Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41

 1                           Wednesday, 17 September 2008

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 3.00 p.m.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, this is the case number

 7     IT-95-5/18-PT, the Prosecutor versus Radovan Karadzic.

 8             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

 9             Who appears for the Prosecution?

10             MR. TIEGER:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  Alan Tieger, Mark

11     Harmon, and case manager Iain Reid for the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

13             Mr. Karadzic, you appear again on your own I assume?

14             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm never alone, but I am here

17     alone.  I have my invisible advisors, but I'm a Gemini so there are two

18     of us anyway.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  We'll come back to that in a moment.  For the

20     avoidance of any doubt about why we're here, today's a Status Conference

21     held under Rule 65 bis of the rules of procedure of the Tribunal.  That

22     rule indicates that the Pre-Trial Judge should convene a

23     Status Conference within 120 days of your initial appearance.  Because of

24     the measure of uncertainty about how this case is proceeding, it seemed

25     to me appropriate to have a Status Conference much earlier than 120 days

Page 42

 1     after your first appearance so this date was fixed.

 2             The purpose of a Status Conference is to organize exchanges

 3     between the parties to ensure the expeditious preparation of the trial,

 4     and that includes reviewing the status of the case and allowing you to

 5     raise issues in relation to the case, including issues regarding your

 6     mental or physical condition.  Just -- as a very wide-ranging area that

 7     you may explore if appropriate in the course of this hearing.  However, I

 8     will raise a number of matters myself first of all which I think we ought

 9     to deal with, and the first of these is the question of your

10     representation.

11             Now, I'm not interested in the detail of any discussions you may

12     be having about how that might be organized, but I do want to ensure that

13     you understand the implications of conducting your own defence in court.

14     There is precedent in this Tribunal for an accused person to participate

15     actively in the presentation of his own defence, even where he has

16     counsel also actively conducting the case in conjunction with him.  Now,

17     it's for the Trial Chamber - and in this case I think it would be for the

18     Chamber in the pre-trial phase - to consider and approve appropriate

19     arrangements for individual cases.  So there is no absolute choice,

20     simple, absolute choice, between being there on your own, trying to do

21     everything in court on your own, and being represented in court by

22     someone else and having to remain silent; there are other options.

23             Now, has that already been explained to you?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it has.  Thank you.  For the

25     moment - and I think to the end - I will waive that right, but may I

Page 43

 1     first thank you for that explanation because one point I thought that

 2     scheduling a Status Conference so early on might be the result of

 3     endeavours on the part of the Prosecution to get through these

 4     proceedings very quickly, which I will not allow.

 5             So for the moment, and I do believe that this will be my position

 6     to the end, I will defend myself, and I hope the Registry will enable me

 7     to set up a good team to help me.  If that is not the case, then I won't

 8     have a team at all because I cannot allow such a major trial - you've

 9     never had a trial like this and never will have - but this be an

10     opportunity to just make it look like a fair trial and just as a human

11     being cannot be half girl/half mermaid or half fish, this either has to

12     be a fair trial or no trial at all.

13             So I have to hold the reins of my defence in my hands, first of

14     all, to determine the truth, the truth about our conflict, to determine

15     the truth as I say, and then to defend myself in the second place.  I'm

16     not defending myself in actual fact.  What I am defending are the people

17     over there who have suffered.

18             I'm defending other people, the heads of other states, the

19     civilian heads of other states, which will be at the forefront of the

20     onslaught of this alliance after this exception of taking to trial a head

21     of state.  It will of course be a precedent for small nations, small

22     countries, not large ones.  So I cannot leave my defence to anybody else,

23     I must keep my defence in my own hands; and I would not be able to

24     dismiss counsel, defence counsel, in any later stage unless you agree to

25     that if that situation ever arose.

Page 44

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Obviously the decision in the end of the day is

 2     yours, but bearing in mind the important constituents you say you

 3     represent, peoples and nations, no doubt you will bear in mind the

 4     responsibility of ensuring that these constituent interests have the best

 5     possible defence.  And I simply urge you from years of experience to

 6     consider whether sitting here in court, preparing out of court on your

 7     own to present that defence is the right and best way to do it.  I urge

 8     you to give that a great deal of thought in the days and weeks that

 9     follow, in the hope that you will realize that there are better ways of

10     representing your case than presenting it in isolation on your own.

11             Anyway, I'm satisfied that you have a clear understanding of what

12     facilities are available to you and that the decision is one for you to

13     make.

14             I now want to deal with the various documents, motions, notices,

15     whatever that are in the wind at the moment that might be said to be

16     before the Chamber.  There is an issue over the language in which

17     material is provided to you, and you triggered the Trial Chamber's

18     attention to that by submitting what you called an appeal against the

19     Registry decision to provide transcripts in the English language only

20     accompanied by the audio recordings of the proceedings in court.

21             The Chamber has at the moment before it - and that's myself and

22     my two colleagues - that submission and a response which came from the

23     Prosecution and also an indication of the Registry position.  So the

24     Chamber, the three Judges, are now in a position where they can consider

25     the issues that are focused in these documents, and we will make a

Page 45

 1     decision on that.  I expect -- I never guarantee when these decisions

 2     will come out.  I can only give you an indication because I'm sure you're

 3     anxious to know the situation, and indeed it makes a difference to how

 4     this case will proceed.  I expect that decision to be in your hands

 5     sometime next week, and then we will know exactly where we stand on how

 6     documents have to be handled.

 7             There's not just a question of the Registry giving you documents.

 8     The most important documents, I suspect, will be those that come to you

 9     from the Prosecution; and therefore, the issue obviously affects them as

10     well.

11             The other matter which was before us the last time and remains

12     outstanding is the various submissions you've made relating to what you

13     claim is an immunity agreement made with Richard Holbrooke.  There are

14     three documents from you, 1st of August, 6th of August, and 26th of

15     August setting out your position.  It actually goes further than that

16     because not only do you claim immunity based on that, but you suggest

17     that there's a plan to endanger you and that you're being subjected to

18     intimidation by public statements made by various international and

19     Tribunal officials.  And you've also raised what you refer to as

20     irregularities concerning fair trial opportunities you wish the

21     Trial Chamber to consider.  The Prosecution have also made submissions on

22     this.

23             As I said to you before, the Chamber's actively considering that.

24     That is also now ripe for decision, and we will look at that as a

25     Trial Chamber of three Judges and determine whether we can actually make

Page 46

 1     a decision on it at this stage, whether this is the time to do so, what,

 2     if any, other procedure may be involved; and we will give a response to

 3     that.  That may not come from the Chamber as quickly as the indication I

 4     gave to you about the issue over language, but you can rest assured it is

 5     a matter to which we are already giving active consideration.

 6             Now, my understanding is that these are all the matters that you

 7     have raised in writing with the Chamber.  Am I correct in that or is

 8     there any other matter that has been raised and that I have overlooked?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are mostly correct, but I'd

10     first of all like to ask whether we're in private session or not?

11             JUDGE BONOMY:  No, we're in open session at the moment.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Secondly, allow me just briefly to

13     say something about the previous question with respect to my defence.

14     Nobody who were to appear in this courtroom can know the facts as well as

15     I do.  Now, as far as legal matters are concerned and the legal

16     proceedings, I was told that the Trial Chamber -- I could expect the

17     Trial Chamber to protect my rights.  So I will rely on that, and if the

18     Registry allows me to set up a team, the kind of team that I'd like to

19     have, if they provide the necessary resources then I do believe that I'll

20     have the necessary advice and legal knowledge, and I'll always ask that

21     my advisors or associates or at least one of them be present in the

22     courtroom so that he can follow the proceedings and the transcript and to

23     assist me by making suggestions to me, as is the case in my own system,

24     in the system of my country, and in the American system indeed.  So I'm

25     not actually thinking about taking on a Defence counsel.

Page 47

 1             Now, as far as language is concerned --

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  Let me interrupt you there so that we don't get

 3     confused on issues.  My understanding of the rules in your own country is

 4     that if you were facing a charge as serious as this one, you would be

 5     obliged to be legally represented in court.  Have I got that wrong?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think you've got that

 7     wrong, but our system is such that in our legal system, the accused has

 8     the right to conduct an examination, to give statements, to comment, to

 9     cross-examine witnesses, and to dismiss his counsel if he should be

10     dissatisfied with him, whereas I would not have that right here unless

11     you agreed with me, I wouldn't have the right to dismiss counsel and the

12     res rea, and I'm not ready to be a thing here, an object.  I'm not

13     prepared to be passive and to have other people decide on matters that

14     concern me.

15             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

16             And you wanted to go on to deal with the language issue?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  That's right.

18             Can you hear me?  It's like this, the Prosecution hasn't

19     challenged the right for me to use my own language, and that is a right

20     that all other documents dealing with human rights accord as well.  But

21     they are saying that this Tribunal does not have the necessary resources,

22     that they're poor in resources.

23             Now, if they are poor in resources for such a large trial, then

24     the question arises as to whether the shop can go on working because

25     whenever there's a lack of funds, a lack of money, shops close down.  On

Page 48

 1     the other hand, the Prosecution has agreed that it would be more

 2     practical for me to have transcripts provided in my own language.  But

 3     what they say is that this would not be acceptable from the aspects of

 4     fairness.  I don't understand that.  Why wouldn't it be fair for me to

 5     have the transcript with all the nuances of language so that I could

 6     understand it completely in all its shades of meaning?

 7             Now, following the proceedings at this Tribunal, I was able to

 8     see that shades of meaning can completely change the meaning of a

 9     sentence that has been interpreted or translated.  So it is of vast

10     importance, and if they consider it -- if this were to be unfair towards

11     cases that have already been held here, now to go on with a practice that

12     has proved a bad practice would be much worse than putting that practice

13     right along the way.  Of course, I don't know what you mean by B/H/S,

14     it's a bastardized form of a language.  My language is the Serbian

15     language.  It is my property, spiritual property, the intellectual

16     property of the Serbian people, their intellectual right; anybody can use

17     it but nobody can appropriate it or change its name as they see fit.  Now

18     as far as the Cyrillic script is concerned, that's something that we've

19     used in my family, and so I like to use that script.

20             Now, as for the response given by the Registry, the Registry in

21     that response says that we would defer the process by going into this --

22     all these matters and providing all the resources because they say that

23     the translation of transcripts would take a long time, it would require

24     one month for just one transcript.  But I think that I would take more

25     time in listening to the transcript rather than reading through it in

Page 49

 1     translation, and I'm sure that many more people can transcribe a

 2     transcript from the audio-tape and that this would be a much faster

 3     process, whereas I have to look through the whole material.

 4             So I think that the Prosecution and the Registry is fully

 5     conscious of the fact that if I were to accept just an audio version, I

 6     would not be prepared for trial because if they needed the amount of time

 7     they needed to listen to all the tapes and go through them all, I would

 8     need much more time.  So this brings me to a situation where I am unable

 9     to prepare a good defence case because I would not have the necessary

10     preparations.  So here we have the request and desire of the Prosecution

11     on the one hand, to get through the proceedings and trial as quickly as

12     possible at the expense of a fair and just trial that is in their favour

13     and not mine.

14             I think you'll remember, and I'm sure you can find this in some

15     of the recordings, that the translations and interpretations in several

16     cases proved very important for the sense of a sentence, very vital

17     sentences in the transcript and in any given proceedings or in any given

18     trial.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.  I think all these points

20     are already reflected in the written submissions which have been made,

21     but again I will ensure that my colleagues have the opportunity to read

22     what you've said to supplement your earlier submissions.

23             One thing you might reflect upon when you're thinking further of

24     language is that the official languages of the Tribunal are English and

25     French, that people like myself who have not have the advantage of an

Page 50

 1     education in the Serbian language have to do our best with the English

 2     version of events translated, that we rely on high standards of

 3     interpretation and translation in this Tribunal; we identify areas where

 4     we may be concerned about the way in which material is translated, we

 5     regularly and -- and if you have a look at some of the transcripts of the

 6     case over which I continue to preside you will see many instances where

 7     we invite the translation department to review what has occurred and to

 8     revise the translation if appropriate.  And we allow counsel to draw

 9     issues of that nature to our attention.  And I think you may also find

10     that where an accused person who speaks the Serbian language is

11     represented by counsel who are either bilingual or one of whom speaks the

12     languages of the Tribunal and the other speaks Serbian that they get the

13     best of all worlds that way and ensure that any injustices are avoided.

14     However, these, you can rest assured, are factors we will take account of

15     in coming to a determination of this issue; and we bear in mind also what

16     you've said about the Cyrillic script.

17             I want to turn to the Prosecution at this stage because we've

18     exhausted the motions that come at your instance --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, not by far.  We haven't

20     exhausted -- I haven't touched upon the question of immunity at all.

21     Then there's the question of how I was arrested and the conduct of the

22     Prosecution.  I have criticisms and complaints to make there too.

23             JUDGE BONOMY:  You have made your written submissions on these,

24     and we are in a position to address these and will address them; and a

25     full decision will be issued in relation to these matters.

Page 51

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have something to say with

 2     respect to the Cyrillic script.  It is mostly Serbs that are being tried

 3     here, so how come the Tribunal and Trial Chambers have opted for the

 4     Latin script?  That's one that needs to be considered.  The other thing

 5     is this:  Regardless of the fact that I'm taking part at this

 6     Status Conference, I have not given up on my right to deal with the issue

 7     of how my case has been assigned to this Trial Chamber or how it was

 8     assigned to Trial Chamber I in the first place.  And I have serious

 9     complaints about ex parte communication before the Prosecution and the

10     Tribunal.  I sent a letter to Mr. Pocar, the President of the Tribunal,

11     asking him to send me all the material and documents --

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Just a moment.  I am here to deal with what has

13     been assigned to me.  Now, if you've a question or an issue that I can

14     deal with, then I will address it.  But if you're communicating,

15     independently of me, with the President, that's not a matter I can enter

16     into or be any -- be involved in.  I'm not in a position to do it.  And

17     please don't use this Court as a platform for raising issues that don't

18     relate to the matters that are before us here.  I think I will give you a

19     great deal of scope to explain your position in relation to matters that

20     I am competent to deal with, but let's not stray beyond that into areas

21     which are not for me just so that you can perhaps make some public

22     statement or other.  You know that issues between you and the President

23     are not matters for me.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that that went through

25     you, as is the case in my country's system, it all goes through the

Page 52

 1     existing Trial Chamber.  But anyway, I retain the right --

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  I have a copy of it because you sent a copy to the

 3     Trial Chamber, but it's not a communication for my attention or one to

 4     which I have given any consideration, nor is it one on which you should

 5     address me.  You have dealt with it separately via the President and that

 6     will be dealt with by him, I am certain.  If there are matters that I can

 7     address, then please turn your attention to those.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then I retain the right

 9     to raise the question once again before the Trial Chamber at a later

10     date, in due course.  And I have something to say with respect to the

11     question of immunity as well --

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, I suspect that what you've raised will be

13     dealt with in a quite different way.  It won't ever be a matter I think

14     for the Trial Chamber to deal with, but there will be other methods by

15     which it can be addressed depending on the response that is issued

16     following your letter.  But don't assume that it's for this Trial Chamber

17     at any stage to deal with the question of how a case was assigned to it.

18     That's really for a higher authority.

19             So please continue with other matters that you consider relevant.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At my initial appearance I

21     complained about the ex parte position between the Prosecution and the

22     Trial Chamber, so I'll leave that aside now.

23             Now, as for the question of immunity, I would like to ask that

24     this Trial Chamber not make a ruling on that subject because I have

25     initiated an investigation because Mr. Holbrooke wasn't speaking only in

Page 53

 1     the name of America, but it was agreed upon by all the members of the

 2     Security Council.  So he was speaking on behalf of the Contact Group as

 3     well.  So it was an agreement that he made with me together with the

 4     agreement of the Contact Group, and it has been a source of great

 5     suffering, my family's suffering, the suffering of my friends, Republika

 6     Srpska, and Serbia as well.

 7             There was enormous pressure exerted over there to Gestapo levels,

 8     so I do have the right to raise the question, to investigate it.  The

 9     investigation will not be completed until I'm given a team of people to

10     assist me, but at any rate I cannot leave things there because it wasn't

11     a private conversation and agreement between myself and Mr. Holbrooke or

12     myself and the United States alone.  It was all the permanent members of

13     the Security Council who are members of the Contact Group.  So that is a

14     question that we must deal with and I would like to ask the Trial Chamber

15     to refrain from ruling in the matter because there will be new evidence.

16     I have irrefutable evidence that NATO did try to liquidate me.  First of

17     all, that they didn't want to arrest me for a time and that was in

18     conformity with the agreement reached with Mr. Holbrooke and then later

19     on, afterwards, when the Prosecutor, main Prosecutor, Richard Goldstone,

20     refused to meet those demands, there was an attempt at liquidation; and

21     the great troubles that have resulted from that, my troubles and

22     suffering, my family's troubles and suffering, and friends, as well as

23     Republika Srpska and Serbia.  So please, would you wait before you make a

24     ruling, I would be grateful for that until I complete my investigation.

25             And then I would like to raise the issue of the indictment as

Page 54

 1     well and then that will complete what I wanted to say for the time being.

 2     So I wanted to say a few words about the indictment and the various

 3     submissions.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  Let me interrupt you there and deal with the

 5     matter that you've just raised.

 6             I have a translation problem at the moment.  Could I have the

 7     English, please.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear the English?

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Yes, thank you.

10             I will convey to my colleagues what you've said about not

11     determining that issue at this stage, and we will consider all you've

12     said.  Bear in mind, however, that there is a legal issue involved in

13     your submission and that goes to the power of a person such as Holbrooke

14     to give undertakings on behalf of a Tribunal.  And that also is an issue

15     that has to be approached and determined by the Trial Chamber.  In other

16     words, whether even if all you've said is true, it ought to have or could

17     have any influence or impact on the work of an independent Tribunal.

18             Now, I know that you have your own views about the independence

19     of the Tribunal, which is a separate matter, but I alert you to the fact

20     that there is a legal issue there.  I hope you have taken full legal

21     advice before making the submissions you've made and that you're not

22     selling yourself short by a failure to secure proper legal representation

23     on this particularly important issue.

24             Now, the next matter you want to raise is that of the indictment

25     itself, but I would like to be ahead of you in the queue on that one, if

Page 55

 1     you don't mind, unless it's something to do with the current indictment.

 2     But if your question relates to where on earth is the indictment that the

 3     Prosecutor said he would be producing instead of the existing indictment,

 4     then I want to raise that rather than you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before that I would like to say

 6     that everything that was done by Mr. Holbrooke led to a Security Council

 7     resolution.  He was working on behalf of the Contact Group and the

 8     Security Council.  That is to say that this is not an issue that can be

 9     dismissed simply as a unilateral, or rather, bilateral agreement between

10     myself and the United States.  Everything that Holbrooke did led to

11     resolutions and activity on the part of the Security Council, that is to

12     say he did act on behalf of the permanent members of the Security

13     Council.  That's the point.  Not to go into the injustice leveled against

14     me now, the fact that I lived there way for 13 years from a social point

15     of view, from a family point of view, as if I were dead.  It's not an

16     easy thing to deal with.

17             As for the indictment itself, I will wait for you to say what you

18     have to say, and then I will have something to say in respect of the

19     material that I've been receiving from the OTP.  So I imagine that you

20     will allow me to say that.

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Before we turn to the question of the indictment,

22     Mr. Tieger, can you clarify for me the situation in relation to certain

23     filings made between Monday and today?  There are two filings relating to

24     Rule 70 which appear to knock each other out, and therefore they appear

25     to be academic.  But there were two other filings related to protective

Page 56

 1     measures.  Now, have these actually been intimated to the accused?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if we're talking about the same

 3     documents, I believe that's -- that is the case.

 4             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, one is headed a motion which is partly ex

 5     parte seeking delayed disclosure of the identity of a witness, and the

 6     other one is your notification of protective measures currently in force

 7     for witnesses, but attached to it is certain relief that you seek from

 8     the Trial Chamber in relation to pseudonyms.  Now, have these been

 9     intimated to the accused?

10             MR. TIEGER:  The -- with respect to the supporting materials,

11     Your Honour, they haven't had any impact on the disclosure of the

12     supporting materials pursuant to 66(A)(i) and that has been provided with

13     the exception of --

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  Whoa, that's not my question.  My question is:

15     Have these two motions been intimated to the accused, do you know --

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE BONOMY:  They have.

18             MR. TIEGER:  The ex parte portion is only an annex.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  Indeed.  But they've both been intimated and

20     they've both been intimated in Serbian, have they?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe so, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  All right.  Perhaps someone else can clarify that

23     for me then.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, these two filings from the

25     Prosecution were distributed to the accused in English but not in B/C/S.

Page 57

 1     The translation will be ready tomorrow.

 2             JUDGE BONOMY:  The practice that's being followed, Mr. Karadzic,

 3     pending a decision about the use of language is that any motions or

 4     notices presented by the Prosecution are being intimated to you in

 5     Serbian, and there are two that I'm aware of because the English versions

 6     are available, but apparently they've not been translated yet.  So you'll

 7     get them in due course.  They relate to certain formalities connected

 8     with witness protection, but it will be for you to decide whether there

 9     are any responses you intend to make to these.  They may not require a

10     response, but it's for you to decide once you've looked at them whether

11     they cause you any concern.

12             Now, the only other motion I think I'm aware of at the instance

13     of the Prosecution relates to the form of written material submitted by

14     the accused to the Trial Chamber, and I think on a regular basis,

15     Mr. Tieger, in your filings you also refer to the need for the

16     Trial Chamber to alert the accused to the style that's appropriate for

17     formal proceedings in this Tribunal.  Is there any other matter that the

18     Prosecution has raised in the form of a motion that I've not referred to?

19             MR. TIEGER:  None that I can think of, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Thank you.

21             Well, that matter is also now at the stage where the

22     Trial Chamber can consider whether to deal with it.  As far as the two

23     earlier motions referred to that have not yet been intimated in B/C/S are

24     concerned, the time for responding, Mr. Karadzic, will run from the date

25     on which you get the Serbian version.  The English version at the moment

Page 58

 1     does not trigger the operation of the rule obliging you to respond within

 2     14 days.  So you will get the full allocation of time once you have it in

 3     your own language.

 4             The only other issue relating to your representation that I want

 5     to clarify at this stage is the one I mentioned the last time we were

 6     here, which was providing assistance from the Registry to make sure that

 7     you were able to do things in the routine way so that someone was able to

 8     help you and put documents in the right format, comply with the Rules

 9     regarding time-limits and so on, and also the possibility of a language

10     assistant to ensure that any translation difficulties are overcome.

11             Now, I understand the Registry are addressing that in a number of

12     ways, but have you had some sort of discussion with the Registry about

13     additional assistance they can give you as long as you are defending

14     yourself?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely today I had contact with

16     people from this office, and I will accept this technical assistance.

17             As for problems related to the material I have been receiving are

18     of a completely different nature.  I can disregard, or rather, forgive

19     the one-day delay.  The material I was supposed to receive by the 15th, I

20     received only yesterday and I received some of it today.  I was supposed

21     to receive it the day before yesterday to be specific.  For the most

22     part, most of this material is unusable, or rather, barely usable.  There

23     is a man who repairs computers who's been coming to help me all the time

24     so that I can review the material; however, the material has been coming

25     in on a gradual basis.  Sometimes --

Page 59

 1             JUDGE BONOMY:  Can I there stop you.  That is the next item I'm

 2     going to -- let's hear the Prosecution version of that and then you've

 3     got the -- you will have the floor to explain the difficulties.

 4             Mr. Tieger, there was an order for disclosure by the 15th of

 5     September of the material which falls under 66(A)(i).  What happened?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  The following happened, Your Honour.  The material

 7     was disclosed on September 15th.  Two documents that had inadvertently

 8     been omitted from that bulk of disclosure were provided the next day.

 9     The Court is aware based on the filings by the Prosecution that five

10     documents were subject to Rule 70 protections, those are the documents to

11     which the Court referred earlier.  We received permission on the 16th and

12     disclosed on the 17th, and that completed the Rule 66(A)(i) obligation

13     compliance.

14             JUDGE BONOMY:  And all that will be missing is any redaction

15     which has been authorised by previous orders of the Court?

16             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour -- and I should also

17     mention that there's one additional document that as the Court is aware

18     is subject to the motion for temporary delayed disclosure.

19             JUDGE BONOMY:  And that's one of the two documents that I just

20     referred to?

21             MR. TIEGER:  That's what I understood.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  That have yet to be intimated to Mr. Karadzic?

23             MR. TIEGER:  That's what I understood, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Okay.

25             Now just to complete my understanding of the picture, how was

Page 60

 1     disclosure effected?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I can -- I will look at my case manager for

 3     confirmation, but my understanding is the materials are provided to the

 4     Registry electronically and then for delivery to the accused.

 5             JUDGE BONOMY:  And does electronically mean a CD?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

 7             JUDGE BONOMY:  Now, Mr. Karadzic, I think that's the material

 8     that you were turning your attention to and telling me that it was barely

 9     usable.  Explain the difficulty, please.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, the material is

11     incomplete and there seems to be something wrong with the CDs.  So very

12     often I had to ask for help with the computer so that the material can be

13     readable.  The material does not contain enough material from the

14     previous indictments, and that is what I have asked for:  All the

15     material from all the indictments.

16             Also, there have been notes on some of these documents stating

17     that some of these documents are under seal because the trials have been

18     completed and the final judgements rendered.  I'm going to appeal that.

19     Also, I have some material that I don't know what to do with.  Since now

20     I should read hundreds or perhaps even thousands of pages of testimony

21     from people coming from very small villages, and perhaps this will not be

22     included in the indictment, and this exhausts all of my resources,

23     financial, mental, whatever, and perhaps none of this will appear or some

24     of it only will appear in the new indictment.  So perhaps I've been doing

25     all of this in vain.

Page 61

 1             You've clarified to me now that my dead-lines will actually start

 2     running from the moment I receive the Serbian version, so I'm not going

 3     to refer to that any more specifically now.

 4             So these are the problems I've had with the electronic reading of

 5     these documents, the fact that there have been documents that are

 6     incomplete, some of them are under seal; and also I do not have material

 7     from some of the other indictments.  Also, there has been a great deal of

 8     testimony from some very small villages and that perhaps will not even be

 9     included in my indictment.

10             JUDGE BONOMY:  As I said before, I've got to work, as you have to

11     work at the moment, with the indictment we've got, it's the only one

12     we've got.  And there might never be another one see the light of day.  I

13     don't know.  We'll turn to it in a moment but even if we're given an

14     assurance that there's going to be some proposed amendment, I don't know

15     what I and my colleagues will ultimately decide about whether that should

16     be authorised.  So I've got to follow the Rules as they stand in relation

17     to the indictment that is current.

18             What the Prosecution are bound to give you within 30 days, as it

19     turned out, by the 15th of September are copies of the supporting

20     material which accompanied the indictment when they sought confirmation,

21     and that's an awful long time ago, as well as prior statements obtained

22     from you.  So what the CDs contain is material which existed when your

23     indictment was first confirmed.  Now, the significance of that, no matter

24     what you say about the quality of the contents, the significance is that

25     it triggers the time running for you to raise preliminary motions.  These

Page 62

 1     are -- and these include objections to the indictment as set out in the

 2     Rules.  And I think we can take it that that day started as of yesterday

 3     because the 15th involved disclosure of the bulk of the material; the

 4     16th involved another five or -- five statements or seven statements, I

 5     can't remember --

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, sorry, excuse me, just to clarify.  The

 7     16th involved two documents that should have been included in the 15th

 8     and the 17th involved the five statements --

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  17th.

10             So these are the dates that would normally have triggered the

11     running of the time, and since I assume that they're all in Serbian, the

12     time will be running from today.  So you've got the provisions of Rule 73

13     now -- sorry, 72 now running, and you've 30 days to tender any motion you

14     intend to tender in terms of Rule 72.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we accept these minor oversteps,

16     will I be granted the same benevolence if I slightly overstep my

17     dead-lines?

18             JUDGE BONOMY:  That will always depend on circumstances,

19     Mr. Karadzic, as you know.

20             But can I say to you that in relation to the various points

21     you're making about the electronic disclosure, the CD and what it has,

22     you should feel free to communicate with me about technical issues and

23     procedural issues as regularly as you wish as long as you notify the

24     Prosecution of the terms of which you are communicating.  And if you

25     would be so good as to draw up a list of deficiencies of the material on

Page 63

 1     the CD, then I will consider the position.  But bear in mind that it's

 2     not necessarily meant to be all the material that will support the case

 3     against you.

 4             For example, there's no obligation at this stage yet to have

 5     disclosed to you any subsequent statements, that's subsequent to the

 6     confirmation of the indictment, that may have been taken from witnesses.

 7     So there's going to be lots more material coming your way.  And now that

 8     I know that we've got Rule 66(A)(i) out of the way, then I can turn my

 9     attention to a time -- a calendar of dates for further procedure in the

10     case; and that I will be doing over the next couple of weeks.

11             Now, is there anything else that you wish to say on the subject

12     of the disclosure of these materials or are you content that I'm open to

13     any submission in writing you wish to make once you've looked at the

14     detailed difficulties that these present?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to see what it is that

16     I'm up against.  I'd like to know what the indictment is and what the

17     Prosecution holds against me.  I would also like to see the supporting

18     material, what they have against me in that material, I would like to

19     receive all of that.  I would like it to be of proper quality so I know

20     what I'm up against, I know what I'm dealing with.  That is a basic

21     matter.

22             All right, as far as the indictment is concerned we'll deal with

23     that after you have spoken again.

24             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, let's turn to that now.

25             Mr. Tieger, the reason this keeps coming up is because the

Page 64

 1     Prosecutor made a press statement shortly after the arrest of

 2     Mr. Karadzic, saying that the indictment was to be reviewed.  And

 3     everyone I think is waiting with baited breath on the outcome of that

 4     review.  What is the position?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  The position, Your Honour, is that we expect to file

 6     the motion for amended indictment and the proposed amended indictment by

 7     Monday, and we're doing everything possible to file it, if we can, by

 8     Friday.

 9             JUDGE BONOMY:  Your reaction to that, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, this is what my

11     reaction is.  Instead of insisting on that, or rather, insisting on an

12     expeditious trial or very hasty trial, it would be better for the

13     Prosecution to speed up their own work.  I ask you to caution them with

14     regard to these statements they keep making time and again, that all of

15     this will proceed as speedily as possible.  This really disturbs my

16     defence and disturbs me in general, it also creates a feeling among the

17     general public that everything has already been decided and that they

18     know something that no one else knows.  I ask you to ask them to set a

19     dead-line today when they're going to come up with this new indictment so

20     they do not overstep this dead-line yet again two or three days, which

21     has been their custom.

22             JUDGE BONOMY:  The problem I have with that, Mr. Karadzic,

23     is - and I'm entirely with you on it, that this ought to have been dealt

24     with by now - but the problem I have is that the Prosecution can propose

25     the amendment of an indictment at any time.  I can't set a time-limit by

Page 65

 1     which they must submit the motion.  All I can do as a member of a Trial

 2     Bench is take into account any delay in tendering the proposed amendment

 3     when we come to decide whether to allow the Prosecution to amend the

 4     indictment.  So what you have is a pretty firm indication today from the

 5     Prosecution that it will be no later than Monday, and they hope that it

 6     will be Friday of this week.

 7             Now, that event will then trigger the appropriate period for you

 8     to respond and deal with the arguments that are advanced in the motion

 9     seeking to amend the indictment.  With -- perhaps Mr. Tieger would also

10     elaborate for Mr. Karadzic what material will accompany the motion just

11     in broad terms, the nature of that material.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I'm -- well, obviously, Your Honour, the motion will

13     be accompanied by the requisite supporting material to the extent

14     specifications are provided in the proposed amended indictment that were

15     not contained in the current indictment or to the extent there are any

16     new charges.  So I think what we'll see that is different is

17     specification of particularized incidents and supporting materials for

18     those that may not have been -- that may not have accompanied the

19     original indictment.

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, if they were simply

21     bringing their indictment into better shape, expressing things better,

22     might simply present an application to amend the indictment with no

23     additional materials such as statements and so on.  If they introduce new

24     charges, then they will have to produce along with the motion the

25     statements, the material, the evidence, which supports the charges.  And

Page 66

 1     if indeed they alter any of the charges or seek to alter them, and that's

 2     because of additional material they've obtained, they will have to give

 3     you that additional supporting material.

 4             So at the moment, I can't tell you exactly what's in there

 5     because I have no more idea than you, but you will get a bundle of

 6     material, it would appear, by no later than Monday explaining why the

 7     Prosecution now seek to amend the indictment against you.  Now, it's

 8     progress.  I can do no more, though, than make it clear that we will take

 9     account of all the circumstances surrounding the amendment of the

10     indictment when we come to decide what to do about the application.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I ask for this indictment to be

12     treated like a perfectly new one because it has been announced to me as a

13     new one.  I cannot accept that this is just some kind of alteration,

14     cosmetic alteration, and I have invested quite a bit of time and effort

15     into this.  It has been announced as new.  It's not a made-up old

16     indictment, no.  If that was the intention of the Prosecution, then I

17     kindly ask that they be stopped from doing that and could I get an

18     additional 30 days to state my views regarding this indictment and

19     everything else that a new indictment requires?

20             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, when you make that sort of motion,

21     Mr. Karadzic, I'm inclined to think that you're making it for the sake of

22     making it.  You can't make a motion for additional time and expect the

23     Court to be sympathetic when you haven't even seen the volume of material

24     involved and how complex it might be.  If when you see it, you feel that

25     14 days is not an adequate period of time for you to respond, then you

Page 67

 1     should bring that to the attention of the Court.  That's the normal way

 2     these things are done, and there's substance in what you might say.  And

 3     if the amendment includes new charges, then you are back at square one in

 4     relation to these charges because you will then have to -- you will then

 5     have to have an appearance again or a hearing at which you have to tender

 6     pleas, and you'll have the pleasure of me pronouncing you not guilty yet

 7     again when you refuse to tender your plea.

 8             So we've got the opportunity once you receive the indictment for

 9     you to make any suggestion to the Trial Chamber you think appropriate

10     about the time that ought to be taken or ought to be allowed to you to

11     respond to it.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This does differ from what I had

13     heard from Mr. Orie, who said that if there is a new indictment then I

14     have a new period starting and also I enter a new plea.  Look it up in

15     the transcript.  That is what was said, that if there is a new indictment

16     there will be a new period that would run for me.  That is why I didn't

17     read this new indictment, or rather, the old indictment.  I didn't want

18     to squander my resources if something is going to be derogated or

19     changed, I really want to see this new version.  I have wasted already a

20     month and a half.

21             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, I think that's exactly what I've said to

22     you.  If this indictment has any new charge, you're back at square one in

23     relation to that charge and you have to tender a plea and the time-limits

24     run from that plea as they ran from the previous plea.  But we haven't

25     seen yet the extent to which it may include new charges or if it's in

Page 68

 1     fact a completely different indictment.  Let's wait and see and make

 2     decisions accordingly, rather than speculate.  The last thing I expect

 3     you want any of us to do in this course of these proceedings is

 4     speculate.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For me it is new from every

 6     conceivable point of view because I have been misled to the effect that

 7     there will be a new indictment and that I will have a new opportunity to

 8     enter a new plea.  Therefore, I have not even looked at this indictment,

 9     as I have been misled to believe that I will once again be given this

10     right.  Therefore, I should be allowed a new beginning if there is a new

11     indictment because I've lost all this time to study the indictment.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, we'll deal with it as the circumstances

13     develop once that motion is made.

14             Is there any other matter, Mr. Tieger, that you wish to raise?

15             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE BONOMY:  Is there any other matter, Mr. Karadzic, that you

17     wish to raise?  Perhaps I should make one thing clear to you before I ask

18     you that question.  I would normally fix a date now for the next

19     Status Conference, but I think it might be better in the circumstances to

20     see what happens in relation to the motion for the new indictment.  In

21     other words, once we get that motion and once you've had a chance to look

22     at it and indicate a likely time-scale for your response, then I might I

23     think at that stage fix an appropriate date for the next

24     Status Conference.

25             Now, meanwhile -- and that won't be far away.  We will certainly

Page 69

 1     have another of these hearings within the next month.

 2             Meanwhile, is there anything else that you wish to raise?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I'd like to say that

 4     I don't expect you to comply with the requests to get through all this

 5     speedily, hastily, not because I am defending myself but because this is

 6     unusual, extraordinary, it's a big trial and there's no need to speed it

 7     up.  I will avail myself of the right to ask that if the indictment

 8     appears, I will treat it as a new indictment; and I retain the right to

 9     do more things in the pre-trial stage with respect to investigating the

10     immunity question and the jurisdiction of this Tribunal.  But having said

11     that, I have nothing further to add here today.

12             JUDGE BONOMY:  Well, I'm grateful to you for the assistance you

13     have given me in trying to make progress in the case and also to the

14     Prosecution for dealing with each of the issues so expeditiously.  We are

15     now adjourned, and I will notify you of the date for the next hearing,

16     probably towards the end of next week or the beginning of the following

17     week, once you're able to give an indication of the time you might take

18     to respond to the Prosecution motion.

19             Thank you.

20                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference

21                           adjourned at 4.02 p.m.