1. 1 Monday, 6th September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    5 seated.

    6 Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in,

    7 please.

    8 [The accused entered court]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Good afternoon

    10 to the interpreters, although I don't hear them yet,

    11 since I can't see them. All right.

    12 Good afternoon to Prosecution and Defence

    13 counsel, to the accused.

    14 Mr. Greaves, how do you feel? Do you feel

    15 better?

    16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. Yes.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Have you had a

    18 good weekend? Mr. Jelisic, do you feel all right?

    19 THE ACCUSED: [interpretation] Yes, I do, much

    20 better. Thank you, Your Honour.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. We

    22 can have the witness brought in, and I think that

    23 Mr. Greaves should finish the cross-examination of this

    24 witness.

    25 Mr. Registrar, have our witness brought in.

  2. 1 Here he is.

    2 [The witness entered court]

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    4 seated, Mr. Didic. This is a public hearing. Let me

    5 remind you that you are still under oath. I hope the

    6 weekend in The Hague was not too long for you. Did you

    7 have a good weekend?

    8 THE WITNESS: Yes, everything is all right.

    9 Thank you.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Were you able

    11 to visit the city a little bit?

    12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. If

    14 you've gotten your strength back, you can now continue

    15 to answer the questions that Mr. Greaves is going to

    16 ask you, Mr. Greaves, the defence counsel for Mr. Goran

    17 Jelisic.

    18 Mr. Greaves, please proceed. Did I make a

    19 mistake? Please proceed.

    20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    21 Honour.


    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    24 Q. Mr. Didic, I want to ask you now about the

    25 interrogations concerning which you gave evidence on

  3. 1 Friday afternoon of last week.

    2 Firstly, can you help me, please, about

    3 this: When you were interrogated, in what topics were

    4 those who interrogated you interested?

    5 A. As I came from the area controlled by the

    6 army of BiH, I don't know what it was called then, the

    7 defence, they were asking me about its strength, about

    8 weapons, how many people were there, what was going on

    9 on the ground, who had a rifle, and things like that.

    10 Q. By the time you had been arrested, had you in

    11 any way taken part in military activities in that area?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Had you seen military activities about which

    14 you could talk?

    15 A. Combat activities were conducted 15

    16 kilometres from my village.

    17 Q. So is it right, therefore, that you were

    18 unable in any way to answer the questions that you were

    19 being asked?

    20 A. It is, yes, because I knew nothing about the

    21 forces or the Green Berets or anything.

    22 Q. Let me ask you this: Is that what you told

    23 them, that you knew nothing, or did you tell them

    24 anything that they wanted to hear?

    25 A. I told them I knew nothing, but the

  4. 1 interrogation and maltreatment went on. They beat me

    2 and all the rest of it.

    3 Q. So they didn't accept that you knew nothing

    4 of what was going on. Did they give you a reason as to

    5 why they didn't accept that?

    6 A. I don't know. They thought that I knew

    7 something, but I didn't. I was not involved in

    8 anything and I knew nothing.

    9 Q. Mr. Didic, I want now to ask you a little

    10 more detail about the interrogations that you say were

    11 conducted.

    12 A. Well, the interrogation was -- how should I

    13 put it? Goran interrogated me two or three times,

    14 asking me who was armed, who had a rifle, what was

    15 going on up there, but I didn't know about that, and

    16 the rest was as usual. He would take me out, beat me

    17 with various objects, with batons, his feet, broke

    18 Coca-Cola bottles against my head, and things like

    19 that. That is the routine. The only thing he didn't

    20 like was that I was a Muslim; that is how I understood

    21 it.

    22 Q. Is this right, Mr. Didic: that, in fact, the

    23 first interrogation that was conducted with you was on

    24 the 19th of May, not the 20th?

    25 A. The first day, the first day when I got

  5. 1 there.

    2 Q. Yes. According to you, although this is not

    3 accepted by the Defence, according to you, you were

    4 arrested on the 19th and taken to Luka on the 19th. So

    5 what --

    6 A. On the 19th.

    7 Q. What I'm putting to you is that the first

    8 interrogation conducted with you was on that day, the

    9 first day that you were at Luka?

    10 A. Yes, on the 19th of May.

    11 Q. By somebody called Dragisa Tesic or Dragan

    12 Tesic?

    13 A. I don't know the names of people who took

    14 us. There were two of them in multicoloured uniforms.

    15 But I didn't know those people, so I cannot really say

    16 what their names were.

    17 Q. Mr. Didic, I suggest to you that it's not

    18 right that you didn't know who it was. You told the

    19 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when you gave them

    20 an account of these matters, you told them that you'd

    21 been interrogated not by two men in uniform but by a

    22 man called Dragisa Tesic and two men in uniform; in

    23 other words, three people in all, one of whom you did,

    24 in fact, know?

    25 A. I may have seen them, but I didn't know any

  6. 1 one of them personally.

    2 Q. By comparison, what you told the Office of

    3 the Prosecutor, in 1995, was that your first

    4 interrogation had been on 20th of May and that had been

    5 conducted by five people: two soldiers and three

    6 civilians. Do you remember telling the Office of the

    7 Prosecutor that?

    8 A. I remember saying that there were three of

    9 them when they interrogated me, but I do not know their

    10 names.

    11 Q. What you were interrogated about were the

    12 activities of what was going on and what was described

    13 as the free territories?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. I want to turn now to the second

    16 interrogation that was conducted with you. Again, you

    17 told the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 that

    18 that had been on the 19th of May, not the 20th, and it

    19 was conducted by Kole.

    20 A. No. I don't think I stated that.

    21 Q. Well, the -- would you like to have a copy,

    22 in Bosnian, of the original statement from which I'm

    23 working, that purports to have been made by you? Would

    24 that assist you to refresh your memory, Mr. Didic? I

    25 don't want to be unkind to you if you don't think you

  7. 1 said that. Would that help you?

    2 A. [No audible response]

    3 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, I did not have an

    4 interpretation.

    5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not

    6 hear the answer.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Didic, did

    8 you understand the question that Mr. Greaves asked

    9 you? Do you want the question repeated?

    10 A. Yes. Will you please repeat the question?

    11 MR. GREAVES:

    12 Q. Mr. Didic, I'm not wanting to take advantage

    13 in any way of you and your memory. Do you recall

    14 making two statements about matters concerning your

    15 detention in Luka, one in 1992 to the

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities; that is, the District

    17 Court at Tuzla? Do you remember doing that?

    18 A. When I came out I did give a statement in

    19 1992, and then I gave no more statements until the end

    20 of the war; that is, when people from The Hague

    21 Tribunal came.

    22 Q. So made a second statement to the Office of

    23 the Prosecutor in 1995.

    24 Would it assist you in answering the question

    25 that I've asked about the second interrogation, and

  8. 1 that having been conducted by Kole, would it assist you

    2 to see the statement that you made to the

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities so that you can refresh

    4 your memory?

    5 A. Yes, I can have a look at the statement.

    6 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I've got a copy in

    7 the Bosnian version. It has some underlinings in it.

    8 I don't know whether my learned friend has a clean copy

    9 or whether he objects to my showing him one with some

    10 underlinings. I don't suppose the witness will

    11 understand the underlinings.

    12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: No objection.

    13 MR. GREAVES: Thank you. Would the usher

    14 please come and assist me?

    15 Q. Mr. Didic, I'd like you to look at that

    16 document, please. First of all, would you just help me

    17 by looking at each of the four pages that you've got

    18 there? Does your signature appear on each page?

    19 A. It does, yes.

    20 Q. Do you recall that that was the document

    21 which was produced for the District Court at Tuzla, by

    22 you, in association with those who were interviewing

    23 you?

    24 A. I gave that statement in 1992.

    25 Q. I'd like you to look, please -- it may be on

  9. 1 the second page. My version is in English, so the

    2 pages will be slightly different, Mr. Didic. Could you

    3 look, first of all, for a paragraph which I think

    4 starts: "After I told them everything"?

    5 Yes. It may be in the English version it's

    6 been translated slightly different, I'm told. It reads

    7 like this, so you can find it: "After I told them

    8 everything, they sent me back to the hangar, and some

    9 20 to 30 minutes later we were taken out again one by

    10 one."

    11 Can you see that phrase or something similar

    12 to that?

    13 A. Yes, I do. It's this first sentence here.

    14 Q. Could you just read that entire section down

    15 to: "From time to time we would hear singing and

    16 gunshots to the air"? Just a couple of sentences

    17 more.

    18 A. "When we told them all, they took us back to

    19 the hangar some 20 or 30 minutes. They again took us

    20 out one by one for interrogation. In the same building

    21 and in another office, we were interrogated by Kole.

    22 He was alone.

    23 "After the interrogation we were taken back

    24 to the hangar, and there we spent the night on the

    25 concrete in the part of the hangar where there were

  10. 1 about 100 inmates. From that part we could hear

    2 singing."

    3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Didic. That's all I need for

    4 the moment. Do you see there that what you are saying

    5 to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities is that you were

    6 interviewed by the man Kole but made no mention at all

    7 about being interviewed by Goran Jelisic, Monika, and

    8 on that occasion Dragan Tesic? Do you understand that

    9 there is a difference between those two things?

    10 A. It is quite possible there is a difference,

    11 but I gave that statement and then after the war I

    12 again gave this statement.

    13 Q. When you were interviewed by the authorities

    14 in Bosnia-Herzegovina -- I'm sorry, my learned friend

    15 has an objection.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes?

    17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I would like

    18 the Defence, when the Defence refers to prior witness

    19 statements, to refer exactly to what is in the

    20 statement.

    21 For instance, the Defence referred to this

    22 statement, that the witness never -- that the witness

    23 said that he had been interrogated on May 19. If you

    24 look at the Bosnian government statement, he never said

    25 that. He said on May 19 he was taken to the camp but

  11. 1 never mentioned that he was interviewed on May 19.

    2 The same with this last question. When the

    3 witness was asked why he didn't mention that Goran was

    4 at the interrogation, it is on page 2 of his Bosnia

    5 statement where he says: "I saw Dragan Zivkovic, Goran

    6 Jelisic, and Monika, who was short," and so on.

    7 "As soon as I stepped outside, they started

    8 to beat me."

    9 So he mentioned that Goran was there, that

    10 Goran beat him.

    11 So I would like the Defence to refer exactly

    12 to what the witness said in his statement to the

    13 Bosnian government. Thanks.

    14 MR. GREAVES: With great respect to my

    15 learned friend, I'm doing exactly that.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. The

    17 objection is sustained. Mr. Greaves, if you quote

    18 something, you must quote the whole thing.

    19 MR. GREAVES: With respect, Your Honour, I'm

    20 just about to tell you that my learned friend is not

    21 correct in what he says. I really don't want to get

    22 bogged down in this, but I'm looking at the statement.

    23 He says, quite clearly, arrested on May the 19th. He

    24 then gives an account of what happened to him on May

    25 the 19th, and after the passage which has just been

  12. 1 read out, after, he says this: "In the evening the

    2 next day, about 2100 hours on May the 20th."

    3 Unless I have missed something, the passage

    4 before that clearly refers to the 19th of May. I'm

    5 therefore asking about two interrogations and, in fact,

    6 third, which this witness said to Bosnia-Herzegovina

    7 happened on the 19th of May.

    8 If there is a dispute that my reading of that

    9 statement is incorrect, then of course I'm sure my

    10 learned friend will put that to me, but unless the

    11 words: "In the evening the next day, about 2100 hours

    12 on May the 20th," means something completely different,

    13 then what I'm asking about is the 19th of May.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    15 Mr. Greaves. I would like to consult with my

    16 colleagues.

    17 [Trial Chamber confers]

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I want to turn

    19 to the Prosecution and to the Defence and say that the

    20 Judges would like, on the basis of Rule 98, that

    21 whenever there is a contradiction shown by the Defence

    22 or the Prosecution, that is, between the statements

    23 made before the Tuzla Tribunal, I'm not sure why it was

    24 a court, whereas one talks about the Tribunal at Tuzla

    25 and other times the government, but let me go back to

  13. 1 my major problem.

    2 The Defence, and let me turn to Mr. Didic,

    3 has the basic right to try to find out whether there

    4 were any contradictions in your statement and to put

    5 your credibility in question.

    6 I'm sure that you will explain that these are

    7 the legal and judicial subtleties that are very

    8 important for the accused.

    9 As for the Judges, they have just deliberated

    10 and consider that whenever there is an alleged

    11 contradiction that the Defence wants to show between

    12 the statements made by a witness before the Tribunal at

    13 Tuzla, that is, Witness X, and the statements made to

    14 the Office of the Prosecutor, the Judges would like

    15 that an exhibit be tendered for these debates that will

    16 also apply to the previous witness once those

    17 statements indicate that they are from the Tribunal at

    18 Tuzla, because the Judges are sensitive to the fact

    19 that contradictions are being shown between the various

    20 statements of the witnesses, but these statements were

    21 given at different times, frequently in different

    22 contexts, and the Judges are very mindful of the need

    23 for consistency in these statements because, obviously,

    24 over hours and hours of statements there may be, and

    25 there certainly must be contradictions, some of which

  14. 1 apparently are very important.

    2 I'm not speaking specifically of you,

    3 Mr. Didic. This has happened with witnesses that

    4 preceded you as well.

    5 Therefore, I wanted to indicate the decision

    6 of the Judges; that is, that in the three languages the

    7 statements be provided -- I don't know who has them --

    8 made before the Tribunal at Tuzla, which will allow the

    9 Judges to evaluate the consistency of all the

    10 statements and to reach an idea as to the specific

    11 credibility of the witness.

    12 You may now continue, Mr. Greaves, unless

    13 there are any questions that you wish to ask.

    14 MR. GREAVES: I do, Your Honour. It's a

    15 practical one. As far as I know, these statements

    16 exist in their original form; in other words, in the

    17 form of the B/C/S language group, and I have a copy in

    18 English. I don't know in what language Your Honour

    19 would prefer to have these submitted to you, but I'm

    20 only in a position to give you a copy in English, and I

    21 don't know whether you would prefer to have it in

    22 French. I say that's a practical issue, because the

    23 Defence has absolutely no funds or facilities for

    24 having things translated into French.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I don't know

  15. 1 whether the Office of the Prosecutor has its own

    2 version. I think the best thing for us would be to

    3 have the B/C/S version -- to have it translated.

    4 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you have those statements

    5 that were given in Tuzla?

    6 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, we have all

    7 these statements. We'll check if they were translated

    8 into French. If not, we'll send for translation into

    9 French those statements which were already admitted

    10 into exhibits.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. At

    12 the end of the proceedings we will assign a number.

    13 Registrar, we won't use numbers now, but once

    14 the Prosecution has completed its case we will see the

    15 reference numbers we need for the various exhibits, and

    16 we can say this was the Tribunal's exhibit because it

    17 is the Tribunal which was requesting them.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. It will be indicated as

    19 is done in other cases.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. You

    21 may now proceed, Mr. Greaves. Let me remind you that

    22 you must continue to try to prove that the Prosecutor's

    23 assumption of genocide, thesis of genocide, is not

    24 correct, and I would like you to keep that firmly in

    25 mind. Thank you.

  16. 1 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to harp on about the

    2 practicalities. I just want to know what, (A), I'm

    3 allowed to do with this witness; and, (B), whether you

    4 need, for immediate use, a copy in English of what's

    5 presently available, because Your Honour hasn't

    6 indicated --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No. No, no.

    8 Not at all. It's just pursuant to Rule 98, the Judges

    9 have exhibits tendered, have them numbered, and the

    10 number -- the version that will be translated into

    11 French is supplied by the Office of the Prosecutor. It

    12 will be translated into French.

    13 So for the time being you have nothing

    14 further to do, but you should be informed. That is

    15 all.

    16 MR. GREAVES: And the other thing that Your

    17 Honour didn't tell me was can I continue on the

    18 assumption that what I have read out is a correct

    19 reading of the statement? Your Honour didn't indicate

    20 that. Otherwise, it's going to make it very difficult

    21 for me.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, we don't

    23 have it in front of us, and the Judges will decide in

    24 due course. I don't have the statement.

    25 Mr. Tochilovsky says that you did not fully read the

  17. 1 quotation. It sort of went out in the air like that.

    2 It's a bit more complicated for me.

    3 I think the best thing would be for you to

    4 continue with what you've done, and we will rule when

    5 our minds are clear.

    6 Perhaps both of you are right. Perhaps you

    7 are reading passages which different people would

    8 interpret differently. That's all I can tell you right

    9 now.

    10 However, I do commit you to remain within the

    11 scope of the examination in chief and not to lose sight

    12 of the fact that your only right is to refute the

    13 charge of genocide and never to forget that Goran

    14 Jelisic acknowledged the counts and that he pleaded

    15 guilty to those counts which inter alia concern this

    16 witness.

    17 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you want to intervene

    18 again?

    19 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Yes, Your Honour, just on

    20 the same issue. Since we are going to send

    21 translation, interpretation of those Bosnian statements

    22 which the Defence use as the exhibits, my understanding

    23 is that the Judges accepted that both the Bosnian

    24 statement and the statement taken by the Office of the

    25 Prosecutor are to be submitted together as exhibits.

  18. 1 In this case, both of them are to be submitted to the

    2 French translation and it will take some time.

    3 So we disclosed to the Defence those

    4 statements in English because it was our obligation

    5 under Rule 66. Now we'll submit them for French

    6 translation.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but during

    8 this time I'd ask the registrar that as soon as they

    9 have been provided in English that they be translated

    10 immediately.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] And this holds

    13 only when the Defence points out a contradiction in his

    14 statements as compared with the statements made before

    15 the Tribunal at Tuzla. We're not doing it for all

    16 witnesses, but only for two where Mr. Greaves has

    17 pointed out a number of contradictions.

    18 In other words, with these statements which

    19 must expressly be attached to the case file, the Judges

    20 wanted to examine the total consistency of the

    21 statements to see what is the witness's credibility.

    22 Mr. Didic, do not lose your concentration.

    23 This is a judicial argument, which is natural in a

    24 tribunal, but you've understood the essential point;

    25 that is, the Defence wants to bring out the

  19. 1 contradictions in your various statements. The

    2 Prosecutor, who has called you as a witness, considers

    3 that the contradictions were not properly quoted by the

    4 Defence, and so the Judges are saying, "Give us the

    5 statements and we will make our own evaluation."

    6 Do you understand?

    7 A. [No audible response]

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    9 Mr. Greaves, you may now proceed.

    10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.

    11 Q. Mr. Didic, I don't know how much you've

    12 followed of that argument, but let me just take you

    13 back to where we were. You had just read a short

    14 portion of your statement made to the

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, and I was putting to

    16 you that, in reference to that interview that you

    17 related there, you were interviewed only by Kole, and

    18 not by two soldiers and three -- I'm sorry, by Goran

    19 Jelisic, Monika, Kole, and Dragan Tesic.

    20 Can you help me about this: The matters

    21 which you recounted in 1992, were they fresh in your

    22 mind at the time?

    23 A. I made that statement three months after my

    24 exchange.

    25 Q. So is the effect of what you said, "Yes, they

  20. 1 were, indeed, fresh in my mind"? Is that what you're

    2 saying?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. If you need to look at your statement again,

    5 please do so and please indicate that you would like to

    6 do so. You said also, and I suggest this relates to

    7 the 19th of May, that you were interrogated a third

    8 time by three men whom you did not know on that

    9 occasion, after which you were put into a different

    10 part of the hangar.

    11 A. That was on the 20th of May, not the 19th. I

    12 was transferred to the other part of the hangar where

    13 there was a sliding door.

    14 Q. Is it right that some people were released at

    15 about that time, Mr. Didic?

    16 A. I'm not aware of anybody being released.

    17 Q. Was one of them the manager of Agro Banka, a

    18 grey-haired elderly man, a man whose first name was

    19 Amir, a large black-haired corpulent man? Does that

    20 help you?

    21 A. All of us who were brought from the SUP were

    22 there, and then those who were interrogated went to the

    23 other hangar. It's not that we were all interrogated

    24 at the same time; we went out one by one to the office,

    25 and then those who had been interrogated were taken to

  21. 1 the other part of the hangar where the other inmates

    2 were.

    3 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about this:

    4 Is it right that as well as the name "Adolf" being

    5 applied to Goran Jelisic, you also heard him being

    6 referred to as, I think the word is, "Duke" or

    7 "Vojvoda"; is that right?

    8 A. Right. His friends addressed him that way.

    9 I did not know Goran or Vojvoda. That's how they

    10 referred to one another.

    11 Q. As far as Goran Jelisic saying that he had

    12 killed people at the Sava River, again, I suggest you

    13 made no mention of that in your statement to the

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities and that's something

    15 that you've made up since that time, Mr. Didic.

    16 A. No, sir, I did not make anything up. You

    17 cannot give a detailed account of each and every hour

    18 that was spent there and every single word that was

    19 uttered, but I was there, I experienced all of that,

    20 and I know what I'm talking about.

    21 Q. Is this right, Mr. Didic: that as far as you

    22 were concerned, the commander of the camp, whilst you

    23 were there, was the man called Kole?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Did you know that person's second name or did

  22. 1 you come to learn it?

    2 A. Everybody called him Kole. I knew his first

    3 and last name, but I forgot them. But I know he and

    4 Monika were brother and sister or half-brother and

    5 half-sister.

    6 Q. If I said the name "Kosta Simonovic", would

    7 that refresh your memory as to who he was?

    8 THE INTERPRETER: There was no audible answer

    9 from the witness. I'm sorry.

    10 MR. GREAVES:

    11 Q. Mr. Didic, I think I heard what you said, but

    12 could you please repeat your answer so that the

    13 interpreters can hear? I think they missed it.

    14 A. Yes. Kole's name sounds familiar to me now

    15 that I've heard it.

    16 Q. So that Their Honours, when they have in

    17 front of them the statements they've been asking for,

    18 should know the circumstances, when you gave your

    19 account to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities -- and

    20 I'd like you to look, please, at the last paragraph of

    21 your statement, if you'd be so kind, Mr. Didic -- when

    22 you signed it, did the final paragraph have this: "At

    23 the end, I state that the full text of this statement

    24 was read to me, after having been formulated with my

    25 participation. I'm ready to repeat everything I stated

  23. 1 here in court or before some international commission

    2 which might be interested in the matter."

    3 Is that what it says?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Just so we can have this clear, was it, in

    6 fact, read over to you before you signed it?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And when it says "... having been formulated

    9 with my participation," did you dictate it or was it

    10 put into words by those who were asking the questions?

    11 A. Some people put questions to me and I

    12 answered them, and that was put down and that's it.

    13 Q. Thank you.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Can I just hear this

    15 answer again? He said, "Some people put questions to

    16 me and I answered them, and that was put down ..."

    17 Your question, in fact, was who put it down?

    18 MR. GREAVES: Let me just look again at it.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: Your question was: "... was it

    20 put into words by those who were asking the questions?"

    21 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I asked him an

    22 alternative question. I asked him if he dictated it or

    23 was it put into words by those who were asking the

    24 questions.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: Well, his answer is not clear,

  24. 1 for the second part of your question.

    2 MR. GREAVES: Yes. I took it that he had

    3 clarified what I'd asked him, and his answer was, "I

    4 was asked questions, I answered them, and it was the

    5 answers which were put down" but --

    6 JUDGE RIAD: Not in his words, because you

    7 asked, was it put down in his words.

    8 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. Let me clarify it

    9 with him, if I may, please, Your Honour.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Good.

    11 MR. GREAVES:

    12 Q. Mr. Didic, does it come to this: that you

    13 were asked questions by those who were writing out the

    14 statement, you gave the answers, and it was your

    15 answers which were written down and which you then

    16 subsequently signed as being correct? Is that a fair

    17 summary of what happened when you made that statement?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 MR. GREAVES: I hope this assists in

    20 answering Your Honour's question, and I hope that I

    21 made it clear.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

    23 MR. GREAVES:

    24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Didic.

    25 Mr. Didic, I'm coming close to the end. If I

  25. 1 may, I want to ask you about the time when you were

    2 transferred, which I think was sometime in July. Is it

    3 right that at that time, everybody at Luka was

    4 transferred out of the facility?

    5 A. I think that everybody was transferred to

    6 Batkovici. There were eight or nine buses. We were

    7 all transferred. I don't know if anyone stayed back.

    8 I don't think anyone remained. I don't know whether

    9 they brought in some other people afterwards.

    10 Q. And is this right: that when you were

    11 transferred, by that time, there were something like

    12 450 detainees at Luka?

    13 A. Yes, 400, 450. I wouldn't know the exact

    14 number, but that's the number approximately that was

    15 transferred from Luka to Batkovici.

    16 Q. In the period when you were at Luka, would

    17 this be right: that the population had changed in the

    18 sense that people had been released, new people had

    19 come in, and that that was a constant process

    20 throughout your stay at Luka?

    21 A. Before people from Brezovo Polje were brought

    22 in, the situation was always, approximately, more or

    23 less the same, 90 to 100 people, I don't know exactly,

    24 until they brought in these people from Brezovo Polje.

    25 From Brezovo Polje, they brought in about 350 persons.

  26. 1 I don't know exactly.

    2 Q. Thank you for that. The people that you've

    3 described as coming or being there before the arrivals

    4 from Brezovo Polje, that 90 to 100 people, was that the

    5 same 90 to 100 people that remained a constant group?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. The people who arrived from Brezovo Polje,

    8 were they -- I'm sorry. Let me start again. The

    9 people in the group before the arrivals from Brezovo

    10 Polje, were they of all ages and sexes or restricted to

    11 men between the ages of 18 and 60 or 18 and 65?

    12 A. Men. They were men from 18 to 60.

    13 Q. In relation to the group that was transferred

    14 from Brezovo Polje, is that limitation the same for

    15 them? Were they men between the age of 18 and 60/65?

    16 A. There were younger ones too, children too.

    17 There were children who were not even 18 yet.

    18 Q. When you say "children," are you saying small

    19 children or just young men who were teenagers?

    20 A. I'm referring to teenagers. I'm not

    21 referring to very young children, but I'm just saying

    22 that they weren't even 18.

    23 Q. Thank you. It seems that the word "teenager"

    24 is a universal word, Mr. Didic.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours just give me

  27. 1 a moment, please?

    2 Q. Can you just give us a date when the people

    3 from Brezovo Polje were brought in? Would that be

    4 around June?

    5 A. I cannot give you the exact date. They were

    6 brought in in June, though.

    7 Q. And were they put into the second hangar?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Again -- oh, I see the answer has come up on

    10 the transcript.

    11 Mr. Didic, I want to conclude, please, by

    12 asking you this: You were able to say that you'd heard

    13 of two of the people on the lists, Novalic and Osman

    14 Vatic; is that right?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. There were two lists, were there, that you

    17 were taken through, one long one and one slightly

    18 shorter?

    19 A. I recognised those two names on those lists;

    20 that's it: Novalic and Osman Vatic.

    21 Q. And Amir Novalic, you heard that he'd been

    22 killed at the SUP building. From whom did you hear

    23 that?

    24 A. I heard about it from a man whom they brought

    25 in to Luka, but he was killed during the war.

  28. 1 Q. Is that the only information you were told?

    2 Were you told when he was killed or anything like that?

    3 A. I do not know the exact date, but I heard

    4 that story, that Amir Novalic was killed in SUP. I

    5 don't know who killed him, though. I do not recall.

    6 Q. As far as Osman Vatic was concerned, is this

    7 right: He was at Batkovici with you?

    8 A. Yes. He was in the Luka camp, and then we

    9 were transferred together to Batkovici and then taken

    10 home, but we heard subsequently that he had been

    11 killed.

    12 Q. Was he released before you?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Can you remind us of the date when you left?

    15 I think it was October the 5th, is that right, when you

    16 were exchanged?

    17 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the

    18 answer. We're sorry.

    19 MR. GREAVES:

    20 Q. Mr. Didic, you're dropping your voice. I

    21 know it's not very easy, and we're very, very close to

    22 the end. Can you just repeat your answer, please?

    23 A. On the 5th of October, 1992, that is when I

    24 was exchanged at Dornji Rahic.

    25 Q. How long before you were exchanged would you

  29. 1 say that Osman Vatic left Batkovici camp?

    2 A. Could have been a month and a half or two. I

    3 wouldn't know the date because there were too many of

    4 us there. I don't think anyone could remember the

    5 exact date, but I know that he left quite a long time

    6 before I was exchanged.

    7 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Didic.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    9 Mr. Greaves.

    10 Mr. Tochilovsky, please proceed. Do you have

    11 any further questions?

    12 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I have no

    13 further questions.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    15 Judge Riad? Judge Rodrigues? No questions.

    16 I have no questions.

    17 Thank you, Mr. Didic. It wasn't too long,

    18 but you did have to spend the weekend here. Thank you

    19 very much for coming to The Hague. On behalf of my

    20 colleagues, we wish you good luck in the rest of your

    21 life, and we hope that you can try to forget these

    22 tragic events. We are now going to take care of you.

    23 Perhaps you need a few more moments to

    24 prepare the next witness. The afternoon is going to be

    25 long, so perhaps we should take a 15-minute break. All

  30. 1 right. We will take a break now.

    2 --- Recess taken at 3.05 p.m.

    3 --- On resuming at 3.34 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    5 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in,

    6 please. Please be seated.

    7 [The accused entered court]

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness H,

    9 please remain standing for a few moments. We're going

    10 to call you Witness H because the Tribunal has granted

    11 you all the protective measures that you've asked for.

    12 We're going to ask you to take an oath that the usher

    13 is showing you.

    14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    16 truth.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    18 may be seated. You have agreed that the name that was

    19 shown you is, in fact, your name; is that correct?

    20 Don't say it, though; just look at it. Do not say what

    21 you see; simply say "Yes" if it is, in fact, your

    22 name.

    23 Thank you. Thank you for having come --

    24 A. Yes.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] -- to the

  31. 1 International Tribunal as part of the trial here of

    2 Goran Jelisic, who is in the accused's box on your

    3 left.

    4 First you will answer questions that the

    5 Prosecutor asks you. I'm sure this was explained to

    6 you. After that you will be asked questions by Defence

    7 counsel.

    8 Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.

    9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: [Interpretation] Your

    10 Honour, may I have the usher's assistance in placing

    11 the summary of the witness's statements in front of

    12 him?


    14 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    15 Q. Witness H, is this the summary of your

    16 statements that you had the opportunity to read?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Is this a correct summary of your

    19 statements?

    20 A. It is.

    21 Q. Witness H, before the war did you live in

    22 Mujkici in Brcko, before the war started?

    23 A. I did, yes.

    24 Q. Were you admitted to a local hospital on

    25 May 4, 1992?

  32. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Were you then taken to Luka camp from the

    3 hospital?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And what is the date? When were you taken to

    6 Luka?

    7 A. The 11th of May.

    8 Q. Where were you kept when you were in Luka?

    9 A. The first hangar, the hangar which served for

    10 interrogations.

    11 Q. Do you remember whether there was a man by

    12 the name Muhamed Bukvic in Luka?

    13 A. There was, yes.

    14 Q. How was the man treated in Luka?

    15 A. When I saw him, I couldn't recognise him,

    16 because he was so badly beaten that his head was

    17 unrecognisable. He approached me and told me that he

    18 was so-and-so, and he also said who it was who beat

    19 him.

    20 Q. Who beat him?

    21 A. According to him, he was mostly beaten by

    22 Mr. Jelisic.

    23 Q. Did he tell you why Jelisic beat him?

    24 A. As one needed no reason to hit a man, we did

    25 not discuss reasons, because it often happened even

  33. 1 without knowing who was coming that that person would

    2 be beaten; that is, one simply did not ask why and why

    3 he had been brought to Luka.

    4 Q. Was a man by the name Kolar or Alija in

    5 Luka?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you know who brought him to Luka?

    8 A. He was brought by two soldiers escorting

    9 Mr. Jelisic.

    10 Q. Did Mr. Jelisic accuse Alija of anything?

    11 A. He did. That man, I think he was in his 70s,

    12 and his hand -- one of his hands, I don't remember

    13 whether left or right, was bandaged. He (sic) said

    14 that he was a sniper and that he'd been caught

    15 somewhere beating Serb troops.

    16 I believe that the man was old enough not to

    17 be able to pick up a rifle, that is, to look through

    18 the sights, let alone be a sniper at that advanced

    19 age.

    20 Q. Did that 70-year-old tell you how he was

    21 arrested?

    22 A. No. We did not talk much, as he really was

    23 not up to it. When he -- he was beaten severely when

    24 he came back to the hangar, and he could not talk much,

    25 but he said that they found him somewhere in the

  34. 1 street, and that was all that we learned from him.

    2 Q. Did you see who beat Alija?

    3 A. Yes. I don't know who beat him before that,

    4 before he was brought into the hangar, but I do know,

    5 since Alija was sitting next to me, that Mr. Jelisic --

    6 and I don't know where he got that particular tool, it

    7 was a short metal shovel with a wooden handle, and he

    8 hit him a couple of times. I repeat, I did not see,

    9 before he entered, whether he had been beaten or not.

    10 Q. Was Alija then brought back to the hangar

    11 after he was beaten?

    12 A. Alija was lying down next to us; rather, next

    13 to me, next to Bukvic; there were two or three

    14 detainees more there -- I remember a name. I don't

    15 remember other names -- for awhile.

    16 I can't remember whether it was an hour, an

    17 hour and a half, Alija, again escorted by two uniformed

    18 men, was taken out from the hangar; and across the

    19 hangar was Mr. Jelisic, and I don't know whether it was

    20 deliberately or by accident, met him and hit him a

    21 couple of times with a metal rod. I suppose -- I guess

    22 that it was a rod with which you open a manhole or

    23 something for water supply.

    24 Mr. Jelisic had a car parked there; rather,

    25 he had come in a car. So he entered the car and left

  35. 1 with Monika, in the direction of the petrol station.

    2 A few minutes later, the old gentleman was

    3 brought into the hangar by two soldiers. I remember

    4 both of them. One had yellow hair. We learnt later

    5 that he came from Trnova, in the municipality of

    6 Bijeljina, and just deposited him in the same place

    7 from which they had taken him away.

    8 The man was all battered and could not move.

    9 He gave no sign of life and he was already beginning to

    10 moan.

    11 I had a piece of cardboard with me. We were

    12 all sitting down on a cardboard. I tried to somehow

    13 push it under his head, but he issued a death throe and

    14 died.

    15 May I mention that after a certain time

    16 Mr. Jelisic drove in with his car, into the hangar, and

    17 there he ordered a soldier, and there were two of them,

    18 to bring some water, a bucket of water. That soldier

    19 who brought the bucket with water threw it over Alija's

    20 body, but since the death must have occurred before

    21 that, the fact that the water was poured over him did

    22 not change anything. The man did not move. But

    23 Mr. Jelisic then said, "Old body -- old heart and could

    24 not endure."

    25 Q. Thank you, Mr. H. Was a man, Stjepan Itric,

  36. 1 detained in Luka?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Who brought this man to the camp?

    4 A. I don't know who brought him to the hangar,

    5 but it was Jelisic who brought him into the hangar. I

    6 know Stjepan Itric personally, as we were next-door

    7 neighbours. I think we've known one another for

    8 30 years or so.

    9 Q. Mr. H, did Jelisic accuse Itric of anything?

    10 A. Yes. As he was brought into the hangar,

    11 Mr. Itric was beaten on the head. Naturally, I do not

    12 know about other parts of the body because we could not

    13 see them. But Jelisic, as they came into the hangar,

    14 told Mr. Itric to sit down on a chair in the left

    15 corner, from which nobody had got up yet, and accused

    16 him of having raped a 7-year-old Serb child.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Just a moment,

    18 please.

    19 Witness H, when you answer the questions,

    20 please turn to the Judges. Thank you.

    21 You may continue, Mr. Tochilovsky.


    23 Q. Witness H, you mentioned that you knew

    24 Stjepan Itric before the war. Can you characterise the

    25 man?

  37. 1 A. Yes. I knew him personally. At that time,

    2 he could have been about 40 or so, and I really doubt

    3 whether he was guilty of what he was being accused of.

    4 Knowing the man, he was a man who we never saw with a

    5 woman, let alone doing what they were charging him

    6 with. He was a very withdrawn person.

    7 Meanwhile, after Mr. Jelisic went out, I was

    8 not far from Itric, so I went to him and asked him

    9 about the circumstances that he had been brought

    10 there. He began to explain, we were whispering or

    11 talking very softly, and he said that he'd gone out to

    12 buy cigarettes for his father, and he had crossed the

    13 railway tracks, it was about 500 metres from his home,

    14 and that that is where he was arrested.

    15 Q. Was Stjepan Itric beaten in Luka?

    16 A. Yes, he was rather badly beaten, battered. I

    17 believe there was a soldier called Dragan, I think, in

    18 a multicoloured uniform, and he would come with another

    19 soldier. I can't remember how many times they came

    20 that night. They would take him out, but he always

    21 said -- naturally, as much as one could talk -- that he

    22 was always in Mr. Jelisic's office and that all the

    23 beatings that he got, according to him, came from that

    24 particular gentleman. But there was also side beatings

    25 as well by those soldiers who would take him out.

  38. 1 Q. Do you know the fate of this man?

    2 A. I do, unfortunately. He was taken away one

    3 night, I believe it was the second night, and we heard

    4 screams and cries that he was not guilty of what he was

    5 being charged with. But Itric is no longer among the

    6 living, and we do not know the circumstances, whether

    7 he died due to the injuries he received or whether he

    8 was shot dead.

    9 Q. Witness H, he was a wall painter from the

    10 hospital in Luka?

    11 A. Yes. Unfortunately, there were two house

    12 painters. One was killed before. I don't know who.

    13 The other house painter was with us and he was

    14 distributing the food, the food, I mean, which we got

    15 there in Luka. That evening, after the evening meal --

    16 I couldn't remember what time it was -- a soldier came

    17 and asked for the person who had distributed milk that

    18 evening.

    19 May I mention that that evening, we were

    20 issued milk and cornmeal. I remember that very well.

    21 I just happened to be next to a pile of socks, I was

    22 looking for a pair of socks for myself, and I saw

    23 Mr. Jelisic outside by the door. The gentleman who had

    24 been called out went out, and one could hear only two

    25 blunt shots. I could not see who killed him, whether

  39. 1 it was Mr. Jelisic, from his pistol which he always

    2 carried, or somebody else, but we did see the dead body

    3 on the road.

    4 Q. Was there any particular sound? Did you

    5 recognise the shot when the person was killed?

    6 A. It was the first time I heard a sound like

    7 that, but those who had been in Luka for some time

    8 already told me that that was the usual sound of a

    9 Scorpio with a silencer. But I'd never even seen that

    10 pistol before, nor had I heard a shot fired from it.

    11 This is what other detainees told me.

    12 Q. Were you interrogated by Dragisa Tesic in

    13 Luka?

    14 A. Tesic, yes.

    15 Q. Did Tesic tell you anything about your

    16 release from Luka?

    17 A. Yes. As I entered Mr. Tesic's and

    18 Kavrinovic's office, Mr. Tesic, (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted), he came out and told

    21 me not to worry, that he would rescue me but that he

    22 would have to consult Mr. Jelisic about it, after all.

    23 I didn't know what particular duties they performed,

    24 but I realised, from what Mr. Tesic had told me, that

    25 the commander of Luka -- that is how I saw it -- was

  40. 1 Mr. Jelisic.

    2 Q. Was there an announcement in Luka that there

    3 would be no further killings in the camp?

    4 A. I must apologise first if I go wrong with the

    5 dates. It's quite possible because, after all, seven

    6 years have elapsed since then. But I believe it was

    7 around the 16th of May that Mr. Jelisic came and said

    8 that there would be no more killings at Luka.

    9 Nonetheless, there was yet another case of somebody

    10 being taken away, and that was Suljo Pezerovic. He was

    11 wearing pyjamas because he had been brought from the

    12 hospital, and unfortunately he is no longer among the

    13 living.

    14 Q. Was there a detainee by the name of Ohro in

    15 Luka?

    16 A. Yes. Mr. Ohro Ozegovic was with us at Luka.

    17 I don't know when he came. But one evening,

    18 Mr. Ozegovic left the hangar and, after a certain

    19 period of time, came back in a customs officer's

    20 uniform with a baton in his hand, escorted by

    21 Mr. Jelisic. Presumably, he must have been given

    22 instructions as to what to do to the rest of us

    23 detainees or prisoners. I heard with my own ears, and

    24 all the other detainees did, Mr. Jelisic say, "Mind

    25 you, don't you try and say anything to Mr. Ozegovic."

  41. 1 It was a frequent scene. Mr. Ozegovic would

    2 go out to Mr. Jelisic, and there he would give him a

    3 drink or offer him a certain dose of alcohol, I don't

    4 know the quantity, and then he would come back to the

    5 hangar, beat us. I myself was beaten one night by

    6 Mr. Ozegovic. That evening, Mr. Jelisic entered in a

    7 vehicle with his lights on, stopped, and we, that is,

    8 all the detainees, had to pass in front of those car

    9 lights. I don't know whom he was looking for, but

    10 Mr. Ozegovic battered quite a number of our Bosniak

    11 fellows, guys.

    12 Q. Witness H, when were you released from Luka?

    13 A. I was released on the 27th of May, sometime

    14 in the morning, around 9.00, 10.00. I can't remember.

    15 Q. Were you then rearrested and detained in

    16 Batkovici camp?

    17 A. Unfortunately, on the 13th of July, not only

    18 I, but everybody who happened to be in the locality of

    19 Es were taken to Batkovici. I believe there were two

    20 buses that day.

    21 Q. Did you see Goran Jelisic when you were in

    22 Batkovici?

    23 A. In the latter half of September, I don't

    24 remember the date, somebody may have noted it down, but

    25 Goran Jelisic came to the camp at Batkovici. Why?

  42. 1 Because he was looking for detainees from Luka who

    2 would testify, according to those who went in front of

    3 Novi Sad Television cameras, that Mr. Jelisic had not

    4 ill-treated or killed anyone at the Luka camp.

    5 Among the witnesses whom Mr. Jelisic was

    6 looking for was Mr. Ozegovic, who had been to Luka, and

    7 I already explained what he had been doing at Luka. So

    8 Fikret, called Pikric, also volunteered, and he had not

    9 been to Luka, and Pajzer, I don't know his name, from

    10 Zenica, who had not been to Luka.

    11 Q. Now we will turn to the list of names you

    12 were shown prior to your testimony.

    13 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I would ask the usher to

    14 place in front of the witness Exhibit 12 and then

    15 Exhibit 13.

    16 Q. First, Exhibit 12. On page 1, you can see

    17 the name Sakib Becirevic. Do you know the fate of this

    18 man?

    19 A. I know he was killed, but I don't know

    20 where. His nickname is Kibe. He was a butcher. Yes,

    21 we knew him well.

    22 Q. You didn't see the killing, but you heard

    23 about it; is that correct?

    24 A. On the 11th is when I came to Luka, and

    25 according to what I was told, he had been killed in the

  43. 1 barracks, but I did not see it with my own eyes.

    2 Q. The next name on the page is Midhat Bukvic.

    3 What do you know about this man?

    4 A. Midhat Bukvic could have been in his 40s or

    5 40-odd. He was the brother of the Bukvic we mentioned

    6 who was so badly battered at Luka. He lived in my

    7 neighbourhood, (redacted)

    8 (redacted).

    9 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

    10 A. According to his brother, he was killed at

    11 Luka. I don't know the date.

    12 Q. On the same page, Stipo Glavosevic.

    13 A. I think that all of those who were at Luka at

    14 the time knew Stipo. I have heard about him. I knew

    15 Stipo personally. Stipo perhaps lived 100 metres away

    16 from Mr. Midhat Bukvic. He was a lawyer by

    17 profession. According to detainees at Luka, his ears

    18 were cut off, and he was killed at Luka in the same

    19 hangar where I was taken to.

    20 Q. Page 2 of the same exhibit. In the middle of

    21 the list, you can see the name Sadik Jukic.

    22 A. Yes. We called him Sadan. He could have

    23 been born in 1932 or 1933. (redacted)

    24 (redacted). He was a pensioner. I am told that he was

    25 killed in Mujkici, (redacted), but

  44. 1 I do not know who could be the perpetrators.

    2 Q. Next after Jukic is Jusuf Kapkovic.

    3 A. Jusuf Kapkovic is a man who lived at Klanac,

    4 had his own house there. He had five or six children

    5 and I know them. I believe it was on the 16th of June

    6 that he left and never came back. We do not know where

    7 he went, but he's gone.

    8 Q. On the same page, Kartal Rasim and Kartal

    9 Kasim, what do you know about these two men?

    10 A. Two brothers, Kasim and Rasim Kartal. Rasim

    11 Kartal's wife worked at the same place where I worked.

    12 I know both of them very well. They were athletes.

    13 They were sportsmen in Brcko.

    14 According to people who stayed at Luka, they

    15 were killed on the same day at Luka, but I must mention

    16 that I was not at Luka at the time.

    17 Q. On the same page, Sadik Kombic.

    18 A. Sadik Kombic lived in Novo Brcko. His

    19 family's still in Rahic, as his are in Donja Rahic. He

    20 lived near my mother's. I knew him since childhood. I

    21 believe we're almost of the same age. There may be a

    22 year or two of difference. He disappeared and I do not

    23 know who killed him.

    24 Q. Next page, page 3. The middle of the list

    25 you can see a name, Muranjkovic Galib.

  45. 1 A. I think that about 70 per cent of Brcko

    2 inhabitants knew Galib Muranjkovic, because he was a

    3 very prominent citizen of Brcko. However, according to

    4 his son, who was detained at Batkovici, and I can't

    5 remember the date, he was taken from Janja, and there

    6 all trace of him is lost.

    7 Q. On the same page, Pezerovic, Ibrahim; and

    8 Pezerovic, Sefko. What do you know about these two

    9 names?

    10 A. Two brothers. One, Ibrahim, worked the same

    11 place as I did, and Sefko was with the railways

    12 company.

    13 Around the 15th or 16th of May they left home

    14 through Rijeka, and there our people, I mean our men

    15 from security, stopped them. They went home to collect

    16 some of their effects, but they do not seem to have

    17 either taken their effects or ever come back again.

    18 Q. Pezerovic Suljo.

    19 A. I've already mentioned, when describing Luka,

    20 I've already mentioned Suljo Residovic [Error in

    21 realtime]. He was a man who was brought from the

    22 hospital because he was wounded somewhere. He was a

    23 driver. I don't know the company he worked for, but he

    24 arrived there in blue pyjamas. He arrived at Luka

    25 wearing blue pyjamas. After the 15th or 16th, I cannot

  46. 1 recall the date, he was taken away and never came

    2 back.

    3 Q. On the same page --

    4 MR. GREAVES: I think the transcript has used

    5 a different name for the surname of the man that this

    6 witness mentioned. I think it's incorrect. Can my

    7 learned friend indicate that he was asking about Suljo

    8 Pezerovic?

    9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: [Interpretation] Suljo

    10 Pezerovic, yes.

    11 Q. The next name is Pobric Senad.

    12 A. Senad Pobric, Sefko Pezerovic, Brahim

    13 Pezerovic, they're all of my mother's neighbours.

    14 Senad was a child -- I don't mean child

    15 really, but much younger than I am. He disappeared

    16 early in May. Where and how, I don't know, but I know

    17 his mother. His mother lives in the area of Rahic,

    18 that is area of Palanka, with a daughter.

    19 Q. The last page of this document, the name

    20 Vugrincic Franjo.

    21 A. Yes. A man who lived at Meraje. He was a

    22 repair mechanic for electrical appliances. He was

    23 taken away from Marija. When, I don't know, but he

    24 does not be among the living any more.

    25 Q. Let me turn to Exhibit 13 now. At number 2

  47. 1 there is the name Ahmet Hodzic. What do you know about

    2 this man? What happened to him?

    3 A. A man who was highly regarded by all. At

    4 that time he also had a thriving business. He lived in

    5 a part of Brcko called Mujkici. We call it that way.

    6 When he was killed, I do not know, but

    7 according to the stories of those who were detained in

    8 the mosque, he was taken away and never returned.

    9 Q. Number 3, there is the name Husein Kaknjo.

    10 What do you know about his fate?

    11 A. Unfortunately, I know Husein Kaknjo very

    12 well, since I bought a plot of land in Mujkici from

    13 that gentleman to build a house of my own.

    14 I heard that he remained there in Brcko, that

    15 he's no longer among the living, but I'm telling you

    16 that at I think he was well over 70.

    17 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

    18 A. He's not among the living. Nobody talks

    19 about him. I go to Brcko very seldom, but I heard that

    20 he was taken away because they claimed that he was --

    21 he was a man who made major contributions, lots of

    22 money, to the SDA party. At any rate, he's no longer

    23 among the living.

    24 Q. Numbers 6 and 7, there are names of Kasim

    25 Kartal and Rasim Kartal. What do you know about those

  48. 1 two men?

    2 A. I think that in my previous statement I said

    3 that Kasim and Rasim were two brothers and that they

    4 were killed in Luka. You have my statement from Luka.

    5 Q. Number 16, there is the name Sakib

    6 Becirevic.

    7 A. Yes. That's Kibe.

    8 Q. So this is the Kibe you gave testimony about

    9 today?

    10 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's the man.

    11 We all called him Kibe. I didn't even know that Sakib

    12 was his real name. He was a butcher.

    13 Q. Number 17, Sakib Edhemovic.

    14 A. Sakib Edhemovic. One of the best surgeons in

    15 the canton of Tuzla. We all knew him as a physician.

    16 During the war he stayed in Brcko. They say

    17 that he was killed in Brcko. I did not see that.

    18 Q. Number 23, Vasif Sulejmanovic.

    19 A. Vasif Sulejmanovic had a private business.

    20 He owned a TV station in Brcko.

    21 Vasif remained in Brcko. They say that he

    22 was often seen in Brcko with a white armband of some

    23 kind, but afterwards he was not seen. What happened to

    24 him, that I do not know.

    25 Q. And number 27, there is the name Muhamed

  49. 1 Zelenjakovic. What do you know about this man?

    2 A. Yes. Muhamed Zelenjakovic worked at the

    3 hospital as a barber. I know him personally. I know

    4 him well. I know all three brothers well. All three

    5 were barbers. Two of them had barber shops of their

    6 own and he was employed in the hospital. But he

    7 remained there with his son.

    8 He is no longer among the living. His son is

    9 no longer among the living.

    10 Q. Number 33, Himzo Kevric. Do you know what

    11 happened to this man?

    12 A. Himzo Kevric was in charge of the Novi Dom

    13 shop across the street from the bank. All of us in

    14 Brcko know him. Well, not everybody, but 90 per cent

    15 of us at least. All adults know him. He retired just

    16 before the war.

    17 He stayed in his own home, the one that he

    18 had in the Serb part of town, together with

    19 Mr. Sejdalija Muminovic.

    20 People say -- I heard this -- he was killed

    21 on the 16th of June, in his basement. I wish to

    22 mention that I was not there and I could not go there

    23 at the time, but I heard that story. At any rate, both

    24 gentlemen are no longer among the living.

    25 Q. You've just mentioned Sejdalija Muminovic.

  50. 1 Is that the name under 34?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Number 36, Osman Vatic. Do you know the fate

    4 of this man?

    5 A. I don't know. I would kindly ask the Court

    6 to allow me to go back to Luka once again as far as

    7 Osman Vatic is concerned.

    8 Osman Vatic is a respectable lawyer in

    9 Brcko. He was highly respected by all. He was brought

    10 into Luka. He was put on a chair. As I say, I cannot

    11 remember the date. Mr. Jelisic walked in after him and

    12 said, "This is man who gave 50.000 marks for the

    13 SDA party so that it could arm itself in order to kill

    14 the Serbs."

    15 I personally saw Osman Vatic in Batkovici as

    16 well. He was relieved from Batkovici at the end of

    17 September. I cannot recall the date. He was killed in

    18 front of his own house.

    19 Q. Do you know who killed him? Do you know any

    20 details about that killing?

    21 A. There were different stories going around,

    22 but I'm not well-informed and I cannot give any other

    23 information as to who killed him.

    24 Q. Thank you, Mr. H.

    25 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I don't have any further

  51. 1 questions, Your Honours.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    3 Mr. Tochilovsky.

    4 Witness H, as I've already told you, you will

    5 now be asked some questions by the Defence.

    6 Let me turn to you, Mr. Greaves. Do you also

    7 intend to call the credibility of this witness in doing

    8 your cross-examination in respect of inconsistencies

    9 with the previous statements that he gave?

    10 MR. GREAVES: I'm not going to go quite as

    11 far as that. I'm going to just ask him about his

    12 memory and his ability to remember dates and detail.

    13 So it's not quite the same line of cross-examination as

    14 that.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you know

    16 about how much time you're going to need, about?

    17 MR. GREAVES: I would think about 40 minutes,

    18 but I hope to keep it a bit shorter than that, but

    19 please don't grumble if I --

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    21 MR. GREAVES: (Inaudible)

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Since this is

    23 your initial approximation, which is less than the

    24 hour, I'm not going to take you literally. You know,

    25 we apply our rules here with a degree of flexibility.

  52. 1 Please begin.

    2 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    3 Q. Mr. H, I'm going to ask you some questions.

    4 Please will you help me in this way: If you do not

    5 understand the question that I ask you, please don't be

    6 shy; stop me, tell me you don't understand it, and I'll

    7 try and rephrase it so that it's a better asked

    8 question. All right. Do you agree to do that with

    9 me?

    10 A. Okay.

    11 Q. Thank you. Mr. H, we're now some seven years

    12 on from the events -- seven years plus on from the

    13 events of May 1992. Would this be fair: that in the

    14 intervening period, some of the detail of dates and

    15 places and so on may have become, in your own mind,

    16 mixed up and you may have made mistakes about them?

    17 Would that be fair? It would be understandable if that

    18 were the case.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. That's possible?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. The reason that I ask you that is that in

    23 evidence today, you've told us that you went to Luka

    24 detention facility on the 11th of May, but when you

    25 gave an account of this matter to the authorities in

  53. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you indicated to them it was the

    2 13th of May. Is it possible that you were, in fact,

    3 mistaken and it may have been the later date that you

    4 went to Luka?

    5 A. No. I doubt that I made a statement to

    6 anyone saying that it was on the 13th. I know that it

    7 was a Monday when I went to the hospital on the 4th of

    8 May, and I know that it was a Monday, the 11th, when I

    9 came in Luka. I don't know who I gave that kind of a

    10 statement to.

    11 Q. Nothing very much may turn on it, but it's

    12 just -- really just to see whether you may be incorrect

    13 as to how long you were in Luka.

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. The reason I'm asking is because we have your

    16 statement that you made to the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    17 authorities and it says 13th of May, but you think the

    18 earlier date is correct?

    19 A. Well, let me tell you. On the 13th of May

    20 or, rather, when I got out, two or three days later

    21 they asked me, perhaps, but I wish to mention that

    22 never in any statement I made to any authorities or any

    23 investigators did I give such a statement. I remember

    24 exactly which date and which day it was when I was

    25 arrested or, rather, when I was taken out of hospital,

  54. 1 because I was a patient. I was a sick man. I remember

    2 my release very well as well.

    3 Q. All right. Mr. H, help me about this,

    4 please: When you first got to Luka camp, were you

    5 accompanied by others?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. When you arrived there, what time of day was

    8 it?

    9 A. We came in the morning, sometime around

    10 10.00, 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning. I can't

    11 remember. There were eight of us and a woman. All of

    12 us were sick persons, in pyjamas.

    13 Q. When you arrived at Luka, is this right: You

    14 were shown initially into the hangar where other people

    15 were being detained?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. By people being detained, who were already

    18 there before you, how many people were there before

    19 you?

    20 A. As far as I could see, perhaps three or four

    21 in that part when I got in.

    22 Q. And you spent about a fortnight or a bit more

    23 than a fortnight in the facility. During that time,

    24 did the population, if I may call it that, in terms of

    25 numbers, change at the facility? In other words, did

  55. 1 some people get released, and other people, were they

    2 brought in so that the numbers were ever-changing?

    3 A. Yes. Yes. This happened very often, that

    4 some people would be released and would go home -- I

    5 don't know whether they would be home or elsewhere --

    6 and others would be brought in. I can even say to you

    7 that, regrettably, there were women with children that

    8 were brought in from their homes.

    9 Q. In general, Mr. H, is this right: that by

    10 far, the majority of prisoners, detainees, were men,

    11 whether fit or unfit, like yourself, as it were, but

    12 men between the ages of 18 and 60 or 18 and 65? Would

    13 that be fair?

    14 A. The majority, yes, but I wish to mention to

    15 you that there were also men over 70 and even women. I

    16 told you a minute ago that there were even women with

    17 children there.

    18 Q. Of course, and I was just going to come to

    19 them. Is this also right, Mr. H: that some people

    20 came and were detained only for a very short period,

    21 sometimes came in and went out the same day or were

    22 released within two or three days, and others were kept

    23 for longer periods; would that be fair?

    24 A. Certainly, yes, there were men who came

    25 together with me from the hospital. There was a man

  56. 1 named Mujo. I can't remember his last name. He was

    2 released on the same day. Very often in the morning,

    3 they would call out a few names and release these

    4 persons, and there were some people who were released

    5 within the scope of an hour during the same day.

    6 Q. And the women and children whom you've

    7 described, in general, were they released almost

    8 immediately?

    9 A. I remember a family or, rather, two families,

    10 it's the Ramovic family, where all the family members,

    11 women and children included, I think they were with us

    12 for six or seven days. We all slept together. The

    13 other women, I think, came after the 16th of June.

    14 They were at the entrance into the hangar on the

    15 right-hand side. One was from Mujkici, Mirsada, and

    16 they were released after a day or two.

    17 Q. Help us about this, please: In the period of

    18 your detention at Luka, can you describe, on average,

    19 how many people were detained on any one day at the

    20 facility?

    21 A. A few minutes ago, we said that it was very

    22 difficult to tell because the number of people varied,

    23 and it is difficult to tell. I can say that the

    24 hangar, the one on the right-hand side, was full. We

    25 never counted the people who were there. We counted

  57. 1 those who left and never returned, and where they went

    2 to, that, I do not know.

    3 Q. I'd like now to turn to this, please: Were

    4 you interrogated at Luka?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. On how many occasions were you interrogated?

    7 A. Twice.

    8 Q. Can you tell me this, please, Mr. H: Before

    9 the war began in May 1992, had you taken any part

    10 yourself in political life in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    11 A. I was never interested in politics. I had a

    12 very good job in a work organisation where I worked

    13 quite a bit, and I was never active as far as political

    14 parties are concerned. Before that, I was in the

    15 former League of Communists or party, but I was only a

    16 member.

    17 Q. Just so that we can be clear about this,

    18 would this be a fair comment, and if it's not, tell me

    19 immediately: Membership in the League of Communists

    20 was sometimes helpful in terms of one's career

    21 prospects. It didn't necessarily mean a strong

    22 attachment to the ideals of the party.

    23 A. Since I did already have a career, I did not

    24 need political structures of the party in order to make

    25 a career for myself. I already had a career.

  58. 1 Q. All right, Mr. H.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please face the

    3 Judges when you give your answers. Thank you.

    4 MR. GREAVES:

    5 Q. Mr. H, when you were interrogated, who was it

    6 who interrogated you?

    7 A. Once I was interrogated by Mr. Tesic, but the

    8 first time, I was interrogated by some man called Sasa,

    9 as I later found out. I don't know where he was from,

    10 but I know that all the things I had -- and I'm

    11 probably not the only one to say this -- all the things

    12 I had that were any good, of any value, money, my

    13 watch, wallet, whatever, I had to leave with Mr. Sasa

    14 for safekeeping, and we know what kind of safekeeping

    15 that is.

    16 The other time, I was interrogated by

    17 Mr. Tesic, and that is all as far as interrogation is

    18 concerned.

    19 Q. Mr. Tesic, was he the person who interrogated

    20 you on the second interrogation or the first one?

    21 A. The second.

    22 Q. On the first interrogation, apart from an

    23 interest in your valuables and so on, what else was the

    24 subject of that interrogation, Mr. H?

    25 A. The subject was my arrival, my pre-war

  59. 1 occupation. Another subject was who was rich in Brcko,

    2 who had lots of money, and a subject was how to reach

    3 these people.

    4 This gentleman, Sasa -- I don't know whether

    5 this is his name or nickname -- took the money of those

    6 people whom he interrogated, but he also wanted all

    7 these people to give their money to him of their own

    8 free will. I had a bit of trouble, unfortunately,

    9 because he blackmailed me. He said that by the next

    10 day, by 14.00, I should bring him 2.500 marks. If I

    11 didn't do so, he would kill me. However, I was

    12 fortunate enough, or perhaps to the regret of the

    13 others, he came the next day -- I don't know whether he

    14 came because of me or because of some other person, I

    15 don't know , but at any rate, he took away a prisoner

    16 who never came back.

    17 Q. As far as your second interrogation was

    18 concerned, that was conducted by a police inspector,

    19 Mr. Tesic?

    20 A. Yes. These were probably regular

    21 interrogations. I did not consult the other persons

    22 who were interrogated. (redacted)

    23 (redacted). Even while he was interrogating me and as

    24 he was going out into the hall, he mentioned to me in

    25 passing where my family was. This same Mr. Tesic, on

  60. 1 the 27th of May, probably with the acquiescence of the

    2 commander of the camp, or whatever he was called, gave

    3 me a document stating that I could leave Luka. I have

    4 this document until the present day.

    5 Q. Apart from the issue of your release, was he

    6 asking about people who were involved in the SDA,

    7 people who were involved in military activities, people

    8 who were in the army, topics of that sort?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Was there an occasion when you were asked

    11 about your family, particularly with a view to finding

    12 out whether any of your family were in the military?

    13 A. Yes. He asked me how many children did I

    14 have; (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted).

    17 Q. You've just told us that you were given a

    18 pass and that you still have that document.

    19 Whereabouts is that document?

    20 A. I can show it to you, if you like. Here it

    21 is. I can make a present of it also because it's a

    22 copy. I don't need it.

    23 Q. I wonder if I might have a look, please.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]

    25 Mr. Tochilovsky, this is a Prosecution witness. What

  61. 1 is your opinion? We are discussing a document

    2 independently of what the Judges can see. What is your

    3 opinion about this?

    4 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, before giving

    5 an opinion about the attachment of this document as an

    6 exhibit, we would like to see it first, if the Defence

    7 requests it as an attachment, but we don't --

    8 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps I can just go quickly

    9 to the heart of it. Perhaps I can have a look at it.

    10 If there's anything I want to ask about it, then I will

    11 proffer it and we'll see whether we need to have it.

    12 It may be that nothing turns on it at all.

    13 Would that be a sensible way to deal with

    14 it?

    15 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: We have no objection to

    16 that.

    17 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    19 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, if I might see the

    20 document. Your Honours, give me a moment, please.

    21 Perhaps it could be shown to my learned

    22 friend for the Prosecution and then to Your Honours.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. I

    24 don't know what this document concerns. It's in

    25 Serbo-Croat, I assume. Perhaps this could be given to

  62. 1 the interpreters so that a side translation can be

    2 provided, and after that, we will admit it as an

    3 exhibit. For the continuation of these proceedings, it

    4 might be best first to have the translation of it.

    5 My colleague suggests that we put it on the

    6 ELMO --

    7 MR. GREAVES: I think that that wouldn't be a

    8 good idea because it contains the name of the protected

    9 witness.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, there is

    11 the name, and the interpreters are also telling me that

    12 somebody has to read it out loud. All right.

    13 Can the interpreters interpret it or

    14 translate it, so long as the name is covered up? All

    15 right. Please try to work under those conditions. I

    16 think that would be the simplest way of proceeding;

    17 that is, we will put it on the ELMO but cover up the

    18 witness's name. But let's be sure that the copy is

    19 large enough so that the interpreters can work

    20 properly.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: It should be read out by

    22 somebody so that both booths can keep the pace.

    23 MR. GREAVES: I was going to ask if the

    24 witness could read the details of the pass, excluding

    25 his own name.

  63. 1 Q. Witness H, can you see the screen properly

    2 and are you able to read the pass on that screen? I

    3 wonder whether you would be kind enough to go through

    4 each line and tell us what it says, please.

    5 A. I don't have to read the first line because

    6 there is my name there. In the second line, it has the

    7 number of my identity card. After that, for a limited

    8 movement, for free movement between 6.00 until 21.00 in

    9 the combat area in the territory of the municipality of

    10 Brcko. The pass is valid only with the identity card,

    11 and signed "Serb Public Security Station," a signature,

    12 I don't know whose.

    13 But I should like to tell you something in

    14 relation to this document. I, and probably other

    15 detainees; that is, those who had their identity cards

    16 or driver's licenses or any kind of a personal

    17 document, were taken away, those documents, at Luka. I

    18 don't know where they were. So this document, it says

    19 that you must also show your identity card to have this

    20 pass valid, and yet there have been a number of cases,

    21 it also happened to my wife, where they simply tore up

    22 this kind of pass. Because there are all sorts of

    23 people there, so that I was not allowed to move about

    24 either. I'm telling you that I simply did not leave my

    25 flat until I was taken away to Batkovici. I never left

  64. 1 my flat.

    2 Q. Witness H, could I just draw your attention,

    3 please, above your name, there are five lines of script

    4 at the top of the page. Could you also tell us what

    5 those say, please?

    6 A. Yes. "Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    7 SAO, Sambija, at Majrica, municipality of Brcko," the

    8 number of the document, "301/92, Brcko," dated the 27th

    9 of May, 1992.

    10 Q. Was that document signed in your presence or

    11 was it already signed when it was given to you?

    12 A. It was given to me personally, to my hands,

    13 but I don't know who signed it and I really cannot say

    14 who that is. I know where I was issued it, in

    15 Mr. Tesic's office, but whose signature this is, I just

    16 don't know.

    17 Q. Although you didn't have your identity card,

    18 did you try and use this pass, and was it, on

    19 occasions, accepted as genuine?

    20 A. I already mentioned it before, that as of the

    21 day when I left Luka on the 27th of May until I was

    22 arrested on the 13th of July, I never left my flat. So

    23 it wasn't of much use to me. I did not really need

    24 it.

    25 [Trial Chamber confers]

  65. 1 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    2 Honour.

    3 Q. Mr. H, can I ask you this: Apart from

    4 Dragisa Tesic, who you've described as a police

    5 inspector, was there also another police inspector whom

    6 you recognised at the camp?

    7 A. Yes, Mr. Kavrinovic.

    8 Q. Would that be Petar Kavrinovic?

    9 A. Petar, yes, Boro's brother.

    10 Q. Like Mr. Tesic, had you known him before your

    11 detention at Luka?

    12 A. Yes. I knew his brother better, but I also

    13 knew him because he was also with the police

    14 administration.

    15 Q. Did you become aware, during your stay at

    16 Luka, that he was also interrogating detainees?

    17 A. All sorts of rumours spread. Some were taken

    18 to Mr. Tesic, some were taken to Kole, the police chief

    19 or whatever he was called, of the camp. I don't know

    20 what they were called. Some were taken to Sasa's. So

    21 there were interrogations also at Mr. Tesic's.

    22 Q. Would this be right: that these were the

    23 people who were taking decisions as to who should and

    24 who should not be issued passes, who should be

    25 detained, so on and so forth, who should be

  66. 1 transferred; would that be right?

    2 A. It is hard to say whether it is right or

    3 wrong. I should merely like to mention that -- I

    4 already said that Mr. Tesic had promised that nothing

    5 would happen to me, that no harm would come to me, and

    6 that I would be released after he consulted the

    7 gentleman, the above-mentioned Jelisic, and I guess,

    8 that's only my opinion, that some decisions must have

    9 been made there.

    10 Q. Apart from saying that he wanted to speak

    11 with Mr. Jelisic about whether or not you should be

    12 released, was any further explanation of any kind given

    13 as to why he had to do that or why he wanted to do

    14 that?

    15 A. No, I don't know if he talked to Mr. Jelisic

    16 or not or whether he says that. I really cannot give

    17 you any definite answer.

    18 Q. Thank you. As far as Mr. Jelisic is

    19 concerned, is this correct: that around the 15th or

    20 16th of May, you believe that he left the camp?

    21 A. Yes. And you know how I know that? That

    22 night, according to the chat among the soldiers, among

    23 the guards at Luka, they were to go, and as they put

    24 it, liberate a locality called Klanac. I believe that

    25 Jelisic turned up on the next day -- again I say I'm

  67. 1 not sure about the date, whether it was the 15th or

    2 16th -- with his hand bandaged. I don't know what

    3 happened.

    4 Q. And that was the last that you saw of him

    5 whilst you were at Luka?

    6 A. No. Jelisic was at Luka, but he came to our

    7 hangar very seldom because he had already had a man,

    8 and I've already mentioned him, Mr. Ozegovic, who did

    9 what he was supposed to do, I guess.

    10 Q. Is this right: that between the 16th of May

    11 and you seeing him or seeing him again at Batkovici,

    12 you did not see him between those two dates?

    13 A. I can't be quite certain if I saw him on the

    14 16th and then not -- and any time between -- before the

    15 27th because there were no crimes committed in the

    16 hangar, so we did not notice him. And because of that

    17 I really cannot tell you if he was there or not.

    18 Q. The reason I ask, Mr. H, and I want to just

    19 refresh your memory, is that you told the Office of the

    20 Prosecutor this: "Around the 15th, 16th of May,

    21 Vojkan, Goran, and a few more soldiers said, 'From

    22 today on there will be no more killings.'"

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. "I believe it was that night that Goran left

    25 the camp. The next time I saw Goran was at Batkovici."

  68. 1 Does that refresh your memory?

    2 A. I just said that I could not really remember

    3 the date. As I said, we did not notice him -- we did

    4 not see him enter the hangar between that time we saw

    5 him with his hand bandaged and when we left. We did

    6 not see him.

    7 Q. Mr. H, I want to ask you now very briefly

    8 about the three people you talked about earlier on:

    9 Novalija, Itric, and the painter.

    10 As far as the man Itric is concerned -- I'm

    11 sorry. Let me just deal quickly with the man called

    12 Novalija. As far as Novalija was concerned, is this

    13 right: Whatever his age, he was accused of being

    14 involved in being a sniper?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. And that that was the cause of the hostility

    17 towards him, was that he was suspected of having taken

    18 part in that activity?

    19 A. These are assumptions.

    20 Q. Yes. Whether it's an assumption or not,

    21 Mr. H, just answer the question. That was the focus of

    22 the hostility towards this man, the accusation that he

    23 was a sniper?

    24 A. Yes. Yes.

    25 Q. As far as the man Itric is concerned, the

  69. 1 focus of the hostility towards him was that he was

    2 alleged to have raped a young girl; is that right?

    3 A. It is.

    4 Q. By "young", I mean someone who is aged 7.

    5 A. That was said when Itric was brought into the

    6 hangar, that the child was 7 years old.

    7 Q. Mr. H, can you help me about this: In the

    8 country where I come from, people who are alleged to

    9 have raped small children are frequently treated with

    10 very considerable hostility, whether there's a war

    11 going on or not. Is that the case in your country?

    12 For example, when people are arrested, they have to be

    13 protected from the mob at a police station.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That is moving

    15 outside the examination-in-chief. You're trying to get

    16 an opinion here out of the witness. Please move to

    17 another question.

    18 MR. GREAVES: May I explain, please, Your

    19 Honour? If -- and I don't know whether this is the

    20 case in France or in Egypt, but it is certainly in

    21 England; it's something which does cause hostility. If

    22 he was killed because of that reason, it's not a reason

    23 that's connected with genocide.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I do not accept

    25 the question. The question was asked in the

  70. 1 examination-in-chief, and the witness answered that he

    2 thought that it was because Itric was allegedly

    3 suspected of having raped a young girl. What you can

    4 get from the witness now is only opinion and these are

    5 basically banal opinions.

    6 I think that raping a 7-year-old child, in

    7 every country of the world, is considered a very

    8 serious crime. It's not the witness saying that to

    9 you; it's the Judge. Please move to another question

    10 now.

    11 So you can think about that and limit

    12 yourself to what was part of the examination-in-chief,

    13 we're going to take a break, and I'll ask you to remain

    14 in the scope of the count of genocide and the scope of

    15 the examination-in-chief. Thank you.

    16 We're going to take a 15-minute break.

    17 --- Recess taken at 5.02 p.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The hearing

    20 will now resume. Have the accused brought in, please.

    21 Please be seated.

    22 [The accused entered court]

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves.

    24 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, yes.

    25 Q. Mr. H, I want to ask you now, please, about

  71. 1 the man you describe as Alija. Is this right: that,

    2 in fact, his full name is Novalija?

    3 A. Novalija is his exact name and Smajlovic is

    4 his last name.

    5 Q. I want to turn now to the account you have

    6 given of this man Ohro. Would you accept, please,

    7 Mr. H, that today is the first time that you've ever

    8 mentioned the existence of this person when dealing

    9 with the matters concerning Luka camp?

    10 A. No, in view of the fact that in one of my

    11 statements I mentioned that man, and I don't know why

    12 it was not recorded in my statement.

    13 Q. And as far as the incident where you claim to

    14 have seen Mr. Jelisic with a TV crew at Batkovici,

    15 again, as far as the two statements that you made are

    16 concerned, you never mentioned that incident at all.

    17 So, again, today is the first time that you've

    18 mentioned that matter. Do you accept that?

    19 A. I think when I was giving my statement in

    20 Tuzla, this was quite some time ago, I don't know who

    21 the investigators were, and they were saying that they

    22 were not investigating the camp at Batkovici, and that

    23 is probably why this statement was not included.

    24 Q. I want to turn now, please, to the list of

    25 people that you've been through with the court and with

  72. 1 the Prosecution. The first person on your list was

    2 somebody called Becirevic, otherwise known as Kibe?

    3 A. Yes. Yes.

    4 Q. The information you have was that he was

    5 killed at the barracks sometime around the 11th of May;

    6 is that right?

    7 A. These are stories, and I cannot give you the

    8 exact date when I heard this. At any rate, Kibe was

    9 killed.

    10 Q. And help me about this, please. Is it within

    11 your knowledge that he was involved in politics in

    12 Brcko or elsewhere?

    13 A. Sakib Becirevic, as far as I know, was not

    14 active. Mr. Hodzic was active, or Hadzic.

    15 Q. Can we please take them in turn, please, so

    16 we keep some order, mister --

    17 A. Please go ahead.

    18 Q. Was Mr. Becirevic -- did you know if he was a

    19 friend of Ibrahim Ramic?

    20 A. Butcher. Possibly. I don't know.

    21 Q. I'd like now to turn, if I may, please, to

    22 the second name that you mentioned, Midhat Bukvic.

    23 Your information was that he was killed at Luka. Do

    24 you know if he was involved in politics?

    25 A. No. Since his brother was a politician, I

  73. 1 doubt he was a politician too.

    2 Q. Stipo Glavocevic. You heard about his

    3 death. Can you tell us from whom you heard about

    4 that?

    5 A. From the prisoners in Luka.

    6 Q. I think he was Croatian by ethnic background;

    7 is that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. I think he was a policeman at one stage; is

    10 that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you know if he was involved in politics

    13 either before the war or during the war?

    14 A. I knew Stipo as a neighbour. We never had

    15 any other contact, so I didn't know anything about his

    16 political activity.

    17 Q. Sadik Jukic, which I think you'll find on the

    18 next page, Mr. H, a man in his 60s. You heard

    19 something about his death as having taken place in

    20 Mujkici; is that right?

    21 A. Yes. In his basement.

    22 Q. From whom did you hear that?

    23 A. From my lady wife. At the time, she was in

    24 our house while I was imprisoned.

    25 Q. And don't tell us your wife's name or

  74. 1 anything, but did she hear it from somebody directly

    2 who knew exactly what had happened?

    3 A. Yes, since he was not the only one who was

    4 killed. A woman was killed by Raymont, and he was

    5 too.

    6 Q. Can you put a date on when you think he was

    7 killed?

    8 A. Well, let me tell you, I left on the 13th of

    9 July. I went to Batkovici. Until the 5th of October,

    10 I didn't know a thing about my family either, and it

    11 was very hard. So I never even asked about this date

    12 of disappearance.

    13 Q. All right. Do you know if Sadik Jukic was

    14 involved in politics before the war?

    15 A. That's a man who's illiterate. He's a

    16 construction worker. He drove a vehicle with bricks,

    17 and concrete, and whatever. He had a family. I doubt

    18 he had any time to go into politics.

    19 Q. The next man, Mr. H, Jusuf Kapkovic, a man

    20 with a large family, disappeared on the 16th of June

    21 and has not been seen or heard of since. So apparently

    22 nobody can say what happened to him.

    23 A. No. No, there is no information about him,

    24 and he is listed as being missing, but nobody knows.

    25 Q. Again, Mr. H, do you know if he was involved

  75. 1 in politics before his disappearance?

    2 A. Since he had a large family, and in view of

    3 his economic situation, I doubt it. This doesn't have

    4 to be correct, but I don't think he was involved.

    5 Q. Next, please, two brothers, Katal, Hasim and

    6 Rasim, you think they were involved in sports. Would

    7 that be football?

    8 A. Yes, played in Jadinsvo and in

    9 Lokomotiva [phoen], the local club in Brcko.

    10 Q. And your information was that they were

    11 killed at Luka. From whom did you get that

    12 information?

    13 A. From a gentleman I found in Luka who had been

    14 beaten up; Mr. Bukvic, that is, and it was probably

    15 conveyed to him from someone else.

    16 Q. And he told us whilst he was still suffering

    17 from the effects of the beating, did he?

    18 A. Since Bukvic left Luka on the 14th or 15th, I

    19 think, there was time for us to have a chat every now

    20 and then.

    21 Q. The Katal brothers, were they involved in

    22 local politics? We have a description of them being

    23 involved as members of the local board.

    24 A. As for the political activity of the two of

    25 them, that, I don't know. I know they were sportsmen.

  76. 1 I often went to Rasim's house. I don't know. As I

    2 said, I'm not aware of any political activity of these

    3 two men.

    4 Q. Then we turn next, please, and I think it's

    5 over the page, Mr. H, about halfway down that page, he

    6 was obviously an extremely well-known personality.

    7 You've described him as a very prominent citizen, and

    8 according to his son, he was taken from Janja. Is that

    9 a village or an area of Brcko?

    10 A. Janja is a very small town near Bijelina,

    11 perhaps 11 or 12 kilometres from Bijelina, with a

    12 population of about 13.000 now. He was there at the

    13 weekend cottage of a colleague of his. His son, who

    14 was detained in Batkovici together with us, said that

    15 they were taken together, but this man came to

    16 Batkovici, and where the other was taken, that, I don't

    17 know.

    18 Q. When you describe him as a very prominent

    19 citizen, in what field? In what sphere was he

    20 prominent? What was the reason for his fame?

    21 A. I think he was politically active. I don't

    22 know which party he belonged to, but that's why people

    23 knew him. I knew him because he was not far away from

    24 me.

    25 Q. I think there were three people called

  77. 1 Pezerovic. Do you have those at the bottom of page 3,

    2 Mr. H?

    3 A. Yes. Yes.

    4 Q. Are they all related, those three, or are two

    5 of them related and one not related?

    6 A. The first two, Ibrahim and Sevko, are

    7 brothers, and Suljo Pezerovic lived in Mujkici, in

    8 Bukovac [phoen]. I don't know whether they're related,

    9 but the first two are brothers, Ibrahim and Sevko.

    10 Q. And the two brothers, did they live in Brcko

    11 or outside Brcko?

    12 A. They lived in Brcko, near the railway station

    13 and near the Lokomotiva football club stadium.

    14 Q. Again, your information is that they

    15 disappeared and nothing is known of their fate?

    16 A. Yes. Yes.

    17 Q. And the same in the case of Suljo, who was

    18 known to have been arrested and taken away but has not

    19 been seen since?

    20 A. They are mentioned in the statement, I

    21 think. In relation to this Suljo, he was wounded

    22 somewhere. He was brought to Luka in blue pyjamas.

    23 You have it there in the statement. After the 15th or

    24 16th, I don't know, he was taken away and he's never

    25 been seen since.

  78. 1 Q. Do you know if any of the Pezerovics were

    2 involved in politics?

    3 A. Since Ibrahim Pezerovic is a manual labourer,

    4 he worked in a factory, and his brother was a railway

    5 station worker, he was a cleaner, I doubt that they

    6 were active anywhere.

    7 Q. Next, Senad Pobric. The only information you

    8 have about him is him disappearing in early May.

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Again, do you know if he was involved in

    11 politics?

    12 A. That's a child, a young man, 25 or 26 at the

    13 time. He played football. I doubt he was interested

    14 in politics, but I don't know for sure. That is my

    15 assumption.

    16 Q. We have a date of birth of 1965, Mr. H, so he

    17 would have been in his late 20s in 1992. Would that be

    18 the person you know of?

    19 A. (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted).

    22 Q. Franjo Vugrindzic [phoen], you list something

    23 as having happened to him. What did you hear about

    24 him?

    25 A. I just heard that he was taken away. They

  79. 1 lived at Maraja, behind the morgue of the hospital. He

    2 was taken away and he never returned. I think that his

    3 wife is of Serb ethnicity.

    4 Q. Thank you, Mr. H. Could we now turn to the

    5 second of the two lists, Exhibit 13? I think you'll

    6 probably have that in front of you as well. It's just

    7 to your right-hand side there.

    8 A. We forgot one person on this first page.

    9 Kombic, I think. Well, never mind.

    10 Q. I'm sorry. On the first page of the -- what

    11 was the name you mentioned again? I'm sorry. Kombic.

    12 I do apologise. You're entirely right.

    13 A. Salik.

    14 Q. The information you had about him was a

    15 disappearance but nothing further known?

    16 A. Well, according to the information that we

    17 have or, rather, that I received, he disappeared

    18 together with Pobric, and there is another man who's

    19 not on the list. That was this new part of Brcko,

    20 Lozijono [phoen], whatever it was called. All of it is

    21 the same neighbourhood.

    22 Q. The second list, Mr. H. Ahmet Hodzic, better

    23 known as Papa --

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. -- you were aware of him having been killed,

  80. 1 but didn't know how. Would the description of him

    2 that's given here in English, "president of the local

    3 executive in Kolobara," would that be correct?

    4 A. I know that he was president of the local

    5 commune of Kolobara, but I don't know whether he was

    6 president of the local executive board as well.

    7 Q. Yes. And a member of the SDA?

    8 A. As I said, I do not know. I know that he was

    9 president of this local organisation, whatever it was

    10 called. I don't know whether he was a member.

    11 Possibly so.

    12 Q. Then the gentleman from whom you bought some

    13 land, Mr. Kaknjo, the same, he was someone who had made

    14 significant contributions to the SDA?

    15 A. According to the information that I have, I

    16 think he was politically active.

    17 Q. And the description that we've got of him

    18 here, "important member of the board of the Islamic

    19 community," would that accord with your information

    20 about him?

    21 A. The Islamic community is not a political

    22 organisation. The Islamic community is an organisation

    23 which deals exclusively with Muslim affairs. It is not

    24 politically active.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Answer to the

  81. 1 Judges, Witness H. You're answering the Judges. Thank

    2 you.

    3 Please proceed. Can we speed things up a

    4 little bit? Because I think you've gone longer than

    5 you said you would, but I would like you to finish

    6 under proper conditions.

    7 MR. GREAVES: I am drawing to a close, as

    8 Your Honour will understand as we go through this.

    9 Q. Mr. H, as far as the next name is concerned,

    10 Dr. Edhemovic, a very prominent man in the town; you

    11 would accept that?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. It describes him here as having no formal

    14 position in the SDA but an important associate of the

    15 party because of his influence in the town. Would that

    16 be a fair comment about him?

    17 A. Anything is possible.

    18 Q. Vasif Sulejmanovic, a gentleman who owned the

    19 television station in Brcko. You've described him as

    20 wearing a white arm band. Do you know what the

    21 significance of a white arm band was?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Next, the name of Zelenjakovic. You were

    24 aware of three brothers by that name; is that right?

    25 A. Yes.

  82. 1 Q. And were they involved in politics?

    2 A. I'm not aware of that.

    3 Q. Next, the name of Kevric, which I think

    4 you'll find on the final page at number 33. Again,

    5 known as a prominent citizen in Brcko?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you believe that he and the next man named

    8 on the list were killed at the same time and the same

    9 place?

    10 A. According to the persons from Srpska Varos,

    11 from that area, they were killed that night. I don't

    12 know. I know he worked at the railway station. I

    13 don't know his name.

    14 Q. As far as Mr. Muminovic is concerned, were

    15 you aware that his sons were involved in SDA politics

    16 and were members of the party?

    17 A. (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted).

    20 Q. Finally, Osman Vatic, who you believe had

    21 given money to the SDA. Was he also an SDA member of

    22 parliament?

    23 A. I never said that I believed he gave money.

    24 As we came into Luka, Mr. Jelisic said that he gave

    25 money. You do not have a statement of mine saying that

  83. 1 I believed that he gave money, and I cannot say whether

    2 he was a member or not. He was a respectable citizen.

    3 Possibly he belonged to a political party too.

    4 Q. I stand corrected about the information.

    5 Finally, Mr. H, I just want to go back

    6 briefly to the camp and ask you something I omitted to

    7 ask you earlier. Were you aware of someone working at

    8 the camp called Kole?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is this right: He was in command of the

    11 police unit at Luka throughout your time there?

    12 A. During those 15 days, and that is how long I

    13 stayed there, he was.

    14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    16 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you have any additional

    17 questions?

    18 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I do not have any

    19 additional questions.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad?

    21 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    22 Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Mr. H. We have

    24 to call you Witness H. Excuse me.

    25 Perhaps you can clarify just two points for

  84. 1 me. I noticed first, and this is just a minor

    2 question, that when you mentioned that some people were

    3 killed or disappeared, you used several different

    4 descriptions. For some people, you would say that

    5 there is no trace of them; and for other people, you

    6 would say that they are no longer among the living; and

    7 for some people, you would say that they had been

    8 killed. I noticed some losses in what you said. Other

    9 people, you said, yes, they were killed, one was killed

    10 in front of his house; another was, I think, killed in

    11 the same hangar as you. This was very clear. But

    12 others, one of them, you said, "I heard that he was

    13 killed." That was also clear.

    14 But when you said that they were not among

    15 the living, what does this mean? How do you know?

    16 Does that mean that they disappeared and nobody knows

    17 where they are or that it has been proved that they are

    18 killed? Perhaps you can just clarify this, if you

    19 can. I can give you the names even.

    20 A. No, I don't need names really. (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted). On the basis of information, I

    23 believe that the names I mentioned when I said that all

    24 trace is lost, I mean I think I'm right. However,

    25 "killed," "missing," I think to our minds, it is the

  85. 1 same. They are not among the living. They are no

    2 longer alive.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: So this is now the general idea,

    4 that those who are missing, as you said, are not among

    5 the living.

    6 A. These are assumptions only, but I have never

    7 called, and the war ended in 1995, you know.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: And they are legally treated as

    9 not living any more? Legally, do you know that? Their

    10 wives can get married and that sort of thing?

    11 A. Well, they are getting married, so this is

    12 not a problem.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Another more disturbing

    14 question: You mentioned that some people were being

    15 considered as snipers. Mr. Novalija Smajlovic, 70

    16 years old, I think, or more, was called a sniper and

    17 was beaten to death. I think Mr. Muminovic was

    18 considered that he was financing the SDA and then

    19 treated accordingly. Mr. Stjepan Itric was accused of

    20 raping a 7-year-old girl and then beaten to death also,

    21 or at least what you said: is not any more among the

    22 living.

    23 Were these accusations just distributed on

    24 the people, each one being called something, as if when

    25 you call somebody Mr. John or Mr. Robert, or there was

  86. 1 a legal inquiry and some kind of legal sentence,

    2 putting them to prison, sending them to prison, or even

    3 the death sentence? Was this some kind of legal

    4 process or just, at random, calling everybody whatever

    5 you like and then treating them accordingly? In your

    6 view, what was happening exactly?

    7 A. Let me tell you, there were no laws. People

    8 who were killed or who were brought in were

    9 interrogated very seldom. I already mentioned about

    10 Itric, that that same day, he was brought in and

    11 battered.

    12 I should like to mention something. You

    13 mentioned Mr. Muminovic, that he financed or that I

    14 said something to that effect. I did not quite get the

    15 question. Could you repeat it, please?

    16 JUDGE RIAD: I heard that Muminovic was

    17 accused of giving money to the SDA.

    18 A. I did not say that.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: It was just an example, anyhow.

    20 Someone was giving money and was being punished for

    21 that. So these punishments were not based on any legal

    22 basis?

    23 A. No. No.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: What were they based on?

    25 A. It is really hard to say. I can say that I

  87. 1 was brought from a hospital bed, with eight other

    2 patients from that same hospital, and they did not call

    3 any names; they simply said, "If you're a Bosniak, you

    4 are taken in."

    5 So that was the procedure, but it had nothing

    6 to do with law. It was not a lawful procedure; it was

    7 a physical procedure.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: Some were, as you mentioned,

    9 spared; and some were, as you said, did not survive.

    10 Was there some kind of selection, selecting somebody

    11 and then letting someone else get away?

    12 A. Anything is possible. They also had some

    13 connections or maybe some friends, and they survived,

    14 and I'm probably one of those.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: I'm happy you are one of those.

    16 Thank you.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [No interpretation]

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. President.

    19 Witness H, good afternoon. I also have a few

    20 questions to ask.

    21 When we speak about Mr. Itric, I think that

    22 you left your house on the 4th of May, 1992. Is that

    23 correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And Mr. Itric, do you know

  88. 1 when it was that he left his house?

    2 A. I believe it was on the 13th of May.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, you left your

    4 house before he did because you had to go to the

    5 hospital?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Before leaving your house

    8 to go to the hospital, (redacted)

    9 (redacted), in the community in your village, were

    10 there any accusations brought against Mr. Itric,

    11 accusations of his having raped a young girl?

    12 A. No. He was a very quiet man. I did say in a

    13 statement that we never even saw him with a female,

    14 with a woman.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Is it possible that that

    16 could happen after you left the hospital and his

    17 arrest, when he was taken to the Luka camp?

    18 A. I doubt it really.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Then when at the Luka camp

    20 you heard that accusation, were there other neighbours

    21 of Mr. Itric there, there at the Luka camp?

    22 Excuse me. In the Luka camp, were there

    23 other individuals besides yourself who knew Mr. Itric?

    24 A. Yes. There was his next-door neighbour,

    25 Suljo Hasimbasic. There was his father brought, I

  89. 1 don't know on what date. I believe on the 18th is when

    2 he was exchanged.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: When faced with this

    4 accusation, how did the people who knew Mr. Itric

    5 react?

    6 A. At that time, when he was brought in,

    7 Hasimbasic and his father were not there, because he

    8 had gone out to buy cigarettes for his father. So they

    9 couldn't react.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And you, how did you

    11 react?

    12 A. We were not allowed even to look. We all had

    13 to keep our heads down and look at the floor. There

    14 was -- no reaction would be called for, because I could

    15 have been also beaten or killed for reacting.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But within yourself, do you

    17 think that the accusation was valid or not valid?

    18 A. Because I know the man, as I already

    19 explained, I think it is false.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And the other accusation

    21 that you spoke about when you spoke about an old man

    22 who was 82 years old and who was accused of having been

    23 a sniper, was he in physical condition in order to go

    24 fight?

    25 A. No.

  90. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: That is, was he in good

    2 health?

    3 A. He was a man who seemed to be in a very bad

    4 shape, and he also wore glasses. I do not think his

    5 sight was even all that good. Therefore, I doubt it.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Therefore, there were many

    7 accusations against several people.

    8 A. Yes.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: There is something else I

    10 would like to know. You recognised, on the two lists,

    11 at least 20 people, not counting the people whose name

    12 appears on both. Is there something in common among

    13 all of these people? Could one find any kind of common

    14 denominator for all those people?

    15 A. They're all people from different parts of

    16 the town. I doubt, or, rather, I should say that they

    17 have nothing in common.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I don't want to lead my

    19 questions. You recognised at least 20 people. Among

    20 the 20 people whom you recognised on both lists, did

    21 any of them have a common characteristic to all of

    22 them?

    23 A. I don't think so.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Could you construct any

    25 kind of sentence saying all of those people were

  91. 1 something? Let me go further than that. Of what

    2 ethnic group were these people?

    3 A. They were all Bosniaks.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And what was their

    5 religion?

    6 A. Muslims. Excuse me, except for Stipo

    7 Glavocevic and Itric.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes. We know that they

    9 were Croats. You spoke about people who were arrested

    10 and then released on the same day. Do you remember

    11 that as those people who were arrested and released the

    12 same day?

    13 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Who were they? Were they

    15 Muslims or were they members of another religion?

    16 A. I know only Zoran, who came from a mixed

    17 marriage. The priest, the orthodox priest in Brcko,

    18 came and took him away the same day. All the rest were

    19 Muslim or Bosniaks.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You spoke about the subject

    21 of your interrogation when you answered Mr. Greaves's

    22 questions. You mentioned a whole series of people

    23 about whom he wanted information. As regards those

    24 people you spoke about during your interrogations, were

    25 they also Muslims or were they not?

  92. 1 A. Those who interrogated or --

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The people who conducted

    3 the interrogation asked you information about certain

    4 people. You mentioned some of them in your answer to

    5 Mr. Greaves's questions. Who were those people who

    6 wanted to find out information?

    7 A. They were mostly interested in people who

    8 were Bosniaks.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Another question. As

    10 regards the discussion around 11th -- or 13th of May,

    11 when you gave your answer to Mr. Greaves, you spoke

    12 about statements that were given to the Bosnian

    13 authorities, I believe. What type of authorities were

    14 they? Were they administrative, or military, or

    15 judicial authorities? What type of authorities?

    16 A. In my first statement, it was given to

    17 administrative authorities; that is, a wartime

    18 journalist, Suad Alagic, I believe his name was, was

    19 the one who took my first statement.

    20 My second statement I gave to the

    21 investigators, and I believe it was in 1994, 1995. I

    22 can't remember.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: When you showed us your

    24 laissez passer, there were also authorities who issued

    25 it. Who were those authorities?

  93. 1 A. I already said it. I was issued that pass in

    2 the office in which Mr. Korenovic and Mr. Tesic

    3 worked. Who signed that pass, I don't know, but

    4 they -- those were the authorities.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But mention was made of the

    6 authorities. In the upper left-hand corner, you saw

    7 there were five lines. Which authorities were

    8 mentioned there? Were these also Bosnian authorities?

    9 A. No. Those were Serb authorities or, as far

    10 as I could read it out, it was the Serb public security

    11 station in the Serb Autonomous Province of Semberija.

    12 So those were the Serb authorities.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But they were Bosnian

    14 Serbs?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Something else with which

    17 I'll conclude. In your summary, you mention Kolar;

    18 that is, someone who went by the name of Kolar. When

    19 you answered Mr. Greaves about Mr. Kolar, were Kole and

    20 Kolar the same people or are they different people?

    21 A. Kolar, his surname is Smajlovic. We called

    22 him Kolar because he had a horse and a cart, and that

    23 is how he earned his livelihood, and Mr. Kole is a

    24 Serb, and they are not related in any way.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So these are two different

  94. 1 people. I thought that I -- that this was the first

    2 time today that you spoke about Kole, because

    3 Mr. Greaves mentioned the fact that you had never

    4 referred, in your previous statements, to him, that

    5 this was the first time that you mentioned Kole. Is

    6 that correct, "Yes" or "No"?

    7 A. Well, it was not in the statement, so I

    8 suppose I could not -- I could not have not mentioned

    9 him, because I knew Kole personally. I also knew his

    10 mother. Because of that --

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Witness H, for

    12 interrupting you. Mr. Greaves, you want to say

    13 something?

    14 MR. GREAVES: It was concerning the man Ohro,

    15 not Kole, that I suggested that he'd not mentioned him

    16 before, a man called Ohro, not Kole.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, in any case, but

    18 I go back to my question.

    19 Why is it only today that you spoke for the

    20 first time about that person?

    21 A. I just said so now. Invariably, in my

    22 statements, I spoke about Mr. Kole, because Mr. Kole

    23 was some kind of a police chief down there in Luka. I

    24 don't know how many people there were with regard to

    25 the police administration. I don't know what the

  95. 1 reason was why he was not included in the record. That

    2 I don't know. Whether it was that unimportant or not,

    3 I don't know.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Really my last question

    5 now. When you signed your statements to the Bosnian

    6 authorities, did those people give you the statements

    7 so you could read them and ask you whether you agreed

    8 before you signed, or how did things occur?

    9 A. I think it was the day after the day I was

    10 released from Batkovici. As I say, this statement was

    11 taken by a journalist and nothing was given to us to

    12 read.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Witness H.

    14 Thank you very much.

    15 Thank you, Mr. President. Excuse me for

    16 having taken so much time.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Given the very

    18 complete nature of your nature, I can spare the witness

    19 my own questions because they were already answered.

    20 I will take advantage of this time -- I'll

    21 give you the floor, Mr. Tochilovsky.

    22 I would like the registrar to tell us whether

    23 there are any problems with the exhibits.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The statements of Witness H

    25 are reference numbered 28, 28A for the French version

  96. 1 and 28B for the B/C/S version. And the laissez passer,

    2 which was presented, will have the number D7, and this

    3 is a confidential exhibit.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to

    5 my colleagues and ask whether we can accept as an

    6 exhibit the statements made before the Tuzla

    7 authorities so that the Judges try to see if there is

    8 an overarching consistency in them.

    9 Mr. Tochilovsky?

    10 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: First of all, if the

    11 statement given to Bosnian authorities is accepted as

    12 an exhibit, we would like a statement given to the

    13 Office of the Prosecutor also to be admitted into

    14 evidence as an exhibit, but I would like --

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves?

    16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I've been very

    17 careful to put it to him in two ways: one to refresh

    18 his memory; and, two, alternatively to ask him not an

    19 inconsistency, but why he hadn't mentioned something

    20 before. That is not an exercise which requires Your

    21 Honour to see the statement, in my submission.

    22 The first point is simply to clarify with the

    23 witness whether he has perhaps mistaken the dates, and

    24 the second matter is perfectly simple. It's accepted

    25 he didn't say it and he's not -- he's given an

  97. 1 explanation as to why he didn't mention it. So it

    2 doesn't require Your Honour to have the two statements

    3 to make any comparison.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges

    5 maintain their decision because the coherence of

    6 various statements is really brought into question

    7 rather seriously, and you -- you have less pointed at

    8 these differences in the case of this witness, but the

    9 Judges also believe that there may be contradictions

    10 between the statements, and it is quite legitimate to

    11 ask them and the Judges, who will have to decide at

    12 some point about them.

    13 Yes, Mr. Tochilovsky, you have the floor.

    14 You have something to raise?

    15 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Just one issue. The

    16 Defence mentioned to the witness, and then reiterated

    17 again, that the witness never mentioned the name "Ohro"

    18 in his previous statements, and I believe if this is

    19 the Defence position, it's not correct, because on

    20 page 7 of the statement given to the Office of the

    21 Prosecutor, there is a paragraph on Ohro where the

    22 witness says: "A detainee by the name 'Ohro' beat the

    23 detainees at Luka." It is on page 7 in the English

    24 translation. I believe it is also in French and in

    25 Bosnian. Thank you.

  98. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [No interpretation]

    2 MR. GREAVES: I accept that's what it says.

    3 Of course, he's given rather more information than

    4 simply that bland statement.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    6 Thank you. Before we adjourn for the day, I should

    7 like to ask the Prosecution for these lists.

    8 Were these lists established on the basis of

    9 all the testimonies, and thus you drew up these lists

    10 and tried to finalise them? Could you please explain

    11 how you did them? What was the procedure? I'm really

    12 sorry. Mr. Nice, it is you.

    13 MR. NICE: The two lists are different lists

    14 entirely. One came from Bosnian authorities and is a

    15 document that a witness coming next week, the Chief of

    16 Prosecution, John Ralston, will deal with, and that

    17 purported to be a list dealing with bodies in mass

    18 graves, and giving an account --

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Which one?

    20 MR. NICE: The other list, list 39, is a list

    21 produced by a witness, whom I shan't name at the

    22 moment, but is simply a list of prominent Muslims.

    23 So one is more directly identified as a list

    24 of those said to be dead, although the people saying

    25 they're dead are the Serbian authorities,

  99. 1 contemporaneously giving an account of their death and

    2 some kind of explanation for their death, but

    3 nevertheless, giving an account of the bodies in the

    4 grave. The other is a list of prominent Muslims.

    5 They're different lists, but certainly we'll

    6 have the best available evidence of those lists, and

    7 each of them, from witnesses within the next week. I

    8 hope that helps.

    9 The Tribunal will remember that, of course,

    10 it was the Defence who indicated that they were going

    11 to ask questions --

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

    13 MR. NICE: -- about these lists that led to

    14 my attempting to save time by asking them about the

    15 questions first.

    16 While I'm on my feet, and I know it's late,

    17 but may I simply mention, because it will help, two

    18 short administrative matters? Would that be possible?

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Not yet, but I

    20 should like to go into private session, if possible,

    21 before we proceed.

    22 [Private session]

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  100. 1












    13 pages 990-1002 redacted private session










    23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    24 6.42 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

    25 the 7th day of September, 1999, at

  1. 1 10.00 a.m.