Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4655

 1                           Tuesday, 6 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning to everybody.

 7                           [French interpretation on English channel]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We start today with French.  I think it's been

 9     resolved.

10             Mr. Tieger, please continue.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

16        A.   Good morning, Mr. Tieger.

17        Q.   Just before we adjourned yesterday, I had asked you about

18     something you said during the course of the Stanisic/Zupljanin case with

19     reference to what you called the vain professor types, and your reference

20     to the fact that it seemed important for them "to have photographs taken

21     with them," that is, photographs with paramilitary figures and those

22     professor types you're referring to, and you confirmed that.  That was at

23     page 4649 yesterday.  I wanted then to show you an image and ask you

24     whether or not that was one of the types of photo opportunities or photos

25     that you were referring to.

Page 4656

 1             And if we could play 40146 in Sanction for the benefit of the

 2     witness and the Court.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   It's a very brief clip, Mr. Mandic.  We can play it again, but

 6     you may have already recognised the persons depicted in the photograph.

 7        A.   Could it be -- could it be played again?  My screen was not on.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Certainly.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   And do you -- first of all, do you recognise the persons shown in

12     that brief video-clip?

13        A.   I believe that this happened before the war in Bijeljina, when

14     there were inter-ethnic tensions mounting, and Biljana Plavsic, as a

15     member of the Presidency, and Fikret Abdic, with some members of the

16     government, went to Bijeljina on that occasion because of that, and I

17     believe -- and this was something which was repeatedly aired on

18     BH Television, that she is here hugging and kissing with

19     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan.  I believe this took place in March 1992.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mandic.  And was that one of the images you had in

21     mind when you referred to having photographs taken with paramilitary

22     figures?

23        A.   I rather believe that this person that I spoke about a bit

24     emotionally yesterday did a job that she wasn't really good at doing, and

25     then, in a sort of exhibitionist way, sought to acquire popularity among

Page 4657

 1     the people and become a leader of the people in the given circumstances.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I tender 40146.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1108.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Mandic, yesterday there was reference to the 22nd Session of

 7     the Bosnian Serb Assembly in Zvornik in November of 1992.  That document

 8     was admitted.  You referred to comments made by a number of individuals,

 9     including Mrs. Plavsic, at that session, and I wanted to look briefly at

10     comments by Mrs. Plavsic at page 20 of the English and the bottom of

11     page 19 and page 20 of the B/C/S.  And I believe that's now P1105.

12             And, of course, we'll have to leave Sanction and get back into

13     e-court.

14             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, for housekeeping purposes, before

15     we address this excerpt, I need to note that the time or code for the

16     previous exhibit was 01:48:20 to 01:48:33.  That's the portion that was

17     played.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   Now, as indicated, Mr. Mandic, the portion of P1105 now shown on

21     the screen reflects remarks by Ms. Plavsic on that date, who says:

22             "I first want to say something that refers to me personally,

23     since Mico Stanisic mentioned my name.  I want to avoid any

24     misunderstandings, because people say many things, mostly about the crime

25     that's destroying our country and our people.  I don't want you to think

Page 4658

 1     this is some kind of rumour.  I'd like to respond to Minister Stanisic.

 2     It is the truth, not rumour, Minister, that after the statement by the

 3     president of the republic, i.e., his call to volunteers in all Serbian

 4     lands and all other Orthodox countries, I sent letters to all addresses.

 5     My intention was to pay anybody who is willing to fight for the Serbian

 6     cause and gather them around, so letters went out.  You talk about

 7     paramilitary and non-paramilitary formations.  You will have to excuse

 8     me.  That has nothing to do with me.  I was looking for the people who

 9     are willing to fight for the Serbian cause, who are willing to fight in

10     the territory of Republika Srpska.  The letters were sent to the

11     Soviet Union, to Seselj, Arkan and Jovanovic.  Do as you like.  Accuse me

12     now if you want.  I want to make it clear, because this is the second

13     time, Minister, it's not hearsay, I did do it, and you can judge me if

14     you want."

15             And "Applause" is indicated in the transcript.

16             Mr. Mandic, is this the -- are these the comments by Mrs. Plavsic

17     that you were referring to yesterday, at least in part, when discussing

18     her invitations to paramilitaries to come to Republika Srpska?

19        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, were you aware that -- aware of whether other

21     Bosnian Serb leaders thought highly of Arkan and wanted to have him come

22     to Republika Srpska or, indeed, wanted to have their pictures taken with

23     him?

24        A.   I'm not aware of anything like that.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Let me show you next, then, 65 ter 4508, another

Page 4659

 1     video-clip for which we'll have to move to Sanction.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honours, this is a video-clip from

 4     October 23, 1995.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Sir, the Battalion of the

 7     Serbian Volunteer Guard is lined up in your honour, sir.  Ranks ready for

 8     inspection."

 9             "For the Guard, and for you as the commander of the Guard."

10             "Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Gratitude for you being

11     here.  This is not the end, it is the beginning.  Thank you very much.

12     Mr. President, would you be so kind as to say a few words?"

13             "I'm deeply thankful and I congratulate you, and I hope that we

14     will meet again in peace, and you always will have a place in the heart

15     of those whom you have defended.  Thank you."

16             "Mr. President, in the name of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, I

17     wish to say two words to you, which is we are ready if you call us, and

18     that we will be back to defend our eternal homeland, to defend our women

19     and children, to defend Serbian territory and our Orthodox religion.

20     Thank you, Mr. President."

21             "Cheers."

22             "Very well, Mr. President.  We are going back now.  I want to

23     thank you once again."

24             "Goodbye."

25             "Here we are.  We will come, and we will stay in contact."

Page 4660

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Mandic, first of all, although I think I know the answer to

 3     that, were you aware of this particular ceremony?

 4        A.   No, I wasn't.  This is the first time I see it.

 5        Q.   And does that refresh your recollection about the extent of the

 6     support for Arkan or other paramilitaries by members of the Bosnian Serb

 7     leadership?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, could you try to identify the persons in

 9     the video?

10             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I should have done

11     that, of course.

12        Q.   Mr. Mandic, just for the benefit of the record and the Court, can

13     you indicate whether you recognised any of the persons depicted in the

14     video?

15        A.   In the video, I recognised the president of the Serbian Republic,

16     Mr. Radovan Karadzic, and Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, the commander of the

17     Volunteer Guard.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mandic.  And I had asked, before we completed

19     that, whether reviewing or seeing this video refreshed your recollection

20     about the extent of the support for Arkan or other paramilitaries by

21     members of the Bosnian Serb leadership.

22        A.   As we have seen from all this so far, Biljana Plavsic was in

23     charge of the inviting of such paramilitary units and of contacts with

24     them.  She was the bridge between the Bosnian Serbs, who were waging war

25     in Bosnia, and these people, who came from other states, to the best of

Page 4661

 1     my knowledge, of course.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I tender 40548.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             I don't believe this witness has been able to speak to this.

 5     This occurred after he left.  He said he was not familiar with the

 6     ceremony.  All he's done is identified two of the people who are in this,

 7     and I don't think this is a proper witness to lay the foundation for this

 8     exhibit.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But is the content not related to the subject-matter

10     of his testimony, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, it is, but I don't believe that makes it

12     admissible.  And it's broadly related, but it's not -- he's not able to

13     provide any foundation for the -- for the accuracy of what's depicted.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  In the view of the Chamber, Mr. Tieger, there's no

16     link that connects the video to the witness, so --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I may, I would note that -- I'm

18     sorry that I didn't have an opportunity to speak before the Chamber

19     conferred, but I would note the following with respect to the nexus or

20     the link:  The issue raised was invitations to the paramilitary, and

21     interactions with the paramilitary, support of the paramilitary,

22     et cetera.  The focus was on Mrs. Plavsic, who was a member of the

23     Presidency with Dr. Karadzic and a close associate with Dr. Karadzic.

24     The excerpt from the 22nd Session, which we read, said:

25             "After the statement of the president of the republic," that's

Page 4662

 1     Dr. Karadzic, "i.e. his call to volunteers in all Serbian lands and all

 2     other countries, Mrs. Plavsic reacted."

 3             It was testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin case which we heard

 4     concerning Mr. Mandic's reaction to Dr. Karadzic's support for

 5     Mrs. Plavsic.

 6             This is a document that would come in, in my submission, in every

 7     stringent common-law jurisdiction.  There's no question about the

 8     accuracy of this document.  It's a videotape, and I don't think

 9     Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic are going to contest that this videotape

10     accurately depicts what's shown in the video.  And it's Dr. Karadzic who

11     is depicted on that video.  It is a wholly appropriate moment for the

12     admission of this document, certainly more appropriate for a subsequent

13     submission -- or at least as appropriate as a subsequent submission

14     linked to the bulk of the evidence through written submissions in the

15     form of a Bar table or having a witness come in and say, These are

16     videotapes of the accused's link with paramilitary figures.  And I would

17     ask the Court to reconsider, in light of that -- and I say again I'm

18     quite sure that this is the case that this is the kind of document that

19     Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic want to see come in in this fashion.

20     They're simply noting their objection to previous rulings in response to

21     their submissions and, I think, trying to find parallels there.

22             Now, as I say, I think there are clear distinguishing factors,

23     but I believe if pressed, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic would say this is

24     an appropriate point at which to submit this document.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I --

Page 4663

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic, would you like to have

 2     a say?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I would like to say this:

 4     This is a question of principle, but not only of principle, but of the

 5     essence.

 6             Biljana Plavsic and what the witness spoke about referred to

 7     1992.  This is 1995.  Apart from that, in various instances we offered

 8     documents which refer to that phenomenon, and nothing was admitted.  Let

 9     us have another witness for that.  This is not detrimental to the Defence

10     at all, but it is a question of principle.  This is out of context.  We

11     asked for some documents to be admitted in context which directly refer

12     to the subject-matter at hand, whereas this is totally out of context.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Tieger, there's no issue as to the relevancy or the accuracy

15     of the video-clip, and I agree that that may be a subject of a separate

16     Bar table motion in the later stage.  What concerns is the proper control

17     of the conduct of the examination.

18             In order to put something to the witness, there should be some

19     nexus or links.  Otherwise, in a trial of this size, there will be no

20     end, in particular, in the face of cross-examination.  That's the

21     perspective of the Chamber as at this moment, and I think the Chamber has

22     tried, on several occasions, to make the position of the Chamber

23     understood to the parties.

24             So this will not be admitted, as we indicated, and let's move on,

25     Mr. Tieger.

Page 4664

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Mandic, yesterday we presented a number of documents

 3     reflecting a contemporaneous awareness of Arkan's presence in Sarajevo.

 4     Were you aware that Arkan was working with or in communication with

 5     Bosnian Serb political or military authorities in the spring or summer of

 6     1992?

 7        A.   I know that Biljana Plavsic communicated with Zeljko Raznatovic,

 8     Arkan, from March 1992.  As for others, I don't know.

 9        Q.   And let me ask you a background question.  Who was Radmila?

10        A.   No.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Let me play, then, for you 65 ter 30666.

12             And, Your Honour, although the previous video-clip was not

13     admitted, perhaps it's useful, nevertheless, to indicate the time code of

14     that exhibit that was played today, and that would be 00:01:00 to

15     00:04:05.

16                           [Audio-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Good day.  Staff of Serbian

18     Volunteer Guard."

19             "Good day."

20             "I'm calling you from the Serb MUP in Sarajevo."

21             "From the Serb?"

22             "Sarajevo SUP, Secretariat of the Interior."

23             "Yes?"

24             "Tell me, which of our men, and what is the number of Zvornik

25     police station?  Who do we have in Zvornik?"

Page 4665

 1             "Just a minute."

 2             "And who is in control of Zvornik?"

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Mandic, I wanted to indicate to you this is an

 4     intercepted telephone conversation of the 16th of April, 1992.

 5             And if we could proceed.

 6                           [Audio-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Hello."

 8             "Hello."

 9             "Good day."

10             "Serb MUP."

11             "Yes."

12             "Sarajevo."

13             "Who is in control of Zvornik, and do we have a police station in

14     Zvornik?"

15             "And where are you calling from?"

16             "From Sarajevo."

17             "Just a second, just a minute."

18             "Thanks a lot.  Hello."

19             "Yes."

20             "Who is this?"

21             "Radmila.  Who is there?"

22             "Arkan speaking."

23             "Arkan, this is Radmila."

24             "Now I will tell you which one."

25             "Aha. "

Page 4666

 1             "The one Zoran Kalezic told you about, but you cannot remember,

 2     and through Buda Markovic."

 3             "Oh, yes, yes."

 4             "Listen, man, one of our men fell in Zvornik.  He was returning

 5     from Belgrade.  He pulled out a family ..."

 6             "What did he do?"

 7             "Well, he fell, he was caught in Zvornik."

 8             "How in heaven's name in Zvornik?"

 9             "Well, that's exactly what we're asking ourselves."

10             "But I don't understand.  How come he fell in Zvornik?"

11             "Here's what happened.  He was working for us ... he was working

12     under Momo Mandic."

13             "Yes."

14             "... yesterday, he drove the family of Momo's brother, Mladjen,

15     to Belgrade."

16             "Yes."

17             "... and he was on his way back.  Mladjo, what's the name of the

18     man -- no, the man in Zvornik who caught him?  Arkan, some Sabic."

19             "Who the fuck is Sabic?"

20             "I don't know.  Look now, the kid used to drive for Hilmo in the

21     brewery, he used to work for him, and now we do not know what to do.

22     Hilmo, I guess that Sabic had called Hilmo to let him know.  Hilmo said:

23     'The kid went to look for nitrogen, let him go,' ammoniac, ammoniac,

24     under the pretence it was for the brewery, you know?  However, they are

25     not willing to let him go because the car is ours, the SUP's, the car in

Page 4667

 1     which they caught him, a Golf, with registration plates."

 2             "They caught him in Zvornik?"

 3             "He says he fell in Zvornik:

 4             "Well, it is impossible in Zvornik, Zvo..."

 5             "My opinion in Zvornik.  "

 6             "There is nobody, it is certainly not Zvornik."

 7             "Where could he fall?"

 8             "I do not know, but it is not in Zvornik.  The Serbs are in

 9     control of Zvornik."

10             "Well, he called and said he was in Zvornik."

11             "He called?"

12             "That Sabic called and said that he was caught in Zvornik."

13             "In Zvornik, no way.  Surely not in Zvornik."

14             "Well, tell me, please, on his way to Belgrade, via Zvornik to

15     Sarajevo, is there a village or a backwater town, is there anybody,

16     anything where they are holding, where the road for us is not safe?"

17             "To tell you the truth, I do not know.  I do not have a clue."

18             "You do not know?"

19             "I do not know."

20             "We do not know.  You know what, at this point in time we still

21     cannot show our cards to them, so they would not realise that they caught

22     a big-shot, you know?"

23             "Yes, yes."

24             "Well, I mean, he's not a big-shot, but he is working for us,

25     yes."

Page 4668

 1             "Well, I mean, I don't know, I do not know at all."

 2             "And do you have your men in Zvornik who might have some

 3     knowledge on where he might be?"

 4             "Well, no.  I pulled my men out of Zvornik."

 5             "Oh, you pulled your men out of Zvornik?"

 6             "Well, of course, you can see they are after me.  Do you not know

 7     what the situation is?"

 8             "I know everything, man, there's everything ... they are after

 9     us, as well, it seems like the whole world is after us."

10             "I pulled out my men because ..."

11             "The Serbs down there in Zvornik to control."

12             "The Serbs and the army are down there."

13             "Do you know any -- well, it's of no use even if we know now."

14             "I will now call the Crisis Staff down there to see what is

15     happening."

16             "Give it to us, too, we also do not have it down here."

17             "Where are the numbers of the Crisis Staff in Zvornik?  Give it

18     to me."

19             "What is the name of the kid?"

20             "Dejan."

21             "Dejan."

22             "Dejan Markovic, Dejan Markovic, come on."

23             "Here you go."

24             "705."

25             "All right."

Page 4669

 1             "584."

 2             "All right."

 3             "704."

 4             "704.  Any other?"

 5             "And 075."

 6             "All right."

 7             "584-685."

 8             "685."

 9             "I will call them immediately."

10             "Please do so.  When will you be coming here?"

11             "Sorry?"

12             "When will you be coming here?"

13             "Ha, eh, eh."

14             "How are your children?"

15             "Fine."

16             "All right.  Well, come visit us as well."

17             "Well I do not know what all of you want me."

18             "What do you think?  Why is that?"

19             "But you should realise the situation, which is ..."

20             "Well, we do, we realise it, but in vain."

21             "Ah?"

22             "In vain, Arkan, in vain.  In vain, I don't know, well it is not

23     in vain, look ..."

24             "Wait, where are you now?"

25             "I am in our staff, up there in Vrace, in the school."

Page 4670

 1             "Aha."

 2             "This is the only thing we are holding in Sarajevo.  Do you have

 3     our number?"

 4             "I have all of the numbers.  I talked to that guy Stanisic,

 5     and ..."

 6             "Yes, Mico Stanisic, rush him away from Pale.  What are they

 7     doing up there?"

 8             "Fuck them, how should I know what they're doing?"

 9             "Why don't they come down from Pale to the city instead of ..."

10             "I have another line, I will talk to them, and you stay on the

11     line."

12             "All right.  Go ahead, Arkan."

13             "So, you are in Sarajevo?"

14             "We are in Sarajevo, in that school in Vrace."

15             "Well, are you holding at least that ... ?"

16             "We are holding that.  Look, we are holding ... Arkan, we could

17     hold everything, if only someone gave us the order to go.  I don't know

18     what they're waiting for."

19             "Well, that's it."

20             "Well, why wait?  Because America is threatening Serbia; right?"

21             "That's it."

22             "And we are scared."

23             "That is the thing, they are all chickens."

24             "Chicken, of course.  And they let the time go."

25             "That is what we ..."

Page 4671

 1             "We lost the time, we should have -- we should have when ..."

 2             "Nobody is answering this phone, 584-704."

 3             "That is -- no way.  You should not have allowed them that, they

 4     start slacking."

 5             "Hey, wait, wait.  I will know.  I have this other number ..."

 6             "Do that.  Nobody is answering the Zvornik Crisis Staff today."

 7             "That is it."

 8             "Did you hear from Buda?"

 9             "No."

10             "Why?"

11             "Well, it's been a long time since we talked.  Tell me one thing,

12     please.  Well ..."

13             "Go ahead."

14             "So Sarajevo, you control at least one part of it?"

15             "We control one part, and they do not dare even show their heads

16     in that part.  We could control a large part of Sarajevo.  Look now, we

17     could push them into their own part of town.  But why does not -- why

18     doesn't anyone give us that order?"

19             "Well, Karadzic should do that.  Do you have his phone number?"

20             "Up there in Pale?"

21             "Well, yes, of course I do, when they are coming and going and

22     they leave."

23             "Why don't you ask him, he is kind of an official representative

24     now?"

25             "We have just received information they are drawing the map and

Page 4672

 1     they are in Pale."

 2             "What?"

 3             "They are in Pale, only Momo, deputy minister is here."

 4             "Yes, yes.  And what can he do?  He can do nothing."

 5             "Well, he cannot do a thing until they have issued an order.  The

 6     army is here, everything is here, but it's in vain."

 7             "Well, the army also escaped.  They were threatened with planes,

 8     and they ran away."

 9             "Where?"

10             "Ah?"

11             "Where are they are, here?"

12             "Well, the army threatened them, I mean the Americans threatened

13     them."

14             "The Americans?"

15             "Well, yes."

16             "That inform -- well, all right, these people certainly know

17     that."

18             "Fuck them all."

19             "Well, they should send it.  Why did they not send it to Croatia,

20     to Zagreb?"

21             "Who?"

22             "Well, America."

23             "There is no choice.  You can see that the world public is

24     accusing us of being the aggressor."

25             "Yes, I would not really be scared."

Page 4673

 1             "Well, we are not afraid.  We can only die once, not 100 times."

 2             "Only once, yes ... I would not pay much ..."

 3             "None of us gives a fuck, to be honest."

 4             "Right, I would not."

 5             "That is why we have to be careful.  You see that 17.000 children

 6     came here from Sarajevo."

 7             "And now what happens, we wait; right?  And let them have it."

 8             "Yesterday some kid, an ambassador was here ..."

 9             "Well, to hell with her."

10             "She says she is the ambassador of children, she drove ..."

11             "She is the ambassador of Alija's children."

12             "No, no, ours, our children."

13             "Ah, our children?"

14             "Yes, ours.  Her name is Vidakovic."

15             "Vidakovic."

16             "Yes.  Her mother and father are in France."

17             "That is all theirs, that is all a part of their politics.  I do

18     not believe a thing.  Credit to them for working for children, but ..."

19             "They moved us out.  Fuck them."

20             "Yes."

21             "Excuse me for expressing myself this way, but that is how things

22     are."

23             "You just ..."

24             "This other number is busy all the time."

25             "685; right?"

Page 4674

 1             "Yes, yes, and there it is ringing, but nobody is answering.  We

 2     will try again.  Listen."

 3             "Go ahead."

 4             "Come on, call in some time, or ... you understand."

 5             "This same number?"

 6             "Yes."

 7             "Okay, I will call you again."

 8             "Cheers."

 9             "Cheers."

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   First, Mr. Mandic, did you recognise any of the voices involved

12     in that conversation?

13        A.   I did not recognise a single voice.  I don't have any of these

14     voices.

15        Q.   The intercept indicates it's a conversation between

16     Radmila Kalaba and Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan.  I asked you before if

17     you knew who Radmila was.  Can you tell us anything about Radmila, a

18     Radmila who was connected with the Serbian MUP in Sarajevo?

19        A.   I don't know who Radmila Kalaba is.  She's probably some

20     administrator, a person working in the Serb police.  I don't know.  I

21     cannot remember that name, the first or the last name.  It's one of the

22     desk officers there, probably.  Now, whether that person worked in the

23     police then or before that, I'm just sure that before the war that person

24     did not work for the police, and I don't know the name of Radmila Kalaba

25     at all.

Page 4675

 1        Q.   Well, let's set aside the last name for a moment.  Did you know

 2     the name of a woman named Radmila who worked for you and was involved on

 3     at least more than one occasion in calling persons on your behalf to make

 4     contact with them on the telephone?

 5        A.   My secretary was Radmila Radojcic before the war in the joint

 6     MUP, and for a while she was with me in Vraca in the Ministry of Justice.

 7     However, this is not that person.  This was Radmila Radojcic.  Obviously,

 8     it's not this same person, Radmila Kalaba.  It was a completely different

 9     person who worked with me or was my secretary, rather, Radmila Radojcic.

10     I think that right now she works in the police centre in Bijeljina.

11     Before the war and during the war, she worked for the Ministry of

12     Justice, and she was my secretary.  This Kalaba, I don't know who she is.

13        Q.   As we see from this conversation, this Radmila is calling in

14     connection with a person who was thought to have been -- to have fallen

15     or been taken captive in Zvornik, someone who was working under

16     Momo Mandic, she says, and who drove the family of Momo's brother,

17     Mladen, to Belgrade.

18        A.   Mr. Tieger, I'm aware of this particular event.  I first listened

19     to this conversation during the proofing with Ms. Korner, the Prosecutor

20     here.  I first heard it two or three months ago.  This Dejan Markovic was

21     a driver in the brewery.  Hilmo Selimovic was the director, and he was

22     assistant minister in the joint Ministry of the Police.  He was my

23     friend, a local Sarajevo man.  This young man, who was about 20 at the

24     time, drove my brother's family to Belgrade.  My brother was also a

25     policeman.  He was a teacher at the Police School.  He was arrested at

Page 4676

 1     some point by an armed Muslim group, and this Kalaba probably knew what

 2     telephone -- knew various telephone numbers and had contact with

 3     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan.  Hilmo Selimovic helped me a great deal, at my

 4     insistence, and he found this young man somewhere, I don't know, in some

 5     town, and there was this exchange.  And I know that this young man was

 6     saved thanks to Hilmo Selimovic and his acquaintances who had arrested

 7     this young man who was about 20 at the time.

 8             As for this conversation, I first heard it when I was being

 9     proofed by Ms. Korner, and this Radmila certainly did not work for the

10     police before.

11        Q.   And do you recall whether she advised you of the information she

12     had gathered, in connection with that incident, from Arkan?

13        A.   Mr. Tieger, I don't know who Radmila is, Radmila Kalaba.

14        Q.   Were you aware of the circumstances in Zvornik, as related in

15     this intercept, at that time?

16        A.   I only know what I know from this conversation.  I did not know

17     what was happening in Zvornik.  Well, you see from the conversation,

18     itself, that this woman does not know who is in Zvornik and what is going

19     on there, and that she is not aware of the facts involved.  I really

20     don't know.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I want to tender this intercept.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We would object to it, first

23     of all, on relevance grounds.  I'm not sure, really, how it relates to

24     the case against Dr. Karadzic.  Secondly, to the extent that the witness

25     has been able to speak to the document, it's only about a tangential

Page 4677

 1     issue concerning his brother's transportation and not about anything that

 2     is really relevant to the case, so I don't believe it's admissible.  If

 3     for any reason you did think it was admissible, I think it would only be

 4     able to be marked for identification at this point, since it's not a

 5     conversation that the witness can authenticate.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to reply, Mr. Tieger?

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I don't know if the Court requires me to reply

 8     with reference to the relevance.  This -- I hardly know where to start.

 9             This is contact by the Serbian MUP, according to the intercept,

10     to determine what's happening in Zvornik.  Arkan has -- relates his

11     relationship with the Serbian authorities in Zvornik and leaving matters

12     in their hands.  There's a question of when he might come.  The

13     connection between -- the linkage between Dr. Karadzic and the Serbian

14     MUP has been made clear on a number of occasions, in a number of ways.  I

15     just tried to tender a document related to Dr. Karadzic's interaction

16     with Arkan, himself.

17             I could go on and on, but I don't think that's the issue.  As far

18     as MFI'ing it, I appreciate the fact that this witness has not identified

19     the participants in the intercept, but has, instead, talked to some

20     extent about some of what's related in the content of that discussion.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Although the witness was not able to identify

23     the voices in the intercept, the witness's name was referred to in this

24     intercept and the witness confirmed the event referred to in the

25     intercept.  So, as such, we'll mark it for identification.

Page 4678

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P1109, Your Honours.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, on Thursday, I believe it was, you asked -- you

 4     referred to an intercept in your intercept binder, involving you and

 5     Mr. Prstojevic, and asked if that could be played.  In fact, you asked

 6     twice to hear that intercept.  Do you recall that?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, when I asked him to return this judge, a Muslim, to his

 8     job, because he had dismissed him.

 9        Q.   Well, in fact, Mr. Mandic, you indicated, when you were referring

10     to this intercept, that it was about the complete blockade of the

11     municipality and about Judge Musanovic, but, in fact, the discussion was

12     broader than that.  It was about ethnic cleansing of Ilidza; correct?

13        A.   I don't know.  Could I have this other part?  Or, actually, could

14     I have a look at the binder, and then I can look it up in the binder.

15        Q.   You can do both.  We'll play the intercept, and you can have the

16     binder with you at the same time.

17        A.   Well, let's play the intercept, then, if possible, but the entire

18     conversation.

19             MR. TIEGER:  And that's at tab 17 of your binder, Mr. Mandic.

20             Your Honours, that's 65 ter 30829.  And, again, we have to move

21     to Sanction.

22                           [Audio-clip played]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Can we start again?  Is Sanction on?

24                           [Audio-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "Good afternoon."

Page 4679

 1             "Good afternoon."

 2             "Serb Ministry of Justice.  May I get through to Mr. Prstojevic

 3     through this number, please?"

 4             "Who wants to speak to him?"

 5             "The minister."

 6             "The minister?"

 7             "Momcilo Mandic, the minister of justice."

 8             "Aha, Momcilo Mandic, one moment, please."

 9             "Thank you."

10             "Hello."

11             "Yes."

12             "Mr. Prstojevic?"

13             "Speaking."

14             "One moment, please."

15             "Hello."

16             "Hello."

17             "Good afternoon."

18             "Good fortune to you, Prstojevic."

19             "How are you?"

20             "Very well, and how are you?"

21             "Very well.  Who am I talking to?"

22             "It's Momo Mandic."

23             "Momo Mandic, the Minister of Justice."

24             "Yes, that's right.  That's right."

25             "No minister has a more beautiful name?"

Page 4680

 1             "That's right."

 2             "Because there is nothing more beautiful than justice, is there?"

 3             "That's right.  We just need to achieve it."

 4             "A ..."

 5             "Listen, Prstojevic, listen to me, do you have any problems in

 6     Ilidza?  Is anyone bothering you?  Are they attacking you?"

 7             "No, no one is bothering me."

 8             "You're not letting them, are you?"

 9             "That's right.  Whoever bothers me, I get hold of a weapon and

10     start shooting.  When the Turks bother me and my army, I get hold of

11     weapons and defend ..."

12             "Are you from Herzegovina or Zagora?"

13             "Well, not really.  I'm an Orthodox Herzegovinian."

14             "A Herzegovinian, is it?"

15             "Well, Kalinovik is my municipality."

16             "Aha.  I have two questions for you."

17             "Yes."

18             "It has come to our attention and that of the government that you

19     are issuing ultimatums to some Turks; evicting people from certain

20     settlements and people respond badly to it.  They are abusing this, those

21     Muslims and the media and so on."

22             "Yes."

23             "Well, please do not do anything like it.  Consult with Djeric

24     first and those people up there, because this is very bad publicity for

25     us and for everyone.  You have to be more flexible there and not touch

Page 4681

 1     those Muslims who are willing to listen, who are loyal.  We cannot

 2     ethnically cleanse Ilidza or any other place.  At least that is the

 3     attitude of the government and political leadership and all.  It has

 4     already reached the top how in some settlement you gave them 24 hours to

 5     move out and they ... well, no, not the safety ... what was it?  What did

 6     you say?  You are not ... you are not responsible for their safety or

 7     something like that."

 8             "Well, yes, but where did I say this?"

 9             "Well, people you have to ..."

10             "I know, but we did not say that, not in public.  That is not our

11     policy."

12             "I know, I know what it should be and how we should operate and

13     so ..."

14             "Yes, but we do not say that in public, nor do we write it."

15             "Please, in that context, you know what is necessary.  You were

16     probably up there during the talks and that and how it should be done,

17     and those Muslims who said that about us, we have to ... it's some sort

18     of protection, mother-fuckers, as long as they listen, behave.  In that

19     context, Fadil Musanovic is a judge.  But, look, talk to him.  If he has

20     not already fled, place him to work for us, so that we can say that we

21     employ everyone, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs, regardless of ethnicity, as

22     long as they are loyal to the Serb state.  So have a look, please.  Place

23     two or three Muslims somewhere, mother-fuckers, let ..."

24             "You know what, Momo?"

25             "What?"

Page 4682

 1             "Even with the best of intentions, with all the Muslims from

 2     Ilidza have already done, and what they are doing, let's say, as long as

 3     there is a blockade of the Serbs in Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija, it's

 4     been a month since no Serb has come out."

 5             "I know.  My sister and my father are there."

 6             "No one has come out of there, despite the fact that we allow it.

 7     Let them come out now.  Let them have 5.000 Muslims from there.  Let them

 8     release as many Serbs.  We are not in a position to let someone work at

 9     the moment.  Our Misdemeanor Court did not receive a single report.  No

10     one submitted any."

11             "Well, push Tomo Kovac and the police.  Make them work.  They are

12     looting there, they're disrupting public peace and order.  You are the

13     government there, so force these people to work.  Make them arrest

14     people.  Lots of things are going on.  I don't mean in Ilidza,

15     specifically, but across this republic of ours.  There are gangs,

16     thieves, war profiteers, so let the police do their job.  Force them,

17     hold a meeting with them.  If the Court is operational, it is supposed to

18     work.  Let there believe report, let them work."

19             "Yes."

20             "Look, I think it would be good politically.  I don't want to

21     insist on it.  It's not up to me.  Ilidza is not mine.  It was not,

22     everything, in the media and this and that, just like they take Pejanovic

23     or Kecmanovic or anyone of ours and then the entire world knows about it.

24     I think that we have to learn certain things even from these Muslims."

25             "Yes."

Page 4683

 1             "For the general public and all, I mean, if there is not

 2     somewhere, there are others, and other work positions, and to say, to

 3     publish that, put it on television, 'Srna,' and then Belgrade and so on,

 4     not only Ilidza but other areas also look into that."

 5             "Tell me, tell me, when are you ..."

 6             "I'm in Kula all the time, or rather in Lukavica."

 7             "All right, I'll stop by as soon as I have the chance ..."

 8             "Please do come ..."

 9             "... to talk over coffee and ..."

10             "Well, yes, okay, then, agreed."

11             " ... the Serb municipality of Ilidza, you see.  Because I see

12     that they have some, let's say, even territorial differences, they are

13     appear in the organisation of judicial system and so on."

14             "All right, no problems.  That is normal, we will sit down and

15     discuss.  There are no problems, whenever you come, stop by and we will

16     agree."

17             "I will stop by."

18             "Agreed.  But, please, have a look with your associates, with

19     Tomo Kovac, to work on that, for people to be punished, because these

20     criminals and profiteers are extremely active."

21             "That's right, but you see, only the other day we received ..."

22             "All right, all right, now you need to get involved and press

23     Kovac to work."

24             "Yes, 'Official Gazette' number 6.  We only received it the day

25     before yesterday."

Page 4684

 1             "Yes, yes."

 2             "Only now we have the legal basis we can start with work."

 3             "Excellent, excellent.  Go on.  Let that be adopted for people to

 4     see that Serbs do not ... that they do not drink and that they are not

 5     firing cannon, but that we work, that we are normal people and that we

 6     want a legal state protecting all of our inhabitants and all the rest."

 7             "All right, Momo."

 8             "Talk to you later."

 9             "All right, then."

10             "Cheers."

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   First, Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the participants in that

13     conversation?

14        A.   It is I and Prstojevic, Nedjeljko.

15        Q.   You asked to have that played.  Does hearing it now refresh your

16     recollection that it concerned information you had that Prstojevic had

17     commenced or was engaged in ethnic cleansing in Ilidza?

18        A.   It reached the prime minister, Mr. Djeric, up there at the

19     government, and he informed me about this.  And, of course, he said that

20     I should carefully talk to Mr. Prstojevic, and that he should not block

21     normal life in Ilidza, and that he should not dismiss people just because

22     they're Muslims.

23             Mr. Tieger, for example, Prstojevic is saying that specifically

24     here, in Hrasnica there were a certain number of Serbs who had lived

25     there, and they were detained in the school or the health centre in

Page 4685

 1     Hrasnica.  Now, both of them were trying to see how they -- since they

 2     could keep detained Serbs in Hrasnica, then we could do the same thing in

 3     Ilidza.  I was trying to explain that to him, that that was wrong, and

 4     the Serb state could not be created that way, and that people should not

 5     be blocked or detained in that way, or dismissed from their jobs, just

 6     because they're of a different ethnicity.

 7        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, you seem to be focusing on blocking or

 8     dismissing, but you direct Mr. Prstojevic's attention in this intercept

 9     to evicting people.  And, in fact, that was the information you had from

10     Tomo Kovac, among others; correct?

11        A.   At that moment, no, I didn't have it.  I had information from

12     Mr. Djeric that Prstojevic had told the Muslims in a part of the Ilidza

13     settlement that he would not guarantee -- could not guarantee their

14     security there if they remained, which was very bad both for the Serbian

15     Republic, and for the politics pursued by the Serbian people, and for

16     everybody.  And we tried to persuade Prstojevic not to do that, that he

17     could not seek to conduct ethnic cleansing in such a way or to intimidate

18     others, non-Serbs, in that way.

19        Q.   And you stressed to Mr. Prstojevic the detrimental public

20     relations impact of such efforts; correct?

21        A.   I tried to persuade him, Mr. Tieger, to impress it upon him that

22     this was not to be done, it is not the done thing.  I talked about the

23     public -- the politics of the Serbian government, of the Serbian

24     leadership, who kept repeating that one could not aspire after an

25     ethnically-clean state in the space of Europe or the former

Page 4686

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  On Thursday, we spoke about specific individuals,

 2     that man from the Krajina, I cannot remember his name right now, and

 3     about Prstojevic, who were right-wingers, who were chauvinists,

 4     nationalists, which is a phenomenon in any nation.  Yes, the man's name

 5     is Vojo Kupresanin.

 6        Q.   And as far as you could tell and during that conversation,

 7     Mr. Prstojevic understood the public relations aspect and assured you

 8     that he hadn't done so publicly; correct?  In fact, he was at pains to

 9     make the point that he hadn't said that in public?

10        A.   No, Mr. Tieger.  He didn't understand it to be for the sake of

11     the public.  He asked me, Who told you that?  Where was this said, where

12     was this heard?  Who could have conveyed his positions to the government?

13     There was no reference to the public, in the sense of the mass media, but

14     this was said in front of another person who had relayed his position to

15     the government, and, therefore, we ask him not to do what he was doing

16     and what he was intending to do.

17             There is another intercept of my conversation with Tomo Kovac,

18     when I proposed to Tomo to try and persuade this Prstojevic not to do

19     some things which he was stubbornly carrying out.  I even proposed that

20     if he could not do anything else, that he kill him.  Of course, I wasn't

21     being serious, but what I meant was that he should try, in every

22     conceivable way, to try and persuade that person not to do that, what he

23     was doing.

24        Q.   In light of the information that you had, was there any effort

25     made by you or anyone else to relieve Mr. Prstojevic of his

Page 4687

 1     responsibilities?

 2        A.   In precisely this conversation, I explained to Prstojevic that it

 3     wasn't mine, as the minister of justice, to regulate the municipal

 4     administration.  He could have only been dismissed from work by the local

 5     government, the local municipal president, the municipal administration.

 6     Possibly, the government could have introduced provisional measures and

 7     installed a caretaker municipal government, disbanding the former one,

 8     and thereby that could have been achieved.

 9        Q.   And I assume the answer to this question flows from the first,

10     but was there any effort made to initiate proceedings or to otherwise

11     punish Mr. Prstojevic for what he had done or attempted to do?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  On what ground, Mr. Karadzic?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Distinguished Mr. Tieger says that

15     he attempted to do something, but this was only said somewhere.  We don't

16     know for sure whether something was really done.  We had a propaganda

17     from the Muslim mass media that that was done, but Prstojevic, himself,

18     denied having done it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not a proper intervention, Mr. Karadzic.

20     You can clarify, if necessary, during your cross-examination.

21             Mr. Mandic, can you answer the question?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you be so kind as to repeat

23     the question, Mr. Tieger?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. Mandic.

25        Q.   Was there any effort, to your knowledge, made to initiate

Page 4688

 1     proceedings or to otherwise punish Mr. Prstojevic for what he had done or

 2     attempted to do?

 3        A.   Mr. Tieger, I received from Mr. Djeric information and an order

 4     to talk to Prstojevic and to point out to him that if he was doing those

 5     things, that he cannot do them.  I don't know whether he was punished, I

 6     mean Prstojevic, in any way.  He was a deputy to the Assembly and had

 7     such immunity, and he also was an official in the municipality.  Whether

 8     he was punished, I don't know.  I know that he was called to Pale after

 9     some time for a conversation to be conducted with him precisely in

10     connection with those problems, but what happened after that, I don't

11     know.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, I should stand corrected if I'm wrong,

13     but Mr. Prstojevic was at the time the president of Serb municipality of

14     Ilidza as well as an MP of the Serbian Assembly?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is right, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Can it be said that he, Mr. Prstojevic, as such, is

17     a subordinate to you, you in the wider sense, as government?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  He was an MP, Prstojevic, and

19     he enjoyed immunity, Your Honour.  The Executive Branch didn't have any

20     powers vis-a-vis him until his immunity was waived by the municipality

21     or, rather, by the Legislative Commission of the Serbian People, and, as

22     such, he did not fall under the powers of the Executive Branch of

23     government.  This is a process whereby a deputy's immunity is waived in

24     the National Assembly, and once that has been done by the Assembly, any

25     proceedings can be instituted against him.  Up to that point, as an MP

Page 4689

 1     enjoying immunity, like all the other MPs, and the president of the

 2     Assembly and the president of the state, he was immune to any such

 3     action.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  However, you can say that he had immunity as to what

 5     he was doing in the capacity of the deputy of the Assembly, but I don't

 6     believe that he enjoyed such privilege in the capacity of the president

 7     of the municipality.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he was concurrently

 9     an MP and the president of the municipality.  At the same time, he held

10     two offices.  As an MP, he had been elected by the local people or by the

11     deputies to the office of president of Ilidza municipality.  By his very

12     election to the office of president, his election to the office of

13     president did not mean that his term of office, his mandate as a deputy,

14     had seized.

15             And in this conversation, I told him, It is not mine to order

16     anything to you, but I am asking you, do not do that, because it is not

17     good for the Serbian people, it is not in the interests of the Serbian

18     people and its government.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, this intercept was dated in June

20     sometime, 2nd of June, 1992?

21             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, how what the president of the

23     municipality appointed at that time?  Was he elected or appointed by

24     somebody?  How was the president of the municipality appointed?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The MPs of the local Parliament

Page 4690

 1     elected the president of the Assembly, and the local parliamentarians

 2     elected him as the president of Ilidza municipality, the parliamentarians

 3     from the area.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Just one point of clarification, Mr. Mandic.  My recollection is

 8     there was a discussion about Mr. Prstojevic during the discussion of the

 9     Krajisnik case, during which you indicated that he was a deputy, and that

10     was later clarified in the course of your examination, that he was not.

11     And that can be checked, of course, but that's my recollection, that you

12     indicated that he wasn't a deputy.  And, of course, we can check the

13     records one way or another.

14        A.   Please do check, Mr. Tieger I believe that he was among the 83

15     MPs of the 1st Serbian Assembly.  I'm convinced of it.  If I am wrong, I

16     will be corrected, but I'm sure that he was an MP and that he came to

17     Assembly sessions and spoke at Assembly sessions, as far as I can recall.

18     In fact, I'm certain of it.

19        Q.   I'm not disputing that he spoke at Assembly sessions.  In fact,

20     we looked, during the course of your testimony here, at some comments by

21     Mr. Prstojevic at the 17th Assembly Session.  But it's true, is it not,

22     that others, beyond members of Parliament or deputies, spoke at the

23     Assembly sessions, including ministerial officials, members of the

24     Presidency, presidents of municipalities, and so on; correct?

25        A.   Mr. Tieger, in the parliamentary system, Assembly sessions are

Page 4691

 1     attended by the MPs, by the members of the government, and by the

 2     Presidency members, and at invitation, some other persons who the

 3     president of the Assembly deems should be present and contribute to the

 4     discussion.  As Prstojevic was there every single time, I am convinced

 5     that he, indeed, was an MP, because there was no other grounds for him to

 6     be there.  After all, find the list of the 83 members of Parliament,

 7     then, and there you will see.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I tender this intercept.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1110, Your Honours.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I've concluded.

12             Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Tieger, one housekeeping matter.

15             You are minded to tender all those exhibits designated as

16     associated exhibits?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber had the opportunity to go through those

19     items, and there are certain items, mainly intercepts, which are, in the

20     view of the Chamber, not forming an indispensable or inseparable part of

21     the witness transcript.  So I will give you the numbers.  Those are --

22     there are several:  20992, 30170, 30341, 30651, 30656, 30695, 30705,

23     30738, 30798, 30813, and 30833.  Those intercepts were not played during

24     the testimony of Mr. Mandic.  Give me a minute.  Those were simply

25     admitted based upon the agreement of the parties, and the witness did not

Page 4692

 1     testify to this in the courtroom.  And what the witness did was he

 2     authenticated a number of intercepts during his interview with the

 3     Prosecution.  So in the Chamber's view, it does not form an indispensable

 4     or inseparable part of the transcript, so if you are minded to tender

 5     them separately, you have to deal with them item by item.

 6             I note the time.  The Chamber should conclude today's hearing at

 7     quarter to 2:00, as usual, so we'll take a break now for 20 minutes.

 8             If you are minded, I would allow to go through with these items.

 9     Otherwise, Mr. Karadzic will begin his cross-examination.

10             Twenty minutes.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.40 a.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, what I forgot to tell you is that the

14     others will be admitted.  Yes.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16             In the interests of time, I'd like to direct the witness's

17     attention to only one of the proposed exhibits that the Court mentioned.

18     That's 20992.

19        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I may have devised or identified a way to expedite or

20     speed up this process.  I want to show you a particular document that was

21     created during the course of the Krajisnik case.  It will be up on screen

22     in a moment.

23             And if we could also show the witness the preceding page.

24             Mr. Mandic, although this is in English, I know on the subsequent

25     page you'll be able to identify the names in Latin script, but I thought

Page 4693

 1     it helpful to read to you this portion which indicates:

 2             "On October 1st, 2004, Momcilo Mandic listened to the following

 3     intercepted telephone conversations and identified voices of the

 4     participants as indicated below."

 5             And then if we could move to the next page.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  In the e-court, this is page 1.  The previous one is

 7     page 2.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   And this indicates a number of intercepted telephone

10     conversations, Mr. Mandic, including some of which you had an opportunity

11     to listen to during the course of your testimony over the last few days.

12             The headings are:  The date of the conversation, the numbers that

13     they're identified by in both B/C/S and English, the voices which were

14     ID'd, and then, finally, the last heading is the interview transcript

15     reference, that is, the portion of the interview in which you

16     participated during which you identified those intercepts, according to

17     this.

18             So I simply wanted to confirm with you that you participated in a

19     process, prior to your testimony in the Krajisnik case, during which you

20     listened to intercepted telephone conversations and identified the

21     voices.

22        A.   Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

24             Your Honour, I would tender this document, and we will be in a

25     position, therefore, I hope, to use it to the extent that some of these

Page 4694

 1     conversations may play a role in a subsequent submission following the

 2     appearance of a further submission related to the intercepts.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So you're minded to tender only this document?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't asked Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson as to

 6     the other associated exhibit as well as this one.

 7             Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  No objection.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  They will be admitted, and the exhibit number will

10     be circulated to the parties by the Registrar in due course.

11             Very well, Mr. Tieger.

12             Mr. Karadzic, please, let's begin your cross-examination.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Minister.

16        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

17        Q.   With the permission of the Court, I would like to express my

18     compassion to you because of all the suffering you underwent on account

19     of me, as did my family and friends, and many other persons who I don't

20     even know, but they did suffer on my account.  So please accept my

21     apology because of what others did to you.

22        A.   I accept that with pleasure.

23        Q.   In the beginning, on transcript page 404 -- or, rather, 4404, you

24     say, on line 15:

25             [In English] "In 2003, I was suspected of aiding and abetting and

Page 4695

 1     hiding Dr. Karadzic.  I spent five months because of that in a solitary

 2     confinement cell in Belgrade, and none of my family members could visit

 3     me."

 4             [Interpretation] That's what you said; isn't that right?

 5        A.   Correct, Mr. President.  No one was allowed to visit me, except

 6     for investigators from The Hague Tribunal, who came to the district

 7     prison in Bacvanska Street.  They took me to separate rooms and they

 8     asked me about your health, your place of residence, who was financing

 9     you, and everything else.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Further on, on page 4405, you said:

11             [In English] " ... that I was kidnapped as a citizen of

12     Montenegro and transferred, in the space of two hours, to at prison in

13     Sarajevo, without any extradition proceedings or anything else."

14             [Interpretation] Further on, same page:

15             [In English] "These operatives, the investigators, told me that I

16     would be taken to court in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that the

17     prosecutor of the BiH Court would raise an indictment against me, and

18     that I would be sentenced to a prison term of eight years.  When I said

19     that they had no grounds for filing a lawsuit against me, they said that

20     they would find grounds and that wasn't important."

21             [Interpretation] That's what these investigators of the OTP said

22     to you; right?

23        A.   Mr. President, they kept all of their promises.  As a citizen of

24     the state of Montenegro, I was kidnapped without any proceedings

25     whatsoever, extradition proceedings, nothing.  I was kidnapped from my

Page 4696

 1     apartment and taken across the border.  So I was met by Mr. Rattel at the

 2     border.  He is one of the associates of The Hague OTP.  Then I was at the

 3     Central Prison.  Then I was taken to the detention unit of the BH Court.

 4             In the evening, as confirmed by the president of that Court, I

 5     was taken out by investigators, or, rather, operatives of the OTP from

 6     The Hague.  Andan [phoen], Dragan, was with them then, the then chief of

 7     the Serb police.  Again, they asked me about you, your health, your

 8     residence, everything else.  And they said to me then that if I

 9     co-operate, that I would be back home very soon; if not, they would find

10     some kind of indictment to issue against me.  They would convict me, they

11     would issue an indictment for war crimes.  And I said, You have no

12     grounds for any of that.

13             I was here as a suspect several times.  I think that Mr. Tieger

14     was in charge of that investigation.  My file was archived as one where

15     there were no grounds to prosecute.

16             In the evening, they kept all their promises.

17             Privredna Banka is a bank that I own, and there was this case in

18     that connection.  Allegedly, that bank gave credit to some entities that

19     were financing you.

20             I was also indicted -- actually, I think that I'm the only man

21     who was officially indicted for aiding and abetting suspects and accused

22     persons by The Hague.

23             I was freed of all charges because Toby Robinson gave false

24     testimony.  She appeared as an expert witness.  I was charged because of

25     these credits.  Once I had served two-thirds of my sentence, it was

Page 4697

 1     established that that was nonexistent, that all of this had been stage

 2     managed.  However, you know, Mr. President, that in Bosnia-Herzegovina US

 3     citizens have immunity and they cannot be prosecuted, not even for

 4     perjury.  Ms. Robinson actually took some money from my bank as well, and

 5     she went to Dallas, Texas.

 6             There is another thing I have to say.  The then high

 7     representative of the European Union for Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 8     Mr. Schwarz-Schilling on a Friday, extended Toby Robinson's term as

 9     provisional manager of my bank for an indefinite period of time.

10     Sreten Jovic, who was then chief of police at the level of BH, and

11     Sinisa Karan [phoen], brought documentation concerning all the mis-doings

12     of that witness.  I assume that Mr. Schwarz-Schilling first consulted

13     Bonn, his government, that is.  He thanked Toby Robinson for her

14     co-operation, and she went back to the United States in an express

15     manner.

16             These are the people who detained me, turned me into a

17     controversial businessman, whatever else, all of that because the

18     suspicion was that I was helping you hide and that I was taking care of

19     you and your health.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             May I be allowed --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, I understand those are all important to

23     you, but the accused has only a limited time, so could you be brief in

24     your answers.

25             And both of you are speaking the same language, so I would like

Page 4698

 1     you to bear in mind to put a pause between the question and answers.

 2             Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I do apologise.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             May I be allowed to put to the Trial Chamber what kind of

 6     lawlessness we can live in?  It is not only the high representative there

 7     who is authorised to do whatever --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Come to your relevant question.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that they put

10     it well.  If you don't do anything, you are given an eight-year term, and

11     if you did something, then you get ten years in prison.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Did you manage to complain to Mr. Tieger in any way?  Wasn't he

14     in charge of investigations in that case?

15        A.   No.  As far as Sarajevo and Bosnia, Mr. Tieger never showed up.

16     I did not have any contact with him.  However, there were investigators

17     from The Hague Tribunal there, or, rather -- yes, the OTP.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to try to put questions that will allow

19     for brief yes-or-no answers, for a while, at least.

20             In the Krajisnik case, did you have similar pressure exerted

21     against you, and did you testify under such pressure; yes or no?

22        A.   Mr. President, at the time, I was a suspect, I was a war crimes

23     suspect.  And, of course, Mr. Tieger's associates, Milford, I think the

24     person's name was, and there were two of them, they kept notifying me of

25     that, that I am a suspect, that I will probably be indicted, that I

Page 4699

 1     should watch what I'm saying.  However, Mr. Tieger did his job, he was

 2     professional, he was fair, but he had these associates who were very

 3     aggressive and who kept putting it to me that I would probably be accused

 4     here.  That was in 2004, after I had left solitary confinement in

 5     Belgrade.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You were freed of all charges in the Bosnian Court

 7     for war crimes?

 8        A.   Everything happened in accordance with the promises the

 9     investigators gave me.  They said that I would be indicted, but that I

10     would not be convicted.  And that's what happened.  I think that I was

11     also charged with crimes against humanity and, yes, it was a final

12     judgement.

13        Q.   We have to take these little breaks, we have to make these little

14     breaks.

15             Now, I want to put something else to you, in addition to that

16     pressure under which you testified in the Krajisnik case.  We have

17     admitted that transcript.

18             On the 15th of December, 2004, Mr. Stewart said:

19             [In English] "We have examined important witnesses, in our

20     submission, in other [indiscernible].  We have done our best not to make

21     that too obvious."

22             [Interpretation] You testified on the 23rd of November, up until

23     the 10th of December, 2004.  Obviously, that has to do with you as well.

24     Isn't that right?

25        A.   As far as I remember, I testified at that time.  As for these

Page 4700

 1     details, Mr. President, I really cannot recall.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Further on, on the 28th of February, 2005,

 3     Ms. Lucas [phoen] said:

 4             [In English] "With witnesses that go beyond the crime base into

 5     the critical linkage area, and this is the area, of course, in which the

 6     agreed-facts process broke down, the fact that we have not had a

 7     comprehensive reading and analysis of the relevant and potentially

 8     relevant documents means that our cross-examination in the Prosecution

 9     case is hampered."

10             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly move into closed

12     session?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall I hear you before we go into private session,

14     Mr. Tieger?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             I mean, the accused is inquiring about statements made by counsel

17     after the appearance of this witness.  This will call for -- not only is

18     it now calling for various forms of speculation, but its relevance to

19     this witness's testimony has not been made out, and I would object.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Tieger's observations, in my

21     judgement, are absolutely accurate.  Mr. Mandic may have issues that he

22     wishes to air, but your time is limited and these are not matters that go

23     to the indictment against you.

24             And then the question for the witness:  Mr. Mandic, are you

25     saying that your testimony in Krajisnik was inaccurate?

Page 4701

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  What I knew and

 2     what I said was correct in the Krajisnik case.  It was the truth.  That

 3     was in 2004.  I think it was the second half of 2004.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I should like to

 5     make a nexus with the last testimony of Mr. Mandic's which is obviously

 6     not associated with these pressures brought to bear upon him in the

 7     Krajisnik case.  So I'm going beyond those pressures and the context in

 8     the Krajisnik case, because Mr. Mandic was not all that precise always

 9     then.  That is as far as that is concerned.  If you do not want to hear

10     what Steward said in closed session in the Krajisnik case, that is okay,

11     but please do tell me whether that is the case.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll hear the case.

13             We'll go into private session, and let's see what the question

14     is.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4702

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Mandic, did you notice any difference in cross-examinations

10     in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case relative to the cross-examination in

11     the Krajisnik case?

12        A.   Could you please be more specific?

13        Q.   In view of the fact that you were no longer under duress and that

14     this Defence was more prepared than that of Krajisnik, did you notice

15     that it was more fluent and more accurate?

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I'm sorry.  That calls for --

17     first of all, it's irrelevant to the issues that this witness has to deal

18     with in respect of you.  Secondly, it calls for speculation.  Thirdly, if

19     it was allowed, it would open up such an issue that would have to be the

20     subject of satellite litigation, that we would be wasting weeks, if not

21     months.  So please concentrate on those matters which are relevant to the

22     indictment against you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, was that the subject you wanted to

24     address us?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, thank you.

Page 4703

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Let's conclude with this:  Would you add something to your

 3     testimony or change anything to your testimony in the Stanisic/Zupljanin

 4     case?

 5        A.   No, Mr. President, I fully stand by my assertions in the Stanisic

 6     and Zupljanin case.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             In view of the fact that this is a Court witness, the Defence

 9     proposes that this reply be also tendered under 92 ter, and this was by

10     way of introduction.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Sorry, sorry, the interpreter is unable to keep

12     up.  Could the --

13             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to follow you in

14     terms of numbers.  Do you mean to tender the evidence of Mr. Mandic in

15     the case of Zupljanin and Stanisic?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  These are D numbers, 1D --

17     under 1D that are being offered by the Defence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, as a general proposition, we, of

20     course, have no objection to the use of 92 ter when it's properly

21     perfected.  I have to note here, however, that one of the elements of a

22     92 ter submission is the review of the statement that is being tendered,

23     and that has not taken place yet.  Indeed, I'd note that in the context

24     of the 92 ter submission in Stanisic/Zupljanin, the Prosecution was

25     required to translate the entirety of the transcript.  So, again, I don't

Page 4704

 1     have objections, in principle, to the use of 92 ter by the other party,

 2     clearly, but I think it's important to note that the elements of 92 ter

 3     haven't been fulfilled here.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me.  Was the Prosecution required to

 5     translate the entirety of the transcript, I mean, in this case?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Of the Krajisnik testimony, because the witness --

 7     it wasn't clear whether the witness had listened to the entirety of the

 8     transcript, so he was sent back with the -- and the English transcript in

 9     that case was translated and provided to him for review.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Not in terms of disclosure?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, not for that purpose.  For the specific

12     purpose of review.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider the matter.  But in the

14     meantime, we can proceed.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  There's just one additional point of information.

18             If the Chamber considers it necessary that this element be

19     satisfied, we would ask that they make available the tapes of that

20     testimony, and perhaps over the weekend he could review them and then be

21     in a position next week to fulfill that requirement, if it's considered

22     to be necessary.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  My technical question would be whether the witness

24     should be put to cross-examination by the Prosecution.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  After Dr. Karadzic finishes, simply on the

Page 4705

 1     Zupljanin/Stanisic transcripts?  I don't think we would have any

 2     objection if there was any matter in those transcripts that were covered

 3     by the testimony that wasn't covered by Dr. Karadzic in his own

 4     examination.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll see.

 6             Let's proceed.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Just for the record, Your Honour, the Defence has

 8     those audios.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it is

10     inappropriate, but may I?

11             I was given by Ms. Korner a translation of my testimony in the

12     Krajisnik case, and it jogged my memory.  That was six years ago.  As

13     regards the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, there is no need for that,

14     because that was done a couple of months ago here and it is still fresh

15     in my memory.  So in my view, there is no need for my memory to be jogged

16     in terms of what I had said in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case.  That is

17     my personal position.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

19             And if asked, you would answer the same questions?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, definitely, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Answer the question in the same manner, I meant.

22             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   I apologise, because I'll be asking you some basic questions,

25     which I have to do for the benefit of the Chamber and the participants to

Page 4706

 1     be able to understand.

 2             Do you agree that in our system, and before the multi-party

 3     system, there had existed a legal obligation, and it was good practice

 4     that in the government there was an equal share of all the three nations

 5     in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they participated on an equal footing?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that, in a way, there always had been

 8     some dominance of one coalition over another, even in that kind of a

 9     system, even in that system?  Let me be of some assistance.  If we go

10     from Turkish times, when, as Zulfikarpasic puts it, we were a second-rate

11     nation, but the Muslims were privileged; right?

12        A.   Well, they were the majority nation, and they were in a position

13     of some dominance in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14        Q.   And after a shorter rebellion, during the time of Austro-Hungary,

15     they were also privileged?

16        A.   I cannot answer that.

17        Q.   Then I shall summarise it for you, and you can tell us what you

18     think about it.

19             During World War I, they were against the Serbs, the majority of

20     them; right?

21        A.   Yes, they were -- the Muslim nation, as such, was part of the

22     independent station of Croatia, and they also were members of the army of

23     that state which had been created by Hitler and which was in existence

24     until 1944.

25        Q.   You're talking about the Second World War?

Page 4707

 1        A.   I'm talking about the Second World War.

 2        Q.   Do you remember that after the Second World War, they were in a

 3     coalition with the Serbs, and the Croats didn't have the best of times in

 4     Bosnia and Herzegovina because they had lost the war?

 5        A.   I don't know that.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter's comment:  Could the

 7     speakers please not overlap.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please do not overlap, Mr. Mandic and Mr. Karadzic.

 9     The interpreters have a very hard time.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So you don't know that; you were a younger man?

12        A.   No, Mr. President, I don't know that.  I was on the police force

13     since age 15, and I didn't pay any attention to those kinds of things.

14     And I don't know anything about that postwar period, specifically.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that as of the late 1960s, B and H

16     was jocosely interpreted as the private store of Branko and Hamdija?  Was

17     there a dominance of the Croat and Muslim coalition in that time, the

18     late 1960s?

19        A.   I don't know about that, Mr. President.

20        Q.   And do you agree that also in that system, involved the police

21     and the judiciary and everywhere else, we had excellent professionals?

22        A.   Yes, certainly.

23        Q.   And do you agree that there were incorrect ideologically fervent

24     people who persecuted other people on an ideological basis, on

25     ideological grounds?

Page 4708

 1        A.   That was the case throughout the history of the Yugoslav peoples,

 2     including after the Second World War.

 3        Q.   Do you agree -- do you agree that in 1990, at the elections, the

 4     political system was changed from a mono-party system to a multi-party

 5     system?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you agree that the question of trust in the old personnel

 8     cadre could have been based on this ideological zealotry or

 9     inappropriateness in the previous system, or could a difference, could a

10     distinction have been made between an appropriate suitable policeman and

11     another policeman who acted on the basis of his ideological convictions?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I should like to put this to you:  If somebody from

14     the field does not agree to a certain appointment, is against it, am I

15     right if I say that the grounds for such a displeasure can be:  A, that

16     in the previous system that person was unprofessional and ideologically

17     incorrect; secondly, that that person was corrupt and associated with

18     crime; thirdly, that he was subjected or subject to manipulation by

19     Croats and Muslims; and, fourthly, that this fell into the category of

20     personal dislike or personal animosity?

21        A.   Yes, certainly.  Mr. President, in the socialist system, there

22     was an entirety service, as well as individual policemen, who were

23     actually socialism enthusiasts and who persecuted, in a way, people who

24     were religious and who thought differently, and people who thought that

25     the mono-party system, i.e., socialism, was not a good system.  And those

Page 4709

 1     people would, as a rule, be persecuted or would stand criminal trial, or

 2     would in other ways be driven from the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3             As regards these other categories that you mentioned, it is true

 4     that there were unprofessional people, corrupt people, manipulated

 5     people, that there had been personal antagonisms between the local party

 6     bosses and the people who were to remain or be appointed to these work

 7     posts that you mentioned.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So if somebody from the field asked for an

 9     appointment not to be made, we could assume that the reason for that

10     would have been one of these four grounds that I mentioned.  Do you

11     remember that we actually did not acknowledge this fourth basis, the

12     personal animosity?

13        A.   Well, I said so, and I have repeatedly stated that, at least as

14     far as you are concerned, Mr. President.  Mr. Tieger has managed to

15     present to us two intercepts over this period of a year between you and

16     me and between me and Thomas [as interpreted].  There were various

17     pressures from the field for certain appointments of certain persons to

18     be made.  I'm not only referring to the Serbian side, but also for the

19     Muslim and the Croat side.  But you never asked -- nobody ever personally

20     asked me to settle unsettled interpersonal relations before that period

21     in this way, namely, but not by not appointing such a person.  At least I

22     personally do not know of any such instance.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you perhaps, by any chance, remember that after

24     the -- immediately after the elections, I immediately proposed the

25     setting up of an expert rather than a party government in order to ease

Page 4710

 1     political tensions in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2        A.   I know that you proposed the setting up of an expert government,

 3     but when that was or whether before or after -- when after the elections,

 4     I cannot recall with precision, Mr. President, because I was at the court

 5     and I was not au courant with the political goings on.

 6        Q.   If I tell you to jog your memory the names of the persons of the

 7     Serbian Democratic Party had appointed to executive branch positions

 8     because they had one executive power, would you be able to identify them?

 9     Do you know who the ministers and the deputy ministers of the Serbs were?

10        A.   Yes, I know all the personnel structure, I know all the people,

11     because I co-operated with them throughout 1991 and in early 1992, as

12     well as later; namely, those people who became part of the Government of

13     the Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that the justice minister was

15     Ranko Nikolic, and in the previous system he was set up as allegedly

16     guilty of a corruption affair, and we gave him his job back?

17        A.   Yes, he was the justice minister of the Socialist Republic of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina and the first one in the Serbian Republic of

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20        Q.   Do you remember that he was not an SDS member?

21        A.   No, he was not a member of any party.

22        Q.   Now, I could tell you about two persons called Pejic, Momcilo and

23     Zdranko Pejic.  They are related, in a way.  Momcilo was also a minister

24     in one of the governments of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25        A.   Yes, in the Government of the Socialist Republic of

Page 4711

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Momcilo Pejic was not a member of any party, and he

 2     was the finance minister of the government before the elections.

 3        Q.   We also appointed him finance minister?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you agree that Zdranko Pejic, also as an expert and as an

 6     economist, was part of the Cabinet?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you agree that none of these people, not Miodrag Simovic, nor

 9     the minister of agriculture and forestry, Nadazdin, nor the deputy health

10     minister, Dr. Tatjana Starevic, Medan, none of the others were SDS

11     members, apart from the late Velibor Ostojic?

12        A.   Well, to begin with myself, I was never a member of the SDS, and

13     I was elected as police minister for the Serbian people.  And most of

14     these people had no party affiliation in the first multi-party

15     government.

16        Q.   You have already confirmed that you and I did not know each other

17     before, and do you know that I didn't know Zepinic or Simovic, either,

18     before the government was formed?

19        A.   I cannot answer to that.  But as far as I'm concerned, I saw you

20     for the first time in my life, I believe, in early 1991, when

21     Vito Zepinic brought me to the party offices to nominate me for this

22     position.

23        Q.   Do you agree that none of the regional police chiefs was a party

24     member and I didn't know them personally?

25        A.   If you remember, at our first meeting you told me, You are

Page 4712

 1     Mr. Mandic, after the introductions, You are a judge?  I answered, Yes.

 2     And you said, Please, if you come to occupy that post, please, together

 3     with Zepinic, appoint only professional policemen who are of Serb

 4     ethnicity and fitting for that post.  That remains etched in my memory

 5     because that was my first encounter with you.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Who are of Serb

 7     ethnicity and are fitting for the post that is allocated to the Serb

 8     community.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I don't know if you are aware of the method of appointment of

11     Mr. Zupljanin, of the way he was appointed.  There had been a

12     longstanding crisis there.  Zupljanin and I attended together a meeting,

13     and most of the SDS was in favour of an honourable judge.  And I asked,

14     Who was the more professional of the two?  And after hearing the answer,

15     I chose Zupljanin.

16        A.   No, I didn't know that, but I know it was at Zepinic's proposal

17     that the chief of police in Banja Luka was appointed, Mr. Zupljanin.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that I was exposed to critique and

19     pressure by party members, who said that the party had won power at the

20     elections, but I didn't give party members power, favouring experts?

21        A.   Yes.  I was also criticised for appointing Muslims and some of my

22     Serbs, as they said in the police, favouring them over various nominees

23     by various national parties, and they were very rough in their insistence

24     that party people come to the police.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the Serbian Democratic Party did not take the

Page 4713

 1     chance to take over any of their power ministries, as they called them,

 2     the Ministry of the Interior and the Defence Ministry; we chose, instead,

 3     the Finance Ministry, the Ministry of Information, the Ministry of

 4     Agriculture, Water Management and Forestry?  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   Of course.  The Defence Ministry was taken by the Croats, as

 6     coalition parties, and the minister was Jerko Doko.  The minister of

 7     police went to the majority party, the Muslim party.  Alija Delimustafic

 8     was the minister of police.  And the Finance Ministry was headed by Pejic

 9     and others, who had taken over from the previous regime, who were experts

10     and who continued in their jobs.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that it was a very good custom, even

12     during Socialist times, and also under the law and under the inter-party

13     agreement, it was agreed that senior posts be allocated in such a way

14     that if post number 1 in a certain field goes to one party, then the post

15     number 2 goes to the second majority party?

16        A.   Well, I tried to explain that to Mr. Tieger.  If, let's say, the

17     Serbs were in the majority in a certain place, the chief of police would

18     be a Serb.  And if the second majority community was Croat, then a Croat

19     would be man number 2, that is, police commander in that place.

20        Q.   In one of these intercepts that we are going to tender to be

21     marked for identification, I inform one of you that in Prijedor, in

22     addition to the police chief and police commander, posts that belonged to

23     Serbs, they had appointed a Muslim, and there was also a Muslim as

24     secretary of defence in that municipality, et cetera.  Was that a matter

25     that could be of concern to another community?  It was not only unfair,

Page 4714

 1     but it was also worrisome?

 2        A.   Could you remind me?  What was that document?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will go through documents one by

 4     one.  65 ter, please, 18004.

 5             This is a 65 ter document that should have a translation.  This

 6     is a letter from the Serbian Democratic Party, dated 7 March 1991,

 7     addressed to all municipality boards of the SDS, and the subject is "The

 8     procedure for selecting executive personnel within the competencies of

 9     republic ministries."  It says:

10             "Appointments for chiefs of the Security Services Centre and

11     commanders shall follow this procedure:  The Municipal Assembly or the

12     Executive Board of the municipality puts forward an official nomination,

13     with prior inter-party agreement, to the Ministry of the Interior, and

14     the minister -- and Vito Zepinic, deputy minister.  Please do not exert

15     pressure to appoint candidates who do not meet the requirements, and it

16     is desirable to nominate two candidates for each post."

17             And then I have a separate proposal concerning the justice

18     minister.  The appointments should be decided by the government.

19             Could the witness please see page 2.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is this consistent with what you know about the position of the

22     Serbian Democratic Party; namely, that the procedure be observed strictly

23     and that only the government could decide, and that there should be two

24     candidates for each post?

25        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, there were only three nominations made in

Page 4715

 1     the police.

 2        Q.   Yes.  At least two, but usually three.

 3             Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We don't have the translation for this

 5     document, so it will be marked for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D355, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we now get 65 ter 18554.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While we're waiting, Mr. Minister, let me inform you.  This is an

11     allocation of various executive posts in ministries between parties.  The

12     first -- I seem to be reading very fast for the interpreters.  I hope you

13     see it on the screen.  You see the post of the minister goes to the HDZ

14     in the Defence Ministry, deputy minister is from the SDA, et cetera.  But

15     what you know better is the Ministry of the Interior.

16             Can you see, from this, that we got the deputy minister post and

17     then the assistant minister for crime prevention - that was you - Zepinic

18     was a deputy minister, and then you also got -- we also got the post of

19     the assistant minister for analysis and information.  Is it the case, let

20     me ask you, that in the Ministry of the Interior, the minister is the

21     most important position?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Is the second-ranking post the chief of State Security?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you agree that we only got deputy positions for both these

Page 4716

 1     posts?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that the minister or someone in the Ministry of the

 4     Interior unlawfully abolished the post of under-secretary for state

 5     security, which was to have gone to us?

 6        A.   If you remember, Mr. President, before Mr. Kvesic's deputy was to

 7     take up his post from the ranks of the Serbian people, and it was to be

 8     Nedjo Vlaski, a man who had served in the security system in the

 9     Socialist regime, with many years of service, Branko Kvesic made a new

10     staffing system and practically deleted this post of deputy.  So the

11     Serbian Democratic Party lost this executive position, and you protested

12     against this more than once.  You wrote a series of letters, and,

13     nevertheless, Nedjo Vlaski never took up that post which was to have

14     gone, according to the inter-party agreement, to the Serbian community.

15     That is the same Branko Kvesic to whom we have listened in an intercept

16     presented by Mr. Tieger.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can this document be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, are you aware -- were you aware of this

20     document?  For example, whose handwriting is this?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is Mr. Karadzic's

22     handwriting.  I think; I'm not sure.  We had all this in the ministries

23     and in the government, this allocation of posts document, to be able to

24     know which post had to go to which community.  This is a document that

25     reflects the inter-party agreement, the coalition agreement between the

Page 4717

 1     parties that had won the elections.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Are you seeing a date in this document?  Probably

 3     the top of the document.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] January 1991.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Just two quick things, Your Honour.

 8             I think the need for the Court to intervene arose because it

 9     appears to me to be a process by which the accused tries to authenticate

10     the document and then proceeds to ask questions about it generally.

11     I think we need to -- he'll need to concentrate more on the possibility

12     of the witness doing so.

13             Secondly, I'm not aware whether there's a translation for this,

14     but beyond the procedural irregularity, I don't have an objection to the

15     document.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             We'll mark that for identification, pending translation.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D356, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you need to put the foundation

20     material to the witness so that the Chamber can understand the document,

21     what it is about.

22             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would only like to say

24     this:

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 4718

 1        Q.   Witness, does this reflect the gist of the inter-party agreement,

 2     according to which executive authorities should have acted in making

 3     appointments?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   From the viewpoint of the SDA and the HDZ, the representatives of

 6     Muslims and Croats respectively, was everything honoured?

 7        A.   As far as the Ministry of Police is concerned, yes.

 8        Q.   Were Serbs cheated out of this post of deputy under-secretary for

 9     state security by virtue of this unlawful modification of the staffing

10     system, the staffing specification?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You know well what state security meant in our system.  Could

13     that have been a reason for concern among the Serbs?

14        A.   Could you make that question a bit clearer?  Which Serbs, those

15     employed with the police, or the party, or all Serbs in general?

16        Q.   All of them, in general.  Do you agree that State Security was an

17     important branch that could control practically everything, especially

18     under the previous system?

19        A.   Yes, it was the State Security Branch, the security of the state.

20        Q.   Do you agree that this method, first post to one community, the

21     second to another community, was established to achieve democracy in the

22     control system?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can we then conclude that in the State Security Branch, this

25     mechanism of democratic control was breached by cancelling this post that

Page 4719

 1     was to have gone to the Serbs?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Could that have been a reason for concern for Serbs employed in

 4     the police, those in the party, and Serbs, in general?

 5        A.   I can't talk about the people, in general, or even the employees

 6     in the police.  I don't know.

 7        Q.   However, if things were happening as they were in Croatia, do you

 8     agree that the very roots of the secessionist armies in Slovenia,

 9     Croatia, and in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, were in the MUPs?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you agree that State Security in Bosnia and Herzegovina

12     belonged to the HDZ, was allocated to the HDZ, the representatives of the

13     Croatian people?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The Croatian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they in favour of

16     secession, and were they on the side of Croatia in the war against

17     Krajina?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   From that point of view, then, if State Security were not to have

20     that kind of control, such as deputy under-secretary for state security

21     from the ranks of the Serbs would have been, would that be a reason for

22     concern?

23        A.   Yes.  Well, for the SDS and for the leadership of the SDS, the

24     people probably didn't know about all of this.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 4720

 1             65 ter 30020.  Could we have that, please?  It is an intercept.

 2     We have to use it, although we have objections in that regard.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is the 21st of May, 1992.  This is a conversation between

 5     Mr. Zepinic and myself.  Do you agree that at that point in time, Zepinic

 6     was, by definition and in terms of the office he held, responsible for

 7     the appointment of Serb personnel to appropriate positions that belonged

 8     to the Serb people?

 9        A.   Yes.  Vito Zepinic was a member of the Serb Democratic Party, in

10     the Ministry of Police.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 2.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, excuse me.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Before the witness is directed to particular

15     portions of the intercept, could we have a bit more clarification of what

16     the objections are to the intercept?  We have to use it, although we have

17     objections in that regard.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Probably, he was referring to his general objections

19     he referred to in one of his earlier submissions.  Am I correct,

20     Mr. Karadzic, in so understanding?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to establish, with the

22     assistance of this document, how the realisation took place.

23             JUDGE KWON:  No, I meant your objections to the intercepts you

24     referred to in your statement.  You said:

25             "It is an intercept.  We have to use it, although we have

Page 4721

 1     objections in that regard."

 2             What objections did you refer to?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, our well-known position that

 4     was presented by Mr. Robinson as well; namely, that these intercepts,

 5     before the war, can only be used as evidence for the unfairness of the

 6     SDA that is unlawfully tapping all the conversations of Serbs, and not

 7     Muslims and Croats.  We could not get a single intercept of

 8     Alija Izetbegovic or any other party leader or state official from the

 9     Muslim side; also, Biljana Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, all the rest.  That

10     is to say, if they are taken as evidence, they can only be taken as

11     evidence proving that the Serb side was under unlawful pressure there.

12     But they were listening in, weren't they?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, are you satisfied?

14             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Let's proceed.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, Mr. Mandic did

18     not say that Vito Zepinic was a member of the Serb Democratic Party.  He

19     was not a member of the Serb Democratic Party.  The witness did not say

20     that.  He was the personnel officer.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   He took care of that to see that the inter-party agreements are

23     honoured properly on the Serb side?

24        A.   Yes, he took care of the personnel policy on behalf of the SDS in

25     the Ministry of the Police.

Page 4722

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We will go back to see who the candidates were and

 2     according to which criteria.

 3             Can we now have page 2 of this document.  In Serbian, I see it --

 4     ah, I see, yes.  I'm not sure that the English and Serbian versions are

 5     the same.

 6             What I'm saying here is:

 7             "What about the special unit?"

 8             In Serbian, it is the first box on this page.  Obviously, I had

 9     realised that something was being changed in the special unit.  And

10     further down, it says:

11             "If they got the police command, then we would have to get the

12     command of the special unit."

13             Isn't that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   A bit further down, I'm expressing my concern because in

16     Vojkovici -- Vojkovici is a Serb neighbourhood?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   I'm saying that some people in civilian clothes are snooping

19     around Vojkovici, there are 20 of them, and it is obvious that they are

20     policeman, but in civilian clothes.  Zepinic says:

21             "Para-state?"

22             I say:

23             "I don't know whether it is para-state.  I'm afraid it is not the

24     police, because there seems to be no distinction there ."

25             Did you notice that immediately after the elections, there was

Page 4723

 1     less and less of a distinction between the SDA and the police?

 2        A.   In the Ministry of Police, the chief of the uniform police was

 3     from the ranks of the Muslim people.  Ex officio, he was the superior of

 4     the special unit of the MUP.

 5        Q.   At that point in time, was a Croat, Vikic, the commander of this

 6     special unit?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Wouldn't it be proper, if the chief of the police is a Muslim,

 9     that the head of that unit should be a Serb?

10        A.   I cannot answer that, Mr. President, because Vito Zepinic was in

11     charge of personnel policy at the time and I was not really very

12     well-versed, as far as these discussions were concerned at ministry

13     level, in terms of pursuing personnel policy within the Ministry of

14     Police.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we have the next page, please, this entire conversation.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Minister, if you see that, it has to do with my

19     dissatisfaction over the way in which Vito Zepinic is carrying out the

20     inter-party agreement, and I'm asking him why there are some people who

21     the people from local level do not want.  Do you see that?  It is here on

22     this page, and I am asking about some Maletic, and so on and so forth.

23     Do you agree that the most frequent problem was that at local level they

24     did not want anyone who had been persecuting them in the previous system

25     unlawfully?

Page 4724

 1        A.   I think, Mr. President, that we took care of that when we

 2     discussed those four positions; lack of corruption, manipulation, and so

 3     on.  Right now, you are talking about those individuals who persecuted

 4     Serbs who were not eligible in the times of socialism.  You are

 5     presenting that to Zepinic, who is explaining certain things to you and

 6     the way in which he sees the election of these people.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have page 5 in English.  I

 8     believe that in Serbian, it would be page 4.  Yes, it is page 4 in

 9     Serbian.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And what I say here is:

12             "First there is a Croat, I think, and the second one, too.

13     Please, let us take that, because they have the police command, they have

14     this Hebib.  We should at least take that so that our people can be sure

15     that nothing illegal would be done.  We are not afraid of anything that

16     is legal, but we are afraid that something illegal would be done."

17             Have you found that particular box?

18        A.   You've just reminded me, Mr. President.  The commander of the

19     brigade of the special unit was a Croat.  The commander of the special

20     unit was also a Croat.

21        Q.   Yes, you found that box.  So what we are asking for is democratic

22     control, that it is impossible for the knife and the bread to be in the

23     same hand, as we say in our part of the world; that is to say, that the

24     number-one and number-two man cannot be from the ranks of the same

25     people?

Page 4725

 1        A.   Yes, that was insisted upon.

 2        Q.   And the next box is what I am saying:

 3             "And then -- and then when we have our own man there, then he can

 4     guarantee that there will be nothing illegal.  And, finally, it is only

 5     fair that it is equal everywhere.  If our man is in charge, they will

 6     have a deputy, and if it is theirs, we will have the deputy, and that

 7     will be okay.  Okay, you're going to take care of that."

 8             And so on and so forth.

 9             Do you agree that for a considerable amount of time, we believed

10     that Mr. Zepinic would take care of this, and finally it turned out that

11     we were unsatisfied because Mr. Zepinic was subject to manipulation,

12     people on the ground were dissatisfied?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can this document be admitted; for identification, I mean.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will do so.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be MFI D357.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2019, could we have that, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we're waiting for that, Mr. Mandic, let me ask you:  Do you

21     recall that the government was established sometime towards the end of

22     January 1991?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you know, since we were in a position to know, that already

25     in February 1991 a decision had been passed to establish a council for

Page 4726

 1     the defence of Muslims attached to the SDA?

 2        A.   No, Mr. President, I was not aware of that.

 3        Q.   Did you know that it started functioning already in the month of

 4     June?

 5        A.   That, I did know.

 6        Q.   Let us take care of this first.  Do you recall the document?  We

 7     don't have the Serbian version on our screen.  I don't have it either.

 8     It's the 4th of June, 1991.  The Ministry of the Interior is sending this

 9     document to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina, to the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional

11     Order.  Do you remember that Mrs. Plavsic was chairman of this counsel?

12        A.   Yes, Ms. Biljana Plavsic was president of the Council for the

13     Protection of the Constitutional Order of the Socialist Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have this document in B/C/S,

16     Your Honours?  I don't have it, but you can read it out, and then you're

17     going to realise what it's all about.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is a report on the arrest of members of the Croatian MUP.

20     It's from 1992, actually, but -- all of it is 1991, the 18th of May,

21     1991.  And on the 4th of June, 1991, you are writing this accompanying

22     letter to the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order,

23     when some men from the Croatian MUP were arrested, those who were

24     transporting weapons through Bosansko Grahovo.  Do you remember that?

25        A.   Yes, weapons and Motorolas.

Page 4727

 1        Q.   Can you tell us briefly what this incident was all about?

 2        A.   I think that the Public Security Station in Bosansko Grahovo

 3     stopped a convoy that was transporting weapons across the territory of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Republic of Croatia.  There were rifles there,

 5     ammunition, and Motorolas.  I am informing Ms. Biljana Plavsic about

 6     that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to read it out in English:

 8             [In English] "With regard to your request in letter strictly

 9     confidential number," so-and-so, "the 3rd of June, 1991, we are sending

10     you the report of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina of 18th May of 1991 on the arrest of members of the MUP of

12     Republic of Croatia by the staff of Bosansko Grahovo Station -- Public

13     Security Station, and the report of 27th of May, 1991, on the working

14     meeting at which the question of ordering the detention and extending the

15     detention of the three policemen from the Croatian MUP was reviewed."

16             [Interpretation] That's all Ms. Plavsic --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry to interrupt, and I don't know how long

19     Dr. Karadzic intends to spend with this document, but we can certainly

20     provide a hard copy of the -- obviously, there's a B/C/S for this

21     document.  It was created in B/C/S.  We can provide a hard copy to be put

22     on the ELMO or e-mail it.  But if he's going to read portions of it, that

23     would obviously be quicker.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't mean to go into detail,

Page 4728

 1     but it is going to be of interest to the participants.  I would just like

 2     to have this confirmed.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did Ms. Plavsic ask you, on the 3rd of June, to inform her, as

 5     head of the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order, about

 6     this incident, and that on the 4th of June, you sent this letter with a

 7     report attached?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can this be admitted?  If the witness wishes to refresh his

11     memory, he can have a look at the Serbian version, but I'm not going to

12     discuss it in depth.

13             JUDGE KWON:  The date -- rather, the year on the second page

14     should be a typo, Mr. Mandic.  It should read "1991," I take it.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right.

16             JUDGE KWON:  It was sent in 1991, Mr. Mandic; is it correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Am I right when I say that this was before the outbreak of

21     conflicts in Croatia?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can this be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 4729

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D358.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time, Mr. Karadzic.  If it's convenient,

 3     we'll have a break now for half an hour.

 4             Yes, Mr. Tieger, do you have something?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Just very quickly, Your Honour, with regard to the

 6     92 ter issue related to Stanisic/Zupljanin.

 7             Obviously, I have no interest in being obstructive.  Clearly,

 8     when you look at 92 ter -- well, I shouldn't say "clearly."  Testimony

 9     transcribed and taken in open court presents somewhat different issues

10     than statements.  Nevertheless, we have the issues presented.  It would

11     have been a bit helpful if we'd been notified in advance so we could give

12     some thought to that, but I'm not precluding the possibility that the

13     Prosecution will get back with a position accommodating to the Defence.

14     But I think we need a moment -- at least some opportunity to consider it,

15     in light of the Rules.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Since you raised this, I was about to raise it after

17     the recess, but given the page numbers are over 1.000, so instead of

18     tendering the whole transcript in Stanisic/Zupljanin, I'm minded to tell

19     the accused to identify specific parts of the transcript that he would

20     wish to have admitted, whether the purpose of tendering is either to show

21     the inconsistency of his statement or adding some parts to the evidence.

22             With that, we'll have a break for half an hour.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you seemed to have something to say

Page 4730

 1     when I said about the transcripts of this witness in Stanisic and

 2     Zupljanin trial.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  That is about

 4     440 pages.  If that is much, then I can go through that transcript and we

 5     can have it confirmed by the witness.  But I would, in that case, need an

 6     additional day for my examination.  If I do get that day, if it is easier

 7     for the Chamber so that we do not encumber the entire case file, we can

 8     also proceed in that way, but I do have to have that additional time.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  While you can go along with the parts that you wish

10     to put to the witness, please let us know those specific page numbers you

11     have in mind, so then we can have a look and then can indicate in which

12     way we should proceed.  So if you could let the Chamber know, in writing

13     or even through e-mail, whatever, or whatever means you find appropriate.

14     Let us know the page numbers you -- specific page numbers you referred

15     to, as 400 pages; be it 400 or 300, let us know.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If we would not go

17     through it in this way, it would be entire testimony of Mr. Mandic.  But

18     if we do get this time, we can go through it and clarify some points

19     which the witness will then, on his part, corroborate or deny.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't mean necessarily that you have to go

21     through each item in order to tender them.  What I told you, let the

22     Chamber know in advance what page numbers you are minded to tender.

23             Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             If I remember correctly, this document has been admitted, the one

Page 4731

 1     of the 4th of June, 1991.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it has been admitted as Exhibit D358.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can we now have 1D1891.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Minister, I believe that you -- at least as much as we knew

 7     about the clandestine actions of the Party of Democratic Action, but this

 8     is no secret; namely, on the 11th of June, in Sarajevo, was formed the

 9     SDA National Defence Council.  Did you confirm that just a while ago?

10        A.   Yes, I know that.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should like to see that document,

12     1D -- yes, that is it.  I don't know whether we have the translation.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is that that document?

15        A.   Yes.  The then general-secretary of the Party of Democratic

16     Action is, in the signature line, Hasan Cengic.

17        Q.   When I said that the link between the SDA and the police was

18     being lost, I was largely referring to, actually, Mr. Hasan Cengic.  Do

19     you know that Mr. Hasan Cengic is a minister of the faith, a hodja by

20     profession?

21        A.   Mr. President, I know everything about Mr. Hasan Cengic.  I

22     worked in the service for a long time.  I know that Mr. Cengic first

23     completed the medresa and then the Theological Faculty either in Algeria

24     or IN Iran.  I cannot remember exactly.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that he was part of the group that,

Page 4732

 1     together with Alija Izetbegovic, was convicted by the

 2     Bosnian-Herzegovinian Court in 1983 of association on the basis of the

 3     Islamic Declaration?

 4        A.   He was a member of this group which was called the Young Muslims,

 5     and he was tried and convicted, together with Mr. Izetbegovic, in the

 6     1980s.

 7        Q.   Do you know that his father, Halid, as early as in the -- as in

 8     1990, before the elections, had formed the first unit of the

 9     Patriotic League in Foca and in the mosque in Ustikolina?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   But do you know that his father was Halid, and that later he was

12     the chief logistics officer of the BH Army?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we will see another document.

15             Can this be admitted into evidence?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D359.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D1885.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Until that is shown on the screen, could I ask you this:  Would

21     it be fair to say -- well, we saw that Ms. Plavsic was the president of

22     the Council for the Protection of The constitutional Order, but do you

23     agree that the president of the Presidency is, by virtue of his office,

24     the president of the Council for the Defence of the Republic?

25        A.   Yes, that is a constitutional category.

Page 4733

 1        Q.   Yes.  And was it Mr. Izetbegovic?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What would you say if I told you that Mr. Izetbegovic, in

 4     addition to being the president of the council for the defence of the

 5     entire republic, of -- for all the three nations, that is, becomes the

 6     president of the semi-legal clandestine council for the defence of just

 7     the Muslims?  Whom should he arrest, I mean Mr. Izetbegovic, in such a

 8     role?

 9        A.   I'm a witness here, Mr. President.  I'm not an expert.  When you

10     call me as an expert, I can give you an answer to that question.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Is this that document -- there was another page in

12     front.  I don't know why it is missing right now.

13             Can you take a look at this cover letter.  Can you actually read

14     it aloud, and can you comment on it?

15        A.   "In keeping with the joint agreement of authorised

16     representatives of the MUP of the SR B&H and the MUP of the Republic of

17     Croatia and the instructions on the manner of employing candidates at the

18     Education Centre in the Republic of Croatia MUP, the Party of Democratic

19     Action, Sarajevo, recommends the above-named candidates to attend a

20     course at your centre.

21             "Yours faithfully, acting SDA secretary, Hasan Cengic."

22             This is Mirsad Lukovic.  The person in question is

23     Mirsad Lukovic.

24        Q.   He signed on his behalf?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 4734

 1        Q.   So, actually, Mirsad Lukovic is the person being assigned to the

 2     course, the name of the candidate?

 3        A.   Yes, the name of the candidate is Mirsad Lukovic, but somebody

 4     signed on behalf -- the letter on behalf of Hasan Cengic, the SDA

 5     secretary.

 6        Q.   Do you now see -- this is the basic document, but we have 80 such

 7     applications for training in Croatia.  Did there exist appropriate

 8     training in Bosnia-Herzegovina for training the police?

 9        A.   In Bosnia and Herzegovina, there existed a number of places where

10     the police were trained.  Well, there was a training centre at Vraca

11     where the regular secondary school cadets attended, and of the senior

12     schools as well.  And there were different courses for forensic

13     technicians, for policemen, for anti-sabotage purposes and units, and

14     such, so on and so forth.  Also, there was a centre, a training centre,

15     in Tarcin, in Banja Luka, in Bihac, in Mostar, and I believe also one in

16     Doboj.  That is as far as training courses for policemen are concerned,

17     but I'm not quite certain.

18        Q.   Thank you.  To clarify it for the Chamber, these courses were for

19     adults who had already had some educational backgrounds and were only

20     being additionally trained to be policemen; is that right?

21        A.   These were the so-called specialist courses where people applied

22     who had done their military service, who had completed one of the

23     specialised secondary schools, if there were courses for policemen, for

24     forensic technicians, for counter-sabotage defence, et cetera.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In contrast to that, cadets would attend the

Page 4735

 1     Secondary Police School?

 2        A.   Yes.  Well, pupils, cadets like I, myself, was, who attended for

 3     the four-year school, police school, secondary school at Vrace, from 815

 4     to 19 mainly.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  These people that the SDA was assigning to Croatia

 6     for training, were they cadets or were they mature people of age who were

 7     to undergo this training for additional training, additional education?

 8        A.   These were courses for probationers, for apprentice policemen, as

 9     it were, meaning that the already-formed persons attended these courses.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see another cover letter on

11     the ELMO, please, from the same field.  It ought to be in e-court, but we

12     cannot find it.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can I ask you to read this one out too?

15        A.   "Instruction for assigning candidates to the training centre of

16     the Republic of Croatia, 11th July.  To the Executive Board of the SDA,

17     to the president.

18             "Enclosed, we are attaching a copy of instructions on the manner

19     of admitting -- of employing policemen in the MUP of the

20     Republic of Croatia, with your obligation being to acquaint your

21     candidates with these instructions.  It is the duty of every candidate to

22     take along a letter of recommendation by the party, which we are

23     attaching here; also, his birth certificate, marriage certificate, and

24     the birth certificates for family candidates, as well as a certificate on

25     having completed a military service, a certificate of a clean police

Page 4736

 1     record, no prior convictions, a certificate of educational background and

 2     employment record and working booklet, if any, and, if they also should

 3     pass, a certificate on a medical checkup."

 4             And below it is the address of the Educational Centre in the

 5     Republic of Croatia.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: We do not have it on the

 7     screen.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hasan Cengic is in the signature,

 9     but also signed by somebody else on his behalf, and a greeting.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   But this is a party document, like all the instructions in

12     general are?

13        A.   Yes, it is by the Party of Democratic Action.

14        Q.   Would you say that there was no reason whatsoever for the party

15     to be assigning people to be trained, the policemen or candidates for the

16     police force to be trained in Croatia?  It could have been done in

17     Bosnia?

18        A.   But this was without the knowledge of the Ministry of the

19     Interior, and it was without the knowledge of any state organ in the

20     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21        Q.   But you knew that, as any police would known?

22        A.   Yes, of course.  We had information about it.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we have this document admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, can I be a bit more clear?  Can I be

Page 4737

 1     clearer?  You said that was done without the knowledge of the Ministry of

 2     the Interior, and then you said you have -- you had had information about

 3     this?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Ministry of the

 5     Interior in Bosnia and Herzegovina had all its training centres and

 6     educational centres in which all profiles of policemen were trained,

 7     starting with specialist courses and through secondary schools up to

 8     universities.  We had information from the field that in a clandestine

 9     fashion, members of the Muslim nationality were being sent to training

10     courses in Croatia without the knowledge of the official Ministry of the

11     Interior.  This was never discussed, nor was the minister ever informed

12     officially of this, or any one of us in the ministry, the members of the

13     minister's collegium, for that matter.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are welcome, Your Honours.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Am I right when I say, then, that this was actually the formation

18     of a party police force behind the back of the regular state organ?

19        A.   Could you please rephrase your question?

20        Q.   If the Party of Democratic Action is secretly and behind their

21     backs sending -- behind the backs of the state police sending people to

22     be trained in another republic, is that an action whereby the Party of

23     Democratic Action is creating its own armed force?

24        A.   At that moment, we were not clear on what was happening.  We --

25     the non-Muslim personnel in the Ministry of the Interior, we were not

Page 4738

 1     clear on whether they were being sent to the front in Croatia under the

 2     veil of training, or was it the intention for them to be trained there

 3     and then to return to Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It was only towards the

 4     end of 1991 and early 1992 that we found out what the objective of that

 5     training had been and of assigning young Muslims to not only Croatia and

 6     Zagreb but also to other Islamic countries for such training.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will admit the previous document, i.e.,

 8     1D1885, as Exhibit D360.

 9             But I'm not sure about the status of the next document, another

10     document of similar kind.  Is it listed in 65 ter list?

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can be part of the same exhibit,

13     because this is a cover letter, in a way, explaining the documents that

14     were attached.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, the date is the same, of similar kind.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I don't object, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             So we'll mark them for identification, pending translation, given

19     the second part of the document was not translated.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             May I just inform you that this text of the instructions is the

22     same for 80-something candidates.  One was translated, and just the names

23     change.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let me ask you:  When testifying in the

Page 4739

 1     Stanisic/Zupljanin case, you had an opportunity of seeing these names of

 2     persons who were sent to Croatia.  Were all of these names Muslim?

 3        A.   Yes, for sure.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we have 1D1882, please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   While we're waiting for that, let me ask you:  Were there any

 8     Muslims who were against this, who criticised it?

 9        A.   Mr. President, that happened when these young people returned to

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina and when they were assigned to different jobs.  Then

11     certain officials, both at higher and lower levels who were of Muslim

12     ethnicity and who were not familiar with this, were actually surprised;

13     and they did not agree to having these people taken in, in spite of the

14     fact that there were trained people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Nevertheless,

15     these other persons were admitted into the Ministry of the Interior.

16     However, no one had known that these people were being trained.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D1882, please, could we have that

18     now.

19             Let me say --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Can you say whether it has been up-loaded?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it should be there.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm hearing, No, from the Court Deputy.

23             THE ACCUSED:  It should be released, I suppose.  It is -- just a

24     few seconds.

25             [Interpretation] All right.  While we're waiting for this, could

Page 4740

 1     we have 65 ter 30103.  Well, we do have the previous one, yes, 1D1882.

 2     And 1883 should be in preparation.  Yes, this is the English version.

 3     Can we have the Serbian version as well.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   May I inform you that this is a letter from the Banja Luka Centre

 6     of Security Services to Ms. Plavsic, as president of the council.  And it

 7     says up here:

 8             "To the Council for the Protection of the Constitutional Order of

 9     the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

10             Let's not read all of it.  Could you read the last paragraph down

11     here, and then let's move on to the next page.

12             Can you see this in Serbian?  It starts with the words "Da se"?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   Can you read that, and then we'll move on to the next page.

15        A.   You mean, "On Monday, the 22nd of July ..."  should I start from

16     there?

17        Q.   Well, okay.

18        A.   "On Monday, the 22nd of July, 1991, I was at a meeting in the

19     Ministry, and I could not believe my eyes when I received the survey of

20     the staffing system.  It was not so much the content that amazed me as

21     the appearance, or, to be more precise, the colour in which it was

22     printed.  It is a well-known fact that the colour of police equipment is

23     blue, so why, then, is green suddenly being introduced in official

24     correspondence?  And is this a sign of the dominance of Muslims in this

25     important ministry?  All of this was the doing of two assistant

Page 4741

 1     ministers: assistant minister for the police, Mr. Avdo Hebib, and

 2     assistant minister for legal and administrative matters and foreign

 3     nationals, Mr. Hilmo Selimovic.

 4             "That attempts were being made to create a Muslim army out of

 5     this Ministry is also apparent from --"

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in

 7     Serbian.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... from this ministry is also

 9     apparent from the most recent police training course that began on the

10     22nd of July, 1991.  Our recommendation was that if a course had to be

11     organised, then, in accordance with the shortfall in numbers on the basis

12     of ethnicity, the course should accept a larger number of Serbs from the

13     Republic of Croatia who work in the security services there and are being

14     subjected to the most perfidious methods, by means of which they are

15     being driven out of the service.  This would have significantly reduced

16     the expenses of the course.  However, a very perfidious game is being

17     played over the admission of these course students.  First,

18     300 candidates were recommended, and then 400 candidates.  We have

19     information to the effect that a significant number of the course

20     students are Muslims from Sandzak (around 80 per cent) ... "

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Next paragraph.

23        A.   "... that some ethnic Muslims are being sent in an organised way

24     to a course in the MUP of the Republic of Croatia.  It is obvious from

25     the Official Note that some ethnic Muslims are being sent in an organised

Page 4742

 1     way to --"

 2        Q.   Let me just ask you, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber:  Where

 3     is Sandzak?

 4        A.   In the Republic of Serbia.  It is the district of Raska.

 5        Q.   Is it rather customary to say Sandzaklija in Bosnia and Sarajevo,

 6     particularly?

 7        A.   That is the name that is used for Muslims who come from the

 8     district of Raska and who live in Sarajevo.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we have this document admitted, and then could we call

11     up 1883.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be exhibited as -- admitted as

13     Exhibit D361.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Yes, now we have this document, that the chief of the Banja Luka

16     Security Services is speaking.  So this is an official note.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you please have a look at it?  There's no need to read it

19     out.  Please don't read the names out.  Let these persons remain

20     anonymous, because that is what was intended.  But, anyway, everyone can

21     see it from the document.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could it please not be displayed

23     to the public.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We see here that a police operative found out -- namely, that

Page 4743

 1     this gentleman informed him that Isak Gunic, nicknamed Isak, was going as

 2     an SDA member to a course that is organised in Zagreb, that he was going

 3     to be trained in Zagreb for two months, that he would be receiving a

 4     salary there of six and a half thousand dinars, and that this was being

 5     financed by the Arab Emirates.  And then Gunic also showed them

 6     questionnaires that they were to supposed to fill out when going to

 7     Zagreb.  This gentleman says the SDA was written in the title of the

 8     questionnaires and that the questionnaires were signed by Hasan Cengic.

 9     This Muslim said that he refused to go, and he informed his colleague,

10     this policeman, who compiled this Official Note.

11             Is this in keeping with what you found out unofficially about

12     this illegal activity of the Party of Democratic Action?

13        A.   This was one of the ways in which we found out about the fact

14     that these young persons of Muslim ethnicity were being sent for training

15     to the Republic of Croatia.  I explained that a moment ago to the

16     Honourable Trial Chamber.

17        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let me ask you:  If the Party of Democratic Action is

18     preparing a secret police, a secret armed force, who would be their

19     assumed adversary?

20        A.   The Serbs.

21        Q.   And possibly the JNA; right?

22        A.   As a people, the Serbs.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can this be admitted into evidence?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 4744

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D362.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 30103.

 3     30103.

 4             May I inform you that this is an intercept of a conversation

 5     taking place between myself and Mr. Krajisnik on the 13th of July, 1991.

 6     This conversation primarily relates to difficulties within the MUP.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that there's no such document in the

 8     e-court.  Could you check it again?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the 65 ter number, 30103.

10     It should be there.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I have it.  65 ter 30103, I have it.  It should be

12     coming.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Could you now please have a look at this.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, we need page 2.  It

16     will be a good thing if we had the Serbian version as well, instead of

17     this Official Note that we have here.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Yes, this is what it says here.  In the Serbian version, it's

20     towards the bottom:

21             "That Mico Stanisic called me," says Mr. Krajisnik.

22             And then he goes on to say:

23             "They are in serious trouble over there, and we simply must make

24     a big cut.  That Ljuto stung me again."

25             I think it's really "Vito," not "Ljuto."

Page 4745

 1             "The other day, "let him -- well, go to hell."

 2             And I say:

 3             "Vito is a monster [as interpreted]."

 4             I don't know.

 5             "Rajko, we need to persuade Rajko that Vito is a monster,"

 6     because Rajko had put him up as a candidate.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page?  In

 8     English, it's 3.  I did not say "monster," I said "cudo," "miracle."

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The right interpretation

10     would be "quite a piece of work."

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   See what it says here now?  Well, Krajisnik says:

13             "They have not resolved that.  I thought that we should convene

14     all the cadres that are there, and let us write this up along with all

15     the irregularities and say, 'Gentlemen, let us resolve all of this, and

16     we are simply looking for an answer.  We want this to be resolved.'  That

17     is quite obvious."

18             And so on and so forth.

19             Now, perhaps it would be better if you would read one Krajisnik

20     and one Karadzic and then --

21        A.   I don't have page 2.

22        Q.   It says "ma ja."  You can see that.  It's the fourth line from

23     the bottom -- or from the top.

24        A.   "Oh, yes, it's terrible, these petty deceits and tricks.  I mean,

25     it is contemptible.  People cannot living together that way.  It is

Page 4746

 1     terrible, what they're doing."

 2             Momo Krajisnik:

 3             "Yes, yes."

 4             Karadzic:

 5             "And Vito is there and helping them.  Actually, they've bought

 6     him, man.  They've given him a car.  Now they're paying for his flat.

 7     They're all scum.  He's a scumbag.  I think he's the worst scumbag."

 8             Krajisnik:

 9             "Oh, my goodness.  For my own sake, I can't believe what you're

10     saying.  But, honestly, this is no good."

11        Q.   Do you know what it is that the two of us are discussing?

12        A.   When I testified in the Zupljanin/Stanisic case, I described in

13     detail that the SDA had corrupted Mr. Vito Zepinic.

14             And, Mr. President, when we were talking about that one category

15     of people, that's where he was.  He was given a car, Mazda 626, it was

16     found in Kasindol, near Lukavica, at the beginning of the war.  Also in

17     the Street Leninova, number 8, they bought him a house, next door to the

18     kindergarten called Bosko Buha; we know exactly where it was.  And he

19     also got some money.

20             We found the Mazda and the house that was bought for his business

21     premises.  We just didn't find the money.

22        Q.   What was supposed to be the service he was supposed to render?

23             It wasn't really a house.  The transcript says "house," but it is

24     just business premises.  That is to say that it can be a shop or some

25     such premises where business transactions can take place.

Page 4747

 1        A.   Yes, business premises.

 2        Q.   Why would they give such valuables to him?  Why?

 3        A.   As we all know, Vito Zepinic was the ranking Serb in the

 4     ministry.  He was the personnel officer, and he was in charge of all of

 5     that that was happening in the ministry.  Basically, the objective was

 6     for him to help the arming of the Muslim people, and that the weapons

 7     that came through Croatia and Slovenia, or, rather, by aeroplane from the

 8     Arab countries, enter Bosnia-Herzegovina unhindered.  Inter alia, there

 9     were personnel problems.  And also there were other honest people there

10     whom they were trying to keep silent.  For a while, I think that he had

11     dazzled you, in a way, Mr. President, by some of these stories he made up

12     about people who had actually carried out their work honestly through

13     Rajko Dukic.  He made an effort to stay there for as long as possible and

14     to do the things that the SDA had paid him to do.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you look at the next one after Krajisnik.  I'm

16     talking about Rajko.  I say:

17             "No.  Rajko is here.  Now he feels guilty because he had

18     recommended him.  He shouldn't feel guilty."

19             Do you agree that we had all made mistakes in making various

20     appointments and I'm trying to relieve Rajko Dukic of his feeling of

21     remorse?

22        A.   As far as I know it, Rajko Dukic used to be the president of the

23     Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic Party, and he was the main

24     personnel officer in the party.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see English page 5 and

Page 4748

 1     Serbian page 3.  The next one in Serbian, and page 5 in English.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Throughout this conversation, we discussed the things that were

 4     going on and our inability to get the MUP to work lawfully.  And look at

 5     this line where Krajisnik says:

 6             "Well, how ..."

 7        A.   "Well, how?  What did he mess up?  Listen, I told that lot down

 8     there, 'Gentlemen, we have the right only to live together, and we will

 9     press for that, and we won't let anyone break up Bosnia at the expense of

10     the Serbian people.  That's it.'"

11             Karadzic says:

12             "Right."

13             Krajisnik goes on:

14             "So, on the whole, it's all right."

15        Q.   Were you aware that we were working for a united, undivided

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state with the rule of law?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can this intercept be admitted?  Now it's marked for

20     identification.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification as Exhibit D363.

22     And there are a couple of additional administrative matters which first

23     relates to the previous document, 1D1882.  Noting that there's no

24     translation for that, we will -- would mark that for identification as

25     well.

Page 4749

 1             And then --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think there is a translation.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Zupljanin's letter to Plavsic.  Did we -- no, no,

 4     this is the -- I'm sorry, the -- Pecanic's Official Note.  I don't think

 5     there was one.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, there is one.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  1D -- so Exhibit -- is, then, the English

 8     translation for D362?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3.

10             JUDGE KWON:  3.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3.  Not for 2, but 3.  1883.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So there's no English translation for 1D1883, so

13     we'll mark it for identification, pending translation.

14             And in relation to the 1D1885, which we admitted as Exhibit D360,

15     marked for identification, when I checked the e-court while it was put to

16     the witness, there was only one document, but I'm not sure whether

17     Mr. Sladojevic played a measure or not.  Now it consists of 80 documents,

18     80 cover letters.  And then the one you showed through ELMO may be

19     included in one of those documents.  I haven't checked it.  So we will

20     admit only -- that being the case, we will admit only those two pages

21     that were put to the witness.  I don't see the necessity to admit all of

22     them.

23             So we'll proceed.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this is a standard

25     letter of recommendation for all 80 of them.  It's a standard format.  We

Page 4750

 1     can have it admitted as such because it's the same text for all these

 2     people.  Only the names change.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we have evidence, and in the witness

 4     confirmation there are -- there were 80 of them.  We don't have to admit

 5     them all.  We don't need to then translate again.

 6             So we can proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we now call up 65 ter 0113 [as interpreted].  I believe that

 9     it was already tendered during the cross-examination by the Prosecution.

10     But on English page 4 I'd like you to look at -- the 65 ter is 30113.  We

11     don't have the right document now.  65 ter 30113.  Maybe it's already in

12     evidence.

13             Now I'd like English page 4 and Serbian page 4.

14             JUDGE KWON:  That's the one we admitted as Exhibit P1079.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it was probably MFI'd.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Here in the middle, Karadzic says:

18             "Okay.  Tell me what's going on in Prijedor."

19             Can you see this?  This is a conversation between you and me on

20     the 22nd of July, 1992; therefore, after the elections and after the

21     government was formed seven months after the elections.  Can you read

22     this?

23        A.   Radovan Karadzic says:

24             "Fine.  Do you have any information ... they appointed a man in

25     Prijedor last Friday afternoon.  Now there is a Muslim commander and a

Page 4751

 1     Muslim mayor and Muslim chief of defence, Territorial Defence."

 2             Momcilo Mandic says:

 3             "I don't know.  I'll look into it."

 4        Q.   All right.  Was that one of those problems, where not even seven

 5     months after the inter-party agreement was the agreement honoured, and a

 6     Muslim was appointed to all these three posts?

 7        A.   Yes, and this is not an isolated case.

 8        Q.   I just wanted to point this out and remind the witness of the

 9     background.  Do you believe that the Serbs in Prijedor had reason for

10     concern, in view of the fact that the war had already started in Croatia,

11     there were rumours about people arming themselves?

12        A.   I can't answer that question.  I don't know how people felt.

13        Q.   Could all this be qualified as deceit and cheating and unlawful?

14        A.   There was no deceit.  It was simply failure to honour an

15     agreement.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we now get 1D01393.

18             I see the witness's answer was not recorded, that it was not

19     lawful.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it was not unlawful, because

21     if the person appointed met the legal requirements, it was not unlawful;

22     it was just failure to honour an agreement between parties.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   And it was contrary to the customs?

25        A.   Well, according to the share of various communities in the total

Page 4752

 1     population, the first man in a certain field was supposed to be from one

 2     community, the second from the second most numerous communities,

 3     et cetera.  That was not observed.  But it was not unlawful.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now get 1D01393.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you see that this is 11 February -- 12 February 1991?  That's

 7     a month after the creation of the coalition government.  Can you read

 8     this:

 9             "In estimating the security situation ..."

10        A.   I can't read this.  I can't see well enough.

11        Q.   Then I'll do it.  This was sent to all the municipal boards of

12     the SDS and all the local boards and activists of the SDS in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It goes:

14             "In estimating the security situation, we would like to point out

15     two aspects that need to be clarified.  First, the flats and houses of

16     JNA Army members are marked with a special sign.  And, second, rumours

17     are going around about the -- about unlawful acquisition of weapons

18     and --"

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Should it be of assistance, this

21     is the Prosecution's 65 ter 01458.  It's also D00259.  And there is a

22     translation available, if that's of assistance.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Which means that has been already admitted.  Let's

24     try that number.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D259, yes.

Page 4753

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Mandic, just to refresh your memory, this letter says that

 3     the homes of members of the JNA were being marked, just like in Croatia;

 4     and, second, there were rumours about people arming themselves.  And now

 5     these boards are required to compile reports, with one copy to be sent to

 6     the party and another copy to the nearest army garrison.

 7             Do you see that, at this time, tensions were already being

 8     created through these rumours and also by marking the homes of JNA Army

 9     officers?

10        A.   I know that this sort of thing happened in the

11     Republic of Croatia and in the border-belt between Croatia and Bosnia,

12     along the Una River.  I don't know that it happened in the eastern part

13     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not at this time.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this is already in evidence,

15     I'd like to call 65 ter 30088.  It's related to this topic.  30088.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you recall, Witness, that Mr. Izetbegovic, all the way up to

18     end January 1991, was in favour in preserving Yugoslavia, such as it was?

19        A.   I know that because I provided security at those famous meetings

20     between all the presidents of all Yugoslav republics.

21        Q.   Do you remember that in the end of January, the SDA announced the

22     adoption of the Declaration on Sovereignty, which was a step towards the

23     independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   These tensions and all these rumours circulating in mid-February,

Page 4754

 1     do they indicate that it was precisely this announcement of independence

 2     that created these tensions?

 3        A.   For all I know, the Serbs wanted to stay within the old

 4     Yugoslavia, and Muslims did so for a while as well, and the first

 5     president of this rump Yugoslavia, without Slovenia, was to be a Muslim.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I noted that the transcript says, at

 7     96/18, "January 1991."  I'm not sure that's what the question intended by

 8     way of the date.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance:

10             "Up to the end of January, 1991," that's what I asked the

11     witness, "is it the case that the SDA and Izetbegovic were in favour of

12     keeping the old Yugoslavia?"

13             And the answer was:  "Yes."

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   It was only at the end of January, the 31st of January, that the

16     SDA announced the change in its policy, right after the elections?

17        A.   I don't know that the SDA changed its position in the end January

18     1991.

19        Q.   All right.  You were not involved in politics, but the first

20     attempt to endorse this document was in the end of January 1991?

21        A.   I don't know about that, Mr. President.

22        Q.   This is a conversation between me and Zepinic, deputy minister,

23     who was wire-tapped by his own service.

24             Can we see the second page in both versions.  Where it says

25     "uh-huh."

Page 4755

 1        A.   "Let me tell you, please, this reorganisation that's being

 2     carrying out, we have to see what this reorganisation will really mean,

 3     and also don't let them remove a single man of yours, if all of you don't

 4     want --"

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 3 in English.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] " ... whether it's good or not.  I

 7     have to sign something.  Simovic sent me something to sign.  Simovic does

 8     not inform me.  It's somewhere with Doko.  I told Simovic to call me

 9     urgently.  He's at a Cabinet session.  He was working --"

10             Oh, I see here, it says where he was working.  And now I wonder

11     how it's possible that this young man will be moved from some service.

12     Maybe we need him in that service.  Maybe he's the only one we need

13     there.  But Simovic doesn't tell me about it.  It's probably somewhere

14     with Doko."

15        Q.   We'll stop here, page 4 in English.  Do you remember that it was

16     a frequent manipulation?  A reorganisation was carried out to remove a

17     Serb from a certain service where he could have an insight into what his

18     colleagues were doing?

19        A.   That happened on the police force, as I described.

20        Q.   Did you hear about this Knezevic man who was in the Communication

21     Service of the Ministry of the Interior?

22        A.   Yes.  I believe during the war he was an assistant minister for

23     communication.

24        Q.   Do you remember that this Communication Service was also taken

25     over by the SDA?

Page 4756

 1        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 2        Q.   Do you agree that all this unlawful wire-tapping was not done by

 3     the MUP, but by the SDA?

 4        A.   It was done by the service to which I also belonged, but there

 5     were people who took all these tapes, et cetera, to just one place, to

 6     the Party of Democratic Action, in other words.  Of course, it was never

 7     the state, it was never the prosecutor, who ordered that someone should

 8     be wire-tapped in connection with some case or anything else.  It was

 9     just party politics being pursued, routing for one party, and the leader

10     of this entire team and the manager of this entire action was

11     Munir Alibegovic, who in the 1980s had actually locked up

12     Alija Izetbegovic in prison.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see English

14     page 4 and the following page in the Serbian.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   See here, Karadzic says:

17             "How can they move him without us knowing about that?"

18             And in the last third, when Karadzic says --

19        A.   "Well, no, I don't know who is moving him, who nominated him to

20     Simic for that role."

21             Zepinic:  "Just to be honest, maybe he made a deal with Simovic.

22     The man didn't mention this."

23             Karadzic:  "Yes, please do.  I don't want to lose."

24             Zepinic:  "Simovic has ..."

25             Karadzic:  "Don't let go of a single one.  I told Simovic to --

Page 4757

 1     from the government, to leave the government, and to -- we'll talk on the

 2     phone.  Please, there is not a single post that they can, well, in a

 3     sense ..."

 4        Q.   Can you skip over this and then go where it says "Pane,

 5     Karadzic"?

 6        A.   Karadzic:  "Well, no, I mean Kuzenovic should stay.  That is of

 7     interest to us.  He cannot be moved without us knowing it.  What Hilmo or

 8     Alija or anybody else is doing, well, basically, what is basic, is they

 9     will never -- they will never again with S ..."

10             Zepinic:  "No, they are not doing it.  You must understand

11     yesterday, last night, we talked about it at a collegium session.  There

12     is not a chance about that."

13             Karadzic:  "Come on.  See to it that the collegium meets every

14     morning to see what happened yesterday and what is being planned for

15     today.  Not a single appointment should be made without the full consent

16     of all the Serbs there."

17             Zepinic:  "I don't know, I don't know.  I have to see about it

18     all with Simovic."

19             Karadzic:  "Because the result of that -- the upshot of that will

20     be -- we have prepared a scenario which will be horrendous.  We have --"

21             Shall I continue?

22        Q.   Yes, but skip the four-letter word.

23        A.   "We have prepared, but in order to avoid that, let us sit down

24     every day."

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we see the next page in

Page 4758

 1     Serbian and in English, page number 5.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Zepinic:  "That is really

 3     surprising for this to be."

 4             Karadzic:  "Because this government is shared by the three

 5     nations and we shouldn't play dumb.  Here the power is shared by three

 6     peoples and one people, and if there are more cunning or if any of the

 7     other people are not careful enough, the other people will gain the upper

 8     hand."

 9             Zepinic:  "Sure enough.  It is like that in all multi-national

10     communities.  Three peoples are sharing power, watching closely not to be

11     tricked.  And we've been tricked at the MUP, especially at the

12     State Security, short-changed.  We would also be -- they were -- in which

13     Serbs will and which won't."

14        Q.   Thank you.  Is it clear here, Mr. Mandic, that what I'm asking

15     for is not that I or the party should make the appointments, but that the

16     Serbian collegium in the MUP should reach agreement on its own personnel,

17     and that that would be acceptable to us?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we have the next page in Serbian, and in the English version

21     it is page number 7.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   If I can -- it's the seventh box from the top.  It is about a

24     certain Suka whom they're actually planting or -- can you look at it?  It

25     says [B/C/S spoken].

Page 4759

 1        A.   Karadzic:  "Come on.  Brane Suka is the most infamous among the

 2     true Serbs.  He wire-tapped our premises up there.  He ransacked the food

 3     warehouse."

 4             I guess, yes, he ransacked it.

 5             Zepinic:  "Well, damn them.  Why are they suggesting him, then?"

 6             Karadzic:  "Who's proposing him?"

 7             Zepinic:  "Devedlaka and this company from the State."

 8             Karadzic:  "No, Devedlaka and the company cannot suggest him

 9     until the entire Serbian collegium meets, they cannot."

10             Zepinic:  "Well, we don't know.  And those, they don't know

11     either."

12             Karadzic:  "Please, don't let them not know.  No, they have to

13     know.  Nothing should be done single-handedly.  This is not a private

14     matter.  The entire collegium should meet and they should be told this

15     position is vacant and we are suggesting this man for the job.  I beg you

16     to stop doing these things on a private basis, because no one is entitled

17     to do that on a private basis."

18        Q.   Is this in accordance with what you have just confirmed, that a

19     party was not asking this for its own sake, it is asking for a democratic

20     transparent process for the entire Serbian MUP to give their consent to

21     such approvals -- appointments?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you recall a single good Serbian professional policeman who

24     we rejected, who remained outside the service in the New Democratic

25     police force?

Page 4760

 1        A.   No, there is no such man.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we then see page 9 in the English version and the next page

 4     in the Serbian version, this largest paragraph that begins with "Dobro."

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you read that out?

 7        A.   Karadzic:  "All right.  Please, let the collegium meet every

 8     morning, and let that all be cleared up.  I was with Izetbegovic last

 9     night and with Zulfikarpasic, and I told him, right to his face, we will

10     establish a parallel government, a parallel police.  We will withdraw our

11     people, and they will have to be paid by the government.  We'll withdraw

12     all our people under arms.  We will establish an entire parallel state if

13     you keep on --"

14        Q.   Yes, go on.

15        A.   " ... screwing us.  And he just looked at me and blinked, because

16     we'll do that.  Not even God could stop us in that, because they started

17     to screw us and to fuck us up, and there is no doubt we will do all of

18     that in a week.  So let there be war, let there be war, it may be that we

19     will finish the job for once."

20        Q.   Continue.

21        A.   Zepinic:  "At least we'll know where we stand."

22             Karadzic:  "We'll finish the job once and for all.  And those

23     petty tricks, you know, we are now about to sign a very important

24     document together with them, with the Muslims, but I won't sign until all

25     these things are finished.  This is a disaster.  And I now see that

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 1     Devedlaka does not dare suggest anyone, to anybody on a private basis,

 2     without verifying it with the party."

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember this was the 22nd -- 24th of July?

 4     Do you recall that this was when the historical Serbo-Muslim agreement

 5     was being hammered out with Zulfikarpasic on the Muslim side, acting on

 6     behalf of Izetbegovic?  And I'm talking about this agreement, and I say

 7     that I will be signing it only if agreements are honoured?

 8        A.   Yes, Mr. Zulfikarpasic was the president of the MB Party, the

 9     Muslim party.  He was chosen by Mr. Izetbegovic to negotiate with the

10     Serbs, the signing of this agreement.  This was supposed to have been an

11     historic agreement between the Muslims and the Serbs.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can this be admitted for identification?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be D364, marked for identification.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we will stop your cross-examination

17     for today here.  There are a couple of matters the Chamber wishes to deal

18     with at this point.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I had another document of the same

20     date, but tomorrow will be fine.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The first thing is related to you, Mr. Mandic.

22             The Chamber has been informed that -- informed of your wish to be

23     permitted to travel home over this coming weekend, in light of the fact

24     that your evidence is unlikely to be completed by that time and that we

25     are not sitting on Friday, 9th July, or Monday, 12th July.  You have

Page 4762

 1     given your assurance that you will return to complete your evidence after

 2     the weekend, and we are of the view that you should be permitted to go

 3     home for the long weekend.  And we are grateful to the Victims and

 4     Witnesses Section for making the necessary arrangements.  I will only

 5     emphasise to you, as I have done already, that is:  It is imperative that

 6     you do not discuss the content of your testimony with anyone before that

 7     testimony is completed.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for your

 9     understanding.  It goes without saying that I shall strictly abide by all

10     your instructions.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The second matter is not related to you, but it may

12     be Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic.  It relates to one of the binding order

13     motions.

14             The Chamber is in the process of deciding the accused's motions

15     for binding orders, as you are well aware, and as of today there are only

16     two motions pending, those relating to Croatia and Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina.

18             With regard to the motion concerning Croatia, the Chamber

19     received the submission from Croatia on 24th of March, in which it stated

20     that it is still searching for documents requested by the accused, and

21     that it is also prepared to provide the accused with a list of material

22     for inspection.

23             Before deciding the motion, the Chamber would like to know

24     whether there have been any developments in relation to it; in

25     particular: whether more documents have been given to the Defence by

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 1     Croatia since 24th of March; whether the Defence has been in contact with

 2     the Croatian authorities in order to organise this inspection of

 3     documents; and what the position of the Defence is as to the most

 4     appropriate next step.

 5             Therefore, before issuing the decision on that motion, the

 6     Chamber would be assisted by answers to these questions from the Defence

 7     in writing by the end of this week, if possible.

 8             We'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of July,

12                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.