1. 1 Tuesday, 14th September, 1999

    2 [Open session]

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 --- Upon commencing at 10.02 a.m.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You may be

    6 seated.

    7 Mr. Registrar, will you please have the

    8 accused brought in.

    9 [The accused entered court]

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Everybody is

    11 here.

    12 The interpreters, can you hear me? I hear

    13 you.

    14 I should like to say good morning to the

    15 counsel for the Prosecution, and counsel for Defence,

    16 and the witness, and the accused, and without further

    17 adieu, I should like Witness N to stand up.

    18 Can you hear me? Witness, can you hear me?

    19 It is the President who is addressing you in front of

    20 you.

    21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Right. Now,

    23 first you have to see whether that is your name. This

    24 is the piece of paper, so will you please indicate

    25 whether this is your name. But do not pronounce it

  2. 1 aloud, because there are people in the public gallery,

    2 listening to you. Is that your name?

    3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Now, will you

    5 stay on your feet and take the solemn declaration. You

    6 will read it in your mother tongue. We are listening

    7 to you.

    8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    9 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    10 and nothing but the truth


    12 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. You

    14 may now be seated. We shall be calling you Witness N,

    15 because we have taken protective measures at your

    16 request.

    17 You were called by the Prosecution, which is

    18 to your right, to testify in a case against the

    19 accused, Goran Jelisic, and he is to your left.

    20 After the Prosecution has examined you and

    21 asked you all the questions they want to, you'll also

    22 be asked some questions by the Defence.

    23 You are now before the Judges. You have

    24 nothing to fear. You can speak very freely, and we

    25 hope that will make you feel good.

  3. 1 Mr. Nice, the floor is yours. No, it is

    2 Mr. Tochilovsky. It is Mr. Tochilovsky who will be

    3 asking you some questions.

    4 Yes, Mr. Tochilovsky.

    5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Could you put the summary

    6 of the witness statement in front of him? Thank you.

    7 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    8 Q. Witness N, this is the summary you had an

    9 opportunity to read and recognise as a correct summary

    10 of your statement given to the OTP; is it right?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Witness N, did you live in Brcko before the

    13 war?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you remember, on May the 1st, 1992, that a

    16 well-armed group of men came to Brcko?

    17 A. I do, yes. I remember it from stories.

    18 Q. Did you notice any changes in the local radio

    19 broadcast after May the 1st?

    20 A. Yes. It was the Serb Radio Brcko. It was a

    21 regular radio station before the war, and then they

    22 renamed it the Serb Radio Brcko, and then it began to

    23 broadcast some programmes and things.

    24 Q. Were houses looted at that time after May the

    25 1st?

  4. 1 A. Right away, as from the beginning, that is,

    2 as of the 1st of May when war broke out in

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and as soon as the war broke out,

    4 the systematic looting of houses started.

    5 First they looted houses of people who were

    6 employed abroad, and they presumably had very reliable

    7 information as to which houses were empty, which owners

    8 were away. And those first ones who came, they took

    9 things which were more valuable or, rather, those which

    10 were lighter but more valuable and could sell easier

    11 and better, and we had an opportunity to see that. In

    12 the beginning, they did it only at night-time, but then

    13 it went on.

    14 Q. Who looted the houses?

    15 A. Well, in the beginning, it was armed soldiers

    16 or some special forces who came from Serbia or from

    17 somewhere, I don't know where, and they looted. They

    18 stole the most valuable things. But then the local

    19 people -- I mean what was left by these, the locals

    20 took away the rest of the things.

    21 Q. On May 5th, 1992, did the radio broadcast

    22 that all Muslims and Croats should gather?

    23 A. Yes. Well, I can't really say if it was

    24 broadcast by radio, but local Serbs, those who were

    25 there and those who were involved with those troops,

  5. 1 they told us that they had to evacuate us from there

    2 because it was a war operations area, and we sort of

    3 accepted that. But then it turned out not to be so.

    4 Q. Did you and other people go to the Laser

    5 Company, Laser Bus Company?

    6 A. Well, that area where I used to live, we were

    7 taken to that bus company called Laser, and then I

    8 don't know whether they were elsewhere too, but I know

    9 that they took them to the barracks and here and

    10 there. But I cannot confirm that.

    11 From the Laser, they only transferred elderly

    12 people, that is, over 60, and women and children. They

    13 transferred them to the territory over near Celic and

    14 places like that.

    15 Q. While at Laser Company, were you allowed to

    16 leave the area of the company?

    17 A. We were guarded. The first day, I remember,

    18 when I arrived there, we were guarded by local Serbs

    19 wearing olive-Gary SMB uniforms. We were not allowed

    20 to leave the compound of the company, but they did

    21 allow us to use a part of that compound around the

    22 canteen where we were kept.

    23 Q. Was there any food available to those who

    24 were detained at Laser?

    25 A. As far as I can remember, some acquaintances,

  6. 1 some Serbs whom I knew from before who worked with me,

    2 they brought and gave me, and a fellow worker gave me

    3 some bread, I believe half a kilogram of bread. I

    4 don't really remember if they gave us any food, but I

    5 don't think so.

    6 Q. For how long were you kept at Laser Company

    7 without any food?

    8 A. Well, two or three days. That is how long I

    9 was there.

    10 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened on the

    11 second night at Laser?

    12 A. The second night in Laser. Well, it was when

    13 I suffered a shock. That is, I saw certain things

    14 which I had never experienced in my life before,

    15 because all of us who were there simply did not think

    16 that it would be just as bad as it could get.

    17 That night, Mr. Goran Jelisic, with two of

    18 his chums, turned up. I believe that they still had

    19 masks over their faces, that is, masks where there were

    20 only slits for the eyes. In a rather harsh voice, he

    21 said, "Muslims, in case you didn't know, my name is

    22 Goran Jelisic, nicknamed Adolf. I've killed 80 Muslims

    23 so far, and I'll finish all of you too."

    24 Then they started calling out some surnames.

    25 If I remember properly, Causevic, I remember that

  7. 1 particular surname because they were kind of organisers

    2 in the SDA party and things like that. And then they

    3 began to beat people.

    4 They were asking for documents, for money

    5 from us, and there were screams and blows. Then after

    6 awhile they left and I can't tell you anything else.

    7 Q. On May 8th, were you and some other people

    8 taken to the Luka camp?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you see Jelisic, who called himself

    11 "Adolf"? Did you see him at the camp upon your

    12 arrival?

    13 A. I did.

    14 Q. Can you tell the court the circumstances in

    15 which you saw him again upon your arrival?

    16 A. On the 8th of May, we were transferred from

    17 Laser to Luka. It was four or five bus loads, if I can

    18 remember properly. It was there that I saw Mr. Goran

    19 Jelisic for a second time.

    20 As soon as we got off the buses, our identity

    21 documents or, rather, any documents, any personal

    22 papers we had were taken away from us, or whatever

    23 personal luggage we had with us, a bag or something

    24 like that.

    25 Then -- I don't know how to put it, really --

  8. 1 that massive killing of people began. Then calling

    2 people out, provoking beatings, blows, and killings

    3 which were carried out by Jelisic.

    4 That was my second encounter with him, the

    5 second chance I had seeing him.

    6 Q. Do you remember what happened to two brothers

    7 from Zvornik at Luka?

    8 A. Well, yes. That has stuck in my memory

    9 somehow, because those guys were really young and they

    10 looked well. They stuck in my mind.

    11 I believe it was right away, as soon as we

    12 arrived. Jelisic called them out and began cursing and

    13 saying, "You've come from Zvornik to provoke war

    14 here." We heard -- when he took him out from the

    15 hangar, as you call it, where we were put up, and we

    16 heard people being beaten, who were crying with pain,

    17 moaning. I don't know how to put it. After that we

    18 heard shots. So I inferred that they had been killed.

    19 They were the first ones who were killed after my

    20 arrival in Luka.

    21 Q. Were those two brothers interrogated, went

    22 through an interrogation before they were taken out and

    23 killed, or were they just called out and --

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor,

    25 will you please remember what Mr. Greaves said

  9. 1 yesterday? Will you please try to focus your questions

    2 on what you're seeking to prove, that is, the elements

    3 of genocide.

    4 May I remind you that this murder was

    5 confessed to, that the accused confessed to this murder

    6 and it was Count 17.

    7 Now you can move on, please.


    9 Q. So were those people interrogated before they

    10 were killed?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Did you move the bodies of those killed,

    13 while you were in the camp?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. How many bodies did you yourself move?

    16 A. I cannot really be 100 per cent sure, whether

    17 it was 12 or 15 bodies which I had to carry, but that

    18 was about that.

    19 Q. Did other detainees move the bodies as well?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did you see what kind of wounds those bodies

    22 had when you moved the bodies?

    23 A. The bodies that I carried, and we usually

    24 took them away in foursomes, that is, four people to

    25 carry the dead, they more often than not had injuries

  10. 1 from blows. They were killed, as I tend to put it, in

    2 the same way; that is, with a shot at the back of their

    3 heads, if you understand what I mean.

    4 Q. Did those prisoners who were taken out and

    5 never returned killed? Were those prisoners selected

    6 from others, if they were selected, and on which

    7 principle and how were they selected?

    8 A. Well, in my opinion, in my judgement -- I

    9 don't know how to put it -- they singled out first men

    10 with a particular surname or perhaps people who had

    11 nothing to do with it, that is, they were people of the

    12 same surname and who were not related or anything, but

    13 more or less, people who were prominent in the SDA

    14 leadership in Brcko at the time, such as, for instance,

    15 the surname such as Causevic and other surnames. In

    16 the beginning, they mostly took those people out.

    17 There were also instances when they took out

    18 people -- I don't really know. I mean, you know, they

    19 just took out people because they liked their looks or

    20 because they liked something or because they simply --

    21 that would be it.

    22 Q. Apart from seeing people taken out, killed,

    23 apart from seeing the bodies you moved, did you see any

    24 killings yourself, killings by Goran Jelisic?

    25 A. Yes.

  11. 1 Q. Can you describe to the court what you saw?

    2 A. Yes. Well, it was like this: On the second

    3 day at Luka, I began to carry the bodies of the

    4 killed. On my way back -- and I believe I've indicated

    5 on the sketch -- we took those people to a particular

    6 place where we would leave the bodies of the killed

    7 there and come back to that hangar.

    8 As we came near the hangar, near the entrance

    9 into the hangar, Jelisic took out a young man whom I

    10 knew by sight. I did not live in Brcko for quite some

    11 time. I had arrived there only of late. I remember

    12 the face of that young man sticks in my memory to this

    13 day. He was very thin, he was shorter than I, and he

    14 didn't have much hair. I could see by his looks that

    15 he had been beaten before, because he had bruises and

    16 he seemed very depressed and silent.

    17 Jelisic was taking him out of the hangar and

    18 took him to the grate -- I also indicated that place --

    19 and he fired. This lad, he never put up any resistance

    20 as he was taken out. He was quite quiet, quite

    21 subdued. I don't know whether it was fear or

    22 depression, but did he not resist. He did not, whether

    23 he accepted his fate or something.

    24 At that moment he fired at his head or,

    25 rather, he made him lean over that grate -- I don't

  12. 1 know how to put it -- and fired at his head, and told

    2 us, "Don't go in. There's no need for you to go in.

    3 You can carry this one too straightaway." Naturally,

    4 we did that.

    5 Q. So he told you to take the body?

    6 A. Mr. Jelisic.

    7 Q. And another killing you saw?

    8 A. Yes. I saw yet another murder committed by

    9 Mr. Jelisic. That was a few days later. A group of us

    10 was taken to the police station, it was called MUP,

    11 Ministry of the Interior, to clear the broken glass,

    12 the splinters following the detonation on the bridge

    13 over the Sava. As they were coming out of the hangar,

    14 somebody comes, a policemen or some escorts come to

    15 take us there.

    16 Then we were coming out, but Jelisic had

    17 brought, I believe from the police station, an elderly

    18 man. At that time, I believe, he used a car,

    19 Zastava 101. If I remember properly, it was a police

    20 vehicle. It belonged to MUP.

    21 He dragged, brutally, the man from that car,

    22 accompanied by his usual -- by his routine

    23 vituperations and curses and expressions that were

    24 simply beyond comprehension, all sorts of expletives,

    25 dragged him out and fired to his head.

  13. 1 Then we were taken to the police station to

    2 clear the broken glass.

    3 Q. How old was the man?

    4 A. Well, it's difficult for me. I really spent

    5 a lot of time reckoning how old he might be, but he

    6 looked of quite an advanced age. It could have

    7 been -- well, I'm almost afraid to say that he was in

    8 his 60s. He definitely looked like a man of advanced

    9 age.

    10 Q. Did Goran Jelisic accuse him of anything or

    11 just killed him?

    12 A. I do not know if he accused him of anything.

    13 It usually came down to curses, to abusive language, to

    14 blows. I did not hear that he accused him of

    15 anything.

    16 Q. You've already mentioned that you had to move

    17 bodies in the camp. How many --

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. How many bodies did you see at the place

    20 where you took the bodies?

    21 A. Would you please clarify this question,

    22 please, because we took the bodies to a particular

    23 place. Whenever people were killed, the bodies were

    24 taken to this place where we left them.

    25 Q. How many bodies did you see there?

  14. 1 A. Well, to the best of my knowledge and

    2 according to my very own estimate, you cannot really

    3 tell whether it's 100 per cent sure, but I saw five

    4 times 20 men respectively, because they were piled up,

    5 as I say, like firewood.

    6 Q. Do you know how those bodies were taken out

    7 from Luka?

    8 A. It so happened that I managed to see this.

    9 One morning, early, we took the bodies, and I

    10 saw a truck. The truck belonged to a well-known

    11 company in Brcko called Bimeks. It was involved in

    12 meat processing. It was a two-ton truck, kind of a

    13 cooler which transported meat, and I saw two men in

    14 olive-gray uniforms that were loading the bodies into

    15 the truck and taking it somewhere.

    16 Q. How often did you see that truck at Luka?

    17 A. I saw it only once, once, but I heard others

    18 say that these bodies were always driven away. The

    19 bodies that were accumulated during the course of one

    20 day would invariably be driven away, so in fact they

    21 had to be driven away every day.

    22 Q. You already mentioned that Goran Jelisic beat

    23 prisoners at the camp. Did he use any objects to beat

    24 prisoners?

    25 A. I usually say that he used all sorts of

  15. 1 things, whatever he would think of; batons, sticks,

    2 electric cables. "Electric cable" is the words I used

    3 in my statement. Telephone cables, whatever he could

    4 lay his hands on.

    5 Q. You already told that Goran Jelisic

    6 mentioned, at Laser Company, how many Muslims he

    7 killed. Did he mention any numbers at Luka; did you

    8 hear that?

    9 A. Yes, yes. Once in Luka, perhaps it was

    10 around noon time, he said, "Well, I've killed seven

    11 people so far. I'm going to kill another eight, and

    12 that will do for the day."

    13 Q. Did he ever mention what the fate of Muslims

    14 was supposed to be?

    15 A. Yes. He would often tell us that we Muslims

    16 who remain alive would not be able to work even in a

    17 kiosk. You probably know what that is. That is a shop

    18 where they sell newspapers, a kiosk.

    19 Q. Were some prisoners released from Luka camp?

    20 Were some of them released from Luka camp?

    21 A. In the beginning, when we arrived in Luka, I

    22 remember that some inspectors came in from MUP. I

    23 can't remember their names right this moment, and they

    24 interrogated people. Some people were released as

    25 well, probably people that they needed right then; for

  16. 1 example, bakers, electricians, things like that. They

    2 probably needed them then.

    3 Also, there were some other people, local

    4 Serbs, who were probably brave enough to come to Luka

    5 and to give some kind of a guarantee for someone, so

    6 such people would be released as well.

    7 Q. Were some of those who were released later

    8 rearrested? Do you know of such instances?

    9 A. I do. It would happen that a man would be

    10 released on one day and brought in the next day, so

    11 that was a kind of lottery as well.

    12 Q. After being released from Luka camp, were you

    13 then rearrested again?

    14 A. No, no, I was never released from Luka.

    15 Q. But you were transferred to Batkovic camp; is

    16 that correct?

    17 A. Yes. From Luka, I was transferred to

    18 Batkovici.

    19 Q. While at Batkovic, do you know whether

    20 prisoners were on some kind of list of some

    21 international organisations?

    22 A. Yes, yes. I was there too when the Red Cross

    23 came from Geneva. They made a list of people who were

    24 in the Batkovic camp at that time.

    25 Q. Did it make it safer for you, the fact that

  17. 1 you were on the Red Cross list?

    2 A. Well, practically, it was some kind of

    3 salvation for us. At least we thought that if the Red

    4 Cross registered us, they wouldn't dare to kill us, so

    5 it was a kind of salvation for us.

    6 Q. Was there this kind of list at Luka?

    7 A. Just a moment, please. Let me think about

    8 it. When did this happen.

    9 The first list was made in Luka, I think.

    10 This doesn't mean that it has to be the exact date, but

    11 it's the 20th of May or something like that. I

    12 remember that this list was made by (redacted)

    13 (redacted), and he came there as

    14 some kind of a commander of the guard. He's the one

    15 who made the first list that was drawn up in Luka.

    16 Q. Were there any killings after the list was

    17 made in late May at Luka?

    18 A. I cannot tell you exactly. I do not recall.

    19 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The following questions are

    20 on the list, so maybe we can go into private session.

    21 Exhibit 13.

    22 [Private session]

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  18. 1












    13 page 1568 redacted private session













  19. 1












    13 page 1569 redacted private session













  20. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 [Open session]

    4 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour asked me how long I

    5 was going to be. I think about an hour, but I hope

    6 slightly less.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Right. Very

    8 well. Yes. You can begin.

    9 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    10 Q. Witness N, I'm going to ask you some

    11 questions, but can you listen for a moment to this: If

    12 you don't understand the question which I ask you,

    13 please will you stop me immediately and ask me to

    14 rephrase it? Can you do that for me, please?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Will you help me please about this: Before

    17 the war broke out in Brcko in May 1992, were you

    18 engaged in politics in any way?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Have you become involved in politics since

    21 the war?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Thank you. Between 1992 and today, have you

    24 ever been in the Bosnia-Herzegovina army?

    25 A. No.

  21. 1 Q. I'd like to turn now, please, to the period

    2 or the time right at the end of April, beginning of

    3 May. This is a matter that you mentioned on the

    4 summary. As well as barricades being put up in Serbian

    5 areas, were you aware of barricades being put up in

    6 Muslim areas?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Were there armed patrols active at those

    9 barricades, those Muslim barricades?

    10 A. I did not see them, but some people talked

    11 about it as if they were active, but I don't know.

    12 Q. On May the 1st, 1992, is this right: that a

    13 number of armed men, described by you as specialists

    14 and well armed, came into your neighbourhood?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Is it right also that they were conducting a

    17 search for weapons?

    18 A. You'll have to clarify this question for me.

    19 They just asked people whether anybody had weapons at

    20 that moment.

    21 Q. Was it after that that searches were carried

    22 out?

    23 A. In this house that we were in during those

    24 few days, as I mentioned, there weren't any searches

    25 that were carried out.

  22. 1 Q. The reason I ask you is that the summary

    2 which has been provided for us contains this phrase:

    3 "They searched all houses for weapons and

    4 threatened that now the war would begin."

    5 It's right, isn't it, that a considerable

    6 interest was in finding weapons and searches were

    7 carried out for those weapons?

    8 A. Well, probably.

    9 Q. Is it also right that during the course of

    10 what you've described as looting, some Serb soldiers

    11 managed to be killed or were killed?

    12 A. I remember that over there where I was, some

    13 people got killed.

    14 Q. Did the attitude of those who had been

    15 conducting these searches, did that then change to one

    16 whereby, as you put it, "They got tough with us,"

    17 because of the killing of Serb soldiers?

    18 A. Yes. Yes.

    19 Q. In due course, on the 5th of May, you and

    20 others were taken to Laser. How many people were taken

    21 with you to Laser, the Laser Company?

    22 A. Well, then, in my very own estimate, there

    23 were about 200 people.

    24 Q. Is it right that that group included women,

    25 children, and the elderly?

  23. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. It is also right that the women, the

    3 children, and the elderly were subsequently separated

    4 from you and taken elsewhere?

    5 A. That's what I heard.

    6 Q. The place Celic -- can you help us about

    7 this -- is that about 30 to 40 kilometres from Brcko?

    8 A. No, not that much. There's about 20, I

    9 think.

    10 Q. Is it right that that's a location which has

    11 or had a Muslim majority at that time?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. It is also right that when the people were

    14 sent there, that town was already behind Muslim

    15 military lines?

    16 A. I can't really say. I don't know.

    17 Q. Is it a town which is in what is now referred

    18 to as the Federation area of Brcko?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. The people who were sent to Celic, that was

    21 not just Muslims but also Croats as well; is that

    22 right?

    23 A. I don't know, because most of these people

    24 were elderly persons, women, and children, and what

    25 that was, I don't know. I didn't know that before.

  24. 1 Q. You told the Office of the Prosecutor that

    2 the people taken to Celic was two bus loads, children,

    3 women, and people over 60.

    4 I'm sorry. I realise by rereading it that

    5 I've made a mistake.

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. That Muslims and Croats were taken to Luka.

    8 A. I did not understand what you said.

    9 Q. Yes. I became slightly confused during the

    10 asking of the question. I'll start again, Mr. N.

    11 The people who were taken to Luka would be

    12 about four to five bus loads; is that correct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Amongst those people there were no Serbs,

    15 according to you, but only Muslims and Croats?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Your stay at Laser, you've told us about an

    18 incident which took place at night concerning what you

    19 allege to be a visit by Goran Jelisic. At the time

    20 when that visit took place, can you say what time of

    21 night it was?

    22 A. I cannot tell exactly when this was, but I

    23 know that it was during the night.

    24 Q. The building in which you were being kept, is

    25 it right that that was the former canteen of the bus

  25. 1 company, for the bus company employees?

    2 A. Yes. We called it the -- yes, the canteen.

    3 The social centre for meals. That's probably where

    4 workers ate.

    5 Q. Would it be right to describe it as being --

    6 about two-thirds of the building as being the dining

    7 hall, and about a third of it being the kitchens,

    8 storerooms, and other administrative rooms?

    9 A. I couldn't say, because I just remember this

    10 restaurant for workers.

    11 Q. During the night when you say Goran Jelisic

    12 came to Laser, were there many lights on in the

    13 building or were they just small emergency lights

    14 giving off a dull, yellowish light?

    15 A. I do not remember whether there were any

    16 lights at all then. The weather is nice in May

    17 usually, and you could see things by the moonlight, as

    18 we say.

    19 Q. Can you please describe to us the man that

    20 you saw, who you say called himself Goran Jelisic,

    21 called "Adolf"?

    22 A. Goran Jelisic? Well, this is the way I'm

    23 going to describe him, the way he looked then. He was

    24 fair, as I like to put it. His skin was fair. His

    25 hair wasn't exactly black. (redacted)

  26. 1 (redacted). So he might have been 180

    2 centimetres tall or something like that. He was

    3 neither skinny nor fat, had a regular sort of figure.

    4 So that would be my description.

    5 Q. When you say his hair "wasn't exactly black,"

    6 what you told the Office of the Prosecutor was that he

    7 had black hair.

    8 A. But I said now that he had black hair as

    9 well.

    10 Q. Yes. It was interpreted as, "His hair wasn't

    11 exactly black."

    12 So you're confirming now that the hair was

    13 black?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. As far as that night is concerned, Mr. N,

    16 what I want to ask you is this: The person you have

    17 described to us as calling himself Goran Jelisic,

    18 called "Adolf", that wasn't, in fact, Goran Jelisic,

    19 was it?

    20 A. For me that was Goran Jelisic.

    21 Q. As far as one particular person was

    22 concerned, that person was sought out for the sole

    23 reason that he was an organiser in the SDA, and by

    24 "organiser", what do you mean exactly?

    25 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe I used the wrong

  27. 1 term, but it refers to people who were members -- I

    2 don't know -- had certain functions in the SDA party.

    3 I never engaged in politics, but I heard that

    4 those people such as Causevic and some of those

    5 surnames like that, that they did hold certain

    6 functions in the SDA party. What they actually were in

    7 the party, I wouldn't know.

    8 Q. What they were organising was this, wasn't

    9 it: They were organising the Muslim resistance to

    10 Serbian military activity?

    11 A. I don't really know. I wasn't there. I

    12 don't know really what they did.

    13 Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor,

    14 Mr. N, was this:

    15 "He called the name Causevic. I know the

    16 family was involved in organising the Muslim

    17 resistance."

    18 Does that assist you?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Do you remember the making of a statement to

    21 the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. N, in May 1995?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 MR. GREAVES: I wonder if I might ask my

    24 learned friend for the Prosecution if he could let

    25 Witness N see the original of his statement, please.

  28. 1 Q. Mr. N, would you look at that document,

    2 please? Have you seen that document before?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is that the statement which you made to the

    5 Office of the Prosecutor on the 20th of May, 1995?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. On the first page, is it signed by you?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Is each of the next pages, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and

    10 6, initialled by you at the bottom right-hand corner?

    11 A. No, I can't see that.

    12 Q. Look at page 6, for example, Mr. N.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you see, immediately below the figure "6",

    15 two initials, the first of which is the first letter of

    16 your surname, the second of which is the first letter

    17 of your first name?

    18 A. No, I can't see that.

    19 Q. Is that the version in English or in Bosnian,

    20 Mr. N?

    21 A. It's the Bosnian version.

    22 MR. GREAVES: I had rather hoped he was going

    23 to have the original statement in English.

    24 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Because the witness, of

    25 course, signed the original statement and not the

  29. 1 translation, so we can give the translation, if it is

    2 about the signature.

    3 MR. GREAVES: I had asked for the original

    4 statement, not the Bosnian statement. If I wanted the

    5 Bosnian, I would have asked for that.

    6 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Yes, but the witness cannot

    7 read English.

    8 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Thank you very much, Your

    9 Honour.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    11 yes, he did ask for the original.

    12 Yes, you may move on, Mr. Greaves.

    13 MR. GREAVES:

    14 Q. Mr. N, I just need to go over with you those

    15 questions again. Have you now got the English

    16 version?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Very quickly, can you confirm, by just

    19 looking at it, the signature on the first page, the

    20 initials on the next few pages until page 8?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Then on page 8, is there a single paragraph

    23 which you've signed, and it's dated the 20th of May,

    24 1995? Do you have that?

    25 A. Yes.

  30. 1 Q. So that we know what that says, that caption,

    2 that paragraph, says:

    3 "This statement has been read over to me in

    4 the Croatian language and is true, to the best of my

    5 knowledge and recollection. I've given this statement

    6 voluntarily, and I'm aware that it may be used in legal

    7 proceedings before the International Criminal

    8 Tribunal..."

    9 and so forth,

    10 "... and that I may be called to give

    11 evidence in public before the Tribunal."

    12 Do you recall having it read over to you in

    13 Croatian and then signing it?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. But you now say that you don't believe that

    16 you knew anything about the Causevic family. Despite

    17 what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in that

    18 statement, you're not sure anymore about them being

    19 involved in Muslim resistance?

    20 A. I said that they were active members of the

    21 SDA party. Now, whether they took part in organising

    22 the resistance or not, I couldn't say.

    23 Q. I want to move on now. Thank you very much.

    24 I don't need you to see your statement anymore for the

    25 moment, please, Mr. N.

  31. 1 Can you help us, please, about this: The

    2 people taken to Luka, were they in this category? They

    3 were male and between 16 and 60?

    4 A. Do you mean all the people who were in Luka

    5 or just those that were transferred from the Laser to

    6 Luka?

    7 Q. Just those transferred from Laser, Mr. N.

    8 A. Yes. From Laser, all those transferred were

    9 between the ages of 16 and 60.

    10 Q. And were all male?

    11 A. As far as I remember, they were all male.

    12 Q. Is it right that the day when you were

    13 transferred there, that was the 8th of May?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. When you got to Laser, can you recall what

    16 time of day it was?

    17 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, but I think

    18 it was the morning.

    19 Q. When you got there, were there already people

    20 there, both people in uniform and people who had

    21 already been detained?

    22 A. There were people in uniform, but I don't

    23 remember whether there were any detainees.

    24 Q. Were other detainees brought in during the

    25 day, that you saw being brought in?

  32. 1 A. I don't remember.

    2 Q. Is this also right, that during the course of

    3 that day, a number of people were released from the

    4 Luka facility?

    5 A. Are we talking about Laser now or what?

    6 Q. Luka.

    7 A. Oh, we're talking about Luka. Right. I

    8 thought you were speaking about Laser.

    9 Q. No. We've moved to Luka. When I asked you

    10 about people already being there, were you confused at

    11 that point, whether we were talking about Luka or

    12 Laser?

    13 A. I thought we were speaking about Laser when

    14 you asked that particular question.

    15 Q. Right. Let's just retrace our steps

    16 somewhat.

    17 You were taken to Luka. Is it the middle of

    18 the morning or during the morning that you arrived at

    19 Luka?

    20 A. I know it was daytime, but exactly what time,

    21 I can't say.

    22 Q. When you got to Luka, were there already

    23 people there who were detainees?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were they of the same type as your group; in

  33. 1 other words, men between 16 and 60?

    2 A. I don't remember.

    3 Q. During the course of the 8th of May, were

    4 other detainees brought in after your group?

    5 A. Well, at the beginning, people were brought

    6 in from somewhere.

    7 Q. During the course of that day, is it right

    8 that people were released from Luka?

    9 A. In the course of the 8th of May, that's what

    10 you're asking me, is it?

    11 Q. Yes, Mr. N.

    12 A. I think they were. It started right away.

    13 Q. Would it also be right to describe Luka that

    14 day as chaotic?

    15 A. Well, yes.

    16 Q. Apart from detainees, large numbers of other

    17 people moving in and through the camp, whether military

    18 or police or civil authorities; would that be right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And buses arriving and detainees getting off,

    21 and releases taking place by bus, particularly later in

    22 the day; would that be right?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Can you just help us about one detail

    25 concerning the layout of the site at Luka? The

  34. 1 warehouses in which detainees were kept, behind those

    2 warehouses there's a railway line, isn't there?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Is this also right, that on that railway

    5 line, a train had been brought up in order to protect

    6 the camp from sniper fire from across the River Sava?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. During the period of the first half of May of

    9 1992, the first ten or so days that you were there,

    10 were you aware of sniper fire being directed at the

    11 hangars from across the river?

    12 A. I personally did not notice that, no, because

    13 we were inside, in the building.

    14 Q. I want to ask you now about the two brothers

    15 who had come from Zvornik.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Your recollection was that Goran Jelisic

    18 said, in relation to those, "Oh, you're from Zvornik.

    19 You came here to make troubles, to start the war." Do

    20 you also recall hearing him saying something about them

    21 being Green Berets and that being the focus of the

    22 hostility towards them?

    23 A. Well, he always said a lot of things about

    24 people. It's difficult to link everything up and to

    25 distinguish what he said to whom. But he would also

  35. 1 swear and say, "Green Berets," and so on and so forth.

    2 So that was his behaviour on occasions of this kind.

    3 Q. Is this also right, that in relation to that

    4 incident, you only heard two shots?

    5 A. I think that's right.

    6 Q. You personally did not witness the killing of

    7 these two people?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. By that time, were you inside --

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We know all

    11 that, Mr. Greaves.

    12 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

    13 didn't hear that.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Count 16

    15 and 17.

    16 We're saying that Muslim brothers from

    17 Zvornik, that the accused pleaded guilty to those two

    18 counts. I remember your remark yesterday to the

    19 Prosecution. We are here talking about elements of

    20 genocide. It is quite true that we can talk about

    21 that, but the fact is that the accused pleaded guilty

    22 to this, and there is no need to insist on that.

    23 Of course, if you want to go back to these

    24 facts, you may do that, but then you have to cover some

    25 other aspects of that particular --

  36. 1 MR. GREAVES: The point is this: The

    2 Prosecution indicated yesterday that despite what was

    3 written in that agreement, they seek to prove that this

    4 defendant killed the second as well as the first

    5 brother, and I'm afraid as a result of that, I now have

    6 to ask questions which demonstrate that other witnesses

    7 who have already given evidence about it may be either

    8 mistaken or incorrect as to what they saw, and so I

    9 have to explore with this witness what he saw and

    10 heard. That's why, for example, I'm asking about how

    11 many shots he heard, and --

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Right. Very

    13 well. Thank you for making it clear.

    14 It is in paragraph 22 of the indictment, we

    15 have the murder of Huzo and Smail Zahirovic, the counts

    16 16, 17, 22, but I believe we could now move on to

    17 another subject before we make a break.

    18 MR. GREAVES:

    19 Q. Mr. N, I want to ask you this: You became

    20 aware of releases having taken place, in particular

    21 because local Serb people had come to the facility and

    22 indicated to the authorities there that the people to

    23 be released were not guilty of anything?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And when you used the phrase "not guilty of

  37. 1 anything," can you explain that phrase, please?

    2 A. Well, it can't be explained because anybody

    3 who was in Luka was not guilty of anything. They were

    4 all civilians who had nothing to do with anything.

    5 Q. Yes. I understand that from your point of

    6 view, but from the other side's point of view, what was

    7 it that they considered people to be guilty of?

    8 A. Well, for example, if they were a member of

    9 the SDA party. That was enough to consider him

    10 guilty. So that was one of the reasons for somebody to

    11 be deemed guilty.

    12 Q. Or if they had been engaged in military

    13 activity such as sniping or arranging weapons to be

    14 handed out, anything like that? Those were the reasons

    15 for people to be detained, ill-treated and so on; is

    16 that right?

    17 A. Possibly. I don't know.

    18 Q. Other people were released who were Muslims,

    19 who were taken away to do forced labour; is that

    20 right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. It's also right, isn't it, that throughout

    23 your stay, and in particular in May 1992, the number of

    24 detainees varied from day-to-day?

    25 A. Yes.

  38. 1 Q. The people were always being brought in from

    2 SUP, and people were being also released at the same

    3 time?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Some of those who were released were

    6 rearrested and brought back?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And the numbers of detainees were, in fact,

    9 as many as a thousand to 1.500 at any one time?

    10 A. Well, there were less people than a thousand

    11 or a thousand and a half at some point.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Maybe we could

    13 make a break now, Mr. Greaves. What do you think?

    14 MR. GREAVES: I didn't know if Your Honour

    15 wanted to go on until 11.30 or now, but I'll happily

    16 break now, as Your Honour wishes.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Why 11.30?

    18 Excuse me. Do you think you'll finish with the witness

    19 by 11.30?

    20 MR. GREAVES: No. It's just I tend to

    21 operate in half hour sections, but I'm quite happy to

    22 break now.

    23 [Trial Chamber confers]

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We shall

    25 make a break until quarter to 12.00.

  39. 1 --- Recess taken at 11.24 a.m.

    2 --- On resuming at 11.50 a.m.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The hearing is

    4 resumed. Will you please have the accused brought in.

    5 [The accused entered court]

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves?

    7 MR. GREAVES:

    8 Q. Mr. N, before we -- sorry. It would help if

    9 I put the microphone on.

    10 Mr. N, before the break we were talking about

    11 quantities of detainees. I'm now going to move on to

    12 another issue concerning the reasons why people were

    13 killed.

    14 One of the reasons you've given is because of

    15 persons being prominent in the SDA, but as to others,

    16 you couldn't work out why it was that people were

    17 killed; is that right? You couldn't understand the

    18 reason for it?

    19 A. Well, say there were cases when people who

    20 were killed never, as far as I know, even belonged to

    21 the SDA party. There were such cases. I don't know if

    22 it can --

    23 Q. Of course, but in relation to those kinds of

    24 killings, is it possible that there was a motive but

    25 that you, as a detainee, were not made matter to the

  40. 1 motive? Is that possible?

    2 A. I don't even know when I was there if there

    3 was a motive behind it.

    4 Q. Yes. Thank you. I want to ask you now,

    5 please, about an incident concerning someone called

    6 Adnan Kucalovic. Is this right: that he was the last

    7 person, as far as you know, to have been killed in

    8 Luka?

    9 A. As far as I know, yes, he was.

    10 Q. Would that have been around the 18th or 19th

    11 of May, 1992?

    12 A. As far as I can remember, yes. It was about

    13 that date.

    14 Q. Whilst it's accepted that Goran Jelisic was

    15 involved in that matter, is this right: that the

    16 motive given for the killing of that man was because

    17 that man's brother was in the Muslim forces?

    18 A. That was what Goran told him as he was taking

    19 him away, but what was the reason, that is something

    20 that I don't know.

    21 Q. Were Goran's words, Goran Jelisic's words

    22 something along the following line: "You didn't say

    23 your brother was in the Green Berets and you are still

    24 alive"?

    25 A. Yes.

  41. 1 Q. I want to ask you now very briefly about the

    2 killing of Stipo Glavosevic. Again, it's accepted that

    3 Goran Jelisic was involved in his killing, but is this

    4 right: that you told the Office of the Prosecutor, in

    5 your statement, that you saw a guard take a pistol and

    6 shoot him when no one else agreed to do so?

    7 A. Yes. Yes. That is what I said in my

    8 statement, because from what I could see, from the

    9 place where I was, one of the guard's got angry and

    10 picked up that pistol. It happened right near the

    11 entrance into the hangar.

    12 Q. Is it right also that you were told by

    13 somebody that the man Stipo had been involved and was

    14 important in the HDZ party?

    15 A. Yes. Somebody told me that, because I did

    16 not know him before.

    17 Q. For the sake of clarity, is the HDZ a party

    18 that is principally a party for Croatian people?

    19 A. You know, when it comes to politics, I really

    20 don't know.

    21 Q. I want to ask you now about another incident

    22 where somebody was killed. There was, whilst you were

    23 in Luka in May 1992, a Serb who was killed at Luka. Do

    24 you recall that?

    25 A. Yes, I do recall that, because I knew that

  42. 1 Serb by sight.

    2 Q. Did you also know his name?

    3 A. I did know it but I've forgotten it. He was

    4 from a neighbouring village. I did know his name but

    5 now it just slips my memory.

    6 Q. If I suggested to you that his name was

    7 Dzoko, would that refresh your memory?

    8 A. Yes. Yes. Quite right. Yes.

    9 Q. Thank you, Mr. N. Was the motive -- sorry,

    10 let me just retrace slightly.

    11 The people who killed him, according to you,

    12 was somebody who was either a Seselj or an Arkan

    13 soldier?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. That was something that you witnessed in the

    16 warehouse yourself personally?

    17 A. It happened in the warehouse, before our

    18 eyes.

    19 Q. So that we're clear about it, when we refer

    20 to a Seselj or an Arkan soldier, those are people who

    21 belong to a particular militia; is that right?

    22 A. Well, they also wore uniforms. Some of them

    23 introduced themselves, and they would say they are

    24 Seselj's troops or Arkan's. There were all those

    25 troops around.

  43. 1 Q. I was going to ask you, you can identify them

    2 as belonging to these different groups by the kind of

    3 uniform that they would wear and the kind of dress that

    4 they would have; is that right?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. The motive for the killing was this, wasn't

    7 it: that the Serb person had tried to help a Muslim

    8 person?

    9 A. That's right.

    10 Q. The Serb had tried to help the Muslim leave

    11 the former Yugoslavia and go to elsewhere in Europe?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. The Muslim was also killed that day; is that

    14 right?

    15 A. Yes, more or less; not quite the same day,

    16 but it was that night, I think, something like that.

    17 Q. I don't want you to tell us the name, but you

    18 knew the name of the Muslim; is that right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. The Muslim who was shot later, he had been

    21 involved as an active member of the SDA; is that

    22 right?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] He was not

    25 asked those questions in the examination in chief, so

  44. 1 will you please --

    2 MR. GREAVES: These issues go to the motives,

    3 why people were being killed in Luka, which, as I

    4 understand it, is a matter which directly involves the

    5 allegation and mens rea of genocide, and therefore they

    6 are relevant and probative of those issues.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Prosecution

    8 will have the right to re-examine.

    9 Yes, go on.

    10 MR. GREAVES:

    11 Q. I want to ask you also, Mr. N, about somebody

    12 who was killed, I think, by Ranko Cesic, somebody

    13 called Fadil Mujic, who was a hunter who owned a

    14 rifle. Do you recall that?

    15 A. I do.

    16 Q. When Cesic came back, he told the assembled

    17 detainees that the reason that he had been killed was

    18 because he had refused to disclose that he had a gun?

    19 A. Let me tell you, I knew that Fadil Mujic and

    20 all the hunters had the rifles and had the permits for

    21 that, and I think that was quite all right.

    22 Q. You were -- at some time in May, 1992, you

    23 were interrogated at Luka; is that right?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. That was by a SUP inspector called Dragisa

  45. 1 Tesic; is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. They asked you, during the course of that

    4 interrogation, what you described as the usual

    5 questions about your occupation before the war, whether

    6 you were a member of the SDA, if you knew SDA members,

    7 if your family was fighting either for the Muslims or

    8 the Croats; is that right?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. When you use the phrase "the usual

    11 questions", is that because those were the questions

    12 that everybody who was interrogated had put to them?

    13 A. Quite a number of those I knew and who went

    14 for interrogation, yes, were asked those questions.

    15 Q. You didn't give them any information and

    16 wouldn't give them any information, and as a result of

    17 that, you were told that was why you were going to

    18 continue to be detained; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. I want to ask you now about some things that

    21 you claim to have heard Goran Jelisic say concerning,

    22 for example, the fate of Muslims and how many people he

    23 had killed.

    24 First of all, my question to you is this: He

    25 did not say any of those things at all, Mr. N, did he?

  46. 1 A. That's what you think, but, yes, he did say 2 those things which I mentioned. 3 Q. In particular, you said that according to

    4 him, the fate of the Muslims would work best in kiosks

    5 or something along that line. In your statement to the

    6 Office of the Prosecutor, you made no mention of that

    7 part of the conversation. Can you tell us why that is?

    8 A. Well, if I said all that happened, it would

    9 take 24 hours to cover all the details about everything

    10 that happened there.

    11 Q. I'm going to turn now to the Prosecution

    12 lists, if I may, please, Mr. N.

    13 MR. GREAVES: Could we go into closed

    14 session, please.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in private session.

    16 [Private session]

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  47. 1












    13 page 1597 redacted private session













  48. 1












    13 page 1598 redacted private session













  49. 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 [Open session]

    12 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    13 much, Mr. Greaves. You were very concise, and you

    14 respected the time that you needed.

    15 Would you have any questions in

    16 re-examination?

    17 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Just a few questions, Your

    18 Honours.

    19 Re-examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    20 Q. Witness N, you were questioned by the Defence

    21 about the identity of Goran Jelisic, so I have just a

    22 few questions in this regard.

    23 The person whom you saw at the Laser Company

    24 and who introduced himself as Goran Jelisic, called

    25 "Adolf", was the same person whom you saw at Luka?

  50. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Was that the same person who took two

    3 Hazim (phoen) brothers, from Zvornik, from the hangar

    4 and who were then killed?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Was this the same person who took Adnan

    7 Kucalovic from the hangar and who was then killed?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. When you came here, did you think you would

    10 be able to identify Goran Jelisic if you saw him

    11 again?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Can you identify him here?

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, back in

    15 public session.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President, we are in

    17 public session.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes,

    19 Mr. Greaves.

    20 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I object to this

    21 question at this stage. At the beginning of the

    22 session, when the witness came in, Your Honour

    23 identified where Goran Jelisic was sitting. It's,

    24 therefore, not terribly difficult for a witness who's

    25 been told who Goran Jelisic --

  51. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, of

    2 course.

    3 MR. GREAVES: -- to pick him out. It's,

    4 therefore, in my submission, unfair for this procedure

    5 to be carried out.

    6 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The question was whether

    7 the witness was --

    8 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] First I will

    9 answer this question for Mr. Greaves. The President

    10 has the right to make the contents clear. I say that,

    11 and I really don't like these veiled threats regarding

    12 the procedure. I believe that the President is fully

    13 entitled to say, "Well, here we have the Prosecution

    14 here, here we have the Defence, and there is the

    15 accused," because these are public hearings.

    16 Now, as for the right to re-examination, the

    17 Prosecution has the right to do it as they deem it

    18 necessary.

    19 Mr. Greaves, sometimes you seem to confuse

    20 various stages of the proceedings. You sometimes

    21 confuse the right to re-examine with some other

    22 questions, and that is whether at some given moment you

    23 will be drawing some conclusions. But you can do it

    24 either in writing or orally, saying in your conclusions

    25 that the identification was not performed under

  52. 1 equitable conditions, and that is because the witness,

    2 when he came in, saw Mr. Jelisic. But when the witness

    3 accepted to come to The Hague to the Tribunal, he knew

    4 that he would find Mr. Goran Jelisic in the place of

    5 the accused, because Goran Jelisic is the one who is

    6 accused.

    7 Yes, Mr. Tochilovsky. You may continue.

    8 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: The witness answered the

    9 question, that he was able to recognise Goran Jelisic

    10 even before coming to this Tribunal, and he recognised

    11 him in this room. So I have no further questions, Your

    12 Honour.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Judge

    14 Riad, do you have any questions?

    15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you,

    16 Mr. President, I do.

    17 Questioned by the Court:

    18 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Good afternoon,

    19 witness. We do not use any names here. I only have --

    20 I only should like to verify something. You mentioned

    21 that Jelisic announced one day that he had killed 7

    22 people and that he needed 8 more that day so as to have

    23 the count of 15 that day.

    24 Now, was it a kind of arithmetical

    25 calculation? That is, he was killing 15 persons per

  53. 1 day because there were 100 or 150, and he had to

    2 liquidate them in 10 days, say, because another group

    3 was arriving, another lot was arriving, or was it just

    4 for his personal amusement, for his personal glory?

    5 That is, was there a method of liquidation that so many

    6 people had to be killed every day?

    7 Could you really sense what was the reason

    8 for that statement?

    9 A. Well, I couldn't actually sense that, how he

    10 came -- arrived at the number of 15 to be killed. I

    11 couldn't really say. I wasn't able to conclude on the

    12 basis of what reasoning. He just simply come up before

    13 us and said that. Now, why -- the whys and the

    14 wherefores, I couldn't tell you.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] It was a kind of

    16 plan -- it was not based on a plan of work or something

    17 like that?

    18 A. I don't know.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] He also

    20 announced to you that Muslims who could stay could only

    21 work in kiosks, in news-stands. Did you understand that

    22 to mean that there were no other places or jobs for

    23 Muslims? What was the particular reason for this

    24 particular statement?

    25 A. Well, probably when you say "kiosk" or these

  54. 1 kinds of news-stands, it's usually the very ordinary --

    2 I don't know how to express myself -- ordinary people

    3 working there. Nothing much, you know.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Did he tell you

    5 what was there then to do? If you didn't want to work

    6 in a kiosk or something like that, was there a proposal

    7 what you could do, or leave or something?

    8 A. That's probably what he had in mind. If we

    9 couldn't work in the kiosks, it meant we had nothing to

    10 do there.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] I see. But at

    12 the same time, he was envisaging that there would be

    13 some Muslims that would be staying, not all the Muslims

    14 would be exterminated. That was a kind of a promise,

    15 wasn't it, that not everybody would be executed? It

    16 was a kind of reassurance?

    17 A. Well, how far it was reassuring, I really

    18 don't know. It's difficult to say. It's difficult to

    19 say what he actually meant by it.

    20 We assumed that for us, there was no place

    21 there. We wouldn't be a sort of people, a nation, even

    22 if we did stay there, that this was all we had to -- in

    23 store for us.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    25 much.

  55. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    2 Judge Riad. Judge Rodrigues?

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    4 Mr. President.

    5 Good afternoon, Witness N. I have several

    6 questions. I need some explanations regarding the 8th

    7 of May, 1992.

    8 You said that having taken all the --

    9 after -- that the massive killing of people began after

    10 all the documents were seized. What do you mean by

    11 "massive murder"?

    12 A. What I personally mean? Well, for example,

    13 there were questions where people were called out on

    14 the basis of the document. There were cases where they

    15 were taken out just by their looks, whether he liked

    16 the looks of them, whether they were younger or more

    17 strongly built, something like that. So that's what I

    18 sort of meant.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But on the

    20 other hand, you also said that Jelisic had identity

    21 documents in his hands when he spoke to the detainees.

    22 Would you know how these identity papers were

    23 selected?

    24 A. Well, I think that they first took people --

    25 whether they decided who to take on the basis of

  56. 1 surnames, I don't know. I think so. Those who were

    2 active as SDA party members. But probably there were

    3 people there, although they had the same surname, had

    4 nothing to do with that, and they met the fate they met

    5 solely due to their surname. That's what I was able to

    6 assess.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you

    8 say that people were selected by their surname, is it

    9 the same thing then?

    10 A. Yes. Yes. That's it.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] What kind

    12 of surname? What would a surname indicate?

    13 A. Well, in my opinion -- but as I said, I

    14 didn't engage in politics, I looked more at the

    15 economic side of life -- they selected the surnames of

    16 people whom they knew. For example -- they probably

    17 knew those permanent members of the SDA. I only knew

    18 several families such as Ramic, Causevic, but probably

    19 they had better information than I did. I didn't have

    20 that information. That's what they were guided by

    21 perhaps.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And these

    23 surnames were also indicative of the ethnicity -- of

    24 their ethnicity perhaps or not?

    25 A. No, I didn't understand you to ask that.

  57. 1 Could you clarify your question a little, please?

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I

    3 shall be happy to do so. Perhaps -- I'm sorry if you

    4 didn't understand me.

    5 My question was whether the surname, the

    6 family name, could indicate their ethnic affiliation,

    7 their ethnic roots.

    8 A. Well, on the basis of a surname that would be

    9 difficult, but on the basis of the name, you could do

    10 that, yes, because surnames, where we come from, you

    11 know that most -- all our surnames end in more or less

    12 the same way. So it is difficult to judge by the

    13 surname, but you know by the name. If you have an ID

    14 card, then you have the name and the surname on the ID

    15 card.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    17 You also said that there were dead when you arrived at

    18 Luka, that there were men in uniform there. Could you

    19 tell us how many were there in the Luka camp?

    20 A. Well, it would be difficult to say how many

    21 people there were. I couldn't really tell you.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But could

    23 you tell us if those uniformed men were people from

    24 Brcko, that is, whether they were local people or

    25 whether they had come from elsewhere?

  58. 1 A. Well, as far as I was able to notice at the

    2 beginning, these were people whom I did not see around

    3 Brcko, and they probably came in from other parts. But

    4 as the days went by, I noticed there were people I

    5 knew, people who worked with me.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So there

    7 were Serbs, local Serbs, who came to the camp in order

    8 to guarantee, to vouch for individual persons and have

    9 them put at liberty. So those local Serbs who were in

    10 the camp, could they also guarantee the freedom of some

    11 Muslims?

    12 A. Well, yes.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another

    14 matter. You used a word that when you arrived, chaos

    15 reigned. Could you define "chaos", in your words?

    16 What were the conditions there?

    17 A. Chaos, panic. Well, for me that sort of

    18 means that you don't know who's doing what, who's

    19 giving the orders, who's asking the questions. I

    20 remember that was the state on the first day. It was a

    21 chaotic situation, as we say.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. You

    23 also said that you were interrogated. Would you

    24 know -- do you have any idea of motives or, rather, in

    25 other words, what was the goal, what was the objective

  59. 1 of your interrogation? What was the kind of

    2 information that they tried to get from you? Could you

    3 tell us something about that, and why?

    4 A. Well, probably it served to kill that man, to

    5 find him, because there was no other foundation for him

    6 to ask me those questions. Everybody belonged to a

    7 party of some kind. There were some exceptions, people

    8 who were nowhere, but in the normal world everybody

    9 would have to opt for one or another party.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    11 Right. But you said that these questions also included

    12 questions whether somebody belonged to a political

    13 party, notably SDA; if somebody was an active believer,

    14 went to the mosque; so on and so forth. So the purpose

    15 of all this information was what?

    16 I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't quite understand

    17 you.

    18 A. Perhaps you didn't understand me. I just

    19 said that probably they served the purpose of helping

    20 them to find that man. And the fate of those people

    21 would be common knowledge because, as I said, it was

    22 sufficient reason for you to meet your fate, to lose

    23 your head, if you were a member of the SDA party. That

    24 was sufficient reason.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Membership

  60. 1 in the HDZ, could that also be the reason for

    2 liquidating someone?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Which was more dangerous, membership in the

    5 SDA or in the HDZ? Which carried more risk?

    6 A. Well, let me put it this way -- let me give

    7 you my opinion, so that is the opinion of an ordinary

    8 man, citizen.

    9 At the beginning, I think it was -- in the

    10 first days, I think it was more dangerous to be a

    11 member of the HDZ, perhaps. Later on, as the war --

    12 the flames of war fanned, it was the reverse. But it

    13 is my personal view that at the beginning it was more

    14 dangerous, perhaps, to be a member of the HDZ.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] All right.

    16 Well, thank you. Thank you very much, Witness N.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. I

    18 should now like to confer with my colleagues.

    19 [Trial Chamber confers]

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Right, yes. We

    21 deliberated. The Judges agree regarding the element of

    22 identification which was raised by the Defence, and I

    23 should like to make things quite clear.

    24 When you were asked whether you could

    25 recognise Goran Jelisic, I understood that the problem

  61. 1 was not whether you knew that Goran Jelisic was here or

    2 not, because you knew that as of the moment that you

    3 arrived in The Hague, and, after all, it is a public

    4 matter. You know that he is guarded by policemen, so

    5 there are no doubts about that.

    6 But the question which I should like to ask

    7 you, on behalf of my colleagues, Witness N, whether

    8 Goran Jelisic, who is sitting here, who is the accused

    9 here, do you, apart from that, do you have some other

    10 elements by which you can identify him when looking at

    11 him-- that is the question -- apart from knowing that

    12 he is here?

    13 Of course, you may look at him again, if you

    14 wish, but are there some other elements of

    15 identification? Are there some other things by which

    16 you can identify him? Will you please tell us what you

    17 see, what you feel? Don't tell us, "Goran Jelisic,

    18 that is him there," and that is quite clear, and that

    19 is what I was telling Mr. Greaves. Of course, it is

    20 quite obvious Goran Jelisic is here. But how would you

    21 recognise him?

    22 The question asked you by the Prosecution,

    23 "Could you recognise Goran Jelisic?" So could you

    24 please tell the Tribunal some elements of

    25 identification that you, Witness N, you know, that you

  62. 1 feel, or that you can note?

    2 Do you understand my question? Do you know

    3 what I'm driving at?

    4 A. Yes. I'll never forget Goran Jelisic's face

    5 ever in my life. He has changed a little, but we all

    6 change a little with the passing of years. But I can

    7 never forget that face.

    8 I saw him recently in Bosnia on television,

    9 and even without being told who he was, I knew him

    10 immediately.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. But

    12 will you please try harder? Could you go further?

    13 I know this is not easy for you, but is there

    14 something which will really reassure the Defence? I

    15 mean what is it that you can recognise somebody by? It

    16 is for the Defence that I am also asking this

    17 question.

    18 Beyond knowing that he is here, beyond that

    19 knowledge that he is here, could you think of some

    20 marks of recognition? Could you tell us something that

    21 would make your recognition of him more precise?

    22 A. Well, I don't know what to tell you, how to

    23 say it. He's a man whom I saw and whom I know and whom

    24 I experienced and lived through everything, and nobody

    25 could ever wipe his face out of my memory. It's him.

  63. 1 I know it's him.

    2 But how to give you some special details. I

    3 see him here in front of me. He's here. I know it's

    4 him, and that's the simple truth of it. I don't know

    5 what you want me to say.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Well, there is

    7 nothing else that needs to be said, and I believe we

    8 can conclude this debate.

    9 It was very brave of you to come here, to

    10 confront your past, which was so cruel, so difficult,

    11 and to do that in the presence of the accused, whom you

    12 know, and know that he would be there.

    13 Now we wish you to get back to your country

    14 well, to find your personal calm, and to find a way to

    15 live a good and peaceful life after all the hell that

    16 you went through. Thank you very much for coming

    17 here. Farewell.

    18 Somebody will now escort you from the

    19 courtroom.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

    21 [The witness withdrew]

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. We

    23 shall have the next witness brought in now.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice has a

    25 document for me. Could I have Your Honour's leave to

  64. 1 go across the room and fetch it, please, because it's

    2 required for this witness.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Of course.

    4 [The witness entered court]

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can you hear

    6 me? Sir, this is the President who is speaking to

    7 you. In front of you, right in front of you, I'm

    8 speaking to you. Can you hear me, Witness?

    9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] So now we shall

    11 show you your name on a piece of paper, and we shall

    12 ask you to confirm it without pronouncing it, however.

    13 Will you just indicate, with your head, whether this is

    14 your name or not?

    15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    17 Now you will make the solemn declaration.

    18 You will repeat a formula. It will be shown to you by

    19 the usher, and you will repeat it.

    20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    22 and nothing but the truth.


    24 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very

  65. 1 much. You may be seated.

    2 Now, we shall call you Witness O in

    3 compliance with protective measures which were taken so

    4 that you could give your testimony feeling completely

    5 secure.

    6 First, the counsel for the Prosecution will

    7 ask you questions first, and you will answer those

    8 questions. After that, you will hear the questions of

    9 the Defence. After that, there may be questions from

    10 the Judges, but there will be plenty of time because we

    11 shall adjourn at 13.00.

    12 Please feel at ease, and you will see that

    13 everything will go smoothly.

    14 Mr. Nice, the floor is yours.

    15 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    16 Q. Witness O, were you, on the 5th of May of

    17 1992, staying with your sister, I think, in Brcko, when

    18 you were arrested, together with the rest of the

    19 family, by men in uniform?

    20 A. Yes. On the 5th of May, I was arrested. I

    21 was staying with my sister, but I was not with my

    22 family but with my sister's family, and we were

    23 arrested by two policemen, and they took us to the

    24 wooden mosque. Before that, they searched us.

    25 And they separated us in the mosque. They

  66. 1 separated my sister and us men. Us men stayed there.

    2 My sister went home.

    3 Q. You can deal with some of these questions

    4 very briefly, if you're happy to do so, and just say

    5 "Yes" or "No" if I get things right or wrong.

    6 At the mosque, were there some two to

    7 three hundred men and boys?

    8 A. Yes, yes.

    9 Q. From the mosque, were you moved to the JNA

    10 barracks, where you were kept in the barracks' movie

    11 theatre?

    12 A. The next day, the next day.

    13 Q. Then on the day after that, the 7th or

    14 possibly the 8th of May, were you transferred again,

    15 this time to the Luka facility, and when you got there,

    16 was there glass shattered all over the floor?

    17 A. Yes. In the afternoon, the glass was

    18 shattered all over.

    19 Q. At some stage shortly after your arrival

    20 there, on the same day or the day after, did a man come

    21 into the hangar and introduce himself to you by a

    22 particular name?

    23 A. No, I didn't hear him introduce himself. I

    24 learned about him later on.

    25 Q. What did he say when you first saw him, and

  67. 1 what did he do when you first saw him?

    2 A. The first time I saw him, I didn't know it

    3 was him. I learned this later on. I learned that he

    4 was that particular individual later on.

    5 Q. On this first occasion, what did he say and

    6 what did he do?

    7 A. On that first occasion, he came in with a

    8 guard, and he asked, "Where is the Serb that helps the

    9 Muslims?" The guard pointed me out and the man who was

    10 brought into the hangar previously, took his rifle off

    11 his shoulder and fired a round of bullets and affixed

    12 him to the wall, and I saw that the man fell over on

    13 his side. And he left the guard, took two prisoners to

    14 pull the man out, and they did so.

    15 Q. On a later date, did you see something

    16 happening to four particular men who were taken from

    17 the hangar?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. What date, if you're able to, do you put on

    20 this event? If you can only estimate a date, give us

    21 an estimate.

    22 A. I can't tell you the date exactly, but it was

    23 the 9th or 10th that two soldiers entered the hangar,

    24 took four men away. I was a little further off from

    25 the door to the hangar which was wide open. They

  68. 1 pointed their guns at the men, took them outside. And

    2 in front of the door, they started hitting them, these

    3 guards, and one by one they took them to the metal

    4 grate.

    5 Goran was outside, in front of the door, and

    6 he would cock his rifle at the base of their neck, and

    7 they said, "Well, careful that he doesn't get away."

    8 He would point his barrel at the back of the man's

    9 head, something along those lines.

    10 Q. You've now used the word "Goran". Is this

    11 the same man as the man you had seen dealing with the

    12 Serb on the previous occasion or is it a different man?

    13 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes.

    14 Q. What are you saying, that it's the same man

    15 or a different man?

    16 A. The same man. I never saw him up close, but

    17 I recognised him by his voice, and I would recognise

    18 his voice on many occasions later on and his

    19 movements. I remember him, when he killed that first

    20 man, I remember his voice. But I was never very close

    21 up to him. I would always see him standing some 20

    22 metres away from me.

    23 Q. When he shot this man in the head, was the

    24 man upright or in some other position?

    25 A. As I said, the two guards who took them off

  69. 1 would first beat those young men and then would hold

    2 them down to the ground, and then he would point the

    3 barrel at the back of the man's head and kill him.

    4 Q. Doing the best you can to remember what it

    5 was he said about restraining the movement of the man,

    6 tell us the words he used.

    7 A. Well, as I said, "Hold him firmer. Don't let

    8 him escape. Press him firmer to the ground. Don't let

    9 him move."

    10 Q. You saw that in respect of one or more than

    11 one of the four men that were taken out?

    12 A. All four of them.

    13 Q. What happened, if you can help us, with the

    14 bodies of those four men or any of them?

    15 A. With the bodies of the men? The guards would

    16 take two or three people from the hangar, and then they

    17 would take the bodies to beyond the hangar.

    18 Q. Did the men who carried the bodies, the men

    19 who were called out to carry the bodies, come back into

    20 the hangar or not?

    21 A. These did, yes. When I saw it, these did

    22 return, yes.

    23 Q. Was it always the case, when detainees,

    24 prisoners, were called out to move bodies, that they

    25 came back, or were there occasions when they didn't all

  70. 1 come back?

    2 A. Very often, they didn't come back. Three

    3 would go off and two would return, or two would go off

    4 and one would return.

    5 They usually asked for three volunteers who

    6 wanted to volunteer, so at first there were

    7 volunteers. Later on, people were made to go by the

    8 soldiers coming into the hangar.

    9 Q. Continuing with what happened with the four

    10 men, after they had been killed, did you hear any

    11 further noises after that?

    12 A. After that the door to the hangar would be

    13 shut. I didn't see who shut the door. We could hear

    14 four or five more shots, and screams, and moaning, and

    15 a thumping sound, thuds, and then there would be

    16 silence after that.

    17 Q. Did you see the man who shot those four men,

    18 on the following day?

    19 A. The next day, the individual who did the

    20 shooting was together with six or seven other soldiers,

    21 standing about, and he said that he killed 30 Muslims

    22 every day, and that he had finished his business for

    23 today but would carry on tomorrow.

    24 Q. Where was he when he said that and where were

    25 you?

  71. 1 A. In front of the hangar. That's where he

    2 was. I was in the hangar, about 20 metres away, but I

    3 could hear him quite well.

    4 Q. To whom was he addressing those remarks, to

    5 the soldiers or to the prisoners or to both?

    6 A. The soldiers. He was talking to the

    7 soldiers.

    8 Q. At the time he said this, how clear or

    9 interrupted a view did you have of him?

    10 A. Well, there were soldiers standing round

    11 him. I didn't see him very well. I didn't see him

    12 directly, because he was shielded by the soldiers who

    13 were with him.

    14 Q. You've now told then about seeing this man on

    15 some three days. How many days altogether were you

    16 detained at Luka, at least on this first occasion, if

    17 you were ever called back there, but on this time, how

    18 many?

    19 A. From the beginning, I was there two and a

    20 half months. Two months and ten days. So I saw him

    21 about 20 times. Then he left Luka and another one

    22 came. So I think after the 15th of May he left, and he

    23 just come and look around. He would just come and see

    24 us and then leave again.

    25 Q. On the other times that you saw him, that is,

  72. 1 other than the time when he shot the Serb and the time

    2 when he killed the four men and the time when he spoke

    3 of killing 30 Muslims a day, on the other occasions

    4 what did you see him doing, if anything?

    5 A. I didn't hear him say anything. He would

    6 just walk around. He would come into the hangar at

    7 times. He would pass by, wouldn't say anything, go out

    8 again.

    9 Q. When you saw him, what arms, if any, was he

    10 carrying?

    11 A. He carried a rifle at the beginning and then

    12 another sort of rifle. I don't know much about

    13 weapons, but those who were with me said that it was

    14 something called a Scorpion. So he would come with

    15 this Scorpion or sometimes he would just have this

    16 rifle.

    17 Sometimes he would be wearing a uniform, a

    18 camouflage uniform, sometimes a police uniform, militia

    19 uniform.

    20 Q. Answer this question, please, yes or no:

    21 When you came to the Tribunal, did you think you would

    22 be able to recognise this man had you saw him again or

    23 not?

    24 A. No, I couldn't recognise him.

    25 Q. Thank you. On one occasion did you see some

  73. 1 bodies?

    2 A. Yes. On one occasion a guard came up, took

    3 me out, and there were some offices opposite. He gave

    4 me a wastepaper basket with just two or three pieces of

    5 paper inside, and he said that I should follow him to

    6 throw that away. I followed a path behind the office.

    7 He was on my left-hand side, walked along with me, and

    8 some 10 to 15 metres everything was clear.

    9 Later on, I noticed that the path was dirty

    10 and that there was blood. The nearer I got to the

    11 rubbish dump, there were bodies lying about. I even

    12 recognised one of my colleagues who used to work with

    13 me. I didn't dare inspect him too carefully. The

    14 guard told me not to lose time, because he said, "You

    15 might end up here yourself." So I did what I had to do

    16 and went back with the guard to the hangar.

    17 MR. NICE: May the witness see Exhibit 9,

    18 please, which can perhaps conveniently be placed on the

    19 ELMO.

    20 Q. This is an aerial view of the Luka camp. If

    21 you'd like to take the pointer that you'll be handed

    22 and turn to the photograph on the overhead projector on

    23 your left and just point on that where you say the

    24 bodies were if this picture shows it.

    25 A. [Indicates]

  74. 1 Q. Thank you very much. You're indicating to

    2 the top right-hand corner of the photograph, beyond the

    3 sheds that were opposite the hangar?

    4 A. Yes. Yes, beyond the sheds. Further on

    5 towards the entrance into Luka. That's where we were

    6 [indicates]. That's the entrance. So over here

    7 [indicates].

    8 Q. Before the time when the man you've described

    9 as having seen on some 20 occasions left to be

    10 substituted by someone else, before that time, at night

    11 were people taken out from the hangar? Just yes or

    12 no.

    13 A. At night, yes. Yes.

    14 Q. On a regular basis or infrequently or what?

    15 A. Not regularly. There was no order to it.

    16 Q. There's the one particular young man -- this

    17 is not in the summary but it's the only matter outside

    18 the summary. For my learned friend's assistance, it's

    19 on page 5 of the original statement.

    20 There was one young man by the name of

    21 Kucalovic, who you, in particular, can remember.

    22 A. Yes, I can remember him, a young man about 20

    23 years old. They took him out and he never returned.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Perhaps we

    25 could adjourn now, Mr. Nice. I do not think you have

  75. 1 finished.

    2 MR. NICE: Very near. Oh, I've got to deal

    3 with the list. Quite right. I have a few more

    4 questions, yes.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. It is

    6 what we thought. If you are going to cover the list,

    7 then it will take some time.

    8 So, Witness O, we shall now adjourn, take a

    9 break, and we shall be back here at 14.30. The hearing

    10 is adjourned.

    11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.04 p.m.















  76. 1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The hearing is

    3 reconvened. Will you have the accused brought in,

    4 please.

    5 [The accused entered court]

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    7 seated. Witness O, you also may sit down.

    8 I shall immediately give the floor to

    9 Mr. Nice.

    10 MR. NICE:

    11 Q. Witness O, one question about the pile of

    12 bodies that you saw, which I may not have asked you,

    13 and I haven't checked. How were they dressed; in

    14 civilian clothes or in military clothes?

    15 A. In civilian clothes.

    16 Q. You told us about how it was that the man

    17 Goran was replaced in the middle of May by someone

    18 else. Did the killing stop at that time?

    19 A. Yes, in Luka.

    20 Q. Did you stay in Luka camp for another couple

    21 of months?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Then were you transferred to Batkovic camp

    24 and ultimately exchanged in October of 1992?

    25 A. Yes, on the 5th of October, 1992.

  77. 1 MR. NICE: May we go into private session, 2 and may the witness have the two lists in respect of 3 which he knows of a few names only. 4 [Private session] 5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

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    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

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    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 [Open session]

  81. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    2 much, Mr. Nice. Now I look at Mr. Greaves. I

    3 believe -- are we still in private session? No. We

    4 should go back into private session.

    5 Just a second, Mr. Greaves. Judge Riad

    6 should like a clarification.

    7 [Private session]

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  82. 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

      1. (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 [Open session]

    17 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in public

    18 session.

    19 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    20 Q. Mr. O, just before I start asking you

    21 questions, I'd just like to ask something of you,

    22 please, about my questions. If there is a question

    23 which you do not understand or don't follow completely,

    24 please stop me immediately and ask me to repeat it or

    25 rephrase it. Will you do that for me, please?

  83. 1 A. Yes.

    2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I wonder if I

    3 could ask the usher to move the ELMO back. My view of

    4 the witness is slightly obscured, and I prefer to be

    5 able to see the witness if I can.

    6 Q. Mr. O, I want to ask one short set of

    7 questions of you personally.

    8 Before the war which broke out in May 1992 in

    9 the Brcko district, were you personally involved in

    10 political life at all, a member of a political party or

    11 anything like that?

    12 A. No. No. No.

    13 Q. Have you become involved as a party member or

    14 anything like that since the war or during the war?

    15 A. No. Not to the present day, no.

    16 Q. Thank you. I'd like now to turn, please, to

    17 the 5th of May. Can I just clarify with you? You were

    18 taken to a mosque. By "mosque", I believe at that

    19 stage there were more than one mosque in Brcko. Which

    20 mosque was it to which were you taken?

    21 A. The Wooden Mosque in Kolobara, opposite the

    22 medical centre.

    23 Q. Is it correct that whilst you were at the

    24 mosque, men were separated from women and children?

    25 A. Yes. Yes, they separated them. The women

  84. 1 and children on one side and the men were separated in

    2 the mosque.

    3 Q. Did there come a time when the women and

    4 children were physically taken away to some other

    5 location?

    6 A. I don't know where they took them. They

    7 loaded them up onto a truck. Where they took them, I

    8 don't know. But afterwards, I heard that my sister had

    9 gone home because her house was nearby, quite near the

    10 mosque.

    11 Q. Did you subsequently hear where any of the

    12 others had gone to?

    13 A. No.

    14 Q. Did that leave something between 200 to 300

    15 people at the wooden Mosque?

    16 A. Yes. That's right.

    17 Q. Would this be right: that those were all

    18 male people and all between the ages of 16 or 18 and

    19 60, i.e., people of military age?

    20 A. Yes. Yes, and even over 60 years of age.

    21 Q. In due course, were all of those people taken

    22 to the JNA barracks in the centre of Brcko?

    23 A. They took us off by truck, some 30 of us, and

    24 took us away. I don't know whether all those people

    25 came to the barracks. But when we reached the

  85. 1 barracks, there were others there too, young men, and

    2 there were about 200 to 300 of us there at the

    3 barracks. I can't confirm if all the people from the

    4 mosque were taken to the barracks. I don't know.

    5 Q. Were all of you taken from the barracks to

    6 Luka?

    7 A. From the barracks? Yes, all of them were

    8 taken. Two or three buses came, four buses perhaps.

    9 We boarded the buses and were taken to Luka.

    10 Q. Was the date when you were taken, was that

    11 the 8th of May?

    12 A. I couldn't tell you exactly whether it was

    13 the 7th or 8th of May.

    14 Q. Mr. O --

    15 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honours just give me

    16 a moment, please.

    17 Q. Can you help me about this: The first day

    18 that you were there, when you arrived at Luka were

    19 there already detainees there or were you the first

    20 people to arrive?

    21 A. There were perhaps some 50 or 60 people

    22 there. We were the second batch to arrive. Where the

    23 first batch had come from, I don't know.

    24 Q. Would you help us about this: Was it obvious

    25 to you that the camp, if we can call it that, the

  86. 1 facility, had just been opened for the reception of

    2 detainees when you got there?

    3 A. Could you clarify that question, please?

    4 Q. Yes. From what you could see with your own

    5 eyes, did it appear to you that the camp or facility

    6 had just, i.e., that day, had just been opened for

    7 reception of detainees?

    8 A. Well, judging by what we found there and saw

    9 there, probably these people over 60 had arrived some

    10 half an hour before us. We were the next people to

    11 arrive.

    12 Q. From what you could see upon your arrival,

    13 were there any signs that it had previously been used

    14 for detainees, or was it the case that the people that

    15 had arrived before you must have been the first ones?

    16 A. As far as I was able to gather, we were the

    17 first detainees there.

    18 Q. Thank you. During the course of your first

    19 morning at Luka, is this right: that half the

    20 detainees were allowed to leave?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Was that after a process of interrogation or

    23 a process of somebody going through identity

    24 documents? How was that achieved?

    25 A. No. Documents, on the basis of documents.

  87. 1 Once they had looked through the documents, there was

    2 no interrogation.

    3 Q. Who was it who was looking through the

    4 documents?

    5 A. From our own SUP, there were two men, and

    6 there were some other policemen whom I didn't know.

    7 Q. Were you able to tell that they were from SUP

    8 because they were in police uniform or because you knew

    9 them? How did you know?

    10 A. They were in police uniform.

    11 Q. Did they have any badges of rank indicating

    12 that they were more than just ordinary police officers?

    13 A. I didn't notice. Perhaps they did, but I

    14 didn't notice.

    15 Q. Were those people issued with any sort of

    16 pass that you saw?

    17 A. On the first day, no, they didn't receive any

    18 passes. They would just show their personal

    19 documents. But later on, passes were issued.

    20 Q. Those passes that were issued, did you have

    21 an opportunity of seeing such a pass?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Is this also right, as far as the first day

    24 of your detention: Throughout that day, people

    25 continued to arrive, new detainees continued to arrive?

  88. 1 A. In the course of that day, yes. One group

    2 would arrive, another group would leave.

    3 Q. So the process, if I can just summarise it

    4 with you, Mr. O, throughout the day, people are coming

    5 in and people are going out, their documents having

    6 been scrutinised and they're hoping that they have been

    7 assessed?

    8 A. Yes, yes.

    9 Q. I appreciate it's very difficult to estimate

    10 numbers and so on, Mr. O, but if you can help us, I

    11 would be most grateful. How many people do you think

    12 passed through Luka that first day?

    13 A. On the first day, I think, according to my

    14 free assessment, about four to five hundred quite

    15 certainly.

    16 Q. I'd like to ask you now about having seen

    17 various collections of bodies at various stages during

    18 your stay at Luka.

    19 Can you help me about this, that when you saw

    20 groups of corpses, you were able to see that they were

    21 people, some of them, who had never been detained in

    22 the warehouses?

    23 A. The bodies, well, I wasn't -- I never even

    24 looked properly, and the guards would not let me. I

    25 only recognised my fellow worker, because I knew him

  89. 1 well and I saw him. There were piles of these and

    2 heaps of those bodies scattered all over. I wasn't

    3 really looking much to tell you anything about them.

    4 Q. Mr. O, I would like you to answer this,

    5 please: Do you recall, shortly after your exchange,

    6 within about three or four days, you were interviewed

    7 by members of the Bosnia-Herzegovina security

    8 authorities? Do you recall that?

    9 A. Yes, yes.

    10 Q. During the course of that interview, did they

    11 write down what you were telling them and put it into

    12 statement form?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. At the end of the question-and-answer

    15 session, did you have an opportunity of going through

    16 the statement?

    17 A. Yes, but I did not read it, and I signed it

    18 without reading it.

    19 Q. Was it read over to you?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. What was the process of going through the

    22 statement so that you could ensure that what was

    23 written down was what you had said?

    24 A. As I have said, I did not read it, and I

    25 signed it. I trusted them to have noted down all that

  90. 1 I had told them. And, yes, it is there -- there is a

    2 mistake in that statement. They wrote that I had seen

    3 Goran kill my fellow worker, (redacted); however,

    4 I did not see him kill. I only saw my fellow worker

    5 dead. That was a mistake. But the rest of it, now

    6 that I have read it, yes, it all tallies.

    7 Q. You've had a look at it again as part of the

    8 process of being here in The Hague, and with that one

    9 exception, everything in that statement is correct, is

    10 it?

    11 A. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

    12 Q. Can I just refresh your memory as to one

    13 thing which you said in that statement, Mr. O? When

    14 you were talking about people carrying corpses, you

    15 said this:

    16 "There were many corpses of people who were

    17 never in the warehouses where the prisoners stayed, so

    18 I think maybe they were killed somewhere else and

    19 brought to that place."

    20 Does that refresh your memory?

    21 A. Yes, I did say that. Yes --

    22 Q. And that was -- I'm sorry, I interrupted you

    23 and you were going to add. I do apologise. Please

    24 finish what you were going to say.

    25 A. I wanted to say that all those who entered

  91. 1 the Luka yard did not go into the hangar. There were

    2 quite a number of people who remained outside, and what

    3 happened to them, were they taken back, were they taken

    4 away, I don't know. But very many, very many of them,

    5 had got as far as Luka and then went on further. They

    6 were not brought into the hangar.

    7 Q. Can I just clarify with you, because the name

    8 didn't come out clearly on the transcript, Mr. O, in

    9 relation to the statement you made to the

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities: What was the name of

    11 the person that you had said there you had seen killed

    12 but you now recognise that you hadn't seen? Can you

    13 just repeat it, please?

    14 A. What his -- (redacted) was the name of

    15 the person.

    16 Q. Thank you. How was it that you came to learn

    17 the name of Goran Jelisic?

    18 A. In the hangar, I was told by those prisoners

    19 that his name was Goran.

    20 Q. Can you describe him to us, please?

    21 A. As I have said, I have never been near him.

    22 I only saw him from a distance, and I can describe it.

    23 He was brownish hair, young man in his 20s, medium

    24 height, medium weight, rather lively. That would be

    25 all, because I never saw him at close quarters. I was

  92. 1 never near him.

    2 Q. When you say "medium height", what do you

    3 regard, in terms of size in the metric scale, as being

    4 medium height, Mr. O?

    5 A. Well, say 170, 170 centimetres.

    6 Q. I want to ask you now, please, you've

    7 described the killing of a Serb in the hangar?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Do you know the name of that person?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Was the apparent reason that he was killed

    12 was because he had given assistance to a Muslim person?

    13 A. Those were Goran's words, and I heard that.

    14 I heard him say, "Where is that Serb who wants to help

    15 Muslims?" And he took his rifle and fired, and the

    16 soldier who was with him had shown him the man.

    17 Q. On that occasion, was the man you describe as

    18 Goran Jelisic, was he wearing a police uniform on that

    19 occasion?

    20 A. I'm not sure I know. It could have been a

    21 camouflage uniform, but I'm not 100 per cent sure. I

    22 wouldn't be able to tell you exactly.

    23 Q. It's right, isn't it, that in fact the person

    24 who killed that Serb was not Goran Jelisic but somebody

    25 who was either a member of Seselj's troops or Arkan's

  93. 1 troops?

    2 A. Now, I don't know that. Then Goran didn't

    3 kill the other four, because that was the same person

    4 who killed those four.

    5 Q. I want to turn now to the allegation which

    6 you make about Goran Jelisic killing four people on the

    7 11th of May, 1992. Can you tell Their Honours, please,

    8 why it is you made no mention whatever to the

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities about that incident?

    10 A. Possibly I didn't, because we had arrived

    11 from the camp exhausted, been gone through a great

    12 deal, and I may have not mentioned it. I just don't

    13 remember.

    14 There was no particular reason. There was no

    15 design behind it, but it is quite possible that I

    16 failed to.

    17 Q. As far as the suggestion that you make that

    18 you heard him saying to six or seven soldiers that he

    19 killed 30 Muslims every day, finished for today but

    20 would continue tomorrow, again, you never mentioned any

    21 of that to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities. Can you

    22 explain that?

    23 A. Possibly.

    24 Q. The reason, Mr. O, that those things were not

    25 mentioned in that statement is because they never

  94. 1 happened, did they?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, I

    3 already asked you, when you ask that question, I should

    4 like to -- also to support it with something, because

    5 you are suggesting things to the witness. You're

    6 intimidating him. You're affirming him that the

    7 reason -- it is your system of thinking. It may be the

    8 system of your internal law, but we do have Rules of

    9 Procedure and our system here is different.

    10 You begin by literally asserting some truth,

    11 which is yours. You tell -- give us the reason, "Why

    12 didn't you tell Bosnian authorities that Goran Jelisic

    13 said that he was killing 30 Muslims a day, and the

    14 reason is because it did not take place."

    15 I'm not referring to civil law or common law,

    16 but what I'm saying is that you are seeking to

    17 influence the witness; that is, could there be a reason

    18 that these things did not really take place?

    19 I'm not trying to tell you how you have --

    20 what to do and how to do it, quite the contrary, but

    21 here we have to respect rights equally of the

    22 Prosecution and the Defence, but we also have to see

    23 that the witness be allowed to express himself with

    24 clarity. Thank you very much.

    25 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I respectfully

  95. 1 submit that it is a proper and legitimate question to

    2 ask a witness, to proffer to him an explanation of why

    3 he has not said something --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes.

    5 MR. GREAVES: -- on a previous occasion so

    6 that he may deal with it.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] It is a

    8 legitimate -- it is legitimate to tackle this

    9 particular problem, of course, to try to show the

    10 witness that there can be other possible answers. That

    11 of course, is your absolute right. But you cannot, you

    12 cannot, telling him like that, coolly, "The reason is

    13 that this did not take place."

    14 As my colleague says, the witness answered

    15 and gave you his reasons. He already told you before.

    16 He told you that it was quite possible that he had

    17 failed to mention it because he was upset, but that is

    18 the answer.

    19 It is the manner in which questions are asked

    20 which bothers me, because you assert your opinion

    21 without an explanation, and then you leave the witness

    22 to somehow manage to make the best out of your

    23 opinion.

    24 As I have said, this is not either civil law

    25 or common law. It is a judicial system which gives a

  96. 1 chance to the Prosecution, to the Defence, to the

    2 accused, and to the witness the freedom to answer

    3 questions which are formulated, which is worded

    4 precisely, rather than to react to your opinions.

    5 Thank you very much for your attention.

    6 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, can I just deal

    7 with one matter? I'm upset that Your Honour should

    8 accuse me of intimidating the witness. Nothing that I

    9 have done, I submit, is in the least bit intimidatory

    10 to the witness, and I must say I'm unhappy at that

    11 suggestion. I have been polite, scrupulously polite,

    12 to every witness, and I'm afraid I just cannot accept

    13 that.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] To begin with,

    15 I told you that by asking that question in that

    16 particular fashion, it might frighten the witness, and

    17 it is a form of intimidating the witness. And what

    18 really -- you should know that the witness comes from

    19 his country, that this is a situation that is a bit

    20 surrealistic for him, and, after all -- and being the

    21 Defence, being a lawyer, and you are at home here but

    22 he's not. Yet, you place him in a difficult situation

    23 in this manner.

    24 I'm not saying that you intimidated him, I'm

    25 just asking you to take care, to proceed carefully.

  97. 1 Thank you.

    2 MR. GREAVES: May we go into closed session

    3 now, please?

    4 [Private session]

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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  102. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 [Open session]

    10 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

    11 Q. I think two questions, please, Witness O,

    12 arising from questions you've been asked about your

    13 statement to the Bosnian authorities and also in

    14 relation to what you saw outside of -- by the way of

    15 people being made to go outside and not coming back.

    16 You said that there was something in your

    17 statement to the Bosnian authorities that was

    18 inaccurate. Just help me in this way: Did you mention

    19 a name Akib Hadziajlic in the statement to the Bosnian

    20 authorities?

    21 A. Akib Hadziajlic. No, I don't think so.

    22 Q. A man from Brezovo Polje?

    23 A. From Brezovo Polje, yes.

    24 Q. Do you remember anything that happened to

    25 him?

  103. 1 A. Yes.

    2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak

    3 into the microphone, please?

    4 A. I saw Akib Hadziajlic in Luka, and he was

    5 alive when they brought him there. He never came into

    6 the hangar which we were in, but when I took the

    7 garbage outside I saw the man dead.

    8 Q. Did you see anything of his --

    9 A. I did not see, as it says in the statement,

    10 who killed him. It says that I saw Goran kill him.

    11 Q. You didn't see that, you just saw --

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. -- the body later?

    14 A. Yes, that's right.

    15 Q. Then the second thing arising from the

    16 statement is this: Of course, in both statements you

    17 deal with matters of the conditions at the camps in

    18 much more detail than I've asked you about because

    19 we're focusing the Court's interest on just one or two

    20 parts of your evidence. That's correct, isn't it?

    21 A. [No audible response]

    22 Q. But how many people in all, in your

    23 estimation, were led away or taken away from the

    24 hangar, never to return? What was the total number, if

    25 you can estimate it, of people who went away, never to

  104. 1 return, in the time that you were there?

    2 A. In my estimation, about 50 people at least.

    3 MR. NICE: Nothing else for this witness.

    4 Thank you.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    6 much.

    7 Now I will ask my colleagues if they have

    8 some additional questions.

    9 Judge Riad? No questions.

    10 Judge Rodrigues?

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

    12 please. Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Witness O, good afternoon.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

    15 Sit down, Mr. Nice. I regularly forget, but

    16 this applies also to the Defence, you may sit down

    17 after you have finished speaking. Of course, I thank

    18 you for all the deference towards the Bench, but you

    19 may sit down after you have finished.

    20 Now, Judge Rodrigues.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness O,

    22 I should like to go back with you to the conditions

    23 under which you made your statement to the

    24 Bosnian-Herzegovinian authorities, and I will ask you

    25 two questions, very precise.

  105. 1 When did you make that statement?

    2 A. I gave the first statement -- I was exchanged

    3 on the 5th, so four or five days later. It could have

    4 been the 9th or 10th, I don't know exactly, in Rahici,

    5 where I was exchanged. It's a village next to Brcko,

    6 and I think I made the statement on that date.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The 9th or

    8 10th of May? No.

    9 A. In October, when I was exchanged.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Right. So

    11 you came out from the camp?

    12 A. Yes. Three or four days after I had left the

    13 camp.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In the

    15 morning or in the afternoon?

    16 A. As far as I remember, it was neither in the

    17 morning nor in the afternoon. Sometime in midday.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Where did

    19 you make that statement? Was it a public building, was

    20 it a place familiar to you?

    21 A. Well, I didn't know the building. It was

    22 wartime, you see, and I suppose those people who had

    23 come from Brcko, they found a house. It was a

    24 veterinary station in Rahic, and that's where they were

    25 working and that's where I went.

  106. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How did you

    2 get there to make the statement? Did somebody ask you

    3 to come; did somebody come to fetch you, to look for

    4 you? How was that?

    5 A. When I was exchanged, we were all told to

    6 report in two or three days' time to make a statement,

    7 so it wasn't in writing. I went to a man, and --

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Were you

    9 told what would be the objective pursued of that

    10 statement?

    11 A. No.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So your

    13 statement, you made that statement spontaneously, or

    14 were you answering questions posed to you? How was

    15 that?

    16 A. No. Questions, if I recall, although I

    17 couldn't remember a lot of that previously because we

    18 had come from the camp and we were exhausted, both

    19 psychologically and physically.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    21 Thank you very much, Witness O.

    22 Thank you very much, Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    24 Judge Rodrigues.

    25 Well, your evidence has now come to an end.

  107. 1 Thank you very much. You were very brave in coming

    2 here.

    3 Do you think you told us all that you wanted

    4 to tell us? If you feel that you would like to add

    5 something, do not hesitate, please. You may add, if

    6 you wish, something. If not, then this will be the end

    7 of your evidence.

    8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very

    9 much. I have nothing more to add.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.

    11 Thank you very much.

    12 So now we shall take care of you. I wish you

    13 farewell. Back home, I do hope you will find your

    14 serenity again, now that you have told us your story.

    15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope so too,

    16 Your Honour.

    17 MR. NICE: The next witness is ready. He

    18 should not take very long. Mr. Tochilovsky is going to

    19 take him. He requires or seeks the same measure of

    20 protection as this witness.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. So

    22 we shall, I think, benefit from these blinds down and

    23 ask that the witness be escorted from the courtroom.

    24 [The witness withdrew]

    25 MR. NICE: I'll withdraw for a minute, if I

  108. 1 may, to say farewell to the last witness. 2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, of 3 course.

    4 Will you please bring in Witness P.

    5 [The witness entered court]

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can you hear

    7 me? Witness, can you hear me?

    8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] You can.

    10 First, we shall ask you to verify your name.

    11 Do not pronounce it. Just indicate, with your head,

    12 whether this is, indeed, your name.

    13 Very well.

    14 Now you will make a solemn declaration. You

    15 will read this, in your mother tongue, from what this

    16 piece of paper says.

    17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    18 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    19 and nothing but the truth.


    21 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    22 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    23 Now, Witness P, because we shall call you

    24 "Witness P", you may be seated. Please do sit down.

    25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

  109. 1 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Relax. You

    2 came here at the request of the Prosecutor's office as

    3 part of the process conducted by the International

    4 Criminal Tribunal against Goran Jelisic, and he is

    5 sitting behind the Defence and between two guards.

    6 Please relax. You are now before the Judges. Please

    7 feel serene and calm. Take your time in answering

    8 questions, and if you are tired or perhaps if you feel

    9 too upset, which can be quite understandable in view of

    10 the experience, do not hesitate to tell us, "May I have

    11 a break." One of our previous witnesses did ask for a

    12 break and to have a cigarette, so you may do that if

    13 you feel that.

    14 Now, Mr. Tochilovsky will ask some

    15 questions. I suppose you already know him, and he will

    16 ask you his questions, Mr. Tochilovsky. Then you will

    17 be asked questions by the Defence, and then by the

    18 Judges, if they deem it necessary.

    19 Mr. Tochilovsky.

    20 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    21 Q. Witness P, the document in front of you is

    22 the summary of your statements that you have had an

    23 opportunity to read and recognise as a correct summary

    24 of your statement?

    25 A. Yes.

  110. 1 Q. Witness P, before the war, did you live in

    2 the Novo Brcko area of Brcko?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Was that a mixed populated part of Brcko

    5 where Croats, Muslims, and Serbs lived?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. On 7 May 1992, did some armed men come and

    8 collect the residents of the area?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Were then Muslims and Croats separated from

    11 Serbs and brought to the barracks?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. When you were at the barracks, did you

    14 volunteer to go to town and clean glass with some other

    15 people?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. The question is whether you volunteered to

    18 clean glass from the town.

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Were you at the police station that day with

    21 other volunteers, with other people at the police

    22 station?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. How did you get there to the police station?

    25 A. Do you want me to explain? First of all,

  111. 1 they asked for volunteers.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Will you please

    3 look at the Judges? The President is talking to you.

    4 When you answer, will you please look at the Judges? I

    5 know it is not easy because questions are coming from

    6 different directions, but when you give your answers,

    7 will you please address us. Thank you.

    8 Yes, you can answer.

    9 A. They first asked for volunteers. When they

    10 couldn't find any volunteers, they asked for 30 people,

    11 predominantly young people, up to 40, 45. Then when

    12 they couldn't find any, they would select the people.

    13 They set aside some 27 of us. There were not 30 young

    14 men there.

    15 Then we stood around and waited for them to

    16 call us. While we waited -- we waited there for about

    17 an hour, an hour and a half, and while we were waiting,

    18 they separated the men, women, and children, and they

    19 took the men to buses and off in an unknown direction.

    20 Several minutes later, after they had taken

    21 them away, they took us out in front of the SUP

    22 building to clear up the glass.


    24 Q. And where did you clean the glass?

    25 A. I cleaned the glass at the Oslobodjenje

  112. 1 kiosk, the drug store or news-stand where papers were

    2 sold called Oslobodjenje, not the cinema.

    3 Q. When you were cleaning the glass, do you

    4 remember a white Yugo car stopped at that area?

    5 A. Yes. Yes, I remember.

    6 Q. Can you tell the Court what happened next?

    7 A. Yes. When this white car came up, a man got

    8 out of the car, wearing a police uniform, a light blue

    9 uniform, and a young man got out of the car with him,

    10 wearing a black uniform with a white band on the arm.

    11 When they got out, two men were standing

    12 there whom I didn't know. I didn't know them. I was

    13 younger. One of them, wearing the blue uniform, got

    14 out of the car together with the other one. He took

    15 out a baton and began to beat them. He took them into

    16 the SUP building, and two shots were heard.

    17 Q. Just before we come to that point, when they

    18 come out of the car, did the person who beat the

    19 prisoners introduce himself?

    20 A. No, he didn't. No.

    21 Q. Did any one of those who arrived in police

    22 uniform introduce himself by name?

    23 A. No, no.

    24 Q. Who beat those prisoners?

    25 A. The one in the blue uniform. He told me his

  113. 1 name afterwards.

    2 Q. What was the name he told you afterwards?

    3 A. Goran Jelisic, Serbian Adolf.

    4 Q. So then you said that those prisoners were

    5 taken to the police station by whom?

    6 A. By Goran Jelisic.

    7 Q. What happened next?

    8 A. We heard two shots. That is to say, I heard

    9 two shots, and perhaps some ten seconds later, the two

    10 of them left. One went towards the Nova Knjiga, which

    11 is a clothing store, and the other one passed by us,

    12 passed by me, and went towards the Varteks [phoen]

    13 shop, and he was met there by a Serbian soldier, a

    14 young one, perhaps born in 1973, for example. I knew

    15 him well. I just can't remember his name now.

    16 In that five or ten seconds, Goran Jelisic

    17 ran out. He rushed after them. Some other policemen

    18 arrived, who made a circle around the man. He

    19 started -- when they did this, when they stood around

    20 him, he began to cry and to plead. He said, "I have a

    21 wife and children. Don't kill me." But Goran took out

    22 his rifle. He shot him in the shoulder with one

    23 bullet, and when he turned around, he shot him in the

    24 back, and when he fell down, he fired a third bullet

    25 and hit him.

  114. 1 Then he came up to me. He pointed his rifle

    2 at me and asked what my name was. I told him what my

    3 name was. I began to cry. I said I had not dirtied my

    4 hands, sullied my hands. He asked me how old I was. (redacted)

    5 (redacted). He then turned around, looked at my

    6 friend, took a police baton and hit him with it.

    7 He threw a pistol in front of us and told us

    8 to shoot. We didn't do anything. We said, "We're not

    9 going to shoot. We've never done any shooting, and

    10 we've never sullied our hands with blood." He just

    11 smiled, turned around and left.

    12 Q. The person he hit with a baton, what's the

    13 name of that person?

    14 A. Adnan.

    15 Q. Did you move the body of that killed person?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What happened after you moved the body? Did

    18 you see prisoners lined between SUP and the Posavina

    19 Hotel?

    20 A. I didn't see them. That is to say, I did see

    21 them. I saw soldiers, about 20 or 30 of them, maybe

    22 even 40 soldiers. When we started moving, they said

    23 that we shouldn't touch their beards, chins --

    24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not

    25 understand.


    2 Q. Do you remember if anyone was made to sing

    3 songs at that area?

    4 A. Yes. Yes.

    5 Q. So what do you remember about that?

    6 A. Well, first of all, we started clearing up

    7 the glass. Goran Jelisic came and lined us up between

    8 the Posavina, the Oslobodjenje cinema, and the MUP

    9 building, as many of us that were there, and we started

    10 singing Serbian songs.

    11 Then a van came up, and the Serbian soldier

    12 came out of this refrigerator truck. He cursed our

    13 Serbian mother and told us to get away from there.

    14 Goran Jelisic just laughed.

    15 After a certain amount of time, he made a

    16 mistake. Anybody who did not know how to sing the

    17 song, he would be hit by the police baton.

    18 I was a Partizan fan for the football club

    19 Partizan, just like my brother. We were both Partizan

    20 fans.

    21 Then he would line us up and let this

    22 refrigerator truck move by. He put us back in front of

    23 the SUP building, and he told us to look at the Serbian

    24 flag and to sing Serbian songs.

    25 Q. Did Goran Jelisic show you his arm and make

  116. 1 any comments about that?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What kind of comments?

    4 A. He said that a Turk cut him there, cut him

    5 with an axe, cut his hand with an axe.

    6 Q. Did he say what happened to that person?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. Do you remember a female with the name

    9 Violeta at that area when you were there?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Do you remember anything about her? What do

    12 you remember about her?

    13 A. I just remember her carrying a camera, and

    14 she stood beside him. I noticed she once said, "This,

    15 Goran, is your 53rd or 54th in order."

    16 Q. Did she make any sign when she said that?

    17 A. She did. This is what she did with her hand

    18 [demonstrates]. She made this movement.

    19 Q. Demonstrating a gun?

    20 A. Yes. Yes, pulling the trigger of a gun.

    21 Q. Making that sign she mentioned the number?

    22 A. Yes. That's right.

    23 Q. Anyone else use the same sign after her?

    24 A. I can't remember.

    25 Q. Did any soldier make the same sign?

  117. 1 MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, he not having

    2 gotten the answer to the question, he's now

    3 cross-examining his own witness. I object to that.

    4 The witness said he could not remember and that's the

    5 end of it. He can't then go on to pursue a line of

    6 cross-examination, which he's not permitted to do.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

    8 You're right.

    9 Will you wait for the answer of the witness,

    10 Mr. Tochilovsky?

    11 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Yes. I'm still waiting for

    12 the answer whether the witness saw anyone else making

    13 the same gesture.

    14 MR. GREAVES: With respect, he's answered the

    15 question. He says, "I cannot remember." The question

    16 has been asked; it has been answered. That should be

    17 an end to it. He can't then, when he doesn't get the

    18 answer he likes, cross-examine the witness by

    19 continuing to suggest to him who it was who'd done it.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I will ask the

    21 witness.

    22 Are you quite sure that you do not remember?

    23 A. I can only remember that one soldier pointed

    24 a rifle at us, and I cannot remember anything else.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. Right.

  118. 1 Mr. Tochilovsky, do you want to finish by moving on to 2 the list before the break or -- 3 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: No. I have just one -- 4 actually, two short questions.

    5 Q. Witness P, were you detained at Batkovic

    6 camp?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did you see Goran Jelisic at that camp?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So I can move to the list in private

    11 session.

    12 [Private session]

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  119. 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 --- Recess taken at 3.57 p.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

    19 [Open session]

    20 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will now

    21 resume the hearing. Please be seated. Bring the

    22 accused into the courtroom.

    23 [The accused entered court]

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves,

    25 please go ahead.

  120. 1 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your

    2 Honour.

    3 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    4 Q. Mr. P, I'm going to ask you some questions.

    5 Can I ask you, please, to do this: If you do not

    6 understand my question or it's confusing in any way,

    7 stop me straightaway and ask me to repeat it or

    8 rephrase it. Will you do that for me, please?

    9 A. I will.

    10 Q. Thank you very much. I want to ask you,

    11 please, about some of the events of May the 7th of

    12 1992. Could you help me please about this: When you

    13 were first rounded up on that day, is it right that

    14 amongst the people who were being rounded up were

    15 people from all ethnic groups?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. If I can just help you about where we're

    18 going in this: that Muslims and Croats were gathered

    19 together, and those Serbs who were in the area were

    20 separated from the Muslims and the Croats. Do you

    21 remember that?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. So understand what I mean. Again, I put it

    24 very badly and we've clarified that.

    25 Only the Muslims and the Croats were taken to

  121. 1 the barracks; is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. In the group of people who were collected

    4 with you, how many people were there?

    5 A. I cannot remember.

    6 Q. In due course, having arrived at the

    7 barracks, is this right: that there was then a further

    8 process of separation which took place, in that women,

    9 children, and men who were not of military age were

    10 separated from the rest of you?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. That group was then put aboard buses and

    13 taken somewhere else?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you know where the people who were put on

    16 buses were taken to?

    17 A. I don't know.

    18 Q. When they had gone, was there then some

    19 further process of separation in which the men between

    20 16 and 17 and 45 were separated from those who were

    21 over 45, this taking place on the drill square or the

    22 parade ground?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. At that point, were there between 200 and 300

    25 people on the parade ground?

  122. 1 A. Well, approximately that many. I cannot say

    2 for sure. I cannot give you the exact number.

    3 Q. I wonder whether we might just move into

    4 private session, please.

    5 [Private session]

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  123. 1












    13 page 1673 redacted private session













  124. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 [Open session]

    19 MR. GREAVES:

    20 Q. Mr. P, there came a time outside, when you

    21 were engaged in the cleaning exercise, that -- and it

    22 comes to this, doesn't it, that a considerable amount

    23 of commotion took place over this person who had

    24 escaped; would that be right?

    25 A. Yes.

  125. 1 Q. Again, I don't want you to give any detailed

    2 answer to this, but in 1992, how old were you? Don't

    3 tell us your date of birth but just how old you were.

    4 A. (redacted)

    5 (redacted).

    6 Q. Had you, by then, done your compulsory

    7 military service or had you managed to avoid going into

    8 the army?

    9 A. I managed to avoid going to the army.

    10 Q. Would this be fair, that the incident where

    11 you saw someone being killed, had you ever seen anybody

    12 being killed before?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. You had seen someone being killed before?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. I thought that was right.

    17 Can you help me about this: Do you know the

    18 name of the person, the prisoner who had escaped? Was

    19 it Hasan Jasarevic?

    20 A. I only knew his nickname, which was Cena.

    21 Q. Would this be fair, Mr. P, that this was the

    22 worst and most shocking thing that had ever happened to

    23 you, that you had ever witnessed in your life?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. I don't intend any criticism by what I now

  126. 1 ask you, but is this right: that the incident which

    2 you witnessed, it must have shaken you up and made it

    3 very confusing as to what had happened for the rest of

    4 the day? Would that be fair?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Again, I intend no criticism of you, but

    7 we're now seven years from that event. Is it possible

    8 that you may have mistaken events or misheard things,

    9 badly remembered them, in the period that's happened

    10 since then?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. I want to ask you about this: When the

    13 person identified as Goran came out, he complained, did

    14 he not, about an injury which he had got?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. It's right, isn't it, that that was a wound

    17 to the lower part of his arm, this part of the arm

    18 [indicates], which was about ten centimetres long and

    19 was fresh and bleeding?

    20 A. Yes, yes, but he could have got it any way.

    21 Q. I don't want to worry -- you didn't see how

    22 he got it, and you don't know how he got that injury,

    23 did you? You didn't see how he got the injury?

    24 A. I did not see how he got it, no.

    25 Q. As far as what he is alleged by you to have

  127. 1 said at that point, what I would like to ask you is

    2 that's one thing that I would ask you, whether it's

    3 possible you may have been mistaken as to the phrase

    4 that he used.

    5 A. Could you please rephrase your question?

    6 Q. Yes. It's not accepted that he said that,

    7 and I am asking you is it possible that that is a

    8 matter about which you may be either mistaken or simply

    9 wrong?

    10 A. No. No.

    11 Q. Again, as far as the girl saying something

    12 about numbers and making a gesture like pulling a

    13 trigger on a gun, again it's not accepted that that was

    14 done. Is it possible that you are mistaken or wrong

    15 about that matter?

    16 A. I cannot recall the exact number, but I know

    17 she said the 34th or the 35th, or the 33rd and 34th.

    18 Rather, 53, sorry, 53.

    19 Q. You were detained for a second time at Luka

    20 later on in the year; is that correct?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. What were the dates when you were detained

    23 for the second time?

    24 A. The 18th of June, 1992.

    25 Q. Finally as to these matters, it's right,

  128. 1 isn't it, that at no stage did you see Goran Jelisic at

    2 Luka facility?

    3 A. That's right.

    4 MR. GREAVES: I'd like just to return,

    5 please, to private session.

    6 [Private session]

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

      1. (redacted)

  129. 1












    13 page 1679 redacted private session













  130. 1 [Open session]

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you for

    3 your concision, Mr. Greaves.

    4 Does Mr. Tochilovsky have any questions?

    5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: No questions.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    7 Judge Riad? No questions.

    8 Judge Rodrigues?

    9 Do you have anything you want to add yourself

    10 after all the questions you were asked? Did you say

    11 more or less everything that you wanted to say?

    12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The Tribunal

    14 would like to thank you for having answered its

    15 summons, which must have required a great deal of

    16 effort on your part and forced you to recall all these

    17 dreadful events of your life. We hope, because you're

    18 still young, in fact very young, we hope that the rest

    19 of your life will be happy, as you deserve. Thank

    20 you.

    21 You will be taken care of and you will be

    22 escorted, and have a safe journey home.

    23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

    24 [The witness withdrew]

    25 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Without any

  131. 1 further delay, we're going to have the next witness

    2 brought into the courtroom.

    3 [The witness entered court]

    4 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear

    5 me?

    6 Good afternoon. We're going to ask you to

    7 check your identity which is indicated on the piece of

    8 paper that the usher is showing you. Don't say your

    9 name, don't pronounce it. Is that your family name and

    10 your first name?

    11 Thank you.

    12 You're going to take an oath now by reading a

    13 formula which has been written in your own language,

    14 which the usher is also giving to you. Please

    15 proceed.

    16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

    17 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

    18 and nothing but the truth.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be

    20 seated. Thank you. You were called to the

    21 International Criminal Tribunal for the trial which has

    22 been initiated by the Office of the Prosecutor, on your

    23 right, against Mr. Goran Jelisic, who is on your left

    24 between two guards. You can see him on your left. You

    25 must have had the procedures explained to you.

  132. 1 Please try to relax. I'm sure that you

    2 have some very painful things to relate. Try to be

    3 calm. You are in front of Judges, and you will be able

    4 to relax and to answer all the questions that will be

    5 asked of you first by the Prosecution and then by

    6 Defence counsel for the accused.

    7 Mr. Tochilovsky, you may proceed.


    9 Examined by Mr. Tochilovsky:

    10 Q. Witness Q, the document in front of you, did

    11 you have an opportunity to read it and recognise it as

    12 a correct summary of your statement?

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

    14 speak into the microphone?


    16 Q. Yes. Could you please speak into the

    17 microphone?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. With regard to the events you witnessed in

    20 Brcko on May 6, 1992, were you taken to the army

    21 barracks in Brcko?

    22 A. Yes. I was taken to the barracks on the

    23 6th of May from the building where I lived.

    24 Q. The next day, were you taken with some other

    25 people to clean the town?

  133. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Where did you clean the town, which area?

    3 A. We cleaned the centre of town and the SUP

    4 police station.

    5 Q. Can you tell the Court, what did you see

    6 there at that area when you cleaned?

    7 A. There were quite a few men in uniform,

    8 policemen. There was quite a bit of broken glass from

    9 the bridges that were blown up, and the town was

    10 empty.

    11 Q. When you arrived there, did you see other

    12 workers there and did you see what happened to them,

    13 whether any actions were taken against them by anyone?

    14 A. When we came from the military barracks, we

    15 were split into groups, and we were supposed to clean

    16 the SUP building. Some groups went upstairs, and I

    17 remained downstairs with two or three others.

    18 We cleaned up the glass there because when

    19 the bridges were blown up, the glass on the windows

    20 were broken.

    21 In front of the SUP building, Jelisic lined

    22 up three men who were in the same group that came

    23 together with me, and he was hitting their knees with

    24 his baton.

    25 Q. What happened next? Did -- the man whom you

  134. 1 just named as Goran Jelisic, what did he do next?

    2 A. Yes. He brought them into the SUP police

    3 station. Two minutes later, two men raced out of the

    4 police building. One of them started to run away

    5 towards the Borovo shop, and the other one started to

    6 run by the kiosk where I was cleaning glass, and he

    7 started fleeing in that direction towards Agro Banka.

    8 That is how one could pass between these two

    9 buildings.

    10 Q. What happened next?

    11 A. At that point in time, a shot rang out, and

    12 two or three policemen in uniform raced out and Jelisic

    13 raced out too. They caught the first one that was

    14 running away, right by the kiosk, between those two

    15 buildings, that is. He was caught by a policeman in

    16 uniform who was there, and he handed him over to

    17 Goran. Goran shot two bullets into his back and then

    18 another bullet.

    19 After that, after that, he came to the

    20 kiosk. He hit me on the head and on the neck with his

    21 baton, and he pointed his pistol at me, and he asked

    22 about the Green Berets and the ZNGs, and he started

    23 cursing my Muslim mother. At that point, he turned the

    24 gun around and said that I should shoot him. Of

    25 course, I refused to do that, because I had no need to

  135. 1 shoot at him.

    2 Q. Did anyone, any soldiers or anyone around

    3 you, make any comments with regard to Goran Jelisic at

    4 that time?

    5 A. Yes. One soldier said, "Adolf, that's your

    6 52nd today."

    7 Q. Do you remember people singing at the police

    8 station and were they made to sing or not?

    9 A. Yes, but before that occurrence, there was

    10 another one. We got into the MUP building or, rather,

    11 the SUP building, where we had to carry the bodies out

    12 of -- the dead bodies.

    13 Q. Whose bodies did you see there?

    14 A. The body of a worker who was lined up with

    15 the two who had fled, and the body of Amir Novalic,

    16 nicknamed Fric.

    17 Q. Then that singing, what can you tell the

      1. Court about that?

    19 A. We were lined up in the street, and Goran

    20 Jelisic was conducting with his baton, and we sang

    21 their songs. At that point, a truck came up, and he

    22 asked Goran to remove these men so that the truck would

    23 not run over them. Goran answered, "Ah, fuck. Just

    24 run over them."

    25 Q. Later in August 1992, were you shown Goran

  136. 1 Jelisic again? Did you see Goran Jelisic again?

    2 A. Yes. I saw him at the Es settlement, as he

    3 was walking with Monika Simonovic. A friend of mine, a

    4 Serb, who is my friend until the present day, told me

    5 his exact name and surname. That Serb knew where I had

    6 been on the 7th of May, and he said, "That's where you

    7 were, so I don't have to tell you about all the

    8 details."

    9 Q. Thank you, Witness Q.

    10 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: Now we can move to private

    11 session for the lists.

    12 [Private session]

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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  140. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 [Open session]

    13 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in public

    14 session.

    15 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:

    16 Q. Witness Q, before I start asking you

    17 questions, can I just ask you to do this, please: If

    18 there is any question which you do not understand or

    19 which in some way is confusing to you, please stop me

    20 immediately please and ask me to either repeat it or

    21 rephrase it so that I make a better job of it next

    22 time. All right. Will you do that for me, please?

    23 A. Right.

    24 Q. Thank you. Just to start, please, with some

    25 personal questions about you. Before the war which

  141. 1 broke out in Brcko in 1992, were you involved in any

    2 way in politics?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Since or -- during or since the war have you

    5 become involved in politics?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Thank you. I want to ask now, please, about

    8 the day when you were transferred to the barracks in, I

    9 think, the centre of Brcko.

    10 How many people were taken with you to those

    11 barracks?

    12 A. I don't know the exact number.

    13 Q. Approximately?

    14 A. I can't, because I was so frightened I really

    15 dared not look or try to judge -- to figure out how

    16 many people there could be there.

    17 Q. When you got to the barracks, were you placed

    18 in its cinema hall and were there already a number of

    19 people there?

    20 A. They put us in the cinema hall. There were

    21 some people, and we spent about half an hour there.

    22 Then they began to separate women and children for

    23 Brezovo Polje, and the men stayed behind in the cinema

    24 hall.

    25 Q. Were the women and children actually sent off

  142. 1 to Brezovo Polje? Was it them who were sent there?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. The men who remained, were they the men

    4 between the ages of 16 or 18 and 60, i.e., men of

    5 military age?

    6 A. They were men of different ages, from 15

    7 onward.

    8 Q. It's right, isn't it, that at that stage the

    9 group of people who were at the barracks contained

    10 people from all ethnic groups?

    11 A. No. There were only about 15 people who were

    12 not of Muslim origin, that is, who are Serbs, who left

    13 shortly afterwards to sweep or -- rather, no, to work

    14 at a farm, so that only the Muslims and Croats

    15 remained.

    16 Q. On the following day, Witness Q, were more

    17 people brought into the barracks?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Again, did that comprise men, women, and

    20 children?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Again, were they separated out and the women

    23 and children sent elsewhere?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you know if that group was also sent to

  143. 1 Brezovo Polje or was it sent somewhere else?

    2 A. They said they were going to Brezovo Polje.

    3 I wasn't in Brezovo Polje, so I cannot really affirm

    4 that they were in Brezovo Polje.

    5 Q. I understand that entirely, Mr. Q, but that's

    6 what you understood their destination to be?

    7 A. Yes. That is what those who were sending

    8 them there said.

    9 Q. I want to turn now to the events that take

    10 place when you were asked to volunteer and you were

    11 taken off to go and clean up the town centre.

    12 You saw someone called Goran Jelisic. Had

    13 you ever seen that person before?

    14 A. I did not quite understand your question.

    15 Q. Before the day when you were taken as a

    16 volunteer to go and clean up parts of the town centre,

    17 had you ever seen, before that day, the person Goran

    18 Jelisic?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. You did not learn his name that day?

    21 A. I learned it the day when we went to clean

    22 the centre of the town, that he was called Adolf, that

    23 that was his nickname.

    24 Q. But his real name, you did not learn that

    25 until very much later, did you?

  144. 1 A. I learned that his name was Goran Jelisic,

    2 so-called Serb Adolf, in August. Meanwhile, I didn't

    3 have a hoot [as interpreted] to hear his name from, nor

    4 was I interested in it.

    5 Q. During the course of you being at the SUP

    6 building and then you saw someone being shot, is this

    7 right, that around that time there was a considerable

    8 commotion and chaos during the course of what appears

    9 to be an escape by one or more people?

    10 A. It wasn't all that chaotic, because they

    11 immediately raced out from the police station. They

    12 caught first this one, Jasarevic [realtime transcript

    13 read in error "Jasarovic"]; that is, Hasan, called

    14 Cena. The other one had run down, but they also

    15 captured him. I mean there was some chaos, but not

    16 that much, because there were quite a number of

    17 uniformed policemen and troops and soldiers around.

    18 Q. After, did you know the name of the person

    19 who was escaping and who was shot?

    20 A. I've just said.

    21 Q. It's come out on the transcript as

    22 "Jasarovic". Can I just suggest to you the correct

    23 name, Jasan Hasarevic [sic]? Would that be right?

    24 A. Hasan Jasarevic.

    25 Q. Sorry, I'm transposing my "J"s and my "H"s,

  145. 1 but you think that's the correct name?

    2 A. [In English] Yes.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: The witness makes a sign,

    4 but he did not say anything.

    5 MR. GREAVES:

    6 Q. When you spoke to Goran Jelisic, is it right

    7 that he asked you some questions?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Were those directed at enquiring of you where

    10 the Green Berets were, where other soldiers -- where

    11 other Muslim soldiers were?

    12 A. Not only the Muslim ones. He was also asking

    13 about the HVO, and that is the Croatian army. He was

    14 also asking me about them, when he hit me with his

    15 baton on the head and on the neck and pointed his gun

    16 at me. And when you see his finger on the trigger, he

    17 wanted me to tell him. I had no idea, because I wasn't

    18 involved in any party, nor was I interested in the war.

    19 Q. I understand that. You've claimed to Their

    20 Honours today that a soldier came up and said something

    21 along the lines of, "Adolf, that's your 52nd today."

    22 What you told the Office of the Prosecutor, when you

    23 made your statement to them, was this:

    24 "I heard a soldier say that, 'Good, that's

    25 the 52nd today,' and mentioned the Serb Adolf."

  146. 1 A. Adolf, evocative, he called to him and said,

    2 "That's your 52nd."

    3 Q. But what you told the Office of the

    4 Prosecutor, you didn't say anything about it being

    5 "your 52nd", merely that "the 52nd". Do you remember

    6 making that statement to the Prosecutor?

    7 A. "It's your 52nd," or, "It's 52nd for you."

    8 Q. As far as the man Amir Novalic is

    9 concerned --

    10 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps we can just go briefly

    11 into private session, please.

    12 [Private session]

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  147. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 [Open session]

    17 MR. GREAVES:

    18 Q. In due course during the course of cleaning

    19 the police station or being outside again, were you

    20 advised by a police officer to be careful because a

    21 sniper was shooting from the Croatian side of the River

    22 Sava?

    23 A. You said when we went out to clean. No. As

    24 we were carrying two bodies, he said first, "We shall

    25 throw them into the Sava from the Sava Bridge." Then

  148. 1 when we started, he said, "No, no, no, you can't do

    2 that because there are snipers on the Croatian side,"

    3 so that we left two bodies by the cinema there; that

    4 is, Karagic's and Novalic's body, known as Fric.

    5 Q. As far as being asked at any stage to sing

    6 songs, what I would like to ask you is this: That is

    7 not accepted, and I would ask is it possible that you

    8 are mistaken or wrong about that, Mr. Q?

    9 A. I don't understand.

    10 Q. Mr. Q, do you understand this: That it's not

    11 accepted by Goran Jelisic that you were forced to sing

    12 songs that afternoon? The question is this: Is it

    13 possible that you are either mistaken or, indeed,

    14 wrong, completely incorrect about that incident?

    15 A. No, no.

    16 Q. I want to ask you now, please, about an event

    17 in June 1992.

    18 Did you return to the SUP building in June

    19 and see some people there?

    20 A. Yes. I returned to the police station

    21 building again because I had no pass.

    22 Q. Did you have to go and see one of the

    23 inspectors at SUP?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Was that Petar Kaurinovic?

  149. 1 A. No, I did not say it was Petar. I said

    2 Kaurinovic, (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted). I said I didn't have a pass, and they

    7 took me into a room where there was another inspector.

    8 And after a night -- I can't remember his name. I

    9 didn't know his name, so I never mentioned his name.

    10 He asked about my name and whether I was involved in

    11 any SDA political stream or something, and I said,

    12 "No." (redacted).

    13 MR. GREAVES: (redacted)

    14 (redacted). May we go into private

    15 session, please.

    16 [Private session]

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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  153. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 [Open session]

    10 MR. GREAVES:

    11 Q. Witness Q, I want to ask you, please, just --

    12 I want to go back to June the 7th, 1992. I think at

    13 that stage, some police officers came looking to an

    14 apartment where you were staying and were looking for

    15 members of your family. Don't tell us any of the names

    16 of members of your family, but were they looking for

    17 passes belonging to your family?

    18 A. They asked for the pass but I did not have

    19 that pass.

    20 Q. But did members of your family have a pass?

    21 A. Only one member, my father, because he was

    22 the only one who was with me there. My mother and my

    23 sister were not there.

    24 Q. Was there a friend with you?

    25 A. Yes. He left. He also had a pass. They had

  154. 1 been issued with passes in Luka because a friend of

    2 mine had saved them from Luka.

    3 Q. Thank you. Finally, Witness Q, I want to ask

    4 you about this: When a Serbian friend of yours was

    5 discussing the name of Goran Jelisic, was that in

    6 August 1992?

    7 A. Yes. Yes, in the playground.

    8 Q. In the playground. Can you be more specific

    9 as to what the date in August 1992 was?

    10 A. No, not really. First, I was very fearful

    11 when I came out. I was frightened. I'd spent months

    12 frightened since May. He was with me, afraid that I

    13 might go crazy because I was locked in that apartment.

    14 I couldn't go anywhere. So he came after me to just

    15 help me keep my sanity.

    16 Q. If you're not able to be specific about an

    17 exact day, can you place that incident, as it were, in

    18 part of the month, beginning, mid, or end?

    19 A. What incident?

    20 Q. When Goran Jelisic was pointed out to you

    21 when you were on the playground.

    22 A. Nobody needed point him out because I knew

    23 that, yes, it was August but I simply don't know the

    24 day. I cannot really say whether it was midway through

    25 the month, beginning, or end. I just don't know.

  155. 1 Q. All right, Mr. Q. Thank you very much.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    3 Mr. Greaves.

    4 We turn to Mr. Tochilovsky.

    5 MR. TOCHILOVSKY: I don't have any

    6 questions.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

    8 Judge Riad? No questions? Judge Rodrigues? No

    9 questions?

    10 You have finished now. We thank you very

    11 much. You have shown a great deal of courage by coming

    12 to The Hague and answering the questions about these

    13 events, which I'm sure you will remember in your

    14 conscience throughout your life.

    15 What the Judges would like to tell you, in

    16 addition to their gratitude, is that they hope that the

    17 remainder of your life will be a happier one. Thank

    18 you.

    19 Please do not move. We have concluded our

    20 work for this afternoon. Let me remind you that

    21 tomorrow we will resume in the afternoon.

    22 Let me turn to my colleagues.

    23 [Trial Chamber confers]

    24 JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We will start

    25 tomorrow at 2.00. There have been some -- Wednesday we

  156. 1 start at 1.30, but tomorrow we'll start at 2.00.

    2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    3 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

    4 Wednesday, the 15th day of September,

    5 1999 at 2.00 p.m.