Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7812

 1                           Wednesday, 13 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.  Before we begin, the

 7     Chamber is aware that the accused has requested access to a note verbal

 8     filed in this case on the 8th of October, on a confidential basis, an ex

 9     parte basis.  The Chamber sees no reasons why the accused should not

10     receive a copy of that note verbal with the passport details of the

11     relevant witness redacted and therefore request the Registry to make such

12     a redacted copy available to him.

13             Let's continue your cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning to

15     everyone.

16                           WITNESS:  MIRZA SABLJICA [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sabljica.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   I hope I will simplify my questions today in order to receive yes

22     or no answers as much as possible so that you can travel and leave soon.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have in e-court

24     1D2571 so as that we finalise this portion that has to do with the

25     streets, or rather, the names of the streets.  1D2571.

Page 7813

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you agree -- do you agree, Mr. Sabljica, that Hamdije

 3     Kresevljacka [phoen] street, which is fourth from the bottom,

 4     was Jawaharlal Nehru Street?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Hamdije Kapidzica, yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

 8     tendered into evidence and finished with it.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.  Again, we received this

11     document about 25 minutes ago.  We're not entirely sure as to the

12     integrity of this particular web site.  We also note that it's not

13     visible on the screen at the moment, but at the bottom of this document

14     there is a -- actually, that's all right.  There's a reference to a first

15     name of a witness who is not protected, but we haven't had an opportunity

16     to check the integrity of this web site in any way, and with that caveat,

17     I leave it to Your Honours' discretion as to whether you wish to admit

18     it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will go to the weight or the probative value

20     at the end of the day, but I don't see any problem admitting this.  But

21     let me consult with my colleagues first.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D747, Your Honours.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7814

 1        Q.   If you remember, Mr. Sabljica, yesterday we discussed incident

 2     number 6 from G list of the 22nd of January, 1994, Alipasino Polje; is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have document

 6     that we saw yesterday on our screen which is 65 ter 09609.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   While we are waiting, can we both agree that none of the warring

 9     parties had silencers for mortars?

10        A.   I don't know about that.  I wasn't part of the crews working on

11     mortars, but let's say that it was not possible to hear the shells

12     falling.

13        Q.   But there is no such device that can be attached to the barrel of

14     the mortar?

15        A.   No, there isn't.

16        Q.   How far can one hear the outgoing fire for 82 and for 120

17     approximately?

18        A.   Do you mean how far you have to be from the firing position in

19     order to hear the shell being fired?

20        Q.   Yes.

21        A.   Well, I can tell you from my personal experience while I was in

22     the army at the beginning of the war.  It was very close, between 50 and

23     100 metres, and you can then hear the shell being fired.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I think that we need a different page from this one.

25     It's the report that you received in hard copy.  I need a photograph.

Page 7815

 1     Just give me a moment, please.  Page 2, that's what we have here -- no,

 2     that's page 1 but we need page 2.

 3             Do you still have this report with you?

 4        A.   You mean the hard copy?  No, I don't have it.  I can see it on

 5     the screen only.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us which shells landed there in this particular

 7     incident?

 8        A.   Two 82-millimetre shells and one 120-millimetre shell.

 9        Q.   Was that established by your team or did you receive this

10     information from someone else?

11        A.   Our team established the traces for the two 82s and the

12     information concerning the 120-millimetre shell were received from the

13     policemen and the witnesses, but the presumption was that it landed on a

14     roof.

15        Q.   Which roof?

16        A.   Of a building, that's the information we received.

17        Q.   So it did not create a crater in the ground; is that right?

18        A.   That's right.  We couldn't find its traces.

19        Q.   On what basis did they decide that it was 120-millimetres because

20     it did not land on the ground, but I suppose that it exploded above the

21     ground?

22        A.   It allegedly landed on the roof of a skyscraper and exploded

23     there; that was the information that we had.  I believe that another

24     shell fell in the park on the grass, but as far as I can remember we did

25     not carry out an on-site investigation of that particular incident.

Page 7816

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can I ask you to tell us if you saw the photographs

 2     of that site, have they ever been made, and why they are missing from the

 3     file?

 4        A.   I did see the photograph and I know that they were made by the

 5     scene of crime officer.  I'm not going to tell his name because I don't

 6     know if he's a protected witness.  He worked with the late Stankov and me,

 7     he fixed the traces of the shell, and he prepared the whole set of

 8     documents.  I believe that in the previous case where I testified, the

 9     photographs were attached.

10        Q.   Was there a photograph of the shell that fell between the streets

11     at Klare Cetkin and Rade Koncar?

12        A.   I don't think that the 120-millimetre shell was not photographed.

13     It landed on grass.  The only ones that were processed were the two that

14     fell on the asphalt surface.

15        Q.   As a ballistics expert, do you believe that in order to establish

16     the direction and the angle, the one that landed in the park would have

17     been more suitable for that purpose rather than the other two?

18        A.   I think it's the opposite because the traces on a hard surface

19     are more visible, particularly with regard to shrapnel.  I explained that

20     yesterday.  Craters can look differently, but you can apply a different

21     method if you find an unexploded tail fin or the fuse of the shell on the

22     spot.  In most cases the shell fell on hard concrete surfaces, and in

23     that cases we applied the method of the central axis which was a more

24     accurate one.  So we didn't do this one and I don't think there were any

25     casualties caused by the one that fell in the park.

Page 7817

 1        Q.   So you think that was the reasons.  So I think that the furrow

 2     would be very helpful in order to determine the angle and the direction?

 3        A.   I fully agree with you because this method is applied on the

 4     battleground as well because the expert there can very simply and very

 5     accurately establish the origin of fire by applying this so-called tunnel

 6     method that you mentioned.

 7        Q.   I don't know if this was done by your team or by some other team,

 8     but it was established that this shell that fell on Cetinjska street came

 9     from the west from Nedzarici from the institute for the blind.  Does that

10     mean that this westerly direction has the bearing of around 270?

11        A.   You mean with regard to north, is that what you mean?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   I cannot tell you exactly at this moment.  The report says only

14     that it came from the westerly direction, from Nedzarici and the

15     Institute for the Blind.

16        Q.   Let's look at page 1, paragraph 3.  It says:

17             "Upon inspection of the site on the Cetinjska Street and the

18     surface, an existence of a central crater was established with the

19     ellipsis axis of 15 and 20 centimetres and the crater about 6

20     centimetres.  The central part of the crater stretches ellipse-wise into

21     star-shaped traces, this ellipse being 110 and 180 centimetres long.  The

22     longer sides of the ellipses run east-west, the distance from the centre

23     of the crater to the west being longer.  Given that the axis of a falling

24     shell forms an angle of less than 90 degrees ..."

25             So we can all see this now.  Says without reading the whole

Page 7818

 1     paragraph, the penultimate sentence reads:

 2             "This direction is where Nedzarici is located, i.e., the

 3     Institute for the Blind.  One person was killed by the impact of the

 4     shell ..."

 5             And so on and so forth.

 6             So it was established that in this direction the institute was

 7     located which means that -- and let's look at the previous sentence which

 8     says:

 9             "On the basis of the traces visible on the asphalt road surface

10     where the shell landed and the shapes of the visible traces and the

11     traces left by blast, it is possible to conclude that the shell was an

12     82-millimetre mortar shell fired from a westerly direction.  This

13     direction is where Nedzarici is located, i.e., the Institute for the

14     Blind."

15             Isn't it true that it wasn't established from where the shell

16     came, that only a general westerly direction was established, where the

17     Institute for the Blind in Nedzarici is located?

18        A.   That's true.  I said yesterday that by applying the methods that

19     we had at our disposal, we were not able to establish the exact place of

20     the origin of fire.  We only gave a general direction which involved

21     Nedzarici and the Institute for the Blind.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let me remind you then yesterday we established and

23     in this document it says that the westerly direction or a little bit

24     towards north-west, that wouldn't then constitute 270, the bearing should

25     be slightly different; is that right?

Page 7819

 1        A.   West-north-west, let me say that that's this slight deviation and

 2     it indicates Nedzarici and that area.

 3        Q.   But do you remember that on that map we saw yesterday we saw that

 4     Nedzarici were a little bit to the south and a little bit to the north

 5     were dormitory and the Oslobodjenje building?

 6        A.   We marked that on that map yesterday, yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             Further on someone from that team comes to a conclusion.  You

 9     mentioned that person's name.  As far as the shell that fell in the park

10     between Klare Cetkin and Rade Koncar, it can be established that it was

11     fired to the west of Nedzarici and the Institute for the Blind.  That is

12     all contained in that report; isn't that right?  I can give you the line?

13        A.   I know it's on the next page, that is written there, it's the

14     last paragraph.

15        Q.   Well, actually we can skip some questions because you've already

16     spoken about that.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have that map again, the one

18     that Mr. Sabljica marked yesterday.  746.  P746.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D746.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, if you don't know exactly where the line was we

22     will have to call up another document.  Just tell us whether you know

23     exactly where separation line was here, and if you don't know then we're

24     going to call up another document.

25        A.   I really don't know where it was exactly, it was somewhere around

Page 7820

 1     the student dormitories, around the Oslobodjenje building.  There were

 2     these barracks behind the Oslobodjenje building, but I think that that

 3     was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.  That is already

 4     Nedzarici.  As far as this theatre of war is concerned, I did not really

 5     go there very often except for occasional on-site investigations.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I remember witness answered that question and said

 7     that which building was whose control at the time.  Let's move on.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  But it is

 9     important for me to establish where the line of separation was.

10             So could we then have this map, section 9, please.  65 ter

11     09390C, section 9.  It's the same section but the separation lines are

12     marked there.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you see that area, Mr. Sabljica, over here by number 86 on the

15     right-hand side?

16        A.   I see it.  The student dormitories like two Ys, the Oslobodjenje

17     building, Nedzarici, I see it.

18        Q.   Can you mark on this map where the Institute for the Blind is?

19        A.   I'll try.  I think that it is the building marked number 13.

20     See, I put a circle around it.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you mark it some way, say B.

22        A.   B, okay.

23        Q.   B for blind.

24        A.   Okay.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the line of separation is quite near to this

Page 7821

 1     and that fire could be registered by the other side -- actually, the

 2     soldiers of the other warring party, that is?

 3        A.   I can say that the line of separation is nearby.  Now, you're

 4     saying that it can be registered as having been fired from either side.

 5     The only thing I can say is that the line of separation is nearby, and I

 6     repeat that our reports never dealt with that, who fired the shell, from

 7     which positions, et cetera, because we did not have proper methods for

 8     establishing that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just place the date -- actually, can you mark

10     Oslobodjenje and the student dormitories on this map as well quite simply

11     so that the participants can know where they are whenever they look at

12     the map?

13        A.   Yes, SD, student dormitories.  And over here it's the

14     Oslobodjenje building, O.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you sign it, can you put the date.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D748, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you agree that one cannot see the Institute for the Blind from

22     that site?  There is no visibility, bearing in mind how high the

23     buildings are, the ones that you're familiar with?  Something must have

24     been interpreted the wrong way.  Let's see.

25        A.   I have to answer the question.

Page 7822

 1        Q.   I have to repeat it for the transcript.  Do you agree -- or

 2     rather, what can you say from the actual site, is there visual contact

 3     with the Institute for Blind Children, bearing in mind the buildings that

 4     we are both very familiar with, the buildings at Alipasino Polje?

 5        A.   There is no visual contact.  It is impossible to see that

 6     particular site.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2245.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree that this kind of visual contact would be possible

10     from the Oslobodjenje building, especially from the northern student

11     dormitory?

12        A.   I disagree.  It is very hard to see that as well from the student

13     dormitory and the Oslobodjenje building as far as I am familiar with that

14     part of town.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2245 then.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Are you familiar with this complex of buildings?  Can you tell us

18     what this is?

19        A.   Vojnicko Polje.  It's not Alipasino.

20        Q.   Where is this neighbourhood in view of this line of the incident?

21        A.   Right by the separation line.  That is to say it is very close to

22     the institute for blind children and Nedzarici, say 200 or 300 metres

23     away from it, not more than that.

24        Q.   Thank you.  To the east of this is that complex of buildings, one

25     number 8 and then the other number 8 where the incident occurred, the

Page 7823

 1     so-called building of the neighbourhood of Alipasino Polje; right?

 2     Moving from the west, the Institute for Blind Children, Vojnicko Polje,

 3     the buildings that we see, that is, and then one number 8 of Alipasino

 4     Polje, and then the other number 8 of Alipasino Polje where the incident

 5     actually occurred; right?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, I agree with you.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This doesn't have to be marked,

 9     right?  But I would like to have it admitted -- or actually, should it be

10     marked?  I would like this picture to be admitted.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D749, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Should Mr. Sabljica initial it or

14     something?  No.

15             JUDGE KWON:  No, I don't think so.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2246, can we have that now.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Are you familiar with this building?  Is that the Institute for

19     Blind Children?

20        A.   Yes, that's the building of the Institute for Blind Children in

21     Nedzarici.

22        Q.   Do you need the map or can you confirm that in this direction

23     that is shown by the arrow that Alipasino Polje is there, that is to say

24     that neighbourhood to the east of this in the photograph?

25        A.   I don't need a map.  I can confirm that.  I know that Alipasino

Page 7824

 1     Polje is in that direction.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree as regards that map you saw that

 3     practically in the very corner the Institute for Blind Children is

 4     semi-encircled, say about 300 degrees, that is to say on three out of

 5     four sides it is exposed to the line of separation?  Let's not return the

 6     map if you do recall where it is in that corner?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, I remember.  You are right.  I agree.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

10     microphones please be switched off.  We cannot hear the speakers.  Thank

11     you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Would you agree that it would be unusual to place mortars

14     someplace like that, two at that 120 and 80, and to have them fire from

15     the line itself?

16        A.   I could agree with that statement as well; however, I would like

17     to note that we mentioned the Institute for Blind Children as one of the

18     prominent features in Nedzarici.  And again I'm saying that we could not

19     say with any certainty where the shell had been fired from.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this photograph be admitted.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D750.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Have any of the tail fins been found?  Do you remember -- did you

25     remember hearing about that from those who had arrived before you?  Were

Page 7825

 1     there any tail fins; and if so, from which calibre?

 2        A.   I really don't remember that.  If that's what's written up in our

 3     findings, that we had found tail fins, then we found them.  That is

 4     always written if so.  If it is not written there, then that was not the

 5     case.  I really cannot remember.

 6        Q.   In that report it says that they were found.  One stabiliser

 7     120-millimetres in line 8 and those of 82 were not found.  So now it's a

 8     bit of a problem.  How can one conclude that there was 82-millimetres as

 9     well?  Is there any certainty in that respect?

10        A.   If it is written that such traces were found, then that is

11     correct.  As for mortar shells of 82 millimetres, that is stated clearly

12     in the report that was signed by the late Stankov, that on the basis of

13     the traces of destruction and looking at the axes of the irregular

14     ellipse that was created when the shell fell on the asphalt surface, we

15     could establish that that was the case, that it involved that mortar.  I

16     think that that is what is written there.  You read that a few moments

17     ago.

18        Q.   Thank you, yes.  It was established there that there's a central

19     crater and that the length of the ellipses were 15 and 20 centimetres and

20     that the axis was between 110 and 180 centimetres; right?

21        A.   Yes, those are the two irregular ellipses that are formed in the

22     centre of the crater, the thing that I drew yesterday, there's a smaller

23     one and the bigger one, and the bigger one assists you in establishing

24     the origin of fire; that is to say, the direction from which the shells

25     had arrived.

Page 7826

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Just a bit of patience, please.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We can skip a certain number of questions now.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have D09606, page 2.

 6     The first one should be identified, so the 65 ter number is 09606.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you tell us roughly whether you remember how wide Cetinjska

 9     and Klare Cetkin are, those two streets?

10        A.   The width of the streets?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   The standard width in Sarajevo, two lanes for cars, although both

13     are one-way streets.  However, there is a round-about after that --

14     anyway, it's safe enough for two cars to pass by and also there's a

15     sidewalk for pedestrians.

16        Q.   It's about 6 metres; right?

17        A.   Approximately.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 2 of this

19     document.  Something seems to be wrong.  1D2 -- can we have 02161.  I

20     can't see the ERN number on this photograph and that is a difficulty.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you remember how these streets are orientated?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the next page of this document

24     actually.  Now we see the ERN number.  The next page of this document.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7827

 1        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Sabljica, Cetinjska is what, west-east,

 2     what?  Do you remember how they are orientated, these streets?

 3        A.   Viewed from this vantage point, I think it is north-south.  It

 4     goes along a semicircle by that 8, so it is the direction in which the

 5     vehicles are, north-south.

 6        Q.   Do you remember this photograph and this actual site?

 7        A.   I remember this actual site.  I'm looking at the photograph now

 8     and, yes, I remember the site, I remember this place.

 9        Q.   Do you see the red car there on the right-hand side, the one that

10     is next to this row of parked vehicles?

11        A.   That's a red Golf, so you're not talking about the one next to

12     the pedestrian on the other side.

13        Q.   Yes, I am talking about the one that is on the street.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Do you see the other red car and you see where the sidewalk

16     starts, so we can see now how wide the street is, and it roughly

17     corresponds to what you had said, say 6 metres?

18        A.   Well, that would be it, that standard width.  It's not some kind

19     of a big street.  It's a standard street for normal traffic within a

20     neighbourhood.

21        Q.   In view of what we see now in the middle of the photograph, do

22     you think that this could be actually 7 metres wide?

23        A.   Well, since you see a parking-lot on one side of the street along

24     the driveway, possibly.  It's my rough estimate based on the photograph.

25        Q.   Could you on this photograph - and that's a contemporaneous

Page 7828

 1     photograph from the time of the events, 22nd January; right?  It's in

 2     evidence.

 3        A.   Yes, that's a photograph from that time.

 4        Q.   On that photograph could you mark the traces and the longer axis

 5     of the central crater?

 6        A.   I couldn't.  I can't even see where the shell fell.  I can't see

 7     anything on this photograph because this is a broader view of the site.

 8        Q.   I apologise to the interpreters.

 9             Do you see this arrow indicating the crater?  It's not very

10     clearly visible but it's there.

11        A.   You mean this black arrow?

12        Q.   Yes.

13        A.   I don't know if that arrow indicates the crater.  Is there any

14     text under the photograph that would help?

15        Q.   If we raise this sheet a bit, perhaps we could see the text under

16     the photograph.  It says the same as in the previous photograph.  Can we

17     get the previous photograph, number 45, to see the text, not the photo.

18     It's the same photograph from a different angle.  Can you see the site of

19     explosion of the shell in Cetinjska Street near number 3?

20        A.   I can see it.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we revert to the next page

22     again, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   On the snow to the right of this photograph, do you see any

25     fragments?

Page 7829

 1        A.   I can see the centre of the explosion here, I will mark it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could zoom-in a bit more

 3     on the crater.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, why don't we zoom-in first before the witness

 5     marks.  Why don't we zoom-in a bit further.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Right.  Now, may I ask you to mark the centre of the crater and

 8     the longer axis.

 9        A.   This is the centre and the longer axis is this.

10        Q.   Thank you.  May I ask you to write the date and your initials.

11        A.   I'm done.

12        Q.   You did not make this photograph, somebody else did and gave it

13     to you?

14        A.   As I said, the scenes of crime officer made this photograph and

15     it's part of our documentation together with our report.  Photo

16     documentation is made by scenes of crime officers.

17        Q.   Do you agree that there is a certain perspective here in view of

18     the distance from which the photograph was taken?

19        A.   You mean in terms of approach to photography?  Yes, there is a

20     perspective.

21        Q.   Do we agree that perspective makes it more difficult to establish

22     direction?

23        A.   I agree, but a direction is not established based on photographs;

24     that's also a very important fact.  We did not use photographs to

25     determine directions, we used exact methods on the site; that is to say,

Page 7830

 1     firm traces on surfaces, not photographs.  Working with photographs and

 2     drawing on photographs can give you completely different results.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have this photograph

 5     admitted.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D751, Your Honours.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you use three or more sticks in this case as well?  Can you

10     remember which method was used?

11        A.   The same, the same method of the central axis was used to

12     determine alignment.

13        Q.   Did anyone else investigate this incident to the best of your

14     knowledge?

15        A.   I wouldn't know.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we revert to the previous

17     photograph, the same document but number 45.  The ending of the ERN

18     number is 745.  Could we zoom-in, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please look at this photograph and draw the longer axis

21     on this photograph.  Do you see traces of fragmentation on the snow?

22        A.   I can mark the centre of the explosion here as indicated by the

23     arrow, but it would be difficult with the axis because I'm telling you

24     again it's very easy to make a mistake doing that on a photograph.

25        Q.   But do you agree that on the snow you can see this rose shape,

Page 7831

 1     the traces of fragments on the snow?

 2        A.   I can only see this aura against the -- on the snow, this halo

 3     shape in black.

 4        Q.   Would it have been better if the snow had been cleared before the

 5     photograph was made because the fragments would have left traces on the

 6     Tarmac?

 7        A.   Yes, it would have been better.  I believe there are photographs

 8     taken after the site was cleared and cleaned and sticks were put in.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Chamber ask perhaps if

10     photographs are available with the snow cleared?  We haven't found them.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has no clue.

12             Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will talk to the other side and

14     ask for them because we really need everything available for each

15     incident.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Did anyone inform you that the UNPROFOR also investigated the

18     same incident?

19        A.   I wasn't informed and my team wasn't informed, but I know they

20     almost often did.  It was part of their job.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this photograph be received as

22     well although it isn't marked?  Or perhaps it is already admitted.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, it's part of Prosecution Exhibit P1697.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now get 65 ter 10558, to

Page 7832

 1     see that UNPROFOR report on the same incident.  10588.  I made a mistake.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I say that you know English rather well.  Could you look at this

 4     page on the right-hand side where the UNPROFOR describes the elements of

 5     the same incident?

 6        A.   You mean this shelling report?

 7        Q.   Yes, yes.  Do you agree it says there were three shells and the

 8     other elements?  Can you see they indicate that all three shells were 120

 9     millimetres as well as the angle of fall, the angle of approach --

10        A.   Maximum range.  I see all this.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what this report suggests?

12        A.   I don't know what it suggests since this was done by someone from

13     the expert UNPROFOR team.  I can only see they suggest there were three

14     shells, all three of 120 millimetres.  They established angles of

15     approach and angles of fall, and they indicate that the maximum range

16     according to their estimate is between 2.000 and 3.000 metres.

17        Q.   Is there any difference between your report, the report of the BH

18     MUP and this report?

19        A.   Obviously.  They only mention 120-millimetre shells and not 82

20     millimetres.  And they also express their findings in mils and they did

21     not determine directions according to north-south or west-east, but the

22     description of events is the same.

23        Q.   So the differences are in calibre and the possible direction of

24     origin?

25        A.   I could not say anything accurate about the direction because

Page 7833

 1     it's not indicated, but I can see that there is a difference in calibre

 2     because they only mentioned three shells of 120.

 3        Q.   What about these mils, do you see a major difference there or

 4     should we go deeper into analysing this document?

 5        A.   Well, I'd like to see the next page because they may have written

 6     something more.

 7        Q.   You did not measure the angle of fall.  They measured it as 1100?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The angle of approach is between 4.200 mils and 4.250?

10        A.   We only determined it relative to the azimuth of a normal compass

11     and 1 mil is about 17 degrees so you need to calculate this as far as I

12     remember the practice.

13        Q.   Did you establish the weather conditions?  They say it was foggy

14     and the temperature was 5 degrees centigrade?

15        A.   Yes, this is a standard form of an UNPROFOR report.  We never

16     mentioned in our reports the weather conditions, whether it was windy or

17     foggy or snowing.

18        Q.   Do you agree that 1 degree is 17 mils?

19        A.   Yes, that's what I said a moment ago.  In fact, it's 16.85.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We don't have time to go deeper into this, but I'd

21     like to have this document received.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The witness wanted to see the next page.

23             Would you like to see it now?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No need now.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 7834

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, we won't insist on this

 2     because there's no time to go deeper into analysis.  The fact is there is

 3     a difference in direction and if we had time I would go into it.  But

 4     never mind.  On some other occasion when we have someone from the

 5     UNPROFOR perhaps.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D752, Your Honours.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I just note at this stage before we go any

 9     further that the translation in English -- the word thousandths should

10     actually read mils, m-i-l-s.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now get 1D02440.  The

13     Defence expert team visited this site on the 18th September 2010.  It's

14     in Klare Cetkin Street which is now called Bosanska Street.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you know this place?

17        A.   Looking at this photograph it could be anywhere in the city of

18     Sarajevo because I can't see the buildings around, so I couldn't even

19     tell you in which part of town it is based on this photograph.

20        Q.   Do you see that this crater here is right next to the pavement.

21     One bit of the pavement even had to be replaced and repaired.

22        A.   That's clearly visible.

23        Q.   Do you agree that these outer fragments reach almost to the

24     middle of the street?

25        A.   Yes.  Relative to the centre of the crater you can see it going

Page 7835

 1     halfway to the street.

 2        Q.   Could you draw the longer axis based on this photo?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if the witness is not able to confirm

 4     what place that this is about, there's no point going further,

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We should have a total

 7     view in order to locate it, but never mind.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   These outer fragments are almost 3 metres away?

10        A.   Looking at this photograph, what you say seems to be correct.

11     But as the President says, I cannot even determine where this is so it

12     means nothing if I draw a central axis and mark the traces because the

13     impact of this shell could have been anywhere in town.  Do you

14     understand?  You can't tell based on this picture.

15        Q.   I understand completely.  We failed to provide a total picture to

16     locate this place, but we won't have this admitted until someone comes to

17     identify it.  Correct.

18             After the break we shall try to find a total view of this place

19     and then we can deal with the photograph.  Can I ask you now to try and

20     recollect Alipasino Polje was in the area of responsibility of which

21     brigade of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  That was your right-hand

22     neighbour.

23        A.   These names of the brigades changed names four or five times.  I

24     really couldn't tell you which one was in Alipasino Polje.

25        Q.   But do you know that the 5th Motorised Brigade was later renamed

Page 7836

 1     155th and that was the -- deployed in Dobrinja?

 2        A.   Yes, I know that they were in Dobrinja.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that they always had minimum 3.000 and maximum 5.000

 4     men?  We can find that in the documents from the BH Army.

 5        A.   I wasn't aware of that figure.  I thought there were more of

 6     them.  Since this was military information I had no access to it.

 7        Q.   Can we now deal with incident number 4 from G list involving the

 8     football-match that took place on the 1st of June, 1993.  Do you remember

 9     that incident?

10        A.   I wasn't working in the police at that time.  If you recall the

11     first day of my examination, I know that this incident was investigated

12     after the war along with Mr. Hecke and the late Medjedovic.  We analysed

13     the craters a couple of years after the incident because on the 1st of

14     June I was still a member of the Army of BH.  I don't remember it.  I

15     only heard stories.  Based on our investigation, the only thing what we

16     did was to demonstrate to the ICTY investigator how we determined the

17     direction.

18        Q.   That's right.  So that was conducted on the 21st of November,

19     1995.  Do you remember what happened on that day?

20        A.   The Dayton Accords were signed.

21        Q.   That's correct, but that's also my family's patron saint's day.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have document

23     09970.  This patron saint's day is the Saint Archangel Michael who has

24     been celebrated by all faiths.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P1699.

Page 7837

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is this the first page of your report?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.  That's part of the photo file compiled as you can

 5     see by Mr. Medjedovic and I.

 6        Q.   In attendance were witness Refik Sokolar and representatives of

 7     the OTP Jan van Hecke; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us something about this Mr. Refik Sokolar.

10        A.   I don't know.  You're asking me now but I can't remember him at

11     all.  It says here that he was a witness and I suppose that he was there

12     when the incident took place.

13        Q.   Do you think it's acceptable that he was a police officer from

14     Dobrinja who was close to the explosion in the queue for water on

15     Spasenija Babovic street?

16        A.   I don't know.  Really, this is the first time that I'm hearing

17     about this from you.

18        Q.   On the 4th of February, 1995, he was wounded in this incident and

19     he also was present during this incident.  Don't you find it a little bit

20     odd for a police officer to be present during two similar incidents?

21             JUDGE KWON:  This is not for him to answer that question.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now move to page 3 of this

23     document.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you please cast a glance on what Mr. Medjedovic and you wrote

Page 7838

 1     here as the main authors of this document, so I hope this will refresh

 2     your memory and then I will proceed with my question.  Can you say in

 3     paragraph 5 --

 4        A.   "According to the witness Refik Sokolar, two artillery shells

 5     fell on the parking-lot at 1000 hours on the 1st of June ...  while a

 6     soccer game was taking place ..."

 7             Et cetera, et cetera.  I see that the name of this witness is

 8     mentioned here.

 9        Q.   Can you please look at the whole page now.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please ask Mr. Gaynor because

11     we are going to work with hard copies to provide those because this

12     statement starts from 043658 and also there's our pages that belong as an

13     integral part of this report.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  As it happens, I do have an unmarked hard copy.  I

16     would be happy to give it over.  That's not to say, I wish to set a

17     precedent in this regard.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can work with both the screen

20     and this other thing, but then it will be too small and we will not be

21     able to see anything.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you remember the size of the football ground or football-pitch

24     where this match was played?

25        A.   I don't think that we measured it, but let's assume that this is

Page 7839

 1     a parking-lot.  I don't know the exact size.  I wouldn't like to

 2     second-guess.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have on our screens

 4     1D2569.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Was there any other playground designated as such close or next

 7     to the parking-lot as far as you can recall?

 8        A.   Well, there was a heating plant, and I don't know whether there

 9     was any other playground.  I honestly cannot remember.  This was taking

10     place on this parking-lot close to the heating plant and the

11     street - what's it called?

12        Q.   Is that the location?

13        A.   This is the contemporaneous photograph taken recently?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   I cannot say.  If I can see the heating plant nearby, then I can

16     confirm because we wrote in our report that the heating plant is

17     north-west from the playground.

18        Q.   Can you see the heating plant here?

19        A.   No, you cannot.  You can see it in the photo file that we

20     prepared.  It's a white building and it's a heating plant situated in

21     Dobrinja.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the previous

23     document so that we can deal with these photographs.  So that was 09970

24     and I think that we need pages 4 and 5.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7840

 1        Q.   In your statement of the 20th of June, 2001, we'll see it later,

 2     Ismet Fazlic, the referee, said that the pitch was made of concrete and

 3     the size was 30 by 15 metres.  Does that correspond to what you know?

 4        A.   I don't know anything about it and I don't know who this referee

 5     was.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 65 ter 10042, page

 7     3.  We'll keep the photographs and then on the right-hand side

 8     photograph -- on the right-hand side of the screen we need 10042.  Page

 9     3.  That's the statement of Ismet Fazlic.  Now page 3, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It says on page 1 that he was the referee during that game.

12     Let's look at paragraph 4, line 4 from the top.  It says that the pitch

13     was made of concrete approximately 30 by 15 metres.  In the half of the

14     pitch where the shell detonated, all the players from both team were

15     gathered except for the goal keeper from the other side.  The spectators

16     were also gathered at that end.

17        A.   I don't know why you're asking me about this incident.  I was

18     with the police at the time -- I wasn't with the police at the time, so I

19     think you should ask him to confirm and corroborate this.

20        Q.   I agree.  I just wanted to establish the size of this parking-lot

21     that served as a football-pitch on that day.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at these

23     photographs and close-up.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   According to your recollection, is that part of the investigation

Page 7841

 1     material?

 2        A.   Yes.  You can see this building east of the pitch and then to the

 3     west you can see the white building of the heating plant, and this is

 4     this parking-lot where we conducted our on-site investigation.

 5        Q.   Which of the two photographs is relevant?

 6        A.   They're both relevant.  It's a general view which indicates the

 7     location of the heating plant and these other buildings.  So this is a

 8     general view of the site.  And then we use the photographs in order to

 9     explain in more detail the methodology that we applied.

10        Q.   In which of these two photographs can we see the impact spot?

11        A.   Number 2 shows the impact location much better.  Now you can see

12     this rose, the central crater, and you can see an officer or a soldier

13     standing there in the corner.  If you wish me, I can put a circle around

14     the place of impact.

15        Q.   If you would be so kind.  The place of impact and the longer

16     axis.

17        A.   So this is the impact place, but based on this photograph it is

18     difficult to indicate the axis.  But I suppose that this is the longer

19     axis.  Although we again have the perspective in the photo as you said

20     before, which makes it difficult to determine the origin of fire of

21     shells.  This is a totally unreliable method for that.

22        Q.   Are there any photographs in the investigation file that can show

23     these elements?

24        A.   Yes, I have hard copies of the photographs that portray close-ups

25     of the site.

Page 7842

 1        Q.   Can you indicate the orientation, or rather, indicate north,

 2     west, east, and south with respect to the heating plant?

 3        A.   So the north would be approximately in this direction because the

 4     heating plant is north-west of the playground.  So judging from north it

 5     is over 100 degrees of bearing when you determine the direction from

 6     which the shell arrived, and this is consistent with our report.  Since

 7     there were no war operations at the time, it was possible to conduct an

 8     on-site investigation according to a proper police standard without

 9     fearing any incident taking place.

10        Q.   Was that a problem that this took place two or three years later?

11        A.   Well, three and a half years, I would agree with you, one has to

12     take into consideration a series of circumstances that led to that

13     decision.  But don't ask me about that.

14        Q.   Could you please initial this photograph -- but according to what

15     you have drawn here it seems that on north-east rather than north-west is

16     where the heating plant is located.

17        A.   It's on the north-west.  Maybe I marked it wrongly, but I cannot

18     draw any other conclusions on the basis of this photograph.  But

19     nevertheless, I will sign it and put the date.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the next page

21     which will show the rose of the impact place much better.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do so after admitting this one.  This will be

23     Exhibit D753.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you have any explanation whether this match was played on the

Page 7843

 1     playground or on the parking-lot?

 2        A.   As I understood it, they played the game on the parking-lot.  So

 3     you can see it in the photograph itself, and this is what this referee

 4     referred to 30 by 15 metres.  This is his assessment as to the size, so

 5     that was an asphalt surface on which we worked.  I can tell you only that

 6     much.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, these are the photographs that you found three

 8     and a half years later and you made markings with a white chalk?

 9        A.   Yes, photograph 3 follows photograph number 2, where one can see

10     more clearly the blast traces on the surface, and this measuring band

11     shows the dimension of these regular ellipses and on the photograph

12     beneath it we use the chalk to mark the poles and we used the sticks as I

13     explained yesterday, and I explained to the Chamber yesterday how we

14     proceeded.

15        Q.   So this is oriented towards the north?

16        A.   Yes.  You can see north and you can see this reddish stick which

17     indicates the direction from which the shell arrived, which according to

18     us is 110 degrees bearing.  And this is what is stated in our report.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Can we zoom out so that we can see both pictures.

20             Mr. Sabljica, are we seeing the same crater from the same

21     direction?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the same crater from the

23     same direction; however, the measure band has been moved and as you can

24     see it's above the sticks and it depicts the north.  It is not used as a

25     measuring band now.  It is an aid, as it were, to indicate where the

Page 7844

 1     north is.  The view is the same, but in number 4 it's more of a close-up

 2     from a photography point of view.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             If it is convenient, we will take a break now for 20 minutes.

 5     We'll resume at 10.40.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.21 a.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             In respect of the earlier photo, could we please see now 1D2567.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We owe you the -- this is not the document I meant.  1D2576,

13     1D2576, it should be a photo, and it is something that has to do with the

14     earlier case, the Alipasino Polje that we owe you still.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, would you agree with me that this is the spot and

18     that below the tree on the wall we can see that there is a plaque which

19     is actually a memorial plaque to the victims?

20        A.   Yes, we can see that memorial plaque and that is the spot.

21        Q.   Would you please put a circle around the memorial plaque.

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   For all of you in the courtroom, this is the incident 6 on the G

24     list.

25        A.   I will put an SP, "spomen-ploce," memorial plaque, next to this.

Page 7845

 1        Q.   Would you now please just mark -- indicate the portion of the

 2     sidewalk which has been replaced.

 3        A.   This is it.  Here, I'll write a T for sidewalk, "trotoar" in

 4     B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Would you please date and put your signature on this document.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, before he does so Mr. Karadzic just asked him

 9     if this was the spot.  Perhaps it would be better at this stage to

10     clarify which particular spot this refers to because there are three

11     shells involved in this incident.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sabljica, can you answer the question?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I assume that this is the

14     place where the children who were sledding were killed in the

15     Klare Cetkin Street, what it used to be called, and this is the only

16     place in Alipasino Polje where there is a memorial plaque.  So I believe

17     that that is that place.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that this is -- can you recognise,

20     actually, that this is a photo taken from a different angle as compared

21     to the earlier photo that I showed you that you said you couldn't really

22     recognise it and that it could be any place anywhere in the city?

23        A.   Well, could we please --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we don't have to look at the

Page 7846

 1     other photo.  I can see that it's the same place.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted as Exhibit D754.

 3             And would you like to bring back the photo, 1D2440?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but before that I would like

 5     to also tender another photo.  That's the photo taken from outside this

 6     building, 1D2577 that was.  I would like to tender that one into evidence

 7     as well.  1D2577, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Sir, can you now recognise the heating plant at Alipasino Polje

10     and this same spot, a portion of the sidewalk that had been replaced and

11     also the pavement that was repaired?

12        A.   Yes, I do, but now it's taken from a different angle.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me that this photo was taken from outside

14     the building where -- bearing the memorial plaque?

15        A.   Yes, I do agree based on the replacement of the sidewalk I could

16     agree with that.

17        Q.   Would you agree with me that in relation to the major axis, or

18     rather, the angle of approach, the heating plant is to the north-west?

19        A.   As far as I can recall, I mentioned the heating plant in relation

20     to the other case, the Dobrinja case.  I did not mention the heating

21     plant in relation to this particular incident.

22        Q.   Yes, but there is -- the heating plant is there?

23        A.   Yes, it is, but it wasn't relevant to this incident as far as I

24     can recall.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now please tell us whether this measuring

Page 7847

 1     band was placed in the way that you would place the band to indicate the

 2     major axis?

 3        A.   Yes, but we did mark all the traces and based on the photograph

 4     it is my assumption that this could be indicating the direction from

 5     which the projectile had come in.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please put your signature and date on this

 7     document.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  That's not necessary.  We will admit this,

 9     Exhibit D755.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness just please

11     mark -- could he just mark the outer-most pockmarks, the fragment traces,

12     and then we can go back to the photograph.  So can he just sort of put a

13     circle around the farthest marks.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what we can see in the

15     photo at least.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please sign

19     this document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just for reference, could you circle the power-plant

21     just to be clear.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean this white band, the

23     central axis?

24             JUDGE KWON:  No, I don't know.  You said power-plant is visible

25     from this picture.  I don't know what it is.

Page 7848

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 2        Q.   Heating plant, the heating plant.

 3        A.   Oh, I see.  Here, T for "toplana," heating plant.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you could put the date your signature, and then

 5     we will admit it as Exhibit D755.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, no objection to the admission of this

 7     photograph or the previous photographs.  I simply want to note that these

 8     were made available to the Prosecution at 10.40 a.m. today, which is

 9     about 12 minutes ago.  I don't know of any reason why these could not

10     have been notified to the Prosecution at the commencement of the

11     cross-examination of this witness.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.  When was the photo 2440 disclosed to you?

13     Which the witness was not able to confirm when shown.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  That one was on the list --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Exactly.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  That one was on the list which was made available at

17     the commencement of cross-examination.

18             JUDGE KWON:  These two pictures could have been disclosed at the

19     same time then?

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll note that.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have again the

25     photo marked as 1D25440, 1D02440 -- but for your information we did not

Page 7849

 1     want to offer a lot of photographs here.  But as the witness could not

 2     confirm the general area because the photo was a close-up, as it were,

 3     that's the only reason that we also offered these photographs into

 4     evidence.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I can understand that.  Let's proceed.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You can see now in the background the garbage containers and this

 8     is the general area that we could see in that wider photograph; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, it's clear to me now based on the photo we had just seen.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now please just make the arcs and just

11     indicate how far the fragment traces went.

12        A.   Yes, I will but I have to stress again that a photo is not really

13     the appropriate way to determine these things, but here it is.  I will

14     now mark the outer-most traces and then connect them to the centre and

15     then the central axis would run approximately this way.

16        Q.   Would you agree with me that these fragments reach almost halfway

17     into the street, which is 6- to 7 metres wide?

18        A.   Well, viewed from this angle, that's what it looks like.  But

19     what we should really do is take a measuring tape and then go to the spot

20     and actually measure.

21        Q.   Can you now help us here with orientation.  Can you tell us the

22     sides of the cardinal points, where they would be?

23        A.   Well, yes I can.  The south is in the direction of this grey

24     Mercedes.  Of course north would be the opposite and then west and east

25     each way -- well, I can actually indicate it here.  I will put the

Page 7850

 1     compass rose mark and approximately it goes this way.  North, east, west,

 2     and -- I'm sorry, it goes this way, south, north -- [In English] West,

 3     east, north, south.  [Interpretation] To the south we have Mojmilo hill,

 4     and the north -- the north is the other way, this is the main axis.  And

 5     then there is Nedzarici, and towards the east you would go down-town to

 6     the old part of town.  Should I sign this?

 7        Q.   Yes, please.  Your signature and date, as usual.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this and

11     this will -- we will close on this topic with this witness with this

12     incident.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D756, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Let us now go back to that football-match, incident number 4 on

18     the G list.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D2578, please.  And

20     my apologies to Mr. Gaynor for uploading this just recently, and the need

21     arose because we wanted to help the witness to better find his bearings.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can you recognise what is shown in this photo?

24        A.   I don't know where this would be.  Maybe in Dobrinja somewhere or

25     could this be Mojmilo?  But I think that's not where this happened, this

Page 7851

 1     incident.

 2        Q.   Would you please indicate Mojmilo, could you mark it?

 3        A.   Well, is this Mojmilo hill?  I wasn't sure whether I recognised

 4     it.

 5        Q.   Yes, you did.

 6        A.   I will put an arrow here and put an M to indicate Mojmilo hill.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see the hoop here?

 8        A.   Yes, I do, the basketball hoop.  Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   So what we see in the foreground, is that the playground?

10        A.   Yes, it is a playground.

11        Q.   Please put a PG there.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Knowing all this, is it true that there was a match played on

14     this parking-lot full of vehicles based on what you were told?

15        A.   Well, based on this photo I can't really confirm that because I

16     cannot see either the heating plant or the building that should be

17     someplace here at the bottom of the photograph.  But if I were to be

18     shown the heating plant then I could confirm and tell you whether this is

19     in fact the playground in question.

20        Q.   But this is Mojmilo hill and this is a playground; correct?

21        A.   Well, yes.  You can see that in the photos.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please put your signature and date on the

23     photo.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             JUDGE KWON:  D757.

Page 7852

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Could we now have 2569, please, 1D2569.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is a photo that we've seen before I believe.  This is a

 5     photo which we used when we talked about dimensions.  Now, would you

 6     agree with me that this basketball court is some 10 to 15 metres away

 7     from the parking-lot?

 8        A.   Do you mean where the white car is parked where we can see it?

 9        Q.   Well, where the basketball match or the football-match was

10     played?

11        A.   Well, I really can't confirm again based on this photo, and I

12     cannot confirm that that was the place of the incident based on these two

13     photos.

14        Q.   Well, I will now tell you what the referee and the person who

15     organised this match said, Ismet Fazlic, in his report on the 20th of

16     June, 2001.  He said:

17             "The second shot exploded some 10 to 15 metres away from the

18     playground in the parking-lot."

19             That's 65 ter 10042 page 3, paragraph 5 of his statement.

20             This statement of his, would you agree with me, actually just

21     creates more confusion as to where this match was played, whether it was

22     on the playground or in the parking-lot?

23        A.   Well, based on his statement, yes, it is unclear where this match

24     was played; but based on the photos that you've shown me, I can't really

25     tell whether it was indeed there because we placed this whole incident

Page 7853

 1     and we orientated ourselves in terms of the Hedo Maglajlic [phoen] street

 2     and the heating plant.  So if you could show me one of those two

 3     landmarks that would help me because you said yourself that this on-site

 4     investigation was conducted three years later, and when we arrived with

 5     the investigators we were told that the football-match had been played

 6     there and that we should conduct a ballistics expertise based on the

 7     traces that were left by a mortar shell.

 8        Q.   My apologies.  Just a moment.  Can we look at this paragraph

 9     number 5 on this page, page 3, where he says:

10             "The second shell," that's line 3, paragraph 5.  Let's just look

11     if we can find that place.  It says "the second shell."  I can see it in

12     B/C/S.

13             "The second shell exploded about 10 or 15 metres away off the

14     playing surface, on the parking-lot."

15             Do you agree with me that the organiser of this match and the

16     referee actually mentioned two different areas, the playing surface and

17     the parking-lot as two different areas?

18        A.   Well, I agree with you because that's what it says there in the

19     statement, so I can't really contest that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did they tell you how the teams had been made up, how

21     many members on each side?

22        A.   No.  Believe me, we were not really interested in that frankly

23     speaking.  I really have no idea how many players there were.

24        Q.   Well, do you agree that in our part of the world people play this

25     kind of small-scale soccer with three- to five-member teams?

Page 7854

 1        A.   Well, three to five if they have the small goals, but then there

 2     can be the goalie plus six if they're playing on a handball court.

 3        Q.   However, would you agree that on this photograph there is no

 4     handball goal so that it was probably played on that other kind of court?

 5        A.   We cannot see the goal, but that is really your assumption.  I

 6     have no idea what kind of game they played because I wasn't there to

 7     watch it.

 8        Q.   I fully understand.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, bear in mind that you have only

10     limited time and ask the question that the witness is able to answer.

11     I'm speaking for myself, but I'm having the impression that you are not

12     using your time very efficiently.  Please continue.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your suggestion and

14     advice, but this witness is truly a professional and he's answering 99

15     per cent of all the questions put to him.  So let's not have the

16     photograph returned, but it is a contemporaneous photograph.

17             Anyway, has this statement of Mr. Ismet Fazlic's been admitted at

18     some point or should we admit it now?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Not now.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Fazlic says that in every team there were five

22     members respect --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 15047 because

24     Dzemo Kazlic [sic] mentions the name and says that there were three on

25     each side, so a total of six players.  65 ter number is 15047.

Page 7855

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sabljica said he had no knowledge about those

 2     facts.  What's the point of going on in such a detail with this witness?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like us to review all the

 4     inconsistencies that follow this incident because that is of exceptional

 5     importance for the Defence.  It doesn't only deal with a reasonable

 6     suspicion, but it's supposed to show what it was that actually happened.

 7     If you think that that is not needed, maybe we can disregard

 8     Dzemo Kazlic [sic] and perhaps we can deal with him when another witness

 9     appears if there are going to be witnesses with regard to this situation.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Let me ask you, Mr. Sabljica, in order to hear the sound of

12     firing, at what distance should these shells have been fired?

13        A.   I've already told you on the basis of my personal experience as a

14     soldier, you have to be pretty close in order to hear the shell being

15     fired because that sound is not as loud as the sound of detonation.  You

16     probably know that.  I said 50 to 100 metres.  Now, the other sounds that

17     witnesses heard, they say that they heard firing.  It's very hard.  If

18     you are in town and if somebody fires from a position that is out of

19     town, 500, 600 metres away, you can hardly hear the shell actually being

20     fired.

21        Q.   Do you agree that if a shell is fired from a distance of that

22     sort, that sound travels faster than the actual shell?

23        A.   Well, of course a shell is slower than sound, the velocity of

24     sound, I mean really, at least as far as mortars are concerned.  That is

25     scientifically proven.

Page 7856

 1        Q.   So if somebody heard the sound of firing before the sound of

 2     explosion, then that had to be within that range that you described.  And

 3     also, the sound of firing would be heard before the shell actually

 4     arrived and before the explosion took place; right?

 5        A.   Well, let me paint a picture for you.  At Hrasno Brdo while I was

 6     still a soldier of the Army of Republika Srpska [as interpreted], every

 7     firing from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska, these shells

 8     were not directly directed at us because we were 50 to 100 metres away

 9     depending on how the line went.  However, we could hear firing from some

10     of the artillery pieces.  You could not know which one of course and you

11     could hear the shell flying over your positions, and after a while you

12     would hear the explosion.  So at least 2 or 3 seconds have to go by by

13     the time you hear this, and if you are close to where the military units

14     are you can actually hear the sound of firing of a shell for instance.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I see --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  I just wanted to check if there was an

18     interpretation error.  The first part of the witness 's transcript in

19     English reads:  "While I was still a member of the Army of Republika

20     Srpska."  I want to check if that in fact is what he said.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said Army of Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina.  I mentioned the Army of Republika Srpska because it was

23     from their positions that the firing could be heard.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7857

 1        Q.   But now it's some kind of a joint army consisting of three ethnic

 2     battalions; right?

 3        A.   Yes, now it is the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's

 4     the way it is now.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have on this statement of

 6     Dzemo Kadric page 3, paragraphs 4 and 5 -- sorry, sorry, just a moment,

 7     please.  Dzemo Kadric, page 2.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Dzemo Kadric refers to the names of the players of the other

10     match and then he says:

11             "The match was about to end close to 10.00 ..."

12             Can you find that?

13        A.   I see it, yes, in English, but I can -- [In English] "In the

14     morning suddenly we heard a sound of --" [Interpretation] we heard a

15     sound --

16        Q.   They heard the sound of firing.

17        A.   It's Dzemo's statement and I explained this to you.  So I would

18     not like to state any views with regard to the statement of some other

19     witness.

20        Q.   Let us just state that he heard that and then he says that people

21     were watching the game and they fell on the ground a few seconds after

22     that firing the shell exploded in the centre of the playground.

23             How long would it take for the shell to arrive if you hear the

24     sound and then a few seconds later there is the explosion.

25        A.   Mr. Karadzic, these are parts of a second.  By the time you hear

Page 7858

 1     this and you lie down, you can ask Mr. Dzemo if he appears in this

 2     courtroom.  I don't want to state my views in relation to what he had

 3     stated.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this statement be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, I made it clear that we cannot admit a third

 7     person's statement, and I indicated that this may be a waste of your

 8     time, your precious time.

 9             Move on to your next topic, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I thought that this was

11     a witness -- or rather, that this was a document that was obtained by the

12     OTP and it speaks of the incident.  But all right.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you recall how far away the line of separation was or the

15     line of conflict unfortunately from the site of this incident?

16        A.   I really don't know because we did not investigate that in our

17     cases.  I really don't know what the actual distance was.  It was

18     probably very close.  You know that Dobrinja was intersected, part was

19     held by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and part was held by the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.  As far as I can remember, all of that was quite close

21     and the exact distance of the first lines of defence in relation to this

22     playground I really cannot say.

23        Q.   Would you like us to call up once again this map but section 14,

24     that is 09390C.  That's the 65 ter number, section 14, so that we can see

25     how close all of this is.

Page 7859

 1             You agree that it couldn't have been more than 300 metres?

 2        A.   I cannot confirm that.  You are leading me to say how many metres

 3     there were, but I really cannot say because I don't know how far away the

 4     playing ground was from the line of defence.

 5        Q.   Please don't hold it against me.  The Defence has the right to

 6     lead.

 7        A.   I'm not holding it against you.  You are well within your rights.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Sheet 14 to -- for the page.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you see this line, what you've been saying now, Dobrinja 4,

12     can you see this, can you see who controls what?  Actually, do you see

13     Aerodromsko Naselje that is under Serb control?

14        A.   The red line denotes the lines of the Army of Republika Srpska

15     and the blue line denotes the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

16        Q.   Yes, yes.  Do you agree that that is the case?

17        A.   Well, according to this map, yes, I can confirm that.

18        Q.   Do you see the slopes of Mojmilo up here, the green area?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can I ask you to mark an arrow there and place the letter M to

21     show the direction of Mojmilo.

22        A.   I'm going to draw it on the hill itself, this is M, Mojmilo.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct - and we can see it on the map - that

24     this was under the control of Army of BH?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.  This hill was under BH control.

Page 7860

 1        Q.   Thank you.  As for Aerodromsko Naselje that I had taken to be

 2     Dobrinja, to the left can you put A, Aerodromsko Naselje which was under

 3     Serb control?

 4        A.   Yes, it was under the control of Army of Republika Srpska, A,

 5     that's what you meant; right?

 6        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Can you now see where that heating plant is?

 7        A.   I cannot.  If you think it's this building here, I'm not quite

 8     sure.  Or is it perhaps this one?  This is a school.  I don't know.

 9        Q.   What about the site where this incident occurred, can you mark

10     that?

11        A.   If we could zoom-in if I see the street of Vahide Maglaic perhaps

12     I could be able to tell.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going to lose this?  Are we

14     going to lose the markings if we zoom-in.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we can try to mark it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Perhaps later you could mark it.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Or just could you put the date and signature here

19     and we'll admit this as D758.  And then we can zoom-in.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This neighbourhood, the upper left-hand corner, can we zoom-in so

22     we can see the street names.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Further -- no, to the left -- no, no, that's too

24     much.  Can we zoom-out once going upward to the left.

25             Can you sort it out, Mr. Sabljica?

Page 7861

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see the map, but I'm trying to

 2     find the street Vahide Maglaic.  I cannot see that.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could this map be of assistance, the hard copy?  And then with

 5     the assistance of this map you can try to mark it on this other one.

 6        A.   I'll try.

 7        Q.   Numbers?

 8        A.   It's probably marked with a number.

 9        Q.   Can you find the number on the back?

10        A.   473.

11             I've found it.

12        Q.   Could you please mark it.  And can you see this that says

13     "smoke-stack," you see it says here "smoke-stack"?

14        A.   You mean on this map?

15        Q.   Yes, yes.

16        A.   Let me just find this street that I have already found.

17        Q.   You're looking for Vahide Maglaic; right?

18        A.   Yes.  It is marked 473 on this hard copy map and it intersects

19     with the boulevard of Mimar Sinana.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, do you have a 65 ter number over map

21     which is appearing in the Sarajevo specific binder, page 10 on which the

22     shelling --

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, we'll get that to you right now, the

24     65 ter number.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 7862

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map you've just shown me, is

 2     it with the old names of streets?

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I believe so.

 5        A.   No, no, it's actually new.  It says liberators of Sarajevo

 6     street.

 7        Q.   Yes, Liberators of Sarajevo and Hamdije Kapidzica, these are new

 8     names.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  It's 65 ter number 13581.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Can we use that map for the moment?  Let's give it a

12     try.  Let's bring up that number.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpreter didn't hear the

14     number but I would like 65 ter --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again, Mr. Gaynor.  He

16     lost it.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I'll have it in -- sorry, it was 13581.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could we zoom-in to number 4.  Number 4 should be in

19     the centre.

20             Can you confirm, Mr. Sabljica, that number 4 may be the place of

21     the incident?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, because on the street map

23     Vahide Maglaic is under number 473 below the school, further to the

24     south.  This is the primary school below the name Dobrinja, and it turns

25     out the street must be parallel with this other street Zikica Spanac

Page 7863

 1     according to the street map.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you see this smoke-stack?

 4        A.   You mean the heating plant?  But there are several heating

 5     plants.  There is two that you see next to the Lukavica road.  And then

 6     you have the first one on the entrance plus another one.  I don't know

 7     exactly which one of them it is.

 8        Q.   Can you mark on this map where Vahide Maglaic Street is according

 9     to you and the site of the incident?

10        A.   Not on this map.  I find this street plan of Sarajevo much more

11     helpful because we see 473 marking the street of Vahide Maglaic.

12        Q.   Do you agree that from the site of the incident one of these

13     heating plants is visible?

14        A.   Yes, the one to the north-west from the site of explosion.  That

15     means that this place marked "smoke-stack" could be taken as the site of

16     the incident at the playground.

17        Q.   In that case, Vahide Maglaic fits where?

18        A.   I don't know who made this, but whoever was competent wrote

19     quadrant E7 and number 473.

20        Q.   Then mark the heating plant and the direction pointing to the top

21     of Mojmilo.

22        A.   I will mark Mojmilo with an M and this is the heating plant with

23     T.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And Vahide Maglaic Street is now called the square of

25     Dobrinja children.  Can you find it?

Page 7864

 1        A.   It's number 4.

 2        Q.   It used to be Vahide Maglaic Street?

 3        A.   In that case it's number 4 up.

 4        Q.   Can we agree that the diagonal across this square lies in the

 5     north-south direction, this diagonal that goes from the Lukavica road to

 6     the top of this building?

 7        A.   You mean this or the opposite one?

 8        Q.   The opposite one.  I believe that other one is

 9     north-east/south-west.

10        A.   I believe that the boiler plant is north-west from the site of

11     explosion.

12        Q.   Just show us exactly this direction which leaves the heating

13     plant a little to the west.

14        A.   All right.  I'm drawing the diagonal here.  Shall I mark it with

15     north.

16        Q.   Do we now agree that on three out of four sides the confrontation

17     line is no farther than 300 metres?

18        A.   You mean this red line is the confrontation line?  If we zoom-out

19     we'll lose the markings.

20        Q.   You can sign it and then we'll zoom-out, date, initials.

21        A.   [Marks]

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D759, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Witness, do you see number 39 just below --

Page 7865

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Can you go back to the previous map.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Section 14.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Sheet 14 of 9390C.  Whatever is okay, marked one.

 5     Let's bring up the marked one.

 6             Just a second.  Can you zoom-in further.

 7             Do you recognise -- do you see -- zoom-in further.

 8             Do you see the number 39 again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  I see number 39.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Then you can tell the distance from this

11     confrontation line?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some 300, 400 metres away.  I agree

13     with Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   May I ask you to mark again the heating plant, this diagonal

16     across the square.

17        A.   To mark north and all that I did previously?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   Heating plant, north, Mojmilo is marked, and the impact is

20     somewhere here.  It's marked.  And these are the defence lines.  Is that

21     it?

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now we would be assisted by another photograph --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We need to keep -- need to give a

24     separate number for this.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be Exhibit D760.

Page 7866

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Date and signature then.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The number?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D760, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe we'll be now using a

 5     photograph that all the parties have in their e-mail, but it's not yet

 6     uploaded in e-court and it would help the witness to identify the broader

 7     area.  1D2579.  Could we place this photograph on the ELMO and its in

 8     everyone's e-mail.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While we're waiting, let us make good use of the time.  Was it

11     established that the calibre of the shells was -- what kind of shells

12     were they?

13        A.   Mortar shells, 82 millimetres.

14        Q.   What is the minimal distance from which an 82-millimetre shell

15     can be fired?

16        A.   I will tell you from memory, some 600, 650 metres.  That's the

17     minimum allowed firing range for these mortars, but it gives the best

18     results at 4200.  You may correct me if I'm wrong because it was all a

19     long time ago.

20        Q.   Everybody has firing tables.  Can you recognise this photograph?

21     Can you identify the parking-lot, the heating plant, and Mojmilo?

22        A.   We can see the heating plant, Mojmilo, the parking-lot, and the

23     basketball playground.

24        Q.   And where was the match played?  According to this man Ismet it

25     was on the playground, according to other people on the parking-lot?

Page 7867

 1        A.   According to our measurements we found that the shell fell on the

 2     parking-lot.  You can see that from the photo documentation, and I stand

 3     behind that.

 4        Q.   Then mark the playground with PG, mark the parking-lot, and the

 5     heating plant.

 6        A.   I don't know if you can write on this screen with an electronic

 7     pen.

 8        Q.   We can come back to it later when it's uploaded in e-court.  That

 9     will be soon.  Now, with a 0 charge what is the minimum range for this

10     82-millimetre mine?

11        A.   I said 600 metres.

12        Q.   Now it's here in e-court.  Can you mark the playground, the

13     parking-lot, with a pen.

14        A.   [In English] Playing ground, parking.

15        Q.   The heating plant and Mojmilo.

16        A.   [Interpretation] Heating plant, Mojmilo.

17        Q.   We agree, don't we, that Mojmilo was under the BH army control?

18        A.   We've established that already.  Do you want my signature and

19     date?

20        Q.   As usual.

21        A.   [Marks]

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Number.

23             JUDGE KWON:  D761.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we now see P1053.  P1053.

Page 7868

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Let's just look at page 1 to identify the document and then we'll

 3     move to page 57.  This is an incident on the 1st of June, 1993.  The

 4     report was finished on the 7th of July, 1993.  It was done for the United

 5     Nations.

 6        A.   That's clearly written.

 7        Q.   UN commission for war crimes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 57.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   On page 57 we see that it is a transcript of an interview

11     conducted at the headquarters of the BH Army in Dobrinja on the 5th of

12     July.  Do you agree that this interview was conducted with Dinko Bakal?

13        A.   Yes, it's written.

14        Q.   Now look at paragraph 3:

15             "When I heard the detonations, I thought these were mortar

16     shells."

17             Can you continue:

18        A.   [In English] "However, later we found parts of mortar shell and

19     they were 60-millimetres calibre.  Since I had a phone in my apartment, I

20     phoned to the hospital and to the army commander and asked for some

21     ambulances ..." and et cetera, et cetera.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it clear from this that fragments of a

23     60-millimetre shell were found and you were not informed of that when you

24     came three years later?

25        A.   Obviously not.

Page 7869

 1        Q.   Thank you.  This is already an exhibit.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see this table of

 3     charges to see.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you agree that the 60-millimetre weapon is carried on your

 6     back, it's treated as a light weapon?

 7        A.   Yes, it's used for demining, for destroying smaller targets, and

 8     it was good at 300 metres.

 9        Q.   But it could be used for a shorter range also?

10        A.   Yes, of course if we are really talking about 60 millimetres.

11        Q.   Let us stay on the assumption that there was also an

12     82-millimetre weapon.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D0262 -- 1D02262.

14     Could we zoom-in on this table.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You can't learn it by heart.  You have to look at it.

17        A.   Of course.

18        Q.   Do you agree that charge 1 can be fired from a distance of 80

19     metres -- sorry, 0 charge?

20        A.   Yes, the basic charge.

21        Q.   The basic 0 charge can be fired from 80 metres?

22        A.   That's written.

23        Q.   The next charge, number 1?

24        A.   100 metres -- sorry, 225 metres.

25        Q.   Do you agree then that possibly 0 charge or charge 1 would be

Page 7870

 1     fired even if it's not a 60-millimetre weapon would fall within

 2     confrontation lines?

 3        A.   Based on this table with distances, you can see that it can be

 4     fired from a smaller distance, but from which place I really can't say, I

 5     did not confirm that in my report either.  We just established the

 6     direction from which it descended, and again we worked on the parking-lot

 7     where we were brought three years later and you saw for yourself which

 8     shell we dealt with.  The shell that is now shown on the playground was

 9     not even taken into account by us.  We did not work on the playground.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

12     entered into evidence.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  First of all -- objection, on two grounds.  First of

16     all, notice.  This document was not contained on the list of documents

17     provided to the Prosecution at the commencement of cross-examination.

18     And although we have been receiving several e-mails during

19     cross-examination, including one at 11.22 a.m. containing the previous

20     photograph, we have not received any notification of this document.

21             Now, the second ground of objection is that there's no indication

22     as to the source of this document, and we would like to see the original

23     document from which this page is taken in order to verify its

24     authenticity and accuracy.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Should we put it being marked for identification

Page 7871

 1     until the time we would be satisfied as to its foundation, Mr. Gaynor?

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of help, this is a

 5     manual from 1984, Mr. Sabljica knows this very well, it originates from

 6     our former country, joint country, and I think that we can help resolve

 7     this dilemma.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Can you confirm that, Mr. Sabljica?  Would you like

 9     to see the book?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I am familiar with that

11     book and I can confirm that this was published by the JNA and refers to

12     artillery pieces.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like page 85 to be shown to

14     Mr. Sabljica nevertheless.  We are going to waste some time on that, but

15     I think it's important.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll mark it for identification pending

17     translation.

18             Mr. Gaynor.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit MFI D762, Your Honours.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  We can arrange that so that the cover page of that

24     book would be uploaded as well.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7872

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I'd like just Mr. Sabljica to confirm that the page 85 is

 3     identical to the one that we have just shown in the court.

 4        A.   Yes, it is identical.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has a number been assigned?  I

 8     haven't heard.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D762.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I have to go back now regardless of your reservation concerning

13     the data contained in the statement, but let us assume that one can hear

14     the firing noise and we know the calibre.  Can that help to determine the

15     distance, given that by applying your methods we can only determine the

16     direction and not the distance; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.  The facts that you mentioned concerning the

18     hearing of the firing can help in some general conclusions.  If you have

19     radar information, you can know the exact location of the fire.

20        Q.   Don't you find it a bit unusual that the time elapsing between

21     the firing and the blast has never been explained or taken into account;

22     on the other hand, we have two witnesses who had heard the firing?

23             JUDGE KWON:  That's not for the witness to comment upon.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   If you had had this data, would you have required that to be

Page 7873

 1     established as well?

 2        A.   No, I wouldn't.  This is completely irrelevant for our method.

 3     This is more in the domain of some personal sensation of witnesses

 4     claiming that they heard the noise or didn't hear the noise.  So one

 5     should take that with some reservation and with a grain of salt.

 6     Therefore, we didn't take that into account when compiling our reports.

 7     I attributed no importance to anyone's statement to the effect of the

 8     origin of fire.

 9        Q.   Was that because you only determined the direction, not the

10     distance?

11        A.   I am reiterating the fact that this is not the only reason.  This

12     is something that is not relevant.  This is just a subjective opinion

13     given by someone stating that he had heard the firing.  We didn't have

14     any equipment or devices that could be used to establish the exact origin

15     of fire and the place of fire.  So these subjective statements cannot be

16     taken into account as reliable ones.

17        Q.   Well, I understand your point of view.  But in this trial if we

18     have two people confirming that they heard the fire, the Defence has to

19     take that into account.  Would you agree that after three and a half

20     years the traces on the asphalt surface have remained quite visible.  Is

21     it possible that someone had tampered with that surface in the meantime?

22        A.   They were not more prominent, but they were -- was some red mass

23     poured over them because all across the town the so-called roses of death

24     were made.  However, there was no mechanical intervention.  It was only

25     marked in a better and more visible way.  You can refer to Mr. van Hecke

Page 7874

 1     and his report, where he describes the traces in another incident.  So

 2     there was no chipping off or any other works that were done on the place

 3     of impact.  What we have is only the place of impact and the effects

 4     caused by the shell.

 5        Q.   Was this filling-in by this red substance intended to preserve

 6     the traces?  Were the tunnels, for example, filled in with that substance

 7     and subsequently was this substance removed in order to use the tunnel

 8     for determining the angle?

 9        A.   Well, this marking was only for the purpose of memorials of all

10     those ugly things that had been happening in the past and for posterity

11     to know what was going on.

12        Q.   Very well.  Now, in this criminal investigation report, number

13     9970, 65 ter, 09970.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it back again and I'd

15     like us to see page 3.  The last ERN digits are 658.

16             JUDGE KWON:  What is the P number of this?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version is all right.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that is Exhibit P1699.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please find the portion

20     where it says the position of the central crater caused by the --

21        A.   Was fixed --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please indicate the portion

23     that they are reading.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sabljica, could you indicate -- could you find

25     that passage from the monitor in the e-court so that we can follow.

Page 7875

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have found it in B/C/S and I'll

 2     try to find the corresponding passage in English.  And in English it

 3     should be on the next page.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it.  Yes.  Fine.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have found it and I can

 6     indicate it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  No, you can -- we can find it.  Thank you.  Please

 8     go on.

 9             THE WITNESS:  This third paragraph, the centre -- no, second

10     paragraph.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS:  "The position of the central crater ..."

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I continue reading?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Yes, and please explain the meaning of this.

17        A.   "The position of the central crater on the Tarmac surface created

18     by explosion of the artillery shell was fixed based on the relation

19     between the arch section and the stairwell (on the eastern side ...

20     which is 4 metres ... and to the central crater which is 11.5 metres, ...

21     photographs 2 and 3 ..."

22             Now let me explain what this means.  When we fix the position of

23     explosion taking some solid object as a bench-mark which is not

24     changeable.  So in this case we took the stairwell that exists even

25     today, we gauged the distance between the existing building in -- or

Page 7876

 1     facility, in this case stairwell, and we took the arc from the stairwell

 2     as one measure and the other one was from the edge of the stairwell to

 3     the place of explosion.  And we used a normal measuring device that every

 4     technician has.  So whoever comes to the spot can easily find the place

 5     where the shell landed.  Did you understand?

 6        Q.   Yes.  Now, let us explain where this 4-metre line is.  Maybe a

 7     sketch would be helpful and can you use any of the photographs that you

 8     have to make this sketch?

 9        A.   No, none of the photographs can be used because the stairwell is

10     not shown in them.  I'm sorry that there is no sketch of the site that

11     the scene of crime officer makes.  So there is no sketch showing the

12     stairwell.  If you look at photo 2, which I have in hard copy, which is

13     on the left-hand side of the impact place where you have this soldier

14     standing --

15        Q.   In the investigation report prepared by the BH police, was there

16     such a sketch included?

17        A.   There should be one because yesterday we saw one that was drawn

18     by a technician where he made a mistake by marking north wrongly, but you

19     will have to ask them.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the Prosecution

21     to tell me if they by any chance have this sketch.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  We'll look into the matter.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   If I understood you correctly, the descent angle of the mortar

Page 7877

 1     was not established?

 2        A.   No, it wasn't.  There was no tail fin, there was no fuse.  So to

 3     be honest when you don't have enough evidence and traces I don't think it

 4     would be appropriate to just play around and toy with that.  I only -- we

 5     only indicated the deviation in degrees with regard to north.

 6        Q.   Back in 1993 did anyone establish the angle of descent?  Were you

 7     provided with this kind of material?

 8        A.   Not me personally.  I repeat, at the time when this incident took

 9     place I was in the Army of BH not in the police of BH, and during the

10     subsequent investigation nobody gave us this kind of material.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 2 of this

13     document to see what it reads.  I believe that this should be the --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Next page.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, next page in English and --

16     yes, now we have the proper page in B/C/S as well.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you please focus now on the paragraph which says -- can you

19     see that?

20        A.   Yes, I can.  Do you want me to read it?

21             "Based on the size of the marks on the Tarmac surface and the

22     shapes of the prominent trails and impact trails of blast, we deduced as

23     follows:

24             "The shell which hit the Tarmac surface of the parking-lot was an

25     82-millimetre shell.

Page 7878

 1             "And the shell came from the south-easterly direction or 110

 2     degrees from the north."

 3             Do you want me to go on?

 4        Q.   Yes.  Yes, yes, go on.

 5        A.   "The point of impact of the second shell was not forensically

 6     examined due to the changed appearance of the soil adjacent to the

 7     parking-lot (various agricultural plants have been planted there in the

 8     meantime).  A photo file was created during the making of this record and

 9     it constitutes an integral part of it."

10             And below it says:

11             "Sarajevo, 24th of November ..."

12             And we have the signatures of Mr. Medjedovic and myself.

13        Q.   Now, apart from the direction stated in your report, there is no

14     claim that it was fired either from the position of the Army of Republika

15     Srpska or the position of the BH Army?

16        A.   Yes, you can see it for yourself.  There is no indication as to

17     which of the two armies could be accused of this particular fire.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that something was plant in the impact

19     place of the second shell.  Do you remember which particular plants were

20     planted there?

21        A.   Well, I don't know.  Throughout the war Sarajevo was besieged and

22     encircled.  It was difficult to get any vegetables, and I suppose that

23     they planted tomatoes or potatoes or any other kind of vegetables.

24        Q.   I believe that this report is an integral part of the relevant P

25     exhibit.

Page 7879

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is that right?  Yes, it is.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             Can I please then ask again for P0153 --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1053.  Let's first look at page 1

 6     in order to identify the document and then we shall proceed.  P1053,

 7     that's a Prosecution exhibit that we had already seen before.

 8             This is a UN report dated the 7th of July, 1993.

 9             Can we please move to page 9 of this document.

10             This was written three years before the work conducted by your

11     team, so could you please read paragraphs 1 and 2.

12        A.   [In English] Paragraph 1:

13             "Splinter pattern indicates mortar, minimum calibre

14     81-millimetres.  Bearing to origin of fire" --

15             JUDGE KWON:  We can all read this.  What is the question,

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you read it to yourself then, Mr. Sabljica, so that you can

20     see what UNPROFOR did at the time.

21        A.   [Interpretation] I can.

22        Q.   Do you agree that in the second part it says that on the

23     macadam --

24        A.   No fuse was found and that's why they could not apply the tunnel

25     method, but they do mention this macadam.  It's a type of surface,

Page 7880

 1     macadam.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  This has already been admitted, so I just wanted us

 3     to have a full picture.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Now it's the time to break, Mr. Karadzic.  I have to

 5     note for your planning purposes you have spent about five hours and 40

 6     minutes.  We allowed you seven minutes to cross-examine the witness --

 7     I'm sorry, seven hours.  Which means that you will have one hour and 20

 8     minutes left for the remainder of your cross-examination and that you

 9     will have about ten minutes tomorrow to conclude your cross-examination.

10     So I would like you to plan the remainder of your cross-examination to be

11     concluded in that time-limit.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would like to

13     indicate frequent errors, Freudian ones.  Mr. Gaynor asked Mr. Sabljica

14     about his participation in the explosion in Markale, and this is the

15     second time that you have been experiencing hours as minutes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Defence --

18             JUDGE KWON:  -- rise and we'll resume at 12.35.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope that we will have just one

23     question left in relation to the football game.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, we have one crater on the asphalt and that's what

Page 7881

 1     they showed you and that's what you measured; right?

 2        A.   Yes, precisely.

 3        Q.   When were these holes filled with this red mass?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly.  After the on-site investigation.  It

 5     wasn't done before that.

 6        Q.   Oh, so when you were there you didn't have to remove that?

 7        A.   No, no, no, no.

 8        Q.   All right.  We've clarified that.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter number 10083.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you know the name of expert Richard Higgs?

12        A.   No, this is the first time I hear of him.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now we're going to see this.  I believe that there

14     should be a version in English.  This is a report of Mr. Richard Higgs.

15     On page 8 now, paragraph 1.  Mr. Higgs toured these sites in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Sarajevo.  And -- I don't want to say this by way

17     of a comment, I don't know if it was tourism or investigation, but

18     nevertheless let's have a look at what he says in paragraph 1.  Would you

19     read that, please.

20        A.   I am going to read it in our language.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we have the original

22     English.  This is not the page.  It should be C.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Statement of witness Gasi, number

24     00379300, at the request of the International Court for the former

25     Yugoslavia I toured the location with Mr. Chester Stamp and I examined

Page 7882

 1     the two craters ..." et cetera.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the relevant page?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the Serbian version.  And

 4     in English, yes, 10 -- 7510 are the last digits on the ERN number.  It's

 5     probably not this, it's not 8.  It should be C.  So it's C and then the

 6     text that follows, the statement of Witness Gasi.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  It's the 7th page in the English version.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  In general we don't see any point in asking

10     Mr. Sabljica to read the document out loud when it's in the English

11     language version.

12             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   My question is:  How is it possible that Mr. Higgs considerably

15     after your investigation saw two craters on the asphalt, both of them

16     filled in with a red substance, when according to your findings one

17     crater was in the soil, a soft surface, and when there was vegetation

18     there?

19        A.   I don't know.  Ask that Mr. Higgs if he comes here.  I don't know

20     if these two craters are related to that incident since he mentions red

21     substance.  I know that later on the ones in Markale were marked with

22     this red substance.  I've already explained that.

23        Q.   Thank you.  He now speaks of what happened at the football-match

24     in Dobrinja.  At any rate you find this unusual?

25        A.   Highly unusual.

Page 7883

 1        Q.   Do you agree that after this was filled in, as Mr. Higgs says,

 2     after the crater was filled in with a red substance to a degree a

 3     detailed analysis was rendered impossible?

 4        A.   That's what it says here and I agree; however, part of the crater

 5     was preserved and it makes it possible to draw some conclusions.  So

 6     perhaps some of the traces were removed by that method.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in our terminology and in our

 8     language asphalt and macadam are two different things?

 9        A.   And how.

10        Q.   In our terminology macadam is a cobbled road and --

11        A.   Yes, and I said that when I read that report that you asked me to

12     read.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We have shed light on this, and I would like us to

14     move on to the tram incident.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry, Mr. President.  The -- could I ask

16     Mr. Karadzic to slow down because in that instance the entirety of

17     Mr. Sabljica's answer was not interpreted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I was not confident which part is answer and which

19     part is question.

20             Could you tell us in a brief manner again about the terminology

21     in your language which relate to asphalt and macadam, Mr. Sabljica.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic asked whether in our

23     language that terminology denoted different concepts and my answer was

24     yes, because "macadam" in our language denotes a road that is covered in

25     crushed stone, so it is not the same kind of surface as asphalt.  So that

Page 7884

 1     is what was stated if I'm not mistaken.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise for the speed, but

 4     I'm trying to deal with everything in this time that is so limited.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, can we now look at sniper fire against the tram on

 7     the 23rd of November, 1994.  This is incident number 14 [realtime

 8     transcript read in error "13]  from table F.  Do you remember the

 9     incident?

10        A.   There were several such incidents involving trams.  If you could

11     tell me the approximate location of where the tram was hit, then perhaps

12     I will be able to give you more detail.

13        Q.   I will certainly do that.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter number 09699 and

15     then ERN page 917 -- just a moment, please.  ERN 9779.  That is the

16     incident that occurred by the technical school between the Marsal Tito

17     barracks and the technical school.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the tram was moving in the

19     direction towards the new city; right, Novi Grad, east-west.  Is that the

20     incident?  Right.  I see.  I have it in front of me now.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours this is Exhibit P1714.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you please refresh your memory by looking at this.

24        A.   Yes, I'm looking at it right now.  Yes, this is the report of a

25     colleague, operative inspector from the homicide department.  And I see

Page 7885

 1     my own name under number 4 and the tram went to the garage so it could

 2     not be returned.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can I ask you a general question now.  Automatic

 4     fire, bursts of gun-fire from automatic weapons like the ones that we

 5     have, like automatic rifles, is there a certain dispersion and can you

 6     tell us the relation between dispersion and distance?

 7        A.   Yes.  The bigger the range, the bigger the dispersion and it

 8     depends on the marksman involved.  And also in our terminology we say to

 9     which side does a rifle move, and if you are firing bursts of gun-fire

10     you can hardly hit a single target.

11        Q.   From a distance particularly?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   What is the range of these automatic rifles that all three

14     warring parties had?

15        A.   APM-70 and APM-72 which were the result of our version of the AK

16     rifle.  It was 350 to 400 metres.  That was the most efficient.

17        Q.   Was that the most efficient?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I object to the question:

20             "What is the range of these automatic rifles that all three

21     warring parties had?"

22             I don't believe that Mr. Karadzic elicited evidence from the

23     witness that all three warring parties had a specific kind of rifle.  He

24     is assuming a fact which is not necessarily in evidence.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I agree with Mr. Gaynor's observation.  Be more

Page 7886

 1     specific in putting such terms.

 2             Let's move on.  Witness answered in any event.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Again, I'm trying to

 4     save time.  Could the transcript be corrected.  I said that the incident

 5     number was 14 from list F.  It's not 13, as it is stated here.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This is way too fast for

 7     interpretation and for court reporting.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did this come from the former JNA?  And could you please pause

10     briefly for the interpreters.

11        A.   I agree.  All of this came from the arsenal of the JNA, 95

12     per cent of it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that there were also automatic weapons

14     that had silencers for which silencers existed?

15        A.   Yes.  For example, Heckler & Koch rifles that were used by the

16     special units, that is where silencers were used, yes.  That existed, I

17     saw that, so yes there were weapons with silencers.

18        Q.   All right.  Can you tell us now what you could conclude here

19     beyond reasonable doubt?

20        A.   In this case I see before me a report that was compiled by a

21     colleague from the homicide department, so I don't have the ballistic

22     findings.  Since the tram had gone to the garage I -- we could just

23     describe the damage sustained by the tram and we could give indicia of

24     the angles of descent and in terms of the side of the tram that was

25     affected.  We could not state our views on the point or the area because

Page 7887

 1     the tram was already in the garage and it couldn't go back anymore.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  First of all, does this suggest that there had been

 3     several bullets, that one person got killed, and that several persons

 4     were wounded; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes, that is what is written here.  One person was killed and

 6     three persons were wounded.

 7        Q.   Do you recall that this person who was killed was hit by three

 8     bullets from a burst of gun-fire?  That's in the statement of his wife

 9     who was wounded herself.

10        A.   Unfortunately I don't know about that.  I haven't read his wife's

11     statement and that is not what I was interested in as a ballistics man,

12     to examine the corpses, et cetera.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This crime department -- these people from the crime

14     department, could they do anything without ballistic findings?  The

15     calibre was not established, nothing was, but they just say that it was

16     the aggressor that had fired the shots.  Could they do that without your

17     findings, the ballistic findings?

18        A.   Of course that was not possible.  You'll have to ask him why it

19     was written that way and on the basis of what he wrote that, on the basis

20     of what particular knowledge.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 231194.  1D2415

22     actually, Google.  This is Google, from this area.

23             The statement that we have on the screen, or rather, the official

24     report, has that been admitted in some document.  Yes, obviously, it's

25     part of an exhibit.

Page 7888

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me; right ?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   No, no, sorry.

 4             Can you recognise this area of Sarajevo?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  I see Vrbanja bridge, the Assembly, the main road

 6     where vehicles move and where the tram goes.

 7        Q.   On this photograph can you mark the place where the incident had

 8     occurred?  It says here Marsal Tito barracks and the technical school.

 9     Can you mark the technical school?

10        A.   Here's the technical school.  That's the technical school.

11        Q.   Thank you.  The complex of the Marsal Tito barracks?

12        A.   It starts from here and it goes all the way up there to Pofalici.

13     Tito barracks, that's how I'm going to mark it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall where the incident took place?

15     According to the official report, the tram was between the technical

16     school and the Marsal Tito barracks; right?

17        A.   The area between the technical school and the Marsal Tito

18     barracks, have a look at this, it could have been here, all the way here.

19     Now how can I say exactly, it was right here.  I cannot pin-point it but

20     I can mark the area between these two buildings that are referred to.

21     Would you like me to do that?

22        Q.   Yes.  If you could please shade that area.

23        A.   Yes, here between the technical school and the barracks, a bit

24     more.  That would be it.

25        Q.   Place of incident, could you mark it that way, PI.

Page 7889

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  According to the statement of the tram-driver

 3     Huso Pavle [sic], which he gave a day after the incident, the tram was at

 4     the U-turn for a new tram stop.  Can you mark it.

 5        A.   It's at the intersection of these two streets.  That's the turn

 6     for the new railway station.  I'll put a circle there.  Is that all

 7     right?

 8        Q.   Excellent.  Do you remember or perhaps you can see from this

 9     report that the incident happened at 1530 hours?

10        A.   Are you talking about the report of that inspector?  If he says

11     so in the report, then it must have happened at that time.

12        Q.   Does your report exist about this incident and why isn't it

13     included?  What did your ballistic report say about this incident?

14        A.   I told you at the beginning, if we had done it we probably just

15     indicated damage on the tram.  We were only able to measure the angles

16     and that was all.  Since the tram was not in place, we could not do the

17     measurements to determine placement, as I explained earlier.

18        Q.   Can you put the date and your signature there.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Sabljica, when modified air bombs first

21     appeared?

22        A.   I believe it was already in 1995, towards the end of the

23     conflict.

24        Q.   Let me help you.  Do you recall that that was one year into the

25     sanctions imposed by Yugoslavia and that's why they appeared, why they

Page 7890

 1     were modified?

 2        A.   I don't know the reason, but I know that Republika Srpska was

 3     under the embargo imposed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now get -- sorry, did this

 5     get a number?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do so.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit D763.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 09988.  Let's see the first

 9     page to identify the document.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is Exhibit P119.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 8, ERN

12     number -- 830 is the ending of the ERN number.  Actually, can we get the

13     next page.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   "My name is Huso Palo ..."

16             Can you see this?  Now the third paragraph from the bottom.

17        A.   You mean.

18             "On the day when the incident happened"?  "There were no military

19     targets in the street, only UNPROFOR and us.  It was clear that the

20     civilians were the targets."  He mentions the presence of the UNPROFOR.

21        Q.   May I trouble you to look at the last paragraph?

22        A.   You mean "additionally"?

23        Q.   Yes, he says he lived in Bistrik.

24        A.   "Additionally, in late 1993 three improvised aircraft bombs fell

25     in the area.  They destroyed five houses."

Page 7891

 1        Q.   He's talking about Bistrik; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, this witness the day after the incident claims the incident

 4     happened in the presence of the UNPROFOR.

 5        A.   That's written in his statement.

 6        Q.   This is part of a document offered by the Prosecution.  Since

 7     there are no findings by you here, we will not spend more time on it

 8     although it is full of contradictions that you are not necessarily aware

 9     of.  Just a moment, please.

10             Relative to the side of the tram, it was established that the

11     projectile could have been fired from south/south-east?

12        A.   I read that in that report you placed on the screen earlier.

13        Q.   Briefly, apart from this general conclusion, nothing else could

14     be established about this incident?

15        A.   Well, you will have to ask the writer of this report how he

16     determined that the direction was south/south-east.

17        Q.   My learned friend Mr. Gaynor asked you in chief about another

18     incident that happened two days later, 25th November, remember, after the

19     stop in Pofalici; right?

20        A.   I remember.

21        Q.   In the case of this incident it is again true that the tram was

22     not placed in such a way that the exact origin of fire could be

23     determined?

24        A.   That case was a bit different.  It concerned a distance of about

25     a couple of metres, and we stated it in our report.  One green building

Page 7892

 1     was suspected, but there was no visual contact established because we

 2     could not place the tram exactly where it was.  But the cardinal point

 3     was determined precisely.  We were within a range of 3, 4 metres and the

 4     driver's statement helped us.  However, we wrote our report with a

 5     reservation, saying that it was not possible to establish the exact

 6     location without sighting.

 7        Q.   Do you remember the witness has stated that the UNPROFOR

 8     commission investigated the very next day, just as the MUP commission,

 9     when the tram was brought again back to approximately the same place?

10        A.   Yes, I remember these statements.

11        Q.   Do you remember that two witnesses stated that the Frenchman said

12     this was fired from this building, showing the building, in the territory

13     controlled by the BiH army and he said, "If you want me to, I can even

14     show you the window"?

15        A.   Now, that is something I hear for the first time.  I don't know

16     anything about this or who stated it.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see this Official Note ERN

18     03315377.

19                           [Defence counsel confer]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we place it on the ELMO if it's

21     not available on the screen, but it should be because it's part of the

22     overall report on the incident of 25th November.  There are many

23     statements included.  Two trams were fired at.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you participate in this investigation?

Page 7893

 1        A.   Yes, I did.  Both the trams, the numbers were 277 and 217, those

 2     were the numbers of the trams.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we place this statement on the

 4     ELMO if there is no other option.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I think this may be part of 65 ter 10512.

 7     Your Honours have already admitted two documents from the investigative

 8     dossier into this incident.  Mr. Karadzic is now dealing with a document

 9     which was not one of those admitted.

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see.

11             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] If I may say, if one number is

12     admitted I would rather have the whole document admitted rather than two

13     papers chosen by the Prosecution.  In that case we would be obliged to

14     tender parts of the document, too.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that it was not admitted.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, correct.  The precise document that

17     Mr. Karadzic is now dealing with.  Now Mr. Karadzic's point is that the

18     entire investigative dossier should be admitted rather than merely the

19     two documents within that dossier which Your Honours have already

20     admitted.  And we have no objection to the admission of the entire

21     65 ter number 10512.  Now, for the record the two documents which

22     Your Honours have admitted is P1728.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  First of all, let's bring up 65 ter 10512 and see

24     what it is.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the page I need and this is

Page 7894

 1     something entirely different.  A moment ago the Serbian version was okay.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  This is a 39-page document, so we will go through.

 3     What's the ERN number you have?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 17 of this document.  Right.

 5     It's there.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can I draw your attention to this Official Note, one of the

 8     Official Notes made on this incident.  It was done the day after and it

 9     says:

10             "The holes created" -- or rather, read the paragraph that begins

11     with:  "When I arrived ..." and then we'll discuss --

12        A.   You mean this Sulejman Pilav?

13             "When I arrived, there were three members of the French

14     contingent of the UNPROFOR at the site.  One of them was an

15     interpreter ..." et cetera.

16        Q.   Now, can you see where it reads "the holes created"?

17        A.   "An UNPROFOR officer pushed metal rods into the bullet-holes and

18     said something to the others in French.  The other members of the team

19     did not do or say anything.  In response to my question, the interpreter

20     told me that the officer had said that the fire had come from the Muslim

21     side, from the neighbouring white building in Sibenska Street which also

22     houses the Bel Ami bar.  The interpreter even said that the officer was

23     able to determine from which window it was fired.  The officer then

24     removed the metal rods and left the site with his team at approximately

25     1745 hours.  The tram-driver drove the tram to the depot.

Page 7895

 1             "Note compiled by:

 2             "Sulejman Pilav."

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to tender the entire document or only

 5     this page.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, for the time being this page,

 7     but there will be other times when we will tender other pages.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  This will be admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D764, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Does this contain a ballistic report?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 5373, that's the ending of the ERN

14     number in this document.  Page 13 of the document itself.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you remember, I already

16     explained this report when I talked about the damage to the side of the

17     tram, the angle of descent, optical visibility, et cetera.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the English version page

19     13 -- or rather, page 14 in English.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Was this done on the 29th October, four days after the incident?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Would you describe to us the difficulties with the

24     tram.  You had to move the tram around quite a lot to get sighting

25     towards the green building?

Page 7896

 1        A.   If I remember well, we asked that the tram be placed exactly

 2     where it was hit according to the witness statements.  The first time we

 3     did it sighting pointed to this green building as a suspect feature in

 4     the territory controlled by the VRS in Grbavica; however, that building

 5     did not provide a direct line of sight to the tram and that's written in

 6     the report.  And then the driver intervened, his name is Aleksandar

 7     Guzina, as is written here, and he said the tram needed to be moved 3 or

 8     4 metres further, either backwards or forward.  However, we said in our

 9     report that there was no direct line of sight and we clearly stated our

10     reservations because for some reason, I can't remember what reason, it

11     was impossible to move the tram where the driver said.

12        Q.   The transcript does not include that there was no direct line of

13     sight to provide for a conclusion that targeting was intentional.  The

14     witness said that.

15        A.   Yes, it's written in the report and in English as well, and you

16     can see it concerning tram 217.  However, in the case of tram 277 it was

17     much easier to establish from which side the shot came from.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the next page in English

19     and in Serbian, the very end of the report.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   May I draw your attention to the words "sighting -- by means of

22     sighting with regard to the penetration points marked as numbers 1 and

23     2 ..."

24        A.   "A section of the 'white skyscraper' in Lenjinova street was

25     established as the site from which the round may have been fired on the

Page 7897

 1     said tram.  Photograph number 3.  Photographic evidence was

 2     established ..." et cetera, et cetera.

 3        Q.   So you establish that a shot could have been fired from that

 4     skyscraper, but did you establish that it was fired from the skyscraper?

 5        A.   When we were doing the on-site investigation, it was not quite

 6     possible, but if we recall the first day of my evidence we had occasion

 7     to see the sniper emplacements on that building which we considered

 8     suspect and there was strong evidence, strong indications in the case of

 9     this tram, that it could indeed be the place from which the shots were

10     fired.

11        Q.   Mr. Gaynor asked you on page 79 of the transcript whether you had

12     found evidence or indications that the shots may have been fired also

13     from the side held by the BH Army.

14        A.   I really did not find such evidence.  My team did not find it.  I

15     would not like to comment on the work of the French team.  They are

16     better placed to explain it.

17        Q.   Were you given an assignment to rule out the positions of the BH

18     Army?  You did not find them, but were you looking for them?  Was your

19     assignment given to you that you should rule out the positions of the BH

20     Army?

21        A.   I say with full responsibility that no, we worked without any

22     pressure from anyone from any political or military organisations.  We

23     did the work of civilian police, forensic experts, but in the difficult

24     conditions of war.  And we did not do the sighting influenced by

25     anything.  We did not consider any party to the conflict guilty in

Page 7898

 1     advance for any killing or any wounding from a fire-arm.

 2        Q.   Certainly.  I am not blaming anyone.  I just want to know what

 3     exactly your mission was.  Mr. Gaynor said on page 79, line 25:

 4             [In English] "Is there anything in this document to suggest that

 5     you concluded that the tram had been fired upon by Bosnian government

 6     forces?"

 7             [Interpretation] Was your task to either confirm or rule out the

 8     positions of the BH Army?

 9        A.   I'm telling you again, nobody ever gave us such a task.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please call up sheet 10

11     or section 10 of the map, 65 ter 0939C.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Sabljica, I'm sorry that I'm dealing with an incident that is

14     not covered by the indictment, but Mr. Gaynor dealt with it in

15     examination-in-chief and my cross-examination is very much related to it.

16        A.   As far as I'm concerned, it's all right.

17        Q.   Section number 10 --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before that can we have

19     Mr. Medjedovic and Mr. Sabljica's report admitted into evidence.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Medjedovic.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Yes, yes.  Medjedovic.  I apologise.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think this is part of what we have already

24     admitted as P1728.  I should stand corrected if I'm wrong.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct according to our records.

Page 7899

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have the eastern

 3     portion.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you see the Pofalici stop or do we need to look at number 11?

 6        A.   I would like you to zoom-in on the upper left-hand corner -- or

 7     rather, upper right-hand corner.  And you have to move the map further to

 8     the east.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then have section 11.  Yes,

10     this is sheet 11.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you see this part now?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Can we zoom-in.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Upper left-hand corner.

16        A.   Yes, where it says "Novo Sarajevo."

17             JUDGE KWON:  To the left -- let's -- and then -- yes, I think

18     that will do.  No, do not move to the right.  Just go back to the left.

19     Yes.

20             Is it okay, Mr. Sabljica?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  It's okay now.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can you please mark, for example, the secondary school of

24     economics.

25        A.   It's here above number 16.  I will mark it with the letters EC,

Page 7900

 1     which stands for the school of economics.

 2        Q.   Can you mark the building where Belami [phoen] is housed.

 3        A.   This is this long building here and I will put letter B.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now mark the place where the incident took

 5     place as accurately as you possibly can.

 6        A.   Well, approximately it happened here.  I will mark the general

 7     area up to the intersection between Bratstvo, Jedinstvo, and Vojvode

 8     Putnika streets.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you mark the green building that was originally

10     suspected as the origin of fire?

11        A.   No, I cannot do that.  I know that on the other side there is 27

12     July street.

13        Q.   Can you mark the place of incident with number 1 because

14     previously you used letters.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Can you draw a parallel green line indicating Wilson's

17     promenade --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This exchange is too fast.

19     We cannot cope.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Interpreters couldn't follow you

21     from a while ago because you were so fast.

22             So we have number 1, we'll start from there.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this the incident place, Mr. Sabljica?

25        A.   Well, let's suppose that it is in this map at least.

Page 7901

 1        Q.   This street which is now called Hamdije Camelica [phoen] street

 2     used to be called Bratstvo Jedinstvo street?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is this the Bratstvo and Jedinstvo bridge?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, the Bratstvo and Jedinstvo bridge.

 6        Q.   You marked the school of economics with a green circle and number

 7     16; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Since everything else seems to be marked, tell me what this blue

10     line along the Wilson's promenade signified?

11        A.   It signifies the defence line of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12        Q.   Thank you.  How did the units defend themselves there?  How were

13     they deployed?  Did they build trenches and were they deployed in

14     buildings, residential buildings, as well?

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.  I don't think this is for this witness

16     to answer.

17             JUDGE KWON:  If --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, that was the

19     area of the unit that Mr. Sabljica was a member of, that was the 101st

20     Brigade.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sabljica, can you answer the question, if you

22     can?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I'll answer the

24     question.  We had both trenches and indoor positions, that is to say in

25     the cellars of the mechanical engineering faculty, the school of

Page 7902

 1     economics, and another faculty building, and we had exits that connected

 2     them with the trenches.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   [No interpretation]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the question.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did the Army of Republika Srpska fortify themselves in a similar

 9     fashion and did they defend themselves in the same way, by using trenches

10     along the river and firing positions in cellars?

11        A.   I don't know about that because I wasn't at Grbavica during the

12     war, but I can only assume that that was the case.  There was no other

13     alternative.

14        Q.   Now, the Wilson's promenade stretches from Bratstvo Jedinstvo as

15     far as the Vrbanja bridge.  Can you mark it.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Since we have the inscription "Vilsonovo Setaliste," promenade,

18     we do not need to mark it.  Now, can you please put a circle around the

19     Unioninvest building close to the Vrbanja bridge.

20        A.   I'll do that.

21        Q.   Do you agree that it was the control of the BH Army?

22        A.   That is the case according to this map.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Sabljica, had you ever had an opportunity to

24     investigate what we call sniping incidents that took place along the

25     Wilson's promenade?

Page 7903

 1        A.   Yes, in a building close to the Vrbanja bridge a little girl was

 2     killed in a flat, and I think that was part of the General Milosevic's

 3     case.

 4        Q.   That happened inside the flat?

 5        A.   Yes, this little girl was shot inside the flat.

 6        Q.   But outdoors where you can see the civilians, did you carry out

 7     any investigations?

 8        A.   Look, when there was a conflict going on nobody strolled up and

 9     down the Wilson's promenade.  You couldn't even see a bird flying.

10        Q.   We shall see about that -- see the documents of BH Army.  Can you

11     put the line indicating the streets Franjo Racko and Djure Danicic.  So

12     Djure Danicic street is between the Assembly building?

13        A.   Franjo Racko and Djure Danicic, should I put letters FR and DD.

14        Q.   If you cannot mark the suspect green building, can you mark the

15     high-rise building at Grbavica?

16        A.   Yes, I can do that and I'll place the letter N, which stands for

17     skyscraper.

18        Q.   If one assumes that fire came, which kind of range and what

19     degrees would you attach to this but provided you were not able to

20     position the tram where it was?

21        A.   I wouldn't speculate.  It says the angle was with respect to the

22     side of the tram.

23        Q.   But you definitely agree that between this high-rise building and

24     the incident place there were both positions of the BH Army and the Army

25     of Republika Srpska; is that correct?

Page 7904

 1        A.   Yes, of course.  One can see that, it's so obvious.

 2        Q.   In a tram that had its windows shut because it was cold, was it

 3     possible for one to hear shots coming from this skyscraper or would these

 4     shots be better heard from the building where Belami was?

 5        A.   It would be hard to hear any kind of gun-shots in a closed tram.

 6     You know how loud trams are.  I don't think that they heard the gun-shots

 7     at all.  They felt the impact when the tram was hit, those who were hit

 8     in the tram.

 9        Q.   Could you please put a U by the Unioninvest building and then the

10     date and your signature, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D765, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I'm going to ask whether we are

16     going to be working until 2.00 then, are we?

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's impossible.  Another Bench is sitting

18     today.  We have to rise at quarter to 2.00.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D1958 then.  1D1958.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can I ask you to have us identify this together.  This is a

22     bulletin from the time when you left the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes, I left a month before this.  This is the 29th of July, so

25     that would be it roughly.  I had already joined the police by then.

Page 7905

 1        Q.   Thank you.  The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the staff of the

 2     Supreme Command of the armed forces, the security department.  Is that

 3     what it says here?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, that is what is written on this document.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page now,

 6     please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you please read this first paragraph.

 9        A.   "On the 26th of July, 1993, a group of civilians at the Wilson

10     promenade were cutting trees in front of the positions of HVO units.  It

11     is indicative that the aggressor was not firing, although they had

12     clearly visible objectives before them.  The soldiers of the HVO drove

13     away the civilians at the intervention of the soldiers of the 10th bbr

14     and the aggressor opened fire only after the civilians had left."

15             Do you want me to read the rest?

16        Q.   No, the rest doesn't matter.  Do you agree that this is a

17     document of the intelligence service of our adversaries at the time, and

18     they noted that the Serbs could fire across the river whenever they

19     wanted to but they started firing only when the civilians had left?

20        A.   Well, that is what is written here.  You can see it for yourself.

21     That's the only thing that I can confirm, nothing else.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, I don't think the witness actually

25     added anything material to the document itself.

Page 7906

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document does speak of

 2     developments at the time.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We agree with Mr. Gaynor's information.  Five

 5     minutes to conclude for today, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, may I ask you who

 7     we should catch and bring in here to have this document admitted?

 8     Mr. Sabljica was there, he's familiar with the area and their own

 9     intelligence service, military intelligence service, says this.  He deals

10     with the same developments like the ones that have been dealt with so

11     far, firing at civilians.  So there is no Holiday Inn, there are no

12     journalists, nobody could see this.  They could have killed everyone,

13     they did not.  So this does speak of what was happening and it speaks of

14     the situation as it was.  We should perhaps catch Halilovic or someone to

15     tell us about this and bring them here but --

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, this is -- you've had a ruling

17     from the President and he's told you to continue.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Now, all -- the points raised by the Prosecution is

19     that it is not appropriate to admit this document through this witness.

20     There may be other ways for you to tender it.  Even you can consider a

21     bar table motion if necessary.  Move on, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, I would like

23     to ask that the Defence be given the possibility to reply to everything

24     stated by the Prosecution before a decision is made.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Move on, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 7907

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] We will have to deal with Markale

 2     a bit as well, although I'm convinced that you did not take part in the

 3     explosion.  You took part in the investigation of the explosion.  Isn't

 4     that right?  I'm referring to the slip of the tongue made by Mr. Gaynor.

 5        A.   Of course I took part in the investigation.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter number

 7     09622.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P1708.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While we're waiting, can you tell us when you arrived and at

11     whose orders.  When did you arrive to Markale market?

12        A.   Kanlic, Asim was the name of the investigating judge who ordered

13     us to come and we arrived at 1325 hours and we worked until 1600 hours,

14     and that is what it says here in the report that you see.

15        Q.   Thank you.  That was after the incident, but how much time had

16     elapsed?

17        A.   So it was less than an hour, 55 minutes, because what happened

18     happened at 20 past 12.00.

19        Q.   Do you agree that an investigation is supposed to start as soon

20     as possible so that the findings would be as accurate as possible?

21        A.   It depends on the circumstances involved, how fast you can get

22     there.  But I do agree in principle, yes, it's right.

23        Q.   When you arrived had the evacuation already taken place of the

24     wounded and the dead?

25        A.   Yes, the evacuation had been completed and there were no wounded

Page 7908

 1     or killed persons.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             According to your own observations, in which part of the market

 4     could there have been the highest concentration of people and goods?

 5        A.   To tell you the truth, I didn't really pay attention to that.  I

 6     think that throughout the market there were some goods, some things were

 7     being sold.  Usually that was the only place where people could buy

 8     alcohol, oil, sugar, things that could not -- were in short supply in

 9     Sarajevo.

10        Q.   Do you remember the street of the 22nd of December that is up

11     there neighbouring Dzenetica Cikma, so it links Dzenetica Cikma and Tito

12     street.  Do you remember that even outside the stalls there were lots of

13     goods that were being sold on the sidewalk in front of the vendors?

14     That's the way it is until the present day as far as I can remember.

15        A.   Yes, people sell all sorts of things.  It was cigarettes that

16     were being sold mostly at the time and also some vegetables and cardboard

17     boxes.

18        Q.   Did you observe, apart from alcohol and tobacco, what other goods

19     were dominant in the market?

20        A.   Sugar, oil, I don't know, some vegetables, different kinds of

21     goods because at the time under such circumstances this market was no

22     longer a classical green market.  You could find supplies that were in

23     short supply in town.  I'm referring to sugar, oil, et cetera.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there any time left?

Page 7909

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll stop here.  We'll adjourn for today.

 2             I'd like to remind you, Mr. Karadzic, it is your responsibility

 3     to pass on to the Prosecution as well as to the Chamber the list of

 4     documents you are going to use during the cross-examination before your

 5     cross-examination begins.  I just tell you that it is totally

 6     inappropriate for you to disclose every ten minutes through e-mail the

 7     list of new documents as if we are being drip fed.  Bear that in mind in

 8     the future.

 9             We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00 and you will have about 20 minutes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may just say a word.  I fully

11     accept your criticism, but the tempo and rhythm of this trial is such

12     that my whole team is totally beaten and I am just asking for

13     understanding from the opposite side, and I promise that the Defence will

14     display the same degree of understanding.

15             JUDGE KWON:  9.00 tomorrow.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of

18                           October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.