1. 1 Tuesday, 7th September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 10.06 a.m.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    6 seated. Mr. Usher, please have the accused brought

    7 in.

    8 [The accused entered court]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do the

    10 interpreters hear me?

    11 Good morning to Prosecution and to Defence

    12 counsel, to the accused, of course, and good morning to

    13 the witness who has just come in. We're going to call

    14 him Witness I.

    15 I ask you to remain standing for as long as

    16 it takes you to take an oath according to the formula

    17 which is being given to you by the usher. Please

    18 proceed.

    19 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    21 truth.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You may now be

    23 seated. You have come to The Hague -- we're going to

    24 call you Witness I because you are being covered by

    25 protective measures that you requested, and this

  2. 1 explains why you are being positioned the way you are.

    2 First of all, you're going to hear the

    3 questions asked by the Prosecutor because you are a

    4 Prosecution witness. Then Defence counsel will ask you

    5 questions; he's on your left. Mr. Goran Jelisic is the

    6 accused. Then if the Judges wish to, they will ask you

    7 the questions they consider appropriate.

    8 Let me remind you that when you answer, turn

    9 to the Judges. The questions are asked from one side

    10 or the other, but when you give your answer, turn and

    11 face the Judges when you speak.

    12 The Prosecution has the floor.

    13 Mr. Tochilovsky?

    14 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: May I have, usher,

    15 assistance in placing the summary of the witness

    16 statements in front of the him?

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The

    18 witness must identify his name without pronouncing it,

    19 to look at the piece of paper given to him.

    20 Look at the piece of paper and check to see

    21 that this is your name. If it is, please nod but do

    22 not say your name.

    23 THE WITNESS: [Indicating]

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now

    25 please answer the Prosecutor's questions.


    2 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    3 Q. Witness I, is the summary before you the

    4 document which you had the opportunity to read and

    5 recognise as a correct summary of your statements?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Witness I, I would like to ask you first some

    8 questions on events before you were taken to Luka. (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Were you present when the former mayor of

    13 Brcko, Mustafa Ramic, made an address to the citizens

    14 of Brcko?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Do you remember the date when the address was

    17 made?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What was that address about?

    20 A. Should I tell you?

    21 Q. Just in general, very shortly, what was that

    22 about?

    23 A. Mayor Ramic addressed the citizens of Brcko

    24 through the local TV station (redacted). He asked

    25 them to have tensions eased and to find, through

  4. 1 peaceful democratic means, the best solution for the

    2 further coexistence of the citizens of Brcko.

    3 Q. Witness I, were you detained on May 4, 1992?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Who detained you?

    6 A. I was detained by paramilitary formations or,

    7 rather, the Serb forces that had occupied our town in

    8 those days.

    9 Q. Were there any other people who were detained

    10 with you that day?

    11 A. Yes. Yes.

    12 Q. What was their ethnicity?

    13 A. Most of them were Bosniaks, Muslims, and

    14 there were a few Croats as well. Also, there were

    15 people coming from mixed marriages.

    16 Q. Were you then and other people from your

    17 neighbourhood moved to the medical centre?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Were you then subsequently taken to the

    20 mosque?

    21 A. Yes. Yes.

    22 Q. How many people were taken with you to the

    23 mosque?

    24 A. In half of the mosque there were between 80

    25 and 90 of us.

  5. 1 Q. What ethnicity were those detainees?

    2 A. Well, I said that most were Muslims,

    3 Bosniaks. There were a few Croats and there were

    4 people coming from mixed marriages, for example, where

    5 the mother was a Serb and the father a Croat, or, for

    6 example, there was a man who was also named Goran who

    7 was with us in the mosque. I don't know what his

    8 ethnicity was.

    9 Q. Were you interrogated in the mosque?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. How were you treated during those

    12 interrogations?

    13 A. They were angry with us. Some would get

    14 beaten up. They insulted us. They said that we should

    15 all be shot dead, that only five per cent of us should

    16 be allowed to live. Then somebody else would walk in

    17 and say that we should not worry at all, that they were

    18 only interested in the Green Berets, members of the

    19 SDA, those who had weapons.

    20 Q. Did you provide the interrogators with any

    21 names?

    22 A. I don't know what you mean.

    23 Q. Did you give the interrogators names of any

    24 people you knew?

    25 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, I did. I was forced to do

  6. 1 so.

    2 Q. So you provided the interrogators with those

    3 names on which basis? What were the allegations about

    4 those people?

    5 A. Well, they told me or, rather, they first

    6 gave me a piece of paper and a pencil. When they were

    7 interrogating me, they asked me to write down the names

    8 of those people in Brcko whom I knew to have weapons.

    9 Q. And you gave the names of people who were in

    10 possession of weapons or hunting weapons? What kind of

    11 weapons?

    12 A. At that moment, since I was threatened to be

    13 killed if I did not write down some names, I thought of

    14 writing down the names of those people for whom I was

    15 100 per cent sure that they had weapons.

    16 Q. Do you know what happened to those people

    17 afterwards?

    18 A. Unfortunately -- I don't know it was because

    19 I wrote down their names -- out of the four men whose

    20 names I wrote down, two were killed.

    21 Q. What were the names of those two?

    22 A. (redacted). His

    23 name was Ahmed Fatic. The other one was called Hazim

    24 Vilic.

    25 Q. How old were those people?

  7. 1 A. Ahmed Fatic, (redacted)

    2 (redacted), was about 71 or 72. Perhaps he was even

    3 older than that.

    4 The other one, Hazim Vilic, was a bit younger

    5 than him. He was about 55 perhaps.

    6 Q. When were you transferred to Luka camp?

    7 A. I was transferred to the Luka camp from the

    8 barracks, where I was together with the others. We

    9 came from all local communes in the town, all of us who

    10 were in the barracks, and we were brought in on the 8th

    11 of May, 1992.

    12 Q. Did you see a man by the name of Goran

    13 Jelisic when you arrived to the camp?

    14 A. Yes, I did.

    15 Q. Can you describe the man? What did he look

    16 like?

    17 A. He was thin, taller than myself. He wore a

    18 police uniform, a summer police uniform of the former

    19 police. On one hand he had a bandage; I don't know if

    20 it was his right hand or left hand. When I first saw

    21 him, he brought in a plastic box and asked us to leave

    22 our personal belongings.

    23 Q. Did he introduce himself?

    24 A. When he entered the second time, of course,

    25 after having taken away this box with our personal

  8. 1 belongings, and when he entered the second time, he

    2 walked in with a baton. It was a black rubber baton,

    3 perhaps one metre long. He hit it on the ground in

    4 order to call us to attention, and when we all looked

    5 in the direction where he stood, he said, "I'm the Serb

    6 Adolf," and he said his name.

    7 Q. Was there any objection from any guard who

    8 was present there to what Goran requested of you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. What happened? What kind of objections? Who

    11 did it?

    12 A. While Goran was asking us to put our personal

    13 belongings into this box, in the hangar, there was a

    14 man --

    15 Q. I'm sorry. The translation doesn't follow.

    16 Maybe you can speak a bit slower.

    17 THE INTERPRETER: No, the witness is speaking

    18 slowly enough.

    19 A. There was a policeman there who stood in a

    20 camouflage uniform with a white belt, and at one point

    21 in time, he addressed Goran. He said, "Why were you

    22 taking their personal belongings?" He said this

    23 belonged to us and that it belonged to us.


    25 Q. What was Goran's reaction to that?

  9. 1 A. He said, "Have you handed them over to me?"

    2 That policeman said that he was responsible for our

    3 fate. Goran angrily left the hangar and went towards

    4 the administrative building. He came back and said to

    5 this policeman that there was a telephone call for

    6 him. This policeman never returned to guard us. They

    7 brought another soldier in an olive-grey uniform, and

    8 he put a machine gun in front of us. He had long hair;

    9 he was thin.

    10 Q. Witness I, can you tell the Court what you

    11 know about the two brothers from Zvornik? What

    12 happened to them, very shortly?

    13 A. Among the personal belongings that we handed

    14 over to Goran Jelisic, there were our personal IDs as

    15 well; that is to say, our IDs, our driver's licenses,

    16 our passports, our money, and other valuables.

    17 When Goran came back afterwards, he was

    18 carrying something, I don't know if it was IDs, but at

    19 any rate, he had some documents. Then he said to us,

    20 "Now you are going to see how proven Green Berets are

    21 going to be treated." They came from Zvornik to fight

    22 at the Brcko front. He called out their names, he

    23 called out their names and surnames and said, "Get out,

    24 you Green Berets." They were twin brothers and they

    25 looked alike. They even wore the same clothes and

  10. 1 footwear. Goran handed over one of them to Sok, Enver

    2 Sok, and Enver took one of the brothers into the

    3 premises of the administrative building.

    4 As for the other brother, Goran started

    5 beating him at the entrance to the hangar. The hangar

    6 door was ajar, and I was close to that door. One could

    7 see Goran beating one of the brothers with the baton.

    8 He was shouting at him, cursing him. The man was

    9 begging him, saying that he was not guilty of anything

    10 and that he should not beat him for nothing. All who

    11 were present in the hangar could hear that. The blows

    12 were strong and they resounded. There was silence.

    13 One could only hear Goran and the man whom he was

    14 beating up. That went on for about 10 or 15 minutes.

    15 After that, two shots rang out.

    16 Q. Witness I, do you remember whether Sok asked

    17 Jelisic what to do with the other brother?

    18 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember. As Goran was

    19 coming back from the place from which he had picked up

    20 one of the brothers, he had in his hands a pistol, a

    21 Scorpio with a silencer, black. At that moment, Enver

    22 came out of the office and had with him the other

    23 brother, and he said to Goran, "And what am I to do

    24 with him?" Goran laughed and said, "Take him to the

    25 other one. They now need yet another one to play

  11. 1 poker."

    2 Q. What happened to that other brother?

    3 A. Enver took him in the direction of the place

    4 where his brother was lying down. They went, Enver on

    5 his left-hand side and the other brother on his

    6 right-hand side, and they were walking towards each

    7 other.

    8 As they arrived two or three metres or so

    9 from the body of his brother, from where the body of

    10 his brother was lying, Sok stopped for a while and this

    11 brother went on. With his right hand, he lifted the

    12 pistol with the silencer and fired, and I don't know

    13 exactly where it was first, in the stomach and then at

    14 the back of his head or the other way around.

    15 Q. Witness I, do you remember a man by the name

    16 of Jasce in Luka?

    17 A. Yes, I remember.

    18 Q. Can you tell the Court shortly what you know

    19 about his fate? What happened to him in the camp?

    20 A. I knew Jasce even before he was brought to

    21 Luka. However, in Luka, as I cued for the pass with

    22 the rest of the group of 30 or so of my townsmen, I saw

    23 them taking out Jasce. They took him out and led him

    24 into the administrative building. They tortured him

    25 there, ill-treated him, abused him verbally. Of

  12. 1 course, I could hear it all because the doors of these

    2 offices were open, and they kept him there for some

    3 time.

    4 After that, when they took him out through

    5 the door, that is, in front of the door, one could see

    6 marks of harassment, that is, torture on him. His face

    7 was bloody, his hair was dishevelled, and he looked

    8 dazed.

    9 Q. Witness I, when you refer to "them", "they"

    10 took him to the office building, who took him to the

    11 office building from the hangar?

    12 A. I mean Ranko Cesic.

    13 Q. Before Jasce was taken from the office

    14 building in that condition as you described, did Ranko

    15 Cesic ask anything of Goran Jelisic?

    16 A. Yes. He asked Goran and Enver, "Which one of

    17 you will take him over?"

    18 Q. What was the response? Who responded to him

    19 and what?

    20 A. Goran said, "Give him to me," and, "He needs

    21 to load his gun again anyway."

    22 Q. What happened then to Jasce?

    23 A. They took him away also in the direction of

    24 those two executed brothers, and there with two shots

    25 at the back of his head and stomach. They also

  13. 1 executed Jasce.

    2 Q. Was there a man by the name of Danijel in the

    3 camp?

    4 A. Yes, he was, but only for a short period of

    5 time. Danijel was brought -- I can't remember exactly

    6 who it was that brought him, but they took him in the

    7 direction leading from the main gate to the place where

    8 those three had been executed.

    9 Around me were people who had also been

    10 issued passes. We were standing in a very compact

    11 group so that it was more difficult for me to see what

    12 was going on. I need to point out that very near me,

    13 in my immediate vicinity, my brother, my elder brother,

    14 was also standing, and he kept saying to me all the

    15 time, "Don't look in that direction," and very angrily

    16 too. With his body he shielded me. He screened me

    17 from anything that I could see. I need to point out

    18 that. Otherwise, I and all the rest of us could not

    19 look directly but, rather, we had been ordered to keep

    20 our heads down. However, on the sly, as much as we

    21 could, we looked and we tried to see that.

    22 Q. So when you mentioned that Danijel was taken

    23 and they took him to the place of execution, who took

    24 him to that place?

    25 A. Who took him? Goran and Enver Sok took him


  14. 1 away.

    2 Q. Then what happened to this man when they

    3 approached the place of execution?

    4 A. You mean Danijel. We heard two shots, and he

    5 stayed lying down at the place where the others had

    6 also been killed.

    7 I only need to say one thing. After they

    8 would kill somebody, they would, every time, ask for

    9 volunteers to take away the body. Some who volunteered

    10 to take them away were not afraid and they

    11 volunteered. Some were designated by Goran himself.

    12 He would merely point with his hand, "You and you, take

    13 this one away."

    14 So when Jasce was executed, Goran indicated

    15 with his hand a man who was standing near the car. He

    16 was a Bosniak, a Muslim, and he was standing right next

    17 to the car. Goran called him out personally to take

    18 the body away. (redacted).

    19 Incidentally, he is an invalid. He has trouble with

    20 one leg. So he asked Goran, because he was an invalid

    21 and because he dare not look at that man, to pick out

    22 somebody else.

    23 However, two men volunteered and (redacted)

    24 (redacted). They picked up the

    25 body, Jasce's body, and took it behind the hangar down

  15. 1 the street, and they left it there, I believe, on the

    2 right-hand side.

    3 I heard later that there was a heap there, a

    4 heap of dead bodies.

    5 Q. Thank you, Witness I. Were you rearrested

    6 after you were released from Luka camp?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Where were you detained after you were

    9 rearrested?

    10 A. When I was issued a pass from Luka, my

    11 brother and I thought that it would be dangerous to go

    12 back to our neighbourhood community, and so we went to

    13 our friends (redacted), and we stayed at our

    14 friends' until the 14th of July.

    15 Then at 2.00 in the morning, I and other

    16 people from surrounding buildings were loaded onto the

    17 buses of the town transport and deported to the camp at

    18 Batkovic.

    19 Q. Did you see Goran Jelisic when you were in

    20 Batkovic?

    21 A. Yes, but not when we arrived right away.

    22 There were some other people there. Goran was at Luka

    23 still, presumably. However, after perhaps a month or

    24 two, one day in the afternoon hours, Goran arrived at

    25 the camp at Batkovic. He was wearing a civilian

  16. 1 uniform, nicely dressed. Outside the camp, that is,

    2 beyond the wire, there was a girl, a young woman,

    3 waiting for him.

    4 Around him -- about ten inmates gathered

    5 around him, and he talked to them. He was even

    6 inquiring if that dark one they used to call Ohro was

    7 there. Goran had come, planning to take two from the

    8 Batkovic camp, two inmates, I mean, to take them with

    9 him, two inmates who had also been at Luka. I think

    10 that the name of one was Muta, rather, the nickname of

    11 one was Muta. I, at that moment, was about a metre and

    12 half or two away from him. He also made some jokes on

    13 that occasion, naturally, as he knew some that he used

    14 to see at Luka before.

    15 So he waited for the two that he had come for

    16 to take some of their personal effects, and he took

    17 them away in all likelihood.

    18 Afterwards, after I left the camp, I heard

    19 that he needed then somebody who had been to the Luka

    20 camp to deny the news in the media about how Luka was a

    21 camp and that Goran was involved in executions.

    22 I also heard later that those men were

    23 forced, were coerced into making such statements to

    24 media, as were asked from them by Goran.

    25 Q. So you just mentioned the name Ohro. Goran

  17. 1 was looking for Ohro to take him with Goran for that

    2 purpose?

    3 A. I only need to say that he did not ask to

    4 take Ohro with him. He asked for the other two. But

    5 he asked about Ohro, by the way, because he used to be

    6 his assistant there.

    7 Q. Thank you, Witness I. Now I have some

    8 questions on the lists.

    9 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: May I have the assistance

    10 of the usher?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First of all,

    12 Mr. Tochilovsky, I'd like to have you state clearly

    13 what murders were acknowledged by the accused to which

    14 he pleaded guilty, that is, Count 14 and 15, I

    15 believe. Perhaps 16 and 17 as well. Are there any

    16 others in the indictment?

    17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honour, the witness,

    18 as well as other witnesses, they are asked about those

    19 killings to which Goran Jelisic pleaded guilty to, but

    20 the main purpose of these questions we ask, and this

    21 witness was asked to explain that very shortly, because

    22 we are interested not whether the facts took place

    23 because Goran Jelisic pleaded guilty to that, but we're

    24 interested in how the killings were committed, what

    25 Goran Jelisic's behaviour was, what did he say, because

  18. 1 all these facts are relevant to Count 1.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    3 That's what I wanted you to clarify. The Judges, as

    4 you know, want these proceedings to be very

    5 circumscribed to genocide.

    6 All right. Mr. Tochilovsky, you may

    7 proceed.


    9 Q. First, Exhibit number 12. You were shown

    10 this list before, and can you tell us what you know,

    11 very shortly, whether you know what happened to the

    12 person or not, and if you know, whether you saw an

    13 incident or not?

    14 Sakib Becirevic, on page 1. Do you know his

    15 fate?

    16 A. His fate?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. I heard about it after I left the Batkovic

    19 camp. I heard it from people who were detained in the

    20 gymnasium partizan at the time when Sakib was

    21 executed.

    22 Q. On the second page, there is the name Ahmed

    23 Hodzic, on page 2.

    24 A. I need to correct you. It is Ahmet Hodzic.

    25 (redacted). Otherwise, they used to

  19. 1 call him Papa. He, together with my family, were hid

    2 in the same cellar.

    3 We came out together. We were together in

    4 the Wooden Mosque at Kolobara. There they singled him

    5 out and took him to the health centre. At the health

    6 centre he was tortured and there they interrogated him.

    7 Q. That's what you heard from others; is that

    8 correct?

    9 A. Yes. Yes.

    10 Q. On page 3 there is the name Fadil Mujic.

    11 Very shortly, do you know what happened to this person,

    12 Fadil Mujic?

    13 A. (redacted)

    14 (redacted). He was also at the mosque

    15 with me and was subsequently transferred to the

    16 barracks with me, and from the barracks to Luka. He

    17 stayed behind after I left Luka, and from people who

    18 were with him, I heard that one evening Fadil was

    19 called out and taken away and never been brought back.

    20 Q. The next name is Galib Muranjkovic. Do you

    21 know what happened to this person?

    22 A. (redacted).

    23 He thought that he would be saved if he went from Brcko

    24 to Janja. However, I also heard that he was killed

    25 there.

  20. 1 Q. The next name is Mirsad Pasalic. Witness I,

    2 I would like you not to mention if you find any

    3 relatives or close neighbours, not to mention the fact

    4 because it will identify you. Just tell the Court what

    5 you know, if anything, about the person I ask you.

    6 Do you know anything about Mirsad Pasalic,

    7 what happened to him?

    8 A. (redacted)

    9 (redacted). I heard that he was taken off

    10 a bus when he was supposed to be transferred to Brezovo

    11 Polje and that he was killed as soon as he was taken

    12 off the bus. That's what I heard.

    13 Q. On page 4, there is the name Mithat

    14 Sabanovic.

    15 A. (redacted)

    16 (redacted). He was killed at his home, in his yard.

    17 Q. The next name is Kemal Sulejmanovic.

    18 A. Kemal Sulejmanovic, that is the brother of

    19 Vasif Sulejmanovic. He was killed at the Laser

    20 company. That's what I heard from people who were

    21 brought from Laser to Luka.

    22 Q. The next name is Osman Suljic.

    23 A. Osman Suljic, son of Enver Suljic, (redacted)

    24 (redacted). He was born in 1961. He was detained

    25 together with me at the mosque. They released him from

  21. 1 Luka, and he went to the local community where he

    2 lived. He was there at home with his sick father.

    3 Also I heard from a lady from the neighbourhood that he

    4 was killed in his garden. She said that his throat had

    5 been slit.

    6 Q. The next names are the names of the Terzics,

    7 Ekrem Terzic, Enes Terzic, Muhamed Terzic. Very

    8 shortly, Witness, if you know what happened to those

    9 people, just tell us what you know, not about where

    10 they lived or who their relatives were, but just

    11 shortly, whether you know what happened to them. What

    12 happened?

    13 A. They were also detained at the mosque

    14 together with me. Afterwards they were transferred to

    15 the barracks, we were together over there too, and from

    16 the barracks, they were transferred to Luka. They were

    17 among the first to receive permits to get out from

    18 Luka. When they were leaving, when they were going

    19 home, they were waving their permits at us.

    20 For one period of time, they were staying

    21 with Enes's mother-in-law in the Serb part of town, and

    22 when they ran out of food, they went to Kolobara, the

    23 neighbourhood where they had lived.

    24 I heard that they were killed at home. I

    25 also heard about that from a lady in the neighbourhood

  22. 1 who had been at home during those days. She told us

    2 that they were killed as follows: While an apartment

    3 was being looted, they were looking through the window

    4 and that the curtain on that window had moved. That

    5 revealed their presence, so they were taken out of the

    6 house and all three were killed.

    7 I heard about that from a woman, and if it is

    8 not absolutely necessary, I would not like to mention

    9 her name.

    10 Q. We can move now to Exhibit 13. Again, very

    11 shortly, if you know what happened to these persons,

    12 just tell the Court.

    13 Number 1 is Midhat Sabanovic. What happened

    14 to this person?

    15 A. I said a few minutes ago that he was killed

    16 in his own yard, by his house.

    17 Q. Number 2 is also the person you already told

    18 the Court about; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, but I didn't say everything about

    20 him.

    21 Q. But you heard that he was killed?

    22 A. Yes, I heard that he was killed.

    23 Q. Number 5, there is the name Amir Novalic. Do

    24 you know or did you hear anything about what happened

    25 to this person?

  23. 1 A. I knew him very well, and I heard from people

    2 at the Batkovic camp, and also at the Luka camp, that

    3 he was killed in the SUP.

    4 Q. Under number 9, there is the name Mustafa

    5 Medinic. Do you know what happened to this person?

    6 A. From the people in his street who were

    7 brought in that day to the Wooden Mosque, I heard that

    8 both brothers; that is to say, Mustafa Medinic and Ado

    9 Medinic, were killed at home because allegedly they had

    10 been accused of being snipers.

    11 Q. So you just mentioned number 10, Ado Medinic,

    12 as being killed. Now number 11, Irfan Topolcevic.

    13 A. Irfan Topolcevic was also killed at home.

    14 Q. Number 12, Irfan Suljic.

    15 A. He was also killed when Mustafa Medinic was

    16 killed and when Ado Medinic was killed, on that very

    17 same day, because they were neighbours. Also I learned

    18 of his fate in one of these three camps, the mosque,

    19 Luka, Batkovici.

    20 Q. Number 15 is Muhamed Jakubovic.

    21 A. Muhamed Jakubovic, nicknamed Ulika, (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted). He made goods out of

    24 leather. He was killed at the gate of his own yard.

    25 Q. Number 16 is Sakib Becirevic.

  24. 1 A. I knew that man too. I heard of his fate

    2 from people who were exchanged, and that is how they

    3 came to the federal part of the Brcko municipality. I

    4 heard about this from a man -- I know his name and

    5 surname -- and he said that Sakib was taken out of the

    6 Partizan gym. He took him out personally or, rather,

    7 Ranko Cesic took him out personally. He took off his

    8 handcuffs and said that he should jump over the fence.

    9 When Sakib did that, Ranko killed him. Allegedly, he

    10 said that this man had started to run away.

    11 Q. Thank you. The next number is 17, Sakib

    12 Edhemovic.

    13 A. Everybody in Brcko knew that man. He was an

    14 excellent physician. He lived in the centre of town.

    15 I heard that he remained in the occupied Brcko and that

    16 he was killed around the middle of the war.

    17 Q. The next names are under numbers 19, 20, 21,

    18 and 22, the Terzic brothers and Kemal Sulejmanovic.

    19 Are they the same people you just talked about on the

    20 previous list as people being killed?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. The next name is number 23, Vasif

    23 Sulejmanovic, 23.

      1. A. (redacted)

    25 (redacted). In the beginning, when they were

  25. 1 detained at the mosque, and I was present there as

    2 well, a Serb soldier took me out of the Wooden Mosque

    3 in the neighbourhood of Kolobara. He asked me about

    4 Vasif, whether Vasif had any money on him. This Serb's

    5 name was Milenko Radusic. I said to him then that I

    6 did not know. I assumed that his wife had taken the

    7 money away with her. Milenko Radusic said to me that

    8 he heard that same story from Vasif; however, he

    9 torched his house with a Zolja nevertheless.

    10 I saw Vasif a few times in Brcko before I was

    11 deported to the Batkovici camp. Afterwards I heard

    12 that he was killed during my stay in the camp of

    13 Batkovici.

    14 Q. Number 27 is Muhamed Zelenjakovic. Is that

    15 the same person you just mentioned on the previous

    16 list?

    17 A. I do not recall whether this was on the

    18 previous list, (redacted)

    19 too. He was also together with us in the Wooden Mosque

    20 in Kolobara and in the medical centre. He was also

    21 together with us in the barracks and in the Luka camp.

    22 He was released, but then he was killed at home

    23 together with his son, and his house was torched.

    24 Q. Number 30, Ahmed (sic) Fatic.

    25 A. Just one correction: It is Ahmet, with a

  26. 1 "T," Fatic. That is a man whom I put on that list of

    2 hunters who had rifles, and I said that he was over 70

    3 years old. His next-door neighbour, a lady, came to

    4 see us after we left the Luka camp, and she told us

    5 that on one day, she had gone to see her neighbour

    6 because she got suspicious, as she was not seeing him

    7 around. However, as soon as she walked into the house,

    8 she smelt a stench. He lay in the room dead and the

    9 body had already started to decompose. She did not

    10 know whether he had been killed or whether he had died

    11 a natural death.

    12 Q. The next number is 36, Osman Vatic, the last

    13 name on this list.

    14 A. I knew Osman Vatic; I also knew his wife, as

    15 well as his two daughters. I did not know that he was

    16 at the Luka camp. During the war, I first saw him in

    17 the Batkovic camp. That is a man who had an artificial

    18 leg.

    19 I was personally present in the camp when,

    20 one day, an exchange was organised. Forty inmates from

    21 the Batkovic camp were supposed to be exchanged. A

    22 Serb officer then stopped the bus and said, "Take this

    23 Osman Vatic too so that we could get rid of him." They

    24 took him to Brcko, in front of the SUP building,

    25 together with the remaining 40 men. He was the 41st.

  27. 1 They took him out in front of the SUP building and they

    2 killed him. That's what I heard from the men who

    3 remained in the bus at that point and later reached the

    4 free point of Brcko; that is to say, the federal part

    5 of Brcko.

    6 Q. Thank you, Witness I.

    7 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I have no

    8 further questions of the witness.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    10 take a 20-minute break and then resume with the

    11 cross-examination, I suppose, by Mr. Greaves.

    12 --- Recess taken at 11.26 p.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 11.55 a.m.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    15 resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in,

    16 please.

    17 [The accused entered court]

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    19 you may proceed.

    20 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.

    21 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    22 Q. Witness I, could I ask you initially, please,

    23 if during my questioning of you, if you do not

    24 understand the question which I ask you, please do not

    25 be shy. Tell me immediately that you don't understand

  28. 1 the question and ask me either to repeat it or to

    2 rephrase it. Can you do that for me, please?

    3 A. Okay.

    4 Q. Can I ask you, please, this concerning

    5 yourself: Prior to the commencement of the war, were

    6 you in any way involved in political life?

    7 A. No, I was not.

    8 Q. During the war or since the war, have you

    9 become involved in politics?

    10 A. No, I did not.

    11 Q. Or joined a political party?

    12 A. No, I did not.

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    13 page 1036 redacted













  34. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 Q. Witness I, can I now move to this, please:

    12 Between then and the time when you were detained, was

    13 there an outbreak of fighting in the Brcko district?

    14 A. As of that day, the 1st of May, in the

    15 afternoon hours and until as time went by, we heard

    16 increasingly -- we heard evermore explosions and

    17 rifles.

    18 Q. Subsequently, when you were evacuated, did

    19 you see signs that heavy fighting had taken place in

    20 Brcko?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. By signs of heavy fighting, did that mean

    23 buildings that had been destroyed by artillery, large

    24 amounts of bullet holes on buildings and things like

    25 that? Would that be right?

  35. 1 A. I shall give you some information. During my

    2 stay, between the 1st and the 4th of May, that is,

    3 during my stay in the cellar, Serb forces brought in a

    4 tank to place near the health centre, and every couple

    5 of minutes or so one could hear detonations, rather, it

    6 would fire off and the door to our cellar would shake

    7 every time. The tank was about 70 or 80 metres away

    8 from the building in which I was.

    9 At that moment, that tank was targeting the

    10 suburban localities Klanac, Rijeka, Suljagica Sokak,

    11 and Dizdarusa. Every time it would fire and the

    12 cartridge would drop on the asphalt, one could hear the

    13 clinking sound of the shell. And from different

    14 directions, small bullets, that is, rifle bullets,

    15 would be aimed at roofs of the houses, facades,

    16 windows, so that a shell fell in my yard and caused

    17 damage to the roof, and felled a tree and cut the

    18 telephone wire, so that --

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I think you've answered the

    20 question, Witness I. I don't want us to get too far

    21 away from genocide. I bring you back to that. Count

    22 14, we are talking about Count 14.

    23 MR. GREAVES: Can I just explain, please?

    24 The reason I'm exploring the existence of fighting in

    25 the Brcko district in May is this: The Prosecution

  36. 1 rely on a series of mass graves which were found. The

    2 Defence is entitled to explore, in our submission,

    3 whether there were casualties, people killed during the

    4 course of that fighting who might reasonably be

    5 expected, having been killed in the circumstances of

    6 war, to be placed in a mass grave, as is frequently the

    7 case during fighting, because the Prosecution are, no

    8 doubt, going to say that these mass graves represent

    9 simply the act of genocide. So the Defence is entitled

    10 to examine, we submit, whether or not there's an

    11 alternative source, as it were, for the people in the

    12 mass graves. That's the purpose.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, there is

    14 an ambiguity, Mr. Greaves, not only in your questions

    15 but in those of the Prosecutor.

    16 I want to remind you that, as my colleagues

    17 appropriately pointed out to me, Goran Jelisic is not

    18 accused of complicity in genocide, he's accused of

    19 genocide. That is the Prosecutor's accusation, which

    20 is that Goran Jelisic, for the Prosecutor, had the

    21 intention of destroying a significant part of the

    22 Muslim population, which was Bosnian, for religious

    23 reasons. That's the Statute.

    24 Let us not redo the whole war in the area of

    25 Brcko. Jelisic allegedly committed genocide. The

  37. 1 Judges are not the ones who put that accusation down;

    2 it is the Prosecutor. I'm not only bringing you back,

    3 Mr. Greaves, but also bringing the Prosecutor back to

    4 the count of genocide because the accused pleaded

    5 guilty to everything.

    6 That doesn't concern you directly, Witness

    7 I. Don't be concerned. These are legal discussions,

    8 but they're very important for the accused.

    9 I'm not criticising your work, Mr. Greaves.

    10 I simply would not like us to move too far away from

    11 Count 1.

    12 MR. GREAVES: I understand that. Can I just

    13 make this further explanation to Your Honour? The

    14 issue of numbers of people who were killed is one which

    15 is important. Your Honours have to decide inter alia

    16 whether, in fact, the numbers actually killed

    17 represents a sufficient or, as Your Honour described

    18 it, a significant part of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Muslim

    19 population. So the issue of numbers is one which is

    20 important because if one is to demonstrate whether or

    21 not there was someone trying to --

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, I

    23 understand.

    24 MR. GREAVES: -- to demonstrate by evidence

    25 that there is another source for the killings, in other

  38. 1 words, fighting, in other words, that they were not, in

    2 fact, part of genocide, if there was a genocide, then

    3 that's a matter which goes and is relative and a

    4 probative issue which Your Honours have to try, in our

    5 submission.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, but you

    7 know that the question of the conflict, I say this to

    8 the Prosecutor and to the Defence, the question of the

    9 conflict is one which has been discussed at great

    10 length.

    11 Let me remind you that even our Statute

    12 doesn't speak about a conflict but says that genocide

    13 means any of the following acts committed with the

    14 intent to destroy in whole or in part a national,

    15 ethical, rational, or religious group. I understand

    16 that one can discuss what the term "part" means or the

    17 word "part" means, but we have to know exactly what the

    18 accused is being accused of.

    19 For the time being, we are looking at Count

    20 1, that is, genocide includes, and then the Prosecutor

    21 has to show that those acts were committed, not through

    22 direction of Republika Srpska but by Goran Jelisic with

    23 the intention of destroying, in whole or in part, a

    24 national, ethical, racial, or religious group. I do

    25 understand.

  39. 1 This is the reason that I keep bringing you

    2 back. It's not because I have a mania about going

    3 quickly. If the trial has to be long and slow, then it

    4 will be long and slow, but it has to go back to the

    5 exact point, and this does not only concern you,

    6 Mr. Greaves, but it concerns the Prosecutor as well.

    7 Having said this, you explained what it is

    8 that you are attempting to do and we thank you for

    9 doing so. Please continue, but, like the Prosecutor,

    10 try to remain within Count 1. Goran Jelisic has not

    11 been accused of complicity of genocide. He has been

    12 accused of genocide itself, at least that is Count 1 as

    13 it stands today. Please continue.

    14 Thank you, Witness I, for your patience.

    15 Witness I, try to answer concisely when the questions

    16 are asked. Let me explain why I'm saying this. The

    17 Prosecutor and the Defence, in this judicial system

    18 which is our own, have a plan. They know where they

    19 are going. They have a purpose. Mr. Greaves is to

    20 defend the accused and the Prosecutor is to demonstrate

    21 what the accused is being accused of.

    22 The questions may seem a bit short to you,

    23 and you may feel that you have many things to say, but

    24 still try to answer the questions that are asked you in

    25 a very specific and concise matter.

  40. 1 Please continue, Mr. Greaves. I myself have

    2 wasted some time, but I have done this with the

    3 agreement of my colleagues. We deemed that this was

    4 necessary. Thank you.

    5 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. Your

    6 Honour, may I just ask him about whether or not there

    7 were casualties there? That was the one question I

    8 wanted to ask. Your Honour didn't specifically rule on

    9 whether you considered that to be a relative and

    10 probative matter in the context of what I was asking,

    11 Your Honour.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, do

    13 ask your questions, Mr. Greaves.

    14 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.

    15 Q. Mr. I, again you can answer this very

    16 shortly: Were there obvious signs that there had been

    17 casualties, whether civilian or military, and by

    18 "casualties," I mean wounded or dead, in the signs of

    19 fighting that you saw?

    20 A. There were no signs to show that people, that

    21 is, those who are in mass graves, were killed by

    22 shells. They were all killed in a bestial way only

    23 because they were Muslims or Croats, or because they

    24 had belonged to a party, or simply because they did not

    25 like that man, and if they happened to be at a certain

  41. 1 place, they would be killed.

    2 Even if there were shelling casualties, their

    3 number is negligible. These victims didn't come from

    4 the town but from surrounding villages, because the

    5 heavy artillery, the Serb heavy artillery targeted

    6 Rahic, Palanka, Brka; that is, places outside the heart

    7 of the town, properly speaking. In the town, civilians

    8 perished in their own cellars, basements, homes, yards,

    9 camps, or were taken away to the Sava River and shot

    10 dead there, so that all the town casualties, 90

    11 fatalities -- 99 per cent of the fatalities were killed

    12 at close range; that is, they were shot dead, their

    13 throats were slit, and by other methods.

    14 Q. I'd like to ask you now, please, Mr. I, about

    15 your evacuation and removal to the medical centre. Is

    16 this right: that something like 150 to 200 people were

    17 moved in that exercise?

    18 A. On the 4th of May, at about 12.00, Serb

    19 formations were going down the street on which I lived

    20 and they were using the loudspeaker, inviting us to

    21 come out of our houses and cellars. I suggested that

    22 it would be better for us to come out and go wherever

    23 they were inviting us to, that is, the health centre,

    24 rather than stay in the cellar.

    25 A stream of people, impotent, elderly women

  42. 1 and children made the column, and I headed that column,

    2 and they brought us before the health centre. There,

    3 they separated women and children and with buses which

    4 were already waiting, they took them in an unknown

    5 direction, and men between the ages of 15 and 75 were

    6 kept in front of the health centre.

    7 Q. Mr. I, you've given us an awful lot of

    8 information, but you've not answered the question which

    9 I asked you. Please, would you direct your mind to the

    10 question which I'm asking and answer that, please. Is

    11 it right that between 150 and 200 people were evacuated

    12 and taken initially to the medical centre?

    13 A. I would not call it an evacuation. From the

    14 cellar, we were brought before the medical centre so

    15 that we could be interrogated there, so that we could

    16 be beaten there, so that we could be killed there.

    17 They never showed any kindness to us. They beat us

    18 all, one after the other, both children and old men,

    19 sick and healthy.

    20 Q. Mr. I, you're going to be here a lot longer

    21 than is necessary if you don't answer the question. I

    22 don't mind whether we call it an evacuation or an

    23 exercise in moving people. How many people were

    24 involved?

    25 A. Well, that part of my neighbourhood

  43. 1 community, it's about two streets. Men, we were about

    2 150, maybe 200.

    3 Q. Thank you. You've told us in evidence just

    4 now that the age range was people between 15 and 75, as

    5 to those who were separated off and kept in front of

    6 the health centre. Isn't this right: that the group

    7 of people who were separated from you were women,

    8 children, and males under 18 and over 60, and, indeed,

    9 that is what you told the Office of the Prosecutor?

    10 A. Yes, you are right. Some. Some, those

    11 advanced age. They also dispatched women and children,

    12 but in the mosque --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You've

    14 answered, Witness I. I think that was the question

    15 that Defence counsel was asking you. If he needs any

    16 further details, he'll ask you for them.

    17 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    18 MR. GREAVES:

    19 Q. Amongst the people who were there, were there

    20 some, in fact, who were Serb men of working age?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor this:

    23 that you had been told by a Serb friend that the

    24 working male Serbs had been taken to the army barracks,

    25 that they had been mobilised. Do you remember doing

  44. 1 that?

    2 A. I don't know what I should call this. This

    3 man is from a mixed marriage. Yes, it is true that

    4 he's called Dragan. His father was probably a Serb and

    5 his mother a Muslim. He was together with us in the

    6 mosque.

    7 Q. Did he give you information to that effect,

    8 indeed, that those who would not go for mobilisation

    9 would be beaten and forced to eat grass?

    10 A. That I was told by someone else.

    11 Q. Thank you. Is this right: that when you

    12 were at the mosque, you were interrogated?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Were the people involved in that

    15 interrogation somebody called Mauzer and somebody

    16 called Kosta?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. By "Kosta," is that somebody called Kosta

    19 Kostic?

    20 A. Later on I learned that that was his last

    21 name.

    22 Q. And a man of about 40; would that be about

    23 right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. The subject of the interrogation which was

  45. 1 conducted with you was, in effect, this: Mauzer

    2 wanting to know what you knew about people who were

    3 engaged in military activities, people who possessed

    4 weapons, people who belonged to the political parties;

    5 would that be right?

    6 A. Yes, that's right.

    7 Q. As far as two, at least, of the people whose

    8 names you gave as possessing weapons, although you

    9 don't know why they were killed, the information is

    10 that they were subsequently killed?

    11 A. Yes. Yes, all four were hunters, but only

    12 two were killed.

    13 Q. You've described in evidence somebody called

    14 Danijel having been killed at Luka. Had you seen him

    15 before at the mosque?

    16 A. Yes, I saw him at the mosque. He was taken

    17 to the medical centre where they interrogated him and

    18 where they beat him, together with Ahmet Hodzic, Papa,

    19 and the Terzic brothers.

    20 Q. Ahmet Hodzic, was he beaten because he was

    21 involved in politics in the area? Was that the focus

    22 of why he was being ill-treated?

    23 A. He was president of the local community, and

    24 he was a member of the SDA. The soldiers who were

    25 present there -- rather, one soldier said publicly,

  46. 1 "Why don't you say that you're president of the

    2 party? Why don't you speak up?" And he said he was

    3 only a member of the party, and then they said, "Get

    4 out," and they took him away and he never came back.

    5 Q. And what about Danijel? Was there any reason

    6 for the beating that was given to him?

    7 A. Danijel was accused of having had a Scorpio

    8 gun at home.

    9 Q. Was he a young man of military age?

    10 A. He was a military-aged man; however, as far

    11 as I know, he was not involved in anything. I knew him

    12 personally from way back. I knew him as an exemplary

    13 citizen.

    14 Q. Is it within your knowledge, Mr. I, that

    15 other people whilst at the mosque were interrogated?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And again was the focus of those

    18 interrogations to obtain information about organisation

    19 of resistance, possession of weapons, money, property,

    20 things like that?

    21 A. All the time they were looking for snipers

    22 who did not exist; they looked for weapons which did

    23 not exist. I know a few men whom they had beaten up,

    24 having accused them of having owned weapons, and I can

    25 guarantee that these persons did not have weapons. So

  47. 1 that was just used as a pretext for mistreatment.

    2 Q. Is this right, Mr. I: Some information was

    3 given to them by somebody called Jasmin, some of

    4 Fikret, the green grocer, nicknamed Binto, and from a

    5 man called Midhat Kobilja, who gave them a list of

    6 people who owned weapons and who were SDA members?

    7 A. Yes, there were such men who agreed to talk

    8 in order to save their lives, to say what was true and

    9 what was not true.

    10 Q. During your stay at the mosque, somebody

    11 called Suljic was killed trying to escape, and

    12 somebody, I think, also managed to escape completely,

    13 Enes Turkusic; is that right?

    14 A. Exactly. That's right.

    15 Q. Just briefly one question which I hadn't

    16 asked you about your own interrogation. Is this

    17 right: that (redacted)

    18 (redacted) you were singled

    19 out almost immediately to go and be interrogated?

    20 A. Yes. That's right.

    21 Q. Mr. I, as a result of your interrogation, you

    22 were asked about a particular shooting club, weren't

    23 you?

    24 A. That's right.

    25 Q. Did you not try to tell them that the only

  48. 1 weapons that were held by this shooting club were, in

    2 fact, air guns, air weapons?

    3 A. Yes. You're right. I thought that this

    4 shooting club only had air guns.

    5 Q. You were taken to the shooting club and a

    6 search was conducted with you there; isn't that right?

    7 A. No, a search was not conducted. Everything

    8 that was in this shooting club was driven away in

    9 automobiles, in the direction of Bijeljina. There were

    10 some technical goods there, television sets, video

    11 recorders, telephones. There were air guns,

    12 small-calibre ammunition, and guns for competitions,

    13 M48s.

    14 Q. M48 rifles, which is not an air gun, is it?

    15 A. That's right, but there weren't many of

    16 those. There were a few of them only. However, this

    17 shooting club sometimes competed with such rifles as

    18 well.

    19 Q. To put it very shortly, in one compartment,

    20 8 cases of ammunition, 5.000 rounds of small-calibre

    21 ammunition, 15 small-calibre pistols, 2 large-calibre

    22 pistols, walkie-talkies, small-calibre rifles, and

    23 hunting rifles, those were also recovered, weren't

    24 they?

    25 A. I cannot recall hunting rifles, but you're

  49. 1 right as for the rest.

    2 Q. After Ahmet Hodzic, otherwise known as Papa,

    3 had been taken away, did the man Jasmin, who is the son

    4 of the green grocer, give them further information?

    5 A. At this moment I cannot recall precisely,

    6 because I was not present, but I believe that he might

    7 have said something.

    8 Q. He named two particular individuals who had

    9 owned weapons?

    10 A. Yes. He did give names and these persons

    11 were taken for interrogation to the medical centre, and

    12 then they were brought back too. It was quite visible

    13 that they had been mistreated.

    14 Q. Is this right: that the Terzic brothers were

    15 at the mosque?

    16 A. The Terzic brothers -- the Terzic brothers

    17 were at the mosque.

    18 Q. Is this right: Before they interrogated one

    19 of the brothers, they had already found two sniper

    20 rifles at their cousin's house, Nermin Terzic, and they

    21 were beating the brothers because of their relationship

    22 to this man, where rifles had been found?

    23 A. That's right, but I have to point out that

    24 this relative of theirs had these weapons registered,

    25 and he was fond of hunting and was fond of fishing

  50. 1 too. As for his weapons, they knew about it at the SUP

    2 too, where there were records concerning the possession

    3 of these weapons.

    4 Q. Is this also right: that you were questioned

    5 at one stage by a man called Milenko Radusic?

    6 A. Yes. That's right.

    7 Q. Who told you that someone, a sniper, had been

    8 found on the roof of Vasif Sulejmanovic's house and

    9 that action had been taken against the sniper's

    10 position?

    11 A. It's not any rifle. He asked Vasif for

    12 money, this Milenko did, and that's why --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Answer

    14 specifically. The question was whether a sniper rifle

    15 was found. You say "Yes" or "No," or are you saying

    16 "not at all," that you don't know, or that you -- what

    17 is your answer?

    18 A. No. No.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Continue,

    20 Mr. Greaves.

    21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I think there's

    22 some misunderstanding. What I'm suggesting is whether

    23 it's right or wrong, someone had told him that a rifle

    24 had been found and that that was the cause for an

    25 attack on the house, not whether it's true or not. He

  51. 1 hasn't quite answered the question which I asked.

    2 Perhaps I can just deal with it quickly again. Just

    3 listen carefully.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Rephrase

    5 the question. Perhaps I didn't understand it quite

    6 right either.

    7 MR. GREAVES:

    8 Q. Whether it's right or wrong as to whether

    9 there was a sniper on the roof, that was the accusation

    10 being made concerning Vasif Sulejmanovic's house and

    11 that's what you were told?

    12 A. Yes. That's right.

    13 Q. The same person who told you that explained

    14 that as a result of that being suspected, it had been

    15 attacked with an anti-tank launcher?

    16 A. That's not what that person had told me.

    17 Q. The reason I ask you is that's what you told

    18 the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, January

    19 1993.

    20 A. I remember. I remember that Milenko Radusic

    21 took me out of the mosque and asked me about Vasif

    22 Sulejmanovic, whether he had any money, because this

    23 Milenko Radusic was not interested in anyone who had

    24 weapons, he was only interested in money, gold, and

    25 things like that.

  52. 1 Q. I'd like to turn next to this please, Mr. I.

    2 During your detention at the mosque, is this right,

    3 that a group of Serb doctors were brought to the

    4 premises and people were treated for injuries and any

    5 illnesses that they might have?

    6 A. Some doctors came. I don't know whether all

    7 of them were Serbs. At any rate, at one point in time

    8 they allowed them to enter and bandage those who had

    9 wounds on their heads or other parts of their bodies.

    10 Q. In due course, you were taken to the military

    11 barracks. Was that all the people in the mosque?

    12 A. Yes. We were taken to the barracks so that

    13 others could be brought to the mosque. Some stayed

    14 behind after me in the mosque and also at the medical

    15 centre.

    16 Q. When you got to the barracks, were there

    17 already people there?

    18 A. Yes. They were mostly people from the heart

    19 of town.

    20 Q. Like your group, were they men of military

    21 age, that is, between 18 and 60?

    22 A. Not all of them.

    23 Q. The majority?

    24 A. Yes. There were women too.

    25 Q. And amongst those detained at the barracks,

  53. 1 also some Serbs. Is that right or not?

    2 A. Are you referring to the detained Serbs or

    3 the Serb soldiers?

    4 Q. Detained Serbs, Mr. I.

    5 A. Yes. Yes, from mixed marriages.

    6 Q. Can you help me with this? At the barracks,

    7 was the person who was known as Jasce, Jasmin

    8 Cumurovic, was he there?

    9 A. Yes. Yes, he was there.

    10 Q. Was he singled out of the barracks because of

    11 an allegation that he'd spat at a Serb?

    12 A. Yes. He was not singled out. This person

    13 who then saw him recognised him and said, "You there,

    14 go for a walk. Don't make me drill you with bullets."

    15 He said, "Why?" This other man replied that long ago,

    16 in a cafe, he spat at a girl called Ljilja, his

    17 relative.

    18 Q. Was that somebody called Dragan Tanaskovic?

    19 A. Yes, Tanaskovic.

    20 Q. Did you see him at Luka, Tanaskovic?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. I want to turn now to your transfer to Luka

    23 camp. How many in all of you were transferred to

    24 Luka?

    25 A. There were about five buses belonging to the

  54. 1 public transportation company, the Laser Company.

    2 Q. So would this be right: that about 300

    3 people were transferred to Luka with you?

    4 A. I assumed there were more.

    5 MR. GREAVES: Sorry. Would Your Honour just

    6 give me a moment? I've lost my notes.

    7 Q. Significantly more than 300?

    8 A. I cannot exactly tell, but there were really

    9 quite a few of us. When we entered the hangar half of

    10 us were there, one next to another, pushed against one

    11 another, so I cannot exactly estimate how many there

    12 were.

    13 Q. Were you placed immediately into the hangar?

    14 A. No. First when the buses arrived in Luka

    15 they were stopped. We waited for some time in the

    16 buses, perhaps for someone to come. However, after

    17 that they would open the front door next to the driver

    18 and then we would leave one by one, entering the

    19 hangar. Near the entrance was a box which was a paper

    20 box at first, and then Goran brought a plastic box.

    21 However, since this was slow, they let us all into the

    22 hangar and then afterwards they started taking away our

    23 personal belongings.

    24 Q. When you were put into the hangar were there

    25 already people there who had previously arrived at

  55. 1 Luka?

    2 A. As far as I can remember, no. At least not

    3 in that room. I don't know about the rest. I only

    4 know that we were ordered to take brooms, some of us,

    5 and to sweep the floor in that room. There was quite a

    6 bit of glass, because the bridge is nearby, and this

    7 glass was broken due to the detonation when the bridge

    8 was destroyed. So some people cleaned this up.

    9 Then we had to sit down, and we had to keep

    10 our heads down. We had to look at the floor, and we

    11 had to keep our hands behind our backs.

    12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm going to move

    13 to a slightly different topic. I wonder if that's a

    14 convenient moment.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We

    16 agree. We will resume at 2.30.

    17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.









  56. 1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now

    3 resume the hearing. Please be seated. Have the

    4 accused brought in.

    5 [The accused entered court]

    6 MR. NICE: Your Honour?

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice?

    8 MR. NICE: Just before the cross-examination

    9 continues, two points: First, it's been brought to our

    10 attention that with all the witnesses, not just this

    11 witness, when we go into the lists, there's a

    12 difficulty for the administration because of the amount

    13 of redaction or editing of the material that has to be

    14 undertaken by your staff, and despite all their

    15 conscientious industry, it's very difficult for them to

    16 catch all the relevant passages that may offend the

    17 privacy that's being kept for the witness's evidence.

    18 It has been raised as a possibility that we

    19 might deal with questions about the list in private

    20 session. We're, obviously, all loathe not to have as

    21 much of the trial as possible in private, but seeing

    22 the scale of the difficulties that they're facing, I'm

    23 certainly content to make that application, if it

    24 otherwise finds favour.

    25 The second thing that I'd like to mention

  57. 1 very diffidently, and I do it so as to save

    2 Mr. Tochilovsky the responsibility of irritating you,

    3 if I do irritate you, but it's this: I'm very

    4 concerned about the length of cross-examination. It

    5 does seem to me that a lot of the questions that are

    6 being asked are not cross-examination at all but are

    7 repeat questions which simply have the purpose of

    8 taking time.

    9 Now, in a case like this or in evidence like

    10 this where, for example, a witness is given a name that

    11 the defendant associated with himself, one of the

    12 things we need to know is that accepted, that he

    13 described himself in that way, or is that challenged,

    14 but those things aren't being dealt with, and all we're

    15 having is repetition.

    16 Sorry to sound a critical note, but seeing

    17 the passage of time, I thought it my duty to do so.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps there's

    19 an interpretation problem. I didn't quite catch the

    20 end of what was said from the French interpretation.

    21 When a witness has given a name -- could you rephrase

    22 that, please? I didn't quite understand that.

    23 I'll ask my interpreter to pay particular

    24 attention to the interpretation of what the end of your

    25 sentence was.

  58. 1 MR. NICE: Certainly, and perhaps I can

    2 rephrase it. One of the useful functions of

    3 cross-examination is this: Where evidence is given,

    4 for example, that a person uses a particular name to

    5 describe himself or where evidence is given that the

    6 defendant has said something about his intention, one

    7 of the useful purposes of cross-examination is to

    8 discover if that's accepted or if it's being suggested

    9 that that is incorrect, because then we all know where

    10 we stand.

    11 There may not have been very substantial

    12 identification of issues with this particular witness

    13 in that way. What we've had instead is repetition of

    14 the evidence or that sort of thing. That's what's

    15 troubling me.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] As regards the

    17 first point, I will confer with my colleagues very

    18 rapidly.

    19 [Trial Chamber confers]

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    21 first of all, would you like to respond to what your

    22 colleague on the Prosecution side said?

    23 MR. GREAVES: I have no objection to us going

    24 into private session when the issue of the list of

    25 people is discussed. I think this morning particularly

  59. 1 demonstrated the practical difficulties, and I

    2 criticise nobody in respect of that. They can arise

    3 because of relationships or people living next to one

    4 another or whatever it is. So I have no problem about

    5 that, and Your Honours may think that's an entirely

    6 practical suggestion, although I would echo my learned

    7 friend's suggestion that as little as possible should

    8 be done in secret; as much as possible should be done,

    9 as a matter of principle, in open court. But I

    10 understand the practical difficulties that are raised

    11 by that.

    12 As to the second matter, I reject entirely

    13 the accusation of professional misconduct which has

    14 been made against me, and I resent it and do not accept

    15 it. Your Honour, the cross-examination this morning

    16 has been made lengthy, not because I have been asking

    17 repetitious questions but because the witness would not

    18 answer the question which he was asked. I, therefore,

    19 reject the suggestion that was made.

    20 [Trial Chamber confers]

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges have

    22 decided that henceforth, the review or examination of

    23 the two lists will be done in private session. I am

    24 saying this for the public gallery. There are quite a

    25 few people here in the public gallery who are listening

  60. 1 to us today. Only some aspects could cause that to be

    2 the case, for example, that the questions deal with the

    3 list that could be prejudicial to the witness.

    4 We are also concerned about the length of the

    5 cross-examination, and the Judges are mindful of the

    6 need to conduct the proceedings according to Rule

    7 90(G); that is, "(i) to make the interrogation and

    8 presentation effective for the ascertainment of the

    9 truth; and (ii) avoid needless consumption of time."

    10 The Judges wish -- I repeat, they wish --

    11 that the time of the cross-examination, as much as

    12 possible -- I want this to be properly indicated -- as

    13 much as possible be matched with the length of the

    14 examination-in-chief, of course, with a degree of

    15 flexibility and suppleness which is to the advantage of

    16 the accused. Otherwise, it would be very easy for the

    17 Prosecution to conduct the examination-in-chief for

    18 three minutes and then to say to the Defence that he

    19 has only three minutes to cross-examine the witness.

    20 The Judges have been given certain powers by

    21 the texts and will apply those powers. I won't even

    22 say the rule; I'll say the principle applied with as

    23 much care as possible, that as much as possible, that

    24 should be our criterion and this is the way we should

    25 go, that the time of the cross-examination, as much as

  61. 1 possible, should be -- I repeat, as much as possible --

    2 matched with the length of the examination-in-chief.

    3 Then we move to Rule 90(H), that

    4 the "cross-examination shall be limited to the

    5 subject-matter of the direct examination ..." This is

    6 a fundamental rule. Naturally, the Prosecutor has

    7 called in his witness, brings out a certain number of

    8 points, and the cross-examination is to deal with those

    9 very points.

    10 Obviously, I am not unaware of the fact, and

    11 this is the third question, of the need to discuss the

    12 credibility of the witness, but the

    13 examination-in-chief is not limited to any points;

    14 therefore, the cross-examination must be able to bring

    15 out any questions of credibility as well.

    16 Lastly, I would ask Mr. Greaves not to have

    17 the witness repeat things needlessly. Questions can be

    18 asked simply by saying, "You said this during your

    19 examination-in-chief," and then we're going to go into

    20 subsequent questions which you might consider to be

    21 appropriate. This is how we feel that we could try to

    22 be sure that by the 17th, Friday, the presentation of

    23 the Prosecution's case could be completed.

    24 Last point, and in agreement with my

    25 colleagues, these Rules which now apply to the Defence

  62. 1 will apply mutatis mutandis to the Prosecution when the

    2 Defence calls in its own principal witnesses.

    3 We can now continue, and I say to the public,

    4 this is the cross-examination of a protected witness

    5 whom we are calling Witness I.

    6 Mr. Greaves, you may proceed. Let me ask you

    7 right now to tell us approximately how much time you

    8 will need. You've used up about an hour and fifteen

    9 minutes, an hour and ten minutes. I think that's

    10 right.

    11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Well, it was one hour.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You took one

    13 hour. So you have been cross-examining for an hour,

    14 but you must acknowledge that the Prosecution, with its

    15 own witness, used how much time?

    16 THE REGISTRAR: They used one hour and ten

    17 minutes.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Therefore, of

    19 course, we are not going to impose a necessity to

    20 finish within the next ten minutes. We are applying

    21 these Rules with flexibility and in the full respect of

    22 the rights of the accused, and that is why we're asking

    23 approximately how much more time you need? I will also

    24 ask the witness to answer more concisely, as far as is

    25 possible.

  63. 1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I think to be

    2 fair, it was closer to an hour and a half that the

    3 Prosecution took for this witness this morning.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: I must say, Mr. Greaves, that I

    5 thought it had lasted -- I thought that it lasted about

    6 an hour and a half.

    7 Are you sure, Mr. Registrar, when you give us

    8 these numbers?

    9 MR. GREAVES: I thought we started promptly

    10 this morning and it finished at about 11.25, which is

    11 as near as you care to wish to an hour and a half.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.

    13 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I return to

    14 the difficulty of witnesses not answering questions?

    15 I'm going to make it plain that I'm not going to

    16 interrupt witnesses whilst they are speaking, because I

    17 know that the next objection that will come is that I'm

    18 harassing the witness.

    19 It really has to be for Your Honour to draw

    20 to the witness's attention as soon as he starts to

    21 stray from the question. If you look at the questions

    22 I'm asking, they're about two lines on average, in

    23 length. They're directed to a specific topic.

    24 The problem continues to be that the

    25 witnesses do not answer the question which they have

  64. 1 been asked but answer some question which they would

    2 like to have been asked.

    3 So I'm not going to start interrupting them

    4 halfway through, because I know the allegation is then

    5 going to be, "You're harassing them," and that's

    6 unfair.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

    8 We're not talking about harassing the witness. You can

    9 interrupt the witness. That's your right. We've seen

    10 this in other trials in this Tribunal. But it is true

    11 that we all, I'm not specifically speaking to Witness I

    12 but, Witness, I must know that this Tribunal has got

    13 some history behind it now and whether it's the Judges,

    14 the Prosecutor, or the Defence or Prosecution, we are

    15 very sensitive to the suffering that you experienced.

    16 We're familiar and understand what happened to you in

    17 this dreadful hangar where you were, and it is rather

    18 cruel and savage to say to a witness abruptly, "You're

    19 not answering the question." That's why we try to

    20 apply our rules with flexibility, but I am asking you

    21 to try to focus. The Defence must be able to do its

    22 work and it's work is to defend the accused. That's

    23 what a judicial institution in a democratic society

    24 does. I really ask you to focus on the questions and

    25 to answer the questions.

  65. 1 When you want to develop something, I cannot

    2 interrupt you too much when you're speaking about what

    3 you experienced, but in the future I won't hesitate to

    4 do so to some extent because those are going to come

    5 after you, the other witnesses, the other victims, must

    6 also have time to express themselves.

    7 Do you understand what I'm saying? Do

    8 understand me?

    9 A. [No audible response]

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    11 We'll -- Mr. Greaves, you did not give an answer about

    12 how much time you think you need to complete your

    13 cross-examination if the witness answers properly.

    14 MR. GREAVES: I anticipate being done in

    15 under an hour.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I hope it

    17 really will be under an hour. I ask that it be that

    18 way. Please proceed.

    19 MR. GREAVES:

    20 Q. Mr. I, you told us this morning about some

    21 glass that you found in the hangar, which was broken.

    22 Just very quickly, there was around the top of the

    23 hangar a line of windows. Did it come from those

    24 windows? Were the windows broken when you got there?

    25 A. I suppose so.

  66. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, he

    2 wanted to explain something. He said that the hangar

    3 has windows, there were explosions, and did these --

    4 was that the cause of the broken windows. You don't

    5 have to -- that was already explained. I even noted

    6 that. So please move to the next question.

    7 MR. GREAVES:

    8 Q. As far as the numbers were concerned who were

    9 detained with you, was that 300 -- or have I asked

    10 that? I'm sorry. I've made a note there -- at Luka?

    11 A. I believe you asked that question already. I

    12 cannot give you the exact number, but I think -- my

    13 guess is there were more than 300.

    14 Q. During the course of the day that you were

    15 there, were people released?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Were they released after interrogation?

    18 A. Some were interrogated at Luka and then were

    19 released. Some were interrogated at the mosque and

    20 then they were released. I mean, such as, for

    21 instance, brothers Terzic.

    22 Q. Would those people --

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're speaking

    24 about the hangar, Witness I.

    25 A. Some were released from Luka after

  67. 1 interrogation, and some were not interrogated there and

    2 yet were released nevertheless.

    3 MR. GREAVES:

    4 Q. The people who were released from Luka, what

    5 proportion of the people who were detained with you

    6 were released?

    7 A. Two groups were released. A smaller group of

    8 about ten people, and the second group, and I was one

    9 of them, between -- something between 30 and 40

    10 people.

    11 Q. Do you know if they were issued with a pass

    12 or any document to enable them to be released?

    13 A. Yes. They were issued passes which were

    14 printed and one only had to fill in one's name. I was

    15 issued that pass but it simply went -- came to pieces

    16 at the Batkovic camp.

    17 Q. When you say "printed," is that typewritten

    18 or printed, as it were, by a printing machine?

    19 A. I think it was a copying machine of a kind.

    20 Q. The pass which you were issued with, was that

    21 signed in your presence?

    22 A. These release documents were signed in

    23 advance, so all one did was fill in the names.

    24 Q. Were you able to read who it was who had

    25 signed your pass?

  68. 1 A. I only know there was a seal of Semberija

    2 Majevica, and as for the signature, it was illegible.

    3 Q. After you had been released, did you use that

    4 pass in order to move about and make your way around?

    5 A. With that pass I managed to come out with the

    6 rest of the group as far as the Es locality, but the

    7 next day they took them away and said they were not

    8 valid, and we were told that we had to go and be issued

    9 a different pass from the SUP. Ranko Cesic came and

    10 tore up those passes.

    11 Q. I want to ask you now something about which

    12 you heard in connection with the murder of the brothers

    13 from Zvornik. Is it correct that you heard Goran

    14 Jelisic say that they had positively been identified as

    15 Green Berets, that they were Albanians from Kosovo who

    16 had come to fight against the Serbs?

    17 A. I don't think that that question asked of me

    18 is correct. All he said was that they were identified

    19 as Green Berets and that we would see how they should

    20 be treated. He never mentioned Kosovo. All he said

    21 was that they were Albanians, that they were Sqiptars,

    22 and they came from Zvornik.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please

    24 continue. The answer's been given.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Well, with respect, I want to

  69. 1 put something to him that is inconsistent with that, if

    2 you wouldn't mind, please.

    3 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you made a

    4 statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities on the

    5 3rd of January, 1993, Mr. I. Do you recall doing

    6 that?

    7 A. Some of it.

    8 Q. Did you sign the statement at the end of

    9 making it?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Do you accept that you concluded the

    12 statement with the following paragraph:

    13 "Finally I declare here that I have stated

    14 my personal observations, that all I have said is true

    15 and correct, and I shall confirm it with my signature,

    16 standing prepared to repeat what I have said in court

    17 or before a humanitarian organisation should there be

    18 need."

    19 Do you accept that's how you concluded that

    20 statement?

    21 A. At the time I gave the statement to the

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovinan authorities, I had not taken any

    23 oath then. I needed time, in conversation with others

    24 who were present, to simply put everything in its

    25 place.

  70. 1 Q. Amongst those who were issued passes that

    2 day, did that include the brothers Terzic, the three

    3 brothers, Muhamed, Ekrem, and Enes?

    4 A. [No audible response]

    5 Q. Sorry, the transcript has indicated there was

    6 no audible response, but I heard him say something.

    7 Could you please answer again, Mr. I? I'm

    8 sorry.

    9 A. You want me to repeat my last answer? Yes,

    10 they were brothers Terzic.

    11 Q. Were they issued passes?

    12 A. They were issued passes with that group.

    13 They left before me. They waved at us with their

    14 passes as they left.

    15 Q. When the question of your brother being

    16 issued with an ID card or a pass came up and Goran

    17 Jelisic was there, is this correct: that the man,

    18 Dragan Tanaskovic, was also there and was watching what

    19 was going on?

    20 A. Yes, it is correct.

    21 Q. Is it also correct that Goran Jelisic

    22 deferred to him when the issue of whether either just

    23 your brother or both of you were to be released, and

    24 Dragan Tanaskovic said, "Both of them"?

    25 A. I think that, at the time -- Goran Jelisic

  71. 1 had more sway at the time, but Dragan, since he knew

    2 him before that, asked him to release the two of us.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]

    4 Mr. Tochilovsky?

    5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I would like the Defence,

    6 when they refer to the witness statement, just to refer

    7 to it correctly, because in the statement it says:

    8 "Goran glanced at him and Dragan said ...", and the

    9 witness was asked whether it is true that Goran asked

    10 permission and he was given permission. Instead it

    11 says, "Goran glanced at him," and that's it. Thank

    12 you.

    13 MR. GREAVES: Well, it would be helpful if my

    14 learned friend would intervene and correctly refer to

    15 the question I asked, which was: "Is it correct that

    16 Goran Jelisic deferred to him," not the word "asked."

    17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: In the question it says

    18 "Goran Jelisic deferred to him when the issue of

    19 either just your brother or both of you were to be

    20 released."

    21 It's not in the statement. It's not there.

    22 Thanks.

    23 MR. GREAVES: It rather depends on what

    24 construction you put on the act of glancing at

    25 someone.

  72. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges have

    2 been alerted to this misunderstanding, and they will

    3 have these declarations tendered as exhibits at the

    4 proper time. Please continue.

    5 MR. GREAVES: Sorry. You'll just have to

    6 give me a moment, please.

    7 Q. Were you able, please, Mr. I, during the

    8 course of your detention at Luka on that day, able to

    9 overhear an interrogation carried out by Ranko Cesic?

    10 A. I was pretty far away from the room or,

    11 rather, from the office where Ranko took the people he

    12 interrogated, so I only heard him cussing, and I heard

    13 moans from that room.

    14 Q. Did you, later that day, hear Ranko Cesic

    15 saying something else concerning passes?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is this correct: that he appeared from an

    18 office and demanded to know who it was who had been

    19 issuing passes?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did he express anger on that occasion because

    22 passes had been issued to you and other people, and

    23 that they were members of the SDA? Whether he was

    24 right or wrong about the membership, he was angry about

    25 members of the SDA being released.

  73. 1 A. I just have to say that I wasn't the member

    2 of any party. However, I imagine that he was angry

    3 because I had received a pass, because I was involved

    4 in an incident before the war, several years before the

    5 war, in a cafe.

    6 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor is

    7 this, and I shall read it out so there is to doubt

    8 about what is being said:

    9 "While waiting to get a pass, Ranko came out

    10 and said, 'Who is issuing the passes?' Ranko was mad

    11 at me, I believe, because some of my friends and

    12 relatives were members of the SDA party."

    13 Do you recall telling the Office of the

    14 Prosecutor that?

    15 A. I recall that. However, I assumed that he

    16 was angrier on account of me, because he didn't know my

    17 relatives at all.

    18 Q. Well, what gave you cause to believe, as you

    19 told the Office of the Prosecutor, that he was

    20 referring not just to you but members of your family?

    21 Was it something which he said?

    22 A. Out of all my relatives that I know, only one

    23 was a member of the SDA party, but I doubt that Ranko

    24 knew that particular relative of mine. All the rest

    25 were not involved in parties at all or were members of

  74. 1 the SDP.

    2 Q. In due course, did you form a line in order

    3 to receive passes?

    4 A. We did not form in a line. We stood in

    5 disarray, perhaps in two or three lines.

    6 Q. During the course of waiting for your pass,

    7 did you become aware of two other people, inspectors,

    8 Petar Kaurinovic and Dragisa Tesic, in an office?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Is this correct: that they were engaged in

    11 the task of checking some printouts from the SUP

    12 files?

    13 A. I presume, because they were in a room that

    14 was just by the entrance, on the right-hand side, where

    15 there is a window and where there were curtains. Quite

    16 a few people got out of Luka with their assistance.

    17 Q. What I want to ask you is this: You were

    18 able to form the opinion, from what you could see, that

    19 it was they who were deciding who should be set free

    20 and they who were deciding who should be shot; isn't

    21 that correct?

    22 A. I cannot claim that which I did not see.

    23 Q. Well, Mr. I, what you told the authorities in

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in 1993, was this:

    25 "While this was all going on, police

  75. 1 inspectors Petar Kaurinovic and Dragisa Tesic were in

    2 the next office checking the printouts from the SUP

    3 files, and deciding with one nod of the head who was

    4 going to be set free and who was to be shot."

    5 That's what you observed, isn't it, and

    6 that's why you told the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities

    7 about it?

    8 A. If necessary, I'm going to clarify this.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. I would

    10 like you to explain that answer, please.

    11 A. These two inspectors, they brought files from

    12 the SUP, from IDs that were in the SUP. Lists had

    13 already been made of persons who were undesirable in

    14 town.

    15 Goran went to this office and probably got

    16 IDs from them, that is to say, the IDs of persons whose

    17 documents were taken out, that is to say, these files.

    18 However, I cannot say that they were the ones who said

    19 who was to be shot and who was not to be shot, because

    20 I realised for myself that Goran, Sok, and Ranko had

    21 shot people dead without any IDs.

    22 MR. GREAVES:

    23 Q. I want to ask you now about the time at Luka

    24 when Jasmin Cumurovic was taken by Ranko into a

    25 building. Do you recall seeing Goran Jelisic appearing

  76. 1 and coming to talk to the detainees?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Isn't it right that he said this: "Those who

    4 aren't guilty should not be afraid. I'm only

    5 interested in the Territorial Defence and Green

    6 Berets"?

    7 He also added that civilians would stay for

    8 awhile and then be released.

    9 A. Yes. That's precisely what I meant.

    10 Q. What did you understand the word "civilians"

    11 to mean?

    12 A. I think that civilians are all of those who

    13 were in their homes, who were with their families, with

    14 their children, who were not at any front line or

    15 anything, simply those who were left to the mercy of

    16 the men who came from the outside, and people who were

    17 from the vicinity of the town of Brcko as well as from

    18 the town of Brcko itself. Naturally, these people were

    19 of Serb ethnicity.

    20 Q. Can you help us, please, about this: You

    21 mentioned in one of the two statements that you made

    22 before giving evidence about Danijel, I think,

    23 Ibrahimovic being beaten at the mosque, but you did not

    24 mention anything about being a witness to his murder.

    25 Can you explain that?

  77. 1 A. Yes, I can. I knew that man in part.

    2 Although he lived in my neighbourhood, I saw him only a

    3 few times in my lifetime. During the aggression, I

    4 first saw him at the mosque. He was taken out of there

    5 and taken to the medical centre. They interrogated him

    6 there because he was accused of possessing a Scorpion

    7 gun.

    8 After that, while I was at the barracks, I

    9 did not see him because most probably he stayed back at

    10 the medical centre. However, in Luka, I did see him in

    11 the afternoon. It was already getting dark. He was

    12 brought in from the main entrance to the Luka camp, and

    13 he passed by our group where we were waiting for

    14 passes, and then he was taken away to be liquidated.

    15 I have to draw your attention to the

    16 following: I did not exactly see who killed him,

    17 whether it was Goran or Enver, because my brother, who

    18 was very close to me, he shielded me with his body and

    19 said that I shouldn't look in that direction. I

    20 presume that he thought that some of the guards could

    21 have seen me watching this and then I could have been

    22 liquidated because of that.

    23 When I heard two shots, I managed, between my

    24 brother and another man, to glance in that direction.

    25 Danijel lay 20 or 30 metres away from us. He was

  78. 1 wearing a leather jacket.

    2 Q. Mr. I, you haven't answered the question,

    3 with respect. Why was it that the only mention you

    4 make in your statements of Danijel was about him being

    5 beaten at the mosque, and you made no mention whatever

    6 about his murder? Don't go into the details of it

    7 again. Just answer the question, please.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] This is under

    9 point 18 of the summary, Mr. Greaves.

    10 MR. GREAVES: Yes. The summary isn't --

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're talking

    12 about the statement to Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

    13 right?

    14 MR. GREAVES: In the statement to

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the statement to the Office of

    16 the Prosecutor. I haven't mentioned the summary.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. To

    18 the authorities, yes. Excuse me.

    19 A. I shall answer that question. I was not sure

    20 who had done it. That's why I didn't say.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The witness has

    22 already explained the contradictions between one

    23 statement and the other. Let me remind you of that,

    24 Mr. Greaves. Thank you very much.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I have one other

  79. 1 matter to put to him that -- I'm sorry. I hadn't

    2 realised Your Honour was speaking to one of your other

    3 Judges.

    4 Your Honour, there is one other matter which

    5 I want to ask him about as to why that doesn't appear,

    6 if he --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

    8 Excuse me.

    9 MR. GREAVES:

    10 Q. You claim to have seen Goran Jelisic at

    11 Batkovic camp, and you told us the circumstances of

    12 that. In the statements which you made, firstly, to

    13 the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities and to the Office of

    14 the Prosecutor, why didn't you mention that visit,

    15 Mr. I?

    16 A. Because I think that it is necessary for me

    17 to say, at least now, that that man was killed on that

    18 day; however, unfortunately, I did not see who had

    19 killed him. I just saw Goran and Enver coming back

    20 from the murder scene.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That isn't the

    22 question that you were asked.

    23 A. I don't understand. Please, could you

    24 clarify this?

    25 MR. GREAVES:

  80. 1 Q. It's quite simple, Mr. I --

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves

    3 will rephrase his question.

    4 MR. GREAVES:

    5 Q. You have given evidence of having seen Goran

    6 Jelisic at Batkovic camp and the circumstances

    7 surrounding that visit. You did not refer to having

    8 seen Goran Jelisic at Batkovic camp in either your

    9 statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities or to

    10 the Office of the Prosecutor.

    11 Please can you explain to Their Honours why,

    12 if that was a matter which was sufficiently important

    13 for you to tell us about it, you didn't mention it on

    14 those previous occasions.

    15 A. I can give you a quick answer to that

    16 question. The reason is the following: The

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovinian authorities, when they questioned

    18 me, they were only interested in Luka, not in the

    19 Batkovic camp. Also when I gave this other statement,

    20 they were only interested in Luka. When I wanted to

    21 say what else had happened in the camp, they said,

    22 "That's not necessary."

    23 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours can give me a

    24 moment, something has just been drawn to my attention.

    25 [Defence counsel confers]

  81. 1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, a problem has

    2 arisen which I think I'd like to have discussed in the

    3 absence of the witness, please.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Without the

    5 witness or in a closed session?

    6 MR. GREAVES: Without the witness, Your

    7 Honour.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I wish to

    9 consult my colleagues.

    10 [Trial Chamber confers]

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I ask

    12 Mr. Greaves and Mr. Nice or Mr. Tochilovsky to approach

    13 the Judges with an interpreter and to explain what is

    14 at stake. Otherwise, we're going to use up a lot of

    15 time having the witness go in and out of the

    16 courtroom. I would like to have an interpreter and

    17 speak with you.

    18 [Trial Chamber and counsel confer]

    19 [Trial Chamber confers]

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness I,

    21 please take your headset off and please remain seated.

    22 Mr. Greaves, this is a decision which is very

    23 pretentious. We have lost a lot of time in this case,

    24 and the Judges are mindful of the fact that the accused

    25 has rights, but they would like your position to be

  82. 1 perfectly justified, and if it isn't, the Judges

    2 obviously would draw the proper conclusions in the

    3 future.

    4 Please proceed.

    5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, may I draw your

    6 attention to the last answer which the witness gave,

    7 which is this: The reason he gave for not having

    8 discussed the matter beforehand was that in the two

    9 statements he gave, those questioning him were only

    10 interested in Luka camp.

    11 The statement which he has made to the

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities contains in the original

    13 version, but not in the English version which was

    14 disclosed to us, a section which clearly reveals that

    15 this witness was being asked about both Luka and

    16 Batkovic. The English version reads in the following

    17 way: It gives at the head, at the top of the page, an

    18 indication of who it is who's taken the statement. It

    19 then gives a date and the legal basis for taking the

    20 statement, and then there's a line which says "Record

    21 of witness statement," and then there's a section which

    22 is written in English, which is not contained in the

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina statement, which describes the legal

    24 authority for giving of such a decree.

    25 What, in fact, is missing is a paragraph

  83. 1 containing ten lines which details what it was the

    2 person was being asked about and who he was, and it's

    3 that passage that contains in the original but not in

    4 the disclosed English version the fact that this

    5 witness was being asked about Luka and Batkovic. It's

    6 not in the English version.

    7 I've had a quick look at similar statements

    8 that have been disclosed to us, and as far as I can

    9 see, and my recollection is that no statement contains

    10 that similar section. I'm told that the Bosnian

    11 versions all contain that.

    12 The consequences of that are that those who

    13 have to work from the English version are being

    14 deprived of what is plainly an important part of what

    15 should have been disclosed, and what it appears is that

    16 editing has taken place, editing which cannot be

    17 justified on the grounds, for example, of national

    18 security, which has prevented the English-speaking

    19 member of the Defence from knowing properly what, in

    20 fact, the full contents of this statement is.

    21 As I say, it seems to me that this applies to

    22 all the other statements of a similar nature which have

    23 been disclosed to us.

    24 Your Honour will see from the last question

    25 and the last answer that was given that if that had not

  84. 1 been brought to my attention, I would have been

    2 deprived of knowing what it was he was asked about. Of

    3 course, that represents a considerable unfairness to

    4 the defendant because quite clearly the paragraph in

    5 the Bosnian language version reveals that, in fact,

    6 that's what they were directing his attention to.

    7 Your Honour, my concern is this: We need to

    8 know how many other statements contain passages which

    9 have been excised, and that excision needs to be

    10 rectified immediately because, otherwise, we cannot

    11 continue properly to prepare our case if improper and

    12 inadequate disclosure has taken place, and if for some

    13 reason someone has excised from each statement

    14 potentially valuable information.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]

    16 Mr. Tochilovsky?

    17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, I'd like to

    18 make some corrections to what was said by the Defence.

    19 The statement was given by the witness to the

    20 Bosnian authorities in Bosnian, not in English. The

    21 original document is in Bosnian. According to 66 of

    22 our procedures, the statements disclosed to the Defence

    23 should be disclosed in the language the accused

    24 understands. The statements were disclosed in Bosnian,

    25 which both the accused and its lead counsel understand,

  85. 1 their native language.

    2 The English version of this statement is

    3 actually our internal document which was prepared for

    4 our investigators, because our investigators don't

    5 understand Bosnian. They don't speak Bosnian. So

    6 those statements which were taken by he Bosnian

    7 government in Bosnia were translated into English.

    8 So according to our obligation, we disclosed

    9 to the Defence the original document in Bosnian with

    10 all paragraphs. It is in the possession of the

    11 Defence. The Defence has had the opportunity to read

    12 it and to interpret it in any way they want.

    13 With regard to that English version which was

    14 prepared for our internal consumption, let's say, if

    15 Defence is not satisfied with the quality of that

    16 translation, they can return to us all this English

    17 translation because it's not disclosure of statement.

    18 Disclosure of statement is disclosure of statement in

    19 Bosnian.

    20 With regard to this specific paragraph, I

    21 think that that paragraph was taken away, because it

    22 is -- if you look at that paragraph, it is information

    23 which identified the witness. It starts with his name,

    24 with the place of birth, date of birth, the number of

    25 his identity card, where he lived, what was his --

  86. 1 where he worked, who were his relatives.

    2 At the end of this paragraph, which is

    3 separate, it is not part of the body of the statement,

    4 it is the introduction paragraph about the identity of

    5 the person, and this paragraph says that the witness

    6 was asked -- such and such witness with this identity,

    7 he was asked about events which happened in the town of

    8 Brcko, camp Luka and Batkovic, in Gornji Rahic and so

    9 on.

    10 So this paragraph, this information, contains

    11 identity information. It was taken out, I think, by

    12 our investigators, but the statement, the original

    13 statement, was disclosed without any redaction. As we

    14 received it from the Office of the Prosecutor, it was

    15 entirely in the same format disclosed to the Defence,

    16 and Defence has it in Bosnian, in the original language

    17 of the statement, in the language that both the accused

    18 and lead counsel understand. Thanks.

    19 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, with great

    20 respect, my learned friend has just answered the point

    21 that he made. It has nothing do with concealing the

    22 identity of the witness if in the original all that

    23 information is given to the Defence in any event. So

    24 the point that he's making about this is the reason why

    25 it's done is absolute nonsense, with respect to him.

  87. 1 Secondly, can I draw Your Honours' attention

    2 to the rule which governs disclosure of potentially

    3 exculpatory material, which is Rule 68, and the

    4 terminology of that Rule.

    5 It reads as follows:

    6 "The Prosecutor shall, as soon as

    7 practicable, disclose to the Defence the existence of

    8 evidence known to the Prosecutor which in any way tends

    9 to suggest the innocence or mitigate the guilt of the

    10 accused or may affect the credibility of Prosecution

    11 evidence."

    12 Your Honour, it is under that rule which

    13 potentially inconsistent statements are disclosed,

    14 because that is evidence which may affect the

    15 credibility of a witness.

    16 Your Honour, that is the entire text of the

    17 rule, as I understand it. It makes no mention of

    18 disclosure under that Rule being made in a language

    19 which the defendant understands.

    20 The Rule which does mention that is

    21 Rule 66, which confines itself to two classes of

    22 documents. Rule 66 says:

    23 "Subject to the provisions of Rules 53 and

    24 69, the Prosecutor shall make available to the Defence,

    25 in a language which the accused understands ..."

  88. 1 And it then identifies two categories of

    2 documents. This document does not fall into either of

    3 those two categories, with great respect. And, Your

    4 Honour, those who framed the rules must clearly have

    5 had in mind that that requirement concerning language

    6 should be specifically restricted to those classes of

    7 documents.

    8 Your Honour, we submit again that there has

    9 been a disclosure of a document which has been edited

    10 in a way which is not justified by the needs of --

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Just a moment,

    12 Mr. Greaves. The statement that was made before the

    13 Bosnian authorities, was that statement given to you in

    14 a language that the accused understands and

    15 Mr. Londrovic understands in its most complete

    16 form, "Yes" or "No"?

    17 MR. GREAVES: Yes, it was. Yes --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me turn to

    19 Mr. Londrovic, who is the lead counsel.

    20 Did you have that statement? Mr. Londrovic,

    21 answer us. Did you have the statement made to the

    22 Bosnian authorities, and you read each of those in

    23 order to bring out contradictions between that

    24 statement and the statement made to the Prosecutor?

    25 The entire statement, did you have it?

  89. 1 MR. LONDROVIC: I personally did, Your

    2 Honour.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Did Mr. Greaves

    4 have the complete statement?

    5 MR. LONDROVIC: Mr. Greaves, in the English

    6 version of a statement that he had, he did not have the

    7 complete text.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Are you chief

    9 counsel, are you lead counsel, Mr. Londrovic, for the

    10 Defence?

    11 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

    12 I am lead counsel, but --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you have an

    14 interpreter paid by the Tribunal to facilitate your

    15 work with your co-counsel, Mr. Greaves, in the

    16 team, "Yes" or "No."

    17 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me now turn

    19 to my colleagues.

    20 [Trial Chamber confers]

    21 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I just add one

    22 matter, please?

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But one point,

    24 one point, because we've lost a lot of time now. We've

    25 spent a lot of time. I'm going to give you the right

  90. 1 to speak -- to say one point and only one. Then we'll

    2 take a break.

    3 Mr. Londrovic is the leader. He's had the

    4 version in Serbo-Croat since the beginning. It's up to

    5 you to coordinate things. In all the trials here, it

    6 is frequently the Serbo-Croat part that does the

    7 cross-examination when it is a Serbo-Croatian-speaking

    8 witness. It's not our fault that you are speaking

    9 English and only speaking English.

    10 I ask you to deal with the one point and only

    11 the one point that you can speak about now. We're

    12 wasting a lot of time, and I'm not prepared to continue

    13 wasting this much time. One point and one alone.

    14 Quickly, please.

    15 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, the registry does

    16 not pay for documents which are already placed in the

    17 hands of the Defence, in English, to be translated

    18 again and it's impossible for us to secure that. We do

    19 have an interpreter, but we have not been given

    20 permission to have documents which have been given to

    21 us in English retranslated, because she would simply

    22 not be paid.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. I

    24 think that you have an interpreter. First of all, you

    25 had a statement in Serbo-Croat. It was given to the

  91. 1 Defence team's leader, Mr. Londrovic. You have a

    2 translation system and interpretation system. There

    3 are contradictions or perhaps there are gaps in the

    4 translation. This is not the problem for the timing of

    5 the Judges. We've wasted a lot of time.

    6 We're going to take a 15-minute break, and we

    7 will resume with the cross-examination, and I will ask

    8 you to complete it within a minimal amount of time, 15

    9 minutes at the most. Court stands adjourned.

    10 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

    11 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will resume

    13 the hearing. Have the accused brought in, please.

    14 [The accused entered court]

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Pursuant to

    16 90(G) and 90(H), to which I would like to refer you but

    17 which I've quoted several times already, Mr. Greaves, I

    18 ask you to finish your cross-examination in 15

    19 minutes. We grant you 15 minutes to complete your

    20 cross-examination. Thank you. It is about a quarter

    21 after, twenty after four. We give you 15 minutes to

    22 get to the essentials about what was dealt with in the

    23 examination-in-chief.

    24 Please proceed. The floor is yours.

    25 MR. GREAVES:

  92. 1 Q. Mr. I, I'd like to turn now, please, to the

    2 list of people about whom you were asked in

    3 examination-in-chief, and if I'm --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Ordinarily, we

    5 would move into a private session when we deal with the

    6 list, at least that's what we decided a few moments

    7 ago, and I think everybody agreed.

    8 Therefore, Mr. Registrar, I ask that this be

    9 in private session.

    10 [Private session]

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 [Open session]


    13 Q. Was it true that the Muslims constituted the

    14 majority of the population of the town?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Those areas that were shelled, were they

    17 Serb-populated areas or not? Were the areas shelled

    18 Serbian-populated areas or Muslim-populated areas?

    19 A. Serb areas were not shelled at all. The

    20 shells were aimed at areas and at places such as Brka

    21 Palanka, Rahic, Maoca, and other suburban settlements

    22 such as Dizdarusa, Klanac, Begovaca, Brod, which were

    23 almost exclusively Muslim, Suljagica Sokak.

    24 Q. My last question is: In an answer to the

    25 Defence, you said some Serbs from mixed marriages were

  100. 1 among those detained in the barracks. Does it mean

    2 that those Serbs were married to non-Serbs, including

    3 Muslims? Is that correct?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. What do you mean by "mixed marriages"? What

    6 do you mean by that?

    7 A. I suppose a Serb mother and father, a Muslim,

    8 or the other way around. Those people were released

    9 immediately.

    10 Q. Thank you.

    11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further

    12 questions, Your Honours.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. We

    14 are almost finished with your testimony, Witness I, but

    15 I know my colleagues have a few questions to ask. Let

    16 me first turn to Judge Riad.

    17 Questioned by the Court:

    18 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness I. I

    19 would just like to understand some certain things, and

    20 perhaps you can help me.

    21 You were detained on May 4, 1992. Do you

    22 have an idea why you were arrested or detained? Did

    23 they tell you or did you try to find out?

    24 A. I still don't know why. I had a number of

    25 friends among people of other origin. That is, I had

  101. 1 more Serb and Croat friends than Muslims before the

    2 war. My father brought up me that way, not to

    3 distinguish people between their ethnic origin, only to

    4 distinguish between good and bad people.

    5 Unfortunately, when it started in Brcko, I

    6 was surprised to see how those friends of mine

    7 behaved. That is, not all of them but some of them

    8 would pass me by without even saying hello. I didn't

    9 expect anything more than that, just, "Hello," from

    10 them, but somebody -- somebody instilled, somebody

    11 imparted a hatred, somebody instilled hatred in their

    12 subconscious and they practically changed overnight. A

    13 few months before that -- a couple of months before

    14 that we would go to discotheques, coffee shops.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. You just mentioned

    16 also that a few years before you had an incident in a

    17 cafe. Was that with Serbs? Did you take a stand

    18 against the Serbs in this incident in the cafe?

    19 A. No. That incident was of a short duration.

    20 Quite simply, the place was about to close and I was

    21 about to go home, but Ranko Cesic came up, and he was

    22 quite under the influence, and we had an argument and

    23 he slapped me in the face. So I, of course, paid him

    24 back. That was why I was afraid that he might see me

    25 in Luka. But that happened two years before the

  102. 1 beginning of the war.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: That had no relation with your

    3 arrest?

    4 A. No.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: It was only for ethnic reasons,

    6 because you are a Bosnian Muslim?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: So why did they hate after that,

    9 because, as you said, you denounced four people? That

    10 was the reason?

    11 A. I doubt that that was the reason. No. They

    12 would have released me immediately, because a couple of

    13 days had passed since I gave those four names. So that

    14 was not the reason.

    15 The reason was that I was a good friend, a

    16 good chum of that Dragan Tanaskovic, and when he got

    17 home he told his mother that he had seen me at the

    18 barracks, and she told him that he should go and find

    19 me and not to come home without me. It was his mother,

    20 because she was very fond of me.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Can I understand that if it was

    22 not for this friend, for this Serb friend, you would

    23 not have gone out, or anybody else would not be

    24 liberated if he did not have a Serb friend?

    25 A. Yes. Yes, that is it.

  103. 1 JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that the man

    2 named Danijel Ibrahimovic was detained because he had a

    3 Scorpion military gun and then he was liquidated. Was

    4 this one of the reasons why people are liquidated or it

    5 could have happened even without that?

    6 A. It could have happened even without that, and

    7 in many instances that was the case, even without it.

    8 Quite simply -- I shall give you an example.

    9 In the building in the Es settlement, and

    10 then next to that building there was another building,

    11 and they took away a guy from that building -- and he

    12 was the state champion in kayak -- only because he was

    13 good looking, because he was an athlete, and because he

    14 had a good car.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: So that was also a reason for

    16 being liquidated?

    17 A. That's right.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: It could happen to anyone, is

    19 that what you want to say? To the rich and to the

    20 poor?

    21 A. I can give you another example. At Luka, at

    22 night, when it was dark you can't really see who's

    23 who. They simply pull somebody by his sleeve and say,

    24 "You stand up." They don't know who he is, they can't

    25 see him, but they take him away and liquidate him. Or

  104. 1 just kicks him, pushes him with his foot and says, "You

    2 stand up." There were quite a number of such cases.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: When they stand up, what do they

    4 tell you?

    5 A. Nothing. They simply take him out and shoot

    6 him dead. He had no right of --

    7 JUDGE RIAD: -- Bosniaks?

    8 A. Because he was a Bosniak or a Croat. I did

    9 not spend a night at Luka.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: [Question inaudible]

    11 A. For no other reason. Only because he was a

    12 Bosniak or a Croat.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    15 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues?

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    17 Mr. President.

    18 Witness I, good afternoon. I have basically

    19 two questions I want to ask you.

    20 You said that when you were in the mosque, he

    21 said that only five per cent should remain. Did I

    22 understand you correctly? These are my questions: Who

    23 said that?

    24 A. They were getting into the mosque non-stop.

    25 Soldiers in uniform were getting into the mosque

  105. 1 non-stop. They had different insignia. Some belonged

    2 to Seselj, others belonged to Arkan. There were quite

    3 a few of these paramilitary formations.

    4 As they would enter --

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But were

    6 these paramilitary, or military Serbian formations, or

    7 were they others?

    8 A. Serb.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] About whom

    10 did they say that? Five per cent of whom?

    11 A. Five per cent of the total population of

    12 Brcko, of Bosniaks. Only Bosniaks and Croats were

    13 referred to.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why did

    15 they only want to leave five per cent?

    16 A. That would be enough people for them to sweep

    17 the streets and to work in night-shifts. So it is this

    18 hard labour that these people would do.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That

    20 basically was my first question.

    21 My second question is the following: You

    22 also said, about the two police inspectors who were

    23 involved in the Bosnian authority's interrogations, I

    24 believe that you spoke about a list of people who were

    25 supposed to be released or killed because they were not

  106. 1 desirable in life. I'm not sure that I understood that

    2 correctly. Is that what you said?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My question

    5 is whether you know who drew up the list.

    6 A. I'll give you a piece of information. When I

    7 was released from Luka and when I was in Es, a Serb

    8 friend came to pick me up. He wanted me to turn his TV

    9 set on by using a battery. His name was Zoran

    10 Markovic.

    11 At that time in Brcko, there was no

    12 electricity in private buildings and apartments, and a

    13 football game, a soccer game, was being played for the

    14 cup. He came to pick me up to make it possible for him

    15 to watch the game.

    16 As I was sitting in his room, he showed me a

    17 list of persons, the names of persons whom he was

    18 supposed to liquidate, but he said to me that he phoned

    19 these people at night, not exactly all of them, telling

    20 them to hide, to go away. Everything was planned in

    21 advance.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] By whom?

    23 Everything had been planned in advance. Who planned

    24 all of that?

    25 A. I don't know who the main person in charge of

  107. 1 this project was, but when you put all these things

    2 together in a certain order, I think that the national

    3 parties are to be blamed for it, that it's the fault of

    4 the SDS.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The people

    6 in the mosque who said only five per cent should be

    7 left, the two police inspectors who had a list of

    8 people who had to either be killed or released, did

    9 those people have any relationship with Goran Jelisic?

    10 A. As for these people in the mosque, I'm not

    11 sure. As far as those in Luka are concerned, I imagine

    12 it could be so, because Goran Jelisic didn't know these

    13 people in Brcko. Somebody had to point them out to him

    14 and to say who was who, to set these ID cards aside.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Something

    16 else with which I will finish. You spoke about the

    17 list -- well, everything that you say to me now did you

    18 already say before either to the Prosecutor or to the

    19 Bosnian authorities, or is this the first time that

    20 you're speaking about that?

    21 A. This is the first time that I'm speaking

    22 about this at length.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Why are you

    24 speaking about this for the first time today in more

    25 detail? Why?

  108. 1 A. I'm only going to tell you one thing. When I

    2 made my first statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    3 authorities, I gave it for three days. The man who was

    4 questioning me said that my statement was more

    5 important than that of any other inmate. However, he

    6 did not have the patience to work with me any longer.

    7 He was too tired, exhausted. Although I insisted on

    8 being heard out, he said, "This will suffice."

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The

    10 statements that you made to the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    11 authorities, the investigators -- were the

    12 investigators asking you questions and then did you

    13 answer, or did you give a spontaneous statement that

    14 the investigators noted down, or did things occur in a

    15 different way?

    16 A. All of this happened spontaneously. I must

    17 tell you, though, that had I given a statement before I

    18 was taken to Batkovic, as soon as I was released from

    19 Luka, it would have been more precise and detailed.

    20 However, we were taken to the camp in order to be

    21 brainwashed. We ate food without any salt over there,

    22 very small quantities at that, and that, in addition to

    23 time, has affected our memory. So I could not remember

    24 everything when I was exchanged from the Batkovic

    25 camp. As a person thinks about what had happened, he

  109. 1 remembers these details as well.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I have no

    3 further questions. Thank you very much, Witness I.

    4 Thank you very much, Mr. President.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

    6 have only one question to ask.

    7 After all of these ordeals that you went

    8 through at the Luka camp, in the end what is your

    9 definitive impression that the accused played? Did he

    10 give you the impression of directing the operations or

    11 of simply being someone who carried things out? Could

    12 you give us some specifics about that?

    13 A. I could say that he was both. He carried out

    14 orders but he also selected his victims through his own

    15 free will. He could have not shot dead someone even if

    16 he were told to do so, but he did quite a few things on

    17 his own.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes,

    19 please go ahead.

    20 A. For example -- for example, he didn't have to

    21 beat people so badly with such big batons. If he was

    22 supposed to kill a man, he could have killed him

    23 immediately, but he would kill him with an object, a

    24 baton or a stick or something, and then finally he

    25 would cut his suffering short; he would shoot him

  110. 1 finally.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. You

    3 have finished. You have shown a great deal of patience

    4 and the Tribunal expresses all its gratitude to you.

    5 We will take some precautions before the next

    6 witness is brought in. The blinds have to be drawn and

    7 the Victims and Witnesses Section will take care of

    8 you.

    9 We wish you a calm return. You have done

    10 your duty. You've shown a great deal of courage in

    11 doing so, and you did, and we are grateful to you for

    12 that. Thank you.

    13 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher,

    15 that's enough. I don't think there's anybody there.

    16 [The witness withdrew]

    17 [The witness entered court]

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Put on the

    19 microphones, please. Do you hear me?

    20 Mr. Usher, he can't answer. You've got to

    21 turn the microphone on. How do you expect me to speak

    22 to him? How do you expect him to answer me?

    23 Do you hear me?

    24 You should have let him remain seated.

    25 All right. You have to read your solemn

  111. 1 declaration now. Please proceed.

    2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    4 truth.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    6 Please be seated. We're going to call you Witness J

    7 because you are a witness who is covered by protective

    8 measures which the Tribunal has ordered. Thank you for

    9 having come.

    10 First you're going to be asked questions by

    11 the Prosecutor. I'm sure he will explain how this is

    12 going to take place. Most likely tomorrow you will be

    13 asked questions by Defence counsel for the accused.

    14 This is the trial initiated by the Prosecutor

    15 against Goran Jelisic, who is present, to your left, in

    16 this courtroom.

    17 I see Mr. Nice is going to conduct the

    18 examination-in-chief.

    19 Please proceed, Mr. Nice.

    20 The identity of the witness. Please show him

    21 the piece of paper to show that he can recognise his

    22 name. But don't state your name. Thank you.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice?


    25 Examined by Mr. Nice:

  112. 1 Q. Witness J, have you considered a summary of

    2 your potential evidence now before you, and is it

    3 accurate?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Before the conflict, did you work as an

    6 economist for a company?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. On the 30th of April of 1992, were you with

    9 your family in Klanac, a predominantly Muslim area, but

    10 did you move on the 3rd of May to Kolobara, where you

    11 were for a time in the basement of another house?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. On the 4th of May, were you arrested by Serb

    14 soldiers, some in JNA uniforms and some in the blue

    15 uniforms of the Civilian Protection Forces?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Were you separated, men from women, and the

    18 men taken to the mosque, your estimate of the number of

    19 men in the mosque being that there were how many there?

    20 A. Up to 200 at the most.

    21 Q. In the mosque, were you guarded by uniformed

    22 men, some of whom you thought you could identify as to

    23 their organisation?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And that organisation you thought was?

  113. 1 A. Yes. Yes.

    2 Q. Which groups did you think they were a member

    3 of?

    4 A. There were several groups. One belonged to

    5 Arkan's soldiers, the others were the so-called White

    6 Eagles, and other different soldiers.

    7 Q. Did you --

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

    9 When you give your answer, please try to face the

    10 Judges, Witness J. Thank you.

    11 MR. NICE:

    12 Q. During your stay at the mosque, were some

    13 people interrogated?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. In particular, what type of people or what --

    16 yes. What people were interrogated while at the

    17 mosque?

    18 A. Well, I mostly remember Papa having been

    19 interrogated, that is actually Ahmet Hodzic, and a few

    20 other younger men whom I knew but not by their names.

    21 Q. Papa having, before the conflict, been

    22 associated with the local SDA as its chairman; is that

    23 correct?

    24 A. He was the president of the local community

    25 of Kolobara and a member of the SDA.

  114. 1 Q. Was there a young man there who tried to

    2 escape?

    3 A. Yes. That was Zikret Suljic, nicknamed

    4 Kike.

    5 Q. What happened to him when he tried to escape?

    6 A. In that general commotion, a soldier, who I

    7 think belonged to Arkan's soldiers, judging by his

    8 uniform, he ordered us to lie on the ground, and he

    9 shot a round at him. He shot him in the back when he

    10 had already reached the window of the mosque, using one

    11 single round only.

    12 Q. Were you moved from the mosque to another

    13 location? If so, where?

    14 A. Yes, I was moved, together with about 15

    15 other citizens, to the military barracks.

    16 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I haven't actually

    17 asked this witness to look at this map beforehand, but

    18 if he can help us with it, then the Court will be able

    19 to have a map which will throw some further light on

    20 the case you're dealing with.

    21 Can the witness have this one for the ELMO?

    22 There are larger, rather more convenient-sized maps for

    23 the Court and for my learned friends opposite. If this

    24 witness cannot deal with the map, then I will get

    25 another witness who can.

  115. 1 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit

    2 33.

    3 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    4 Q. Are you able to read maps, Witness J?

    5 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there's only one

    6 copy. I wonder whether it would be possible to have a

    7 second copy between the two of us, please.

    8 MR. NICE: Coming.

    9 MR. GREAVES: I'm most grateful.

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. Witness J, can you read maps?

    12 A. Well, yes.

    13 MR. NICE: If you would put the river at the

    14 top, that's the way around. Thank you.

    15 Q. Witness J, can you be given, please, the

    16 pointer? When you're pointing things out to us, will

    17 you stay in your seat so that your identity is not

    18 revealed. Use the pointer. If you point something out

    19 on the map, not on the screen, if you point it out on

    20 the device to your right-hand side where the usher is

    21 indicating, we'll see it on the screen.

    22 Very quickly, because the Judges have yet to

    23 see, I think, a map, unless I'm mistaken in my memory,

    24 does this show the river running from northwest to the

    25 east with what was the main bridge across it? Just

  116. 1 point to the bridge.

    2 A. [Indicating]

    3 Q. I don't know if you're able here to show us

    4 where the mosque was. If yes, point to it; if not,

    5 I'll get that dealt with in another way.

    6 A. [Indicating]

    7 MR. NICE: He indicates an area towards the

    8 top left of the map.

    9 Q. The barracks to which you had moved, where

    10 are they to be found? It may be that we will need to

    11 have the bottom part of the map in view. Maybe not.

    12 A. [Indicating]

    13 Q. You're indicating an area in the middle of

    14 the town. There is, we see, on the map, right at the

    15 bottom right-hand corner, another area that's marked as

    16 army barracks, but those weren't the barracks to which

    17 you were taken.

    18 A. [No audible response]

    19 Q. Very well. We will leave the map on the ELMO

    20 because I will refer to it again in a minute.

    21 You were taken to the barracks, and were

    22 other men from areas of Brcko and elsewhere also

    23 brought there?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. In particular, from what other area did men

  117. 1 arrive?

    2 A. Most were from Brcko Novo, Mujkici, Meraje.

    3 Q. What are those areas? Are they areas of

    4 particular ethnic composition or, to be precise, were

    5 they areas of particular ethnic composition at the

    6 time?

    7 A. Brcko Novo is a mixed neighbourhood, and

    8 Meraje and Mujkici were predominantly Muslim.

    9 Q. Is Mujkici in Brcko or is it in an area

    10 outside Brcko?

    11 A. Well, it's approximately about 1.000 metres

    12 away from the mosque where we were. It's by the

    13 stadium.

    14 Q. Very well. The stadium, I think we can see

    15 on this map. At least I can see one stadium on it.

    16 Can you see the stadium on this map, which is near to

    17 Mujkici?

    18 A. [Indicating]

    19 Q. Yes. It's in the top left-hand corner.

    20 Thank you.

    21 Following your move to the barracks and,

    22 indeed, on the following day, did you volunteer to do

    23 something?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Namely?

  118. 1 A. To clean up glass around the SUP building

    2 from the effects of the detonation after the bridge had

    3 exploded.

    4 Q. If we can just move the plan down a bit so

    5 that we can see the bridge. It may not be possible

    6 with a plan of this scale to identify precisely where

    7 the centre of town was, but we can see where the bridge

    8 that was blown up was. Can you point out roughly where

    9 it was that you went in order to clear up?

    10 A. [Indicating]

    11 Q. Thank you very much.

    12 MR. NICE: Next exhibit, please.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit

    14 34.

    15 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

    16 Q. Does this aerial view show that part of the

    17 town to which you went when you went as a volunteer to

    18 clear up?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Why did you volunteer to go?

    21 A. Until then, I wasn't aware that a war had

    22 started and what I'd got into, and I thought I might

    23 thus reach the Sava and cross it and get away.

    24 Q. Looking at this photograph, can you point out

    25 the police station there, please?

  119. 1 A. Yes, I do. [Indicating]

    2 Q. That building we see, and this is for

    3 purposes of orientating ourselves for the next

    4 photograph, has in the front of it three trees. Do you

    5 see those three trees, the one on the left and then two

    6 trees to the right-hand side?

    7 A. [No audible response]

    8 Q. If you look, please, at the next photograph.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 35.

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. Does this photograph show on the right-hand

    12 side the police station and then, substantially in the

    13 middle of the photograph, those same two trees that we

    14 were looking at from the aerial view?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Returning mentally to the aerial view, this

    17 is looking from the top of the photograph down towards

    18 the police station.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. When you went to the town to clear up, did

    21 you go into that police station?

    22 A. Not immediately, not my group. A group did

    23 go in, about 10 of them, and about 17 of us stayed

    24 outside.

    25 Q. Subsequently, did you go into that police

  120. 1 station and, indeed, were you interrogated there?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. When you went in or while you were inside,

    4 did you hear something and did things happen?

    5 A. When I entered the last room on the first

    6 floor, escorted by two men in camouflage uniforms, I

    7 heard gunfire outside, so that those two soldiers left

    8 that office where I was. They ran out and I also tried

    9 to run out after them; that is, I left that room.

    10 Q. What did you see on your way out or on

    11 leaving?

    12 A. Midway down the passage, Senad Muranjkovic

    13 called. Petar was lying there and he was holding his

    14 leg, and I could see that he was wounded. In the

    15 adjacent room, to the left-hand side as you enter,

    16 there was Sead Karagic also lying down. Half of his

    17 body was in the room and his legs were outside, and he

    18 had a mason's hatchet in his back.

    19 Q. Were those two of the men with whom you'd

    20 been associated in coming to town?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Was there a third man, Hasan Jasarevic, who

    23 had been in your group?

    24 A. He must have entered and got scared and tried

    25 to escape from the building, and they fired because he

  121. 1 was trying to escape.

    2 Q. Did you see anything of his attempt to

    3 escape?

    4 A. No. At that time, I was in that room; that

    5 is, in that last room.

    6 Q. Would you just answer this "Yes" or "No":

    7 Were you told what happened to him; "Yes" or "No"?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Who told you?

    10 A. Guys who were clearing up outside, who were

    11 not inside.

    12 Q. What did they tell you had happened to him?

    13 A. They said that he'd been caught in front of

    14 Oslobodenje kiosk and that Goran Jelisic had taken him

    15 down to Agro Banka, between SUP and Agro Banka, and

    16 that there he shot him dead, with one bullet fired at

    17 the back of his head.

    18 Q. If we look at the photograph still on the

    19 ELMO screen, does that show the kiosk and/or does that

    20 show the bank? If so, please point them out.

    21 A. The kiosk is here [Indicating], and you can't

    22 see the bank for these, but that is where it should

    23 be.

    24 Q. We can see the word "Banka" just on top of

    25 it. Thank you.

  122. 1 After that incident at the police station,

    2 what did you do? Did you go back to complete the

    3 interrogation, did you go to carry on clearing up, or

    4 what?

    5 A. I went on clearing up.

    6 Q. What part of the area were you clearing and

    7 how were you doing it?

    8 A. Well, I was clearing up here [Indicating],

    9 this street here, from the SUP entrance to the kiosk

    10 and to the Oslobodenje cinema; that is, the former

    11 cinema.

    12 MR. NICE: May the witness please have the

    13 previous photograph on the screen?

    14 Q. Can you, by use of the pointer, show us what

    15 area of the street you were clearing of whatever you

    16 were clearing it?

    17 A. [Indicating]

    18 Q. Yes. While you were doing that, did you see

    19 something of a man from Sinteraj?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Where was he? What was he doing? What

    22 happened to him?

    23 A. He was here [indicating] at the moment when I

    24 saw him. I was clearing up here, and he was moving

    25 down the street, escorted by two policemen walking on

  123. 1 his sides and Goran following.

    2 Q. At that time, did you know who either of

    3 these policemen were?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. And, indeed, at that time, although you've

    6 used the name Goran, did you know who Goran was, or did

    7 you get to know him at a later stage?

    8 A. I met him later or, rather, he introduced

    9 himself to us.

    10 Q. Later?

    11 A. Later, later, yes.

    12 Q. Would you please look at the next

    13 photograph? But leave that photograph on the ELMO for

    14 the time being, if you would be so good.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 36.

    16 MR. NICE:

    17 Q. Before we put this photograph on the ELMO,

    18 can you just stay with the existing aerial view, and

    19 can you follow the road you were sweeping towards the

    20 left? And then can you trace a lane that runs down on

    21 the aerial view with your pointer and tell us what that

    22 lane contains?

    23 A. SUP, Oslobodenje cinema, the Posavina Hotel,

    24 the crafts centre, the barbers.

    25 Q. What's on the lane going down from that

  124. 1 junction that you've just crossed? What's on that

    2 little lane there, if you can remember?

    3 A. This one here [indicating], you mean?

    4 Q. No, the other one. I'm going down on the

    5 photograph.

    6 A. This here [indicating]?

    7 Q. No. Down.

    8 A. This one goes towards the Sava.

    9 Q. No. Perhaps you can have a look at the next

    10 photograph, please.

    11 MR. NICE: Just lay that one on top of it,

    12 please. Thank you very much.

    13 Q. Do you recognise that street or lane?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Looking at the buildings on the right-hand

    16 side of it, which are comparatively modern than the

    17 buildings on the left, can you now, please, go back to

    18 the previous photograph, if the usher would be good

    19 enough to take the top one off, and tell us where you

    20 think that lane is.

    21 A. [Indicating]

    22 Q. Thank you very much. So we now have a

    23 photograph of that lane.

    24 When you saw the man with the two police

    25 officers and the man who was subsequently to introduce

  125. 1 himself as Goran, where were they going, and then what

    2 happened?

    3 A. They were moving towards this small street,

    4 towards this lane next to the craft centre, and a shot

    5 could be heard, and then Goran came back.

    6 Q. Did the young man come back or not?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Did you later see a vehicle driving to the

    9 area where you'd seen the young man go?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. What sort of vehicle?

    12 A. It was a refrigerator truck of the Bimeks

    13 company.

    14 Q. Did it go into that lane or just to the mouth

    15 of the lane or somewhere else? Tell us.

    16 A. I'm not really quite certain whether it was

    17 he entered, but I know he went down there. I could not

    18 really look how the vehicle moved, but I know he went

    19 in the direction of that street.

    20 Q. The man you'd seen following the two

    21 policemen and the young man, how was it that he

    22 introduced himself to you? Tell us about that.

    23 A. Well, as I worked, he often -- as a matter of

    24 fact, I didn't know it was Goran, but we come and go.

    25 At some moment he lined us up here in front of the SUP

  126. 1 entrance, in three lines, and ordered us to look at

    2 this flag and sing Serb songs, I think, march songs or

    3 national songs.

    4 Then he was sitting on a wooden chair, and

    5 told us that he was Goran Jelisic, called "Serb Adolf,"

    6 and that we should remember that name.

    7 Q. How many of you was it that he had singing to

    8 the Serb flag?

    9 A. Fifteen, sixteen, or thereabouts. It

    10 depended. Some people remained longer in the upper

    11 part of the building, that is, cleaning the windows of

    12 the showers and things like that, but we were some 15

    13 or 16 perhaps.

    14 Q. The first interrogation that you had had been

    15 interrupted by what had happened outside or both inside

    16 and outside the police station. Were you interrogated

    17 again?

    18 A. I was not.

    19 Q. By whom?

    20 A. I said I was not interrogated.

    21 Q. I'm sorry.

    22 A. If I may say, at the beginning I was

    23 interrogated by Goran but I did not know his name at

    24 the time. It was in the beginning, and it was by Goran

    25 and a policeman in a blue uniform. As we carried the

  127. 1 splinters, the glass, they intercepted us and told us

    2 to put the glass down and said, "Let's talk about SDA,

    3 young Muslims, ZNGs and the like." After that they

    4 took us into the SUP building, but that was right at

    5 the beginning.

    6 Q. I see. Well, then I must ask you a little

    7 bit more about that. When you were interrogated or

    8 questioned by Goran, what did he say? What, if

    9 anything, did he do?

    10 A. During the interrogation, as I did not tell

    11 them anything, he beat me with his baton on my

    12 shoulders and on the head, and after a stronger blow I

    13 put my hand up to shield myself, and he hit me here on

    14 the knuckles and injured me. As the baton fell down --

    15 flew down, of course he cursed my balija mother, how

    16 dare I raise my hand against him, and I believe four

    17 bullets fell out of his reserve magazine, I think,

    18 which he had on his belt.

    19 He ordered the soldiers to remove me away,

    20 and promised me that I'd be the last one to be killed

    21 in that group because I could carry that glass [sic].

    22 Q. Could you carry -- what was it you were able

    23 to carry?

    24 A. The dead ones. The dead ones which I guess

    25 he planned killing that day.

  128. 1 Q. And to be quite sure about, insofar as you

    2 can help us, the location of things in order, this

    3 questioning by Goran and his saying you were going to

    4 be the last one to be killed occurred right at the

    5 beginning, before there had been the commotion at the

    6 police station?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And it was after that that you went and --

    9 A. Before. It was before the commotion.

    10 Q. Yes. So after that you went and swept the

    11 streets, and after that you saw the young man from

    12 Sinteraj go down the lane?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did you also see something that day of a man

    15 known as Papa?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Before or after your interrogation?

    18 A. After the interrogation.

    19 Q. What were you doing at the time and what did

    20 you see, please?

    21 A. Well, I was sweeping the street right there

    22 in front of the building, and I saw him come out from

    23 the SUP building with a hand bandaged and visibly

    24 limping on one foot. So he was moving slowly. Goran

    25 followed after him, and there were two soldiers, one on

  129. 1 each side, escorting him. And --

    2 Q. Just a moment.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I was simply

    4 looking at what time it is. I think the interpreters

    5 are tired and, in any case, since you won't be able to

    6 finish this afternoon, I think, Mr. Nice, that it might

    7 be a point to stop.

    8 MR. NICE: I have to deal with the list,

    9 which always takes some time.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I suggest that

    11 we resume tomorrow at 2.00. Is that correct?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President, at 2.00.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. The

    14 hearing will resume tomorrow.

    15 Witness J, we wish you a good evening, and

    16 you will be properly taken care of.

    17 We will resume tomorrow again, at 2.00.

    18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    19 at 5.37 p.m., to be reconvened on

    20 Wednesday, the 8th day of September,

    21 1999 at 2.00 p.m.