1. 1 Thursday, 9th September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    6 seated.

    7 First, I would like to say good morning to

    8 everybody and to be sure that everybody can hear me.

    9 Do the interpreters hear me? Yes. Good morning. Very

    10 well.

    11 I won't ask you, Mr. Registrar, to have the

    12 accused brought in because we just learned that the

    13 accused is ill; he saw a physician. I was also

    14 concerned about whether he would give his counsel his

    15 consent for the hearings to proceed without him.

    16 Mr. Greaves, I believe that the consent was

    17 given; is that correct?

    18 MR. GREAVES: I understand both from my

    19 learned friend, Mr. Londrovic, who has spoken to him

    20 today, and from Mr. Rohde of the Defence counsel

    21 liaison unit, who has also been in communication with

    22 him, that he has indicated, for the time being, that he

    23 is prepared for the trial to continue without him.

    24 Whether that remains the case throughout or he changes

    25 his mind in regard to tomorrow, I do not know.

  2. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I believe that

    2 according to what Mr. Rohde said to me, this would hold

    3 for the whole day because the physician said that he

    4 should rest all day long. I don't really think that

    5 we're not going to be able to continue without him --

    6 that we are going to -- we have to continue without him

    7 all through the day, but we can do that once you've

    8 been given the consent of the accused; isn't that

    9 correct, Mr. Londrovic?

    10 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

    11 Honours. I spoke with Goran by telephone this

    12 morning. As a matter of fact, he called me and told me

    13 that he had some problems last night, it is probably

    14 his stomach or ulcer, and tomorrow he is to have his

    15 blood taken for analysis. But in view of the situation

    16 the victims are in and that they have to stay in The

    17 Hague, yes, he said that he would be quite prepared to

    18 have the trial go on today without him.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    20 Then I would, first of all, like to say good morning to

    21 Witness K and ask how Witness K feels. Mr. Goran

    22 Jelisic is being taken care of. People are paying

    23 attention to him. He has that right, that right

    24 recognised to him, not only to be ill but not to attend

    25 part of his only trial. The Judges, and my colleagues

  3. 1 agree with me, first of all, tell me that I would like

    2 to turn to the witness and ask the witness how she

    3 feels today.

    4 How do you feel today, Madam? Do you feel

    5 better?

    6 THE WITNESS: ... force myself. I have to do

    7 it. I feel a lot of pain.

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the second

    9 witness's microphone put on too, please, and brought

    10 closer to her?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I know that

    12 this is a very difficult and painful moment for you.

    13 What I ask is that if you don't feel well, just stop,

    14 ask us to stop, and we will suspend the hearing. The

    15 accused isn't here for the reasons that have been

    16 explained. I think that you should be able to manage

    17 to feel more serene. If you don't, you can stop and

    18 you can count on all of us who are here, that's

    19 including Defence counsel.

    20 Mr. Nice, if you would continue, please, with

    21 the sensitivity which you know how to demonstrate in

    22 this type of case. Thank you.

    23 WITNESS: WITNESS K [Resumed]

    24 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    25 Examined by Mr. Nice:

  4. 1 Q. Witness K, I think there's been some

    2 discussion or consideration given to whether you would

    3 find it easier to give your evidence in English or in

    4 Bosnian. It may be that you've decided that you'll be

    5 happier at least to try speaking in Bosnian and

    6 listening over the headphones; is that the case?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Well, then take your time. I'll speak to

    9 you, of course, in English because I'm afraid I don't

    10 speak your language, and then listen to the question as

    11 it comes over the headphones in Bosnian, the channel is

    12 on the Bosnian language, and then if you reply in

    13 Bosnian, we'll all listen to it in our own languages

    14 and we'll make progress that way.

    15 You'd reached the position yesterday of

    16 telling us how Ranko Cesic had made you sit down in

    17 front of him in that little room. Incidentally, we can

    18 deal with this all very quickly, so don't worry about

    19 details very much. Just tell us what he did while you

    20 were in that room. I think it had something to do with

    21 a gun.

    22 A. Before that, I forgot to mention a small

    23 incident. He brought in a man before he started

    24 beating us, the people from the hospital. He brought

    25 in a man from the hangar. He was so beaten up that he

  5. 1 was all bloody. Blood was gushing from his face and it

    2 was gushing to such an extent that you could not

    3 recognise his face. Since I was so frightened, I

    4 forgot to mention that yesterday, and I would like to

    5 mention that.

    6 Q. Okay. Well, that's helpful. Now we can go

    7 back to the second incident. When you'd been asked by

    8 him to sit down, just tell us, in a sentence, what he

    9 did with the gun.

    10 A. He was shooting around my body. It was so

    11 close that I felt the heat of the bullets and the smell

    12 of gun powder. He was so arrogant.

    13 Q. All right. So --

    14 A. And it was so irritating.

    15 Q. We'll move to the next little bit. Then I

    16 think you left the room with this man, and perhaps we

    17 can put that plan on the ELMO again, please.

    18 MR. NICE: I gather, Your Honour, for various

    19 reasons, that when the plan is being used, we'll see it

    20 or we can follow it, but it won't, I think, be

    21 available to the public for the usual reasons. I'm not

    22 sure how the technical side of things works, but

    23 apparently that's what happens.

    24 Q. When you went out this time, Witness K, did

    25 you go on foot or did you get into a vehicle?

  6. 1 A. I went on foot to the vehicle together with

    2 him, and he brought me into the vehicle. I sat on the

    3 seat next to him. Behind my head were two big dogs,

    4 and he told them to snarl behind my neck. He started

    5 the car, he came to the gate, and he ordered the guards

    6 to open the gate. The guards opened the gate, and the

    7 vehicle went towards the hangar.

    8 I can show you the direction that he drove.

    9 He entered at this gate [indicating]. We went slowly

    10 around. He drove slowly all around here [indicating].

    11 So the dogs were snarling. He did not say much. He

    12 grinned ironically.

    13 But I saw a lot of civilians around, and

    14 their hands were put above their heads on the walls. I

    15 cannot describe my fear to you, and I cannot give you

    16 the exact number of people, but I saw that there were

    17 quite a few people, and most of them were men, it seems

    18 to me, men in civilian clothes.

    19 Q. When you came out of the hangar, did he drive

    20 out of the camp some distance to a secluded area?

    21 A. Yes. I got out of the hangar. Then we came

    22 to the gate, and the guards there knew him. Since they

    23 knew him, they opened up quickly, and we went out in

    24 this direction [indicating], towards the bridge that

    25 had been blown up. It was already getting dark.

  7. 1 I panicked terribly, because I knew that this

    2 was the end of the road. I knew that the bridge was no

    3 longer there. I didn't know what would happen

    4 afterwards.

    5 Q. Did he have a weapon with him?

    6 A. He had an automatic rifle, he had a knife on

    7 the side, and I even think he had a pistol at his

    8 belt.

    9 Q. When he stopped the car, was it in a secluded

    10 area?

    11 A. It was near the bridge where it was dark and

    12 that was the end of the street that led to the River

    13 Gunja. On the other side was Gunja, that's the Croat

    14 part, and that was the end of the road and that's where

    15 we stopped.

    16 Q. Now, you can tell us a bit, if you like, just

    17 literally in one sentence, because I don't want any

    18 detail. Tell us in one sentence what he did and then

    19 we'll move on to the next.

    20 A. Yes. He said to me that he decided, way back

    21 in the office as he was shooting at me and playing with

    22 my nerves, he said what he would do to me.

    23 He got a knife out. First he put the knife

    24 here and he cut off a button with the knife. He raised

    25 my uniform a bit and then he put the knife underneath

  8. 1 my neck and he said that I should not move, otherwise,

    2 he would slit my throat in a single move.

    3 The dogs were snarling behind my back, and I

    4 could feel their froth. I just firmly held -- I just

    5 firmly, firmly held onto the car.

    6 Q. Yes.

    7 A. He pulled me in a semi-lying position.

    8 Q. I think, in a sentence, and I'm going to put

    9 this to you and you don't have to give any detail: I

    10 think he raped you. Is that right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. When he'd done that, what did he say he was

    13 going to do next?

    14 A. He said that he had finished the first part

    15 and that we would move on to the second part. He was

    16 buttoning himself up, closing the door, and he said to

    17 me that we should move to the river bank and that he

    18 would slit my throat there and throw me into the river.

    19 Q. Did another vehicle arrive at that time?

    20 A. At that moment, when he was talking to me, I

    21 heard and saw the light -- heard a car. I think I saw

    22 the lights of a car. I saw the light. I'm not sure I

    23 heard the vehicle.

    24 There was light on us, and a man came out of

    25 the car and called out to him loud, telling him to get

  9. 1 out, that he wanted to talk to him. He called out his

    2 name and surname, and that is when I first heard his

    3 name and surname.

    4 He called out to him two or three times, and

    5 he was quarrelling with him. However, Ranko did not

    6 want to react to what he was saying. He wanted to do

    7 his own thing, what he wanted to do, but the man

    8 insisted. It's not that they were fighting physically,

    9 but they argued a lot and they were very loud.

    10 Q. Eventually, did the men or man who just

    11 arrived get you to go into their car and take you to

    12 the police station?

    13 A. There was this man who was arguing with him a

    14 lot, and he was keeping him, whereas the other man went

    15 to the other side. He opened the door and said in a

    16 very calm voice to me, "Please Madam, could you get out

    17 and move into our vehicle? And please don't be

    18 afraid. We don't want to hurt you."

    19 But as I was passing by, I heard that the man

    20 who talked to Ranko was saying to him that he did not

    21 have permission to take victims out without a written

    22 permit. As I was passing by, I heard that bit of

    23 conversation.

    24 Then I moved to the other car, and they

    25 closed door and I sat on the back seat. So I don't

  10. 1 know what they were talking about afterwards, but they

    2 remained in conversation or, actually, I saw them

    3 speaking.

    4 Then we left and the man started driving

    5 towards the SUP in the centre of town.

    6 Q. Again, Witness K, you can deal with these

    7 matters very shortly if you like, and it will probably

    8 help if you deal with it very shortly.

    9 At the police station were you questioned?

    10 If so, just tell us the topics that you were questioned

    11 about, but do it in a sentence, if you can.

    12 A. In the beginning, I waited and I saw lots of

    13 policemen, soldiers. They were milling about all

    14 over. But I had to wait until the chief of police

    15 would be available.

    16 This man who brought me in, his name was

    17 Dragan. He talked to me. He tried to calm me down.

    18 He offered me coffee, and he said that this was only an

    19 informative talk, interview, and that I should not be

    20 afraid.

    21 After 15 minutes or so, he said to me that we

    22 could leave, and he took me to the third floor where

    23 the chief of police was. This was like a conference

    24 room. There were four men there and there was a

    25 guard. Across the door a chair was offered to me, and

  11. 1 across from that chair sat the chief of police, and at

    2 the bottom of the table there were two other men. So I

    3 did not really pay attention to them, and I didn't

    4 realise whether I knew them or not. I was probably

    5 afraid as well. I did not recognise anyone.

    6 The chief of police, who was sitting across

    7 from me, he offered me a chair, and he asked me what my

    8 name was and I replied. He asked me whether I knew

    9 him, and he told me to look at him. I looked at him

    10 but I could not recognise him. He was shaved. He

    11 looked -- he sort of had a short, military-like

    12 haircut. He did not have a beard. He did not have a

    13 moustache. I did not recognise him.

    14 Then he told me that he knew me very well,

    15 and I said, "Very well. Very well." I just shrugged

    16 my shoulders. I didn't know what to say. Then the

    17 interrogation started.

    18 Q. Just tell me, by topics, what did they ask

    19 you about?

    20 A. First they asked me most of all about my

    21 family, my husband's family, where my husband was,

    22 where his brothers were, where were the brothers'

    23 sons. He asked me about people whom he knew, and he

    24 mentioned to me that he knew them as well, and that I

    25 should know them too and that they were family friends

  12. 1 sort of.

    2 I answered the questions I knew answers to,

    3 and if I did not know the answers to some questions I

    4 said I didn't know, and then they faced me with an

    5 ultimatum. They said, "You have five minutes to give

    6 us an answer," and then they started counting. They

    7 said they were strict about this and that if I did not

    8 answer within five minutes' time that there would be

    9 consequences, something to that effect, as if they

    10 would kill me.

    11 I said to them, "I told you what I knew and

    12 what I don't know, I don't know. You can kill me. I

    13 stand by what I said, and I cannot answer what I don't

    14 know." It lasted for quite a long time. It seemed

    15 like an eternity to me.

    16 Q. All right, Witness K. We're now going to

    17 move to the next passage. We can deal with this quite

    18 quickly, because I'm going to ask you a couple of

    19 questions, and if I get it right you can simply say

    20 "yes" or "no" to me and we can move on.

    21 Is it right, just yes or no, that at the end

    22 of this interrogation you were asked if you wanted to

    23 go back, what you wanted to do, and you said you wanted

    24 to go back to the hospital and you were taken back to

    25 the hospital? Is that right?

  13. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Was that in the early hours of the morning?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Now, I'm not going to ask you to deal in any

    5 detail with what happened at the hospital, because I

    6 don't think it's of particular interest to the Judges

    7 dealing with this particular case.

    8 Later that day, were you, with two other

    9 nurses and a doctor, taken back to Luka?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. When you got there, did you go into one of

    12 the offices where there were some men and, I think, one

    13 woman present?

    14 A. Yes. Yes, but I'd just like to say that

    15 before we got out of the hospital, as we were awaiting,

    16 I saw -- it seemed to me that the entire area around

    17 the hospital, the park, the compound, was covered with

    18 heavy arms and ammunition. I was amazed by this large

    19 quantity. I mean, I was shocked.

    20 Q. Yes. All right. Well, then we get to the

    21 room. The men in the room, how were they dressed?

    22 A. In police uniforms.

    23 Q. The woman, did you know the woman by name at

    24 all?

    25 A. I did not know the woman but I knew her

  14. 1 mother. I knew her mother very well. The entire town

    2 knew her mother very well.

    3 Q. The woman's name was?

    4 A. Monika. Monika. She was a young girl, about

    5 17 years old.

    6 Q. Of the men, did one speak and did he

    7 introduce himself? On this occasion try to keep it

    8 short, but just tell us what he said.

    9 A. The man who was sitting by the corner, he

    10 wasn't really a man, he was a young-ish man, and he

    11 behaved as if the world was his oyster. He introduced

    12 himself as Goran Jelisic, the "Serb Adolf," and that we

    13 were now in his hands, that the law was in his hands,

    14 and that he had a major task, that the Muslims were

    15 reproducing to a great extent and that he had a lot of

    16 work to do to cleanse us, to create a free territory

    17 for the Serb people.

    18 May I just have a moment? Just a moment,

    19 please.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we

    21 could give her a glass of water. All right.

    22 Take a few minutes.

    23 A. He said that he hated Muslims so deeply that

    24 he wanted to kill all of them, with pleasure, that he

    25 had got a green light from the International Community,

  15. 1 the Red Cross, that there was no hope for us, that our

    2 fate was in his hands, and that it was only up to him

    3 when our turn would come, and if any one of us were to

    4 survive by any chance, by any chance, he said, we could

    5 only be their slaves, clean their toilets, serve them.

    6 We could not by any means do anything professional.

    7 So he underlined several times that our fate

    8 was in his hands and that he wanted to do that with

    9 pleasure, to cleanse us.

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. Then did he do something with another person,

    12 a man?

    13 A. Yes. Then he ordered to bring in a civilian

    14 from the hangar to show us, by way of an example, how

    15 great his power was and what he had available to him.

    16 He sent for a policeman to bring in a

    17 civilian, and he said to us that we cannot look this

    18 civilian in the face but only in the feet or, actually,

    19 so that we could just see him being beaten up.

    20 He just wanted to show his own power and to

    21 instil fear in us, and that he could rule our bodies

    22 and our fear.

    23 Q. What happened to the civilian who was brought

    24 in?

    25 A. They brought him in. We had to bow our

  16. 1 heads, and I saw feet or legs up to the knees. I saw

    2 that this was a civilian, and by the build of his

    3 body -- I mean, I couldn't tell at that point, but much

    4 later, it was my estimate that this was a very young

    5 man, judging by his physique.

    6 Goran then ordered, as he was sitting there,

    7 ironically -- or, rather, he was screaming to the

    8 remaining four that they should surround the civilian

    9 and start beating him.

    10 Automatically they started beating, first

    11 with batons and with rifle butts, and kicking the man.

    12 The victim tried to protect himself. He tried to

    13 protect his head, and he was screaming and he was

    14 begging at the beginning.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Just stop for a

    16 moment. Would you like us to take a break so that you

    17 can rest for a few moments? Would you prefer that,

    18 Witness K?

    19 A. No. I waited for seven years to say this.

    20 It was very hard. It was very hard to watch,

    21 to watch this helplessness, powerlessness, and that we

    22 could not help.

    23 MR. NICE:

    24 Q. When the beating had finished, what happened

    25 to the man?

  17. 1 A. May I say a few words before that? I had a

    2 feeling that our souls, our souls were being driven

    3 out. The man fell down; he was unconscious. I could

    4 not see his face because they were still around him.

    5 So he fell down and he had his back to the floor. Then

    6 Goran ordered to pull him out by his arms, and they

    7 pulled him out, and he told them to finish him off;

    8 that is, to kill him, to finish him off.

    9 Q. After that attack, did you stay in that room

    10 or were you moved to another room?

    11 A. After they dragged him out, we heard gunshots

    12 because it's very near. It wasn't more than a metre or

    13 two away from us. He told us that this was only just

    14 the beginning and it was merely an example of what was

    15 in store for us. He also said that when he caught my

    16 husband, he'd do the same thing to him, and then he

    17 ordered to take us out to another office.

    18 Q. Did you stay in that other office for some

    19 time, but were you then taken again back to the first

    20 office where there were some men waiting for you?

    21 A. I was taken back or, rather, four of us were

    22 taken back to a small room. Before the war, it was a

    23 small office, I suppose, for some clerks, junior

    24 clerks, very small. We had to sit in a corner. We had

    25 to squat in a corner because there was no room for all

  18. 1 of us. The furniture was office furniture there.

    2 There was very little room, and we all sat in a corner,

    3 huddling together with our legs put up. Of course, we

    4 huddled together to try to calm down, to support one

    5 another. It was a great shock to us all.

    6 Q. Yes. Were you called for again and taken

    7 back to the first office?

    8 A. And we never even managed to calm down. Dark

    9 was falling, and a man entered again with a big torch

    10 lamp aiming it at our eyes and keeping it like that for

    11 five or ten minutes, completely blinding us so that we

    12 did not know where we were going. Then he would kick

    13 us with his foot or, rather, with his boot, and he told

    14 us to stand up very rudely and follow him.

    15 Of course, after this strong light, we hit

    16 against everything because we could not see where we

    17 were going. So we tried to grope our way around, tried

    18 with our hands to see where we were going and trying to

    19 follow the man who came to fetch us. So we were taken

    20 back to the office, to that same office where we had

    21 been before.

    22 Q. Who was there on this occasion?

    23 A. The same team: Goran, naturally, sitting in

    24 a corner; Monika sitting next to him. She was

    25 behaving -- ironically, she would also put in an ironic

  19. 1 word here and there, but Goran was so -- he was so

    2 blood-thirsty. He was speaking in such a voice that

    3 froth was coming out of his mouth. He was yelling at

    4 us. All his veins in his neck came out, and he was

    5 showing all his power, his force, his strength, to

    6 instil fear in us, I think.

    7 Q. What things was he saying?

    8 A. Then he turned to me mainly, saying that he

    9 hated Muslim women, that he never wanted to touch a

    10 Muslim woman, that they were very dirty, and that he

    11 wanted to exterminate them all, but that he hated men

    12 more, so that they wouldn't proliferate. In that

    13 sense, he said that he would start from men, to avoid

    14 any proliferation, to cleanse easier for room for the

    15 Serbs, and that he was in charge of that.

    16 Q. Did something then happen involving another

    17 man?

    18 A. Yes. He again ordered another policeman to

    19 go back to the hangar and bring in another man. He

    20 also told us to put our heads down, and shortly

    21 afterwards, a man came, and the same procedure was

    22 repeated, the same way, beatings, the same procedure.

    23 The man was screaming, of course, trying to protect

    24 himself with his hands, until he fell to the ground

    25 unconscious and remained there lying down unconscious,

  20. 1 and the four of them were waiting to see if he would

    2 move again. They were waiting for his movements. Then

    3 he ordered again to drag him out and to finish him off,

    4 and then again we would hear another shot. As soon as

    5 they dragged him out, we heard a shot, and it resounded

    6 very strongly because it was in our vicinity.

    7 Then Goran would come back again and say that

    8 he was a very busy man because there were very many

    9 Muslims and that there was a lot of work to do and so

    10 that they needed to take us back again.

    11 Q. Take just a second to look at that map that

    12 the Court can see but won't be shown to the public

    13 gallery. Take your time and see if you can point out,

    14 with any accuracy, the room where Jelisic and the

    15 others saw you and beat the men. See if you can point

    16 that one out to us.

    17 A. [Indicating]

    18 Q. And then can you point out the room where you

    19 and the other women were being held?

    20 A. [Indicating]

    21 Q. Thank you. On this occasion when you were

    22 being taken back to that room --

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. -- was there somebody there, and, if so, what

    25 was happening?

  21. 1 A. They took us to this tiny room; that is, that

    2 other room where we were before. We were taken back

    3 there. There were four of us from the hospital who

    4 were taken there. We stayed there; we were alone for a

    5 brief moment. We tried to calm down. The window was

    6 open, and beneath the window on a chair a guard was

    7 sitting. It was a very small room so that we could

    8 overhear the conversation between the guards. We sat

    9 again in the same corner. I can show it to you. This

    10 corner here [indicating]. This desk, it was quite big

    11 and it was near the window, so that we had very little

    12 room in this corner. We again sat down to try to calm

    13 down, but not much time passed --

    14 Q. I'm going to interrupt you there because

    15 there's one thing I forgot to ask you about in relation

    16 to the previous encounter with Jelisic.

    17 Just answer this question yes or no. Did you

    18 at the time know where your husband was? Just yes or

    19 no. Did you at the time know where your husband was?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Did Jelisic say anything to you about your

    22 husband?

    23 A. He said he'd do his best to catch him. As a

    24 matter of fact, when he asked me where my husband was,

    25 I told him that I did not know, that we'd gone to work

  22. 1 together and that I stayed there and that he went to

    2 his business and after that to his workplace, and after

    3 that, we simply lost contact. I didn't know where he

    4 was, and I was really afraid what might happen because

    5 I had no idea where he was. We completely lost

    6 contact.

    7 Q. Right. Back to the room in which you were

    8 with the other women. Were you subsequently taken from

    9 that room by someone?

    10 A. After a short interval of time, the soldier

    11 came again with that same torch lamp and again aimed it

    12 at our eyes for about four or five minutes, and again

    13 kicking us. He told us again to follow him and come

    14 out. As a matter of fact, he pulled me by the hand and

    15 told me to stand up. I again thought that we were

    16 going to go through this same thing, that we'd again

    17 see the same thing, and I'd been through that twice

    18 already. So I stood up and followed him to the passage

    19 which was very narrow.

    20 At that moment when I was in the passage, as

    21 I came out into the passage, he pulled me -- he pulled

    22 me into another room for all he was worth. I mean, he

    23 just pulled me in.

    24 Q. Can you point out on the plan which room you

    25 think it was?

  23. 1 A. Yes. This room [indicating], he pulled me

    2 into this here. Well, it was opposite --

    3 Q. Opposite, all right.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. When you got into that room, was something

    6 happening there that you could see?

    7 A. Yes. There was a very small lamp there, so

    8 it was in semi-darkness. I saw a woman, I knew her

    9 name was Zena, and I saw her lying down. I saw a

    10 soldier sitting, looking as if he'd finished whatever

    11 he was doing -- what he was doing, at that moment, she

    12 told me not to try to defend myself, to just yield to

    13 avoid beatings.

    14 Q. What was happening to her? Did you see or

    15 did she tell you?

    16 A. I saw that her face was all blue with

    17 bruises. There were so many bruises you couldn't see

    18 her face, all around the eyes, the whole face.

    19 Q. What was actually happening to her? Just

    20 tell us in a sentence.

    21 A. At that moment, I didn't know what had

    22 happened to her. I mean, at that moment, I saw what

    23 had happened, but I didn't know about the bruises until

    24 she told me later that she was at home, that it was

    25 terrible, that they came, they looted, looking for

  24. 1 gold, for a car, and after that, they threw a blanket

    2 over her and beat her and then the whole group, to the

    3 last man, raped her. All those who were in her house,

    4 there could have been ten men, I don't know how many,

    5 but there were a large group of men, and the bruises

    6 originated then.

    7 In that room, I saw by the posture that she

    8 was in and by the soldier above her, I knew that it was

    9 a rape.

    10 Those were fleeting moments. At that moment,

    11 it could have been a couple of seconds, I saw her, and

    12 then I was pushed into another corner, behind the desk,

    13 and then the same -- he embarked on the same procedure

    14 with me.

    15 Q. I'm only going to ask you about two or three

    16 questions, and you can answer them with probably

    17 single-word answers so that you don't have to go into

    18 the detail unless you choose to or want to.

    19 In the attack on you, was it one soldier or

    20 more than one, and if it was more than one, just tell

    21 us the number of soldiers.

    22 A. There were three of them, three soldiers.

    23 Q. Just yes or no to this: Did you do your best

    24 to resist?

    25 A. I did what I could. I crossed my legs, I --

  25. 1 Q. We don't need the detail, you see. You've

    2 told us all I need to know, that you did your best to

    3 resist, but in the event --

    4 A. I was trying. I was trying to resist.

    5 Physically, I was trying very hard, but they had no

    6 sympathy. They had come with that purpose in mind, to

    7 indulge in it.

    8 Q. The last question, which again you can

    9 answer, if you like, with just one word, is how many of

    10 the three men in the event succeeded in raping you?

    11 A. Two.

    12 Q. After that had happened, were you returned to

    13 the other rooms? If you were, I want you to tell us

    14 what you could hear afterwards, after you'd been

    15 returned to the room.

    16 A. After they finished, the two soldiers, the

    17 third one was cueing there, and the door opened, and

    18 there was a group of soldiers and they called them to

    19 go into action. They told them that they had to get

    20 ready quickly and go off to an action. So it was all

    21 like a lightening. They left in a matter of seconds,

    22 and I stayed there lying down. I simply could not

    23 stand up.

    24 Q. Did you return to the other room or not?

    25 A. Yes.

  26. 1 Q. And that night, did you hear any sounds from

    2 the man Jelisic?

    3 A. I returned for a moment to my room and I saw

    4 there crying a detainee, like a child, and he was

    5 apologising for not being able to help us because he

    6 wanted to give us support.

    7 Q. This detainee, although we don't need his

    8 name, was he a professional man, and if so, what was

    9 his profession? But don't give his name.

    10 A. He was a gynaecologist and an obstetrician.

    11 Q. You stayed there that night. What did you

    12 hear from that man?

    13 A. We didn't have time to calm down. We could

    14 hear shouting and yelling. He was moving at a

    15 lightening speed towards the hangar, ordering about

    16 people to bring in. I could hear his voice; I could

    17 hear his words. I think you could hear his voice a

    18 kilometre away; he was yelling that loudly. I saw him

    19 take out a group of people from between the hangars and

    20 the office where we were, in this direction where we

    21 were when we -- in the office where we were first,

    22 where we were interrogated. I can show it to you. It

    23 was somewhere here [indicating].

    24 There were three or four lines of people

    25 lined up, and I was watching, of course. We couldn't

  27. 1 watch for long because there was a guard there, but the

    2 voice shouting and the gunfire were horrendous. So

    3 naturally we could not but look through the window at

    4 least on the sly. We simply wanted to see what was

    5 happening to those people.

    6 Q. What did you see happening or what did you

    7 hear from those people?

    8 A. He ordered them to sing Serb national songs,

    9 with a Serbian accent, and to sing it very loud. There

    10 was -- I mean, he was moving as if he was running

    11 around between those lines listening to each of those

    12 individuals to hear if he was singing loud enough, if

    13 the accent was as he wanted it to be. We could hear

    14 gunfire. It was horrible to look at that. We could

    15 hear every word of each and every song. We could hear

    16 every word which he yelled, except that I can't recall

    17 them right now, but these were nationalistic songs.

    18 He moved between those lines, and then he

    19 would come back to the hangar, and he would go back to

    20 those lines, and it took quite awhile.

    21 Q. Now, the next topic I want you to deal with,

    22 which we can deal with maybe quite shortly, is in

    23 completely general terms what you did or were made to

    24 do in the next few days or weeks, so we can get a very

    25 quick picture of what happened to you, and then I'll

  28. 1 deal with just a few things in detail.

    2 Now, do you understand what I'm going to ask

    3 of you? Just yes no.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. So over the next few days or weeks, were you

    6 kept in Luka? Yes or no?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Were you obliged or made to do certain jobs

    9 in the course of the daytime?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did those jobs include cleaning?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And also preparing food for the soldiers?

    14 A. Yes. Yes.

    15 Q. Did the cleaning include cleaning the

    16 lavatories?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Were you obliged to clean the lavatories by

    19 hand or were you given any equipment?

    20 A. By hands. There was nothing, and there were

    21 no tools, no aids, nothing, with our hands only. There

    22 could have been an old broom or, rather, only the

    23 stick, the handle of the broom. So you couldn't do

    24 anything. You had to use your hands. There was

    25 nothing else. It was disgusting.

  29. 1 Q. At night -- and I'm now going to turn to what

    2 happened to you at night. Did you -- paragraph 26 for

    3 the time being.

    4 At night did you ever go to Jelisic's

    5 office? Just yes or no.

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Was it some nights, most nights, or every

    8 night? Most nights?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. In Jelisic's office, in the evenings or

    11 nights, what happened? Again, you can deal with it, if

    12 you find it possible to deal with it, you can just deal

    13 with it in a sentence or so.

    14 A. Same things happened over and over again.

    15 They would bring people in front of us, beat them.

    16 Same principle as the first night.

    17 Q. How did the beatings end?

    18 A. The victim would be unconscious, without

    19 moving. Then they would drag him out and Goran would

    20 order to finish the victim off.

    21 Q. In the course of these things, did Jelisic

    22 say anything about himself? Did he give a name for

    23 himself? Did he say anything about the people who he

    24 was having beaten up and killed, anything of that

    25 sort? Again, if you can deal with it shortly, just

  30. 1 do. Just tell us in summary.

    2 A. About himself, he said that he was the main

    3 figure in the camp, that everybody had to respect him,

    4 that he was responsible for all that was happening,

    5 that he was issuing orders, that he wielded out fates,

    6 that he decided about fates, and he repeated time and

    7 time again that he was a "Serb Adolf" -- the "Serb

    8 Adolf", that he was copying the Nazi method of

    9 cleansing people. People obeyed, that people were

    10 obedient, they obeyed him, that they did all that he

    11 would order them to.

    12 Q. Did he say what was to happen to the Muslim

    13 people who survived, what they were to be doing in

    14 society?

    15 A. He said that he would do his best to cleanse

    16 the territory for the Serb people so that they would

    17 have more room, and that it was his duty to cleanse as

    18 much as possible, and if any Muslims survived, he said

    19 "if," that all he could do was cleanse -- that that

    20 Muslim could only exist to do menial jobs, to be a

    21 slave, that is. In other words, that we could only be

    22 their slaves.

    23 Q. You, of course, had been -- were trained as a

    24 midwife. Was anything said about your particular

    25 future in terms of occupation or otherwise?

  31. 1 A. Yes. He said to me that I should not dream

    2 of going back to the hospital again, that I could only

    3 clean their lavatories or something like that, that I

    4 did not stand a chance of ever receiving permission to

    5 go back to work in the hospital again.

    6 Q. All right. So that's part of what happened

    7 in the evenings or the nights while you were detained

    8 at Luka. Paragraph 30.

    9 Did anything else happen to you, not

    10 involving Jelisic but involving other soldiers, in the

    11 nights that you were detained?

    12 A. There were other soldiers who screamed

    13 terribly at civilians. There was shooting. It was so

    14 loud all over. It wasn't only Jelisic, there were

    15 other people who wanted to do that, who entered the

    16 hangar, got out of the hangar. There was shooting,

    17 there was beating. People in the hangar screamed. It

    18 was horrible to listen to that.

    19 On the other hand, it's not a big town. A

    20 lot of detonations could be heard, and shooting behind

    21 our backs, behind the office.

    22 Q. It's probably my fault, but I don't think

    23 that you necessarily heard my question, or perhaps I

    24 didn't ask it very well.

    25 While you were detained there, at nights did

  32. 1 anything happen to you involving other soldiers? Did

    2 other soldiers do anything to you?

    3 A. You mean whether the same things were

    4 repeated as in the room, like the first night?

    5 Q. Yes?

    6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, but the next time I was

    7 there alone.

    8 Q. Again, was it one other night, some other

    9 nights, most other nights --

    10 A. Most of the --

    11 Q. -- all other nights?

    12 A. Most of the nights.

    13 Q. When these attacks on you were made, was it

    14 by one soldier, or more than one soldier, or did it

    15 vary?

    16 A. Mostly there would be more of them, two or

    17 three or four. It depended. It wasn't always the

    18 same. The soldiers the next time would have an accent

    19 like people coming from Serbia proper.

    20 Q. Yes or no, if you can; did Jelisic himself

    21 ever take part in any of these sexual attacks on you?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Was he ever physically present at any of the

    24 sexual attacks on you?

    25 A. No, but he said that whatever happened in the

  33. 1 camp, that he was responsible for that, and that he was

    2 the man in charge, and that he had to be asked.

    3 Q. We come now to the cleaning of the offices.

    4 Two points. First, when you cleaned the rooms, just

    5 generally, did you find on the walls and perhaps on the

    6 floors, from time to time, certain stains and signs of

    7 something? If so, what?

    8 A. Yes. In that room where there were beatings

    9 taking place, there were bloodstains on the wall, on

    10 the floor. So we'd have to clean that up in the

    11 morning.

    12 Actually, we had to clean every room, room by

    13 room. We would first start by cleaning up the blood.

    14 Then in the other room there would be lots of drinks,

    15 bottles, alcoholic drinks, cigarette butts. I think

    16 there were hundreds of bottles, bottles from alcoholic

    17 drinks, but in this other room we saw blood mostly that

    18 we had to clean up. That was the room where people

    19 were beaten up.

    20 Q. The next thing in the cleaning, on one

    21 occasion did you see a piece of paper with some writing

    22 on it that you were able to read?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Would you point out the room on the plan?

    25 Right in the middle of the block.

  34. 1 A. [Indicating]. Yes. Since we went from room

    2 to room while we were cleaning, we did one -- room by

    3 room in a row, and since we finished this one, we went

    4 into the other one, and accidentally I saw some papers

    5 on the table. I wanted to dust the table and also to

    6 clean the ashtrays while the woman working with me was

    7 throwing the bottles out, and as I was dusting and

    8 cleaning, I saw on the corner of this table four or

    9 five papers. So I accidentally saw, as I was dusting,

    10 that this was a list, a list of people, and I saw that

    11 these were people to be executed.

    12 Then out of fear or curiosity, I can't tell

    13 myself, with the speed of lightning I looked through

    14 these lists to see who these people were, how many were

    15 there. I was trembling all over. I used one eye to

    16 watch the door and the other eye to scan the list to

    17 see what was on the list by way of information.

    18 I would not have even noticed the paper had

    19 it not said "People For Execution". Then I opened

    20 this, and then I saw in handwriting, in very legible

    21 handwriting, I saw names and surnames of people, with

    22 numbers by their names. Most of these people were

    23 men. Most of them were Muslims. There were a few

    24 Croats too. All the pages were filled out.

    25 So in my estimate, at that time I could say

  35. 1 that there were about 50 people, but I was so afraid

    2 and all of this was in a hurry. As I was reading this,

    3 it was so fast. It was so fast. I skimmed through

    4 it.

    5 I would recognise people's names, a lot of

    6 people who were well known in town, people who worked

    7 in prominent positions, but I didn't have time to dwell

    8 on each and every name. I skimmed through the pages

    9 one after the other, and I was interested in the

    10 number, and I was interested if I could see the names

    11 of people I knew.

    12 Q. Did you leave the pieces of paper where you

    13 found them?

    14 A. Yes. I told you, with one eye I was watching

    15 the door so that no one of them would come in and I was

    16 looking at the list, because if they saw me doing that,

    17 I would have to take the consequences.

    18 On the other hand, I left it all as if it had

    19 remained intact. I didn't even want to dust it. So I

    20 wanted it to seem as if nobody had had a look at it,

    21 that nobody had touched it. I didn't want them to

    22 suspect me having seen this, not for a moment.

    23 I only told my friend, another woman, about

    24 this. At that moment, as she was carrying the bottles

    25 out, I stood at the door by -- with the bottles so that

  36. 1 she would also glance at the lists. This was so fast.

    2 It was perhaps half a minute or a minute. She didn't

    3 stay any longer than that. She wanted to see these

    4 lists so that perhaps she could see this and remember

    5 some of it.

    6 Q. All right. Just a few matters of detail

    7 about the period of time that you're talking about and

    8 then I'm very nearly finished.

    9 First of all, is it right that there was a

    10 period of time when you fell ill that one of the

    11 detainees was able to get you some medicine and you

    12 recovered? Just yes or no to that.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. How many days, roughly, were you ill?

    15 A. Two or three days. I think three days.

    16 Q. Did the events you've described, that is,

    17 being taken to Jelisic's room to see the beatings, the

    18 rapes that you've described, did those events happen

    19 both before and after the period of your illness or

    20 only before or only after?

    21 A. Before and after. While I was ill, I was

    22 unconscious most of the time. I had a high fever. My

    23 kidneys hurt badly. I didn't have any medicines. I

    24 had felt those pains before, but I tried to take it

    25 because I had no one to turn to for help. However, the

  37. 1 process became worse and the pain became unbearable and

    2 the fever went up, so I really got ill.

    3 Actually, it was -- I can't remember anything

    4 concerning those three or four days.

    5 Q. I don't need anything more than that. I'm

    6 just trying to find out the periods of time to which

    7 your illness relates.

    8 So allowing for a period of three days

    9 somewhere in the middle of the overall period when you

    10 were ill and indeed semiconscious or unconscious, how

    11 long overall approximately were you kept at Luka with

    12 the things happening that you've described to the

    13 Judges? How many days, how many weeks, approximately?

    14 A. These terrible things happened around the

    15 19th of May. A group of people had come to the hangar

    16 for a visit and --

    17 Q. I know what you're going to help us with,

    18 Witness K, and I'm going to come to that, but if you'd

    19 just be so good as to try and answer the first question

    20 I asked and we can deal with things in an orderly way.

    21 How long do you reckon it was, very roughly,

    22 then that these things were happening to you at Luka, 1

    23 day, 5 days, 10 days, 15 days? You tell us.

    24 A. Yes. I was in Luka until the end of the

    25 month, until the end of the month of May.

  38. 1 Q. So how long altogether were the beatings and

    2 the rapes and so on going on?

    3 A. After the 19th of May.

    4 Q. No. It's my mistake for not asking the

    5 question clearly.

    6 I want you just to tell the Judges, overall,

    7 for how many days these things you described happened,

    8 and the things that I'm talking about are the beatings

    9 by Jelisic and the night-time rapes and so on. How

    10 many days was it? Did it last for five days? Did it

    11 last for ten days? Very roughly tell us.

    12 A. I'd have to calculate it, subtract three days

    13 when I was sick, then when I was brought in, until the

    14 19th of May then. Just give me a moment, please. Let

    15 me calculate this. Let me calculate the time.

    16 About two weeks, I think. Two weeks. I was

    17 brought in around the 4th. I was ill for three days.

    18 On the 19th the torture stopped. About two weeks.

    19 Q. Thank you. Now, the next matters are not

    20 necessarily in sequence, they're just little details

    21 that I want you to provide, if you can, things that

    22 I've missed as I've been going along.

    23 When you were made to watch people being

    24 beaten in the evenings by men in Jelisic's office, were

    25 you alone or were other people made to witness those

  39. 1 beatings as well?

    2 A. The other time, if I can remember -- first I

    3 was brought in alone. Then they went and brought in

    4 the doctor. Then they went out again and brought two

    5 more persons, two nurses. So they waited for all four

    6 of us to be there. I don't know why they didn't bring

    7 us all together, but that's what the procedure was.

    8 They first brought me in, and then

    9 [redacted], and then two other persons together.

    10 Q. That name should be struck from the record.

    11 The men who were beaten in the way you've

    12 described, were they, so far as you could judge, in

    13 military uniform, or civilian uniform, or couldn't you

    14 see? Civilian clothes I mean, not civilian uniform.

    15 A. Are you referring to the men who were beaten,

    16 the people who were being beaten, the victims?

    17 Q. Yes, the victims.

    18 A. They -- well, those who were doing the

    19 beating were wearing police uniform, but the victims

    20 were wearing civilian clothes.

    21 Q. Yes. Then in relation to the rapes on you,

    22 what I want you to do, if you can, is to provide any

    23 names of men who did these things to you. Maybe you

    24 can provide some names in relation to the first rape.

    25 If you can, can you give us the names?

  40. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. All right.

    3 A. The first name was Stojanovic Mekivija.

    4 Q. The second name?

    5 A. The second name, I only know the nickname,

    6 Zuco.

    7 Q. Did you know the name of the third man?

    8 A. I don't.

    9 Q. Are you able to name any of the other men who

    10 raped you in the course of your time there?

    11 A. No. I wish I could have remembered their

    12 names. I wish I knew them, but -- but I can't give you

    13 the names when this was so fast. These were different

    14 men, accents coming from Serbia proper. I don't know.

    15 Q. Now, the last passage of your evidence, I

    16 think we can deal with very swiftly. Again, in large

    17 measure, in large part, I can say something to you and

    18 you will probably be able to just say yes or no or to

    19 answer with one word.

    20 On the 19th of May, you've already mentioned

    21 that date, did a military officer come to Luka, and he

    22 appeared to be a military officer of high rank? Just

    23 yes or no.

    24 A. Yes. Yes.

    25 Q. Was he in company with that same man, Dragan,

  41. 1 who you've referred to at an earlier stage?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And Dragan's other name is -- what's his full

    4 name, Dragan?

    5 A. Yes. Yes, that's the first time I recognised

    6 Dragan Veselic. His name is Dragan Veselic.

    7 Q. You can tell the Judges or maybe the other

    8 counsel the detail of this, if asked, but all I want

    9 from you in one word is, were you and the other

    10 detainees able to tell this officer, this high-ranking

    11 officer, what had happened? Just yes or no.

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did he promise that the behaviour would stop?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Did he say that those responsible would be

    16 punished?

    17 A. Yes, but I doubt it.

    18 Q. After that, did things change so that the

    19 rapes and the beatings stopped?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. For the most part, was Jelisic absent from

    22 the camp?

    23 A. I can say, as for myself and for my women

    24 friends, it stopped, I mean these terrible things,

    25 these rapes and everything when we were under a roof.

  42. 1 I cannot guarantee for other people, but I had the

    2 feeling that the atmosphere had changed and that less

    3 things were heard. After that, I did not see these

    4 lineups, the singing, the beatings. So it was a

    5 drastic change for us.

    6 Q. Who was the person then in charge of the

    7 camp, after the 19th of May, so far as you could judge?

    8 A. I think it was Kosta, Monika's brother.

    9 Q. Did you still have to carry on doing cleaning

    10 jobs?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Did you stay in the camp for some more days

    13 or weeks?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Until you were moved to where?

    16 A. A building near the SUP, near the police

    17 station.

    18 Q. A house, I think --

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. -- where you --

    21 A. Yes, it was a house. It was a house very

    22 close to the police station, so it was dangerous to

    23 move, after all.

    24 Q. Before you finally left Luka, however, had

    25 you seen Jelisic again?

  43. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Was it once or more than once that you saw

    3 him again in the camp?

    4 A. From the 19th of June, this gentleman said,

    5 the one who had a military uniform on, that he would

    6 protect us and that he would forbid Jelisic or anyone

    7 to enter our room. However, after that, Jelisic could

    8 be heard from across the gate, yelling. He was very

    9 angry. He wanted to get in, and I think the guards

    10 didn't let him, until he jumped over the fence at a

    11 given point in time. He ran in at the speed of

    12 lightning. Our window was open, we did not expect

    13 anything, and he ran in our room through the window,

    14 threw himself at the table. He was so enraged; he was

    15 so blood-thirsty. He just needed a minute; he just

    16 asked for a minute.

    17 However, the guards reacted very fast, and

    18 they pulled him by the legs, and he said that he just

    19 needed one minute to finish us off. He called

    20 us vipers, whores. I think he was very angry because

    21 he was denied certain things; he did not manage to

    22 indulge in the things he wanted to do. So it involved

    23 quite a fight to get him out. He was frothing at the

    24 mouth. He wanted -- if he only had one minute, the

    25 minute he asked for, I think he would have done all of

  44. 1 that. That's the state that he was in.

    2 Q. Thank you very much.

    3 MR. NICE: That concludes the questions I

    4 want to ask of this witness in direct examination.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    6 take a half-hour break to allow the witness to regain

    7 control of herself before she is asked questions by the

    8 accused's defence counsel.

    9 You were very courageous, and I ask the

    10 Victims and Witnesses Unit to take care of her and to

    11 do what's necessary. We will take a half hour, and if

    12 there's any problem, the registrar will inform me.

    13 We will adjourn and resume at noon.

    14 --- Recess taken at 11.28 a.m.

    15 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now

    17 resume the hearing. Please be seated.

    18 Do you feel all right, Madam?

    19 THE WITNESS: Yes. I did have some rest.

    20 Thank you.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, before Mr. Greaves

    23 cross-examines, I realised that I completely failed to

    24 deal with the lists, and I must deal with those.

    25 There's also one other question that I should have

  45. 1 asked the question, a matter of detail, and I'd like to

    2 deal with that.

    3 I understand from Victims and Witnesses Unit

    4 that there may be something that the witness herself

    5 wishes to address to you, the Chamber, but I must leave

    6 that to her. I've explained the position to

    7 Mr. Greaves.

    8 Q. First of all, one other matter of detail,

    9 Witness K, that I should have asked you about. You

    10 told us about a woman who was being raped when you

    11 first went into that little room, the woman who told

    12 you about how she was arrested and taken from her home

    13 and so on.

    14 Can you tell me this, please: What was the

    15 occupation of her husband?

    16 A. I believe he was a lawyer. That is what she

    17 told me and that is how Goran treated him, as a

    18 lawyer. Ironically, that was the end of his law

    19 career, that he was taking over his role, that he was

    20 now to be both judge and lawyer. That is how I know

    21 that he was a lawyer.

    22 Q. Was that man, the husband of the woman, also

    23 detained at Luka?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Can you give me any part of the name of the

  46. 1 woman?

    2 A. Zena Vatic.

    3 Q. Thank you.

    4 MR. NICE: May the witness please, in the

    5 private session that we have to follow, have the two

    6 lists, please?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session.

    8 [Private session]

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    9 (redacted)

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    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 [Open session]

    17 MR. NICE:

    18 Q. For completeness, Witness K, I should have

    19 asked you about your own husband. Did you and your own

    20 husband meet again after you were transferred in

    21 September?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Had he, in fact, been detained during the

    24 time you were detained or not?

    25 A. No.

  52. 1 Q. Has he since died in an independent -- in an

    2 accident or an event that happened some years later, an

    3 explosion, I think?

    4 A. I do not know if it was an accident, but I

    5 know that it was the -- there was an explosion at the

    6 police station where he worked, when he was on duty.

    7 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    9 Mr. Nice.

    10 Witness K, you know, I'm sure that you were

    11 told, you are going to be asked questions by one of the

    12 Defence counsel for Goran Jelisic.

    13 I don't have to repeat this to him, but I

    14 call upon his sense of responsibility to protect, at

    15 all times, the witness's dignity.

    16 But I must tell you, Madam, that this is a

    17 judicial institution. An accused has the right to be

    18 defended. It is under those conditions that the

    19 cross-examination will be conducted, which will be done

    20 by Mr. Greaves, I assume.

    21 [Trial Chamber confers]

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] My colleague

    23 has reminded me -- excuse me, Mr. Greaves.

    24 Perhaps you would wish to make a statement.

    25 Of course, you can make any statement that you wish,

  53. 1 Madam. So it is with no reluctance at all that I

    2 authorise you to make the statement that you wish to

    3 make, if you want to, of course.

    4 A. Yes. I really wish really to confront Goran

    5 Jelisic. I've waited seven years for that. I went

    6 through a horrible experience, and I needed all my

    7 courage and all my strength to come here. I'm not

    8 trying to be a hero. I felt it was my duty.

    9 It is my feeling that he has many more

    10 privileges in this Tribunal than we had in the camp.

    11 If he cannot walk, let them bring him and carry him

    12 in. I only want to see his eyes.

    13 Perhaps for my recovery in a way, I don't

    14 know, but I really do feel the need to confront him, to

    15 look him in the eyes. I do not want to say anything to

    16 him. I only want to look him in the eyes.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    18 Let me turn to Mr. Greaves and Mr. Londrovic. Do you

    19 have any news about Goran Jelisic? Will he be able to

    20 participate in the hearing this afternoon? What do you

    21 think? Possibly, could you encourage him to be here

    22 for the testimony which, in fact, is very particular?

    23 Can you use your influence so that he might be able to

    24 come?

    25 Mr. Londrovic?

  54. 1 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

    2 I called the detention unit during the break. I talked

    3 to Goran, and I was told that he was examined by a

    4 doctor and prescribed some medicines. I am also told

    5 that he will give his blood for analysis, and both he

    6 and the doctor hope that he will be well enough

    7 tomorrow to come to the trial.

    8 I fully understand the wish and the courage

    9 of Witness K. As far as I understood, Witness K does

    10 not wish to have cross-examination in the absence of

    11 Goran Jelisic. We can respect that.

    12 A. I wish to add something else, if I may.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Witness K, just

    14 a moment, please. Mr. Londrovic -- let's let him

    15 finish. I'll give you the floor again, but let

    16 Mr. Londrovic finish, please.

    17 A. I see. I see. Yes.

    18 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] I'm ready, if

    19 I may, to use another break to call Goran Jelisic and

    20 to ask him if he feels well enough and if he can to

    21 come here. We really don't like his not being here,

    22 believe me.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm going to

    24 give the floor back to Witness K and then I would like

    25 to consult with my colleagues.

  55. 1 Thank you, Mr. Londrovic. Thank you very

    2 much also for this assistance that you are bringing to

    3 help the victim find serenity.

    4 Witness K, did you wish to add anything

    5 before we deliberate?

    6 A. Yes. I wanted to add as regards one's state

    7 of health, perhaps my health is much worse, but my pain

    8 and all that I went through forced me to come here.

    9 They simply -- I felt compelled. I didn't sleep for

    10 nights. Nobody ill-treated him. I think he can come

    11 if I could come after all that happened, and I really

    12 request that he comes. I want to see him.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Madam, I'm

    14 going to consult with my colleagues. I would like to

    15 say two or three things to you myself personally and as

    16 a Judge.

    17 You see, what you experienced is what one

    18 could call the most serious expression of barbarity,

    19 and here I hope that we will be able to use the most

    20 highest and laudatory expression for an institution

    21 represented in civilisation.

    22 We have noticed many times, and I am

    23 reassuring the Defence that -- let this be in the

    24 transcript -- I'm only relying on the guilty plea of

    25 Goran Jelisic to the crimes that he committed, but we

  56. 1 can see that Goran Jelisic -- he has the right to leave

    2 the courtroom, whereas you did not have the right to

    3 leave the hangar.

    4 That's all that I can say. As for the rest,

    5 we are doing our labour as Judges. I thank

    6 Mr. Londrovic for the suggestion that he's going to

    7 make. I'm now going to confer with my colleagues.

    8 [Trial Chamber confers]

    9 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges are going to suspend

    10 the hearing so that they can deliberate more than they

    11 could at the bench. This will also allow the Victims

    12 and Witnesses Unit to take care of Witness K.

    13 I will again ask Mr. Londrovic to please

    14 confer with his client about the points that have been

    15 discussed and to know, among other things, whether his

    16 client will come this afternoon.

    17 We're going to take a 20-minute break.

    18 --- Recess taken at 11:35 a.m.

    19 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    21 resume the hearing. Please be seated.

    22 Without any further ado, I would give the

    23 floor to Mr. Londrovic, who I think has some

    24 information to give us, and I thank him for having made

    25 all the arrangements necessary in order to reach his

  57. 1 client.

    2 Mr. Londrovic, could you tell us what you

    3 have learned?

    4 MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

    5 my colleague, Mr. Greaves, and I have established

    6 telephone contact with Mr. Goran Jelisic. We explained

    7 the situation to him. We advised him to make an

    8 extraordinary effort, in spite of his illness, to come

    9 because this is absolutely requested by Witness K, and

    10 he is going to make an extra effort and he promised

    11 that he would come in this afternoon. But now what

    12 should be organised is bringing him in from the

    13 prison.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    15 much, Mr. Londrovic. We will resume this afternoon at

    16 3.00, not at 2.30, but at 3.00, which will allow time

    17 for Mr. Jelisic to come.

    18 I would like to now turn to Witness K. What

    19 you've asked is, in fact, quite a substantial request.

    20 This is a request which puts into question many

    21 principles of all types and of very high values, the

    22 principles of justice and those principles which deal

    23 with the complaints of the victim, but also principles

    24 which put into question issues dealing with the rights

    25 of the accused.

  58. 1 Since here this is one of the fundamental

    2 rights, that is, the right to be ill, this is

    3 Mr. Jelisic's right, and he has a medical certificate,

    4 he's been examined by a physician, and we Judges cannot

    5 question that certificate. In this respect, I believe

    6 it was confirmed to me that the physician would go to

    7 see the accused before he comes here. That's why we

    8 set the time at 3.00. If he cannot come this

    9 afternoon, even though he would desire to do so, and

    10 that matter has been confirmed by his representative as

    11 counsel, at that point, I believe that Mr. Jelisic will

    12 be here tomorrow morning.

    13 We will discuss the conditions under which

    14 the cross-examination can take place with Mr. Jelisic,

    15 and it is self-evident, Madam, that the Judges will not

    16 make any comments to him about what you have said

    17 because he is also protected by justice, as you are.

    18 That is what I can say for now.

    19 Therefore, in principle, the hearing is

    20 postponed until 3.00.

    21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.12 p.m.





  59. 1 --- On resuming at 3.08 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    3 resume the hearing. Please be seated.

    4 Mr. Greaves, I was going to take the floor,

    5 but I see that you wish to speak. Please proceed.

    6 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to interrupt. If

    7 Your Honour wanted to say something, then I will sit

    8 down, but there is something I have to draw to Your

    9 Honours' attention concerning the matters that we

    10 discussed just before lunch.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I simply wanted

    12 to speak about Mr. Jelisic. Did you want to speak

    13 about as well?

    14 MR. GREAVES: That was what I was going to

    15 speak about. So perhaps Your Honour better start and

    16 then I'll follow.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No. First,

    18 we'll -- all right. First, we'll listen to the

    19 Presiding Judge, that seems a natural thing to do, and

    20 then if we really have to supplement things, we can do

    21 that as well.

    22 With all seriousness, let me turn to

    23 Witness K. Mr. Jelisic is not going to come.

    24 Mr. Jelisic has been told by the doctor that he must

    25 not come. He has been forbidden to come. I ask you to

  60. 1 understand, Witness K, that under those conditions, I

    2 do not have the power, Judge Rodrigues does not and

    3 Judge Riad does not have the power, nobody has the

    4 power to require or even ask, even for a worthy cause,

    5 cannot force a human being, even if you think many

    6 things about that human being, which we respect, he

    7 cannot be dragged into this courtroom.

    8 Therefore, Mr. Jelisic will not come, and we

    9 the Judges, we take the responsibility and we say that

    10 he does not have to come, but he will not come most

    11 likely tomorrow either. He must undergo medical

    12 examinations, and the medical certificate indicated

    13 that he could not come tomorrow either.

    14 Under those conditions, and in respect of the

    15 powers that we have pursuant to the Rules and the

    16 Statute, in order to ensure a proper trial, we have

    17 decided to proceed with the cross-examination.

    18 I remind you nonetheless, with all the

    19 respect for what you asked for, that first of all we

    20 did what we could do in order to understand your

    21 reasons, and I also take advantage of this moment to

    22 thank the Defence for having understood also, beyond

    23 their professional duties, which are to defend a human

    24 being, for having tried to understand your position.

    25 I remind you as well that you were able to

  61. 1 see the accused yesterday, not very much, I understand,

    2 but you did see him.

    3 Lastly, you know that this is an accused who,

    4 about a great number of facts, pleaded guilty, that he

    5 acknowledges what he did.

    6 I am convinced that our decision does not

    7 fully match what you had wanted, but I hope that you

    8 will understand it.

    9 Mr. Greaves, I give you the floor.

    10 MR. GREAVES: I'm afraid I've got a spanner

    11 to throw into the works concerning what Your Honour has

    12 just said. Can I tell you what the information that we

    13 have is and our instructions are?

    14 The defendant, as you know, prior to lunch

    15 was asked if he was prepared to come to court, and when

    16 my learned friend, Mr. Londrovic, spoke to him, he

    17 indicated that he was prepared to come to court. That

    18 decision was communicated to the authorities at the

    19 prison, and my instructions are that an official at the

    20 United Nations Detention Unit took it upon himself to

    21 prevent the defendant from coming, indicating that he,

    22 the official, was not prepared to take the risk of a

    23 sick prisoner being brought to the court.

    24 The defendant indicated that he nevertheless

    25 was still willing and wanted to come to court and was

  62. 1 prepared to take the responsibility for so doing, and

    2 my learned friend, Mr. Londrovic, has spoken to the

    3 defendant since that passage of discussion took place

    4 and has confirmed that the defendant still wishes to

    5 come to court. I understand there may have been a fax

    6 sent by the official to the Tribunal, to the Registry,

    7 concerning that matter.

    8 That places us in this difficulty: The

    9 defendant, on our present instructions, wishes to come

    10 to court, is willing to come to court, and has prepared

    11 himself to take the responsibility, despite his

    12 illness, to come to court, and that raises the

    13 difficulty for us of Article 21. The defendant having

    14 indicated that he wished to be present, and those are

    15 our present instructions, he is entitled to be present,

    16 and that poses, to me, an insuperable difficulty.

    17 Those are our instructions. He wants to

    18 come; he's entitled under the article to come.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please finish.

    20 MR. GREAVES: I wasn't sure whether Your

    21 Honour was going to ask the registrar something or --

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I

    23 will ask him a question. The registrar has to confirm

    24 what was said to me, that there is a prohibition from

    25 the physician. That's what I wanted to be sure about.

  63. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I confirm that there was

    2 a certificate from the doctor saying he should not

    3 come. After the deputy at the detention unit had said

    4 that he would not allow him to come, the physician

    5 agreed with that.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I will consult

    7 with my colleagues.

    8 MR. NICE: May I add one or two things?

    9 Before the short break, when I was approached

    10 by the Victims and Witnesses Unit with their

    11 understanding of the witness's position, I was told

    12 that the witness had said she was prepared to wait as

    13 long as was necessary in order to confront the

    14 defendant, and I don't think she actually said that

    15 when she was addressing you. It may be something

    16 you'll need to explore with her or would want to

    17 explore with her.

    18 The second thing is we do have another

    19 witness here today and, in any event, could interpose

    20 other witnesses tomorrow were there to be consent of

    21 the defendant to those witnesses proceeding in his

    22 absence until such time as he is present, should that

    23 be the Court's decision, and the cross-examination of

    24 this witness could continue.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Can I add that I don't know

  64. 1 whether his wish to come to court is selectively only

    2 in respect of this witness or is a general wish. So

    3 that may pose a difficulty through calling another

    4 witness until we can establish precisely what the

    5 position is, but it's somewhat unsatisfactory as to our

    6 present state of knowledge in that regard.

    7 I'm sorry to raise that difficulty, but it

    8 seems to me a major difficulty.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    10 [Trial Chamber confers]

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Judges have

    12 decided that for this afternoon we will begin with a

    13 new witness for the direct-examination. For tomorrow

    14 morning, we will ask the registrar to be sure to inform

    15 us whether Mr. Jelisic can be present at 10.00 in the

    16 courtroom for the cross-examination in the presence of

    17 Witness K.

    18 Mr. Jelisic's presence in the courtroom, of

    19 course, is subordinated to the establishment -- to the

    20 drafting of a medical certificate authorising him to

    21 come here into the courtroom and to be present for the

    22 cross-examination. Of course, Mr. Jelisic will have to

    23 repeat the authorisation which he's given and to state

    24 that he wishes to come for the cross-examination.

    25 Having said this, Madam, and that will be all

  65. 1 I have to say, if tomorrow morning Mr. Jelisic is here

    2 with a medical certificate attesting to the fact that

    3 he can be present for the cross-examination, at that

    4 point your cross-examination will begin tomorrow

    5 morning. However, let me tell you, if tomorrow morning

    6 Mr. Jelisic is not in a position to take his place in

    7 the courtroom, we will continue with the

    8 cross-examination without him.

    9 Have you understood me, Madam?

    10 A. Yes. May I say something?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Please

    12 proceed.

    13 A. I understand it. After all, I work in

    14 health, and I understand that the other party does not

    15 feel well, but I should like Your Honours to understand

    16 my fears.

    17 I also have very grave health problems, and

    18 if I can find enough courage, summon enough courage

    19 with all the pain that I feel and with all my health

    20 problems, if I could summon enough courage to come

    21 here -- and it is really not wished anything else as

    22 this for seven years, just an ordinary meeting, without

    23 a conversation, without a threat. I'm quite an

    24 innocuous person. I do not wish to hurt anyone. But

    25 through this pain that I feel through my injured soul

  66. 1 and all my ordeals that I went through. This would

    2 perhaps help me recover.

    3 Could you perhaps look at it from my point of

    4 view?

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Madam, for the

    6 time being, I suggest that we no longer discuss this.

    7 The Judges have listened to all the arguments and have

    8 also taken into account your own.

    9 The Judges cannot make an accused available

    10 to a victim. The accused is under the protection of

    11 the Tribunal, as are we, and we also protect the

    12 witness.

    13 We have discussed this over a great deal of

    14 time. Mr. Jelisic is sick. He has a medical

    15 certificate. No matter what you may think, he is ill

    16 and we cannot -- this is a civilised institution. We

    17 cannot drag an accused into this courtroom if he is

    18 ill, nor can we wait indefinitely for him to get well.

    19 Let me point out to you as well that each

    20 time that he is absent from the courtroom, we ask the

    21 Defence and Mr. Jelisic if they agree to continue.

    22 These are the rights of the accused.

    23 I know what you're going to say. You're

    24 going to say that he trampled on the rights by

    25 trampling on the rights of victims, but that is the

  67. 1 work of justice. The work of justice is not perfect.

    2 We know this very well, but we try to render it as

    3 perfectly as we can. I ask that you understand this.

    4 Therefore, tomorrow morning, Mr. Registrar,

    5 you will come to inform me, and we will begin at 9.00,

    6 and you will tell me, if necessary, we will interrupt

    7 the examination of the witness and we will begin with

    8 the cross-examination of Mr. Jelisic [sic] on the

    9 twofold condition, that he be in agreement and that he

    10 have a proper medical certificate stating that he is in

    11 a position to follow his trial.

    12 For the time being, Madam, try to find some

    13 peace with that explanation. You have stated

    14 everything that you had to say. In addition, you know

    15 that Mr. Jelisic has also pleaded guilty to almost all

    16 of the acts. This is a trial for genocide. I believe

    17 that you must try to find some peace with that.

    18 We can say nothing further. All the

    19 arguments were heard, and I ask, with all the

    20 precautions that are required, that the witness be

    21 escorted out of the courtroom.

    22 Try to relax this afternoon, try to feel

    23 better, and we will see one another tomorrow, in any

    24 case, for the cross-examination.

    25 [The witness withdrew]

  68. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, can

    2 we introduce the next witness? That would be

    3 Witness L.

    4 MR. NICE: Yes. The next witness, Witness L,

    5 is available. Mr. Tochilovsky would or will be taking

    6 him.

    7 As a matter of clarification, are we to

    8 understand that the Tribunal has rejected, I think,

    9 Mr. Greaves' effective application that the matter

    10 should stand adjourned because the defendant doesn't

    11 consent, at the moment, to proceedings continuing in

    12 his absence? That's my understanding of Mr. Greaves'

    13 application or position, unless I've misunderstood it.

    14 I felt I ought to confirm that the Court had

    15 had that application in mind and --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, you're

    17 right. Would you have wanted another authorisation

    18 from Mr. Jelisic perhaps, Mr. Greaves? Is that what

    19 you wanted?

    20 MR. GREAVES: Given his express wish to

    21 attend the trial, the position was that it was not

    22 specified in the information that we were given that it

    23 was selective; in other words, that he only wished to

    24 attend the cross-examination of the last witness. The

    25 information we have is that he wanted to attend the

  69. 1 trial.

    2 That's why I raised the difficulty that we

    3 did not know whether it was only in relation to the

    4 witness who had requested his presence or that he was

    5 prepared to come for her but not for this witness.

    6 That was the difficulty I raise, and that's why I said,

    7 and that's why my learned friend has got up to confirm

    8 the position.

    9 It's not so much an application, it's my

    10 merely telling you what our instructions are.

    11 The difficulty that I was raising was we

    12 don't know if he's consenting to a specific part of the

    13 trial going on in his absence -- sorry. I phrased that

    14 very badly -- whether he was expressing a wish to come

    15 for one part or generally. I don't know what the

    16 answer to that question is, and that's why I said we

    17 don't know whether you can properly continue in the

    18 absence of a specific answer to that problem.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I would like to

    20 reread the certificate that Mr. Jelisic provided. The

    21 cross-examination might have only lasted for a few

    22 moments.

    23 [Trial Chamber confers]

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I suggest that

    25 to resolve the problem, we put on the ELMO, so the

  70. 1 interpreters can interpret this, the statement that has

    2 been signed by Mr. Jelisic. It will show us that it is

    3 of a general nature.

    4 Somebody should read this text out loud. Who

    5 can read it?

    6 MR. GREAVES: Would you allow me to do it,

    7 please?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.

    9 MR. GREAVES: The translation that has been

    10 provided to us leads as follows:

    11 "With great respect for the Trial Chamber,

    12 the witnesses and all present in the courtroom, I,

    13 Goran Jelisic, state that on this day, 9th of

    14 September, 1999, and until further notice, I wish the

    15 trial to proceed without my presence due to my serious

    16 health problems. I'm taking this decision in the

    17 request that nobody should change it. Yours

    18 faithfully ..."

    19 The original is signed in the manner of the

    20 Yugoslavs "Jelisic Goran," and is dated the 9th of

    21 September, 1999.

    22 Your Honour, can I draw Your Honours to the

    23 particulars of what it says? It says "Until further

    24 notice," and he has, on the face of it, given further

    25 notice of what his intention is. That further notice

  71. 1 doesn't say, one way or the other, whether it's only

    2 for one witness that he wants to come or in general.

    3 So I think what -- my learned friend quite

    4 properly raised the difficulty again, that we don't

    5 know.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Judge Riad? I

    7 have no question here, but Judge Riad would like to

    8 raise a question.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Greaves, there was no

    10 further notice. Your learned colleague contacted the

    11 accused for a very specific issue; namely, that

    12 witness, Witness K, wished his presence and he said

    13 that he would like to be present. So there was a

    14 specific issue, and the first notice is still varied.

    15 So this was not a notice. It was an agreement to be

    16 present for this very witness. That's how I understood

    17 it.

    18 MR. GREAVES: That certainly is a way in

    19 which one could properly look at that. I'm just being

    20 excessively cautious. I'm not trying to be difficult,

    21 but I don't want to get into difficulties if the

    22 defendant then turns around and says, "Well, I wanted

    23 to be here, come what may," and then blames me or my

    24 learned friend for that, and that's the only thing I'm

    25 concerned about. I know that my learned friend's

  72. 1 concern is that if we continue without establishing the

    2 position precisely, that something will be done this

    3 afternoon which might render this trial a nullity, and

    4 he's being, I suspect, extremely cautious as well. I

    5 hope I've read his mind right.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I understand,

    7 and it's all to your honour that you are working so

    8 cautiously with your client but I remind you that Goran

    9 Jelisic referred to witnesses, witnesses in the

    10 plural. Therefore, we must interpret the fact that

    11 this morning, there was an unexpected event, which no

    12 one could have foreseen, that is, the request of

    13 Witness K. In order to try to respond to that, we are

    14 isolating that incident, but I consider that the

    15 general provision, as stated by the accused himself,

    16 gives you full authority to continue without him in the

    17 courtroom. That seems very clear to me.

    18 In regard to the semi-threat of this being a

    19 nullity, which often I hear in some of the words that

    20 are said, is not something we've heard for the first

    21 time, but we are conscious of what we are doing and we

    22 always base ourselves on our texts, which are our best

    23 bulwark, in order to defend lawfulness in this

    24 Tribunal.

    25 Therefore, I believe that the Judges will

  73. 1 interpret this provision as they have interpreted it,

    2 and without any further ado, we will continue with the

    3 examination-in-chief of Witness L.

    4 Do you hear me, Witness L? First, we're

    5 going to ask you to acknowledge that the name on this

    6 piece of paper is yours, but don't state your name. Do

    7 not state your name.

    8 Usher, please show it to him.

    9 Is that your name?

    10 THE WITNESS: [Nods]

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You're going to

    12 take an oath and then after that be seated. Please

    13 read the declaration which is being given to you by the

    14 usher.

    15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    17 truth.


    19 [Witness answer through interpreter]

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You may be

    21 seated. You understand that the accused is not in the

    22 courtroom because he is ill, and a medical certificate

    23 was produced to that effect.

    24 You are going to first be asked questions by

    25 the Prosecutor, Mr. Tochilovsky, and after that by the

  74. 1 Defence. Perhaps tomorrow morning, the continuation of

    2 your testimony, if it does not finish this afternoon,

    3 will be somewhat disturbed for reasons which will be

    4 given to you but which would be premature to explain to

    5 you right now.

    6 Mr. Tochilovsky, please proceed.

    7 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: May I have the usher's

    8 assistance in placing the summary of the witness

    9 statement in front of him.

    10 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    11 Q. Witness L, you had an opportunity to read

    12 this summary and recognised it as a correct summary of

    13 your statement; is that right?

    14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    15 speak into the microphone.


    17 Q. You read the summary and you recognised it as

    18 a correct summary of your statement; is that correct?

    19 Please answer.

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Thank you.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Mr. L, were you and your neighbours arrested

    24 on May 4, 1992?

    25 A. Yes.

  75. 1 Q. Were you then taken to a house near the white

    2 mosque in Brcko?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. How many of you were detained in that house?

    5 A. About 200.

    6 Q. What ethnicity were those detainees, those

    7 people?

    8 A. Bosniaks.

    9 Q. Were you then taken to the JNA barracks the

    10 same day?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. How many people were there in the barracks

    13 when you arrived there?

    14 A. A couple of hundred.

    15 Q. Were you then put on buses and transported to

    16 the Laser Bus Company?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. How were you treated by guards in the

    19 barracks, in the Laser Bus Company? Very shortly, just

    20 characterise how you were treated by the guards.

    21 A. Poorly in the barracks, and in Laser,

    22 fairly.

    23 Q. Can you tell us what happened to those guards

    24 who treated you fairly?

    25 A. They were removed and others came in.

  76. 1 Q. In the Laser company?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What happened to you or what did you witness

    4 when you were in the Laser company, and what happened

    5 there approximately at midnight?

    6 A. It was Wednesday evening, around 1.00. A

    7 group walked in consisting of a few men, and one of

    8 them used a big baton to hit the table. We were all

    9 startled, and he said, "My name is Goran Jelisic,

    10 called Adolf the second. The first one was in Germany,

    11 Adolf Hitler, and I'm number two." Out of his pocket

    12 he took out a piece of paper and read the names. Among

    13 us was Dr. Kemal from that list whom they took out.

    14 Q. How many names were on the list? How many

    15 names did he read from the list, approximately, if you

    16 remember?

    17 A. Perhaps 10 or 15.

    18 Q. Can you tell the Court whether those names,

    19 if you knew those names, were those names belonging to

    20 people of the same ethnicity?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What was their ethnicity?

    23 A. Muslims.

    24 Q. On Friday, May 8th, were you taken to the

    25 Luka camp?

  77. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. How many people were there? How many

    3 prisoners were in Luka when you arrived there?

    4 A. Almost half of the hangar, perhaps 300 to 400

    5 people.

    6 Q. The man who introduced himself as Adolf in

    7 the Laser company, had you seen him in Luka upon your

    8 arrival?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Just shortly, did you witness the killing of

    11 two brothers from Zvornik?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Witness L, do you remember the date when you

    14 were released from Luka camp?

    15 A. On the 9th of May, in the morning, Saturday.

    16 Q. Where did you spend the night before your

    17 release?

    18 A. Opposite the hangar, in an office.

    19 Q. Who else was in that office?

    20 A. On my right-hand side, in an armchair, lying

    21 in an armchair next to me, Goran Jelisic.

    22 Q. So you spent the night in the room where

    23 Goran Jelisic was. Can you tell the Court what

    24 happened during that night? What did you witness?

    25 A. I can. I saw that throughout the night, they

  78. 1 were taking men out of the hangar, bringing them to

    2 this office. They had to kneel, cross themselves, and

    3 write on a piece of paper whatever they knew about

    4 extremists, who worked with weapons, for the defence of

    5 BH.

    6 Q. What happened to those people who were

    7 interrogated after the interrogation?

    8 A. They were taken out. Sometimes shots would

    9 be heard; sometimes they wouldn't. Interrogations

    10 would go on until the morning.

    11 Q. Again, very roughly, if you remember, how

    12 many shots did you hear that night, when people were

    13 taken out of the interrogation?

    14 A. Perhaps 10 to 20.

    15 Q. When you were in that room, and there was a

    16 soldier who entered the room, or soldiers, what did

    17 they try to do to you?

    18 A. They ordered me to get up. One of them

    19 slapped my face, and at the very same moment, Goran

    20 Jelisic got out of the armchair and threatened them

    21 that no one dare touch me.

    22 Q. Did they obey him?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. What was Goran Jelisic's position, from your

    25 impression, from what you saw? What was his position

  79. 1 with regard to other soldiers?

    2 A. I saw that, and it was as if he were stronger

    3 than they were or that he ordered them or something

    4 like that, since they did not dare oppose him.

    5 Q. Did you see Goran counting money in front of

    6 you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did he make any comments in this regard?

    9 A. Yes. He showed me an amount of money and

    10 said that a man had given him money so that he would

    11 not kill him, and he said, "I took the money and I

    12 killed him nevertheless."

    13 Q. Do you remember any comments, Goran Jelisic's

    14 comments about the morning coffees he has every

    15 morning?

    16 A. Yes. He said to me that in the morning, when

    17 he would get up, before he would take his coffee, he'd

    18 have to kill 20 to 30 people.

    19 Q. Was that comment made by him the same night,

    20 in the same office?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Was there an attorney from Brcko among the

    23 prisoners in the hangar?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Was his wife also in Luka?

  80. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Can you tell the Court what you know about

    3 this couple in Luka? What happened to them?

    4 A. The attorney's name was Osman Vatic. He was

    5 a disabled man. He used to be a very good swimmer. A

    6 corpulent man.

    7 For a few days, together with his wife -- for

    8 a few days they allowed him to spend the day with his

    9 wife and in the evening they would put him into the

    10 hangar with us. Then throughout the night he would

    11 walk with one foot only because he only had one foot,

    12 and then we would hear him all night. Often they would

    13 take him out, they would beat him up badly, and several

    14 times he was returned to the hangar unconscious.

    15 His wife was in those offices all the time.

    16 She was never in the hangar.

    17 When he was transferred from Luka to

    18 Batkovic, they let him go home, and I heard that they

    19 killed him at his own threshold.

    20 Q. Do you know what was happening to his wife

    21 when she was in the office building and he was in the

    22 hangar?

    23 A. While we were there, while we were in Luka,

    24 in addition to his wife there were two other women. On

    25 one occasion, one of the guards in the hangar told us

  81. 1 that they were below us who were in the hangar. Then

    2 screaming could be heard.

    3 What happened over there I cannot say,

    4 because I didn't see it for myself.

    5 Q. How did the lawyer, the husband, react to

    6 that at night when he heard all this screaming?

    7 A. Several times he cried. He sobbed, but it

    8 didn't do him any good at all. He could not have

    9 changed the situation at all. Not only him, but not

    10 any one of us who was there at the hanger.

    11 Q. Thank you, Witness L. We can move to the

    12 lists. The first one is Exhibit 12.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Can we move into private

    14 session?

    15 [Private session]

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  82. 1












    13 pages 1312-1320 redacted private session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 [Open session]


    2 Q. Mr. L, you said that Goran Jelisic, when you

    3 were in the office room, he told you that he killed the

    4 man who gave him the money. What else did he tell you

    5 about what he did?

    6 A. I don't know. I --

    7 Q. Did he mention anything about the bridge?

    8 A. Yes. He said that he had put 750 kilograms

    9 on the bridge and that he was the one who blew it up,

    10 and he said that on Radak bridge, there were 450

    11 kilograms of explosives which he also put there, and

    12 that he put 750 kilograms on the Brcko bridge.

    13 Q. You also mentioned that two brothers from

    14 Zvornik were killed and you witnessed that.

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Do you remember who killed them?

    17 A. When we came from Laser, at the entrance to

    18 the hangar, we all had to empty our pockets and take

    19 off all that we had around our wrists, whether watches

    20 or jewellery or things, and when we were in there, Goran

    21 entered and called out for two men from Zvornik to come

    22 out. As they were coming out from the crowd, he began

    23 to beat them and took them into the office, and when he

    24 came out of the office, he continued beating them, and

    25 they were imploring him, saying "Why? Why?" And he

  3. 1 killed them both. Then he went back into the hangar

    2 and said that they were Green Berets and snipers at the

    3 Kula, at the tower in Zvornik.

    4 Q. Can you describe the place where those two

    5 were killed? Where were they killed?

    6 A. The place where there was the manhole, at the

    7 exit, as I come out of the hangar between the offices

    8 on the left-hand side.

    9 Q. Can you describe how the second brother was

    10 killed? What was Goran Jelisic's behaviour, how he

    11 behaved, when he killed the second brother?

    12 A. In cold blood, showed no mercy whatever.

    13 Q. Did he watch the body when he shot? What did

    14 you see?

    15 A. He was standing for a couple of minutes next

    16 to that, I presume just to be sure that he was really

    17 dead.

    18 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I have no further

    19 questions, Your Honours.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    21 take a 20-minute break, and then the Defence will ask

    22 you some questions, Witness L. Please do not move.

    23 The Judges are going to withdraw.

    24 We will resume at a quarter to.

    25 --- Recess taken at 4.25 p.m.

  4. 1 --- On resuming at 4.50 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    3 seated. We will resume our work, and without any

    4 further ado, we give the floor to Mr. Greaves.

    5 Approximately how much time are you going to

    6 need to cross-examine this witness, Mr. Greaves?

    7 MR. GREAVES: Between three-quarters of an

    8 hour and an hour.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    10 Three-quarters of an hour to an hour. Perhaps we will

    11 ask the interpreters, if we do have the hope of

    12 finishing tonight, that we can try to do so, but we'll

    13 apply this flexibly and within reasonable limits. If

    14 we can't finish in time, we'll start tomorrow at 9.00.

    15 Mr. Greaves, please proceed.

    16 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.

    17 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    18 Q. Mr. L, I'd like you to start, please, by

    19 looking at a document, which I think counsel for the

    20 Prosecution has.

    21 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I had arranged for

    22 a document to be ready to show to the witness. Thank

    23 you.

    24 Your Honour, this should not be placed on the

    25 ELMO, just given to the witness, please.

  5. 1 Q. Mr. L, do you see the document that has been

    2 placed in front of you?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Can you tell me, please, do you recognise

    5 that document?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Is that a statement which you made in May

    8 1995, I suspect, at the conclusion of a series of

    9 interviews conducted between the 17th and the 23rd of

    10 May, 1995?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Does it contain or does it bear your

    13 signature in a number of places, first of all, on the

    14 first page --

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. -- and then finally with your initials on

    17 each page after that?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. If you would please be kind enough to look at

    20 page 25 of that statement, does your signature appear

    21 on that page?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. For the sake of clarity, does it appear

    24 underneath six lines of text which are separated out on

    25 the page?

  6. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Thank you, Mr. L. Can you help us about

    3 this, please: The process by which that document was

    4 produced, which is your statement, you were

    5 interviewed, and then at the end of that, did you have

    6 that statement read aloud to you in your own language?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Again for the sake of clarity, the final

    9 signature on page 25 accompanies a statement that reads

    10 as follows:

    11 "This statement has been read over to me in

    12 the Bosnian language and is true to the best of my

    13 knowledge and recollection. I have given this

    14 statement voluntarily and am aware that it may be used

    15 in legal proceedings before the International Criminal

    16 Tribunal for the prosecution of persons responsible for

    17 serious violations of international law, committed in

    18 the territory of the former Yugoslavia since 1991, and

    19 that I may be called to give evidence in public before

    20 the Tribunal."

    21 Do you remember that being read out to you?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Were the matters that you recorded in your

    24 statement, as well as you've indicated there, true to

    25 the best of your knowledge and recollection, were they

  7. 1 also accurate; is that your evidence?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. L. I don't need you

    4 to look at that at the moment now.

    5 Can I turn, please, to this: During the war

    6 that we know took place in the early 1990s in your

    7 country, did you serve in the military forces of any of

    8 the participants?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Before the war, did you take any part in

    11 politics, whether as a party member or as an activist

    12 of any kind?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. During or since the war, did you take up

    15 politics in any way by joining a political party or

    16 becoming an active member of a political party?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. I want to ask you, you were asked about the

    19 summary that you gave, in part of which you refer to

    20 events that precede the outbreak of fighting, and I

    21 just want to ask you two quick questions about that,

    22 please, Mr. L.

    23 Prior to fighting breaking out, is it correct

    24 that there were, to your knowledge, negotiations

    25 underway between the various ethnic groups about the

  8. 1 division of Brcko into ethnic areas?

    2 A. Yes. There was a meeting at the cultural

    3 centre, and the SDS, SDA, and HDZ met there to agree

    4 that Serbs should get the centre, Srpska Varos, and the

    5 industrial area. The meeting was to be resumed on the

    6 4th of May, but it was never resumed because the war

    7 had broken out already.

    8 Q. Was one of the participants in that process

    9 the mayor of Brcko, Mustafa Ramic?

    10 A. Yes, and he kept telling the citizens of

    11 Brcko on the radio and television that it was peace,

    12 that there would not be any war, and people who were

    13 fleeing from the war, they were coming into our town

    14 and they were crossing our bridge, which was still in

    15 one piece, and nevertheless, the mayor continued,

    16 saying that there would be no war. So some people had

    17 already left the town of Brcko and came back; some

    18 unfortunately stayed there forever.

    19 Q. Mr. L, I want now to move to an incident

    20 which, I think, you became aware of on April the 30th.

    21 Did you become or were you awoken by a detonation,

    22 which, in due course, proved to be an explosion at the

    23 bridge?

    24 A. Yes, Thursday, the 30th of April, in the

    25 morning.

  9. 1 Q. Did you, in due course, go to the scene of

    2 what had happened?

    3 A. Yes, indeed. I took my vehicle to go there

    4 to see what had happened because I, my family, and the

    5 whole town were awakened by the detonation, and we

    6 jumped out of our beds. My wife thought that it was a

    7 plane crashing down, but I immediately thought that it

    8 could be the bridge, and I went there and I saw bodies

    9 of people scattered all around.

    10 Q. Does it come to this: that the bridge, the

    11 physical structure of the bridge had been very badly

    12 damaged, and some three buses, fully loaded with

    13 passengers, had been caught in the explosion that had

    14 taken place on the bridge?

    15 A. Yes, because on -- in the night between

    16 Wednesday and Thursday, three buses had come from the

    17 place called -- come to a place called Vunja on the

    18 Croatian side, and every night, because every night the

    19 bridge would be between 10.00 at night until 5.00 in

    20 the morning.

    21 So at about twenty to five, some women and

    22 children had asked our side to let them through. When

    23 our side let them through and when the other side saw

    24 they had been let through, they let those come onto the

    25 bridge, and the explosion took place at the moment when

  10. 1 a large number of people were between those two pillars

    2 of the bridge.

    3 Q. Is this correct: that in that incident that

    4 a large number of people had been either killed or

    5 wounded?

    6 A. I remember that perhaps 100 to 200 people

    7 were on that part of the bridge at the time.

    8 Q. Of those 100 to 200 people, a large number

    9 were killed?

    10 A. Yes. Yes. Only a few were transferred to

    11 the hospital for treatment.

    12 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you now, please,

    13 about your evacuation or your going to the medical

    14 centre.

    15 I'm sorry. Let me start that again. It

    16 wasn't a well-asked question.

    17 I want to ask about May the 3rd and 4th.

    18 Were a number of people from the -- I'm sorry, my

    19 pronunciation is not very good -- Mujdenovaca of Brcko

    20 made to go to the medical centre and the mosque near

    21 the medical centre?

    22 A. Yes. It's opposite from the mosque, and the

    23 medical centre was there and that's where they were

    24 taken, the basement.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'd like to just

  11. 1 briefly go into a private session because I'm going to

    2 deal with a name which is, in fact, on the list, but it

    3 comes convenient at this particular point.

    4 [Private session]

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  12. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (Open Session)

    20 MR. GREAVES:

    21 Q. Turning now to Monday, May the 4th, Mr. L,

    22 you were taken, I think on that occasion, in a column

    23 of something like 40 people, towards the white mosque.

    24 Do you remember that?

    25 A. Yes. Yes, to Dr. Sajdovic, a gynaecologist,

  13. 1 into his big house.

    2 Q. I think that doctor had gone elsewhere before

    3 the events of May 1992 and his house was empty.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Is this correct: that there was something

    6 like between 200 and 300 people gathered at the house

    7 when you got there?

    8 A. Yes. There were so many that I was

    9 practically at the door. Not anyone else could fit

    10 in.

    11 Q. The 200 to 300 people and the people in your

    12 column, were they of all ages and sexes or were they

    13 just men? Can you help us about that, please?

    14 A. Yes, men, women, and children, and old men,

    15 and young people.

    16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'd like to go

    17 into private session for reasons similar to the last

    18 private session, please.

    19 [Private session]

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  14. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 [Open session]

    13 MR. GREAVES:

    14 Q. Having been at the house for something like

    15 two hours, is this correct: Transport arrived and the

    16 women, and children, and those who were not of military

    17 age were separated from those who were?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. The women, children, and the men who were not

    20 of military age, were they taken -- do you know where

    21 they were taken?

    22 A. No. No. That moment we did not know. They

    23 only said that they were taking them to a safe place.

    24 Q. Those who remained at the house, about 80 to

    25 100 men, is this correct: that they were selected for

  15. 1 detention, their continued detention there because they

    2 were considered to be militarily capable?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. You were then taken to the barracks, and in

    5 due course --

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. -- were you able -- when you were at the

    8 barracks, did you become aware that there was shooting

    9 taking place?

    10 A. Yes, there was shooting taking place. A lot

    11 of shooting was taking place. So we kept saying that

    12 we should lie down, duck, and get up, and then lie down

    13 again, and then get up again.

    14 Q. Is this correct: that you were able to -- or

    15 you concluded that what was taking place was sniper

    16 fire?

    17 A. Yes, because they started shouting when they

    18 told us to lie down, that snipers were shooting and

    19 that they could hit us too.

    20 Q. Is this correct: that in the -- what then

    21 took place when this sniper fire broke out, you were

    22 able to conclude that the Serbian military people had

    23 been caught very much by surprise by the outbreak of

    24 that firing?

    25 A. Yes. They were caught by surprise too,

  16. 1 because they probably didn't expect that shooting.

    2 Q. I think you were given information about

    3 where the women, and children, and the elderly were

    4 going to be taken. Is that correct?

    5 A. Yes. They were supposed to be taken to

    6 Bjeljina or Razljevo. My wife and children were

    7 brought in, and also my sister-in-law and her children,

    8 and I said they should go to Bjeljina rather than

    9 Razljevo.

    10 Q. In any event, to cut it short, your family

    11 were taken away and the other women and children were

    12 taken away that day, were they?

    13 A. Yes. Yes, and old men.

    14 Q. How many people did that leave at the

    15 barracks?

    16 A. I imagine between 200 and 300, because three

    17 buses were taken, and they would load as many as people

    18 as possible into every bus, as many as could be in

    19 there standing or sitting, and they had a military

    20 escort as well.

    21 Q. Subsequently, Mr. L, were you -- at about

    22 8.00 or so, did you end up at the Laser Bus Company?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. You were placed in a building which had,

    25 before the war, served as the works canteen?

  17. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Is this correct: that the canteen building

    3 is divided into two principal parts, one the sort of

    4 eating hall and a second smaller part at the back of

    5 the building which are the kitchens and storerooms?

    6 A. Yes. These guards that -- Dragan said that

    7 everything that was there available could be used.

    8 Q. The people who were detained there with you,

    9 were you kept in the main part, the eating hall part,

    10 or in the -- in both parts of the building or only in

    11 the kitchen part?

    12 A. In the eating hall part. The women and

    13 children were in the office of this head of the

    14 kitchen.

    15 Q. Is this correct, Mr. L: that the -- as the

    16 evening wore on, it became dark and some emergency

    17 lights were put on?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Four of them in all, which gave off a dim

    20 yellow glow?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Presumably it was difficult to see what was

    23 going on in the canteen by such light?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You've described to us someone coming and

  18. 1 calling himself "Adolf" in that conversation. Had you

    2 ever seen that person before?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. In the canteen, how far away were you from

    5 the person you claimed said that? How far away were

    6 you?

    7 A. Forty-five metres.

    8 Q. Help me, please, about this: Is this right,

    9 that the description you gave of the man Goran Jelisic

    10 to the Office of the Prosecutor read as follows: "He

    11 was 26 to 27 years old; approximately 180 centimetres

    12 tall; had medium length light brown to blonde-coloured

    13 hair; blue eyes; weighed 68 to 72 kilograms; and had

    14 a well-proportioned, medium build"?

    15 Do you recall giving that description of

    16 Goran Jelisic?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. That's the description that you put in your

    19 statement in May 1995, a statement which you have

    20 described as containing accurate information? Do you

    21 accept that?

    22 A. Yes, 100 per cent, 100 per cent.

    23 Q. How did you learn the name "Goran Jelisic,"

    24 Mr. L?

    25 A. As soon as we were transferred to Luka, and

  19. 1 that night, when he came, he introduced himself.

    2 Q. See, what I must put to you, Mr. L, is that

    3 the person you describe as Goran Jelisic cannot be

    4 Goran Jelisic because of the inaccuracy of your

    5 description, and let me explain exactly why.

    6 Firstly, Goran Jelisic, in 1992, did not have

    7 light brown to blonde-coloured hair, and, secondly, far

    8 from having blue eyes, he is a man with brown eyes.

    9 I, therefore, put it to you that you have got

    10 the wrong person.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that

    12 you should rephrase that question because you're

    13 affirming things which one would then assume would have

    14 to be developed. So please reformulate the question.

    15 Try to be more nuanced or else bring out an evaluation

    16 which would show what he looked like. I don't think

    17 that we can allow ourselves to say to a witness, "What

    18 you're saying is wrong because I, Mr. Greaves, assert

    19 that he is as this and that." I don't think that you

    20 can -- I'm sure that you can rephrase your question.

    21 MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would just give

    22 me a moment, please.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    24 MR. GREAVES:

    25 Q. Mr. L, would you accept that it is possible

  20. 1 that you have got the wrong person when you describe

    2 Goran Jelisic as having those characteristics?

    3 A. No, I did not make a mistake.

    4 Q. If the person that the Court, the Tribunal,

    5 knows as Goran Jelisic, in fact, turns out to have

    6 brown eyes, that would be different, would it not, from

    7 the person you have described as having blue eyes?

    8 A. I was where I was, I said what I said, and

    9 what I said is true.

    10 Q. If we have a picture here at the Tribunal of

    11 what is acknowledged to be Goran Jelisic and it shows

    12 that he had brown hair, again that would be different,

    13 would it not, from someone with light brown to

    14 blonde-coloured hair?

    15 A. I'm certain of my statement.

    16 Q. All right.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation]

    18 Mr. Tochilovsky?

    19 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Your Honours, the Defence

    20 allege that -- if we have a picture, and then he said

    21 that the accused Goran Jelisic would look in the

    22 picture such and such a way, in this case, the picture

    23 should be shown.

    24 MR. GREAVES: Yes, I'm perfectly content that

    25 that should be so. I think it's Exhibit 3.

  21. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The criterion

    2 of the hair is not absolutely the criterion. It's not

    3 because you're wearing a wig today which says that the

    4 colour of your hair is something that it might not be.

    5 The colour of the eyes is one element, but you have to

    6 go to the very end of what you're trying to demonstrate

    7 at the proper moment. Thank you.

    8 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Would you like the

    9 picture to be shown? Thank you.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right.

    11 Thank you.

    12 MR. GREAVES: I'm dependent on the

    13 registrar.

    14 [Trial Chamber confers]

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar,

    16 do you have that colour photograph?

    17 THE REGISTRAR: I don't have a photograph,

    18 unless I've misunderstood something.

    19 MR. GREAVES: I think it's described as a

    20 copy of a photograph which had formerly been published

    21 by The Washington Post.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] It's in colour,

    23 I assume.

    24 MR. GREAVES: It wouldn't be a very useful

    25 exercise if it was in black and white, and I wouldn't

  22. 1 do it.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    3 THE REGISTRAR: This is a photograph which

    4 shows two people from the back.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    6 the photograph, have you seen it? This is the

    7 photograph that's being shown.

    8 MR. GREAVES:

    9 Q. Do you see that photograph, Mr. L?

    10 A. I see it.

    11 Q. Do you see the man on the left whose back is

    12 towards you with, I think, a bandage on his arm?

    13 A. Yes, Goran.

    14 Q. Would you --

    15 A. Goran Jelisic.

    16 Q. Would you agree with me that the colour of

    17 the hair which we can see in that photograph is not

    18 light brown to blonde?

    19 A. That's the way it was to me at that time.

    20 Q. Thank you.

    21 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    22 Honour.

    23 Q. In due course, you were taken to Luka. Did

    24 you arrive at Luka on May the 8th, in the morning?

    25 A. No, after noon, after 12.00 on Friday, the

  23. 1 8th of May.

    2 Q. How many nights in all did you spend at Luka?

    3 A. Only one night on that occasion.

    4 Q. When you got to Luka, were you the first

    5 people to arrive there?

    6 A. No. There were very many people there.

    7 Q. In the group that you were with, brought from

    8 the Laser company, how many were there?

    9 A. Three buses.

    10 Q. What, about 150 people, 200 people; would

    11 that be fair?

    12 A. Well, between 200, 250, 300 people.

    13 Q. Is it correct that you entered the Luka

    14 facility through what might properly be described as

    15 the rear entrance?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Having arrived with the buses, did the buses

    18 go to, as it were, the last hangar before you go out of

    19 what is, I think, the other entrance?

    20 A. The last hangar from the rear entrance into

    21 Luka.

    22 Q. I wonder if you could have a look at a

    23 photograph, please.

    24 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just

    25 give me a moment, please. It's that photograph. It's

  24. 1 the aerial view of the Luka facility.

    2 MR. NICE: Number 9.

    3 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. I'm

    4 grateful to my learned friend.

    5 Q. Now, Witness L, I think there's a pointer,

    6 which you will have put in your hands by the usher, and

    7 if you could use the pointer to indicate as I ask my

    8 questions of you. Don't lean forward because that may

    9 involve you being seen on the television cameras. Do

    10 you understand that?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Could you please, by pointing to the

    13 photograph that is there to your right, indicate where

    14 it was that the buses on which you were being

    15 transported came to a halt and from which you then got

    16 off?

    17 A. They came here [indicating], they stopped

    18 here [indicating], and we boarded off here

    19 [indicating].

    20 Q. So right outside what is the door to the

    21 hangar, which is at the end of that group of hangars.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Thank you very much. I don't need you to

    24 point any more at the moment. I may want to ask you

    25 some more questions.

  25. 1 Having got off the bus, did you go --

    2 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    4 this is in respect of the organisation of our work in

    5 respect of the interpreters.

    6 At what time did we begin the

    7 cross-examination, Mr. Registrar?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: At 5.00.

    9 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I fear my estimate

    10 may have been slightly out. I gave it a bit quickly,

    11 and I may have been slightly wrong, so I've still got a

    12 little bit to do with this, and it may be a little more

    13 than I thought, just so that you know.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But what I

    15 would also like to tell you is that very frequently you

    16 go back to points that are not challenged by anybody.

    17 I mean, the buses that were stopped there were never

    18 challenged by your client. Therefore, you must also

    19 try to take into account, even if ordinarily you have

    20 the right to conduct your cross-examination as you

    21 like, which is a right which is absolutely recognised

    22 to you, but I also use the Rules and the Statute in

    23 order to be in a position to conduct this trial as I

    24 understand how it should be, that there are imperatives

    25 that must meet one another on both sides.

  26. 1 When there are elements which have been more

    2 or less established, one must not go back to them in

    3 great detail. The buses arrived at the hangar; I think

    4 this is something which has been acknowledged more or

    5 less, even if it were nothing more than the plea of

    6 guilt, and I've already said that.

    7 MR. GREAVES: Sometimes one wants to

    8 establish whether or not a witness is in a position to

    9 see something or inspect something and then one wants

    10 just to find out whether he saw any particular things.

    11 Perhaps I can just develop it a bit, please.

    12 Q. Mr. L, you --

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] He has already

    14 answered. I can point out to you that these are

    15 questions that have already been asked. Continue, but

    16 try to focus your questions, please.

    17 MR. GREAVES:

    18 Q. Mr. L, how long was it that you were standing

    19 outside that building?

    20 A. As soon as we alighted from that bus, at the

    21 entrance into the building, there was a table, and two

    22 men were standing by this table, and we had to empty

    23 our pockets and take off our watches or rings or

    24 whatever we had.

    25 Q. Did you have an opportunity to look at the

  27. 1 building which was the hangar?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Was there anything about the building which

    4 struck you as being unusual or any damage to it that

    5 you noted at that point?

    6 A. There were no window-panes left on the

    7 building after the detonation at the bridge.

    8 Q. For example, on either side of the door to

    9 that end hangar, the walls, had they been damaged in

    10 any way at the time when you were there?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Thank you.

    13 MR. GREAVES: I've finished with the

    14 photograph. Thank you very much, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to

    16 stop in five minutes for the interpreters.

    17 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] But I ask that

    19 your time be limited tomorrow. You must focus your

    20 questions, Mr. Greaves.

    21 MR. GREAVES:

    22 Q. Mr. L, during the course of the 8th of May,

    23 were people being released as well as brought in to

    24 Luka that you could see?

    25 A. Yes. About 80 to 100 people were released

  28. 1 that day. They were issued passes to go home.

    2 Q. Did you see the passes that were being

    3 issued? Can you describe them, if so?

    4 A. It was about that big [indicating].

    5 Q. So about eight or nine centimetres by six;

    6 would that be fair?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Apart from physically seeing the size of it,

    9 did you see what was written on any of the passes? Did

    10 anybody show you one that day?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Were you interrogated at all that day?

    13 A. I was not because I spent the whole night in

    14 the office, and Goran Jelisic was next to me.

    15 Q. Did you become aware of two particular police

    16 inspectors at the Luka facility?

    17 A. Yes. There was Dragisa from the police, who

    18 used to work with files, and Petar Kaurinovic.

    19 Q. Is this correct: that those two men were

    20 employed as criminal police inspectors with the SUP in

    21 Brcko?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. And were they conducting interrogations of

    24 people who had been detained?

    25 A. Yes.

  29. 1 Q. And were they in charge of those

    2 interrogations?

    3 A. Whether they were in charge or not, I do not

    4 know, but I do know that they were police inspectors

    5 and had come there with the files, allegedly.

    6 Q. I'm sorry. I interrupted you and I apologise

    7 for doing that. Did you hear from any of the other

    8 prisoners what it was they were interested in in the

    9 course of the interrogations?

    10 A. Others told me that they acted like judges

    11 there. But what questions they asked, I don't know.

    12 Q. They acted like judges in that they decided

    13 who it was who was to be killed and who was not to be

    14 killed; is that right?

    15 A. I guess so.

    16 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I'm coming to

    17 another topic. I wonder whether that is a convenient

    18 moment at which to break.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, that is an

    20 appropriate moment to stop.

    21 All right. We will resume tomorrow at 9.00.

    22 About how long do you think you're going to

    23 need tomorrow morning, Mr. Greaves?

    24 MR. GREAVES: I'm going to try and cut it

    25 down overnight, if I may, and I would hope to finish in

  30. 1 under 20 minutes, if I have an opportunity to cut it

    2 down.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The interpreter

    4 said "20 years." I think that was a mistake in the

    5 interpretation. The interpreters are tired. Twenty

    6 minutes, yes.

    7 MR. GREAVES: I need to go through the list,

    8 and that will make it slightly longer than 20 minutes.

    9 I'm sorry. I'm quite tired as well.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] So we're

    11 starting with the idea of 40 minutes, and let's try to

    12 keep it more or less at 20 minutes, which would then

    13 allow us to know whether Mr. Tochilovsky has any

    14 further questions, and then I'm sure that the Judges

    15 will have a few questions to ask.

    16 Then at 10.00 -- I mean, in the meantime, we

    17 will have news from Mr. Jelisic, either he will be here

    18 or he won't, and in any case, we will conduct the

    19 cross-examination of Witness K.

    20 Court stands adjourned. We will resume

    21 tomorrow at 9.00.

    22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    23 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

    24 the 10th day of September, 1999, at

    25 9.00 a.m.