Page 4978
1 Tuesday, 13 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon to everybody.
6 I was advised, Mr. Karadzic, that you have something to raise
7 before the witness enters the courtroom.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Excellencies. Good
9 afternoon, everybody.
10 Yes, I've asked for a short time to be allotted me to present
11 what I have, better in the absence of the witness. This has to do with
12 associated evidentiary cases; i.e., exhibits.
13 You have been [indiscernible] inclined to this possibility
14 towards me. Namely, I have not been given 48 hours for this witness, and
15 there are many things which are repetitive, but they are not identical.
16 They confirm certain events. And, therefore, I should like to ask you
17 how I am to proceed. My proposal is that you ask the witness to take a
18 look at a number of documents and at a number of agency pieces of news
19 which have to do with the government, the activities of the government.
20 There are some statements of his there as well. There are some
21 statements of the government which we do not have, as such, but which
22 have been communicated via agencies. There are various notices of
23 vacancies for prison guards, et cetera. So no comments, in fact, but
24 just news, pieces of news that the witness is aware of, and events,
25 developments, that the witness is aware of. I should like to ask the
Page 4979
1 Chamber that the witness look at these and then initial the documents in
2 question, and then the parties, together with the Chamber, could decide
3 what is to be done with them. And I should also like to hear the stance
4 of the other party on this issue.
5 There would be [indiscernible] a number of other governmental
6 documents, because what I want us to do is not to repeat documents which
7 are similar in nature to those that we have already seen and shown, but
8 they are important for gaining the full picture.
9 JUDGE KWON: Question number 1, Mr. Karadzic: Has the witness
10 seen those documents yet?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, we have had no contacts with
12 the witness. Had we known that it would be a Chamber witness, we would
13 have taken those steps, but I meant, actually, for the Chamber to ask the
14 witness to take a look in the afternoon -- or, rather, in his spare time.
15 This is not much. These are merely agency news. He hasn't seen these
16 documents yet, but he knows of the events which they depict.
17 JUDGE KWON: Second question is, Mr. Karadzic, whether the
18 Prosecution has been informed of the list of documents you want to tender
19 in that way.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, since I have been
21 given 48 -- had I been given 48 hours, I would have actually presented
22 these documents myself. But since I haven't been allotted that much
23 time, I thought that we should proceed in this way: by the witness
24 examining the documents, and then we should like to ask the other side,
25 the Prosecution, to actually state their position on what the witness
Page 4980
1 states. It goes without saying that this can be, of course, rejected or
2 dismissed, but what is of the essence is for the witness to finish his
3 part of the job while he is here, and it is then up to us to either admit
4 or not admit some of those pieces of evidence.
5 JUDGE KWON: Just let me be clear.
6 So the Prosecution at this moment does not have a clue what
7 documents you have in mind?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're quite right, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 That heard, I have to ask you, Mr. Tieger, what would you say to
11 this suggestion?
12 MR. TIEGER: A couple of things, Your Honour.
13 First of all, Dr. Karadzic raised this earlier, as, I believe,
14 the Chamber will recall, and was told at that time to present the
15 documents to the Prosecution so the process could move forward.
16 As a general matter, we -- the Prosecution agrees that there are
17 expeditious ways of presenting relevant documents, and we're happy to
18 seek, with the Defence, an appropriate -- any appropriate mechanism of
19 doing so. And, in general, had we been presented with these documents,
20 we would have treated it as an anticipated Bar table submission and dealt
21 with the documents accordingly. So it's unfortunate that that process
22 was not followed.
23 As I understand the current suggestion, it seems to be an
24 amalgamation of several different approaches, kind of combining the
25 normal process of presenting documents to a witness with a classical Bar
Page 4981
1 table submission. I anticipated, when the accused raised the possibility
2 earlier and was advised by the Court to present them to the Prosecution,
3 that we would be dealing with them as a Bar table submission, and we were
4 quite prepared to do so and to be wholly amenable to that process.
5 I'm not quite sure I understand the sort of combined process the
6 accused is now suggesting. But as the Court notes, we're not aware of
7 what those documents are, so we're rather in the dark.
8 JUDGE KWON: What is a bit different from an ordinary Bar table
9 motion is that in this case, we can have a witness's confirmation, albeit
10 in brief form.
11 MR. TIEGER: Well, as the Court noted, it's one thing to confirm
12 a document, and that's more along the lines of a kind of 92 ter process,
13 documents that the witness produced himself, so that's a document from
14 the Ministry of Justice bearing my signature. That's a rather
15 perfunctory process which often accompanies a witness's testimony, and
16 which, by the way, up to now, we've had some trouble getting into
17 evidence without a formal 92 ter process. I'm not saying we have to
18 proceed that way, but I am just noting that that has been the case.
19 But I also note that Dr. Karadzic appears to be suggesting the
20 presentation of documents to the witness which really don't have any
21 relationship to him. I understand he's talking about newspaper articles,
22 about general events and so on, and I don't think a simple review by the
23 witness and some sort of signal that he's familiar with the general
24 events advances the process. I think it could be far more useful to the
25 Chamber if those documents were presented, both parties could identify
Page 4982
1 the relevance or authenticity issues surrounding that document, and they
2 could proceed in the fashion that has been adopted in many other cases,
3 and I think it is quite useful so the Court knows the relevance and knows
4 whether or not there are any authenticity issues as well.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
6 I would like also to take this opportunity to hear from you
7 regarding the accused's suggestion to tender parts of Mr. Mandic's
8 testimony in Stanisic and Zupljanin pursuant to Rule 92 ter. I take it
9 you also received the list of pages he wished to tender in that form.
10 MR. TIEGER: We did, Your Honour, and I, frankly, didn't give
11 thought to responding. I understood that the Court had made a decision
12 on that, and we simply reviewed the material -- the pages identified to
13 see whether there were additional pages from those transcripts that we
14 considered should also be submitted, and we identified a handful of
15 those.
16 JUDGE KWON: Excuse me, Mr. Tieger.
17 Did you say that the Court had made a decision on that? What
18 decision do you refer to?
19 MR. TIEGER: Well, I understood that the -- as I recall the
20 backdrop to this issue, the matter was raised by the accused. We had
21 some discussion about the 92 ter process generally, which tended to focus
22 on the more classical form of reviewing the transcripts and then the
23 acknowledgment by the Chamber that this witness had been before this
24 Court very recently -- not this Court, but had been to the Tribunal very
25 recently, and that appeared to be a step which was unnecessary, but the
Page 4983
1 Court simply invited the accused, rather than submitting the entirety of
2 the transcript, to review it for those particular sections that he
3 wanted. So when we received his identification of the portions that he
4 wanted, we reviewed the entirety of the transcripts ourselves to identify
5 any additional pages that we would ask the Court to admit along with
6 those.
7 JUDGE KWON: Actually, I don't think the Chamber has made a final
8 decision on this matter. But I take it that you do not object to
9 tendering those parts into evidence.
10 MR. TIEGER: Correct, Your Honour. Our position is that the
11 92 ter process is, of course, available, and provided that the Court is
12 satisfied that the conditions are met. And, as I say, I think we
13 identified the only issue that appeared to be -- or the only matter that
14 appeared potentially to be at issue, and I understand the Court was
15 satisfied it was not, at least in this particular circumstance. So we
16 certainly don't have any objection to both sides availing themselves of
17 92 ter when appropriate.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
19 The Chamber will rule on the admissibility in due course very
20 soon, Mr. Karadzic. But when a Chamber receives as evidence some part of
21 the transcript, it is often receiving the exhibit which is associated
22 with that transcript which forms an indispensable or an inseparable part
23 of that transcript. So are you going to tender some exhibit under that
24 regime, as associated exhibit, whether you can identify some exhibit
25 under that category?
Page 4984
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe so, yes.
2 JUDGE KWON: And whether we grant your suggestion or not, I think
3 I recommend you to immediately disclose the list of documents, together
4 with the 65 ter numbers, to the Prosecution so that they can respond to
5 your suggestion, which does not form an inseparable, indispensable part
6 of the transcript.
7 There's one further matter I'd like to visit before we begin the
8 hearing of evidence.
9 Last week, we informed the parties informally, on Friday last
10 week, that a maximum of four hours would be permitted for
11 cross-examination of the next scheduled witness, i.e., KDZ-272 or
12 Mr. Milan Mandilovic. The Chamber's assessment was made on the basis of
13 the criteria we have set out previously and, in particular,
14 Mr. Karadzic's own estimate of the time needed for cross-examination, the
15 Prosecution's estimate of the time needed for direct examination, the
16 witness's amalgamated statement, and the scope and subject matter of the
17 witness's anticipated evidence. In light of that assessment, the Chamber
18 was of the view that a maximum of four hours is a reasonable time to the
19 accused's cross-examination of Mr. Mandilovic.
20 Thank you.
21 That said, we'll bring in the witness.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, one more matter, if I may.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: And if I can have one second to check an issue with
25 Mr. Reid.
Page 4985
1 Your Honour, again this is a scheduling matter, and I appreciate
2 the Court's assistance on these issues.
3 As the Court will recall, when we requested the projected
4 cross-examination time, it was in connection with the scheduling of the
5 upcoming witnesses. The --
6 JUDGE KWON: Who is supposed to come on Monday, the 19th?
7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, it's still Mr. -- we still have Mr. Mandilovic
8 after Mr. Mandic, and then Mr. Abdel-Razek. But the witness afterwards
9 we indicated was going to be Mr. Mole, and the reason was we had hoped to
10 fill in the smallish slot available, that is, the limited time available
11 after Mr. Abdel-Razek, with the witness, who wouldn't have to go back and
12 forth, and so we shifted the schedule lighting so Mr. Soljevic, who was
13 projected for a longer period of time, would not be required to come back
14 and forth, and hopefully we could complete a witness. As it turns out,
15 Mr. Mole was not available, so we need to revert back to the original
16 schedule, which has Mr. Soljevic following Mr. Abdel-Razek. So the
17 schedule will be Mr. Mandilovic, Mr. Abdel-Razek, and then Mr. Soljevic.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for the information.
19 Mr. Karadzic, in the meantime, when do you think you can prepare
20 the compilation of documents to be put to the witness?
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, most of it, especially the
23 agency news part, is something I could submit to the OTP today, although
24 my idea had been first to have my idea verified and then to see whether
25 it is admissible or not, because I do not know whether Mr. Mandic will
Page 4986
1 leave in the meantime, whether, in other words, he will be able to
2 examine all these documents after we have reached agreement with the OTP.
3 I thought that Mr. Mandic could do so today and tomorrow in his spare
4 time and to initial the documents that he's familiar with, and then the
5 two sides could agree on what portion of these documents is admissible or
6 not.
7 JUDGE KWON: Before you do that, the Chamber wants to see that
8 list of documents as soon as possible, and that should be disclosed to
9 the Prosecution in advance as well.
10 Good afternoon, Mr. Mandic. I hope you had a refreshing weekend
11 and you had a safe journey.
12 Mr. Tieger, did you have something?
13 MR. TIEGER: I can raise it -- I think I understand the proposal
14 a little better, and it prompted a comment, but we can deal with that
15 once we receive a list in any event.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 Very well. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
18 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon to you, Mr. Minister.
23 A. Good fortune to you, Mr. President.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D02095. This is a
25 government document, an excerpt from instructions for the work of crisis
Page 4987
1 staffs.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Minister, let me ask you this: Was the government delighted
4 at the chaos which was obtaining or was it in desperation?
5 A. The government was extremely worried over what was going on in
6 the field.
7 Q. Namely, some experts of the OTP suggest that the crimes which
8 were being committed in our civil war were something that the government
9 favoured, it favoured such a course of developments, or in the very least
10 it did not exert any efforts to stop that, and those with the most
11 extreme anti-Serbian orientation actually claim that this is what the
12 government wanted. So the question is: If the government really had
13 wanted that, would not it have been glad at what was happening?
14 A. The government was doing everything in its power, when all the
15 communications in the field had been severed, both road communications
16 and telecommunications, to prevent any developments that were detrimental
17 to both the Serbian and the Muslim and the Croat people there.
18 Q. Do you remember that last time we established that the Serbian
19 crisis staffs were activated on the 4th of April, after the proclamation
20 of general mobilisation which had been declared by the Croat and Muslim
21 portion of the Presidency?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Please look at this. This is the 1st of May, 1992 -- sorry. No,
24 in fact, it was the 26th of April. You were still formally in the MUP.
25 You were not yet a minister of justice. Can you read the title and item
Page 4988
1 1?
2 A. "Excerpt from the instruction for the work of the municipality
3 crisis staffs of the Serbian people."
4 Item 1:
5 "In a state of war, the Crisis Staff shall take over all the
6 prerogatives and functions of the municipal assemblies, when they are
7 unable to convene."
8 Q. Thank you. Do you agree when there is a heavy snowfall or when
9 there are floods or when there is no heat and gas, namely, in any
10 situation which requires the intensive action of the authorities, crisis
11 staffs would be -- or were established?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see the next
14 page in Serbian, and I believe it is the same page in English, which
15 starts with item 9.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Please read items 9 and 10.
18 A. "9. The Crisis Staff shall create conditions for the work of the
19 international peace-making and humanitarian organisations and ensure the
20 safe passage of humanitarian aid convoys to their final destinations.
21 "10. Treat extremely humanely and in accordance with the
22 International Red Cross towards the non-combat populace and the wounded,
23 and act humanely and in accordance with the laws of the Serbian Republic
24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina towards the POWs."
25 Q. Thank you. Can you now also read item 13, and the rest is
Page 4989
1 available to the participants for them to read if they so wish.
2 A. Item 13:
3 "War profiteers, looting mobs and the like, are to be arrested
4 and handed over to the investigating judicial organs of the Serbian
5 republic."
6 Q. Thank you. You are aware of these efforts of the government;
7 right?
8 A. Yes. We talked about this earlier, when I was examined here by
9 both the Prosecutor as well as you, yourself.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can this document be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D407, Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Minister, would it be fair to say that we, at the central
16 level, had remained without anything and that we started creating our
17 state from scratch? As they now put it, it was a green field enterprise?
18 A. I have confirmed this many times, and when I talked about the
19 Ministry of Justice, I said that I didn't even have a pencil or paper,
20 let alone anything else.
21 Q. Thank you. A witness had confirmed to us here that two years
22 would have been required to set up an army, whereas we did not have a
23 witness who would have told us how much time would have been required for
24 the creation of a proper state in conditions of poverty, sanctions, war.
25 Could you say how much time is required for the setting up of a proper
Page 4990
1 state administration?
2 A. In 1992, I was minister of justice for about eight months, and I
3 did not manage to establish that ministry, and then I left that position.
4 I mean, I didn't manage to do it fully.
5 Q. Thank you. We're going to see the vacancy announcements that you
6 had. We'll see that later on. You asked for people who had passed the
7 Bar exam to apply. Is that the way it was?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2097, could we have that, please.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. This is a document that was created three days later. Do we
12 now -- yes, we do have a translation. So could you please have a look at
13 this document. It's the government and the Ministry for Health, Social
14 Welfare, and Family Affairs. They are sending this to all crisis staffs,
15 under the authority issued by the government.
16 Do you remember who the minister of health was?
17 A. Dr. Dragan Kalinic.
18 Q. Do you agree -- I do apologise to the interpreters.
19 Do you agree that Mr. Kalinic before the war was a reformist in
20 Ante Markovic's party and that he headed that club of MPs in Parliament?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that he and Dragan Cukanovic and others,
23 other officials, were in the government, although they were not members
24 of the SDS
25 A. Yes.
Page 4991
1 Q. Thank you. Please, could you have a look at this now? Could you
2 read, for instance, the first paragraph and the first sentence of
3 paragraph 1?
4 A. "To all regional crisis staffs.
5 "Under the authority from the President of the Government of the
6 Serbian Republic
7 instructions concerning humanitarian aid and actions which are being
8 taken on the territories under the control of your staff.
9 "1. We ask you to provide free passage to all convoys of
10 humanitarian aid (food, clothes, medicaments, sanitary material) being
11 transported through the areas under your control, regardless of whether
12 these convoys are organised by international or domestic humanitarian
13 organisations."
14 Q. Could you read on the same paragraph: "That pertains to ..."
15 A. "That pertains to all convoys, regardless of their destination of
16 the localities that can be under your control or under the control of the
17 Muslim or Croatian authorities."
18 Q. Can you go on, number 2?
19 A. Number 2:
20 "You are required to make it clear to all heads of medical
21 facilities on your territory, both civilian and military ones, to
22 continue treating the sick and wounded, regardless of their ethnicity and
23 political beliefs, in accordance with the basic principles of medical
24 ethics, and all patients should be given medical treatment of the same
25 quality."
Page 4992
1 Q. Number 3, just the first sentence?
2 A. Number 3:
3 "As regards the treatment of prisoners of war, internationally
4 established norms must be respected concerning their accommodation,
5 nutrition, and medical treatment."
6 Q. Thank you. Do you agree -- or do you remember, Minister, that
7 the Presidency, on the 13th of June, issued a set of instructions in
8 terms of treating POWs, and Minister Subotic drafted that? It was my
9 order, I signed it, but the instructions had to do with the card that he
10 provided, et cetera?
11 A. You gave instructions as to how they should be treated, and
12 within that you ordered, inter alia, that the minister for military
13 affairs issue instructions regarding the treatment of POWs with the force
14 of decree or, rather, with the force of law, because this published in
15 the Official Gazette. Therefore, it had the force of law.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that that order was almost unnecessary,
17 because we see that on the 27th of April, before I even became a member
18 of the Presidency, the minister of health had already taken a measure
19 along those lines and issued instructions to regional crisis staffs?
20 A. I believe that it was necessary, because there was not sufficient
21 co-ordination between the local level and the central authorities. At
22 that point, the government that was still being established had very poor
23 communication with the local level, and I believe that it was
24 indispensable to have something like this done, from the point of view
25 of -- well, I mean, that such a thing would come from the Presidency or
Page 4993
1 the president of Republika Srpska.
2 Q. Thank you. Maybe you're right as far as the local level is
3 concerned. But from the point of view of the central government and
4 central authorities, was that indispensable, because we see that they
5 functioned along those lines even without that order and instructions
6 having been issued?
7 A. At that point in time, the government took all sorts of measures
8 in order to prevent the violation of international norms and violations
9 of human rights. However, since that was not sufficient, you also took
10 certain measures from the domain of your own powers.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can this be admitted into evidence?
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, this document was an instruction, signed
14 by the minister of health and social welfare, to the regional crisis
15 headquarters, wasn't it?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE KWON: Why, then, was it written in English at the time? I
18 see the original was in English.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? There is
20 an original in Serbian too.
21 JUDGE KWON: Let's hear from the witness first.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even look at this English
23 version. However, I assumed that there was an original in Serbian. I
24 mean, Dr. Kalinic does speak English, but I think that all documents of
25 the government were written in the Serbian language, without a single
Page 4994
1 exception. You will have to see, with Mr. Kalinic, why he did this in
2 English. I imagine it was for the benefit of international factors,
3 international humanitarian organisations, who were already moving about
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was at war.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 Mr. Karadzic.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. May I ask you, Minister, whether any humanitarian organisation
9 could have had this on them if they were moving about in the field, and
10 if they were to come across certain obstacles, could they have this as a
11 kind of pass or something?
12 A. I don't know whether they knew this -- that they used this
13 document as a pass. I know that you issued an order to the police and
14 judiciary and military organs to allow unhindered passage to all
15 international and local humanitarian organisations in the territory that
16 was under Serb control at that time. There was an order of yours to that
17 effect.
18 Q. Do you remember that it exists both in an English version and in
19 a Serbian version, and that the English version was being carried around
20 by these humanitarians? Do you remember that?
21 A. No. No, Mr. President, I just saw these Serbian versions at
22 government meetings and in the Official Gazette, and in other trials when
23 I testified; Stanisic, Krajisnik.
24 Q. Thank you. If I were to tell you that they asked me not to put a
25 date so that no one could say, at local level, that it was out of date or
Page 4995
1 something, would you be surprised?
2 A. Well, that is a matter to be agreed upon, but I remember full
3 well that the government and the central authorities of Republika Srpska
4 were trying to find the best possible ways to ensure unhindered passage
5 to all humanitarian organisations held -- in territories held by the
6 Serbs.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can this be admitted?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It will be Exhibit D408.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Minister, you're a lawyer, a judge. You are familiar with the
13 Constitution and legislation. Do you agree that according to our
14 Constitution, the president did not have to attend Assembly sessions at
15 all, unless he is presenting an expose of his own or if he is invited?
16 A. It is MPs and the president of the Assembly that have to attend
17 Assembly meetings. Certain representatives of the executive or from the
18 Presidency may attend if the subjects dealt with -- fall within the scope
19 of their own work or if they're invited by the MPs.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear
21 Mr. Karadzic's question.
22 JUDGE KWON: Put a pause before you start answering the question.
23 Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 156, that's the number of
25 the document.
Page 4996
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry. This is a record of the
3 session of the National Security Council and the Government of the
4 Serbian Republic
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Minister, let me ask you: Do you recall that at the time, all
7 the way up until the 12th of May, the Assembly was not in a position to
8 meet?
9 A. Yes. Until there was a corridor in place in Posavina, it was
10 practically impossible to move from Western to Eastern Herzegovina or
11 from Central Bosnia to Eastern Bosnia. There were obstacles on the
12 roads, and all other links of communication were extremely difficult.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that after Assembly life came into
14 being, the National Security Council practically ceased to exist and
15 function?
16 A. As for this National Security Council, I know very little about
17 it. I think that it is actually something that goes beyond the
18 Constitution. This was a provisional organ before the Presidency was
19 established, and perhaps even the Assembly too. I really don't know what
20 the role of this council was.
21 Q. Thank you. However, you do recall that the Assembly and the
22 president can establish advisory bodies and that that is in line with the
23 Constitution?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 4997
1 Can we now have the second page.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you agree, Minister, that this council was supposed to support
4 the government until proper Assembly life started, and that after that,
5 the government worked with the Assembly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. I'd like to draw your attention to paragraph 7,
8 subparagraph A. Could you please read that? As for all the participants
9 in these proceedings, they have the entire document made available to
10 them.
11 A. "7. It was decided to prepare and propose to the Assembly that
12 it adopt the following:"
13 Which subparagraph did you want?
14 Q. A.
15 A. Subparagraph A:
16 "A list of laws which should be adopted within three months.
17 These laws secure the functioning of the Serbian Republic
18 Herzegovina
19 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 8, please.
20 A. Paragraph 8:
21 "Appropriate ministers should stand in for directors of public
22 funds before they are appointed."
23 No, I beg your pardon. Number 8 reads as follows:
24 "The State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War and
25 the Dead was appointed."
Page 4998
1 Q. Thank you. So that was the 8th, and then it was confirmed on the
2 10th; right?
3 Can we have page 3 now.
4 You were elected two days later, you became a member of the
5 government?
6 A. Yes, the 12th of May, at the session of the Assembly of the Serb
7 People in Banja Luka.
8 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to read subparagraph F?
9 A. "F. To take necessary measures to bring together professionals
10 and ensure conditions for the work of state and judicial organs."
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So a month after the outbreak of
12 the war, there weren't enough trained personnel, and one of the items on
13 the agenda is to try to find appropriate personnel. And we'll see later
14 on in the media that all persons who had passed the Bar examination were
15 called upon to report. Thank you.
16 So could this be admitted, please?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D409, Your Honours.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 65 ter 162, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could I please ask you to tell us what this is all about? What
22 is this?
23 A. Minutes from the government meeting held on the 24th of May,
24 1992.
25 Q. Do you not find it striking that there is no more
Page 4999
1 National Security Council?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can we have page 2.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. 2.1, can you read that sentence, and can you interpret it for us?
7 A. 2.1:
8 "It has been determined that the Ministry of the Interior should
9 prepare a comprehensive analysis for the government regarding the
10 security situation and the state of law and order in the Serbian Republic
11 of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
12 Q. Could you please go on?
13 A. "The question of crime should be dealt with, in particular, as
14 well as the protection of private and social property, mistreatment of
15 citizens of the Serbian Republic
16 other questions that are important as regards the status of people in the
17 Serb republic."
18 Q. Paragraph 3 now, could you read that?
19 A. Paragraph 3:
20 "It was agreed --"
21 Q. 3, and then subparagraph 3 as well.
22 A. 3(3):
23 "It was concluded that the overall situation in the republic
24 should be recorded as soon as possible. To that end, groups of ministers
25 would be formed which would have direct insight in various municipalities
Page 5000
1 and would prepare reports and suggest measures to be undertaken."
2 Q. Thank you. Minister, does that mean that the government, on the
3 24th of May, did not have insight into what was going on in the territory
4 of Republika Srpska?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Can this be admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D410, Your Honours.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I should now like to ask you about something else, an event that
12 you attended to.
13 Do you remember that on the 12th of May, I was elected to the
14 Presidency and to the position of president of the Presidency of the
15 Serbian Republic
16 A. Yes, and it was published in the Official Gazette of the Serbian
17 People.
18 Q. Do you remember that the Police Academy
19 ceremony that we attended on the 13th of May?
20 A. On the 13th -- actually, the 13th of May was the Police Day for
21 50 years in the former Yugoslavia
22 kept fostering that tradition and celebrating the 13th of May. And there
23 was a central show, a central event, in the Police Academy
24 Q. Mr. Minister, someone has suggested to the OTP that we intended
25 to part ways with the Muslims living in the territories that the Serbs
Page 5001
1 were claiming as theirs. We were always very explicit. We said that if
2 Bosnia
3 parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to avoid what the Muslims wished
4 to avoid in Yugoslavia
5 right?
6 A. That was the proposal of the international community, of
7 Cutileiro's Plan. He actually -- he actually proposed this in order to
8 avoid out-voting in all institutions at all government levels in Bosnia
9 and Herzegovina
10 the Sarajevo Agreement, there should have been three entities in one
11 state. And initially the Serb and the Muslim and the Croat sides all
12 agreed to that, but subsequently, at someone's instructions, the Serbs
13 remained -- adhered to this agreement, but the Croats and Muslims didn't.
14 Q. Were you at this event in Banja Luka?
15 A. Yes, because my brother was a director there.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can we now see an insert -- a piece of footage from that event at
18 the academy on the 13th of May?
19 [Video-clip played]
20 JUDGE KWON: Can we stop there? We're supposed to hear the
21 interpretation, based upon this circulated document, so shall we begin
22 again? I take it this document was --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 2090. That is the
24 transcript of the part that we're interested in.
25 [Video-clip played]
Page 5002
1 JUDGE KWON: I have to ask the interpreters whether they have
2 been provided with this translation.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, we have, but I cannot hear
4 anything.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a translation. I have it
6 here.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters also have the translation. It
8 is just that we cannot follow the footage, because I cannot hear a single
9 word.
10 JUDGE KWON: I think I heard some Serbian in the video-clip, but
11 the interpreters said that they didn't hear anything from this footage.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Neither can I, neither can I.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Minister, that at this event there were
15 Muslims and Croats, and that I welcomed that fact, and that my welcoming
16 of that fact was responded to by applause on the part of all present?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we should like to see that and
19 to hear that.
20 JUDGE KWON: Let's give it a try again.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that perhaps they will be
22 able to fix it after the break. Anyway, I owe you this video-clip, and
23 then after the break, when it has been dealt with, we shall submit it.
24 There is one page of the speech which I delivered, where I
25 congratulate the Muslims and the Croats, and I say that we are not in
Page 5003
1 conflict with Muslims and Croats, but only with the militant leaderships
2 of the two communities.
3 Can we now have 65 ter 165. And after the break, we shall be
4 satisfied that this is so and see the video-clip itself. 65 ter 165.
5 JUDGE KWON: I think Sanction should stop. Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the document.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Minister, that the government was not too
9 happy and exactly satisfied with the crisis staffs?
10 A. Yes. And as far as I can recall, there was an initiative
11 launched by the government for them to be abolished; the crisis staffs,
12 namely.
13 Q. Was this because they were unable to exercise power and the
14 government had no way of controlling them?
15 A. Yes. In the majority of cases, they were unable to govern the
16 situation in the field, to control the situation in the field, or they
17 did wrongly what they had been tasked to do.
18 Q. Please take a look at this document, and tell us, was it the case
19 that on the 31st of May, the government was abolishing the crisis staffs;
20 right? This is the 31st of May; right?
21 A. Yes, the 17th Session.
22 Q. Item 1(b) is a decision on the setting up of War Presidencies in
23 the municipalities; is that so?
24 A. Yes, and that corresponds to what I recollect; namely, that the
25 government proposed that municipal crisis staffs should be dismantled.
Page 5004
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Can we now see page 2. I believe it is page 2 in the English
3 version as well.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Article 4, can you read that?
6 A. Article 4 -- in Article 4:
7 "Add a new third paragraph which were foresee that the republican
8 commissioner can be authorised for a number of municipalities according
9 to, if so possible, the organisation of the Army of the Serbian
10 Republic."
11 Q. The next one, the next paragraph?
12 A. "Add a new article after Article 4, the fifth article, which
13 would foresee the abolishment of crisis staffs in municipalities with the
14 setting up of a War Presidency."
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can we see the next page?
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.
18 Could you draw our attention to the passage which deals with the
19 dismantling of municipal crisis staffs? I don't think I saw that
20 passage.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is directly
22 above "AD-2" or "Re. 2."
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page,
25 please.
Page 5005
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Item 15, can you please read the second paragraph? In English,
3 it is also the next page -- actually, the page with "Item 15" on it.
4 Another page, please. Yes, and yet another page. In English, it is on
5 the top of the page, and here it is 15, item 15, paragraph 2.
6 A. Paragraph 2:
7 "Regarding this issue, it has been established that the
8 government is not sufficiently informed about issues relevant to its
9 work, in particular, the situation on the front. It has been concluded
10 that the government must be regularly informed about said issues through
11 the Ministry of Defence, the Main Staff, and the Ministry of the Interior
12 in order to be able to, within its rights and powers, engage on the
13 formulation of policy and adoption of positions, coming up with
14 appropriate solutions and their realisation."
15 Q. Is this yet more proof that the government is groping in the
16 dark, as it were, and that it is unable to control -- to manage
17 processes?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can this be admitted?
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D411, Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2098.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Here, we see "Current Issues," item 17:
Page 5006
1 [In English] "It has been agreed that Mr. Subic, the husband of
2 Mrs. Rabija Subic, should accompany the humanitarian aid convoy."
3 Can you tell the Chamber, what was -- what is Rabija Subic by
4 ethnicity?
5 A. Of Muslim ethnicity.
6 Q. One witness actually said that Rabija Subic was a Serbian
7 nationalist. Would you agree that this was a modern Muslim woman of a
8 pro-European and pro-Yugoslav orientation?
9 A. Yes, the majority of Muslims had been who lived in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina up to this war.
11 Q. Do you agree that she's married to Mlade [phoen] Subic, who is
12 named after a Croatian king and who comes from an eminent Croatian
13 family?
14 A. I don't know that, Mr. President.
15 Q. But Mlade Subic, this Croat also was a pro-Yugoslav -- of a
16 pro-Yugoslav and pro-European orientation. Do you agree that
17 Rabija Subic was the president of the --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. The interpreter did not hear the
19 end of Mr. Karadzic's question, previous question.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, interpreters noted that they didn't
21 hear the end of your last question.
22 But, by the way, are you dealing with this document which is
23 before us?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Mr. and Mrs. Subic were in the
25 previous document, and I just noticed, and I wished Mr. Mandic to tell us
Page 5007
1 that Rabija Subic was not at all any kind of a Serbian nationalist, and
2 that the expert witness who said so actually misinterpreted things.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Minister, can you take a look at this supplement to the
5 decision, which I signed on the 31st of May, 1992, amendment on the
6 establishment, seat, and jurisdiction of military courts and military
7 prosecutors' offices. Is that so?
8 A. As we have said, so far there was a military judiciary and a
9 civilian judiciary. This is an addition to an existing document. It was
10 a decision. It was amended on the 31st of May; namely, the decision on
11 the establishment, seat, and jurisdiction of military courts and military
12 prosecutorial offices. And I believe that it refers to the
13 Sarajevo Romanija Corps and the seat of the prosecutorial office attached
14 to that corps.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap. The
16 interpreter is unable to follow. I didn't hear Mr. Karadzic's question
17 again.
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You should note the interpreter's
19 note again. Because of your overlapping, the interpreters couldn't
20 follow you at all.
21 Could you repeat your last question?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. The question was: Do you remember that initially both the courts
24 and the prosecutors' offices were attached to strategic groups, namely,
25 to the corps and the Main Staff?
Page 5008
1 A. To my knowledge, and I was versed in the subject-matter, every
2 corps had its own prosecutors' office and its own judiciary, and the
3 supreme military court and the leadership of the military judiciary was
4 attached to the Main Staff in Han Pijesak.
5 Q. Do you agree or do you remember that later I removed the courts
6 to the Ministry of Defence, while leaving the prosecutorial offices in
7 the army, and that I had some complaints regarding that move of mine?
8 A. At the proposal of the minister of defence, you did so, and there
9 was a falling-out between you and the chief of the General Staff,
10 Mr. Ratko Mladic, on that occasion and in that connection.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can this document be admitted?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D412, Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 167 now, please.
16 Yes, we have it.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you look at this, please. It's the 19th Session of the
19 government, held on the 2nd of June, 1992; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Please read item 1, up to "it was concluded that ..."
22 A. "1. The government has considered current issues in the work of
23 the government and the ministries.
24 "It has been concluded that the necessary measures for the
25 rehabilitation of the complete social and economic life everywhere on the
Page 5009
1 territory of the republic should be introduced and undertaken even faster
2 than now.
3 "The need to revive economic activities has been especially
4 emphasised. With regard to that, the importance of establishing the road
5 network that would connect all the regions of the republic has been
6 emphasised again, with a special emphasis on the basic corridors
7 connecting the Bosnian Krajina to Semberija, SAO Romanija, and
8 East Herzegovina
9 Q. You can skip the next part and read: "It was concluded ..."
10 A. "It was concluded that all the ministries should speed up the
11 drafting and propose the laws from their portfolios that would provide
12 functioning of the economy, the government, and would ensure the rule of
13 law."
14 Q. And the next passage?
15 A. "Instances of robberies or looting of even the Serbian people
16 have been emphasised as a particular problem. It has, therefore, been
17 pointed out that all the measures to prevent that should be undertaken."
18 Q. And the last paragraph?
19 A. "The government once again --"
20 Q. It's the next page in English.
21 A. "The government once again concluded that it is not informed
22 about current political and military issues and about the situation in
23 the republic."
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Can we have the next page in Serbian.
Page 5010
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you agree that this shows that the government was only issuing
3 documents, with no way of implementing them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I was speaking metaphorically. I thought that the government was
6 in a vacuum.
7 A. Well, I wouldn't agree with that.
8 Q. What about the existence of road and telegraph communications?
9 A. I mentioned that at the beginning, when I said that at the
10 beginning of the war, all the roads in Bosnia and Herzegovina were
11 blocked, obstructed, those held -- those in parts of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina
13 Croats.
14 Q. Can you look at the second paragraph in Serbian: "It was
15 concluded that ..."
16 A. "It was concluded that the government should be informed on these
17 issues every day and that this should be the first item on the agenda.
18 "To make this possible, there has to be constant direct contact
19 with the Main Staff, through the prime minister and the minister of
20 defence, and a quality communications system between the state organs and
21 the military commander should be provided.
22 "All this entails examination of the current locations of the
23 highest government bodies and the military command."
24 Q. And the next?
25 A. "The problem of the lack of army officers has been brought up at
Page 5011
1 the meeting. This is one of the most important and urgent problems the
2 government should deal with."
3 Q. Can I ask you to describe to Their Honours and everybody in the
4 courtroom what the premises of the government organs at Kikinda, Pale,
5 and other places looked like?
6 A. In my testimony so far, I said something that is confirmed by
7 these minutes. The ministers were informed only from the prime minister
8 about events on the ground, and he received his information either from
9 the Main Staff or other people. And when the war broke out, the
10 government was located on temporary premises. The name of the building
11 was Kikinda. This was on the outskirts of Pale. And then some 10 or 15
12 kilometres away, in Hotel Bistrica at Jahorina. This hotel had been
13 built for the Olympic Games in 1984. We did not have the proper
14 conditions for our work in that hotel. For example, my ministry had only
15 two hotel rooms at its disposal. We transformed these two hotel rooms
16 into offices. We had an old, used Golf car and five or six employees.
17 I spoke more than once about how we started collecting paper and
18 pencils in order to draft bills for the Assembly. When the Assembly met,
19 it verified these documents about the appointments of judges and all the
20 other documents and the bills that were passed at the Assembly as laws.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D2084, and then we'll
22 go back to this -- and then we'll tender both documents at the same time.
23 1D2084.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. This is your document, Mr. Minister. Will you please tell us
Page 5012
1 about it?
2 A. The Ministry of Justice, to the MUP of Republika Srpska. It's a
3 request for the use of motor vehicles:
4 "In order to establish the legal system in Republika Srpska as
5 successfully as possible, the Ministry of Justice is duty-bound to
6 contact with the judicial organs on the ground every day. For this, it
7 needs the proper equipment, primarily motor vehicles. Currently, the
8 Ministry of Justice has only one motor vehicle, which is insufficient for
9 it to carry out its work ..."
10 Can we scroll down, please?
11 " ... which is inefficient for it to carry out the jobs and tasks
12 falling within the purview of this organ.
13 "In connection with this, we ask you to provide us and allow us
14 to use three cars, an Audi-type car and two Golf cars. We also ask you
15 to give us an all-terrain vehicle for our use."
16 Q. And the ministry is asking the MUP of Republika Srpska for this;
17 is that correct?
18 A. Yes. As I said at the outset, we only had an old Golf.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into
20 evidence, and then we can go back to the previous document.
21 JUDGE KWON: This will be marked for identification, pending
22 translation.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back to 65 ter 167, the
25 previous document, to finish with it.
Page 5013
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Minister, while we are waiting for it to come up, will you tell
3 us whether couriers were used, runners, because of the lack of telephone
4 communications?
5 A. Well, to avoid repetition, the government or the Ministry of
6 Justice had no material assets, no equipment or funds. We had to start
7 from scratch.
8 Q. Let's look at page 2 of this document. Everything you read out
9 here implies the following: Was this the basis for the extended sessions
10 of the Presidency, to which I invited the prime minister and the
11 president of the Assembly so that they could pass on the information and
12 defend their standpoints?
13 A. I don't know the reasons, but I know that the prime minister
14 attended the Presidency sessions and that he informed the Cabinet of what
15 passed there.
16 Q. And can you please read where it says: "The government drew
17 attention to the problem ...," just before "AD-2"?
18 A. "The government drew attention to the problem of the information
19 flow among the regions. The Ministry of Traffic and Communications has
20 been tasked with solving this problem as fast as possible."
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 May this document be admitted into evidence?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D414, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: If it is convenient, Mr. Karadzic, we'll take a
Page 5014
1 break.
2 We'll resume at 4.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: Thank you.
7 [Interpretation] May we have 168, 65 ter 168.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Minister, these are minutes from the government session of the
10 3rd of June. How often did the government meet?
11 A. The government met on a daily basis, if possible; very often.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, let's see what it says here.
13 The 3rd of June, the government had a session, just the
14 government; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have the next page, please
17 in English as well, where it says "AD-1," the first paragraph.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Could you please read that?
20 A. "The prime minister --"
21 Q. Excuse me, we're waiting for the English.
22 JUDGE KWON: Carry on.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 "The prime minister informed the members of the Cabinet about the
25 current issues of the security situation in the republic."
Page 5015
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Minister, is this what you were referring to when you said
3 that the prime minister informed the members of the Cabinet about what he
4 had learned from other government organs?
5 A. Yes. I won't repeat what I said. The answer is yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,
7 please.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you please describe the procedure here? It says here:
10 "It was concluded that ..."
11 It's the third from the bottom.
12 A. Yes.
13 "To start the procedure of establishing war crimes, and this
14 should be done by the War Crimes Commission established by the
15 government," and of another body.
16 Q. We discussed the Documentation Centre, headed by a man of
17 letters. So was it clear that this body was not conducting
18 investigations, but simply keeping the documents?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Well, war crimes investigated by the regular organs, the Ministry
21 of the Interior and the Commission for War Crimes established by the
22 government?
23 A. Yes, and that is a conclusion reached at this government session.
24 Q. And is this commission here being tasked only with war crimes
25 against Serbs or is it also tasked with dealing with war crimes committed
Page 5016
1 by Serbs against others?
2 A. Well, it doesn't say here. It just says "war crimes," so this is
3 understood.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't have time to go
5 through the rest of the document, but the document is at the disposal of
6 all parties in full.
7 May it be admitted into evidence?
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Just to check the accuracy of the
9 interpretation, can I see the -- can we see the first page -- the
10 previous page of this document.
11 Could you read the first sentence in the item "Re. 1,"
12 Mr. Mandic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then the page has to be brought
14 back in the Serbian as well.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The president of the
16 government --" or "the prime minister informed the members of the Cabinet
17 on the current issues concerning the security situation in the republic."
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [In English] It should have been "prime minister has
20 informed members of [indiscernible] government."
21 JUDGE KWON: We understood, Mr. Karadzic. That will be admitted.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D415, Your Honour.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 11244, 65 ter
24 11244.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5017
1 Q. Minister, do you remember that as early as April, the government
2 prohibited any buying or selling of real estate?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So let's have a look at this document, which shows that the
5 Crisis Staff, or the War Presidency at Ilidza, asked for clarification
6 from the government. So can you explain to us what the government's
7 response was to the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza?
8 A. "To the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza.
9 "Hereby we inform you that the Government of the Serbian Republic
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina has reviewed your letter regarding occupancy of
11 deserted houses and apartments.
12 "The government considers that citizens whose apartments or
13 houses have been destroyed may obtain only temporary permission to move
14 into deserted houses or apartments. The government will draw up a
15 proposal for a special regulation, based on objective criteria, to find a
16 permanent solution to the issue of providing for citizens whose houses or
17 apartments have been destroyed."
18 Q. Do you agree that in this way, the government is acting to
19 prevent the misuse of abandoned property?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 May this document be admitted into evidence?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D416, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5018
1 May we now have 1D2074.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. And while we're waiting for it, I'll ask you the following:
4 Minister, would I be correct in saying that we always counted on Muslims
5 and Croats living among us, and that they would be proportionately
6 represented in our government bodies -- 1D20074, yes, yes, that's it --
7 and that Muslims and Croats would be proportionately represented in our
8 authorities, just as Serbs should be proportionally represented in the
9 government bodies of Muslim and Bosnian areas?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. In your ministry, the process of appointing judges and
12 prosecutors, was it conducted in such a way that candidates would be
13 proposed by people on the ground, and you would bring this to the
14 Assembly or to me if the Assembly was unable to meet?
15 A. We, in the Ministry of Justice, asked the regional centres, and
16 I think there's a letter in the documentation of the OTP or of this
17 honourable Court, to nominate candidates meeting the formal and legal
18 requirements, and to inform us of the ethnic make-up of the regional
19 municipality from which the candidates came, and that's what they did.
20 Q. Can you describe this document sent to you by the SAO of
21 Semberija and Majevica, the Assembly of the Municipality of Bijeljina
22 A. This is the delivery -- a delivery of the proposal of candidates
23 for judicial bodies in the territory of the municipality of Bijeljina
24 Q. What was the date?
25 A. The 5th of June, 1992, less than a month after my appointment,
Page 5019
1 and for the Basic Court in Bijeljina, the person nominated as president
2 of the Court is Judge Veselin Londrovic, and as judges, Vesna Stevanovic,
3 Mileva Lazarevic, Vera Medan, Dragomir Zivanovic.
4 Q. Can you just read out the names of those who are not Serbs?
5 A. Just a moment, Mr. President. Alma Salihbegovic,
6 Alida Nadj-Madjarac, Muhamed Gruhonjic, and Cviko Adamovic, all these
7 were non-Serbs.
8 Q. All right. What number is Cviko Adamovic?
9 A. Number 10.
10 Q. I know that Zvizdic was later appointed, but his name was crossed
11 out here. Could you tell us -- could you read out who the candidates for
12 prosecutors were?
13 A. Milosevic, Nadezda, in Bijeljina. And the deputies:
14 Dragica Ristic; Vinka Musladin; and Smail Salihbegovic. Dragica is a
15 Serb, and Vinka is a Croat, and Smail is a Muslim.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can this document be admitted?
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Actually, this represented the position of the local authorities
20 that are following your instructions regarding proportionate
21 representation; right?
22 A. In most regions, in most local communities, there wasn't any
23 particular resistance. But as you know, Mr. President, in some there
24 were -- there was quite a bit of resistance where representatives of
25 certain local organisations were opposed to this.
Page 5020
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: This will be Exhibit D417.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 1D2029, could we have that, please.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Let us see what happened afterwards. Now, your ministry collects
7 these proposals and send them to the Assembly, or, rather, the president
8 of the republic if the Assembly cannot meet; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Article 81, paragraph 2 of the Constitution, does it not read
11 that if the Assembly cannot meet, the Presidency or the president of the
12 republic passes a decision, and the MPs then have to confirm it at their
13 next session? If they violated the Constitution, then they have to
14 resign?
15 A. Yes. That is Article 81, paragraph 3 of the Constitution.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you read out here who was appointed judge?
17 A. Among those that we mentioned a moment ago, Dadj-Madjarac, that
18 is, and Zvizdic, Alisa.
19 Q. Alija?
20 A. It's barely legible.
21 Q. Alija Zvizdic, that is the Basic Court in Bijeljina, according to
22 the original proposal; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5021
1 Q. Actually, could you indicate to the Trial Chamber what this is
2 that we are going through?
3 A. These are parts of the Official Gazette of the Serb People. It
4 is the Official Gazette -- it is the Official Gazette of the Parliament,
5 or, rather, these are the decisions with the force of law, all the
6 decisions that are made by the Assembly, the Presidency, and the
7 government, and other state organs within their own provinces of work.
8 Q. And they enter into force once they're published in the
9 Official Gazette; right?
10 A. Basically, eight days after they're published in the
11 Official Gazette, unless stated otherwise.
12 Q. Thank you. This is the same number, number 10, dated the 30th of
13 June. Who was appointed in judge in Bijeljina?
14 A. Selihbegovic, Alija.
15 Q. I think it says "Alma
16 A. Sorry, my copy is barely legible and I couldn't really see.
17 Alma
18 Q. What is Alma
19 A. She is a Muslim.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Can we have the next page.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Can you tell us about Trebinje, the Basic Court in Trebinje? Who
24 was appointed there? Actually, I can read it out, if you want.
25 A. I'll try, Mr. President.
Page 5022
1 Maric, Miroslav, president. And judges are Ljiljana Simovic,
2 Rajko Kozjak, Milan
3 Q. They're Serbs; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Next two?
6 A. Ehliman Fetahagic.
7 Q. Ehliman?
8 A. And Zijad Campara.
9 Q. What are they, in terms of ethnicity?
10 A. Muslims.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can we have the next page, please. The next page.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Was Karabeglic, Frano, appointed judge in the Higher Court in
15 Trebinje?
16 A. Franjo has got to be a Croat.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can we have the third page after this one; that is to say, we
19 skipped two and then we move on to the third one after this.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. All right. This is a decision of the election of judges of the
22 Higher Court in Banja Luka.
23 Now could we have the next page in English as well, please.
24 Minister, can you tell us who it was that was elected judge of
25 the Higher Court in Banja Luka? Who are they; Kresimir, et cetera?
Page 5023
1 A. Kresimir, Djukic, is a Croat. Svjetlana Djordjevic Suput, Serb.
2 Branislav Kosic, Serb. Kovacek, Berislav, Croat. Kotlo, Suada, Muslim.
3 Zehra Kerenovic, Muslim. Asim Krupic, Muslim. Strahinja Djurkovic,
4 Serb. Jakl --
5 Q. Stanislav?
6 A. Stanislav, a Croat. Jeremic, Dusko, a Serb.
7 Q. Thank you. Can we just scroll down a bit. Adem Medic. Is
8 Adem Medic a Muslim?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can we have page 2, the second half. Actually, the second half
12 of this same page. So, yes, we'd like to see a different column.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. This is Ruzica Topic, what is she by ethnicity?
15 A. She's a Croat.
16 Q. Thank you. Zinaida Kadic, what about her?
17 A. Muslim ethnicity.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we have the next page in Serbian, and probably in English
20 too. The next page in Serbian and -- I see.
21 Could we scroll down a bit, the Serbian page.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Who was appointed deputy prosecutor?
24 A. Ibrahim Alagic.
25 Q. Is he a Muslim?
Page 5024
1 A. Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can this document be admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D418, Your Honour.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have -- actually, I beg
7 your pardon.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do we agree that I signed all of this, instead of the Assembly,
10 at your proposal; is that right?
11 A. Yes, and for the most part these proposals of mine, along with
12 your signatures -- or, rather, the decisions you made and signed, the
13 Assembly basically passed these decisions.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D3030
15 [as interpreted]. 2030, 1D2030. Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you give us your comment that relates to Vinka Musladin?
18 A. She was appointed deputy prosecutor in Bijeljina.
19 Q. And that is in accordance with the list that was proposed at
20 local level?
21 A. Yes. She is an ethnic Croat.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we now have the second column of this same page.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you give us your comment in this regard, the situation in
Page 5025
1 Bijeljina?
2 A. Salihbegovic, Osman -- Smail, rather, Smail.
3 Q. Salihbegovic, Smail; right?
4 A. Yes. Smajl Salihbegovic was appointed deputy public prosecutor
5 in Bijeljina.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Can we now scroll down a bit.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gluhonjic, Muhamed is appointed
9 judge of the Basic Court in Bijeljina.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can this be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D419, Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can I ask you, Minister, whether this number basically
16 corresponds to the number of Muslims and Croats in Bijeljina? There were
17 very few of them; right?
18 A. This is the pre-war situation. That is the ratio before the war,
19 yes.
20 Q. Although the war had been on for three months or whatever, you
21 continue with these proposals that reflect the ethnic composition of the
22 population?
23 A. The pre-war composition or structure, yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2063, could we have that, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5026
1 Q. Is this the Official Gazette of the Serb People in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated the 13th of July? Actually, if that was the
3 10th of June and then the 30th of June and now it's the 13th of July,
4 that means that it's two weeks after that last one?
5 A. Yes, a bit more than two weeks.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at page 18
7 of this document.
8 Can we scroll down a bit. Can we look at the middle of the
9 second paragraph. We're interested in Trebinje.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. As far as I can see, this confirms the appointment of
12 Ehliman Fetahagic and Zijad Campara; is that right?
13 A. Yes, yes. This is was published in the Official Gazette of the
14 Serb People.
15 Q. All this took place while I was still signing all of these
16 documents, while the Assembly was not meeting?
17 A. Yes. That is what you're supposed to do on the basis of the
18 Constitution when there is an imminent threat of war.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can this document be admitted?
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 1D2061, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5027
1 Q. Minister, now I am not dealing with things in strictly
2 chronological order. I would like to focus on the subject of the
3 judicial system, and you would be the best person to ask, as far as 1992
4 is concerned, because you're the person who sent me these proposals;
5 right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this the Official Gazette dated the 10th of August, 1992?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly have page 5 to
10 identify what it is, and then page 6, please. The second half, fine,
11 that will do. No, one page ahead.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This is what we are interested in, the decision on the election
14 of judges of the Higher Court in Banja Luka.
15 Could you scroll up a bit so that the minister can see 391 in its
16 entirety.
17 Do you remember this?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. It's the 10th of August again, and are the decisions on the
22 election of: Djukic, Kresimir, a Croat; Berislav Kovacek, a Croat; Suada
23 Kotlo, a Muslim; Zehra Kerenovic, a Muslim; Asim Krupic, a Muslim; and
24 Medic, Adem, a Muslim? Are they reconfirmed again, just like
25 Zinaida Kadic; are they reconfirmed as judges of the High Court of
Page 5028
1 Banja Luka?
2 A. Ruzica Topic as well, yes.
3 Q. Ruzica Topic is a Croat lady?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Can we have the next page of this document. Can we just scroll
7 down a bit. That's fine.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you cast a glance at these deputy public prosecutors in
10 Banja Luka, including Alagic, Ibrahim? I don't know about the rest,
11 whether they're all Serbs, but Ibrahim Alagic is a Muslim; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can this document be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification, again, pending
16 translation.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
18 JUDGE KWON: But we'll translate only the part that was referred
19 to. Are you fine with this, Mr. Tieger? We don't have to translate all
20 the other parts in the Official Gazette?
21 MR. TIEGER: I think that would be unduly burdensome,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That would apply to the Official Gazette
24 we dealt with previously?
25 MR. TIEGER: I answered, I guess, in the abstract, Your Honour.
Page 5029
1 But I understand we may have a complete translation for the document you
2 were referring to, so perhaps it's more useful if we confirm the
3 existence, and then the Court can make a decision based on whether or not
4 a translation already exists.
5 JUDGE KWON: Items published in the Official Gazette usually are
6 separate matters, I take it, but --
7 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, I -- in the normal course of business, I
8 agree. I mean, it seemed that Dr. Karadzic was interested in this
9 particular section. That would normally be the portion of a document
10 like this, which is segmented in precisely the way the Court indicated,
11 that would be translated. But it did seem fair to let the Court and
12 Dr. Karadzic know that a translation -- full translation was available.
13 But since other separate items of the Gazette don't seem to be at issue,
14 it seems to be not relevant for this purpose at the moment.
15 JUDGE KWON: I'm not clear. You want the entire translation of
16 this document?
17 MR. TIEGER: I had understood that the entire -- that the --
18 sorry, let me step back. If Dr. Karadzic is tendering just that segment,
19 then I think the answer is clear to everyone. I had understood, however,
20 that it seemed that the entire Gazette was being submitted. I didn't
21 know -- and then I thought the translation issue might be the one
22 obstacle to its admission, so I wanted to alert the Court to the
23 existence of that translation. I'm not suggesting that the remainder --
24 or that the Gazette should be admitted in its entirety. That seems to be
25 the decision at the moment of the Defence, but I don't have any
Page 5030
1 objections to the admission of such a document, if he's tendering it.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
3 I take it, Mr. Karadzic, that your position is that you're
4 tendering only the part that you referred to today in this
5 Official Gazette, which is of 36 pages.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, for reasons of
7 economy, and we are on this subject now and Mr. Mandic was the minister
8 who directly sent this proposal, but the Defence has nothing against all
9 the documents of the government and the Assembly and the Presidency being
10 treated as exhibits on condition that we know that and that we prepare
11 ourselves accordingly. All these documents are at the disposal of all,
12 but for the time being the Defence is happy with just this subject. But
13 when we treat another subject, we will probably be revisiting some other
14 parts of these same Official Gazettes.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well, thank you.
16 We admitted only those parts referred to during the session, and
17 on that -- with that understanding, we'll carry on.
18 Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Can we now have 65 ter 5587.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Until we get it, Mr. Minister, let me ask you this: Do you agree
23 that there were quite a few tensions in the field on account of the
24 arrival of the dead and also because people who lived with us there had
25 their relatives in the adversary's army?
Page 5031
1 A. I'm not familiar with the details, but there were quite a few
2 tensions in the field.
3 Q. Namely, was this a highly-risky action; namely, appointing judges
4 and prosecutors who were Muslims and Croats, while dead people who had
5 been killed by the Muslim and Croatian Army were coming in?
6 A. There were resistances in some parts of the republic. In fact,
7 even at the Assembly sessions, certain MPs voiced their dissatisfaction
8 at my proposals and the fact that you signed the appointment of certain
9 officials who were non-Serbs. I believe that we have already seen so far
10 that in several instances, some appointments were postponed until talks
11 were held with those who were against such appointments; namely, until
12 the opponents of these proposals were persuaded that that was the right
13 course of action.
14 Q. Thank you. Let us identify this. This is the 19th Session of
15 the Serbian People, held on the 19th of August, 1992, in Banja Luka;
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Does Momcilo Mandic -- in other words, do you propose here on the
19 first page the inclusion on the agenda the item -- the agenda item of
20 election and appointment of judges in the Lower Court in Banja Luka
21 A. Yes. I asked for you to be skipped over and for the Assembly to
22 directly decide on the election of judicial officials.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can we now see page 2032, 0410-2032. That will be perhaps
25 page 14 of this. In the Serbian language, in the top there is an ERN
Page 5032
1 number. One of the experts of the OTP misinterpreted here
2 Mr. Vito Popovic.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Who is Vitomir Popovic, Mr. Minister?
5 A. At the time, he was the president of the Lower Court in
6 Banja Luka, and later he was to become the vice-premier, the vice-prime
7 minister, et cetera.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 This is the Serbian page, and in English we have to look for it.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. The discussion surrounds the selection, and some are against the
12 election of judges whose next of kin are somewhere in the enemy's army.
13 And here is what Mr. Popovic says on the topic -- will you interpret this
14 as --
15 A. Vito Popovic is trying to persuade -- do you want me to read it
16 or to re-tell it?
17 Q. I believe it is better for you to re-tell it and the participants
18 can read it, if they so like?
19 A. Vito Popovic as the president of the Lower Court in Banja Luka
20 which covers a huge territory and quite a few inhabitants; insists that
21 at least 50 per cent of the judges be elected in order for the judicial
22 system to be able to function. And if certain MPs from the Banja Luka
23 region insisted that no non-Serb judges are elected, he proposes that the
24 elections and appointments be postponed. But in order for the judiciary
25 to be able to function -- to elect at least those judges and prosecutors
Page 5033
1 around him, there is no controversy at that session, because there were
2 already quite a few people in detention who needed to be processed.
3 Q. Towards the end --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Will the speakers please not overlap.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Where it says "5 per cent." Towards the end of the Serbian
7 version, before that, one sentence before that.
8 A. I apologise:
9 "It should be stated that then in talking with representatives of
10 the Ministry of Justice of our republic, we agreed to go ahead with the
11 election on national structure basis, but that that number should be
12 considerably reduced. Bearing in mind the ethnic representation, we
13 propose that there should be 5 per cent of judges of other ethnicity."
14 Q. Thank you. We agree that Mr. Popovic did not want to discuss, on
15 a political basis, the respective shares, but insisted that at least
16 those around whom there was no dispute be elected immediately so that the
17 cases which were pending could be processed; is that what you said?
18 A. Yes, that is what I said.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 16 in English.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Now the MPs are voting, and it is quite a fight. Can you tell us
22 what the number 13 is about? That is 2036. In the Serbian language, it
23 was 2032, and now it is four pages further, 2036. One page before that,
24 13.
25 A. "Zoran Lipovac, a Croat," is under number 13.
Page 5034
1 Q. Read it, please.
2 A. "Who is in favour? We have to count. It seems that we all are.
3 Two against. And I know that Zoran Lipovac has been elected."
4 Q. And the one under him, below?
5 A. Also a Croat, but he was not elected.
6 Q. Boris Markovic?
7 A. "Who is in favour? Who is against? All. Any abstentions? Two.
8 I know that Boris Markovic has not been elected judge."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now see the next
10 page in Serbian and page 18 in English.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. We see that some were not elected, and that was as a result of
13 the resistances offered. And in view of the fact that one Croat was
14 elected and the other one was not, these resistances were not motivated
15 ethnically, but rather were on a personal basis?
16 A. Yes, and I have testified in respect of this topic very
17 extensively in the Stanisic case, when Ms. Korner examined me.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the Serbian version,
19 2038; in other words, the next page.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. "In view of the fact that some were elected, whereas others were
22 not, this is my intervention, and would you be so kind as to read that
23 intervention of mine, and after that, the response to that of
24 Mr. Krajisnik, the Assembly president.
25 A. "Dr. Karadzic: I believe I need to say something not only about
Page 5035
1 this proposal, but about the principle of the matter, if I may. Look, as
2 we have said yesterday, we have to see whether he or she is an
3 appropriate person. But as far as other nations are concerned, we have
4 to have a percentage, a proportion, consistent with that in the municipal
5 authorities. We have to be responsible. We are creating a state. You
6 are the organ creating it. The state must be created swiftly and well.
7 It has to have all its elements in order to survive and to remain as a
8 state."
9 Q. Thank you. And the last sentence, please?
10 A. "And because it is able to, it should make it of all its
11 ingredients."
12 Q. What I mean is because the Serbian people is capable of doing
13 that, it should compose its state of all its ingredients and elements.
14 What does this mean?
15 A. It means that the national mix should be adequate at all levels
16 of authority in the Republika Srpska.
17 Q. Do you remember this contribution of mine, because this was your
18 department?
19 A. Yes, I do, and I remember that some MPs from the Krajina actually
20 attacked you on that score.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you read what the presiding -- the president,
22 actually Mr. Krajisnik, said?
23 A. "The president: Radovan, let me explain. Nobody rejects them
24 because they are not good or because they are Muslims or Croats. Simply,
25 the policy is such that we have to make our options now because we are in
Page 5036
1 a state of civil war. They will lose this number of judges, and when the
2 war is over they will be -- when the conditions are created, they will be
3 elected."
4 Q. Does this actually show that when the conditions are created --
5 when adequate conditions are created, when the fighting dies down,
6 et cetera, that there will be elections?
7 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, Mr. Krajisnik's position was that
8 we should talk to those MPs who withheld their consent for members who
9 were non-Serbs -- for non-Serbs to be elected to these offices and for
10 the Assembly to be prepared, in a way, to respect the ethnic mix of the
11 different regions and have it reflected adequately in the judicial
12 system, in the offices within the judicial system.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Can this document be adopted -- admitted? I believe that it has
15 been admitted in toto as a transcript, but ...
16 JUDGE KWON: It hasn't been admitted, to my knowledge. We'll
17 admit it in its entirety.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D422, Your Honours.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you notice, Minister, when I'm asking for the floor, I'm
21 asking if I may say, which indicates that the Assembly is a body
22 independent of the president of the republic and it's the legislative
23 branch of authority?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there any way for the president to impose on the Presidency
Page 5037
1 his opinion or an arrangement?
2 A. To the Assembly, no.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to 65 ter 30413.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I believe this is the intercepted conversation between me and
6 Mr. Kupresanin of 9 November 1991
7 A. Yes, that's the Vojo Kupresanin we discussed before.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you read this line where I say: "Please"?
11 A. "Radovan Karadzic: Please, nobody approached me, and nobody got
12 permission from me to change the decision of the Assembly. I don't have
13 that right. Nobody has the right to change it."
14 Q. Is this consistent with your knowledge that the president of the
15 republic honoured the Assembly as the highest legislative body in the
16 country?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can we MFI
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI D423.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 30519.
23 Sorry, 30591. It was a slip of the tongue. That's it in Serbian.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. This is already in February of 1992, the 10th of February.
Page 5038
1 Again, Kupresanin and Karadzic; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 4 in Serbian and
4 English.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Towards the bottom, it says: "Please ..."
7 A. "Radovan Karadzic: Come on. It's not just the smarts. There
8 are also obligations. One of our MPs, he's the supreme authority in the
9 Assembly of the Serbian People, and when the Assembly of the Serbian
10 People decide something, Brdo cannot do any different. He cannot. And
11 if he does do any different, he's not loyal, he's doing the work of a
12 traitor, whether he likes it or not. I cannot -- no longer continue to
13 be such a great democrat as to tolerate this, because he can do real
14 damage. If he couldn't, I wouldn't care."
15 Q. Is this also part of the struggle for democratic decisions to be
16 enforced, and I should have even been firmer than I actually was, more
17 adamant?
18 A. Can you rephrase that question to make it a bit clearer?
19 Q. Does this intercept reflect that I was fighting for
20 democratically-made decisions to be implemented, and that I should have
21 perhaps been even more adamant in this effort?
22 A. I can only note that you are trying to prevail upon
23 Vojo Kupresanin that the man in question had to abide by the Assembly's
24 decisions.
25 Q. It says:
Page 5039
1 "I can no longer be such a great democrat as to tolerate this."
2 Was I responsible for the enforcement of decisions taken in such
3 a democratic way?
4 A. As the president of the party or the president of the republic?
5 Q. Well, it's 1992 already, but it's before the outbreak of the war,
6 and I'm co-ordinating the work of the party. Am I responsible for the
7 implementation of decisions that had been taken in a democratic way?
8 A. I can only read this as your effort to persuade the MPs that they
9 had to honour the decisions of the Assembly, whereas one person
10 here - what was his name? - Vukic or something, he is refusing to abide
11 by these decisions made by the Assembly.
12 Q. Thank you. And do you agree that I'm considering the Assembly as
13 the supreme authority?
14 A. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can we get 65 ter 01000.
17 Was this document before MFI
18 JUDGE KWON: I don't think so. We'll mark it for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I now ask you to look at this document, which is accompanied this
22 time by a translation, this passage where Radovan Karadzic says: "Ladies
23 and gentlemen ...," but in English it would be page 2. From the words:
24 "We hope ..."
25 A. "We hope that the representatives are getting more active in
Page 5040
1 municipalities, because as we concluded last time, a representative is an
2 authority for us, the party ... parties are a service to the elected
3 people, the people, and to people elected by the people to carry out the
4 political will of the people. Party officials are not the authority."
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the next page.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The authority for us are primarily
7 MPs, representatives, and the rest."
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Does this also confirm that the party provides a service? It
10 cannot govern; it only helps the elected organs and officials to exercise
11 the power given them by the people in the elections?
12 A. You are explaining here that the representatives in the Assembly
13 and deputies in local parliaments are the people who are exercising
14 power, the people who govern in the branches of power to which they were
15 elected.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 1 just to identify
17 this document.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is an extended session, that is, a plenary session, of the
20 main and executive boards of the SDS
21 Holiday Inn Hotel. Do you agree that the Main Board cannot be expanded,
22 just a session can be expanded by including additional people?
23 A. I'm not familiar with the statute of the party, so I can't
24 answer.
25 Q. I meant the Presidency. If a presidency is holding an expanded
Page 5041
1 session, that doesn't mean that the Presidency, itself, has expanded; it
2 just invited guests and observers and other people to attend the session?
3 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, I'd like to object to that.
4 First of all, I don't know what kind of opinion Dr. Karadzic is
5 seeking from this witness, because we've strayed from this document to an
6 expert opinion on the Main Board about which this witness claims not to
7 have expertise, and now we're moving on to the Presidency and an opinion
8 about that. So -- and that's from Mr. Mandic, who assured me he didn't
9 want to testify as an expert.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree, but I remember having heard from the
11 witness as to the meaning of the extended sitting -- expanded session.
12 But let's carry on, Mr. Karadzic.
13 But on a separate note, I was wondering why this document was
14 titled as "Intercept."
15 MR. TIEGER: It's a recording, Your Honour. I think -- I don't
16 think it should be -- I agree it's not -- obviously, it's not a telephone
17 conversation, and so to that extent it would seem to be a misleading
18 designation. But I think it's somehow tied to the fact that it's a
19 recording.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. As far as the Presidency --
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE KWON: I was informed that part of this exhibit has already
25 admitted as P12, so this will be added to that.
Page 5042
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The gentleman is a lawyer --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
5 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: I was just going to say in keeping with -- this is a
7 session of the Deputy's Club, very closely linked to the Assembly. I
8 would think in keeping with the approach that we've adopted recently, it
9 might make more sense to have this session tendered in its entirety
10 rather than keep accumulating excerpts.
11 JUDGE KWON: It's 30 pages now. We'll admit it in its entirety,
12 unless it is objected to. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection.
14 JUDGE KWON: So we'll change the P12 to compose of every
15 document, if that's feasible by the Registry.
16 With that understanding, we'll move on.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] English page 10, please.
18 While we're waiting, I just wanted to say that Mr. Mandic has a
19 degree in law and he knows how the Presidency may be changed; only by
20 constitutional amendment.
21 This is a plenary session of the party, which we see that
22 representatives of municipal boards and others have been invited to
23 attend. That's what the plenary session --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The plenary session is a general
25 session, as it says.
Page 5043
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian, it's 203 [as
2 interpreted]. The one we had now was 2217, and we now need 2203.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Towards the bottom, it says: "Another problem that cropped
5 up ...," below "Vukic," below the name "Vukic."
6 A. "Another problem that cropped up is that the power is alienated
7 from the party. That's a catastrophic problem. We can't allow for that.
8 Presidents of municipalities, presidents of the executive boards, some,
9 at least, not all, do not care much for MPs, and they should. Their MP
10 is the supreme authority in their locality. He's part of the highest
11 supreme body, and he's a member of the Serbian Assembly of the common
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina."
13 Q. Next page in Serbian.
14 A. "He is a member of the largest authority and a member of the
15 Serbian Assembly, and he is also part of the Municipal Representatives
16 Club."
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get page 20 now. English
18 page 20 and Serbian page 2211.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Could you read the part where it says:
21 "500.000 Serbs, that's not the exercise of rights by the people.
22 A million people remain outside Krajina, and we have to agree amongst
23 ourselves."
24 A. "We have to agree. If this policy is no good, then the
25 Main Board has to decide so today, that it's no good, that it's leading
Page 5044
1 into a dead-end, that so far not a single objective has been attained,
2 and then let's change the leadership."
3 Q. Let's see the next page, and you can continue.
4 A. "It will, it will. I will be grateful. You will not accept me.
5 Will you give me a decoration or something. I will be an honorary member
6 or something, because I was the first president of the party, and I'll be
7 happy and grateful to move forward with the new policy. If there is an
8 alternative policy and you are offering it, and we are not implementing
9 it, then we deserve to be replaced."
10 Q. Can you go a bit further down?
11 A. "The supreme body of power of the Serbian people in Bosnia
12 Herzegovina
13 Q. Do you remember that at this time, the
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina Conference has been underway for quite a while,
15 presided by Mr. Cutileiro?
16 A. That was the month of February, when the Cutileiro Plan was being
17 implemented and when the Sarajevo Agreement and the Lisbon Agreement were
18 topical.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All of this document has been
20 admitted, hasn't it?
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you agree, Minister, that both as the president of the party,
24 even without any state office, and later as president of the republic, I
25 am trying to get decisions made by the Assembly implemented, I'm trying
Page 5045
1 not to allow anyone to change them willfully?
2 A. From what I can see in this text, you have a problem with
3 Brdjanin and some other MPs, and you are trying to prevail upon them that
4 they have to be part of the Serbian Assembly and part of the
5 Joint Assembly, and that they have to work to implement the decisions
6 made by the Assembly majority.
7 Q. It wasn't recorded, but I'd like you to confirm or deny that I
8 wasn't always successful in pushing my proposals.
9 A. Yes. More than once your proposals were not accepted.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 1D192, could I have that now, please.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This is a topic that we dealt with, creating a state based on
14 rule of law, creating a judicial system on that basis, then our struggle
15 in the Assembly and in the field to have this carried through.
16 Now let us see how the state organs are operating, apart from all
17 of our interventions.
18 Can you tell us who Mr. Dobro Planojevic is?
19 A. Dobro Planojevic is a policeman.
20 Q. He is not politically involved, he's not a member of the SDS
21 is a policeman inside-out; is that it, in a nutshell?
22 A. Dobro Planojevic was a police cadet in Vraca and had joined the
23 police force when he was 15.
24 Q. Does this bear the date of the 8th of June, 1992?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5046
1 Q. May I remind you that I issued an order that we already discussed
2 about observing international norms and the Geneva Conventions on the
3 13th of June, 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. However, as you said, perhaps that was necessary for the sake of
6 authority in the area. However, let us have a look at this. Did state
7 organs act that way, even without that? So can you please read this,
8 this part that starts with: "Over the past two months ...," et cetera?
9 A. "Over the past two months, since the war broke out in the
10 territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, there has been a considerable
11 increase in the commission of crimes, property-related crimes, war
12 profiteering --"
13 JUDGE KWON: Do you have a translation?
14 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, 18395.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we then have both
16 versions on the screen.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. If you wish, have a look at this, and then interpret it for us.
19 You don't really need to read out the entire text, because the
20 participants can do that on their own.
21 A. Dobro Planojevic is informing the CSB of Banja Luka, as assistant
22 minister for crime-related affairs. He is speaking about war
23 profiteering and other crimes, and also the commission of war crimes, and
24 he is asking for persons who committed war crimes to be handed over to
25 the judiciary or the military police. He is also asking for
Page 5047
1 documentation of criminal activity, as he says, both of groups and
2 individuals, and also he's demanding their urgent arrest.
3 Q. Please go on. What else does he say? He is also drawing
4 attention to what? That's the second part.
5 A. "Inter alia, could corpses be photographed and, wherever
6 possible, post-mortems, because in these wartime conditions you will
7 encounter many obstacles in your battle against crime, and you will
8 sometimes be unable to take adequate measures. In such cases, all
9 findings should be properly recorded in the form of official notes so
10 that necessary measures or criminal prosecution could be taken
11 subsequently."
12 Q. Can you continue?
13 A. "We take this opportunity to emphasise that the civilian
14 population and prisoners of war should be treated in strict compliance
15 with the regulations of international law of war."
16 Q. Then there is his signature, and what does Stojan Zupljanin add
17 to this?
18 A. I can't see that. Could you scroll down a bit?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you scroll down a bit. I
20 believe it's the next page in English.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It is necessary for all authorised
22 officials of the Public Security Service to be familiarised with the
23 content of this dispatch and to observe the instructions from this
24 dispatch in your further activities."
25 Signed by chief of centre, Stojan Zupljanin.
Page 5048
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Minister, do you know that to this day in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
3 proceedings are underway on the basis of criminal reports that were filed
4 by our organs during the war?
5 A. I don't know whether this is still underway, but I know that
6 proceedings were carried out for a long time on the basis of these
7 reports, considerably after the crimes were committed.
8 Q. Are you trying to say that this set of instructions of
9 Dobro Planojevic, namely, that if you cannot prosecute, then provide
10 proper documentation and matters will be dealt with later? Was that
11 actually carried out?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know that in the Muslim area in Bihac, Serbs are being
14 tried on the basis of our criminal reports?
15 A. No, I am not aware of that.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then on some other
17 occasion, we are going to show these judgements that are based on our
18 criminal reports.
19 Can this be admitted into evidence?
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, whose document is this? Is this
21 document signed by Planojevic, or Mr. Zupljanin, or by both?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document of
23 Dobro Planojevic, assistant minister for crime prevention. And the
24 amendment is written by Stojan Zupljanin. That is to say, he said that
25 that document needs to be observed in terms of further activities.
Page 5049
1 JUDGE KWON: Who was in a higher position, in terms of hierarchy?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Dobro Planojevic was
3 the first-ranking. He informed by a dispatch the chief of the centre of
4 security Services in the area of Banja Luka who is lower ranking but
5 encompasses a number of security stations in some ten municipalities.
6 But Dobro Planojevic, as the high-ranking, gave these instructions to the
7 chief. He then passed on these instructions to all his subordinates that
8 they should act in accordance with instructions of Dobro Planojevic;
9 namely, he lowered it to the municipal level, to the field level.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 If it is convenient, we'll have a break.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, just to clarify, just one
13 sentence, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the central authorities, a
16 dispatch was sent to the region and from the regional level to the
17 municipal level, to the municipalities.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Yes, we will admit this.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D425, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Twenty-five minutes. We'll resume at 10 to 6.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.54 p.m.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.
Page 5050
1 [Interpretation] May I have 1D191, please. 1D191.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. While we're waiting for this, Minister, let me ask you whether
4 the police was duty-bound to report to me about their regular activities
5 if they had no special problem.
6 A. No, they reported to the government, or, rather, the
7 prime minister.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you please cast a glance at this, then, further
9 down. It's the 8th of June, isn't it? And you can perhaps tell the
10 Trial Chamber and all the participants what this actually is.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: 01083, Your Honour, will enable us to find a
13 translation.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have both version on the
16 screen, please. Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. We don't need to read out every word, but could you please
19 explain to the Trial Chamber what this is, especially the five points?
20 A. Through the Serb agency "SRNA," you are addressing all the
21 relevant factors in the Government of the Republika Srpska.
22 Number 1, you are asking all the local authorities and prominent
23 individuals of Serb ethnicity to ensure protection and care for all
24 wounded and ill individuals, regardless of which side they belong to.
25 What they mean here is which warring party they belong to. Also, to
Page 5051
1 humanely treat all persons. Also, that the civilian population be spared
2 of all attacks. Also, to provide protection and all possible aid to
3 refugees and to respect the Red Cross sign and to use that sign only for
4 markings on medical personnel, hospitals and ambulances.
5 Q. Can you look at the last -- the last sentence. And it's the next
6 page in English.
7 A. "We are renewing our call for the resumption of the activities of
8 the International Red Cross and the protection of all civilians of all
9 nations, as well as prisoners of war."
10 Q. Thank you. Since communications were down, was this perhaps the
11 only way to send the positions of the state authorities to all parts of
12 the country? Was anything else possible?
13 A. I don't know whether anything else was possible, but I know that
14 at the beginning of the war, all communications were down.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Can this be admitted into evidence?
17 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, we'll admit it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D426, Your Honours.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 171, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. This is a government session held on the 8th of June; isn't that
22 right, Minister?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. I would like to have all the participants focus on
25 this.
Page 5052
1 Now we'd like to look at page 2 in both languages, I think.
2 Do you agree that there are no more government sessions held
3 together with the National Security Council; there is not a single such
4 case once there was a normal Assembly life?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you look at paragraph 2?
7 A. "It was concluded that during the course of the day, the
8 ministries should prepare a questionnaire on the basis of which the
9 situation in the field could be examined so as to provide --"
10 Q. "For uniformity"?
11 A. "... uniformity and insight into the real situation in the
12 municipalities, that the regulation on apartments should be prepared
13 immediately, that is, the regulations about moving Serb people who are
14 left without accommodation into deserted houses and flats. Among other
15 things, the regulations should state that temporary decrees should be
16 issued as soon as possible; that before moving in, a committee should
17 make a list of all property; and that the property and facilities should
18 be taken care of," and so on.
19 Q. Thank you. Does the government still have to deal with the
20 situation in which they don't know what is happening in the
21 municipalities, the municipalities are practically state-lets in their
22 own right, and does it state here that all property has been recorded by
23 these commissions or committees and only temporarily made available for
24 the use of other persons; right?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5053
1 Q. Do you agree that this was the situation that made it necessary
2 to establish the Office of Commissioners of the Central Authorities so
3 that they could tour municipalities and inform them of what was going on,
4 and also they should inform the government about what was happening?
5 A. In my view, that was one of the reasons why crisis staffs were
6 supposed to be dismantled.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can this be admitted?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D427, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can we have 65 ter 114.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. May I tell you that this is yet another expanded meeting of the
15 War Presidency. It's not the War Presidency, actually, because we
16 haven't declared a state of war. And it is held on the 9th of June, so
17 can we identify this, and then could you look at that first and second
18 paragraph, General Mladic and General Gvero?
19 A. This meeting was held on the 9th of June, 1992, and
20 General Mladic briefed the Presidency in detail about the overall
21 situation in the Serb Army, and he presented figures on the quantities of
22 weapons, ammunition, spare parts, reserves of oil and oil products, food
23 and other reserves:
24 "General Gvero reported on the situation in the area of the
25 Banja Luka Corps and proposed that authorities be established at all
Page 5054
1 levels swiftly because of the widespread crimes."
2 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that all heavy artillery activities
3 should be stopped and that a strong unit should be sent to help the units
4 around Sarajevo
5 Now I'd like to ask you whether you agree that our supremacy, in
6 terms of the number of weapons, was the only such element in terms of the
7 balance of strategic forces around Sarajevo
8 A. I really cannot follow this, and I did not know what the
9 situation in the army was.
10 Q. This is what I'm putting to you: Since a decision is being made
11 to stop the use of artillery, it is stated in paragraph 4 that a unit has
12 to come from Krajina in order to keep the situation as it is, in terms of
13 the Serb neighbourhoods, because if there would be an exclusion of heavy
14 artillery, they would beat us. So that is why this unit had to come from
15 Krajina, if there is an exclusion of heavy artillery; right?
16 A. Mr. President, this is a meeting of the expanded War Presidency.
17 These are minutes from that meeting, and I can only interpret this on the
18 basis of what you've just put to me. I, personally, was not aware of the
19 military situation around Sarajevo
20 Q. Thank you. And do you agree that -- oh, all right, we're not
21 going to deal with that subject.
22 Do you agree that in the beginning of June, the young people of
23 Pale got killed in Zepa after a deception of the municipal authorities of
24 the Muslims in Zepa? They had promised them safe passage, and then they
25 killed all of them. Was there a funeral held at Pale?
Page 5055
1 A. I know about that incident because there was a big funeral of all
2 these young people at Pale.
3 Q. Such mass funerals of Serb fighters, did they aggravate tensions
4 and did they lead to fear amongst the Muslim population? Do you know
5 about that or -- and is that only natural?
6 A. Well, when things like this happened, of course, the other side
7 was afraid that there would be revenge, and there was fear on all three
8 sides that were at war.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you read out what we decided; paragraph 6?
10 A. Paragraph 6:
11 "That mass burials of dead soldiers be banned and condolences to
12 their families be expressed in a dignified way."
13 Q. Thank you. There is some information here about how the airport
14 was handed over and so on, but could you please read 11?
15 A. "Write up instructions for the Serb Army to observe the
16 Geneva Conventions when treating prisoners of war."
17 Q. This is the 9th of June, and my order was issued on the 13th of
18 June; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you agree that when there was a lack of communication and
21 there were hardly any media, this had nothing to do with propaganda; this
22 was a substantive matter?
23 A. Yes, this was life, itself, at the seat of the Government of
24 Republika Srpska.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 5056
1 Can this be admitted?
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D428, Your Honour.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 172, that's the 65 ter number I'd like to have now, please.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is this document minutes from the government meeting held on the
8 same day as the Presidency session?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please read 1(a)?
11 A. "Order of the Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners."
12 Q. And then under AD-1, "Re-1," under A?
13 A. The government has supported the text of the order of the Central
14 Commission for the Exchange of the Prisoners.
15 Q. You said that the commission was a government organ and we can
16 see from this that it also issued orders?
17 A. The order was issued by the Central Commission and it was signed
18 by Mr. Colovic. And as we have noted already, the Central Commission was
19 a government organ, a body, a governmental body.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in
21 Serbian, please.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Under B, can you tell us what it is?
24 A. "The government acknowledged the letter of the president of the
25 Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners. It was concluded that
Page 5057
1 the minister of justice should conduct a talk with Rajko Colovic, the
2 president of the commission, to establish what the motives are for asking
3 for a replacement, and that if reasons for dismissal are justified, the
4 above-named shall continue to perform the duty of president of commission
5 until a new president of the commission is appointed."
6 Q. Now: "The government has noted ..." Can you just re-tell us
7 that paragraph?
8 A. At that time, as I've said in my testimony in the Stanisic case,
9 and I fully stand by what I said then, the observed problem -- the
10 problem with the exchange of prisoners appeared throughout the area of
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the government set up an independent
12 governmental body which had the power to set up regional and municipal
13 commissions which were under it. The lists were to be centralised so
14 there would be comprehensive informing on both warring sides.
15 Mr. Rajko Colovic was elected, I believe, at the proposal of the
16 prime minister, and the other two members were from the line ministries.
17 I think one was from the Ministry of the Interior, and the Ministry of
18 Justice, and I'm not sure which other ministry.
19 Q. And it's stated here that these were delicate matters, that
20 instructions should be prepared to incorporate international regulations,
21 et cetera?
22 A. Yes, I've just said so.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can this document be admitted?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this has been admitted as
Page 5058
1 Exhibit P1091.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can we have 65 ter 11024.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record, this is
6 Exhibit P1090.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent. Then we do not have to
8 tender it.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This is from the 6th of June, 1992, the Central Commission for
11 the Exchange of Captured Persons, and it is stated here "Serbian Republic
12 of Bosnia-Herzegovina Central Commission." It is not considered to be
13 under the government at all, but it is an independent body; is that
14 correct?
15 A. Yes, I stated that this was an independent governmental body.
16 I've said so -- that many times.
17 Q. What remains unclear here, and it has been presented by the
18 Prosecution -- can we see the next page, in fact?
19 Can we see the next page in Serbian, too?
20 What remains unclear is the situation or the fate of
21 able-bodied -- can I ask you to focus on this part which begins with:
22 "Svezene" [phoen] up to the part with "legislation and captives"? Can
23 you read that part and interpret it?
24 A. "All women whose prisoners -- who are prisoners --"
25 THE INTERPRETER: Just a second. I'm sorry, but the interpreter
Page 5059
1 is unable to find the corresponding paragraph in English, or in Serbian,
2 for that matter.
3 JUDGE KWON: So first we need to find out the passage in the
4 document, and if you could repeat reading again. But for the benefit of
5 the interpreters, Mr. Karadzic, could you identify the passage?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the fourth paragraph from the
7 top, and in the English version, it is the last passage on this side
8 which we now -- on this page which we now see.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "All women whose captivity, either
10 deprivation of freedom, is not associated with war operations so is not
11 connected to war operations, children and minors up to 16 years old, old,
12 infirm, and sick persons, should be immediately released and ensured safe
13 movement according to their expressed wishes, without any conditions
14 being set to them or exchanges."
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, but this is not the
16 right English page.
17 It is now there, which starts with "All women ..."
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Tell us, on what grounds could somebody be arrested if they were
20 not prisoners of war? Were there any other grounds for arresting people?
21 A. Well, that was part of the regular, routine criminal procedure.
22 If someone was suspected of having committed a crime, they would be --
23 that would be grounds for their arrest.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, can you read this paragraph or interpret it for
25 us, the one which says: "All persons ..."
Page 5060
1 [In English] "All persons have to be granted ..."
2 A. "All persons have to be ensured freedom of movement, of removal
3 according to their wishes, if that does not mean jeopardising personal or
4 general safety."
5 Q. And the next one, please.
6 A. "Persons taken prisoners and persons deprived of liberty, against
7 whom criminal proceedings have been instituted, shall not be subject of
8 this order, but the provisions of the Criminal Code shall be applicable."
9 Q. So it depends on the actual criminal offence, what shall be
10 applicable.
11 Can I now ask you, Mr. Minister, whether our law distinguishes
12 between domicile and address, and can you explain the difference?
13 A. Domicile or permanent address is where someone is permanently
14 residing, whereas an address, a place of residence, is a place where
15 someone is registered and stays for a while.
16 Q. So it is where a person stays for a longer time?
17 A. Yes, where a person stays for a longer time and where all his
18 documents are; of the person in question, in other words.
19 Q. I believe that there is something wrong in the -- actually, the
20 domicile is the permanent resident; right?
21 A. Yes, that's what I explained.
22 Q. And temporary residence or temporary address is where one stays
23 on a temporary basis; right?
24 A. I am currently temporarily residing in The Hague, and my
25 permanent residence is in Belgrade
Page 5061
1 Q. So if someone is asking for the change of a temporary residence,
2 does this mean moving out on a permanent basis or is this just a
3 temporary, interim relocation of the person in question?
4 A. This is temporary relocation, so temporary residence is a
5 temporary category, and it is delineated in terms of time.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 This has already been admitted, and we need not deal with it any
8 further.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
10 Mr. Mandic, could you read that passage again for us which starts
11 with: "All women ...," which you read some minutes ago?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "All women -- all women whose
13 detention or deprivation of liberty is not related to war or war
14 activities, and children and minors up to 16 years of age, old, and
15 infirm persons, should be released immediately and their safe movement
16 enabled, according to their expressed wishes, without any conditions
17 being set or any exchange."
18 JUDGE KWON: In relation to this passage, you were asked by
19 Mr. Karadzic:
20 "On what grounds could somebody be arrested if they were not
21 prisoners of war? Were there any other grounds for arresting people?"
22 And your answer was:
23 "Well, this was part of the regular, routine criminal procedure.
24 If someone was suspected of having committed a crime, they would be --
25 that would be grounds for their arrest."
Page 5062
1 Then I would like to ask you: On what grounds were these women
2 arrested?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this order can be
4 explained much better by Mr. Colovic, I'm sure. But in my personal
5 opinion, this was sheltering civilians -- relocating civilians from
6 war-ravaged areas, where there was fighting going on between the warring
7 sides, such as was Dobrinja, for instance, at which time civilians and
8 women and children were placed in certain facilities until the end of the
9 war operations. And the instruction was that after that and in similar
10 situations, those people should be immediately released, naturally,
11 unless they were -- they featured in some other regular criminal
12 proceedings.
13 JUDGE KWON: So the thing is that these women were not arrested
14 or detained in relation to war crimes?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, in my interpretation,
16 Your Honours, the way I see it.
17 JUDGE KWON: Then we can take it there were at the time also some
18 males, men, who were detained for the same reason as these women?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE KWON: And according to this order, they were not released?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to this order, only
22 released unconditionally were women and children and old and infirm
23 people, whereas able-bodied men fit for battle were not released,
24 according to the order of the president of the state commission.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
Page 5063
1 Mr. Karadzic.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. May I ask you to explain this "unconditionally"? What was the
4 condition for releasing these people as well, or what was the decisive
5 factor whether they would be released or held?
6 A. Able-bodied males were examined by the competent organs, whether
7 civilians or military; namely, by the police or by the military police.
8 And if they hadn't violated the war of law [as interpreted] or had not
9 participated in the fighting or had not been active in the conflicts,
10 they would be released and/or exchanged, whereas these categories that
11 the President of this honourable Court has asked me about, i.e., the
12 Chamber, had to be released without any conditions, without any
13 investigations, without any examination.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you agree with the assessment of the Muslim
15 General Divjak that in the first year of the war, at least 75 to
16 80 per cent of them waged war in civilian clothes?
17 A. As far as I know -- actually, I don't know the exact percentage,
18 but I do know that quite a few of the members of the Muslim Army in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have uniforms.
20 Q. Does that mean that taking captive someone in the zone of war
21 actions, if someone does not have a uniform, that does not mean that that
22 someone is not a combatant?
23 A. That was investigated by the competent security services. It was
24 up to them to establish whether someone had participated in the fighting,
25 whether it was an active combatant who participated in the fighting or a
Page 5064
1 civilian who just happened to be in his house.
2 Q. Thank you. We shall deal with this topic at some length, but let
3 me ask you this: Did you know that in Prijedor and Sanski Most, the
4 authorities had aired on radio an invitation -- a call to civilians to
5 remain at their homes until the fighting against the terrorists was over,
6 and one witness has confirmed that here in respect of Sanski Most?
7 A. I do not know that, Mr. President.
8 Q. Now, that prompts me to ask you this: Do you know that from the
9 report that the government asked for, of those captured in Sanski Most,
10 41 per cent were released and 59 were sent to Manjaca, whereas in
11 Prijedor over 50 per cent were released in this screening, in this
12 triage?
13 A. I don't know that.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We shall see the
15 relevant documents.
16 Has this document been admitted?
17 JUDGE KWON: We were told it has already been admitted as
18 Prosecution Exhibit 1090.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see 65 ter
20 01581.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this has been admitted as --
22 JUDGE KWON: Admitted as ...?
23 THE REGISTRAR: I'm mistaken. I think I have the wrong 65 ter
24 number.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
Page 5065
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Minister, is this contract an agreement on the mutual release
4 of prisoners on the principle "all for all"? Tell me who drew this up,
5 who signed it, and when.
6 A. This agreement was made by the authorised representatives of the
7 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of Wars on the basis of an
8 agreement signed on the -- concluded on the 5th of July, 1992. It was
9 signed by Nenad Vanovac on behalf of the Serbian side --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the English, the entire
12 page in English, please. Scroll up a bit.
13 JUDGE KWON: The 65 ter number of the document we are looking at
14 is 01581, Mr. Karadzic?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the number I called,
16 and I received what I wanted.
17 JUDGE KWON: Then the Registrar should be right. It has already
18 been admitted as Exhibit P1131?
19 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: P1131.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So Mr. Bikel [phoen] has signed here for the UNPROFOR as a
24 witness?
25 A. Yes. Filip Vukovic signed for the federation side, the Muslim
Page 5066
1 side, and Nenad Vanovac signed for the Serbian side, the opposing side.
2 Q. There is no gender distinction here. All persons found detained
3 on both sides are unconditionally released?
4 A. Yes, that's what I tried to explain during the examination
5 conducted by Mr. Tieger. I tried to explain this contract.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Can we have the next page; in English as well. No, one page
8 further in English.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you read item 3?
11 A. This is an agreement between you and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,
12 president of the Presidency, concerning an exchange "all for all," and in
13 item 3 it says:
14 "The parties to the agreement accept that the civilian
15 population, especially the old, the infirm, and the sick, women and
16 children, be released unconditionally from detention and captivity
17 through the commission."
18 Q. It is, therefore, underlined that civilian population, that means
19 men, women and children, and especially the old and the infirm; not only
20 the old and infirm, but especially them?
21 A. The assumption here, Mr. President, is that if there are people
22 on both sides in captivity and in detention, including children and the
23 old and the infirm, they should be released immediately, because we had
24 already noted that in certain localities, the crisis staffs kept in
25 captivity old and infirm people. That was before the central authorities
Page 5067
1 and the central state commission was established.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in both
3 versions.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And could you read to us the last item, 8 -- the last sentence of
6 item 8? The last sentence.
7 A. "The parties to the agreement undertake not to arrest civilians
8 and to enable them to move freely on the territory under their control."
9 Q. So there is no distinction between men and women among civilians?
10 A. Yes, that's true. All civilians.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see paragraph 17.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. When you look at 17, do you agree that for a while,
14 Mr. Izetbegovic signed a separate copy so that his signature would not
15 find itself on the same page as the signature of a Serb?
16 A. Yes, I remember that.
17 Q. Look at item 17.
18 A. At meetings where they considered the implementation of this
19 agreement, the parties to the agreement shall, without fail, invite
20 representatives of the UNHCR and the UNPROFOR, as well as representatives
21 of the Red Cross of the Serbian Republic BH, the Red Cross of the
22 Republic of BH
23 Q. Would it have been much less hard on the civilians if this
24 agreement had been honoured?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5068
1 Q. Since this one is admitted, is the Karadzic/Izetbegovic agreement
2 also admitted?
3 A. As far as I know, yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it has already been entered as Exhibit P1131.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Can we now have 1D2059. I don't know whether we have a
7 translation. If there is one, the Prosecution would know. I don't.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you agree, Minister, that this is the Banja Luka Commission, a
10 regional commission?
11 A. This is a report from 1993, from October 1993, when
12 Mr. Vitomir Popovic was the deputy prime minister, and late Jovo Rosic
13 was the minister of justice, and this is, indeed, a regional commission.
14 Q. Does the paragraph 1 say:
15 "Our demand has been accepted to enable the temporary removal or
16 relocation of all Serbs from that area who so wish"?
17 A. "Our demand to enable temporary relocation of all Serbs from that
18 area who so wish has been accepted. In exchange, the Muslims want
19 unhindered passage for convoys of humanitarian aid through to Travnik and
20 Zenica," et cetera.
21 Q. And what else?
22 A. And that the Serbs account for 15 to 20 per cent in this convoy,
23 and other ethnicities, Croat, Muslims, Jews, Slovenes, and Macedonians.
24 Q. So is it the case that Serbs want to have their population
25 allowed to -- I am sorry. Interpreters, I will repeat.
Page 5069
1 Does this mean that this commission is asking that Serbs from
2 Zenica, Travnik, and Central Bosnia, at least those who so wish, be
3 enabled to move to Serb territory, whereas Muslims set a condition; that
4 humanitarian aid convoys pass unhindered to Travnik and Zenica, and that
5 in the Serbian convoy, there should be 15 to 20 per cent of their own
6 people, Muslims and Croats, who want to go to Europe?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. The first sentence of paragraph 3, please.
9 A. It says that:
10 "In December 1993, a high-ranking Serbian judge/cleric opened
11 three offices for Serbs who want temporary relocation to apply."
12 Therefore, it was well known that at that time in Central Bosnia
13 there was a base there of the Mujahedin, a brigade, El Mujahid, who were
14 especially cruel, and there were many Serbs who fell victim in that area.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Paragraph 4.
18 A. "On the day before Christmas, 6 January 1994, we admitted -- we
19 took in 198 persons from Zenica, including 180 Serbs. The rest are
20 Muslims who are living in third countries (Austria, Germany
21 Slovakia
22 The others are all mixed, including, for instance, family Mitrovic,
23 Trkulja family and Derberovic [phoen], Nedzad, with wife, Gordana, and
24 children, Sasa and Zlatan."
25 Q. Go on.
Page 5070
1 A. "All who came out were temporarily put up in a make-shift
2 admission centre in Ljubija, where they were processed as due.
3 Unfortunately, 14 persons from the Muslim group are still in Ljubija."
4 Q. Does that mean they were waiting for something?
5 A. I don't know, Mr. President.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted, please?
7 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
9 JUDGE KWON: Just for the record, can we see the date of this
10 document? The 26th of January, yes. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 24, Your Honours.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. But that's a report for 1993, because this was the beginning of
14 the year?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Have we got a number for this?
18 Can we go to 65 ter 189.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Same topic. The 41st session of the government, held on 22 July
21 1992; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can you read to us 7 and 8?
Page 5071
1 A. "7. Proposal to appoint the president of the Central Commission
2 for the Exchange of Prisoners of War.
3 "8. Agreement on the condition and procedure of exchanging
4 prisoners of war."
5 Q. And then after item 14, you noted that it would be a good idea
6 for more ministers to attend, rather than send their representatives, but
7 it was still found that there was a quorum.
8 Now, can we move four pages forward. In Serbian, the ERN ends
9 with 452. That's perfect.
10 Can you see "AD-8"?
11 And if we could get it in English, it would be probably page 6.
12 Now, could you read number 8?
13 A. "The government upheld the agreement on the conditions and
14 procedure for exchanging prisoners of war.
15 "It has been proposed to refer to the peace agreement recently
16 signed in London
17 Q. Do you remember that I undertook, before Lord Carrington, that
18 there would be an exchange "all for all" and that civilians would be able
19 to move to a territory that is safer for them, and that was the basis of
20 that agreement which also provided for police escort to civilians up to
21 that territory they wanted to reach?
22 A. Can you rephrase?
23 Q. Do you recall that in July -- I do beg the interpreters' pardon.
24 I am under great time pressure.
25 Do you recall that conference in July? It was still the
Page 5072
1 Cutileiro-Carrington Conference. We undertook to exchange prisoners "all
2 for all" and to provide police escort to civilians who wanted to move to
3 another territory they found safer, and that was the basis for some of my
4 orders.
5 A. That was with the mediation of Lord Carrington, the British
6 negotiator/mediator. I know that.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, AD-14,
8 third paragraph.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you read to us the third paragraph in 14?
11 A. "The government has been informed about certain incidents of
12 unlawful treatment of prisoners of war. It has been decided to take
13 measures to ensure a consistent implementation of the order by the
14 Presidency of the Serbian Republic BH on the treatment of prisoners of
15 war."
16 Q. We'll come back to that order, but let me ask you: If the
17 government had criminal intentions, wouldn't it be pleased by this,
18 rather than taking measures to redress the situation? Was the government
19 supporting these incidents of unlawful conduct or not?
20 A. The Serbian government never had criminal intent, especially not
21 the government where I was a member.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we have this document admitted?
24 JUDGE KWON: I don't think -- so we'll admit it.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D430, Your Honours.
Page 5073
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Can we get 65 ter 144.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This a session of the Presidency held on 9 October. You are
5 still on the Cabinet, but Mrs. Plavsic and I were not present. This was
6 just a consultation. Proposals were made, and I later signed those
7 things that were accepted.
8 Can you read to us from the paragraph that begins: "It is
9 noted ..."?
10 A. "It is noted that an exchange of prisoners did not happen,
11 because the opposite side brought all men and women to be exchanged.
12 Then even the exhumations had not been done. A new meeting was
13 scheduled."
14 Q. Do you remember that the opposing side often sabotaged exchanges,
15 or they brought an inadequate number of the wounded, or they brought
16 their civilians to be exchanged for fighting men?
17 A. I know that there had been problems with exchange of prisoners.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Can this document be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D431, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2014, please.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. We discussed this a moment ago, Minister. It's about civilians
25 in combat areas, combat zones. Let's see what the commander of the
Page 5074
1 Sarajevo Romanija Corps says about this. Sladoje Cedomir signed on his
2 behalf, and that's his chief of staff, I suppose. It's the 22nd of
3 October, 1992
4 A. "The commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps orders:
5 "Women, children and old people from places that are not loyal to
6 our government should be secured on territories of municipalities of
7 their previous residence of organisation -- in the organisation of
8 civilian authorities, enabling correct treatment, safety," et cetera.
9 Q. Is this an order to all units?
10 A. Yes, it's addressed to the commanders of all the units belonging
11 to the Sarajevo
12 Q. Could you read the preamble?
13 A. "In view of the fact that there have been cases when women,
14 children, and elderly men of Muslim ethnicity were rounded up and sent to
15 the corps command, where they pose an additional burden in terms of
16 accommodation, food and care, and in order to provide organised treatment
17 in the future, I hereby order:"
18 Q. And number 2?
19 A. "Prisoners captured in combat should be sent to the corps
20 command, while taking care that all measures for their safety are taken
21 during the journey. After their processing by officials from the corps
22 command, they will be placed in the Kula Prison, where they would be
23 handed over for further treatment to police officials and commissions for
24 exchange."
25 Q. And number 3?
Page 5075
1 A. Number 3:
2 "Muslims who remain loyal should be provided with all the
3 necessary conditions for continued life and work, to the extent of our
4 possibilities."
5 Q. And now about these people, were they just -- were they arrested
6 or were they removed from combat zones?
7 A. They were removed from combat zones and taken to shelters; for
8 instance, to the shelter in the Lukavica Barracks, where there was
9 accommodation and food available.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Can this document be admitted?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D432, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, do we have time for another
15 document? 1D2015, 1D2015.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Would you like to give us a summary of this document?
18 A. It's from the Supreme Command Staff of the Armed Forces, and it's
19 sent to all the district defence staffs and all the prisons in the
20 territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's an order pursuant
21 to international conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war.
22 "1 --"
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down, please? Thank
24 you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "1. For all persons who are
Page 5076
1 elderly, sick, and women who found themselves in prisons without having
2 committed any crimes or without being suspected of any crimes,
3 immediately provide lists to the State Commission for the Exchange of
4 Prisoners and the Republic Staff of the Supreme Command in order to
5 conduct an organised exchange in agreed places, under the supervision and
6 control of the Republic Commission," et cetera.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. This position they take towards the sick, the elderly, the women,
9 et cetera, is it same as our position, our altitude towards these people?
10 Did they bring them to be exchanged? And if they did, did we do the
11 same?
12 A. I don't know about that, Mr. President, but I do know that there
13 were problems with exchanges, and the presidents of these commissions,
14 the Regional and the Central Commission, were more familiar with this.
15 Q. Was this signed by Sefer Halilovic?
16 A. Yes, the first commander of the Patriotic League.
17 Q. Does this, by definition, rule out able-bodied fighting men or
18 men fit for the army?
19 A. It does mean that elderly people, sick people, and women were
20 detained in the territory held by the BH Army.
21 Q. And they were subject to exchange?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
24 JUDGE KWON: It could be marked for identification, pending
25 translation.
Page 5077
1 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
2 JUDGE KWON: And that may be it for today.
3 Yes. Again, we'll sit in the afternoon tomorrow, 2.15.
4 Have a nice evening.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
8 July, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.
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