Page 5078
1 Wednesday, 14 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon to everybody.
7 Before we continue to hear the cross-examination of Mr. Mandic,
8 there's a ruling the Chamber wishes to issue orally.
9 The Chamber refers to the accused's sixth motion for filing of
10 disclosure violation and for remedy or measures filed publicly on
11 9th July 2010
12 publicly on 12th July 2010
13 The Chamber is mindful that one of the remedies sought for the
14 alleged violation of the Prosecution's disclosure obligation under
15 Rule 66(A)(ii) is an extension of the time allocated to the accused for
16 cross-examination of the current witness, Mr. Mandic.
17 The Chamber finds that the Prosecution did breach its
18 Rule 66(A)(ii) disclosure obligation by not providing the two documents
19 that are discussed in the motion to the accused at an earlier date.
20 However, having considered the length, which is a total of five pages,
21 and the subject-matter of those two documents, the Trial Chamber is not
22 satisfied that their disclosure by the Prosecution on 7th July 2010
23 warrants additional time for the cross-examination of Mr. Mandic by the
24 accused.
25 The Trial Chamber will issue a consolidated written decision
Page 5079
1 which will address the remaining issues and submissions -- which will
2 address the remaining -- the remaining issues and submissions raised in
3 the accused's third, fourth, fifth, and sixth motions relating to the
4 alleged disclosure violations by the Prosecution in due course.
5 Well, Mr. Karadzic, let's continue your cross-examination.
6 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
7 [The witness answered through interpreter]
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Good afternoon, Excellencies. Good afternoon, Mr. Minister.
10 Good afternoon to all.
11 If I may, just one sentence, please, in relation to the previous
12 question. I believe that this is an invaluable witness, in terms of what
13 he knows, because, in part, he was a participant and, in part, he was a
14 witness. So it would be a pity if he were to leave without us clarifying
15 with him all the things that he can shed more light on, especially in
16 relation to Sarajevo
17 1D295, could I have that document now, please. In e-court.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic : [Continued]
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Minister, yesterday we saw that Dobro Planojevic, assistant
21 minister, without any instructions from me, issued instructions of his
22 own, concerning the treatment of prisoners of war and civilians.
23 Let me ask you, Minister, do you remember my anecdotes about
24 general chaos? Remember when I used to say, We have to distinguish
25 between what is ordered by General Mladic and what is ordered by general
Page 5080
1 chaos? Remember that? Do you remember those anecdotes of mine, that we
2 have to make a distinction in terms of who is ordering what?
3 A. I remember that you asked for your functions to be separated from
4 those of General Mladic.
5 Q. Do you remember that I often said that this is a kind of war in
6 which you don't need to give orders saying, Fire, but, rather, Stop?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Something seems to be wrong with
9 the document in e-court. Can we have this on the ELMO now, please.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Minister, you confirmed that these instructions of mine were
12 important for the local level, but what about the central organs? We see
13 Planojevic's text. Did they operate regardless of whether I was
14 recommending that or not? Did they operate on the basis of the law, on
15 the basis of the law and international regulations, regardless of whether
16 that had been recommended or not?
17 A. To the best of my knowledge and as far as I participated in
18 government, all institutions worked on the basis of the law that gave
19 them a certain scope of rights and responsibilities in their respective
20 fields. Mr. Planojevic, as assistant minister for the police, by virtue
21 of his very office, was in charge of issuing instructions from that
22 particular field, as we saw last time, and to issue orders as to how the
23 police should behave in regions and municipalities.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. It's in e-court now, it
25 seems. Could we also have the translation? I believe that there is a
Page 5081
1 translation of this order that you can see here now, so we'll have it in
2 e-court as well.
3 JUDGE KWON: 1D295.
4 THE ACCUSED: You can -- you can get me back.
5 [Interpretation] Yes, this is the Serbian version on the screen.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Without reading all of it, can you tell us what this document is
8 and when it was issued?
9 A. Since there was a shortage of regulations on imminent threat of
10 war, two months into the armed conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina
11 issued an order on the observance of International Law of War in the Serb
12 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 Q. What is it that they're supposed to observe; international
14 treaties and what else, 2 and 3?
15 A. The Rules of International Law of War referred to in paragraph 1
16 of the present item include: International treaties signed, ratified, or
17 acceded to by the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
18 customary International Law of War, and generally-accepted principles of
19 International Law of War.
20 Q. We see here that officers are duty-bound to take action and
21 impose sanctions, if necessary. Could you read 3?
22 A. We discussed this earlier on as well. I tried to explain it when
23 Mr. Tieger was examining me. I said that you ordered the minister of
24 defence, through this order, to issue instructions on the treatment of
25 captured persons. And he specified exactly who was to play which role
Page 5082
1 and how captured persons are to be treated. That includes civilians and
2 prisoners of war who were from the military.
3 Q. Thank you. So you see --
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
5 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. I asked about this before, and I'd reiterate
6 my request that Dr. Karadzic advise whether a document he's putting on
7 screen is -- was not within the notification of the 1200-plus documents
8 he notified us about. Otherwise, we spend time going through the list
9 unnecessarily. So we would appreciate if we could just be advised
10 accordingly. I'm not --
11 JUDGE KWON: So you were not informed of this document?
12 MR. TIEGER: Right. And, again, I'm not suggesting that he
13 should be precluded from using the document, but we should be notified.
14 There may be occasions when the late notice does become relevant.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was just waiting for the
17 interpretation.
18 I am sorry, I do apologise, but I believe that that had been the
19 case. This is a very well-known order. It was very important. But we
20 are going to review the matter. We simply do not have enough staff.
21 That is our problem.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So what's the order about? Organising training in the military
24 with regard to these rules, and that finally it enters into force when
25 published in the Official Gazette?
Page 5083
1 A. Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Can this document be admitted into evidence?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D434.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Now we're going to see what the minister did in relation to this
8 order. 65 ter 09437, please. It is identical to 1D196.
9 It seems that it's going to be easier to read out the English
10 version. Is this the Official Gazette of the 13th of June, 1992
11 May I ask for 1D196 in Serbian. It may be more legible. 1D196,
12 could we have that in Serbian? Yes, that's it.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Minister, can you tell us, briefly, what is allowed and what is
15 disallowed?
16 A. On the basis of your order, Minister Subotic issued instructions
17 on the treatment of captured persons. Inter alia, he established exactly
18 who is in charge of detaining captured persons, releasing them, what was
19 to be done with these persons, what the powers of the police were, what
20 the powers of the police -- what were the powers of the ministry. He
21 also refers to international regulations and the conditions under which
22 these captured persons can be used for carrying out specific work.
23 Of course, I'm familiar with these instructions. I practically
24 know them by heart.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the rest of the
Page 5084
1 document in Serbian and in English, please. We can have page 2 in
2 Serbian, and in English the participants can see the rest on this page
3 and read out all the items.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. There is also a reference here to the position of the
6 International Red Cross; right?
7 A. Which item?
8 Q. I think it's 17.
9 A. "The representatives of the International Red Cross and other
10 humanitarian organisations shall be enabled to visit and assist captured
11 persons as far as possible."
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise once again to the
13 interpreters. I start too early.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. These are all the rights of detained persons or captured persons.
16 Do you remember a document - if we haven't offered it, we will - where we
17 publicly inform the parents of persons who are captured and kept on our
18 sides, that they should not worry, that they will be tried on the basis
19 of our laws, if they are fit for trial, rather than exchanges?
20 A. As far as I can remember, that was a proclamation of the
21 Presidency about these captured persons. I think it was given to
22 SRNA
23 Q. Yes. Their parents had fled to the federation, and we had no
24 other contacts with them; right?
25 A. That was one of the ways in which information could be provided.
Page 5085
1 Q. Is this actually a form that was prescribed by Minister Subotic?
2 It was a card that was to be filled out, that this was compulsory
3 documentation accompanying each and every prisoner; right?
4 A. This is accompanying documentation, and this is a form that was
5 published in the Official Gazette, along with these instructions.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Can this be admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 09437 has already been admitted as
10 Exhibit P1134.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D294, please. Could we just have
13 that briefly. It is a sequel to this form that is to be filled out.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Minister, while we're waiting for that, let me ask you whether
16 some of those judges who had been appointed left eventually for different
17 reasons; tensions, general anxiety, and so on?
18 A. Of course, there were cases when persons both of Serb and
19 non-Serb ethnicity left. They either took different offices or they left
20 the war-ravaged Bosnia-Herzegovina. Of course, there was a great deal of
21 fluctuation of personnel. People were coming and going.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we disregard that previous number, because it's part of a
24 document that was already adopted.
25 65 ter 176, please, can we have that.
Page 5086
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Did that only depend on them, Minister?
3 A. Only on them, their own will.
4 Q. Thank you. Could you please cast a glance at this document.
5 Could you briefly tell us what this is and when this happened?
6 A. These are minutes from the 28th session, from the
7 15th of June, 1992, and it was chaired by the deputy prime minister,
8 Milan
9 Q. It's a government session; right?
10 A. Yes. I apologise, yes. It is one of the government sessions.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 4 in Serbian, and
12 perhaps it's the last page in English. Sorry, the fourth one in the
13 document, but it's actually page 5 in Serbian.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do we agree, Minister, that at this point in time the government
16 is waging a battle for the functioning of government, as such? Can you
17 look at paragraph 2?
18 A. The session indicated how exceptionally important it is for
19 authority to function in all parts of the republic, as well as life
20 itself; inter alia, republican commissioners are supposed to help that
21 process, and they are representatives of all organs.
22 Q. Next paragraph.
23 A. Bearing all of that in mind, the government points out the need
24 to have a joint meeting of republican state bodies with the purpose of
25 discussing open or outstanding issues, the synchronisation of activities
Page 5087
1 and measures, and ensuring that work and tasks are conducted in a
2 co-ordinated and efficient manner and within the Constitution and law.
3 Q. Could you read out the last paragraph, please, the one after
4 that?
5 A. What was pointed out was the necessity to find possibilities for
6 distributing the post and other material in municipalities.
7 Q. Could you finish?
8 A. "To that end, the possibility of providing a helicopter or
9 ultimately a messenger service as a last resort should be considered."
10 Q. Thank you, Minister. Does that mean that electronic links could
11 not really meet the needs of the government for a two-way communication
12 with the local level? So what does this mean at the end of the
13 Twentieth Century; courier, Pony Express, what?
14 A. Mr. President, that means that the seat of government and
15 republican organs were terribly isolated. The road network barely
16 functioned, and with a large -- and we did not have any communication
17 with a large part of Bosnia-Herzegovina that was under Serb control.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Could this be admitted, if it hasn't been admitted already, that
20 is?
21 JUDGE KWON: I think that has already been admitted as
22 Exhibit P1095.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 177. These are
24 all minutes from the sessions of different bodies, and there is an
25 agreement, in principle, that they are relevant.
Page 5088
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a government session. It
2 was -- it is the 29th session, held on the 16th of July [as interpreted],
3 1992, which was chaired by Professor Branko Djeric.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see Serbian
5 page number 4, bearing the number "379," and the corresponding English
6 page, "Re-8" and "9."
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Please either tell us what the first two sentences of Article 9
9 are or read them out for us.
10 A. "The government was informed about the content of the letters
11 sent by the SAO Birac."
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The English version has to be --
13 well, yes, I see it now.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "It was assessed that a political
15 and security situation in this region was not satisfactory and that all
16 measures needed to be undertaken to step up security to a higher level."
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Minister, please tell the participants, what
19 is Birac? Does it contain Sekovici, Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Milici,
20 Bratunac, and Zvornik, all these municipalities? Is this this group of
21 six municipalities in Eastern Bosnia, the majority of which was accepted
22 to be part of the Muslim territorial unit at various conferences held on
23 the subject-matter?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you remember that we sent them a proclamation that they should
Page 5089
1 not fight because perhaps their regions would fall to their territorial
2 unit anyway, and it was -- it didn't make any sense for them to fight for
3 it?
4 A. I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 If we have not offered this already, we shall do so on another
7 occasion.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Is it fair to say that despite all this, they severed our
10 communication, namely, the road Vlasenica to Zvornik, via Konjevic Polje,
11 so that we had to go there via Ceparde?
12 A. Yes, and in several instances at Ceparde, too, was cut off.
13 Q. That was my next question. Do you remember that they laid
14 ambushes in -- at Ceparde and at Crni Vrh and that they killed people in
15 civilian vehicles; in fact, a bus was riddled with bullets and many
16 people were killed?
17 A. I know for a fact that at Crni Vrh some people from Rogatica got
18 killed. Some drivers from the Birac mine were also killed. And mainly
19 civilians who were on their way towards the River Drina and on towards
20 Bijeljina or to the right, towards Zvornik, also came to harm.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that we took military actions in that
22 zone only in -- late in autumn 1992 and in the spring of 1993, when they
23 started attacking the army, also when they started shooting in the backs
24 of troops, and they actually sought shelter in these villages?
25 A. I don't know that.
Page 5090
1 Q. Thank you. Please take a look at AD-11, the second paragraph.
2 It is the next page in the English version.
3 JUDGE KWON: Before we move on, just for clarification: You read
4 out the item number 9, which refers to SAO Birac, and you were asked
5 about some questions relating to -- some six municipalities in
6 Eastern Bosnia
7 refers to those Eastern Bosnia regions? Because I'm not clear.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Birac is a region, Your Honours,
9 which is in Eastern Bosnia, and it encompasses these six municipalities,
10 Zvornik, Vlasenica, Milici, and the other two or three that were
11 enumerated.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Please be so kind as to inform us about this second paragraph of
15 item 11.
16 A. It was noted that the government should be more active in
17 exercising its constitutional and legal rights and obligations. It was
18 also said that there were certain difficulties posed to the work of the
19 government by the inadequate and insufficient co-operation with the
20 Presidency of the Republic and the Main Staff of the army, and some
21 difficulties and problems in establishing contacts with the regions and
22 the municipalities.
23 Q. Thank you. Just another piece of proof that there was no good
24 communication.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.
Page 5091
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And do you agree with this?
3 A. I would be only repeating myself if I said that the government as
4 well as the other organs were totally isolated at Pale and on
5 Mount Jahorina
6 inadequate.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page, 381,
8 please. I believe that in the English version, it is also the last page.
9 Well, then it is the penultimate page in English.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. This is mid-July -- mid-June. Do you agree that these
12 difficulties with communications lasted for as long as you were a member
13 of the government, at least? Did anything improve?
14 A. This is mid-July, and we had to grapple with these problems
15 throughout the year 1992.
16 Q. Thank you. We shall be revisiting this -- the crisis in the
17 Birac region in another document, but now let us see what the last three
18 paragraphs are, what it was that the government dealt with at this
19 session.
20 A. It was concluded that a helicopter should be requested from the
21 Main Staff of the Army of the Serbian Republic
22 government to establish contacts with the municipalities. The government
23 was informed of the letter of the minister of health, in which all state
24 and international institutions are requested to lift the blockade in
25 order for the necessary medicaments for the Bosnian Krajina to be
Page 5092
1 secured.
2 Q. Does this refer also to the prohibition of delivering oxygen
3 because of which 12 prematurely-born babies -- because of the lack of
4 which, 12 prematurely-born babies died, because they didn't have the
5 necessary oxygen?
6 A. Eleven babies died, and the twelfth baby remained handicapped for
7 life because she didn't receive the assistance she required, actually,
8 the treatment -- the oxygen she needed. Now she's 18 years old. She
9 just turned 18, Mr. President, a couple of months ago, but she's
10 physically disabled and mentally disabled.
11 Q. I am afraid that she, too, has died. Her name is Sladjana, if I
12 remember correctly.
13 A. No, that is not correct. No, there was a programme about her on
14 the occasion of the 18th anniversary of that event, and that baby is
15 still alive.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that that drama was the reason for
17 the establishing of a corridor in Posavina and the liberation of that
18 part so as to be able to supply Bosnian Krajina, i.e., the
19 Banja Luka Krajina, with the necessary supplies?
20 A. As far as I know, there were multiple reasons for that, but
21 through arms struggle, a corridor was breached through Posavina, and then
22 the eastern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina could be reached as well as the
23 parts across the Sava River
24 were.
25 Q. Thank you. And this last one, please.
Page 5093
1 A. The government concluded that all measures should be taken,
2 including military measures, to lift the blockade on the Bosnian Krajina
3 and ensure regular supplies of food and other merchandise -- other goods.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for explaining this.
5 Can this be admitted, if it has not been admitted?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D435, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Can we now see 1D199, please.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, for future purposes, the Judges are
11 not well-aware of the geography in the region, so if you talk about the
12 corridors of some regions, it may be a good idea to show the maps from
13 time to time.
14 Let's move on.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your suggestion. I
16 hope that with this witness we shall identify both the positions around
17 Sarajevo
18 regions, Birac and the others ones that we have been mentioning.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Minister, is this the 20th of June, the political/security
21 situation information of the 2nd Krajina Corps; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page in
24 Serbian, and in English that is all that has been translated.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5094
1 Q. Can you just tell us what this is about, in a nutshell, in the
2 two highlighted framed parts?
3 A. "Of late, we are encountering the ever-more marked practices of
4 robbery and war profiteering among individuals and groups. Our unit
5 commands, security organs, military police, and organs of social
6 structures have been ordered to discover and prevent such criminal
7 actions. To that effect, a number of groups and individuals have been
8 arrested, and legal action has been taken against them, but we should
9 like to stress that this will be very difficult to eradicate without your
10 help and specific evidence."
11 Q. It was "eradicate;" right?
12 A. Yes, "eradicate." "It is hard to eradicate without," et cetera.
13 Q. Please go on.
14 A. "We would like to draw the attention of also unit commands and
15 officers that pending the adoption of the Law on the Army of the Serbian
16 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and subsidiary legislation, they should
17 fully abide by the Law on Total People's Defence of the Socialist Federal
18 Republic of Yugoslavia
19 correctional measures, and rules which regulate the types of educational
20 and correctional measures, and the jurisdiction for their pronouncement."
21 Q. Thank you. Does this mean that at that time we still did not
22 have a law on the army and that both the army and the civilian
23 leadership, under such circumstances, actually followed -- abided by the
24 previous laws of the previous federal state?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5095
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be adopted, admitted?
3 And if the OTP has the entire translation, we would not object to it's
4 being admitted.
5 Can we see the entire Serbian version so that we can see that it
6 is written on it "Confidential"?
7 JUDGE KWON: Can we see the first page in B/C/S.
8 Mr. Mandic, what is this document about? Is it an order or a
9 report?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a report on the political
11 and security situation in the Krajina region, which was under the command
12 of the 1st Krajina Corps.
13 JUDGE KWON: Addressed to who?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Addressed to the Presidency, i.e.,
15 to the republican institutions.
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm asking because it's difficult to understand how
17 a assistant commander for something in the corps can address the
18 Presidency directly.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He couldn't do so without approval
20 from his commander. If he had been so empowered or so authorised by him,
21 he could do so. You are right, Your Honours. Without the approval,
22 without the consent of the corps commander, he could not directly address
23 the republican institutions of authority.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do you see a passage in this document that it was
25 addressed to the Presidency, Mr. Mandic?
Page 5096
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't, but letters of this
2 kind were mainly addressed to the Presidency, as the supreme command.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The documents of this kind go upwards to the top, towards the
6 organs, and also downwards, towards the lower-ranking commands?
7 A. Reports, memos of this kind, would be submitted to the competent
8 higher-ranking commands, and the instructions and orders for the
9 execution of instructions contained in them would be submitted to the
10 lower-ranking commands.
11 Q. Am I right when I say that this was intended to the commands, to
12 the assistant commander for moral guidance, I believe, which was
13 according to his line of work? We happened to stumble upon this example
14 in the archives. So this was sent to the assistant commander for moral
15 guidance and the officers in charge of the same subject-matter at lower
16 levels?
17 A. This particular copy was for the archives, for the file and the
18 assistant for moral guidance, but obviously it was addressed -- the
19 document was addressed to superior commands to inform them about a
20 political security situation in the region of Krajina.
21 Q. It does -- nevertheless, seems to me -- what does this mean,
22 "PKZ," et cetera?
23 A. Assistant commander for moral guidance and education.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Given that we have only partial translation, we'll
Page 5097
1 mark it for identification, pending full translation of the document.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 May we have 65 ter 121. I don't know whether it's been admitted.
5 This is a session of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic
6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's 65 ter 121.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. At this session, the reconstruction or reshuffle of the
9 government is mentioned for the first time, under B. So let's look at
10 item B.
11 A. AD-3, item B:
12 "It was concluded that the prime minister proposed the
13 reshuffling of the government as well as appropriate regulations related
14 to the reshuffle."
15 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the prime minister here was given
16 what belongs to him, the freedom for a cabinet reshuffle?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember that as early as late May or early June there
19 were misunderstandings between the prime minister and the premier and
20 that it was recommended to him that instead of replacing people he should
21 conduct a reshuffle?
22 A. Yes, that was in the summer of 1992.
23 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. So the Presidency told him that
24 he could go ahead and have a government reshuffle; was that the way it
25 was?
Page 5098
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into
4 evidence?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D437, Your Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now have 65 ter 124. 124,
8 that's the 14th Presidency Session of the Presidency of the Serbian
9 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. May I ask you to present to us items 1 and 2 so that we can see
12 the way in which attempts were made in July to establish the state
13 organs?
14 A. "The Presidency adopted the following decisions and conclusions:
15 "1. The decision that the seat of the Supreme Military Court
16 Prosecutors' Office should be in Han Pijesak."
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We need a translation also. This
18 is 65 ter. I believe there must be an English version.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we do.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Government of the
21 Serbian Republic
22 of the decision in connection with the appointment of judges and
23 prosecutors. It was agreed that the authorities on the ground should be
24 asked for their opinion of individual candidates so that the best judges
25 and prosecutors can be selected."
Page 5099
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Where are you reading from? What I see on my screen is the
3 transcript.
4 A. Item 1 on page 1 of the minutes of the Presidency session of the
5 3rd of July.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, now we have the Serbian
7 version. We're just waiting for the translation.
8 JUDGE KWON: We do have English translation on our own PCs, so if
9 you wish, you can carry on.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't. We're
11 obviously not using the same system.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. So opinions are sought on the ground about the candidates?
14 A. Yes. The seat of the Supreme Military Court and
15 Prosecutors' Office is established in Han Pijesak, and candidates are
16 sought on the ground, and opinions about the candidates also sought.
17 Q. And where was the seat of the civilian Supreme Court?
18 Now we can see what it was like for us at Pale.
19 A. I don't have anything either.
20 JUDGE KWON: They are now fixing it, so just bear with us a
21 minute. It should be with you very soon.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we have it now.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you just tell us where the seat of the civilian judiciary
25 was; that is, the Supreme Court and the main republican prosecutor.
Page 5100
1 A. To the best of my recollection, their seat was at Pale.
2 Q. In a weekend cottage, is that right, next to Hotel Panorama?
3 A. An annex of Hotel Panorama.
4 Q. Can you tell us about items 2 and 7, please?
5 A. Item 2:
6 "The Presidency issued an order to the MUP of the
7 Serbian Republic
8 paramilitary units on the territory of Gacko
9 municipalities.
10 "It was said at the session that the Presidency was receiving
11 unreliable reports that groups on that territory, which were not under
12 the command of the army or the police, were terrorising and taking
13 vengeance on the civilian population. The MUP was, therefore, given the
14 task of investigating and preventing the activities of these independent
15 groups."
16 Q. Thank you. Can we now have item 7, please?
17 A. Item 7:
18 "It was concluded that responsible organs shall urgently take the
19 harshest measures against perpetrators of criminal offences and persons
20 spreading disinformation and panic among the population."
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page, the next
23 page, that is, so that we can see the end of the document and the
24 signature; in English, too, the last page. Thank you.
25 May this document be admitted into evidence?
Page 5101
1 JUDGE KWON: Can we go back to item 7 and item 2.
2 Mr. Mandic, do you remember any results of such investigations?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. It was the
4 Ministry of the Interior, it was the police, that conducted these
5 investigations, as did the military police. I was in the
6 Ministry of Justice, so I'm not familiar with the results of their
7 investigations. Possible results of their investigation would have been
8 dealt with in the military courts because these were armed paramilitary
9 groups so they would fall under the competence of the military courts.
10 JUDGE KWON: Although they are not members of the army?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although they were not members of
12 the army, armed persons in wartime fell within the competence of the
13 military judiciary.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It will be admitted.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D438, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 May we have 1D203 and glance briefly at this order which was
18 issued on the same day. Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is this the order referred to in the previous document, in
21 item 2, Mr. Minister?
22 A. Yes, this is precisely what I explained to Their Honours. We can
23 see from this that the investigation was carried out by the police of the
24 Serb Republic
25 we discussed.
Page 5102
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll soon come to a document where
3 we inform the public they should not be upset, because the persons we
4 arrested were not patriots and they were not regular soldiers, but,
5 rather, they were criminals.
6 We might have a translation. Maybe that's why Mr. Tieger is on
7 his feet.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
10 The document currently on the screen, 05897.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this document be admitted into
13 evidence?
14 JUDGE KWON: Let me read in English briefly. Thank you.
15 It will be admitted, unless it has been already admitted. It
16 will be Exhibit D439, then?
17 THE REGISTRAR: No, it hasn't been admitted, Your Honour. That
18 will be Exhibit D439.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 May we now have 65 ter 125.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. One further question.
23 I'm asking too -- intervening too much, but, Mr. Mandic, as you
24 said, the paramilitaries fall under the purview of military court; then
25 the order to the MUP to investigate what paramilitary did is a wrong
Page 5103
1 order. Am I correct? Mr. Karadzic should have ordered the Ministry of
2 Defence to investigate such acts?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the
4 Ministry of Defence is a civilian organ of state administration, and it
5 cannot carry out investigations directly. Along with the MUP,
6 Mr. Karadzic might have issued an order to the Command of the
7 Herzegovina Corps and the military police of that corps to investigate
8 what was happening on their territory. Probably, in July, Mr. Karadzic
9 had more confidence in the police because the police were able to
10 investigate any crimes occurring on the territory of the entire republic.
11 And when the police concluded its investigation, before criminal
12 proceedings are instituted, they would hand over their results to the
13 prosecutors' office that was in charge of that, so they would have to
14 investigate the groups that came to wage war in Bosnia and Herzegovina
15 which were looting the people and doing everything mentioned in the
16 minutes of the Presidency session.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
18 Mr. Karadzic.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Minister, do you agree that the Herzegovina Corps was quite small
21 and few in numbers?
22 A. Well, it covered Eastern Herzegovina. And it's correct, it was a
23 very small corps, as far as manpower goes, and the command.
24 Q. Do you agree that the military police were often at the
25 front-line instead of engaging in police work and that this might have
Page 5104
1 been the reason why we addressed this to the military -- to the civilian
2 police?
3 A. You had at constitutional right, Mr. President, to involve the
4 police in any form of crime prevention, regardless of whether they fell
5 under the purview of the civilian or the military courts. On completing
6 their investigation, the police would hand over the case to the relevant
7 prosecutors' office, whether civilian or military. So you did not make a
8 mistake when you involved the civilian rather than the military police.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that there was some rivalry between the
10 police and the army, as there is everywhere?
11 A. According to the provisions of the Constitution, when there is an
12 imminent threat of war the civilian police was subordinated to the
13 military command, especially in areas where there was armed combat. And,
14 in a manner of speaking, it was the army that was in command of the
15 police in certain situations, as far as combat goes, and the army could
16 order the police to engage in combat. Of course, as is the case with all
17 structures, there was some rivalry, as you say, and occasionally there
18 were conflicts.
19 Q. Thank you. Would you believe either one of these structures if,
20 in their reports, they besmirched one another? Would you believe them or
21 would you think that this was a result of their rivalry and
22 misunderstandings?
23 A. Well, I can only give you my opinion. I wouldn't believe anyone.
24 Of course, I would investigate and establish who was right and who was
25 wrong, and punish whoever was to blame. But, of course, the military
Page 5105
1 command felt superior in a situation of an imminent threat of war. And
2 in certain situations the army disobeyed even you, although you were
3 their commander-in-chief.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at these minutes from the
5 15th Session, three days later, and let's see what was proposed in
6 item 4, a division of labour in the Presidency.
7 Could I now ask you to read out the first paragraph, AD-1.
8 A. "In connection with the first item of the agenda,
9 Dr. Nikola Koljevic stated why he was discontent with the work of the
10 Presidency. He stressed that he was discontent with his own performance.
11 He could not endure the work physically or psychologically. He stressed
12 that he was having family problems which affected his contribution to the
13 work of the Presidency. He observed that the efficiency of the
14 Presidency was low."
15 Q. Right. We can stop there. Do you agree that the Presidency
16 would work late into the night and that the effects, as the late
17 Professor Koljevic noted, were very small and did not satisfy us?
18 A. Mr. President, I am not familiar with the system of the work of
19 the Presidency, and I really cannot say anything about that.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you please have a look at number 4. Can you
21 tell us what the problem there was, this regional arbitrariness, as it
22 were?
23 A. AD-1.4. So, point 4:
24 "The option was suggested that he go to Krajina to crush Krajina
25 separatism. However, he believes that it would be counterproductive
Page 5106
1 because they could become too attached to him, which might cause more
2 damage."
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in
5 Serbian.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The previous paragraph says that he, as a person from Banja Luka
8 and Krajina, should go to Banja Luka and curb this behaviour of extreme
9 autonomy in Krajina; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you agree that that was actually a lack of co-ordination and
12 control, and this affinity of the Serbs to behave in such a way, and that
13 that led to what happened in the weeks that followed?
14 A. I personally think, Mr. President, that the SAOs were a mistake
15 in the organisation of the state -- or, rather, Republika Srpska,
16 because, in that way, mini-states were created in which all branches of
17 government existed; the executive, the judiciary, the legislative. And,
18 of course, right-wingers that we heard about here at this trial made
19 inappropriate decisions and had inappropriate views at that given point
20 in time, especially at the beginning of the war. It seems to me -- well,
21 it is my opinion that, in a way, this worked to our detriment and it
22 back-fired. That's my opinion.
23 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Plavsic pointed out that it would be
24 counterproductive if anyone resigned from his or her position in these
25 times because it would lead to harmful political consequences, and
Page 5107
1 Dr. Koljevic withdraw and his family put up in Belgrade, and what was it
2 that Djeric said?
3 A. "Professor Branko Djeric said that the results of the work were
4 still significant, despite Dr. Nikola Koljevic's self-criticism."
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page in
6 English, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "As he said, improvisational work
8 cannot continue. The Presidency operates without a division of tasks.
9 Closer co-operation with government departments is necessary. He
10 proposed that working bodies of the Presidency be established. He did
11 not agree with the statement that little had been done in the
12 Presidency."
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. Do you remember that after that, we carried out this division,
15 and Mrs. Plavsic was put in charge of humanitarian work and co-operation
16 with UNPROFOR in that sense, and foreign affairs were handled by Koljevic
17 and Buha, and I was in charge of military affairs and so on?
18 A. Yes, but Professor Plavsic was in charge of humanitarian
19 organisations and exercising control over the prisons and detention
20 centres at local level where non-Serbs were detained.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you read out what I said, what Radovan Karadzic
22 said? It's the next paragraph.
23 A. "Dr. Radovan Karadzic pointed out that we can not be dissatisfied
24 with our performance. It was important that we existed, even if we did
25 nothing, because the Presidency was a symbol of the statehood of the
Page 5108
1 Serbian Republic
2 Q. Thank you. The Office of the Presidency, the collective
3 Presidency at that point in time, was it not to represent the country and
4 to co-ordinate work among the legislative and the executive?
5 A. Like the Queen of England
6 Q. Having tea with guests?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Further on, it says that Professor Koljevic said that he was not
9 dissatisfied with the work of the Presidency, but with his own
10 contribution. He pointed out that he could not control the republican
11 commissioners and considered that to be his own failure. And further
12 down it says that Professor Djeric said that the government and the
13 Presidency did not have proper accommodation, and so on.
14 Do you agree with that?
15 A. Well, if you remember, Mr. President, we, as the government, were
16 staying at that hotel on the top of Mount Jahorina
17 proper facilities. Several times, we tried to move the government to the
18 municipality of Ilidza where there were telecommunication links, after
19 all, and all other links. However, that did not happen. So we really
20 worked in very difficult and complex conditions.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Can this document be admitted?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D440, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 185.
Page 5109
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Minister, do you agree that commissioners were introduced in
3 order to establish some kind of link between the central organs and the
4 municipalities, and that that was proposed by the leader of the
5 opposition party, Dr. Djokanovic?
6 A. And in some way to exercise control over the municipal organs on
7 the ground.
8 Q. Do we see that after, what, a month or so, Professor Koljevic
9 feels helpless and feels that even that did not ensure proper
10 communication between the central organs and the periphery, or, rather,
11 the municipalities?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, is this a government session on the
14 8th of July, 1992?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please have page 4 in
17 Serbian.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. We see the agenda here. We actually saw it. And I see that this
20 part was translated. Item 9 on the agenda, in Serbian, could you read
21 the fourth paragraph: "On the basis of experience ..." et cetera?
22 A. "On the basis of experience acquired in SAO Semberija and
23 Majevica, it has been concluded that the decision on the establishment of
24 war commissioners in municipalities, in a situation of imminent threat of
25 war or when at war, cause a certain confusion that needs to be clarified
Page 5110
1 as soon as possible."
2 Q. Can you read the next one.
3 A. "It has been concluded that material be prepared on this. The
4 problems, difficulties, obscurities, and the like should be pointed out,
5 and measures should be proposed. After that, the government would, if
6 necessary, submit an appropriate proposal to the Presidency of the
7 Serb Republic
8 Q. What about the next one; could you read that as well, "... at the
9 session ..."
10 A. "What was particularly pointed out at the session was that it was
11 indispensable for the government and the ministers to exercise their
12 rights and responsibilities based on law incessantly in the field.
13 Therefore, it was concluded that visits to the SAO of Bosanska Krajina
14 should be planned as soon as possible, but to other regions as well."
15 Q. And further on it says that there should be a proposal of a
16 decree how the ministries should function outside the seat of government,
17 and also that the SAOs should be abolished and that the Constitution
18 should be amended; right?
19 A. Well, since the SAO were a constitutional category, then the
20 Constitution had to be amended and these autonomous provinces had to be
21 thrown out of the Constitution. That is why the Constitution was being
22 amended.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page,
25 11, and 13. Actually, it is paragraphs 11 and 13. It's probably the
Page 5111
1 next page in English and in Serbian.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Point 1:
4 "The government has been informed about the level of organisation
5 and work of judiciary organs in certain regions prepared by your
6 ministry, the Ministry of Justice."
7 And can you read this page further on.
8 A. "It has been concluded that great problems exist because
9 judiciary military organs have not started to work yet.
10 "That is one of the greatest obstacles in establishing law and
11 order, legality, and a state based on the rule of law in present
12 conditions.
13 "Bearing this in mind, it has been concluded that a proposal be
14 made to the competent authorities to form and qualify as soon as possible
15 a public prosecutors' office and courts, as soon as possible.
16 "It has also been concluded that, due to emergency, the
17 possibility of delegating authority from military to regular judiciary
18 organs be examined and, if necessary, amendments to appropriate laws
19 should be proposed."
20 Q. Thank you. In mid-July, is the situation such that we do not
21 have a military judiciary yet and that there is a feeling of
22 powerlessness on the part of the state to regulate crimes in that area?
23 A. When there is an imminent threat of war, a vast majority, over
24 95 per cent of crimes committed, all types, all levels, fall under the
25 jurisdiction of the military judiciary.
Page 5112
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page. Just
3 one sentence, please.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. The second paragraph.
6 A. "Therefore, all regulations have to be passed. Organs,
7 organisations, and institutions have to be established which would
8 actually ensure the existence of a state."
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, unless it
11 hasn't been admitted already?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D441, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Before we take a break, just one question,
15 Mr. Mandic.
16 Can you go back to the previous page, item 11 and 13.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 11 and 13 in Serbian as
18 well, please. The next one in Serbian. Yes, right.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. There, it has been concluded, it notes, that
20 it be proposed to the authorised organs to form and qualify the
21 Public Prosecutor' Office and the courts for work as soon as possible,
22 and also that, for emergency reasons, the possibility of authority
23 delegation from military to regular judiciary organs be examined and
24 that, if necessary, amendments to the appropriate laws be proposed.
25 Do you remember what happened afterwards, pursuant to this
Page 5113
1 conclusion?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Ministry of Justice, as
3 Mr. Tieger knows, I think, as well as Ms. Korner, wrote about this twice
4 in order to have this conclusion carried out. Unfortunately, the
5 Constitution deals with the military and civilian judiciary, so the
6 Constitution had to be amended. During August and September, I think, I
7 asked for this to be carried out, because we had organised the civilian
8 judiciary and prosecutors' office better than the military did, and most
9 of the problems were in the field and fell under the jurisdiction of the
10 military judiciary.
11 So, Your Honours, the proposal I made was that within the
12 civilian judiciary, military departments be established and civilian
13 departments as well, with appropriate jurisdiction, in order to use the
14 judges and prosecutors who were already there and who could deal with
15 these crimes committed both in the military and in the civilian area.
16 The civilian organs were more professional and better organised.
17 Until the government fell, that is to say, until that session
18 that was held in Zvornik on the 23rd of November, that did not happen
19 because the military was opposed to this. They thought that the civilian
20 judiciary was taking over their powers that had been there for many, many
21 years in the former Yugoslavia
22 civilian Ministry of Justice, or, rather, the government, was to start
23 working and to start prosecuting individuals or, rather, paramilitaries,
24 all of those who were violating criminal law to a large extent.
25 You will see two of my written communications, and you can also
Page 5114
1 see the stenographic notes from the Assembly where General Gvero and I
2 were -- we simply clashed. He was the person who was in charge of that
3 segment in the Army of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 JUDGE KWON: I'd like to see those communications, but I wonder
5 in what method we can see the document. Mr. Tieger can help us later on.
6 Could you identify --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
8 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have just prepared that.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 We'll have a break for 25 minutes. We'll resume five past 4.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
14 JUDGE KWON: Before you begin, Mr. Karadzic: Have you prepared
15 the documents which you alluded to present to the witness to get brief
16 confirmation?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence has given the
18 Prosecution most of these documents, which are mainly news reports, but I
19 believe that some of the documents from the government and by the
20 minister, himself, we will be giving to the minister to look at them in
21 his spare time and to initial those which he's familiar with and which he
22 confirms. But that notwithstanding, Excellencies, I believe that it
23 would be a pity, and I'm sure the minister will be angry at me now - it
24 won't it's first time, however - that it would be good if he remain here
25 on Friday as well, because we will not have a witness of this kind for
Page 5115
1 some time to come.
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber's anticipation is that he may be able to
3 conclude his evidence by tomorrow, so you may ask that during the course
4 of today's evidence, to the witness.
5 Let's move on.
6 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. I thought the Court was going
8 to -- if there's no issue about presenting documents to the witness, then
9 I -- other than in court, then I --
10 JUDGE KWON: Admission is a separate matter.
11 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Can we see 1D204. This is a document from the year 2000. I
14 believe that we do not have a translation, but this is your document,
15 Mr. Minister, from the 10th of July.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can you identify it, first and foremost, and then tell us what
18 the second paragraph is about?
19 A. Yes. This is a letter from the Ministry of Justice, addressed to
20 the president of the Presidency. And, yes, I can identify it.
21 Q. What is the date?
22 A. The 10th of July, 1992. In fact, this is my very first letter to
23 you, where I propose how the judiciary should be organised; that I
24 already talked about in describing the situation to Their Honours before
25 the break.
Page 5116
1 Q. Am I right when I say that in the first paragraph you inform me
2 and the Presidency that you had carried out the organising and the
3 establishment of regular courts of public prosecutorial offices, as well
4 as municipal misdemeanor courts in the Serbian Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, except in Northern Bosnia, the Doboj region, where it
6 was not possible to do because of the war actions, and that you were
7 also -- that that was also in course?
8 Can you please read paragraph 2, for it to be interpreted slowly,
9 because we do not have a written translation. Am I right when I say that
10 you are sending this to the Presidency, because the Assembly is not
11 convening regularly yet?
12 A. Yes. The first and the second paragraphs or just the second?
13 Q. I have re-told the first paragraph, and if you can read the
14 second one. I meant the Assembly was not convening and that is why you
15 were sending this letter to the Presidency. And if the Assembly -- had
16 the Assembly convened, you would have sent it to the Assembly?
17 A. This is how I understood it:
18 "By monitoring the situation in the area of the commission of
19 crimes, a large number of committed crimes has been observed from the
20 jurisdiction 'ratione materie' of military judicial organs which still
21 have not been established. Therefore, we propose that regular judicial
22 organs, pending the establishment of military judicial organs, take over
23 their duties on a temporary basis. Thereby, we would considerably
24 contribute to the prevention of the commission of these crimes and
25 contribute to the establishment of a legal order and legal security
Page 5117
1 throughout the territory of the Serbian Republic
2 Herzegovina
3 Q. Thank you. In the next paragraph, the ministry states its
4 opinion that there should be amendments to the Law on the Execution of
5 Criminal and Misdemeanor Sanctions, et cetera. And read the next
6 paragraph.
7 A. "Namely, persons sentenced to a term of imprisonment of up to
8 five years would be sent to serve their sentences only after the end of
9 the war, while in the meantime they would be engaged in military units.
10 Persons sentence to a term of imprisonment of over five years would be
11 sent to serve their sentences upon the finality of the respective
12 judgement."
13 Q. Continue.
14 A. "In this connection, it would be prescribed that prescription
15 period for the execution of these sanctions would not include the time
16 while the convict is in the military unit."
17 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this, Mr. Minister: So you
18 proposed -- the ministry proposed that persons who were to serve
19 sentences up to five years would serve their sentences after the end of
20 the war. Did it ever happen that we released criminals in order for them
21 to join some units, and, to the best of your knowledge, was this also
22 done -- was this done by the other side?
23 A. To the best of my knowledge, I know for a fact that persons who
24 had been sentenced to terms of imprisonment were not released in order to
25 be engaged in the army. As for the other side, I know, at least as far
Page 5118
1 as Sarajevo
2 were the leaders of some units of Bosnia and Herzegovina's army. They
3 were convicts. Now, whether that was a widespread practice, I don't
4 know.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the second page to see
7 the signature and the stamp, please.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Is this your signature and stamp?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, Excellency?
13 This is one of those documents of a series that you inquired about in
14 connection with what the minister was proposing.
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification, pending
16 translation.
17 THE REGISTRAR: MFI
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D199, please, or
20 65 ter 11480. 65 ter 11480.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this has been admitted as
22 Exhibit P1136.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Minister, as soon as we get the English version, would you
Page 5119
1 please read the entire letter. It's not too long.
2 A. It is addressed to the Presidency of the Serbian Republic
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, to Dr. Radovan Karadzic:
4 "The Ministry of Justice has sent to the Presidency of the
5 Serbian Republic
6 10th of July, 1992, in which it is proposing that regular courts and
7 public prosecutors' offices should temporarily, pending the establishment
8 of military judicial organs, take over the jurisdiction of military
9 courts and military prosecutors' offices. The Presidency has not
10 informed this ministry about its position on this proposal. That is why
11 we are hereby again submitting this letter to you with the request that
12 you inform us about further activities and measures."
13 This was signed by my deputy.
14 Q. And it relates to the letter that we just saw a minute ago?
15 A. Yes, yes. In fact, this is a reminder, a reminder -- a follow-up
16 to that previous letter.
17 Q. Thank you. You expected the Presidency to agree -- to reach
18 agreement with the army, within the space of three weeks, that they
19 actually renounce their powers in this field for this idea to be put into
20 practice.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see P1105, which is
22 minutes from the session held on the 23rd and 24th of November in
23 connection with a reshuffle in the Cabinet.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is that right?
Page 5120
1 A. At that session, I spoke -- I spoke at an Assembly session, in
2 fact, and I proposed that the powers of the military judiciary should be
3 temporarily delegated to the civilian judiciary. And Milan Gvero, who
4 was in charge of the military jurisdiction, discussed this with me. As
5 this is a constitutional category, the president of the Assembly, the
6 speaker, proposed that the item on the agenda be postponed, pending
7 possible amendments to the Constitution, whereafter we would proceed to a
8 reshuffle to change the respective jurisdictions of the military and
9 civilian judiciaries. As at that session, the prime minister,
10 Mr. Djeric, resigned, and I went to Belgrade
11 afterwards.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see Serbian page 88 and
14 English page 92.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And tell us succinctly what it was that you advocated at this
17 session.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So Serbian 88, English 92.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. The last sentence in the Serbian version:
21 "We have another item, a proposal of a decision for combining
22 military and civilian prosecutorial offices and the judiciary."
23 A. Yes. This was a proposal sent to the Assembly.
24 Q. Yes, thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in
Page 5121
1 Serbian, and in English also.
2 Sorry, it is the previous page in English and the next page in
3 Serbian.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This is your contribution -- this is your speech, Mr. Mandic.
7 Without reading it, please just tell us the gist of it.
8 A. As you have stated, I have already partly explained to this
9 Honourable Court that I asked that the civilian and military judiciaries
10 be combined, put together, because the military judiciary was not
11 operational, it was not efficient; and, in contrast to it, the civilian
12 judiciary was mainly well-established, but there was no work because of
13 the situation, because of the state of an imminent threat of war.
14 Mainly, the professional judges from the former system, as well
15 as prosecutors, were sitting in the civilian judicial system, but they
16 were not working. There was a huge accumulation of problems in the
17 field. The gravest crimes against life and limb and against property
18 were being committed. There was violations of international conventions
19 of human rights and freedoms from 1949, as well as other documents.
20 And in seeking a way of how to render operational the rule of
21 law, put into practice the rule of law, the ministry also consulted some
22 professors, for instance, Professor Kokolj from the Faculty of Law in
23 Mostar, and proposed that we combine -- put together the two judicial
24 systems in order to put into practice and establish the rule of law.
25 Q. Thank you. Let me just explain something. You say you know --
Page 5122
1 you say that whenever we are at Assembly sessions, we criticise both
2 systems, they are not operational, the number of perpetrators and of
3 crimes is growing; and you say we have to solve this, and we have to
4 process Serbs -- prosecute Serbs. Then you go on to say that there are
5 so many judicial -- holders of judicial offices whom we have elected, but
6 we do not have a complete system, neither the civilian nor the military
7 judiciary, but crime is growing. And towards the end, you say:
8 "Judges have come to see me, complaining of the way on-site
9 investigations were carried out. A military police and a military
10 investigation officer go to the site, and there are big problems," and so
11 on and so forth.
12 Is this the way it was?
13 A. Yes, these are my very words which are recorded here.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 I recommend to the participants to read this for themselves.
16 Can we go -- scroll down to see what Mr. Krajisnik says.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters also have it on the
18 screen before Mr. Karadzic proceeds, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. "Let us hear the military, too, and let the initiative be
21 addressed to our constitutional commission, and let us put in charge our
22 ministry and our Main Staff."
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we see the next Serbian
24 page, and the English, too.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5123
1 Q. "They are to co-ordinate that material, that it should be dealt
2 with at the session."
3 That is my proposal. And then General Gvero responds.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last sentence.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. "I therefore think ..." Can you read that.
7 A. "I therefore think that the proposal of the president that this
8 be considered as a suggestion, not to say initiative, to weigh who is in
9 favour and who is against. I personally think we would act not only
10 unconstitutionally and unlawfully if we opted for this solution, but we
11 would actually venture into a pioneering exploit, which is something
12 beyond world practice."
13 Q. And then the speaker, Mr. Krajisnik, is trying to finish this on
14 a conciliatory note, saying:
15 "We should task our ministry with this initiative, so they would
16 contact the Main Staff, and, together with them, analyse the situation,
17 forward it to the Constitutional Committee, which would submit this to
18 the Assembly for deliberation."
19 And then they voted for this?
20 A. Yes. I think it was a big mistake. An operative staff cannot
21 manage the judiciary. I think they were wrong in involving the
22 Main Staff. The General Staff has its own departments, one of them in
23 charge of the military judiciary, but these people were operations
24 officers. They controlled the army. They could not control the
25 judiciary. I think it was a big mistake that the initiative of the
Page 5124
1 Ministry of Justice was not accepted in early July. There would have
2 been much, much lower crime rates, and all of them would have been
3 prosecuted, and we would now be able to present to this Court the result
4 of these prosecutions and trials.
5 Q. I hope, Mr. Minister, that we will be able to present this.
6 I think the combined sentences given to Serbian perpetrators of crimes
7 against Muslims and Croats amount to hundreds of years.
8 Do you know of a single sentence handed down to a Muslim or a
9 Croat who had done something against the Serbs?
10 A. I don't doubt that such judgements exist, but I'm trying to be
11 self-critical. If we had started this earlier, there would have been
12 fewer crimes and these judgements would have served as a deterrent to
13 others.
14 Now, as far as the Muslim side is concerned, I don't know of any
15 prosecutions. I just don't know about it.
16 Q. You did confirm that the killer of the Serbian wedding party
17 member, Ramiz Delalic, or Ismet, was portrayed as a hero and invited to a
18 TV show, but then Celo and the other Delalic were liquidated later?
19 A. Juka Prazina was killed in Belgium, and Caco was killed in
20 Sarajevo
21 Ramiz Delalic was also killed in an ambush.
22 Q. But they did not live long; not because of their crimes against
23 the Serbs, but because they had turned against Avdo Hebib and the Muslim
24 authorities?
25 A. Well, these are criminal show-downs within the federation. I
Page 5125
1 don't know much about that.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we done with this document? Is
3 there anything the Trial Chamber wants to know with regard to this? Can
4 we have it admitted, and move on to another one?
5 JUDGE KWON: I take it, by the number you gave, this has already
6 been admitted as a Prosecution exhibit. And I have some further
7 questions.
8 Can we go back to the portion where Mr. Mandic spoke; probably
9 page 91 in English.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe 92. Yes, that's right, and
11 it's 88 in Serbian -- 89 in Serbian.
12 JUDGE KWON: In the latter part of your speech, I note the
13 passage which goes like this: I'll read out:
14 "I think that at this moment we really need ... there are
15 terrible practical problems, conflicts of jurisdiction. Was the man who
16 committed a crime in the morning on leave or on holiday? Is he a
17 civilian or a military conscript?" Et cetera.
18 Did you see that passage, Mr. Mandic?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I'm following.
20 JUDGE KWON: Could you expand a bit further on this? At the
21 time, did you have these soldiers who were commuting from home?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, Your Honour, there
23 were lulls when troops went home to wash, to take a change of clothes, or
24 they got home leave from the army. The rule was that when a conscript
25 leaves his position to go home, if he was on official leave, he was under
Page 5126
1 the jurisdiction of the army, or if he was going home -- going back to
2 his position from home when he committed a crime, he was still under the
3 jurisdiction of the army.
4 However, this was not quite clear to everyone, and the
5 authorities in charge of prosecution, the civilian and the military
6 police, did not always understand who had jurisdiction over individuals
7 who perpetrated crimes. But, in fact, everyone who committed a crime in
8 a war zone or related to war activities fell under the jurisdiction of
9 military authorities.
10 We complied at the time with the Criminal Code of the
11 Federal Yugoslavia
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Mandic.
13 My next question is related to the last part of your
14 intervention, which goes like this: I quote:
15 "Judges came to see me, complaining of the way on-site
16 investigations were carried out. A military police and a military
17 investigation officer go to the site. They say, This is a civilian. He
18 refuses to do the job, so he goes back, then others go to the site, but
19 until they do, things get complicated. It creates great problems."
20 Could you explain further what this means to me?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a report is received of an
22 incident involving a crime, it's usually the civilian police who goes --
23 who go on-site to investigate; and the police officer, if he's aware of
24 the Criminal Code and criminal law, is able to decide whether the
25 incident falls under the jurisdiction of the military or the civilian
Page 5127
1 prosecutor, the military or the civilian judiciary.
2 In the former Yugoslavia
3 the prosecutor, but by the investigating judge; and these on-site
4 investigations were done under the jurisdiction of the Court. There were
5 special judges for that, and it would be determined on-site who is or
6 isn't in charge. If the one who came first is not -- does not have
7 jurisdiction and he leaves, then before the one who is really in charge
8 arrives, clues the superior the site is tampered with, evidence is
9 destroyed. And I tried to prevent this sort of thing happening for the
10 judiciary to function more efficiently.
11 Now, another problem was that the military command took judges
12 from the ranks of already-elected civilian judiciary, and they had the
13 right to do that. They had the right to mobilise people. And thus, for
14 instance, Rajko Colovic, who was a judge of the Regular Court in
15 Vlasenica, left to become the president of the Military Court in
16 Han Pijesak, and there was an exchange and spill-over and turn-over of
17 staff between the two branches of the judiciary.
18 JUDGE KWON: What time-frame are you talking about when you
19 testified about Judge Colovic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Summer 1992, when Mr. Colovic was
21 elected president of the State Commission for Exchanges. He left to
22 become the president of the Regular Court in Vlasenica. And very soon
23 after, he left again to become the president of the Military Court in
24 Han Pijesak.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just one further -- two further questions:
Page 5128
1 Who did you mean by "military investigators," separate from
2 military police?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are military investigating
4 judges. You have to understand that the on-site investigation was not
5 conducted by a prosecutor, but by an investigating judge. That was a
6 category of judges that existed in the former Yugoslavia. And only
7 investigating judges dealt with on-site investigations. They would make
8 protocols of crime-scene investigations, and they would submit it to the
9 prosecutor, who then decided whether to start a prosecution or not.
10 All the evidence collected by the forensics, by scene-of-crime
11 officers, would be included in that report. And when the whole file is
12 complete, the investigating judge submits it to the prosecutor, who
13 decides whether elements of the crime -- elements of crime are in
14 existence and sufficient to start a criminal proceedings.
15 JUDGE KWON: Was the Military Court or judiciary and/or military
16 investigating judge in existence by the time of this speech in, i.e.,
17 November 1992?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were both the military
19 judiciary and military prosecutors' offices. They were not
20 well-organised and they didn't work well, because the judiciary and
21 military prisons were organised attached to prisons, and every corps had
22 their judicial organ. The Krajina Corps had its own, the Sarajevo
23 Romanija Corps had its own. And it was not very efficient. It was not
24 well-organised. And crimes and criminals proliferated.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
Page 5129
1 Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 May I draw the attention of the parties, and primarily the
4 attention of the Trial Chamber, to pages 13 and 14 of this document,
5 where Mr. Mandic says:
6 "I will briefly inform you that in the past five or six Assembly
7 sessions, out of 100 items on the agenda, 90 dealt with the judiciary and
8 administration. And 10 of us from the Department of The judiciary and
9 Administration worked as best as we could, and we chased the local
10 officials to get them to establish proper judicial organs. We insisted
11 that this should be discussed by the government. In fact, somebody
12 insisted that this should be submitted to the government for their
13 decision, but I opposed this because it should be done by the Assembly."
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Does that mean you opposed the idea that the government should be
16 in charge of appointing judges?
17 A. Yes, because that would have meant that executive authority would
18 interfere with legislative authority and judicial authority. That would
19 have been wrong. The government is the executive branch of power. They
20 should not decide about judges.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since this document is already in
22 evidence, can we see 1D2088. I'm not sure it has been translated.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I just want to show how many of you worked in the judiciary.
25 It's a list of employees in the Ministry of Justice in December 1992.
Page 5130
1 Tell us, very briefly -- we also see the head of bookkeeping,
2 et cetera. Just tell us, by end 1992 --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: That's 16250, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. TIEGER: And if I may, in connection with the Court's
7 question about the time-frame regarding Mr. Colovic and his movement in
8 connection with the Exchange Commission and judgeships, it may be in --
9 there's a reference to Mr. Colovic in the 9 June government session, the
10 exhibit number which I don't have at the moment but can get.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this the entire staff of the Ministry of Justice in 1992?
14 A. Mr. President, Your Honour, there were 21 people working at the
15 Ministry of Justice. If you take into account that the last six persons
16 were drivers, who finished only high school, and that numbers 9 to 17
17 were technical services, you will realise that there were only 10 people
18 who established the judicial organs in 1992. We worked 10, 12 hours a
19 day. We were constantly in communication with regions. We talked to
20 future judges and prosecutors. We started out with one car and had three
21 cars by the end of 1992.
22 Q. It's recorded as you worked 10, 12 hours. You said "16 hours a
23 day." You worked 16 hours a day?
24 A. Yes, 16 hours a day.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can better understand you now,
Page 5131
1 because that's what we are doing now; we are working 16 hours a day here.
2 Can we have this document admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D443, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is already in evidence. The
6 session was held on the 23rd and 24th November, and the Trial Chamber
7 will find all of it interesting.
8 May I now ask for 65 ter 127 in e-court.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. While we're waiting for that: Do you remember, Minister, that
11 you made appeals in the media for persons who had passed the bar exam to
12 speak up? And I think that we discussed it over the past few days.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether this is the
15 17th Presidency Session on the 11th of July? And then I'd like to look
16 at items 2 and 4.
17 A. AD or items on the agenda?
18 Q. Items on the agenda. And then we'll deal with item 2.
19 A. "Agenda:
20 "1. Adoption of the minutes of the 15th Session.
21 "2. Issuing a public statement to the people on the question of
22 moving and retaining people."
23 Q. Thank you. 2 now.
24 A. "It was concluded that a decision be adopted on the signing of a
25 proclamation and the moving out and retention of citizens from certain
Page 5132
1 parts of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina, and on guarantees and safety,
2 on condition that the people be disarmed, hostile activities cease, and
3 peace be established."
4 Q. Thank you. What is meant are the Muslims and Croats who live in
5 our territory, they are asked to become civilians; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you read AD-3, number 2.
8 A. "The proposal was adopted to convene the Assembly on the
9 22nd of July, 1992, in Pale. It is necessary to discuss at the Assembly
10 the functioning of the authorities and the question of the organisation
11 of the Serb autonomous districts."
12 Q. Just the first sentence of item 4.
13 A. "All nominations for military prosecutors were verified."
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page,
15 number 6. In English, could we just scroll down. It's the same page.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Is a special commission being appointed here for crimes -- for
18 dealing with crimes committed against Serbs in the territory of the
19 federation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D444, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D2099.
Page 5133
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is that the proclamation that is referred to in item 2 of the
3 agenda of this Presidency session? It's the same day, the
4 11th of July, 1992; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to present this briefly.
7 In the first paragraph, what is referred to is genocide in what
8 was later turned into the federation, and, secondly, it says:
9 "The Presidency recalls that the Geneva Convention states that
10 civilians living in areas affected by war must be allowed to leave the
11 area. Furthermore, emigration can only be voluntary; therefore, it
12 cannot be either obstructed or encouraged.
13 "All citizens of the Serb Republic
14 Croat and Muslim ethnicity shall be guaranteed all rights ensured by a
15 state based on the rule of law."
16 And so on and so forth.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page, and in
18 English it's the same page.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Minister, do you agree that with the exception of Drvar, where
21 there perhaps weren't very many Croats, one or two, but there weren't any
22 Muslims, that there was not a single town or settlement in Bosnia -- in
23 Republika Srpska that was ethnically pure?
24 A. As far as I know, there was no such town.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 5134
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Indeed, many had left. We are
2 going to clarify that. But I have a set of regulations here that shows
3 that all the way up until the end of the war there was not a single
4 settlement that was ethnically pure.
5 Can this be admitted?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D445, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 186, please.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Let me ask you, Minister: Do you remember or do you know that
11 even on Romanija, which is well known as a mountain of outlaws, there
12 were several villages that had surrendered their weapons, and the
13 population -- the Muslim population remained there all the way up until
14 the end of the war?
15 A. I know Renovica, Vraca, and around Sokolac there were two or
16 three villages. The Muslim population stayed there throughout the war.
17 Q. Satorovici, Burati, and so on. I've forgotten all the names.
18 Pale, yes. Yes, Pale is not in the transcript. Yes.
19 Do you know of a single village, Serb village, in the
20 Muslim-Croat federation that remained intact up until September 1992,
21 that survived as such until September 1992?
22 A. I cannot give you an answer to that. I was not familiar with any
23 of that.
24 Q. Thank you. This is a document of minutes of the 38th Session,
25 held on the 11th of July, so we are dealing with July all the time;
Page 5135
1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 5 in Serbian,
4 AD-10. So it's item 10 of the conclusions, actually. It says "Current
5 Issues."
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you see that?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, could we have it in
9 English, too, AD-10. I don't know what the page is.
10 JUDGE KWON: Page 5.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. 2 and 3, could you have a look at that.
14 A. 2 --
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
16 Please carry on, Mr. Mandic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Item 2:
19 "The Ministry of Information is entrusted with informing, in a
20 suitable way, the parents whose children are captured in the territory of
21 our republic, that they will be tried according to our regulations; that
22 full lawfulness will be secured, and their rights and freedom will be
23 observed; that international rules will be respected, and that adequate
24 regulations have already been passed regarding this matter."
25 Number 3:
Page 5136
1 "A working group has been established, made up of
2 Milan Trbojevic, deputy prime minister, and representatives of the
3 Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Justice, and the Ministry of Health,
4 Work, Welfare and Family Matters, to prepare a set of regulations on the
5 treatment of Muslims and other nations on the territory of the
6 Serb Republic
7 and obligations, international conventions on human rights and freedoms
8 that oblige us have to be taken into consideration."
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. How about the last sentence?
11 A. "A broader debate should be held on the proposed document
12 exclusively at the session of the Serb people of Bosnia and Herzegovina
13 Q. Do you agree that in item 8 you inform the government yet again
14 about that proposal to transfer the jurisdiction of military courts to
15 regular courts? Minister, you know that Serb military conscripts had to
16 respond to call-up. Do you agree that Muslims and Croats in
17 Republika Srpska had a privileged status or, rather, that there was
18 positive discrimination; namely, that they did not have to go into the
19 Army of Republika Srpska?
20 A. I know that they didn't have to, and I know that, for instance,
21 in Trebinje, there was a brigade that consisted of ethnic Muslims who
22 fought in the Army of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. In Krajina and in Northern Bosnia as well. Now, one of the
24 commanders of this Muslim unit is now a president of a municipality. Do
25 you remember that we did not send such Muslim units to the front-line
Page 5137
1 against the Muslims; rather, they were sent to the HVO front-line?
2 A. I don't know about that, Mr. President.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Can this be admitted?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit this.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D446, Your Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09243,
8 please.
9 I'm not sure about this. The English seems to be all right, but
10 009243 in Serbian.
11 JUDGE KWON: I was advised that there seems to be a mistake in
12 uploading. Both versions seem to be in English.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The English version is all right.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. This has to do with a strictly confidential document, copy
16 number 7:
17 "Brief review of the functioning of the MUP so far and outlines
18 of its future activities. Summary of the meeting of senior MUP officials
19 on the 11th of July, 1992."
20 I am going to put it to you in Serbian, and the other
21 participants can follow in English.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have English page 7,
23 please.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
Page 5138
1 I understand that the incorrect B/C/S version is up-loaded. At
2 the moment, we're looking for the corresponding correct original, and
3 we'll -- okay. We're actually printing it out now. That seems to be the
4 most expeditious way.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. On page 5 in Serbian, let's just see who is speaking there. It's
9 Stojan Zupljanin, and he says:
10 "The War Presidency makes decisions, and their implementation is
11 carried out by the MUP."
12 Then Zupljanin presented some of the proposals and problems that
13 have to do with the activity of the Ministry of the Interior.
14 And now the first point is:
15 "The army and crisis staffs," or, rather, "the War Presidency
16 asked for as many Muslims as possible to be rounded up, and such
17 undefined camps are left to the organs of the Ministry of the Interior.
18 Conditions are very poor in these camps."
19 I believe that the other participants in these proceedings can
20 see that.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's page 8, the army and
22 the crisis staffs. So can I have page 8, please.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. So, in actual fact, is this the basis of this misunderstanding;
25 namely, what should be done with the civilian population in combat areas?
Page 5139
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure Mr. Mandic was able to follow. Do you
2 like to see the original? It's a document of 29 pages, and it's now
3 being printed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have understood. I
5 mean, I have understood what -- but, you see, I don't have an answer to
6 that. I was not aware of the situation there, so I cannot respond,
7 Mr. President.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. However, do you know that top police officials fought for the
10 establishment of lawfulness and legality as best they could?
11 A. I know that in July or August 1992 we established a government
12 commission consisting of representatives of the Ministries of Justice,
13 Police, and Defence respectively, I think. They toured the area, that is
14 to say, all of Republika Srpska, they went to all municipalities, and
15 they instructed crisis staffs and the army to close down illegal camps,
16 detention centres, and so on.
17 On several occasions, they found civilians there who had not
18 participated at all in any of the war operations. I remember that one
19 commission went to Herzegovina
20 yet another commission went to the Krajina.
21 A report was drafted on that occasion, and I submitted it to the
22 government and the Presidency on that very same day. I can speak about
23 that, of course. I can confirm that. And I can confirm that, too, that
24 the police of Republika Srpska was trying, in every conceivable way, to
25 enforce legality on all levels on the ground.
Page 5140
1 Q. Thank you. Now you'll get the Serbian version, per kind favour
2 of Mr. Tieger.
3 Let us look at page 5 in Serbian. We are on the right page in
4 English. It says that:
5 "Only in one action in Mrkonjic Grad, there were 20 casualties,
6 20 policemen -- active-duty and reserve policemen got killed, so they
7 took part in such operations. And also it says here that the ratio of
8 active-duty and reserve servicemen abroad is 1:3.7, and here it is 1:3.
9 There are about 8.500 active-duty and reserve members in the region at
10 the moment, 142 of -- who are of other ethic backgrounds."
11 And if we can go further down:
12 "Dealing with the government of the SAO Krajina, there will be
13 less interventions, and less influence will be exerted. Also, the
14 functional system of communications has broken down."
15 Do you see that on page 7?
16 A. This precisely is confirmation of what I said before; namely,
17 that the autonomous districts, the SAOs, were actual mini state-lets in
18 themselves. They had all the branches of power. And that was the
19 problem that the central authorities had to grapple with, because they
20 were actually divested of their power until the autonomous districts were
21 dismantled.
22 Q. Look at page 6 now, please:
23 "The military judiciary is not functioning, the judges have not
24 been elected," et cetera.
25 This is all by Mr. Zupljanin, who is presenting the problems that
Page 5141
1 they are encountering:
2 "Several thousands of court cases aren't finished. There are no
3 judges for criminal cases. They are afraid. They are being threatened.
4 In some municipalities, the courts are not functioning. Inveterate
5 criminals are being released from prisons, which affects the work of the
6 interior organs as well as of the entire states."
7 And then it goes on to say:
8 "Measures should be taken at the same time to clarify some
9 provisions of the law regulating this matter, to re-organise courts, to
10 set up investigation centres, because this is also foreseen under the
11 Law on Criminal Procedure. The three-day detention is inadequate, and we
12 should consider the proposal for the Presidency of the Serbian Republic
13 of Bosnia and Herzegovina to compose a decree, prescribe a provision
14 according to which detention could last up to 21 days. This was received
15 in the Presidency, but we did not accept this detention by the police of
16 21 days, if you recall."
17 Does this tell you what the magnitude was of the difficulties
18 that these centres were faced with?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you say that this is a correct position and that great
21 effort is made by the chief of the centre to identify problems and to see
22 to it that they are rectified?
23 A. Here, the problems are enumerated that we have already discussed.
24 Q. So we cannot say that the chief of the police in Banja Luka
25 ignoring problems or that he is pleased that there are problems, but that
Page 5142
1 he's actually saddened by them and that he's seeking for a solution;
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 9 in English; page 6 in
5 Serbian. Actually, no --
6 JUDGE KWON: Before we move on, Mr. Karadzic, there's a passage,
7 probably on page 6 in Serbian, which goes to the effect:
8 "Several thousands of court cases are not finished. There are no
9 judges for court cases. They believe they are being threatened. In some
10 settlements, courts are not functioning."
11 Are we talking about a civilian judiciary?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Zupljanin is
13 talking about the civilian judiciary, but this is a back-log of cases
14 from peacetime, litigations, criminal cases, et cetera, the back-log that
15 the judiciary had to deal with. These are not cases which arose in the
16 war. There were several thousand cases in different courts, litigations,
17 non-contentious cases, criminal cases, investigations, et cetera.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. So on page 6 we see the speech of Andrija Bjelosevic, head of the
21 Doboj Centre of Security Services of the Doboj region.
22 Can we move on to page 7 of the Serbian, and in English it is
23 still page 9.
24 The first paragraph:
25 "It was agreed with the army that after the liberation of these
Page 5143
1 territories, the engaged policemen should return, but the army is now
2 preventing that. These other policemen cannot go to the police stations
3 to perform their regular duties within the organ of the interior."
4 Do you recall that the commanders first mobilised the police and
5 then were reluctant to let them go because they needed every soldier?
6 A. The competent corps commander decided on engaging police, and I
7 have said repeatedly that very often the police would be engaged in
8 combat and that it was re-subordinated to the military command in
9 question. Sometimes the army would not return the policemen to their
10 regular duties, but kept them under their control and command for
11 possible further engagement.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see English page number 10.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And Mr. Bjelosevic is proposing that financing should be solved
16 at the central level, and he says:
17 "He who pays, he can order. We have to resolve financial
18 matters. We have to prevent any involvement of local politics, as a
19 typical example."
20 And then he goes on to say:
21 "Persons that are captured or picked up by the army and brought
22 in groups and without any documents documenting the reasons for their
23 arrest are to be taken care of by the army; whereas persons taken
24 captive, arrested by organs of the interior, remained within the control
25 of the MUP, needless to say, against proper documentation."
Page 5144
1 We see the next paragraph that --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's comment: This is absolutely
3 impossible to follow. Would Mr. Karadzic indicate the paragraph that he
4 is reading.
5 JUDGE KWON: It's impossible for the interpreters to follow what
6 you're reading, so could you kindly indicate what passage you are reading
7 from so that they can follow.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 7 in Serbian. Page 7 in
9 Serbian, please.
10 JUDGE KWON: I note the time. We can continue after the break,
11 or you would like to conclude this part of your examination?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is up to you, Your Honour. We
13 still do not have page 7 on the screen, so perhaps after the break we can
14 continue.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll have a break for 25 minutes. We'll
16 resume at quarter to 6.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.
19 JUDGE KWON: Do we have page 7 before us?
20 Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we do now have page 7. So in
22 English it should be page 10. Yes.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Bjelosevic also says that:
25 "We should settle the financing question. He who pays, he is the
Page 5145
1 one who gives orders."
2 And now we have the paragraph that the OTP also stressed; namely:
3 "Persons taken captive or picked up by the army are being brought
4 in groups and left without any accompanying documents about the reasons
5 of their arrest."
6 And now he's calling for regularity; namely, that these captives
7 should be taken care of by the army, and those who have been arrested
8 because of criminal offences should have been taken care of -- should be
9 taken care of by the police.
10 And then the next paragraph, he says:
11 "Combat actions liberate new areas, and with the
12 previously-committed crimes by the enemy ..." meaning against the Serbs;
13 right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. " ... primarily looting, certain Serbs are also now committing
16 them when these places are liberated."
17 Do you remember and do you agree that during the war some places
18 were taken, i.e., liberated, that would later be returned, for instance,
19 Jajce or Odjak, and that this was military logic while the war was on and
20 the combat operations were on? Does this refer to places that were taken
21 for military purposes, for military reasons?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you see here that, in this same paragraph, that they were
24 also -- or, actually, that authorised persons opposed the looters, and
25 they drew weapons at them; and the police was unable to
Page 5146
1 efficiently-enough prevent such looting, because it says in this
2 paragraph weapons would be drawn to prevent the interior organ in
3 executing his duty preventing looting? Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, which
6 will be very brief. It begins with "Cvijetic." We can also use the
7 English. Can we see the English page.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Take a look at this. Manning, personnel, especially in police
10 station, problems regarding crime, the problem of involving the militia,
11 the police, in combat operations, the isolation of Ilidza and Nedzarici
12 because the airport was handed over to UNPROFOR, which hinders
13 communication, et cetera. And they would not, if you remember, let us
14 use the runway to pass. Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, also in
17 English. The next page, please.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the
19 speaker, please.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is Krsto Savic reporting on
21 the situation in Herzegovina
22 Can we have the next page in Serbian too, please.
23 Yes, he says that he cannot talk about -- speak about old
24 Herzegovina
25 Q. What is the old Herzegovina
Page 5147
1 A. It is the Romanija Plateau, Foca, Herzegovina, up to the
2 Neretva River
3 Montenegrin state.
4 Q. Cajnice, Rudo, et cetera?
5 A. Yes, from the Romanija Plateau.
6 Q. Here, the chief of that service says that he cannot speak about
7 old Herzegovina
8 it. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, he says that there are no communications.
10 Q. Thank you. He goes on to say the capability of the police is in
11 close connection with the establishment of authority, which is still not
12 operational, while reserve police units are holding the front combat
13 lines. He then goes on to say that 10 have been killed and 35 wounded,
14 and that neither the civilian or the military prosecutors' offices is
15 functioning in this territory. It is impossible to get paramilitary
16 formations out of Trebinje, for example, so that it is imperatively
17 necessary to demand that either they be put under the command of the
18 Army of the Serb Republic
19 Do you remember that we arrested a group there precisely in his
20 Nevesinje?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr. Minister, here in the indictment, in the joint criminal
23 enterprise, along with my own name, are also mentioned some persons whom
24 we arrested; a certain Zuca and some members of paramilitary units,
25 et cetera.
Page 5148
1 Do you know of a single paramilitary unit that we tolerated the
2 moment we knew about it?
3 A. I know that in 1992, in the summer, the police arrested some
4 Yellow Wasps in Zvornik, and Zuca was one of them. I know that the army
5 arrested Chetniks, or people who called themselves Seselj's men, at the
6 Jewish cemetery. And I know that very often there were conflicts --
7 clashes between the army troops and the paramilitary units which did not
8 wish to put themselves under the command of the regular army.
9 Q. Thank you. Here, distinguished Mr. Tieger has shown a picture
10 from 1992, towards the end of the war, of me meeting Arkan and his unit.
11 Do you remember that in 1991 -- sorry, in 1995 -- that, in 1991, Arkan
12 was arrested by the Croatian authorities, but they did not file a
13 criminal complaint against him, but exchanged him, because there was no
14 criminal offence?
15 A. Raznatovic was arrested in Zagreb as the leader of the Delijas,
16 the fans of the Red Star Soccer Club. And as far as I know, he was
17 released and returned to Belgrade
18 Q. From 1991 to 1995, was there a single criminal complaint filed
19 against him?
20 A. Not to my knowledge.
21 Q. Do you agree that his unit operated in a quite -- that it struck
22 one, actually, as quite disciplined and quite well-equipped, the one that
23 we saw on that photograph?
24 A. I'm not aware of that, Mr. President.
25 Q. Do you agree that in the autumn of 1991, against us were arranged
Page 5149
1 3 million Muslims and Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 5 million
2 inhabitants of Croatia
3 the end of the war?
4 A. What I know is that the Republika Srpska was bombarded by the
5 NATO Alliance
6 of whom there were, together with the Bosnian Croats, around 3 million.
7 That I know. Immediately before the Flash and Storm operations in
8 Croatia
9 the Krajina there and also with the Serbs across the Una River
10 Bosnian Krajina.
11 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that the fall of so many
12 municipalities in the Krajina, in Glamoc, Grahovo -- of Glamoc, Grahovo,
13 Mrkonjic Grad, Sanski Most, Kljuc, et cetera, that it was a tragedy, and
14 that it was a case of extreme necessity, and the last-ditch defence of
15 the Serbian People?
16 A. I cannot state an opinion on that issue. I'm not familiar with
17 the subject-matter.
18 Q. But do you agree that that autumn, from September until the peace
19 agreement was concluded in October, quite a few of these municipalities
20 and large areas fell?
21 A. I know that the regular Croatia Army arrived 16 kilometres from
22 Banja Luka, that it cleansed all the Krajina of Serbs, and that
23 General Ante Gotovina switched on and switched off lights some
24 16 kilometres from Banja Luka.
25 Q. Did you hear that, at that time, Arkan was there and fought under
Page 5150
1 the command of the MUP?
2 A. I don't know that.
3 Q. Did you hear that he or his unit committed any crimes or a single
4 crime in the autumn of 1995?
5 A. As far as the waging of war by Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, is
6 concerned, I practically know nothing about it, and especially not about
7 what he did in 1995. I have no information whatsoever to whom he was
8 subordinated, in what way, or any other information of that kind.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We shall see about that with
11 somebody else.
12 Can we now see the next page in both English and Serbian.
13 JUDGE KWON: While the page changes, Mr. Mandic: You confirmed
14 that from 1991 to 1995 there was not a single complaint against
15 Raznatovic, or Arkan?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked by Mr. Karadzic whether
17 there were any criminal reports. Well, probably in Belgrade, where he
18 lived, in Serbia
19 myself, was not aware that he was subject to criminal proceedings at that
20 time.
21 JUDGE KWON: You said not to your knowledge, but my question was:
22 As long as there's an information, you don't need a complaint from
23 somebody else in order to start investigation or prosecution? Am I
24 correct in so understanding?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we're talking about
Page 5151
1 the period from 1992 to 1995, I was living and working in Belgrade
2 time. As far as I know at that time in Serbia, there were no criminal
3 proceedings against Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, in the regular prosecutors'
4 offices and courts. As for other places, I have no information. And
5 that's what I told Mr. Karadzic.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I'll leave it there.
7 Let's move on.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you agree, Minister, that Mr. Raznatovic was not in
10 Republika Srpska from the 10th of April, when he was in Zvornik, until
11 the autumn of 1995, when he came to help in the Krajina when these
12 municipalities fell?
13 A. For the sake of Their Honours and for your sake, Mr. President,
14 I'll say that all I know is that in March there was an incident and a
15 conflict in Bijeljina, when members of the Presidency, that is,
16 Biljana Plavsic and Fikret Abdic, together with Simovic, went to
17 Bijeljina. Then I saw that Zeljko Raznatovic was in Bijeljina with his
18 unit. After this, I did not have an opportunity to learn anything about
19 his movements either in Bosnia-Herzegovina or in Croatia or anywhere
20 else.
21 You know, Mr. President, that as of December 1992, I lived in
22 Belgrade
23 Wounded, and so I had no knowledge of these events, especially not in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that my learned friend, Mr. Tieger,
Page 5152
1 played a conversation between a secretary in the MUP and Raznatovic of
2 the 16th of April, and that she did not know who was in control of
3 Zvornik, and he was saying that he had already left Zvornik? This was on
4 the 16th of April, 1992. Is that correct?
5 A. I think we clarified this when Mr. Tieger insisted. This had to
6 do with the capture of a driver who took a family to Belgrade, and there
7 were Muslims involved, and this lady, Radmila - not Radmila Radovcic who
8 was my secretary, but another Radmila - spoke to Raznatovic. At that
9 time, we did not establish where he was. He didn't know what had
10 happened in Zvornik. We were looking for that young man to help us.
11 Q. Do you remember that he was certainly not in Zvornik because he
12 was trying to get through to Zvornik on the phone, without any success?
13 Is that correct?
14 A. Well, from that conversation we concluded he was not in Zvornik,
15 because he was trying to contact Zvornik to learn what was going on
16 there. But where he actually was was something we couldn't establish
17 based on that intercept.
18 Q. Do you agree that the Army of Republika Srpska was critical, not
19 to say hostile, towards Arkan and that the Croatian Army was hostile
20 towards Arkan; and had they had any grounds for doing so, they would have
21 filed a criminal report against him?
22 A. I know for certain that there was enmity and disagreement among
23 all the paramilitary units and the Army of Republika Srpska. As regards
24 the Croatian Army, I don't know, and I can't say anything about that.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that after we arrested the Yellow Wasps
Page 5153
1 and reported them, the Yellow Wasps were tried in Serbia for war crimes
2 committed in Zvornik?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In some of the trials here, as I've seen in the judgements or in
5 the testimonies, the OTP suggested that we arrested them because they
6 were stealing vehicles. However, it can be seen from the criminal report
7 that the car keys were found in their possession only after their arrest.
8 Was our criminal report, which we sent to Serbia, was it drawn up because
9 of thefts of cars or because of war crimes?
10 A. Mico Stanisic issued the order that these Wasps, or whatever they
11 were called, be arrested because of the crimes they had committed; that
12 is, rapes, murders, looting of property, and destruction of property of
13 the population that had fled.
14 This is the first time I've heard of these cars or vehicles,
15 Mr. President.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 13 in
18 English, and it's the page we see in Serbian.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. We see the name "Aleksandar Pantic" here. It's page 13 in
21 English. He's again reporting on the situation in Bijeljina. He says
22 it's a transit area, that paramilitary units hang around there, that
23 members of the Red Berets launched two attacks on the police station in
24 Brcko but were then disarmed.
25 Do you agree that there were groups buying red berets and
Page 5154
1 parading around wearing these red berets, and that this had nothing to do
2 with the police from Serbia
3 A. These paramilitary units gave themselves different names and
4 dressed in different ways. They wore red caps or Serbian "sajkaca" caps
5 and other parts of Serbian national costume. As to who these Red Berets
6 were, I have no idea.
7 Q. Thank you. Further on, we see that this gentleman, Mr. Pantic,
8 is complaining that although check-points are in place, criminals bypass
9 the check-points very skillfully, and he agrees with the description of
10 the difficulties encountered in other centres. Is this correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can skip over page 14. It's
14 14 in English, so let's look at page 15, where Mr. Jesuric, the chief of
15 the Department for Foreign Nationals and Passports, reports on matters
16 within his purview, but these are not so important as regards the hunting
17 down of criminals.
18 So let's move on, two pages further on in the Serbian version.
19 Yes. Do we have page 14 in English? Mr. Stanisic, Mico Stanisic,
20 minister -- no, the Serbian page was the one we had before. That's the
21 right page, yes. But in English I don't see where Mico Stanisic begins.
22 Probably page 13.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 12.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 14. Yes, yes, this is where
25 it begins.
Page 5155
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mico Stanisic is summing up what was heard at the meeting, and in
3 the second paragraph it says:
4 "He emphasised that the government was working on a new
5 political-territorial division of the Serb Republic
6 previously necessary forms of Serb autonomous districts and regions and
7 to introduce districts."
8 Is this correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then he goes on to describe the difficult conditions in which
11 work and life went on, and he says that Ustasha arriving from Croatia
12 Sandzak, strengthening the Muslim-Croat coalition.
13 Do you remember that up to 60.000 members of the regular
14 Croatian army were present in Sandzak?
15 A. I know that Croats crossed the Rivers Sava and Una in the border
16 villages and that they engaged in combat, but I don't know what numbers
17 were there.
18 Q. But you agree that these guards brigades from Split and Dubrovnik
19 entered Bosnia-Herzegovina from the south and that there were as many as
20 60.000 of them at times?
21 A. I know that they entered the territory of Herzegovina
22 Dubrovnik
23 those who did so.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 13 in Serbian and
25 15 in English.
Page 5156
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Look at this passage:
3 "In spite of all this, we have to do our best, and we have to be
4 responsible for our area of competency. There is constant discussion of
5 the need to prevent looting, to maintain law and order, to ensure the
6 security of citizens, and so on, but it must be kept in mind that certain
7 obstacles have to be removed and that the conditions have to be created
8 for the more efficient work of the organs of the interior," and so on.
9 "As military courts are not functioning, a soldier arrested for
10 committing a crime is afterwards released and he goes back to his unit,"
11 and so on and so forth.
12 "In order to discover and prevent crimes, the check-points are
13 still not functioning efficiently. And bearing in mind that the army's
14 participating in the check-points --"
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 16 in English.
16 Page 16 in English.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The minister is referring to ordinary soldiers manning the
19 check-points, not the commands; do you agree?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He says:
22 "Otherwise, the basic thing from which we will not depart is that
23 the Ministry of the Interior is a professional organisation, that is, a
24 professional police force, without any influence of politics, which means
25 individuals, groups, parties."
Page 5157
1 After that:
2 "The Presidency of the Serb Republic
3 forbidding party activities in a war regime."
4 And then he says:
5 "The Ministry of the Interior will survive or disappear,
6 depending on whether a state is established and continues to exist."
7 So do you recall that at the request of Prime Minister Djeric I
8 put on hold the work of the Serbian Democratic Party, but many other
9 parties became active, so I reactivated the Serbian Democratic Party in
10 February 1993?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 14 in Serbian.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. It says here:
16 "In order to establish full constitutionality and legality, we've
17 decided to prevent crimes committed not only by civilians, but also by
18 soldiers and officers, active policemen, members of the Ministry of the
19 Interior who committed crimes."
20 Minister, can we say that this police leadership was turning a
21 blind eye to the commission of crimes?
22 A. I think that the Serbian police was doing its job professionally
23 and according to the law. One of the reasons of the conflict -- for the
24 conflict between Mico Stanisic, the minister of the police, and
25 Biljana Plavsic, a member of the Presidency, was that Stanisic ordered
Page 5158
1 arrests and prosecutions of paramilitary units, and Biljana Plavsic
2 opposed this. She called on those paramilitary units to come and enter
3 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was a big problem because she
4 was in a position of authority at that time and had influence among the
5 Serbian people.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Can we have page 18 - it's 17 in English - where Drago Borovcanin
8 is speaking. And the sentence I'm interested in is on page 18.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. He puts a question, Drago Borovcanin.
11 Page 18 in English.
12 A. "Who was in charge of issuing certificates or documents for
13 various convoys?"
14 He asked that this issue be regulated. Then he also raised the
15 issue of check-points which should be mixed. By "mixed," he means both
16 police and military police.
17 Q. Can you look at what is on the screen? Drago Borovcanin says:
18 "What should be done, and what about the Muslims who want to move
19 to another country or the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina held
20 by the Muslim and Croat forces?"
21 At one of the government sessions - probably these minutes have
22 already been admitted into evidence or will be - there's an item on the
23 agenda to the effect that the government still doesn't know what the
24 criteria are for Muslims leaving or moving out. I will tell you what I
25 know about it.
Page 5159
1 Muslims asked to be allowed to move -- to change their place of
2 residence. The municipal authorities gave their permission. It was only
3 in two municipalities that they obstructed this in an illegal manner.
4 However, they asked for various documents, ranging from three to fifteen
5 various documents.
6 What happened in the government? Was it about the criteria to
7 permit them to move or to not permit them to move?
8 A. We actually had that admitted today, those minutes. We discussed
9 it. That was probably the case, but I don't remember what the criteria
10 were and what had to do with that, Mr. President. I can't remember.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you see here that Borovcanin says that:
12 "It is indispensable that those who are involved in crime be
13 removed from our ranks"?
14 Now I'm going to ask you the following: If it is undeniable that
15 there were policemen who committed crimes and that the top echelons of
16 the police treated them this way, do you know that the impression was
17 created, through indictments and proceedings, not only that this police
18 had neglected the commission of crimes in their territory, but that they
19 even committed some crimes themselves? What do you say to that?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: I object, Your Honour.
22 I think it's irrelevant, whatever this witness thinks he knows or
23 doesn't know about proceeding -- about the impression gained through
24 indictments and proceedings.
25 JUDGE KWON: We agree.
Page 5160
1 Could you reformulate the question, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Minister, since you were assistant minister in the joint MUP for
5 a long time and for a short period of time in Republika Srpska and you
6 were minister of justice for almost a year, can you say that that is
7 correct or incorrect; namely, that the police of Republika Srpska did not
8 only treat crimes negligently, but that they even committed them in an
9 organised way? I'm not asking you what you think. I'm asking what you
10 know about that.
11 A. All the police from the joint Ministry of the Interior of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina of Serb ethnicity transferred to the Serb MUP and they
13 worked there, so these are professionals who were involved in that line
14 of work for many years. It is certain, like in any police force in the
15 world, there are individuals who are corrupt and who committed certain
16 crimes. That can be the case in any police force in the world, in
17 democratic countries, in different regimes, socialist and others. I'm
18 certain that in 1992 the police did not commit any crimes in an organised
19 fashion. They either waged war, under the command of the army, or
20 protected law and order.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Can we now have page 18 in English.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Negus, assistant minister for legal, administrative, and
25 personnel affairs, suggests that our report be compiled on illegal acts
Page 5161
1 committed by paramilitary formations. He also supports
2 Andrija Bjelosevic, who pointed out that inspectors and senior personnel
3 from the seat of the MUP go to Doboj so that the MUP would be felt to be
4 functioning, which would reflect on discipline.
5 At that point in time, did teams -- were teams from the ministry
6 headquarters seconded, were they sent elsewhere?
7 A. I'm not aware of that.
8 Q. Thank you. Dobro Planojevic --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have his remarks here, so could
10 the participants kindly read that sentence, and then could we have
11 page 19. In Serbian, we can still keep the same page. Oh, no. No, no.
12 No. In Serbian, we don't even have page 16. So could I have page 16 in
13 Serbian, and in English could the participants please read this: "Dobro
14 Planojevic ..." and then his first sentence. And then let's move on to
15 the next page.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. It's that same person by the name of Dobro Planojevic who issued
18 those instructions on the 8th of June, I believe.
19 A. That's an order.
20 Q. Order; you're right.
21 Now, in July, Mr. Planojevic is saying how it was that he issued
22 that, and once again he says --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we have 16 in
24 Serbian.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5162
1 Q. "Crimes should be documented, especially war crimes. All crimes
2 should be documented, and those that cannot be documented for any reason,
3 that is to say, on-site investigation reports, photographs, expert
4 opinions, medical reports, et cetera, it's necessary to compile lists of
5 war criminals which are ..." and so on, so that none of this would remain
6 unpunished.
7 It says here that there are some cases that some policemen are
8 fleeing from certain units because they don't want to operate with
9 criminals; that's to say, that there are criminals at the front-line.
10 There is a danger of having a proper conflict. And the administration
11 sent a dispatch stating that -- what can be done in relation to
12 prosecution, and that all should help in the prevention of crime,
13 especially the police.
14 Minister, does that mean that the police is committed to the fact
15 that there should be no concealing of crimes?
16 A. Dobro Planojevic explained his order at this meeting,
17 Mr. President. Dobro Planojevic was a policeman from age 15, like Njegus
18 and like most of these people. I am certain that these are honourable
19 and honest policemen who carried out their work professionally, since I
20 know most of them from our previous police work. For about 15 years, I
21 worked with them, from policemen on the beat up to situations when we had
22 to solve the most complicated cases.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Can we have page 18 in Serbian and 19 in English. Serbian, 18;
25 English, 19.
Page 5163
1 JUDGE KWON: Before we move on, Mr. Mandic: When we read
2 Planojevic's first sentence, he said:
3 "The most serious form of endangering property and looting is
4 most often done during so-called mop-up operations."
5 Do you see that, Mr. Mandic?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: What did that "mop-up operation" mean, could you
8 tell us, by paramilitaries?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paramilitary and military
10 formations, Your Honour, in combat operations aimed at taking new
11 territories or, rather, a territory that was under the control of the
12 other warring party.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Minister, does this have to do with mopping up the population or
16 mopping up the remnants of paramilitary groups?
17 A. I'm not an expert, but my explanation is that "mopping up" meant
18 taking territory that was under the control of the other warring party.
19 Once territory is taken, paramilitary formations are looting property
20 from that area.
21 Q. Thank you. I wanted to see, however, what is meant by the
22 military term "mop-up." What is being mopped up, the population or
23 remaining groups, armed groups? Or, more precisely, is this a customary
24 term, in military terminology, anywhere in the world?
25 A. I've given my interpretation. I'm not an expert. I'm a witness.
Page 5164
1 I can just say what I know about for sure.
2 Q. Thank you. Let us see what Simo Tusevljak says towards the end
3 of the first paragraph. He says:
4 "Criminal reports are filed against all; for instance, in
5 Vlasenica -- just in Vlasenica," rather, "out of 73 criminal reports,
6 23 were filed against Serbs."
7 In English, it's the next page. In English, it's the next page.
8 "For the time being, the primary task is the documenting of war
9 crimes and the filing of criminal reports. War crimes are documented
10 even if they are committed by Serbs."
11 And further down, it says:
12 "It must be pointed out that in the Criminal Code there is no
13 mention of the authority of the criminal [as interpreted] police that is
14 detaining people."
15 Also, there are certain dead-lines involved. Let's not read all
16 of this now. Let us just look at page 24 in English and 23 in Serbian.
17 We see here that there are certain dead-lines. Number 7, can you
18 look at the first paragraph, number 7? It's 23 in Serbian.
19 A. Yes, I found it.
20 Q. The first paragraph of number 7.
21 A. Number 7:
22 "The prevention and detection of other criminal offences and
23 their perpetrators. Looting, war profiteering, serious criminal offences
24 against life and limb, and other crimes, regardless of who the
25 perpetrators are, are priorities."
Page 5165
1 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 6, does it not say that prevention and
2 documenting of war crimes, and so on and so forth, that that is a
3 constant task, like this one referred to in paragraph 7? Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in paragraph 2, Dobro Planojevic's position is repeated:
6 "If objective circumstances render the taking of measures
7 impossible due to the possibility of wider and bigger conflicts with the
8 perpetrators," et cetera, "then evidence and documentation are to be
9 compiled, and the MUP is to be informed on a regular basis."
10 So it's an ongoing task, a permanent task, as it were?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to recommend all the
13 other conclusions to all the participants.
14 English page 28 and Serbian page 28 as well, towards the bottom,
15 in relation to personnel affairs:
16 "Legal and other measures should be taken to remove personnel
17 from our ranks who had committed crimes or who had disqualified
18 themselves in other ways as members of the MUP."
19 It's page 29, further on. I don't want to tire you any further
20 on this, but the participants in these proceedings can have a look at
21 this document in its entirety, and I warmly recommend it to all of you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do we agree, Minister, that the police was constantly working on
24 improving their own efforts and reinforcing the rule of law?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5166
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Can this document be admitted?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D447, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I now have P1096. That's a
6 document that was admitted. It's a short part of a document that
7 concerns information about work up until a given point in time. So you
8 have the number, P1096. You can see here that copies were submitted both
9 to me and the prime minister, and the more extensive document was left
10 with the police.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The distinguished Mr. Tieger showed you, on English page 3, a
13 particular paragraph. Actually, it's page 3 in both versions.
14 Could I have both, please.
15 It's this part here, where it says: "The army ..." No, I'm
16 afraid, no, in Serbian it's the next one. It's the right page in
17 English, though.
18 Mr. Tieger showed this to you:
19 "The army, crisis staffs, and war presidencies have requested
20 that the army round up or capture as many Muslim civilians as possible,
21 and they leave such undefined camps," et cetera, et cetera.
22 Now, we are going to see what this document says about that, if
23 we look at it as a whole.
24 Taken out of context, it is represented as some kind of a plan.
25 If this were to be part of a state plan, would the police have opposed
Page 5167
1 it?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So this is not part of a state plan; right?
4 A. These are problems that the police is highlighting in their
5 reports, as well as ways and means of overcoming them.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Can we now have page 8 in Serbian and page 5 in English.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This may be the right time to recall that order issued by the
10 commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to the effect that the civilian
11 population should not be brought to barracks, but they should be taken
12 care of elsewhere. And does this not show that when the civilian
13 population was being brought in, they were actually being brought in in
14 order to find shelter from combat operations?
15 A. On the basis of this document, yes, that is so. That is in the
16 Dobrinja settlement, where there were very frequent combat operations in
17 1992. And being an inhabited area, it had quite a few inhabitants.
18 Q. Thank you. It states here:
19 "The tasks that we should insist on is prevention of crime,
20 irrespective of who the perpetrators may be."
21 And also on page 9 in Serbian and page 6 in English, it is
22 stated:
23 "Prevention and documenting of war crimes, with all available
24 means under the law, to document such activities, and the submission of
25 copies to the police," et cetera.
Page 5168
1 This document has been admitted. I just wanted us to see that
2 this shorter part was sent to the Presidency, but, of course, it would be
3 interpreted much more adequately if it was perceived in its entirety.
4 Do you agree that what was submitted before is insufficient in
5 relation to the entirety of the text?
6 A. What does it mean, the word "[B/C/S spoken]," "insufficient"?
7 Q. It means it is inadequate; it does not portray the matter at hand
8 in its totality.
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 18286.
11 18286, 65 ter. I'm afraid it's not -- well, it is that, but we do not
12 see the title page.
13 This is a document of the OTP, but there is something wrong with
14 the pages. Could we see the first page.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Minister, you can see the English variant, and I will read it
17 for you. The secretary of the government, Nedjeljko Lakic, is sending to
18 the Ministry of Justice, and he says:
19 "Attached, please find the operational programme of measures to
20 prevent social disruptions in conditions of a state of war, and we ask
21 you to submit to us specific remarks in the form of amendments,"
22 et cetera.
23 This is not the right document, although we will be needing this
24 one as well. It is 65 ter 18286. The English variant is okay, but not
25 the Serbian.
Page 5169
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As we are pressed for time, can we
3 see English page 12, please. It is item 23. This is not the document in
4 Serbian. This is a communication from the government to the Ministry of
5 Justice. And the English variant, the English version, is all right.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you remember having received this proposal of measures from
8 the government, and you probably considered it and responded to it? Here
9 in item 23, it reads:
10 "Operative programme of activities to secure the prerequisites
11 for the efficient functioning of the Internal Affairs Service."
12 And 24 is the Ministry of Justice. Actually, it is page 13 in
13 English.
14 Do you see this, Mr. Minister? Do you recall this document?
15 A. I do recall the document, but I do not see it here.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] English page 13, and Serbian
17 page 8. 5991 is the ERN number. The last digits: 5991. No, this is a
18 totally different document. This is not the document.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This, in Serbian, in B/C/S, is
20 actually about the staffing scheme.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the minister then be shown --
22 yes, now this is the document. This is all right in Serbian, but now we
23 do not have the English version, and the document which we had before was
24 the right one.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5170
1 Q. The Ministry of Justice is proposing here. You, too, made a few
2 proposals; the Law on Regular Courts, the Law on the Public Prosecutors'
3 Office, on the territorial organisation, the decision on the number of
4 judges.
5 Do you see all that on this page?
6 A. Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also see the next page in
8 Serbian and page number 14 in English, so both next pages, as it were.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This is item 24 continued. Then we have item 25: "Instructions
11 to Judicial Organs." Right. That they should decide cases by summary
12 procedure?
13 A. Yes. And that was to be done by the Ministry of Justice.
14 Q. This is what you sent amendments to, and you accepted it and then
15 returned it to the government; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Item 26 is about an agreement on the exchange of
18 prisoners of war with the other side, which is a governmental obligation,
19 not an obligation of the ministry. And 27, please read item 27 for us to
20 see what it is about.
21 And can we have the next page in English also.
22 A. 27:
23 "Nedjo Lakic is in charge of implementing this, and it is the
24 appointment of a state commission for the identification of crimes and
25 genocide against the civilian population and of victims of war."
Page 5171
1 Q. Does it refer to crimes against the Serbs only, or is it a
2 general provision?
3 A. It is a general provision.
4 Q. Does this differ from the Documentation Centre for the
5 Documenting of Crimes in the Federation? Does this refer to the
6 territory of Republika Srpska?
7 A. This refers to the territory of Republika Srpska.
8 Q. Thank you. This is about creating conditions for the
9 identification, establishment of crimes and genocide against the civilian
10 population, which does not automatically mean that there were such crimes
11 or such genocide, but it means that prerequisites were being put in place
12 to establish any such situations?
13 A. It was the appointment of a state commission to establish whether
14 there were any such instances.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 20 in Serbian and
16 page -- the next page in English. Page 20 in Serbian and 31 in English.
17 It is the last page in both cases. The last pages in both versions.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is an order to establish a state commission to investigate
20 extreme cases of theft of state and private property and other abuses.
21 It is a departmental -- inter-departmental commission made up of
22 representatives of the Ministry of the Interior, Ministry of Justice, and
23 the responsible department; and the agency responsible is the Secretariat
24 for the Legislation of the Government; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 5172
1 Q. Thank you. Would you say that this was part of the government's
2 efforts on the 17th of July for promoting the legal system; namely, the
3 security and the rule of law?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Can this be admitted?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D448, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Can we have 1D1900.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Minister, do you agree that the self-criticism of the state
13 organs was sometimes so extreme as to be on the verge of masochism or
14 mutual recriminations? Was this kind of responsibility or this kind of
15 impotence because of the existing infrastructure, a feeling of impotence,
16 was it something that led to these extreme cases of self-criticism?
17 A. I know that at government sessions there was criticism,
18 self-criticism, co-ordination of opinions, and everything else which
19 normally attends to the work of any state institution.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is a letter by the
21 minister of the interior --
22 JUDGE KWON: I think we have the translation for this.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mandic, you have the B/C/S version before you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 5173
1 Q. Do you agree that this is a letter by the minister of the
2 interior to the president -- to the prime minister, and can you tell us
3 what the first paragraph is about?
4 A. Stanisic is writing to the prime minister, Branko Djeric:
5 "Mr. Prime Minister, although as a member of the government, I
6 don't know how many times I've requested at sessions for a proposal of a
7 law or a similar enactment to be endorsed which would, in keeping with
8 International Law and International Law of War, channel the war
9 activities of the army, of groups and individuals, in order for those not
10 to be at variance with the sanctioned provisions of International Law,
11 and the consequences of which could resemble genocide or war crimes,
12 unfortunately, you have not done so to this very day, although I do
13 believe that this topic should have been on the agenda of the first next
14 governmental session."
15 Q. Thank you. Can you look further down. The whole page is, of
16 course, interesting, but we do not have the time.
17 A. "Precisely for the reason to disprove the existence of sanctioned
18 intentions and actions, at your proposal or initiative, a platform or
19 another document would have to be established from which it would stem a
20 clear and civilised option in order to put into practice what I believe
21 are certainly correct political objectives of the Serbian people,
22 whereas, at the same time, with the text of the platform or another
23 document, we should disassociate ourselves from all groups or individuals
24 who would have different intentions, whereby we would confirm that, as a
25 people, we should not be characterised with the epithet of a genocidal or
Page 5174
1 criminal nation."
2 Q. And then he goes on to say:
3 "I have to tell the prime minister that you did not work very
4 much towards the establishment of military courts," and so on and so
5 forth, "which has not been done to this very day, and that is why we have
6 so many perpetrators of criminal offences of different ilk, and these are
7 people who are not covered by the army and are also beyond the
8 responsibility of the civilian institutions."
9 Can you do this: "We are working on collecting ..."
10 A. I only have the first page.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the second page, the
12 following page in Serbian.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The underlined parts.
15 A. "We are working on collecting and documenting the criminal -- the
16 crimes of -- the criminal offence of war crimes, i.e., genocide,
17 irrespective of who the perpetrators are and what their ethnicity is."
18 Q. And the last paragraph.
19 A. "By letter, I shall inform you personally, the Presidency of the
20 Serbian Republic
21 of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, attached to which is working a
22 commission where we also have one of our members, of precisely the
23 foregoing issues."
24 Signed by Mico Stanisic, the 18th of July, 1992.
25 Q. Thank you. Is this already a well-advanced stage of the conflict
Page 5175
1 between Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Djeric?
2 A. This is not a personal conflict. This is a struggle of opinions
3 and a confrontation of position.
4 Q. Now, the fact that your professors are actually translating this
5 to the personal plane, is that -- that is another thing. Are you saying
6 that I actually favour the professors in the government?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D449, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise for today, Mr. Karadzic.
12 Tomorrow, we are sitting -- we are beginning at -- Mr. Mandic, do
13 you have something to say?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask you, Your Honour: How
15 many more hours will I be here?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You'll be done on Friday.
17 I hope that the Trial Chamber will --
18 JUDGE KWON: By the end of today, Mr. Karadzic has had 16 hours
19 and 15 minutes, which means he will have at least 3 hours and 45 minutes
20 in order to conclude his cross-examination in 20 hours, which was
21 originally allowed by the Trial Chamber. He's requesting some further
22 time, and then the Chamber will consider.
23 So tomorrow we'll be sitting in a slightly extended form, but in
24 total -- in average, the time for evidence is usually around four hours
25 and something, a bit less than that, so it seems inevitable you may need
Page 5176
1 to stay on Friday. I can't say for sure how long we will need on Friday.
2 We'll decide by the end of tomorrow's session.
3 There's one thing: Tomorrow, we originally planned to sit from
4 9.00 to 3.00, but given that at least two members of the Bench are
5 sitting in other cases, so although there may be not any sitting trial,
6 it's better to conclude as early as possible. And the Chamber inquired
7 of the Registry people whether it would be feasible to sit from 9.00 to
8 2.30, having only two half-an-hour breaks, and we received the positive
9 answers. So unless the parties object to that kind of scheduling, we'll
10 sit in that way: 9.00 to 2.30, two 30 minutes' break.
11 Thank you. Have a nice evening. I'll see you at 9.00 tomorrow
12 morning.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day
16 of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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