1. 1Wednesday, 1st September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    5 seated.

    6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in.

    7 [The accused entered court]

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can the

    9 interpreters hear me? Very well. Can Defence counsel

    10 hear? Can Prosecution counsel hear?

    11 The accused, Mr. Jelisic, would you please

    12 rise and tell us how you feel?

    13 THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] My

    14 health condition has not really improved, but we

    15 decided not to disrupt the court proceedings, and out

    16 of respect for you, Your Honours, and the witnesses who

    17 suffered a lot in Brcko and have travelled all the way

    18 over here.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. If

    20 you have any problems at all -- please be seated. If

    21 you have any problems, do not hesitate to ask for the

    22 floor, and we'll find a solution. I was asked, and I

    23 agreed, that there be a nurse nearby, if necessary.

    24 I think that we can now resume our trial and

    25 perhaps ask the Prosecutor to bring in the next

  2. 1witness.

    2 I think this is a public hearing, at least

    3 that's what the registrar told me, that we would be in

    4 public hearing. Is that correct? Yes, that is.

    5 Mr. Nice, would you tell us who the next

    6 witness is? I believe he had already come in and

    7 already taken an oath. That is Witness G.

    8 MR. NICE: Indeed it is, and because it's a

    9 protected witness, the screens must come down, but only

    10 briefly while he comes in.

    11 I'm happy to tell Your Honour that the five

    12 witnesses whose summaries were provided yesterday are

    13 not the subject of any contest so far as the Defence is

    14 concerned. They are content for them to be called.

    15 They won't take very long, as you'll see from the

    16 summaries, and I'll make arrangements for their travel

    17 accordingly.

    18 I'm further happy to tell Your Honour that

    19 Mr. Greaves has been extremely helpful this morning in

    20 agreeing that certain parts of the statement summary of

    21 Witness G may indeed be simply presented to him in

    22 a led form, and I'm grateful to him for that, and that

    23 will save some time.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We agree to

    25 that in order to save as much time as possible, thanks

  3. 1to you, but we are imposing nothing on the Defence.

    2 The Defence will conduct the cross-examination as it

    3 sees fit. I encourage the Defence to try to save as

    4 much time as possible, but I can only encourage him to

    5 do so. However, I am asking you, insofar as possible,

    6 Mr. Prosecutor, if you consider it desirable, to use

    7 your summaries which were given to the Judges.

    8 [Trial Chamber confers]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, we

    10 have a question that we're concerned with. We would

    11 like to ask it before the witness comes in.

    12 As regards the summary of Witness G's

    13 statement, are you going to ask for it as an admission

    14 as an exhibit or are you not?

    15 MR. NICE: It had not originally been my

    16 intention to ask for them to be exhibited. They were,

    17 as I think I characterised them, a tool to help the

    18 Tribunal know what evidence could be given and so on.

    19 Yesterday, Your Honour decided that an

    20 appropriate way forward would be for the witness to

    21 acknowledge the summary as effectively a document of

    22 his and to sign it and for it then to be produced.

    23 That could only be done if the witness, being literate,

    24 had read a version himself in a language he

    25 understands, alternatively has had read to him by an

  4. 1interpreter a version in a language he does not

    2 understand.

    3 With this witness, I understand that he has

    4 this morning gone through the B/C/S version and is,

    5 indeed, in a position, if this is what the Court would

    6 find appropriate, is in a position to sign it, and it

    7 can then become an exhibit. With a later witness, who

    8 is either not literate or less literate, he would only

    9 be able to acknowledge a version as having been

    10 something he believes to have been read over to him by

    11 an interpreter. But on that basis, he could sign it as

    12 well.

    13 So I'm quite happy to do that, but

    14 notwithstanding the witness's signing of it, I shall be

    15 taking him through some of the important parts that I

    16 understand to be in dispute with the Defence. But I

    17 shall, of course, be able to do things so much more

    18 quickly with the aid of this tool.

    19 I hope that's acceptable.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you have any

    21 problems with that, Mr. Greaves?

    22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, no, strictly

    23 speaking, a summary is not evidence. But if the

    24 witness acknowledges it, then of course that becomes

    25 part of the evidence.

  5. 1JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. We

    2 can have Witness G brought into the courtroom now.

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me,

    5 Witness G?

    6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    8 Please be seated, Witness G. I believe you have

    9 already taken the oath. You can now be seated. Thank

    10 you for being patient.

    11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm sure all of

    13 the problems that occurred yesterday have been

    14 explained to you which were the cause of the

    15 postponement of your testimony, but I think that now

    16 there are no further problems.

    17 Mr. Prosecutor must have spoken to you about

    18 the summary of the various statements you made. It

    19 will be very important for you to indicate whether you

    20 recognise this or acknowledge this summary as being

    21 valid as expressing your statements, because if

    22 necessary, we're going to use it as an exhibit. But we

    23 will let the Prosecutor do his work.

    24 Mr. Nice, please proceed.

    25 WITNESS: G (Resumed)

  6. 1Examined by Mr. Nice:

    2 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    3 Q. Would you look at this piece of paper that's

    4 being shown --

    5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

    6 please.

    7 MR. NICE:

    8 Q. My apologies. Will you look, please, at this

    9 piece of paper that's being shown to you, and say

    10 nothing except "Yes" or "No" in answer to the

    11 question. Is that your name?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. NICE: If the usher would be so good as

    14 to just show this document to the witness, please.

    15 Just hand it to the witness, please.

    16 Q. Witness G, is this a document that was shown

    17 to you last night and that you were able to read?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Is it accurate?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Could you please just put your name -- you

    22 will be given a pen; perhaps you could just put your

    23 name at the end of it.

    24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, the problem is it's

    25 Witness G for this Court. I think, if he produces the

  7. 1document and acknowledges its accuracy on our

    2 transcript, that makes the connection between the

    3 document, its accuracy, and the witness, and avoids any

    4 name having to be given which would then have to be

    5 withdrawn or withheld. Copies available for the Court

    6 in B/C/S.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you,

    8 Mr. Nice. You said exactly what I was going to say.

    9 The connection between the witness and his own

    10 acknowledgement of the document must be indicated, and

    11 once that's indicated in the transcript, I think that

    12 will be enough.

    13 MR. NICE: The Court already has copies of

    14 this document in English and French, and I'll be

    15 grateful at some stage for the exhibit number.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution

    17 Exhibit 15, 15A for the French version and 15B for the

    18 B/C/S version.

    19 MR. NICE:

    20 Q. Witness G, I'm going to ask you to deal with

    21 the following question simply by telling me if what I

    22 propose is correct. Resident in Brcko when the bridges

    23 were blown on the 30th of April of 1992, did your

    24 family stay with relations in Moaca while you stayed at

    25 your home in Kolobara, a Muslim area, where you helped

  8. 1to organise patrols to protect homes; over the next few

    2 days, was there an escalation in military activity with

    3 trucks carrying military personnel seen arriving in

    4 Brcko sporting artillery and could -- I beg your

    5 pardon -- with artillery and small-arms fire being

    6 heard coming from neighbouring hamlets? Is that

    7 correct?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. On the 4th of May, were you, with others,

    10 hiding in the basement of a neighbour's house when you

    11 were expelled by Serb military forces and marched to

    12 the town mosque; on departure from the area of your

    13 house, did you see that it, along with other houses,

    14 was on fire?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Were you detained at the mosque for two days,

    17 while there, women and children were being separated

    18 from men of military age, and they were taken away in

    19 vehicles?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. While at the mosque, paragraph 5, was there a

    22 man called or known as Papa who you saw dealt with in a

    23 particular way? And it's not necessary -- you can

    24 look at the -- with the Court's leave, you can look at

    25 the summary, but I would be quite happy if you can deal

  9. 1with this from your own memory, unless you have any

    2 difficulty.

    3 Was there a man known as Papa, and what

    4 happened to him? In just a sentence.

    5 A. Yes, there was. He was taken out into the

    6 hallway. He was beaten, and later he was taken across

    7 over there to the hospital, and then he was led away.

    8 That's it.

    9 Q. On the 6th of May, what happened to you?

    10 A. On the 6th of May, we were transferred from

    11 the mosque, in trucks, to the barracks.

    12 Q. When there, was there a person you got to

    13 know and recognise wearing a uniform?

    14 A. While we were standing in front of the

    15 building where we were kept, I noticed a person in a

    16 blue uniform with a bandaged hand talking to a group of

    17 prisoners. I approached in order to hear what was

    18 being said, and then I heard this man say, "70 per cent

    19 of you should be killed, 30 per cent should be dealt

    20 with and beaten up," and then, out of those numbers,

    21 maybe about 3 per cent were all right. And then he

    22 said, "All of you are going to come to me," and cursed

    23 our balija mothers. I did not know this person at the

    24 time. Only when I arrived in Luka did I recognise him.

    25 Q. When did you arrive in Luka?

  10. 1A. I arrived in Luka on the 8th of May, in the

    2 afternoon.

    3 Q. When you arrived there, where did you first

    4 wait?

    5 A. We waited by the first hangar, to the left of

    6 the hangar and facing it.

    7 MR. NICE: Can the witness look at this

    8 document, please, which, although it's similar to an

    9 earlier exhibit, it may perhaps serve a useful

    10 purpose. It's a little clearer, I think, and will, I

    11 think, become Exhibit 16.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution

    13 Exhibit 16.

    14 MR. NICE:

    15 Q. Witness G, if you wish to point something out

    16 on the photograph, the usher will hand you a pointer.

    17 Stay in your seat, in order to preserve your facial

    18 anonymity, and use the pointer in your hand to indicate

    19 things.

    20 MR. NICE: I think that you're straining the

    21 machine a little; we've lost our picture.

    22 Thank you very much.

    23 There's a mistake there, I think, in

    24 the -- thank you. Something's seriously wrong. Can

    25 the video be turned off, please?

  11. 1I don't know what's gone wrong, Your Honour,

    2 if Your Honour is looking at the video.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: There's a technical problem.

    4 The video booth has just told me there's a problem.

    5 MR. NICE: Again, Your Honour, the wrong

    6 image entirely is coming up on the screen. Yes, can

    7 you press "Video Evidence"? I'm sure the Chamber has.

    8 You see the problem.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] For the public

    10 gallery, what's happening?

    11 [Trial Chamber confers]

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    13 have the public taken out of the public gallery, unless

    14 the problem has been solved, because we saw the hangar

    15 on the video, we saw the photograph. Can that be

    16 checked?

    17 MR. NICE: While the technical matter is

    18 being addressed, of course, I can take or the Tribunal

    19 can take appropriate steps in relation to the delayed

    20 video. That's not a problem.

    21 As to the incorrect transmission of current

    22 images, it may be that the Chamber would -- would Your

    23 Honour just give me one minute? I'm so sorry.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The registrar

    25 can assure you, Witness G, that your image was not

  12. 1projected into the public gallery. Perhaps we should

    2 have all of the face image distorted. Do you

    3 understand what I've just said? You can be assured

    4 that we're not going to have to take any other special

    5 measures in respect of what was on the monitor, because

    6 the public gallery didn't see it.

    7 Perhaps we could then raise the blinds so

    8 this be a public session, but be sure that we do not

    9 show the witness's face.

    10 After this problem, the witness may wonder

    11 whether he's not being pursued by bad luck.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: There is a problem which is

    13 continuing. We cannot have the camera on Witness G.

    14 There's a problem with his face. We can continue to

    15 question the witness, but the camera will focus only on

    16 the ELMO.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Does everybody

    18 agree, my colleagues agree, agree that we proceed that

    19 way? Very well.

    20 Mr. Nice, after having reassured our witness,

    21 we can now continue the hearing in public session,

    22 since his image is completely distorted.

    23 All right, Mr. Nice, please proceed.

    24 MR. NICE:

    25 Q. Looking at this exhibit and using the

  13. 1pointer, can you show us where it was you first waited

    2 on arrival at the Luka camp?

    3 A. I do not know whether I shall be able to show

    4 you exactly where I stood on that occasion on this

    5 photograph, because I don't see the end of these

    6 hangars. We were standing to the left from the first

    7 hangar.

    8 MR. NICE: May he see Exhibit 10 instead.

    9 Q. Can you point on this photograph to where it

    10 was that you first stood and waited?

    11 A. Yes [indicating].

    12 Q. How many people, approximately, were waiting

    13 there at the time of your arrival?

    14 A. There were seven of us in a group. Across

    15 from us, if I may put it that way, that is, on the

    16 other side of the entrance, there were about 30 people

    17 or so.

    18 Q. While waiting there, did you see the man who

    19 had spoken to you at the barracks, the man in the blue

    20 uniform?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Where was he when you first saw him? What

    23 was he doing?

    24 A. When I saw him first, he was standing by that

    25 room into which detainees were being taken. So when I

  14. 1saw him first, he was entering that room. After that,

    2 he took out a detainee and quietly took him to the

    3 right or, rather, towards the corner of the building,

    4 further away from the door. He was followed by another

    5 individual in a uniform and armed too, and they turned

    6 the corner of the building.

    7 From there, I heard shots, and after that,

    8 that individual in a blue uniform, and subsequently

    9 when he comes close to us, I will see him properly and

    10 learn that his name is Goran. Then he went back into

    11 the room that he had come out.

    12 After that, he took out another witness and

    13 took him --

    14 MR. NICE: Can the witness have Exhibit 16

    15 back on the ELMO, the other photograph. Thank you.

    16 That is a closer view of the same.

    17 Q. Can we see in this photograph, although the

    18 photograph was taken years later, can we see in this

    19 photograph the doorway to which and from which the man

    20 in the blue uniform went?

    21 A. Yes, even though this office seems to be

    22 demolished by now, but this corner that I meant was

    23 here [indicating], it is this part, and the door is up

    24 there [indicating]. There, here, [indicating] the door

    25 leading into those offices.

  15. 1Q. So let us return to your account of the

    2 second person you saw leaving that office with the man

    3 you discovered was called Goran. What did the man

    4 Goran do?

    5 A. He was taking this prisoner in front of him,

    6 and he also took him around the corner, behind the

    7 corner of the building.

    8 Q. After they disappeared around the corner,

    9 what happened? What, if anything, did you hear?

    10 A. Shots were heard from that direction, and

    11 after that, Goran returned alone to the same building

    12 that he had come out.

    13 Q. Did you see a third detainee leave that

    14 office?

    15 A. The third detainee was pushed out of that

    16 office. I believe his face was covered with blood. He

    17 turned to Goran, and he merely indicated to him the

    18 direction in which he should go in front of him, and

    19 they started towards the corner of the building. But

    20 even as the detainee reached that corner, Goran fired

    21 at the back of his head, and I saw the detainee fall.

    22 After that, Goran approached the group that I

    23 was with.

    24 Q. When you say the man fell, did he fall, so

    25 far as you could judge, dead, or was he still alive, or

  16. 1what was the position?

    2 A. He was dead. He was -- he partly fell down

    3 behind that corner, but we could still see his legs on

    4 this side.

    5 Q. The man Goran approached your group. What,

    6 if anything, did he say or do?

    7 A. When he approached our group, he told us to

    8 empty our pockets, all that we had there, our money,

    9 valuables, documents, and we put it all here at the

    10 corner of this hangar. There was an old car, unusable

    11 car, and we put it on the hood of that car. He

    12 collected all of this, and he said that this was all

    13 intended for the families of fallen Serb combatants.

    14 As he took it away, he told us sardonically

    15 that he could guarantee that we would not live to see

    16 the morning there. So he took these things away, and

    17 came back again, and took us into the hangar.

    18 Q. In the hangar, did you see the man Goran

    19 again shortly thereafter or at any time thereafter?

    20 A. I did see him shortly thereafter. He entered

    21 the hangar, was asking for three volunteers. He did

    22 not wait for them to apply. He pointed, "You, you, and

    23 you," and the person sitting next to me stood up and

    24 went out, that is, he took them out. They went out.

    25 After a while, that person came back. I

  17. 1could see that he was all shook up, that he was very

    2 emotional, so I asked him, "What happened?" He told me

    3 that he had to carry -- he said, "I carried a man and

    4 threw him onto a pile, and yet I can feel his heart

    5 beat." He was very shaken by that.

    6 Q. That night, what happened so far as detainees

    7 in the hangar were concerned? Did they all stay there

    8 or did any of them leave? If so, what were the

    9 circumstances of their leaving?

    10 A. During that night, the detainees were taken

    11 out in foursomes. I would be alerted every time they

    12 would come in, open the door and put the lights on, but

    13 then they took three men next to me out and they didn't

    14 come back.

    15 I really had it very hard, and I remember one

    16 case when people were taken out, after which Goran

    17 returned very quickly, because on that particular

    18 occasion one of the detainees said, "In a year, the

    19 machine gun will fire again." Then he was back in no

    20 time at all and said, "Which one of you said that the

    21 machine gun would bark again within a year?" That man

    22 said, "I did," and so he went out too. I know he

    23 returned after about half an hour or so. We did not

    24 expect him to come back alive. But I noted that

    25 somebody sitting next to him asked him, "So how was

  18. 1it?" He turned to him and blew in his face or

    2 something like that, and he seemed to be reeking of

    3 alcohol.

    4 So they were taking people out until late

    5 into the night. I can't really say because I lost my

    6 sense of time.

    7 Q. When you say they took them out in foursomes,

    8 at what interval of time did they go out in foursomes?

    9 If you can put an interval on it.

    10 A. Well, it was about half an hour. Something

    11 like that. I'm not really sure; about half an hour.

    12 Q. Did any, some, or all of the foursomes come

    13 back? What happened?

    14 A. I did not see them come back, but I must also

    15 confess that at that particular time, I wasn't paying

    16 much attention because I was really concerned about my

    17 own fate, and I was trying to tell myself to persuade

    18 myself that I would survive regardless of what was

    19 going on.

    20 Q. Did you see anything else of the man, Goran,

    21 in the hangar that night?

    22 A. I did. It was after midnight. He entered

    23 the hangar and said he would not kill any more if we

    24 knew how to sing a Serb song, "Who Says Who Lies," and

    25 if we could sing it three times without making a

  19. 1mistake. And after that, we all sang, and he was very

    2 happy, and he sort of conducted our singing. And after

    3 that, he called all of those would were outside to

    4 enter and see the balija singing.

    5 Q. The following day, the 9th of May, you

    6 started the day in the hangar?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did you see something of a man called Stipo

    9 Glavocevic?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Tell us very briefly what happened to him,

    12 and if you can, at what time of the day.

    13 A. It was in the morning. Goran brought him to

    14 the hangar, and I know he was quite merry, so he put

    15 him in the middle of the hangar and told us, "Here's

    16 your Stipo walking around the town." And after that,

    17 he put on a serious mien and said, "Well, he has killed

    18 three Serbs; which one of you will kill him?"

    19 And he started offering his gun to each one

    20 of us, but none of the detainees would take it. And as

    21 he reached the end, here, on the right-hand side, I

    22 know that at that moment, Stipo asked us, "Come on,

    23 fellows, why doesn't one of you kill me?" And Goran

    24 heard it, so he came back to our side and started again

    25 offering the gun to us, but none of us would take it.

  20. 1And there was another guard in a uniform, I

    2 believe the reserve uniform, that is, the uniform of

    3 the reserve forces, and he said, "Let me kill him; I

    4 haven't killed an Ustasha since July."

    5 And Goran told Stipo to get out immediately.

    6 And I know there was yet another guard who had a long

    7 sword or a sabre, and he hit Stipo on the back with the

    8 blunt side of that weapon, and they took him out and to

    9 the left, and they went in the other direction. And

    10 then I heard a shot and the passage of the

    11 refrigerating truck. But from the place where I was, I

    12 could not see that murder. However, from other inmates

    13 to the right and left of me, I heard that he had been

    14 killed.

    15 Q. Just two supplementary questions. What

    16 ethnicity was Stipo? Did you know what he did before

    17 this conflict, and what condition was he in when he was

    18 brought in by Goran?

    19 A. Stipo was a Croat by origin. I believe that

    20 his last job was with Bimeks; I do not know if he was

    21 retired. And what condition he was in, well, he

    22 arrived in a suit, but he was all bloody, and there was

    23 a puddle of blood under his feet where he had stood in

    24 the hangar.

    25 Q. A man, a detainee called Jasce, can you tell

  21. 1us about that man?

    2 A. Yes. As regards Jasce, I remember Goran

    3 entered the hangar and said, "Who's the one who cursed

    4 a Serb woman's mother? I'll take him out." And he was

    5 taken out, and I did not see him again. And I really

    6 do not have anything else to say about that.

    7 Q. A woman called Naza Bukvic --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. -- what can you tell us about her? Time of

    10 day, again, if you can help.

    11 Q. As regards Naza Bukvic, the time of the event

    12 is the 9th of May. It was then when I was issued a

    13 pass that I could leave the camp, and so I came out of

    14 this office which I mentioned before to which we went

    15 and where we were interrogated, and, at that moment, I

    16 could not get through because on my way I saw Goran

    17 beat Naza. She was sitting on the grass, and he had

    18 one baton in every hand, in every hand he had a baton,

    19 and I couldn't pass by because he was there, simply, he

    20 was on my way. And he looked towards me, he spread his

    21 arms, and he said, "Her brother is a sniper," and went

    22 on beating her. She was all covered in blood. Her

    23 clothes were torn. And he went on beating her, and I

    24 managed to pass by them.

    25 And then, after that, I stopped for a while,

  22. 1and I was there for another five minutes or so hoping

    2 that through that person who had helped me get out,

    3 perhaps help also my uncle who had stayed behind in a

    4 hangar.

    5 Q. Just point on the photograph, if you can,

    6 with the pointer, whereabouts it was that Goran was

    7 beating the woman.

    8 A. I cannot show it in this photograph because

    9 it was a bit further down. I came out of this room and

    10 started down that way, and so it was further down there

    11 [indicating].

    12 MR. NICE: If he could just briefly have the

    13 other photograph in front of him, please, photograph

    14 number 10, exhibit number 10.

    15 Q. Does that show the place?

    16 A. Here, in the grass [indicating].

    17 Q. And you were --

    18 A. Here, in this area, on the grass, here

    19 [indicating].

    20 Q. Thank you. You've spoken of your

    21 interrogation; I needn't trouble you with that, either

    22 at all or barely at all. Were you interrogated once,

    23 or more than once?

    24 A. Later? I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.

    25 Q. Were you interrogated, yourself, once or more

  23. 1than once?

    2 A. You mean there, in Luka?

    3 Q. Yes, in Luka.

    4 A. Once.

    5 Q. Was it by Goran or by someone else?

    6 A. Someone else.

    7 Q. Thank you. You explained that you managed to

    8 get a pass to get out. In a sentence, who was it who

    9 enabled you to get out of this particular place?

    10 A. I would prefer not to mention the name.

    11 Q. Yes.

    12 A. But he was wearing a uniform of the Serbian

    13 army.

    14 Q. Was he somebody you had known from before?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And as a result of that, paragraph 22, were

    17 you released from Luka; did you move elsewhere for some

    18 couple of months, until July; you thereafter went to

    19 the Batkovic detention centre and were exchanged in

    20 October 1992?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. The man, Goran, you saw him at the barracks

    23 and here at Luka; did you ever see him again?

    24 A. I saw him on another two occasions, but I did

    25 not have any contact with him. The first time was in

  24. 1Batkovic. He was on the other side of the fence; some

    2 prisoners approached the fence. I did not want to do

    3 that. And the next time was when I was exchanged at

    4 Grbavica, because everybody in the bus was pointing at

    5 Goran, because they were afraid of him.

    6 Q. Did you at any stage get to know a name other

    7 than Goran for this man?

    8 A. In the camp, Goran was the only name I heard

    9 of. Later I learned that his last name was Jelisic.

    10 Q. From whom did you learn that, or how did you

    11 learn that?

    12 A. I believe it was from those who were there

    13 with me.

    14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not sure whether

    15 in light of the fact that paragraphs 19, 20, and 21

    16 reflect counts in the indictment that have already been

    17 responded to in a particular way, I'm not sure whether

    18 identity will be an issue, but I propose to ask this

    19 next question of the witness --

    20 Q. And Witness G, please just confine your

    21 answer to this question to just "Yes" or "No"; do you

    22 understand me? I'm going to ask you a question, and I

    23 want you just to say to it "Yes" or "No."

    24 Would you feel able, now, to identify the

    25 person, Goran, if you saw him again? And please, just

  25. 1answer that question "Yes" or "No."

    2 A. Yes.

    3 MR. NICE: And I propose to ask the obvious

    4 question, in the absence of restraint.

    5 Q. Can you see him here today?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Point him out, please.

    8 A. [Witness complies] I am certain that this is

    9 this creature whom I have called Goran Jelisic in my

    10 statement.

    11 MR. NICE: The witness identified the

    12 defendant.

    13 Q. Yes, thank you, Witness G. You will be asked

    14 further questions.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me thank

    16 you, Mr. Nice, for using the summary in a way that I

    17 think is completely consistent, which was the very

    18 purpose of our work, that is, to allow the oral and

    19 written facts to be expressed by the witness.

    20 And now we can have the cross-examination,

    21 but I would simply like to ask Mr. Greaves how much

    22 time he needs.

    23 MR. GREAVES: I was going to ask my learned

    24 friend that he indicated that he was going to ask about

    25 the names on the list, and he may well have forgotten

  26. 1to do that.

    2 MR. NICE: I'm very grateful to Mr. Greaves.

    3 I had omitted to deal with that. And if the witness

    4 could have, please, the two lists. First the -- which

    5 exhibit number is it?

    6 First the longer list, which is -- I can't

    7 remember the number of the exhibit -- 12. It's 12.

    8 Yes, we can always use the same exhibit, Exhibit 12,

    9 please.

    10 Q. You've been asked before to look at this list

    11 of names and to go through them to see if you can

    12 recognise any of the names, either as people you knew

    13 or people of whose fate you were aware, or, indeed, if

    14 there were any people that you had seen since your

    15 being held at Luka.

    16 On page 1, and in the middle of the page, a

    17 little bit over halfway down, there's a name, Cembic.

    18 Was that a name that you knew of?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. What did you know of him?

    21 A. I knew this person from before the war. He

    22 was at my house on the 1st of May, 1992, and then went

    23 with the meat that he had bought, went home, and later

    24 I heard that he had been labelled as a sniper and was

    25 killed.

  27. 1Q. Four names up from the bottom, Glavocevic,

    2 Stipo? Did you know him?

    3 A. Yes, this is the person.

    4 Q. [Previous translation continues]

    5 A. I have already described his fate in my

    6 statement. It is Glavocevic, Stipo.

    7 Q. Hadzic, Suad, second from the bottom.

    8 A. I knew Suad Hadzic. I met him at the

    9 barracks. He had left on an earlier bus, I don't know

    10 where, but I did not see him after that.

    11 Q. Second sheet, two thirds of the way down,

    12 Kartal, Kasim. Did you know that name?

    13 A. I knew him even before the war. I did not

    14 see them during or after the war.

    15 Q. Third sheet, a third of the way down,

    16 Muranjkovic, Galib. Known to you?

    17 A. From before the war; I did not see him during

    18 or after the war. But as far as I know, when I was in

    19 Batkovic, his son was brought there, and that he had

    20 been taken off that vehicle on the way there.

    21 Q. Fourth sheet, two thirds of the way down,

    22 Terzic, T-E-R-Z-I-C, Mohamed?

    23 A. Yes. I knew Mohamed personally. I was

    24 friends with him, and I knew his brothers from sight.

    25 We were together in the mosque, and I saw them in Luka

  28. 1in a group of 30 who were released before the curfew,

    2 and I heard that they were killed at home.

    3 Q. Have you seen any of the people on that list,

    4 to your knowledge, since the events that you have

    5 described?

    6 A. No. You mean the ones we mentioned now?

    7 No.

    8 MR. NICE: The next list, please. Would Your

    9 Honours just give me a minute.

    10 Q. On sheet 1 --

    11 MR. GREAVES: He's turned his microphone off,

    12 and I don't think he'll be heard by the interpreters.

    13 MR. NICE:

    14 Q. On sheet 1, the second name, is that the Papa

    15 that you've already spoken of?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. The same sheet, number 11, Irfan Topalcevic?

    18 A. Topalcevic.

    19 Q. Yes, Topalcevic with an "a". What was know

    20 to you of him?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What happened to him, according to your

    23 understanding?

    24 A. I knew him personally before the war. I did

    25 not see him during or after the war. I heard that he

  29. 1was killed at home at the very beginning.

    2 Q. Number 15 at the bottom of the sheet, Muhamed

    3 Jakubovic, also known as Ulika?

    4 A. Yes, I knew him. I know that he was killed

    5 in the period after I was released from Luka and when I

    6 was held in my neighbourhood. My information is that

    7 he was making equipment for -- harnesses for horses and

    8 that he was killed by one of the guys who worked there.

    9 Q. The next sheet, number 16, Sakib Becirevic?

    10 A. I knew him before the war. I did not see him

    11 during or after the war. I heard that he was killed

    12 behind the gymnasium and that Ranko Cesic was the one

    13 who killed him.

    14 Q. Number 17, Dr. Edhemovic?

    15 A. Yes. I only knew him before the war. I did

    16 not see him during or after.

    17 Q. Did you hear of his fate?

    18 A. I heard that he was killed, only that.

    19 Q. 19, 20, and 21, the brothers Terzic, you've

    20 spoken of one already. What did you hear of these

    21 three?

    22 A. They returned from Luka and went to Kolobara,

    23 where they lived. My information is that Kosta, the

    24 Chetnik, killed them, nothing else.

    25 Q. 23, Sulejmanovic?

  30. 1A. Yes, I knew him before the war. I met him

    2 during the war when I was exchanged. I think it was on

    3 the 4th or 5th of October 1992. While I was in the

    4 bus, he was walking around in town, wearing a suit. I

    5 don't know his subsequent fate.

    6 Q. So you saw him in October 1992, and you don't

    7 know what's happened about him since then.

    8 Number 36 on the next sheet, Osman Vatic?

    9 A. Yes. I did not know him before the war, and

    10 I met him in Batkovic. I know that he was released

    11 home from Batkovic, and I also heard that he was killed

    12 as soon as he returned home.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    14 take a short break. The afternoon is long. I suggest

    15 that we take a 15-minute break and start again at 3.30

    16 or 3.35.

    17 --- Recess taken at 3.18 p.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now

    20 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in, and

    21 please be seated.

    22 [The accused entered court]

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Before we

    24 resume and before I give the floor to Mr. Greaves, my

    25 colleagues and myself would like to speak to your

  31. 1interpreter, Mr. Londrovic and Mr. Greaves. Your

    2 interpreter, yes.

    3 MR. GREAVES: I haven't introduced her, and I

    4 regret the discourtesy of not doing so.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We're

    6 going to ask her to stand, because we would -- please

    7 stand.

    8 We, of course, agree that you be here. I

    9 wanted to know what -- I asked Mrs. de Sampayo what

    10 your status was, and that is all correct. But

    11 nonetheless, I simply wanted not to have you take an

    12 oath, that would take place at another place, but to

    13 call your attention to the confidentiality which must

    14 reign throughout these proceedings. We simply wish to

    15 say this to you in a more official, solemn manner. I

    16 should have done it as soon as we started working

    17 yesterday, but I wanted to take advantage of this time

    18 in order to make you fully mindful of those

    19 responsibilities. All right?

    20 MS. ZIVKOVIC: Yes.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the

    22 interpreter.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I more or less

    24 understood. You may be seated. I understood what you

    25 said, and I thank you very much.

  32. 1All right, Mr. Greaves, the floor is yours.

    2 You are going to conduct the cross-examination?

    3 MR. GREAVES: Yes.

    4 Could I just say about my interpreter, she's

    5 been working for me and for other counsel for over two

    6 years. She worked with us in the Celebici trial. She

    7 has also, for a period, worked on behalf of the Office

    8 of the Prosecutor. She has the confidence of everybody

    9 that I've ever met that she is entirely aware of all

    10 the requirements of confidentiality. I hope that's

    11 also a further assurance to Your Honour. She's further

    12 aware of what is required of her.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That's fine.

    14 You yourself, I assume, are mindful of your

    15 own obligations. Can you tell us how long your

    16 cross-examination is going to last? I'm sure that

    17 you've got a mind which has been synthesised just as

    18 brilliantly as your adversary or your opponent on the

    19 other side of the bench.

    20 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour is too kind. Your

    21 Honour, I hope to be about an hour and a half. Can I

    22 give you the usual caveat that all lawyers, I'm afraid,

    23 give, which is that sometimes things develop, which

    24 means you go on longer, or sometimes my estimations are

    25 totally wrong and one runs over a bit. But I'm aiming

  33. 1at about an hour and a half.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] So that you

    3 understand fully the totality of these proceedings, let

    4 me remind you that the examination in chief, thanks to

    5 the new method which the Prosecutor is using, and even

    6 if you don't completely agree with that method, the

    7 examination in chief lasted for 45 minutes.

    8 I've noted what you have just said, but I ask

    9 that you not repeat yourself. Please do not have the

    10 witness repeat things that he may have already said.

    11 All right. Let's begin, please.

    12 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    13 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    14 Q. Witness G, I'm going to ask you some

    15 questions now, please. Could you remember, please,

    16 this, that whilst I ask you the questions, if there is

    17 a question which you do not understand, please do not

    18 be shy. Stop me, if you do not understand it, and ask

    19 me immediately that I repeat it or rephrase it. Is

    20 that acceptable to you?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Mr. G, I would like to ask you this, please,

    23 to start off with: When you made a statement to the

    24 Office of the Prosecutor, you described yourself as, at

    25 that time, being a soldier in the BiH army. Is that an

  34. 1occupation or an engagement that you continue to have?

    2 Are you still in the BiH army or have you left it?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You've left?

    5 A. No, no, no, I'm with it.

    6 Q. You're still in the BiH army?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Thank you. Can I ask you this? I don't want

    9 to ask the details, for you to identify any particular

    10 unit or regiment, but are you connected in any way with

    11 military intelligence, in your occupation as a BiH

    12 soldier, or the intelligence services in any way?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Thank you. I don't want to know any more

    15 than that.

    16 Mr. G, prior to the outbreak of conflict in

    17 Brcko, were you in any way active in political life in

    18 the town?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. During the conflict, did you take part in

    21 politics? Did you become a party member of any kind?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Have you become a member of, for example, the

    24 SDA since the conflict?

    25 A. No. I am not a member of any political

  35. 1party.

    2 Q. Very well. I suspect that you've been

    3 staying in The Hague for a couple of days, at the very

    4 least, and you've been through the statements which you

    5 made firstly to the BiH authorities, the

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, and to the OTP, and so

    7 you're familiar with those two documents?

    8 A. I am.

    9 Q. Apart from those two statements, Mr. G, have

    10 you made a statement of any kind to any other authority

    11 concerning these matters?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the period

    14 immediately before the commencement of conflict in

    15 Brcko.

    16 I think at the end of April 1992, and I don't

    17 want to ask the details of this, but you were concerned

    18 about your family -- someone in your family's medical

    19 condition, as a result of which you had to go out and

    20 be in the town?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. As a result of that, you found yourself in

    23 the area of, presumably, the central area --

    24 A. I don't understand you.

    25 Q. I'm sorry. As a result of having to go out,

  36. 1you found yourself in the centre of Brcko?

    2 A. I did not leave. It was my family which

    3 left. I'm afraid I didn't understand your previous

    4 question. I was at home throughout, and that is where

    5 I was captured.

    6 Q. I understand that. I'm asking about the last

    7 part of April 1992, before your family left, and in

    8 particular about the 30th of April. Did you go into

    9 the town that day?

    10 A. I did.

    11 Q. It was during that trip that you heard the

    12 explosions or explosions were heard; is that right?

    13 A. No. I heard an explosion, and after the

    14 explosion is when I went into town.

    15 Q. Right. Then were you aware of checkpoints

    16 having been set up in the town?

    17 A. Yes, on the outskirts of the town. I knew

    18 there were checkpoints set up around the town, but at

    19 that moment there were no checkpoints within the town

    20 limits.

    21 Q. The checkpoints on the town periphery, were

    22 those checkpoints only of one group of people, or were

    23 some of them Serbian checkpoints, some of them Muslim

    24 checkpoints; can you help us about that?

    25 A. The checkpoints that I know about were manned

  37. 1by Serbs.

    2 Q. Now, after hearing the explosions and going

    3 into town, you eventually, I think, came towards the

    4 bridge.

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Is this right? There had been a number of

    7 casualties as a result of whatever had happened at the

    8 bridge?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Help us with your recollection, please. Are

    11 we talking about two or three casualties, or tens of

    12 casualties, or hundreds of casualties?

    13 A. I cannot really estimate the number of

    14 casualties. I did not go into town so as to see that.

    15 I went out to find the pacifier for the child, because

    16 it had broken, so that the mother could feed him. Then

    17 I saw a group of men, and I saw those uniformed men who

    18 would not allow anyone to get to the bridge.

    19 What I could see were things scattered all

    20 over. I saw how people were being turned in various

    21 directions to see whether it was an arm or a leg.

    22 Somebody said that it was behind the municipal hall, a

    23 head or something.

    24 Then I went down practically to the mouth of

    25 the Brka River into the Sava. There was also a group

  38. 1which was looking at things scattered around and parts

    2 of bodies on the grass there, and it was quite

    3 crowded. We really had to find an appropriate place to

    4 see what was going on. But I realised what had

    5 happened, and I really didn't feel like counting.

    6 That is all I have to say.

    7 Q. I didn't want you to think that I was

    8 suggesting to you that you should have stayed there to

    9 count. I was just trying to get an idea of how many

    10 people had been involved and either killed or wounded

    11 as a result of this explosion.

    12 Would it be fair to say that it probably

    13 wasn't as many as 100 but it was more than ten or

    14 something like that? Would that be fair? If I'm not

    15 right about that, please say so.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. That's a fair comment?

    18 A. Yes, I believe that that would be, yes, the

    19 correct estimate, yes.

    20 Q. Thank you very much. You've been most

    21 helpful. It was as a result of, no doubt, that that

    22 you got your family away from Brcko. Did you then have

    23 conversations with members of your family?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And I don't want to know about where your

  39. 1family went to or anything like that. Does it come to

    2 this, that you then sought, you and your family -- male

    3 members of your family sought to get information about

    4 what was going on and what you should do?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And were some representatives sent to the

    7 local community office to find out what was going on,

    8 and a particular individual went to check?

    9 A. Yes, they were sent, but I had already

    10 prevailed upon my family to leave home, which means

    11 that I was at home when those representatives were sent

    12 to the neighbourhood community.

    13 Q. Can I just clarify this. By 1992, I think

    14 you were aged 34; is that right? 33 or 34? Born in

    15 1958?

    16 A. I guess so, yes.

    17 Q. Had you, prior to 1992, done your JNA

    18 military service, compulsory service?

    19 A. Yes. Yes.

    20 Q. Was one of the things that you were

    21 interested in at that stage -- and I don't criticise in

    22 any way you for doing this -- but were you interested

    23 in what steps you should take towards helping to

    24 protect your neighbourhood? Was that one of the

    25 reasons why you sent representatives to the local

  40. 1community?

    2 A. I didn't go there, to our neighbourhood

    3 community. It was another person, and we sent him to

    4 go there and see what was going on, because we could

    5 see what was in the offing, and we wanted to see

    6 whether there would be any resistance or whether it

    7 would be just left to take its course.

    8 Q. In light of the information that you were

    9 given, did you and others then organise a number of

    10 patrols, armed patrols?

    11 A. We organised guards in our street, and that

    12 was all. There was nothing else there to be

    13 organised. We avoided any contact with any person we

    14 did not know. We did not communicate with neighbouring

    15 streets either.

    16 Q. Did you observe -- well, sorry, let me just

    17 ask this. Did you have at least one weapon, one

    18 firearm with you? Or was it more?

    19 A. One. We had one hunting rifle.

    20 Q. So that we have an accurate idea of where

    21 this is all taking place, what area of Brcko were you

    22 based in?

    23 A. Next to the hospital.

    24 Q. Did you, during the course of the guard

    25 duties that you undertook, did you come across, see

  41. 1anything of other patrols that had been formed?

    2 A. We noticed to the left and to the right some

    3 groups, but were they patrols or something else, I

    4 don't know. We avoided any contact.

    5 Q. Would those groups, would you have seen those

    6 in the Kolobara and Maoca areas?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Just, again, so that we get the detail.

    9 Kolobara, is that an area which was, at that time, of

    10 mixed ethnicity but with a Muslim majority?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. And by "mixed," I mean Muslim, Serb, and

    13 indeed, Croat.

    14 A. Quite.

    15 Q. Can you help us about Maoca? Can you just

    16 describe the ethnic makeup of that district?

    17 I'm sorry, I've been told on my left that I'm

    18 not pronouncing it correctly, but I hope you understand

    19 the area I'm talking about, Mr. G.

    20 A. Maoca, yes. The structure was more or less

    21 the same as in Kolobara. The Muslims were a majority

    22 there.

    23 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now to May the

    24 1st, and would it be fair to say that's the first day

    25 of any degree of fighting taking place between the two

  42. 1communities?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And the first that you were able to see of it

    4 were soldiers, in a vehicle, wearing a black hat with a

    5 cockade on? Is that right?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. From your experience in the army and so on,

    8 would you be able to say or identify who those troops

    9 were and which side they belonged to?

    10 A. As far as this statement about the troops is

    11 concerned, this was a column which was moving and which

    12 had -- there was this person with a fur hat and a

    13 cockade, and these were the Chetniks.

    14 Q. And in due course, you became aware that

    15 shooting had started; I think the phrase that you have

    16 used is "shooting." Is that small-arms fire, or small

    17 arms and artillery, or what?

    18 A. It started out with small-arms fire on the

    19 other side of town on the 1st of May.

    20 Q. "It started out with ..." Did artillery join

    21 in later on the 1st of May, or was it exclusively small

    22 arms?

    23 A. Later, later, you could hear explosions too.

    24 Q. And are you able to determine whether that

    25 was artillery, in the sense of field guns, or was that

  43. 1mortar fire?

    2 A. I don't know what period. Which date in

    3 May?

    4 Q. May the 1st.

    5 A. On May the 1st, as I said, it started out

    6 with small-arms fire and maybe an occasional

    7 explosion. This is how it started out, and that is

    8 what went on into the night. I cannot say exactly, for

    9 these explosions, when they occurred.

    10 Q. And could you identify the area of Brcko in

    11 which that was taking place?

    12 A. It was in the area of town opposite from the

    13 part of town where I was. It was the Dizdarusa

    14 section.

    15 Q. And then did there follow about two days when

    16 it was relatively quiet? Would that be right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And did you hear, on May the 3rd, from an

    19 acquaintance, something to the effect that the soldiers

    20 were not coming further into the town but that most of

    21 the town except for Kolobara had been taken over?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Again, on the --

    24 A. That they would not cross Brka, over here,

    25 but the centre of town and that area, they were already

  44. 1there.

    2 Q. And again, on May the 3rd, was there some

    3 degree of small-arms fire that you could hear during

    4 the course of the day?

    5 A. On the 3rd of May, the artillery fire

    6 started, and the explosions, immediately followed by

    7 small-arms fire.

    8 Q. Firstly, could you determine from where the

    9 artillery was coming, and could you determine where it

    10 was landing?

    11 A. The shells were flying over my head, and they

    12 were falling in the section of Meraja, Vici, and in the

    13 area of Suljaga Sokak, in those areas.

    14 Q. And the area you've described, is that a

    15 residential area, the area that the shelling was

    16 landing?

    17 A. Yes. Yes, Muslim population, with Muslim

    18 population.

    19 Q. And would you describe the shelling that day

    20 as intense or sporadic? What would be the right

    21 answer?

    22 A. Intense.

    23 Q. I think that as a result of that you decided

    24 that you were going to be safest in your basement,

    25 and --

  45. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. -- did you become aware that small-arms fire

    3 was also taking place, but in two directions, rather

    4 than just the one of the shelling?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And can you help me about this, Mr. G?

    7 Either at the time or subsequently, have you learnt

    8 whether people were killed as a result of the military

    9 activity that was taking place at that time? Or,

    10 indeed, did you witness any bodies lying in the street,

    11 or anything like that, that were obviously victims of

    12 fighting?

    13 A. No. I was in the basement.

    14 Q. Did you hear subsequently of people being

    15 killed, or when you came out, did you see that?

    16 A. No, I did not see it when I came out.

    17 Q. The shelling and shooting, did that stop at

    18 nightfall or did it continue during the hours of

    19 darkness?

    20 A. Throughout the night, there was both shelling

    21 and there was shooting.

    22 Q. I think that the next day, the 4th of May,

    23 you heard some shooting, but it subsequently became

    24 quiet, leading you to believe the fighting might have

    25 been over?

  46. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. And I think -- and I don't want to go into

    3 the detail of it in any way, but there was an incident

    4 with a soldier about to throw a hand grenade, which --

    5 that incident was prevented?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. And from their uniforms you concluded that

    8 they were the Serb volunteer guards; is that right?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And would another name for them be the Arkan

    11 soldiers?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. You weren't able to leave, I think, at that

    14 stage, but were allowed to go back in the basement; is

    15 that right?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Was there any further fighting on the 4th of

    18 May?

    19 A. On the 4th of May, I was at the mosque.

    20 Shooting could be heard.

    21 Q. You were subsequently that day moved to the

    22 mosque. On your way, did you see military forces in

    23 the street or near the hospital yard?

    24 A. I saw soldiers along the entire length of the

    25 street and between the houses.

  47. 1Q. And were they the same ones that you had seen

    2 earlier, the Serb volunteer guards, or were they

    3 regular troops, or what kind of troops were they?

    4 A. Those were the ones who found us in the

    5 basement, the Serb volunteer guard.

    6 Q. Mr. G, I would like to ask you now, please,

    7 about the mosque. When you got there, were there

    8 already people detained there or were you the first

    9 ones?

    10 A. I was not among the first. There were

    11 already people there.

    12 Q. Can you tell us how many people were there?

    13 A. Again, it's a question of my estimate. It

    14 was a little less than half of the entire space in

    15 which we were kept, and now, I don't know how to

    16 estimate that number.

    17 Q. I'm going to ask you to do your best. I

    18 don't want an exact figure, Mr. G; I know it's

    19 difficult. Is it a large mosque, small mosque? What's

    20 the sort of size of the mosque you would -- can you

    21 give us an idea of that?

    22 A. It was a regular mosque. It was this one

    23 larger space, and there was a smaller one, and we were

    24 put in this bigger one.

    25 Q. If I can just explore it a little further.

  48. 1After you arrived, were other people brought in after

    2 you arrived?

    3 A. Yes, other people were brought in after my

    4 arrival.

    5 Q. You've described the -- as best you can at

    6 the moment -- the size, but again, if we can use this

    7 method, are we talking about just 30 or 40 people, or

    8 100-plus people, or 1.000 people?

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think you've

    10 already asked the question. Please move to another

    11 question. I think that you've already asked it, and he

    12 has answered as best he can. Please move along.

    13 MR. GREAVES: I didn't pursue the question

    14 earlier on because I was thinking how best to put it to

    15 him, but I hadn't completed it. Please, can I just try

    16 and help him to help you?

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

    18 Please move to another question. Move to another

    19 question. We've spoken a great deal about the mosque

    20 already. You've asked him to describe whether it's

    21 big, small, average. The witness has answered as best

    22 he can. Please move to another question. Thank you.

    23 MR. GREAVES:

    24 Q. I would like you to help us, please, Mr. G,

    25 about who was in control at the mosque. Were they

  49. 1soldiers, were they police? What sort of people were

    2 in control at the mosque?

    3 A. In the mosque, we were guarded by soldiers of

    4 the Serb volunteer guard. And different, other

    5 military groups could enter the mosque wearing

    6 different types of insignia.

    7 Q. Is this right that, at that stage, women were

    8 separated from you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. As well as women being separated, were any

    11 people who were under 18 taken away, or people who were

    12 obviously elderly and unfit for military service?

    13 A. I know that inside there were also those

    14 younger than 18, and also elderly. It was only later

    15 that they were taken away from the mosque, not right

    16 away.

    17 Q. So to clarify, the women were taken away

    18 first but at a later stage, on a later day, young

    19 people and elderly people were taken away?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. I'd like to ask you now about an incident

    22 which took place on the first night, Mr. G, involving,

    23 I think, a man called Enes Turkusic. Do you recall

    24 that name?

    25 A. Turkusic; yes, I knew him.

  50. 1Q. You knew him, and what, knew him from before

    2 the war?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. And is this right, that he managed to escape

    5 from the building, from the mosque building?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Did you hear anything either immediately

    8 after these events or in subsequent years as to what

    9 had happened to him after his escape?

    10 A. I heard it later. I heard that he was killed

    11 on the 24th or 25th of May, that he had attempted to

    12 swim across the Sava River and was pulled out at

    13 Kolobara.

    14 Q. And was that information given to you from a

    15 source that you trusted and thought was reliable?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Thank you. I want to turn now, please, to

    18 the man who was killed on that occasion. I think you

    19 knew of him as Kike; is that right?

    20 A. Kike.

    21 Q. Did you know that person from before the war?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Did you learn at the time what his full name

    24 was, or have you learnt it subsequently?

    25 A. No.

  51. 1Q. Can I offer a name to you and see whether it

    2 rings any bells: Kike Suljic?

    3 A. Yes, but I did not know that name.

    4 Q. Can I just clarify. You confirm that that

    5 may well have been the name, but you didn't know it at

    6 the time?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. G, that's helpful.

    9 Did you become aware that person's brother

    10 was also being held at the mosque?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Is this right, that at some stage, I think

    13 probably during the first night, somebody called Kosta

    14 came to the mosque?

    15 A. Yes, he came around frequently.

    16 Q. And was he someone that you knew from before

    17 the war, or was this the first time that you had come

    18 across him?

    19 A. I saw him then for the first time.

    20 Q. And can you describe the man that you called

    21 Kosta, can you give a description of him? Age, build,

    22 colour of hair, height, that sort of thing?

    23 A. He had a dark complexion, looked like a

    24 Gypsy, as people say.

    25 Q. Apart from that, can you say how old he was?

  52. 1A. Again, it's a matter of judgement. Perhaps

    2 my age.

    3 Q. Was he bigger than you, smaller than you?

    4 A. He wasn't as tall as I was. He was shorter.

    5 Q. Just for the record, how tall are you, Mr. G?

    6 A. (redacted)

    7 Q. I would like you to look at --

    8 A. I don't know if you want a drawing of me.

    9 Q. No, thank you. You're being very helpful,

    10 and your answers are most concise, if I may say so.

    11 Thank you very much, Mr. G.

    12 I would like you to look at a photocopy of a

    13 photograph, please, the Defence exhibit shown to the

    14 other witness.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 Try to remain as close as you can to the

    21 examination in chief. Let me remind you of that.

    22 MR. GREAVES:

    23 Q. Would you please look at the photograph,

    24 Mr. G? That photograph may well be quite an old

    25 photograph dating from the mid or early 1980s. Is that

  53. 1the man that you knew as Kosta? Can you say? If you

    2 can't, just say so.

    3 A. He's very light-skinned here. I cannot.

    4 Q. All right, thank you.

    5 I would like now to turn, please, to May the

    6 6th, Mr. G. That's the date on which I think you were

    7 transferred to the barracks. Can you say --

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. -- how many people were transferred to the

    10 barracks?

    11 A. I was on a truck that was fully loaded. We

    12 were packed, and we almost couldn't fit.

    13 Q. Was there only one truck in use or was there

    14 other trucks used to transport you that day?

    15 A. I believe it wasn't just one, but I cannot

    16 recall at this very moment.

    17 Q. Mr. G, you have said that at the barracks,

    18 you saw Goran and Kosta?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You say that on the 6th of May, he was

    21 wearing -- the man Goran was wearing a bandage?

    22 A. I did not say that it was on the 6th of May.

    23 It was when he was at the barracks, but I cannot say

    24 what date that was.

    25 Q. How many days were you at the barracks?

  54. 1A. I arrived on the 6th, and I was transferred

    2 to Luka on the 8th, in the afternoon.

    3 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor

    4 was that you were transferred by bus to the army

    5 barracks on the 6th, and you then described how you

    6 were taken to the front room of the building by

    7 soldiers, and that you saw Goran on that occasion and

    8 you [sic] had a bandage on his wrist. Does that

    9 refresh your memory as to the date when you saw him

    10 with a bandage?

    11 A. As far as that statement is concerned, that

    12 we were transferred to the barracks from the mosque, I

    13 don't know about that statement. From what document is

    14 that?

    15 Q. It's the statement which you made to the

    16 Office of the Prosecutor on two dates in February and

    17 March 1995, Mr. G, so not the statement that you made

    18 to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities.

    19 A. I know that I was on a truck. I don't know

    20 about this other thing.

    21 Q. You see, what I suggest is that if, as you

    22 assert, that was Goran Jelisic, Goran Jelisic had not

    23 at that time, the 6th of May, been injured in such a

    24 way that he had to wear a bandage and that you are

    25 either mistaken or being untruthful about him being at

  55. 1the barracks that day.

    2 A. On which day, on which day?

    3 Q. The 6th of May, Mr. G.

    4 A. I did not say that Goran Jelisic was at the

    5 barracks on the 6th of May. I am not aware of that

    6 statement.

    7 Q. So when you described, in your OTP statement,

    8 seeing somebody called Goran with a bandage, that was

    9 someone different from the person you identified in

    10 court today, was it?

    11 A. No, that was the same person.

    12 Q. What I suggest to you is that you simply

    13 didn't see Goran Jelisic on the 6th of May because he

    14 wasn't, at that stage, injured, didn't have a bandage,

    15 so that you may deal with that.

    16 A. I did not see him on the 6th of May.

    17 Q. I want to ask you now, please, this.

    18 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me

    19 a moment, please.

    20 Q. Yes. I would like to ask you now, please,

    21 about some prisoners who were with you at the

    22 barracks. Would this be right? You recognised some of

    23 them; Adnan Mustic, Salim Karamehic?

    24 A. Yes. I was with them.

    25 Q. Mirasi? I think I pronounced that badly.

  56. 1Does that ring a bell?

    2 A. Yes, yes.

    3 Q. Someone you've described as Nermin Suljic, is

    4 it possible that that was, in fact, Nermin Suljagic?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. As far as the alleged conversation by the

    7 person you've identified as Jelisic about people coming

    8 to you later and giving percentages who would be killed

    9 and beaten up, I suggest to you that that was never

    10 said by Goran Jelisic.

    11 A. Oh, yes, I claim that he did say that.

    12 Q. Can you explain, please, why, when you made a

    13 statement to the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you

    14 made no mention whatever of that conversation?

    15 A. As regards my statement to the authorities of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is a case unto itself, because

    17 I was almost interrogated when I was giving that

    18 statement. Here they read the statement, then they

    19 typed it, and what you notice there, you mentioned some

    20 names, the names of people that I did not know, and at

    21 the time that I gave my statement to the

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, it was immediately in

    23 the wake of my exchange and every visit to -- that was

    24 the time when planes were shelling, when shells were

    25 falling, when there was bombing, when any -- so those

  57. 1were the conditions under which I gave that statement,

    2 under which it was worded, and I simply didn't want to

    3 go there again because it was so difficult, and I

    4 accepted what they showed me that day.

    5 Q. I understand fully that your circumstances

    6 were most difficult. Let me just ask you this: Was

    7 that October 1992 when you gave your statement to the

    8 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you sign the statement at the end?

    11 A. I did. It was said that it was merely for

    12 internal use, and I did not see any fundamental thing.

    13 All they wanted to know was what had been going on,

    14 what was happening, so some names, I said that they

    15 were typed later, and the statement was put before me.

    16 I explained why I didn't want to go there again. I

    17 simply wanted to have it over and done with as soon as

    18 possible.

    19 Q. I shall be corrected if I'm wrong, but at the

    20 conclusion of your statement is this:

    21 "At the end, I wish to state I give this

    22 statement based on what I personally saw and partly

    23 upon what I was told by others in the camp, and I sign

    24 it as my own statement. Everything I have included

    25 here I am prepared to verify before the court or some

  58. 1international commission which may be interested."

    2 Do you recall that?

    3 A. No, not really. No, I don't recall it. I'm

    4 telling you the state I was in, and in a kind of my

    5 self-examination, and I simply was trying to get away

    6 from there as quickly as possible.

    7 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't want to

    8 take any greater length of time, but I want to confirm

    9 that that's what he signed, and I wonder whether the

    10 original of his Bosnia-Herzegovina statement could be

    11 given to him so that he could just identify his

    12 signature, please. I don't want to be unfair to him.

    13 If we've got the wrong document, then that would be

    14 unfair, of course.

    15 A. No, there is no need. I already said, as

    16 regards that statement, I do not see really any

    17 fundamental thing except what they added into it

    18 subsequently, but I do not think it really affects much

    19 things that happened.

    20 MR. GREAVES:

    21 Q. Mr. G, do you accept that during the course

    22 of that statement, you named a number of people that

    23 you recognised at the barracks; Rajko Rajcic, Djordje

    24 Ristanic, Mladen Tesic or Teslic, Branislav

    25 Stanisavljevic, Ratko Orlic, Zeljko Muminovic, and

  59. 1Zoran Vasilisin?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. At no stage during that statement to the

    4 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities did you say, "I had seen

    5 Goran at the barracks." Do you accept that?

    6 A. I wouldn't know that I hadn't told them that,

    7 really. I telling you that they practically were

    8 interrogating me, and I wanted to get rid of them as

    9 quickly as possible.

    10 Q. I want to turn now, please, to your transfer

    11 to Luka. At what time of day did your transfer take

    12 place?

    13 A. Sometime in the afternoon.

    14 Q. Middle of the afternoon, late afternoon?

    15 A. After noon. I cannot be more accurate than

    16 that.

    17 Q. When you arrived, were there people already

    18 there?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Were they already inside the hangar, or were

    21 they outside, or where were they?

    22 A. Both in and outside the hangar.

    23 Q. Again, are you able to help us as to how many

    24 people were already there before your arrival? Sorry,

    25 upon your arrival.

  60. 1A. Well, it's again a matter of opinion, really,

    2 and I should say there were not less than 80 and not

    3 more than 120.

    4 Q. Thank you. First of all, were they people

    5 who had been formerly at either the barracks or the

    6 mosque; did you recognise any of them from there?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. When you first got there, is this right, that

    9 you were told first to wait at the first hangar?

    10 A. When we arrived there, those troops who had

    11 brought us told us to wait there.

    12 Q. Would this be right, as you told the OTP,

    13 that there were some 30 to 40 standing outside the

    14 hangar, and those people had already received their

    15 passes?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. By "pass", Mr. G, I mean a pass enabling them

    18 to be released from the camp.

    19 A. I don't know. I don't know what pass that

    20 was. But whatever the case, they were standing there,

    21 waiting to be released.

    22 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour will forgive me. I

    23 forgot to deal with one matter concerning something

    24 which happened at the mosque, and I'll return to that

    25 now, if I may.

  61. 1Q. Mr. G, forgive me if we just go back a little

    2 bit. I forgot to put one matter to you.

    3 The man called Papa, Ahmed Hodzic or Hadzic,

    4 is this right, that firstly he was a local community

    5 leader and a member of the SDA?

    6 A. He used to say that he was a member of the

    7 SDA and president of a neighbourhood community, I

    8 believe.

    9 Q. Did you personally witness him being beaten?

    10 A. While they were beating them there in the

    11 hallway of the mosque, at that time, yes, I was there.

    12 Q. Was it being made clear that the reason he

    13 was being beaten was because of his connections with

    14 the SDA and his place in the community?

    15 A. Yes, I thought that that was the reason.

    16 Q. Thank you. I'll return now back to the front

    17 of the hangar, if I may, and I'm grateful for enabling

    18 me to go back.

    19 Were you initially kept at the front of the

    20 hangar?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. You were able to see people being taken to

    23 the office?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Is this right, that some of those were

  62. 1returning to your group with passes?

    2 A. Not my group; the group across, across from

    3 our group.

    4 Q. So that the initial group that you saw

    5 standing outside the hangar was being increased by

    6 people coming out of the hangar, going to the offices,

    7 being interrogated; do you know?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Coming out of the offices and joining that

    10 first group?

    11 A. While I was there, two or three joined that

    12 group.

    13 Q. That group that already had passes, was it

    14 subsequently released that day or that night?

    15 A. Towards the evening, towards late afternoon,

    16 they were released, yes.

    17 Q. How long did you remain outside the hangar?

    18 A. You mean in terms of time? I am afraid I did

    19 not have any sense of time. I said we were taken in by

    20 Goran Jelisic. It was a short time before the

    21 nightfall.

    22 Q. Were you able to discover anything about the

    23 interrogations that were taking place?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. I want to ask you now about the killings

  63. 1which you say that you observed.

    2 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would just give

    3 me a moment, please.

    4 Q. What you told us today and what you told the

    5 Office of the Prosecutor was that the first person you

    6 saw with Goran was taken around the corner of a

    7 building and out of your sight. May we take it from

    8 that that you did not, in fact, see anybody being

    9 killed?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And the extent of the information that you

    12 can give Their Honours is that the person you saw, the

    13 person you described as Goran, did not reappear?

    14 A. What do you mean? I don't understand.

    15 Q. The most that you can tell us is that one of

    16 the persons who went around the corner, the detainee,

    17 did not reappear?

    18 A. Goran reappeared.

    19 Q. Yes, but not the detainee? I'm interested

    20 in --

    21 A. No. He did not.

    22 Q. And you're quite sure that you saw absolutely

    23 nothing of the killing, or a killing, at that stage?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. So that you may deal with it, Mr. G, please,

  64. 1can you explain why, in your statement to the

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, you claimed to have

    3 seen a killing at that stage then, in relation to the

    4 first person that you saw?

    5 A. It seems I have to say that, again, that was

    6 not the way I put it to the authorities of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was how it was put to me. And

    8 I did not want to come for the second or for the third

    9 time, because the second or the third person, that was

    10 the same kind of thing, said here and there.

    11 Do you know when it was that I gave my

    12 statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities? They

    13 were writing it with a pencil, and on the basis of all

    14 the statements of all the people they interrogated at

    15 the time, they then made probably one statement. And I

    16 would have had to go back there and to be exposed again

    17 to all that I had been already exposed to.

    18 As to the substance, there is no difference,

    19 there is no discrepancy. I did not see the first one,

    20 but I saw the second one being killed. And I just

    21 really didn't want to go into it; I didn't want to

    22 discuss it with them. And besides, they also told me

    23 that it was only for their internal use. I didn't feel

    24 like going back there.

    25 Q. Mr. G, I want to make sure exactly the

  65. 1circumstances in which you gave this account. You said

    2 to their Honours just now -- and I'm reading from your

    3 evidence -- "That was not the way I put it to the

    4 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was how it was

    5 put to me." Are you saying that you were told what to

    6 put in that statement?

    7 A. Yes, yes, I said the same thing as I said

    8 afterwards, that is the sequence and all of that.

    9 Q. So where your statement to the

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities differs from that which

    11 you made to the Office of the Prosecutor, that may be

    12 explained by you being persuaded to put in things which

    13 were not true?

    14 A. As regards the substance, I'm telling you,

    15 the first or the third, there is no difference in

    16 substance. I'm saying that I said what I had told

    17 them, and I said the same here, except that when they

    18 were putting it together, when they were writing it

    19 out, typing it out, then the third person appeared to

    20 be the first. That is, the third person that I talked

    21 about to them, they put it in the first place, and the

    22 other way. But basically what I said was that I saw

    23 with my own eyes one murder, and I don't see what else

    24 I have to say about that.

    25 Q. I think we'll move on.

  66. 1As far as any conversation about handing over

    2 of valuables and so on, I suggest to you that that is

    3 not correct, that did not happen.

    4 A. Well, I say that it did happen.

    5 Q. Can you help us with this. The group that

    6 were in fact released, can you say at what time it was

    7 they were released? Was it close to curfew time?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And so that we may know what time that was,

    10 at what time was the curfew on that occasion?

    11 A. I don't know. Because one of those troops

    12 said, "Well, if you are releasing them, let us release

    13 them before the curfew." And I know when they were

    14 released, they all started running towards the exit.

    15 Q. You were able to see them leaving. Was Goran

    16 still there when they left and able to see them

    17 leaving?

    18 A. I suppose he could. I was in the hangar,

    19 right across the door. I saw them leave. Of course, I

    20 could not follow them all the time, but insofar as the

    21 door was open, I could see them leave.

    22 Q. As far as the account which you give of Goran

    23 coming in and getting you all to sing songs and

    24 conducting that exercise, again, I suggest that that

    25 did not happen.

  67. 1A. I say that it did happen.

    2 Q. Although it is right to say that you told the

    3 BiH authorities about being forced to sing songs, you

    4 said nothing to them about Goran directing and

    5 conducting the exercise, and in your statement to the

    6 Prosecutor, you made no mention at all of that

    7 incident; can you explain that?

    8 A. I did not say that it was somebody else

    9 either. It simply depends, and one doesn't really

    10 remember every little thing at any given moment.

    11 Q. During the course of the night, when you'd

    12 been put into the hangar, are you saying that people

    13 were taken out as foursomes throughout the night at

    14 regular intervals?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Once every 15 minutes, once every 30

    17 minutes? What are we talking about?

    18 A. Well, it's again a matter of opinion. It

    19 wasn't all that quickly; not every 15 minutes. Some

    20 intervals were shorter and longer, but I cannot be more

    21 accurate.

    22 Q. Again, what you told the BiH authorities was

    23 that three prisoners were taken out, and you made no

    24 mention of anything more than that. And --

    25 A. Three detainees. At the time when the light

  68. 1fell on me, they also lit up those three prisoners.

    2 But I do not know -- as for that statement, I don't

    3 think I could have omitted to mention that.

    4 Q. Again, in your statement to the Office of the

    5 Prosecutor, you mention a total of seven people being

    6 taken out.

    7 A. I said after that first time, when the light

    8 was thrown on me, that I know that people were being

    9 taken out, but I couldn't know how many. To begin

    10 with, it was a long time ago. Secondly, I was really

    11 trying to use that time to come to terms somehow with

    12 my fate, trying to find some encouragement within me.

    13 I was focusing on my own fate. And when somebody said

    14 -- and when Goran came back, I was trying to remember

    15 those things then.

    16 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I misled the Court,

    17 in fact. The figure -- it's because I can't read my

    18 own writing. It should have been ten, not seven, and I

    19 apologise to Your Honour and the witness.

    20 Q. It was ten, in all, that you mentioned, but

    21 in groups of three, three, and four, Mr. G.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that we

    23 might take a break now.

    24 A. I don't know where I could have made that

    25 statement.

  69. 1MR. GREAVES: How long is the break for, so

    2 that we can go and see my client?

    3 All right. I'm sorry. I missed what Your

    4 Honour said. I do apologise.

    5 --- Recess taken at 5.00 p.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now

    8 resume the hearing. Please have the accused brought

    9 in, and be seated.

    10 Mr. Greaves?

    11 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    12 Honour.

    13 Q. Mr. G, can I just clarify something with you,

    14 please. And just to retrace my steps slightly, the

    15 issuing of passes on the night of May the 8th, that's

    16 the day on which you were transferred to Luka. Is it

    17 your evidence that the issuing of passes was taking

    18 place in the administration offices or somewhere else?

    19 A. From where the prisoners were taken to and

    20 then taken from.

    21 Q. Was there a table inside the hangar where

    22 passes were being issued, passes for release?

    23 A. In the hangar.

    24 Q. Inside the hangar?

    25 A. As I said, I don't know. With respect to the

  70. 1issuance of these passes, when I arrived there, people

    2 were standing in front of me inside the hangar, so I

    3 don't know.

    4 Q. Were you able to see by whom the passes were

    5 being issued? Was it by an ordinary soldier, or a

    6 civilian, or somebody that you could identify, or --

    7 help us with that.

    8 A. No. No.

    9 Q. I want to ask you just one detail, please,

    10 about the man Stipo Glavocevic. You knew him before

    11 the war?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. He was working as a police officer; is that

    14 right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. He was of Croatian origin?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. I want to clarify one thing that was said or

    19 that you may have said in relation to the person Jasce

    20 or Jasce.

    21 You told us about Goran coming in and asking

    22 a question. Can you just repeat the question again,

    23 because it's possible that your full answer may not

    24 have come out on the transcript. Can you tell us what

    25 exactly was said?

  71. 1A. Yes, I can. He said, "Let the person get up

    2 who cursed the Serbian waitress. I know who it is."

    3 Q. That's all you say that was said?

    4 A. Something like that, so that this person

    5 should get up himself.

    6 Q. I want next to ask you about the man who

    7 enabled you to be released. I don't want you to say

    8 his name in public, but would you be prepared, please,

    9 to write it down for the use of the Court?

    10 A. I don't know why the name is significant.

    11 Q. Well, with respect, there may be information

    12 that we have concerning him that would enable us to,

    13 but I don't want to mention the name in public.

    14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I would respectfully

    15 invite my learned friend to show relevance before he

    16 compels the revelation of a name, the sensitivity of

    17 which is perhaps fairly obvious, for the person named

    18 assisted this man to safety and it may be there are

    19 concerns about this man's safety in the mind of the

    20 witness.

    21 Absent relevance, there's no need for us to

    22 reveal that name at all. Once it is revealed to the

    23 Defence lawyers, it's inevitably available to everyone

    24 within the Defence.

    25 MR. GREAVES: It is already within our

  72. 1possession, for obvious reason.

    2 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Move to another

    4 question, Mr. Greaves.

    5 MR. GREAVES: I was going to say, Your

    6 Honour, that I didn't press the matter.

    7 Q. In any event, that person arranged for you to

    8 get a pass. Is this also right, that -- and I don't

    9 want to know what the relationship was, but a relation

    10 of yours was also enabled to get a pass?

    11 A. When I got the pass, I stayed behind in order

    12 to attempt to perhaps work with this person in order

    13 for my relative to be issued another pass, but

    14 eventually he was not issued the pass.

    15 Q. How many people were released at the same

    16 time as you were?

    17 A. In the line in front of this room, we were --

    18 Your Honours, this is all a matter of judgement. We

    19 were about 10 to 15.

    20 Sometimes when I state things like this, this

    21 is something that I say to the best of my

    22 recollection. They ask me to say exactly, but I say

    23 what I know best. So maybe later on, somebody again

    24 will ask me to say the exact number, and I may not even

    25 remember what I had said on a previous occasion when I

  73. 1was asked to give my best estimate.

    2 Q. Mr. G, the answer that you've given is, "We

    3 were about 10 to 15." It would have been simpler, with

    4 respect to you, to have said, "We were about 10 to 15,"

    5 if that's your answer. Thank you.

    6 I want to ask you now, please, about the

    7 beating of Naza Bukvic. Is this right, that your

    8 evidence is that Goran said, in relation to her, that

    9 her brother was the main sniper in the town?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. So that the purpose and motive behind the

    12 beating was because her brother was a sniper?

    13 A. Perhaps he made it a motive.

    14 Q. I want to ask you next, please, about you

    15 having seen Goran Jelisic again after your release from

    16 Luka.

    17 A. You mean Batkovic?

    18 Q. No. Let me ask the question slightly more

    19 clearly. You left Luka, having been released on a

    20 pass. Subsequently, your evidence is that you saw

    21 Goran Jelisic on two further occasions, once at

    22 Batkovic camp and once when you were in a bus and

    23 persons pointed him out to you; is that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Would you accept this, Mr. G, that in

  74. 1relation to your statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    2 authorities, you did not mention at all seeing Goran

    3 Jelisic again, and in your statement to the Office of

    4 the Prosecutor, you only claimed to have seen him on

    5 one occasion at Batkovic camp?

    6 A. These statements, and let me repeat it, were

    7 given in different circumstances. When I was giving a

    8 statement for the Bosnia and Herzegovina authorities, I

    9 was answering questions, and whatever I was asked,

    10 these were the answers that I had given them. It is

    11 entirely possible that I had completely forgotten about

    12 it.

    13 Q. As far as learning what his name was, that is

    14 as a result of you being told by others what they

    15 believed to be his name; is that correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the list of

    18 names. You will recall that with Mr. Nice, you went

    19 through a number of names, and I just want to ask a

    20 little bit more detail about that.

    21 The man Midhat Cembic, is this right: Was

    22 he --

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me remind

    24 you that you have about six or seven minutes left. Try

    25 to organise yourself accordingly, please.

  75. 1MR. GREAVES: I'm hoping to be done, but I

    2 need to just go through these.

    3 Q. Midhat Cembic, Mr. G, is this right, that he

    4 was a member of the SDA?

    5 A. I don't know.

    6 Q. You heard that he had been labelled a sniper

    7 and that was the motive behind his killing. Did you

    8 hear any other details of that?

    9 A. Regarding Midhat Cembic, when I was at the

    10 barracks, I know that a soldier walked in and asked us

    11 did anybody know Midhat Cembic. I did not respond at

    12 that time. Then he said, "Who would have thought that

    13 he was a sniper?" This is how I knew that he had been

    14 sort of pointed out as a sniper.

    15 Q. This was as a result of something that

    16 somebody else said to you. Can you say when it was?

    17 Was any other information about when he had been killed

    18 given to you?

    19 A. No. (redacted)

    20 (redacted). Nothing else.

    21 Q. I'd like to turn, please, to the name Kasim

    22 Kartal. Is he one of two brothers who I think were at

    23 one stage involved heavily in football; is that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Was either Kasim or his brother, to your

  76. 1knowledge, a member of the SDA?

    2 A. I don't know. I don't know.

    3 Q. Galib Muranjkovic, you knew something about

    4 his being killed, is that right, Galib Muranjkovic?

    5 A. No. I said that I did not meet him either

    6 during or after the war, but when I was at Batkovic,

    7 his son had been brought there and he said -- he

    8 related that his father was taken off a vehicle on the

    9 way.

    10 Q. Can you tell us the name of his father, the

    11 first name of his father?

    12 A. Galib Muranjkovic.

    13 Q. And the name of the son?

    14 A. Son's name? Right now, I cannot recall it,

    15 but I know him and I would remember it at some point.

    16 Q. Irfan Topalcevic, is this right, that you

    17 heard that he was killed at home? Did he live in the

    18 Kolobara district?

    19 A. He did.

    20 Q. Was he an SDA member, to your knowledge?

    21 A. I don't know. I don't know.

    22 Q. Do you know when it was that you heard he had

    23 been killed? Was it right at the beginning of the

    24 conflict or at some later stage?

    25 A. Later.

  77. 1Q. Later. Can you say how much later?

    2 A. I learned about that later. When I came out

    3 from Luka, it was then that I heard that Irfan had been

    4 killed, and I heard it from his acquaintances who were

    5 in the same building where I was put up.

    6 Q. Mehmed Jakubovic, did he have a father called

    7 Muharem?

    8 A. I don't know anything about Mehmed Jakubovic.

    9 Q. So you don't know what his fate was?

    10 A. No, I don't.

    11 Q. Then -- and I'm coming fairly rapidly towards

    12 the end -- Sakib Becirevic; you heard that he was --

    13 A. Kibe.

    14 Q. Kibe? I'm sorry? What did you say, Mr. G?

    15 A. Kibe.

    16 Q. You heard that he was killed behind the

    17 gymnasium; is that right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And that was by somebody called Cesic?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Do you know if he was a member of the SDA?

    22 A. No, I don't.

    23 Q. And can you say when the killing took place?

    24 Do you know any of that?

    25 A. No, I don't.

  78. 1Q. Dr. Edhemovic, again, do you know any of

    2 the -- the date when he was killed? Would that be

    3 1993? Do you know anything about that?

    4 A. No, I don't know.

    5 Q. The Terzic brothers: We've got details of

    6 three of them, but were there in fact four brothers?

    7 Can you help us about that?

    8 A. They could have been Terzics.

    9 Q. Somebody called Mido Terzic?

    10 A. No. That wasn't him.

    11 Q. I'd like, then, to ask you this: You've

    12 identified someone as Kosta, the Chetnik, as having

    13 been, according to your information, the killer of at

    14 least one if not all of the brothers. Is Kosta the

    15 Chetnik, is that Kosta Kostic?

    16 A. I cannot confirm that.

    17 Q. As far as -- is it your information that they

    18 were killed in the Kolobara district?

    19 A. According to what I heard, yes.

    20 Q. And Vasif Suljemanovic, you saw him late in

    21 1992, sometime around October?

    22 A. On the 4th or the 5th of October.

    23 Q. Have you been given information that

    24 subsequently he was killed?

    25 A. No.

  79. 1Q. And finally, Osman Vatic: He was detained at

    2 Batkovic; is that right?

    3 A. It is, if that is the Osman Vatic without a

    4 leg.

    5 Q. Yes. Well, the Osman Vatic without a leg,

    6 your information or your knowledge is that he was

    7 released; is that right?

    8 A. Yes, it is.

    9 Q. Do you know the date upon which he was

    10 released, whether exactly or approximately?

    11 A. I don't. I don't. He spent quite some time

    12 in the camp.

    13 Q. Do you think it was 1992, or 1993?

    14 A. 1992.

    15 Q. And your information, again, was that he was

    16 killed at his home subsequent to his release?

    17 A. Yes, that is what I heard from other people.

    18 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me

    19 a moment, please.

    20 Q. At the very end of 1992, or earlier than

    21 that?

    22 A. Now, again, it's a matter of thinking, of

    23 estimating. I came out on the 4th of October, and he

    24 was released before that.

    25 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. G. I

  80. 1have no further questions for you.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    3 Mr. Greaves. Thank you for having respected the amount

    4 of time that was given to you.

    5 Mr. Nice?

    6 MR. NICE: I have one topic to deal with in

    7 re-examination.

    8 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

    9 Q. Witness G, you have been asked questions

    10 about your evidence to the effect that the man, Goran

    11 Jelisic, at the barracks, spoke to you and others about

    12 what was going to happen to you, generally, and it was

    13 suggested that you had said in your statement to the

    14 Office of the Prosecutor that this happened on the 6th

    15 of May, and you denied that you'd said that in the

    16 statement, specifically.

    17 MR. NICE: May the witness have the B/C/S

    18 version of the English statement which was taken, I

    19 think, in English. I've sidelined each version with

    20 the passage that I'd like him to look at. It's not an

    21 exhibit yet, and unless the Chamber wants these

    22 statements to be exhibited, they needn't be.

    23 If the English version could go on the ELMO,

    24 and if the witness could follow in the B/C/S version as

    25 I read from the English version.

  81. 1Q. Witness G, in your statement there is this

    2 passage: "During the afternoon of May the 6th, all the

    3 detainees in the mosque were transferred by bus to the

    4 army barracks. At the barracks, they put us in a big

    5 room near the kitchen. I saw Goran Jelisic and Kosta

    6 at the barracks.

    7 "Soldiers took all of us from the room to

    8 the front of the building. I was about 20 or 30 metres

    9 from him. Goran had a characteristic voice, was

    10 good-looking, had a bandage on his wrist, and he wore

    11 the light blue civilian police uniform. He was

    12 slightly taller than average height and had black

    13 hair. Goran said to us, 'All of you are going to come

    14 to me later.' He also said, '70 per cent of you should

    15 be killed, 30 per cent should be beaten up, and

    16 4 per cent of the 30 per cent were probably good.' He

    17 cursed us and called us balijas. At that time I did

    18 not know Goran's identity; however, I later saw him at

    19 Luka. Goran left, and we went back into the room.

    20 This occurred around noon. I spent two days at the

    21 army barracks before I was transferred to Luka camp."

    22 And then it goes on to deal with Luka camp.

    23 Two things: Did Goran Jelisic say to you the

    24 things that you've set out in this statement? "Yes" or

    25 "No"?

  82. 1A. Yes.

    2 Q. Of the two days that you were at the

    3 barracks, can you say on which day this happened?

    4 A. The first day -- it certainly didn't happen

    5 on the first day, because we were brought there in the

    6 afternoon, and this happened sometime in the morning,

    7 that is, before noon. It was daylight. So it could

    8 have been either the 7th or the 8th of May.

    9 Q. Thank you very much.

    10 A. And here, when I was telling you it was the

    11 6th of May, no, I was simply speaking about the events

    12 that happened, and I told you that we were brought

    13 there on the 6th, and then I was recalling all sorts of

    14 other things, but I did not say that it all happened on

    15 the 6th of May.

    16 MR. NICE: I have no other re-examination of

    17 this witness. Nothing else from me, Your Honour.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let

    19 me turn to my colleagues. No questions? No

    20 questions?

    21 One point, but let me ask the Prosecutor, not

    22 the witness: Mr. Nice, it seems that there is an

    23 inconsistency between the statement made to the

    24 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the statements

    25 that were taken by your office. If you don't want to

  83. 1answer, don't. Here's my question: When you

    2 interviewed Witness G, did you call his attention to

    3 those inconsistencies, or did you use the same reasons

    4 that had been used? Do you understand what I mean?

    5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't think

    6 counsel can answer, because he wasn't -- according to

    7 the information -- present at the time when that

    8 interview took place, and I would be loath to get

    9 counsel to give evidence in the case, which wouldn't be

    10 a proper thing to do.

    11 MR. NICE: I'm grateful for the protection of

    12 my learned friend, but as to the statement, it's

    13 quite --

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    15 you have a very subtle way of reminding me of things,

    16 but I think that the Judges can ask certain questions,

    17 and I would like to know something about that point.

    18 And before you spoke, Mr. Greaves, you noted that I was

    19 very careful to say to the Prosecutor that if he didn't

    20 wish to answer, he didn't have to. Therefore, I didn't

    21 really need your advice. It was simply a question

    22 asked for clarification for the Tribunal. I could have

    23 asked the witness the question, but I thought it was

    24 much easier to ask the Prosecutor. But I keep my

    25 question that I asked Mr. Nice, and that he doesn't

  84. 1have to answer if he doesn't want to.

    2 MR. NICE: I'm quite happy to answer. In all

    3 matters, I feel that maximum --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I thought so.

    5 I thought so.

    6 MR. NICE: As to the interview, of course,

    7 that is the statement that we've just been looking at.

    8 That was a statement taken well before I ever knew that

    9 I was ever likely to be at the Tribunal. It was taken

    10 by others. If Your Honour had in mind what's called,

    11 in accordance with the practices of this institution,

    12 the proofing session, I regret that I can't help you

    13 there completely, because I have fortune, good or bad,

    14 of having quite a lot of things to do, and the first --

    15 the stage of proofing of the witness, I'm happy -- I'm

    16 fortunate enough to have someone else do that for me in

    17 the first stage, and I only spoke to the witness

    18 personally, myself, at the latter stage.

    19 I can find out for you, from the person who

    20 did the proofing of the first stage, whether the

    21 inconsistencies were drawn to the witness's attention,

    22 but I can certainly tell you that at the time I spoke

    23 to him myself -- which was shortly before he gave

    24 evidence; I think the day before -- I didn't draw those

    25 inconsistencies to his attention myself, because by

  85. 1that stage, matters were substantially already prepared

    2 and summarised. But I can certainly find out.

    3 I think, if it helps you, our approach

    4 would -- well, yes, our approach would probably be to

    5 deal with obvious inconsistencies where they seem

    6 significant, because that would be a sensible approach

    7 with the witness, and to get them resolved. But of

    8 course we may not spot every inconsistency, or we may

    9 not regard them always as significant. And, of course,

    10 the overriding concern is to know from a witness what

    11 his present recollection and account is, and unless

    12 there is any reason to trouble him or her with earlier

    13 inconsistencies for clarification, that may not always

    14 be gone into.

    15 But I can find out more about this witness.

    16 I can deal with the matter generally, if that would

    17 help you. And as to this witness, as with any witness

    18 -- we haven't exhibited the two statements, but -- and

    19 he's given an account of why the Bosnian statement is

    20 as it is. But I'm in the Court's hands. If the Court

    21 wants them to be exhibited, of course, they can be.

    22 [Trial Chamber confers]

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I, myself,

    24 don't intend to go any further, even though I might say

    25 to Mr. Greaves that I'm allowed to by the Rules. But I

  86. 1have no further comments to make. I think the best

    2 thing to do, and I think everybody is agreed, starting

    3 with the interpreters, who must be tired after this

    4 long afternoon, I think that we should now adjourn

    5 today's session and resume tomorrow morning at 10.00.

    6 Would you like to add something,

    7 Mr. Greaves?

    8 MR. GREAVES: I would, please, if you

    9 wouldn't mind. We would invite you, at the very least,

    10 to have as an exhibit the statement made by this man to

    11 the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities about which he has

    12 explained so much.

    13 MR. NICE: In which case, probably better for

    14 both to be exhibited, I would have thought, both the

    15 Bosnian one and the one to the Office of the

    16 Prosecutor.

    17 MR. GREAVES: I have no objection to that.

    18 [Trial Chamber confers]

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mindful of the

    20 needs to maintain the rights of the accused, all of the

    21 statements should be tendered as evidence, and we'll

    22 ask the Registry to give them numbers.

    23 We will now adjourn and resume tomorrow at

    24 10.00.

    25 MR. NICE: May I detain the Court -- I think

  87. 1it will be convenient -- is it possible to go into

    2 what's called, I think, private session for 30

    3 seconds? It's an administrative matter that I've been

    4 asked to deal with.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    6 [Private session]

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  88. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    13 6.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

    14 the 2nd day of September, 1999, at

    15 10.00 a.m.