Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2479

 1                           Thursday, 20 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everybody.

 7             Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.  Good afternoon to everybody.

 9             Please, may I --

10                           WITNESS:  AERNOUT VAN LYNDEN [Resumed]

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May I please have 1D01231 up on

13     the screens.

14             It appears that this has not been entered into e-court yet, so I

15     would appreciate it if the usher could provide the witness with a hard

16     copy of this document.

17        Q.   Well, apparently we do have the original in e-court, but not the

18     translation, so I will read slowly, Mr. van Lynden.

19             We see that this document is of 8th June, 1992, and let me just

20     remind you that on the 1st of June, 1992, the cease-fire was signed, the

21     one that was renewed and put in force on the 14th of June.

22             The Command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, strictly

23     confidential, so this command is reporting to the Main Staff of the Army

24     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it was called at the time.

25             Item 1:

Page 2480

 1             "During the day, the enemy launched offensive actions from the

 2     city towards the suburbs.  The artillery fire targeted Kobilja Glava Zuc,

 3     Boljakov Potok Zuc, and Han Zuc.  He managed to capture the S-1 access

 4     from Rajlovac, Prijesko [phoen] Brdo, Smiljevici, Ugljesici [phoen]," and

 5     so on and so forth.

 6             And then it says:

 7             "The artillery fire targeted Vrace, Vojkovici, Nedjarici, Ilidza,

 8     Rajlovac, and the Military Post KAG.  We're expecting a strong attack on

 9     the airport during the night."

10             And then under number 3, it says:

11             "A large number of houses have been destroyed in the area of

12     Vrace.  In the course of the day, we had 8 dead, 62 injured, 2 damaged

13     tanks, and 5 transporters."

14             Is this, in fact, similar or rather similar to the report

15     provided by Sefer Halilovic to his Presidency on Serbian losses?  This is

16     of the 8th, and the other one was of the 18th.  Do you agree that this is

17     something that had to be actually noted, and the international public

18     opinion had to be informed as to who was opening fire and who the victims

19     were?

20             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I have a question, in light of what I

21     experienced here yesterday.

22             I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I'm aware, if the Prosecution

23     has -- is going to tender a document, it has to shown those documents to

24     the Defence beforehand.  If the Defence is going to put forward a

25     document, the Prosecution has to see it beforehand.  But I have not seen

Page 2481

 1     any of these documents, and surely a witness has certain rights as well.

 2     How am I meant to react instantaneously to documents that I have never

 3     seen before?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the Tribunal has the rule the witness

 5     has to be shown the documents he's going to see during the course of

 6     cross-examination.  But you can answer as far as you can know.  So if you

 7     have nothing to testify, you can say so.  If you have any comment, you

 8     can make it in such a way.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Well, I would like to go down that I think

10     witnesses should also have rights to see certain documents.

11             Mr. Karadzic requested to see me before the session in court, and

12     I agreed to that.  Mr. Karadzic could have been polite enough to show me

13     those documents when I went to the prison to visit him.

14             In response to your question, as far as I'm able to answer it,

15     firstly, I was not aware at the time either of the documents you showed

16     me yesterday and presented to the Court or of this report that you show

17     to me this afternoon.  If we are not informed, either by your government,

18     and we had a producer and office at that time working in Pale, or if I

19     was not informed on the other side of the front-lines by the Bosnian

20     government, then obviously it is very difficult for me, as a journalist

21     there, in what was still a fairly anarchic situation at the beginning of

22     June 1992, to give that news.  We gave that news as well as we could.  We

23     tried to check both with the Bosnian Presidency and with the UN then

24     present in Sarajevo before sending our reports.

25             As far as I'm aware, at the time our reports were as accurate as

Page 2482

 1     they could possibly be, given the limitations.  And, of course, there are

 2     limitations to the accuracy of a reporter working in an anarchic war

 3     zone, specifically in a city like Sarajevo, being as dangerous as it was

 4     and as difficult as it was to get from A to B.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But, you see, this is not a document that I'm asking

 6     you about.  It's really the events, and you reported on these events

 7     quite contrary to what is stated here.

 8             At one point, it was said that -- at no point was it said that

 9     there was an exchange of fire, that there were victims, and that the

10     majority of victims were Serb, and you never reported any of that,

11     because if one was to just listen to your reports, we would just hear

12     that there was shooting in Sarajevo all over the place.  And we can see

13     here that there were dead and also a lot of damaged homes, and from your

14     reporting one could not even divine that there were any Serb victims and

15     that the Muslims were the ones who had actually started the fighting.

16             So you're just pointing out these events because your reporting

17     on them was quite opposite to what is stated here.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Again, Your Honour, that may be in the guise of

20     putting one's case, but it's really not -- it's really more argument

21     without a question.  Putting one's case, I would say, in general is

22     saying what one's position is on a particular point that's in dispute

23     between the parties, which Mr. Karadzic has done on the issues that this

24     witness has to deal with.  It's not continually, continually talking

25     about injuries -- alleged injuries to your side, or things of that

Page 2483

 1     nature, and there was no question here.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think he was putting his case, and then the

 3     witness is capable of answering this question, in my opinion, as far as

 4     he can.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Well, I'll do my best, Your Honour.

 6             My first reaction is, as far as saying you expect me, on one side

 7     of the war zone, on one side of the front-lines, to hop over backwards

 8     and forwards to find out precisely what's happening on the other side.

 9     That is a ridiculous expectation of any war correspondent in any war

10     zone.  You are reporting from one side or the other.

11             However, at that time, as I just mentioned, we had a team in

12     Pale.  We were in daily contact with them by telephone lines that still

13     worked at that stage, and we asked them.  At no time, Mr. Karadzic, did

14     you inform that team staying at the Pension Olympic, with a producer who

15     speaks your language, of any of these facts, nor did you offer to take

16     him down there to see those facts.  They asked.  They were refused.

17             When we, somewhat later than the events shown yesterday in this

18     court, went to Pale and tried to film there from your side, we were

19     arrested again and again.  We could never work.  Now, that's not my

20     fault.  That's your fault.  If you were unable to put your case and give

21     the facts, as you saw them, to an international audience, you can't blame

22     us if we tried and were refused by you, your government, and your

23     military.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. van Lynden, one may interpret the accused's

25     question to this effect:  Watching your clip -- watching your video only,

Page 2484

 1     one cannot conclude as to the origin of the fire.  What would be your

 2     comment?

 3             THE WITNESS:  My comment would be that most of the fire, not all

 4     of it -- we cannot vouch for all of it, and nor would I dare to do so,

 5     nor could we see all of it.  I was at one side of the building, then at

 6     another side of the building.  I couldn't see the whole of Sarajevo

 7     continually.  Nor do I have eyes in the back of my head, Your Honour.

 8     Most of the fire we saw came down from the southern hills into Sarajevo,

 9     lying at the bottom of the valley.  Therefore, we concluded that that

10     fire came from the districts held, because the Bosnian Serbs held the

11     southern hills overlooking Sarajevo, that it came from Serb lines.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS:  Let me add one point.

14             I'm not claiming that there was no return fire whatsoever, but

15     nearly all the fire we saw and witnessed during those nights was onto

16     Sarajevo.  But there was also -- I mean, Mr. Karadzic mentions areas way

17     to the west which were not -- we were not able to see.  You can't be

18     everywhere simultaneously.  It's a large drawn-out city, Sarajevo, and

19     that should be borne in mind.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

21             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Please do not begrudge what I've said.  I'm really not trying to

24     attack you.  When we showed yesterday what Delic was reporting -- or,

25     rather, Halilovic, on the successes against the Serbs, you believed that

Page 2485

 1     he may be overdoing it a bit, but from this document we see that he

 2     wasn't exaggerating.  And I am just trying to show it to you, that the

 3     media did not report on this.  So the international public opinion could

 4     have been misinformed.  We did not start the fire.  Their fire was the

 5     initial fire, and we just responded.

 6             Now, I would like to tender this document, pending its

 7     translation.  Oh, it's been translated.  We do have a translation,

 8     Your Honours, but it's not in e-court.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I have no clue what documents the witness and the

10     Prosecutors have seen.  Could it be brought to the Bench, the document?

11             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, excuse me.  I didn't want to object,

13     no objection to slow things down, but I thought if there were more

14     documents that aren't in e-court, perhaps we it could use the ELMO, and

15     then the documents could be broadcast since there is no need for these

16     not to be shown.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I didn't say so because I was afraid it might

18     be a confidential document.  It seems to be an interpretation of the --

19     do you have the 65 ter number of the original, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1231.  1D, 1231.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That is not in the e-court.  You said you have the

22     original in the same number?  No, not yet.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, again no objection.

Page 2486

 1             Could I just see the English translation.  I saw it from a

 2     distance, I want to make sure I'm on the same page.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  They will be admitted, but MFI'd, pending

 4     translation.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for the question by

 6     Mr. Nicholls, the translations were sent by e-mail.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We have full translation, but it was not up-loaded,

 8     so that's why we didn't see it.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE KWON:  So that's a draft translation, so it will be MFI'd,

11     pending full translation.

12             Sorry for the inconvenience.  Let's continue.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be MFI D195.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Could we now have 1D18 [as interpreted], please.  I have the

16     translation.

17             These reports are in English alone because we did not have the

18     originals, as we took this from -- it's 1218.  This is not 1218, what we

19     have before us.  Could we please have 1D1218.  Yes, that is the document.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Now, I will read this out in English, although we can see it on

22     the screens:

23             [In English] "Command of the 1st Romanija Brigade, strictly

24     confidential, 11th of June, 1992.

25             "Combat reports.  Submit to Command of 4th Corps.

Page 2487

 1             "Enemy:

 2             "During the day of 11th of June, 1992, in the region of

 3     Vrbanja Bridge, PAM activities were spotted from the left side of the

 4     Parliament and right from the Vrbanja Bridge in the corner where the

 5     streets Gunduliceva and Branimira Cosica connect, also PAM and sniper

 6     activity was spotted.

 7             In the region where the streets Alekse Bojovica and

 8     Milorada Pejdalica connect, a bigger concentration of Green Berets was

 9     spotted, and it is assumed that their headquarters is there as well.  At

10     13.30 hours, I got the information that from the region of the

11     Zemaljski Muzej, there was an action from mortars on our units.  And from

12     the region of the executive council there was action with Zoljas and Osas

13     on the position of the units 1st Brigade.  Across the L oris a

14     machine-gun nest was spotted, and behind the blue skyscrapers number 1,

15     2, and 3.  Snipers were spotted between the streets Ivana Krndelja and

16     Milutina Turaskovic --" I think it's "Djuraskovic."  Also -- and so on

17     and so on.

18             Mr. van Lynden, you see the date here is the 11th of June, and

19     they are swearing by cease-fires and truces, and yet you can see the fire

20     that the Serb Army and Grbavica were under from the buildings that were

21     south of Holiday Inn, between the Holiday Inn Hotel and Miljetska, the

22     Zemaljski Museum, the government building, and the corners of various

23     apartment buildings, the Parliament building, and so on.  Was it really

24     impossible for you to obtain this information and to report on it?

25        A.   As far as I'm aware, by the 11th of June I had left Sarajevo and

Page 2488

 1     was in Pale.  Therefore, if I should have been aware of that situation,

 2     it is you and your government who should have made me aware of it.  And

 3     we were not made aware of it, nor were requests to go to the front-lines

 4     honoured by you or your government or your military.

 5             My final point would be, in reading this, which I am reading for

 6     the first time, a line which comes up a couple of times talking about

 7     Green Berets.  This is a figment of Serb imagination.  I never saw units

 8     of people with green berets walking around in Sarajevo in June 1992.

 9             And those are the only comments that I can make about this.

10        Q.   Well, Mr. van Lynden, that is precisely the reason --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Judge Morrison has a question.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  You said yesterday, Mr. van Lynden, that you

13     were aware of the Sarajevo-based forces having 120-millimetre mortars.

14             THE WITNESS:  Not in June 1992.  I saw them in March 1994.  I

15     never saw them -- personally saw them fired, but I saw them at a UN

16     weapons collection point in March 1994.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Right, that was my next question.  You never

18     personally saw them fired?

19             THE WITNESS:  No.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Because as an ex-mortar man, you probably would

21     have taken particular notice of that, had you done so.

22             THE WITNESS:  I was aware, but I didn't see it, that there must

23     have been what I would call smaller mortar units, 60 or 80 or

24     120-millimetre mortars, that there must have been some on the Bosnian

25     side.  That's relatively close action, front-line weaponry.  The

Page 2489

 1     120-millimetre can be used to fire further.  As I said, I never saw it

 2     being fired.  I didn't see it being fired, either, on the Bosnian Serb

 3     side.  The only time during the war in Yugoslavia I saw these units and

 4     filmed those units firing was outside Vukovar in 1991.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Does that mean, Mr. van Lynden, that you should be able to see

 8     the two being fired so that you could report on who it was, who was

 9     firing?  So did you actually have to see the weapon barrel?  Did you see

10     the barrels of Serb weaponry, or were you guessing on where they were

11     coming from, based on the azimuth or some other data, whereas on the

12     other hand the Muslim side would have to point out that the barrel was

13     smoking, so that would determine who was opening fire?

14        A.   Yes, I did see some of the fire coming from your positions

15     specifically on the top of the mountain, to the position that

16     General Mladic was to take me to in September 1992.  Looking at the maps,

17     we were aware at that time that that was an area controlled by your

18     forces, and from there rockets were being fired onto Sarajevo.  That, we

19     could see clearly, and were filmed, and, indeed, a few of those shots

20     were shown in some of the pieces shown to the Court yesterday.  What we

21     saw is you see where it lands, in which direction it's going.  There is a

22     trail.  I mean, that was clearly visible in the images shown to this

23     Court yesterday.  What we witnessed in those early days of June 1992 was

24     that most of the fire, not only, but most of the fire, the heavy

25     concentration of fire, was incoming into the city of Sarajevo.  As I said

Page 2490

 1     before, we could see that it was coming from the hillsides.  There was

 2     trails of heavy machine-gun fire, probably anti-aircraft gun fire, and we

 3     could see the rockets.  You could see these rockets.  We filmed them, and

 4     they were coming from one direction, and they were landing in the city.

 5     And, therefore, from that we deduced where it was coming from and who was

 6     doing the firing.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Can we also know what is meant by Zoljas and

 8     Osas, in terms of the weaponry?  Neither term is familiar to me.

 9     Mr. Karadzic, can you assist?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if I can assist, these are

11     hand held rocket-launchers.

12             [In English] Rocket launchers from -- shoulder rocket-launchers.

13             THE WITNESS:  They would be RPG-7s in the Western parlance, I

14     believe.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yeah, I was in the army so long ago, we were

16     still using muskets.

17             THE WITNESS:  Well, in the West, we never used RPG-7s.  It's a

18     Soviet-developed weaponry that was, I think, taken over by the Yugoslav

19     arms industry.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Speaking of this, could we now please pull up P927 in e-court to

22     take just a brief look at what this report is reporting on.

23             And while we wait for it to come up, Mr. van Lynden, I am a bit

24     confused that you see Hresa from the military hospital, which was

25     impossible to see, and yet you could not see the area outside the

Page 2491

 1     military hospital from which fire was opened on Sarajevo.  And, secondly,

 2     when you say on the 9th that rockets were landing on Sarajevo, do you

 3     exclude the possibility that Serbs had control over certain areas of

 4     Sarajevo; Nedzarici, Hrasno, Ilidza, Grbavica?  So when you say that

 5     rockets were falling on Sarajevo, you should have pointed out which parts

 6     of Sarajevo, Serb parts or Muslim parts.

 7        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you are again asking various different questions

 8     altogether, mixed up.  I will try to take them point by point, beginning

 9     with the last point.

10             I have just said that the rockets that we filmed landing on

11     Sarajevo were landing on the main part of the city controlled by the

12     Bosnian government.  Those were not Muslim parts, as you referred to

13     them.  Serbs and Croats lived there as well.  I did not see, and nor did

14     we film, rockets land on the districts of Grbavica, Ilidza, Hrasno, and

15     Nedzarici.

16             You ask whether I exclude the possibility that Serbs controlled.

17     I have never excluded the possibility.  In fact, I've been taken, albeit

18     somewhat later in September 1992, and again in February 1994, to those --

19     well, to some of those districts by your forces.  I've never excluded

20     that they were not -- were controlled by the Serbs.  No, they weren't

21     controlled by the Serbs.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to draw your attention to this image.

23             Could someone please switch on the e-court image for

24     Mr. van Lynden.  I believe he doesn't have it.

25             THE WITNESS:  I do, I do.  I think so.  Is this the photograph?

Page 2492

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like the witness to mark the image now?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I would like to ask the

 3     witness to mark certain things there.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, based on the report that we read out a few

 6     moments ago, where it said that fire was opened from the Parliament

 7     building, that's number 3 on your image; correct?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see the Executive Council or, rather, the

10     government building, and could you please mark it with number 6?  That's

11     the next number.  The government building, the Government of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, could we use the blue colour this time.

14     Yes.

15             Please go on.

16             THE WITNESS:  By June 1992, the only government building that I

17     entered was the Presidency.  These buildings -- I think the building

18     you're referring to is -- I'll put an arrow next to it [marks], and this

19     would be number 6, but I never entered that building.

20             The Parliament building, as far as I'm aware, was basically a

21     front-line position.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   You've marked it properly.  Yes, that is the government building,

24     or the Executive Council at the time.  It had been evacuated, and as you

25     can see, it was used for combat operations.

Page 2493

 1             Can you mark the museum that is also referred to here,

 2     Zemaljski Muzej?  That's the main museum there.  It's referred to here as

 3     the location from where mortar fire came.

 4        A.   You state that the building was used for combat operations.  I'm

 5     not aware of that.  It may have been.

 6             I should like to point out to Your Honours that being based in

 7     building number 1, it would be very difficult to see fire emanating from

 8     those buildings going out, let us say, towards us from where this picture

 9     is taken.

10             As to the precise location of the museum, to which, by the way, I

11     never went - it wasn't a museum open to the public during that time - it

12     would be somewhere towards where the photograph was taken from, somewhere

13     in front of the Holiday Inn, somewhere in that -- let me -- very roughly

14     in this sort of area [marks].  But from this perspective, I can't be

15     precise.

16             And, secondly, this is an area of town, Your Honours, that if you

17     drove past it, you drove at incredible speed because you were open to

18     fire.  It's not an area where you ever stopped or walked around and

19     checked the buildings, nor was I ever taken there by the Bosnian Army, so

20     I cannot be precise.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I think that it's perhaps a bit further to the left,

22     underneath this arrow where it says "4."  You can see a nice white

23     building there, and then it's in that direction.  But I think you're

24     pretty close.  Could you please put number 7 there?

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 2494

 1        Q.   Can you remember where the street is that leads to Vrbanja?

 2     Well, maybe we don't even see it here.  Where do you think that the

 3     Vrbanja Bridge is in relation to the Parliament building and the

 4     government building?  It is the lower right-hand corner; isn't that

 5     right?

 6        A.   Well, on this photograph, no bridge is visible, at least not to

 7     my eye at this moment.

 8        Q.   But the general area, the direction.  Can you mark that for us?

 9     Do you know where the bridge was in relation to the picture we have here?

10     Vrbanja, that's the bridge below the Jewish cemetery.

11        A.   Well, in that case, it would, indeed, be on the right-hand side

12     of this -- of this image.  So, I mean, in around here [marks].

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put number 8 there.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Now, Mr. van Lynden, you are at the military hospital.  There's

16     an exchange of fire here.  All of these positions are to the south of

17     Holiday Inn.  On the other side of the river is Grbavica and Serb-held

18     territory.  My understanding is that if you are reporting, you should

19     have reported about who was firing at who, or at least you could have

20     said that it was an exchange of gun-fire and that you don't know who is

21     firing at who.  This way, your reports leave the impression that it's

22     Serbs who are firing at the city and that they are firing from the hills.

23     We'll go back to the hills now.  What do you say to that?  How come you

24     did not notice that right in front of you, right in front of you

25     literally, there was shooting?

Page 2495

 1        A.   Well, we showed the shooting.  But as I have explained, from what

 2     we could see and what we could film, most -- by far the most was incoming

 3     into the area of Sarajevo held by the Bosnian government.

 4             As I mentioned yesterday, if there -- and this is in relation to

 5     my comments about the Marsal Tito Barracks after its evacuation, and this

 6     very precise artillery fire that descended upon that complex after its

 7     evacuation, that was a sign to us that your artillery observers had

 8     brought the fire down accurately and then there was sustained artillery

 9     fire for military purposes on that target.  We imagined, although we did

10     not go inside, the purpose was to destroy any military equipment that had

11     been left behind by the Yugoslav Army after its evacuation, which would

12     absolutely make it a legitimate military target.

13             The fire that we observed in the rest of the city, however, was

14     of a completely different nature.  This was not sustained artillery fire

15     on one particular point, which is what artillery is usually used for,

16     followed up by a movement of infantry.  Instead, what we got was fire all

17     over the place, which made it extremely difficult to film, which is

18     something Your Honours should bear in mind.  You only saw a small amount

19     of what was actually happening all over the city, and not on any specific

20     point.  We did not see that on the front-line that we have just drawn and

21     that you've been referring to by the Parliament, by the Jewish cemetery,

22     that there was sustained fire coming down right on that area, which would

23     have been logical.  You're right, it would have been logical.  It's a

24     military front-line.  Instead, we saw it falling all over the place far

25     away from the front-lines, and that's what we reported.

Page 2496

 1        Q.   Do you know, Mr. van Lynden, that Sarajevo was full of legitimate

 2     targets, and also that the Muslim forces used trucks in order to open

 3     fire at our positions, and then they would leave that particular

 4     location?  That's what a witness explained to us, that that was the

 5     customary thing, that a mortar is mounted on a truck during urban

 6     fighting and then it retreats.  Do you know that?

 7        A.   I'm aware that this happens.  I have not seen, myself, a truck

 8     with a mortar mounted on it while I was in Sarajevo.  However, I believe

 9     that under the Geneva Conventions, military forces need to be very much

10     sure that if they return fire on civilian areas in a city, that they are

11     actually targeting a military target.  A truck that fires a couple of

12     mortar bombs and drives away again, therefore, becomes a very hard

13     military target.  I understand that.  I did not witness one of these

14     trucks.  I'm aware that they've existed, I've seen them in Beirut, but I

15     did not see them in Sarajevo.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to --

17     actually, this map has already been admitted, but could the notes be

18     admitted, and also the map that we agreed upon with Mr. Harland.  That's

19     the relief map that the Prosecution has, and it is here in this binder

20     that I received, and the number is -- well, of course, it has a different

21     number now, since Mr. Harland marked it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you like to tender this map or

23     picture marked by Mr. van Lynden now, or are you okay to delete this?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I want it to be admitted,

25     and also I want 1218 to be admitted.

Page 2497

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If you could kindly put your name and date on this

 2     picture.

 3             THE WITNESS:  It's --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  20th of May.

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D196, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it you do not objection to the admission

 9     of the 1D1218.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.  I just wasn't clear.  Maybe I

11     missed something of the explanation of why there is no B/C/S original.

12     Mr. Karadzic started to explain that, but I thought that it didn't appear

13     on the transcript that I could see, or I missed it.  But I'm just not

14     clear on why we don't have that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we got the exhibits from the

17     Galic case, but we have these only in English.  That's what it's all

18     about.  We could not obtain the originals.  This is what we got from the

19     Galic case.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, do you like to mark it for

21     identification until we get the original?

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.  I mean, I think if it was

23     admitted in Galic, then there would be an original.  We haven't --

24     Mr. Reid hasn't found it yet, but we'll see.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So could you tell us if you find the original.

Page 2498

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D197, Your Honour.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I please have this map now, but

 5     the variant that we agreed upon with Mr. Harland, 02 from this binder.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Until then, Mr. Harland [sic], may I ask you the following:  The

 8     fire that comes from hills and that falls on the town of Sarajevo, your

 9     understanding is that it is Serbs firing at the city; is that right?

10        A.   I'm not Mr. Harland.

11        Q.   I'm expecting Harland's map.  Sorry.  You're Mr. van Lynden, but

12     it's Harland's map.

13             So, anyway, on the basis of your reporting, if there is fire at

14     the city coming from the hills, it's the Serbs firing; right?

15        A.   The firing that we saw coming from the hills to the east and from

16     the hills to the south would have come from Serb positions, yes.  That's

17     the firing we referred to, we filmed.  You could see the rockets coming

18     from that one position, Mr. Karadzic.  That was a position commanded --

19     used by your troops.  It's the position, I believe, that Mr. Mladic took

20     me to when he allowed me to interview him in September 1992.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, do you have the exhibit number of this

22     map 2 in this binder?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  My understanding, Your Honour, is there actually

24     was no agreement on this map.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No, the original, the original one.

Page 2499

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  The original, yeah, we can bring that up.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Unmarked original.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, since it hasn't been

 5     agreed upon completely yet, can we get the map where the hills were

 6     marked?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we can dig out the map marked by Mr. Harland,

 8     separate from whether we can understand it or not.  I don't remember the

 9     exhibit number.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  The unmarked, Your Honour, is 11790.  I found

11     that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The one marked by Mr. Harland?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm still checking.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness would be benefitted if he could

15     have an original copy in his front.  I'm ready to show mine.

16             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that exhibit was D134.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let's try.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's try.  There is one that's

20     even better than this, but let's try.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, this is an aerial image of the Sarajevo Valley.

23     Can you find your way here?  Can you show us, for example, where the

24     military hospital is in relation to this map?

25        A.   Not precisely from this height.  It would be a more reasonable

Page 2500

 1     question:  Can I say where the airport is?  Yes, I can.  Shall I mark the

 2     airport, begin with that?

 3        Q.   That's all right.  I suggest that you use the colour red for

 4     marking that.

 5        A.   This is the colour red?  I'll just try.  No, it's green, I think.

 6     It's green.  Okay.  So shall I put a "1" on the airport?  Okay.

 7        Q.   I think so, yes.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Now --

10        A.   The military hospital, you would like me to, I mean obviously

11     roughly, mark this as well?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Yes, roughly.  Can you mark Grbavica?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know where Nedzarici is, the Serb

17     neighbourhood of Nedzarici?

18             Let me help you.  To the north of number 1 and to the west of

19     Dobrinja.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Right, thank you.  Do you see the area between number 4 and

22     number 1, the airport settlement held by the Serbs as part of Dobrinja?

23     Can you see that?

24        A.   The part of Dobrinja would be to the south.  That's Dobrinja

25     [marks], unless you're referring to this area [indicating].

Page 2501

 1        Q.   Precisely, thank you.  Now, can I ask you the following:  Do you

 2     see the letter Z?  It is a Z with a diacritic.  Is that the hill Zuc?

 3        A.   Roughly, yes.  I mean, up there, it's to the north of the city,

 4     yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you place a number there, and could you tell us

 6     who held Zuc?

 7        A.   [Marks].  As far as I'm aware, in June 1992 it was held by your

 8     forces and was taken by the Bosnian forces towards the end of 1992.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the letter H to the east of number 7, and

10     to the best of your knowledge is that the hill of Hum, with the repeater

11     and everything else we saw in the reports?  Is that Hum?

12        A.   It may be.  I never went to Hum, so I don't know.

13        Q.   But it can be seen from all positions in Sarajevo; isn't that

14     right?

15        A.   There were hills to the north of Sarajevo.  Whether that was Hum,

16     I can't say that now, no.  I don't know.

17        Q.   Do you remember the repeater that can be seen from all points in

18     Sarajevo?  It was on top of Hum.  Is that that hill?

19        A.   Yes, roughly.  I know the building you are talking with the

20     television relay station.  Yes, that could be seen, yes.  If that is Hum,

21     then it would be roughly there, yes.

22        Q.   You can put number 8 there and tell us who held Hum all the time.

23        A.   [Marks].  As far as I'm aware, it was held by the Bosnian forces.

24     But I was never taken there, so I didn't see that with my own eyes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the letter G up here, and do you agree

Page 2502

 1     that that would be Grdonj, the hill of Grdonj that is above this entire

 2     north-east side and the old city?  Was that also held by the Muslims?

 3        A.   Again, I don't know.  I never went up there.

 4        Q.   But would you accept that, if I were to tell you that that is

 5     Grdonj, Feature 901, and that it was held by the Muslims throughout?

 6        A.   I can't contest that.  I do not know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the letter J to the east?  Is that the

 8     Jajce Barracks?  You'd have to know that.

 9        A.   Why should I have to know that?

10        Q.   Well, it's a striking building and it's a military facility, and

11     they had considerable weaponry there.

12        A.   I was not taken to the building, nor saw the weaponry there.  But

13     as far as I'm aware, yes, there was a barracks there.

14        Q.   Would you mark it there, then?  That would be number 9 by now,

15     because you did not recognise Grdonj.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Now let us move to the southern hills.  Do you see where the red

18     and blue lines are?  Do you know where Colina Kapa is?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Do you know where Bistrik Kula is?

21        A.   We were taken -- is this the same Kula as where there was a

22     prison?

23        Q.   No, no.  The prison was in Lukavica.  These are hills on the

24     southern slopes on the southern -- in the southern part of Sarajevo.  Do

25     you know where Debelo Brdo is?

Page 2503

 1        A.   I remember the name, but I can't pronounce it -- say precisely.

 2     I'm aware what we used to call simply Mount Trebevic as the southern

 3     hills.  That's what we would refer to.  Every precise name -- and we may

 4     have been wrong with that, but I'm not aware of, no.

 5        Q.   You're right, it is Mount Trebevic, if we're going to call it a

 6     mountain.  But the peaks on Trebevic, as you call it, rightly so, I mean,

 7     there are several mountaintops that are held by the Muslims, and they are

 8     closer to town, and the altitude is between 700 and 900 metres above sea

 9     level.  Did you know that?

10        A.   But they are to the north, not to the south.  And in my

11     testimony, I referred to hills to the south and to the east of the city.

12        Q.   What about Grdonj, the Jajce Barracks, and these hills in

13     Trebevic; are they to the east and south of town?

14        A.   Trebevic is basically to the south.  Grdonj, which you pointed

15     out, which I was not aware of, is to the north of town.  Jajce is

16     slightly, it would seem, to the east, but still at a relatively low level

17     near the valley bank.

18        Q.   Now we have an entire series of mountaintops on the northern

19     slopes of Trebevic; that is, to the south of town.  And these summits are

20     held by the Muslim side.  They have guns, mortars, and other artillery

21     pieces.  Are you ruling that out?

22        A.   Which Bosnian Army positions are you referring to on Trebevic?

23     I'm not aware of those positions.

24        Q.   You claim that the Muslims did not have anything on Trebevic,

25     that all of that was Serb held; is that right?

Page 2504

 1        A.   Basically, as one follows the red line, one sees that the hills

 2     rise up from there, and that was Serb-held territory, as far as I'm

 3     aware.  I'm aware that the Bosnians held hills to the north of Sarajevo.

 4     I am not aware of any high positions held by the Bosnian Army on

 5     Mount Trebevic, no.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. van Lynden.  It's much easier for me now.  I see

 7     now that perhaps it wasn't that you were partial, but you were simply

 8     uninformed.  The disastrous effect upon us is the same, but at least I

 9     see it wasn't ill-intentioned.

10             Now, I'm going to tell you, Mr. van Lynden, which mountaintops

11     were held by the Muslims on Trebevic.  Colina Kapa, 966 metres altitude.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, you say you're going to tell the

13     witness.  Well, that isn't really very much use.  You need to establish

14     the position by evidence rather than simply telling.  What you tell a

15     witness is not evidence in the case, in the same way that the question

16     you ask is not evidence in the case.  It's the answer which is the

17     evidence in the case.  And the witness is here to provide answers, not to

18     be told matters.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then, I could be pleased.

20     The witness said that on Trebevic, on the southern side, the hills were

21     held by the Serbs and that the fire from these hills was Serb.  That is

22     not true.  They held more hills than we did.  However --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, stop making your speech.  Just put

24     your question to the witness.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 2505

 1        Q.   Do you think that you were supposed to know, nevertheless, who

 2     held Trebevic because you were reporting?  You were supposed to know who

 3     held which position exactly.

 4        A.   In no war zone do the forces give you precise locations of where

 5     their forces are stationed or precise front-lines.  Your forces took me

 6     on Mount Trebevic, Mr. Karadzic.  They showed me their positions along --

 7     over the -- on the mountain overlooking Sarajevo.  At no time was I

 8     informed by your forces, Look over there, that's where the Bosnian Army

 9     is; therefore, we are in danger here, or we are being shot at from these

10     places on Mount Trebevic.  We were never told that.  We drove repeatedly

11     to the Lukavica Barracks from Pale --

12        Q.   Thank you.

13        A.   -- along over Mount Trebevic.  We saw the positions there.  We

14     were taken there later.  We were never, ever told -- I was never told, at

15     least, that there were Bosnian Army positions there.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just mark one last thing for us?  Where was

17     it that Mladic took you?  Could you mark it on this map, please, with the

18     number 9 or 10, I believe.

19        A.   Number 10, it would be.  I'm not sure that the position is

20     actually on this map.  It is to the east of the city.  It was clearly

21     within your lines, and it was a mountaintop position and you saw the

22     whole town.  It must have been roughly, but this is a rough marking

23     [marks], where I've now marked number 10.

24        Q.   Thank you.  That is probably where Hresa is, or thereabout.

25     Could you please just put your initials there, and then I would like to

Page 2506

 1     tender this map.  Please put down the date and your initials.  Thank you.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The image marked by the witness will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As D198, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Could we now please have 1219, 1219.  It's an e-court document.

 7     And this map may be removed.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   While we're waiting for it to come up, Mr. van Lynden, please

10     tell us which hotel in Sarajevo was torched?  Which hotel was it?  Which

11     hotel had been burned down and torched by the time you arrived in

12     Sarajevo?

13        A.   Well, I didn't stay there, for the obvious reason that the hotel

14     had -- I think there was a hotel called Bristol, but I can't be precisely

15     sure.  When we entered town, we had been told by the Sky News

16     correspondent who had been there previously, Dan Damon, that there were

17     no hotels to stay at.  He had stayed, I believe, simply in a flat with

18     people.  We were told that a hotel had been burnt.  I think it was called

19     Bristol.  I don't know.  I -- I mean, it's 18 years ago, and I didn't

20     actually go there because it had been burnt.  So, I mean, there's no

21     point visiting hotels that have already been burnt in the past.

22        Q.   Very well.  Well, after this document, we will show that that

23     wasn't exactly how it was.  But here now we have the document,

24     Mr. van Lynden, and it says "Report of the 16th of June."

25             Now, on the 14th of June, the cease-fire of 1st of June came into

Page 2507

 1     effect, and we see now what was happening on the 16th of June, combat

 2     report for the corps command:

 3             [In English] "The enemy snipers fired from directions of

 4     Assembly, Bristol -- Hotel Bristol, Pera Kosoric Square, and during the

 5     night anti-aircraft machine-gun fired from direction from Assembly, and

 6     it burned second floor -- two floors in building from the right side of

 7     Zagreb Street towards the Vrbanja Bridge.  Our forces intervened urgently

 8     and managed to localise the fire."

 9             [Interpretation] So as you can see, on that night -- or, rather,

10     on that day there was fire, and a building in Zagreb Street, Grbavica,

11     was set on fire, and that was rather striking.  Did you report on that?

12        A.   As I have already said, by that stage I was no longer in

13     Sarajevo.  I was in Pale.

14        Q.   Well, on page 11 of the transcript of yesterday, you said that

15     you were in Sarajevo at the time.

16        A.   No, I --

17        Q.   The Prosecutor put the question to you, and we can take a look.

18     And you also told us, during the preparations, that you were there in the

19     Kosevo Hospital and then in the military hospital.

20        A.   I entered Sarajevo right at the end of May.  I do not know the

21     precise date of my departure from Sarajevo.  But what we had to do on a

22     daily basis is ferry our tapes from Sarajevo to Ilidza, where the

23     producer from Pale would come to collect them.  We would then go back

24     into the city, i.e., we were crossing lines on a daily basis, and he

25     would take the tapes to Pale to have them edited and then transmit the

Page 2508

 1     pictures to London.

 2             At around the 8th -- 7th or 8th of June, maybe the 9th, it was no

 3     longer -- we drove to Ilidza, but it was no longer at that moment

 4     possible for our producer to reach us, and we therefore took the decision

 5     that we had to get our pictures to London, that we ourselves then drove

 6     from Ilidza, crossing the airport, via the Lukavica Barracks, driving up

 7     Mount Trebevic, and drove to Pale.  We then stayed in Pale for a number

 8     of days.  We were then withdrawn from Pale back to London.  And I only

 9     came back to Sarajevo towards the end of June.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We have not heard this

11     so far.  You didn't state that for your statement, nor did you mention it

12     during our conversation in the prison.

13             Now I would like to tender this document.  It was obtained in a

14     similar manner from the Galic case, but we only have the English

15     translation.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we treat it the same as the one we saw before?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, although Mr. Reid appears to

18     have located the original from the exhibit.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Do you have the number for the original as

20     well?

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll admit this.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour, I may have misspoken.  I can't

24     say that it was an exhibit or had an exhibit number, but we have an

25     original.

Page 2509

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D199.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honours, I'm sorry, I believe now it was

 4     D241 in the Galic case.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll keep it for the record.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Could I now please have 1D01098, where there is something

 8     mentioned about hotels.

 9             Yes.  We should have a translation of this document.  You can

10     remove the Serbian version.  It is sufficient for me to have it.  I will

11     be reading out from the Serb version.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now, Mr. van Lynden, this is an official note from the National

14     Security Service, dated April 20th, 1992, an official note.  On April

15     20th, 1992, through operative process, we have found out certain

16     information about hotels in the city of Sarajevo.

17             "Green Berets --" of which you claimed that they were a figment

18     of our imagination, well, "The Green Berets have taken over Hotels Europa

19     and Stari Grad.  They have asked the Hotel Europa director,

20     Ilija Macanovic, to leave the hotel in 10 minutes together with all other

21     employees of Serbian nationality, under the threat of armed force.

22     According to unverified information, one of the main headquarters of the

23     Green Berets is located at this hotel.

24             "We have also learned that on the 19th of April, 1992, the

25     Green Berets have taken over the Hotel Zagreb.  They demanded Serbian

Page 2510

 1     employees to leave the hotel under the threat of armed force.  Along with

 2     Serbs, Muslim employees have left the hotel, due to fear from potential

 3     attack on the hotel."

 4             Mr. van Lynden, not a single hotel was torched.  They were all

 5     captured by armed forces.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   I was not in Sarajevo in April 1992.  I did not witness a hotel

 7     being taken over by armed force.  The only hotel that I ever entered in

 8     Sarajevo, but I did not stay there, was the Intercon in the heart of

 9     town.  I did not go to any other hotel -- I didn't stay in a hotel when I

10     was in Sarajevo.  I stayed in the military hospital.  Apart from that, I

11     stayed in the building used to house VIPs, as I explained yesterday.  So

12     I'm not aware of this, nor, should I just add, was I ever taken by

13     Bosnian Army, for instance, for conversations or to meet a commander, to

14     a hotel building.  So, I don't know, nor do I -- I'm not aware that I

15     ever reported on how the hotels of Sarajevo came to close or claim to be

16     burnt.

17        Q.   On page 16 of yesterday's transcript, you said that you didn't

18     stay at hotels for specific reasons, and what I have to point out, with

19     all due respect, I have to ask for precision, because if the transcript

20     leaves the impression that the hotels were closed because of Serbs and

21     that that was the reason why you couldn't stay at a hotel, that would

22     cast a certain image of Sarajevo.  But now we see that you have actually

23     said something else, and here we have proof that that was not the case.

24     The hotels were taken over, Serbs were expelled from them, and this

25     happened a month before your arrival, and these hotels then remained in

Page 2511

 1     the hands of the Green Berets, which were not a figment of our

 2     imagination.  They quite realistically, actually, killed some of us.

 3     That's how it should be; correct?

 4        A.   I was told, before entering Sarajevo, that there were no hotels

 5     open in Sarajevo.  The manner in which they had been closed, the manner

 6     in which they had been burnt, was not something that I was aware of.

 7     That, I pointed out yesterday.  I do not know, as I was not in Sarajevo

 8     in April 1992, whether this document is correct or not.  I imagine this

 9     is a document written by someone who, himself, is not in Sarajevo, but is

10     in Ilidza.  I do not know the source of information for the people -- the

11     person who wrote this document.  I cannot, therefore, say whether it is

12     proof or not.

13             Coming again to the Green Berets, I never met anyone in the

14     Bosnian Army who described himself as Green Beret.  I met people who

15     later described themselves as being members of the Black Swans, members

16     of various corps, of various Tigers, but Green Berets was not something I

17     encountered.  I am aware that in Pale and -- Bosnian Serb soldiers

18     referred to their adversaries as Green Berets.  But my point was that I

19     didn't actually see units walking around with green berets or calling

20     themselves the Green Berets.

21        Q.   But do you believe Rasim Delic and Sefer Halilovic when they

22     report on the forces at their disposal, and among others they mention

23     that they have green berets, and they mention the number of men, which

24     does not necessarily mean that they had actual green caps or green berets

25     on their heads, but that that was what they were called; correct?

Page 2512

 1        A.   If -- neither Mr. Delic nor Mr. Halilovic ever mentioned

 2     Green Berets to me in conversations that I had with either of them.  And

 3     I haven't seen those documents until the documents that you showed the

 4     Court and me yesterday.  That was the first time I had seen that

 5     document.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that document was obtained by

 7     the Prosecution, and it was a document of an intelligence service.  And,

 8     of course, they wouldn't disclose their source.

 9             But now I would like to tender this document, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, Your Honour.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  We admit it.  It will be D200, Exhibit D200.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have some more time before

18     the break?  If so, I would gladly continue.

19             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, we'll have a break now for

20     25 minutes.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin, I'm afraid, Mr. Harvey, I didn't

24     give you the opportunity to introduce your new member to the Bench.

25             MR. HARVEY:  Your Honour, I thought I had done so on a previous

Page 2513

 1     occasion.  But if I neglected to do so, my apologies to you and to

 2     Mr. Eric Tully, who is our case manager.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MR. HARVEY:  My apologies.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Could we now please pull up 1220 in e-court.  We will go through

 8     a few documents briefly just in order to get a full picture of what was

 9     happening there.  This, too, is a document from the Galic case, I

10     believe.  You can see it before you, and I will read it out in English:

11             [In English] "13th of July 1992, regular combat report submit to

12     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps Command.

13             "During the day, the enemy at some moments carried out

14     reconnaissance over our forces with small groups, and it opened sniper

15     fire from the regions of the Mechanical Engineering Faculty,

16     Parliament - Hotel Bristol.  We found out that a bigger concentration of

17     enemy forces is positioned in the rooms of the Technical School in the

18     basement at the Marsal Tito Barracks.  Enemy transporters and tanks were

19     sighted in the Velesici region, not far from the tunnel, and above the

20     house of the police three transporters were positioned, along with two

21     enemy Pinzgauers."

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, this is a report where we do not see that they

24     dominated with their fire, but they were very active.  And we also see

25     what weaponry they had at their disposal.  Do you agree with that?  Do

Page 2514

 1     you see, for instance, that there was a transporter and a tank in

 2     Velesici, and so on?

 3        A.   I see that in the document, enemy transporters, which I imagine

 4     means trucks, or possibly tank transporters - I don't know which - and

 5     tanks are mentioned.  I cannot verify if this information is correct or

 6     not.  I didn't see that.  To the best of my awareness, I was in Sarajevo

 7     on the 13th of July, 1992, but I did not see this.  As far as I'm aware,

 8     also, this is a document that comes from your own army.  This is not a

 9     document from an outside -- like the UN force.

10        Q.   Well, Mr. van Lynden, this document is strictly confidential, and

11     it is a military secret.  And we see that the command of a brigade is

12     reporting to the corps command.  It's a genuine document.  It cannot be

13     more genuine than this.  It does not mention -- it mentions sniper fire

14     and some other movements, so it is genuine.  In other words, in order for

15     the Serbs to be believed, they would have to have Christiane Amanpour

16     there on the spot.

17             Now I would like to tender this document, please.

18        A.   Can I comment on the comment?

19             JUDGE KWON:  You are inviting the comment from the witness.  Stop

20     making comment.

21             Yes, briefly, Mr. van Lynden.

22             THE WITNESS:  As far as I'm aware, documents -- the veracity of

23     the documents would be -- have to be seen to by experts, and I'm not an

24     expert.  Therefore, I do not know if this document is or is not genuine.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

Page 2515

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Again, Your Honour, I'm not sure why there is only

 2     a partial translation being admitted.  Mr. Reid's found a translation of

 3     the full document, which has paragraphs 2 and 3 in it, which are missing

 4     from this.  Three states that the situation in the territory of the zone

 5     of responsibility is unchanged and the units successfully control their

 6     areas.  Paragraph 5 says that the morale is good and the security

 7     situation is good, and there were no major changes.  Paragraph 6 talks

 8     about no logistics; difficulties.  Paragraph 2 talks about fire from the

 9     Romanija Corps towards the Bosnian side.

10             So no objection to the document, but we should have the full

11     document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  But does it mean that you have the full document?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And the number, which is ...?

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's another Galic Defence document.  It's not an

16     exhibit.  We have an ERN number, is what we have.  Mr. Reid's been able

17     to find it.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll mark for identification, until we have a

19     full document.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  And I'll provide the copy to my friends during the

21     break, and I don't know whether they have edited the document smaller.  I

22     notice that this one - I can't see the top or bottom - but it doesn't

23     appear to have an ERN number, which the translation I have does have, so

24     I don't know quite what's going on.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Unless you have an objection to the suggestion of

Page 2516

 1     Mr. Nicholls, we'll admit the full interpretation as a Defence exhibit.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do not object, but we did not

 3     edit it.  This is how this document was used in the Galic case.  Probably

 4     for the sake of court economy, they used this reduced version and they

 5     only used points 1 and 4.  But we have no objection to the whole document

 6     being admitted.

 7             Could we now see 1D1221.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  1220 is exhibited.  It will be exhibited as ...

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D201, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is quite possible that this

12     document, too, was admitted in a short form, but again it wasn't edited

13     by us, but rather in the Galic case.

14             So on the 19th of July, at 1700 hours, and I will read out in

15     English:

16             [In English] "Regular combat report for the Sarajevo

17     Romanija Corps command.

18             "1.  During the day, the enemy intensified its sniper activities,

19     especially from the following directions:  Para Kosoric Square, Bristol,

20     Electroprivreda Company, social -- School of Mechanical Engineering,

21     tobacco factory, Assembly, and Vrbanja Bridge.  Mortar fire over the area

22     of defence of 2nd Infantry Brigade around Vrbanja Bridge and Grbavica II

23     is intensified.  Grouping of enemy forces is noticed in the areas from

24     where snipers were firing.  They fired with rifle grenades and from

25     infantry weapons from direction of Sirokaca towards Bosut Barracks."

Page 2517

 1             [Interpretation] If someone edited this document, which is

 2     possible, because we only see number 1, we do not object to the whole

 3     document being admitted here.  But the editing was done by the Galic

 4     team.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Now, can you see that -- can you see what it says here about the

 7     activities on the 17th of July, Mr. van Lynden?  Were you aware of this

 8     happening, that the Muslim side was active, as active as it states here?

 9        A.   I'm aware that there was firing from Bosnian Army positions

10     throughout the war.  Apart from after the cease-fire in March 1992 --

11     1994, yes, they were firing.  Am I precisely aware of these incidents?

12     No, I'm not.

13        Q.   Did you know of these numerous civilian locations, schools,

14     factories, a state institution, the social security building, that they

15     were being used as military installations and that fire was opened from

16     those buildings on Serbian neighbourhoods and outskirts of town?

17        A.   I was aware, yes, that there was a -- I was not taken there, but

18     that there was a likelihood of there being Bosnian Army positions within

19     the School of Mechanical Engineering.  I got the name right of the Hotel

20     Bristol earlier.  I wasn't aware, nor did I go into the Hotel Bristol,

21     which had been burnt, as far as I'm aware.  The Assembly, this must mean

22     the parliamentary building.  Is that -- we were aware that there were

23     probably army -- Bosnian Army positions in there.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             I would like to tender this document.

Page 2518

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark it for identification, until we have

 2     the full original document or the full interpretation?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, because I think that's necessary

 4     for the context to see how, perhaps, also close the nexus is to the

 5     witness's knowledge.  There's only a small portion here, and what's

 6     becoming clear is what's been done is to edit these documents down to

 7     only showing actions of the enemy forces.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll do so.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D202.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Could we now have 65 ter 11557, please.  This is an OTP number.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   While we are waiting for it to come up, Mr. van Lynden, I'd like

14     to just tell you that this is your report of December 5, 1992, and there

15     you're reporting on Otes.  This is what we have.  We see the first line.

16     It says a report by van Lynden, and in English it reads as follows:

17             [In English] "Otes burns.  Four days after the Serbs launch their

18     offensive, Sarajevo western suburb falls into their hands."

19             [Interpretation] You see that is what you reported; correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             I would like to tender this document, please, and -- oh, it's

23     already been admitted as an OTP document.

24             Could we now see 01194, please, so that we can establish here

25     together, Mr. van Lynden, what was really going on.  So 1D01194, please,

Page 2519

 1     on the monitors, and then we will see what was really going on around

 2     Otes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before doing so, could we have the exhibit number of

 4     this 11557.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P937.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  P937.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  There should be a

 8     translation.  Yes, we have both versions now before us.  Let's keep them

 9     both there.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, this is your report of -- this document is dated the 1st of

12     December, whereas your report was dated the 5th of December.  Here it

13     reads "Regular combat report" at 1800 hours by the Command of the

14     Sarajevo Romanija Corps to the Main Staff of Republika Srpska Army.

15             Item 1:

16             "The enemy has continued with intense attacks on the broad region

17     of Ilidza and Rajlovac in the afternoon hours.  The enemy has attacked

18     from the region of Igman and the village of Kovaci, with heavy artillery

19     fire, and with infantry fire from the town of Otes directed at Ilidza.

20     In the direction of Sokolje Distribution Centre, the enemy has carried

21     out an unsuccessful infantry attack, with the support of enemy artillery,

22     on the region of Rajlovac."

23             Under 2, it reads:

24             "The unit of the Ilidza Brigade retaliated against the enemy

25     attack with a successful counter-attack, and conquered the access from

Page 2520

 1     Azici to Nedzarici, as well as the centre of Otes.

 2             "Throughout the morning, the battles continue," and our forces

 3     linked up, and so on and so forth.

 4             Now, Mr. van Lynden, can we now agree that this actually was a

 5     Serbian counter-offensive and a Muslim offensive?

 6        A.   That was not my understanding of it at the time.  We went to the

 7     UN, and our information was based on what we were told by the UN.

 8             I should add for the Court that I was not, myself, in Otes, but

 9     the information that we reported came from the UN.  I'll leave it there.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We will get to that.

11             I would like to tender this document now, please, and I would

12     also like document 0195 up on the screens -- I apologise, 01195.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, unless it is objected to, 1D1194 will be

14     admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D203, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I now have 1D1195.  Yes, we

17     have that.

18             On the 5th -- well, it's the same date like when you were

19     reporting.  Again, the commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, on the

20     5th of December, 1992, to the Main Staff.  Routine combat report.

21             Number 1:

22             "Enemy actions.  Throughout the day, the enemy has carried out

23     the following actions:

24             At 800 hours, fired artillery at the following area:

25     Orlic-Smiljevici-Mijatovic hill, using 50 grenades and a simultaneous

Page 2521

 1     infantry attack on the region of Skravnik."

 2             I think that the interpreters have this on the screen.  And they

 3     are asking me to slow down, but I thought that they could read this

 4     translation that is on the screen.

 5             "Around 1100 hours attempted infantry attack on Hadzici.

 6             "At 1135 hours precisely from the region of Brijesce Hill, using

 7     122-millimetre Howitzers, fired 30 grenades at the region of Vogosca and

 8     Ilidza.

 9             "At 1215 hours, resumed attack on Orlic using chemical warfare

10     (poisons) and artillery.

11             "From the region of Kovac, opened fire at Vojkovici, using mortar

12     as well as infantry."

13             Number 2:

14             "The Ilidza Brigade, in co-operation with the Igman Brigade,

15     successfully carries out duties --" or, rather, "operations in Otes."

16             Now, a few questions.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   Did you really miss this 50 shells from the area of Orlic, and

19     30 shells fired at Ilidza 11.35?  Also, would that not have been a top

20     news item if you were to say that they were engaging chemical warfare and

21     using poison against us?

22        A.   Did we really miss this?  No, we reported that there was fighting

23     going on.  We don't sit at the top of a building, counting shells going

24     in one direction or another.  It's an impossibility, Mr. Karadzic.  We

25     are not an international organisation.  We are a TV crew with one

Page 2522

 1     reporter and a producer and a cameraman.  We film what we can.  We were

 2     in the center of the city during that day, until in the afternoon, we

 3     were driving towards a TV station, and the pictures were shown yesterday

 4     afternoon.  We were aware there was firing in various parts of the city.

 5     From where we were, we could certainly not see if anything was landing on

 6     Vogosca, for instance, but there was certainly firing going on and --

 7     there was firing going on.  That's that point.

 8             The chemical weapons, this is the first time I've ever heard of

 9     chemical weapons being used, which again brings me to the question that I

10     have posed earlier.  If you knew this at the time, why did you not bring

11     Western journalists to such points and prove -- give them the evidence of

12     what was happening?  We were never told.  We were not taken there.  When

13     we asked, we were never given this information.  This is the first time,

14     Your Honours, that I've ever seen this or heard this even mentioned

15     during the war in Bosnia.

16        Q.   Thank you.  While I admit that we were not skillful enough in the

17     media war -- actually, we did not even get involved in that kind of war,

18     but we were hopeful that somebody would report, as they would report

19     about the Muslim side.  However, as for the previous document, you say

20     Otes is burning, four days after the Serbs launch their offensive.  So,

21     in a way, all of your reports, and the reports of many of your

22     colleagues, do not leave any doubt in anyone's mind as to the Serbs being

23     the ones to attack and that it's always their fault.  Did you not inform

24     about that because you were ill-intentioned or because your editor

25     changed this?  But, anyway, would you agree now that all of this caused

Page 2523

 1     harm to us?

 2        A.   Under the difficult circumstances of a war, we reported as best

 3     we could, as accurately as possible, and tried always to check our

 4     information specifically with the United Nations, an outside force.  We

 5     realised that information given to us by the Bosnian government could be

 6     tainted, as could information given by your government.  We did as best

 7     we could, under extremely difficult circumstances, in an extremely

 8     dangerous city.  And that's the only comment I can make about this.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

10             Can this document be admitted into evidence?  And then I would

11     like to call up the next document.  Now, that would be a film.  We are

12     going to see how the Italians managed in the same situation that you were

13     in and how they reported.

14             Could the previous document be admitted now?

15             JUDGE KWON:  That will be Exhibit D204.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the transcript for this film

18     please be given to the witness and to others.

19             This film speaks about the very same event, at the same time, and

20     we have a transcript here.  And we're going to hear it in Italian, and we

21     will see there are subtitles in Serbian.

22             JUDGE KWON:  If you -- just a second.  If you have the

23     transcript, the Judges should have them as well.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you should have received

25     them.  I was hoping that you had received them.

Page 2524

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is no one

 2     interpreting from Italian into English, but we do have the transcript,

 3     which we can read out.  However, it is not our interpretation.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can have it placed on the ELMO,

 5     if you wish.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think we can view two things at the same

 7     time.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You can have my copy.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I have no doubt that Judge Lattanzi could understand

10     that.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Sarajevo is in shock because the

13     fall of the Otes neighbourhood after four days of siege.  It is in the

14     hands of the Serbs.  This morning, our television news crew who had been

15     involved in the clashes were trying to enter the city.  Our producer has

16     been wounded, the organiser, Roberto Canavicco [phoen].  But we should

17     have right now on telephone live broadcast our reporter.  Can you hear

18     me?

19             "Yes, I'm here.

20             "So, first of all, how is Canavicco?

21             "Canavicco has been by a rifle, a machine gun in his left arm.

22     The arm has been perforated, and the bullet has stopped in the dorsal

23     part.  It is still inside the wound.  He has been provisionally treated

24     by a Serb first aid team, and we are trying to carry him to let him reach

25     Split, where he will be able to undergo an operation or -- anyway --

Page 2525

 1             "But where are you right now?  You are no longer in Sarajevo?

 2             "We are outside of the centre, outside the zone controlled by the

 3     Serbs.

 4             "Listen, Demondino [phoen], what is the situation that you found

 5     during these days in Sarajevo?

 6             "A really dramatic one.  We were trying to reach Otes.  We were

 7     leaving the Serb zone in order to reach Sarajevo, and we found ourselves

 8     in the middle of a real battle.  At least about ten shots hit our two

 9     vehicles, a small coach and a car, which penetrated glass and the

10     external structure.  It was bad luck.  Unfortunately, what has happened,

11     that they have -- and wounded our Roberto Canavicco."

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. van Lynden, that the Italian reporter is

15     reporting about fierce fighting in this locality of Otes?  We saw that it

16     was the Muslims who started the offensive, and the Serbs responded by a

17     counter-offensive.

18        A.   According to the earlier document that you showed.  I have seen

19     no other proof that it was the Bosnians who did the original attack, nor

20     does it say so in this report by the Italian correspondent.

21             In all honesty, I don't know who began that particular engagement

22     at Otes at the beginning of December 1992.  There was heavy fighting

23     there.  We reported that as well, and we reported that it had fallen into

24     the hands or under the control of the Bosnian Serb forces, which appears

25     to be correct.  They -- from what I understand, the Italian reporters

Page 2526

 1     were on your side of the front-lines and trying to reach Sarajevo.  I

 2     don't know precisely where they were, and then seemed to be caught in the

 3     middle of a battle between the two sides when the producer was hit by a

 4     bullet in the arm, which could have been fired, as far as I can gather,

 5     from either side.  But that's all I gather from this report.

 6        Q.   However, in your report which we showed, what was stated was that

 7     Otes fell into Serb hands four days after the Serbs had launched an

 8     offensive, and that harmed us, and it's not true; right?

 9        A.   We reported on the basis of the information that we were given by

10     the United Nations forces in Sarajevo at the time.  That's the one

11     independent source of information that we had to go on at that moment in

12     Sarajevo.

13        Q.   Can you please be a bit more specific.  Who was it that gave you

14     that information?

15        A.   I don't remember precisely who that was, but we would go to the

16     UN headquarters and to speak there with one of the spokesmen.  But it may

17     have been on that occasion that we spoke to a military officer, but I

18     don't -- I can't recall.  We were there for two months.  To remember

19     every single conversation and whom gave us that information 18 years

20     later, I'm sorry, I don't know the precise detail.  But I recall that we

21     went to the UN, because we did so on a daily basis, to get briefed by

22     them as to what their information was.  The UN had a lot more people

23     there.  We were on our own.

24        Q.   Do you believe that the commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

25     would dare to send a false report to the Main Staff and to

Page 2527

 1     General Mladic?  Do you think that an officer would dare do that kind of

 2     thing?  And why would he, anyway?  What would be his motive to report in

 3     a secret report, which is not for the newspapers, that it was them, not

 4     us?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it is for the witness to comment on

 6     that.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I absolutely cannot comment on the actions of a

 8     Serb commander.  That's an impossibility for me.

 9             Can we -- is it possible to switch the screen back, and then

10     I can see --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             As soon as we get the UNPROFOR report -- well, that's certainly

13     going to be in the UN report, the weekly or the monthly one or the daily

14     one.

15             Can this film be admitted, along with the transcript.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D205.  And I

18     also have a correction to the transcript for 65 ter 11557.  It was

19     earlier announced that it would be P737 [sic], but, in fact, it will be

20     Exhibit D206.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             1D01207, please.

24             While we are waiting for that document, may I inform you that

25     that that is Zlatko Lagumdzjia's unit, the 1st Motorised Brigade in

Page 2528

 1     Sarajevo.  He's a well-known politician, the leader of the party that was

 2     the successor to the League of Communists of Yugoslavia.  Truth to tell,

 3     he did not sign the document.  Someone signed for him, on his behalf.

 4     But just have a look at this.  Have a look at what the order is and what

 5     the assignment involved is.

 6             Do we have the document?  Yes, we do.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Now, we can see Zlatko Lagumdzija here, but we can also see that

 9     it's somebody else's signature.  Nevertheless, it is his unit.

10             Can we have page 2 now.  31st of December, 1992.  Now let us move

11     on to where it says "Task."

12             "Task.  Occupy region to the right.  Transit to the left, most by

13     Electroprivreda.  Attack to be carried out through the direction of

14     11 Blue, south side of the Grbavica Stadium, palm, shopping, and

15     'strojerad', four big skyscrapers, with the goal to crush the enemy on

16     the given axes and to occupy important buildings."

17             Now, on page 3:

18             "Fire support.  Artillery support will be given in depth of the

19     enemy forces."

20             Then further on page 4 -- or, rather, the next page in English:

21     "Morale."  And then the last bit in "Morale," morale is high and so on:

22             "Taking into account that it would be impossible to occupy such a

23     fortified settlement without destruction and burning of buildings, which

24     at the same time represent strongholds, everything should be destroyed

25     and torched so that the operation could be successfully executed.

Page 2529

 1     Because of their well-known arrogance, none of the captured should be

 2     trusted, and especially the ones who carry any kind of weapon."

 3             Mr. van Lynden, the order is to destroy and torch everything.

 4     And as for those who are taken prisoner, they should not be trusted,

 5     especially not those who have weapons.  So they are going to take

 6     prisoner -- as prisoners those who do not have weapons.  And what does

 7     that mean, "do not trust"?  That means liquidate.  What else?

 8             So are you aware of this manner of treatment by the Muslim army?

 9        A.   I have never seen this document before, and I am not aware of it,

10     and I cannot comment on it.

11        Q.   But you accept that this is a Muslim document?  These are

12     documents of their army; right?

13        A.   I don't know.  How am I meant to know?  I'm not an expert on

14     these documents.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Karadzic, can you see page 2 of the original of

16     this document?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Well, it doesn't depend

18     on me.  In the Serbian language, it is number 2, "Task."  The first

19     paragraph, number 1, is information about us, and we are the enemy.  So

20     it says "Serb forces," enemy; right?

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm noticing the typography or letters.  It's quite

22     different when we come to number 2.  Can you explain why it is so.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is why:  Because they became

24     more pronounced because they had been highlighted probably using a yellow

25     highlighter.  The font is the same.  However, the contrast is different,

Page 2530

 1     and that can only be due to highlighting.  However, the OTP obtained

 2     this.  They got it from the Muslim army, seized it.  It's not our

 3     document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Continue your cross-examination.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   As a reporter from the spot, you should have noticed the

 7     destruction of Raca, Grbavica, other Serb neighbourhoods, and also you

 8     should have been aware of the street fighting for each and every

 9     building.  Did you know about that?

10        A.   Well, there were clear signals in Sarajevo that build -- that

11     streets had been fought to and that there were front-lines and that these

12     were pockmarked.  When I was taken to Grbavica by your forces in

13     September 1992 and again in February 1994, of course there were signs

14     there.  In my personal opinion, I would say that the damage there was

15     much more limited than it was on the other side of the front-lines, but

16     that is a personal opinion.  But that I was aware of fighting, yes.  But

17     this document, Mr. Karadzic, I cannot comment on a document of that sort.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this document be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls?

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, this one I think I would object to.

22     The witness has not been able to comment on it, add to it.  It's a -- as

23     Your Honours noted, it's very strange the way the document appears.  But,

24     really, this is not the appropriate witness for this document to be put

25     through.  He should -- I understand your Court's recent -- the Court's

Page 2531

 1     recent guide-lines, but I think under those guide-lines this document

 2     falls outside.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we agree with you, Mr. Nicholls.  The witness

 4     was not able to comment anything about this document, and at this moment

 5     we are not fully satisfied as to the foundation of this document.  So we

 6     will not admit it.  That does not necessarily mean that you can't tender

 7     it through another witness who can give evidence as to its foundation.

 8             Let's move on to another topic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let me just say

10     something very briefly.

11             When there is yellow highlighting on a text, and then if that

12     text is photocopied, then the letters seem different.  This is a document

13     that we got from the EDS, from the OTP.

14             Could I now have another document --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the number.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number again.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11874, Prosecution number 11874.

18        Q.   In all fairness, this is not your report, but it's a report by

19     your colleague from Belgrade.  He's reporting from Belgrade about what is

20     going on in Sarajevo, and it is the "Independent."  Now --

21             "After Sarajevo suffered the heaviest night of bombardment by

22     Serb forces in the two-month Bosnian civil war, local television

23     yesterday broadcast intercepted radio messages from a Serbian general

24     encouraging his officers to bombard the city without mercy."

25             [Interpretation] See, that is our objection.  Many correspondents

Page 2532

 1     sat far away from where the action was, and then they were buying the

 2     stories told by the other side.

 3             Now, Mr. van Lynden, tell us -- this is this well-known intercept

 4     of Mladic's alleged order.

 5             And now I would like to have the 65 ter number 30824.  We can

 6     have the transcript or we can listen.  I think that the transcript would

 7     be faster.  So then we are going to have both documents admitted

 8     together.

 9             This happened on the 30th of May; whereas on the 29th of May, you

10     were already there by then, there is this conversation between

11     Ratko Mladic and Potpara, and then between Ratko Mladic and Varos.  I can

12     inform you of the following:  These are officers who are encircled in the

13     Marsal Tito Barracks.  The barracks is completely under siege by the

14     Muslim forces at that point in time.

15             Right.  Potpara, line 5 -- is it line 5?  Potpara:

16             "It is calm at the moment, but there is frequent activity from

17     1700 hours until 2000 hours, and six shells fell.  A cadet was slightly

18     wounded, injured."

19             That is what Potpara is reporting to Mladic.  And then Mladic, a

20     few lines down, says:

21             "Is there an operation going on?"

22             And Potpara says:  "Not right now.  It is quiet.

23             "Mladic:  Be very cautious.  They want to provoke --"

24             And then a few lines further down:

25             "Ratko Mladic:  Look, by attacks against us, they want to provoke

Page 2533

 1     operating or acting in town."

 2             I think that the English page should be moved on to page 2, the

 3     English version.

 4             Potpara says:  "Yes, all right."

 5             And then Ratko Mladic says:  "Let the people know about that."

 6             Now we can move on to the next page in both the Serbian and

 7     English versions.

 8             Potpara says:  "Yes."

 9             And then Ratko Mladic says:  "Be extremely cautious and

10     restrained."

11             And then some 10 lines further, Ratko Mladic says:

12             "And, secondly, they are trying, by attacking the barracks and

13     the units, they are trying to provoke our activities and our opening fire

14     on the town."

15             This is already his conversation with Baros.

16             And then Baros says:  "Yes."

17             In English, it should be on the next page, and in Serbian as

18     well.  The next page, please.  Both in the English and Serbian, please,

19     let's have the next page.

20             Ratko Mladic says:

21             "So there you go.  You should prepare, and do not allow what

22     happened to Jusuf Djonlic happen to you and all that shame."

23             Baros says:  "Yes."

24             And then Mladic says:

25             "We left all our weaponry behind there, all the heavy weapons,

Page 2534

 1     and yet they attacked our columns.  And as for you, they would massacre

 2     you.  Don't you worry.  You will all manage to pull out.  You are holding

 3     out.  There will not be any problem."

 4             And then Baros says:  "Very well."

 5             And then further down, Mladic says:

 6             "Don't you get carried away.  Don't have illusions.  We left all

 7     the weapons back at the Jusuf Djonlic Barracks.  We left it behind."

 8             "Yes, yes."

 9             Next page in English, please.

10             Ratko Mladic says:

11             "If they're ready to implement the plan, they already received

12     the first portion of all the weapons that belong to these areas, these

13     four municipalities."

14             So he's informing that the Muslims had received what belonged to

15     them.

16             And then Potpara says:  "Uh-huh, uh-huh, yes."

17             And then Ratko Mladic goes on to say:

18             "They should have evacuated the Viktor Bubanj Barracks as well

19     peacefully before the Djonlic Barracks."

20             And then Potpara is confirming and saying:  "Yes."

21             And then let's have the next pages, please, in English.

22             Toward the bottom, the portion where Ratko Mladic says:  "I, too,

23     am of the same opinion."

24             Potpara was saying that he didn't want to risk his men's lives.

25             And Mladic then says:

Page 2535

 1             "Well, it is also my position.  If they want peace, they have it.

 2     And I ordered last night, as soon as I arrived, there was this mass -- or

 3     large-scale attack both against the units and against you.  There was all

 4     this firing, and I managed to set people at peace there and put

 5     everything under control to stop the fire.  As for what they're producing

 6     now, they probably have some pantomime performers or people who can

 7     successfully imitate the voices of everyone's, your voice and my voice

 8     and everyone else's."

 9             And then Ratko Mladic says:

10             "It seems like they're making a circus out of everything there,

11     and they're deluding their people, and it is not true that I gave any

12     such orders."

13             And then again Ratko Mladic:

14             "So let them deceive and delude their people.  You are to pass on

15     this information to every single soldier.  Do not mess around under any

16     circumstances.  Do not risk your lives, because nobody has a life to

17     spare.  We will not shell the town unless they violate the agreement and

18     unless they put you in danger.  But you have to be very careful.  Do not

19     trust them one bit."

20             So here is this intercept, Mr. van Lynden.  Can we conclude,

21     based on this intercept, that General Mladic ordered that the old town,

22     the old part of town, be fired upon, as it was reported in the Western

23     media?

24        A.   I was not aware of the radio intercept, I didn't report on it.

25     Marcus Tanner of "The Independent" did.  This is the first time I see

Page 2536

 1     this document, and I can make no further comments on it.

 2        Q.   But can we see from this intercept that the night before there

 3     was a large-scale attack -- a major attack on the Marsal Tito Barracks

 4     and that even a cadet was injured?  And you could have reported on that.

 5     This was on the 29th of May, when you were already there; right?

 6        A.   On entering Sarajevo, and again I do not recall the precise date,

 7     we, indeed, went to the former military hospital and filmed the cadet who

 8     was being taken care of, who had been wounded in the Marsal Tito

 9     Barracks.  And that was in either my first or second report that I sent

10     from Sarajevo at that time.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Could we now have this transcript -- this intercept admitted into

13     evidence, 30824?  That's the OTP 65 ter number.

14             JUDGE KWON:  How about "The Independent" press report?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't really care about that.

16     We're not interested.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection to the intercept.

19             If it helps my friends, the story that Mr. van Lynden referred to

20     about the interview of the soldier who was wounded in the barracks is

21     40264B, I believe, is the 65 ter number for that story, which I did not

22     play.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The intercept is admitted.

24             Just a second.  Let me confer with my colleagues.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2537

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the opinion to admit the intercept

 2     in a comprehensive and strict -- following this strict principle, so we

 3     rather defer the decision to admit any intercept to a later stage, until

 4     we set out our rule.  So on that basis, we'll mark that intercept for

 5     identification, pending future decisions as to the intercept.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be MFI D207.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say what our position is.

 8     It is the following:  All the intercepts before the war broke out, where

 9     the Muslim authorities intercepted the conversations of Serb authorities,

10     are questionable, although they may be of assistance.  But it really

11     proves how unfair and unlawful the Muslim authorities were, rather than

12     proofing anything against us, which is quite different from the situation

13     where war has broken out, where both sides are entitled to intercept the

14     other side's conversations.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the number.

16             JUDGE KWON:  What is your next number?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D01128.

18             While we are waiting for that document to come up, let me tell

19     you what it's about.

20             It's on the 23rd of April, 1992, a little before your arrival,

21     but this is still about the JNA.  It is one of their reports on the

22     events in Sarajevo.  The Command of the 17th Partisan Brigade is

23     reporting.  The document reads "Military Secret for Internal Use,"

24     information sent to the command for files, and then the following

25     paragraph:

Page 2538

 1             "The political and security situation in the area of

 2     responsibility of the 2nd Military District," which means in the area of

 3     responsibility of the 13th Corps and the 38th Division, "is getting

 4     worse, which is leading to a full-fledged escalation into

 5     wartime conflict in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6             "Military installations are especially vulnerable, the military

 7     industry and depots, and other installations and check-points of commands

 8     and units.  The organisers of those attacks are: the Republican Staff of

 9     Territorial Defence and the BH MUP, Ministry of the Interior.  And it is

10     being implemented by paramilitary formations of the SDA and HDZ."

11             And then two paragraphs below, it says:

12             "On the 17th and 18th of April of 1992, the Green Berets and the

13     MUP special forces, the BH MUP special forces, launched an attack on the

14     Pretis factory in Vogosca," which was a military factory, among others --

15     other things.  And it says:

16             "In the course of the night, from 3.00 to 5.00 a.m., when

17     5 attackers were killed, 20 wounded, and 9 taken prisoner, they managed

18     to take seven trucks, too, with ammunition, steal 100 Golf vehicles used

19     by Green Berets.  Through a speedy intervention by JNA units, a

20     large-scale disaster was prevented.

21             "On the 18th and 19th of April, 1992, the Green Berets organised

22     the capturing of the military industry Igman at Konjic, which was cut

23     off," the phone lines were cut off as well, "in order to prevent military

24     response."

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 2539

 1        Q.   Did you know of -- were you aware of attacks of this type against

 2     the JNA, while it was still the legal armed force in that area?

 3        A.   In April 1992, I was not in Bosnia, and I am not aware of the

 4     events documented in this document, which I have also not ever seen

 5     before.

 6        Q.   However, when you were to go to an area from which you were to

 7     report, do you try to obtain information as to the developments there?  I

 8     assume that you knew where you were going, that you knew what was going

 9     on.  Did you try and get any information about the area where you were

10     going to report from?

11        A.   Of course.  One gets as much information as possible from those

12     who are there at the time.  And on arrival in Sarajevo, the first place I

13     went to was the UN headquarters to get a briefing from them as to the

14     situation at that time.  But as to the information in this document

15     before us now, I am not aware of that.  I may have heard something about

16     it when I was still in London, but, as I said, that I do not recall.

17        Q.   Did you get some information from your colleagues, the local

18     reporters, the people who were reporters for TV Sarajevo?

19        A.   I do not remember visiting TV Sarajevo during my very first visit

20     to Sarajevo.  I did go there at other visits.  We were careful with

21     anything that came from the press of either side who were involved in the

22     actual war.  My background has also told me that if I haven't seen

23     something myself, if I hear something from another reporter, I also have

24     to deal with that carefully, unless it is a reporter I know very, very

25     well and know his work.

Page 2540

 1             So to answer your question about TV Sarajevo, yes, we did go

 2     there later during 1992, we did speak to people there, but any

 3     information that we were given by them we handled with a great deal of

 4     care.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Could we now see the second page of this document, please.  And,

 7     again, let me just say that this is the JNA reporting to their superiors

 8     on the events in Sarajevo and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9             The last paragraph:

10             "In the building of TV Sarajevo, there is a lot of

11     dissatisfaction among the journalists because of the constant presence of

12     armed paramilitary units who are on the premises of the TV, and for that

13     reason the reports are one-sided and biased because they are submitted

14     under the threat of arms."

15             And as we can see from other documents as well, which I will

16     show, the Green Berets had taken up these premises even before the

17     conflict broke out.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

19        Q.   Did you know that these premises were under the control of the

20     Green Berets, in other words, of paramilitary units?

21        A.   When I first went to TV Sarajevo, there were guards, as there are

22     at any television station in the world.  I didn't see paramilitary units,

23     as you described them, there on any visits that I went to TV Sarajevo.

24     That may have happened beforehand, as is indicated in this document.  I

25     wasn't there, so I cannot verify that document.

Page 2541

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             I would like to tender this document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't object, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Bench will confer.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours, to interrupt, but I believe

 8     there's no translation.  So, in any event, it would be marked --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The witness was not able to comment on anything.

10     And as such, we have some doubt as to the probative value of this

11     document.  As such, we will not admit it.

12             Mr. Karadzic, this one, as well as the previous one, is a kind of

13     example you are wasting your time.  You can put it simply to the witness,

14     instead of reading out everything.

15             I'm noting the time, but given the logistical problem, I'm

16     compelled to ask:  How much longer do you have?  I'm asking this question

17     given the -- considering the relevance of your questions that are being

18     put to the witness.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, you see, this is our

20     position:  I believe we still have a session today and a session

21     tomorrow, and I believe we will ask for Mr. van Lynden to be recalled one

22     more time.  But why am I saying this?  I am trying to put this forward

23     because Mr. van Lynden and all other Western media actually portrayed the

24     situation in Sarajevo that was very harmful to us.  The maps and the

25     configuration of the terrain did not -- were not consistent.  All these

Page 2542

 1     documents, including the documents from secret intelligence sources,

 2     actually show that this was biased informing, or at least not

 3     sufficiently informed reporting.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It's for you, how to present your case and how to

 5     conduct your cross-examination.  But on my part, I don't see the point of

 6     putting things when -- that took place before the witness arrived in

 7     Sarajevo.  So I think you can be more -- much more efficient in your

 8     conduct.

 9             Let's move on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D01224.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And while we wait for it to appear, Mr. van Lynden, let me ask

13     you this:  You interviewed General Juka Prazina, and you were in his

14     headquarters, and you assessed, quite correctly, that this was a mere

15     criminal.  And now I would like to show you what the Ministry of Defence,

16     the Muslim forces, the BH government forces, is reporting on the 1st of

17     June, 1992, the time when you were already there, and how they are

18     portraying Juka Prazina.

19             Now, let's see paragraph 2, where it says:

20             "In this period, too, I contacted the military police reserve

21     unit, Stela, that was located in the sports hall at Alipasina Polje and

22     was under the command of Juka Prazina."  "The reserve military police,"

23     so this is not -- they are not saying paramilitary forces.

24             A state agency under the command of a well-known criminal?  Would

25     you agree with me?

Page 2543

 1        A.   During my time, firstly, when I interviewed and saw

 2     Jusuf Prazina, he never told me he was a general, nor, as I recall, did

 3     he say that he was -- it was a police unit.  He and his men simply called

 4     themselves defenders of Sarajevo.  As you, yourself, pointed out, and as

 5     I pointed out yesterday, in my report I made clear that this was a man

 6     with a criminal record.  There is nothing further that I can say about

 7     this.  And, again, this is a report that I've never seen before.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This is a document from the Ministry of Defence of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic's ministry.

10        A.   But if they don't show it to me, how am I meant to comment on it?

11        Q.   Thank you.  The next paragraph reads -- that's where it is being

12     reported as follows:

13             "I claim that the orders of the Territorial Defence Staff of BiH,

14     regarding the entering and searching of flats, are still being breached.

15     Young and inexperienced people are sent to do this, and there are cases

16     where items which are not subject to confiscation were found and taken

17     from the people, which contributes to the dissatisfaction among the

18     citizens and honest people."

19             And then on the next page, but here it's on the same page in

20     English; in the B/C/S, it should be on the next page:

21             "I claimed again with full responsibility that a

22     not-insignificant number of shells that landed on this territory from the

23     aggressor's positions, that is, from the Lukavica Road positions and the

24     home from blind children from Nedzarici, and that a large number of

25     apartments and buildings were hit and some people injured and killed

Page 2544

 1     because of these youngsters who opened fire and provoked the

 2     aggressors -- unprovoked, even when there was no need for that, since no

 3     harm could be done to their manpower or equipment from such a distance.

 4     This uncontrolled shooting from rifles had always provoked a response

 5     with shells," and so on.

 6             And then further down, it says:

 7             "One more example, the freshest one that I could give to you as a

 8     proof of this argument:  Last night, around 2200 hours, Juka's guys

 9     installed a PAM on a confiscated Pinzgauer, and yesterday, in broad

10     daylight, they opened fire towards Nedzarici while a large number of

11     people were walking around in that settlement, men, women, and children.

12     And then they repeated this again around 2200 hours, targeting the crew

13     of the tanks on Mojmilo Hill, on which occasion a machine-gun opened fire

14     from a transporter, and then seven or eight shells were launched from the

15     Zavnobih Square on the Lukavica Road, on which occasion there was some

16     material damage, and thousands of people had to seek shelter in their

17     cellars."

18             Does this now give you a full picture of events in Sarajevo in

19     early June 1992, where Juka Prazina and his men, as this reporter gently

20     describes them, where his men are causing harm to both sides?

21        A.   No, I would certainly not describe this as a full picture of

22     events in Sarajevo.  This is dealing with one particular area.  Again, I

23     was not aware of this, nor was I told of what was happening in that one

24     particular area.  I was in Sarajevo at that time.  When I met

25     Jusuf Prazina, I met a number of his men.  I didn't meet any boys.  But I

Page 2545

 1     can't say to their level of training.  That was not something -- and I

 2     was never taken by them into actual positions where they were shooting.

 3     I did not ever witness that, so I cannot confirm or deny this statement.

 4     My comment may well be true, but I would not say that this was the full

 5     picture of Sarajevo, but just possibly one incident in one part of

 6     Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   Perhaps this was a misinterpretation.  I said:  Does this

 8     complete your picture of Sarajevo if I showed you what their ministry

 9     says about their general?  Although I believe you're right, he was not a

10     general yet at this time.

11             I would like to tender this ministry document now.

12        A.   No, this does not complete my picture of Sarajevo, to answer your

13     question.  And I'm sure there are still many things that I would need to

14     learn to complete my picture of Sarajevo.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't object.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.  But I note that we

18     don't have full translation, so we'll wait -- we'll mark it for

19     identification until we have full translation.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D208.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just put one more question.

22             Could we please have 1D00129 on the screens.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   And while we wait for it, Mr. van Lynden, let me tell you the

25     following:  This is an initiative to -- 1D01129.  So an initiative and a

Page 2546

 1     proposal to promote Mr. Adnan Solakovic and to confer a rank upon him.

 2     This is on the 11th of September, 1992, while you were there.

 3             Have we -- do we have it before us?  Yes, here we have it.

 4             So it says here:

 5             "I propose," midway, "that Prazina Edhem - Juka, a member of the

 6     Main Staff of the armed forces of the RBiH and commander of the special

 7     units of the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, be

 8     promoted to the rank of general."

 9             And then on the next page it says his units in Sarajevo have

10     grown into an imposing brigade.  And then after that, Juka's visions of

11     formations, it says the result of this is reflected also in the fact that

12     Juka's visions of formations have got the honourable name and task of

13     special units of the Armed Forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14             And then next, under 3 -- in Serbian, it's page 3 because --

15     page 3 in Serbian:

16             "Because of this patriotic display of war skills, Juka, as the

17     only one of all the war leaders who has grown from the popular

18     resistance, is hereby promoted by the Presidency of the RBiH for member

19     of the Main Staff of the RBiH armed forces and commander of special

20     units.  From all this, we see that Juka Prazina personally contributed to

21     the preparation, organisation, managing, and commanding of units of the

22     armed forces."

23             And then signed by Adnan Solakovic.

24             And then, pursuant to this proposal, he was -- he was promoted to

25     the rank of general.

Page 2547

 1             Does this tell you anything about who our enemy was,

 2     Mr. van Lynden, who was on the other side?

 3        A.   May I firstly point out that the date at the top of this document

 4     in English does not match the date of the top of the document in

 5     Serbo-Croat.  One document is marking "September," this one says it is

 6     "November."

 7             Pursuant to your first point, that I was there:  I was, in

 8     September 1992, in Pale, not in Sarajevo.  I am not aware of this

 9     document.  I have not seen this document before.  And as I have already

10     stated, I was unaware that Jusuf Prazina was promoted to the rank of

11     general.  I was never told that.

12             After the -- my visit in the summer of 1992 to Sarajevo, I never

13     saw him again.  I believe he left Sarajevo proper, and that he was

14     finally found dead in Belgium, if I remember correctly, in 1993.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             I apologise.  The translation has the wrong date.  The correct

17     date is in the Serbian version.  That was on the 11th of September.

18             Now, even before the 11th of September, Juka Prazina was a member

19     of the Main Staff of the Armed Forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was a

20     member of the Main Staff, a criminal who killed civilians, threw them out

21     of apartment building windows, seized their apartments, and who knows

22     what else he did.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm going to object on the basis now of relevance.

25     The marginal, almost zero, relevance of this document and this topic, I

Page 2548

 1     would say, has been exhausted.  It is now reaching the point where it is

 2     much more cumulative and time-wasting than probative.  The witness --

 3     right from the beginning Mr. Van Lynden said that Juka Prazina was a

 4     criminal, and that that's how he reported it.  And Mr. Karadzic now

 5     continues to talk and talk and show documents saying that Mr. Prazina is

 6     a criminal.  It's not something contested by the witness.  And the

 7     witness has made it unclear that he is unable to speak to these

 8     documents.  And the last one, the last question, Does this tell you about

 9     our enemy -- who our enemy was?  Is a pointless question for this

10     witness.  It does not rise out of the direct.  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, before you decide,

12     Your Excellencies?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not talking about

15     Juka Prazina here at all.  Juka Prazina is a symptom [realtime transcript

16     read in error "similar to me"].  I'm talking about the Presidency that

17     appointed him to the Main Staff of the armed forces of the Republic of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina, knowing full well who he was.  We are going to

19     show a lot of documents that illustrate that they were aware of who he

20     was.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It is for you to bring that evidence, but it

22     is not for the witness to prove -- to make a comment upon those

23     documents.  That's why we deem it -- have a doubt as to the relevance of

24     the document.

25             The Bench will confer.

Page 2549

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just tell the court reporter

 2     that I did not say that Juka Prazina was similar to me.  I said that he

 3     was a symptom.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say something, what the

 6     point is, before you tell us what your decision is, why we are doing all

 7     of this?  May I?  Is it all right?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  This is our view, Mr. Karadzic:  While we do not

 9     agree with Mr. Nicholls' observation that your question should arise out

10     of the direct -- I'm not sure whether you said that or not, but we are of

11     the view that you exhausted the topic with the witness.  So the Chamber

12     tells you to move on to your next topic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am going to move on.

14             However, I would just like to draw your attention to the

15     following:  I would like to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber to

16     this, and all the other participants.  I'm talking here about a state

17     that is not a state, that asked us to be subjugated to a state and

18     social-political system in which Juka Prazina was a general.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You'll have ample opportunity to make your

20     submission.  This is time for you to ask questions to the witness.  Do

21     not waste your time.

22             I'm noting the time.  We'll take a break for 25 minutes.

23                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I wanted to let the parties know that we have

Page 2550

 1     decided to sit from 8.30 tomorrow morning to have a bit more time, and I

 2     appreciate the understanding of the staff.  Thank you very much.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence is also grateful,

 4     because we do need time, indeed.  Thank you.

 5             Could I now have 1D01223.  This is Rasim Delic's book, and the

 6     title is "At the Helm of the Army in War and in Peace."  Thank you.

 7     Page 100, please, and 101.  Actually, I think they're together.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. van Lynden, do you know who held Igman from the beginning

10     until the end?  This part above Hrasnica, who held that area?

11        A.   The Bosnian Army.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Page 100 in the book.

13     So it is 100 and 101, so it's the next page.

14             No, this is 200 and 201, and I asked for 100 and 101.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Up until then, can I give you a bit of information.  We saw that

17     during the stage it was the Territorial Defence, we heard what

18     Sefer Halilovic said what was in the area of Sarajevo.  By now, it has

19     already become the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina; it's no longer the

20     Territorial Defence.

21             And here on page 100, Mr. -- well, the late Rasim Delic now says

22     there are 12 brigades in town.  We are going to find that now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I don't think it's necessary to read

24     out all the portions.  Put the crux of the content you'd like to put to

25     the witness, and put it, and hear him what he says.

Page 2551

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   On page 100, there is information about 12 brigades in the city

 3     of Sarajevo.  Did you know that?  Yes, no, that will do.

 4             I'll read it out.  It's from the middle here, the middle of the

 5     first paragraph on page 100.  In this operation, he counted on the

 6     engagement of the three tactical groups, Visoko, Igman, and Drina,

 7     involving about 10.000 soldiers and 12 brigades from the city, itself,

 8     that would be engaged from the inside.  Then there is the police, in

 9     addition to that, and the Croatian Brigade Herceg Stjepan, in addition to

10     all of that.

11             Do you accept that, that they had 12 brigades in the city of

12     Sarajevo, itself?

13        A.   This is the first time I have seen the book of Rasim Delic.  I

14     didn't even know he had written the book, Your Honours.  I don't know

15     that.  He writes that.  I don't know that, nor do I know if this is a

16     specific moment of time.  I don't know what year we're talking about.

17     Nor does it seem to say, yes, 10.000 men.  I see here "12 brigades."  I

18     don't know what a brigade was within the Bosnian Army, how many men that

19     entailed.

20        Q.   Well, it wasn't exactly 5.000, but it was three to five

21     battalions, let me tell you, consisting of 500 men respectively.  So it

22     goes up to about 2500, but never mind.  If you don't know about it, let's

23     move on.

24             Do you know that from Igman, there was very heavy fire that fell

25     on Sarajevo, primarily the Serb neighbourhoods?  But perhaps some stray

Page 2552

 1     fire went into other areas as well.  Anyway, do you know that artillery

 2     fire continued against Sarajevo from there?

 3        A.   I never personally witnessed artillery fire from Mount Igman onto

 4     Sarajevo.  And from our position at the military hospital, in the periods

 5     that we were there, if there was fire from Mount Igman, it would have

 6     been practically impossible for us to film, because it's way out to the

 7     west from the position that we had.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

10             Could we have page 101 back.  I would just like to read a small

11     passage so that you see how much fire was coming from Igman.  So it's

12     towards the bottom of the second page.

13             For example, Jusuf Prazina fired from Igman during the course of

14     one day only, about 300 projectiles, 130 millimetres.  That's a cannon,

15     isn't it - against enemy facilities that could be targeted with

16     82-millimetre mortars.  Also, during two or three days only, several

17     thousand 120-millimetre shells were fired from Igman, twice as many as

18     could have been provided to other army units, and so on.

19             So Rasim Delic is criticising the excessive use of artillery and

20     mortar ammunition from Igman against Serb Sarajevo.  How is it that the

21     world public was not aware of that, with that many correspondents in

22     Sarajevo?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, Your Honour, but obviously I can't

25     read this.  I wonder if there is a date or time-frame to help the

Page 2553

 1     witness -- what the witness was asked about.  We don't know whether

 2     this has -- when this is being spoken of.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but it's impossible to find out without

 4     translation.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Well, if I can help, the only thing I can see is

 6     the 24th of "Octobra," which I imagine is the 24th of October, is

 7     mentioned just ahead of those projectiles.  But Mr. Karadzic can correct

 8     me if I'm wrong.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and further down it says

10     the 14th of December, so it was already the second half of the year;

11     1992, that is.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So with that, can you answer the question,

13     Mr. van Lynden?

14             THE WITNESS:  One moment, Your Honour.  Let me just go back to

15     it.

16             I was not aware of Mr. Delic criticising the excessive use of

17     artillery, because he did not tell us.  I did not meet General Delic

18     until the following year, or even further, and right at the beginning of

19     1994, so I am not aware of Bosnian Army commanders criticising the

20     excessive use of artillery and mortar ammunition from Mount Igman against

21     Serb Sarajevo.  I don't -- I'm not aware of any of the other

22     correspondents at that time in Sarajevo - I wasn't there at that time in

23     October; I was there in December - of a statement from the Bosnian Army

24     command criticising the artillery or the use of artillery from

25     Mount Igman.

Page 2554

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My point here is the 300 projectiles coming from Howitzers and

 3     several 120-millimetre shells, the point is not the fact that they regret

 4     excessive use of ammunition, but the fact that Serb lives are lost in the

 5     process.  And my objection is:  Why does the international public opinion

 6     not know about that, with all of you being there in Sarajevo?  However,

 7     the fact remains that that was not known of, and this Tribunal does not

 8     know about it or has not known about it until now.

 9             So, anyway, let's move on.  Page 104.

10        A.   Wait a second.  Mr. Karadzic, you asked the question in relation

11     to the criticism of Mr. Delic.  We were not aware of the criticism of

12     Mr. Delic.  I answered your question.  That's the question you asked.  If

13     you're asking a separate question, why did we not report that?  We

14     reported that there was fire going in both directions.  I do not recall

15     specifically these events of the 300 shells that you -- that Mr. Delic

16     writes about.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I said that thanks to that criticism from their own

18     sources, we managed to get information again from their own sources.

19             So we're going to leave this book aside now.  Could this page be

20     admitted into evidence?

21             Actually, I wanted to ask you whether you knew that the Muslim

22     army had constant relations with Iran and Pakistan, and did you report

23     about that?  Did you inform the international public about that?

24        A.   I did not report, because I was not aware of any co-operation

25     between the Bosnian Army and Iran and Pakistan, no.

Page 2555

 1        Q.   All right.  We provided information about that, but we were not

 2     being taken seriously.

 3             We are going to abandon the subject, because Mr. van Lynden

 4     doesn't know about this.  1D01180 is what I would like to have now.

 5     1D01180.

 6             While we're waiting for that, let me inform you this is the 6th

 7     of December, 1992.  So you should see how accurate these reports are of

 8     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

 9             We haven't got a translation yet, so I'm going to read this out.

10     There's a hard copy, if somebody wants one, but I can read it out.

11             The 6th of December, 1992:

12             "Throughout the day, from 2.00 until 1700 hours, the enemy fired

13     from artillery pieces from Igman and Hrasnica against Ilidza, Hadzici,

14     Vojkovici, Lukavica, the Slobodan Princip Seljo Barracks, and positions

15     of the 1st and 2nd Sarajevo Brigade.  Over 300 shells were fired, and a

16     great deal of material damage was inflicted."

17             And then the last paragraph, number 7:

18             "Two fighters were killed and nine wounded, two of them

19     seriously.  At Ilidza, 15 women and children were wounded."

20             Again, there's a reference to 300 shells, just like the Muslim

21     commander, Delic.  However, this man is reporting about losses too.

22     Fifteen women and children, Serb women and children, at Ilidza, do they

23     merit the attention of international media?  On the 5th, you reported

24     about Otes, and this is on the 6th of December.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 2556

 1        Q.   They are worthy of the attention of the international public;

 2     right?  Nevertheless, this was not broadcast.

 3        A.   First, I do not remember being informed of that.  I was in the

 4     Bosnian Army-controlled part of Sarajevo at that time, and it was no

 5     longer -- I would no longer have been able to cross over to Ilidza, as I

 6     had in June 1992.  By that time, that would have been much more

 7     complicated.  But nor do I remember being informed by this either from

 8     London, where the information would have been sent, I imagine, by your

 9     government, or finding this out -- this information in Sarajevo.  It

10     happened on the other side of the front-lines.  While we were on one side

11     of the front-lines, we report what we know of there.  But certainly if I

12     had been in Ilidza, yes, it absolutely would have merited reporting.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can this document be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would object, Your Honour.  The witness hasn't

17     been able to speak to it at all.  The witness has made clear that he

18     can't comment about it, that he was in the center of Sarajevo, that he

19     wasn't informed about this incident, that he wasn't taken there, and that

20     he couldn't have been there at that time.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  The same rule will apply.  The witness was not in

23     the position to comment on this document at all.  On that basis, we do

24     not admit this through this witness.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 2557

 1             Can I have 1D1222.  Briefly, just one paragraph from this

 2     document, instructions as to how journalists should be treated, as well

 3     as UNPROFOR personnel.  The 12th of September, 1992, that is the date.

 4     Page 3 of that document, item 18.  Page 3, item 18, General Galic and

 5     Colonel Krsmanovic.  General Galic:

 6             "Relation with members of UNPROFOR foreign journalists must be as

 7     correct and as civilised as can be and enable them to see our good sides

 8     and present it to our advantage."

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   If I tell you that foreign correspondents had no interest at all

11     in the Serb side of the story, what do you say to that?

12        A.   That you're talking utter nonsense.  We went to Pale.  We asked

13     to work there.  We went there in September 1992 and were, to a degree,

14     capable of working.

15             And in relation to the previous document, Mr. Karadzic, if you

16     could stop talking to your colleague for a second, when we were there in

17     September, we were taken to a front-line position outside Hadzici, a

18     Serb-held position.  It came under fire.  We filmed it and we reported

19     it.  If you are taken there, we put it on air.  If you're not taken

20     there, if you're not given the opportunity to work, then you cannot

21     report it.

22             Furthermore, just on this general point, I would also point out

23     to the Court that in April 1994, for reasons that the were never given, I

24     was banned, indeed, for life by the Serb authorities, something that was

25     also upheld when we asked by the Bosnian Serb authorities.  Then it

Page 2558

 1     becomes impossible to report from your side of the front-line.

 2        Q.   You mentioned arrests a few times.  When were you arrested, when

 3     did you provide information about that, and when did you inform us of

 4     your arrest in Pale?

 5             Can this document be admitted?

 6        A.   I haven't commented on the document.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  No, we do not admit it.  The same rule,

 8     Mr. Karadzic.  You didn't ask many questions about this, and then

 9     Mr. van Lynden didn't comment anything about this.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, these are instructions

11     provided by the corps commander as to how journalists should be treated.

12     This is directly linked to what Mr. van Lynden has been saying.  He's

13     been saying that we treated them poorly.  It's the other way around.

14     They treated us poorly, and that is why the response of our people on the

15     ground was as it was.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Wasn't that the case?  We were dissatisfied with international

18     media first, and then we reacted.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber has given its ruling.

20     Move on to your next question.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to have a document

22     placed on the ELMO.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2559











11  Page 2559 redacted.















Page 2560

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4             This is the first page, statement on Bosnia.  So this conference

 5     pertained to all of Yugoslavia, but this particular document concerns

 6     Bosnia only.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Isn't that right?  It's the end of August 1992.  At that point in

 9     time, Vance and Owen took over from Carrington; right?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

11             Mr. Nicholls.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, could we go into private

13     session for one moment?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm just checking to make sure, but I believe this

16     is in --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2561











11  Pages 2561-2563 redacted. Private session.















Page 2564

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, now we are in open session.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I offer a document, just one

11     sentence from it, which shows that Rasim Delic opposed demilitarisation

12     in Sarajevo?  Could we put it on the ELMO, please.  And tomorrow we will

13     show what General Rose had to say about that.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just, Your Honours, again it's an untranslated

16     document that we weren't provided with before.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But you were notified of its use?

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  No.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Can you give some explanation, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this is a document

21     that was used by another Defence team, and it was admitted into evidence

22     in that case.  In view of the fact that the Prosecutor objects to the

23     cumulative nature of the exhibits that we are offering for admittance

24     into evidence, which we do not really agree with, we just want to show

25     what was being reported in the international media, including the

Page 2565

 1     Sky News, and what the actual situation was in Sarajevo.  And with this

 2     document, I'm just seeking to show that the other side, the opposite

 3     side, was against demilitarisation.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm not raising that point.  My point

 5     was simply the procedural rule we set up and you agreed upon.

 6             You need to notify the Prosecution in advance of when you start

 7     your cross-examination, of the documents you are going to use during the

 8     cross-examination; and you're also obliged to offer the translation.  You

 9     didn't inform the parties, and in particular the Prosecution of this

10     document, and even without translation.  So what I want you to answer is

11     why this happened.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as I've already said, we've

13     given up and decided not to use many of the documents that we wanted to

14     use because of the Prosecution's objection to their cumulative nature.

15     And this is something that I wanted to clear up with this witness today,

16     and that was mentioned in our interview.  If you do not agree to this, I

17     will withdraw the document, and I will ask for another one to be shown.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, do you object to putting this

19     document -- to using this document?

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour, not on the basis of its late use.

21     I just note that that makes problems for us, and that I hope it doesn't

22     continue to occur, although I know sometimes things do come up.  There's

23     a pattern here.

24             Mr. Reid has found a translation which we could provide to the

25     Chamber.

Page 2566

 1             The relevance at this point is beyond me, but I don't object on

 2     the basis that it was provided to us late.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   My question was this:  Mr. van Lynden, in our interview you said

 7     that you felt that our readiness and our agreement to demilitarisation

 8     was never taken [realtime transcript read in error "was taken"]

 9     seriously.  In order to contest that, I showed the other document where I

10     showed that we accepted, at the London Conference, to negotiate

11     demilitarisation.  And here in this document I'm --

12             In the transcript, it says that it was taken seriously, but your

13     claim was that it wasn't taken seriously.

14             And at the London Conference, we accepted that this be an item

15     for negotiations, and from this document here, the highlighted portion,

16     it says:

17             "Demilitarisation of Sarajevo is out of the question for

18     following reasons:"

19             And then the reasons are listed.

20             Can we now take a look at the bottom of the page and see that it

21     was signed by Rasim Delic.

22             Therefore, the question for you, Mr. van Lynden, is :  Can we see

23     clearly from this that it was the Muslim side who did not want Sarajevo

24     to be demilitarised?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have the English translation?

Page 2567

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.  I was just going to say, Your Honour, the

 2     only fair thing is to let the witness read the document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but let the English translation be put on the

 4     ELMO.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  And I'd ask that the witness be given a moment to

 6     review the document.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, this is quite a complicated document

 8     that I'm being asked to give an immediate reaction to.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But the question for you is whether it was the

10     Muslim side who did not want Sarajevo to be demilitarised.

11             THE WITNESS:  This document dates from April 1995, and not the

12     August conference of 1992, so there's already a separation there.  The

13     document also is related to what is happening at that time in Bihac, in

14     Northern Bosnia.  So I don't see the link with your previous document of

15     the August conference, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may -- well, we don't have

17     General Rose's book in e-court yet.  We'll have it by tomorrow.  But the

18     reports from 1992, 1993, and 1995, General Rose explains why the Muslim

19     side refused the Serbian proposal for the demilitarisation of Sarajevo.

20     But you've told us what you were able to.

21             Can this document be admitted into evidence?

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  On the face of the document, the Chamber is

24     satisfied with the relevance -- its relevance and of the probative value

25     of the document.  Therefore, we'll admit this.

Page 2568

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D209.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Could we now have 1D01141.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   While we are waiting for it to come up, let me just remind you.

 6     You said that you were in Hadzici.  Was this in early September 1992; am

 7     I right?

 8        A.   The later part of September 1992.  This was outside of Hadzici,

 9     in the woods.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Here we have a document describing what was happening

11     to us on September 7, 1992, a report from the Command of the Sarajevo

12     Romanija Corps sent to the Main Staff.

13             Under number 1, we see it says:

14             "During the last reporting period, enemy actions became

15     intensified through combined infantry and artillery attacks on nearly all

16     defence lines.

17             "We note:

18             "An enemy infantry attack on Ozrenska Street was repelled, two

19     conscripts lightly wounded."

20             Did you know where Ozrenska Street was?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you.  The reason I ask this is that there was daily

23     fighting there.

24             Now, the next paragraph :

25             "A strong infantry attack on Vojkovici area.  The enemy attacked

Page 2569

 1     Krtelj and Krupac.  And the first line of defence and the depth of our

 2     territory came under heavy artillery fire.  Three conscripts were

 3     wounded, and one feature was damaged.

 4             "Heavy artillery fire against Ilinjaca," and so on and so forth.

 5             And then the next portion that refers to civilian.  It says:

 6             "In Ilidza, there were strong enemy attacks and intense artillery

 7     fire on the centre of Ilidza.  The post office building was hit,

 8     significant material damage, three soldiers wounded.  The enemy shelled

 9     from Hadzici.  No losses -- no personnel losses.  Significant material

10     damage."

11             Then under number 3, it says:

12             "The situation in the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo

13     Romanija Corps is complex, and shelling further exacerbates the difficult

14     situation."

15             Losses and casualties:  14 soldiers and 10 technical -- or pieces

16     of equipment were damaged.

17             So you can see that throughout September -- and you say that you

18     were there in the second half of September, but here, this is a

19     description of what was happening in the first part of September.  So we

20     see that there was fierce shelling of this part of Sarajevo.  Do you

21     agree?

22        A.   I don't know if there was fierce shelling of this part of

23     Sarajevo at the beginning of September.  I was actually in Pale.  It

24     wasn't mentioned to me, as I recall at the time, nor was I taken there to

25     be shown, by either people from your government or from your army, that

Page 2570

 1     this was taking place.  I was in Pale.  We went into Grbavica.  I never

 2     witnessed from -- while I was on your side of the front-lines, heavy

 3     shelling.  I did witness that one shot was fired into Grbavica from the

 4     Bosnian government side, and that there was machine-gun fire in return.

 5     And we filmed that, and we put that out onto air.  That's all I can say.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, my colleagues told you about how to

 7     use your time for cross-examination or, in particular, how to

 8     cross-examine the witness.  This question, to me, seems to be an example

 9     of a waste of time.  You read out all the document, or most of it, to

10     which the witness said, I don't know.  You're reading out does not

11     constitute evidence.  The way you should proceed was to put your

12     question, summarising the document in a simple manner, and if the witness

13     says he doesn't know, you can bring another witness at a later stage, and

14     then it is for the Chamber to assess overall credibility and what

15     happened and what did not happen.  So reading out the document is not a

16     proper way of putting your questions.

17             Let's move on.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Where were you on the 31st of December, 1992?

20        A.   At home.

21        Q.   You weren't in Sarajevo; right?

22        A.   I was not in Sarajevo, no.  I left Sarajevo before -- towards the

23     end of December to go to Belgrade, because there were elections in

24     Belgrade.

25        Q.   Let us then go back to something that you said earlier about the

Page 2571

 1     convoys in relation to Srebrenica.

 2             Could we see 1D00271, please.

 3             It says here that in your statement of this year, the 25th and

 4     26th of February, 2010, on page 0674-9991, you said -- this is the same

 5     statement, several pages of it, and you said that you were in Srebrenica

 6     when you joined an UNPROFOR convoy, but that the convoy had -- the

 7     previous convoy was banned from getting through the blockade in Bratunac,

 8     where a fake protest took place.  In other words, there was a fake

 9     protest going on.

10             [In English] "For the benefit of the world media that was

11     present --"

12        A.   Can I stop you here, Mr. Karadzic, because you're making a

13     mistake.  I was not in Srebrenica.  I went with the UN convoy from

14     Sarajevo into Serbia and then was with them as they tried to enter the

15     enclave of Srebrenica.  I wasn't in Srebrenica on my own beforehand.  I

16     went with the UNPROFOR convoy.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  But you said there that this protest

18     was fake and that the -- that this was staged for the benefit of

19     international -- of world media who were there, present there, which

20     suggests that the Serb side wanted the world to be informed or to be told

21     that this column -- this convoy was unable to get through.  And what was

22     the fake aspect, as you suggest here?  What was -- how was that

23     evidenced?

24        A.   UNPROFOR and the UNHCR had had an agreement with your government

25     that this convoy could, on a particular day, as I recall in November

Page 2572

 1     1992, cross from Serbia, through the territory controlled by your forces,

 2     and enter the enclave of Srebrenica.  When they tried to do so, they were

 3     stopped by the military and told that they would not be allowed to enter.

 4     We were then taken to a demonstration where the only banners of protest

 5     were in English; not in Serbo-Croat, but in English.  The last time I saw

 6     that was in Iraq in 1980, when Iraq was governed by Saddam Hussein, and I

 7     and a number of international journalists went up to Iraqi Kurdistan and

 8     the only banners there were in English as well.  That indicates to me

 9     that something was prepared for the world media rather than for the local

10     people, most of whom -- in fact, we didn't encounter anyone who spoke

11     English, when we actually asked them.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then have 1D00271 -- oh,

13     that's the same document, okay.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Now, Mr. van Lynden, let's take a look now at this.  I have a

16     document showing that this was built into the document of the Main Staff.

17     On the 28th of November, 1990 --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure of the year.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... an unannounced column

21     arrived carrying aid for the Bratunac inhabitants.  There were six

22     vehicles in the convoy.

23             Now, do you -- would you accept, Mr. van Lynden, that a soldier

24     is not allowed to allow through an unannounced column or convoy because

25     he does not have the liberty to do that?

Page 2573

 1        A.   As I recall, it wasn't a soldier.  It was an officer.  I cannot

 2     be certain of the rank, but as I recall, it was -- he held the rank of

 3     major.  But it may have been a Potpukovnik lieutenant-colonel.

 4             As far as we had been informed both by UNPROFOR - and there was

 5     an UNPROFOR detachment with the column - and by UNHCR, which was

 6     responsible for the convoy of food, this was not only announced, but had

 7     been agreed by your government that on that particular date this convoy

 8     could enter the enclave of Srebrenica.  Of course, it is possible that

 9     the officer concerned had not been informed by your government, and,

10     therefore, because he had not been informed, he did not allow the convoy

11     to pass.  However, the convoy took several days before it was finally

12     able to get into Srebrenica, and it can't have taken several days for

13     someone to inform the officer that your government had given the

14     agreement to the UNHCR and to UNPROFOR to allow that convoy of food to

15     enter Srebrenica.

16        Q.   General Talic reported that this convoy was unannounced, and even

17     had he been a general, unless he had approval from the state committee

18     and unless this convoy was pre-announced, he would not have had -- he

19     would not have been allowed to let them go through.

20             And let's see what it says here, where it mentions the influence

21     of the president, Mr. Karadzic:

22             "The citizens of these places understood the situation, and after

23     the convoy was checked, it was allowed through and arrived in Srebrenica

24     on the same day."

25             So it was on the same day, and not a few days later.

Page 2574

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. van Lynden:  Mr. Nicholls, do

 2     you have any --

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, Your Honour.

 4             Just for a point of clarity, this is not a report from

 5     General Talic, the 1 KK commander.  The translation I've got is that this

 6     is information which has been passed on to General Talic.  And just the

 7     way the question was phrased made it sound as though General Talic was

 8     involved in this incident and was reporting what had happened.  In my

 9     looking at this document, that is not correct.  General Talic was head of

10     the 1 KK in Banja Luka on the complete other side, so that's just for the

11     record.

12             JUDGE KWON:  At the end of the document, it says "Momir Talic,

13     General," does it not?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Explain.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  It does, Your Honour, but I think what

16     General Talic is doing is passing on information he's received from the

17     Main Staff.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, Talic received from the

20     Main Staff this information, and he's forwarding it further, but not in

21     its entirety as received from the Main Staff.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So you remember the question, Mr. van Lynden?

23             THE WITNESS:  Well, I remember one part of it, whether it all

24     happened on one day, and the answer is, no, it did not.  We were there

25     for several days, staying inside Serbia, before the convoy was finally

Page 2575

 1     able to pass.  And as far as I'm aware, Your Honours, that was the first

 2     UNHCR convoy to be allowed into Srebrenica.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And what was your question, Mr. Karadzic, about the

 4     influence of President Karadzic?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Well, here the army reports that because of the influence of the

 7     Main Staff and the president of the Presidency, they exerted their

 8     influence on the people to allow this convoy to get through.  And this

 9     was not the first convoy, but the nth convoy, but we will prove that

10     easily.

11             So here we have your allegation that this was actually a fake

12     protest.  And our position -- and we claim that it wasn't fake.  And this

13     document, strictly confidential, exchanged between commands of the

14     Serbian Army reports that we had to use our influence to make the people

15     agree to allow the convoy through.  So that is my question.  Why did you

16     say that it was fake, when from this we can see that this protest was not

17     fake?

18        A.   I think I've already answered that question.  It was our

19     impression that this was an organised fake demonstration.  And when the

20     convoy was given the green light by your armed forces, we never saw any

21     demonstrators at all.

22        Q.   If I may just say this briefly.  You've said this a number of

23     times, but now we hear you saying that this was your impression.  So then

24     I would ask you to always state clearly that it is your impression, and

25     then we can easily work out the facts from impressions.

Page 2576

 1             So in the cases of Galic and Milosevic, these two received very

 2     high sentences, and yet they were based on impressions?

 3        A.   I'm not aware of Mr. Milosevic being sentenced at all.  Nor in

 4     the sentence of Mr. Galic, that was up to the Tribunal and not up to me,

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             What we saw in Bratunac was a demonstration where the only

 7     banners that were held, or pieces of paper, were in English and in no

 8     other language.  Therefore, we concluded that this was aimed at the

 9     international media and that this was an organised event.

10        Q.   Well, I was referring to General Milosevic, not to

11     President Milosevic.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of Milosevics here.

12             But, Mr. van Lynden, what I am trying to say is this:  Even if it

13     was organised, it was organised by the people, because they knew that you

14     were not reporting properly.  And we can see from this confidential

15     intelligence that they allowed the people to get -- the columns to get

16     through.

17             Can we have this document admitted into evidence, please?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't object.

20             JUDGE KWON:  On that basis, and on the basis of relevance, we'll

21     admit this document.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D210, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll rise for today.

24             Yes.  Judge Morrison has something.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Just two things.

Page 2577

 1             First of all, just to clear one point up for me, please, if you

 2     could, Mr. van Lynden, in your statement you often talk about incendiary

 3     bullets or ammunition.  By that, do you mean tracer rounds, or are you

 4     distinguishing between tracer and incendiary?

 5             THE WITNESS:  I mean incendiary.  A tracer round is different to

 6     an incendiary round, in my -- to my knowledge.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, to my knowledge, it is, too, and I was

 8     just wondering whether or not you made that distinction.  It appears that

 9     you had.

10             The second, really, is for you, Dr. Karadzic.  Although it's not

11     something you can be forced to do, by any means, but it just seems to me

12     that with the relatively limited amount of time we have tomorrow, if

13     there are any lengthy documents that you intend to put to Mr. van Lynden

14     tomorrow, it might be a useful exercise to indicate which they are after

15     we've risen and to supply copies.  Mr. van Lynden won't thank me very

16     much for extending his bedtime reading, but it might do some good for the

17     efficiency of the court tomorrow morning.  It's just a suggestion which

18     you can accept or, of course, reject.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So tomorrow we will resume --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, may I just reply?

21             Since we have a lot of documents that are cumulative in nature,

22     I, myself, was considering the possibility of offering them through a

23     Bar table motion so that the entire documents could be admitted into

24     evidence.  And tomorrow I intend to show Mr. van Lynden numerous reports

25     from other media, well-known media.  Perhaps I could provide them for

Page 2578

 1     Mr. van Lynden to take a look at tonight, and also General Rose's book.

 2     And it is our view that something that Mr. van Lynden said here was

 3     rather vague, and I just want to be more precise about it.  And I'm not

 4     saying that Mr. van Lynden did this intentionally, but, however, if any

 5     evidence is offered here and it is imprecise or based on impressions,

 6     then it needs to be made more precise and clear.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             We'll resume at 8.30 tomorrow morning and go until 11.00, at

 9     which time Mr. van Lynden has to leave, during which session we'll have a

10     15 minutes' break.  In the meantime, after the conclusion of

11     Mr. Van Lynden's evidence, we'll have another 15 minutes' break and we'll

12     continue to hear the witness, and we'll go until 1.30.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 21st day of May,

16                           2010, at 8.30 a.m.