Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1948

 1                           Thursday, 6 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everybody.

 6             I was told that there are some preliminary matters from the

 7     parties, and the Chamber will have an issue to raise with the parties as

 8     well.

 9             I will hear from you, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11             I wanted to raise a scheduling issue in connection with the next

12     witness.  The upcoming witness is, I don't think there's any dispute, an

13     extraordinary international civil servant whose most recent service has

14     been running the relief operation in Haiti for a matter of months.

15     Indeed, he comes to the Tribunal directly from there.  It's extremely

16     important to the witness that he be able to depart The Hague on Tuesday.

17     And I would note, in that regard, that this upcoming weekend, for

18     example, will represent his second consecutive weekend in The Hague, in

19     part, to accommodate the Defence request to interview him this past

20     Monday.

21             Now, in that regard, and in an effort to ensure that the witness

22     is in a position to depart by Tuesday, the Prosecution has reduced its

23     time for examination-in-chief so that the cross-examination can commence

24     today.  That would, of course, leave Friday -- a portion of today,

25     Friday, Monday, and at least a good portion of Tuesday, to my judgement

Page 1949

 1     would be sufficient.  But because the Wednesday would not be possible if

 2     he were to depart on Tuesday, I would also ask the Court to seriously

 3     consider and please schedule an afternoon hearing for tomorrow or Monday.

 4     We've checked the courtroom schedules.  They're both available.  I think

 5     that would ensure, to the maximum extent possible, that this witness,

 6     who's already devoted an extraordinary amount of his time, time which is

 7     demanded by many people, the effort to bring his evidence before the

 8     Tribunal.

 9             And I would also add that this would not result in an unexpected

10     cross-examination by the accused on Wednesday of an accelerated witness.

11     We wouldn't be bringing a witness forward for that purpose.  So the

12     accused would not be facing the cross-examination of a witness before he

13     anticipated that.

14             So under these circumstances, Your Honours, I would please ask

15     the Court to determine whether, indeed, those courtrooms are

16     available - I believe they are - and to schedule an afternoon session for

17     either Friday or Monday for this purpose.

18             Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So to be clear, there will be no sitting on

20     Wednesday next week?

21             MR. TIEGER:  Under the -- yeah, under these circumstances, that's

22     precisely what I would ask.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson, do you have any say to

24     this?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this certainly doesn't work

Page 1950

 1     to the benefit of the Defence.  If the witness has the ambition to

 2     present not only his knowledge, but also his beliefs and feelings, and we

 3     did discuss that because he was kind enough to come to see me, anyway,

 4     this doesn't work in favour of the Defence.

 5             As for the quantity of material that the Prosecution wants to

 6     tender through this witness, that will not be reduced; on the contrary.

 7     However, we'll do our best.

 8             I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to express a

 9     certain concern, since I've already had some negative experience.

10             It's not only that this system is totally unknown to us, but even

11     within that system, it seems to me that the Prosecution and witnesses can

12     do whatever they want to do and say whatever they want to say, and the

13     Defence has to state that or to refute their lies.  I understand that a

14     witness doesn't have to know anything about a particular document, but

15     the document speaks of something that is quite different to what, say,

16     this particular witness now is saying.  It is the very opposite.

17             So if lopsided statements are being admitted into evidence, I

18     have to challenge the witness by saying that the documents of her

19     government, or of various intelligence services, showed that that was not

20     the case, that the phenomenon, itself, was different.  That's why I'm

21     asking for a certain degree of understanding.

22             We want to show what is not true, and that is what an

23     investigative judge would do within our system.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Back to the scheduling issue regarding the next

25     witness.

Page 1951

 1             So due to these circumstances of the Chamber, it not being

 2     possible to sit the whole day tomorrow, but a certain extension would be

 3     possible, though, we'll try to sit the whole day -- we'll sort out the

 4     way in which we will be sitting on Monday, and then we'll be sitting in

 5     the morning of Tuesday, and in that way we'll try to accommodate the

 6     situations triggered by the witness's circumstances.

 7             Shall we go back to private session briefly -- go into private

 8     session.

 9                           [Private session]

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Page 1952

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11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before we finish up the cross-examination of

14     Ms. Zaimovic, I would like to clarify the Chamber's position with regard

15     to some of the documents put to her yesterday by Mr. Karadzic.

16             The Chamber has had the opportunity to re-read the transcript of

17     yesterday's hearing, and has given further thought to the admission of

18     certain documents.  In light of this further consideration, we are going

19     to reverse our decision on the admission of certain documents and give

20     some guidance on the practice that we expect both parties to follow in

21     the future.

22             I recall the comments made by my colleague

23     His Honour Judge Morrison yesterday afternoon concerning questioning of

24     witnesses about documents which they have no knowledge of or cannot speak

25     to.  The Chamber is of the view that, in these circumstances, such

Page 1953

 1     documents should not be admitted into evidence, even where there is no

 2     dispute about authenticity or even relevance.

 3             In addition to relevance and authenticity, the Chamber must be

 4     satisfied as to the probative value of a piece of proposed evidence, and

 5     this requires that the witness to whom it is shown is able to confirm its

 6     content or make some other positive comment about it.  We take

 7     Mr. Tieger's point that to do otherwise is essentially the same as

 8     admitting the document from the Bar table.

 9             While there may be circumstances in which such admission from the

10     Bar table is appropriate, the Chamber has already issued a decision

11     stating that this should be the exception rather than the rule, and

12     stringent requirements have to be met before a document will be accepted

13     into evidence from the Bar table.

14             For these reasons, the Chamber has reconsidered its decision to

15     admit documents 1D902, now marked as Exhibit D122, and 1D905, which is

16     now admitted as D121, and instructs the Registry, the Court Officer, to

17     now mark these documents as not admitted.

18             Similarly, we marked for identification a number of documents

19     yesterday pending English translation.  Even once the English translation

20     of these documents are available, the Chamber will not admit them into

21     evidence on the same basis; namely, the witness was unable to confirm

22     them or comment on their content.  There is, therefore, no reason for

23     them to remain marked for identification, and the Registry Court Officer

24     should remove these designations from them.  The documents in question

25     are:  1D903, MFI Exhibit D124; 1D920, MFI Exhibit D126; 1D946, MFI 1D27;

Page 1954

 1     1D949, MFI Exhibit 128; 1D950, MFI Exhibit D129.

 2             The Chamber advises both parties to only tender for admission

 3     into evidence a document put to a witness either on direct or on

 4     cross-examination which the witness has been able to speak to.  This does

 5     not prevent you, Mr. Karadzic, from putting any document you wish to a

 6     witness.  But if the witness is clearly unable to say anything about the

 7     document, it will not be admitted and you should not keep putting

 8     questions to the witness about it.

 9             What I would like to add to this is that this rule will apply

10     evenly to the Prosecution when they will be cross-examining the Defence

11     witnesses during the course of the Defence case.  Otherwise, the Chamber

12     will be inundated with a lot of Prosecution documents.

13             That said, we'll continue with Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination.

14     And I urge you to try to finish your cross-examination as soon as

15     possible.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, just while the witness is coming

17     in, I would like to just make two observations about the Chamber's

18     ruling.

19             First of all, I think we also have to revisit the admission of

20     92 ter-associated exhibits, because you'll see that there are contained

21     in those exhibits documents that the witness could not really speak to,

22     but that were emphasising points that the witness had made during their

23     testimony; for example, Ambassador Okun had -- there was admitted

24     shorthand notes from the session of the Council for Co-ordinating

25     Positions on the state Policy that he never attended or knew nothing

Page 1955

 1     about.

 2             We had the same vision that the Prosecution had about the

 3     admission of documents, and we didn't object to the 92-ter-associated

 4     exhibits at the time.  But if we're going to change the rules and require

 5     that the witness have a knowledge of the document, then it seems like we

 6     also should revisit the admission of documents already with previous

 7     witnesses when we've had a different point of view.  That's one point.

 8             And my second point is that I still think it's necessary -- well,

 9     it's advisable that documents be marked for identification even if

10     they're not -- don't meet your standards of admissibility, because in the

11     Defence case, should we try to admit those documents or discuss them,

12     it's -- in order to keep track of which document was shown to the

13     witness, I think there ought to be some designation of that document that

14     was shown to the witness, and usually marking for identification is the

15     way that that designation is done.

16             So I would ask that you continue to allow the documents to be

17     marked for identification, and then later on we'll have a way to link

18     those documents to the witness that testified about them, even though

19     they weren't admitted.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before Judge Morrison responds to you, there are two

22     procedural matters.

23             The Chamber has decided not to revisit all the previous exhibits

24     that have been admitted, so we limited our reconsideration to those that

25     took place yesterday.

Page 1956

 1             And as for the MFI'ing -- marking for identification practice, it

 2     causes a lot of administrative problems in keeping, maintaining,

 3     monitoring, those things.  We are using the e-court system, and then we

 4     have the 65 ter number in the transcript, so all the Defence evidence can

 5     be traceable through transcript, through e-court, so I don't think

 6     MFI'ing things are absolutely necessary.

 7             Judge Morrison.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Robinson, you said the witness had a

 9     knowledge of the document, and that's not, strictly speaking, necessary,

10     that the witness have a knowledge of the document.  If the document is

11     used as an aide-memoire or a source for cross-examination, and the

12     witness positively responds by agreeing to a question that is put, or

13     accepting a factual matter contained in the document, then the document

14     can be exhibited.  So they don't have to have prior knowledge of the

15     document.  They simply have to adopt it in some meaningful evidential

16     way.

17             I reiterate what the President has said about the 65 ter numbers.

18     That should be an adequate way of dealing with the -- I appreciate your

19     position on that.  It could otherwise become unmanageable.  But the

20     reason to repeat that which the President said is this: that this is

21     really for the benefit not simply of the Chamber, but of both parties.

22     If we get to a stage where Dr. Karadzic has hundreds or even thousands of

23     documents put to him by the Prosecution with which he does not agree or

24     his witnesses do not agree, there is no logical reason why those should

25     go into evidence, any more the Defence documents.  This is a balancing

Page 1957

 1     exercise for the benefit of all parties, so that the only things which

 2     are exhibited as evidence truly merit evidential consideration.

 3             Of course, there is nothing to prevent a document which is not

 4     exhibited ab initio through a witness from becoming an exhibit because it

 5     is spoken to by secondary evidence during the course, for instance, of

 6     the Defence case.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Welcome back, Ms. Zaimovic.  I hope you had a good

 9     rest yesterday.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.

11                           WITNESS:  FATIMA ZAIMOVIC [Resumed]

12                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

14     cross-examination.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Ms. Zaimovic.

18        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.

19        Q.   I would like to go back to a few things that you said, things

20     that you described in quite a bit of detail, but without any proof, or,

21     rather, there was a lack of precision involved.

22             Before that, I would like to ask the usher to show a certain name

23     to you.  Please don't read it out, so that we don't have to go into

24     closed session.  I'm just going to ask you whether you know that person.

25             Could somebody help me, please.

Page 1958

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Show it to the Prosecution first.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, do you know that person?

 4        A.   Believe me, I don't.  Judging by the last name and the first

 5     name -- no, I don't.

 6        Q.   All right.  How come you sent that person to be disciplined?

 7     This person was sent to a commission because she wrote that she was --

 8     this person wrote that he or she was an ethnic Serb and of Orthodox

 9     religion.

10        A.   No, I did not send anyone to a disciplining commission.

11        Q.   You did not?  And Dr. Andrija Gvozdenovic intervened, stating

12     that this kind of discrimination and mistreatment should stop, because

13     this person had declared herself or himself as an Orthodox Serb; you're

14     saying you didn't do that?

15        A.   I didn't, and that is certainly true.

16        Q.   Thank you.  We are going to obtain proof.

17        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I don't know this name at all, and I know all of my

18     nurses or all the doctors who worked with me.

19        Q.   She did not work with you as a nurse?

20        A.   No, she did not.  I don't know her.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that you are a caring person, you care

22     about other people's children, and you certainly care about your own as

23     well.  Did you go to visit your son at the front-line?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Did Islam go?

Page 1959

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Then your son came home; right?

 3        A.   Well, from time to time, yes.

 4        Q.   How often?

 5        A.   Well, say once a month, or twice a month, in order to take a

 6     bath.

 7        Q.   Where were his positions?

 8        A.   I don't know about that.  I've already told you that.  I know

 9     that he was in Azici for a while, down there, and that's the only thing I

10     know.

11        Q.   At one point, did 150 wounded persons come to your hospital from

12     Azici?

13        A.   From Azici, indeed, a lot of people were brought to the state

14     hospital down there, and probably to our hospital as well.  But since I

15     worked at the children's surgical ward, I did not see these wounded men.

16        Q.   Is it possible that you didn't talk to your son about anything in

17     relation to the war, the conflict, the deaths, the shellings; nothing?

18        A.   Of course I talked to him.

19        Q.   Well, are you going to share some of that with us?

20        A.   I don't think that really matters.  It's not really important for

21     this Court to hear what I discussed with my son.  I didn't come here to

22     talk about that.  I came to say something completely different.  I came

23     to speak about children who were victims during the war, and I would like

24     to ask you to allow me to speak of the children who lost their arms,

25     their legs, who suffered so greatly during the war.  Perhaps you're going

Page 1960

 1     to recognise some of the names.

 2        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, with all due respect, in addition to the names of

 3     these children and their suffering, you said a great many other things as

 4     well that I have to challenge and deny in various ways.

 5             Are you denying that Muslim soldiers sometimes used shells and

 6     sometimes sniper fire to kill people in Sarajevo, including children?

 7        A.   I think that that did not happen, because their dignity would not

 8     allow them to do that kind of thing.

 9        Q.   Are you trying to say that Musan Topalovic, Caco; Ramiz Delalic,

10     Celo; the other Celo as well, Juka Prazina, and all these notorious

11     criminals, had a dignity that prevented them from committing crimes

12     against their own people?

13        A.   I don't see how you can twist things that way.  They defended the

14     city, though.  What kind of people they were, I don't know.  I just heard

15     that they defended the city.  And I doubt that they committed these

16     crimes.  You are twisting the facts without providing any arguments.

17        Q.   And if I put it to you, Ms. Zaimovic, that French soldiers and

18     other soldiers of the UN established that your soldiers were killing your

19     own children with sniper fire, that they even saw a girl who fell victim

20     to sniper fire and probably ended up in your hospital, are you saying

21     that the United Nations also lie?

22        A.   I cannot be the judge of that, but I don't think that what you

23     are saying is true.

24        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, I'm trying not to share with you what I know, but

25     what the United Nations know and what your government knows.

Page 1961

 1             I would like to call up 1D941.  This is a report issued by your

 2     Ministry of the Interior of the Sarajevo Security Services Centre, which

 3     was sent to everybody, the 1st Corps of the BiH Army, the Staff of the

 4     Supreme Command, to the MUP, to the under-secretary for state security,

 5     and so on and so forth.  And we will see the document, in which it says

 6     information about some activities in the base of the

 7     2nd Independent Battalion of the BiH Army.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the translation which is in e-court

10     is not the translation of the B/C/S document on the screen.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that there is a

12     translation, however.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll try only with the B/C/S version.  I was

14     told that there's no matching English translation.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, this is a document issued by your Ministry of the

17     Interior, which also includes State Security.  It says here in this

18     document that the Independent Battalion of the BiH Army, in Mosa Pijade

19     Street, to be more precise, on the ground floor, the commander of the

20     unit is Adnan Solakovic, and lately the commander of the 10th Mountain

21     Brigade, Musan Topalovic, departed, Caco, has been visiting the

22     headquarters more frequently.  Did you know of him?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you know that he was killed in the conflict?

25        A.   Yes, I heard of that.

Page 1962

 1        Q.   Do you know that the police turned against Caco only when he

 2     killed the son of Avdo Hebib, the minister of the police?

 3        A.   I believe that that's not correct.  However, you should ask the

 4     MUP as to how that transpired.  But I don't think it's the way you are

 5     describing it.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I received information from Bosnia that they had lost

 7     everything, that everything had gone missing, and that we can't get hold

 8     of anything.  We'll have to try to talk to the Trial Chamber to make them

 9     provide us with anything.  You see how Solakovic privately established a

10     crossroads at the entrance of Mesa Selimovic Road, and myofascial

11     surgery, there is a barricade of three sandbags, and it says on the upper

12     floor of the hospital there's also a bunker which controls the entire

13     plateau of transfixiology [as interpreted] and most of Nemanjina Street,

14     as well as the crossroads of the aforementioned street with Mosa Pijade

15     Street.  Do you see that Bolnicka used to be Mosa Pijade Street?

16        A.   Yes, you're right.  On reflection, I realise that you're right,

17     that it used to be called Mosa Pijade.

18        Q.   In front of the bunker, there is a concrete plate, 30 by 10

19     metres large, where four vehicles are parked, two of them ambulances, and

20     also an APC.  That APC is very interesting, because it is the sentry

21     point for a guard who is standing there with a death sower.

22     On the third floor of the stomatology surgery, there

23     are two or three sniper nests which are distributed in such a way as to

24     cover the plateau of the gas station in Kosevo.

25             And the following sentence -- and most of the Mosa Pijade Street

Page 1963

 1     and the area around the School of Medicine.

 2             And the following sentence:

 3             "In all these sentry points, there are mostly two men deployed in

 4     full combat gear.  At the very entrance into the hospital, we noticed

 5     guards in blue flak-jackets, and we realised -- we learned from some

 6     sources that --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, are you reading out something?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether the witness is following.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm already on page 3.  I'm already

11     on page 3.  I apologise.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see that on the screen.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's go back to page 2.  You will

14     see the beginning of what I was reading.  I apologise.  I was not

15     following what was on the screen.

16             Can we have the second page of the document, please.

17             I just read out what Adnan Solakovic was doing, and can this

18     please be enlarged.

19             And Musan Topalovic, also known as Caca, and here, I described

20     how he created a special zone in the middle of this city which he

21     reinforced in order to be completely safe from the police and to be

22     completely autonomous.

23             Now we can go to page 3, please.  Page 3, please.  Yes, thank

24     you.

25             "On the third floor --"

Page 1964

 1             If you look at the third line from the top of the page:

 2             "On the third floor of the stomatology ward, there are

 3     temporarily two or three sniper nests which are distributed in such a way

 4     as to cover the plateau in front of the Kosevo gas station."

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, do you know what the sniper range is?

 7        A.   No, I don't.  Mr. Karadzic, I have never held a pistol or any

 8     other kind of weaponry in my hands, nothing that one could shoot from.

 9     But now I'm asking you, what kind of secret documents are these, who

10     wrote them?  Were they written by your people?  Is this war propaganda?

11     What am I supposed to do with this?  I don't have a clue what this is.  I

12     apologise.  This is something that I never saw.  I don't know who made

13     bunkers, who did this or that.  What was done in the city, I really don't

14     know.  My job for four years was to go from my house to my hospital.  I

15     rarely went into town.  I was afraid of shelling and sniper fire and

16     everything else.  And that was my range, that's what I did.  I went to

17     work and back home, and very often I did that under sniper fire and

18     bullets.  It never occurred to me to go to another part of the city, let

19     alone try to see where sniper nests are.  This was probably done by your

20     own people, who were probably spies in our own units.

21             This is a military matter.  I'm not here to deal with any

22     military matters.  You have to understand that.  Ask me something else.

23        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, this was not done by my men.  This was signed by

24     Munir Alibabic, a high official and the chief in the Security Services

25     Centre in Sarajevo; a Muslim, as you know.  And these are documents

Page 1965

 1     issued by the Muslim government in the middle of Sarajevo.

 2        A.   Why don't you ask him when he comes here?

 3        Q.   Madam, you say that we were the ones who targeted targets.

 4        A.   You did, you climbed Trebevic.

 5        Q.   And the bunker between the School of Stomatology and myofascial

 6     surgical ward, is that a civilian target?

 7        A.   Of course it is.

 8        Q.   So how are you -- why are you saying that we targeted civilian

 9     targets?

10        A.   You targeted everything; houses, hospitals.

11        Q.   I know that you're not aware of the sniper range.

12        A.   I don't know any ranges.  I don't know what the shell range is.

13     I don't know what a sniper range is.  I've never held a pistol or any

14     other piece of weaponry in my hands, nothing that could kill people.

15     That's far removed from me.  That's how I was brought up; kindly.

16     Please, do not talk to me about these things.  This is a military matter.

17        Q.   Madam, I apologise.  Just for the transcript, I would

18     like --

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  You need to slow down a bit.  Because you're

20     entering into what is, in effect, argument, rather than

21     cross-examination, which is not the way you should be proceeding, in any

22     event, you're both speaking - both you and the witness - are speaking

23     very fast, and I don't know how the interpreters are keeping up with it.

24     They are, just, but it must be exceptionally wearing for them, and it's

25     very difficult for the Trial Chamber to follow it.

Page 1966

 1             So can you please slow it down sufficiently to allow the

 2     interpreters to do a proper job.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Accepted.

 4             Just for the transcript, I apologise to the interpreters.  The

 5     witness said that that was not a civilian target, and in the transcript

 6     it says that it was a civilian target.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is that correct; did you say that you understand that those

 9     bunkers were not civilian targets?  Is that what you said?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you just say that you passed under sniper fire and through

12     bullets?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know what the rifle range is?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Will you accept if I told you that the range of an automatic

17     rifle is less than a kilometre; of a sniper, a kilometre and a half at

18     the most; and that the Serbian positions were never any closer than two

19     to three kilometres from the area that you just described?

20        A.   What do you want me to say?

21        Q.   Whose bullets were those, if you had to pass through a torrent of

22     bullets in the area where the Serb rifles couldn't reach?  And you see

23     that there were snipers and there are bunkers in the middle of the town,

24     and they were not turned towards the Serbs, but towards the citizens of

25     Sarajevo; isn't that correct?

Page 1967

 1        A.   There were huge bullets, big bullets.  I don't know what they're

 2     called.  They zoomed by.  They pierced the walls.  That's what I

 3     remember.

 4        Q.   You're talking about rifle bullets, and now you're mentioning

 5     12.7.  You are the ones who had it, your army had those from the very

 6     beginning, and we only had them towards the end of the war.  But, in any

 7     case, even such a sniper range is not more than two and a half

 8     kilometres.  But I'm describing something that everybody could see in the

 9     street, bunkers in the middle of the town, and those bunkers were not

10     turned towards the Serbs, Serb positions.  They were made in order to

11     secure the gang from either the citizens or the police, and the police

12     reported to the authorities that in the centre of the town there was a

13     bunker which was not within their control, there were sniper nests, there

14     were APCs, and, madam, that was in the street.  It was in Bolnicka Street

15     or, rather, Mosa Pijade Street.  How come -- how is it possible that you

16     didn't see that?

17        A.   Of course I didn't, and it is crazy -- it would have been crazy

18     for people living in town to open fire on their own people.  That's your

19     fabrication.  I really don't understand that.

20        Q.   Well, it may be a crazy idea, but it's not my idea.  Madam, this

21     is a Muslim document.

22             Can we go back to the previous page, to page 1.

23             Do you deny -- I apologise.

24             On page 3, it says:

25             "Members of the aforementioned units are bragging that they have

Page 1968

 1     15 machine-guns, death sower, they have nitroglycerine

 2     rifles, and so on and so forth.

 3             In other words, your police is here reporting us to what was

 4     going on in a neighbourhood, and Serb rifles could not reach those

 5     positions because that was about more than three kilometres away from the

 6     Serb lines; isn't that correct?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I know nothing about all that.

 8        Q.   Madam, you say that the entrance into the hospital, you were shot

 9     at from a sniper; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Who was it who could open fire at you, since the Serbs were more

12     than two and a half kilometres away from that place?  Who could it have

13     been that opened fire on you?

14        A.   You armed all your Serbs in Sarajevo, and you gave all of them

15     weapons.  You know that.  I suppose that somebody opened fire from their

16     own window, and you know that also.  I don't know where, from, and how.

17        Q.   Are you saying that there were Serb units in Sarajevo, within

18     Sarajevo, which was under the control of the Muslim Army, the Muslim

19     police, and Muslim criminals:  Caco, Solakovic, Juka Prazina.  And terror

20     was targeted at Serbs only because they were Serbs, just like your nurse

21     who had to present herself to the disciplinary commission only because

22     she declared herself as an Orthodox Serb?

23        A.   I don't know that person at all, and I never sent any of the

24     nurses to present themselves to the disciplinary commission because I

25     dealt with those matters myself.  You know that and you can see it in all

Page 1969

 1     the documents.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

 4             I'm want to be clear I'm not trying to curtail or limit the

 5     accused's cross-examination in any way.  However, I wonder how many times

 6     he would be permitted to ask essentially the same question which has

 7     already been answered by the witness, who explained the limits of her

 8     knowledge about military matters, on the basis of a document she knows

 9     little about, and formulated in the form of lengthy argument, with

10     compound propositions presented to the witness, and then asking the

11     witness essentially to comment on things she's already said she's not in

12     a position to provide information on.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I took it he was wrapping up his cross-examination.

14             Bear that in mind, what Mr. Tieger has said, and then just be

15     brief in your questioning.

16             Let's conclude your cross-examination.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot bring my cross-examination

18     to an end in that way.  There are a lot of matters that either have to be

19     confirmed or refuted.  And these are documents.

20             Can I tender this document into evidence, because this document

21     was produced by the Ministry of the Interior of the Muslim government.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We object to the admission of this document,

25     pursuant to the directions that Your Honours gave earlier this afternoon.

Page 1970

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, that is obviously contingent upon whether

 2     or not the document is an agreed document.  If the document is agreed, as

 3     between the Prosecution and Defence, as being an accurate document, then

 4     it falls to be an agreed document and it can be exhibited, exactly the

 5     same way as a Prosecution document could be.  It really turns upon

 6     whether or not the contents of the document are agreed or disputed.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  I apologise to Your Honour and to

 8     Ms. Sutherland, but I just want to make a distinction, before any

 9     response is made, between the provenance of the document, that is, it is

10     a document that was produced by that particular authority, and the

11     accuracy of the contents of the document.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, yes, plainly if a document is -- if it is

13     agreed that the provenance is accurate, and it is, in fact, as it were, a

14     true document - whether it is an original or exact copy perhaps doesn't

15     matter - then the distinction then becomes whether or not the contents

16     are true.  Well, that's something that can be later disputed.  But if you

17     are not disputing that this document is, in fact, an accurate

18     representation of a government document, and the fact that this witness

19     has agreed to certain matters in it, then it may tend towards it being

20     exhibited.  But if you take the view -- if you dispute the provenance of

21     that document, that would be different.

22             MR. TIEGER:  I understand, Your Honour.  I thought I was -- I

23     wanted to make a clarification, but I think I muddled it slightly.

24             In any event, I think this is not a document which we dispute the

25     provenance of.  However, as with many of these documents, Ms. Sutherland

Page 1971

 1     may have a different position, but I think we're seeing many of them for

 2     the first time.  So I -- if you want to mark that for identification, we

 3     can have that checked.  I don't think -- I think this is a document that

 4     falls within the category you just alluded to, Your Honour, and that it

 5     will be admitted, but -- and perhaps I should never have arisen.  Perhaps

 6     I should have allowed Ms. Sutherland to, because --

 7             Oh, I apologise.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  And, in any event, as we know, this is a document

11     that has not been translated, so it would have to be MFI'd in any event.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Once a document is tendered into evidence and

13     exhibited, unless otherwise specifically directed, it is admitted for all

14     purposes, including for the truth of its content.  So bearing that in

15     mind, we will rather stick to our rule we set out at the beginning of

16     today's hearing, and then the witness didn't confirm anything about the

17     content of the document.  And, Mr. Karadzic, you will have another

18     opportunity to introduce this exhibit, so we will not admit it.

19             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  But, again, I'd like to

21     ask to be given enough time for my cross-examination.  This way, I simply

22     cannot do all the things I want to do.

23             I want to deal with the shortest possible parts of documents that

24     I have on my list.  D909 now, please.

25             I asked for six hours, and you're not even giving me four.

Page 1972

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think you misunderstood that

 2     which the learned President said.  He wasn't suggesting you would curtail

 3     your cross-examination immediately; simply as far as this document was

 4     concerned.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Try to conclude your examination --

 6     cross-examination by this session, and then we will see.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, do you know this person, Ramiz Delalic, Celo?

 9        A.   I heard about him, but I've never seen him.  I've never seen him

10     in real life.

11        Q.   Did you see him on TV?

12        A.   I don't seem to remember.  I have to tell you that.

13        Q.   And do you remember that he killed a member of a wedding party on

14     the 1st of March, 1992, because he carried a Serb flag during a wedding,

15     in front of the old church at Bascarsija?

16        A.   Yes, it was carried by the newspapers and the television.  I know

17     about it from the media, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that when the war started, he went on

19     TV and he boasted of this heroic deed?

20        A.   No, I don't remember that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted into

22     evidence, because the content has been confirmed.

23             JUDGE KWON:  No, she did not recognise this picture.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this man was treated at their

25     ward.  1D938.

Page 1973

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, while we're waiting for that:  Again, it's the

 3     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Ministry of Defence, the

 4     Security Department, that is to say, the authorities in the Muslims part

 5     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  What we have here is a bulletin.  We probably saw

 6     it a moment ago.

 7             I think that there is a translation.  Isn't that right?

 8             Now let us look at page 3 of this document.  Could I please have

 9     page 3?  This is 1.  I need page 3.

10             It says here:

11             "According to information of the Security Service of the

12     1st Corps, on the 21st of April, 1994, the former commander of this

13     brigade, Zakir Puskar, and the former deputy commander of the brigade,

14     Babic, Sead, visited the Command of the 2nd Brigade and had a heated

15     discussion in relation to the alleged release of Ramiz Delalic, Celo.

16     Delalic is currently being treated at the Kosevo Hospital and has

17     submitted a request to be transferred to the eye department because of

18     his eye problems."

19             That ward shares the same entrance with you; right?

20        A.   Well, it's not exactly the same entrance, but it's the same

21     building.

22        Q.   Did you know that Ramiz Delalic, Celo, was being treated in your

23     building?

24        A.   I didn't know about that, because I was treating children.

25        Q.   Did you notice a security detail, because when these people are

Page 1974

 1     being treated, there has to be security there?

 2        A.   Well, there was always security there at the front desk.  You

 3     know that.  That's the way it is to this day.  It was that way before the

 4     war, during the war.  The very entrance at the front desk, there were

 5     always people who were providing security for the hospital.

 6        Q.   I meant the security detail from his unit.  Who was chief of

 7     security for the entire hospital; do you remember?

 8        A.   I really cannot remember who the chief of security was.

 9        Q.   But you did remember that you heard of Amir Huskic, Kinez; right?

10        A.   I have heard the name, but I never met him personally and I don't

11     know who he is.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             You don't want to admit this document either, do you?

14             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Let's proceed.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, have you heard of Dr. Sinisa Markovic?

17        A.   No.  I don't even know where he worked.

18        Q.   He was a surgeon employed at the Clinic of Plastic Surgery.  Does

19     that ring a bell?

20        A.   Perhaps I have heard of him.  I don't know.  He must belong to a

21     younger generation, so I cannot remember.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D912, please.  Could I have that

23     document now.  1D912.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What we see here in the first section, he's a surgeon employed at

Page 1975

 1     the Clinic of Plastic Surgery.

 2             Now let us go on to page 2.  There are a few other relevant

 3     things here as well, but let's move on to page 2.

 4             It says here:

 5             "In the previous period --"

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we have the translation up in e-court,

 7     please?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I note that there's none.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There doesn't seem to be one.  I'll

10     read it out slowly.

11             So this has to do with Dr. Sinisa Markovic.  This is a

12     conversation with Sinisa Markovic.  He was at this clinic that was headed

13     by Professor Dr. Starovic, and it says here:

14             "Celo blocked the center of town.  There were conflicts ..."

15             Et cetera.  However, what is important on this page 2 is as

16     follows:

17             "In this previous period in front of the clinical centre, there

18     was a T-55 tank that opened fire at Serb positions in Poljine, and that

19     was registered by members of UNPROFOR.  Later on, the tank was moved to a

20     different location.  Also, a tank targeted Vogosca from the area of

21     Ciglana, and after a few precise hits, the very entrance of the tunnel by

22     the Serb soldiers, it stopped operating."

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you remember that you marked the entrance to the tunnel near

25     the hospital?

Page 1976

 1        A.   Yes, I marked it because that's what you asked me to do.  You

 2     asked me to mark it, and I marked it, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that in that tunnel, in one part there

 4     was a prison where Serbs were held, and in another part there were at

 5     least two tanks that went out from time to time, fired, and then went

 6     back?  Did you know about this tank that was in front of the clinical

 7     centre where you worked?

 8        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I don't know about any of that.  All of these

 9     things that you are asking me about now is Greek to me, as people would

10     say.  I would really want you to ask me about children, wounded children,

11     and about the situation at the ward.  If you looked into the eyes of a

12     mother losing her child.  Have you ever looked at a mother who was in

13     that position?  Have you ever seen her eyes if she was losing child and

14     then yet another child?  That is what I have been saying all along.

15     That's why I came here.  That's what I came here to talk about.  I don't

16     know about any of this, for heaven's sake, all of this you're showing me

17     now.  I never did anything to harm a single person ever in my life.  I

18     was always trying to help patients.  That's why I worked.  You left

19     medicine a long time ago.  You are not a physician any longer.  I,

20     however, have remained a nurse, and I'm proud of that because I helped

21     people all my life.  I helped wounded people, regardless of what their

22     names were.  That is what I want you to ask me about, please.

23             I do apologise for speaking about all of this, but --

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  May I intervene here.

25             We fully appreciate how you feel.  We really do.  But, you see,

Page 1977

 1     Dr. Karadzic is exercising a right, an entitlement, to ask you questions.

 2     Now, he is self-represented.  If he were represented, then his attorney

 3     would have asked you the questions.  But he is self-represented, so he is

 4     asking the questions.

 5             Now, they might appear to be difficult for you, they might appear

 6     to be not relevant for you, but the point is:  Until such time that they

 7     have been objected to, and the objection is sustained, then answer the

 8     questions as best you can.

 9             We do appreciate how you feel, but this is the procedure, and

10     Dr. Karadzic is actually following it.  But please.

11             Yes, Dr. Karadzic, carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, I'm asking you about things that are so obvious,

15     like a tank and other such things.  Let me ask you something else now.

16             You said that you saw a Serb tank by Osmice.

17             Can we have that map again, the one that was shown by the

18     Prosecution?  Yes, it was the Prosecutor that showed that map, with lines

19     that are marked.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Is he referring to the first page of this binder?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  The number is 0546-6574.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's P815.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it in e-court, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1978

 1        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, can you indicate where it was that you saw a tank?

 2     Can you see where Osmice is, actually?

 3        A.   I cannot.  I'm not very knowledgeable about maps, but you know

 4     where Osmice is.  That's a restaurant that you destroyed as soon as the

 5     war started, and there is that big rock right next to it.  You know that

 6     full well.  And behind that rock, that's where the tank hid, and it's

 7     only 50 metres away from my terrace, as the crow flies.  You know Breka

 8     very well as well.  I could, indeed, see a tank getting out from behind

 9     that rock and firing at town.  That's what I said, and that is the way it

10     was.

11             But please leave me alone with these maps.  I never knew about

12     maps.

13        Q.   I will say that between your house and Osmice, it's at least

14     three kilometres, not 50 metres.

15        A.   I told you, as the crow flies, 50 metres.

16        Q.   Well, we have the scale down here, and we can see exactly what

17     two, three, and four kilometres is.

18             And now look at the upper part, where it says "Centre."

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you see "Kosevo"?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And to the right, do you see your own neighbourhood?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And opposite that neighbourhood, you have Osmice and Trebevic;

25     right?

Page 1979

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Well, look how far away that is.

 3        A.   I don't think it's very far away.  I tell you, I sit on my

 4     terrace and I can see that, and that's the way it was.

 5        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, may I draw your attention to the scale down here in

 6     the lower right-hand corner, where it says what half a kilometre is, what

 7     one, two, three, and four kilometres are.  And look at the distance as

 8     the crow flies from your house and Osmice.

 9        A.   So what are you trying to say?

10        Q.   I'm not trying to say anything.  I'm just trying to establish

11     what it was that you had seen.

12        A.   I told you what I saw, and I stand by that.

13        Q.   Is Osmice opposite your house?

14        A.   Yes, that's right, opposite my terrace, my balcony.

15        Q.   To the south, right, but Grbavica, towards the south; right?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.

17        Q.   Now, since we see the scale here, we see that that is over three

18     kilometres.  Now, tell me, can you see the red-and-blue front-line?

19        A.   It's far away.  Are you talking about this red line here?

20        Q.   Yes, the red and blue lines that follow one another, as it were.

21        A.   Yes, I see that.

22        Q.   Do you believe that the front-lines at Trebevic were 20 to 50

23     metres away from each other?

24        A.   I don't know about that.  Please leave me alone with all this

25     military business.  You mastered that full well, all of this strategy and

Page 1980

 1     military stuff and whatever.  I never knew anything about it.  Please

 2     leave me alone.  Whoever wants to check can come and see what it was that

 3     I saw.

 4        Q.   Madam, you said that you saw a tank, and you even saw a shell

 5     being fired from the tank?

 6        A.   Yes, and the shell could be seen as it flew towards the apartment

 7     buildings there.

 8        Q.   But, madam, that shell is fired at a speed of 1300 metres per

 9     second.

10        A.   Yes, unfortunately.

11        Q.   So how can you see that?

12        A.   But you can.  You can see exactly how it's pulled and how it goes

13     out, how it's fired, how the shell is fired from that barrel.

14        Q.   Madam, I have to tell you a few things, and then you can tell us

15     whatever you want.  The distance from your house is at least three

16     kilometres.

17        A.   As the crow flies.

18        Q.   Okay, as the crow flies.  We can see the scale here.  It is

19     impossible for the tank to stay on the Serb line if the Muslim line is

20     only 20 to 50 metres away.  That tank would have been destroyed

21     immediately from a hand-held rocket-launcher.

22        A.   It was hidden behind the rock.  Do you know how big the rock is?

23        Q.   Okay, let me just tell me you a few things that refute all that

24     you're saying.

25             The United Nations control the positions of the Serb weaponry,

Page 1981

 1     and a shell that would have exited the tank barrel could not be seen.

 2     The tank could not have been standing in that place, because it could not

 3     have targeted anything in the town.  There would be a dead angle for the

 4     tank if it had been standing there.  It could only be firing above your

 5     house.

 6             Therefore, madam, did you see a Serb tank or a Muslim tank?  If

 7     that was 50 metres from your house, it must have been a Muslim tank.

 8        A.   No, it's not correct.  Those were your positions up there.

 9        Q.   I must tell you that it is impossible, that you saw something you

10     didn't see, and you didn't see a tank in front of the hospital, and you

11     did not hear it fire.

12        A.   I didn't see anything in front of the hospital, and I doubt there

13     were tanks in front of the house.  And up on the hills, all your tanks

14     were there, and you fired upon all of us down there, and you know it only

15     too well.  And it says so on all the maps, on all the papers that I saw

16     subsequently.  I saw how you surrounded Sarajevo.  Not a fly could get

17     through, and you know it only too well.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Ms. Zaimovic be provided with

19     a pen to mark Osmice and her own neighbourhood where she resided.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we do it after zooming on that map a little

21     bit further or -- but, Ms. Zaimovic, you can locate the place you are

22     living in -- how do you pronounce, the Osmice?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find Osmice.  I was close

24     to the centre across the street from the hospital, and that would be

25     somewhere here [indicates].  I don't know if I can read this map well.

Page 1982

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Above the hospital compound, to the right, to the right, where

 3     you were just a minute ago.  That's correct?

 4        A.   Here [indicates] is about where you would say, this is where I

 5     was.  I really cannot read maps.

 6        Q.   And now from there straight to the south, that's where Osmice is?

 7        A.   Here [indicates]?  Probably somewhere above.

 8        Q.   No, no, southwards, in the direction of Trebevic.

 9        A.   Where is Trebevic on this map?

10        Q.   Go south.  Go south towards Nova Sarajevo.

11        A.   Here [indicates], is that it?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please leave me be with all that.

14     I don't want to look at any maps.  Please.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it would be --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want you not to show me any maps.

17     I don't want to see any maps.

18             JUDGE KWON:  My microphone was not working.

19             I don't think it's assisting the Chamber, unless you go to there

20     and you give testimony.

21             Let's proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will give it a second

23     thought a bit later.

24             The fact is that Osmice is in the opposite direction.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 1983

 1        Q.   Madam, between where you lived and Osmice, were there any walls,

 2     were there any trees?  You mentioned trees, did you not?

 3        A.   What trees?

 4        Q.   You mentioned that you could not see anything from the hospital

 5     because of the trees.

 6        A.   I really don't know what you're asking me now.  If you're asking

 7     me about my ward and whether I could see anything from the windows of the

 8     hospital from my ward, I said no, and you know it very well.  In front of

 9     our ward, in front of the pediatrics ward, there are huge chestnut trees

10     which prevent any view to the city and to the gate, and those chestnut

11     trees are still in the same place where they were before, on both sides

12     of the street.

13        Q.   But that applies to others as well.  The other person looking in

14     the direction of your building could not see it, and if a shell was

15     fired, it would have ended up in the chestnut tree branches?

16        A.   I really don't know what happens to shells when they're fired.  I

17     only know that they ended up in the hospital, in the wards, everywhere.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this document please be removed.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   The fact is that the distance was not 50 metres.  If you had seen

22     a tank at a 50-metre distance, then have you to accept that it was a

23     Muslim tank.

24        A.   No, it was not.

25             JUDGE KWON:  As for the location or the distance from two places,

Page 1984

 1     you can prove it through other means, and you can even think about

 2     getting stipulation from the Prosecution.

 3             Let's move on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Could the Court please produce --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you have?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was hoping to have at least two

 8     more hours, one whole session.  There are a lot of things that have been

 9     said here, and I have ways to demonstrate that they were not true.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You don't have to put everything to the witness, as

11     I told you before.  You spent about two hours and forty minutes, and

12     after the break you will have --

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  You will have an hour in the next session to finish

15     your cross-examination.

16             We have five more minutes.  Let's continue.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Ms. Zaimovic, you said that people of Serb nationality were not

20     evicted from their apartments and that apartments were never a business

21     proposition in Sarajevo, and that Dr. Milica Lopandic committed suicide

22     and she was not thrown out a window; because such things happen, is that

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Did you ever hear of Marko Vesovic?

Page 1985

 1        A.   Yes, he was a poet.  The name does ring a bell.

 2        Q.   Yes.  And did you ever hear of Zarko Bulic, a famous lawyer?

 3        A.   No, never.

 4        Q.   I'm now going to read to you what Marko Vesovic wrote in his book

 5     in 1994.  Marko Vesovic says --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter remarks that it will not be

 7     possible to interpret if Mr. Karadzic is going to read from an

 8     untranslated text.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to follow your fast

10     reading.  I think we heard that poet some days ago -- yesterday.

11             Let's move on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to show you some 10

13     sources which say that that was a business in Sarajevo.  Serbs were being

14     thrown out of their apartments, and their apartments were then

15     confiscated.  Those Serbs were on the Muslim side, and both Muslims and

16     Serbs confirm that that was, indeed, done.  And this lady has to know

17     about it.  If she doesn't, then there's something wrong.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct, as far as I know.

19     Those things didn't happen.  This must have been your propaganda.  You

20     fabricated that.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is your writer, Marko Vesovic.  They threw him from the

23     fourth floor, but something incredible happened.  He remained alive, but

24     then they returned him to the fourth floor, and then they threw him away,

25     and then he died.  Ahmo had captured him three times, and so on and so

Page 1986

 1     forth.

 2        A.   Maybe these are Marko's poetic expressions.  You have to ask

 3     Marko.  I don't know anything about that.

 4        Q.   Did you ever hear of the family Nevstrujev?  Djordje Nevstrujev

 5     was a prosecutor.  Do you remember them?

 6        A.   No, I never heard of that family.

 7        Q.   Did you know that Marina Nevstrujev was taken from her apartment,

 8     and on the following morning somebody moved into her apartment?

 9     Obviously, Zarko Bulic concluded that that person must have known that

10     that woman would never return.

11        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you're asking me about things that I don't know.

12     And you expelled thousands upon thousands of people carrying only two

13     plastic bags in Banja Luka, in Srebrenica, and from all the other places.

14     How are you not ashamed of asking me things like that?  Thousands of

15     Muslims and Croats you expelled, you killed.

16        Q.   Madam [Realtime transcript read in error "Madam damn"], you don't

17     know that.

18        A.   I know it, I know it.

19        Q.   But you have to know things that --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Don't argue with the witness.

21             I'm doubting the relevance of this line of questions.

22             Ms. Sutherland, you wanted to raise something?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was going to say, Mr. Karadzic

24     put a question to the witness:

25             "Did you ever hear of the family Nevstrujev," sorry for my

Page 1987

 1     mispronunciation.

 2             The witness said:  "No, I never heard of that family."

 3             But then he proceeded to say:

 4             "Do you know that she was taken from her apartment," and so

 5     forth, when the witness has clearly already said that she's never heard

 6     of the family name.  So the next question is, in my respectful opinion,

 7     superfluous.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I can't agree more.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, we'll have a break for 25 minutes now, and after

10     which you should conclude your cross-examination in an hour's time.  And

11     concentrate on relevant questions.

12             Twenty-five minutes.

13                           --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 4.05 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to introduce your new member,

16     Mr. Tieger?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             We're joined by Ms. Carolyn Edgerton, and she will be leading the

19     next witness.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Since I have only another hour left, I would like to speed things

23     along, and I would like to eliminate some of the documents and video

24     materials that I wanted to show.

25             Could I please start with 1D1000.  That's a video-clip.  I will

Page 1988

 1     have some questions for the witness about people depicted in the

 2     video-clip.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you have it on the screen, madam, in e-court?

 5        A.   No.  Where is it?

 6        Q.   Do you know this person?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Who is that?

 9        A.   That's Professor Dr. Mirko Sosic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Could the first clip be played.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's no sound.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "To leave the town happened on

15     August the 14th when I came to work, two haggard nurses told me that one

16     of our colleagues was brought dead and massacred that night.  That

17     man was Professor Dr. Milutin Najdanovic."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could we please pause.

19        Q.   Did you know Professor Najdanovic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   He was a famous professor, doctor at the thoracic surgery?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And he worked with Professor Sosic, Dr. Dosendo [phoen], and

24     others?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 1989

 1        Q.   And he was married to the daughter of Isak Samokovlija, the great

 2     author?

 3        A.   I wouldn't know that.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Was that a good man, an imminent person in good

 5     standing as a doctor?

 6        A.   As far as I know, yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we continue at 33:59.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "His body was deformed.  He had

11     about 14 knife stabs.  He was fired in the mouth, and he was found on the

12     pavement in front of the Zetra during the night.  And because of all

13     that, his body was not recognisable.  They called one of the paramedics

14     who were on duty that night, and that person identified him.  That was

15     the crucial moment when I realised that nothing was left for me there,

16     that maybe I would be the next victim."

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Did you know what had happened to Professor Najdanovic?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   And did you hear that he had been killed?

21        A.   Yes, I heard that he had been killed, that actually something had

22     happened to him, but I didn't hear of the details.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 1D01006.

24     Let's see how things were before the war, before the war, a few months

25     before the war, in your hospital.  1D1006.

Page 1990

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Yes.  It was in December 1991.

 3     While I was entering the hospital, some beardless man in berets, armed

 4     with Klashnikovs, that were armed -- pointed the gun into me, and they

 5     asked me, Who are you?  I said that I was a doctor and that I worked

 6     there.  What are you carrying?  I said that I was carrying my purse, my

 7     things.  They started to search me.  That was December, much before the

 8     war.  It was a few months before the war.  Then I came in and asked my

 9     colleagues, the doctors, what had happened over the night.  I asked who

10     it was who was terrorising the doctors.  And they told me that some

11     measures of caution had to be put in place because the well-known leader

12     of one paramilitary unit had been wounded and put on trauma, and his

13     forces were controlling the whole hospital, who entered, who exited.  But

14     that was much before the war, you know.  And we, the doctors, we were

15     infuriated.  We decided to call the police.  We called the police, the

16     commander of the police, Bjelave, and the police told us, There's nothing

17     we can do, and they hung up.  The war actually started much before we

18     could hear the first shots."

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Is it possible that you were the only one who did not see what

21     was happening in the hospital in December 1991?  That hospital was

22     occupied; did you know?  Did you see that the hospital had been occupied

23     by his paramilitary units?

24        A.   The ER is a bit further from our ward, as you know, and in the

25     hospital there are security people who were standing at the gate, at the

Page 1991

 1     entrance to the hospital.  And whenever we, the staff, went through,

 2     nobody ever searched me.  So what Professor Sosic is saying here, I

 3     really don't know anything about that.  He was a very nice gentleman.

 4     His wife worked at my ward.  She had retired before the war started.  And

 5     I have to tell you, honestly, that I was very surprised when he had left

 6     our country -- our part of the town, because when doctors leave, that's

 7     very difficult.  And I don't know why he left, I really don't know.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  It is true that the ER is a bit further, but

 9     Professor Sosic said that the entire hospital was occupied, that there

10     were paramilitaries everywhere.

11             Can we now look at 1D1002.

12             Do you know the person who's going to appear on the screen?

13        A.   I don't know.  What's his name?

14        Q.   Dr. Marko Vukovic.  Is this Dr. Marko Vukovic?

15        A.   Yes, I believe so.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "On 2nd January, five men came to

18     me and said, We are the police.  Are you Vukovic?  Yes, that's me.  Open

19     the door.  One of them pointed an automatic gun at me, and the other one

20     pointed some strong light into my eyes.  The other three men entered into

21     my house, rampaging around.  They said to me, Get ready immediately.  One

22     of them approached quite incorrectly and telling me to get dressed and

23     wear my clothes, and then they put me in the van to look for their

24     Dr. Veljkov.  He lived in Kosevsko Brdo, but he was not at home.  They

25     took Dr. Sabljak, a Croat, and they put him next to me, and then they

Page 1992

 1     took us both towards the hospital in Kosevo, looking for Dr. Veljkov.

 2     They didn't find him.  They called Dr. Kafka in Dolac-Malta, and

 3     then the next day they brought Dr. Veljkov and a certain gynaecologist.

 4     I think his name was Mandic or something similar.  He works now as a

 5     gynaecologist in Podgorica.  They didn't beat us.  They took us to the

 6     police station.  There, we stayed over the night, the next day and the

 7     following night, and then they took us to the Central Prison, and we were

 8     sentenced.  I got 28 months, Kafka got 32.  His sentence was the longest.

 9     Igor Sabljak was lucky.  When he proved that he was a Croat, he was

10     released.  He was arrested because his wife was in Sremska Mitrovica.

11     That's why they thought that he was a Serb.  Unfortunately, he had the

12     worst destiny.  The third day after his arrest, his father hanged

13     himself - he was also a doctor - and his mother ended up in the hospital,

14     in the Intensive Care Unit, as a patient with a heart condition.  The

15     charges against us changed every so often and we lodged a complaint.  The

16     first one was for genocide.  Then another charge was for leaving the

17     military forces, even though we didn't have that kind of obligation

18     because we had our job obligation.  Then we were charged with abandoning

19     our work obligation, when we filed complaints, that they did that,

20     avoiding military obligation, for we did not have it at all.  As for our

21     other complaints, they put all the charges for the genocide, they left

22     the complaints for the co-operation with the enemy.  It was the charge

23     for taking us before the Court."

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Madam, Ms. Zaimovic, these were no longer paramilitary

Page 1993

 1     formations.  This was a state structure.  People were being sentenced to

 2     28 months in prison.  The young Kafka was sentenced to 32 months.

 3     Kafka's father is or was the old Kafka, a renowned doctor in Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right, and he died before the war.

 5        Q.   You see this poor man, Dr. Sabljak, was fortunate because he was

 6     a Croat, but his father committed suicide, hanged himself, and his mother

 7     had a heart attack.  Did you know that the state was treating doctors

 8     this way in the middle of Sarajevo?

 9        A.   I didn't know about that.  Marko Vukovic worked in the ER,

10     whereas Dejan Kafka fled from pediatric surgery, and they probably

11     arrested him then and tried him.  What they are speaking about to you or,

12     rather, on television, may be war propaganda that you conceived of

13     together with them.

14             I think that everyone should be heard so that they could tell the

15     real truth.  When they came to you, they probably had to say all sorts of

16     things under duress so that you would trust them, and that it would be a

17     type of war propaganda.  That's what I think, at least.  And I don't

18     think it's fair from Vukovic or from Kafka, we took such good care of

19     them.  I think I can really say that we were so gentle to them that our

20     own doctors were jealous because we took such care of them.  We caressed

21     them, if I can put it that way.

22        Q.   I wouldn't mind caressing, myself.  This looked like torture,

23     though.  How could they invent this kind of thing, renowned university

24     professors, great surgeons?  How could they invent things like this?

25             D01003.  Can we see that now so we can see what the result was --

Page 1994

 1        A.   If these two or three men invented all of this --

 2        Q.   Sorry, Ms. Zaimovic, but what could have the young Kafka have

 3     done wrong?  How could he be sentenced to 32 months in prison?

 4        A.   He left all the wounded, and it was his duty to stay by them.

 5        Q.   Oh, Dr. Sosic; right, yes.  Now let's see what the outcome was of

 6     all of this.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "This is just an example,

 9     illustrating that these men, these 400 doctors, were not fleeing because

10     they thought that they were faring well, but because their lives were

11     threatened.  We as civilians couldn't do anything."

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   You heard Professor Sosic, who says, 400.  I have a list of 250

14     doctors, but every day I am receiving information as people are watching

15     these proceedings.  400 doctors left Sarajevo illegally, crossing the

16     lines.  Madam, was that the kind of caressing that you were involved in,

17     that they had to flee from Sarajevo to the mountains as refugees?  Were

18     they fleeing from something good?

19        A.   I'll answer that question.

20             Dr. Sosic left because he had a weekend cottage in Pale and he

21     had a place to go to together with his wife and two children, two sons.

22     As for the other doctors, they all had their own reasons why they left.

23     However, as a rule, once war had broken out, none of them should have

24     left town.  Had they stayed on, nothing would have happened to any one of

25     them.

Page 1995

 1             On your territory where you were, every Muslim who stayed on was

 2     either killed or expelled.  That was not the case in Sarajevo.

 3             So this war propaganda that I hear from Dr. Sosic, from his

 4     mouth, and I had endless respect for him, he was such a fine man, and his

 5     wife as well, now I'm truly disappointed.

 6        Q.   Madam, you say that nothing would have happened to them had they

 7     stayed on.  Did Professor Najdanovic stay on, and was he stabbed 14

 8     times, and was he shot in the mouth?  What happened to him?

 9        A.   Please don't ask me about that.  I just heard that he got killed.

10     Now, what happened, actually, whether he stayed, or whether he fled, and

11     whether he was caught, I really don't know what actually happened.

12        Q.   Sorry, but this sounds like what Mr. Izetbegovic said when

13     Minister Ostojic was hit with an iron bar in the head.  Izetbegovic said,

14     Well, he probably got involved in a fight.  This man was massacred.

15        A.   Dear me, Mr. Karadzic.  The number of people you massacred, are

16     you aware of that?  You keep talking to me about some kind of massacres,

17     and I want to tell you how many children you massacred in Sarajevo; 1.601

18     child.

19        Q.   We will still --

20             JUDGE KWON:  You have spent 20 [sic] hours getting nothing from

21     this witness.  You played this tape -- did I say "20 hours"?  Twenty

22     minutes.  But the witness didn't come from any part of this tape.  It's

23     totally a waste of time.  Discuss with your legal adviser how to properly

24     use your variable time in the courtroom.

25             Let's move on to another topic.  Otherwise, let's conclude.

Page 1996

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but I think that the

 2     witness confirmed that she knew both persons involved, both doctors, both

 3     Vukovic and Sosic, Professor Sosic.  And she confirmed that they worked

 4     there, and the reputation they had.  I think this is recognised.

 5     Ms. Zaimovic doesn't want to admit that these things happened, but she

 6     did recognise these people.

 7             Can these videos be admitted into evidence?

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the fact that she recognises the

11     doctors is no basis for having the rest of the videotape admitted.

12     They're quite similar just to witness statements.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any reason to distinguish it with a

14     witness statement, as you said.

15             The Chamber will confer.

16             Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

18             I would just point out the witness did confirm more than just

19     that these people existed; that she knew them.  She confirmed elements of

20     what they said, that they'd left, and that some of the events are, in

21     fact, correct.  I think that's enough of a threshold to distinguish this

22     from some of the documents that you've excluded and should be admitted.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But the evidence remains in the transcript regarding

24     the recognition of certain persons.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, the video itself --

Page 1997

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And as to the content of it.  And then we haven't

 2     heard about the origin of this film yet, and who produced, and she didn't

 3     confirm any of the real content of it except for the recognition.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  She did confirm some of the elements of what was

 5     said by the person on the video, and I think you're making a very high

 6     bar to admission of evidence if you expect that everything in the

 7     document has to be confirmed or authenticated in that way.  So at least

 8     I think there's a threshold that's been met, and perhaps it's difficult

 9     to pin-point exactly or calibrate exactly what that threshold is.  But

10     according to Judge Morrison's earlier statement, I think that we've at

11     least had enough indication that there's a recognition of some of the

12     elements in the statement for it to be admitted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  My point is whether this witness is the

14     proper witness through whom this evidence can be introduced.

15             The Chamber will confer.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will admit it by majority, me

18     dissenting, and then it will be given the number.

19             This consists of several clips, and the Chamber needs to confer

20     again.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  All of them which you were shown.  I take it

23     the numbers shown so far is:  1000 -- let's give the numbers.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1000 will be Exhibit D130; 1D1006

Page 1998

 1     will be Exhibit D131; 1D1002 will be Exhibit D132; and 1D1003 will be

 2     Exhibit D133.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

 6             Since both Prosecution and the witness have questioned certain

 7     matters - the Prosecution questioned the source and the witness said that

 8     Vukovic deserved 28 months in prison because he left his job - I would

 9     like to have a video-clip of 30 seconds played now.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Madam, do you know this doctor on the screen?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Zijo Avdic?

14        A.   I don't know him.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we play this so that we would

16     hear how much they worked, both him and Dr. Vukovic, incessantly.

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It went on -- I don't know, lots of

18     operations, minor ones and serious ones, and we finished at 5.00 in the

19     morning.  After the sentence, we filed a complaint and were taken back to

20     prison.  Of course, we're waiting for the judgement to be final."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please rewind this so that

22     we hear that "My boss, Dr. Vukovic, also did this."

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "And then this went on.  I don't

25     even know how many operations, minor ones, bigger ones.  We finished at

Page 1999

 1     5.00 in the morning.  And it doesn't have to do only with me.  It also

 2     has to do with my boss, Dr. Vukovic, who was working at 5.00 in the

 3     morning, and then it went on and on.  I don't even know how long these

 4     operations went on, minor ones, major ones; 5.00 in the morning.

 5             "After the judgement, we were taken back to prison, and we filed

 6     a complaint, of course.  And we were waiting for the judgement to become

 7     final, but by then we were exchanged."

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So, Ms. Zaimovic, Dr. Zijo Avdic said that he was not leaving the

10     operations room, he wasn't, and his boss, Dr. Vukovic, he did not leave

11     at all.  He worked as hard as possible, and he was sentenced to 28

12     months, and finally he was exchanged as a regular prisoner.  He never

13     filed a bullet, he had not sinned at all.  What do you say to that?

14        A.   I don't know what to say.  Dr. Vukovic worked at ER; very hard,

15     at that.  I don't know what happened, why he fled.  Was it due to your

16     propaganda?  Was that why he had to leave?  I don't have an answer to

17     that question.

18             As for his sentence, I really can't say anything about it.  It's

19     people who are involved in that kind of work that can say something.

20        Q.   He was not sent to prison.  While he was waiting for the sentence

21     of 28 months to start, he was exchanged like a regular prisoner or like a

22     combatant that had been taken prisoner, but he, on the contrary, had been

23     working day and night in your hospital.  Thank you.

24             Can we have this video-clip admitted into evidence, because it

25     explains that these people were tried for nothing.

Page 2000

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Just one moment, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What is the 65 ter number of this?  If Mr. Karadzic

 4     could confirm that.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The same, the number is the same.

 6     It's just a different part.  This was telecast from Muslim Television,

 7     the state television from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  1002 is the number.  It's

 8     within 1002.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, for the same reasons, I would

10     object to this clip.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But, unfortunately, this is part of the exhibit

12     we've already admitted.  So on that basis, let's proceed.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to save time.  However,

14     since both the witness and the Prosecution asked about the source, they

15     led to all of this.  I had to play this clip as well.

16             Can I ask for -- can I ask for a statement to be placed on the

17     ELMO, please, a statement by yet another doctor.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Have you heard of Dr. Vladimir Simunovic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Is he a Croat?

22        A.   I don't know what his ethnicity is, but I know that he was a

23     neurosurgeon.

24        Q.   And he came in through the same door like you did?

25        A.   Yes, yes, the same door that I did, until neurosurgery was moved

Page 2001

 1     to ER.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I've just been handed a

 3     piece of paper.  I've got no idea what it is.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's what we got from the

 6     Prosecution.  There's a number up there.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I realise that, but, I mean, I don't know the

 8     65 ter number, I don't know the purpose of this.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  By now you should know the rule.  You should inform

10     the opposing party, the Prosecution, the documents you are going to use

11     in advance, as well as its 65 ter number.  Was it not listed in the list

12     of the Defence exhibits to be used?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you see -- well, it must have

14     been a mistake.  But we simply don't have enough resources, we don't have

15     enough people.  All of us are extremely busy, and it just happened this

16     way.  It's just one sheet of paper, but it's part of all of this evidence

17     about everything that happened in the hospital where Ms. Zaimovic worked.

18             I kindly ask that this be allowed now.  But, believe me, we don't

19     have the resources, we don't have enough people.  They're working at full

20     steam, but one of them soon will not even get any pay for what he's

21     doing.

22             JUDGE KWON:  That can't be the reason, and by now you should

23     be -- you should have been familiarised with the rule.

24             Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, there's no translation, it's in

Page 2002

 1     B/C/S.  I've got no idea --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's see how we can get on with it.  Let's

 3     put it on the ELMO, and then let's see whether Ms. Zaimovic knows

 4     anything about it.

 5             What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The answer I got was that

 7     Ms. Zaimovic knew Dr. Vladimir Simunovic, a very well-known younger

 8     doctor, an ethnic Croat, and he made a statement when he managed to

 9     escape from Sarajevo.  He made a statement at Ilidza, and this is what he

10     says:  The second paragraph:

11             "We have been informed that over the past few days, about 150

12     wounded soldiers from Azici were brought in."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   That's what you confirmed, that there were a lot of wounded

15     soldiers in Azici, where your son was?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   "Doctors in hospital are being closely observed, and often they

18     are being threatened with weapons, saying that they have to save some

19     patients who had been brought in half dead.  It is particularly difficult

20     for doctors who are ethnic Serbs, and Croats as of late as well.  We have

21     also been informed that within the compound of the Kosevo Hospital, in

22     the old laundry room and the restaurant above the ear department, there

23     is the military police, consisting of about 200 men.  They are commanded

24     by Almir Husic, and he's using the pseudonym 'Kinez.'  Near the Civil

25     Engineering Faculty, there are some artillery weapons that are often

Page 2003

 1     firing, and in the tunnel of Ciglane, two armoured vehicles can be seen."

 2             And then down towards the bottom, it says:

 3             "Out of the doctors who are ethnic Muslim who are too extreme,

 4     the following should be mentioned:  Dr. Faruk Kulenovic,

 5     Dr. Mufid Lazovic, Dr. Faris Gavrankapetanovic, Dr. Goran Dzinic, who are

 6     underrating Serbs in any way, and they are prepared to exchange for the

 7     ideas of Alija Izetbegovic their doctors' clothes for military uniforms."

 8             What do you say to that?

 9        A.   I say that these are lies, and I'm sure that a doctor who wanted

10     to leave town under the pressure exerted by your machinery said all of

11     this so that you would let him leave Bosnia.  This is such a lie.  I wish

12     I could see him myself and tell him that to the face.  This is a pure

13     lie.

14        Q.   That means, Ms. Zaimovic, that in Kosevo, where I had spent 50

15     years, only nurses tell the truth and the doctors lie as a rule; is that

16     what you're saying?

17        A.   What you have just said is a lie.  Please do not answer

18     questions.  I was not speaking about everybody.  What Dr. Simunovic said

19     under pressure, I'm sure it was under pressure, and the pressure was put

20     on him in order for him to be able to leave.  That's how your machinery

21     worked, and that's why he put all Bosnian doctors to shame.  And they

22     worked day and night saving everybody, not even looking at their names,

23     who they were.  They treated everybody as if they were their own

24     children.  Please do not say those words.

25        Q.   Let me just remind you, Madam.  He had already left Sarajevo, he

Page 2004

 1     had already left Sarajevo, and he was telling why he left, and he was

 2     telling what was going on in your city, under your authorities, in your

 3     hospital, and you don't know anything about that.  All the doctors lie.

 4     Four-hundred doctors ran away, and you say that it was without any reason

 5     at all or under my pressure.  How should I have done -- exerted any

 6     pressure in the Muslim part of Sarajevo?

 7        A.   It was your pressure.  They left because they wanted to save

 8     their families.  Most of them left in order to save their families, and

 9     most left under your pressure, because you wanted them to leave.  You

10     wanted to have a better opportunity to shell Sarajevo and kill people.

11     That was your goal.  You always appealed to them, and they finally

12     decided to save their families.

13             And now what I've just read is nothing but a blatant lie.  I

14     would like to look at this doctor in the eye and ask him about this, and

15     I will do it if I ever come across him walking through Sarajevo.

16        Q.   Do you know that all those people left their apartments and all

17     of their property in Sarajevo, and you're still saying that it was

18     because of me?  Croats, Jews, everybody left their jobs, salaries,

19     apartments, painters?  This Simunovic was a collector of paintings.  We

20     all know that.  So you're saying that they left all of that because of

21     me?

22        A.   What are material things?  Material things are nothing.  During

23     the war, the only thing that mattered was life.  You destroyed

24     everything.  You expelled thousands upon thousands of people.  You

25     confiscated everything they had.  Your warriors took gold from our women.

Page 2005

 1     You killed anybody, anywhere.  And what you are saying now, let me tell

 2     you, that people left Sarajevo and they left their apartments behind.

 3     What happened to them, I don't know, but I suppose that people sheltered

 4     refugees in those apartments.  And what you are saying, Mr. Karadzic,

 5     now, you should be ashamed when you compare us in Sarajevo, that you

 6     pounded all the time, your people who slaughtered, killed, children,

 7     women, expelled poor old people from their homes.  How can you even sleep

 8     after all that?  I look you in the eye, I have turned towards you.  Look

 9     at me.  Can you go to sleep without dreaming about Croat and Serbian

10     mothers who had loved their children?  Can you do that?  I'm talking to

11     you as a mother, as a woman who doesn't know what arms are, who didn't

12     know what a war was, but now knows what killing is.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind what Judge Baird has advised

15     you, Ms. Zaimovic.  Please try to answer the question.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Just one more question, and then I will say goodbye to you.

18             Madam, you are saying that 15 professors lied, 400 doctors left

19     everything they had in Sarajevo because they loved me and my political

20     ideas, and you're the only person telling the truth.

21             I would like to thank you for coming here.  Say hello to my

22     friend Islam and your son, whom I don't know.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have told only the truth from my

24     soul, and I believe that it will be proven before this Trial Chamber.

25             I apologise to the Trial Chamber for having said things that were

Page 2006

 1     not really within the protocol of this institution.  I apologise.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask whether this

 3     document can be admitted, because the lady said that she knew

 4     Dr. Simunovic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, she said nothing about the statement.  It will

 6     not be admitted.

 7             Ms. Sutherland, do you have redirect?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Zaimovic, that concludes your evidence.  Thank

10     you very much for your coming once again to the Tribunal, all the way

11     from your place, to give it.  And I hope you will have a safe trip back

12     and stay well.

13             Now you are free to go.  Thank you very much.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I seek your advice as to how we

16     could identify --

17             JUDGE KWON:  You may go now, yes.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You have mentioned that, together

20     with the Prosecution, we could try and establish the position of Osmice

21     in the map that the witness looked at and could not make that

22     identification, because she was not able to identify Osmice in the map.

23     But she knows where Osmice is.  How can we try and identify that place in

24     the map?  That would be of some assistance to us.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Discuss it with Mr. Robinson.

Page 2007

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  The short answer is probably that the Prosecutor

 2     won't disagree with the distance between two places on the map, which has

 3     a scale attached to it, and it can become an agreed document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let's bring in the next witness.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I be excused?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  The process of moving from witness to witness, and

11     leading attorney to leading attorney, involves logging on and logging

12     off, and that will take a few minutes.  I leave it to the Court, if it

13     wants to remain sitting or take a five-minute break, but we'll be logging

14     off of one system and logging on to another.  It will just take a few

15     minutes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  If we have a 25 minutes' break, then we can go

17     through until 7.00, it will be about one and three-quarters of an hour.

18     It may be too long, given the length of the tape.

19             So we'll have a -- yes.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

21             There is going to be some dispute about the 65 ter documents.  I

22     don't know if we can maybe discuss that with Mr. Tieger and myself and

23     the Chamber while the other attorneys are --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  There's a whole host of documents that the

Page 2008

 1     Prosecution has identified as associated exhibits with the 92 ter

 2     package.  And applying the Chamber's rule that the witness has to have

 3     adopted some portion of the contents of those documents or have knowledge

 4     of it, I find about 30 documents that don't seem to meet that criteria.

 5     And so I have a list of those documents which at this time we don't feel

 6     should be admitted.  I can give you some examples or I can give you the

 7     whole list.  Unfortunately, I didn't prepare anything in writing because

 8     I was reading these -- going through this shortly after you made your

 9     ruling.  When I came this morning, I was not expecting to be objecting to

10     these documents.

11             JUDGE KWON:  There are some of those documents that will be shown

12     to the witness during the course of his direct examination?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct, Your Honour.  But I must say that

14     in light of scheduling issues that my colleague Mr. Tieger addressed you

15     on earlier today, we have abbreviated or shortened the number that would

16     otherwise be shown to the witness, given that they're already fully dealt

17     with and integrated into his amalgamated statement.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Given that, could you put those numbers in writing,

19     as well as brief reasons, so that we can deal with it the first thing

20     tomorrow morning, after having heard his direct examination?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I'll do that.

22             JUDGE KWON:  That would be helpful.

23             Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Well, at a minimum, Your Honour, I'd say that the

25     associated exhibits in connection with this witness would fall into the

Page 2009

 1     same category as the previous witnesses.  That's how this witness was

 2     prepared, and that's how the examination was dealt with, that's how the

 3     documents were tendered.  If there's to be any departure from that,

 4     I think it would have to be following some express guidance from the

 5     Court, and I don't think this witness would fall within that category.

 6     I think that this is -- we should clearly proceed with this witness, as

 7     we have with the previous, and the determination of the associated

 8     exhibits should be made on the same basis; that is, whether they

 9     reflected -- whether they constituted an aspect of his previous

10     examination.  And I think that would be the only fair way to proceed,

11     particularly, as Mr. Edgerton noted, since we reduced the length of the

12     examination-in-chief.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Now I understand the complaint of Judge Lattanzi.  I

14     waited for the French translation to be concluded.

15             There's criteria or requirements for those documents to be

16     admitted pursuant to 92 ter, or these things having, in my opinion,

17     clarified -- have been made clear through our past decisions, and then

18     the Chamber will consider Mr. Robinson's arguments in that regard.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Welcome, Mr. Harland.

21             If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

22             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

23     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  DAVID HARLAND

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please make yourself comfortable.

Page 2010

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And my apologies for the

 4     brief delay, for the technical reasons, and it's been some time since

 5     I've appeared in Chambers.  I had to find my way, somewhat.

 6             Now, that having been found, perhaps I can begin.

 7                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 8        Q.   Mr. Harland, could you please state first your name for the trial

 9     record, your full name?

10        A.   I'm David John Harland.

11        Q.   Now, you've provided a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor

12     regarding your experiences in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1998, testified

13     before a Chamber of this Tribunal in the Slobodan Milosevic case in 2003,

14     and again in the Dragomir Milosevic case in 2007; is that correct?

15        A.   I think so.  I'm not sure about the date of the original

16     statement.

17        Q.   Did you visit the OTP, the Office of the Prosecutor, again in

18     2009 and prepare a statement consolidating the previously-recorded

19     evidence we've just referred to, and referencing and commenting on a

20     range of associated documents?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, prior to coming to court to testify today, have you had an

23     opportunity to review that statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, on review of that document, is it correct that you had a

Page 2011

 1     number of clarifications and corrections you wished to make?

 2        A.   Yes, small ones.

 3        Q.   Did you record those changes in a further written document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, if examined on all the same matters that led to the original

 6     statement and the testimonies you've given on two previous occasions that

 7     were consolidated into this statement, and asked the same questions,

 8     would you provide the same information to the Court?

 9        A.   I hope so, yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, that having been said, could I

11     tender then for admission, please, 65 ter 90011, which is Mr. Harland's

12     consolidated statement, and 65 ter 22799 into evidence.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, they will be admitted as ...?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 9011 will be Exhibit P820, and 65 ter

16     22799 will be Exhibit P821.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

19             Now with Your Honour's permission, then, if I may, I'd like to

20     read a short summary of the written evidence of Mr. Harland.

21             Mr. Harland worked for the United Nations in Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina, in various capacities, from 1993 through to 1999.  From May

23     1993 to January 1995, he was a civil affairs officer with UNPROFOR

24     BH Command.  From January to August 1995, he served as the head of

25     Civil Affairs for Sector Sarajevo.  In August 1995, he was deployed back

Page 2012

 1     to BH Command, where he worked as the political adviser to the UNPROFOR

 2     BH commander, General Rupert Smith.

 3             After the conflict ended, Mr. Harland remained for three years,

 4     serving as head of Civil Affairs for the United Nations Mission in Bosnia

 5     and Herzegovina, otherwise known as UNMIBH.  He later returned to

 6     research and write a report on the fall of Srebrenica, on behalf of the

 7     Secretary-General.

 8             From 1993 to 1995, Mr. Harland frequently participated in

 9     meetings with leaders of the warring factions, including the Bosnian Serb

10     leadership, and, in particular, the accused.  During this period,

11     Mr. Harland was also the principal political drafter for UNPROFOR and, as

12     such, was responsible for authoring contemporaneous reports, including

13     "Weekly Political Assessments," "Sector Sarajevo Weekly Sitreps,"

14     agreements, and other correspondence.

15             Mr. Harland recalls arriving in Sarajevo in May 1993 and finding

16     an eerily empty city.  Anti-sniping barricades had been hastily erected,

17     and people would leave their homes only for short periods to collect food

18     or water.  All areas of the city showed damage from shelling or gun-fire.

19             Mr. Harland observed and was aware of shelling of the city of

20     Sarajevo by Serb forces.  While some shelling was used to repel Bosnian

21     government offensives, often the shelling he observed was either

22     disproportionate retaliation or, to quote, "background terror shelling,"

23     being shelling that had no identifiable military tactical purpose, but

24     seemed intended to keep the civilian population of Sarajevo locked down

25     and fearful.

Page 2013

 1             Mr. Harland also observed and was made aware of sniping of

 2     civilians by Serb forces.  On two occasions, he personally witnessed a

 3     civilian fatally wounded immediately after being targeted by a sniper.

 4     Mr. Harland concluded that through this type of shelling, sniping, and by

 5     restriction placed on utilities and freedom of movement, Dr. Karadzic and

 6     the Bosnian Serb leadership were able to put pressure on Sarajevo, and

 7     would modulate this pressure for political ends.  Mr. Harland describes

 8     this modulation as like turning "a spigot of terror."

 9             The shelling and sniping of civilians by Serb forces was

10     frequently raised at meetings with the accused as well as other members

11     of the Bosnian Serb leadership.  The accused represented in meetings that

12     he would or sometimes had issued orders to Serb forces to stop shelling

13     and sniping.  The cessation of sniping after the signing of the

14     Anti-Sniping Agreement in August 1994 suggested to Mr. Harland that

15     sniping activity was centrally controlled.

16             Mr. Harland was in Sarajevo when the first Markale Market

17     incident occurred in February 1994.  He states that circumstantial

18     evidence showed that the Serbs were responsible.  He also states that the

19     suggestion by the Bosnian Serb leadership at the time, that it was a hoax

20     perpetrated by the Muslims using mannequin dummies or body parts flown in

21     from the United States, was "outlandish, not to say a little deranged."

22             Mr. Harland witnessed a deterioration of the situation in Bosnia

23     and Herzegovina in 1995.  Shelling and sniping in Sarajevo increased in

24     May and June 1995, and Karadzic imposed severe restrictions on utilities

25     and humanitarian access into the city.  Bosnian Serb forces employed

Page 2014

 1     large and powerful improvised rockets against the city.  The use of this

 2     type of weapon was directly protested by UNPROFOR to the Sarajevo

 3     Romanija Corps commander, Dragomir Milosevic.

 4             Mr. Harland was also in Sarajevo when the second Markale Market

 5     incident occurred in August 1995.  He testifies that UNPROFOR's experts

 6     immediately concluded that the mortar bomb came from Bosnian Serb

 7     positions in the area of Lukavica.  Comments by General Smith at the

 8     time, that there was some doubt as to the origin of fire, were made only

 9     to ensure that the Serbs were not alerted to the fact that he had

10     requested NATO to begin air-strikes against Serb positions, and thus to

11     allow for the safe extraction of peacekeepers from Bosnian-Serb-held

12     territory, without which the air campaign could not have gone ahead.

13             That concludes the summary, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Harland, if I may, I'd like to ask you a number of

15     questions drawing upon and highlighting some aspects of the evidence

16     recorded in your statement of 2009.

17             First, you've had a longstanding career with the United Nations

18     by this date; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   How long have you been employed with the organisation?

21        A.   Continuously since 1991.

22        Q.   And what's your present title?

23        A.   I'm the director of United Nations peacekeeping operations for

24     Europe and Latin America.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If we could go back to your statement and your time

Page 2015

 1     in Sarajevo and in UNPROFOR.

 2             In paragraph 13 of this document, you described your functions in

 3     your role as civil affairs officer within BH Command as including:

 4     negotiations, analysis, reporting, and advising on political strategy.

 5     Is that correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Now, did these remain components of your work throughout your

 8     service for UNPROFOR?

 9        A.   Yes, though the interlocutors changed a bit.

10        Q.   In what regard did they change?

11        A.   Well, UNPROFOR, I mean, like all large organisations, had

12     headquarters at different levels.  It had a headquarters in Zagreb that

13     covered the whole of the former Yugoslavia.  It had a -- two levels of

14     headquarters in Sarajevo; one so-called BH Command, which was the

15     headquarters that covered all activities, operations of UNPROFOR

16     throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And I worked for most of my time at

17     that headquarters.  At the other end of the city, in the same city, was

18     their headquarters for the smaller Sector Sarajevo, which was just one of

19     three sectors within the Bosnia-Herzegovina command, and for a period I

20     worked at that subordinate Sector Sarajevo headquarters as its civilian

21     head.

22             When I was at the BH Command level, normally I would be there in

23     assistance to my superiors who were meeting with President Izetbegovic,

24     with Dr. Karadzic, and characters at that level.  When I was in

25     Sector Sarajevo, I was generally meeting on my own behalf with the mayors

Page 2016

 1     or the corps commanders on either side.

 2        Q.   Now, also in terms of your duties, at paragraph 17 of this

 3     statement from 2009, you noted you were also the principal political

 4     drafter for UNPROFOR; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   And was this -- this component of your function, did that

 7     continue throughout your service with UNPROFOR as well?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what did it comprise, that component of your function?

10        A.   Well, the UNPROFOR made regular reports to its headquarters in

11     Zagreb and New York; on a weekly basis, normally.  And I used a political

12     assessment, and I normally wrote it, at least for most of the war.

13     I think I was the longest serving UN official in Bosnia during the war,

14     so for most of the war I wrote the weekly assessment.  But then there

15     were reports of meetings or incidents.

16             So when there would be a meeting involving UNPROFOR with

17     President Izetbegovic or Dr. Karadzic or General Mladic or General Delic,

18     I would normally be present, and I would normally make a report of the

19     meeting and usually draft a comment or an analysis of it.  And so there

20     was both the regular reporting and the reporting of meetings.

21             There were also -- if there were incidents of special note, I

22     would -- like you mentioned the Markale, one incident, that it might

23     require a special cable or note, then normally I would draft it.

24        Q.   In addition to the individuals that you've just named,

25     President Izetbegovic, Dr. Karadzic, General Mladic, or General Delic,

Page 2017

 1     did you have other sources of information that you would rely on to

 2     prepare these reports and other documents?

 3        A.   Yes, a lot of them.  I don't know how far you want me to go, but,

 4     I mean, first of all, we maintained an active set of contacts in Sarajevo

 5     and in Pale.  So in Sarajevo, I would see almost every day

 6     representatives of the Bosnian government at the ministerial level.  The

 7     point of entry was usually -- for most of the conflict was

 8     Hasan Muratovic.  But on the Bosnian Serb side, we also kept in regular

 9     touch with Professor Koljevic, the vice-president; Mr. Krajisnik, the

10     speaker of the Assembly.  We also had a range of contacts in the

11     military, General Mladic, Milovanovic, and Generals Galic and Milosevic,

12     as well as their counterparts on the Bosnian side.  I'm working my way

13     down slowly, and I could go on for a very long time.  But suffice it to

14     say that this eventually reaches the soldiers we would meet at

15     check-points and people we would encounter on the street or in hospitals

16     or in morgues.  It was generally the job of Civil Affairs to keep a very

17     active network of interlocutors on all sides to be able to provide

18     multiple streams of information into our analysis.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, moving on to another subject, perhaps you could

20     tell us, did the topography of Sarajevo affect the nature of the conflict

21     around the city?

22        A.   Oh, yes, enormously.  I mean, Sarajevo, as the Court's probably

23     heard, lies in a narrow, steep valley.  It runs from west to east for,

24     I think, about 10 kilometres in a mountainous area in the middle of

25     Bosnia.  So because the floor of the valley is narrow and not terribly

Page 2018

 1     long, the population is highly concentrated.  And wherever you live in

 2     the city, you have the perception of being, you know, at the bottom of a

 3     bowl of mountains.  And for historical reasons that I think -- and

 4     geographical reasons that are well understood, but probably not so

 5     interesting to the Court, the Bosniak population in Sarajevo, as in

 6     almost all other areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina, tended to live on

 7     the -- in the urban areas, on the floors of these valleys.  And at normal

 8     times, I suppose it didn't matter.  But in the context of the war, it

 9     meant that the high ground throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, but, you

10     know, perhaps especially in Sarajevo, the high ground was dominated by

11     the Serbs, with their weaponry, and the low ground was a relatively

12     compact community of mainly Bosniaks.

13        Q.   Over the course of your service with UNPROFOR, did you see any

14     pattern or any dynamic to the conflict around the city?

15        A.   Yes.  The confrontation line didn't change very much during the

16     whole period that I was there.  In fact, it changed very little.  What

17     changed substantially was the volume of fire over the confrontation

18     line and the availability of the means of life for the civilian

19     population.  So, broadly speaking, there were seven or eight or nine

20     levers of control that the Serbs could try to exert on the population;

21     shelling, sniping, other small-arms fire, the passage of convoys of

22     humanitarian aid from the United Nations, the availability of gas, water,

23     and electricity, most of which had to flow into Bosnian

24     government-controlled territory from Bosnian-Serb-controlled territory.

25     So there was definitely a dynamic of the conflict that involved the

Page 2019

 1     increasing application of pressure, or what I sometimes call terror, by

 2     the Bosnian Serbs, and that is the sniping, and the shelling, and the

 3     restriction of water and gas, and the convoys and so on, and this would

 4     follow discernible patterns.

 5        Q.   Did you see those patterns as being linked to anything?

 6        A.   Well, first we felt that they were -- we -- there was quite a lot

 7     of evidence that they were centrally controlled, that is, that the

 8     sniping and the shelling would normally increase at the same time that

 9     there would be increasing restrictions on the movement of humanitarian

10     convoys, on the -- that there would be increasing restrictions on the

11     gas, water, or electricity.  So they were linked to each other, that is,

12     in the sense that they normally got better or worse, whether military or

13     civilian, in tandem, in concert.  Also, the overall modulation definitely

14     reflected the particular political context.

15        Q.   In what way?

16        A.   The most obvious way is that when there was an explicit threat of

17     intervention against the Bosnian Serbs, that the pressure would go

18     dramatically down, would be eased, until the immediate threat of military

19     intervention had passed.  When, on the other hand, there was little

20     threat, then, generally, the application of that spigot of terror, as I

21     called it, would go up.

22        Q.   Can you, for all of us, identify any manifestations of those --

23     or examples of these situations that you've described?

24        A.   I can, but I should say, in a way, it doesn't even need to be

25     proved.  I mean, the Bosnian Serb leadership would say so directly to us,

Page 2020

 1     that this was what was happening.

 2             But just to give an example, then:  I arrived early in the summer

 3     or late in the spring of 1993, just as the Serbs were about to begin an

 4     offensive in the area of Igman and Bjelasnica, close to Sarajevo.  That

 5     offensive, as usual with their military offensives, was successful.  But

 6     as it drew to its conclusion, the Western countries made -- a group of

 7     them, NATO -- including the Secretary-General, NATO made some explicit

 8     threats or explicit references to the possibility or the need to use

 9     air-strikes against Bosnian Serbs around Sarajevo.

10             At about this time, we would note -- so this is then middle or

11     late July.  We would notice a dramatic decline in the Serb shelling of

12     the down-town area or the sniping of civilian population.  Humanitarian

13     aid would be allowed to flow again.  Gas and water and electricity would

14     become more generally available.  And if one were to plot this on a graph

15     over time, one would see this sharp dip in the pressure, the terror,

16     being applied to the population of Sarajevo during my period after Igman,

17     the Igman offensive, certainly after Markale 1 incident in February of

18     1994, and then again when there was another round of threats by NATO, and

19     then again after Gorazde, and so on.  So the pattern was highly

20     discernible.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

22             Do you have something to say, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

24             First of all, Ms. Carolyn was kind enough to talk to me, and we

25     agreed that there would be nothing about feelings.

Page 2021

 1             Second of all, Mr. Harland has already made a judgement.  He

 2     already mentions the word "terror."  Could please somebody protect my

 3     interests?  Otherwise, I will have to go on objecting.  We have already

 4     agreed we would not be talking about feelings and other psychological

 5     elements, but, rather, just about facts.  This is a judgement before a

 6     judgement.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  You'll have the opportunity to cross-examine the

 8     witness during your cross-examination.

 9             Let's proceed, Ms. Edgerton.  I'm sorry.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  That's fine, Your Honour.  Thank you, but perhaps

11     I could use this to direct us to another topic.

12        Q.   Now, at page 70, line 21, of this transcript, and at another

13     occasion later, you've used -- you've referred to the word "terror," and

14     we noticed that you used that word in a number of contemporaneous

15     UNPROFOR documents you authored, some of which are referred to in your

16     statement, as well as in your statement itself.

17             And perhaps I could ask that 65 ter 10678 be called up in this

18     regard.

19             No, that's correct, there's not.  The document should be

20     available in English only.  Thank you very much.

21             Mr. Harland, do you see an image of a document on the screen in

22     front of you, the monitor in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you recognise this document?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2022

 1        Q.   Could you tell us what it is, please?

 2        A.   It is a Sector-Sarajevo-level weekly situation report, so it is a

 3     review of the main events relevant to UNPROFOR's mandate in the area of

 4     Sarajevo from the 8th of July, 1995.

 5        Q.   Did you write this document?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, if I could ask us all to move to e-court page 2 of this

 8     document, fifth paragraph down the page, that would be very helpful.

 9     Now, I'll just see if I have counted right.  Yes, I think so.

10             Could I direct your attention, Mr. Harland, to the paragraph that

11     begins with the words:  "Sniping and mortaring ...," and ask you to read

12     to us these first two sentences.

13        A.   "Sniping and mortaring are still at a reasonably high level.

14     This seems to have no particular military value but contributes to a

15     general atmosphere of terror in the city.  Almost no civilians now use

16     the city's main east-west thoroughfare," so-called Sniper Alley, "so much

17     so that snipers who used to work that area now seem to have relocated ."

18        Q.   Now, do you recall, even broadly speaking, the safety and

19     security situation in the city of Sarajevo at around this time?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And what was that situation?

22        A.   It was very bad, I mean.  And when I used the word "terror," I

23     didn't mean it in any emotional way.  I simply tried to reflect the

24     feeling of the population as a result of these various levers of pressure

25     that I've described, the shelling and the sniping and the small arms and

Page 2023

 1     the lack of humanitarian assistance and so on.  I would be happy to use a

 2     different word if there were one the Court thought was suitable.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, if I may first, Your Honours, that having

 4     been heard, tender 65 ter 10678, please.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P822, Your Honour.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection as well.  I

 9     have an objection as well, in terms of other people's feelings, the

10     expression of other people's feelings.  I don't think that's right.

11             [In English] The feelings of the population --

12             JUDGE KWON:  We are dealing with the admission of documents.  And

13     as to the content, you can have ample opportunity to cross-examine

14     Mr. Harland during your cross-examination.

15             Let's proceed.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17        Q.   Now, in your statement, at paragraphs 32 and 33, you describe

18     three distinct forms of bombardment of Sarajevo by Serb forces, one

19     being, and I quote "tactical use of heavy weapons," the second being, and

20     I quote, "tit-for-tat," when Bosnian forces would fire some rounds onto

21     Serb-held territory and there would be a strong response by the Serbs,

22     and the third which you describe as "background terror," and that's a

23     quote, shelling with no identifiable military purpose.  Do you recall

24     that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2024

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I ask, then, that we bring up the next

 2     document, 65 ter 09599, please, Weekly Political Assessment 39, dated 3

 3     November 1993.

 4        Q.   Do you see the document on the screen before you, Mr. Harland?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise the document?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Did you draft the document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what is it?

11        A.   So this is from an earlier period in my life from the one you

12     mentioned last time, so this is when I was working at the BH Command,

13     that is, the higher-level headquarters.  And so this is the weekly

14     political assessment, so it's the weekly report that is sent to Zagreb

15     and New York, which seeks to describe and analyse the principal events

16     relevant to UNPROFOR's mandate from the preceding week.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we move over to, please, e-court page 7 of

18     this document.  And if I could draw everyone's attention to the first

19     paragraph at the top of the page.

20        Q.   Please, Mr. Harland, would you be able to read that first

21     paragraph for us into the record?

22        A.   This is like a trip to the optometrist:

23             "The Serbs -- "

24             Yes, the top -- the first paragraph?

25        Q.   First paragraph, please.

Page 2025

 1        A.   "The Serbs have been militarily more active than usual recently.

 2     They have not been trying to take territory, but their artillery has been

 3     busy.  Sarajevo and Gorazde have both been under heavy bombardment in the

 4     past week.  In response to BH mortar fire, the Old Town of Sarajevo

 5     received almost 500 shells in a one-hour period on 27 October.  The

 6     Old Town, which has the highest percentage of Muslims in any Sarajevo

 7     area, is densely populated."

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could I ask you, then, relating to the distinct forms

 9     of bombardment you described in your statement, which of the three types

10     of shelling was this?

11        A.   Well, if it was in response to mortar fire from the Army of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina, then -- from the Bosnian government army, then it was

13     the second type in the way I categorised them.  So, yeah, it was the

14     retaliatory fire.

15        Q.   Could you describe the size of area of the Old Town to us,

16     please, and give us an idea of the type of structures found in that part

17     of the city?

18        A.   Well, the heart of it is an area of a kilometre or so in radius

19     around the Bascarsija market-place, and it's a maze of little streets

20     that normally buildings of just one or two or sometimes three-storeys,

21     with little tiled roofs.  It's a densely-packed little picture of an

22     Ottoman city.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Whenever it's convenient, we could have a break.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  If I just tender this document, that would perhaps

Page 2026

 1     be, following that, an appropriate moment for the break.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted as ...?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P823, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We will have a 25 minutes' break.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  It's actually Edgerton, Your Honour, but we've

10     never had the pleasure.  So --

11             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  None needed, Your Honour.

13             If I may, then.

14        Q.   Mr. Harland, if we could perhaps move now over to the subject of

15     one of these levers of pressure, or another one of these levers of

16     pressure you referred to just a little while ago in your testimony.  I'd

17     like to ask you about sniping.

18             Was sniping of civilians in Bosnian-government-held territory by

19     Bosnian Serb forces prevalent throughout your tour in Sarajevo?

20        A.   Yes, though it varied a lot from time to time, the rate of fire.

21        Q.   But it was a constant feature, to the best of your recollection?

22        A.   Yes.  It almost disappeared during a short period in the autumn

23     of 2004, I think, but --

24             THE ACCUSED:  Leading questions.

25             THE WITNESS:  -- but it was, in general, prevalent at some level.

Page 2027

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Leading questions.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  He already answered.  But, yes, given the nature of

 4     92 ter evidence, we allowed, until objected to, to go on, leading

 5     questions.  But could you bear that in mind in further questions?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, and my apologies, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Did you make observations about its affect on the daily life of

 8     civilians?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what did you, yourself, see?

11        A.   Well, the -- between the shelling and the sniping, the basic

12     effect was to keep people off the streets.  When you entered Sarajevo,

13     you would not believe at all it was a city of 2- or 300.000 people.  It

14     was quiet, except for gun-fire.  The streets were mostly empty.  It's not

15     until you went into the entranceways and into people's apartments that

16     you noticed that the city was full.  So that was the first thing.

17             Specifically about sniping is that people, when they had to go

18     out, avoided the places that were exposed to sniper fire; open

19     intersections, any street that is perpendicular to the confrontation

20     line, and so on.

21        Q.   Did you see local inhabitants taking measures to protect

22     themselves from sniper fire?

23        A.   Yes, and that happened at all levels.  So individuals put up

24     blankets on ropes, or they covered windows, or they tipped over burnt-out

25     cars.  Also, the Bosnian government authorities erected barricades of

Page 2028

 1     cars and slabs of concrete to obscure the line of sight from Serbian-held

 2     positions.  And I should say UNPROFOR also did this.  UNPROFOR's

 3     preferred method was the placement of sea containers in blocks, like a

 4     child's Lego blocks, on a large scale to block the line of site from

 5     Serbian positions into the centre of the city.

 6        Q.   Have you, yourself, ever seen any incidents of sniping of

 7     civilians within the city?

 8        A.   Well, I was shot at a couple of times while in the city, and I

 9     never saw anybody being hit by sniper fire.  But I have certainly been,

10     many times, at an intersection where -- exposed to the confrontation

11     line, where suddenly there would be -- you know, several shots would ring

12     out, and people would spring back behind the protection and cower there

13     and wait or find another way to get past or to go home.  And a couple of

14     times I have -- twice, I arrived on the scene of a sniper attack just

15     after someone had been hit.

16        Q.   In those couple of times, did you see the victims?

17        A.   Yes.  Once, not well, in 1993.  I think it was a woman in,

18     I think, the Hrasno area, at a distance I was.  I was in my vehicle.  The

19     other time, I was walking down one of the main streets, the street that

20     before the war was known as Djure Djakovica, now I think Alipasina, the

21     street where our headquarter was located, and there was at least one shot

22     around the corner, and I rushed around the corner to find a group of

23     people wanting to surge forward to get to a teenage boy who was injured

24     next to a bicycle, and -- but fearing, and there was more firing and they

25     hung back.  But I never was actually watching when somebody was hit by a

Page 2029

 1     sniper.

 2        Q.   To move a little bit back to the beginning of your testimony, you

 3     spoke about the source of information you relied on in carrying out your

 4     function and preparing your assessments and recommendations, and you

 5     noted you took part in meetings with different leaders of the warring

 6     factions.  And I could also note in your statement, at paragraphs 15 to

 7     16, 19, to 47, to 266, you referred to those meetings.  And now I'd like

 8     to ask you for a little further detail in that regard.

 9             Were you involved, during the course of your service with

10     UNPROFOR, in meetings with Dr. Karadzic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And was that -- did those take place in any period in particular?

13        A.   Yes.  They all took place while I was one of the political

14     officers -- one of the civil affairs officers at BH Command, so that

15     means they took place between June of 1993 and the last days of 1994, or

16     perhaps the first days of 1995.

17        Q.   At those meetings, do you recall ever seeing or hearing

18     Dr. Karadzic issue military directives or give orders?

19             THE ACCUSED:  Leading question.

20             JUDGE KWON:  No, we do not agree.

21             If you could answer the question.

22             THE WITNESS:  I recall him saying, We have taken certain

23     decisions about certain military matters, and in the presence of

24     General Mladic and General Milovanovic, but I cannot say I ever directly

25     heard him order one of them to do something.  But he certainly spoke from

Page 2030

 1     authority, and even though, in particular, General Mladic would sometimes

 2     voice some separate opinion, he would indicate that he would -- he would

 3     do what Dr. Karadzic had said.

 4        Q.   And in one regard I note I didn't ask you for something earlier.

 5     I see, at page 81, line 18, you've mentioned the name of

 6     General Milovanovic, and I omitted earlier to ask you who

 7     General Milovanovic was, as far as you understood.

 8        A.   Well, at least during the time I was there, he seemed to be the

 9     Chief of Staff of the Bosnian Serb Army.

10        Q.   Now, on these occasions you've just mentioned at which

11     General Milovanovic would sometimes -- sorry, pardon me, at which

12     General Mladic would sometimes voice some separate opinion, he would

13     indicate that he would do what Dr. Karadzic said, could you pin-point

14     that, perhaps, in time?

15        A.   Well, the one that sticks in my memory is the one from the end of

16     the Igman crisis, so it must be August of 1993, where we had a meeting in

17     Pale and about whether or not Serb forces would withdraw from Mount Igman

18     and Bjelasnica, and the precise circumstances and conditions under which

19     they would withdraw.  And there was some degree of contention on the Serb

20     side.  General Mladic and also Dr. Plavsic were expressing some concern,

21     if I remember correctly, and making some arguments as to why it should

22     not be done or should not be done in a certain way, and then Dr. Karadzic

23     decided and said that it would be done and would be done in a particular

24     way.  And then, in fact, some of my colleagues went off with

25     General Mladic to survey the ground and to make the precise arrangements.

Page 2031

 1        Q.   Now, you've mentioned here, at page 82, line 14, the name of

 2     Dr. Plavsic.  And who is Dr. Plavsic, to the best of your knowledge?

 3        A.   She was vice-president of Republika Srpska.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, in regard to the Igman crisis that you've

 5     referred to, could I ask that 65 ter 10410A be called up, please.

 6             Could you move to page 2 of the English language document that we

 7     see on the screen in front of us, please.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   I take it, Mr. Harland, you see an image on the screen in front

 9     of you.  Does this document refer to the meeting in August 1993 that

10     you've just talked about at page 82 of the transcript?

11        A.   Well, I don't have page 82 of the transcript in front of me, I

12     don't think, but that's a description of the meeting I think we were

13     talking about, yeah.

14        Q.   If we could just -- if I could just ask you:  You wrote that

15     document; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes, but it has some terrible name misspelling.  So, yes, it

17     seems so.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could move to page 3 of this document,

19     please.

20             Actually, I'd like to direct us to the first paragraph at the

21     very top of page 3, but I see it begins the page previously.  And I

22     apologise to the Court.  I made every effort to get my page numbers

23     correct.

24             So could we go back to page 2, the paragraph at the bottom of the

25     page, yes, where we see the words:  "Karadzic appeared relaxed,

Page 2032

 1     confident, and co-operative."

 2        Q.   Could you please read this paragraph that flows from page 2 to

 3     page 3 onto the record?

 4        A.   "Karadzic appeared relaxed, confident and co-operative.  He

 5     presented proposals on Serb withdrawal from Mount Igman on the --"

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  And could we move to page 3, please.

 7             THE WITNESS:  "-- establishment of safe routes in and out of

 8     Sarajevo and on co-operation for the restoration of utilities.  He

 9     indicated that these Serb initiatives would encourage Izetbegovic to

10     rejoin the talks and would remove any suggestion of the use of

11     air-strikes."

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Is this an example of the modulation you've discussed in your

14     statement and in your testimony earlier?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, could I ask this document be

17     admitted, please, 10410A.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted as ...?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P824, Your Honours.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we move next to 65 ter 11287, please.  It's

22     a one-page document, and there should be an English translation

23     available.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Mr. Harland, do you see the document -- I'm sorry, the

25     magnification that I see of the English language document is a little bit

Page 2033

 1     too big and it cuts it off the screen.

 2        A.   No, mine is the -- on the left is the English translation of an

 3     order in B/C/S which appears on the right.

 4        Q.   But now I can see all the paragraphs.

 5             Mr. Harland, this is an order that, in the English translation,

 6     reads "Command of SRK," and is dated 11 August 1993.  And the name at the

 7     bottom of the document reads "Commander Brigadier-General Stanislav

 8     Galic."  Do you know who Commander Brigadier-General Stanislav Galic was?

 9        A.   Yes.  He was at this time, I think, the commander of the Sarajevo

10     Romanija Corps.  I mean, that is the main Serb military unit around

11     Sarajevo.

12        Q.   Can you place this document in context of the meeting you've just

13     discussed?

14        A.   Yeah.  So this is an order indicating that the level of -- I'm

15     looking for a neutral word -- the level of pressure on Sarajevo should

16     be -- should be reduced, that they shouldn't be firing on Sarajevo, and

17     that this is a -- this is a response to the -- to the --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this is an expert

19     opinion rather than testimony.

20             JUDGE KWON:  No, I don't -- we don't agree.  He can testify as

21     far as he --

22             THE WITNESS:  It's an order clearly reducing the level of

23     pressure on Sarajevo.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   Reducing the level of pressure in response to anything in

Page 2034

 1     particular, as far as you can see?

 2        A.   Well, yes.  It even says that the -- it states, at the beginning

 3     of the English text, that the United States and others are seeking to

 4     bomb Serb positions, and that in order to avoid that, they will greatly

 5     reduce the pressure on Sarajevo.  I mean, they will, among other things,

 6     not open fire on Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Is this another example of the modulation you've discussed in

 8     your statement?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's a leading question, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, just a second.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Because doesn't that exclude the alternative answer,

13     we do not agree it is a leading question.  You can answer the question.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is an example, a clear example, of them

15     modulating the level of pressure or terror on Sarajevo in accordance with

16     their political interests and conveniences.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             Could I ask that this document -- I'd like to tender this

19     document as the next exhibit, please.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think this document would not be

21     admissible under the rules, as I understand them, that the Trial Chamber

22     is operating under, because the witness had no -- has no knowledge, other

23     than saying that this document, which he apparently didn't have any

24     knowledge of at the time, is consistent with his general knowledge of the

25     situation.  So it doesn't -- he's not adopting the document or being able

Page 2035

 1     to speak to it, other than being like a newspaper article or some other

 2     document that he could say confirms his view.  But it doesn't have any

 3     significance other than that, so I don't believe it's admissible.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You will address the admission issue?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I will, Your Honour, because I had the benefit of

 6     hearing the Court's previous guidance.  I believe it falls -- it's

 7     difficult to say what falls squarely within the Court's guidance, but it

 8     certainly falls well within the parameters of admissibility identified by

 9     the Court previously, looking for the various factors involved, including

10     a number of the previous factors we mentioned; where they intersect, the

11     official nature of the document, the elucidation by the witness, the

12     nexus to the events that he described.  Placing this particular document

13     in context, it's difficult to see how -- I mean, it's easy to see how

14     this illuminates the issues for the benefit of the Chamber.  This is a

15     document which could obviously come in in a variety of ways, including

16     the fact that it's an official document.  But in this particular context,

17     the witness was asked about the factors contained within this document,

18     related them to the events that he participated in, and illuminated its

19     significance in a meaningful way for the Court.  It's exactly the kind of

20     inquiry that should be made to witnesses and exactly the kind of both

21     context and significance that persons involved in events on the ground

22     can provide to the Court when they are presented with contemporaneous

23     documents.  So I would ask that it -- definitely ask that this be

24     admitted.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  May I say something before

Page 2036

 1     your decision?

 2             This document is not being sent to me.  It is being sent to

 3     subordinates.  What can that have to do with my own thinking or my own

 4     conduct at a particular meeting?

 5             I think that everything that Mr. Tieger said is not in line with

 6     the existing decision made by the Trial Chamber.  What is particularly

 7     important is the fact that this document of General Galic's is not sent

 8     to me, and that's why I don't think this would be right.

 9             On the other hand, the distinguished Mr. Harland, who speaks in a

10     very baroque manner and is highly talented, from a literary point of

11     view, he is speaking of people's feelings, and in this case

12     General Galic's feelings and thoughts.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber finds this document relevant or of

15     probative value and authentic.  In particular, authenticity has not been

16     challenged.  And the Chamber is of the view that the witness confirmed

17     part of the content of this document to the effect that it is consistent

18     with his observation he formed at the time.  So according to the rule,

19     the objection is overruled, and we admit this document.

20             It will be admitted as ...?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P825, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  P825.

23             And, Mr. Karadzic, as to your challenge, whether or not this

24     document was sent to you, is not an issue at the time of admissibility.

25     Rather, it is a matter of weight to be assessed at a later stage, to be

Page 2037

 1     done by the Chamber.

 2             Mr. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Now, Dr. Harland, just to go briefly back to the subject of these

 5     meetings that we were discussing with members of the Bosnian Serb

 6     leadership, including Dr. Karadzic, during these meetings did you hear

 7     incidents of shelling or sniping protested to Dr. Karadzic or other

 8     members of the Bosnian Serb political or military leadership?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you comment generally on any responses you might have heard?

11        A.   Well, in the case of Dr. Karadzic, normally he would deny that

12     there was a problem, or say that he would look into the problem, or say

13     that he had already issued orders that firing should stop.

14        Q.   In that note, are you aware -- do you have any knowledge, then,

15     as to the effectiveness of these protests?

16        A.   Well, in general, they would have very little effect, similarly

17     with the written protests, the letters we would send, except at these

18     times of explicit military threat from NATO forces against Serbs, in

19     which case sometimes they might be responded to quite positively and the

20     decisions might be implemented.

21        Q.   Did you ever hear incidents -- to go to the more particular,

22     perhaps, did you ever hear of these incidents protested to General Mladic

23     in the course of these meetings?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And was there any reaction?  And if so, what?

Page 2038

 1        A.   Well, General Mladic reacted in an entirely different way from

 2     Dr. Karadzic.  Of course, he's a much more confrontational type of

 3     character.  Dr. Karadzic would often link one problem to another,

 4     generally ensuring that the problem could never be resolved.

 5             For example, one I happen to remember - I don't know why - is

 6     there was a problem with the water supply in Sarajevo, as usual, and we

 7     would raise it during a certain period.  And Dr. Karadzic would link it

 8     to the issue of the water supply in the place he called Srbobran [phoen],

 9     which turned out, after some confusion on our side, to be Donji Vakuf.

10     Whereas General Mladic would generally be much more direct and combative

11     in his rejections of our protests.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move forward or move on to another topic

13     that you've spoke about in your testimony and statement, and that's the

14     events of 5 February 1994.

15             But perhaps before we talk about the events of that day in

16     detail, could I ask you to provide us with some -- or do you recall the

17     safety and security situation in Sarajevo in late January/early February

18     1994?

19        A.   It was bad.  That was a period in which there was no explicit

20     threat by NATO or anybody else of use of force against Serbs.  That was a

21     period after the Bosnian government had rejected the Owen-Stoltenberg

22     Peace Plan a couple of months earlier.  So there was generally very

23     little reason on any side to restrain military activity, and so it was a

24     period in Sarajevo that was characterised by rather a high level of

25     shelling and small-arms fire and sniping, as well as quite tight controls

Page 2039

 1     on water, gas, electricity, and convoys, and so on.

 2        Q.   And over the course of your work, did you become familiar -- or

 3     are you familiar with the events surrounding the shelling of

 4     5 February 1994 that's now widely referred to as "Markale 1"?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What were your sources of information regarding the incident?

 7        A.   There were a series of investigations into the incident that were

 8     formally undertaken by our UNMOs, that is, our United Nations Military

 9     Observers, by the French battalion responsible for the area, and by the

10     UNPROFOR force engineers.

11             In addition, I sent immediately to the scene of the incident one

12     local colleague, who was a medical doctor, who -- so we were -- I was at

13     the -- I was at Sarajevo Airport when news came of the incident, there

14     with Mr. Krajisnik and Professor Koljevic, I think, and then

15     Dr. Silajdzic and Dr. Muratovic, and news came that there had been this.

16     And General -- we decided amongst ourselves at UNPROFOR that General Rose

17     and our local colleague, Dr. Mocibob, would go immediately to the scene,

18     whereas I would return to the headquarters and make contact.  So I was

19     aware of the investigation, and then I -- which I read and discussed with

20     the authors, and then I de-briefed the investigators as well as

21     General Rose and Dr. Mocibob.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I ask, please, that 65 ter 09625 be called

23     up.

24        Q.   And while we're waiting for that document to appear on the

25     screen, perhaps I could ask you:  Did you go to the scene, yourself?

Page 2040

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Are you familiar with the scene?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And how so?

 5        A.   Well, it's the main market-place in that part of Sarajevo.  In

 6     many ways, it's Sarajevo's principal market-place.

 7        Q.   Now, if I could ask you to look at the document on the monitor in

 8     front of you entitled "Weekly BiH Political Assessment 53."  Could I ask

 9     you if you recognise that document?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you draft that document?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I then ask if we can turn to e-court page 5,

14     second full paragraph on page 5.

15        Q.   Now, the paragraph begins with the word:  "Later."  I note in

16     this paragraph, you report in this document on a statement by

17     Assembly President Krajisnik, and I'll read from the document:

18             "In a similar vein, Assembly President Krajisnik claimed that

19     many of the dead bodies seen on TV were not real people at all, but just

20     mannequin dummies dressed up to look like blast victims."

21             Now, based on the information you received, do you give any

22     credence to this whatsoever?

23        A.   No.  That was completely bizarre and, if I may say so, to me

24     illustrated just how distant to reality some of the power leadership

25     were.

Page 2041

 1        Q.   And why do you not give any credence to it?

 2        A.   Well, among other things, I dispatched from my own staff a

 3     colleague who's a medical doctor, who's very well qualified to say what

 4     is the difference between a dead body and a mannequin.  And these were

 5     definitely dead people, and there were definitely many taken to hospital,

 6     the survivors.  Yes -- no, there was simply no question, and the whole

 7     suggestion is outlandish.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, could I ask this document please be

 9     admitted as the next exhibit.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P826.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Moving on, but still in relation to the same

15     incident, and it's referred to, in part, in paragraphs 82 to 86 of your

16     statement, could I ask for 65 ter 09632 to be called up on the screen,

17     please, an UNPROFOR Weekly BiH Political Assessment 54, dated 17 February

18     1994.

19             And there it is.

20        Q.   Mr. Harland, do you recognise this document?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you write it?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could move now over to e-court page 6 of

25     this document, the very first paragraph of page 6.

Page 2042

 1        Q.   And in that very first paragraph, you've noted the following:

 2             "The Serb policy was summed up by Assembly President Krajisnik,

 3     who stated that, 'We will do everything to avoid air-strikes, except

 4     capitulate.'"

 5             Do you have any comment with regard to this notation that you

 6     made at the time and this statement?

 7        A.   Well, nothing except that it is an extremely explicit and

 8     specific example of the way in which the Serbs would suddenly reduce the

 9     level of shelling and sniping and restrictions of electricity and gas and

10     so on, in response to perceived external threats.  And here, they state

11     it themselves.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, could this document please be made

13     the next exhibit.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P827, Your Honour.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Moving on in time to the end of August 1995 and the incident

19     frequently referred to as "Markale 2," could I ask you whether you're

20     familiar with the incident or became familiar with the incident in the

21     course of your work?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you attend the scene?

24        A.   I did pass the scene.  I did go down to the scene some hours

25     after.  Markale 2, I think, happened in the late morning.  In the

Page 2043

 1     evening, I passed by the scene.

 2        Q.   And did you also -- or are you also aware of reports prepared and

 3     investigations conducted relating to the incident?

 4        A.   Yes, very much.

 5        Q.   And how did you become aware?

 6        A.   I was in the room when General Smith ordered an immediate

 7     investigation, and I was present in the hours and day or two that

 8     followed when those who prepared those reports were summoned and asked to

 9     give their analysis of what had happened and where the firing had come

10     from.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I then ask for 65 ter 01692 to be called up

12     on the screen, please.

13        Q.   Do you see a document on the screen in front of you, Mr. Harland?

14        A.   Yes, a note to General Smith from the intelligence cell.

15        Q.   Do you recognise that document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And how so?

18        A.   I was -- I was present when that document was presented to

19     General Smith in the presence of the chief of the G2 cell, the

20     intelligence cell, Colonel Powers, and I was present when these

21     handwritten annotations or amendments were made to the document.

22        Q.   Now, I note that this document refers to not one, but five mortar

23     rounds having impacted; is that correct?

24        A.   That's correct.

25        Q.   And to your knowledge, was one of those rounds the killing round?

Page 2044

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   To your knowledge, and based on your presence when this document

 3     was presented to General Smith and others, was there any doubt in BH

 4     Command as to the origin of fire of these five shells?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   And did UNPROFOR issue any statements as to the origin of fire of

 7     these shells?

 8        A.   The commander, General Smith, made a statement, saying that it

 9     was -- I forget the words, but saying that it was perhaps still not clear

10     where -- what was the origin of fire.

11        Q.   And do you know, then, why such a statement might have issued

12     when there was no doubt, to your knowledge, as to the origin of fire?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And why was that?

15        A.   It takes a minute or two, if that's okay.

16             There, General Smith had a plan to end the war in Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, or at least a series of initiatives that would contribute to

18     the end of the war, and central to those initiatives was the need to

19     direct NATO air-strikes against the Bosnian Serbs on a massive scale.  In

20     order for him to be able to initiate those air-strikes, he had to resolve

21     two problems.  One problem, we called them the Mogadishu problem, which

22     is probably less relevant to this Court, and to his statement about these

23     mortars.  The second problem is the hostage problem, which is that he

24     could not trigger the large-scale -- the massive-scale use of NATO air

25     power against the Bosnian Serbs unless he was sure that all UN personnel,

Page 2045

 1     particularly UN personnel of NATO nationalities, were off Bosnian Serb

 2     territory, because if they were on Bosnian Serb territory, they would be

 3     very vulnerable to being taken hostage.  And they had -- the Serbs had

 4     shown, in May, I think it was, that if they were able to take hostages,

 5     they could use them as human shields, and that would stop NATO from

 6     escalating its air-strikes.  So General Smith had been working for

 7     several weeks, very quietly and discreetly, to take as many UNPROFOR

 8     personnel as possible, particularly all those from NATO nations, off

 9     Bosnian-Serb-held territory.

10             Now, nobody could predict, when this Markale atrocity happened,

11     that this would be the incident that would trigger these air attacks, and

12     very unfortunately for UNPROFOR, exactly on that day there was a small

13     unit of very vulnerable British troops, that is, UNPROFOR troops of NATO

14     nationality, stuck on Bosnian-Serb-controlled territory.  I think it was

15     a unit that was leaving the Bosnian government pocket of Gorazde --

16     enclave of Gorazde and going home, or rotating for leave, perhaps, and

17     they were, I think, in a little village called Dobrun.  So General Smith

18     desperately needed a few hours of time.  He needed to buy a few hours so

19     that he could quickly get these British troops out of the way of the

20     Serbs, so they couldn't be taken as human shields, so he needed a few

21     hours in which the Serbs didn't realise what was happening while he

22     prepared to launch the air-strikes.

23             So we had a discussion about what to do, and it was decided that

24     the best way to ensure that the Serbs did not quickly try to grab these

25     people as hostages would be for us to make a very bland statement, a

Page 2046

 1     statement implying that we didn't know who had fired the shell, and

 2     certainly wouldn't imply that we were doing what was being done, which --

 3     by UNPROFOR, which is preparing very large-scale air-strikes in an effort

 4     to end the war.

 5             So it was decided that such a statement would be made, and it was

 6     made.  And I believe it may have contributed to an enduring myth as to

 7     who fired that mortar bomb.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, this document that remains on the

 9     screen, please, 65 ter 01692, if that could please be admitted as the

10     next exhibit.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P828.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, Your Honours, subject to resolution of the

15     remaining associated documents that are referred to, expounded upon, and

16     otherwise mentioned in Dr. Harland's statement, and which are contained

17     in our notification of 29 April this year, that would conclude my

18     examination-in-chief.

19             I would, at this point, move these documents, which I think total

20     some 92 in number, into evidence, if I may.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             We have five minutes.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  Judge Morrison has one question.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Harland, before Dr. Karadzic commences:  You

Page 2047

 1     mentioned the Mogadishu factor, as it was a sort of almost, in a plea of

 2     confessional avoidance.  I presume that what you meant by that would be

 3     the reluctance of certain powers to be involved as a result of what was

 4     widely acknowledged to have happened to US troops in Mogadishu.

 5             THE WITNESS:  In a way.  The very specific issue was that

 6     General Smith was concerned, as General Rose, his predecessor, had been,

 7     that if he, as the UNPROFOR commander, ordered massive air-strikes

 8     against the Serbs, that the Serbs would, because they controlled the

 9     artillery in the mountains around Sarajevo, be able to retaliate very

10     directly against the UNPROFOR and UNHCR bases and facilities on the floor

11     of the valley, that we would be vulnerable, just as the Bosnian

12     government and the Sarajevo population had been vulnerable.  And that if

13     there was a massive retaliation by the Serbs, that the countries which

14     owned the aircraft, the United States and other countries, might lose

15     their nerve, in the face of casualties, and might withdraw, as had

16     happened in Mogadishu.  So General Smith determined that he would need a

17     military plan before UNPROFOR called in NATO air-strikes on a massive

18     scale.  He would need to bring in large artillery units, which he placed

19     on Mount Igman, and he would need to deploy them so that simultaneously

20     with the order to launch air-strikes, he would be able to bombard the

21     Serb artillery to suppress the Serbian battery fire.  So this complicated

22     sequence of events we called the Mogadishu problem.  UNPROFOR was able to

23     resolve the Mogadishu problem and the hostage problem, and the

24     air-strikes were able to go ahead and help end the war.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise for today, but tomorrow morning I would

Page 2048

 1     appreciate if Mr. Robinson will have put into writing, just in a bullet

 2     point, the list of number of exhibits and --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correction, please.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  -- the crux of your objections so that we can deal

 5     with it for the first thing tomorrow morning.

 6             And Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 38, line 23, there is

 8     something that I didn't say, and it was recorded.  However, it looks like

 9     a swear word.  You can maybe check it on the audio.  It seems that -- it

10     arises from the transcript I said, "Madam damn," and I never said that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It will be taken care of.  Thank you.

12             Tomorrow, we'll sit in the morning.  Is it correct?  Yes.

13     Tomorrow morning, 9.00.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 7th day of May,

17                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.