Greaves?

    22 MR. GREAVES: None as to that procedure, but

    23 there are two matters that I wanted to raise of an

    24 administrative nature before Your Honours rise,

    25 please.

  41. 1 The first is this, that my learned friend

    2 Mr. Londrovic and I don't have a common language. We

    3 do have an interpreter. I've asked my learned friend

    4 for the Prosecution if he has any objection and he has

    5 not, but would Your Honours permit my interpreter to

    6 sit with us at counsels' bench? Would you think that

    7 was a proper thing to do, please?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, there's no

    9 problem with that.

    10 MR. GREAVES: But I just, and I don't want to

    11 harp on it at any length, deal with the question of

    12 schedules.

    13 Your Honour, it's not so much a matter of

    14 preparing for witnesses. If counsel aren't informed

    15 what the schedule is, we tend to make other

    16 arrangements with our life, both professionally and

    17 privately, that now have to be unpicked if that

    18 information is not forthcoming.

    19 It is, as I said much earlier this year, very

    20 important that good advance notice be given to

    21 counsel. This is not a court where we arrive or

    22 practice in the same town and can simply arrive at the

    23 drop of a hat. Some of us live elsewhere in the world,

    24 and it causes considerable inconvenience if we have to,

    25 at very short notice, rearrange other matters. Can I

  42. 1 make that clear and ask that if there are to be further

    2 schedulings, they be given in good time.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] For the future,

    4 of course, assuming that there was an error. I want to

    5 wait for Mr. Fourmy in order to be sure whether or not

    6 there was an error on the part of the Tribunal's

    7 administration. I would be very sorry if there were,

    8 but that doesn't change the Judges' resolve to have the

    9 three weeks of trial, unless something unexpected

    10 happens that we cannot control.

    11 If there are no further comments, I believe

    12 we can now adjourn for 15 minutes. Yes, 15 minutes.

    13 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

    14 I do apologise, but you said a while ago that you had

    15 allowed the Prosecutor to add three witnesses to the

    16 list, and this is not in dispute. However, I see some

    17 other names on their list, and I do not know that the

    18 Chamber has decided anything on them. I repeat, I do

    19 not want to read out these names because I do not know

    20 if they are protected, but there is 16, 17, 18, 19, and

    21 20. It is five new witnesses, and this is the first

    22 time we've absolutely heard about them or seen their

    23 names. We do not know when they were added to the

    24 list, and we do not know yet if you will approve it.

    25 We do not know if, under Rule 73, the

  43. 1 Prosecution was allowed to do it, but I do not really

    2 know those new witnesses that Mr. Nice refers to. When

    3 I count them, I see 12 or 13 witnesses, without the

    4 five expert witnesses, that is, and yet my learned

    5 friend is referring to about 20 witnesses.

    6 Now, if some new witnesses are going to be

    7 added, of course it is up to the Chamber to do so, but

    8 I'm afraid the Defence is really placed in an

    9 inequitable position in this matter.

    10 I did not know about the three weeks of

    11 hearing or else I wouldn't have bought a return ticket

    12 to return to Herzegovina on September 13th, and I do

    13 have this ticket. So it is quite evident I knew

    14 nothing about those three weeks.

    15 As for the statements which are not in

    16 dispute, I'm afraid this might arise as a problem,

    17 because we do not know what our learned friends have

    18 prepared as indisputable, but we should indeed like to

    19 receive those lists both in English and in our language

    20 and then discuss it with them to see whether these

    21 statements are in dispute or not in dispute. We shall

    22 be seeing them only tomorrow, but we shall need, I

    23 think, a meeting to discuss them and see whether they

    24 are disputable or not, and I'm not sure whether we can

    25 agree with this manner of work. I'm not sure we can do

  44. 1 that.

    2 If my learned friend from the Prosecution

    3 believes that he will now introduce here the practice

    4 used in Mr. Kordic's case, if that is the system of

    5 work that is proposed by the Prosecution, then I

    6 believe this was rejected by the Chamber, if I am

    7 correct, that is, if that is the method you are

    8 proposing. Now we really do not know which sequence

    9 will be followed, which witnesses are relevant, which

    10 are not, which were approved by the Chamber, which were

    11 not. We simply do not know that.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, would

    13 you like to make any further comments?

    14 MR. NICE: There are two issues again.

    15 Certainly so far as the summaries are

    16 concerned, I can make available, I think, to

    17 Mr. Londrovic a first draft of the summary in the same

    18 way as I made a French version available to the Court,

    19 and I hope that will help him for this afternoon.

    20 As I've already indicated as to additional

    21 witnesses, I would prefer to deal with that matter

    22 tomorrow, having discussed the matter with my friends,

    23 but I recall having a fairly extensive discussion with

    24 Mr. Greaves towards the end of the last term, as it

    25 were, and ended up by my sending him a letter. Neither

  45. 1 of us has the letter, I think, in court today. I

    2 certainly raised with him then that there would be an

    3 application to deal with additional witnesses at the

    4 beginning of the trial.

    5 So I would hope that we can satisfy

    6 Mr. Londrovic's concern about a summary by providing

    7 him with a first draft of the B/C/S when the Court

    8 adjourns and deal with additional witnesses tomorrow.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] As much as

    10 possible, I would like for you to come to an

    11 agreement. Let me remind you that the witness list was

    12 set up during the Pre-trial Conference pursuant to

    13 Rule 73 bis. It's always difficult to add witnesses.

    14 We did that on the 27th of April, Mr. Nice, at your

    15 request, through a decision that the Judges rendered,

    16 but of which the Defence could have been informed well

    17 in advance. Each time a witness is called in, then the

    18 order of the scheduling is disrupted, and you know that

    19 the Judges in this Trial Chamber want the trials to

    20 come to a proper end.

    21 If, once the trial begins, new things are

    22 added, new witnesses, new evidence, or even

    23 investigations are continued, I cannot see how one can

    24 ensure that the trial is conducted properly, and I

    25 think, Mr. Nice, you have to try to counterbalance

  46. 1 things here in order to make things easier. Perhaps

    2 the problem of additional witnesses will be taken up

    3 tomorrow, but for the time being, what I would wish is

    4 for this trial to begin, and I would like the

    5 interpreters to be able to take a break. We'll take a

    6 15-minute pause, and we'll start at 20 after 4.

    7 Nothing prevents either of you coming to an

    8 agreement on the additional witnesses. I'm speaking of

    9 Mr. Nice and Mr. Greaves.

    10 --- Recess taken at 4.05 p.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.

    12 [Open session]

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can resume

    14 the hearing now. Please have the accused brought in.

    15 We will now have the accused brought in. Let me say

    16 this for the gallery. We will raise the curtains.

    17 They were simply lowered so that when the witness comes

    18 in he not be identified, that is, that nobody in the

    19 gallery be able to see who it is.

    20 All right, Mr. Prosecutor, we're not going to

    21 go back to the summary, as I did in other trials,

    22 because you have given us in French, for which I'm very

    23 appreciative, and this will allow us to speed up the

    24 witness testimony. This is Witness F; is that

    25 correct?

  47. 1 MR. NICE: Correct.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher,

    3 Mr. Registrar, would you have the witness brought in to

    4 the courtroom, please. That is, Witness F.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Let me mention that we can

    6 number the summaries that were given to you. There

    7 would be Exhibit 8, Prosecution Exhibit 8. Exhibit 7

    8 was identification of the witness's name.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you putting

    10 a reference number both on the English and French

    11 versions?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. I thought that there

    13 was a French and English version but also one in B/C/S,

    14 in which case the -- well, everything will depend on

    15 the original. I think that the B/C/S would be --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. You

    17 don't have to explain what you're going to do; just be

    18 sure that it's done. All right. This is Exhibit 8,

    19 the summary. The witness is going to come into the

    20 courtroom now. Can he be brought in?

    21 [The witness entered court]

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, please do

    23 not sit down.

    24 Mr. Usher, he should not -- would you prefer

    25 that he sit down? He's going to take an oath seated,

  48. 1 then?

    2 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, because there are some

    3 technical limitations.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    5 Do you hear me, Witness F? Do you hear me?

    6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You have come

    8 to The Hague; perhaps this is the first time. We thank

    9 you for it. You're going to take an oath first, and

    10 then you're going to identify your name on a piece of

    11 paper which is being given to you by the usher, but

    12 first I'm going to ask you to take an oath, and under

    13 exceptional circumstances, we're going to allow you to

    14 remain seated so that your face not be seen.

    15 Give the witness the formula. Witness F, you

    16 can read it.

    17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    19 truth.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    21 are now going to identify your name but not say it.

    22 Simply check to see that that is, in fact, who you

    23 are.

    24 Please show him the document.

    25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

  49. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    2 Thank you. You are being covered by protective

    3 measures that you asked for and the Prosecutor asked

    4 for on your behalf. You are perfectly protected, at

    5 least within the Tribunal, and you can speak now,

    6 answering the questions that the Prosecutor is going to

    7 ask you, and then you're going to answer the Defence's

    8 questions, and lastly you will answer the Judges'

    9 questions, if the Judges need to ask you any.

    10 Speak without hatred, without fear. Try to

    11 relax. You are before a tribunal, before judges. Try

    12 to relax and feel comfortable and have no fear. This

    13 is all that I can tell you now. If you have any

    14 problems, any physical, emotional, or any other type of

    15 problems, do not hesitate to say that. If you need to

    16 drink something, if you need to take a break, let us

    17 know. In any case, try to remain relaxed.

    18 And now I believe we can begin,

    19 Mr. Registrar; is that correct?

    20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right,

    22 Mr. Prosecutor, the floor is yours.

    23 WITNESS: F

    24 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    25 [Witness answers through interpreter]

  50. 1 Q. Witness F, in April 1992, did you live in

    2 Brcko?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. The bridges were blown up on the 30th of

    5 April?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Having been advised to leave town, did you

    8 move to a friend's apartment?

    9 A. Yes, but this took place later.

    10 Q. What day --

    11 A. After the conflict broke out.

    12 Q. What day did you move to the friend's

    13 apartment?

    14 A. The accurate answer is that the war started

    15 on the 1st of May. That night I spent in my private

    16 home, but there was no protection from the shelling

    17 there, so on the next morning, the 2nd of May, we took

    18 an opportunity to move over to the apartment of my

    19 friend and neighbour who had --

    20 Q. I'll stop you there --

    21 A. -- who was in the basement of the building.

    22 So it was safer there.

    23 Q. I'm going to stop you there and move on so

    24 that we can focus your evidence. Were you and many

    25 other people evacuated by Serb military personnel some

  51. 1 days later? Just "Yes" or "No."

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Can you give the date for that evacuation?

    4 A. 7 May, 1992.

    5 Q. Was the evacuation peaceful or by force?

    6 A. By force.

    7 Q. Were you separated into Serbs and non-Serbs?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Were the non-Serbs taken to Brcko barracks,

    10 where the males over 18 and under 60 were separated

    11 from the other males?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The following morning you were going to one

    14 location. Were you in fact put on buses and taken to

    15 the Luka warehouse on the river?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What number of people, very approximately,

    18 were evacuated?

    19 A. Between one and two thousand. It is hard for

    20 me to tell exactly.

    21 Q. At --

    22 A. Just a moment. Do you mean to Luka, or to

    23 the Brcko barracks?

    24 Q. To the Brcko barracks.

    25 A. Between one and two thousand, yes.

  52. 1 Q. And to Luka itself?

    2 A. In my estimate, between six and seven hundred

    3 men.

    4 Q. In the barracks, did you learn of or did you

    5 see something of a man from the village of Janja?

    6 A. Not in the barracks, but at Luka, because

    7 that's where they were calling out the names.

    8 Q. What happened to that man?

    9 A. When we entered Luka, we had to turn in our

    10 personal documents, and then the Serbian soldiers

    11 checked the documents. When they saw that this

    12 gentleman was from Janja, they called him out and they

    130 started beating him. This started in the hangar in

    14 Luka first, and then they took him out from the hangar

    15 where the rest of us were all put.

    16 Q. Did you see that man again?

    17 A. After he was taken out, we couldn't see, but

    18 we heard terrible screams, and this man never came back

    19 to this room where we were.

    20 Q. Shortly after, did two men enter the hangar?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Wearing what?

    23 A. One of them was wearing a uniform of the

    24 former police force, that was the Ministry of Internal

    25 Affairs, and he had a light blue shirt and darker blue

  53. 1 pants. He had an automatic pistol with a silencer in

    2 his hand, and at his belt he also had a police baton.

    3 It was a very large one; I had not seen that length of

    4 baton before.

    5 Q. Did a man say anything? If so, what?

    6 A. Yes, this man asked us, "Do you know me?" We

    7 responded more or less in unison that we did not,

    8 because we didn't; he was not from Brcko. And then he

    9 said, "If you don't know me, you will get to know me

    10 very well. I am the Serbian Adolf."

    11 Q. Did he say anything else at that stage about

    12 who he was, what he was doing, his position?

    13 A. Yes, he said, "Only about five to ten of all

    14 of you who are here will be lucky enough to leave here

    15 alive."

    16 Q. Did he say anything about who was controlling

    17 your futures?

    18 A. Yes, he said something to the effect that our

    19 destiny, our fate, was in his hands, and it was going

    20 to be in his hands.

    21 Q. Did he say anything to his companion?

    22 A. Yes, he then said to his companion, "We could

    23 start with our work," and then he sent him to bring in

    24 a box, an empty box. When this companion came back

    25 with the box, he told us, "Anything valuable that you

  54. 1 have, gold, money, and such, put in this box, and if

    2 anything should be found on any one of you after this,

    3 he will be dealt with in short order." And by that he

    4 meant he would be killed.

    5 Q. Did another uniformed person enter the

    6 hangar?

    7 A. Yes, right around that time, when they

    8 started taking off their valuables and pulling out the

    9 money, a uniformed soldier came into this room. We

    10 recognised the insignia. He was a member of the

    11 so-called military police of the JNA. They had white

    12 belts around their waist and across their chest.

    13 Shall I go on?

    14 Q. Yes. What did he say?

    15 A. Yes. When he walked in, as I said, nobody

    16 knew this man who introduced himself as Adolf the

    17 Serbian, and then he said, "What are you doing here?"

    18 They were starting to loot. He said, "We came from

    19 Bijeljina, and while we're here, nobody is to touch

    20 them." Then they had a conflict. The man who

    21 introduced himself as a Serbian Adolf said, "You don't

    22 know me. I only need to make a phone call and then you

    23 will learn who I am, and you will see what will

    24 happen." After that, the Serbian Adolf left the hangar

    25 where we were all staying, and he was very angry.

  55. 1 Q. In his absence, how were you treated?

    2 A. Throughout this time, as people were coming

    3 in, everybody was trying -- in fact, I was among the

    4 first who came, I was on the first bus. Everybody was

    5 trying to go to the back of the hangar because they

    6 felt safer there, but everybody who came in had to

    7 leave everything of their personal effects, such as

    8 documents and if they had any bags, they had to leave

    9 them at the door.

    10 All this time, the soldiers were perusing

    11 these documents, and so they found a personal identity

    12 card of this man who they saw was from Janja, and this

    13 is why they called him out. I think that the reason

    14 for it, as we learned later, was that Janja was a

    15 Muslim village near Bijeljina which was the only

    16 village which had some weapons and refused to turn it

    17 in, and these Serbs, Serbo Chetniks, these paramilitary

    18 troops, were very angry at people from this area, and

    19 so this is why this young man was called out and taken

    20 out, and then he never came back.

    21 Q. Was it possible for some of you to be

    22 released?

    23 A. In order to clarify things, I would like to

    24 point out one thing which I think is very important.

    25 The members of the so-called military police

  56. 1 of the former JNA were somehow giving us more sense of

    2 security. We knew these guys. They were our

    3 neighbours from the area where I live, from my

    4 neighbourhood, and they treated us correctly.

    5 Q. Those of you known to Serbs, were you able or

    6 were you at least in a position to have a chance of

    7 being released?

    8 A. Yes. After a while, they came by themselves

    9 and they told us. I personally have the impression

    10 that they were looking for a way to help us out in this

    11 situation because we knew each other so well, we had

    12 grown up together, we were friends, and it is possible

    13 that this was a reason why they later came back, and

    14 they told us that some will be released and that a Serb

    15 will guarantee with his life, but if later it turned

    16 out that some of them were members of the SDA or had

    17 anything to do with that party, that this Serb was the

    18 first who will pay the price by losing his life, and

    19 then this person himself would do so.

    20 In the meantime, all the documents -- that

    21 is, outside we could hear some motor vehicles arriving

    22 outside, and at one point the soldiers came in and took

    23 all the documents which had been gathered inside. And

    24 then in order for us to be released, this man would

    25 come in, and they would check and see who they could

  57. 1 guarantee for. Then they would leave and then come

    2 back with, I don't know, five to ten documents, and

    3 these documents were personal identity cards, student

    4 cards or passports, and bring them. These documents

    5 meant that a person could walk out with it to a table

    6 in front of the hangar and get a release document, and

    7 with this document they could leave Luka once the

    8 transportation was secured.

    9 Q. Were you fortunate enough to be called out

    10 and to be given a pass?

    11 A. Yes, I was lucky enough.

    12 Q. By whom was the pass signed?

    13 A. I would like to point out that moment. I

    14 think it's very important. I would like to clarify

    15 it.

    16 When we gave those passes, these release

    17 documents, it was a piece of paper 10 by 20 centimetres

    18 and it bore a stamp which was unknown to me until

    19 then. It said "Serbian Autonomous Region of Semberija

    20 and Majevica." That was in the upper corner, and then

    21 it would state that such and such person was being

    22 released, and then it would state their date of birth

    23 and the registration number of his identity card, and

    24 then it was signed by Djorde Ristanic, the

    25 self-appointed president of the Brcko municipality

  58. 1 assembly.

    2 I think that this document is very telling in

    3 many ways. First of all, the very stamp which did not

    4 exist before, and then it was the highest organ of the

    5 civilian authority which was on the signature. All

    6 this means that there had been preparations, that all

    7 this was not haphazard, that there was coordination

    8 between the military authorities and paramilitary

    9 authorities and civilian authorities.

    10 Q. By whom --

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    12 MR. NICE: Sorry.

    13 Q. By whom was your pass signed?

    14 A. The pass was signed by Djorde Ristanic.

    15 After the Serbs took over control of most of

    16 the city after the war broke out, he became the

    17 self-appointed head of the Brcko municipality, which

    18 was the highest local civilian authority.

    19 Q. Look, please, at an aerial photograph which

    20 will be placed on the ELMO, although the usher will

    21 show you that you must sit in your seat and point to

    22 things with a pointer to help us, and this will become

    23 Exhibit number, I think, 7 or 8.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: This is 9.

    25 MR. NICE: Yes, I forgot the other two.

  59. 1 Thank you so much.

    2 If he could have the pointer, please, so he

    3 could stay in his seat. Don't move. Otherwise, your

    4 face may be seen.

    5 Q. But if you stay in your seat, can you point

    6 out, please, the hangar to which you were first taken?

    7 A. Yes. This is the first one here

    8 [indicating].

    9 Q. Where were you made to stand when you got

    10 your pass and were standing outside the hangar?

    11 A. It was -- there is an overhang here

    12 [indicating] and so this is where a table was put, and

    13 a soldier was filling out the passes.

    14 Q. Can you look at this photograph, please,

    15 which will become Exhibit 10? Thank you.

    16 Does that show the same area, but now at

    17 ground level, with the hangars on the left?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You were standing under the overhang or you

    20 made reference to the overhang. Can you point to that?

    21 A. Yes. This was the door here [indicating].

    22 There are sliding doors. They were open, and we were

    23 here [indicating] in this front part of the hangar, the

    24 first third of it, so we could see very little outside,

    25 as we were inside. They were filling out these passes,

  60. 1 and the table had been set right here by the door

    2 [indicating], and so people --

    3 Q. Yes. I'm going to interrupt you. When you

    4 got your pass, did you wait outside the hangar?

    5 A. Yes, around here, right close to the door.

    6 Q. Thank you.

    7 A. In front of me was the table, and behind it

    8 was this man who was --

    9 Q. What was happening in the building or office

    10 opposite to you?

    11 A. As we were here [indicating], from here we

    12 could hear and see even -- we could hear a lot of

    13 noises. It was as if some furniture was being slammed

    14 down, and some kind of loud screams, human screams.

    15 Q. Coming from where?

    16 A. Across the entrance to the hangar

    17 [indicating], this was the administration building and

    18 the cashier of the Luka company, and this is where

    19 these screams were coming from.

    20 Q. Did you, in --

    21 A. Around here [indicating].

    22 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] -- see

    23 several men leave the office opposite at intervals of

    24 time?

    25 A. Yes. When I was in this place, I was

  61. 1 practically outside, I could see what was going on

    2 outside. There was a door there [indicating], and

    3 first a man was brought out, escorted by this man who

    4 introduced himself as the Serbian Adolf. I did not

    5 know his name at that time because he never told us the

    6 real name. He only introduced himself as the Serbian

    7 Adolf.

    8 Again I would like to point out it is clear

    9 that we were all very scared because we were facing

    10 death and everything was pointing to that, and I would

    11 also like to point out that this place, in World War

    12 II, this is a location where civilians were murdered

    13 during World War II, so it was something that spooked

    14 us almost, because of those memories.

    15 Q. What did the man called Adolf do to that

    16 first man you saw coming out of the office?

    17 A. They came out here [indicating]. It was

    18 almost directly across from the hangar door. First

    19 this man came out. In fact, Adolf was pushing him, was

    20 actually nudging him with the automatic pistol, and so

    21 he was sort of directing him in which direction he was

    22 going to go and they were going down there

    23 [indicating], and he was taking him and pointing where

    24 he was going to go. Then they turned the corner of the

    25 building. You can't see it very well. We couldn't see

  62. 1 what was going on behind there, but a couple of seconds

    2 later we heard two muffled shots, and then Goran

    3 returned.

    4 Q. The man who was being pushed and who didn't

    5 return, did he say anything?

    6 A. I'd say first that he looked awful. He was

    7 in such a bad condition that he was barely

    8 recognisable. He was covered in blood, dirty, had very

    9 many scars on his face, or rather there was blood on

    10 his hair, his hands, there were lacerations on his

    11 arms, and he was moving in a very unnatural manner, so

    12 he must have been very badly injured or something must

    13 have been done to him.

    14 Goran was pushing him with the pistol and

    15 indicating the direction in which he should move, and

    16 the man was swearing on the life of his children that

    17 he was not a member of the green beret and was

    18 imploring Goran, that is, the Serb Adolf, not to kill

    19 him.

    20 Q. Where did the Serb Adolf go when he returned

    21 from behind that building?

    22 A. When he returned from behind that building,

    23 he went to this man where they were writing, to this

    24 table, where they were writing at this table, so that

    25 is rather inside Luka, inside. He was about five or

  63. 1 six metres from the table where there was a group of

    2 Serb soldiers. They were talking. I don't know what

    3 about.

    4 But Goran, after he had done that, he

    5 approached that group and commented something, and they

    6 laughed. I don't know what they were talking about,

    7 but I know they were really laughing heartily. It

    8 looked like a party. They seemed very amused. I can't

    9 explain that, but that's how it was.

    10 Q. Tell us about the second man that you saw to

    11 leave the office. First, how long after the first man

    12 did the second man leave?

    13 A. After the first man left, one heard the same

    14 thing all over again, that is, something hitting

    15 against pieces of furniture or something and screams.

    16 Then, if one can judge it, it must have been some 10 or

    17 15 minutes later when the second man was taken out.

    18 They simply pushed him through the door and then Goran

    19 approached, and once again the same thing happened. He

    20 placed himself behind the victim, then nudged him with

    21 the pistol, and then moved or went behind so that you

    22 could not see him, and then again one could hear two

    23 muffled shots. Then Goran would come back again and

    24 reach that group of soldiers who were there, and then

    25 they would chat again for a while and laugh as if

  64. 1 nothing had happened, as if nothing was happening.

    2 I remember that he asked us then -- or rather

    3 he asked, "What are you doing outside," meaning us who

    4 were waiting for those passes, and the guy who was

    5 writing the passes told him, "Well, these are men who

    6 will be released because a Serb is guaranteeing for

    7 them," and then he laughed, turned in our direction and

    8 said, "Oh, you are those five per cent of the lucky

    9 ones who will survive, and in future when you meet me

    10 in the town, you'll treat me to a drink." We said

    11 nothing. We just stood there with our heads down. We

    12 dared not look at him because that look might draw his

    13 attention, and realising what kind of a man he was, of

    14 course we were afraid to look at him.

    15 Q. The third person to leave the office block,

    16 how long later?

    17 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it could have

    18 been 10, 15, 20 minutes later. I think the intervals

    19 were more or less the same. That is, meanwhile you

    20 hear screams, and then the door opens again and the

    21 third person comes out and he looks the same, and it

    22 almost defies description. Very many lacerations,

    23 scratches around the eyes, head, blood on the hair,

    24 unnatural posture as if some bones had been broken, and

    25 in such a state that they were barely able to move one

  65. 1 foot at a time. Again with the pistol in his back, he

    2 was directed to move in the same direction, and when

    3 they would get out of our sight, then one would hear

    4 again those two shots, and Goran would be back alone

    5 and would join again that group of soldiers standing

    6 outside.

    7 Q. The fourth detainee to leave the office, tell

    8 us about him.

    9 A. The fourth victim or, rather, the fourth

    10 person, as far as I could see, he looked even worse.

    11 That is, he practically could not walk by himself. One

    12 of his arms was hanging as if something had been broken

    13 and he could not control it. When he came out, Goran

    14 pushed him with a pistol and the man simply could not

    15 stand on his feet. He did not fall his full length,

    16 but he went down on his knees, and Goran was behind

    17 him, that is, the Serb Adolf, he was some two or three

    18 metres behind him, so he came to him and got him under

    19 the armpits to help him stand up so that he could walk

    20 again. He had barely done that, he gave a shiver as if

    21 when somebody is disgusted by something, and he said

    22 something to the effect that, "I must be crazy. I'm

    23 helping a balija to stand up and I've got my hands

    24 soiled."

    25 That man whom he had helped to stand up, he

  66. 1 was moving very, very slowly in the same direction as

    2 the previous victims. Then he came up very close with

    3 his automatic pistol with a silencer, and from very

    4 close quarters, at close range, some 20 or 30

    5 centimetres, fired at the back of his head. It is a

    6 terrible impact. It's as if you're throwing a man from

    7 a height so that he fell. Then he came up to him,

    8 straddled the victim and was somewhere at the level of

    9 the victim's knees, and then standing above him, he

    10 shot him in the back, somewhere in the region of the

    11 heart.

    12 Then he moved around and showed the two

    13 persons who had been issued the passes and were waiting

    14 to be released and told them to take the victim behind

    15 the corner. So they got the victim under the armpits

    16 and drew him around the corner, presumably to where all

    17 the other victims -- Goran's victims were.

    18 Q. This man who had shot and killed the other

    19 man, what did he then do or say and to whom?

    20 A. Among this group of soldiers who were

    21 standing there, I think I forgot to say that, before

    22 Goran killed this fourth one in front of us, this guy

    23 came to the table and called us names: "Balija

    24 cowards, why don't you fight? You should fight. You

    25 see me; my father is an Albanian, my mother is a Croat,

  67. 1 and I am fighting for the Serb army." I think he said

    2 something like that, and I also think, but I am not

    3 quite sure, that he said his name was Branko. And he

    4 showed that he had a very thin leather kind of a choker

    5 around his neck. On this leather ribbon there was a

    6 bullet, and he said, "I will fight for Yugoslavia until

    7 my last breath, and this is the bullet for me if I

    8 fail." Of course, we did not comment; we just kept

    9 silent because we were afraid that it might be

    10 dangerous and that we might provoke them.

    11 So when the -- to go back to your question,

    12 Goran again approached that group, and at that moment,

    13 that Branko -- I'm not quite sure if that was his name,

    14 but I just think so, but I saw him approach Branko and

    15 tell him, "This is the 68th."

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to

    17 interrupt you for a moment, Witness F. Witness F,

    18 except when you have to indicate something on the ELMO,

    19 when you answer, please try to face the Judges. Thank

    20 you.

    21 MR. NICE:

    22 Q. So he said, "This is the 68th." Please carry

    23 on with what was said from there.

    24 A. Branko asked, "68th? 68th what?" He was

    25 asking the question; he didn't understand what this 68

  68. 1 meant. And Goran said, "Well, the 68th balija. There

    2 are 68 balijas less," and said something like, "Oh,

    3 Lord, how many more will I have to kill before this is

    4 all over?"

    5 Q. Anything else said by Branko or the other

    6 man?

    7 A. And then Branko said -- that is, the person

    8 that I think is called Branko -- he told Goran then

    9 that if he wanted to take a rest, he was quite ready to

    10 take his place, that is, he could go on with his job.

    11 And Goran said, "No, no." I mean, this is a job which

    12 he doesn't find difficult, and also said that when he

    13 felt like having a drink, he would count on him.

    14 If the Court will permit me, I should like to

    15 add that it's very difficult to describe the conduct of

    16 that man, and that Branko too. They somehow behaved as

    17 if this was a film rather than real life. They were

    18 laughing, they simply laughed at those moments, and

    19 it's really beyond comprehension. Goran's eyes, there

    20 was something in them which I can't really explain.

    21 They looked as if he wasn't quite normal. In his look

    22 there was something -- there was something so -- so

    23 powerful and so cruel, I mean, his eyes were not

    24 laughing, only his mouth was laughing. It is very

    25 difficult to explain it. I used to see that kind of

  69. 1 thing in films, and that is how I would explain it. I

    2 mean, he would laugh, but it would be only his mouth.

    3 His eyes were not laughing. It was as if in a man who

    4 was not quite normal, that is, the only way how I can

    5 explain it.

    6 Q. So we turn to the fifth detainee you saw.

    7 How long after the fourth was it that the fifth came

    8 out of the office?

    9 A. Well, it was -- again, these intervals were

    10 all about the same; ten or fifteen minutes, twenty,

    11 perhaps. It is difficult to be quite accurate.

    12 Q. What happened to the fifth detainee?

    13 A. Well, not to repeat myself, it's the same

    14 thing. The victim came out through this door

    15 [indicating]. Again, Goran came somewhere around here

    16 [indicating], midway between where he came out and the

    17 place you could no longer see them behind the corner.

    18 And that victim here [indicating], perhaps a little bit

    19 further down, he nudged with his automatic pistol, thus

    20 setting the direction. I want to repeat, again, the

    21 victim was again in a very similar condition, barely

    22 being able to walk, covered in blood, breathing

    23 heavily, all deformed, very unnatural walk.

    24 And then, whether he simply didn't feel like

    25 walking on foot or whether it was a method of

  70. 1 intimidation for us, but then the same thing happened

    2 all over again. That is, he put the -- from some 20 or

    3 30 centimetres, that is, at a very close range, he

    4 fired at the neck of the victim. The victim fell, face

    5 to the ground, and then he came close up to the victim

    6 and fired in the back, somewhere in the region of the

    7 heart, and would again point to persons amongst us

    8 waiting for the release, indicating that we were to

    9 take the victim round the corner.

    10 Of course, they had to do that. After some

    11 ten or fifteen seconds, those guys came back, and

    12 meanwhile -- so it was already after 8.00 in the

    13 evening. It was getting dark, and naturally we were

    14 even more scared than before, because we had been told

    15 that the curfew was as of 21.00, and after that, nobody

    16 was allowed to move about, and our localities were

    17 rather far away from Luka, from that port. We knew

    18 that we needed at least two hours to get home on foot,

    19 and we were telling those lads who were all the time

    20 around here -- I mean those lads from the military

    21 police -- "What about the transportation?" Because we

    22 were afraid that if --

    23 Q. Taking it short, were you eventually escorted

    24 out that night?

    25 A. Yes. The promised bus never arrived, but

  71. 1 then they let us walk out, except that the military

    2 police kept walking around us, driving around us in a

    3 car, and we had to go through countless checkpoints of

    4 the Serb army and Chetniks so that we would be

    5 effectively prevented from getting home within the

    6 time.

    7 Q. Back to Luka: After that fifth man had been

    8 shot by Adolf, what, if anything, did he do? What

    9 happened, if anything, to his gun?

    10 A. After the fifth victim, they took a guy

    11 called Danijel for interrogation. He was a resident of

    12 Kolobara. And he was beaten. I guess that a door must

    13 have been left open so that we could hear better. He

    14 was subjected to a severe beating. They had found an

    15 automatic pistol on him, and they were asking him where

    16 did he get it from, and asked him to admit that he was

    17 a Green Beret, or why had he bought that pistol? And

    18 he was screaming and repeating, saying that he had

    19 never intended using it against the Serb forces, that

    20 he had only got it in order to protect his family, his

    21 wife and his children. And at that moment we were

    22 released, so that I do not know. I heard that he had

    23 been killed, but at that moment we left Luka, so I

    24 cannot really say anything specifically.

    25 Q. My question, though, was: What did Adolf do

  72. 1 after killing the fifth man, and what, if anything, did

    2 he do with his gun?

    3 A. That person who introduced himself as the

    4 Serb Adolf turned over his automatic gun with a muffler

    5 to a person whom I remember going by the name Branko,

    6 and told him, "There. Now is your chance to make a

    7 notch on the butt, because after you kill your balijas,

    8 your Muslim persons, then you should know the number."

    9 And he said that he was going to have a drink and this

    10 Branko would relieve him. And at that moment we were

    11 released, so that I don't know what happened.

    12 MR. NICE: Next exhibit, please.

    13 Q. Convert what you've described into a sketch

    14 that I think you drew, and we can deal with this

    15 exhibit very swiftly. Was this drawn by you or by

    16 someone at your direction?

    17 A. I drew that with my own hand when I made the

    18 statement to the United Nations authorities.

    19 Q. We can see the hangar, the lane or roadway,

    20 and we can see the offices above it?

    21 A. Yes, this is the hangar [indicating]; this is

    22 the entrance door [indicating]; and across is the Port

    23 Authority building, the administrative building, that

    24 is. And this is the corner [indicating] around which

    25 Adolf would disappear with his victims and come back.

  73. 1 And this is roughly where they took out the victims

    2 [indicating]. So he would take this direction, this

    3 lane [indicating], and then turn the corner, and we

    4 wouldn't see him again.

    5 Q. You see between the office and the hangar --

    6 it's not very clear on our screens, but I think you've

    7 written the numbers 4 and 5; is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. That represents what?

    10 A. This is the place where, in front of our

    11 eyes, Goran killed victims number 4 and 5.

    12 Q. Thank you very much. We can also see, just

    13 before turning from this exhibit, little blocks at the

    14 top of the exhibit marked houses. Can you remember if

    15 those were visible from the roadway where you were?

    16 A. Up to a point. That is, these houses were on

    17 a slight elevation, on a slope, so that I think -- I

    18 believe that we could see some of those houses.

    19 Q. Thank you.

    20 MR. NICE: May the witness please see an

    21 exhibit already produced, Exhibit 3. I have spare

    22 copies if anybody is short of one.

    23 Q. Two things, and only two things. How does

    24 the gun you can see there compare with the gun you've

    25 spoken of? And if you look at the right-hand side of

  74. 1 the man there, how does the baton we can see hanging

    2 there compare with the baton you've described?

    3 A. Yes, this is the so-called Scorpio, that is,

    4 an automatic gun. I'm very familiar with it because

    5 when I served in the Yugoslav People's Army, I had it

    6 as my personal weapon. It is an automatic pistol, and

    7 it can fire individually. It has a regulating

    8 mechanism and it has a butt. Here it is [indicating].

    9 It is pulled out, and in front, you have the muffler

    10 mounted. You can see it very well.

    11 The baton is a baton, that is, a stick. It

    12 looked just like this one, except that you can't see

    13 here on this photograph, it was much longer. I don't

    14 remember ever seeing a policeman who was carrying such

    15 a long baton.

    16 Q. Thank you. On your walk or march away from

    17 Luka through the various checkpoints, did you hear

    18 something of the identification of one of the people

    19 who had been killed or who was known to be killed?

    20 Paragraph 31 in the summary.

    21 A. Yes, as we walked in the column -- when

    22 leaving Luka, that is -- I heard as we were walking,

    23 from people who carried the killed victim, that -- they

    24 looked very bad. They looked very bad. They were

    25 shaking with fear. They said that there were about 20

  75. 1 people piled up, and that they saw a huge black stain

    2 near that group, as if something had been washed with

    3 oil or petrol, and that they felt the stench of a

    4 burned human body. They were really scared stiff.

    5 They were shaking as they were talking.

    6 And one of them -- I don't know his name; I

    7 can't recall it -- he said -- I mean, as they were

    8 telling us this story, they mentioned a couple of

    9 names. I remember one, and that is Jasmin Cumurovic,

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted). And another

    12 name that they mentioned, I can't remember it now.

    13 MR. NICE: Two more exhibits, each of them a

    14 list of names. I can certainly deal with one this

    15 afternoon, but I wasn't alert to the need to produce

    16 the other one; it might be more convenient to deal with

    17 it tomorrow morning, if that's acceptable to the

    18 Court.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We are going to

    20 work until 6.00. Let me remind you of that.

    21 Don't we go until 6.00, Mr. Registrar?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, we

    24 continue until 6.00.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit

  76. 1 12.

    2 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    3 Q. Witness F, were you asked this morning to

    4 look at a list of names in alphabetical order that

    5 looked something like but wasn't exactly the same as

    6 the list before you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I can show the

    9 original version -- in fact, I think I have already

    10 shown the version to Mr. Greaves.

    11 Q. Did you look through that list to see whether

    12 there were any names on the list who were known to you

    13 or whose fate was known to you? Can I therefore take

    14 you to certain names and invite you to tell us what you

    15 know, if anything, of what happened to these people,

    16 and also how you got to know of it, if you can now

    17 remember. On that first sheet -- and as the Court will

    18 appreciate, another witness or witnesses will be

    19 producing the original version of this list, which has

    20 been simply typed up to make it more legible -- but

    21 four up from the bottom, Stipo Glavosevic: What can

    22 you tell us about that name?

    23 A. I knew this gentleman very well because we

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted). He was a lawyer. And I also heard from

  77. 1 friends and acquaintances that he was killed at Luka;

    2 not only was he killed, but he was first tortured, that

    3 he was beaten very badly, and that his ears were

    4 eventually cut off, that he had covered his ears with

    5 his hands when the blood started coming out of them,

    6 and that he apparently asked these Serbian killers to

    7 kill him.

    8 Q. Thank you.

    9 A. And that one of them did, eventually. I was

    10 told this by another co-worker. He said that the

    11 Serbian soldier told him to kiss his boot and then he

    12 would kill him. Then he did kiss his boot and was

    13 killed by this soldier.

    14 Q. The following name on the list, Mehmed

    15 Glinac?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What can you tell us, if anything, about that

    18 name?

    19 A. I can tell that (redacted)

    20 (redacted), and that I saw him at Luka when

    21 I was there, that he had been brought there, and then I

    22 do not know anything about him. I have not heard

    23 anything.

    24 Q. If you could turn to the second sheet of this

    25 list, please. There are, five or six lines up from the

  78. 1 bottom, there are two names, Kartal, and one name,

    2 Kevric. Are those names known to you?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Tell us about the first two names.

    5 A. Kasim and Rasim Kartal were two brothers whom

    6 I knew rather well because my parents and their parents

    7 were very good friends. And I can also say that I

    8 don't know anything about their fate. I believe that

    9 they are still considered as missing, so nothing is

    10 known.

    11 Q. But they were people known to you?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The next name, Sead Kevric?

    14 A. I also knew Mr. Kevric, but -- I got to know

    15 him very well because he lived in my neighbourhood, but

    16 I cannot tell you anything about his fate. I never saw

    17 him again.

    18 Q. Thank you. Then, I think, over two sheets to

    19 page number 4: Does the name "Terzic" mean anything to

    20 you?

    21 A. There are several persons named Terzic. They

    22 were all brothers. I saw them at Luka. I personally

    23 do not know what happened to them, but I heard from

    24 many people that they were all killed. A lot was said

    25 about that because it was a family tragedy.

  79. 1 Q. Thank you.

    2 MR. NICE: For the purposes of ease of our

    3 recollection, that's the longer list, the 100-plus

    4 list. The next list, which I now produce, is a shorter

    5 list, I think 39, again --

    6 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I hesitate to rise

    7 and interrupt my learned friend. I notice from the

    8 list -- can I draw your attention to page 4 -- that

    9 there are two sets of names which are very similar. I

    10 want it clarified which set of names he is talking

    11 about, please.

    12 MR. NICE: Certainly. Of course.

    13 Would you just return to the previous

    14 exhibit, and if you would like to place sheet 4 of the

    15 previous exhibit on the ELMO.

    16 Q. When you were speaking of the brothers whose

    17 fate was well known, you said, can you point out which

    18 ones you were speaking of? That's T-E-R-Z-I-C.

    19 A. Yes, I can. These are the Terzic brothers,

    20 Ekrem, Enes, and Muhamed. These are the persons I was

    21 referring to.

    22 Q. I'm grateful to Mr. Greaves, because we must

    23 then turn to the next one, Tursic. Do you know

    24 something of either of those two names, Aldin or Almir,

    25 or not?

  80. 1 A. I can only say that the Tursic brothers lived

    2 very close to where I did, (redacted). I saw

    3 both of them at Luka, and never again. I don't know

    4 what happened to them.

    5 Q. Indeed, to your knowledge, have you seen any

    6 of the names on this list which you were first invited

    7 to look at this morning, have you seen any of the names

    8 on this list since Luka, since your time in Luka?

    9 My mistake. I think my microphone may have

    10 been off. Have you seen any of the names on this list

    11 since your time in Luka, Witness F?

    12 A. Among the persons who we mentioned, not one.

    13 Q. Thank you.

    14 MR. NICE: Exhibit 13, please.

    15 Q. I think you were asked to look at this list

    16 of names shortly and only this afternoon; is that

    17 correct? But are some of the names familiar to you?

    18 And I think we start at Number 2 --

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. -- and if you would like just to point it out

    21 on the list so that we can be quite sure we're looking

    22 at the right name. Number 2 on the list.

    23 A. It's Number 2, Ahmed Hodzic, also known as

    24 Papa. I knew him well from before, and he lived in the

    25 Kolobara neighbourhood. He was a member of the

  81. 1 resistance against the Serbo-Chetniks. He defended his

    2 neighbourhood, and I know that he too was killed.

    3 Q. Numbers 6 and 7, were their names known to

    4 you? Do you know what, if anything, happened?

    5 A. Yes. These are -- I don't know. I know

    6 these persons, but I don't know about them.

    7 Q. Number 8, was that person known to you?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. What happened to --

    10 A. Very well, yes, I know him very well. He was

    11 also brought to Luka.

    12 Q. So far as you know, what happened to him?

    13 A. He too was killed. I was told this later by

    14 some friends of mine who also knew him quite well.

    15 Apparently, he was accused of being an activist of the

    16 party, and as far as I know, he was not. He, like all

    17 of us, he was just somebody from the town and wasn't

    18 particularly active.

    19 This is why -- this explains -- the fact that

    20 about 10.000 Muslims stayed home says clearly that they

    21 did not expect this, that they were very naive, and

    22 they paid with their lives for that. Those are the

    23 facts.

    24 Q. Sheet 2, number 16.

    25 A. Yes. Sakib Becirevic, also known as Kibe, he

  82. 1 worked as a butcher for the same company and was

    2 killed. The word is that a Ranko Cesic, the other

    3 person who is wanted by this Tribunal, was the one who

    4 killed him. This is what is well known there.

    5 Q. 19, 20, and 21 you've already referred to on

    6 the other list?

    7 A. Yes. Those were the three Terzic brothers

    8 who were also killed. That is certain.

    9 Q. 23?

    10 A. Yes, Vasif Sulejmanovic, also well known in

    11 the town because he worked at the local Brcko TV

    12 station, and he was also killed later.

    13 Q. Over the page to number 33?

    14 A. Yes. Mr. Himzo Kevric, also well known in

    15 Brcko. He was a merchant, very well known, and I also

    16 knew him well because I was very close with his sons,

    17 and I came in and visited him often. He worked in the

    18 Serbian part of -- he lived in the Serbian part of town

    19 near Luka.

    20 Q. 36?

    21 A. Osman Vatic, also well-known figure in town.

    22 He was an attorney at law. He headed a law office in

    23 town. He was well liked. Terrible stories are being

    24 told about his fate, not only that he was killed but

    25 that along with his wife, he was tortured for a very

  83. 1 long time, abused in many ways, and then only in the

    2 end killed. Because he was a wealthy man, he was kept

    3 alive until he gave them his Mercedes car, his gold,

    4 and everything else.

    5 Q. Number 39?

    6 A. 39 is Izudin Brodlic, also a very well-known

    7 person in our town. He had a private shoe shop, so

    8 that people in Brcko knew him very well. He was also

    9 killed in his house, as far as I know. He also lived

    10 near the barracks.

    11 Q. Thank you. You've spoken of the man who you

    12 knew because he was introduced or he introduced himself

    13 as Adolf, but you've spoken of him using another name.

    14 Where did you get the other name from and when?

    15 A. After my release from Luka, I went back to my

    16 friend's apartment where I had been before I was taken

    17 to the prison, that is, to Luka, and this is very

    18 dangerous. Very often Serbian soldiers, Chetniks,

    19 paramilitaries, would come in, and they behaved in all

    20 different kinds of ways. It was very dangerous being a

    21 Muslim there.

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 would take us there in his own car, and this is what

  84. 1 happened.

    2 (redacted)

    3 was there, and only because he knew me so very well and

    4 he had some integrity, he took us in and said that we

    5 could work there, but we didn't leave the premises

    6 because it was very dangerous.

    7 Also later other people who worked at (redacted)

    8 were released and who were essential for certain types

    9 of work, and so it is from them that I later learned

    10 that the person who was calling himself the Serbian

    11 Adolf was actually called Goran Jelisic.

    12 MR. NICE: That concludes what I want to ask

    13 this witness.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    15 Mr. Greaves?

    16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I wonder whether

    17 you want me to start this evening or want to hear it

    18 all in one go, rather than have it in two disjointed --

    19 one small bit and then a longer bit tomorrow. I'm

    20 entirely in your hands.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, there is

    22 still ten minutes, and you can begin. Every minute is

    23 precious. You know that. Yes, please proceed.

    24 Witness F, Defence counsel for Goran Jelisic

    25 are going to ask you some questions.

  85. 1 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    2 Q. Witness F, just help me, please, if you

    3 will. If there is a question of mine which you don't

    4 understand, please don't be shy. Just stop me

    5 straightaway and ask me to explain it again. All

    6 right?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. I would like to ask you first of all, please,

    9 when you made a statement to the International

    10 Tribunal, I think you were then in the BiH army. Is

    11 that correct?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Are you still in that employment?

    14 A. I was never employed by the BiH army. I only

    15 defended my people and my country against the

    16 occupation.

    17 Q. I perhaps put it badly, but are you still

    18 serving in the BiH army?

    19 A. No, because there is no need for it any

    20 longer.

    21 Q. I would like to ask you, please, this: As

    22 far as yourself is concerned, I think you're now about

    23 38. Is that right?

    24 A. Perhaps.

    25 Q. Yes. I don't want to get into the exact

  86. 1 dates, but I think you were born in September 1961.

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. You would therefore have been 30 at the time

    4 of the war in May 1992?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Can I ask you this, Witness F: Prior to May

    7 1992, were you personally involved in politics in any

    8 way --

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. -- or a member of a political party before

    11 the war?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Did you become a member of any political

    14 party during the war?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Since the war, have you become a member of a

    17 political party?

    18 A. No. I was never politically active or a

    19 member of any political party.

    20 Q. Thank you very much.

    21 I want now just briefly to ask you some

    22 questions about the period immediately before the

    23 beginning of fighting in Brcko.

    24 You were asked by my learned friend about the

    25 events in late April 1992. At that time prior to the

  87. 1 blowing of the bridges that was described to you, were

    2 you aware that there was about to be fighting in that

    3 area?

    4 A. No. One could assume that, I guess, but I

    5 didn't know or nobody knew that this would happen.

    6 Otherwise, I would not wait for them to do to me what

    7 they did.

    8 Q. Of course. Just this, please, Witness F:

    9 You say that you could assume that there was going to

    10 be something happening. Was that because you were

    11 aware of the political developments taking place in the

    12 Brcko area or because of the wider picture of what was

    13 happening in the former Yugoslavia?

    14 A. Yes. I felt, like any citizen of Bosnia at

    15 that time, that the situation was becoming serious and

    16 dangerous in a way, but I believe that essentially my

    17 answer is very simple. I did not want a war, and I

    18 perhaps would -- I perhaps assumed that there would be

    19 some minor skirmishes or duels between the extremist

    20 factions, but I didn't think that that would actually

    21 happen. Otherwise, I wouldn't have stayed at home.

    22 And tens of thousands of Bosniaks stayed

    23 home, and when people came to their homes, they still

    24 did not believe that something like this would happen,

    25 things that did happen later. It is a fact that tens

  88. 1 of thousands of Bosnian Muslims, together with their

    2 families, stayed in the municipal area at the mercy of

    3 the Serb Chetnik occupiers, and I think that that is

    4 very clear.

    5 Q. Witness F, I just want to ask you this very

    6 briefly about one of the lists that you've been

    7 examined about today, and I'll return to it in due

    8 course. But the second list that you went through, the

    9 one that you looked at this afternoon for the first

    10 time, that's a list containing a number of people who

    11 were active in either local affairs or political

    12 affairs? Would this be right, that those people that

    13 you knew on that list, those people were involved in

    14 politics; is that right?

    15 A. Frankly, I believe they were not, because

    16 were they politically involved and if they knew what

    17 was going to go on, I don't think that they would share

    18 the fate of all the victims, which they eventually

    19 did. So logically speaking, I don't think it makes

    20 sense that they were politically involved.

    21 Q. You've told us that you were conscious of the

    22 picture of what was developing in the wider Yugoslavia,

    23 and I perhaps asked the question badly, but were you

    24 also aware of political developments at a local level

    25 in Brcko, you yourself?

  89. 1 A. Yes, yes. I think you just reminded me of

    2 something quite important which cost many people their

    3 lives.

    4 The conflict officially started on 1 May

    5 between 4.00 and 5.00 in the afternoon. This is when

    6 officially the shooting started and the shelling

    7 started. In the course of that day and even in the

    8 following day, the conflict was broadcast in the media,

    9 and it was said that the members of all the political

    10 parties, that is, all three parties in Brcko, were

    11 reported to have agreed to a division of Brcko. And it

    12 is not something that I need to go into, but I believe

    13 that that was part of the reason why so many people

    14 believed in it and stayed home and eventually became

    15 victims of the treachery and genocide. This is what

    16 I'm certain of, but I believe that this is a wholly

    17 different subject matter, so that -- the local

    18 politics, I believe.

    19 The point is the Serbian side always had the

    20 position of force because they knew that they had the

    21 JNA behind them with their military might, because the

    22 Serbian population was in minority in the Brcko

    23 municipality, only 20 per cent, and it is absurd that

    24 they should still call Brcko Serbian when the last

    25 census clearly points to the overall structure of the

  90. 1 population in Brcko.

    2 Despite all of that, I believe that since our

    3 population did not want a war, which again is confirmed

    4 by this terrible suffering, I believe that our local

    5 authorities -- and imagine a town of that size to be

    6 divided between the three communities. It is not

    7 normal -- it is not possible to retain any kind of

    8 normal life there, but I believe that this was a policy

    9 of the official government, the government elected in

    10 the last election in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in order to

    11 prevent the war. I believe and the events show that

    12 the Serbs did not need any hostages or needed

    13 provocation.

    14 Who were we to wage war there? We lived with

    15 our neighbours.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm going to

    17 interrupt you, Witness F. Try to answer concisely.

    18 You understand that this is not really a forum here. I

    19 understand that you do want to present your ideas and

    20 opinions which are respectable and defendable, given

    21 all that you have suffered, but I would like us to

    22 focus as much as possible on the questions that are

    23 asked both by the Prosecution and the Defence.

    24 Would you like to add something about the

    25 question that Mr. Jelisic's Defence counsel asked or

  91. 1 have you more or less finished what you have to say?

    2 A. I can -- I'm finished. I believe that I said

    3 everything that I think was essential with regards to

    4 Mr. Jelisic, the so-called Adolf. I think I said

    5 everything I had to, but I wanted to point out that

    6 what I did not see with my own eyes, and these are

    7 horrible stories that I heard, I did not mention but I

    8 told just what I saw, and as I took a solemn

    9 declaration, this is the whole truth and nothing but

    10 the truth, and I wish it were otherwise.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We have not

    12 completed with your questions, Witness F, but will

    13 resume tomorrow at 10.00 in the morning. I hope that

    14 you can rest this evening, and Witness F, you have to

    15 come back tomorrow.

    16 Thank you very much.

    17 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    19 6.04 p.m., to be reconvened on

    20 Tuesday, the 31st day of August,

    21 1999, at 10.00 a.m.