Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4340

 1                           Wednesday, 30 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everybody.

 7             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             Before we commence, I wanted to raise one scheduling issue.  I'm

10     sure it doesn't come as a surprise to the Court that any change in the

11     courtroom schedule has a potential knock-on effect with the witness

12     scheduling and sometimes results in the necessity for a change in witness

13     order, as it does in this case.

14             Based on the information that the Court provided yesterday, and

15     because of the lack of flexibility with respect to one witness, the

16     previous order of witnesses following Mr. Mandic, which was to be

17     Mr. Mandilovic, Mr. Abdel-Razek, and Mr. Mole, will be Mandilovic, Mole,

18     and Abdel-Razek.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Let's continue.

21                           WITNESS:  KDZ-185 [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, everyone.

24             Did I understand correctly that we did not admit the last

25     document we saw yesterday?

Page 4341

 1             JUDGE KWON:  You're talking about 1D1491.  I don't think it has

 2     been admitted, but to be sure ...

 3             I said the witness didn't confirm anything about the document,

 4     and so I said the Chamber will not admit this document.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Sorry to have brought

 6     it up.  There is a decision, then.

 7             May I call up 1D1525.  This is the document.  The date is 5 May,

 8     1993.

 9             Can we see the next page?  It's a regular combat report to the

10     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  We can deliver the translation in a couple of

13     moments, as soon -- well, you hear the printer, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please look at the first page, and

18     then we'll move on to the second and maybe even third in English.

19             Can we see page 3 now?  The next one.  The participants we can

20     all see, but I'm interested in the next page.

21             It says:

22             "Expectations of increased mortar and sniper fire, with the aim

23     of softening the terrain, especially on the north-western part of the

24     front."

25             So we have certain expectations of their activity.

Page 4342

 1             And then it goes on to say:

 2             "The enemy is trying to provoke our units into action by firing

 3     from a distance.  At about 1030 hours today, the enemy fired their own

 4     guns at the BH Presidency building in the Ukrainian Battalion Command.

 5     They tried to blame this shooting on the Army of Republika Srpska by

 6     protesting to the representatives of the UNPROFOR and the mass media."

 7             Did you know, Witness, that these things were happening?

 8        A.   As far as I know, while I was there, I never heard of any fire

 9     against the Presidency.  And by the same token, there was never any fire

10     from the other party against Lukavica.

11        Q.   I don't know if I remember correctly whether it was you or the

12     previous witness who mentioned the visit of Mrs. Sadako Ogata and the

13     incoming fire from the vicinity of the Presidency, in the hope that we

14     would return fire.  But these were tricks.  Even when we were not opening

15     fire, they did, trying to blame us.

16        A.   Yes, I was aware of that, because we were also sometimes indirect

17     victims of that.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this document be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.  The witness didn't say anything

21     about this document.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He did about the phenomenon in

23     general.

24             All right.  Can we now see 1D01957 on the ELMO, perhaps, with the

25     English translation.  In e-court, it's 01 -- sorry, 1D01957.

Page 4343

 1             This is a letter by General Nambiar to Goulding and Vance, dated

 2     21 January, 1993.  We can see that now.

 3             Can we just take a brief look at page 2 and then move on to 3, 4,

 4     5.

 5             This is the second page.  Can we see the next one?

 6             This is a letter by General Morillon to Izetbegovic, and the

 7     subject is "Violations of Geneva Conventions by the Muslim army."

 8             Can we see the next page?

 9             This is from the 19th of January, and this one is 13 January

10     also, "Shooting at a UN soldier in Gornji Vakuf."  Again, by a Muslim.  A

11     protest letter by General Morillon to Izetbegovic.  Muslim fire at the

12     airport in Sarajevo.

13        A.   It doesn't appear on the screen.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Did the witness see the previous

15     pages?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about the previous

17     pages, but I haven't seen the last one where it is mentioned regarding

18     the runway at the airport.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope we'll see the last page now.

20     This was the first one.  Can we see the next one?  That's the last one.

21     That's the one I'm reading now again, the 19th of January.

22             And again General Morillon, with the warmest greetings, lodges a

23     protest with the president, and in the second sentence, it says:

24             "At 1645 hours on 16 January 1993 ..."

25             [In English] "At 1645 hours on 16th of January, 1993, 10 mortar

Page 4344

 1     rounds impacted the Sarajevo airport.  Five mortar bombs landed around

 2     the northern check-point, four around the airport control radar, and the

 3     last one landed on the weather station ..."

 4             [Interpretation] And so on.  In the last paragraph:

 5             [In English] "We will, of course, understand the damage that the

 6     revelation of this incident could do to your cause."

 7             [Interpretation] Did you know about these incidents and the

 8     protests lodged with Izetbegovic.

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)  But I don't recall this incident, but I'm not surprised, not

12     very much surprised.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, perhaps page 9, lines -- or page 5,

15     lines 9 and 10, warrant redaction.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's clear from this that the

18     shells were fired from Hrasnica, which is the Muslim side.

19             Can this document be admitted?  Three letters.  The witness is

20     aware of certain incidents, and the other doesn't surprise him.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder about your last comment or the question.

22             Mr. Witness, do you agree that shells were fired from Hrasnica,

23     which was the Muslim side?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree that it could have

25     happened.  I don't recall this specific incident, because there were

Page 4345

 1     several incidents of this type.  But as for this very incident, I am not

 2     surprised.  And I pick up on what Mr. Karadzic was saying, saying that I

 3     was surprised.  I'm not surprised by this sort of incident.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  This is admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D351, Your Honours, perhaps under

 6     seal.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether this should be put under seal.

 8     We redacted the certain passage in the transcript, and I don't think it

 9     should be under seal.  It should be a public document.

10             Let's move on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we now see 1D01960, but without broadcasting the document.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't -- I don't see why it couldn't be

15     broadcast, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Then maybe the condition the accused has -- I'm not

17     sure.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.  I am in favour of having

19     everything in public, but I'm just not sure whether there could be some

20     names here.  For instance, in paragraph 3, the name of the --

21             JUDGE KWON:  I see the point.  So let's not broadcast this

22     document, and let us move on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Thank you for your understanding.  I draw your attention to the

25     entire document.  It says:

Page 4346

 1             "The Muslims fired on the humanitarian convoy of the Serbian

 2     Orthodox Church at Butmir airport near Sarajevo on March 5,

 3     Father Filaret of the Serbian Orthodox Church, who was in the convoy ..."

 4             [In English] "Father Filaret said that fire from all kinds of

 5     weapons had come exclusively from the left-hand side of the airport

 6     entrance, where Muslim forces have their positions."

 7             [Interpretation] And now look at the next one:

 8             [In English] "Sarajevo Television, which is controlled by the

 9     Muslim authorities, shifted the blame for the incident on the Serbs, but

10     commander of the United Nations Protection Forces in Sarajevo," some

11     colonel, "denied the accusation, recalled Father Filaret."

12             [Interpretation] We skip one:

13             [In English] "The convoy consisted of 10 trucks carrying 10 [sic]

14     tonnes of flour, of which 50 tonnes were intended for Muslims and 25 each

15     for the Serb and Croats, he said."

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you recall that convoy and the fire at the convoy?

18        A.   You will see that my memory doesn't always fail me, and I fully

19     recall this incident.  In fact, once everything was settled, I wanted to

20     see for myself what the situation was, and so I went on location.  And

21     I can, therefore, confirms what it -- it's a document from the

22     Tanjug Agency, and I believe that it confirms what I said yesterday;

23     namely, that we really wanted to be impartial.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             May this document be admitted?

Page 4347

 1             JUDGE KWON:  There's no problem in admitting this, but my

 2     question is whether we need to put it under seal or not, because I read

 3     the transcript again and the reason why this document should not be

 4     broadcast was not clear, so there's no problem in admitting it publicly.

 5     That will be done.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D352.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I welcome every opportunity to have

 8     everything in public, but I'm trying to be cooperative with the measures

 9     that have been granted.

10             Can we now see 1D465.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, while we're waiting:  Is the name Jovan Divjak familiar

13     to you?

14        A.   You're probably talking about Colonel Divjak, who was part of the

15     Bosnian Army and who was of Serb origin.

16        Q.   Well, he is a Serb still.  He's not just of Serb origin.  But he

17     stayed there despite the fact that the Bosnian Army started proceedings

18     against him.

19        A.   I didn't realise that proceedings had been started against him,

20     but I assume that the Yugoslav Army did not see very positively that he

21     had joined the Bosnian Army.

22        Q.   Before the war, the JNA started these proceedings, and I think

23     that's one of the things that made him join the Bosnian Army.

24             Can we see the next page of this document?

25             This, as you can see, is dated 20 June, Security Administration,

Page 4348

 1     which is the military secret police.  This is a Muslim document.  It

 2     says:

 3             "The chief of security of the Guard Brigade Delta, under the

 4     influence of others in the command, wrote a letter to the commander of

 5     the Sector of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces of the Republic of

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina, the chief of SVK, Command of the 1st Corps, and

 7     the chief of the Security Administration, in which he, in an unclear

 8     context, makes the assumption that their brigade in the barrack Velesici

 9     is being shelled, and this is an integral part of the total effort to

10     destroy the Guard Brigade."

11             And at that end, it says:

12             "The disconnect of this unit from the command-and-control system

13     can also be seen by the fact that the security organ of that brigade,

14     under the influence of the commanding officers in the brigade, is

15     allowing himself to communicate with the commander of the SVK, the chief

16     of the VK headquarters, and the 1st Corps Command."

17             Is it clear that they carried out bombardments of their own

18     people very often, and there were clashes not between just Caco and the

19     1st Brigade, but the Guards Brigade was attacked in this instance by the

20     1st Motorised Brigade?

21        A.   Is that a question?

22        Q.   Yes.  Yes, it is a question.  Did you know that they clashed

23     among themselves?

24        A.   No, I was not aware of those internal events.  I was only aware

25     of - how should I say it? - how the ranks of the Bosnian Army had been

Page 4349

 1     cleaned up from, I believe, the spring of 1993.  But as for the details,

 2     I was not aware of them because I did not belong to the Bosnian Army and

 3     I did not belong to the Serb Army either.

 4        Q.   Well, I could agree had the army been cleansed of Juka Prazina

 5     since April.  Did you hear of the name Juka Prazina,

 6     General Juka Prazina?  Have you heard of him?

 7        A.   "Juka" rings a bell, but I don't remember.  Perhaps it's the one

 8     who was killed afterwards or perhaps in Belgium, unless I'm mistaken.

 9        Q.   No, you're not wrong.  That's precisely the man.  And in April, I

10     assume that he fled to Igman and then afterwards with the HVO -- or,

11     rather, the HOS, but he was killed in October 1993, right, or November

12     1993?  Caco, Caco, was killed.  Musan Topalovic, nicknamed Caco, was

13     killed in 1993, or November?

14        A.   Yes.  I was no longer in charge at the time, but I did hear about

15     that in my new position.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you know that in Velesici there was a

17     barracks for this Guards Brigade and that they had firing positions

18     there, a tank and so on?

19        A.   You would have to give me more details about those barracks.  The

20     name doesn't really ring a bell, but if you give me any idea as to the

21     unit, perhaps it will help me as to what it meant for me.

22        Q.   Well, the Guards Brigade called Delta was over there, and this

23     document speaks about that, that there was shooting at the barracks by

24     the 1st Motorised Brigade with the intention of gaining supremacy in

25     their internal balance of forces.

Page 4350

 1        A.   But I'm none the wiser as to where those barracks were.  It's

 2     always the same thing.  I do not recall all those names, and you would

 3     have to give me more details so that I can talk more about it.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Then I don't suppose I need tender this document; right?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very correct.

 7             Can we go into private session briefly.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we can do that, but I just

19     said one name.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             May we now have 1D456 next, please.

23             And it's a document from Jovan Divjak, the man we mentioned

24     earlier on, and at the time already he was most probably a general, the

25     deputy of the Chief of Staff of the Supreme Command.

Page 4351

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   That means that he was the number-two man in the army hierarchy;

 3     right?

 4        A.   I always knew him as a colonel.

 5        Q.   Very well.  The date here -- well, he might still have been a

 6     colonel.  But this is the 27th of May, 1993, and it's his resignation

 7     from the position of deputy of chief of staff, and so on, sending it to

 8     the Supreme Command and Izetbegovic, a letter of resignation from the

 9     position of deputy, et cetera, reasons for resigning.

10             Point 1:

11             "I tendered my resignation in May because of several violent

12     crimes against the citizens of Sarajevo.  In these incidents,

13     Musan Topalovic's, aka Caco's, gangsters seriously wounded my son,

14     Zelimir, in Marsal Tito Street."

15             And then number 2, paragraph 2, it goes on to say how he wasn't

16     treated as a deputy, but as a third man.

17             And can we move on to the next page, please?  Or, rather, we can

18     stay with that page in the English.  No, next page for the English as

19     well and the B/C/S.

20             The whole document is about a resignation.  It's a resignation by

21     the number-two man in the army.

22             Now look at para 5:

23             "I do not agree with the actions of the Staff of the

24     Supreme Command of the Armed Forces concerning the current and the most

25     difficult period in the liberation war so far, where nobody is taking

Page 4352

 1     appropriate measures to stop the criminal conduct of some military

 2     personnel.  (I do not agree that these are deserving BH Army commanders)

 3     against the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 4             And then he says:

 5             "I don't know who gave permission for private prisons to be set

 6     up in Hrasnica and Dobrinja."

 7             And then -- well, let me ask you:  Did you know that private

 8     prisons existed?  We informed the public about that, but did you know

 9     that there was a private prison in Sarajevo for Serbs?

10        A.   No, I did not have that type of information.  I saw -- I

11     accompanied some official persons from the outside who led exchanges of

12     prisoners, and I had the possibility to visit two prisons, but those were

13     official prisons which existed in Sarajevo.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And did you know about this conduct or, rather, this

15     move by Colonel Divjak, as he probably was then, this step that he took?

16        A.   No.  I was aware that he did not agree with everything that was

17     being done inside the Bosnian Army and that he probably suggested that

18     this army should be re-organised.  And he, as a professional soldier,

19     because as I reminded you earlier on, he was a member of the

20     Yugoslav Army earlier on, and so he wanted everything to be done

21     according to the Rules of War.

22        Q.   Now look what it says down there towards the bottom of the page:

23             "Despite information about the criminal actions of the 10th

24     Mountain Brigade available to the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces,

25     nothing is being done."

Page 4353

 1             May we now turn to the next page, please.  "I hereby request" is

 2     what I would like us to look at the bottom of the page:

 3             "I hereby request to be reassigned from the Supreme Command Staff

 4     to the position of soldier in the 10th Mountain Brigade of the RBH Army."

 5             And then he goes on to say:

 6             "And if you receive a report that I was killed because I tried to

 7     escape to the other side in 10 or 15 days' time, please do not believe

 8     it.  I support your Bosnia-Herzegovina with all my heart and soul."

 9             So a Serb, completely loyal to Alija Izetbegovic, has some

10     criticisms to make and says he doesn't like what is going on, and

11     mentions private prisons, and nobody seems to want to regulate that

12     issue.  Is that what you said when you said he didn't agree with certain

13     things that were happening in the BH Army?

14        A.   That is correct, and that is --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             I'd like to tender this document now, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Can you hear me?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

19             JUDGE KWON:  [Microphone not activated]

20             Yet again, I think we are having some technical difficult tools.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The booths can hear the Presiding Judge.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Can you hear me, Ms. Edgerton, now?  [Microphone not

23     activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  [B/C/S spoken]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objection, Ms. Edgerton?

Page 4354

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  I actually didn't hear you at that moment,

 2     Your Honour.  That's why I asked you to say something, and I didn't hear

 3     you at that moment.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The booths can hear the Presiding Judge.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Like my colleague here, I can here a lot of

 6     feedback from what's going on inside the booth, actually, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's now working.  Sorry for the

 8     inconvenience, Mr. Witness, again.

 9             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I really question the relevance of

11     this document in any regard; in fact, this whole line of questioning.  I

12     just -- I'd like to hear the relevance of it, if I may, Your Honour.  I

13     find it completely irrelevant to the situation, the witness's evidence,

14     and these proceedings.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something?

16     I'll explain why the Defence -- or how the Defence views this.

17             Before us, we have the 1st Corps of the BH Army, all power and

18     authority vested there, and in that small part of town controlled by them

19     you have terror against the Serbs and the Muslims.  The city is full of

20     soldiers, full of weapons, and full of criminals, and that has a

21     significant effect on our conduct, the conduct of our side, because we

22     are in conflict with the other side, and our conduct depends on their

23     conduct.  You have prisons for Serbs, you have cross-firing.  This man's

24     son -- this colonel's son was wounded.  So there's general chaos, and we

25     have to put that to the Trial Chamber so that the Trial Chamber can bear

Page 4355

 1     in mind what the situation was like over there.  And many of those

 2     incidents are ascribed to us and we are being held accountable, and they

 3     want to show that it was -- that Sarajevo was idyllic.  That's the kind

 4     of picture that was painted and has been painted so far, of an idyllic

 5     Sarajevo with only Serbs attacking.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, the Chamber is of the view that the

 8     accused can put his case to the witness, irrespective of the

 9     evidence-in-chief he'd given during the course of examination-in-chief.

10     As such, although the witness did not cover every bit about the content

11     of this document, he'll confirm to a certain extent the way Mr. Divjak

12     did not agree with the way conducted by the government at the time.  So

13     we find it relevant, and we'll admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D353, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             May we now have 1D419 next, please, on e-court.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   And while we're waiting, Witness, let me ask you this:  Did you

19     know the scope -- well, (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21     Do you know how much ammunition and how many weapons were actually

22     produced in Sarajevo?

23             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I didn't see you.  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, may we have private session for what

25     I'm about to say, please?

Page 4356

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honour.

Page 4357

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Witness, were you aware of the scope to which ammunition and

 3     weapons were being manufactured in the Muslim part of Sarajevo?

 4        A.   I was not aware of that at all.  I had no information about that

 5     whatsoever, and everything we -- I knew and that we already referred to,

 6     earlier on, was that the Bosnian Army had ammunition supplied from the

 7     outside and possibly also weapons.  And, personally, while walking at the

 8     end of the day in Sarajevo, I could see that these fighters were changing

 9     guard and changing shifts, and they were not armed; that is, that the

10     arriving people took the weapon of those who were on the front-line,

11     which showed to me that they probably had a big problem of ammunition and

12     weaponry.  And if they had easily manufactured that on the spot, they

13     would not have been confronted with that type of problem.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, if I tell you that in their sources, and

15     General Divjak writes about this, that 120-millimetre mines -- that

16     80.000 pieces were produced in the center of Sarajevo, would you be

17     surprised to hear that piece of information?

18        A.   You are saying that.  Well, yes, it would surprise me, but I hope

19     that you base that statement on a document, with value that can be

20     granted to such document.  And I would be rather surprised if this were

21     the case.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And do you exclude the possibility?

23             And in the meantime, may we have page 4 displayed.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we do not need the speculation on the

25     part of the witness.

Page 4358

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Let's look at page 4, the underlined part.  It says:

 3             "In connection with the recent explosion in the -- in connection

 4     with the resent explosion at the auxiliary workshop for the loading of

 5     gun shells at the Technical School in Sarajevo, which destroyed five

 6     rooms, it is suspected that it was deliberately caused, based on

 7     information received to date, by laying explosives inside the building,

 8     or, in other words, that it was an act of sabotage.

 9             "Operative measures are being taken to solve this case."

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, do you know where the Technical School was?

12        A.   I only knew one technical school.  At least that was the way we

13     called it.  It was the old school of [indiscernible].  But at the time I

14     was there, this was occupied by the Serb Army.  But there might have been

15     another school called Technical School in Sarajevo, but I do not know

16     where it was or whether it existed.

17        Q.   It's the Technical School, a nice building, a nice old Austrian

18     building, located between the Holiday Inn and the Marsal Tito Barracks.

19     Do you remember it better now?

20        A.   The place you're referring to, yes, that I can -- I remember it,

21     but I was not aware that there was a school.  I never went there, and

22     I've never heard about it before you referred to it today.

23        Q.   Thank you.  But this is their document, a Muslim document.  It

24     says that there was this explosion, destroying five rooms.  And I don't

25     doubt that they blamed us for that.  So do you know that an explosion of

Page 4359

 1     that kind would, as a general rule, have been ascribed to the Serbs and

 2     that Serbs would be blamed for it?

 3        A.   No.  Anyhow, I was not aware of this document.  I remind you that

 4     I'm not a member of the Bosnian Army, so I was not an addressee of such a

 5     document.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Then I don't suppose you're going to admit this document into

 8     evidence.

 9             May we then have 1D1547 next, please.

10             This is a regular combat report from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

11     sent to the Main Staff on the 10th of June, 1993.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  The translation will be on the way.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you again.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I thank you too.

15             [In English] Please, the first page to be identified, and then

16     we'll go -- and then we may go to third.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   This is a customary regular combat report, and it says what the

19     enemy is doing.

20             And we can now move on to the next page.

21             They are complaining that there's no food, ammunition, or fuel.

22             Let's move on to the next page.  [In English] It must be another

23     one next.  Point 5, point 5.

24             [Interpretation] Here we see that the command -- the corps

25     command is once again saying that there's no ammunition, fuel, and food;

Page 4360

 1     that the food they do get is always the same; that many people have

 2     nothing to eat, the soldiers' families have nothing to eat.

 3             Now -- [In English] Can we get point 8, please.

 4             [Interpretation] That's right.

 5             [In English] There may be some lifting --

 6             [Interpretation] Let's look at point A:

 7             "The Turks," it says, "are daily intensifying their attacks on

 8     all brigades with artillery, mortar, and sniper and rifle brigades.  The

 9     number of projectiles fired increases every day."

10             So the Sarajevo Romanija Corps has less and less ammunition,

11     whereas the 1st Corps of Bosnia-Herzegovina has more and more.

12             [In English] Can we put down there -- before point C in this

13     forecast, that must be next:

14             "We believe ..."

15             [Interpretation] "We believe that the Turks in Sarajevo are being

16     supplied with ammunition by UNPROFOR because there is no other logical

17     explanation of their expenditure of so much of it."

18             Now, do you know that there were suspicions along these lines?

19        A.   We were used to having the two parties present, that they were

20     rather paranoid in attitude, and this is a good example of such paranoid

21     attitude.

22        Q.   And do you know that in oxygen bottles, explosives were

23     introduced into Sarajevo, and this was confirmed by General Delic in his

24     memoirs, and our soldiers would even load them on to another place, and

25     he laughs in his memoirs, saying that the Chetniks didn't know what they

Page 4361

 1     were reloading?  So explosives entered Sarajevo in oxygen bottles, with

 2     the help of the United Nations.  Did you know about that?

 3        A.   There was an incident with the transport of black powder in

 4     oxygen tanks, and that was the beginning of 1993.  But as far as I know,

 5     this type of incident did not occur afterwards.  The UN forces were very

 6     much aware of it and were on their guards.

 7             I just want to remind you that these oxygen bottles were

 8     transported by humanitarian organisations, especially UNHCR, and not by

 9     UNPROFOR.  UNPROFOR was just escorting these convoys.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So you can only know about things you intercepted.

11     If you didn't intercept something, then it passed?

12        A.   I do not know whether anything else passed through.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Will this document be admitted?  It talks about all the various

15     things that were occurring and relates to the balance of power in

16     ammunition.

17             JUDGE KWON:  You'll have another opportunity, Mr. Karadzic, to

18     tender this document through another witness.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can I ask for private session for a while, and 65 ter --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- 09579.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4362











11  Page 4362 redacted. Private session.















Page 4363

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Would you agree if I say that the media, primarily the Western

21     media, favoured the Muslim side?  They were biased?

22        A.   I do not have to cast any judgement on the media.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             May I call up 1D1931.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4364

 1        Q.   And when we get the document, I'd like to ask you:  Are you aware

 2     that the Conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina began in the end of 1991 and

 3     early 1992, before the war broke out?

 4        A.   Yes, of course.

 5        Q.   Do you agree that that conference lasted continuously all the way

 6     up to the Dayton Accords, one conference after another?

 7        A.   I was reading the press, as you did.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14        Q.   Well, it's very important to establish whether there was a

15     possibility of fait accompli, in view of the fact that by joining the

16     conference, we gave up on the fait accompli option and validating

17     military gains in that way.  The war could not have given us anything

18     outside of the conference.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I had a mission that

21     I was fulfilling there.  As for the rest, this was not a matter to me.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Ms. Edgerton, you were concerned about the previous set of

24     question and answer?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

Page 4365

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll take care of it.  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see further down the page

 3     just to see how things were developing.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The secretary of the president of Republika Srpska, he's

 6     answering someone and says:

 7             "Dear sir.  As soon as we received your letter, we placed your

 8     sister, Ljiljana, and her husband, Proko Gojkovic, on the list of people

 9     who have priority in leaving the city.  Right now, nobody's leaving

10     Sarajevo because the Muslim authorities have strengthened controls,

11     especially after the clashes between Muslims and Croats.  Whether and

12     when it will be possible to leave the city again, we don't know, because

13     many things do not depend on us.  We will, on our part, do everything to

14     have that happen as soon as possible."

15             Are you aware, Witness, that the Muslim authorities did not do

16     anything to organise departures of civilians in any civilised form?

17        A.   Well, they were not refusing the departure of civilians towards

18     the outside of the city.  They were controlling, so, namely, they were

19     letting go only those that they were prepared to let go.

20        Q.   But if I tell you that they were not prepared to let them go,

21     they allowed only small numbers to leave, whereas the majority had to pay

22     criminals to take them in secret out of that territory, would you deny

23     that?

24        A.   Well, I don't think so, but I cannot contest this either, because

25     I have seen mafia-like behaviours within the city and outside the city,

Page 4366

 1     so I'm not surprised that some people were actually using the situation

 2     of high distress and they were doing some gainful exercise out of it.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Will this document be admitted or marked for identification?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the witness commented on this specific

 6     event, although he testified in general terms about the situation, so I

 7     don't think we have the basis to admit this one at this moment,

 8     Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             May I now ask for a map to be displayed.  It's in e-court,

11     actually.  Can we get 1D1088.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, you are very reserved when answering my questions.  You

14     are afraid to make any political evaluations and analysis.  That's not

15     exactly the same attitude as you have to the OTP.  When --

16             JUDGE KWON:  That's a comment, an unnecessary comment.  You put

17     your question.  Just let's come to your question.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to repeat what the witness

19     said before.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You said, Witness, that there had been a siege, and the point of

22     the siege was to cut off power, water, gas supply, et cetera, and now I'm

23     putting to you the next assertion.

24             Sarajevo was a divided city.  What you see before you is the

25     broader region of Sarajevo.  Both the city proper and the broader area of

Page 4367

 1     Sarajevo were divided.  There are lines showing these separations.

 2             Now, by defending its areas, and the blue areas are Serb, were we

 3     laying siege?

 4        A.   I believe that there were front-lines which were established as

 5     the combat progressed, and along those front-lines there were people that

 6     were outside and then they were blocking those that were within.  And the

 7     main part of it was within the city, apart from the Grbavica area of the

 8     city.

 9        Q.   Let me remind you.  You see Grbavica here, but do you see

10     Lukavica?  Do you see, in the far west, Ilidza, and a thin white line

11     marking the city proper, which includes Lukavica and Ilidza?  Those are

12     Serb neighbourhoods in the city.

13        A.   Your Honour, I hear the accused a lot better in his original

14     language than the translation into French, so it seems that once again we

15     have a problem with the sound coming from the various booths.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the question, Mr. Karadzic?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   From my previous question, it was not recorded.  Was that an

19     encirclement, as you referred to it several times, or was it a siege?

20        A.   Your Honour, the accused has a very strong voice, and it seems

21     that he's covering the translation.  So either we reduce the sound from

22     the accused or we strengthen the sound coming from the French.

23             JUDGE KWON:  One way of doing it is we take a break now, and then

24     that matter, hopefully, can be looked at.

25             We'll have a break for 25 minutes.

Page 4368

 1                           --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 3.55 p.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that the technical difficulties have

 4     been solved.

 5             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             With your leave and with all due respect, I have to express my

 8     regret once again that we don't have more time, but I will try to present

 9     as many things as I can in the remaining time.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness, here on the right are the lists of every populated area.

12     Every area is bordered in red.  And according to the census, it was

13     exactly established, which communities in the majority in which area, and

14     these are almost absolute majorities.  Do you see that the separation

15     line, the front-line in Sarajevo, is more or less consistent with the

16     ethnic composition?

17        A.   I don't quite understand your question or your comment.

18        Q.   Well, look, for instance, at the north-west.  Ilijas is there,

19     and the Serbian part of Ilijas is in Serbian hands.

20             Or perhaps it's better to move to the next map, 1D1081.  We'll

21     get every municipality separately, and we'll see what was controlled by

22     Muslims and what was controlled by Serbs.  1D -- yes, that's it.

23             Do you agree that this is the municipality of Pale?

24        A.   I have to say that I am not a specialist in reading Cyrillic

25     characters, and therefore I cannot see where "Pale" is written.

Page 4369

 1        Q.   It's written in the middle.  But do you believe me, that this is

 2     the Pale municipality?

 3        A.   I will gladly believe you.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that these three large green

 5     concentrations that designate the Muslim majority are not under the

 6     control of Republika Srpska?

 7        A.   I believe that the front-line on this map is the large black line

 8     which we see in the south/south-eastern part of this map.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we get 1D1082.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Now we see the Ilijas municipality, whereas the town of Ilijas,

13     the center of the municipality, is to the far west on this picture.  Do

14     you see that, as far as possible, the confrontation line coincides with

15     the ethnic separations?

16        A.   I think that if you look at what is on the side of the map, it

17     says that it's dated 31st of March, or it's based on the census from the

18     31st of March, 1981, which means that we are going back 12 years before

19     the matter at hand.  I know that there was quite a lot of population

20     movements following the first conflict, so I'm not quite sure whether one

21     could base any comments on such a document in order to make any remark or

22     comment regarding the ethnic make-up for the date that is at hand here.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Since Ms. Edgerton didn't rise, Mr. Karadzic, I have

24     to ask you.  Who drew these lines in, who wrote these letters?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did that, based on the

Page 4370

 1     front-line.  It's the separation line that we can see on all the other

 2     maps, and here they separated the zone of Sarajevo, broken down by

 3     municipalities, to see what was controlled by Serbs, what was controlled

 4     by Muslims.  And this line roughly coincides with the separation line in

 5     the zone of Sarajevo.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You're right, as far as movements of population are concerned,

 9     but these are genuinely Serb or Muslim neighbourhoods according to the

10     1991 census, because the 1991 census was challenged, it was never

11     verified by the Assembly, it is considered that it was falsified,

12     et cetera.

13             Can we get 1D1083.  For your information, Your Honours, this is

14     the same map as the previous one, but now it's broken down by

15     municipalities, and we are adding municipalities one by one.

16             Do you agree that what is added here is the Hadzici municipality?

17        A.   Yes, I believe that it is the correct location, if -- when trying

18     to see more clearly the various maps.

19        Q.   Do you agree -- do you agree that the Serbs controlled just a

20     small part of Hadzici, namely, the Serb part of Hadzici, whereas the

21     overwhelming majority of Hadzici were Muslim, including Tarcin and

22     another area, and Serbs did not control that?

23        A.   Well, there again, the confrontation line is the black line in

24     bold north-west or south-east, which is on the eastern side of the yellow

25     parts.  That's what you're talking about.  So this is the part that's

Page 4371

 1     held by the Serbian forces, and this would be the blue parts with a few

 2     yellow spots.  I'm trying to understand or make sense of this map as I

 3     speak.  It's on the left-hand side of the map, what I was talking about.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I forgot to mention the blue

 5     areas are Serb, ochre is Croats, and the green are Muslims.

 6             Can we get now 1D1084.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you agree that we now see the Trnovo municipality added?  It's

 9     to the far south of the Sarajevo district.

10        A.   Yes, the various pieces of the puzzles fit in together, and I

11     believe that we will have soon come to the end of the puzzle.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the front-line, which covers mainly

13     Serbian parts, and some Serb areas are controlled by Muslims, and some

14     Muslim parts are controlled by Serbs, but that the bulk of the Serb

15     neighbourhoods is under Serbian control?

16        A.   Provided that this document is accurate, because you said that

17     some people had said, when it was published, that it had been falsified.

18        Q.   I have to correct you, sorry.  It's the 1991 census that was

19     challenged, it was disputable, and it was never verified by the

20     Parliament.  However, this census was not in question.  This was done by

21     the previous Yugoslav authorities.

22             Can we get now 1D1085.

23             Do you agree that we now see Ilidza municipality, and in that

24     municipality Serbs controlled Serb neighbourhoods, whereas the Muslims

25     controlled Hrasnica, Sokolovic, and Butmir?

Page 4372

 1        A.   Yes, if we take on board your correction that you made and the

 2     mistake that you had made between 1981 and 1991.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  But can we get 1D1086.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Now we get Nova Sarajevo municipality, which was the majority,

 6     and together with the Yugoslavs they had absolute majority.  Do you see

 7     the Serbs control the Serb part of the territory, and what they don't

 8     control are Pofalici, which fell in May 1992 already?  Do you see that

 9     there are no Muslim areas under Serb control?

10        A.   I can see that there's some blue.  I can see that there's no

11     yellow.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             May we now have 1D1087, please.  We'll probably be seeing

14     Stari Grad now.  That's right, Stari Grad.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And there the population is mostly Muslim, and most of

17     Stari Grad, the Old Town, is under Muslim control or, rather, within the

18     separation line on the Muslim side; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             May we now have 1D1088 next, please.  This is the center?  No, it

22     isn't, no, or maybe.  Just a moment.  Let me check.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now we see that same situation, the same picture, where all the

25     pieces of the puzzle have been put together.  Now, Witness, do you accept

Page 4373

 1     that the Serb population living here in this area, in the blue zones, has

 2     always lived there, and that it is the oldest population in that area of

 3     Sarajevo?

 4             And let me tell you why I'm asking you that; because it was

 5     portrayed as if we had come in from somewhere and set up the siege of

 6     Sarajevo.  That's the impression that has been gained through the media

 7     and through the various trials here.  But this is the autochthonous

 8     population which has lived there since time immemorial.  It's their land,

 9     and it was never otherwise.  Do you accept that?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  The question calls for speculation, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's see whether Mr. Witness can answer the

14     question or whether he's aware of the situation without relying on his

15     speculation.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have two comments to make,

17     Your Honour.  The first one is the following:  The accused uses a

18     document with an authenticity that has not been ascertained.  And the

19     second comment is that I'm no historian.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And can you confirm it?  Well, you've already confirmed it, that

23     the soldiers who were in the Army of Republika Srpska lived there, the

24     ordinary people who went about their business and then went up to the

25     front-line when needed; right?

Page 4374

 1        A.   Well, let's talk about the ethnic make-up of Sarajevo.

 2             From what I could see, Sarajevo was typical for having a mix of

 3     populations, and within the city, even during the siege, there was a very

 4     strong Serbian minority.  And at the time, we thought that it was about

 5     16.000 or 17.000 [as interpreted] Serbs out of 250.000 or 300.000

 6     inhabitants.  As for the Serb soldiers that I saw outside of the

 7     confrontation lines, so those that were taking part in the siege of

 8     Sarajevo, some were coming from Sarajevo, but they would certainly not go

 9     back there every day or every evening to sleep there or to carry out

10     their business as civilians.

11             I have to say that I spoke to some Serb soldiers who were

12     reservists, and they were born in Sarajevo, and they were very sorry that

13     they could not go back home.  I have not seen lots of them, but those

14     that I met told me that.

15             So this is what I wanted to say.

16        Q.   Thank you.  For your information, when you were there, there were

17     about 50.000 Serbs, and by the end of the war, 30.000 Serbs remained.

18     Now there are just a dozen -- 12.000 of them or 10.000.

19             But let's see this, Witness:  If these people living here --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, again.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, it's just about these comments for

22     the witness's information, which are unhelpful, waste time, and, in my

23     submission, inappropriate.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I can't agree more.  Mr. Karadzic, be cautious.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

Page 4375

 1        Q.   But do you accept that when you were there, there might have been

 2     50.000 Serbs in that part of Sarajevo controlled by the Muslims?

 3        A.   As I said earlier on, I had a more optimistic view of things.  I

 4     spoke of 60.000, 70.000 or so, but there might have been 50.000.

 5        Q.   Then I apologise, because the interpretation I received was that

 6     you said 16, not 60.  But that makes it roughly about the same figure.

 7     About 50.000, 60.000.  Yes, I agree.

 8             Now, tell me this Witness:  When the Serbs, in April 1992, set up

 9     these lines to protect their settlements, was it the Muslims under siege,

10     or was it the Serbs who were under siege by the Muslims, or was the third

11     variant correct whereby it was a divided city?

12        A.   If, as you said earlier on, we are speaking about the city,

13     itself, Sarajevo proper, as the Brits would say, the city itself, the

14     center of Sarajevo, the main center of Sarajevo, plus the modern part

15     close to the airport, they were besieged and they were surrounded.  And

16     so when you say that they were surrounding and there was no siege, it is

17     a subtle nuance which I must say I do not quite see.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see that the person compiling this map

19     considers Ilidza to be the narrower part of town, and a witness in

20     another trial here - she was a distinguished British journalist - said

21     that it was a town -- a city divided, not a city under siege?  And would

22     you agree with that, that it was a city divided, because we can see that

23     the separation lines and the confrontation lines enter all the pores of

24     the city, both the inner city and the surrounding parts?

25        A.   If, to your mind, you say that Pale was part of Sarajevo, then,

Page 4376

 1     of course, there is a division.  But I think that that is an extension of

 2     the notion of Sarajevo, which is going too far.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope you'll believe me that

 4     this is the district of Sarajevo, and the inner-city is divided, just

 5     like the outer city.

 6             But, anyway, thank you, and I would like to tender this document,

 7     all these eight slides, the whole set from 1081 to 1088.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Chairman, as Mr. Karadzic said

 9     earlier on, I think that we will need to correct what was written down in

10     the minutes, because there was an error made in the figures I quoted.  It

11     was 60, 6-0, 60.000, and 70.000 and not 16 and 17.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your comment.  The court reporters

13     will look into the matter.  Thank you very much.

14             I thought you were dealing with it as kind of submissions, but I

15     will benefit from hearing from Ms. Edgerton.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  I had noted it as well, Your Honour, but I --

17     unless it's something that I think is really necessary to bring to

18     Your Honour's attention, I generally deal with it when we look at the

19     draft transcript later on.  In any case, listening to the witness, I

20     noted "60 to 70.000" in French, as opposed to "16 to 17," which appeared

21     on the English language transcript.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No, I was asking you about your opinion as to the

23     admissibility of these maps, annotated by the accused.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  No, Your Honour, the witness had no comment on

25     them and was at pains to distance himself from them, saying he doubted

Page 4377

 1     the authenticity and, further, he's wasn't a historian.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  In particular, Mr. Karadzic, given that it was

 3     marked by yourself, so we are minded to admit them when you are giving

 4     testimony.  Otherwise, at this moment I don't think it's appropriate for

 5     us to admit them as exhibits.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But there will be witnesses who

 7     will authenticate them, I hope.  Right?

 8             Now may we have 1913 next, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now, Witness, we're going to see a map showing part of the

11     distribution of Muslim forces in the city, itself.  And a previous

12     witness confirmed that that was just one part, that there's more but this

13     is just one part.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, just with --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  It's a mistake.  I

16     apologise.  1D1293 is the correct number.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  And with respect to page 38, lines 5, 6 and 7, I

18     don't know that that's evidence before the Court at all, Your Honour.

19     I'd like to see where that might have taken place.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have 1D1293, and we showed that

22     to one of the first witnesses who testified, and they said -- well, we'll

23     deal with that later, but let's have another document up on the ELMO now.

24     Or, rather, this is on e-court.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that is another comment.  What other

Page 4378

 1     witnesses testify, in what direction, has no bearing upon the evidence of

 2     the current witness, so please refrain from making comments.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 4             Let's put this document on the overhead projector.  It doesn't

 5     have to be admitted today, but I'd just like to ask for the witness's

 6     assistance by asking him whether he knows whether the

 7     102nd Motorised Brigade was in Sarajevo.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but I suppose you'll show it to

 9     me.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   That's north of Nedzarici, north of Dobrinja, and this is their

12     document and shows the deployment of the 102nd Motorised Brigade.

13             May I ask you to take a look at what it says above, the

14     "Oslobodjenje" building.  You mentioned that building as being one of the

15     ones destroyed.  Let me just tell everybody here that the "Oslobodjenje"

16     building was the building belonging to the daily newspaper called

17     "Oslobodjenje."

18             Do you see that?  There's a triangle there, number 3, and there's

19     a semicircle there too.  Have you found it?  Right in the middle, it says

20     "Nedzarici, Vojnicko Polje," and then there's an arrow, and then there's

21     a sort of triangular flag for the battalion command.

22        A.   Starting from Novi Grad -- we can start from Novi Grad.  It will

23     be simpler then to see.

24        Q.   Do you see the building where it says "Oslobodjenje"?

25        A.   No, I don't see it, not for the moment.

Page 4379

 1        Q.   Do you see that triangular flag with the number 3 on it, which

 2     was the headquarters of the 3rd Battalion, right in the middle of this

 3     picture?  It says "3 mth"?

 4        A.   "3," yes.

 5        Q.   Now, do you see that towards the bottom of that flag, it says

 6     "Oslobodjenje"?

 7        A.   Yes, now I can see it better on the map and not on what appears

 8     on the ELMO.

 9        Q.   Do you agree, Witness, that this building, the "Oslobodjenje"

10     building, had -- is where the Staff of the 3rd Battalion and the

11     102nd Motorised Brigade was, with a rocket-launcher there, because this

12     arrow with the semicircle denotes that kind of weapon, a rocket-launcher?

13        A.   I have two comments to make here.

14             On the one hand, and I already said so, this type of arms, such

15     as rocket-launchers, were not kept in the same place.

16             Secondly, I lived for six months and I was living just across the

17     road from "Oslobodjenje," and I went there on several occasions.  I never

18     saw any Bosnian military.  That is all I have to say.

19        Q.   And do you know that almost 80 per cent of the Bosnian soldiers

20     were without uniforms, they were wearing civilian clothes?  And that's

21     according to their information.  Are you aware of that?

22        A.   Yes.  Well, most of them liked to wear certain insignia,

23     especially the chiefs.

24             And, on the other hand, to come back to "Oslobodjenje," the

25     shelling of "Oslobodjenje" happened at a very early stage of the

Page 4380

 1     conflict, so I don't know whether at that time there was already a staff

 2     of the brigade.

 3        Q.   And if I tell you that Nedzarici, and you know of

 4     Nedzarici - they're small buildings, just three floors - that they were

 5     shot at from the "Oslobodjenje" building, they were heavily fired at?

 6     Would you accept that?  So from Vojnicko Polje, but particularly from the

 7     "Oslobodjenje" building, they came under very heavy fire?

 8        A.   Yes, it is possible.  We were close to the confrontation line.  I

 9     know the place you're referring to, since I personally was kept for three

10     hours in one of these small houses by one of your so-called people who

11     were military who were responsible.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that all these points, on the assumption

13     that they've been correctly introduced onto this map, that they're all

14     legitimate targets?

15        A.   What do you call a legitimate target?

16        Q.   Legitimate military targets.  Each of these points along the

17     separation line, they're trenches, the positions of their staffs and

18     headquarters, logistics, cannon positions, rocket positions.  Are those

19     all legitimate targets, as far as their adversaries are concerned?

20        A.   When you declare a target as being a military target, it can be

21     subjected to a military action on the part of the person who's interested

22     in such a target.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             May we lower the image to see "BRAG 102," the brigade artillery

25     group of the 102nd Brigade with 18 artillery pieces, mortars and

Page 4381

 1     anti-aircraft, machine-guns, and Howitzers, so to the east where it says

 2     "Kovac."  Brijesce Brdo, Brijesce Hill, do you see a strong concentration

 3     there?  It's at an elevation of about 700 metres, dominating over the

 4     whole area with artillery pieces belonging to the Muslim army.

 5        A.   For the moment, I don't see anything.  So could you please be

 6     more precise?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Before we proceed further, who drew this map,

 8     Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a map.  It's in the Latin

10     script, a map belonging to the Muslim army, the 102nd Brigade.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I question the provenance of the map.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's why I'm asking.

14             What you said is "a map belonging to the Muslim army."  I don't

15     follow, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a map showing the

17     deployment of the 102nd Brigade of the Muslim army.  And from all the

18     documents, we know that that was what it was like, but this is their map,

19     the one they use to follow their own activities.  But in the documents,

20     we shall see that all this is correct, and that that's where they're

21     shooting from, and that that was the deployment of their forces.  And it

22     was common knowledge where the brigade was located, and the

23     United Nations ought to know this because it was their job to know who

24     was where.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So is it your position that you do not know who drew

Page 4382

 1     this map or marked this map?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Either the command or his deputy.

 3     But we received it, we obtained it -- well, it was seized in an action

 4     against the Muslims, the 102nd Brigade.  We seized the map.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's proceed.  What is your question?

 6     The witness was not able to identify the location you referred to.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Well, right up at the top, underneath the first three letters,

 9     "BOR," the "BOR" heading up at the top, you have a triangle with

10     Howitzers, mortars.  So underneath the title, "BOR," that's where you'll

11     find the triangle, which is the artillery brigade group of the

12     102nd Brigade.

13        A.   I see it.

14        Q.   Is that a legitimate target, in your opinion, then?

15        A.   Mr. Chairman, I have two comments I would like to make.

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             Then, on the other hand, I see that he is not quite consistent.

23     On the one hand, he says that this is an authentic map, it is in Latin

24     characters, so it can only come from the Bosnian Army, but for the three

25     days I've been here, most of the documents and maps I've seen from the

Page 4383

 1     Serb Army -- Serbian Army were also in Latin characters, so I'm a bit at

 2     a loss.

 3        Q.   But on the maps, themselves, the Serb commanders would write

 4     things on the maps in Cyrillic.  Did you notice that?  Right?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             If you are concerned about the lines 10 to 15, that will be taken

 7     care of.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let me ask you a question, Witness.  The commands of the

11     adversary units, the command posts, are they legitimate targets?  We can

12     go through this very quickly if you give us yes-or-no answers.

13        A.   The command posts or the places where command posts are, that is,

14     of course, a military target, but the Rules of War mean that normally we

15     have to try and avoid collateral damage, as it is called.

16        Q.   Well, that's the answer to the second question.  The first

17     question is about logistics bases.  Are they legitimate targets?

18        A.   A military logistic base is, yes.

19        Q.   So can I take them all together and say -- and ask whether the

20     logistics centres, for example, the communications centres, all military

21     installations, are they all legitimate military targets?

22        A.   As soon as it is military, it will be a military target.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And what about all the points along this separation

24     line; are all those legitimate targets, all the trenches or parts of the

25     trenches, et cetera?  Are they all legitimate targets?

Page 4384

 1        A.   Trenches are organisations for defence purposes.  Obviously, they

 2     will be military targets.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             May we now have 1D1293 displayed, please.  And it's a map.  Just

 5     look at it briefly, and we've already displayed it.

 6             And we've just got a few more documents if I'm not given more

 7     time, but it's a great pity.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have 15 minutes to conclude your

 9     cross-examination.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             1D1293, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, do you believe that this is only a part of the

14     legitimate targets, or, rather, military facilities in this part of the

15     city?  The 10th and 9th Mountain Brigades were not taken into account

16     here, so do you know that in depth, behind the lines, right in the --

17     deep into the town, (redacted)

18    (redacted)

19        A.   It is possible that there were military installations all over

20     the city.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, line 11.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             That map, as displayed, Your Honour, in my submission, is

24     assuming facts not in evidence yet.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

Page 4385

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             I'd like to tender this map.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm not quite -- speaking for myself,

 4     I'm not quite satisfied the witness has offered a foundation for this

 5     map, annotated map, to be admitted.  What the witness said, it's possible

 6     there were military installations all over the city, and you'll have

 7     another opportunity to --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, very well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something.

11             I have even further doubts, since I see that there's no military

12     installation noted along the front-line on the northern part of the city.

13     So I think it might be a slightly biased presentation.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Before I return this map to the Defence, the Prosecution is

16     minded to take a look at it.

17             Yes, please, Mr. Karadzic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, I said, and this was confirmed by an international

20     witness, that this is only a part of the installations, and one day we'll

21     be offering up a complete map of all the military targets both along the

22     front-line and in depth.  So this is only some of them.

23             JUDGE KWON:  This is yet again unnecessary comment on you, and

24     you cannot complain about the shortage of time.  You have 10 minutes,

25     Mr. Karadzic.

Page 4386

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Witness, while we are still looking at this map, let me ask you

 3     this -- or, rather, the other map would be better.  But do you agree that

 4     to the north of Sarajevo, we had the 2nd Corps of the BH Army, in the

 5     west the 3rd Zenica Corps, and to the south the 4th Mostar Corps of the

 6     BH Army?

 7        A.   I no longer remember which corps was at stake because I was not

 8     concerned about that.  I was only interested in the elements of the

 9     1st Corps, which was stationed inside the city of Sarajevo, itself.

10        Q.   Well, do you find it acceptable that at the beginning of the war,

11     the separation line in town was 42 kilometres' long and that towards the

12     end of the war the 1st Corps expanded to cover 64 kilometres?  And that

13     comes from their sources, that at the beginning there was 42 kilometres

14     and at the end of the war 64 kilometres of line, front-line.

15        A.   I was not at Sarajevo at the end of the war, so I cannot know

16     what happened at that point in time.  But the 40-odd kilometres to which

17     you refer which were there when I was present, that seems plausible.

18     I think that was also the figure I remember.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             May we now have 1D479, but for that we'll have to go into private

21     session.

22             Is it the closed session, private session?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 4387











11  Pages 4387-4393 redacted. Private session.















Page 4394

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Now we are in open session.

19             Thank you.  I take it you've concluded your cross-examination.

20             We'll not admit this document, for the same reasons.

21             Ms. Edgerton, before you begin your redirect examination,

22     Judge Baird has a question for the witness.

23             JUDGE BAIRD:  Witness, there is a matter on which I would like

24     some clarification, but I think we should go into closed session for

25     that, Mr. Registrar.

Page 4395

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Private session, yes.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  Private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4396

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

16        Q.   Witness, I don't have too many things to ask you relating to the

17     evidence you've previously given, but I'll begin.

18             First of all, the day before yesterday you said, at page 4237,

19     lines 15 to 17:

20             "Vrbanja Bridge was the location where a French position of

21     UNPROFOR was attacked by Serb troops that were wearing UN uniforms, and

22     so this is what happened there."

23             Do you recall saying this?

24        A.   Yes, indeed.  I was pointing to a time when I wasn't there, but

25     I'm sure that another witness will be in a better position to talk about

Page 4397

 1     it.

 2        Q.   And what period was that; do you recall?

 3        A.   Well, we're talking about 1995, what was preceded or what was

 4     simultaneous to our hostage-taking done by the Serbian Army against the

 5     UNPROFOR troops or staff.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  On what, Mr. Karadzic?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is speaking about

 9     things where he was not present, and I have no chance to test that.  If

10     another witness will testify to that, then there is no need to discuss it

11     with this witness.  I was not able to get an answer even about things

12     where he was personally present, let alone things that he did not attend

13     himself.

14             JUDGE KWON:  You can move on to another topic, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Now, Witness, do you recall, from yesterday's proceedings, a

17     discussion at pages 4255, lines 18 to 25, and onward to page 4260, about

18     a Sarajevo Romanija Corps daily combat report, dated 31 May 1995, from

19     which you were read a passage at page 4255, lines 22 to 24, by

20     Dr. Karadzic?  And I'll read you the passage.  It said:

21             "At 1015 hours, the enemy fired a 155-millimetre shell from Igman

22     on the direction of Krivoglavci and Reljevo sectors."

23             Do you remember that?

24        A.   Yes, I asked for the sectors to be showed on the map to me, and

25     this did not happen.

Page 4398

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Then could I ask, please, if we have P1052, which

 2     you viewed earlier in your testimony, brought up on the screen, please.

 3     I'd like to show you a map.

 4             We could have full-screen display.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Do you recall viewing this map, Witness, that appears on the

 6     screen, earlier in your testimony?

 7        A.   Yes, and I believe that it's on this map that I marked the

 8     artillery positions of the Serbian Army, the ones that I had witnessed.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps now we can go from there to 65 ter 11789,

10     which is a cut-out and enlargement from this very map.  Pardon me,

11     11789G.  Yes, thank you very much.

12        Q.   Do you see an enlarged image on the map in front of you, Witness?

13        A.   Yes.  It's on the western side of Vogosca.

14        Q.   And could I direct your attention to the upside-down Y shape in

15     the road just to the left of where you see the name "Vogosca," do you see

16     the place name Krivoglavci marked there?

17        A.   Yes, I can see that.

18        Q.   And if you go slightly further down the map, beside the blue

19     letters "Bosna," just directly underneath the place Krivoglavci, do you

20     see the place marked "Reljevo" marked to the left?

21        A.   Yes, indeed, I can see that.

22        Q.   Now, do these markings on this map at the location most closest

23     to Krivoglavci signify anything to you?

24        A.   Markings?  Oh, I see, right.  As Mr. Karadzic showed it, these

25     are on artillery location -- it's above Krivoglavci, isn't it?

Page 4399

 1        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Now, yesterday, without having seen this map,

 2     you were asked, at page 4257, lines 15 to 17:

 3             "If I tell you the fire from Mount Igman is directed exclusively

 4     at the north, towards Serb neighbourhoods of Sarajevo, does that sound

 5     plausible to you?"

 6             And you agreed:  "Without a doubt."

 7             Do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes, because I had no reference on the map.  But now that you are

 9     showing me those markings, and if they correspond to what has been said

10     yesterday by Mr. Karadzic, we can see that they were not directed at

11     Serbian neighbourhoods, but they were perhaps Serbian artillery positions

12     that were the targets.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you very much.

14             With those comments, I wonder if this cut-out from P1052 could be

15     entered as an associated exhibit to P1052.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Cut-out and zoomed in?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  It is, indeed.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it as a separate exhibit.  I will

19     consult the Court Deputy as to the practice.

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it separately.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1078, Your Honours.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  And I have just one more question.  But as it was

24     dealt with yesterday -- or the area that I wish to explore was dealt with

25     yesterday in private session, could we move into private session, please?

Page 4400

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4401

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in open session, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  That concludes the re-examination.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much, Mr. Witness.  That concludes

 8     your evidence.  Thank you again for your coming to the Tribunal to give

 9     it.  Now you are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE KWON:  There are certain matters I was advised on your part

13     to raise, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Just very briefly, Your Honour.  It's about the

15     status of a number of the associated exhibits to the statements which

16     were admitted under seal, and I wonder if I can just go through the

17     status of those exhibits by 65 ter number, if I may.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  And it's -- what I wish to do is request that

20     65 ter 09578, which is an associated exhibit provisionally --

21             JUDGE KWON:  The letter, yes.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  -- entered as P1054, be under seal.  And I'll just

23     list the numbers, if I may.  P1055, the same, P1059, P1060, P1061, P1062,

24     P1065, and P1066.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We note your request.  Since I have no P numbers

Page 4402

 1     with me at this moment, we'll come back to you if there's any problems.

 2             Also, I'll hear from the accused, if you have any problem with

 3     taking those things under seal.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, if the motivation for putting

 5     them under seal was that they were under seal in the original case when

 6     they were admitted, then we would probably have no objection to that.

 7     But otherwise, absent any link between the testimony in open session and

 8     these particular documents, we don't see why they need to be under seal

 9     simply by the fact of their existence or link with the witness, if that

10     link was never dealt with in open session.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider the matter over the break.

12             And there are two other administrative matters we can deal with

13     at this moment.  It's about Mr. Philipps, the associated documents.

14             The 29th of June, the Prosecution requested leave to reply to the

15     accused's response regarding the documents submitted through

16     Mr. Philipps.  Because the Chamber believes that a reply will assist the

17     Chamber in deciding the motion and is satisfied that it would be in the

18     interest of justice, so we hereby grant leave for the Prosecution to do

19     so.

20             And, finally, the 28th of June, Mr. Karadzic requested the

21     assistance of a Defence expert, Mr. Subotic, in the courtroom during the

22     testimony of Mr. Suljevic.  The Prosecution did not oppose this request.

23     In light of the anticipated technical nature of Mr. Suljevic's testimony,

24     we will permit the presence of Dr. Subotic in the courtroom during that

25     testimony.

Page 4403

 1             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, I missed one administrative matter.

 3     I'm reminded of it, Your Honour.

 4             The day before yesterday, at pages 4204 to 4205, we used 65 ter

 5     13637 with the witness, and it's a blow-up and translation of part of

 6     P1021, and I've been recommended to ask that that be attached to 13637 --

 7     sorry, that it be attached to 1021 as a translation of the exhibit.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Excuse me, Mr. President.  We have one small

11     administrative matter also.

12             We are finally able to report that one of the MFI documents, MFI

13     D195, has been translated.  The translation has been attached and

14     up-loaded into e-court, and we would ask that that now be admitted as a

15     full exhibit.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll consider the matter and then issue a ruling in

17     due course.  Thank you.

18             We'll have a break for 25 minutes.

19                           --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21                           --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Good evening, Mr. Mandic.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I greet you, Your Honours, and

24     greet the Prosecutor and Mr. Karadzic.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 4404

 1             I was advised that you have something to address the Chamber

 2     before you begin your testimony, Mr. Mandic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your permission,

 4     I would like to address the Court with a few words.

 5             I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to allow me to be a witness

 6     of the Court and not of the Prosecution, and that is what I explained and

 7     requested in a letter.  I think that you can issue subpoenas for those

 8     who do not wish to testify, which is not my case.  I do wish to testify

 9     before this honourable and august Chamber to tell you everything I

10     knew -- I know, because of the truth and justice.  But I don't wish to

11     say these things as a Prosecution witness, who imposed this status on me,

12     regardless of my will.  And they threatened me, the associates of

13     Mr. Tieger.  They told me that if I didn't come in to testify, I would be

14     incarcerated.

15             Now, why do I not want to be a Prosecution witness?  Because in

16     2003 I was suspected of aiding and abetting and hiding Dr. Karadzic.  I

17     spent five months because of that in a solitary confinement cell in

18     Belgrade, and none of my family members could visit me.  And The Hague

19     investigators came to see me.  The Prosecutor's investigator, that is,

20     were allowed to come and see me.  They asked me about the whereabouts of

21     Mr. Karadzic, his health, and everything else that they were interested

22     in knowing about him.

23             Now, on several occasions, I was told that if I failed to

24     co-operate and failed to tell them where Dr. Karadzic was, that I would

25     be an accused before this Court and that I would be accused and found

Page 4405

 1     guilty by a Serbian Court.

 2             However, five months later, I was released without any criminal

 3     proceedings being taken against me.  And until the present day, the state

 4     of Serbia has not apologised to me for keeping me in prison.

 5             After that, I was kidnapped, as a citizen of Montenegro, and

 6     transferred in the space of two hours to a prison in Sarajevo, without

 7     any extradition proceedings or anything else.  And in the prison there

 8     and in the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the evening hours I was taken

 9     out and was interrogated by the operatives and investigators of The Hague

10     Tribunal, or, rather, the OTP, or the security services who were down

11     there in Sarajevo, and mostly they asked me, once again, about

12     Dr. Karadzic, his whereabouts, his movements, his state of health, and so

13     on and so forth.  Of course, I wasn't able to assist the OTP by telling

14     them anything, because from 1996 I have had nothing to do with

15     Dr. Karadzic.  I wasn't in contact with him at all.  I tried to present

16     my arguments and to explain this to them, but they just didn't want to

17     listen.

18             And then these operatives, the investigators, told me that I

19     would be taken to court in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the prosecutor of

20     the BH Court would raise an indictment against me, and that I would be

21     sentenced to a prison term of eight years.  When I said that they had no

22     grounds for filing a lawsuit against me, they said that they would find

23     grounds and that that wasn't important.

24             So everything that -- during that evening, when they interviewed

25     me, everything those operatives told me would happen did happen.  I was

Page 4406

 1     prosecuted because of the commercial bank in Srpsko Sarajevo, which is

 2     owned by me, that I provided credits and loans to firms and companies

 3     which assisted Dr. Karadzic.  And I was found guilty and given a prison

 4     term of eight years.  I served five years.

 5             And I was accused of aiding one of the suspects of The Hague

 6     Tribunal, the accused, actually, Radovan Karadzic.  And after I was

 7     acquitted after 2003, I was placed on a blacklist and prohibited from

 8     entering into the European Union countries and the United States because

 9     I was suspected of assisting Dr. Karadzic and financing him and hiding

10     him.  Although that decision was taken in 2007, I am still on that list,

11     on that blacklist, and at all the airports of the European Union, the

12     Montenegrin-Serbian border, Croatian border, and so on, I am always taken

13     into custody by the police, I am interrogated by them, and then I'm sent

14     back.  If I'm going to Bosnia -- from Bosnia, I'm sent back to Bosnia,

15     and so on.

16             And that was the situation quite recently when I testified in the

17     Stanisic trial.  I spent one and a half hours in Vienna, in the Office

18     for Immigrants, or whatever it's called, and I was interrogated there.

19             Yesterday, they kept me back at the airport for one hour, at the

20     Amsterdam Airport, although there was a subpoena from this honourable

21     Tribunal and a safe passage permit.  The driver waited for me, he

22     explained the situation, but that's what happened.

23             So I considered -- well, let alone the fact that my two sons were

24     held in custody.  And John Ruttel, one of the investigators, said to my

25     son that he would be released if I were to come to Sarajevo, so that's

Page 4407

 1     what happened to me.

 2             Of course, when I served tow-thirds of my sentence in prison and

 3     left prison, it was established that I was found guilty of a crime that

 4     didn't exist and that it was all bureaucracy and false testimony on the

 5     part of false witnesses.  And as an American citizen who had immunity,

 6     this person went to Texas, to Dallas, Texas, and she even took some money

 7     from my bank.  I was helpless, faced with a situation of that kind.

 8             And Dr. Karadzic has been in a Scheveningen prison for two or

 9     three years.  I had no contact with him whatsoever, but I remain somebody

10     who was prosecuted and found guilty and held in prison for seven or eight

11     years, and my family suffered.  And now, as such, I am supposed to come

12     here and be here as a Prosecution witness, whereas the Prosecution

13     thought that I was harbouring him and assisting him.  I think that that

14     is not commensurate with man's dignity, and I would like to request that

15     the Trial Chamber allow me to be a Court witness.  But I will accept your

16     ruling and decision.  And I say this -- I set this out in my letter,

17     because I really do not wish to be a Prosecution witness.  However, if

18     you order that to be the case, then I will comply.

19             Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, you raised several issues, but I will

21     address only those which relate to the Tribunal's business; i.e., your

22     testimony.

23             Anybody, any citizen in the world, is obliged to give evidence

24     once subpoenaed.  So as a matter of law, you are obligated to give

25     evidence as subpoenaed.  But it is a separate matter for the Chamber to

Page 4408

 1     allow you to give evidence as a Chamber witness, as a witness of the

 2     Court, as you put it.

 3             Having said that, I'd like to hear from the parties, what

 4     position they take in relation to allow the witness to give evidence as a

 5     Chamber witness.

 6             Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Well, I believe, in this instance, we're talking about a

 9     distinction without a difference.  I think the witness has made it

10     abundantly clear that he's not here as a, quote/unquote, "Prosecution

11     witness," whatever he believes that to mean.  He's here to give evidence.

12     He happens to be called -- or he happens to have been called during this

13     phase of the case, but he made it clear he wishes not to be identified

14     with the Prosecution, he wishes to give evidence to the Court.  That's

15     been made clear; one way or another, he would be here.

16             So whatever designation we choose to give Mr. Mandic in this

17     instance, his position would not change.  It would be clear to everyone.

18     And I think the procedural approach would remain the same.  I think we

19     are -- everyone would expect the questioning to be elicited first from

20     the Prosecution and then from the Defence.

21             So it appears to me that the point that Mr. Mandic wished to make

22     has been made, and I'm not sure what further measures would be necessary

23     in this instance.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we had a similar -- actually, an

Page 4409

 1     identical request from Lord Owen in the pre-trial stage of this case, and

 2     he requested to be called as a Chamber witness.  And the ruling was that

 3     he could be called as a Prosecution witness simply because the

 4     Prosecution goes first.  In that instance, we said we would have called

 5     Lord Owen if the Prosecution didn't.

 6             In this instance, definitely we would have called Mr. Mandic if

 7     the Prosecution didn't, so it's only because the Prosecution goes first

 8     that he's here as a Prosecution witness.  And I think with that

 9     understanding, we all just expect him to tell the truth, no matter what

10     the designation, and hope that he'll do that.

11             Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, you should be aware of the

13     consequence -- the legal consequence if he's allowed to testify as a

14     Chamber witness.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  As far as I understand the legal consequence, in

16     terms of the procedure, would be that essentially the Chamber would

17     either ask him to give his evidence in response to Chamber questions or

18     in response to his own statement, and then the parties would be examining

19     him after that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And entitled to cross-examine the witness.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  And we --

22             JUDGE KWON:  May be allowed to put leading questions.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I understand the Prosecutor could possibly

24     put leading questions to him at that point.  But that's up to the

25     Chamber, how you like to control your proceedings.  As far as we're

Page 4410

 1     concerned, he's here because the Prosecution goes first, and so we think

 2     that that procedure is satisfactory to us.  But if you prefer to have him

 3     testify in another procedure, we don't mind that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Well, since there seems to be some consideration

 7     given to that, I would simply note the Court does have available

 8     Mr. Mandic's previous testimony, and is aware of his appearance in

 9     Stanisic/Zupljanin as well, so that probably gives the Court a little

10     more information about how it might wish to proceed and what procedural

11     steps it could implement if it chose to adopt one of the options.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, we have heard your request, that you be

14     considered to be a witness of the --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a request, just a request,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  You request that you be considered to be a

18     witness of the Court, rather than of the Prosecution, and in this regard

19     I would like to note the following:

20             In the system which operates at this Tribunal, witnesses are

21     called by the Prosecution and the Defence to give evidence.  The evidence

22     that is given by such witnesses is, however, evidence provided to the

23     Chamber and for consideration and analysis by the Chamber in reaching its

24     conclusions concerning the charges against the accused.  In this respect,

25     evidence is evidence, and it is of no consequence which party brought the

Page 4411

 1     particular witness to give it.

 2             However, as a matter of procedure, it is the party who calls a

 3     witness who normally first asks questions in what we call

 4     examination-in-chief.  Then the opposing party cross-examines the

 5     witness.  The Chamber can choose at any point to put its own questions to

 6     the witness, but in general the questioning is performed by the

 7     Prosecution and the Defence.

 8             Under our Rules, a Chamber may also order the parties to produce

 9     evidence and may, itself, call witnesses to give testimony.

10             We are happy to hear that you are prepared to -- well, in your

11     situation, at the request of the Prosecution, the Chamber issued a

12     subpoena directing you to appear today to begin your testimony, and we

13     are grateful to hear that you are prepared to do so.  However, noting

14     your concern not to be considered as a witness for the Prosecution, and

15     the comments that I have just made, we are prepared to consider you as a

16     witness of the Court.  However, in the interests of the best presentation

17     of your evidence, you will be questioned first by the Prosecution and

18     then by the accused, Mr. Karadzic, and I would ask you, that you answer

19     all of those questions to the best of your ability.  The Chamber may also

20     intervene from time to time to ask questions of you.

21             But that said, I would like you first to take the solemn

22     declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I stand?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 4412

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a seat.

 5             One further administrative matter, Mr. Tieger.

 6             This witness was supposed to give his evidence partially pursuant

 7     to Rule 92 ter.  Are you happy to go live with this witness or do you

 8     like me to check with the witness he would stick by his previous

 9     testimony in Krajisnik?

10             MR. TIEGER:  No, we intend to present his evidence, in part,

11     through 92 ter.  And I would note, as the Court will hear momentarily,

12     that that is precisely what happened just about a month ago in the

13     Stanisic/Zupljanin case.  So I think that would be an appropriate way to

14     proceed, the most efficient way, and then we can -- there will be a great

15     deal of live evidence in addition, but I think that certainly the manner

16     we intended to proceed, it was a manner in which the case proceeded

17     earlier, and I think it's a most efficient manner.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, sometime in 2004, during November and

19     December, you gave testimony -- you testified in the case Prosecutor

20     versus Mr. Krajisnik?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Did you have the opportunity to go through the

23     transcript of your evidence in that case?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did that before I testified in

25     the Stanisic and Zupljanin trial.

Page 4413

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Can you confirm with me that that transcript

 2     accurately reflects your statement, and if asked again, you would say the

 3     same answers?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I do confirm

 5     that.  I confirm everything that I said in the Momcilo Krajisnik trial,

 6     with the changes that I made, and told Prosecutor Korner and was

 7     introduced in those proceedings during the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial,

 8     those amendments.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Has this Chamber been provided with those

10     corrections, Mr. Tieger?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I was going to adduce those orally.

12     I can do so now, if the Court would wish, or I can direct the Court to

13     the appropriate transcript pages.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So with the consent of the Defence, I will leave it

15     to you to go through the corrections later on when you examine the

16     witness.

17             MR. TIEGER:  I'd be happy to do that, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I never did this practice.  Do I need to ask further

19     questions?  I think we did all the requirements of Rule 92 ter.  And then

20     on that basis, we'll admit his transcript as a Chamber exhibit.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 22487 will be Exhibit C2.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Mr. Tieger or Mr. Hayden.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  It's your witness.

Page 4414

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Tieger:

 3        Q.   Good evening, Mr. Mandic.  Let's --

 4        A.   Good evening, Mr. Tieger.

 5        Q.   Perhaps it's best to begin by focusing on the corrections you

 6     made in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case to your testimony in the Krajisnik

 7     case.  And I believe there were three of them.

 8             The first, which appears at page 9401 of the Stanisic/Zupljanin

 9     transcript, was in connection with a document you reviewed concerning the

10     number of Muslim civilians who passed through the facility at Kula, and

11     the testimony was that the documents -- the questioning in the Krajisnik

12     case was at page 8742.  The testimony was:

13             "According to rough estimates, about 10.000 Muslim civilians of

14     all ages passed through this facility during the war, spending between

15     several days and a few months in this facility."

16             That's what the document said.  Your answer was:

17             "It was two years after I left for Belgrade, and it was the

18     president of the Central Commission for Exchanges of POWs,

19     Ljubisa Vladusic."

20             And then you essentially indicated that you didn't challenge the

21     document.  And then you wanted to make a correction to the civilians who

22     were referenced in that document, the 10.000 Muslim civilians of all ages

23     who passed through the facility.  So if you want to make that correction

24     now, I invite you to do so.

25        A.   Mr. Tieger, this is correct.  During the testimony in the

Page 4415

 1     Krajisnik trial, I was shown a letter from Mr. Bulajic, who was president

 2     of the Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners, and

 3     Mr. Vladusic, Ljubisa Vladusic, who was the head of the Office for

 4     Refugees or Committee for Refugees, or whatever it was called.  Now, in

 5     that letter they stated - and it was sent to the government - that during

 6     the war, through the buildings, or, rather, the premises of the

 7     Butmir Correction Centre in Eastern Sarajevo, that about 10.000 non-Serbs

 8     passed through.  That is to say, that referred to prisoners of war and

 9     civilians and people who were taken away from the areas engulfed by war,

10     and all those who spent from two to three days to several months there.

11     And I said, during that testimony and during the testimony during the

12     Stanisic/Zupljanin trial, that there was no reason for me not to believe

13     those figures and that there was a great deal of fluctuation in that

14     particular location because it was at the separation line between the

15     area held by the Muslim forces and Serb forces, and where the prisoners

16     were exchanged, whether POWs or civilians who were in various areas of

17     Republika Srpska and the federation, brought to that place and exchanged.

18     And it was according to the all-for-all principle, and it was near

19     Sarajevo Airport.  That's why I said that I had no doubt -- no reason to

20     doubt it, especially since after 1992 I didn't have any insight into the

21     fluctuation and migration of these people who, during 1991 and 1992, took

22     shelter in Dobrinja from the war, when there were conflicts between the

23     Serb and Muslim forces.

24             So in my view, those two statements are identical, the statement

25     made in the Krajisnik trial and in the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial.

Page 4416

 1        Q.   The second -- the second correction, Mr. Mandic, can be found at

 2     page 9405 of the Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony, and I believe you were

 3     correcting a portion of the Krajisnik transcript at pages 8945 through

 4     46, and you wanted to focus on the length of time that the MUP could keep

 5     people in detention.

 6             And the question at page 9405 from Ms. Korner was:

 7             "But, anyhow, you're saying, are you, that at no stage did the

 8     length of time which the MUP could keep people -- could keep people in

 9     detention for change [Realtime transcript read in error "exchange"] to

10     longer than three days?"

11             And your answer was:  "Correct."

12             So is it accurate that there was a discussion in the Krajisnik

13     case which indicated that the -- the possibility of a provision according

14     to which detention could last up to 31 days, and you corrected that by

15     saying that at no stage did the length of time which the MUP could keep

16     people for change to longer than three days?

17        A.   It's not correct, Mr. Tieger.  We weren't talking about people

18     who were supposed to be exchanged.  It was the pre-trial proceedings for

19     those who were suspected of having committed certain crimes, and their

20     detention according to the Law on Criminal Procedure, which was up to

21     three days, that is to say, 70 hours.  So we weren't talking about people

22     who were up for exchange, but suspects in regular procedures for

23     individual crimes.  And that law was enforced in the former Yugoslavia,

24     taken over by Republika Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina, because it was --

25     there was just one criminal code.

Page 4417

 1        Q.   I don't believe I mentioned the word "exchange," but rather

 2     "detention."  But in any event, Mr. Mandic, have you now accurately

 3     provided the information you wanted to about that issue?

 4        A.   I apologise, Mr. Tieger.  The interpretation I heard was "people

 5     kept for the exchange."  That's why I reacted.  It was probably down to

 6     the interpretation.  But what you just stated is correct.  Yes, people

 7     who could have been detained by the police in the pre-trial phase,

 8     according to the law governing criminal procedures, they could be

 9     detained for up to 72 hours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 76, line 18.  Page 76, line

12     18, contains the word "exchange," so it wasn't the interpretation.

13     That's what was said.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger said "detention for exchange."

15             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  Well, in any event --

16             JUDGE KWON:  It can be checked against the recording.

17             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine.  As long as the correction is clear,

18     I'm more than satisfied.

19        Q.   And finally, Mr. Mandic, the last correction I believe you made,

20     but I leave it to you to tell us if it's otherwise, is in relation to

21     testimony you gave which was at pages 8677 and 9314 through 15 about who

22     instructed you to send the 31 March 1992 dispatch regarding the split of

23     the MUP, that is, the split of the police.  And you explained in your

24     testimony, at pages 9405 through 9406 in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case:

25             "I wrote the dispatch.  It was logical for the minister of the

Page 4418

 1     interior to instruct me to do this, but he did not.  I was in charge of

 2     the Serbs in the MUP at the time and did not write this dispatch on

 3     anyone's behalf.  I received information from Velibor Ostojic that the

 4     law had been passed in accordance with the Cutileiro Plan, and I wrote

 5     this on my own initiative in accordance with my own conscience and

 6     professionalism and in co-operation with the professionals in my

 7     cabinet."

 8             Now, Mr. Mandic, there was further discussion about that during

 9     the course of the Stanisic/Zupljanin case, including at what point you

10     came to that decision about -- that it was a mistake, whether it was

11     before or after talking to the Defence, where Mico Stanisic was at the

12     time the dispatch was written, and so on.  So I leave it up to you to

13     tell the Court whether or not any further correction is required.  But

14     that seemed to be the point at which you made the correction in the

15     Stanisic/Zupljanin case, so I'd ask you to let the Court know if that is

16     the correction you wish to make and if there's any further elaboration

17     necessary.

18        A.   I will, for the benefit of the Court, explain this in a few

19     words.

20             As far as the writing of the dispatch is concerned, nobody gave

21     me instructions, as the assistant minister for the interior.  On 23rd

22     March, the "Official Gazette" published the Law on Internal Affairs.

23     Eight days later, it came into effect.  I was informed of that by

24     Velibor Ostojic, the minister of information.  And then I wrote that

25     dispatch, which is in keeping with that law and in keeping with the

Page 4419

 1     Constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Mr.

 2     Stanisic had, therefore, nothing to do with it.  And at that time, having

 3     forgotten all these details, which didn't mean much to me, I remembered

 4     that I contacted directly with the minister of the interior of the

 5     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  However, that's not the

 6     case.  Mr. Stanisic had nothing to do with it.

 7             The rest is as I testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Mandic, is it accurate, then, that those are the

 9     corrections and the only corrections you wish to make to your testimony

10     in the Krajisnik case?

11        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12        Q.   Okay.  Well, Mr. Mandic, perhaps we can begin, although --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, given that the whole bunch of his

14     testimony was introduced in the form of written form, in writing, unless

15     the Defence is opposed, for the benefit of the public the Chamber is

16     minded to ask you to read out the summary of his evidence.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Certainly, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honours, Mr. Mandic was the assistant minister

20     of interior for Bosnia and Herzegovina from 1991 until April 1992.  After

21     the outbreak of the conflict, Mr. Mandic was, for a short period, the

22     deputy minister -- or served as a deputy to Mr. Mico Stanisic for the

23     Serbian Ministry of the Interior, before becoming the minister of justice

24     for Republika Srpska on 19 May 1992.

25             From December --

Page 4420

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.  12th May, at the

 2     Assembly meeting in Banja Luka, I was appointed on the 12th of May, not

 3     the 19th of May.  That's certain.  It must be a typo.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  From December 1992 to 1994, Mr. Mandic served as the

 5     director of the Bureau of Republika Srpska in Belgrade.

 6             Mr. Mandic was the SDS nominee or selection for assistant

 7     minister of interior in the pre-war period, selected by Radovan Karadzic

 8     and Rajko Dukic, who was the president of the Executive Board of the SDS

 9     and the head of the Personnel Comission.  Part of Mr. Mandic's

10     responsibilities was to ensure that SDS selections for positions in the

11     MUP were realised, and he frequently spoke about this with the accused

12     and other SDS leaders.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, Mr. Tieger.

14             It was not about selections; it was about implementing the

15     agreement between the winning parties, and that agreement was on how,

16     according to national representation, senior posts would be distributed.

17     It was first Zepinic who was in charge of that, and then I took over.

18             At the beginning, Zepinic was the main personnel man on the

19     Serbian side in the MUP, and then I took over that role.  It was about

20     appointing the candidates put forward by the winning national parties to

21     various executive posts.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  On February 11th, 1992, leading Serb members of the

25     MUP were informed by Mico Stanisic about a decision of the Council of

Page 4421

 1     Ministers concerning, quote, "the establishment of Serb MUPs in

 2     municipalities where there was a majority Serb population."  And

 3     following this, Mr. Mandic informed Serb regional leaders in the MUP to

 4     move ahead with preparing a Serb MUP.  Part of the preparation --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not correct, Mr. Tieger.  I

 6     did not present it that way.

 7             On the 11th of February, there was a meeting of Serbian personnel

 8     in the joint MUP, where a dissatisfaction was expressed with the work of

 9     the joint MUP, and conclusions were adopted which are part of the

10     documentation; maybe not in this case, but in the Stanisic and Zupljanin

11     case and the Krajisnik case.  And that meeting was not convened by

12     Mico Stanisic, but by myself.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can go back to that document,

15     and you can put questions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We can continue.

17             MR. TIEGER:  We will return to that document, Mr. Mandic.

18             Part of the preparation included arming Serb police and Serb

19     police stations.

20             On 31 March 1992, Mr. Mandic sent a dispatch to all Serbian

21     police officers, instructing them, in accordance with decisions of the

22     Serb Assembly and the Council of Ministers, to split the MUP, the joint

23     MUP, along ethnic lines.

24             The National Security Council or NSC was established in April

25     1992, composed of Bosnian Serb leaders and presided over by the accused.

Page 4422

 1             On the 24th of April, 1992, the NSC decided that the Ministry of

 2     Justice would assume responsibilities for the exchange of prisoners after

 3     the organs of the Ministry of Interior had completed its work.  This

 4     decision resulted in the establishment on 8 May 1992 of a commission for

 5     exchange of prisoners of war and detained persons.  Mr. Mandic confirmed

 6     that non-Serb civilians, in addition to alleged combatants, were detained

 7     and exchanged into non-Serb areas.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Tieger.

 9             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I get the interpretation correctly,

11     "prisoners of war."  However, in the transcript, I read just "prisoners."

12     And we put it earlier that when we say in our language "prisoner," it

13     implies prisoners of war.  Nobody exchanged convicts.  We exchanged

14     prisoners of war.  But this has to be clear, and ask the interpreters, if

15     you will, whether it's true that "the prisoner" means not a convict, but

16     somebody who was detained in combat.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             At line 15, I see "prisoners of war," but let's continue.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             Collection centres or camps were established in Republika Srpska.

21     Mr. Mandic testified that a number of these collection centres detained

22     women, children, and persons who did not take part in the war.  This was,

23     in part, a result of ethnic cleansing.

24             Mr. Mandic said:

25             "The army set up collection centres, as did the police, and the

Page 4423

 1     police -- and the people from war-torn areas were brought there, and they

 2     were either exchanged or ethnic cleansing was conducted where there were

 3     no war operations."

 4             When shown a Ministry of Interior report of July 1992 with

 5     references to liberation of territories and mopping up, he said:

 6             "As far as I knew, these were combat operations carried on by the

 7     army, police, and these crisis staffs."

 8             And that:

 9             "I suppose these were combat operations and ethnic cleansing of

10     non-Serb population in some areas."

11             Referring to a series of intercepts and orders, Mr. Mandic

12     confirmed that prisoners being detained by Bosnian Serb authorities were

13     used for forced labour and that some Muslim prisoners were killed while

14     performing this work.

15             Mr. Mandic authenticated the intercept of a conversation he had

16     with Branko Kvesic on 10 July, 1992, where Mr. Mandic said there is no

17     sense in waging war now because:

18             "... counties and national communities have already taken

19     everything that was supposed to be taken."

20             Mr. Mandic testified that by this statement, he was conveying the

21     position of the state leadership of Republika Srpska; namely, the

22     president, Dr. Karadzic.

23             With respect to Sarajevo, Mr. Mandic stated that the ethnic

24     division of Sarajevo was one of the political objectives of the Serbian

25     leadership.  Mr. Mandic confirmed that when asked in a telephone

Page 4424

 1     conversation in April whether Sarajevo would be divided, he replied that

 2     the Sarajevo problem would be solved by war and then sit down to talk,

 3     and that reflected the attitude of the Bosnian Serb political leadership

 4     at the time.  He also stated that the way in which the Sarajevo problem

 5     was to be solved by war was explained when he said:

 6             "We're waiting for them to come from Lisbon.  The alternative is

 7     an old one.  We defeat Sarajevo and we expel them all the way to Visoko."

 8             Mr. Mandic said that Mr. Karadzic was aware of activities on the

 9     ground, stating that:

10             "Police and military structures informed him about what was going

11     on in the territory."

12             When asked whether the government made known to the Presidency

13     its concerns about irregularities and inhumane treatment in detention

14     facilities and camps, Mr. Mandic said:

15             "Yes, that was communicated on a daily basis."

16             Mr. Mandic testified that a 17 July 1992 Ministry of Interior

17     document sent to the accused and to the prime minister reported that:

18             "The army, crisis staffs, and war presidencies have requested

19     that the army round up or capture as many Muslim civilians as possible."

20             He also confirmed that the information contained in that

21     document, including the fact that conditions in camps were poor and some

22     persons were not observing international norms, reflected the kind of

23     information available at the time.

24             Mr. Mandic said that the government established a commission to

25     visit:

Page 4425

 1             "... facilities, prisons, collection centres, and other

 2     facilities where POWs were sheltered or people who had undergone ethnic

 3     cleansing and who were held by the army and the police."

 4             Mr. Mandic testified that in Republika Srpska:

 5             "The absolute number one was Dr. Radovan Karadzic, without a

 6     contest."

 7             The second-most powerful person was Momcilo Krajisnik.  Nobody

 8     could enter government without the permission of Karadzic and Krajisnik,

 9     and for government positions they selected only people they could trust.

10     Radovan Karadzic, as president of the republic, was the supreme military

11     commander.

12             And, Your Honour, with the Court's permission, I'll proceed with

13     the examination.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Mandic, perhaps it's only fair to begin by providing the

17     Court with a bit more detail about your background, although I know it's

18     contained in the transcript.  But it's useful and it shouldn't take long.

19             You attended the Police Academy in Sarajevo; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And then you worked for the SUP in Sarajevo; that is, the local

22     police?

23        A.   In the city police force of the city of Sarajevo.

24        Q.   And then you attended university, where you read law; is that

25     right?

Page 4426

 1        A.   I worked and studied at the same time --

 2        Q.   And --

 3        A.   -- and graduated from the Faculty of Law within three and a half

 4     years.

 5        Q.   After graduation, it's correct that you became a judge of the

 6     Basic Court?

 7        A.   I passed the Bar exam, and then after the Olympic Games in

 8     Sarajevo I became a judge of the Regular Court in Sarajevo.

 9        Q.   And you served as a judge until 1991, when you became an

10     assistant minister of the Bosnian MUP or Ministry of Interior?

11        A.   Early in 1991, at the proposal of Vitomir Zepinic, I went to the

12     head office of the Serbian Democratic Party, where he nominated me or

13     proposed me to Rajko Dukic, then head of the Executive Board and main

14     personnel man, and it was said that the SDS would nominate me for head of

15     serve for crime prevention.  And that was the first time I saw

16     Mr. Karadzic ever, my first contact with him.  And then he said - I

17     remember this well - we need good, honourable policemen of Serbian

18     ethnicity who will take into their hands law enforcement, protect the

19     lives and property of citizens.  And in all other matters concerning my

20     appointment, I communicated with Vitomir Zepinic and Rajko Dukic.  And

21     Zepinic --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't get whether Rajko Dukic

23     or Zepinic was then already appointed assistant minister for police.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Okay, I think we can move on with that.

25        Q.   In April of 1992, Mr. Mandic, you began to serve in the Bosnian

Page 4427

 1     Serb MUP, after the split of the police, and you served effectively as

 2     deputy to Mico Stanisic, as the deputy minister of the interior, is that

 3     correct, for a brief time?

 4        A.   It was the Government of the socialist Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, headed by Jure Pelivan, relieved me of my duties as

 6     assistant minister on 5 April 1992.  In that period between the 10th and

 7     the 25th April, I was at Vrace and I worked on the duties of assistant

 8     head of the Serbian police.  And although I was without any job at the

 9     time, Mico Stanisic gave me certain duties at Vrace.  And waiting for a

10     letter of appointment, I was informed, and you mentioned it a moment ago,

11     Mr. Tieger, at the session of the Council for National Security, or

12     whatever that body was called, I was invited to come to Pale on the 24th

13     of April, where I was told that the first minister of justice, the first

14     Serbian minister of justice, Ranko Nikolic, did not appear at work, and

15     that I would take his job.  And that was on the 16th of May in Banja

16     Luka, when I was appointed in his stead as the first Serbian minister of

17     justice.

18        Q.   Just to avoid the risk of any confusion, Mr. Mandic:  There is a

19     suggestion in your answer, and I want to clarify that, that you were --

20     that you only went to work for the Republika Srpska MUP because you were

21     relieved of your responsibilities as assistant minister for the joint

22     MUP.

23        A.   No, not only that.  I went of my own goodwill to Vrace, but I had

24     been relieved of my duties in the joint MUP, because the agreement had

25     been that appending the solution of status problems of all the employees,

Page 4428

 1     those employees, especially executive employees, should remain in their

 2     posts.  On the 7th of April, I came to work in the joint MUP, when I was

 3     given an official document relieving me of my duties, and then I reported

 4     to Mico Stanisic.  But the agreement had been that all the senior people

 5     in the joint MUP should stay in their posts until the whole situation in

 6     the republic and in the Ministry of Police is resolved.

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you served as the minister of justice until November

 8     of 1992; is that right?

 9        A.   23rd November 1992, until the session of the Assembly in Zvornik.

10     I believe that was the 23rd of November, when Mr. Branko Zeric [phoen]

11     resigned as prime minister.

12        Q.   And from there, you went on to be the director of the Bureau of

13     the Republika Srpska in Belgrade?

14        A.   I was head of the bureau, not director.  But never mind.  It was

15     a bureau of the Government of Republika Srpska, and then it grew into a

16     bureau of Republika Srpska.  It covered all forms of assistance to the

17     people and the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, people who came to

18     Belgrade; the wounded, veterans, disabled people who fled the war zones.

19        Q.   And just to round it out finally, and I think you indicated that

20     to the Court earlier, you were appointed as and served as the director of

21     the Privredna Banka?

22        A.   In November 1995, I was appointed director of Privredna Banka in

23     Serbian Sarajevo.

24        Q.   And who appointed you to that position?

25        A.   The board of directors of the bank.

Page 4429

 1        Q.   And I believe in your testimony in Krajisnik, you attributed your

 2     appointment to Mr. Krajisnik.  Is that accurate?

 3        A.   No.  He suggested that I should accept that position.  According

 4     to the Law on Banks, however, it was the board of directors that took

 5     that decision.  But since I was left without my job in the bureau,

 6     because I believe Mr. Karadzic relieved me of that, Karadzic -- sorry,

 7     Krajisnik suggested that I take this post, and I did.

 8        Q.   And I'm going to mention one last thing, Mr. Mandic, because it's

 9     been mentioned in every -- in both the Stanisic/Zupljanin case and in the

10     Krajisnik case.

11             You were also known for your sporting activities in Sarajevo and

12     in Bosnia, correct, and that was as a judo expert?

13        A.   Yes, I was a sportsman, judo.  I have a lot of medals on the

14     Yugoslav level and the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I continued

15     with that until the beginning of the war.

16        Q.   Just a couple of minutes, Mr. Mandic, so I want to just begin

17     with one topic, and that's relatively, chronologically, at the time of

18     your work with the joint MUP and your position as assistant minister in

19     the joint MUP.

20             First of all, it's correct, isn't it, that the composition -- the

21     ethnic composition of the joint MUP at that time was approximately

22     75 per cent Serb; is that right?

23        A.   I don't believe there was 70 per cent Serbs in the police, but it

24     was disproportionate to the national composition of Bosnia.  I believe

25     there were around 2.000 Serbs on the police force, and that was higher

Page 4430

 1     than the representation of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Well, at page 8650 in the course of the Krajisnik case, you said:

 3             "Up until the beginning of the war, in the police of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were about 11.000 members of the MUP"?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And:  "From among them -- or among them, there were 75 per cent

 7     Serbs"?

 8        A.   It must be a mistake.  That's not so, Mr. Tieger.  There were

 9     2.000 Serb policemen more than their percentage in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10     That's what we established in 1991.  And I believe I explained that in

11     the 1960s and the 1970s, it was mostly Serbs who joined the army and the

12     police.  It was a difficult job, a hard job, and the other two ethnic

13     communities did not favour it, so Serb young men were the majority

14     candidates for military and police academies, for purely social reasons,

15     of course.

16        Q.   I'll check the numbers on that over the evening.  But it is

17     correct, then, as you stated in Krajisnik, that in Bosnia and Herzegovina

18     it was mainly Serbs who were in the army and police, which did not

19     correspond to the ethnic pattern of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20        A.   That means, as we put it, the Serbs happily joined the police in

21     those years, the 1970s, because they lived in backward areas, mainly

22     raised cattle.  They lived in poverty, and this was a job that helped

23     them provide for their families.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And I did find the reference I was looking for, if I

25     could have one minute more, Your Honour.

Page 4431

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And that was at page 9338 of Krajisnik.

 3        Q.   During the cross-examination, you said:

 4             "I have to remind you, at the beginning, when the national

 5     parties only came into power, there were 10.000 employees in the Ministry

 6     of the Interior.  I'm speaking only about the uniformed staff.  Over

 7     7.000 of them were Serbs, a little over 2.000 were Muslims, and very few

 8     were Croats."

 9        A.   If I said that, I was wrong.  I'm sure that there were 2.000

10     Serbs relative -- 2.000 more Serbs than parity level, in terms of the

11     population of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I don't know if I actually said that.

12     But if I did, it's wrong.  What is correct is what I said now.

13             And, finally, it's possible to find, on the whole police force,

14     how many men there were in total and how many were Serbs, Muslims, and

15     Croats.  There must be records.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour and Mr. Mandic, it's now time to

17     adjourn.  It's 7.00.  And unless the Court has some further matter, I'll

18     resume the questioning tomorrow.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll adjourn for today.

20             Mr. Mandic, probably you must have been informed by other

21     Chambers, but during the course of your testimony you are not supposed to

22     discuss your evidence with anybody else.  Do you understand that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 4432

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of July,

 3                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.