Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5078

 1                           Wednesday, 14 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 7             Before we continue to hear the cross-examination of Mr. Mandic,

 8     there's a ruling the Chamber wishes to issue orally.

 9             The Chamber refers to the accused's sixth motion for filing of

10     disclosure violation and for remedy or measures filed publicly on

11     9th July 2010, and the Prosecution's response to this motion, filed

12     publicly on 12th July 2010.

13             The Chamber is mindful that one of the remedies sought for the

14     alleged violation of the Prosecution's disclosure obligation under

15     Rule 66(A)(ii) is an extension of the time allocated to the accused for

16     cross-examination of the current witness, Mr. Mandic.

17             The Chamber finds that the Prosecution did breach its

18     Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosure obligation by not providing the two documents

19     that are discussed in the motion to the accused at an earlier date.

20     However, having considered the length, which is a total of five pages,

21     and the subject-matter of those two documents, the Trial Chamber is not

22     satisfied that their disclosure by the Prosecution on 7th July 2010

23     warrants additional time for the cross-examination of Mr. Mandic by the

24     accused.

25             The Trial Chamber will issue a consolidated written decision

Page 5079

 1     which will address the remaining issues and submissions -- which will

 2     address the remaining -- the remaining issues and submissions raised in

 3     the accused's third, fourth, fifth, and sixth motions relating to the

 4     alleged disclosure violations by the Prosecution in due course.

 5             Well, Mr. Karadzic, let's continue your cross-examination.

 6                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]

 7                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Good afternoon, Excellencies.  Good afternoon, Mr. Minister.

10     Good afternoon to all.

11             If I may, just one sentence, please, in relation to the previous

12     question.  I believe that this is an invaluable witness, in terms of what

13     he knows, because, in part, he was a participant and, in part, he was a

14     witness.  So it would be a pity if he were to leave without us clarifying

15     with him all the things that he can shed more light on, especially in

16     relation to Sarajevo.

17             1D295, could I have that document now, please.  In e-court.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic : [Continued]

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Minister, yesterday we saw that Dobro Planojevic, assistant

21     minister, without any instructions from me, issued instructions of his

22     own, concerning the treatment of prisoners of war and civilians.

23             Let me ask you, Minister, do you remember my anecdotes about

24     general chaos?  Remember when I used to say, We have to distinguish

25     between what is ordered by General Mladic and what is ordered by general

Page 5080

 1     chaos?  Remember that?  Do you remember those anecdotes of mine, that we

 2     have to make a distinction in terms of who is ordering what?

 3        A.   I remember that you asked for your functions to be separated from

 4     those of General Mladic.

 5        Q.   Do you remember that I often said that this is a kind of war in

 6     which you don't need to give orders saying, Fire, but, rather, Stop?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Something seems to be wrong with

 9     the document in e-court.  Can we have this on the ELMO now, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Minister, you confirmed that these instructions of mine were

12     important for the local level, but what about the central organs?  We see

13     Planojevic's text.  Did they operate regardless of whether I was

14     recommending that or not?  Did they operate on the basis of the law, on

15     the basis of the law and international regulations, regardless of whether

16     that had been recommended or not?

17        A.   To the best of my knowledge and as far as I participated in

18     government, all institutions worked on the basis of the law that gave

19     them a certain scope of rights and responsibilities in their respective

20     fields.  Mr. Planojevic, as assistant minister for the police, by virtue

21     of his very office, was in charge of issuing instructions from that

22     particular field, as we saw last time, and to issue orders as to how the

23     police should behave in regions and municipalities.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It's in e-court now, it

25     seems.  Could we also have the translation?  I believe that there is a

Page 5081

 1     translation of this order that you can see here now, so we'll have it in

 2     e-court as well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  1D295.

 4             THE ACCUSED:  You can -- you can get me back.

 5             [Interpretation] Yes, this is the Serbian version on the screen.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Without reading all of it, can you tell us what this document is

 8     and when it was issued?

 9        A.   Since there was a shortage of regulations on imminent threat of

10     war, two months into the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina you

11     issued an order on the observance of International Law of War in the Serb

12     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the army.

13        Q.   What is it that they're supposed to observe; international

14     treaties and what else, 2 and 3?

15        A.   The Rules of International Law of War referred to in paragraph 1

16     of the present item include:  International treaties signed, ratified, or

17     acceded to by the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,

18     customary International Law of War, and generally-accepted principles of

19     International Law of War.

20        Q.   We see here that officers are duty-bound to take action and

21     impose sanctions, if necessary.  Could you read 3?

22        A.   We discussed this earlier on as well.  I tried to explain it when

23     Mr. Tieger was examining me.  I said that you ordered the minister of

24     defence, through this order, to issue instructions on the treatment of

25     captured persons.  And he specified exactly who was to play which role

Page 5082

 1     and how captured persons are to be treated.  That includes civilians and

 2     prisoners of war who were from the military.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So you see --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.  I asked about this before, and I'd reiterate

 6     my request that Dr. Karadzic advise whether a document he's putting on

 7     screen is -- was not within the notification of the 1200-plus documents

 8     he notified us about.  Otherwise, we spend time going through the list

 9     unnecessarily.  So we would appreciate if we could just be advised

10     accordingly.  I'm not --

11             JUDGE KWON:  So you were not informed of this document?

12             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  And, again, I'm not suggesting that he

13     should be precluded from using the document, but we should be notified.

14     There may be occasions when the late notice does become relevant.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was just waiting for the

17     interpretation.

18             I am sorry, I do apologise, but I believe that that had been the

19     case.  This is a very well-known order.  It was very important.  But we

20     are going to review the matter.  We simply do not have enough staff.

21     That is our problem.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   So what's the order about?  Organising training in the military

24     with regard to these rules, and that finally it enters into force when

25     published in the Official Gazette?

Page 5083

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this document be admitted into evidence?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D434.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Now we're going to see what the minister did in relation to this

 8     order.  65 ter 09437, please.  It is identical to 1D196.

 9             It seems that it's going to be easier to read out the English

10     version.  Is this the Official Gazette of the 13th of June, 1992?

11             May I ask for 1D196 in Serbian.  It may be more legible.  1D196,

12     could we have that in Serbian?  Yes, that's it.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Minister, can you tell us, briefly, what is allowed and what is

15     disallowed?

16        A.   On the basis of your order, Minister Subotic issued instructions

17     on the treatment of captured persons.  Inter alia, he established exactly

18     who is in charge of detaining captured persons, releasing them, what was

19     to be done with these persons, what the powers of the police were, what

20     the powers of the police -- what were the powers of the ministry.  He

21     also refers to international regulations and the conditions under which

22     these captured persons can be used for carrying out specific work.

23             Of course, I'm familiar with these instructions.  I practically

24     know them by heart.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the rest of the

Page 5084

 1     document in Serbian and in English, please.  We can have page 2 in

 2     Serbian, and in English the participants can see the rest on this page

 3     and read out all the items.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   There is also a reference here to the position of the

 6     International Red Cross; right?

 7        A.   Which item?

 8        Q.   I think it's 17.

 9        A.   "The representatives of the International Red Cross and other

10     humanitarian organisations shall be enabled to visit and assist captured

11     persons as far as possible."

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise once again to the

13     interpreters.  I start too early.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   These are all the rights of detained persons or captured persons.

16     Do you remember a document - if we haven't offered it, we will - where we

17     publicly inform the parents of persons who are captured and kept on our

18     sides, that they should not worry, that they will be tried on the basis

19     of our laws, if they are fit for trial, rather than exchanges?

20        A.   As far as I can remember, that was a proclamation of the

21     Presidency about these captured persons.  I think it was given to

22     SRNA News Agency, and it was broadcast on Serb Television.

23        Q.   Yes.  Their parents had fled to the federation, and we had no

24     other contacts with them; right?

25        A.   That was one of the ways in which information could be provided.

Page 5085

 1        Q.   Is this actually a form that was prescribed by Minister Subotic?

 2     It was a card that was to be filled out, that this was compulsory

 3     documentation accompanying each and every prisoner; right?

 4        A.   This is accompanying documentation, and this is a form that was

 5     published in the Official Gazette, along with these instructions.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 09437 has already been admitted as

10     Exhibit P1134.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D294, please.  Could we just have

13     that briefly.  It is a sequel to this form that is to be filled out.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Minister, while we're waiting for that, let me ask you whether

16     some of those judges who had been appointed left eventually for different

17     reasons; tensions, general anxiety, and so on?

18        A.   Of course, there were cases when persons both of Serb and

19     non-Serb ethnicity left.  They either took different offices or they left

20     the war-ravaged Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Of course, there was a great deal of

21     fluctuation of personnel.  People were coming and going.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we disregard that previous number, because it's part of a

24     document that was already adopted.

25             65 ter 176, please, can we have that.

Page 5086

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did that only depend on them, Minister?

 3        A.   Only on them, their own will.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please cast a glance at this document.

 5     Could you briefly tell us what this is and when this happened?

 6        A.   These are minutes from the 28th session, from the

 7     15th of June, 1992, and it was chaired by the deputy prime minister,

 8     Milan Trbojevic.

 9        Q.   It's a government session; right?

10        A.   Yes.  I apologise, yes.  It is one of the government sessions.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 4 in Serbian, and

12     perhaps it's the last page in English.  Sorry, the fourth one in the

13     document, but it's actually page 5 in Serbian.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do we agree, Minister, that at this point in time the government

16     is waging a battle for the functioning of government, as such?  Can you

17     look at paragraph 2?

18        A.   The session indicated how exceptionally important it is for

19     authority to function in all parts of the republic, as well as life

20     itself; inter alia, republican commissioners are supposed to help that

21     process, and they are representatives of all organs.

22        Q.   Next paragraph.

23        A.   Bearing all of that in mind, the government points out the need

24     to have a joint meeting of republican state bodies with the purpose of

25     discussing open or outstanding issues, the synchronisation of activities

Page 5087

 1     and measures, and ensuring that work and tasks are conducted in a

 2     co-ordinated and efficient manner and within the Constitution and law.

 3        Q.   Could you read out the last paragraph, please, the one after

 4     that?

 5        A.   What was pointed out was the necessity to find possibilities for

 6     distributing the post and other material in municipalities.

 7        Q.   Could you finish?

 8        A.   "To that end, the possibility of providing a helicopter or

 9     ultimately a messenger service as a last resort should be considered."

10        Q.   Thank you, Minister.  Does that mean that electronic links could

11     not really meet the needs of the government for a two-way communication

12     with the local level?  So what does this mean at the end of the

13     Twentieth Century; courier, Pony Express, what?

14        A.   Mr. President, that means that the seat of government and

15     republican organs were terribly isolated.  The road network barely

16     functioned, and with a large -- and we did not have any communication

17     with a large part of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was under Serb control.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Could this be admitted, if it hasn't been admitted already, that

20     is?

21             JUDGE KWON:  I think that has already been admitted as

22     Exhibit P1095.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 177.  These are

24     all minutes from the sessions of different bodies, and there is an

25     agreement, in principle, that they are relevant.

Page 5088

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a government session.  It

 2     was -- it is the 29th session, held on the 16th of July [as interpreted],

 3     1992, which was chaired by Professor Branko Djeric.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see Serbian

 5     page number 4, bearing the number "379," and the corresponding English

 6     page, "Re-8" and "9."

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please either tell us what the first two sentences of Article 9

 9     are or read them out for us.

10        A.   "The government was informed about the content of the letters

11     sent by the SAO Birac."

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The English version has to be --

13     well, yes, I see it now.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It was assessed that a political

15     and security situation in this region was not satisfactory and that all

16     measures needed to be undertaken to step up security to a higher level."

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Let me ask you, Mr. Minister, please tell the participants, what

19     is Birac?  Does it contain Sekovici, Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Milici,

20     Bratunac, and Zvornik, all these municipalities?  Is this this group of

21     six municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, the majority of which was accepted

22     to be part of the Muslim territorial unit at various conferences held on

23     the subject-matter?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Do you remember that we sent them a proclamation that they should

Page 5089

 1     not fight because perhaps their regions would fall to their territorial

 2     unit anyway, and it was -- it didn't make any sense for them to fight for

 3     it?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             If we have not offered this already, we shall do so on another

 7     occasion.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is it fair to say that despite all this, they severed our

10     communication, namely, the road Vlasenica to Zvornik, via Konjevic Polje,

11     so that we had to go there via Ceparde?

12        A.   Yes, and in several instances at Ceparde, too, was cut off.

13        Q.   That was my next question.  Do you remember that they laid

14     ambushes in -- at Ceparde and at Crni Vrh and that they killed people in

15     civilian vehicles; in fact, a bus was riddled with bullets and many

16     people were killed?

17        A.   I know for a fact that at Crni Vrh some people from Rogatica got

18     killed.  Some drivers from the Birac mine were also killed.  And mainly

19     civilians who were on their way towards the River Drina and on towards

20     Bijeljina or to the right, towards Zvornik, also came to harm.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that we took military actions in that

22     zone only in -- late in autumn 1992 and in the spring of 1993, when they

23     started attacking the army, also when they started shooting in the backs

24     of troops, and they actually sought shelter in these villages?

25        A.   I don't know that.

Page 5090

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at AD-11, the second paragraph.

 2     It is the next page in the English version.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on, just for clarification:  You read

 4     out the item number 9, which refers to SAO Birac, and you were asked

 5     about some questions relating to -- some six municipalities in

 6     Eastern Bosnia.  Were we talking about the same region?  The "Birac"

 7     refers to those Eastern Bosnia regions?  Because I'm not clear.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Birac is a region, Your Honours,

 9     which is in Eastern Bosnia, and it encompasses these six municipalities,

10     Zvornik, Vlasenica, Milici, and the other two or three that were

11     enumerated.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Please be so kind as to inform us about this second paragraph of

15     item 11.

16        A.   It was noted that the government should be more active in

17     exercising its constitutional and legal rights and obligations.  It was

18     also said that there were certain difficulties posed to the work of the

19     government by the inadequate and insufficient co-operation with the

20     Presidency of the Republic and the Main Staff of the army, and some

21     difficulties and problems in establishing contacts with the regions and

22     the municipalities.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Just another piece of proof that there was no good

24     communication.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

Page 5091

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And do you agree with this?

 3        A.   I would be only repeating myself if I said that the government as

 4     well as the other organs were totally isolated at Pale and on

 5     Mount Jahorina and that all sorts of communications were poor and very

 6     inadequate.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page, 381,

 8     please.  I believe that in the English version, it is also the last page.

 9     Well, then it is the penultimate page in English.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is mid-July -- mid-June.  Do you agree that these

12     difficulties with communications lasted for as long as you were a member

13     of the government, at least?  Did anything improve?

14        A.   This is mid-July, and we had to grapple with these problems

15     throughout the year 1992.

16        Q.   Thank you.  We shall be revisiting this -- the crisis in the

17     Birac region in another document, but now let us see what the last three

18     paragraphs are, what it was that the government dealt with at this

19     session.

20        A.   It was concluded that a helicopter should be requested from the

21     Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic to be used by the

22     government to establish contacts with the municipalities.  The government

23     was informed of the letter of the minister of health, in which all state

24     and international institutions are requested to lift the blockade in

25     order for the necessary medicaments for the Bosnian Krajina to be

Page 5092

 1     secured.

 2        Q.   Does this refer also to the prohibition of delivering oxygen

 3     because of which 12 prematurely-born babies -- because of the lack of

 4     which, 12 prematurely-born babies died, because they didn't have the

 5     necessary oxygen?

 6        A.   Eleven babies died, and the twelfth baby remained handicapped for

 7     life because she didn't receive the assistance she required, actually,

 8     the treatment -- the oxygen she needed.  Now she's 18 years old.  She

 9     just turned 18, Mr. President, a couple of months ago, but she's

10     physically disabled and mentally disabled.

11        Q.   I am afraid that she, too, has died.  Her name is Sladjana, if I

12     remember correctly.

13        A.   No, that is not correct.  No, there was a programme about her on

14     the occasion of the 18th anniversary of that event, and that baby is

15     still alive.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that that drama was the reason for

17     the establishing of a corridor in Posavina and the liberation of that

18     part so as to be able to supply Bosnian Krajina, i.e., the

19     Banja Luka Krajina, with the necessary supplies?

20        A.   As far as I know, there were multiple reasons for that, but

21     through arms struggle, a corridor was breached through Posavina, and then

22     the eastern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina could be reached as well as the

23     parts across the Sava River towards Biha [as interpreted] from where we

24     were.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And this last one, please.

Page 5093

 1        A.   The government concluded that all measures should be taken,

 2     including military measures, to lift the blockade on the Bosnian Krajina

 3     and ensure regular supplies of food and other merchandise -- other goods.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for explaining this.

 5             Can this be admitted, if it has not been admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D435, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we now see 1D199, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, for future purposes, the Judges are

11     not well-aware of the geography in the region, so if you talk about the

12     corridors of some regions, it may be a good idea to show the maps from

13     time to time.

14             Let's move on.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your suggestion.  I

16     hope that with this witness we shall identify both the positions around

17     Sarajevo and the settlements around Sarajevo, as well as the principal

18     regions, Birac and the others ones that we have been mentioning.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Minister, is this the 20th of June, the political/security

21     situation information of the 2nd Krajina Corps; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page in

24     Serbian, and in English that is all that has been translated.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5094

 1        Q.   Can you just tell us what this is about, in a nutshell, in the

 2     two highlighted framed parts?

 3        A.   "Of late, we are encountering the ever-more marked practices of

 4     robbery and war profiteering among individuals and groups.  Our unit

 5     commands, security organs, military police, and organs of social

 6     structures have been ordered to discover and prevent such criminal

 7     actions.  To that effect, a number of groups and individuals have been

 8     arrested, and legal action has been taken against them, but we should

 9     like to stress that this will be very difficult to eradicate without your

10     help and specific evidence."

11        Q.   It was "eradicate;" right?

12        A.   Yes, "eradicate."  "It is hard to eradicate without," et cetera.

13        Q.   Please go on.

14        A.   "We would like to draw the attention of also unit commands and

15     officers that pending the adoption of the Law on the Army of the Serbian

16     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and subsidiary legislation, they should

17     fully abide by the Law on Total People's Defence of the Socialist Federal

18     Republic of Yugoslavia, in particular when pronouncing educational and

19     correctional measures, and rules which regulate the types of educational

20     and correctional measures, and the jurisdiction for their pronouncement."

21        Q.   Thank you.  Does this mean that at that time we still did not

22     have a law on the army and that both the army and the civilian

23     leadership, under such circumstances, actually followed -- abided by the

24     previous laws of the previous federal state?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5095

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Can this be adopted, admitted?

 3     And if the OTP has the entire translation, we would not object to it's

 4     being admitted.

 5             Can we see the entire Serbian version so that we can see that it

 6     is written on it "Confidential"?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the first page in B/C/S.

 8             Mr. Mandic, what is this document about?  Is it an order or a

 9     report?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a report on the political

11     and security situation in the Krajina region, which was under the command

12     of the 1st Krajina Corps.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Addressed to who?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Addressed to the Presidency, i.e.,

15     to the republican institutions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm asking because it's difficult to understand how

17     a assistant commander for something in the corps can address the

18     Presidency directly.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He couldn't do so without approval

20     from his commander.  If he had been so empowered or so authorised by him,

21     he could do so.  You are right, Your Honours.  Without the approval,

22     without the consent of the corps commander, he could not directly address

23     the republican institutions of authority.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see a passage in this document that it was

25     addressed to the Presidency, Mr. Mandic?

Page 5096

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't, but letters of this

 2     kind were mainly addressed to the Presidency, as the supreme command.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The documents of this kind go upwards to the top, towards the

 6     organs, and also downwards, towards the lower-ranking commands?

 7        A.   Reports, memos of this kind, would be submitted to the competent

 8     higher-ranking commands, and the instructions and orders for the

 9     execution of instructions contained in them would be submitted to the

10     lower-ranking commands.

11        Q.   Am I right when I say that this was intended to the commands, to

12     the assistant commander for moral guidance, I believe, which was

13     according to his line of work?  We happened to stumble upon this example

14     in the archives.  So this was sent to the assistant commander for moral

15     guidance and the officers in charge of the same subject-matter at lower

16     levels?

17        A.   This particular copy was for the archives, for the file and the

18     assistant for moral guidance, but obviously it was addressed -- the

19     document was addressed to superior commands to inform them about a

20     political security situation in the region of Krajina.

21        Q.   It does -- nevertheless, seems to me -- what does this mean,

22     "PKZ," et cetera?

23        A.   Assistant commander for moral guidance and education.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Given that we have only partial translation, we'll

Page 5097

 1     mark it for identification, pending full translation of the document.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D436, Your Honour.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             May we have 65 ter 121.  I don't know whether it's been admitted.

 5             This is a session of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic

 6     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's 65 ter 121.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   At this session, the reconstruction or reshuffle of the

 9     government is mentioned for the first time, under B.  So let's look at

10     item B.

11        A.   AD-3, item B:

12             "It was concluded that the prime minister proposed the

13     reshuffling of the government as well as appropriate regulations related

14     to the reshuffle."

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the prime minister here was given

16     what belongs to him, the freedom for a cabinet reshuffle?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you remember that as early as late May or early June there

19     were misunderstandings between the prime minister and the premier and

20     that it was recommended to him that instead of replacing people he should

21     conduct a reshuffle?

22        A.   Yes, that was in the summer of 1992.

23        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come to that.  So the Presidency told him that

24     he could go ahead and have a government reshuffle; was that the way it

25     was?

Page 5098

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into

 4     evidence?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D437, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now have 65 ter 124.  124,

 8     that's the 14th Presidency Session of the Presidency of the Serbian

 9     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, of the 3rd of July.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   May I ask you to present to us items 1 and 2 so that we can see

12     the way in which attempts were made in July to establish the state

13     organs?

14        A.   "The Presidency adopted the following decisions and conclusions:

15             "1.  The decision that the seat of the Supreme Military Court and

16     Prosecutors' Office should be in Han Pijesak."

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We need a translation also.  This

18     is 65 ter.  I believe there must be an English version.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we do.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Government of the

21     Serbian Republic, the Ministry of Defence, is ordered to draw up a text

22     of the decision in connection with the appointment of judges and

23     prosecutors.  It was agreed that the authorities on the ground should be

24     asked for their opinion of individual candidates so that the best judges

25     and prosecutors can be selected."

Page 5099

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Where are you reading from?  What I see on my screen is the

 3     transcript.

 4        A.   Item 1 on page 1 of the minutes of the Presidency session of the

 5     3rd of July.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, now we have the Serbian

 7     version.  We're just waiting for the translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We do have English translation on our own PCs, so if

 9     you wish, you can carry on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't.  We're

11     obviously not using the same system.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   So opinions are sought on the ground about the candidates?

14        A.   Yes.  The seat of the Supreme Military Court and

15     Prosecutors' Office is established in Han Pijesak, and candidates are

16     sought on the ground, and opinions about the candidates also sought.

17        Q.   And where was the seat of the civilian Supreme Court?

18             Now we can see what it was like for us at Pale.

19        A.   I don't have anything either.

20             JUDGE KWON:  They are now fixing it, so just bear with us a

21     minute.  It should be with you very soon.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we have it now.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you just tell us where the seat of the civilian judiciary

25     was; that is, the Supreme Court and the main republican prosecutor.

Page 5100

 1        A.   To the best of my recollection, their seat was at Pale.

 2        Q.   In a weekend cottage, is that right, next to Hotel Panorama?

 3        A.   An annex of Hotel Panorama.

 4        Q.   Can you tell us about items 2 and 7, please?

 5        A.   Item 2:

 6             "The Presidency issued an order to the MUP of the

 7     Serbian Republic to conduct an investigation into the activities of

 8     paramilitary units on the territory of Gacko and Nevesinje

 9     municipalities.

10             "It was said at the session that the Presidency was receiving

11     unreliable reports that groups on that territory, which were not under

12     the command of the army or the police, were terrorising and taking

13     vengeance on the civilian population.  The MUP was, therefore, given the

14     task of investigating and preventing the activities of these independent

15     groups."

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now have item 7, please?

17        A.   Item 7:

18             "It was concluded that responsible organs shall urgently take the

19     harshest measures against perpetrators of criminal offences and persons

20     spreading disinformation and panic among the population."

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page, the next

23     page, that is, so that we can see the end of the document and the

24     signature; in English, too, the last page.  Thank you.

25             May this document be admitted into evidence?

Page 5101

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Can we go back to item 7 and item 2.

 2             Mr. Mandic, do you remember any results of such investigations?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  It was the

 4     Ministry of the Interior, it was the police, that conducted these

 5     investigations, as did the military police.  I was in the

 6     Ministry of Justice, so I'm not familiar with the results of their

 7     investigations.  Possible results of their investigation would have been

 8     dealt with in the military courts because these were armed paramilitary

 9     groups so they would fall under the competence of the military courts.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Although they are not members of the army?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although they were not members of

12     the army, armed persons in wartime fell within the competence of the

13     military judiciary.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It will be admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D438, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             May we have 1D203 and glance briefly at this order which was

18     issued on the same day.  Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is this the order referred to in the previous document, in

21     item 2, Mr. Minister?

22        A.   Yes, this is precisely what I explained to Their Honours.  We can

23     see from this that the investigation was carried out by the police of the

24     Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these are the paramilitary units

25     we discussed.

Page 5102

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll soon come to a document where

 3     we inform the public they should not be upset, because the persons we

 4     arrested were not patriots and they were not regular soldiers, but,

 5     rather, they were criminals.

 6             We might have a translation.  Maybe that's why Mr. Tieger is on

 7     his feet.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             The document currently on the screen, 05897.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into

13     evidence?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let me read in English briefly.  Thank you.

15             It will be admitted, unless it has been already admitted.  It

16     will be Exhibit D439, then?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  No, it hasn't been admitted, Your Honour.  That

18     will be Exhibit D439.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             May we now have 65 ter 125.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  One further question.

23             I'm asking too -- intervening too much, but, Mr. Mandic, as you

24     said, the paramilitaries fall under the purview of military court; then

25     the order to the MUP to investigate what paramilitary did is a wrong

Page 5103

 1     order.  Am I correct?  Mr. Karadzic should have ordered the Ministry of

 2     Defence to investigate such acts?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the

 4     Ministry of Defence is a civilian organ of state administration, and it

 5     cannot carry out investigations directly.  Along with the MUP,

 6     Mr. Karadzic might have issued an order to the Command of the

 7     Herzegovina Corps and the military police of that corps to investigate

 8     what was happening on their territory.  Probably, in July, Mr. Karadzic

 9     had more confidence in the police because the police were able to

10     investigate any crimes occurring on the territory of the entire republic.

11     And when the police concluded its investigation, before criminal

12     proceedings are instituted, they would hand over their results to the

13     prosecutors' office that was in charge of that, so they would have to

14     investigate the groups that came to wage war in Bosnia and Herzegovina

15     which were looting the people and doing everything mentioned in the

16     minutes of the Presidency session.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

18             Mr. Karadzic.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Minister, do you agree that the Herzegovina Corps was quite small

21     and few in numbers?

22        A.   Well, it covered Eastern Herzegovina.  And it's correct, it was a

23     very small corps, as far as manpower goes, and the command.

24        Q.   Do you agree that the military police were often at the

25     front-line instead of engaging in police work and that this might have

Page 5104

 1     been the reason why we addressed this to the military -- to the civilian

 2     police?

 3        A.   You had at constitutional right, Mr. President, to involve the

 4     police in any form of crime prevention, regardless of whether they fell

 5     under the purview of the civilian or the military courts.  On completing

 6     their investigation, the police would hand over the case to the relevant

 7     prosecutors' office, whether civilian or military.  So you did not make a

 8     mistake when you involved the civilian rather than the military police.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that there was some rivalry between the

10     police and the army, as there is everywhere?

11        A.   According to the provisions of the Constitution, when there is an

12     imminent threat of war the civilian police was subordinated to the

13     military command, especially in areas where there was armed combat.  And,

14     in a manner of speaking, it was the army that was in command of the

15     police in certain situations, as far as combat goes, and the army could

16     order the police to engage in combat.  Of course, as is the case with all

17     structures, there was some rivalry, as you say, and occasionally there

18     were conflicts.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Would you believe either one of these structures if,

20     in their reports, they besmirched one another?  Would you believe them or

21     would you think that this was a result of their rivalry and

22     misunderstandings?

23        A.   Well, I can only give you my opinion.  I wouldn't believe anyone.

24     Of course, I would investigate and establish who was right and who was

25     wrong, and punish whoever was to blame.  But, of course, the military

Page 5105

 1     command felt superior in a situation of an imminent threat of war.  And

 2     in certain situations the army disobeyed even you, although you were

 3     their commander-in-chief.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at these minutes from the

 5     15th Session, three days later, and let's see what was proposed in

 6     item 4, a division of labour in the Presidency.

 7             Could I now ask you to read out the first paragraph, AD-1.

 8        A.   "In connection with the first item of the agenda,

 9     Dr. Nikola Koljevic stated why he was discontent with the work of the

10     Presidency.  He stressed that he was discontent with his own performance.

11     He could not endure the work physically or psychologically.  He stressed

12     that he was having family problems which affected his contribution to the

13     work of the Presidency.  He observed that the efficiency of the

14     Presidency was low."

15        Q.   Right.  We can stop there.  Do you agree that the Presidency

16     would work late into the night and that the effects, as the late

17     Professor Koljevic noted, were very small and did not satisfy us?

18        A.   Mr. President, I am not familiar with the system of the work of

19     the Presidency, and I really cannot say anything about that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please have a look at number 4.  Can you

21     tell us what the problem there was, this regional arbitrariness, as it

22     were?

23        A.   AD-1.4.  So, point 4:

24             "The option was suggested that he go to Krajina to crush Krajina

25     separatism.  However, he believes that it would be counterproductive

Page 5106

 1     because they could become too attached to him, which might cause more

 2     damage."

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Can we have the next page in

 5     Serbian.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   The previous paragraph says that he, as a person from Banja Luka

 8     and Krajina, should go to Banja Luka and curb this behaviour of extreme

 9     autonomy in Krajina; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you agree that that was actually a lack of co-ordination and

12     control, and this affinity of the Serbs to behave in such a way, and that

13     that led to what happened in the weeks that followed?

14        A.   I personally think, Mr. President, that the SAOs were a mistake

15     in the organisation of the state -- or, rather, Republika Srpska,

16     because, in that way, mini-states were created in which all branches of

17     government existed; the executive, the judiciary, the legislative.  And,

18     of course, right-wingers that we heard about here at this trial made

19     inappropriate decisions and had inappropriate views at that given point

20     in time, especially at the beginning of the war.  It seems to me -- well,

21     it is my opinion that, in a way, this worked to our detriment and it

22     back-fired.  That's my opinion.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mrs. Plavsic pointed out that it would be

24     counterproductive if anyone resigned from his or her position in these

25     times because it would lead to harmful political consequences, and

Page 5107

 1     Dr. Koljevic withdraw and his family put up in Belgrade, and what was it

 2     that Djeric said?

 3        A.   "Professor Branko Djeric said that the results of the work were

 4     still significant, despite Dr. Nikola Koljevic's self-criticism."

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in

 6     English, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "As he said, improvisational work

 8     cannot continue.  The Presidency operates without a division of tasks.

 9     Closer co-operation with government departments is necessary.  He

10     proposed that working bodies of the Presidency be established.  He did

11     not agree with the statement that little had been done in the

12     Presidency."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Do you remember that after that, we carried out this division,

15     and Mrs. Plavsic was put in charge of humanitarian work and co-operation

16     with UNPROFOR in that sense, and foreign affairs were handled by Koljevic

17     and Buha, and I was in charge of military affairs and so on?

18        A.   Yes, but Professor Plavsic was in charge of humanitarian

19     organisations and exercising control over the prisons and detention

20     centres at local level where non-Serbs were detained.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read out what I said, what Radovan Karadzic

22     said?  It's the next paragraph.

23        A.   "Dr. Radovan Karadzic pointed out that we can not be dissatisfied

24     with our performance.  It was important that we existed, even if we did

25     nothing, because the Presidency was a symbol of the statehood of the

Page 5108

 1     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 2        Q.   Thank you.  The Office of the Presidency, the collective

 3     Presidency at that point in time, was it not to represent the country and

 4     to co-ordinate work among the legislative and the executive?

 5        A.   Like the Queen of England.

 6        Q.   Having tea with guests?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Further on, it says that Professor Koljevic said that he was not

 9     dissatisfied with the work of the Presidency, but with his own

10     contribution.  He pointed out that he could not control the republican

11     commissioners and considered that to be his own failure.  And further

12     down it says that Professor Djeric said that the government and the

13     Presidency did not have proper accommodation, and so on.

14             Do you agree with that?

15        A.   Well, if you remember, Mr. President, we, as the government, were

16     staying at that hotel on the top of Mount Jahorina.  We did not have any

17     proper facilities.  Several times, we tried to move the government to the

18     municipality of Ilidza where there were telecommunication links, after

19     all, and all other links.  However, that did not happen.  So we really

20     worked in very difficult and complex conditions.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can this document be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D440, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 185.

Page 5109

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Minister, do you agree that commissioners were introduced in

 3     order to establish some kind of link between the central organs and the

 4     municipalities, and that that was proposed by the leader of the

 5     opposition party, Dr. Djokanovic?

 6        A.   And in some way to exercise control over the municipal organs on

 7     the ground.

 8        Q.   Do we see that after, what, a month or so, Professor Koljevic

 9     feels helpless and feels that even that did not ensure proper

10     communication between the central organs and the periphery, or, rather,

11     the municipalities?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is this a government session on the

14     8th of July, 1992?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have page 4 in

17     Serbian.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   We see the agenda here.  We actually saw it.  And I see that this

20     part was translated.  Item 9 on the agenda, in Serbian, could you read

21     the fourth paragraph:  "On the basis of experience ..." et cetera?

22        A.   "On the basis of experience acquired in SAO Semberija and

23     Majevica, it has been concluded that the decision on the establishment of

24     war commissioners in municipalities, in a situation of imminent threat of

25     war or when at war, cause a certain confusion that needs to be clarified

Page 5110

 1     as soon as possible."

 2        Q.   Can you read the next one.

 3        A.   "It has been concluded that material be prepared on this.  The

 4     problems, difficulties, obscurities, and the like should be pointed out,

 5     and measures should be proposed.  After that, the government would, if

 6     necessary, submit an appropriate proposal to the Presidency of the

 7     Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 8        Q.   What about the next one; could you read that as well, "... at the

 9     session ..."

10        A.   "What was particularly pointed out at the session was that it was

11     indispensable for the government and the ministers to exercise their

12     rights and responsibilities based on law incessantly in the field.

13     Therefore, it was concluded that visits to the SAO of Bosanska Krajina

14     should be planned as soon as possible, but to other regions as well."

15        Q.   And further on it says that there should be a proposal of a

16     decree how the ministries should function outside the seat of government,

17     and also that the SAOs should be abolished and that the Constitution

18     should be amended; right?

19        A.   Well, since the SAO were a constitutional category, then the

20     Constitution had to be amended and these autonomous provinces had to be

21     thrown out of the Constitution.  That is why the Constitution was being

22     amended.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Can we have the next page,

25     11, and 13.  Actually, it is paragraphs 11 and 13.  It's probably the

Page 5111

 1     next page in English and in Serbian.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Point 1:

 4             "The government has been informed about the level of organisation

 5     and work of judiciary organs in certain regions prepared by your

 6     ministry, the Ministry of Justice."

 7             And can you read this page further on.

 8        A.   "It has been concluded that great problems exist because

 9     judiciary military organs have not started to work yet.

10             "That is one of the greatest obstacles in establishing law and

11     order, legality, and a state based on the rule of law in present

12     conditions.

13             "Bearing this in mind, it has been concluded that a proposal be

14     made to the competent authorities to form and qualify as soon as possible

15     a public prosecutors' office and courts, as soon as possible.

16             "It has also been concluded that, due to emergency, the

17     possibility of delegating authority from military to regular judiciary

18     organs be examined and, if necessary, amendments to appropriate laws

19     should be proposed."

20        Q.   Thank you.  In mid-July, is the situation such that we do not

21     have a military judiciary yet and that there is a feeling of

22     powerlessness on the part of the state to regulate crimes in that area?

23        A.   When there is an imminent threat of war, a vast majority, over

24     95 per cent of crimes committed, all types, all levels, fall under the

25     jurisdiction of the military judiciary.

Page 5112

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Can we have the last page.  Just

 3     one sentence, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The second paragraph.

 6        A.   "Therefore, all regulations have to be passed.  Organs,

 7     organisations, and institutions have to be established which would

 8     actually ensure the existence of a state."

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, unless it

11     hasn't been admitted already?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D441, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Before we take a break, just one question,

15     Mr. Mandic.

16             Can you go back to the previous page, item 11 and 13.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 11 and 13 in Serbian as

18     well, please.  The next one in Serbian.  Yes, right.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  There, it has been concluded, it notes, that

20     it be proposed to the authorised organs to form and qualify the

21     Public Prosecutor' Office and the courts for work as soon as possible,

22     and also that, for emergency reasons, the possibility of authority

23     delegation from military to regular judiciary organs be examined and

24     that, if necessary, amendments to the appropriate laws be proposed.

25             Do you remember what happened afterwards, pursuant to this

Page 5113

 1     conclusion?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Ministry of Justice, as

 3     Mr. Tieger knows, I think, as well as Ms. Korner, wrote about this twice

 4     in order to have this conclusion carried out.  Unfortunately, the

 5     Constitution deals with the military and civilian judiciary, so the

 6     Constitution had to be amended.  During August and September, I think, I

 7     asked for this to be carried out, because we had organised the civilian

 8     judiciary and prosecutors' office better than the military did, and most

 9     of the problems were in the field and fell under the jurisdiction of the

10     military judiciary.

11             So, Your Honours, the proposal I made was that within the

12     civilian judiciary, military departments be established and civilian

13     departments as well, with appropriate jurisdiction, in order to use the

14     judges and prosecutors who were already there and who could deal with

15     these crimes committed both in the military and in the civilian area.

16     The civilian organs were more professional and better organised.

17             Until the government fell, that is to say, until that session

18     that was held in Zvornik on the 23rd of November, that did not happen

19     because the military was opposed to this.  They thought that the civilian

20     judiciary was taking over their powers that had been there for many, many

21     years in the former Yugoslavia.  That was not true.  The intention of the

22     civilian Ministry of Justice, or, rather, the government, was to start

23     working and to start prosecuting individuals or, rather, paramilitaries,

24     all of those who were violating criminal law to a large extent.

25             You will see two of my written communications, and you can also

Page 5114

 1     see the stenographic notes from the Assembly where General Gvero and I

 2     were -- we simply clashed.  He was the person who was in charge of that

 3     segment in the Army of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I'd like to see those communications, but I wonder

 5     in what method we can see the document.  Mr. Tieger can help us later on.

 6     Could you identify --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have just prepared that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             We'll have a break for 25 minutes.  We'll resume five past 4.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Before you begin, Mr. Karadzic:  Have you prepared

15     the documents which you alluded to present to the witness to get brief

16     confirmation?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence has given the

18     Prosecution most of these documents, which are mainly news reports, but I

19     believe that some of the documents from the government and by the

20     minister, himself, we will be giving to the minister to look at them in

21     his spare time and to initial those which he's familiar with and which he

22     confirms.  But that notwithstanding, Excellencies, I believe that it

23     would be a pity, and I'm sure the minister will be angry at me now - it

24     won't it's first time, however - that it would be good if he remain here

25     on Friday as well, because we will not have a witness of this kind for

Page 5115

 1     some time to come.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber's anticipation is that he may be able to

 3     conclude his evidence by tomorrow, so you may ask that during the course

 4     of today's evidence, to the witness.

 5             Let's move on.

 6             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I thought the Court was going

 8     to -- if there's no issue about presenting documents to the witness, then

 9     I -- other than in court, then I --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Admission is a separate matter.

11             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can we see 1D204.  This is a document from the year 2000.  I

14     believe that we do not have a translation, but this is your document,

15     Mr. Minister, from the 10th of July.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you identify it, first and foremost, and then tell us what

18     the second paragraph is about?

19        A.   Yes.  This is a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to

20     the president of the Presidency.  And, yes, I can identify it.

21        Q.   What is the date?

22        A.   The 10th of July, 1992.  In fact, this is my very first letter to

23     you, where I propose how the judiciary should be organised; that I

24     already talked about in describing the situation to Their Honours before

25     the break.

Page 5116

 1        Q.   Am I right when I say that in the first paragraph you inform me

 2     and the Presidency that you had carried out the organising and the

 3     establishment of regular courts of public prosecutorial offices, as well

 4     as municipal misdemeanor courts in the Serbian Republic of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, except in Northern Bosnia, the Doboj region, where it

 6     was not possible to do because of the war actions, and that you were

 7     also -- that that was also in course?

 8             Can you please read paragraph 2, for it to be interpreted slowly,

 9     because we do not have a written translation.  Am I right when I say that

10     you are sending this to the Presidency, because the Assembly is not

11     convening regularly yet?

12        A.   Yes.  The first and the second paragraphs or just the second?

13        Q.   I have re-told the first paragraph, and if you can read the

14     second one.  I meant the Assembly was not convening and that is why you

15     were sending this letter to the Presidency.  And if the Assembly -- had

16     the Assembly convened, you would have sent it to the Assembly?

17        A.   This is how I understood it:

18             "By monitoring the situation in the area of the commission of

19     crimes, a large number of committed crimes has been observed from the

20     jurisdiction 'ratione materie' of military judicial organs which still

21     have not been established.  Therefore, we propose that regular judicial

22     organs, pending the establishment of military judicial organs, take over

23     their duties on a temporary basis.  Thereby, we would considerably

24     contribute to the prevention of the commission of these crimes and

25     contribute to the establishment of a legal order and legal security

Page 5117

 1     throughout the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina."

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In the next paragraph, the ministry states its

 4     opinion that there should be amendments to the Law on the Execution of

 5     Criminal and Misdemeanor Sanctions, et cetera.  And read the next

 6     paragraph.

 7        A.   "Namely, persons sentenced to a term of imprisonment of up to

 8     five years would be sent to serve their sentences only after the end of

 9     the war, while in the meantime they would be engaged in military units.

10     Persons sentence to a term of imprisonment of over five years would be

11     sent to serve their sentences upon the finality of the respective

12     judgement."

13        Q.   Continue.

14        A.   "In this connection, it would be prescribed that prescription

15     period for the execution of these sanctions would not include the time

16     while the convict is in the military unit."

17        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this, Mr. Minister:  So you

18     proposed -- the ministry proposed that persons who were to serve

19     sentences up to five years would serve their sentences after the end of

20     the war.  Did it ever happen that we released criminals in order for them

21     to join some units, and, to the best of your knowledge, was this also

22     done -- was this done by the other side?

23        A.   To the best of my knowledge, I know for a fact that persons who

24     had been sentenced to terms of imprisonment were not released in order to

25     be engaged in the army.  As for the other side, I know, at least as far

Page 5118

 1     as Sarajevo is concerned, that there were some big-time criminals who

 2     were the leaders of some units of Bosnia and Herzegovina's army.  They

 3     were convicts.  Now, whether that was a widespread practice, I don't

 4     know.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page to see

 7     the signature and the stamp, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is this your signature and stamp?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, Excellency?

13     This is one of those documents of a series that you inquired about in

14     connection with what the minister was proposing.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification, pending

16     translation.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D442, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D199, please, or

20     65 ter 11480.  65 ter 11480.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this has been admitted as

22     Exhibit P1136.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Minister, as soon as we get the English version, would you

Page 5119

 1     please read the entire letter.  It's not too long.

 2        A.   It is addressed to the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, to Dr. Radovan Karadzic:

 4             "The Ministry of Justice has sent to the Presidency of the

 5     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina a letter number 01-119/92 of the

 6     10th of July, 1992, in which it is proposing that regular courts and

 7     public prosecutors' offices should temporarily, pending the establishment

 8     of military judicial organs, take over the jurisdiction of military

 9     courts and military prosecutors' offices.  The Presidency has not

10     informed this ministry about its position on this proposal.  That is why

11     we are hereby again submitting this letter to you with the request that

12     you inform us about further activities and measures."

13             This was signed by my deputy.

14        Q.   And it relates to the letter that we just saw a minute ago?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  In fact, this is a reminder, a reminder -- a follow-up

16     to that previous letter.

17        Q.   Thank you.  You expected the Presidency to agree -- to reach

18     agreement with the army, within the space of three weeks, that they

19     actually renounce their powers in this field for this idea to be put into

20     practice.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see P1105, which is

22     minutes from the session held on the 23rd and 24th of November in

23     connection with a reshuffle in the Cabinet.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is that right?

Page 5120

 1        A.   At that session, I spoke -- I spoke at an Assembly session, in

 2     fact, and I proposed that the powers of the military judiciary should be

 3     temporarily delegated to the civilian judiciary.  And Milan Gvero, who

 4     was in charge of the military jurisdiction, discussed this with me.  As

 5     this is a constitutional category, the president of the Assembly, the

 6     speaker, proposed that the item on the agenda be postponed, pending

 7     possible amendments to the Constitution, whereafter we would proceed to a

 8     reshuffle to change the respective jurisdictions of the military and

 9     civilian judiciaries.  As at that session, the prime minister,

10     Mr. Djeric, resigned, and I went to Belgrade.  I don't know what happened

11     afterwards.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see Serbian page 88 and

14     English page 92.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   And tell us succinctly what it was that you advocated at this

17     session.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So Serbian 88, English 92.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The last sentence in the Serbian version:

21             "We have another item, a proposal of a decision for combining

22     military and civilian prosecutorial offices and the judiciary."

23        A.   Yes.  This was a proposal sent to the Assembly.

24        Q.   Yes, thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in

Page 5121

 1     Serbian, and in English also.

 2             Sorry, it is the previous page in English and the next page in

 3     Serbian.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This is your contribution -- this is your speech, Mr. Mandic.

 7     Without reading it, please just tell us the gist of it.

 8        A.   As you have stated, I have already partly explained to this

 9     Honourable Court that I asked that the civilian and military judiciaries

10     be combined, put together, because the military judiciary was not

11     operational, it was not efficient; and, in contrast to it, the civilian

12     judiciary was mainly well-established, but there was no work because of

13     the situation, because of the state of an imminent threat of war.

14             Mainly, the professional judges from the former system, as well

15     as prosecutors, were sitting in the civilian judicial system, but they

16     were not working.  There was a huge accumulation of problems in the

17     field.  The gravest crimes against life and limb and against property

18     were being committed.  There was violations of international conventions

19     of human rights and freedoms from 1949, as well as other documents.

20             And in seeking a way of how to render operational the rule of

21     law, put into practice the rule of law, the ministry also consulted some

22     professors, for instance, Professor Kokolj from the Faculty of Law in

23     Mostar, and proposed that we combine -- put together the two judicial

24     systems in order to put into practice and establish the rule of law.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Let me just explain something.  You say you know --

Page 5122

 1     you say that whenever we are at Assembly sessions, we criticise both

 2     systems, they are not operational, the number of perpetrators and of

 3     crimes is growing; and you say we have to solve this, and we have to

 4     process Serbs -- prosecute Serbs.  Then you go on to say that there are

 5     so many judicial -- holders of judicial offices whom we have elected, but

 6     we do not have a complete system, neither the civilian nor the military

 7     judiciary, but crime is growing.  And towards the end, you say:

 8             "Judges have come to see me, complaining of the way on-site

 9     investigations were carried out.  A military police and a military

10     investigation officer go to the site, and there are big problems," and so

11     on and so forth.

12             Is this the way it was?

13        A.   Yes, these are my very words which are recorded here.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             I recommend to the participants to read this for themselves.

16             Can we go -- scroll down to see what Mr. Krajisnik says.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the interpreters also have it on the

18     screen before Mr. Karadzic proceeds, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   "Let us hear the military, too, and let the initiative be

21     addressed to our constitutional commission, and let us put in charge our

22     ministry and our Main Staff."

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we see the next Serbian

24     page, and the English, too.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5123

 1        Q.   "They are to co-ordinate that material, that it should be dealt

 2     with at the session."

 3             That is my proposal.  And then General Gvero responds.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last sentence.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   "I therefore think ..."  Can you read that.

 7        A.   "I therefore think that the proposal of the president that this

 8     be considered as a suggestion, not to say initiative, to weigh who is in

 9     favour and who is against.  I personally think we would act not only

10     unconstitutionally and unlawfully if we opted for this solution, but we

11     would actually venture into a pioneering exploit, which is something

12     beyond world practice."

13        Q.   And then the speaker, Mr. Krajisnik, is trying to finish this on

14     a conciliatory note, saying:

15             "We should task our ministry with this initiative, so they would

16     contact the Main Staff, and, together with them, analyse the situation,

17     forward it to the Constitutional Committee, which would submit this to

18     the Assembly for deliberation."

19             And then they voted for this?

20        A.   Yes.  I think it was a big mistake.  An operative staff cannot

21     manage the judiciary.  I think they were wrong in involving the

22     Main Staff.  The General Staff has its own departments, one of them in

23     charge of the military judiciary, but these people were operations

24     officers.  They controlled the army.  They could not control the

25     judiciary.  I think it was a big mistake that the initiative of the

Page 5124

 1     Ministry of Justice was not accepted in early July.  There would have

 2     been much, much lower crime rates, and all of them would have been

 3     prosecuted, and we would now be able to present to this Court the result

 4     of these prosecutions and trials.

 5        Q.   I hope, Mr. Minister, that we will be able to present this.

 6     I think the combined sentences given to Serbian perpetrators of crimes

 7     against Muslims and Croats amount to hundreds of years.

 8             Do you know of a single sentence handed down to a Muslim or a

 9     Croat who had done something against the Serbs?

10        A.   I don't doubt that such judgements exist, but I'm trying to be

11     self-critical.  If we had started this earlier, there would have been

12     fewer crimes and these judgements would have served as a deterrent to

13     others.

14             Now, as far as the Muslim side is concerned, I don't know of any

15     prosecutions.  I just don't know about it.

16        Q.   You did confirm that the killer of the Serbian wedding party

17     member, Ramiz Delalic, or Ismet, was portrayed as a hero and invited to a

18     TV show, but then Celo and the other Delalic were liquidated later?

19        A.   Juka Prazina was killed in Belgium, and Caco was killed in

20     Sarajevo.  Caco, the one who ran camps near Trebevic, whereas

21     Ramiz Delalic was also killed in an ambush.

22        Q.   But they did not live long; not because of their crimes against

23     the Serbs, but because they had turned against Avdo Hebib and the Muslim

24     authorities?

25        A.   Well, these are criminal show-downs within the federation.  I

Page 5125

 1     don't know much about that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we done with this document?  Is

 3     there anything the Trial Chamber wants to know with regard to this?  Can

 4     we have it admitted, and move on to another one?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I take it, by the number you gave, this has already

 6     been admitted as a Prosecution exhibit.  And I have some further

 7     questions.

 8             Can we go back to the portion where Mr. Mandic spoke; probably

 9     page 91 in English.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe 92.  Yes, that's right, and

11     it's 88 in Serbian -- 89 in Serbian.

12             JUDGE KWON:  In the latter part of your speech, I note the

13     passage which goes like this:  I'll read out:

14             "I think that at this moment we really need ... there are

15     terrible practical problems, conflicts of jurisdiction.  Was the man who

16     committed a crime in the morning on leave or on holiday?  Is he a

17     civilian or a military conscript?"  Et cetera.

18             Did you see that passage, Mr. Mandic?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I'm following.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could you expand a bit further on this?  At the

21     time, did you have these soldiers who were commuting from home?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, Your Honour, there

23     were lulls when troops went home to wash, to take a change of clothes, or

24     they got home leave from the army.  The rule was that when a conscript

25     leaves his position to go home, if he was on official leave, he was under

Page 5126

 1     the jurisdiction of the army, or if he was going home -- going back to

 2     his position from home when he committed a crime, he was still under the

 3     jurisdiction of the army.

 4             However, this was not quite clear to everyone, and the

 5     authorities in charge of prosecution, the civilian and the military

 6     police, did not always understand who had jurisdiction over individuals

 7     who perpetrated crimes.  But, in fact, everyone who committed a crime in

 8     a war zone or related to war activities fell under the jurisdiction of

 9     military authorities.

10             We complied at the time with the Criminal Code of the

11     Federal Yugoslavia.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

13             My next question is related to the last part of your

14     intervention, which goes like this:  I quote:

15             "Judges came to see me, complaining of the way on-site

16     investigations were carried out.  A military police and a military

17     investigation officer go to the site.  They say, This is a civilian.  He

18     refuses to do the job, so he goes back, then others go to the site, but

19     until they do, things get complicated.  It creates great problems."

20             Could you explain further what this means to me?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a report is received of an

22     incident involving a crime, it's usually the civilian police who goes --

23     who go on-site to investigate; and the police officer, if he's aware of

24     the Criminal Code and criminal law, is able to decide whether the

25     incident falls under the jurisdiction of the military or the civilian

Page 5127

 1     prosecutor, the military or the civilian judiciary.

 2             In the former Yugoslavia, investigative actions were not led by

 3     the prosecutor, but by the investigating judge; and these on-site

 4     investigations were done under the jurisdiction of the Court.  There were

 5     special judges for that, and it would be determined on-site who is or

 6     isn't in charge.  If the one who came first is not -- does not have

 7     jurisdiction and he leaves, then before the one who is really in charge

 8     arrives, clues the superior the site is tampered with, evidence is

 9     destroyed.  And I tried to prevent this sort of thing happening for the

10     judiciary to function more efficiently.

11             Now, another problem was that the military command took judges

12     from the ranks of already-elected civilian judiciary, and they had the

13     right to do that.  They had the right to mobilise people.  And thus, for

14     instance, Rajko Colovic, who was a judge of the Regular Court in

15     Vlasenica, left to become the president of the Military Court in

16     Han Pijesak, and there was an exchange and spill-over and turn-over of

17     staff between the two branches of the judiciary.

18             JUDGE KWON:  What time-frame are you talking about when you

19     testified about Judge Colovic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Summer 1992, when Mr. Colovic was

21     elected president of the State Commission for Exchanges.  He left to

22     become the president of the Regular Court in Vlasenica.  And very soon

23     after, he left again to become the president of the Military Court in

24     Han Pijesak.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just one further -- two further questions:

Page 5128

 1             Who did you mean by "military investigators," separate from

 2     military police?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are military investigating

 4     judges.  You have to understand that the on-site investigation was not

 5     conducted by a prosecutor, but by an investigating judge.  That was a

 6     category of judges that existed in the former Yugoslavia.  And only

 7     investigating judges dealt with on-site investigations.  They would make

 8     protocols of crime-scene investigations, and they would submit it to the

 9     prosecutor, who then decided whether to start a prosecution or not.

10             All the evidence collected by the forensics, by scene-of-crime

11     officers, would be included in that report.  And when the whole file is

12     complete, the investigating judge submits it to the prosecutor, who

13     decides whether elements of the crime -- elements of crime are in

14     existence and sufficient to start a criminal proceedings.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Was the Military Court or judiciary and/or military

16     investigating judge in existence by the time of this speech in, i.e.,

17     November 1992?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were both the military

19     judiciary and military prosecutors' offices.  They were not

20     well-organised and they didn't work well, because the judiciary and

21     military prisons were organised attached to prisons, and every corps had

22     their judicial organ.  The Krajina Corps had its own, the Sarajevo

23     Romanija Corps had its own.  And it was not very efficient.  It was not

24     well-organised.  And crimes and criminals proliferated.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 5129

 1             Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             May I draw the attention of the parties, and primarily the

 4     attention of the Trial Chamber, to pages 13 and 14 of this document,

 5     where Mr. Mandic says:

 6             "I will briefly inform you that in the past five or six Assembly

 7     sessions, out of 100 items on the agenda, 90 dealt with the judiciary and

 8     administration.  And 10 of us from the Department of The judiciary and

 9     Administration worked as best as we could, and we chased the local

10     officials to get them to establish proper judicial organs.  We insisted

11     that this should be discussed by the government.  In fact, somebody

12     insisted that this should be submitted to the government for their

13     decision, but I opposed this because it should be done by the Assembly."

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Does that mean you opposed the idea that the government should be

16     in charge of appointing judges?

17        A.   Yes, because that would have meant that executive authority would

18     interfere with legislative authority and judicial authority.  That would

19     have been wrong.  The government is the executive branch of power.  They

20     should not decide about judges.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this document is already in

22     evidence, can we see 1D2088.  I'm not sure it has been translated.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I just want to show how many of you worked in the judiciary.

25     It's a list of employees in the Ministry of Justice in December 1992.

Page 5130

 1             Tell us, very briefly -- we also see the head of bookkeeping,

 2     et cetera.  Just tell us, by end 1992 --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  That's 16250, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And if I may, in connection with the Court's

 7     question about the time-frame regarding Mr. Colovic and his movement in

 8     connection with the Exchange Commission and judgeships, it may be in --

 9     there's a reference to Mr. Colovic in the 9 June government session, the

10     exhibit number which I don't have at the moment but can get.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is this the entire staff of the Ministry of Justice in 1992?

14        A.   Mr. President, Your Honour, there were 21 people working at the

15     Ministry of Justice.  If you take into account that the last six persons

16     were drivers, who finished only high school, and that numbers 9 to 17

17     were technical services, you will realise that there were only 10 people

18     who established the judicial organs in 1992.  We worked 10, 12 hours a

19     day.  We were constantly in communication with regions.  We talked to

20     future judges and prosecutors.  We started out with one car and had three

21     cars by the end of 1992.

22        Q.   It's recorded as you worked 10, 12 hours.  You said "16 hours a

23     day."  You worked 16 hours a day?

24        A.   Yes, 16 hours a day.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can better understand you now,

Page 5131

 1     because that's what we are doing now; we are working 16 hours a day here.

 2             Can we have this document admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D443, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is already in evidence.  The

 6     session was held on the 23rd and 24th November, and the Trial Chamber

 7     will find all of it interesting.

 8             May I now ask for 65 ter 127 in e-court.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While we're waiting for that:  Do you remember, Minister, that

11     you made appeals in the media for persons who had passed the bar exam to

12     speak up?  And I think that we discussed it over the past few days.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether this is the

15     17th Presidency Session on the 11th of July?  And then I'd like to look

16     at items 2 and 4.

17        A.   AD or items on the agenda?

18        Q.   Items on the agenda.  And then we'll deal with item 2.

19        A.   "Agenda:

20             "1.  Adoption of the minutes of the 15th Session.

21             "2.  Issuing a public statement to the people on the question of

22     moving and retaining people."

23        Q.   Thank you.  2 now.

24        A.   "It was concluded that a decision be adopted on the signing of a

25     proclamation and the moving out and retention of citizens from certain

Page 5132

 1     parts of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina, and on guarantees and safety,

 2     on condition that the people be disarmed, hostile activities cease, and

 3     peace be established."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  What is meant are the Muslims and Croats who live in

 5     our territory, they are asked to become civilians; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read AD-3, number 2.

 8        A.   "The proposal was adopted to convene the Assembly on the

 9     22nd of July, 1992, in Pale.  It is necessary to discuss at the Assembly

10     the functioning of the authorities and the question of the organisation

11     of the Serb autonomous districts."

12        Q.   Just the first sentence of item 4.

13        A.   "All nominations for military prosecutors were verified."

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page,

15     number 6.  In English, could we just scroll down.  It's the same page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is a special commission being appointed here for crimes -- for

18     dealing with crimes committed against Serbs in the territory of the

19     federation?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D444, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D2099.

Page 5133

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is that the proclamation that is referred to in item 2 of the

 3     agenda of this Presidency session?  It's the same day, the

 4     11th of July, 1992; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to present this briefly.

 7             In the first paragraph, what is referred to is genocide in what

 8     was later turned into the federation, and, secondly, it says:

 9             "The Presidency recalls that the Geneva Convention states that

10     civilians living in areas affected by war must be allowed to leave the

11     area.  Furthermore, emigration can only be voluntary; therefore, it

12     cannot be either obstructed or encouraged.

13             "All citizens of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina of

14     Croat and Muslim ethnicity shall be guaranteed all rights ensured by a

15     state based on the rule of law."

16             And so on and so forth.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page, and in

18     English it's the same page.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Minister, do you agree that with the exception of Drvar, where

21     there perhaps weren't very many Croats, one or two, but there weren't any

22     Muslims, that there was not a single town or settlement in Bosnia -- in

23     Republika Srpska that was ethnically pure?

24        A.   As far as I know, there was no such town.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 5134

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Indeed, many had left.  We are

 2     going to clarify that.  But I have a set of regulations here that shows

 3     that all the way up until the end of the war there was not a single

 4     settlement that was ethnically pure.

 5             Can this be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D445, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 186, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Let me ask you, Minister:  Do you remember or do you know that

11     even on Romanija, which is well known as a mountain of outlaws, there

12     were several villages that had surrendered their weapons, and the

13     population -- the Muslim population remained there all the way up until

14     the end of the war?

15        A.   I know Renovica, Vraca, and around Sokolac there were two or

16     three villages.  The Muslim population stayed there throughout the war.

17        Q.   Satorovici, Burati, and so on.  I've forgotten all the names.

18     Pale, yes.  Yes, Pale is not in the transcript.  Yes.

19             Do you know of a single village, Serb village, in the

20     Muslim-Croat federation that remained intact up until September 1992,

21     that survived as such until September 1992?

22        A.   I cannot give you an answer to that.  I was not familiar with any

23     of that.

24        Q.   Thank you.  This is a document of minutes of the 38th Session,

25     held on the 11th of July, so we are dealing with July all the time;

Page 5135

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 5 in Serbian,

 4     AD-10.  So it's item 10 of the conclusions, actually.  It says "Current

 5     Issues."

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you see that?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, could we have it in

 9     English, too, AD-10.  I don't know what the page is.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Page 5.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   2 and 3, could you have a look at that.

14        A.   2 --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Please carry on, Mr. Mandic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18             Item 2:

19             "The Ministry of Information is entrusted with informing, in a

20     suitable way, the parents whose children are captured in the territory of

21     our republic, that they will be tried according to our regulations; that

22     full lawfulness will be secured, and their rights and freedom will be

23     observed; that international rules will be respected, and that adequate

24     regulations have already been passed regarding this matter."

25             Number 3:

Page 5136

 1             "A working group has been established, made up of

 2     Milan Trbojevic, deputy prime minister, and representatives of the

 3     Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Health,

 4     Work, Welfare and Family Matters, to prepare a set of regulations on the

 5     treatment of Muslims and other nations on the territory of the

 6     Serb Republic of BH.  In accordance with this, the constitutional rights

 7     and obligations, international conventions on human rights and freedoms

 8     that oblige us have to be taken into consideration."

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   How about the last sentence?

11        A.   "A broader debate should be held on the proposed document

12     exclusively at the session of the Serb people of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

13        Q.   Do you agree that in item 8 you inform the government yet again

14     about that proposal to transfer the jurisdiction of military courts to

15     regular courts?  Minister, you know that Serb military conscripts had to

16     respond to call-up.  Do you agree that Muslims and Croats in

17     Republika Srpska had a privileged status or, rather, that there was

18     positive discrimination; namely, that they did not have to go into the

19     Army of Republika Srpska?

20        A.   I know that they didn't have to, and I know that, for instance,

21     in Trebinje, there was a brigade that consisted of ethnic Muslims who

22     fought in the Army of Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   In Krajina and in Northern Bosnia as well.  Now, one of the

24     commanders of this Muslim unit is now a president of a municipality.  Do

25     you remember that we did not send such Muslim units to the front-line

Page 5137

 1     against the Muslims; rather, they were sent to the HVO front-line?

 2        A.   I don't know about that, Mr. President.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can this be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit this.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D446, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09243,

 8     please.

 9             I'm not sure about this.  The English seems to be all right, but

10     009243 in Serbian.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that there seems to be a mistake in

12     uploading.  Both versions seem to be in English.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The English version is all right.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This has to do with a strictly confidential document, copy

16     number 7:

17             "Brief review of the functioning of the MUP so far and outlines

18     of its future activities.  Summary of the meeting of senior MUP officials

19     on the 11th of July, 1992."

20             I am going to put it to you in Serbian, and the other

21     participants can follow in English.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have English page 7,

23     please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 5138

 1             I understand that the incorrect B/C/S version is up-loaded.  At

 2     the moment, we're looking for the corresponding correct original, and

 3     we'll -- okay.  We're actually printing it out now.  That seems to be the

 4     most expeditious way.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On page 5 in Serbian, let's just see who is speaking there.  It's

 9     Stojan Zupljanin, and he says:

10             "The War Presidency makes decisions, and their implementation is

11     carried out by the MUP."

12             Then Zupljanin presented some of the proposals and problems that

13     have to do with the activity of the Ministry of the Interior.

14             And now the first point is:

15             "The army and crisis staffs," or, rather, "the War Presidency

16     asked for as many Muslims as possible to be rounded up, and such

17     undefined camps are left to the organs of the Ministry of the Interior.

18     Conditions are very poor in these camps."

19             I believe that the other participants in these proceedings can

20     see that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's page 8, the army and

22     the crisis staffs.  So can I have page 8, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So, in actual fact, is this the basis of this misunderstanding;

25     namely, what should be done with the civilian population in combat areas?

Page 5139

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure Mr. Mandic was able to follow.  Do you

 2     like to see the original?  It's a document of 29 pages, and it's now

 3     being printed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have understood.  I

 5     mean, I have understood what -- but, you see, I don't have an answer to

 6     that.  I was not aware of the situation there, so I cannot respond,

 7     Mr. President.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   However, do you know that top police officials fought for the

10     establishment of lawfulness and legality as best they could?

11        A.   I know that in July or August 1992 we established a government

12     commission consisting of representatives of the Ministries of Justice,

13     Police, and Defence respectively, I think.  They toured the area, that is

14     to say, all of Republika Srpska, they went to all municipalities, and

15     they instructed crisis staffs and the army to close down illegal camps,

16     detention centres, and so on.

17             On several occasions, they found civilians there who had not

18     participated at all in any of the war operations.  I remember that one

19     commission went to Herzegovina, another one went to Central Bosnia, and

20     yet another commission went to the Krajina.

21             A report was drafted on that occasion, and I submitted it to the

22     government and the Presidency on that very same day.  I can speak about

23     that, of course.  I can confirm that.  And I can confirm that, too, that

24     the police of Republika Srpska was trying, in every conceivable way, to

25     enforce legality on all levels on the ground.

Page 5140

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now you'll get the Serbian version, per kind favour

 2     of Mr. Tieger.

 3             Let us look at page 5 in Serbian.  We are on the right page in

 4     English.  It says that:

 5             "Only in one action in Mrkonjic Grad, there were 20 casualties,

 6     20 policemen -- active-duty and reserve policemen got killed, so they

 7     took part in such operations.  And also it says here that the ratio of

 8     active-duty and reserve servicemen abroad is 1:3.7, and here it is 1:3.

 9     There are about 8.500 active-duty and reserve members in the region at

10     the moment, 142 of -- who are of other ethic backgrounds."

11             And if we can go further down:

12             "Dealing with the government of the SAO Krajina, there will be

13     less interventions, and less influence will be exerted.  Also, the

14     functional system of communications has broken down."

15             Do you see that on page 7?

16        A.   This precisely is confirmation of what I said before; namely,

17     that the autonomous districts, the SAOs, were actual mini state-lets in

18     themselves.  They had all the branches of power.  And that was the

19     problem that the central authorities had to grapple with, because they

20     were actually divested of their power until the autonomous districts were

21     dismantled.

22        Q.   Look at page 6 now, please:

23             "The military judiciary is not functioning, the judges have not

24     been elected," et cetera.

25             This is all by Mr. Zupljanin, who is presenting the problems that

Page 5141

 1     they are encountering:

 2             "Several thousands of court cases aren't finished.  There are no

 3     judges for criminal cases.  They are afraid.  They are being threatened.

 4     In some municipalities, the courts are not functioning.  Inveterate

 5     criminals are being released from prisons, which affects the work of the

 6     interior organs as well as of the entire states."

 7             And then it goes on to say:

 8             "Measures should be taken at the same time to clarify some

 9     provisions of the law regulating this matter, to re-organise courts, to

10     set up investigation centres, because this is also foreseen under the

11     Law on Criminal Procedure.  The three-day detention is inadequate, and we

12     should consider the proposal for the Presidency of the Serbian Republic

13     of Bosnia and Herzegovina to compose a decree, prescribe a provision

14     according to which detention could last up to 21 days.  This was received

15     in the Presidency, but we did not accept this detention by the police of

16     21 days, if you recall."

17             Does this tell you what the magnitude was of the difficulties

18     that these centres were faced with?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Would you say that this is a correct position and that great

21     effort is made by the chief of the centre to identify problems and to see

22     to it that they are rectified?

23        A.   Here, the problems are enumerated that we have already discussed.

24        Q.   So we cannot say that the chief of the police in Banja Luka is

25     ignoring problems or that he is pleased that there are problems, but that

Page 5142

 1     he's actually saddened by them and that he's seeking for a solution;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 9 in English; page 6 in

 5     Serbian.  Actually, no --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on, Mr. Karadzic, there's a passage,

 7     probably on page 6 in Serbian, which goes to the effect:

 8             "Several thousands of court cases are not finished.  There are no

 9     judges for court cases.  They believe they are being threatened.  In some

10     settlements, courts are not functioning."

11             Are we talking about a civilian judiciary?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Zupljanin is

13     talking about the civilian judiciary, but this is a back-log of cases

14     from peacetime, litigations, criminal cases, et cetera, the back-log that

15     the judiciary had to deal with.  These are not cases which arose in the

16     war.  There were several thousand cases in different courts, litigations,

17     non-contentious cases, criminal cases, investigations, et cetera.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   So on page 6 we see the speech of Andrija Bjelosevic, head of the

21     Doboj Centre of Security Services of the Doboj region.

22             Can we move on to page 7 of the Serbian, and in English it is

23     still page 9.

24             The first paragraph:

25             "It was agreed with the army that after the liberation of these

Page 5143

 1     territories, the engaged policemen should return, but the army is now

 2     preventing that.  These other policemen cannot go to the police stations

 3     to perform their regular duties within the organ of the interior."

 4             Do you recall that the commanders first mobilised the police and

 5     then were reluctant to let them go because they needed every soldier?

 6        A.   The competent corps commander decided on engaging police, and I

 7     have said repeatedly that very often the police would be engaged in

 8     combat and that it was re-subordinated to the military command in

 9     question.  Sometimes the army would not return the policemen to their

10     regular duties, but kept them under their control and command for

11     possible further engagement.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Can we see English page number 10.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   And Mr. Bjelosevic is proposing that financing should be solved

16     at the central level, and he says:

17             "He who pays, he can order.  We have to resolve financial

18     matters.  We have to prevent any involvement of local politics, as a

19     typical example."

20             And then he goes on to say:

21             "Persons that are captured or picked up by the army and brought

22     in groups and without any documents documenting the reasons for their

23     arrest are to be taken care of by the army; whereas persons taken

24     captive, arrested by organs of the interior, remained within the control

25     of the MUP, needless to say, against proper documentation."

Page 5144

 1             We see the next paragraph that --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's comment:  This is absolutely

 3     impossible to follow.  Would Mr. Karadzic indicate the paragraph that he

 4     is reading.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It's impossible for the interpreters to follow what

 6     you're reading, so could you kindly indicate what passage you are reading

 7     from so that they can follow.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7 in Serbian.  Page 7 in

 9     Serbian, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time.  We can continue after the break,

11     or you would like to conclude this part of your examination?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is up to you, Your Honour.  We

13     still do not have page 7 on the screen, so perhaps after the break we can

14     continue.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for 25 minutes.  We'll

16     resume at quarter to 6.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have page 7 before us?

20             Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we do now have page 7.  So in

22     English it should be page 10.  Yes.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Bjelosevic also says that:

25             "We should settle the financing question.  He who pays, he is the

Page 5145

 1     one who gives orders."

 2             And now we have the paragraph that the OTP also stressed; namely:

 3             "Persons taken captive or picked up by the army are being brought

 4     in groups and left without any accompanying documents about the reasons

 5     of their arrest."

 6             And now he's calling for regularity; namely, that these captives

 7     should be taken care of by the army, and those who have been arrested

 8     because of criminal offences should have been taken care of -- should be

 9     taken care of by the police.

10             And then the next paragraph, he says:

11             "Combat actions liberate new areas, and with the

12     previously-committed crimes by the enemy ..."  meaning against the Serbs;

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   " ... primarily looting, certain Serbs are also now committing

16     them when these places are liberated."

17             Do you remember and do you agree that during the war some places

18     were taken, i.e., liberated, that would later be returned, for instance,

19     Jajce or Odjak, and that this was military logic while the war was on and

20     the combat operations were on?  Does this refer to places that were taken

21     for military purposes, for military reasons?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Do you see here that, in this same paragraph, that they were

24     also -- or, actually, that authorised persons opposed the looters, and

25     they drew weapons at them; and the police was unable to

Page 5146

 1     efficiently-enough prevent such looting, because it says in this

 2     paragraph weapons would be drawn to prevent the interior organ in

 3     executing his duty preventing looting?  Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, which

 6     will be very brief.  It begins with "Cvijetic."  We can also use the

 7     English.  Can we see the English page.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Take a look at this.  Manning, personnel, especially in police

10     station, problems regarding crime, the problem of involving the militia,

11     the police, in combat operations, the isolation of Ilidza and Nedzarici

12     because the airport was handed over to UNPROFOR, which hinders

13     communication, et cetera.  And they would not, if you remember, let us

14     use the runway to pass.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, also in

17     English.  The next page, please.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone for the

19     speaker, please.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is Krsto Savic reporting on

21     the situation in Herzegovina.

22             Can we have the next page in Serbian too, please.

23             Yes, he says that he cannot talk about -- speak about old

24     Herzegovina because there are no connections?

25        Q.   What is the old Herzegovina?

Page 5147

 1        A.   It is the Romanija Plateau, Foca, Herzegovina, up to the

 2     Neretva River, and a part of Montenegro which now belongs to the

 3     Montenegrin state.

 4        Q.   Cajnice, Rudo, et cetera?

 5        A.   Yes, from the Romanija Plateau.

 6        Q.   Here, the chief of that service says that he cannot speak about

 7     old Herzegovina because there are no connections, no communication with

 8     it.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, he says that there are no communications.

10        Q.   Thank you.  He goes on to say the capability of the police is in

11     close connection with the establishment of authority, which is still not

12     operational, while reserve police units are holding the front combat

13     lines.  He then goes on to say that 10 have been killed and 35 wounded,

14     and that neither the civilian or the military prosecutors' offices is

15     functioning in this territory.  It is impossible to get paramilitary

16     formations out of Trebinje, for example, so that it is imperatively

17     necessary to demand that either they be put under the command of the

18     Army of the Serb Republic or that they leave the territory.

19             Do you remember that we arrested a group there precisely in his

20     Nevesinje?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Mr. Minister, here in the indictment, in the joint criminal

23     enterprise, along with my own name, are also mentioned some persons whom

24     we arrested; a certain Zuca and some members of paramilitary units,

25     et cetera.

Page 5148

 1             Do you know of a single paramilitary unit that we tolerated the

 2     moment we knew about it?

 3        A.   I know that in 1992, in the summer, the police arrested some

 4     Yellow Wasps in Zvornik, and Zuca was one of them.  I know that the army

 5     arrested Chetniks, or people who called themselves Seselj's men, at the

 6     Jewish cemetery.  And I know that very often there were conflicts --

 7     clashes between the army troops and the paramilitary units which did not

 8     wish to put themselves under the command of the regular army.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Here, distinguished Mr. Tieger has shown a picture

10     from 1992, towards the end of the war, of me meeting Arkan and his unit.

11     Do you remember that in 1991 -- sorry, in 1995 -- that, in 1991, Arkan

12     was arrested by the Croatian authorities, but they did not file a

13     criminal complaint against him, but exchanged him, because there was no

14     criminal offence?

15        A.   Raznatovic was arrested in Zagreb as the leader of the Delijas,

16     the fans of the Red Star Soccer Club.  And as far as I know, he was

17     released and returned to Belgrade.

18        Q.   From 1991 to 1995, was there a single criminal complaint filed

19     against him?

20        A.   Not to my knowledge.

21        Q.   Do you agree that his unit operated in a quite -- that it struck

22     one, actually, as quite disciplined and quite well-equipped, the one that

23     we saw on that photograph?

24        A.   I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Do you agree that in the autumn of 1991, against us were arranged

Page 5149

 1     3 million Muslims and Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 5 million

 2     inhabitants of Croatia, and the NATO, in the autumn of 1995, just before

 3     the end of the war?

 4        A.   What I know is that the Republika Srpska was bombarded by the

 5     NATO Alliance.  The Bosnian Serbs were at war with the Bosnian Muslims,

 6     of whom there were, together with the Bosnian Croats, around 3 million.

 7     That I know.  Immediately before the Flash and Storm operations in

 8     Croatia, they were at war with -- Croatia was at war with the Serbs from

 9     the Krajina there and also with the Serbs across the Una River in the

10     Bosnian Krajina.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that the fall of so many

12     municipalities in the Krajina, in Glamoc, Grahovo -- of Glamoc, Grahovo,

13     Mrkonjic Grad, Sanski Most, Kljuc, et cetera, that it was a tragedy, and

14     that it was a case of extreme necessity, and the last-ditch defence of

15     the Serbian People?

16        A.   I cannot state an opinion on that issue.  I'm not familiar with

17     the subject-matter.

18        Q.   But do you agree that that autumn, from September until the peace

19     agreement was concluded in October, quite a few of these municipalities

20     and large areas fell?

21        A.   I know that the regular Croatia Army arrived 16 kilometres from

22     Banja Luka, that it cleansed all the Krajina of Serbs, and that

23     General Ante Gotovina switched on and switched off lights some

24     16 kilometres from Banja Luka.

25        Q.   Did you hear that, at that time, Arkan was there and fought under

Page 5150

 1     the command of the MUP?

 2        A.   I don't know that.

 3        Q.   Did you hear that he or his unit committed any crimes or a single

 4     crime in the autumn of 1995?

 5        A.   As far as the waging of war by Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, is

 6     concerned, I practically know nothing about it, and especially not about

 7     what he did in 1995.  I have no information whatsoever to whom he was

 8     subordinated, in what way, or any other information of that kind.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We shall see about that with

11     somebody else.

12             Can we now see the next page in both English and Serbian.

13             JUDGE KWON:  While the page changes, Mr. Mandic:  You confirmed

14     that from 1991 to 1995 there was not a single complaint against

15     Raznatovic, or Arkan?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked by Mr. Karadzic whether

17     there were any criminal reports.  Well, probably in Belgrade, where he

18     lived, in Serbia, some criminal reports might have been filed, but I,

19     myself, was not aware that he was subject to criminal proceedings at that

20     time.

21             JUDGE KWON:  You said not to your knowledge, but my question was:

22     As long as there's an information, you don't need a complaint from

23     somebody else in order to start investigation or prosecution?  Am I

24     correct in so understanding?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we're talking about

Page 5151

 1     the period from 1992 to 1995, I was living and working in Belgrade at the

 2     time.  As far as I know at that time in Serbia, there were no criminal

 3     proceedings against Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, in the regular prosecutors'

 4     offices and courts.  As for other places, I have no information.  And

 5     that's what I told Mr. Karadzic.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I'll leave it there.

 7             Let's move on.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree, Minister, that Mr. Raznatovic was not in

10     Republika Srpska from the 10th of April, when he was in Zvornik, until

11     the autumn of 1995, when he came to help in the Krajina when these

12     municipalities fell?

13        A.   For the sake of Their Honours and for your sake, Mr. President,

14     I'll say that all I know is that in March there was an incident and a

15     conflict in Bijeljina, when members of the Presidency, that is,

16     Biljana Plavsic and Fikret Abdic, together with Simovic, went to

17     Bijeljina.  Then I saw that Zeljko Raznatovic was in Bijeljina with his

18     unit.  After this, I did not have an opportunity to learn anything about

19     his movements either in Bosnia-Herzegovina or in Croatia or anywhere

20     else.

21             You know, Mr. President, that as of December 1992, I lived in

22     Belgrade, where I was the chief of the Office for Refugees and for the

23     Wounded, and so I had no knowledge of these events, especially not in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that my learned friend, Mr. Tieger,

Page 5152

 1     played a conversation between a secretary in the MUP and Raznatovic of

 2     the 16th of April, and that she did not know who was in control of

 3     Zvornik, and he was saying that he had already left Zvornik?  This was on

 4     the 16th of April, 1992.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   I think we clarified this when Mr. Tieger insisted.  This had to

 6     do with the capture of a driver who took a family to Belgrade, and there

 7     were Muslims involved, and this lady, Radmila - not Radmila Radovcic who

 8     was my secretary, but another Radmila - spoke to Raznatovic.  At that

 9     time, we did not establish where he was.  He didn't know what had

10     happened in Zvornik.  We were looking for that young man to help us.

11        Q.   Do you remember that he was certainly not in Zvornik because he

12     was trying to get through to Zvornik on the phone, without any success?

13     Is that correct?

14        A.   Well, from that conversation we concluded he was not in Zvornik,

15     because he was trying to contact Zvornik to learn what was going on

16     there.  But where he actually was was something we couldn't establish

17     based on that intercept.

18        Q.   Do you agree that the Army of Republika Srpska was critical, not

19     to say hostile, towards Arkan and that the Croatian Army was hostile

20     towards Arkan; and had they had any grounds for doing so, they would have

21     filed a criminal report against him?

22        A.   I know for certain that there was enmity and disagreement among

23     all the paramilitary units and the Army of Republika Srpska.  As regards

24     the Croatian Army, I don't know, and I can't say anything about that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that after we arrested the Yellow Wasps

Page 5153

 1     and reported them, the Yellow Wasps were tried in Serbia for war crimes

 2     committed in Zvornik?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In some of the trials here, as I've seen in the judgements or in

 5     the testimonies, the OTP suggested that we arrested them because they

 6     were stealing vehicles.  However, it can be seen from the criminal report

 7     that the car keys were found in their possession only after their arrest.

 8     Was our criminal report, which we sent to Serbia, was it drawn up because

 9     of thefts of cars or because of war crimes?

10        A.   Mico Stanisic issued the order that these Wasps, or whatever they

11     were called, be arrested because of the crimes they had committed; that

12     is, rapes, murders, looting of property, and destruction of property of

13     the population that had fled.

14             This is the first time I've heard of these cars or vehicles,

15     Mr. President.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 13 in

18     English, and it's the page we see in Serbian.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   We see the name "Aleksandar Pantic" here.  It's page 13 in

21     English.  He's again reporting on the situation in Bijeljina.  He says

22     it's a transit area, that paramilitary units hang around there, that

23     members of the Red Berets launched two attacks on the police station in

24     Brcko but were then disarmed.

25             Do you agree that there were groups buying red berets and

Page 5154

 1     parading around wearing these red berets, and that this had nothing to do

 2     with the police from Serbia?

 3        A.   These paramilitary units gave themselves different names and

 4     dressed in different ways.  They wore red caps or Serbian "sajkaca" caps

 5     and other parts of Serbian national costume.  As to who these Red Berets

 6     were, I have no idea.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Further on, we see that this gentleman, Mr. Pantic,

 8     is complaining that although check-points are in place, criminals bypass

 9     the check-points very skillfully, and he agrees with the description of

10     the difficulties encountered in other centres.  Is this correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can skip over page 14.  It's

14     14 in English, so let's look at page 15, where Mr. Jesuric, the chief of

15     the Department for Foreign Nationals and Passports, reports on matters

16     within his purview, but these are not so important as regards the hunting

17     down of criminals.

18             So let's move on, two pages further on in the Serbian version.

19     Yes.  Do we have page 14 in English?  Mr. Stanisic, Mico Stanisic,

20     minister -- no, the Serbian page was the one we had before.  That's the

21     right page, yes.  But in English I don't see where Mico Stanisic begins.

22     Probably page 13.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 12.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 14.  Yes, yes, this is where

25     it begins.

Page 5155

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mico Stanisic is summing up what was heard at the meeting, and in

 3     the second paragraph it says:

 4             "He emphasised that the government was working on a new

 5     political-territorial division of the Serb Republic in order to avoid the

 6     previously necessary forms of Serb autonomous districts and regions and

 7     to introduce districts."

 8             Is this correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then he goes on to describe the difficult conditions in which

11     work and life went on, and he says that Ustasha arriving from Croatia and

12     Sandzak, strengthening the Muslim-Croat coalition.

13             Do you remember that up to 60.000 members of the regular

14     Croatian army were present in Sandzak?

15        A.   I know that Croats crossed the Rivers Sava and Una in the border

16     villages and that they engaged in combat, but I don't know what numbers

17     were there.

18        Q.   But you agree that these guards brigades from Split and Dubrovnik

19     entered Bosnia-Herzegovina from the south and that there were as many as

20     60.000 of them at times?

21        A.   I know that they entered the territory of Herzegovina from

22     Dubrovnik, Split, and Omarska, but I really don't know the numbers of

23     those who did so.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 13 in Serbian and

25     15 in English.

Page 5156

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Look at this passage:

 3             "In spite of all this, we have to do our best, and we have to be

 4     responsible for our area of competency.  There is constant discussion of

 5     the need to prevent looting, to maintain law and order, to ensure the

 6     security of citizens, and so on, but it must be kept in mind that certain

 7     obstacles have to be removed and that the conditions have to be created

 8     for the more efficient work of the organs of the interior," and so on.

 9             "As military courts are not functioning, a soldier arrested for

10     committing a crime is afterwards released and he goes back to his unit,"

11     and so on and so forth.

12             "In order to discover and prevent crimes, the check-points are

13     still not functioning efficiently.  And bearing in mind that the army's

14     participating in the check-points --"

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 16 in English.

16     Page 16 in English.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   The minister is referring to ordinary soldiers manning the

19     check-points, not the commands; do you agree?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   He says:

22             "Otherwise, the basic thing from which we will not depart is that

23     the Ministry of the Interior is a professional organisation, that is, a

24     professional police force, without any influence of politics, which means

25     individuals, groups, parties."

Page 5157

 1             After that:

 2             "The Presidency of the Serb Republic adopted the decision,

 3     forbidding party activities in a war regime."

 4             And then he says:

 5             "The Ministry of the Interior will survive or disappear,

 6     depending on whether a state is established and continues to exist."

 7             So do you recall that at the request of Prime Minister Djeric I

 8     put on hold the work of the Serbian Democratic Party, but many other

 9     parties became active, so I reactivated the Serbian Democratic Party in

10     February 1993?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 14 in Serbian.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   It says here:

16             "In order to establish full constitutionality and legality, we've

17     decided to prevent crimes committed not only by civilians, but also by

18     soldiers and officers, active policemen, members of the Ministry of the

19     Interior who committed crimes."

20             Minister, can we say that this police leadership was turning a

21     blind eye to the commission of crimes?

22        A.   I think that the Serbian police was doing its job professionally

23     and according to the law.  One of the reasons of the conflict -- for the

24     conflict between Mico Stanisic, the minister of the police, and

25     Biljana Plavsic, a member of the Presidency, was that Stanisic ordered

Page 5158

 1     arrests and prosecutions of paramilitary units, and Biljana Plavsic

 2     opposed this.  She called on those paramilitary units to come and enter

 3     the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This was a big problem because she

 4     was in a position of authority at that time and had influence among the

 5     Serbian people.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can we have page 18 - it's 17 in English - where Drago Borovcanin

 8     is speaking.  And the sentence I'm interested in is on page 18.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   He puts a question, Drago Borovcanin.

11             Page 18 in English.

12        A.   "Who was in charge of issuing certificates or documents for

13     various convoys?"

14             He asked that this issue be regulated.  Then he also raised the

15     issue of check-points which should be mixed.  By "mixed," he means both

16     police and military police.

17        Q.   Can you look at what is on the screen?  Drago Borovcanin says:

18             "What should be done, and what about the Muslims who want to move

19     to another country or the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina held

20     by the Muslim and Croat forces?"

21             At one of the government sessions - probably these minutes have

22     already been admitted into evidence or will be - there's an item on the

23     agenda to the effect that the government still doesn't know what the

24     criteria are for Muslims leaving or moving out.  I will tell you what I

25     know about it.

Page 5159

 1             Muslims asked to be allowed to move -- to change their place of

 2     residence.  The municipal authorities gave their permission.  It was only

 3     in two municipalities that they obstructed this in an illegal manner.

 4     However, they asked for various documents, ranging from three to fifteen

 5     various documents.

 6             What happened in the government?  Was it about the criteria to

 7     permit them to move or to not permit them to move?

 8        A.   We actually had that admitted today, those minutes.  We discussed

 9     it.  That was probably the case, but I don't remember what the criteria

10     were and what had to do with that, Mr. President.  I can't remember.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see here that Borovcanin says that:

12             "It is indispensable that those who are involved in crime be

13     removed from our ranks"?

14             Now I'm going to ask you the following:  If it is undeniable that

15     there were policemen who committed crimes and that the top echelons of

16     the police treated them this way, do you know that the impression was

17     created, through indictments and proceedings, not only that this police

18     had neglected the commission of crimes in their territory, but that they

19     even committed some crimes themselves?  What do you say to that?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I object, Your Honour.

22             I think it's irrelevant, whatever this witness thinks he knows or

23     doesn't know about proceeding -- about the impression gained through

24     indictments and proceedings.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We agree.

Page 5160

 1             Could you reformulate the question, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Minister, since you were assistant minister in the joint MUP for

 5     a long time and for a short period of time in Republika Srpska and you

 6     were minister of justice for almost a year, can you say that that is

 7     correct or incorrect; namely, that the police of Republika Srpska did not

 8     only treat crimes negligently, but that they even committed them in an

 9     organised way?  I'm not asking you what you think.  I'm asking what you

10     know about that.

11        A.   All the police from the joint Ministry of the Interior of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina of Serb ethnicity transferred to the Serb MUP and they

13     worked there, so these are professionals who were involved in that line

14     of work for many years.  It is certain, like in any police force in the

15     world, there are individuals who are corrupt and who committed certain

16     crimes.  That can be the case in any police force in the world, in

17     democratic countries, in different regimes, socialist and others.  I'm

18     certain that in 1992 the police did not commit any crimes in an organised

19     fashion.  They either waged war, under the command of the army, or

20     protected law and order.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we now have page 18 in English.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Negus, assistant minister for legal, administrative, and

25     personnel affairs, suggests that our report be compiled on illegal acts

Page 5161

 1     committed by paramilitary formations.  He also supports

 2     Andrija Bjelosevic, who pointed out that inspectors and senior personnel

 3     from the seat of the MUP go to Doboj so that the MUP would be felt to be

 4     functioning, which would reflect on discipline.

 5             At that point in time, did teams -- were teams from the ministry

 6     headquarters seconded, were they sent elsewhere?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Dobro Planojevic --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have his remarks here, so could

10     the participants kindly read that sentence, and then could we have

11     page 19.  In Serbian, we can still keep the same page.  Oh, no.  No, no.

12     No.  In Serbian, we don't even have page 16.  So could I have page 16 in

13     Serbian, and in English could the participants please read this:  "Dobro

14     Planojevic ..."  and then his first sentence.  And then let's move on to

15     the next page.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   It's that same person by the name of Dobro Planojevic who issued

18     those instructions on the 8th of June, I believe.

19        A.   That's an order.

20        Q.   Order; you're right.

21             Now, in July, Mr. Planojevic is saying how it was that he issued

22     that, and once again he says --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we have 16 in

24     Serbian.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5162

 1        Q.   "Crimes should be documented, especially war crimes.  All crimes

 2     should be documented, and those that cannot be documented for any reason,

 3     that is to say, on-site investigation reports, photographs, expert

 4     opinions, medical reports, et cetera, it's necessary to compile lists of

 5     war criminals which are ..." and so on, so that none of this would remain

 6     unpunished.

 7             It says here that there are some cases that some policemen are

 8     fleeing from certain units because they don't want to operate with

 9     criminals; that's to say, that there are criminals at the front-line.

10     There is a danger of having a proper conflict.  And the administration

11     sent a dispatch stating that -- what can be done in relation to

12     prosecution, and that all should help in the prevention of crime,

13     especially the police.

14             Minister, does that mean that the police is committed to the fact

15     that there should be no concealing of crimes?

16        A.   Dobro Planojevic explained his order at this meeting,

17     Mr. President.  Dobro Planojevic was a policeman from age 15, like Njegus

18     and like most of these people.  I am certain that these are honourable

19     and honest policemen who carried out their work professionally, since I

20     know most of them from our previous police work.  For about 15 years, I

21     worked with them, from policemen on the beat up to situations when we had

22     to solve the most complicated cases.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we have page 18 in Serbian and 19 in English.  Serbian, 18;

25     English, 19.

Page 5163

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on, Mr. Mandic:  When we read

 2     Planojevic's first sentence, he said:

 3             "The most serious form of endangering property and looting is

 4     most often done during so-called mop-up operations."

 5             Do you see that, Mr. Mandic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What did that "mop-up operation" mean, could you

 8     tell us, by paramilitaries?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paramilitary and military

10     formations, Your Honour, in combat operations aimed at taking new

11     territories or, rather, a territory that was under the control of the

12     other warring party.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Minister, does this have to do with mopping up the population or

16     mopping up the remnants of paramilitary groups?

17        A.   I'm not an expert, but my explanation is that "mopping up" meant

18     taking territory that was under the control of the other warring party.

19     Once territory is taken, paramilitary formations are looting property

20     from that area.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted to see, however, what is meant by the

22     military term "mop-up."  What is being mopped up, the population or

23     remaining groups, armed groups?  Or, more precisely, is this a customary

24     term, in military terminology, anywhere in the world?

25        A.   I've given my interpretation.  I'm not an expert.  I'm a witness.

Page 5164

 1     I can just say what I know about for sure.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let us see what Simo Tusevljak says towards the end

 3     of the first paragraph.  He says:

 4             "Criminal reports are filed against all; for instance, in

 5     Vlasenica -- just in Vlasenica," rather, "out of 73 criminal reports,

 6     23 were filed against Serbs."

 7             In English, it's the next page.  In English, it's the next page.

 8             "For the time being, the primary task is the documenting of war

 9     crimes and the filing of criminal reports.  War crimes are documented

10     even if they are committed by Serbs."

11             And further down, it says:

12             "It must be pointed out that in the Criminal Code there is no

13     mention of the authority of the criminal [as interpreted] police that is

14     detaining people."

15             Also, there are certain dead-lines involved.  Let's not read all

16     of this now.  Let us just look at page 24 in English and 23 in Serbian.

17             We see here that there are certain dead-lines.  Number 7, can you

18     look at the first paragraph, number 7?  It's 23 in Serbian.

19        A.   Yes, I found it.

20        Q.   The first paragraph of number 7.

21        A.   Number 7:

22             "The prevention and detection of other criminal offences and

23     their perpetrators.  Looting, war profiteering, serious criminal offences

24     against life and limb, and other crimes, regardless of who the

25     perpetrators are, are priorities."

Page 5165

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 6, does it not say that prevention and

 2     documenting of war crimes, and so on and so forth, that that is a

 3     constant task, like this one referred to in paragraph 7?  Is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And in paragraph 2, Dobro Planojevic's position is repeated:

 6             "If objective circumstances render the taking of measures

 7     impossible due to the possibility of wider and bigger conflicts with the

 8     perpetrators," et cetera, "then evidence and documentation are to be

 9     compiled, and the MUP is to be informed on a regular basis."

10             So it's an ongoing task, a permanent task, as it were?

11        A.   Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to recommend all the

13     other conclusions to all the participants.

14             English page 28 and Serbian page 28 as well, towards the bottom,

15     in relation to personnel affairs:

16             "Legal and other measures should be taken to remove personnel

17     from our ranks who had committed crimes or who had disqualified

18     themselves in other ways as members of the MUP."

19             It's page 29, further on.  I don't want to tire you any further

20     on this, but the participants in these proceedings can have a look at

21     this document in its entirety, and I warmly recommend it to all of you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do we agree, Minister, that the police was constantly working on

24     improving their own efforts and reinforcing the rule of law?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5166

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can this document be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D447, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I now have P1096.  That's a

 6     document that was admitted.  It's a short part of a document that

 7     concerns information about work up until a given point in time.  So you

 8     have the number, P1096.  You can see here that copies were submitted both

 9     to me and the prime minister, and the more extensive document was left

10     with the police.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The distinguished Mr. Tieger showed you, on English page 3, a

13     particular paragraph.  Actually, it's page 3 in both versions.

14             Could I have both, please.

15             It's this part here, where it says:  "The army ..."  No, I'm

16     afraid, no, in Serbian it's the next one.  It's the right page in

17     English, though.

18             Mr. Tieger showed this to you:

19             "The army, crisis staffs, and war presidencies have requested

20     that the army round up or capture as many Muslim civilians as possible,

21     and they leave such undefined camps," et cetera, et cetera.

22             Now, we are going to see what this document says about that, if

23     we look at it as a whole.

24             Taken out of context, it is represented as some kind of a plan.

25     If this were to be part of a state plan, would the police have opposed

Page 5167

 1     it?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   So this is not part of a state plan; right?

 4        A.   These are problems that the police is highlighting in their

 5     reports, as well as ways and means of overcoming them.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can we now have page 8 in Serbian and page 5 in English.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This may be the right time to recall that order issued by the

10     commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to the effect that the civilian

11     population should not be brought to barracks, but they should be taken

12     care of elsewhere.  And does this not show that when the civilian

13     population was being brought in, they were actually being brought in in

14     order to find shelter from combat operations?

15        A.   On the basis of this document, yes, that is so.  That is in the

16     Dobrinja settlement, where there were very frequent combat operations in

17     1992.  And being an inhabited area, it had quite a few inhabitants.

18        Q.   Thank you.  It states here:

19             "The tasks that we should insist on is prevention of crime,

20     irrespective of who the perpetrators may be."

21             And also on page 9 in Serbian and page 6 in English, it is

22     stated:

23             "Prevention and documenting of war crimes, with all available

24     means under the law, to document such activities, and the submission of

25     copies to the police," et cetera.

Page 5168

 1             This document has been admitted.  I just wanted us to see that

 2     this shorter part was sent to the Presidency, but, of course, it would be

 3     interpreted much more adequately if it was perceived in its entirety.

 4             Do you agree that what was submitted before is insufficient in

 5     relation to the entirety of the text?

 6        A.   What does it mean, the word "[B/C/S spoken]," "insufficient"?

 7        Q.   It means it is inadequate; it does not portray the matter at hand

 8     in its totality.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 18286.

11     18286, 65 ter.  I'm afraid it's not -- well, it is that, but we do not

12     see the title page.

13             This is a document of the OTP, but there is something wrong with

14     the pages.  Could we see the first page.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Minister, you can see the English variant, and I will read it

17     for you.  The secretary of the government, Nedjeljko Lakic, is sending to

18     the Ministry of Justice, and he says:

19             "Attached, please find the operational programme of measures to

20     prevent social disruptions in conditions of a state of war, and we ask

21     you to submit to us specific remarks in the form of amendments,"

22     et cetera.

23             This is not the right document, although we will be needing this

24     one as well.  It is 65 ter 18286.  The English variant is okay, but not

25     the Serbian.

Page 5169

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As we are pressed for time, can we

 3     see English page 12, please.  It is item 23.  This is not the document in

 4     Serbian.  This is a communication from the government to the Ministry of

 5     Justice.  And the English variant, the English version, is all right.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you remember having received this proposal of measures from

 8     the government, and you probably considered it and responded to it?  Here

 9     in item 23, it reads:

10             "Operative programme of activities to secure the prerequisites

11     for the efficient functioning of the Internal Affairs Service."

12             And 24 is the Ministry of Justice.  Actually, it is page 13 in

13     English.

14             Do you see this, Mr. Minister?  Do you recall this document?

15        A.   I do recall the document, but I do not see it here.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] English page 13, and Serbian

17     page 8.  5991 is the ERN number.  The last digits:  5991.  No, this is a

18     totally different document.  This is not the document.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This, in Serbian, in B/C/S, is

20     actually about the staffing scheme.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the minister then be shown --

22     yes, now this is the document.  This is all right in Serbian, but now we

23     do not have the English version, and the document which we had before was

24     the right one.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5170

 1        Q.   The Ministry of Justice is proposing here.  You, too, made a few

 2     proposals; the Law on Regular Courts, the Law on the Public Prosecutors'

 3     Office, on the territorial organisation, the decision on the number of

 4     judges.

 5             Do you see all that on this page?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see the next page in

 8     Serbian and page number 14 in English, so both next pages, as it were.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is item 24 continued.  Then we have item 25:  "Instructions

11     to Judicial Organs."  Right.  That they should decide cases by summary

12     procedure?

13        A.   Yes.  And that was to be done by the Ministry of Justice.

14        Q.   This is what you sent amendments to, and you accepted it and then

15     returned it to the government; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Item 26 is about an agreement on the exchange of

18     prisoners of war with the other side, which is a governmental obligation,

19     not an obligation of the ministry.  And 27, please read item 27 for us to

20     see what it is about.

21             And can we have the next page in English also.

22        A.   27:

23             "Nedjo Lakic is in charge of implementing this, and it is the

24     appointment of a state commission for the identification of crimes and

25     genocide against the civilian population and of victims of war."

Page 5171

 1        Q.   Does it refer to crimes against the Serbs only, or is it a

 2     general provision?

 3        A.   It is a general provision.

 4        Q.   Does this differ from the Documentation Centre for the

 5     Documenting of Crimes in the Federation?  Does this refer to the

 6     territory of Republika Srpska?

 7        A.   This refers to the territory of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  This is about creating conditions for the

 9     identification, establishment of crimes and genocide against the civilian

10     population, which does not automatically mean that there were such crimes

11     or such genocide, but it means that prerequisites were being put in place

12     to establish any such situations?

13        A.   It was the appointment of a state commission to establish whether

14     there were any such instances.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 20 in Serbian and

16     page -- the next page in English.  Page 20 in Serbian and 31 in English.

17     It is the last page in both cases.  The last pages in both versions.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is an order to establish a state commission to investigate

20     extreme cases of theft of state and private property and other abuses.

21     It is a departmental -- inter-departmental commission made up of

22     representatives of the Ministry of the Interior, Ministry of Justice, and

23     the responsible department; and the agency responsible is the Secretariat

24     for the Legislation of the Government; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5172

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Would you say that this was part of the government's

 2     efforts on the 17th of July for promoting the legal system; namely, the

 3     security and the rule of law?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can this be admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D448, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we have 1D1900.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Minister, do you agree that the self-criticism of the state

13     organs was sometimes so extreme as to be on the verge of masochism or

14     mutual recriminations?  Was this kind of responsibility or this kind of

15     impotence because of the existing infrastructure, a feeling of impotence,

16     was it something that led to these extreme cases of self-criticism?

17        A.   I know that at government sessions there was criticism,

18     self-criticism, co-ordination of opinions, and everything else which

19     normally attends to the work of any state institution.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is a letter by the

21     minister of the interior --

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have the translation for this.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mandic, you have the B/C/S version before you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 5173

 1        Q.   Do you agree that this is a letter by the minister of the

 2     interior to the president -- to the prime minister, and can you tell us

 3     what the first paragraph is about?

 4        A.   Stanisic is writing to the prime minister, Branko Djeric:

 5             "Mr. Prime Minister, although as a member of the government, I

 6     don't know how many times I've requested at sessions for a proposal of a

 7     law or a similar enactment to be endorsed which would, in keeping with

 8     International Law and International Law of War, channel the war

 9     activities of the army, of groups and individuals, in order for those not

10     to be at variance with the sanctioned provisions of International Law,

11     and the consequences of which could resemble genocide or war crimes,

12     unfortunately, you have not done so to this very day, although I do

13     believe that this topic should have been on the agenda of the first next

14     governmental session."

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you look further down.  The whole page is, of

16     course, interesting, but we do not have the time.

17        A.   "Precisely for the reason to disprove the existence of sanctioned

18     intentions and actions, at your proposal or initiative, a platform or

19     another document would have to be established from which it would stem a

20     clear and civilised option in order to put into practice what I believe

21     are certainly correct political objectives of the Serbian people,

22     whereas, at the same time, with the text of the platform or another

23     document, we should disassociate ourselves from all groups or individuals

24     who would have different intentions, whereby we would confirm that, as a

25     people, we should not be characterised with the epithet of a genocidal or

Page 5174

 1     criminal nation."

 2        Q.   And then he goes on to say:

 3             "I have to tell the prime minister that you did not work very

 4     much towards the establishment of military courts," and so on and so

 5     forth, "which has not been done to this very day, and that is why we have

 6     so many perpetrators of criminal offences of different ilk, and these are

 7     people who are not covered by the army and are also beyond the

 8     responsibility of the civilian institutions."

 9             Can you do this:  "We are working on collecting ..."

10        A.   I only have the first page.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page, the

12     following page in Serbian.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   The underlined parts.

15        A.   "We are working on collecting and documenting the criminal -- the

16     crimes of -- the criminal offence of war crimes, i.e., genocide,

17     irrespective of who the perpetrators are and what their ethnicity is."

18        Q.   And the last paragraph.

19        A.   "By letter, I shall inform you personally, the Presidency of the

20     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as the federal -- SUP

21     of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, attached to which is working a

22     commission where we also have one of our members, of precisely the

23     foregoing issues."

24             Signed by Mico Stanisic, the 18th of July, 1992.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is this already a well-advanced stage of the conflict

Page 5175

 1     between Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Djeric?

 2        A.   This is not a personal conflict.  This is a struggle of opinions

 3     and a confrontation of position.

 4        Q.   Now, the fact that your professors are actually translating this

 5     to the personal plane, is that -- that is another thing.  Are you saying

 6     that I actually favour the professors in the government?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D449, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise for today, Mr. Karadzic.

12             Tomorrow, we are sitting -- we are beginning at -- Mr. Mandic, do

13     you have something to say?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask you, Your Honour:  How

15     many more hours will I be here?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You'll be done on Friday.

17             I hope that the Trial Chamber will --

18             JUDGE KWON:  By the end of today, Mr. Karadzic has had 16 hours

19     and 15 minutes, which means he will have at least 3 hours and 45 minutes

20     in order to conclude his cross-examination in 20 hours, which was

21     originally allowed by the Trial Chamber.  He's requesting some further

22     time, and then the Chamber will consider.

23             So tomorrow we'll be sitting in a slightly extended form, but in

24     total -- in average, the time for evidence is usually around four hours

25     and something, a bit less than that, so it seems inevitable you may need

Page 5176

 1     to stay on Friday.  I can't say for sure how long we will need on Friday.

 2     We'll decide by the end of tomorrow's session.

 3             There's one thing:  Tomorrow, we originally planned to sit from

 4     9.00 to 3.00, but given that at least two members of the Bench are

 5     sitting in other cases, so although there may be not any sitting trial,

 6     it's better to conclude as early as possible.  And the Chamber inquired

 7     of the Registry people whether it would be feasible to sit from 9.00 to

 8     2.30, having only two half-an-hour breaks, and we received the positive

 9     answers.  So unless the parties object to that kind of scheduling, we'll

10     sit in that way:  9.00 to 2.30, two 30 minutes' break.

11             Thank you.  Have a nice evening.  I'll see you at 9.00 tomorrow

12     morning.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day

16                           of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.