Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Thursday, 31 July 2008

 2                           [Initial Appearance]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 4.05 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  This is case number

 9     IT-95-5/18, the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.  You are

11     Mr. Radovan Karadzic?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm Judge Alfons Orie, and I will be presiding over

14     your Initial Appearance in this Tribunal today.  I first of all want to

15     make certain that you're able to follow the proceedings in your own

16     language.  Can you hear me in a language you understand?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If at any time you are not receiving interpretation

19     or if it is difficult for you to hear the interpretation, please inform

20     me immediately so that we can redress that.  Later in the proceedings, I

21     will inform you about the allegations against you, Mr. Karadzic, and so

22     it is important now that I inform you that you have a fundamental right

23     before this Tribunal to remain silent in these proceedings.  And if you

24     choose to remain silent, it will not be held against you.

25             Is that understood?

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 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let me now first have the appearances.

 3             Prosecution first.

 4             MR. BRAMMERTZ:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  On behalf of the

 5     Prosecutor, Serge Brammertz; I'm with my senior trial attorney,

 6     Alan Tieger; and Iain Reid, case manager.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Brammertz.

 8             Mr. Karadzic, I see that you are alone -- at least I do not see

 9     counsel assisting or representing you at this moment.  Is it your choice

10     not to be represented by counsel at this Initial Appearance?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an invisible advisor, but

12     I've decided to represent myself.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, during this Initial Appearance.  Yes.

14             You were informed that apart from your invisible counsel that

15     duty counsel can be assigned if you need one.  You were informed about

16     that, right?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I waived that right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  Thank you.

19             Mr. Karadzic, this brings us to the point of the indictment

20     against you, and I think it's appropriate that I give a brief procedural

21     history first.  You were included in an initial indictment with case

22     number IT-95-5, which was filed by the Office of the Prosecution on the

23     24th of July, 1995, and confirmed on the 25th of July, 1995.  A

24     subsequent indictment with case number IT-95-18 was filed on the 14th of

25     November, 1995, and confirmed on the 16th of November, 1995.

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 1             On the 11th of July, 1996, a review of the indictment under Rule

 2     61 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence took place.  Subsequently, the

 3     Prosecutor submitted an amended indictment on the 24th of May, 2000,

 4     under the case number IT-95-5/18, which consolidated the initial and

 5     subsequent indictments, reducing the charges to the most serious counts.

 6     This amended indictment was confirmed on the 31st of May, 2000, and

 7     remained under seal until it was made public on the 11th of October,

 8     2002.  It is the current operative indictment in this case against you.

 9             As a result of this indictment, you were arrested on Monday, the

10     21st of July, 2008, in Belgrade, Serbia; and subsequently you were

11     transferred to the seat of this Tribunal on the 30th of July, 2008.

12             The indictment states that you were born on the 19th of June,

13     1945, in the municipality of Savnik in the Republic of Montenegro, which

14     was then a part of Yugoslavia.  According to the Prosecution, you were a

15     founding member of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     also called SDS, and you held various high offices in the government of

17     the entity known as the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18             For example, it is alleged that between the 17th of December,

19     1992, and the 19th July, 1996, you were sole president of the

20     Republika Srpska.  The Prosecution further alleges that in these

21     positions you had power and control over Bosnian Serb forces, including

22     military, paramilitary, and police units, as well as all SDS and

23     government authorities including Crisis Staffs, War Presidencies, and War

24     Commissions that participated in the crimes alleged in the indictment.

25             The indictment alleges that between the 1st of July, 1991, and

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 1     the 30th of November, 1995, you, acting individually or in concert with

 2     other Bosnian Serb officials, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or

 3     otherwise aided and abetted a course of conduct which included

 4     persecution and terror tactics to force non-Serbs out of certain areas in

 5     Bosnia and Herzegovina that had been proclaimed part of the Serbian

 6     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  These included the municipalities of

 7     Bijeljina, Bratunac, Foca, Prijedor, and Zvornik.  It is alleged that

 8     many of those non-Serbs who would not flee in reaction to these tactics

 9     were either forcibly deported or killed.

10             The indictment lists in excess of a dozen instances on which

11     scores of civilians were killed during and after the attacks on the

12     targeted areas.  The indictment also lists numerous detention camps where

13     non-Serbs were taken.  These included camps in various municipalities

14     such as the Manjaca camp in Banja Luka, the Luka camp in Brcko, the KP

15     Dom in Foca, and the Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje camps in Prijedor.

16             According to the indictment, thousands of non-Serbs were forcibly

17     transferred or deported from the targeted areas and non-Serbs in the

18     targeted areas were denied fundamental rights such as the right to work,

19     freedom of movement, access to judicial process, and equal access to

20     medical care.  The indictment further alleges the wanton destruction of

21     non-Serb property, including religious institutions.

22             The indictment goes on to allege that Bosnian Serb forces

23     massacred thousands of civilians in and around the enclave of Srebrenica

24     in July 1995.  In particular, the indictment alleges that these forces

25     executed thousands of Bosnian Muslim men at the places where they were

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 1     detained shortly after they had been captured as well as at other sites

 2     to which they had been transported for execution.  The indictment further

 3     alleges that Bosnian Serb forces engaged in a campaign of terror

 4     including shelling and sniping against the civilian population of

 5     Sarajevo beginning in 1992.  According to the indictment, for 44 months

 6     Bosnian Serb forces surrounding Sarajevo implemented a military strategy

 7     that used shelling and sniping to kill, maim, wound, and terrorise the

 8     civilian inhabitants of Sarajevo.  It is alleged that thousands of

 9     civilians, including children and the elderly, were killed and wounded.

10             Mr. Karadzic, you are charged with one count of genocide under

11     Article 4 of the Statute of the International Tribunal, with one count of

12     complicity in genocide under Article 4 of the Statute, with five counts

13     of crimes against humanity under Article 5 of the Statute, and with four

14     counts of war crimes under Articles 2 and 3 of the Statute.

15             The indictment alleges that these crimes were committed during an

16     armed conflict and that the armed conflict was international in nature,

17     that the acts or omissions charged as crimes against humanity were part

18     of a widespread or systematic attack on the non-Serb civilian population

19     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that the acts or omissions charged as

20     genocide were committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part,

21     the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat ethnic groups.

22             Mr. Karadzic, you are charged with individual criminal

23     responsibility under Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal for

24     having planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and

25     abetted in the planning, preparation, or execution of the crimes alleged

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 1     in the indictment, acting individually or in concert with others between

 2     the 1st of July, 1991, and the 30th November 1995.  You're also charged

 3     with superior responsibility pursuant to Article 7(3) of the Statute of

 4     the Tribunal.  The indictment alleges that because of your position and

 5     power and the widespread nature of the events described in the indictment

 6     between the 1st of July, 1991, and the 30th of November, 1995, you knew

 7     or had reason to know that Bosnian Serb forces under your direction and

 8     control were committing these crimes and that you failed to take the

 9     necessary and reasonable steps to prevent these crimes or punish those

10     who committed them.

11             In addition, the indictment alleges that between the 1st of

12     December, 1995, and the 19th of July, 1996, you knew or had reason to

13     know that Bosnian Serb forces under your direction and control had

14     committed these crimes but that you failed to punish them.

15             That is a summary of the indictment against you, and it is a

16     summary only.  In a few minutes I will ask you if you would like the

17     indictment to be read in its entirety to you.

18             Mr. Karadzic, on the 22nd of July, 2008, the President of this

19     Tribunal assigned this case to Trial Chamber I.  On the 30th of July,

20     2008, as Presiding Judge of Trial Chamber I, I designate myself as Judge

21     for this Initial Appearance.  The Initial Appearance is governed by Rule

22     62 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence and involves my informing you

23     of the charges against you and asking for you -- for your entry of a

24     plea.  But prior to this, I have a few additional identifying questions

25     for you.

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 1             Mr. Karadzic, would you please state your full name for the

 2     record.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Radovan Karadzic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mr. Karadzic, could you state the date and

 5     place of your birth.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 19 June 1945, village Petrinica,

 7     near Savnik in Montenegro.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, I'm going to ask you now for your most recent

10     address at which you resided prior to your arrival at the seat of the

11     Tribunal.  You may inform me in open session, open or public session, but

12     if you prefer to inform me in private session, we'll go into private

13     session.  Private session means that only the persons inside this

14     courtroom and the immediate audio/visual and interpreters' booths would

15     hear what you say, thereby excluding the public.

16             Would you like to answer my question about your most recent

17     address in private session or would you prefer to do it in public

18     session?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In public session.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could you please answer the question at what

21     address you resided before you arrived at this Tribunal?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My official address is my family

23     house, that is the house of my wife at Pale, Krivaca in Pale, Republika

24     Srpska.  But if you're asking me about my unofficial address, the one I

25     had under my other identity, it was in Belgrade, Jurija Gagarina Street,

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 1     number 267.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Karadzic, I also would have some questions regarding your

 4     family and the embassy of the country of which you are a national.  First

 5     of all, is your family informed about your transfer to and your detention

 6     in the United Nations Detention Unit at this Tribunal in The Hague?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course we do not go into the details of your

 9     family members.  Is there anyone you would like the Registry, in addition

10     to those who are informed already, to be notified by the Registry about

11     your presence in The Hague and your detention here?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't believe there is anyone who

13     doesn't know that I'm in the Detention Unit.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Nevertheless, I have to put the next question

15     to you as well, whether the embassy of the country of which you are a

16     national is informed about your detention in The Hague.  This may look

17     like formalities, but we have to go through them.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I consider myself to be a national

19     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Republika Srpska, Montenegro, and Serbia.  I

20     have met the ambassador of Montenegro at the airport as well as the

21     ambassador of Serbia, but no one has been to see me from Montenegro yet.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you said that you have met the ambassador of

23     Montenegro at the airport, but no one has --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina is the last thing.

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 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There was a slight mistake in interpretation.  That

 2     doesn't happen that often, but it now and then happens.

 3             I do understand that you have spoken to -- let me see -- no one

 4     from Montenegro has seen you yet and you've spoken with the

 5     representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia; is that correctly

 6     understood?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've talked to the representative

 8     of Serbia and I have only greeted the ambassador of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but at least that includes that he's aware of

11     your present situation.  Would you like the -- of course, I cannot at

12     this moment say anything about whether you are a Montenegrin national,

13     yes or no.  But if there would be any wish that the authorities would be

14     informed by the Registry, please let me know so that we can take care of

15     that.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if they don't know I'm here

17     somebody should inform them, but for the time being I don't need their

18     diplomatic representative.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record then.

20             Mr. Karadzic, one of my obligations as a Judge for this Initial

21     Appearance is to satisfy myself that your rights are respected.  Articles

22     20 and 21 of the Statute of the Tribunal address the commencement and

23     conduct of trial proceedings and the rights of an accused.

24             I will ask the registrar to read to you the full text of these

25     two articles.

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 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Article 20:  Commencement and conduct of trial

 2     proceedings.

 3             "The Trial Chamber shall ensure that a trial is fair and

 4     expeditious and that the proceedings are conducted in accordance with the

 5     Rules of Procedure and Evidence with full respect for the rights of the

 6     accused and due regard for the protection of victims and witnesses.  A

 7     person against whom an indictment has been confirmed shall, pursuant to

 8     an order or an arrest warrant of the International Tribunal, be taken

 9     into custody immediately informed of the charges against him, and

10     transferred to the International Tribunal.

11             "The Trial Chamber shall read the indictment, satisfy itself that

12     the rights of the accused are respected, confirm that the accused

13     understands the indictment, and instruct the accused to enter a plea.

14     The Trial Chamber shall then set the date for trial.  The hearings shall

15     be public unless the Trial Chamber decides to close the proceedings in

16     accordance with its Rules of Procedure and Evidence."

17             Article 21:  Rights of the Accused.

18             "1.  All persons shall be equal before the International

19     Tribunal.

20             "2.  In the determination of charges against him, the accused

21     shall be entitled to a fair and public hearing, subject to Article 22 of

22     the Statute.

23             "3.  The accused shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty

24     according to the provisions of the present Statute.

25             "4.  In the determination of any charge against the accused

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 1     pursuant to the present Statute, the accused shall be entitled to the

 2     following minimum guarantees, in full equality:

 3             "(a) to be informed promptly and in detail in a language which he

 4     understands of the nature and cause of the charge against him;

 5             "(b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of

 6     his defence and to communicate with counsel of his own choosing;

 7             "(c) to be tried without undue delay;

 8             "(d) to be tried in his presence, and to defend himself in person

 9     or through legal assistance of his own choosing; to be informed, if he

10     does not have legal assistance, of his right; and to have legal

11     assistance assigned to him, in any case where the interests of justice so

12     require, and without payment by him in any such case if he does not have

13     sufficient means to pay for it;

14             "(e) to examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and

15     to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under

16     the same conditions as witnesses against him;

17             "(f) to have the free assistance of an interpret if he cannot

18     understand or speak the language used in the International Tribunal;

19             "(g) not to be compelled to testify against himself or to confess

20     guilt."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

22             Mr. Karadzic, do you understand the importance of those rights

23     that were just read to you?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you wish me to explain in any further detail

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 1     these rights before we continue?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't think so.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll move on.

 4             Mr. Karadzic, I earlier have summarized the indictment in your

 5     case.  Let me first ask you whether you received a copy of the indictment

 6     in your own language?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you understand its contents?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm still studying it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, you have the right to have the

11     indictment read out to you in full here in open court.  Do you want to

12     exercise this right or do you want to waive this right?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not interested in having

14     someone else read the indictment to me.  I would rather receive the new

15     indictment that has been announced and sufficient time to study it, and

16     then have my Initial Appearance after that and enter my plea.  Even more

17     than that, I wish to inform you of the numerous irregularities having to

18     do with my appearance here --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, let's take matters one by one.  You

20     are talking about a new indictment which was announced.  I don't think

21     that the Chamber has yet received, Mr. Brammertz, a new indictment.

22             From what Mr. Karadzic tells us, can I take it that you're

23     preparing a new amended indictment?

24             MR. BRAMMERTZ:  [Microphone not activated]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please switch on your microphone.

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 1             MR. BRAMMERTZ:  Yes, Your Honour, we are indeed -- we indeed

 2     intend to amend the indictment.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I take it that will take place on

 4     relatively short notice then?

 5             MR. BRAMMERTZ:  Yes, indeed, we cannot yet give a date, but it

 6     will be as soon as possible.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber was not informed about a new indictment

 9     to be prepared, but on the basis of what you told us it's now confirmed

10     by the Prosecution that a new indictment will be submitted to the

11     Chamber.  And of course, the Prosecution is not free to amend the

12     indictment, they need the approval of the Chamber to have an indictment

13     amended; and that is a process in which you have an opportunity to

14     express your views on the amendment of the indictment as well, whether it

15     should be approved or not.  So we'll come to that at a later stage, and I

16     do understand that you rather focus on what will be the indictment soon

17     as at least as the Prosecution will submit it.

18             Then I go back to the operative indictment at this moment.  You

19     said, I'm not interested in having the operative indictment read to me,

20     I'd rather wait for the new one.  Pursuant to Rule 62(A)(iii) of the

21     Rules of Procedure and Evidence, you are hereby called upon to enter a

22     plea of guilty or not guilty on each count of the indictment either today

23     or within 30 days of this Initial Appearance.

24             I take it already a bit from your earlier answer that you might

25     be inclined not to enter a plea today, but you have 30 days.  If, of

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 1     course, the indictment will be amended, and if that would take place

 2     within 30 days, then we are in a new situation.  But if not yet the new

 3     amended indictment exists, then you'll be invited to enter a plea on the

 4     operative indictment.  And if then the indictment will be changed, then

 5     first of all you'll be given an opportunity to make submissions on the

 6     proposed new indictment.  And if such a new indictment would be approved

 7     by the Chamber and if it contains new charges, then of course you'll get

 8     another opportunity to enter a plea on the new indictment to the extent

 9     the charges are not the same.

10             Is that clear to you, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied with your

12     understanding of my position.  It's clear to me.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then your position, as then I repeat that,

14     you prefer not to enter a plea today and to see what happens in the next

15     30 days.  And then you might be either invited to enter a plea on the

16     operative indictment or if there is a new amended indictment already on

17     that new amended indictment.

18             Then we have to schedule anyhow a new hearing within the next 30

19     days.  Whether or not the indictment will be amended meanwhile or not,

20     but we'll have a second Initial Appearance then within 30 days.  Now, if

21     I count 30 days from now on, I think we end up on a Saturday.  We can do

22     two things to schedule the new Initial Appearance, on the Friday, that is

23     the 29th day, or to postpone it until the 1st of September, which would

24     be a little bit more than 30 days.

25             Do you have any problems in having the next Initial Appearance

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 1     scheduled for the 29th of August?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not the 28th of August,

 3     then I have no objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll come to that, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             Mr. Karadzic, I mentioned earlier the assignment of this case by

 6     the President to Trial Chamber I, and as a Presiding Judge of this

 7     Trial Chamber, I have designated myself as Pre-Trial Judge in your case

 8     by an order dated the 30th of July, 2008.  The Trial Chamber will be

 9     composed by myself, Judge Christine Van Den Wyngaert, and Judge Bakone

10     Justice Moloto.

11             We earlier briefly discussed the appearance in which you'll be --

12     of which you should enter a plea, and you said if it's not the 28th, it's

13     fine with me.  I hereby schedule a further appearance on Friday, the 29th

14     of August, at a quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

15             Mr. Karadzic, by an order issued on the 30th of July, 2008,

16     you'll remain in custody at the United Nations Detention Unit pending

17     trial; however, you may file an application for provisional release

18     pursuant to Rule 65 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

19             I earlier mentioned to you in the beginning of these proceedings

20     that you have a fundamental right before the Tribunal to remain silent in

21     these proceedings and that it will not be held against you.  I now wish

22     to have Rule 63 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence read to you, as it

23     concerns the topic of questioning of an accused.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Rule 63, Questioning of Accused.

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 1             "(A) Questioning by the Prosecutor of an accused, including after

 2     the Initial Appearance, shall not proceed without the presence of counsel

 3     unless the accused has voluntarily and expressly agreed to proceed

 4     without counsel present.  If the accused subsequently expresses a desire

 5     to have counsel, questioning shall thereupon cease, and shall only resume

 6     when the accused's counsel is present.

 7             "(B) The questioning, including any waiver of the right to

 8     counsel, shall be audio-recorded or video-recorded in accordance with the

 9     procedure provided for in Rule 43.  The Prosecutor shall at the beginning

10     of the questioning caution the accused in accordance with Rule

11     42(A)(iii)."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             I would now like to address the Prosecution.  I'd like to remind

14     you that pursuant to Rule 66(A)(i) the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

15     that within 30 days of the Initial Appearance of the accused that you

16     shall make available to the Defence in a language which the accused

17     understands all the supporting materials which accompanied the indictment

18     when confirmation was sought.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution of course is

20     aware of its obligations under Rule 66(A)(i) and anticipate the

21     disclosure pursuant to that Rule will be made tomorrow or shortly

22     thereafter.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24             Mr. Karadzic, I'd like to remind you that the Defence, pursuant

25     to Rule 72(A) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal,

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 1     that you'll have a 30-day period for filing any preliminary motions once

 2     you have received all the supporting material in accordance with Rule 66

 3     of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal.

 4             Then, Mr. Brammertz or Mr. Tieger, is there any matter that the

 5     Prosecution would like to raise at this stage?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.  Perhaps by way of

 7     clarification, as the Prosecutor indicated, we are reviewing the

 8     operative indictment to ensure, among other things, that it reflects the

 9     jurisprudence since the time of the current indictment, since the time it

10     was drafted and filed.  We will endeavour, as the Prosecutor indicated,

11     to move forward as quickly as possible.  I anticipate that certainly by

12     the date of the next hearing, if -- we'll be able to provide the Court

13     with a concrete anticipated date for the filing of any amended

14     indictment.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. TIEGER:  In the meantime, the provisions of this indictment,

17     as the Court indicated in noting that a -- that an amended indictment may

18     not reflect new charges, is of great utility in identifying the

19     anticipated charges against the accused.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll see how to proceed, Mr. Karadzic,

21     Mr. Tieger.  At this moment we're working on the basis of the operative

22     indictment.  If a new indictment will be proposed by the Prosecution or

23     if amendments will be proposed by the Prosecution, then we'll first

24     follow the proper procedure to see whether there will be an amended

25     indictment or whether it stays as it is now.

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 1             Mr. Karadzic --

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is there any -- yes, Mr. Tieger --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

 5             I was wondering if the Court might consider issuing a standard

 6     disclosure order in relation to the materials that will be disclosed.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and disclosure will take place tomorrow or the

 8     day after tomorrow, that's what you said?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  That's our expectation.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take care that if such an order will be

11     issued that it will be there in time.  So if we would decide to give such

12     an order, it would be -- most likely be filed tomorrow.

13             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Or you would like it orally done at this moment?

15             MR. TIEGER:  As the Court wishes, Your Honour, that's fine.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's -- let me just confer one second.

17                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

18             MR. TIEGER:  And --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'll not give an oral order at this moment, but

20     we'll take care that it's -- that it will be filed in time, if there is

21     one.

22             MR. TIEGER:  And I didn't know if the Court wished to defer or

23     address at this time any issues related to self representation, including

24     the risks of self representation in complex cases and other matters

25     related to self representation.

Page 19

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Self representation is an issue which might need a

 2     lot of attention in the near future.  As far as I understand, no notice

 3     has yet been given by Mr. Karadzic to the Registrar that he wants to

 4     defend himself in the whole of the proceedings.  Of course, if he would

 5     file such a notice then we'll pay proper attention to what it means, what

 6     it takes to represent yourself, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             I could give already a few key words for that, and -- but we are

 8     not there yet because until now you said you did not want to be assisted

 9     or represented by counsel during this Initial Appearance.  Let me just

10     find the key words.

11                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If we are talking about self representation and

13     still there has not been filed any notice at this moment, but the right

14     to self representation is a qualified right but not an absolute right.

15     That right may be restricted under certain circumstances.

16             If an accused would elect to represent himself, then he also

17     should accept responsibility for disadvantages which result from self

18     representation in the absence of qualified counsel.  An accused who

19     represents himself is not given special treatment.

20             Further, there is no provision for legal aid to be given to a

21     self-represented accused.  Some funding may be allowed for assistance by

22     legal associates who fulfil the necessary requirements under the Rules of

23     Procedure and Evidence, but the right to privileged access to such legal

24     associates cannot be guaranteed.  These and other related matters such as

25     communication and translation facilitates for self representation should

Page 20

 1     be further discussed by the Registrar.

 2             Rule 45(F) requires someone who elects to represent himself to

 3     notify the Registrar in writing as soon as possible.  Perhaps this is all

 4     premature, Mr. Karadzic.  We only established that you are not assisted

 5     by counsel or represented by counsel during this Initial Appearance.

 6     We'll see what the future brings.

 7             Mr. Karadzic, is there anything you would like to raise which

 8     would be appropriate to be raised in this Initial Appearance, and that is

 9     not the substance of the case, not preliminary defences yet.  We'll find

10     time to spend time on whatever you'll submit in the near future.  Is

11     there anything you would like to raise at this moment?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  First of all, I wish to say

13     that I thought it was understood that I intend to represent myself, not

14     only during my Initial Appearance but throughout the trial.  Regardless

15     of what I think about this institution, with all due respect to you

16     personally, I will defend myself before this institution as I would

17     defend myself before any natural catastrophe, to which I also deny the

18     right to attack me.  I wish to draw attention to the fact that you have

19     been misinformed about the date of my arrest, and also to inform you of

20     the numerous irregularities concerning my relation to this institution

21     and my appearance here.  This does not refer to the merits of the case,

22     but exclusively to procedural irregularities in my arrival here, by your

23     leave.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, most of what you just told me -- first

25     of all, that you wish to represent yourself, I already informed you about

Page 21

 1     the requirement under Rule 45(F).  So if you want to represent yourself

 2     after due consideration whether that would be the best solution, then you

 3     have to -- as being self represented, you have to notify the Registrar in

 4     accordance with Rule 45(F).

 5             Now, as far as irregularities are concerned, the legal meaning of

 6     pointing at irregularities could be many-fold.  It could be that you

 7     challenge the rightfulness of your detention here, that you challenge the

 8     exercise of our jurisdiction in this court, it could mean a lot of

 9     things.  And even if it does not go to the substance of the case, even

10     formal matters which arise from the kind of issues you raised, of course

11     they'll -- can be dealt with, for example, in the preliminary motions

12     which I mentioned earlier.

13             So if you want these matters to be given proper attention, you

14     should include them in submissions to be made to the Chamber; and then

15     depending on what your submissions are aiming for, we would have -- in a

16     public hearing we should deal with these matters.  If you file

17     submissions, these will be public documents.  So if there were any

18     irregularities of whatever kind, then you are invited to include them in

19     any submissions, either in preliminary motions or other motions, so that

20     the Chamber can read them and that we will consider them, if need be,

21     after having heard the Prosecution and yourself, whether or not in

22     writing or in a public hearing.

23             Is that clear to you?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but this is not about

25     challenging the Tribunal or except in a certain segment the proceedings

Page 22

 1     of the OTP; rather, it has to do with the way I have been brought here.

 2     If you will allow me to explain it, then it will become quite clear what

 3     my attitude toward this institution has been from the moment the

 4     indictment was filed against me to this day.  I will be very brief.  I

 5     have only four pages to read out, but I think it would be fair to allow

 6     me to point out all the things that have happened concerning my being

 7     brought here.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not mind if you would briefly mention the

 9     issues, but I would prefer, since we are here in Initial Appearance and

10     not in an ordinary session with the Chamber - I'm here alone, not with my

11     colleagues - that you would make submissions in writing on the matters.

12     But I have no problem if, for example, in two minutes you would briefly

13     tell us what you want to submit to the Chamber.  But I then certainly not

14     invite you to read a four-page document, but just to -- just briefly

15     indicate what the issues are you want to raise, and I would limit you to

16     briefly mention them in two minutes.

17             Please proceed.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It will be very difficult to do it

19     in two minutes, but I'll try.  I'll skip over all the introductory part,

20     and I will say that in 1996 my plenipotentiary representatives, statesmen

21     and ministers, were presented with an offer on behalf of

22     Mr. Richard Holbrooke on behalf of the United States of America,

23     according to which I had to withdraw from public life, I had to make

24     certain gestures, and in return, the USA would fulfil their commitments.

25     This was on behalf of the United States of America.  Mr. Holbrooke didn't

Page 23

 1     say that on his own behalf because when I mentioned to him my meetings

 2     with President Carter, he told me that he represented President Carter,

 3     but he was at that moment working for President Clinton.  My commitment

 4     was to withdraw and not endanger in any way the implementation of the

 5     Dayton Agreement to withdraw even from literary life and any form of

 6     public life --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, apparently you want to bring to the

 8     attention of this Chamber that some agreements apparently between persons

 9     attached to states were made.  Of course the Chamber is not aware of any

10     such agreements.  If you want to raise this issue, then of course it

11     would be important for us to then have the full facts and evidence on

12     those facts so that we can consider the matter.  And also it would be

13     important then to explain to the Chamber what consequences this should

14     have in your view for the work of this Tribunal.

15             We're looking forward to receiving such submissions and then

16     we'll see in which context they might best be understood as a challenge

17     to the exercise of the jurisdiction or what other context would be

18     appropriate.

19             Is there another matter you would like to raise?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this is very

21     important for my fate and for my legal position, because here I'm not

22     calling into question the court.  I want to show why I'm appearing before

23     this court only now rather than in 1996, 1997, or 1998, when I had the

24     intention of appearing here but at that time I was in danger of being

25     liquidated because I had made a deal that although Mr. Holbrooke tried to

Page 24

 1     honour, Mr. William Stabner [phoen] testified that attempts were made to

 2     persuade the chief Prosecutor to withdraw the indictment, but

 3     Richard Goldstone threatened to resign if that was done.  So I -- there

 4     was an intention to liquidate me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, you've started by saying:  "I believe

 6     that this is very important ..."

 7             I'm not denying at this moment that this may be a very important

 8     issue for you, although it is not a matter to be raised during the

 9     Initial Appearance.  I do understand that you consider these backgrounds

10     to be explanatory for your appearance here only today.  You'll get ample

11     opportunity to explain this to the Chamber.

12             Is there any other matter you would like to raise?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In that case, if I am restricted in

14     this way, I wish to say that in Belgrade I was arrested irregularly

15     again.  For three days I was kidnapped by civilians whose identity I

16     ignored.  I was kept in a place that I also ignored.  My rights were not

17     told me.  I had no right for a telephone -- to a telephone call or even a

18     text message to my friends, lest they search for me in hospitals and

19     morgues.  And only after three days I was turned over to the special

20     court, after which all the proceedings that followed were regular.

21             Similarly, there had been many irregularities even before that

22     but one of the latest ones is the issue of the latest statements of the

23     chief Prosecutor, wherein he promised great speed and that worries me.

24     Does the Prosecutor have a privileged position before the Trial Chamber

25     or maybe he had made a deal behind the back of the Defence with the

Page 25

 1     Trial Chamber --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Court provided Mr. Karadzic

 4     with an opportunity to foreshadow the motions and invited him to make if

 5     he saw fit.  If he chooses to represent himself, he has to comply with

 6     the rules and the procedures of this institution.  The Court has advised

 7     him that this is not the moment to argue those motions.  The Court has

 8     indicated it does not wish to prevent him from making motions

 9     appropriately and pursuant to the proper procedures and when the right

10     opportunity presents itself, but as the Court indicated this is not the

11     time and place.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, I do understand that you want to raise

13     irregularities during your arrest in Belgrade, and if you make

14     submissions in that respect, the Chamber then of course can consider

15     whether this should have any consequences for the proceedings before this

16     Tribunal.  But again, Mr. Tieger is right, and I think I explained it to

17     you earlier, that these matters are best dealt with in motions and not

18     during an Initial Appearance which is primarily aiming at informing you

19     about your rights and about informing the Chamber on the pleas you want

20     to enter.  We have, of course, delayed that now with 30 days.

21             Is there any other matter you would like to raise?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must say that this is a matter of

23     life and death.  If Mr. Holbrooke still wants my death and regrets that

24     there is no death sentence here, I wonder if his arm is long enough to

25     reach me here.  That's one thing.  And the second thing is whether am

Page 26

 1     I --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, you either fully do not understand or

 3     you ignore my earlier instructions, that is, that you should raise these

 4     matters before the Chamber at an appropriate moment and the appropriate

 5     moment is not now.  This again does not deny the importance of the

 6     matters you would like to raise, but this is not a setting in which we

 7     can deal with the matters you apparently want to raise.

 8             Is there any other matter, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in that case, I will hand

10     over a submission right now, the paper with the text that I wanted to

11     present.  I have two concerns, I have a concern for my life and this

12     concern about the promised speed, speed matters in a showdown between

13     gun-slingers; but it's out of place in a court.  I wanted to have equity

14     of arms with the Prosecution, and I don't want to be put in a position

15     where a regular and fair trial is impossible.  I hope the Registry can

16     accept this document on four pages, and this is my filing.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber -- before making filings, Mr. Karadzic,

18     we'll follow the procedures.  It's -- in this court you do not just hand

19     over a piece of paper.  We will consider -- I will consider with my

20     colleagues whether or not the matters you would like to raise, whether we

21     can accept them in this way.  We'll let you know about that, so please

22     keep a copy for yourself and hand it over to us if we feel that this is a

23     procedural way in which we can accept submissions by you.

24             Mr. Karadzic, from your earlier words I noted that you have some

25     concerns about your safety and security.  Safety and security of an

Page 27

 1     accused in the Detention Unit is primarily the responsibility and the

 2     competence of the Registry.  This is not to say that the Chamber cannot

 3     have concerns about it, but safety and security concerns should be

 4     addressed primarily to the Registrar.  And almost, if not all of the

 5     decisions, taken by the Registrar in this respect are -- can be reviewed

 6     by the President of this Tribunal, not by the Trial Chamber, but by the

 7     President.

 8             So therefore, if safety and security concerns are bothering you

 9     at this moment, please address the Registrar, inform the Registrar about

10     your concerns, and perhaps start discussing with them what to undertake

11     in order to meet these concerns.

12             Is there any other matter, Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to know whom I should

14     approach with my concerns and anxieties regarding the irregularities in

15     this process.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if it is about irregularities which may have a

17     bearing on the proceedings, such as illegal arrest or these kind of

18     things, then you can make submissions to the Chamber.  If you want to

19     address matters of personal safety and security in the Detention Unit,

20     then you should address the Registrar.  And in the days to come, I take

21     it that there will be frequent contact anyhow with the representatives of

22     the Registry and then you can discuss with them what would be the most

23     effective way of bringing your concerns to their attention.  They'll come

24     and see you.

25             Any other matter, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 28

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Not for now.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Karadzic, then finally I'd like to ask you

 3     whether you have been treated well in -- since you arrived in The Hague,

 4     if there's any problem with the way in which you are treated?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no complaints against the

 6     treatment by official persons or the premises where I'm kept.  I've been

 7     in worse places, so everything is all right.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 9             Finally, I would like to ask you whether you have any health

10     concerns at this moment, and again you're free to ask me to address these

11     matters in private session if you would wish to do so.  Do you have any

12     health concerns; and if so, would you like to deal with them in private

13     session or in public session?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My health is perfect and there is

15     no need for a private session.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good to hear.

17             Mr. Karadzic, this concludes this Initial Appearance.

18             I hereby adjourn the proceedings until Friday, the 29th of

19     August, 2008, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon in this same courtroom.

20                           --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance

21                           adjourned at 5.12 p.m.