Page 7910
1 Thursday, 14 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody.
7 Mr. Karadzic, let's finish your cross-examination.
8 WITNESS: MIRZA SABLJICA [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, everyone.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Sabljica.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Yesterday, we discussed the fact that the investigation at
15 Markale started after the killed and the wounded were removed and after a
16 certain degree of intervention on the site.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
18 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to object to that question. The evidence,
19 I think, is that Mr. Sabljica arrived after the killed and the wounded
20 had been removed. The evidence is not that the investigation only
21 started at that point. It concerned the arrival of this particular
22 person.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We could understand that, but let's
24 continue.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 7911
1 Q. Can you tell us to what extent the site had been changed before
2 you arrived.
3 A. As far as I remember, the site was secured by the policemen and
4 the police administration of Stari Grad at the time when we arrived, and
5 the whole place was sealed off. As far as the stalls at the market were
6 concerned, the chaos was complete. Everything was scattered, with
7 bloodstains all over, body parts. I cannot say what it looked like
8 exactly when the shell just fell. I can tell you what it looked like
9 when I arrived: The stalls had been overturned. Everything was on the
10 ground. Body parts, tissue. And the place was sealed off by police
11 tape. It was done by the police administration of Stari Grad.
12 Q. When you just arrived, what was the extent of changes to the site
13 that you found?
14 A. I don't really understand your question. What changes? What we
15 found was the state of affairs that we established. Apart from the fact
16 that the bodies of the wounded and dead bodies were removed, everything
17 else was the same.
18 Q. So the only change was that the bodies of people and people were
19 removed. Everything else was the same.
20 When you arrived at the site, did you find the tail fin in the
21 crater?
22 A. Not straight away. When we approached the site where the shell
23 landed, when we located the crater, we could not see the tail fin in it.
24 We could see a lot on that first footage that we saw. The investigating
25 judge told us then to pay more attention to the place where the shell
Page 7912
1 landed, and I think after clearing the surface layer of tarmac by hand
2 and after the scenes of crime officer removed parts of body tissue and
3 that surface part of the tarmac, we cleared the crater but we still
4 didn't find the -- or take out the tail fin before the arrival of the
5 UNPROFOR, and you could see on the footage that the UNPROFOR officer took
6 out the tail fin.
7 Q. He removed the tail fin the day after.
8 A. No. It was the day when we did the on-site investigation, not
9 the next day. They arrived the same day.
10 Q. We discussed a little yesterday the distribution of goods and the
11 concentration on the very plateau of the market, and we had no time to
12 present a full picture where the most goods were concentrated and where
13 most of the buyers were thronged.
14 A. Most of the people were circulating all over the compound and the
15 market, because people thought the market was safe, relatively safe,
16 being sheltered by surrounding buildings. You know that there was the
17 supermarket UPI there also and some people were selling some goods
18 inside. So it was quite packed. I cannot tell you really that there
19 were more people in the left corner or in the right corner. People were
20 circulating all over the market.
21 Q. What were your first steps in that investigation? Probably the
22 description of the site and then certain investigative steps. I suppose
23 the first ones were focused on finding the tail fin and the identifying
24 parts of the shell.
25 A. First of all came the analysis of the crater, to apply that basic
Page 7913
1 method I explained to determine the direction, the remnants of the shell,
2 and the remaining procedure was followed with the presence of the
3 investigating judge, I believe Mr. Kandic. The standard procedure that
4 we applied in such instance.
5 Q. Did it turn out that the tail fin was inside the crater after you
6 seriously cleared the crater?
7 A. Yes. And we measured the depth from the surface of the tarmac
8 until the depth where the tail fin was stuck. We located the peripheral
9 shape scarred traces. That depth was 9 centimetres. It was impossible
10 to use the chalk to draw, because it was rather wet and bloodstained.
11 And we removed the impurities as far as we could, so we used the sticks
12 from our kit to create the standard schematic that we've reviewed over
13 the past few days to determine the azimuth, the direction of descent, to
14 create the documentation and write up our findings.
15 Q. In those comprehensive investigating steps, did you also proceed
16 to determine the direction from which the shell came and the angle of
17 descent? Was that also written up?
18 A. We did determine the direction, but I'm not sure we determined
19 the angle of descent. The direction from which the shell came was
20 established according to the well-known method. It was 18 degrees -- or,
21 rather, 320 mils, approximately, although we didn't have the artillery
22 compass to measure it in mils, but the degree of the angle of descent was
23 18 degrees. I think it's in the report.
24 Q. There are certain curiosities about Markale that we have to clear
25 up. Did you in your first contact with the site determine the angle of
Page 7914
1 descent?
2 A. Not in the first contact. That time we dealt exclusively with
3 the direction from which the shell could have come. Later, expert teams,
4 local and international ones, proceeded to investigate. I had occasion
5 to see some of their reports, and they dealt more with the other
6 elements, including the angle of descent. The most important thing is
7 that we all established that the shell was detonated on impact with the
8 tarmac, and this tail fin was found, which we did not touch until the
9 arrival of the French UNPROFOR battalion.
10 Q. How do you explain that the first contact of the fuse with the
11 hot surface was on the stall, according to some, whereas others say it
12 was upon impact on the hard surface? How can you explain this
13 discrepancy?
14 A. I'm not aware that anyone claims it exploded on the stall. I can
15 say with certainty it exploded when it hit the tarmac. Before that, it
16 did not touch any hard surface.
17 Q. So you then determined the direction from which the shell could
18 have come, you did not establish the angle of descent, and then you
19 proceeded with your investigation the next day -- or, rather,
20 investigation continued the next day.
21 A. Yes, except I did not come the next day because my part of the
22 job and the job of the late Cavcic was finished at that point at Markale.
23 We continued to work in the lab, writing up a more detailed report,
24 preparing the documentation, et cetera. Other teams came out on the site
25 later, and I was not a member of the teams that continued in the days
Page 7915
1 that followed to deal with the Markale case.
2 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.
3 THE WITNESS: Your microphone is not on.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. How come that among you who first came to the site and collected
6 certain evidence were excluded from the follow-up work, although the team
7 still needed a ballistics expert? Was it perhaps that someone did not
8 like what you wrote in your report?
9 A. I do not know the answer to that question. I never asked, and
10 nobody ever answered it. But if you ask about our report and our
11 findings, it is pretty much consistent with the findings of, let's say,
12 an international team of military experts concerning the direction and
13 the deviations in azimuth. I think there was a Major Smith or a colonel,
14 an Irishman, who headed the one team. They used the artillery compass
15 and determined the angle of descent at 360 mils. Now, why teams were
16 engaged that did not include us were engaged, I don't know. I know that
17 one mechanical engineer from the university was engaged. He taught
18 rocket engineering. And there were also experts from the MUP, from the
19 counter-sabotage team, from the bomb squad, and there was also a French
20 colonel part of that team. Now, why we did not continue in the follow-up
21 work, after all, we completed our job in those four hours on the market,
22 what we found was enough for the report that we normally write, including
23 the methods and the tool kit that we had that enabled us to complete our
24 assignment.
25 Q. This second investigation was led by Mr. Zecevic, a forensic
Page 7916
1 expert, and other forensic experts in his team.
2 A. Yes. He was also a professor at the mechanical engineering
3 faculty, and he was engaged by the court.
4 Q. When did you submit your report and to whom?
5 A. We finished our report the very same day, late at night, I
6 believe, around 8.00 p.m., after we returned to our office. We made our
7 report. The photo documentation had already been prepared. The whole
8 file was forwarded to the competent prosecutor's office in Sarajevo,
9 whatever it was called, the court, and the whole case was prepared and an
10 indictment was brought against unidentified persons for murder and
11 grievous bodily injury.
12 It was the usual procedure in view of the number of casualties at
13 Markale. We adhered strictly to the standard procedure of the police.
14 Q. Thank you. Who established the coordinates in those later
15 reports? You sized up the situation before Zecevic came, and then he
16 showed up on the scene. Who authorises all these findings? Who verifies
17 these findings, both yours and his?
18 A. I said our findings were sent directly to the prosecutor's
19 office, and his findings were probably included in that case file as
20 additional evidence, but that did not really concern me. I had completed
21 my part of the job, and I was no longer engaged in any way. The first
22 next time I had anything to do with it was to testify against
23 General Galic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up a diagram,
25 ERN 1025-920. 02115 -- 65 ter 10616. Page 4 in this document.
Page 7917
1 JUDGE KWON: No microphone.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Could we please have on
3 the other half of the screen parallel to this 65 ter number 096 -- 9623.
4 Maybe it's going to be easier this way, if we have two parallel
5 texts on the screen. 65 ter 9623. The first page first, and then
6 page 3. Also, on the other half of the screen 65 ter 10676, page 4.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think it's impossible because we
8 have both English and B/C/S version. So it's impossible to show four
9 documents at the same time. Why don't we go one by one. And I would
10 like to tell you that -- to try to conclude your evidence -- your
11 cross-examination.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then do it individually.
13 65 ter 9623.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This, Your Honours, is Exhibit Number P1440.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then page 3 on this document. This
16 is what I'd like to recommend now: That the health service look into the
17 temperature in this courtroom. I think that in addition to stress,
18 tension, concentration, that the temperature in this room can be a source
19 of health problems.
20 Now page 3.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. If this is page 3, please have a look at page 3.
23 A. I know this diagram. I worked on it together with the forensic
24 technician, Beslic. It is a sketch of the site, a bird's-eye view.
25 Q. Are north and south marked?
Page 7918
1 A. North is marked. That is the shorter vector, the shorter arrow.
2 It denotes the north. The other arrow denotes the direction from which
3 the shell came and also the angle, 320 mils or 18 degrees. C is the
4 centre of explosion, and the rest are buildings in the surrounding area.
5 1, 2 is the supermarket. If you remember that supermarket in Sarajevo,
6 it's still the same. Number 5 is the building known as the 22nd of
7 December, "dvadesetdrugog decembra." I don't know what it's called now.
8 As for these squares, one is number 3. Those are the market
9 stalls. And you have view A down here. You have the dimensions of the
10 stall.
11 Q. This is what all the stalls looked like; right?
12 A. Well, it's an ideal picture, idealised, if I can put it that way.
13 It doesn't represent the actual situation as it was. It was important to
14 see where the solid objects were. Stalls can be moved; right? So the
15 centre of the explosion is focused on the supermarket building. And if
16 you see there by the market, 1.420 millimetres --
17 Q. We won't be able to deal with all of Markale with you because you
18 worked only on one part, but the team that you worked with and with whom
19 you exchanged findings, well, could you please try to help us, explain
20 what this space was, and some of your findings and some of Zecevic's
21 commission's findings are identical, aren't they?
22 A. Well, they should be. As for the direction from which the shell
23 came, I'm sure they're identical. The dimensions, the positions of the
24 centre of the explosion that, should be identical, because we use the
25 same measuring bands to this day. There is a memorial plaque there, and
Page 7919
1 for a long time on the asphalt it was marked. I mean the place where the
2 shell fell was still marked by that red substance we talked about
3 yesterday. The memorial plaque is still there.
4 Q. Thank you. In order to show that the results of findings are the
5 same in a particular investigation, it is best to show the sketch that
6 you signed. 65 ter is 09623, page 3.
7 A. That's the sketch. We have it on the screen.
8 JUDGE KWON: That's what we are seeing on the left side.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 10676,
10 Zecevic's sketch. Page 5.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Is this Zecevic's diagram of the scene?
13 A. I don't know. I didn't draw it. I've never seen it before.
14 This is the first time I see it.
15 Q. However, it is part of the investigation material, isn't it?
16 A. Yes, that's right, we've confirmed that. But Zecevic submitted
17 this later, upon instructions from the court. He was engaged for an
18 additional expertise, to provide an expert opinion. You see that it
19 corresponds the angle of descent, 18 degrees, the position of the crater,
20 and so on. That's how we marked it too. I don't see any difference
21 really.
22 Q. I see. Can you mark the cardinal points here and also the basic
23 areas -- or, rather, the basic relationships.
24 A. Here's the north, N. I'm just going to put a circle around it.
25 So the south is opposite, and then east and west. The buildings are
Page 7920
1 fixed. You can read it for yourself here what the dimensions are. It's
2 in metres, all the distances. From the edge of the supermarket to the
3 edge of the sidewalk. Again, this is a bird's-eye view, the 22nd of
4 December building. I think that the sketch is quite clear.
5 Q. Is it generally accepted?
6 A. You're asking me?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. That is a technical sketch, a technical drawing that is part of a
9 documentation which can always assist someone who wants to find the place
10 of explosion, and therefore it can be related to fixed objects and you
11 see where north is and also the direction from which the shell came. As
12 such, it is part of documentation, isn't it.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell us whether axes can be shown on this diagram.
14 A. This is the longer vector, and that shows the longer axis,
15 because that is actually the direction from which the shell came. And
16 we've dealt with that over these past three or four days. It's already
17 drawn here. If you wish, I'm going to mark it more prominently.
18 Q. So that it's clearer for us when we look at it again.
19 A. Here it is, the direction from which the shell came. It's marked
20 with a V.
21 Q. Thank you. Can we now see what the orientation is of this part?
22 A. Oh, I see. In relation to well-known streets in Sarajevo.
23 That's what you mean.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. This down here is the former Tito Street. It has a new name now.
Page 7921
1 I'm going to put TS here for Tito Street.
2 Q. What direction is this street? Blue, perhaps, for these
3 localities.
4 A. So Tito Street goes from the east to the west. This is it. It's
5 a bit to the south-east in relation to the point of impact. That is Tito
6 Street.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, do we not have the English translation
8 of this page?
9 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I believe so. I'll have a look for it right
10 now.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Now, Mr. Sabljica, how would we determine the cardinal points
13 here in relation to these elements of the streets and these passageways
14 between the market stalls in relation to this entire layout of the market
15 and the neighbouring streets?
16 A. Well, it's already set. You see here I've drawn it, where the
17 west, where the east is, et cetera. If you wish, Tito Street does not
18 exactly go from east to west. There is a bit of an angle there. So it
19 is south-west towards the north-east in relation to the point of impact
20 on the market. You know that Tito Street is underneath, and it's in the
21 upper right-hand corner by the 22nd of December building that the
22 incident took place, right by the UPI supermarket, if you remember that
23 area.
24 Q. The upper right hand --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
Page 7922
1 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President. The -- we have an English
2 translation of the key to this diagram, and it's 65 ter number 10676, and
3 it's the last page in the English.
4 JUDGE KWON: Page 83.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we can first have this drawing
6 admitted, and then we're going to proceed.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. However, Mr. Sabljica, if you could mark the point of impact of
9 the shell. Vertically it is north-south; right?
10 A. I've marked it. Can't you see? North-south. And this is the
11 impact here, impact place. So you see that there is a circle there
12 around the point of explosion, and you have the cardinal points.
13 Q. It was in the south-eastern corner of Markale, right, the
14 explosion?
15 A. It depends on how your you're viewing the Markale Market. If
16 you're viewing it from Tito Street, then it's up in the north-east
17 quadrant if you're standing in Tito Street. Now we are viewing
18 everything in relation to the point of explosion. If you're looking at
19 Markale Market, you're standing on Tito Street; right? The explosion
20 took place in the north-eastern part of the market. That is to say, the
21 upper right-hand corner. So the supermarket is on some steps, and then
22 there's a passageway between the market and the 22nd of December
23 building, there's a bit of a sidewalk, and then the first or second row
24 of the market stalls, that's where the shell fell.
25 Is it a bit clearer now?
Page 7923
1 Q. It's clear to me, but I'm afraid that if Tito Street is the basis
2 of this photograph -- or, rather, of this drawing, as we're going to see
3 on photographs, then the explosion would have to be on a diagonal on the
4 other end of this same diagonal; right? So if this is the market that
5 we're viewing from Tito Street, then the explosion would have to be in a
6 corner that's opposite to this one. Do you agree?
7 A. I do not agree. I'm going to repeat once again. The 22nd
8 December building stretches to the east in the Markale square. If you go
9 to Titova Street, and the tram starts from the cathedral, there are two
10 butcher shops there and another bakery shop, you turn the corner and you
11 reach the Markale. You can enter it from that side or you can enter it
12 from the upper side. So normally you have people there, vendors with
13 boxes on this corner because there's no traffic there except for delivery
14 vans for the supermarket. So that would be in the right-hand corner of
15 Markale if viewed from this street. So I'm talking about Markale I.
16 That's how we used to call it.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes Mr. Gaynor.
18 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to correct my earlier reference. It's
19 P1440, and it's page 6 of the English.
20 JUDGE KWON: Page 6.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Could you change the colour to black.
23 THE WITNESS: To black.
24 JUDGE KWON: If you can. Could you mark which building is 22nd
25 December building.
Page 7924
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll put 22 on this building.
2 It's only part of it because it goes all the way to Titova Street.
3 JUDGE KWON: If you could indicate the area of the Markale and
4 the market.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the marketplace is within this
6 quadrant, like this. This is the passage between the building 22
7 December and the marketplace itself where the stalls are located. So I
8 can mark it with the words "green market."
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 We'll admit this.
11 Mr. Karadzic, I take it you're almost finished your
12 cross-examination.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have reduced the scope of
14 the questions that I intended to ask of Mr. Sabljica with regard to
15 Markale. We shall have other witnesses to testify about Markale, but I
16 would like to ask Mr. Sabljica this:
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. For example, Mr. Sabljica, why you and the other colleague of
19 yours were not on the team the following day.
20 A. I think I already answered that, Mr. Karadzic. They did not call
21 us again because there -- it was deemed that we had finished our police
22 task by that time.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this sketch been admitted into
24 evidence?
25 JUDGE KWON: That will be done.
Page 7925
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D766.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 10455.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Who made this sketch that has now just been removed?
5 A. It was done by Berko Zecevic, and you asked me if I recognised it
6 as such. I said that I don't know whether it was done by him, but the
7 measurements and the angles are identical to the ones that we did.
8 JUDGE KWON: How much longer do you need, Mr. Karadzic? Your
9 time is up some time ago.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that if I really do my
11 best, I can finish within the next 20 minutes.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, all these questions put to the witness
14 could be done with another witness. I think you can conclude by 10.00.
15 Conclude by 10.00.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Sabljica, this sketch was made by whom?
18 A. As I said, it was done by Berko Zecevic. That's what you asked
19 me. When you asked me if it was him, I said that I didn't know. All I
20 can say, that it was a rather precise sketch. It includes the angles and
21 the features identical to the ones that I included in my sketch.
22 Q. Do you see these stalls in the bottom part?
23 A. I can see that the stalls are 0.76 centimetres [as interpreted]
24 and 1.5 metres.
25 Q. So they're identical to the ones that you made?
Page 7926
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that identical to the actual stall?
3 A. Well, we measured the height and the width of the stall on the
4 spot with a measuring tape. They should be.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09620.
6 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, Mr. Gaynor, I would like you to
7 check if we have the correct English page. The page you indicated is a
8 translation of -- of Mr. Sabljica's drawing, not Mr. Zecevic's drawing.
9 MR. GAYNOR: My apologies, Mr. President. We'll check that.
10 THE REGISTRAR: This has been admitted as Exhibit P1709.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 6 of this
13 document, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Are you familiar with this document, Mr. Sabljica?
16 A. Yes, I am. This is the photo file prepared by Sead Besic, the
17 scene of crime officer who was on the spot and who was a member of the
18 team.
19 Q. Let's now look at page 6. How do you explain the difference in
20 the shape of the stall that you portrayed in the sketch of the site and
21 the actual shape of the stall that we can see on the photograph?
22 A. I'm going to mark the sizes with a pen on this black and white
23 photograph, if you agree.
24 JUDGE KWON: We collapse the English page. We don't need the
25 one. We zoom into the picture once again. We don't need the caption.
Page 7927
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But if it's made brighter, it
2 would be easier.
3 A. No problem. I can use this one, I just want to show you the
4 sizes. So the height of the stall measuring from the ground level up to
5 the top of its roof was 2.1 metres, and the width from the lateral view
6 was 76 centimetres. So this is a lateral view. And this may have
7 confused you because it makes the stall look narrower. I hope this is
8 more clear now. Shall I mark it?
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I think we have enough markings. All we need is your signature
11 along with the explanation.
12 A. So you have the height and the width of the stall viewed
13 laterally, because with respect to where the shell fell, the wider side
14 was facing Titova Street, and this is identical to the sketch that both
15 Zecevic and I made. I just want to make it clear that this is not a
16 small stall.
17 Q. Do you agree that the roof is wider than the working surface of
18 the stall?
19 A. Of course it is extended 5 centimetres on both sides to protect
20 the vendor from rain, for example.
21 Q. Do you know the size of the roof of the stall?
22 A. If you add 10 centimetres, 5 on each side, that would make it
23 86 centimetres, because the working surface is 76 centimetres. These are
24 standard stalls that are used in all marketplaces.
25 Q. Now, what do we see in this photograph?
Page 7928
1 A. We see the general view of the place where the 120-millimetre
2 shell fell. We see scattered items and produce. We can see blood. We
3 can see broken stalls. That's, I think, what one can see in this
4 photograph. I may have missed something.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted, and then if
7 we can have 65 ter 09620, page 9.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be Exhibit D767.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, we need the same document as
10 before, but we'll only just move out a bit.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you agree -- no. That's a different photograph.
13 Let's say that we can use this photograph nevertheless. What can
14 one see in this photograph? This is determined in the direction by
15 applying the method that has already been explained. This method should
16 be analysed.
17 Can you tell me, does the right stick has to go upwards, the left
18 has to go downwards in order to determine the direction? Can you please
19 tell me, what can you deduce from this photograph?
20 A. I'm not understanding what you're saying at all. What do you
21 mean left or right? This is just a close-up of the crater, and this
22 white strip indicates the direction from which the shell came. The
23 traces were so dispersed along the poles of the narrower ellipse so that
24 we only had this position, similar to letter T. So if we look at it in
25 perspective, I think that it's self-explanatory, because the methodology
Page 7929
1 has already been explained in detail as well as by other experts who are
2 dealing with this type of projectile when they want to determine the
3 direction and the orientation.
4 I don't know what you find incomprehensible here.
5 Q. There is an omission. The witness said 180 degrees, so this
6 should be included in the record, or maybe we can ask the witness to
7 repeat it.
8 A. I was referring to the angle formed by the traces from the flank
9 from the radial. This is not the deviation angle from the north. That
10 angle was --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness repeat the last angle, please.
12 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your last sentence.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It refers to the angle reached by
14 connecting ultimate poles of the longer part of the ellipsis which then,
15 in this particular case, forms a 180-degree angle, and in the drawing and
16 by using the compass, it grows out to be 18 degrees north-north-east, or
17 320 mils.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Mr. Karadzic, your last question.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Once again with your leave, a
21 general question. Can we have page 6 of this same document.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Sabljica, can you please --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the one. Yes. Can we
25 zoom in, please.
Page 7930
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is this the view from Titova Street, from the south to the north?
3 A. I am not able to confirm that judging by this photograph. I
4 can't see clearly. I think that this was viewed from the 22nd December
5 building. There might be some caption saying where the photograph was
6 taken.
7 Q. Can you mark in this photograph the place of impact?
8 A. No, I cannot. I can't see it. I tried to find it, but this
9 photograph is not clear enough. It shows just a general view of the
10 situation that we found at Markale marketplace immediately after the
11 casualties were removed.
12 Q. Before the casualties were removed, was any medical analysis or
13 forensic analysis carried out of the site?
14 A. Are you referring to the coroner's and other forensic experts
15 investigating the wounds and other damage to the casualties? No. That
16 was done at the Kosevo Hospital, because the situation was chaotic.
17 People were brought in in all kinds of vehicles, including trucks,
18 because that was a total massacre.
19 Q. According to your opinion, can anyone mark anything in this
20 photograph?
21 A. In my opinion, anything that could be relevant for the point of
22 impact and determination of some technical parameters, it's impossible.
23 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you as an honest professional,
24 Mr. Sabljica. On the assumption that you believe in the same principles,
25 namely that those ethnic groups there should reconcile mutually, would it
Page 7931
1 be better for them to reconcile this year or next year?
2 A. Well, I regret it very much that they were ever at war. As a
3 person who considers himself a Bosnian, I see all those peoples as one,
4 and would I like my homeland, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and all the people
5 who live in it to live a life of prosperity, to become a part of Europe.
6 Regardless of our ethnic differences, I believe we have so much in common
7 that with a little more goodwill we could make much more progress.
8 Q. Do we agree that an erroneously established situation after any
9 incident and false blaming of one or another party would make -- push
10 that reconciliation further away and make it more difficult to restore
11 peace?
12 JUDGE KWON: Speculation on the part of the witness is not
13 helpful. It's not for the witness to answer the question. I take it you
14 conclude your cross-examination.
15 Before we further go on, I have to ask how -- how you are
16 feeling, Mr. Karadzic. Before I entered the courtroom, I was advised
17 that you were not feeling well, and the court deputy observed that you
18 are from time to time dozing. You seem to feel drowsy. How are you?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's residual from that
20 cold that I had, but I thought Mr. Sabljica should not be kept waiting,
21 because just a few questions remain till we clear this up, and I believe
22 I can get better. I think, among other things, that this courtroom is a
23 bit colder than it should be, because I have to make an effort three
24 times an hour and a half, like mongoose and cobras I remain immobile. I
25 have to be very focused and I'm fighting for time, and then I suffer back
Page 7932
1 pain and muscle pain that I have to deal with somehow. That's all.
2 Well, the first and obvious thing to do is to see whether this
3 room temperature is adequate.
4 JUDGE KWON: I think that the Registry is looking into the
5 matter.
6 So I take it that you conclude your cross-examination.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, according to my time-tested
8 custom, I think I was interrupted, because I think we could have elicited
9 much more professional and unbiased knowledge from this witness.
10 I thank him for his co-operation, and my questions were not
11 unguided missiles. They were more in the spirit of believing that it is
12 the duty of all of us to ensure that reconciliation occurs this year, not
13 next year, not in a decade. And for that reason, Mr. Sabljica, thank you
14 for the effort you invested, and it would be very good if we all invested
15 more efforts to clear up everything that is unclear.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
18 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
21 Q. Mr. Sabljica, I'm going to ask you a few questions which arose
22 out of the cross-examination. The first subject I'm going to turn to is
23 the question of sniper nests. Now, for the benefit of the other
24 participants, at page 7707, on the 11th of October, the transcript,
25 Mr. Sabljica, refers to some questions from Mr. Karadzic. He asked you:
Page 7933
1 "Do you recall when Grbavica was reintegrated, as you put it,
2 when we handed Grbavica over to you?
3 "A. I think that was at the end of February or beginning of March
4 1996.
5 "Q. You said here that in these skyscrapers, one of the four, you
6 had found something that would correspond to sniper nests; right?
7 "A. That's right."
8 Just stopping there for a moment, was it just one of the four
9 skyscrapers that you found something that would correspond to sniper
10 nests?
11 A. No. I think I was clear enough. All of these four could have
12 been it. We did not look at every apartment, but we looked at all floors
13 upwards of ten in all the four skyscrapers.
14 Q. Now, at page 7709, Mr. Karadzic asked you:
15 "Was that dealt with? I mean, the crime scene. Was it dealt
16 with properly? Were photographs taken, et cetera?
17 "A. I'm sure, but I never saw this. I asked why not, but I never
18 received any information in this regard."
19 Later on Mr. Karadzic asked you:
20 "Was this photographed?"
21 And you said:
22 "Yes."
23 And then Mr. Karadzic asked:
24 "Do you -- do we have them?"
25 Do you recall that exchange?
Page 7934
1 A. I do. But I don't have these photographs. If I had, I would
2 have turned them over to the authorities. I was just a member of the
3 team which did that police work. I was an employee.
4 Q. Thank you. You've --
5 A. And still am.
6 Q. You've brought us on to the next set of documents. Could I ask
7 for 65 ter 2 --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just before we move on. How long would you expect
9 your redirect to last?
10 MR. GAYNOR: It should last approximately 45 minutes. That's an
11 approximation.
12 JUDGE KWON: I suggest to have a break now, and the technician
13 will take a look into the temperature matters.
14 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Before we adjourn I would
16 like to raise one scheduling matter. This was to some extent
17 foreshadowed earlier. That is Mr. Hamill. The Court will recall we were
18 concerned a bit about his schedule. Mr. Robinson graciously suggested
19 that perhaps it would be better --
20 JUDGE KWON: Not to stop him.
21 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, and I think where we are today, it seems clear
22 that we --
23 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we'll hear him this week.
24 MR. TIEGER: In that regard if we have permission to allow the
25 witness to leave. I understand it would actually be helpful for him to
Page 7935
1 get back home.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour, thank you very much.
4 JUDGE KWON: We will have a break for half an hour. We'll break
5 for half an hour and resume at quarter to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.14 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
11 MR. ROBINSON: I wanted to ask the Chamber if it would be
12 possible to recess after the re-direct examination because Dr. Karadzic
13 is not feeling well and, frankly, I'm observing that he seems under the
14 effects of the medication and really isn't very with it this morning. So
15 I think it would be better for everyone if he was allowed to go back and
16 rest at the detention unit after this witness completes his testimony.
17 JUDGE KWON: Can I ask, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic, this: I
18 raise this just in case. I understand, and I agree that every witness is
19 important, however, given the fact that the next witness will be covering
20 only a limited part, I would like to inquire of you whether it's
21 agreeable to the Defence that the next witness would be cross-examined by
22 one of the legal advisors.
23 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President. I think -- I appreciate that,
24 but for one thing, myself, I'm not in a position to do that because all
25 the preparation is in B/C/S, and also as a matter of principle,
Page 7936
1 Dr. Karadzic's right to self-representation doesn't include that, and we
2 prefer that he cross-examine all of the witnesses. But honestly, he's in
3 no shape to do that. So I'm sorry about that, but I don't think that
4 that would be a feasible alternative.
5 JUDGE KWON: In case an accused is represented and lead counsel
6 is indisposed, the co-counsel may and should be able to lead or
7 cross-examine the witness.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Well, first of all, there's the right to be
9 present, for an accused to be present at his trial. If he's not fit to
10 be even present, then even the lead counsel, co-counsel, or anybody
11 doesn't proceed in his absence without his consent. But I'm not his
12 co-counsel, and he's made it clear that he retains the right to represent
13 himself, so the situation is different.
14 JUDGE MORRISON: It's one of the anomalies of
15 self-representation, isn't it, Mr. Robinson, that if somebody is
16 represented by counsel they almost inevitably have co-counsel. Where
17 somebody self-represents, although they are deemed to be counsel, there
18 is nobody deemed to be co-counsel. I don't know if that's something that
19 could be remedied in the future, but at the moment that seems to be the
20 position.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it's a real burden on the accused, actually,
22 not to have the assistance of someone who could spell him from time to
23 time. But would I note that in the Tolimir case the Trial Chamber was
24 seized of a request by the legal -- or by Tolimir to allow his legal
25 advisor to conduct some cross-examination from time to time, and they
Page 7937
1 rejected that as incompatible with the self-representation of the
2 accused.
3 JUDGE KWON: I was not raising that issue as a matter of
4 principle but whether it could be done on an exceptional basis
5 temporarily.
6 MR. ROBINSON: It may be from time to time, with the consent of
7 Dr. Karadzic, that could be done, but in this particular --
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I was asking whether he could consent to that
9 today, but I think I heard the answer.
10 MR. ROBINSON: If I could also just give you another practical
11 reason beside the principled one, and that is that the preparation for
12 this next witness is entirely in B/C/S by our expert who doesn't speak
13 English and I don't have a familiarity with the material to even be able
14 to do it if Dr. Karadzic was willing to let me.
15 JUDGE KWON: I'm just raising this hypothetically. What about
16 tomorrow's hearing?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think we should keep that
18 hearing scheduled, and hopefully Dr. Karadzic will be feeling better.
19 I'm also prepared to assist him in that hearing so hopefully we can go
20 forward, but if tomorrow morning he's not able to appear I think the
21 inconvenience would be somewhat minimal because the ambassador -- the
22 representative of the Government of Bosnia, the ambassador, is here
23 full-time in the Netherlands, so if we have to postpone the hearing at
24 the last minute, it won't be much of inconvenience to anyone, I don't
25 think. So I think we should try to conduct that hearing as scheduled and
Page 7938
1 if tomorrow morning the situation is different, we can reassess at that
2 time.
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation to make, Mr. Tieger?
4 MR. TIEGER: Let me refrain from broad propositions with respect
5 to the numerous issues raised by the Court, most of which we support and
6 encourage, but I think in this particular situation, obviously the
7 Court's facing a decision about an immediate balance of interest, and I
8 presume what the Court was interested in knowing was whether or not a
9 postponement of this witness's testimony presents some extraordinary
10 logistical implications that the Court needs to be aware of immediately.
11 In that regard, anticipating this possibility, we did raise this issue at
12 the break. I understand that, while clearly not convenient and the
13 witness has been here for some period of time, there are not
14 circumstances which prevent his return or make it so inconvenient that
15 it's an impossibility. So it's matter of balancing the relative interest
16 but there is no particular extraordinary circumstance that I need bring
17 the Court's attention to that would militate dramatically in favour of
18 insistence that we proceed.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
20 Let's proceed your -- with your re-examination, Mr. Gaynor.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I continue, I
22 simply want to note for the record a page reference which you asked me to
23 provide earlier, and the English translation of the sketch by Mr. Zecevic
24 of the Markale I incident appears at page 4 of the English version of
25 65 ter 10676.
Page 7939
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MR. GAYNOR:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Sabljica, as you recall, before the break we were
4 discussing the subject of sniper incidents, and I was just about to call
5 up document 22983, please.
6 Mr. Sabljica, when these documents arrive, you will see that they
7 are a series of 11 investigative reports. Most of them are one page
8 long. And if we can just focus on the very first one. If we just zoom
9 in a little bit. Almost all of the reports are in very much identical
10 format with slightly different details in each of them. This report is
11 dated the 25th of April of 1996. Mr. Sabljica, you see you're named as
12 number 3 in the participants in this investigation; is that right?
13 A. Yes. That's my name under number 3, ballistics expert from the
14 MUP of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. And the introductory part refers to the discovery of a sniper
16 nest at the 13th floor of the skyscraper at number 6A Grbavicka Street;
17 is that right?
18 A. Yes, that's correct. That's written.
19 Q. Before it was renamed Grbavicka street it was Lenjinova Street;
20 is that right?
21 A. Lenin Street.
22 Q. In the final paragraph of this, which is on the next page in the
23 English version, it's on this page in the original, in the final sentence
24 we see the words:
25 "In the room, some 20 bullet cases were found which the
Page 7940
1 ballistics expert established to be of 7.9 millimetre calibre, and some
2 10 bullet cases of 7.62 millimetre calibre."
3 Do you recall your participation in this investigation?
4 A. Well, that's part of this investigation that I explained when we
5 toured the skyscrapers. So I confirm and I know that Mr. Enes Zeljkovic,
6 who was a member of the team, collected this evidence and photographed
7 it, as written here. The site was photographed.
8 Q. If we go to the next page of this document in B/C/S and in
9 English, please. This document is, I think it's fair to say, in almost
10 identical format to the first document, and it refers to the 13th floor
11 of the skyscraper at number 6A Grbavicka Street. This time it's
12 apartment 52. The first document referred to apartment 51. And a sniper
13 nest was found there; is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. There's a reference further down the document to the discovery of
16 20 bullet cases which the ballistics expert established to be of 7.9
17 millimetre calibre. Do you see that?
18 A. I can see that.
19 Q. Now, I don't propose to take you through each and every one of
20 these, but I would like to move to one of the documents refers to
21 location at number 2A Rave Jankovica Street, the 18th floor of that
22 building. That's the second last document in B/C/S, please. And it's
23 the seventh the page from the end in the English version.
24 Mr. Sabljica, this refers to an investigation on the following
25 date, the 26th of April, 1996; is that right?
Page 7941
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Again we see a reference to the discovery of bullet cases for 7.9
3 and 7.62 millimetre calibre. Could you confirm that?
4 A. Yes. It's written here. Late Medjedovic and I were on the team
5 as ballistics experts.
6 Q. In the next document, please, which also dates from the 26th of
7 April, 1996, we see a reference to a similar investigation. In this case
8 you're listed as participant number 4, and the location is the ground
9 floor of 26 Grbavicka Street. Apologies, the location of this place is
10 45 Smederevska Street.
11 A. Smederevska.
12 Q. Thank you. You can recall the locations of the two streets we've
13 just looked at, can you?
14 A. I can.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask -- before we go on, could I ask that
16 this 65 ter be admitted, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1736, Your Honours.
19 MR. GAYNOR: I'd request the registrar to bring up Exhibit P1724.
20 Q. Now, you remember marking this map earlier in your evidence,
21 Mr. Sabljica?
22 A. I remember.
23 Q. Are the four skyscrapers marked with the figure 1, those are the
24 four skyscrapers on Grbavicka Street, formerly known as Lenjinova Street?
25 A. Correct.
Page 7942
1 Q. Would you be able to mark for the Court where Ravje Jankovic
2 street is?
3 JUDGE KWON: Can we use a blue pen?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we zoom in a bit on the lower
5 left corner.
6 Ravje Jankovic Street used to begin here and continued into
7 Grbavica. And the skyscraper, I know exactly where it is; my late sister
8 used to live there. That's the building I'm talking about. Which number
9 do you want me to mark it with?
10 MR. GAYNOR:
11 Q. If you could mark it with number 6, please. In the report we've
12 just looked at we saw the discovery of a sniper nest at the 18th floor of
13 that building. Do you happen to know how many floors it has in total?
14 A. Eighteen, I think. It has also attic premises on the top, like
15 storage space for residents who live upwards of the 10th floor. I think
16 the 18th floor is the last floor.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Gaynor.
18 Mr. Karadzic, I forgot to ask whether the temperature now suits
19 you now.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it's a little better, and I
21 also put something on under my jacket, but I believe it's better.
22 JUDGE KWON: And I want to tell you that you may be excused if
23 you wish, on the understanding that Mr. Robinson will look after your
24 interest.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but we'll stay together.
Page 7943
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's continue, Mr. Gaynor.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Finally, Mr. Sabljica, does Smederevska Street appear on this
4 map?
5 A. Smederevska Street is in Vraca. I don't know what it's called
6 now. You can't see it on this view. It's further to the south. It's a
7 private house in the neighbourhood of Vraca where we conducted an on-site
8 investigation, but that was an anti-aircraft gun, machine-gun, 12.7
9 millimetres, and that machine-gun covered both military sections held by
10 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the streets starting from the
11 intersection with the railway hotel, the Bolnicka Street, the whole part
12 up to the Vrbanja Bridge, and that machine-gun had a very good overview.
13 It was a heavy weapon, not an infantry weapon.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask that this be admitted, the -- the
16 marked-up photograph, either under the same P number or as Your Honours
17 wish.
18 JUDGE KWON: We need to give a separate number because we changed
19 the format. We'll give a separate number. Ah. Could you put the date
20 again, because the date is different, Mr. Sabljica.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do that.
22 JUDGE KWON: That will be Exhibit P1737.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. Could I now ask for
24 65 ter 22982, please.
25 Q. What will appear on your screen in a moment, Mr. Sabljica, is a
Page 7944
1 set of a number of photo documentation files. Again I'm not going to
2 take the Court through every single photograph, I simply want to ask you,
3 Mr. Sabljica, to perhaps explain a couple of them to us.
4 First of all, if you could look at the front of this. We don't
5 actually have an English translation yet. Could you just read out the
6 location of this and the subject of this investigation.
7 A. "Photo documentation. Case: Discovery of a number of sniper
8 emplacements. Place: Sarajevo, Grbavicka Street, numbers 8 through --
9 we cannot see -- formerly Lenin Street. Date of photographs: 25th
10 April, 1996, 13 photographs."
11 Q. Could we go to page 5, please. Could you explain what we're
12 looking at there, Mr. Sabljica.
13 A. Well, we see the view from that place through the hole, as the
14 scenes of crime officer wrote below, showing the zone of action directed
15 at Holiday Inn Hotel, and you can see the hotel in the distance through
16 the opening.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Could we go to page 7, please.
18 Q. Again could you briefly explain what this picture shows.
19 A. It used to be a bedroom in the north-west wing of the building.
20 The opening is of dimensions 20 X 20 centimetres on the northern and
21 western walls of the bedroom, protected by sandbags.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Could we have the next page, please.
23 Q. Again, just briefly tell us what this photograph depicts.
24 A. Casings of 7.62 and 7.9 millimetre calibre.
25 Q. These were found in this location as part of this investigation.
Page 7945
1 Is that what we are to understand?
2 A. Yes. That's the next picture that gives another aspect of this
3 site.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Can we have the next page, please.
5 Q. Just briefly tell us what that is, please.
6 A. That's the view through the opening on the northern wall of the
7 room, showing the area of activity in the direction of the KMT. You can
8 see the railroad -- sorry, the tram tracks in the distance.
9 MR. GAYNOR: That was page 9. Could we now have page 10, please.
10 Q. Tell us briefly what you see there.
11 A. View through the opening on the western wall of the room, showing
12 the activity on Zmaja od Bosne Street, the former Putnik building.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Could I have page 14, please.
14 Q. What do you see in this photograph, Mr. Sabljica?
15 A. View through the said opening, showing the area of activity in
16 the direction of the tram stop Technical School.
17 Q. That's the end of that file. If we just go to the next page,
18 please.
19 JUDGE KWON: While we are going along, Mr. Gaynor, I was
20 wondering why we didn't see these pictures during your direct
21 examination.
22 MR. GAYNOR: That's a fair question, Your Honour. These were not
23 part of Mr. Sabljica's earlier evidence when he previously testified
24 before the Tribunal. Mr. Karadzic expressly asked if there were
25 photographs. He asked does the witness have them, do we have them. That
Page 7946
1 was part of the reason which impelled me to try to find them.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you for that. I mean, I -- I was sitting,
3 waiting to see if there was going to be an objection from the Defence but
4 made the assumption there wasn't objection because it was not objected
5 that they should appear in evidence. So that clears up that mystery.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Now, again if you just briefly describe what this particular file
9 depicts. Sorry, what the title says, Mr. Sabljica.
10 A. "Photo documentation. Case: Discovery of sniper nests. Place:
11 Sarajevo Grbavicka 6A street, formerly Lenin Street. Date of
12 photography: 25 April 1996. 16 photographs.
13 Q. Finally, we'll just turn to the 6th page of this file, please,
14 which should be about page 21.
15 What do we see there?
16 A. View through the right-hand opening on the northern wall of the
17 room, showing the area of activity in the direction of the tram stop
18 Technical School.
19 Q. In fact, if we could see the photograph prior to that one,
20 please, as well.
21 That will do. If you could explain what that is.
22 A. The side wall of the bedroom, with the visible opening 30 X 30
23 centimetres.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Now, Your Honours, the rest of these photographs are
25 of similar nature. I propose to tender this set of photographs now.
Page 7947
1 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, we'll admit it. Do we
2 need the translation of this?
3 MR. GAYNOR: I suppose the translation of -- of the description
4 of each photograph would be useful, so we can request that.
5 JUDGE KWON: So we'll mark it --
6 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: -- for identification, pending translation of that.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P1738.
9 MR. GAYNOR:
10 Q. As the next subject, Mr. Sabljica, I'd like you to clear up the
11 orientation of a map which -- of a sketch of a crime scene. This is a
12 sketch of the crime scene for incident G7, which Mr. Karadzic questioned
13 you about. And first of all, I'd like to bring up 65 ter 13581, please.
14 Now, if you look at the green dot marked 7 on this map,
15 Mr. Sabljica, do you -- do you accept that that marks approximately the
16 midpoint between the three shells which landed on the 4th of February,
17 1994, in the incident which was located near to
18 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?
19 A. Yes. That's what's written here, Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street.
20 I accept that.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Can I ask that this be admitted as a Prosecution
22 exhibit, please.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just for the record, that's page 10 of the
24 Sarajevo-specific court binder.
25 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Mr. President.
Page 7948
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be done.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1739.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Could I now ask for 65 ter 22986, please.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Sabljica, do you think you'd be able to mark the street
5 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva on this map? I should say on this photograph.
6 A. I'll try, but I'm not 100 per cent certain. I think --
7 Q. We can return to the previous map, if you wish.
8 JUDGE KWON: Or -- he --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be useful.
10 JUDGE KWON: -- hard copy of page 10 of this binder.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I'm wondering what the value is of
12 him simply copying from one map to another. This seems like the kind of
13 thing that you would say Dr. Karadzic is wasting time on. If all he's
14 doing is copying from one map to another, we can all do that ourselves.
15 JUDGE KWON: Not really. I don't see any problem, the witness
16 being assisted by the map he just saw a minute ago.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have found the street and now I
18 can mark it. It's this street over here. The place of the incident was
19 here. Actually, this playground. Oslobodilaca Sarajeva.
20 MR. GAYNOR:
21 Q. And just mark the figure 1 where you suggest the incident was.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. If you could sign and date that, please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Now, could we just -- just zoom in on location of the street for
Page 7949
1 a moment so the --
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll give the number for this. Exhibit P1740.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.
4 JUDGE KWON: After keeping them, we'll zoom in further. No, we
5 use the kept one. Use P1740.
6 MR. GAYNOR:
7 Q. Now, does that -- does that refresh your memory sufficiently well
8 of the incident site?
9 A. Yes, yes. Would you like me to mark it here?
10 JUDGE KWON: Would you wait a minute.
11 MR. GAYNOR: As it's -- as it's already marked, I think we can
12 move on to -- to the next exhibit.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Now, the -- some confusion arose yesterday as to the -- the
16 depiction of the direction north on a sketch relating to this incident.
17 Do you recall that?
18 A. Yes, yes, I do remember.
19 Q. Now, I'm going to show you that sketch, and it's been reoriented
20 in direction, and I want you to have a look at that.
21 MR. GAYNOR: So could I ask for 09617A, please.
22 JUDGE KWON: Give the number again?
23 MR. GAYNOR: It was 09617A.
24 JUDGE KWON: Has it been released?
25 MR. GAYNOR: Perhaps we can come back to that. Sorry. I think
Page 7950
1 it should be all right now.
2 JUDGE KWON: No. On my -- my computer. Oh, yes.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. There it is.
4 Q. Now, this sketch you can see all of the words you saw yesterday
5 are in fact upside-down, but could we just keep the orientation that it
6 was -- could we keep the orientation with the words upside-down. Thank
7 you very much.
8 It might be slightly unusual orientation for you, Mr. Sabljica,
9 but can you -- can you comment as to whether this, in fact, agrees with
10 the incident location if we were to suggest that the cardinal points of
11 the compass were north going straight up?
12 A. Perhaps two or three degrees more in terms of an acute angle.
13 Can I draw that? Two or three degrees. This is a segment of that street
14 now, Oslobodilaca Sarajeva. So may I mark it?
15 Q. Yes, please do so. And if you need the assistance of the
16 photograph or any maps, please let me know.
17 A. Perhaps the north should be here a bit. I'm going to mark it as
18 north. Because the street runs this way and -- it's not quite vertical.
19 Had you rotated this a bit more, say 5 degrees, instead of having it
20 perpendicular in relation to the street. Had you rotated the photograph,
21 say by 5 degrees, it would have been more precise in relation to the map
22 that I marked a few moments ago.
23 Q. You're -- you're satisfied that the direction you've marked as
24 north is -- is your calculation of where north should be. Is that the
25 case?
Page 7951
1 A. Yes. Yes. Like this.
2 Q. Fine. If you could just sign and date that, please.
3 A. [Marks].
4 MR. GAYNOR: I'd ask that that be admitted, please.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P1741.
7 MR. GAYNOR:
8 Q. Now, my final question in fact just concerns the record of the
9 proceedings. If you could just help me with the one small thing. This
10 was at page 7780. Mr. Karadzic said to you -- said to the Court, he
11 said:
12 "This was the city plan for the city of Sarajevo issued by,
13 published by Slovenes, and on the back of the plan there is a whole list
14 of new and old names."
15 A few lines later, he said:
16 "Well, I think we now have the original document. Can I please
17 ask the usher's assistance. Well, let me just take a look at it and
18 we'll show it to the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber."
19 That's the end of that extract. I'd just like to show you the
20 back of that particular map for a moment.
21 Mr. Sabljica, if you could open the map and direct your attention
22 to the box on the right-hand part of the map, indicating who produced the
23 map. Could you just tell the Court who produced the map.
24 A. It says: CIP, "Narodna Biblioteka Srbije," that is the National
25 Library of Serbia, Belgrade, Catalogue. Should I read it on?
Page 7952
1 Q. Yes, you can continue to the actual company, please.
2 A. "Sarajevo Plan Grada," city map. Editor: Goran Jovanovic.
3 1:20000 is the scale, Info System Fotografija 2005 Belgrade. One
4 geographic map."
5 Q. That's fine, thank you. And can you help me on another point:
6 Is there a list of new and old names on the back of that map?
7 A. I'll have to take a look. No. I think only the new names of
8 streets are registered here.
9 MR. GAYNOR: No further questions, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Sabljica, that concludes your
11 evidence here today, and on behalf of the Bench and the Tribunal, I thank
12 you for your coming to The Hague again to give it. Now you are free
13 to --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Sabljica.
16 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Defence please ask the
18 witness to identify on Google the situation as it is, in order to do away
19 with any possible dilemmas in this regard? Could we please have 65 ter
20 22986.
21 JUDGE KWON: What is your point of question, Mr. Karadzic?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm afraid -- actually, I
23 think we need to identify this. And also, there are many other minor
24 points which seem to have been elucidated but actually there is a
25 confusion in terms of the otherwise simple picture of the situation on
Page 7953
1 the ground and cardinal points, and that is going to constitute a major
2 problem. On the image of the garage, on this one example, we can show
3 what this looks like.
4 JUDGE KWON: Usually Defence is not allowed to ask question --
5 further cross-examination unless a new item has been triggered, arose
6 during the redirect examination.
7 Mr. Gaynor, what -- do you have any observation to make?
8 MR. GAYNOR: If it arises directly out of the redirect and
9 couldn't reasonably have been foreseen, I've no objection.
10 JUDGE KWON: So you do not object to his further
11 cross-examination in relation to that sketch?
12 MR. GAYNOR: I do not object. Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 One further question, Mr. Sabljica. So shall we bring up the
15 P exhibit, P1741.
16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] On this Google image, can you mark the garage?
18 A. Perhaps we could zoom in a bit, the area where
19 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva is.
20 JUDGE KWON: We did it. Why don't we let him compare two -- two
21 image, one Google image and the other the sketch. So why don't we bring
22 up two images, one being P1740, the other P1741.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have this
24 Google image on one part of the screen and then the sketch where the
25 garage is marked -- or, rather, the first impact, could we have that on
Page 7954
1 the other part.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Just so the record is absolutely accurate, the
3 satellite image we're looking at is not actually Google maps. In this
4 instance it was shot by the satellite Quick Bird in October 2002.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Is the image we need
7 the one we see on the left?
8 JUDGE KWON: It's coming.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you look at these two images, that is to say the image and
11 the sketch, and could you mark your knowledge on both, what it is that
12 you had established.
13 A. The garage should be in this upper part of the playground,
14 somewhere around here. That's where the garage should be, because you
15 see it here. It's along the entire length of the playground. There is a
16 building, there is a passageway here, and then you get there according to
17 this angle. I told you that if the streets were to be rotated -- that is
18 where the garage was. And this is the playground here. See, here. Can
19 you see it?
20 Q. We do not see what you're indicating. I'm afraid that we cannot
21 see that.
22 A. What I marked with red, that's where the garage should be, along
23 that. And perpendicular to the garage is the building. You see it. You
24 see it on the drawing, don't you, along with the blue line where I marked
25 the street. You can see it on the map as well. That's it. That's how I
Page 7955
1 see it on the basis of this image.
2 Q. May I remind you, what is this in the corner? It is the runway,
3 isn't it?
4 A. Yes. That's the airport.
5 Q. And Dobrinja, in a way, is parallel to the airport, and most of
6 its streets are either parallel or perpendicular to the airport; right?
7 A. Precisely.
8 Q. The north is as you had decided last time. So these streets are
9 about 10 or 15 minutes; right?
10 A. Those that are perpendicular to the airport move towards the
11 south-west/north-east in relation to the airport. They do not fully
12 coincide with the north. So there is that slight difference, as you had
13 put it.
14 Q. Is it the south-east and north-west actually?
15 A. No. No. I'm going to draw the north for you here in relation to
16 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva. I'm using a different colour. Actually, I'm
17 using red now. I'll draw it here. This is north. And you see how the
18 streets run.
19 Q. You can go on, if you wish, through the built-up area to the
20 airport.
21 A. Here's north, here's south. [In English] East, west.
22 [Interpretation] In relation to the street; right? So this is an
23 idealised picture. Had they turned this image a bit further you will see
24 on the drawing, around the satellite image the streets are not parallel,
25 part of the streets on Oslobodilaca Sarajeva. The sketch should be
Page 7956
1 turned to the left a bit more and then the directions would coincide with
2 what I drew on the satellite image. You have it here in the corner of
3 the map.
4 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether it's possible, but could you draw a
5 line on the sketch which is on the right side, indicating the
6 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, if my pronunciation is correct.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the street
8 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva, OS. You can see it here. And the north is here,
9 in this direction. Now, if we were to rotate this map a bit -- or,
10 rather, the sketch, then it would be parallel to the blue line
11 Oslobodilaca Sarajeva in relation to this one marked here, so then this
12 would fully coincide.
13 It is very hard to draw on this kind of sketch that just shows a
14 segment of the scene or site.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. However, the street runs in the direction to the north-east,
17 rather, mildly.
18 A. South-west/north-east.
19 Q. Can you now use the blue marker to mark these 20 or 15 degrees in
20 terms of how it diverges from the north as such.
21 A. If I were to extend it, this would be the angle; right? Let's
22 call it Alpha. I'm going to extend the north as well so you have a
23 better picture of it. It's not that precise now, but approximately. I
24 mean, it's hard to draw this thing through maps.
25 JUDGE KWON: And whether you can indicate that degree -- Alpha
Page 7957
1 degree on the right side sketch.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. This is where the Alpha
3 angle would be.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. We made a mistake, tendered a different map. We have
7 a Slovenian map as well. However there is no difference whatsoever in
8 view of those elements that we are concerned with. So if there is any
9 dilemma, if you'd like this map to be obtained as well, the Chamber --
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, could you kindly put the date and your
11 signature on this image.
12 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. This will be given a separate D exhibit
14 number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D768.
16 JUDGE KWON: I notice you rose, Mr. Gaynor.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Simply to say that we would -- we would be happy to
18 receive a copy of the Slovenian map so we could verify that.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That has concluded your cross -- further
20 cross-examination. Dr. Subotic is saying yes, but --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would like Mr. Sabljica to sign
24 the sketch as well. That might be useful too.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's signed, and it says
Page 7958
1 the 14th of October.
2 JUDGE KWON: No, no.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But with the new markings.
4 JUDGE KWON: It's kept all together. We'll save the image all
5 together in one image. I think that was done. Can I confirm with the
6 court deputy? Yes. This is what we saved.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, please.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to assure
10 Mr. Sabljica, as I hope he has seen for himself, that I have been dealing
11 with this material in the work of different groups. I'm not doing
12 anything on a personal level in terms of the members of these groups. I
13 would like to establish that we are both in favour of the reconciliation
14 of the people down there, and it's better if it takes place today rather
15 than tomorrow, and this reconciliation is going to happen if --
16 JUDGE KWON: It's not necessary to make a statement here.
17 So that concludes, really, your evidence, thank you again, and
18 now you're free to go, Mr. Sabljica. So we'll -- just wait. We'll draw
19 the curtain.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. [In English] Thank
21 you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Sabljica.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE KWON: There's one matter I'd like to deal with very
Page 7959
1 briefly in private session. Shall we go into private session.
2 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]
3 JUDGE KWON: On 28th of September, 2010, Mr. Karadzic raised the
4 issue of a possible site visit by the Chamber to a particular location in
5 Sarajevo. Treating this as a form of oral motion for a site visit, the
6 Chamber asked the parties to make written submissions, which were
7 received on 6th and 7th October 2010.
8 Having considered those submissions, the Chamber does not
9 consider it to be seized of a motion for a site visit at this stage.
10 However, we wish to inform the parties that we are of the view that a
11 site visit to certain locations in and around Sarajevo may indeed be
12 helpful and that this is something which the Chamber is contemplating for
13 the future.
14 The parties should bear in mind that organisation of a site visit
15 requires significant advance planning in the region of at least three
16 months and that this needs to be taken into account should they wish to
17 make a motion for a site visit.
18 Should no such motion be filed, the Chamber will raise the matter
19 again at least three months before the anticipated end of the Prosecution
20 's case.
21 We reiterate that, for security reasons, it is important for all
22 such discussions to be conducted in private session or on a confidential
23 basis, and for that reason we deny Mr. Karadzic's request for his
24 submission to be reclassified as a public document.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Would the Chamber be minded
Page 7960
1 to make more than one site visit so that it would see the sites of
2 Sarajevo on one occasion and then later on would make another visit, if
3 necessary, to other parts of Bosnia? Because our concern in making the
4 motion was that we're not in a position to suggest locations outside of
5 Sarajevo, but we are in a position to suggest locations within Sarajevo,
6 and we didn't think that the Chamber would otherwise be minded to make
7 more than one site visit; but if you are, then we can make that motion
8 with respect to Sarajevo.
9 JUDGE KWON: You are free to make any submission which you would
10 find helpful, but it relates to some certain budgetary and financial
11 problem, but we may consider whatever submission you make.
12 Shall we go back to open session.
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE KWON: In light of the health condition of the accused, we
15 find it inappropriate and impractical to continue today. We'll adjourn
16 for today, and we'll resume tomorrow at 10.00 for a hearing which relates
17 to Bosnia binding order.
18 We'll rise.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.53 a.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 15th day
21 of October, 2010, at 10.00 a.m.
22
23
24
25