Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8279

 1                           Tuesday, 26 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             We'll be sitting today pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with Judge Baird

 8     being away due to his urgent matters.

 9             Good morning, Mr. Witness.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Can I remind you that your oath is still valid.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13                           WITNESS:  KDZ166 [Resumed]

14                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  We were in the middle of -- Mr. Gaynor, could you

16     remind me whether or not you completed your examination-in-chief?

17             MR. GAYNOR:  I haven't yet completed, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             Please continue, Mr. Gaynor.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             We had just finished with the Safeta Zajke Street incident.

22                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor: [Continued]

23        Q.   Now, Witness, I would like to turn to another incident, G7, in

24     your statement at pages 14 and 15.  You refer to your participation into

25     an investigation into a case of three shells fired on Dobrinja 1 on the

Page 8280

 1     4th of February, 1994.  Do you recall your participation in that

 2     investigation?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask for P1739, please.

 5        Q.   I believe you've already had an opportunity to inspect this map.

 6     Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.

 8        Q.   The location marked with a green digit "7" and a green dot, do

 9     you agree that that green dot marks the approximate midpoint of the

10     impact locations of the three shells in this incident?

11        A.   Yes, it does.

12        Q.   Could you describe briefly the nature of this part of Sarajevo

13     where the shells landed.

14        A.   This is a suburb of Sarajevo.  The buildings there are up to five

15     storeys high.  This is an exclusively residential area.  In other words,

16     it's an urban settlement where you have buildings, schools, shops.  And

17     that's it.

18        Q.   You prepared a sketch of the incident site; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask for 65 ter 16802, please.

21        Q.   At the top, we see the legend to your sketch; is that correct,

22     Witness?

23        A.   Yes, that's the legend.

24        Q.   And in the description at the bottom, we see the digits

25     "02.04.1994."  Is that a reference to the 4th of February, 1994?

Page 8281

 1        A.   No, no.  That's the 4th -- the 4th of February, 1994.  I made a

 2     mistake by mixing up the month and the date.

 3        Q.   Very well.  We're agreed that's the 4th of February, 1994?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask that the next page not be broadcast, but

 6     that it be brought up, please.

 7        Q.   At the bottom of this page, we see your signature and the date,

 8     14th of the 11th, 1995.  Now, is it correct that you signed that when you

 9     met with representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, and you signed

10     a copy of this sketch when providing a statement on that date?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   According to the legend you provided on the previous page, the

13     locations 1, 2 and 3 mark the impact locations; is that correct?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   Now, I understand you wish to make a correction to the direction

16     marked "North" on this sketch.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask that the sketch be rotated 180 degrees,

19     please.  I now propose to --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's okay as it is, it's

21     all right.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  Could I provide, please, the witness

23     with a hard copy of the map that he's just inspected, which is page 10 of

24     the Sarajevo-specific court binder.

25        Q.   First of all, does the street marked on this sketch Ulica

Page 8282

 1     Oslobodilaca Grada, is that the same as Oslobodilaca Sarajeva; could you

 2     confirm that, first of all?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4        Q.   Now, would it assist if we rotated the map -- the sketch 180

 5     degrees?  Would that help you?

 6        A.   No, no, it's all right as it is.  Shall I mark --

 7        Q.   Yes, please, if you could mark the direction north on the map

 8     now, please.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   The arrow points in the direction north; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if you could sign and date that sketch.

13        A.   [Marks]

14             MR. GAYNOR:  And if that could be admitted under seal, please,

15     Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Why do we have to put it under seal?  Why have you

17     asked him to sign his real name?

18             MR. GAYNOR:  It already contains a copy of his signature on this

19     page.  That was why I was requesting him -- he can simply give his

20     witness number, if Your Honours wish.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit this.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1802, under seal, Your Honours.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll now move to another incident, which is Incident

24     G-15.

25        Q.   Witness, in your statement, at pages 13 and 14 -- there's no need

Page 8283

 1     to consult the map now for the moment -- you refer to an incident at

 2     Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva on the 16th of June, 1995.  Do you recall

 3     your participation in that investigation?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on, Mr. Gaynor, I wonder whether the

 6     witness would be able to explain why he made a mistake when he first drew

 7     this sketch.  Could you answer that, Mr. Witness?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time when I was making the

 9     first sketch, we were under large pressure because nine people were

10     killed and about another twenty were wounded as a result of this

11     shelling, and our life was constantly in danger while we were conducting

12     our on-site investigation because one is completely in the open while

13     doing that, and this location is in close proximity to the front-line,

14     and one can almost see very clearly -- or the aggressor could clearly see

15     the point from the hill that they were holding.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I leave it there.  It's up to you, Mr. Gaynor.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             I'd like to call up, please, Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 13564, please.

19     This is page 11 of the Sarajevo-specific court binder.

20        Q.   Witness, could you confirm that the green dot marked with the

21     digit 11 on this -- I beg your pardon.  The green dot marked with the

22     digit 15 on this map is the impact location?

23        A.   Yes, that's the impact location.

24        Q.   Again, could you describe, briefly, the general nature of the

25     impact area.

Page 8284

 1        A.   This area is called Alipasino Polje, and it is a purely urban

 2     area, with residential buildings where people lived.  There were also

 3     schools and shops.  So as I said, an urban quarter of the town.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I request that this map be admitted,

 5     Your Honour?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1803, Your Honours.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:

 9        Q.   Witness, you drew a sketch of the incident site; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask for 65 ter 09819, please.

12        Q.   This is the sketch of the incident location; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we turn to the next page, please, in B/C/S.

15        Q.   You've marked a legend at the top of this, and the figures

16     correspond with those on your sketch; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we move to the next page, please.

19        Q.   In this sketch, could you just simply focus on the figures "1110

20     by 780," and explain what those figures refer to.

21        A.   This sketch and these figures represent the point of impact of

22     the modified explosive device, and these sizes, 1110 times 780, is the

23     size of the crater created by the modified explosive device.

24        Q.   Could you just clarify the units?

25        A.   This is expressed in centimetres, so it's 1.110 centimetres by

Page 8285

 1     780 centimetres.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask that the sketch be admitted under seal,

 3     Mr. President?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Why under seal again, Mr. Gaynor?

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Again, the sketch contains a signature of the

 6     witness.  I will prepare public versions of these exhibits.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll do so.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  The under-seal version will be Exhibit P1804, and

 9     the public redacted version will be Exhibit P1805.

10             MR. GAYNOR:

11        Q.   Witness, you took photographs of the incident location; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask for 65 ter 09792, please.

15             If we could zoom in on photograph 1.  This can be broadcast.

16     Zoom in on the top photograph, please.

17        Q.   Could you describe, in general terms, what this depicts.

18        A.   We can see here the point of impact or the point where this

19     projectile had landed and the hole it made in the concrete path that you

20     can see further beyond.  You can see it's made of concrete.  And this

21     path leads behind the building.  You can see people standing on the edge

22     of this crater, and you can also see how small the people are in

23     comparison to the size of the crater.  You can see how big it is.

24             Another important point is you can see a corner of this building

25     next to which the projectile landed, and this building had more than 10

Page 8286

 1     storeys, so had it impacted on the building, it would probably have

 2     destroyed it completely.  This is a residential building, just to add

 3     that, and there were at least four to five families living on each

 4     storey, so you can only imagine the number of casualties that might have

 5     been caused.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Can we go to the next page, please.  Again, if we

 7     could zoom in on the top photograph.

 8        Q.   Could you describe what is in this photograph?

 9        A.   I used number 1 and a scaler in order to mark the rocket motors

10     that propelled this modified explosive device.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I request that this be admitted -- this

12     exhibit could be admitted as a public exhibit, Mr. President?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1806, Your Honours.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  And that ends the direct examination, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Have we dealt with the admitting exercise of

19     associated exhibits, Mr. Gaynor?

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you for the reminder, Mr. President.  We have

21     not.  We can go through it now, if Your Honours wish.

22             The associated exhibits which have already been admitted have

23     been listed on page 5 of the appendix to the Rule 92 ter notification in

24     respect of this witness.  I can indicate that in the list, starting on

25     page 2, the third exhibit should be admitted under seal, and otherwise

Page 8287

 1     the exhibits which were admitted under seal in the previous proceedings,

 2     we would move for them to be admitted under seal in these proceedings as

 3     well.  They're all marked on the list.  And those, with the exception

 4     that I've noted which were admitted publicly, can be admitted publicly in

 5     this trial.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections from the Defence?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, other than the one that deals

 8     with the unscheduled incident that I indicated previously.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  One of the associated exhibits is a video-clip,

10     which 65 ter number is 40086.  Has it been up-loaded in the e-court?

11     Just --

12             MR. GAYNOR:  We'll confirm that.  We have provided it to the

13     Trial Chamber on a CD version as well.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Then they would be all admitted, and the exhibit numbers will be

16     circulated to the parties in due course by the Court Deputy.

17             Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

18             Mr. Karadzic.

19             Mr. Witness, you will be asked further questions by the Defence.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Good morning to everyone.  Good morning to you, Witness.

24        A.   Good morning.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before I begin, just for the sake

Page 8288

 1     of formality, I'd like to remind everyone that we have at least five

 2     major incidents to deal with, plus some general issues that pertain to

 3     the witness, himself.  Therefore, it might again bring us into the

 4     situation that we are pressed for time.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, let me ask you straightforward about the 4th of

 7     February incidents, because it's fresh in your memory.  That was in 1994.

 8     Did that happen one day before the major incident called "Markale 1"?

 9        A.   I cannot tell you that.  And, believe me, I cannot remember all

10     the dates from 16 years before.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In the amalgamated statement, it is stated in your

12     answer that you were a forensic technician.  Is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What is your educational background?  What do you need in order

15     to become that?

16        A.   In order to acquire the status of a forensic technician, it is

17     necessary to finish secondary engineering school.  And after that, once

18     you join the police, you have to attend a special police course, which I

19     did, and which lasted six months.  After that, you take an exam or a

20     series of exams, and eventually you get the status of the criminal

21     investigation technician or a forensic technician.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So, in other words, can you tell me what would be the

23     role of the forensic technician during an investigation?  What is he

24     exactly doing?

25        A.   In the course of investigation, a forensic technician is an

Page 8289

 1     individual who goes along with a group of investigators to the crime

 2     scene, and his task, first and foremost, is of a technical nature.

 3        Q.   What is he doing, exactly?

 4        A.   His first task would be to photograph the scene, to draw a sketch

 5     of the scene, and prepare a forensic and criminal investigation report.

 6     He also collects all the evidence on the spot and hands it over to the

 7     investigations [as interpreted] and experts for further expert analysis.

 8        Q.   So all of this is done by him on the spot?

 9        A.   No.  What he does on the spot is the bulk of the work that he has

10     to do, and, of course, all the paperwork will have to be done in an

11     office.

12        Q.   Is this something that's done with a ruler, these precise

13     actions, or is this done in the office?

14        A.   Well, there is a rough sketch made on the site which is measured.

15     The precise dimensions are entered, measured by a tape measure.

16     Everything -- all the data is entered on the sketch.  And then at the

17     office, the actual sketch is made using a ruler, using the same

18     measurements that were taken at the scene.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And then everything is revised and the forensic

20     report is drafted; is that correct?

21        A.   There is no revision.  What was observed on the scene is written

22     in the criminal technical investigation report.

23        Q.   But if there's a mistake made, it's something that can be

24     corrected in the office?

25        A.   Well, you cannot correct any errors.

Page 8290

 1        Q.   Is it important, the time and the actual situation on the scene?

 2     Is the time and the place of coming to the scene important?

 3        A.   The best is to come to the scene of the incident immediately when

 4     the incident happens.  Usually, we would come to the scene as soon as the

 5     police out in the field reports to us that an incident has taken place.

 6     Then a team is composed, headed by an inspector who is leading that group

 7     of people, and we go to the scene of the incident.  If it's a more

 8     serious crime where there is a person who has been killed or injured,

 9     then an investigative judge and an investigator would also accompany or

10     be part of the team, a doctor too, forensic experts would come also,

11     because they are important when we are talking about this type of crime.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And this is a rule during peacetime as well, isn't

13     it?

14        A.   Yes, the procedure is the same during war and peace.

15        Q.   You mentioned that you had additional training that focused on

16     war crimes.  What did that involve?

17        A.   We didn't have any additional training that would cover war

18     crimes.

19        Q.   So then -- I have to wait for the interpretation.

20             The incident that occurred during the war, did you treat them

21     just like any other incident that occurred during peacetime?

22        A.   Yes, precisely, that is it.

23        Q.   And did you establish if there were any alterations or changes on

24     the scene?

25        A.   Yes.  Sometimes we wouldn't immediately go to the scene of the

Page 8291

 1     incident.  We would go a little later.  And we would have to record that

 2     in the report, that we came to the scene later.

 3        Q.   Was this a rule or an exception?

 4        A.   It was a rule to record such information.  However, the rule was

 5     that we would immediately go to the scene of the incident.

 6        Q.   Yes.  So the exception would be to go to the scene of the

 7     incident later?

 8        A.   Yes.  We would only go later only in the case when there was

 9     intense shelling underway or when it was very dangerous to go to the

10     scene.  We would not wish to endanger the lives of the people in the

11     investigation team.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And which part of the forensic report could we say

13     was yours?  Which part are you responsible for?

14        A.   I am responsible for the photographing -- the photographs taken

15     at the scene, the diagram, and the criminal investigation technical

16     report.  However, it was my duty also to compile any traces and hand over

17     any traces of the incident for testing and expert examination.

18        Q.   And can you please tell us:  Why is it that in all of these

19     incidents, we don't have any photographs or records of the victims?

20     There is no sketch on the ground.  There is no relational data.  Why is

21     there no such information in the reports for any of these cases?

22        A.   Yes, you are correct.  In peacetime, we would precisely mark the

23     outline where the victim lay, in chalk.  We would mark the position of

24     the victim, the surrounding objects, the area.  And the investigation at

25     the scene would be conducted thoroughly, it would take a long time.

Page 8292

 1     However, when a shell strikes and kills all the people around at that

 2     location, those who survived automatically -- it's a question of

 3     survival.  It's some kind of God's will to save the lives of people.

 4     Those people simply get up and they want to help those who are injured.

 5     They want to put them in cars and transport them to the hospital.

 6        Q.   What about the dead?

 7        A.   More or less, everyone is taken to the hospital first, because

 8     you cannot establish with 100 per cent certainty who is dead and who is

 9     alive, because most of the shrapnel injuries are quite terrible.  People

10     are exposed to horrible lacerations and cuts, there is heavy bleeding.  A

11     piece of shrapnel would irregularly cut the human body.  There would be

12     lots of blood vessel injuries.  So all the people are taken straight to

13     the hospital, where the doctors try to help them.  After that, if they

14     survive, their treatment continues.  If not, they are taken to the

15     morgue, which is part of the hospital, the Kosevo Hospital or any other

16     hospital.

17        Q.   At one point in time here, you said -- perhaps this is the

18     Trg Prijateljstva incident.  You said that there were no dead bodies, but

19     you did observe traces of blood.

20        A.   Yes, yes.  When you come to the scene, you would see parts of

21     bodies, you would see pools of blood, literally pools of blood; not

22     dripping blood, but pools of blood.  You would see pieces of the body

23     parts, of the skull, bone fragments, body parts, parts of clothing,

24     shoes.  I mean, you really are aware that you are in a horrible place.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear Mr. Karadzic's

Page 8293

 1     question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did photograph it; not

 3     everything, but --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Witness.  The

 5     interpreters were not able to follow the question and answer because you

 6     are overlapping each other.  Please, again, put a pause between the

 7     question and answer.

 8             The interpreters couldn't hear your question, Mr. Karadzic.

 9     Could you please repeat it.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]  I asked, Why didn't you

12     photograph that?  And then the witness said, I did photograph it; not

13     everything.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is something that is quite unclear to me, the quite obvious

16     absence of these photographs in your forensic reports.  Did IFOR [as

17     interpreted] allow the scene to be disturbed so much that these elements

18     are not shown or are missing from the photographs?  Not "IFOR," I didn't

19     say "IFOR."

20             Did you permit -- did anyone permit; not IFOR, anyone?  How did

21     it happen that these photographs and, generally, these pieces of forensic

22     evidence are so denuded that there are no key pieces of data; how many

23     people were killed, relational aspects, the location of the bodies?  Why

24     is it that in peacetime this is something that you did thoroughly?  You

25     couldn't appear before a trial chamber without this complete forensic

Page 8294

 1     data, without sketches, without all the information; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, you are correct.  However, I repeat, when such an incident

 3     takes place, when people all around are screaming and moaning, lying in

 4     pools of their own blood, the citizens who survived, who are close by,

 5     who are at the location, would try to help them, to transport them to the

 6     hospital as soon as possible in order for them to be given medical

 7     assistance so that they don't bleed to death.  This is a very simple

 8     reason, because it's just a question of life and death.

 9        Q.   Witness, sir, I completed my medical studies in Sarajevo, and all

10     of my medical education, other than some parts of my psychiatric

11     training, I completed all of that in Sarajevo.  How is it that in your

12     testimony, and even in footage, you could see the wounded and the dead

13     being dragged?  You said that you even saw traces of bodies being

14     dragged.  Where in the world does it happen that these bodies are

15     dragged?

16        A.   No, no, no, I said that people are transferred to the closest

17     vehicle and transported to the hospital, where medical assistance is

18     given to them.  So the point is to provide medical assistance to a

19     wounded or injured person in order to prevent bleeding and to help that

20     person survive.  It's a -- it's a struggle to keep a person alive.  These

21     are minutes -- seconds involved that would decide whether somebody would

22     survive or not.  I mean, it's a question -- it's a matter of life and

23     death.  You're a doctor.  You ought to know that.

24        Q.   But you said that you saw bloody tracks of bodies being dragged

25     along the ground, and we saw in video footage that people -- bodies were

Page 8295

 1     being dragged on the ground.  So Sarajevo medicine would not permit such

 2     bad practices.  Sarajevo medicine, the medicine practiced in Sarajevo,

 3     was good.

 4             Anyway, let's look at page 8 of this amalgamated statement, where

 5     you say that sometimes you would establish the directions approximately;

 6     you were not quite sure about the direction.  Was direction established

 7     in these cases, and was the distance from which the projectile came also

 8     determined?

 9        A.   My primary task was not to establish the direction from which the

10     projectile came, because this was something that was done more precisely

11     by ballistics experts, people from the Counter-Sabotage Protection and

12     forensic ballistics experts.  So there are experts who were dealing with

13     the direction from which the projectile came.  I, personally, don't know

14     that anyone was concerned with the distance covered by the projectile.

15     This is something that I did not deal with.  I didn't take that into

16     account.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And these reports, including all the investigation

18     material, was that something that made a complete whole, a set?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   On page 11, line 20, you said that there were some official

21     photographers.  Other than yourself, were there any other people taking

22     photographs?

23        A.   There was no one else photographing, other than me, unless in

24     some cases there were two technicians that came to the scene, so they

25     helped each other.  However, within our Criminal Investigation Department

Page 8296

 1     at the Sarajevo CSB, we had a person who filmed all the incidents with a

 2     camera.  When this was necessary, he would make a camera recording at the

 3     scene.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned in a number of places here that,

 5     whenever possible, UNPROFOR was there.  Did UNPROFOR also conduct their

 6     own investigations at the scene?

 7        A.   I think that they did.  They made their own notes and they gave

 8     their own findings and opinion about each individual incident.

 9        Q.   And which incidents were filmed by video camera?

10        A.   The video footage was made for incidents where there was a large

11     number of casualties, where a large number of people were killed, where

12     many people were killed.  That's where the scene was filmed by video

13     camera as well.

14        Q.   And for which of these incidents is there video footage?

15        A.   I really couldn't tell you exactly which incidents, but I am sure

16     that wherever there were a large number of victims, there was also video

17     footage.

18        Q.   I apologise.  I'm waiting for the interpreter as well.

19             There was a large number of victims at the Dobrinja incident.  Do

20     you have video footage for that?

21        A.   Yes, I think that we do.

22        Q.   What about Incident G-11 of the 24th of May?

23        A.   I'm not sure that we do.

24        Q.   What about Majdanska Street, again on the 24th of May, 1995?

25        A.   I cannot answer this question because I'm not sure.

Page 8297

 1        Q.   What about Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva?  Is there a video

 2     report on that?

 3        A.   No, there is no such report for Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva,

 4     I think so.

 5        Q.   What about Hrasnica; is there a video footage of that?

 6        A.   I also know nothing about Hrasnica.  Trust me, this was not part

 7     of my remit, because I didn't follow it for that reason.  And, again, as

 8     I say, it was 16 years ago, 17 years ago.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The Defence fully agree that you look into your

10     contemporaneous reports in order to assist you.

11             Let me ask you this:  Did you follow the testimony given by

12     Mr. Sabljica which took place recently in this court?

13        A.   No, I didn't.  All I saw was on the news, that he appeared as a

14     witness.

15        Q.   Did you consult with Mr. Sabljica afterwards?

16        A.   No, no, I didn't speak to him in any way whatsoever, nor did I

17     consult with him.

18        Q.   Well, that's not forbidden.  I'm just asking.

19             Let's now move to the Dobrinja incident of the 4th of February,

20     1994.  Do you know now why this report is wrong?

21        A.   I don't know why the report is wrong, other than the

22     wrongly-marked north, which I corrected.

23        Q.   Now we have a new northerly direction.  So if you change it from

24     90 degrees to some 30 or 40 degrees, does that affect the direction from

25     which the shell came?

Page 8298

 1        A.   No, it doesn't.  I did not plot the direction onto my sketch from

 2     which the shell came because that part of the work, that is, to establish

 3     the direction, was done by ballistic experts.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have in e-court

 5     P1802, and I suppose it shouldn't be broadcast.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   But they determined the direction from which it came based on the

 8     bearing measurements that they had; is that correct?

 9        A.   No.  I was there while they were doing their job, and they

10     observed and reviewed the traces left by the explosion of a

11     120-millimetre shell.  And based on these traces left on the concrete

12     surface, they determined the direction from which the projectile came.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This should not be broadcast.

14             Now, please focus on this.  Can you see, in the left top corner,

15     where it says "Zgrada," "Building"?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   It's located in the south, and the point of impact is north of

18     that building, according to what you marked?

19        A.   Well, to tell you honestly, at that moment when we were doing all

20     this, I was not familiar with that particular suburb of the city of

21     Sarajevo.  We had to conduct our investigation quickly and under

22     tremendous pressure, so my duty was to take photographs, to draw a

23     sketch, and just to pray to God not to be killed.

24        Q.   Very well.  Now, we don't have to hurry.  You did this in your

25     office by using a ruler; is that correct?

Page 8299

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you did that on the basis of the sketch that you made on the

 3     spot?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   So let's try and agree on this.  The point of impact on the

 6     playground is on the northern edge of that playground; is that correct?

 7        A.   I cannot give you a correct answer.

 8        Q.   Well, it says number 1.

 9        A.   But would you say north from the edge?  You have to tell me north

10     from which particular point.

11        Q.   If this is how you draw it, the diagonal of this playground, the

12     bearing is approximately zero, viewed from north?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   This line that you drew indicating north, can you transpond

15     [as interpreted] it to the playground or draw another one in the

16     playground so that we have a diagonal line in the playground placed

17     facing north, and that at its northerly corner was the place where the

18     shell fell?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  This building above on the drawing, is it true that

21     another shell, number 2 or whatever the sequence was, landed on its

22     northerly side?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And number 3 fell on the westerly side of the building, itself?

25        A.   That would be the south side of the building.

Page 8300

 1        Q.   If you look at the axis of the building, it intersects with the

 2     northerly one?

 3        A.   But then it would be a diagonal.  So number 3 is on the south.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now have 1D0291.

 5             I'm sorry, I'm really sorry.  Can we have it back?  The drawing,

 6     I mean.  Can we have it back?  P1802.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please, can you mark here with an arrow the direction where

 9     Lukavica is situated?

10        A.   No, no, I can't do that.

11        Q.   Why not?

12        A.   Lukavica should be approximately due south or south-east, roughly

13     speaking.

14        Q.   Can you mark it now, then?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Well, this is exactly south?

17        A.   Perhaps south, south-east.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put the letter L to indicate "Lukavica," and

19     after that we can admit this into evidence.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we do that, Your Honours, under

22     seal?

23             JUDGE KWON:  I just noted that page 20 in B/C/S and page 11 in

24     English of 65 ter 9617, which is a report of this incident, bears the

25     same sketch without his signature, so I'm wondering why we have to admit

Page 8301

 1     all these marked maps under seal.  But we'll do that in the meantime,

 2     we'll admit it under seal.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D798, under seal, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Why were you standing on the north and doing this sketch when it

 6     is customary to stand in the south and face north?

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection, Mr. President.

 8             I don't believe there's any evidence that it was customary to

 9     stand in the south and face north.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.

11             Could you reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Were you standing there in the north and facing south when you

14     were making this sketch?

15        A.   I made this sketch very quickly, and the first thing that I did

16     was to draw the buildings in the space, how their layout is, including

17     the garage and the streets.  Only after that did I plot in the northerly

18     direction.

19        Q.   Can you mark the point where you stood?

20        A.   No, I cannot, because the shells landed in a wide area.  We're

21     not talking about a few metres, we're talking about several hundreds of

22     metres.  So this is an entire complex of buildings that we are talking

23     about.

24        Q.   But the person making the drawing was standing where?  Where were

25     you standing when you imagined yourself in this space?

Page 8302

 1        A.   Yes, you're right, but I did not indicate the standing point

 2     here, nor did I include it in the legend.  And, again, I'm telling you

 3     the reason for that was because three shells landed at three different

 4     places several hundred metres apart; therefore, I did not make this

 5     sketch properly and include the standing point.

 6        Q.   But you did this in your office; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, but the majority of the work was done on the ground.  And it

 8     is crucial that one makes a correct sketch on the spot, and then you use

 9     a ruler only to provide the description.

10        Q.   Did you use the city map of Sarajevo in doing so?

11        A.   No, I didn't, not at that time.

12        Q.   Not even when you went back to your office?

13        A.   No, no.  You know, there were so many incidents that were

14     happening one after another so quickly.  We were under huge pressure, our

15     lives were in danger, and this was a very stressful situation.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 1D2191.

17     Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you see the street of Oslobodilaca Sarajeva, and do you agree

20     that's 353?

21        A.   I can't see "353" anywhere.

22        Q.   Look at this red dot.  It's at Mimar Sinana Bulevar, and then it

23     says "353" in the direction of the airport.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't catch the answer of the

25     witness.

Page 8303

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, the interpreters couldn't hear your

 2     answer.  What did you say?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that at first glance, I

 4     couldn't find the street 353.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   But now you can see it?

 7        A.   Yes, I can, yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to be

 9     assisted in order to draw some elements into this map; the garage, and

10     everything that was happening.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer this question

12     because I didn't visit this location for 17 years.  Therefore, I'm unable

13     to answer your question.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   But you did provide an answer to the Prosecutor when he showed

16     you something similar.  Can you mark here the direction pointing at

17     Lukavica?

18        A.   [Marks].  This is the direction of Lukavica.

19        Q.   Can you mark north -- direction north along the Street 353?

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Where did the incident happen; on the left- or the

22     right-hand side of the street?

23        A.   I suppose that the incident took place on both sides of the

24     street.

25        Q.   It doesn't say that on your sketch.  There is a garage and so on.

Page 8304

 1     Can you please -- on which side of the street of Oslobodilaca Sarajeva

 2     was this playground as we look at it?  Was it on the left- or the

 3     right-hand side?

 4        A.   I cannot say that because I cannot recognise that place at all.

 5     I wasn't there for the past 17 years.  I'm sorry, but I cannot answer

 6     that.

 7        Q.   And do you agree that the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street exits onto

 8     the Bulevar Mimar Sinana Street?

 9        A.   Yes, it does.

10        Q.   Do you agree that it does not touch the Hamdije Kapidzica Street

11     at all?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct, it doesn't.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And why does it then say in the statement that the

14     incident occurred at the crossroads of Hamdije Kapidzica and Oslobodilaca

15     Grada, as it says here?  Is there a street called Oslobodilaca Grada?

16        A.   Well, I really couldn't tell you that.

17        Q.   If you do have your report, please look at it.  It says

18     "Oslobodilaca Grada Street," and the Hamdije Kapidzica Street is also

19     mentioned, the intersection of those two streets, which actually is not

20     shown here.

21        A.   I don't have the report in front of me.  All I can say is that

22     that day, I came to the scene, I quickly made a sketch, and I ran from

23     there as far -- fast as my feet would carry me.

24        Q.   Can you now indicate on this map this erroneous direction of the

25     north, which is to the -- which lays 90 degrees in relation to

Page 8305

 1     Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street?

 2        A.   I cannot do that because I cannot make a connection between my

 3     diagram and this diagram that you are showing to me now.

 4        Q.   All right, thank you.  Then can you just put the initials --

 5     actually, your number here, so that we don't have to tender this document

 6     under seal.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Your number is KDZ166.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In order to be fair, in your report it says "Ulica Oslobodilaca

11     Sarajeva" and Dzavaharlal Nehru Street."  So you agree that Hamdije

12     Kapidzica Street was earlier called Jawaharlal Nehru Street?

13        A.   I cannot answer that question.

14        Q.   But if Hamdije Kapidzica Street was earlier called Jawaharlal

15     Nehru Street, then that is the one that the report refers to?

16        A.   I cannot answer that question.  I'm not familiar with the streets

17     in that part of town at all.  I have no idea how to answer your question.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The marked map will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D799, Your Honours.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  I just wanted to note that Mr. Karadzic has not yet

23     provided any information as to the date of the street pattern set out in

24     this map.  The date -- the map information set out in the Prosecution's

25     map in relation to this incident dates from 1994, so I want to note for

Page 8306

 1     the record that there's no indication as to when this street pattern

 2     dates from.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The Defence must have heard your submission, but can

 4     you answer that question, Mr. Karadzic?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that we showed the previous

 6     witness the list of old and new streets, and that Hamdije Kapidzica at an

 7     earlier map is Jawaharlal Nehru Street.  At least, I think we established

 8     the position.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Instead of making submissions, look into the matter

10     and come back with an answer later.

11             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I wanted to note - we might as well clarify it

13     now - there are two issues, one is the old and new street names.

14     Mr. Karadzic's list which he's previously provided does not in fact agree

15     with the Prosecution's list of old and new street names for Sarajevo.

16     That's point number 1.

17             Point number 2 is the street pattern, the actual layout of the

18     streets.  That's the point I was making.  Mr. Karadzic hasn't provided

19     information as to when this street pattern dates from.  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, sir, do you remember that Dobrinja was originally the

22     Olympic Village and that the streets and the buildings were completed in

23     1984?  Is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And do you know if any of these streets changed their position

Page 8307

 1     from 1984 to today?

 2        A.   I don't know.  Probably not.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   But I do know for a fact that the street names were changed.

 5        Q.   Yes, that is correct.  We agree.  Do you remember what was said

 6     in the report about where the shells came from?

 7        A.   As far as I can remember, it was said in the report that the

 8     shells came from the direction of Lukavica.

 9        Q.   In that case, which direction would that be?

10        A.   That would be south-east.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So when you marked it, Lukavica is

12     to the south-east from that area.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  It's north-east from

14     there.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D0 -- actually,

16     65 ter 09617, please.  It's an unsigned sketch.

17             Actually, we would need to look at the signed sketch.  This is

18     P1802.  I think that's better, the one that has the cardinal directions

19     marked.  P1802.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you now look at number 2.  There is a building there.  Along

22     the building, the front of the building, a grenade dropped.  It should

23     have arrived from the south-east.  How could that shell have come from

24     the south-east and impacted the very edge of the building?  Did it pass

25     through the building?

Page 8308

 1        A.   It couldn't penetrate the building, the shell.  That's that.

 2        Q.   And knowing where the north is, can you now mark where south-east

 3     is?  East is straight to the right from --

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   How could this shell have come from the south-east and landed in

 6     front of the building that is several storeys high?

 7        A.   It could have come from the east.

 8        Q.   Can you please mark the east, then, so that we can see?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   How did this shell land coming from above or over the garage?

11     And what about this number 3; how could that have landed over this

12     building?

13        A.   They could have impacted there without any problems.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we put "S-E" for the direction of south-east

15     and "E" for the direction of east?

16             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So where is Lukavica here, then?

19        A.   May I look at the other map now, please?

20             JUDGE KWON:  By all means.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you something.

22             In the previous map, where there was the Lukavica road, it was

23     easier for me to determine where Lukavica is.  Now it's a little bit more

24     difficult.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8309

 1        Q.   Well, you said it was on the south-east.  Is Lukavica in the

 2     south-east?

 3        A.   Well, Lukavica is here in the east, east in Dobrinja.  Actually,

 4     in relation to Dobrinja, Lukavica is in the east.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  There seems to be a technical difficulty in the

 6     French translation.  One of the Bench members is not receiving French

 7     translation.

 8             I note the time.  Shall we break, if it is convenient?

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll save this and give it a new number.

11     But, yes, again it should be under seal.

12             Take a look at the pages I referred to earlier, 65 ter 9 -- I

13     forgot the number.  But think about whether we can use it.

14             We'll break.

15             What's the number for this?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That is Exhibit D800, under seal.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll break for a bit more than 20 minutes, and

18     we'll resume at a quarter to 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   Witness, let us wrap up with this incident.  Now, tell us,

24     please, was this sketch of yours an official part of the on-site

25     report -- investigation report, or, rather, was that the only sketch that

Page 8310

 1     was attached to the report?

 2        A.   I don't know if it was the only sketch.

 3        Q.   Did anyone else make a sketch, and does it differ from yours?

 4        A.   I only know that I made the sketch.

 5        Q.   And it is part of this report, and it served as a sketch of the

 6     site, the impact site?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Would you allow me just to take another

 8     look at this sketch, please?

 9        Q.   We do have an unsigned version, and maybe it would be a good idea

10     to show you that.

11        A.   No.  Could you keep this one, please?

12        Q.   All right.  That's 1802, P1802.  Would you like it to be rotated

13     by 180 degrees so that we can have the north where it should be?

14        A.   Very well.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we rotate it, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Now we see that the street is between the two buildings.  This is

18     the Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, where we see the number, the stamp

19     number?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Would you please draw a line through the middle of that street.

22        A.   Well, can I just say something?  I cannot recall precisely every

23     detail of this on-site investigation, so that my answers will not be of

24     the quality desired.

25        Q.   Well, can this sketch be of the quality desired, the sketch that

Page 8311

 1     served the investigators to draw their conclusions?  What kind of

 2     conclusions could they draw, in view of the fact that the north is marked

 3     the way it is here?

 4        A.   I don't know what they could -- what conclusions they could draw.

 5     That was really up to them, not up to me.

 6        Q.   Would you now please take a look at number 2, Witness.  How can

 7     it be that the shell landed by the very edge of the building from the

 8     north, coming in from the north?

 9        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  The shell could land -- could have

10     landed like this, coming from the east, not from the north.  In that

11     case, there wouldn't have been any problem.

12        Q.   Well, do we see the east now, the cardinal point of east?  Now,

13     please take a look at the way you indicated east and north.  There isn't

14     even a 90-degree angle there between them.

15        A.   Well, I can -- I can do that, I can mark it better.

16        Q.   Well, please use a green pen, and maybe you can indicate.

17        A.   Well, let me indicate where the east is [marks] in relation to

18     what I marked as north.  Now here we see that they are correlated.

19        Q.   Would you now please draw a line through the middle of this

20     street, Oslobodilaca Sarajeva Street, in green.

21        A.   Yes, I will.  Here it is [marks].

22        Q.   To the left we see one building, on the right-hand side another

23     building, and then behind the building there's a courtyard; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the building that we see lying horizontally as we see it

Page 8312

 1     here, it lies almost east-west; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to tender

 4     this.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, actually, this building, its

 6     orientation is south-east, approximately, south-east.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you know what your vantage point was when you took the photos?

 9     Do you know where you were?

10        A.   No, no.

11        Q.   Would you please now mark Lukavica here on this sketch.

12        A.   Well, it is to the east, and bearing south-east.  Lukavica is a

13     large area.

14        Q.   Well, could you mark the barracks, the military installations?

15     Would you mark that?

16        A.   Sir, I was a student in Lukavica, and I'm very familiar with

17     Lukavica.  It's an entire complex of buildings, of barracks.  They're all

18     one next to the other.  It's one compound.  There are roads between them

19     and then the next barracks lies, so there's a whole series of barracks

20     there.

21        Q.   Very well.  Would you mark it, then, please.  Mark the Lukavica

22     area in relation to the incident site.

23        A.   Well, this is -- this part would be Lukavica [marks].

24        Q.   Well, no, this is Dobrinja still.  But could you just indicate

25     the direction of Lukavica?

Page 8313

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please tender

 3     this?  If the witness can just date and sign it, although I see we have

 4     it.  But perhaps because of these green markings, we should have a new

 5     exhibit adopted.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D801, under seal.

 7             Let's move on.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09617,

 9     page 26.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P1710, Your

11     Honours.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Are you familiar with this photo?  Have you taken it or -- and

14     what does it depict?

15        A.   Yes, I know this photograph, but I believe that a colleague of

16     mine took it.  I'm not actually sure whether it was me or Sead Besic, a

17     crime investigation technician, who actually took this photo.  And it

18     depicts the spot -- the point of impact of a mortar shell marked with

19     number 1, and then a street plan of Sarajevo was placed there.

20        Q.   So, in other words, you did use a street plan of Sarajevo or a

21     map of Sarajevo when you made this sketch?

22        A.   Well, no, this is part of the investigation, and the portion that

23     had to do with the placing of the map and the compass there is something

24     that the investigators did.  Mr. Sabljica and Zlatko Medjedovic, they are

25     the ones who are responsible for that.  I only took photos.  And I'm not

Page 8314

 1     even sure that I was the one who took this photo.  It could have been my

 2     colleague.

 3        Q.   Tell us, then, what is the direction of this edge, the edge of

 4     this playground?

 5        A.   Well, the playground edge is approximately south-east.  That's

 6     the direction, south-easterly.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we now have page 3 [as interpreted] of this document, please.

 9     I805 [as interpreted], 23, page 23.  Page 23.  The transcript says "3,"

10     but that's an error.  Page 23, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know this place?

13        A.   I do, because that's the place where we conducted the on-site

14     investigation.

15        Q.   Very well.  Could you now please tell us what we see in this

16     photo?

17        A.   Well, the photo shows the place where mortar shells landed.

18        Q.   Could you tell us -- could you show the cardinal point north,

19     Witness?

20        A.   No, I couldn't.  Sorry.

21        Q.   What about these buildings; how are they oriented in relation to

22     the playground?  What is their orientation?

23        A.   The northerly direction should be -- can I use the marker, the

24     pen?

25        Q.   Yes, you can use the e-pen.

Page 8315

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   How do you know?

 3        A.   Well, as I look at the map of the city, and using the map, I

 4     would say that this would be approximately the orientation.

 5        Q.   And we can see a path -- a pedestrian path there; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And it runs north-south?

 8        A.   Well, the pedestrian path does not run north-south purely.  It's

 9     a bit to the north-east, approximately.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 1D -- or, rather,

11     I would like to tender this into evidence.  It was admitted as a P

12     exhibit, but with these markings it should be a new one.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I have to emphasise at this moment you

14     have to be more efficient in your cross-examination.  You are dwelling on

15     still the north-east on these pictures and maps.  I think you already

16     made a point, and you could have moved on, on other points, earlier on.

17             We'll admit this, this page.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D802, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then we will move on to

20     a new topic.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness -- oh, we lost it without dating it, but

22     it doesn't matter because it's in the transcript.

23             Let's move on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We'll move on to the

25     next incident.

Page 8316

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In view of the fact that there is no other sketch in this entire

 3     investigation report, we have to conclude that there was no additional

 4     sketch; correct?

 5        A.   Well, if you say so.

 6        Q.   Well, if we did have another sketch, we would take a look at it.

 7             Now, let's move on to the Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva Trg.  Tell

 8     us, please, when did you arrive on site there?

 9        A.   We arrived at the incident site 10 days after the incident,

10     itself, and that's because there was intense shelling and we were

11     prevented from getting there earlier without jeopardising our lives.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what the word "tekbir" means?

13        A.   Of course.

14        Q.   Could you tell us, please.

15        A.   Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with anything in this

16     case.

17        Q.   Well, did you ever hear of Operation Tekbir?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Do you know that on the 15th of June, a large operation was

20     launched, a 1st Corps operation, the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army

21     1st Corps?  This was on the 15th of June, 1995.

22        A.   No.  I was a police officer.  I was not an army member, I was a

23     policeman, so I did not know what the Supreme Command of the BH Army was

24     doing.

25        Q.   Well, it was preparing for the operation earlier on, but on the

Page 8317

 1     15th, the big operation began.  How can you not know that when all the

 2     three divisions were used in this operation, this major offensive, and --

 3     the 12th, 14th and 16th Divisions took part in it.  Do you know that it

 4     was launched then, on the 15th of June?

 5        A.   No.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's take a look at 65 ter

 7     09791.  It may have been admitted previously.  I don't know.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P431, under

 9     seal.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it is under seal, it

11     should not be broadcast in public.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Tell us, are you familiar with this official note?

14        A.   Yes, I am.

15        Q.   It says here that an on-site investigation was carried out 10

16     days after the incident.

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a map, Map 1D2636.

19     1D2636.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you recognise this map, and can you mark on it the incident

22     site?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  This is the Alipasino Polje neighbourhood.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, the witness has already confirmed the

25     location of the incident site for this incident, and he confirmed the

Page 8318

 1     Prosecution's map showing the location.  Perhaps Mr. Karadzic could ask

 2     his questions based on that map.  It might speed things up.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, why not.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the Defence has the

 5     right to test the credibility and reliability of the witness.  For that

 6     reason, we thought we might use another map.  No hard feelings.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you please mark precisely on this map where the incident took

10     place?

11        A.   I cannot mark the incident site exactly on this map because the

12     buildings on Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva are not plotted into this

13     map.  This is a very rough map.  This is a general map showing the street

14     and just a few buildings.  Not all the buildings are shown in it.

15        Q.   Right.  In this map, can you then -- or do you agree that viewing

16     from left to right, we see Standard, Faro Electro [phoen] and Vranica?

17        A.   Yes, yes, I can see.

18        Q.   Then "UPI," "Zora," "TAM"?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Then "ZGP Bosna," "UP Distribution Centre," "Rumenka," [phoen]

21     "TAM," then "Energoinvest," "RMK Wire Factory," and so on and so forth;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you call this whole area, this belt, a

25     residential zone, or is it a purely industrial zone without a single

Page 8319

 1     residential building?

 2        A.   This belt is an industrial zone.  However, it is not purely

 3     industrial.  There are some parts where there are demolished buildings.

 4        Q.   Between Mese Selimovica and --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the names of

 6     the streets?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat the last part of

 8     your question, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you please use a pencil and mark the whole length of

11     Safeta Zajke Street and then Mese Selimovica, and encircle the area that

12     I'm talking about.

13        A.   Yes.  This is Safeta Zajke Street [marks].  It stretches along

14     the length of the city.  And below here is Mese Selimovica Street

15     [marks].

16        Q.   So this is Stupsko Brdo, which was also held by the Serbs [as

17     interpreted] throughout the whole war, and it was important?

18        A.   Of course.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There is a mistake in the

20     transcript.  They were not held by the Serbs, the name of Stupsko Brdo,

21     and it was important.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the Serbs did not hold it.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Now, you're not able to mark the incident site?

25        A.   It's at Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva.  In the map, it's below

Page 8320

 1     "PTT Engineering," somewhere in the middle of the

 2     Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva.  However, this map is not a detailed

 3     one, so I cannot mark it precisely.  So, roughly speaking, around the

 4     middle of this square.

 5        Q.   Do you also see the TV Radio-Television building, the Novi Grad

 6     Assembly building and the Survey Institute?

 7        A.   Yes, they are on the right-hand side of the map.

 8        Q.   Can you please mark Majdanska Street --

 9        A.   This is Majdanska Street [marks].

10        Q.   Thank you.  Safeta Hadzica Street?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Is this the incident place on Safeta Zajke, and with which street

13     does it intersect?

14        A.   I think with Dolacka Street, roughly speaking.  I'm not quite

15     sure.  Anyway, either with Esada Midzica or Dolacka Street.

16        Q.   Please mark it there between the two streets.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   So that's one incident?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   Another one happened near Bitumenka; is that correct?

21        A.   Well, actually, here it is closer to PTT Engineering building.

22        Q.   One is on TV.

23        A.   One is on Majdanska Street, behind the RTV building, the Assembly

24     building.

25        Q.   Do you know which kind of military installations were based in

Page 8321

 1     the Survey Institute?

 2        A.   There were survey maps.

 3        Q.   No, no.  Was there anything else of a military nature housed in

 4     the institute?

 5        A.   I don't know about that.

 6        Q.   Do you know where the police station was here?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.  The police station was above the Municipal Assembly

 8     building, or, rather, on the hill above it.

 9        Q.   To the south of it?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see Geteova Street, and do you agree that it

12     used to be called Cetinjska Street?

13        A.   I believe that Geteova Street was always called Geteova Street.

14        Q.   How about Cetinjska and Klare Cetkin Streets?

15        A.   I know that these streets existed under those names, but I don't

16     know exactly where they were.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We're going to use the transcript and not use other

18     notes.

19             Do you know what the RMK Wire Factory manufactured?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   You don't know that shells were being marked within this whole

22     complex?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Could you please put the date and the number 166.

25        A.   You want me to put the date?

Page 8322

 1        Q.   Yes, the date and number 166 so that it doesn't have to be under

 2     seal.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted into

 5     evidence?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, you said you couldn't exactly mark the

 7     area where the incident the 16th of June, 1995, took place, but could you

 8     roughly circle the area which you said it's below the PTT Engineering and

 9     somewhere in the middle of the street?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I can [marks].

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you put "16" and "6."

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Now, you see Geteova Street.  You'll need this map later for

15     marking, but can you mark Geteova Street now?

16             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be saved as Exhibit D803.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 13564, 65 ter,

19     please.  This is a Prosecution map.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Now, is number 15 the incident site?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   Is number 2 Bitumenka?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is number 20 the PTT Engineering building?

Page 8323

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Just a little patience, please.

 3             How was it stated in the report concerning the direction from

 4     which the shell came?

 5        A.   In my report, the shell came from the west.

 6        Q.   Directly from the west or maybe north-west?

 7        A.   West, north-west, roughly speaking.

 8        Q.   So if it came from the west or north-west, the trajectory does

 9     not go through the PTT, but it goes either through Bitumenka building or

10     the student dormitory.  Can you encircle the student dormitory section in

11     this map?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes, I can see them [marks].  I have encircled the

13     dormitory with the colour blue.

14        Q.   Can you mark it with number 1.

15        A.   [Marks].  I did that.

16        Q.   Do you see the "Oslobodjenje" building?

17        A.   Yes, I do.  How shall I mark it?

18        Q.   Encircle it and put the number 3.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Can you please now draw a line, according to what you deduced in

21     your report, corresponding to a north-westerly direction with respect to

22     the impact point?

23        A.   [Marks].  I did it.

24        Q.   Can you draw it all the way to the impact point?

25        A.   Yes, I can do that [marks].

Page 8324

 1        Q.   Start from the impact point.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Okay, that's fine.  According to the report, it flew over

 4     Bitumenka.  Do you know what was housed in Bitumenka building during the

 5     war?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7        Q.   You don't know that it served as a military facility for military

 8     production?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please put the date and your signature.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D804, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09819 [as

16     interpreted].  I believe there's no signature there, and, therefore, it

17     can be broadcast.  09189.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  The first page does have a signature.  The second

19     and third pages can be broadcast, indeed.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go straight to page 3.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Are you familiar with this sketch?

23        A.   Yes.  This sketch represents the place where the projectile

24     landed next to a building number 10 at Trg Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please explain to everyone present -- you

Page 8325

 1     mentioned the dimensions 1110 and 780, and in this particular case you

 2     defined characteristic points with respect to the building.

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   By using this sketch, can you please mark the direction from

 5     which the projectile arrived, or is it already marked?  Is that number 4?

 6        A.   Yes, this dotted line marked "4" indicates the direction from

 7     which the projectile came.

 8        Q.   And the north is correctly marked here; is that right?

 9        A.   Well, north should be corrected slightly upwards.

10        Q.   Well, please do that.

11        A.   [Marks].  In fact, that's how it should be.

12        Q.   So number 4, this line, is -- indicates the line of the

13     direction, and it corresponds with the longer axis of the crater?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Since we have entered some changes, can we please

16     have the date and number 166.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Is it possible that this projectile came from Lukavica?

19        A.   In my opinion, no, it couldn't have come from Lukavica.

20        Q.   In the summary, it is said that Incident 15 from the G list, the

21     projectile came from Lukavica.  Table G.  So something is not correct

22     here; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.  However, in the summary which was prepared by

24     Mr. Mujo Musagic, he says that, according to his opinion, the projectile

25     most likely came from Lukavica, most probably.  But my opinion, based on

Page 8326

 1     the diametre of the crater, which is cylindrically shaped, I deduced that

 2     it came from the direction of west or north-west.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please have this

 4     admitted into evidence, this sketch?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D805, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D2637 now, please.

 8             Just one moment, please.  Can we look at the whole image.  This

 9     is a zoomed-in section of Google Maps.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you see Bitumenka and the PTT buildings here?  And if so, can

12     you please mark them here on this image.

13        A.   Yes, just one moment.  Let me take a look first.

14        Q.   Yes, you can look at the location of the incident.

15        A.   [Marks].  This is Bitumenka, I think.  I don't know if it's the

16     whole thing, but Bitumenka is here.

17        Q.   All right, thank you.  Can you mark that with the number 1?

18        A.   Yes, here is the number 1 [marks].

19        Q.   PTT?

20        A.   And this is the PTT Engineering building [marks].

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put the number 2 next to the PTT building,

22     and can you mark the location where the incident occurred with the

23     number 3.

24        A.   [Marks] Yes.  The location of the incident is approximately here.

25     Which number should I mark it with?

Page 8327

 1        Q.   With the number 3.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   This is the pedestrian path along which the projectile dropped;

 4     is that correct?

 5        A.   It fell on the pedestrian path, on it precisely.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the date and "KDZ166," please.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And can you mark the direction from which the projectile came, in

 9     your opinion?

10        A.   [Marks] I've marked it.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we tender this, please?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D806, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D2638, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you agree that with this Google, this picture, this diagram is

18     placed, and that the direction of the street, or the main street, or the

19     boulevard, the Bulevar Mese Selimovica, actually shown in the sketch is

20     an extension of what is shown on the Google?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you agree, then, that these two parallel lines marked with the

23     1 and 2 indicate what you marked as the direction of the projectile that

24     created this crater?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8328

 1        Q.   Do you agree that this sketch shows the incoming trajectory,

 2     marked with the number 1, passing above the Bitumenka?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Line number 2 indicates the pedestrian path or the edge of the

 5     building where the shell dropped; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we tender this?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say line number 2 or 3?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3.  Lines 1 and 2 are the same.

11     They are parallel.  They indicate the direction.  Line number 3 actually

12     indicates the direction of the pedestrian path or the wall of that side

13     of the building.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we will admit this.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well, no objection, again these lines having

16     been placed there by the Defence team.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D807.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We've lost the picture, it's gone,

21     but actually we should have corrected that north there.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And having that in mind, we thus agree that this projectile came

24     from the north-west - here it is - isn't that right?  And the north-east

25     is corrected here, isn't it?  And the shell came from the north-west,

Page 8329

 1     above the Bitumenka factory; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Sorry, objection.

 5             The last part of Mr. Karadzic's question said "The shell came

 6     from the north-west."  I don't know if that's a mistranslation, but the

 7     evidence is not that this was a shell.  The evidence is that this was a

 8     modified air-bomb.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "Projectile," if it's easier,

11     "projectile."  Thank you.

12             We're going to move to the next incident.

13             Has this been adopted, has it got a number; no?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it was admitted as Exhibit D807.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You also processed this incident of the 24th of May in the

17     Safeta Zajke Street; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What was the name of that street before it was called

20     Safeta Zajke Street?

21        A.   I don't know.  I couldn't say.

22        Q.   Do we agree that it was perhaps Drinska Street, but, in any case,

23     it's a continuation of Drinska Street?

24        A.   I really couldn't tell you, specifically, because I wasn't

25     familiar with that street before the war.

Page 8330

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we look at 65 ter 21214, please.  21214.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Are you familiar with this part of the panorama of the city of

 5     Sarajevo?

 6        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with this view.  In the middle of the

 7     photograph is the building of the radio-television of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina.  In front of that building, closer to us, is the building of

 9     the Municipal Assembly, and then next to the Municipal Assembly is the

10     building of the Geodesic Institute.  A little bit in front of that is the

11     transformer station building.

12        Q.   Would you kindly mark all of those places with numbers.  Let's

13     start with the television building.  Could you mark that with the

14     number 1, please.

15        A.   [Marks] Number 1.

16        Q.   Number 2, the Municipal Assembly of Novo Sarajevo?

17        A.   Not Novo Sarajevo, but Municipal Assembly of Novi Grad [marks].

18        Q.   Yes, that's right, Novi Grad.  Number 3, the Geodesic Institute?

19        A.   Here's the Geodesic Institute [marks].

20        Q.   Number 4, the transformer station building?

21        A.   [Marks] Number 4, done.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the police station building?

23        A.   Just a moment.

24        Q.   It's south in relation to the number 4.

25        A.   Yes, it's south in relation to number 4, but I'm just trying to

Page 8331

 1     orient myself.  You cannot really see it very well on this image, the

 2     police station building.  Actually, the police station building is here.

 3     Shall I mark it with the number 5?

 4        Q.   Yes, please do.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   That's correct, thank you.  Can you now mark the Majdanska axis?

 7        A.   This is Majdanska Street [marks].  Just below the number 4, the

 8     Majdanska Street is marked in blue.

 9        Q.   Does it go up towards Safeta Hadzica, towards us?

10        A.   Yes, it lies towards us.  From the Municipal Assembly building

11     towards us.

12        Q.   Can you please mark that in the middle?

13        A.   Mark what?

14        Q.   The middle line of the street going towards Majdanska.

15        A.   Well, this is what I've indicated below the number 4 with the

16     blue line.

17        Q.   And does it end there?

18        A.   I don't know if it continues onwards.  I'm not sure where the

19     street forks.  The place where I stopped is the intersection, so I don't

20     know in which direction it continues.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   What was behind the television --

24             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters couldn't follow your last question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said that we're not going to be

Page 8332

 1     marking the western part of the photograph now.  I asked the witness to

 2     tell us what this big industrial building is behind the television

 3     building.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is the building

 5     of the wire factory.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please mark that with the number 6.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And do you see these buildings farther to the east,

10     the red ones?  What are those buildings?

11        A.   All of that is the wire factory.

12        Q.   Could you put the number 6 above those buildings as well, please.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   And do you know where Sik, Graz, and Uniklima are?  Do you know

15     where Uniklima is there?

16        A.   I know where Sik is.  It's here [marks].  It's below the wire

17     factory buildings, approximately -- approximately here [marks], let's

18     say.  I've marked it with the number 7.  That is the Sik building.

19        Q.   And the Uniklima is a little bit farther to the east in relation

20     to that?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct.

22        Q.   And these domes, this is Igman; is that correct?  Actually, is

23     that Astra, is that Astra?

24        A.   No, no, that is the building of the Sarajevo City Transport

25     Company.

Page 8333

 1        Q.   Can I please ask you to mark in Majdanska and Safeta Zajke?  Do

 2     you agree that Safeta Zajke is immediately across the street?  If you can

 3     mark the Safeta Zajke Street length-wise, and if you can use red to

 4     indicate how the street lies.

 5        A.   Just one moment, please.  [Marks] This is Safeta Zajke Street,

 6     approximately.

 7        Q.   Can we have number 7 -- no, number 8?  Can I get number 8?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Can I ask you now to mark where the projectile dropped on the

10     Safeta Zajke Street as we see it marked on this photograph?

11        A.   I couldn't really mark it precisely.  Looking at this photograph,

12     I cannot tell where the projectile fell.  If you have some photographs

13     that are more tightly focused on the location, perhaps I could tell you

14     that.

15        Q.   Could you indicate where the projectile dropped in

16     Majdanska Street, perhaps?

17        A.   I can do it for Majdanska.  The projectile impacted here [marks],

18     let's say.

19        Q.   Can we mark this with the number 9?

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   An arrow.  Actually, we have the number 9, and the spot -- the

22     dot above the number 9 indicates the location where the projectile fell?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Would it help in this case if --

25             JUDGE KWON:  If you don't mind, the witness may take a look at

Page 8334

 1     the map which is in front of him, which was shown to him during the

 2     examination-in-chief.  And after consulting that map, he can mark the

 3     place on this picture.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was just going to say that.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   And you can use the map.  I can also offer the map for you, or

 7     perhaps you have it in front of you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  If the usher is kind enough to show him Sheet 11 of

 9     this binder.  Is that Sheet 11?  That's the exhibit we admitted as P1803,

10     and you confirmed that.  Do you remember that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I remember what?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think you were asked only about 15.  I'm not sure

13     whether he was asked about green 11.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  I think that's correct, we didn't -- we didn't deal

15     with green 11.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That was my mistake.

17             Can you confirm or not that the number 11, marked as green,

18     reflects the place the incident took place?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can confirm that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then could you mark on this picture where it would

21     be.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this in line -- along the same line north-south, 13, 12, 17,

25     11; correct?

Page 8335

 1        A.   Well, you can see it's right here [indicates].  Should I put a

 2     number there?

 3        Q.   Well, perhaps you can put an arrow there and the number 10 next

 4     to it.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   This is precisely above the Vase Miskin Crni factory; correct?

 7        A.   No.  That factory, Vase Miskin Crni, was some way off.  This is

 8     actually close to the factory -- the wire factory in Pofalici.

 9        Q.   Yes, my apologies.  So this is just above the -- right over the

10     wire factory, behind the PTT building; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Well, would you leave the number 10 there, then, or would you

13     move it a bit to the east?

14        A.   Well, I can't really be more specific.  As you can see yourself

15     in this photo, these are family homes.  They're at the bottom of the

16     photo, so that you can't even see the street, itself, let alone the

17     buildings, the demolished buildings.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter correction:  The family homes.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   But above the PTT building, closer -- behind the TV, if you look

21     at the map, to the north-west, the bearings are 13, 12, 17, 11, if you

22     look at that, that's in line with that, isn't it?

23        A.   17 and 11 have the south-south-east bearing.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.  To make sure

25     there is no misunderstanding, there is no mention made of the PTT

Page 8336

 1     building.  Everything we've said here had to do with the TV building and

 2     the wire factory.  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Now, would you please -- could you please date and indicate

 5     "KDZ166" as a signature there?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this, if I

 8     may.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D808, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Have you already said that you did not know that shells were

13     produced in this wire factory, in this compound?

14        A.   No, I didn't know that.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we have 1D02171.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   While we are waiting for that:  How far is that factory, the wire

19     factory, from the incident site; 50 or 100 metres away?

20        A.   No, no, I think it's a bit further away.

21        Q.   Well, you tell us.

22        A.   Well, I can't really tell you as I sit here, but I think it's

23     about 300 to 500 metres away.  I can't really be very precise because

24     there is a railway track running there and then there is a green area, so

25     I can't really be precise.

Page 8337

 1        Q.   Very well.  We can actually look at Map 11 and measure that.

 2             Now, would you please take a look at the report by Mr. Zecevic,

 3     where he speaks about the production of mortar ammunition that is cast in

 4     this factory.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Why do we not have an English version of this?  We

 6     should.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, we're looking for the number of that right now.

 8     It's not indicated in the list Defence gave us.  We're trying to find it.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, in the meantime, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see number 11 just one more

11     time in order to establish how far the factory is from the incident site.

12     That's 65 ter 13564.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Or shall we see the marked version?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can see the marked version as

15     well, yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  D808.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that's a photo, but what

18     I am asking for is the Map 11.

19             JUDGE KWON:  D804.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Witness, do you agree that we have a scale at the bottom which

22     shows and marks -- each bar is 100 or 200 metres?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Would you agree that 100 metres here is represented as 1

25     centimetre?  And if necessary, we can measure that.

Page 8338

 1        A.   Well, yes, approximately.

 2        Q.   Do you agree that between the closest edge of the factory and the

 3     incident point, there is less than 1 centimetre on the map, in other

 4     words, less than 100 metres?

 5        A.   Well, no, I think it's a bit more, it's a bit longer or farther

 6     away.

 7        Q.   Well, here, I'll give you this scale ruler, and maybe you can

 8     look at it.  It is less than 100 metres.  Just compare it to the scale

 9     ruler.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness has the original map in front of

11     him.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Here we have the scale, and it is my position that this is about

14     70 to 80 metres away, the closest edge, the closest corner of this

15     factory, because if we look at the scale ruler, we see that it's between

16     .7 and .8 centimetres.

17        A.   Well, according to this scale ruler, it is about 100 metres away.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Could we now please have 1D2634.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You made the sketch for this incident as well; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you actually -- does this sketch consist of two different

24     parts, when you drew it, and we actually put them together?  Are these

25     the two separate -- the two parts of the same sketch?

Page 8339

 1        A.   Yes, they are.

 2        Q.   Would you tell us what kind of surface this projectile landed on.

 3        A.   The projectile landed on an asphalt road, a paved road.  A

 4     crossroads, actually, on a paved road.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is the north, as indicated here, correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does that mean that Safeta Zajke Street, in relation to the

 8     north, actually forms an angle -- an obtuse angle?

 9        A.   Well, the Safeta Zajke Street is at about a 90-degree angle to

10     the north line.

11        Q.   Then we would need to correct the indication for north here;

12     correct?

13        A.   Well, just a little bit, but it's approximately at an angle of 90

14     degrees to it.

15        Q.   Would you then please draw a line along the Safeta Zajke Street

16     and Esada Midzica?  Would you just draw the lines to meet so that we can

17     see what angle they form.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Would you then mark the north here on this sketch.

20        A.   Well, could we rotate this sketch by 180 degrees, or, rather, by

21     90 degrees?  You're correct.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please rotate it by 90

23     degrees to the left.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We can mark it again.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, the other way.

Page 8340

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What Mr. Karadzic asked you, Mr. Witness, was

 2     to draw a line along with those two streets.  I'm not sure whether it's

 3     necessary, but could you mark the correct direction of north on this

 4     sketch, Mr. Witness?

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So we can see that there is a deviation of several degrees; maybe

 8     25 to 30 degrees?

 9        A.   Well, I would say 15 degrees to 20 degrees.

10        Q.   Thank you.  According to your findings, the findings of your

11     on-site investigative team, what type of projectile landed there?

12        A.   In my view, this was a modified air-bomb.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what made Mr. Zecevic claim that this was

14     an aerosol bomb?

15        A.   I don't know.  I'm not an expert on ballistics or explosive

16     devices.  But in my experience, when I attended other on-site

17     investigations, I know that this bomb had rocket motors fitted on them,

18     and they were used -- that's the Oganj rocket type, and these rocket

19     motors were used with modified air-bombs.  But I really can't tell you,

20     because I'm not an expert, what exact type of bomb this was.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on the sketch here, you only indicated the

22     shrapnel fragments and some other points.  Could you please tell us what

23     you showed and marked on this sketch here.

24        A.   Well, on this sketch I marked, with a number 0, my vantage point.

25     That's where I began -- that's where I started compiling this sketch

Page 8341

 1     from.

 2        Q.   Go on.

 3        A.   Numbers 1, 2 and 3 indicate the point of impact of the shell, or

 4     that projectile, and also projectile fragments that were found in the

 5     crater that was left behind the projectile.  Number 3 indicates shrapnel

 6     or debris from this bomb that exploded.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  How did you determine what the position of the crater

 8     was, and did you do it yourself or did you have some assistance?

 9        A.   Well, the position of this crater was not a difficult thing to

10     determine because the crater was of cylindrical shape, it was an

11     elongated cylinder, and you could clearly see -- based on that, you could

12     easily conclude where this projectile had come from.

13        Q.   Who measured the sizes of the crater?

14        A.   I did.

15        Q.   And why did you not indicate the measurements here that would

16     help to exactly determine the position of this crater?  Why are those

17     measurements missing from this sketch?

18        A.   Well, quite the contrary, we do have the measurements.  I

19     proceeded from this point, point 0, and the other point -- reference

20     point along the street, as the starting points, and then I connected the

21     apex of the crater and the base of the crater with lines, the triangle

22     there, and I have indicated exactly the measurements of the point where

23     the crater was -- where the impression of the crater was.  This could

24     perhaps be moved a little bit to the west along Safeta Zajke Street,

25     perhaps some 100 metres farther to the west.  That's perhaps where this

Page 8342

 1     crater should be.

 2        Q.   Well, let's do it.  Can you make it in this sketch?

 3        A.   Well, this sketch is okay the way I made it.  What I'm referring

 4     to is the general view of the town.  When we looked at number 11, it is a

 5     little bit to the west.

 6        Q.   Why don't we have the measurements of the sides of this angle?

 7     "Sides of the triangle."  I am correcting the record.  The length of the

 8     kathete of the triangle.

 9        A.   I don't know.  Apparently, I haven't recorded them.

10        Q.   You said that the crater was 250 centimetres long, 130 wide, and

11     30 centimetres deep; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You signed that and handed it in on the 25th of May, 1995; is

14     that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Why is it, then, that in the official report we have different

17     measurements?  Let's look, for example, on page -- but before that, can

18     we have this admitted into evidence, and then we call up another

19     document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does he need to sign it, mark it in

22     any way?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If you could do that, Mr. Witness.  That will

24     be Exhibit D809.

25             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

Page 8343

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we now have 65 ter 0 --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time.  It's time for a break.

 5             We'll break for half an hour.

 6             You do not have much time left, so plan your cross-examination to

 7     conclude as soon as possible.

 8             We'll resume at 20 to 1.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             I need to raise one scheduling matter briefly.  I've already

14     broached this with the Defence.

15             Yesterday afternoon, we were advised by the Victim and Witness

16     Unit that the next witness has requested a Dutch interpreter.  Because it

17     was a holiday, there was little we could do yesterday, so we attempted

18     immediately this morning to make arrangements through the proper channels

19     within the ICTY to schedule an interpreter.  Although we were initially

20     informed that it could not be done for a matter of two to three weeks, it

21     now appears that we will have an interpreter for tomorrow morning.  But

22     it was impossible to arrange one for today.  We'll, of course, keep the

23     Court apprised if the current information somehow changes, but that seems

24     to be the status at the moment.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

Page 8344

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             If I may observe, in light of this information, that that means

 4     that I'm going to have some more time for the remaining three incidents;

 5     is that correct?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you have any explanation why the size of the

 9     crater differs from those that you have given?  And I'm referring to the

10     sizes in the official report, as opposed to your report.

11        A.   I have no explanation for that.  What I did is what I did, and

12     what others wrote in the official report is what they wrote.

13        Q.   Would you like us to call up this report so that you can see it?

14        A.   No.  It's not relevant to me.  I did what I wrote down, and I

15     don't know what other people did or what they wrote down.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the Registry whether this

17     official report was admitted into evidence?

18             Can I have 65 ter 09775, page 1.  And we need not broadcast it.

19             If it's not in evidence, can we please have it admitted, and can

20     it be only shown in the courtroom without being broadcast?

21             Is this page 1?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you recognise it?  Do you recognise your name under one of

24     those numbers?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 8345

 1        Q.   Let's look at the last paragraph, and you can see that these

 2     measurements differ from the ones that you provided; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we have this admitted into evidence?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D810, under seal, Your Honours.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you visit the site the following day or the same day?

10        A.   On the same day.

11        Q.   At what time did the incident happen?

12        A.   I don't know exactly the hour.  All I know is that we examined

13     the crime scene on the same day.

14        Q.   At what time did you go to the site?

15        A.   I cannot tell you, precisely, the time.

16        Q.   Do you remember what kind of weather it was on that day?

17        A.   It was a nice, sunny day.

18        Q.   Is it true that you had received information about this shell at

19     1400 hours?

20        A.   I cannot give you any accurate and precise answer.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have again the last

22     document, D810.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   It would be very important, how long it took you to get to the

25     scene.

Page 8346

 1        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  The procedure of visiting the crime

 2     scene is as follows:  In the area of a particular public security station

 3     where an incident happens, the inspector on duty gathers a team, an

 4     investigating team, to visit the crime scene.  And all these people who

 5     are supposed to go to the investigation site, that is to say, the judge,

 6     the criminal investigation inspector, the criminal investigation

 7     technician, the counter-sabotage technician, all of them from that

 8     station get together at the station that covers the specific part of the

 9     town.

10        Q.   Do you accept what is written in paragraph 2, that you visited

11     the scene at 1400 hours?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can we please have -- now have 65 ter 09773, and we can go

15     straight to page 3.  If there's something on page 1, that something

16     should be -- should not be broadcast.

17             But let's correct the transcript.  I think it should state

18     "1430."

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what you said.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   But that is what is written in the report?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   So you took these photographs at 1430 hours; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Based on these shades, can you tell us the orientation of the

Page 8347

 1     incident site?

 2        A.   Well, I can't do that based on the shades.

 3        Q.   Where would the sun be -- the position of the sun be at 1430

 4     hours?  Can we agree that it is somewhere to the south, at zenith at

 5     1430?

 6        A.   No, the sun would have passed the zenith point at 1430.

 7        Q.   We are talking about summertime, 1430, in May, which should be

 8     1330 regular time; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   So the sun is towards the south, and it's casting the shadow to

11     the north?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can we then deduce that the remnants of this engine are casting a

14     shadow approximately to the north?

15        A.   No.  Viewed from this angle, it seems that they're casting the

16     shadow towards the east.  If we suppose that the north coincides with the

17     direction of the shadow, then the east would be to the right.

18        Q.   But where is this shadow pointing if the sun is on the south?

19        A.   Well, I suppose towards the north.

20        Q.   So where from did this projectile come?

21        A.   Well, in my report, I stated that it was the south-easterly

22     direction.

23        Q.   Would, then, these fragments be distributed or laid as it is if

24     it had come from the south-east?

25        A.   Well, let me tell you that -- let me tell you -- well, the way

Page 8348

 1     that you are thinking, you can put them in all directions.  However, I

 2     can tell you, with full responsibility, that this was a pretty clear

 3     case, because the crater was cylindrical -- it was in the shape of an

 4     elongated cylinder, and based on that shape, one can determine the

 5     direction from which the projectile came.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So this shadow points approximately towards the

 7     north, and the sun is in the south; is that correct?

 8        A.   Well, you can't put it exactly like that.  You cannot take things

 9     into account in that manner.  It could be just one of the ways to look at

10     it.  If you look at how these rocket motors that propelled the projectile

11     are stuck into the ground, and when the fuel burned out, it was consumed

12     by the rocket motor, the projectile started descending, and eventually it

13     landed.  Now, how it landed, and after the detonation and the explosion,

14     how its fragments are distributed, it's the subject for a philosophical

15     discussion, not a serious one.

16        Q.   Well, we need a serious one.  Tell me, in the photograph below,

17     can you mark the longer -- is the longer one between 1 and 2?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  Roughly speaking, that's the direction of the crater,

19     the cylinder that was made by this projectile at impact.

20        Q.   Can you connect the longer axis between 1 and 2 of the crater

21     with one line?

22        A.   Yes, I can [marks].

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please put the date.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to tender this

Page 8349

 1     into evidence.  Can this be admitted into evidence?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D811, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now have 1D2634.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   While we are waiting:  Can we agree that you made a sketch here

 8     in two segments and that we put them together like we did the last time?

 9     Did you make this sketch?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   What was the approximate length of the motor -- of the rocket

12     motor that was found in the crater?

13        A.   I cannot tell you exactly.

14        Q.   Nobody measured them; is that correct?

15        A.   I don't know.  I didn't.

16        Q.   In the report on the criminal investigation of the site, it was

17     decided that the projectile that landed there was probably a modified

18     aerial bomb with four rocket motors.  On the basis of which did you

19     determine the number of motors?

20        A.   I will answer your previous question concerning the length of the

21     rocket motor.

22             In the previous photograph, one can see the cylinder of the

23     rocket, and the first section of the cylinder is actually the engine or

24     the motor, and it's a smaller part of the cylinder.  The bigger part of

25     the cylinder is the place where the fuel is stored, and the engine,

Page 8350

 1     itself, consumes this fuel during its flight.  In other words, this

 2     cylinder is made up of two sections; the motor and the fuel storage

 3     section.

 4             Now, as for your second question, how did we arrive at the

 5     conclusion that there were four motors, four rocket motors, that was our

 6     assumption because it was logical that if you have an object that you

 7     want to project into a sloped trajectory from all four points, you need

 8     to attach the motors that will carry it evenly through the air so, once

 9     you fire it, it will have an even trajectory.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Why do you say "most probably"?  Because you couldn't

11     establish that beyond any doubt?

12        A.   Well, let me tell you something.  This was non-standard weapons.

13     It was not a weapon from the arsenal of any army.  It was a make-shift

14     weapon made by attaching rocket motors to the bombs.  Normally, the bombs

15     are dropped from planes, but your soldiers manufactured this weapon in

16     order to fire it from the ground, from the trucks.  It was mounted on

17     trucks.

18        Q.   Did your soldiers have that?

19        A.   No, no, they didn't.

20        Q.   How do you know that?

21        A.   Well, you know very well our soldiers didn't have any weapons at

22     all, almost, so it was very difficult.  You know that very well.

23        Q.   Did both sides -- or did all of the three sides have the weapons

24     that they inherited from the Yugoslav People's Army?

25        A.   Yes, all the sides had such kind of weapons.  The only difference

Page 8351

 1     was that the Bosnian side, the majority of its weapons were light

 2     weapons, whereas the Bosnian Serb side had all types of weapons that

 3     existed in the arsenal of the former Yugoslav People's Army, and that's a

 4     huge difference.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're not going to tackle this

 6     subject any further.

 7             Can we now look at 65 ter 10350, page 2.  And do not broadcast

 8     it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  This is Exhibit P1811.  It's a public exhibit.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, under B, does it say -- just a moment.  Number 7, it says

12     that this was most probably a modified aerial bomb with four rocket

13     motors.  Are you familiar with what kind of rockets Plamen and Oganj have

14     and how many rockets each of them have -- or, rather, how many motors

15     each of these rockets have?

16        A.   No, I don't know much about multiple rocket-launchers.  But

17     during investigations that I conducted, I had an opportunity to come

18     across their motors, and that's, more or less, all I know about it.

19        Q.   Did the BH Army in Sarajevo have a multiple rocket-launcher?

20        A.   I don't know that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we now have 65 ter 09786, please, page 3.  09786.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   While we are waiting for that to come up:  How is it possible

25     that the report states that there were five rockets recovered, based on

Page 8352

 1     the debris that you collected on site, actually?

 2        A.   I can't answer that question because I did not participate in the

 3     on-site investigation itself.  That was done by other people, and they

 4     conducted their investigation on the basis of the recovered trace

 5     evidence.

 6        Q.   Well, take a look here.  It says here in the other -- in the

 7     first paragraph here, it says that these were -- actually, on the first

 8     page, the first bullet says:

 9             "Five steel deformed tubes ..."

10             Whereas it says that four rockets of 128 millimetres were

11     recovered.  Can you see this?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 3, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Yes, and here we can see it says a Grad-type rocket, and we can

16     see here that:

17             "The device described above was most probably made of a

18     destructive fab contact fuse aircraft bomb and five

19     122-millimetre Grad-type rockets which served as a power unit."

20             So here it says "122-millimetre Grad-type rockets," whereas there

21     it said "122 millimetre" and "Oganj rockets."  So how did that happen?

22        A.   Well, I can't really answer that question, because I'm not an

23     expert for explosive devices, nor am I a ballistics expert.  My

24     responsibility was just to collect the trace evidence and to hand them

25     over to experts who were to conduct their expertise.

Page 8353

 1        Q.   But do you agree with me that these were 122-millimetre Grad-type

 2     rockets or Oganj 128 millimetres?

 3        A.   Well, I can't really tell you with any accuracy.

 4        Q.   Well, if I were to tell you that the BH Army did have VBRs, what

 5     would they fire from those VBRs, the multiple rocket-launchers?

 6        A.   I can't answer that question.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that there was an error

 8     in the transcript.  Oganj is 128-millimetre, that's the calibre, and

 9     for Grad, the calibre is 122 millimetres.

10             Very well, thank you.  I would like to tender this document now,

11     if that's -- if it hasn't already been admitted.

12             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues]... 1324.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could we have the number again?  P ...?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1324, Your Honours.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can just add something.

16             I stated in my report that this was the -- these were the most

17     probable rockets.  I really am not an expert on these devices and

18     different types of projectiles.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   But it also says, on the first page, that the on-site

21     investigation was conducted on the basis of the trace evidence collected

22     on site; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, would it have been significant if you had -- if you knew

25     that the BH Army did have VBR rocket-launchers, multiple

Page 8354

 1     rocket-launchers?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know.  I don't know what you want me to answer.

 3        Q.   Well, your conclusion was that this projectile had come from the

 4     south-east; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You said that it came from the aggressor positions.  How did you

 7     come to that conclusion, first of all, that it had come from the

 8     south-east?  And then on what did you base your conclusion that it had

 9     come from the aggressor position?  I assume that you meant by "aggressor"

10     the Serb position.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Well, I won't go into that discussion now, but what was the basis

13     on which you determined the incoming trajectory and the range?

14        A.   I did not establish the range, nor do I know exactly what the

15     range was, but I do know, and I'm pretty certain of that, that the

16     BH Army did not shell its own positions.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So was that your criterion?

18        A.   Well, that was the only logical conclusion, and that's the only

19     way that one would act.  Only a person who is not quite normal would open

20     fire on him or herself.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we now please have 1D2635.  1D2635, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree that your sketch and the map actually are

25     consistent, that Safeta Zajke Street is consistent on both maps; they

Page 8355

 1     overlap?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you agree that the impact point is well marked on the map as

 4     well, that it's right across the street from the wire factory?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is this incoming trajectory relatively well transferred from the

 7     sketch to the map?  Does it actually show the exact orientation?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you now see that the inaccurate determination of where the

10     north point is is relevant in this case?

11        A.   Yes, but we corrected it.

12        Q.   Yes, we did.  But what, then, about the crater base?  Should we

13     correct that as well?

14        A.   No, no, that should remain as it is, and the south-easterly

15     direction should remain as well.

16        Q.   Well, how can they remain the same if the north bearing is

17     different?  Then, I assume, the basis of the crater should also be more

18     in a southerly direction.

19        A.   Well, no, because as a reference point I took this building --

20     or, rather, the fence around this building which runs parallel to

21     Safeta Zajke Street, so that it is not at all difficult to determine the

22     northerly direction.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             I would like to tender this document, please.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Under the same understanding, i.e., that the marking

Page 8356

 1     was done by the Defence, we can admit it.  Exhibit D812.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  In the official report, it says --

 3     that's 65 ter 09775, on page 1 -- it shouldn't be broadcast, although we

 4     did say it was a public document.  So 65 ter 09775.  It may have already

 5     been assigned a P number.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Did we not give D810 for that?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The reason why the Court Deputy put it under seal, I

 9     take it, is because you named his name appearing on that report.  That's

10     why.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Otherwise, we could have put it in the public

13     domain.

14             Please proceed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No problem, it can be under seal.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Now, Witness, can you see the last paragraph here?  Look at where

18     it says:

19             "The crater produced by the projectile is orientated towards the

20     south," or more correctly, more precisely, "towards Lukavica, where the

21     aggressor's firing line is situated."

22             That's the fifth line in the last paragraph.

23        A.   Yes, I just saw it.  That is the official report and the findings

24     of the individual who drafted this report, whereas I drafted my own

25     report, and I stand by what I wrote.

Page 8357

 1        Q.   And then it goes on to say the crater --

 2             "Two pipes, the ends of a 128-millimetre rocket, were found in

 3     the crater, with a fuel reservoir and a rocket motor.  Wings, rocket

 4     stabilisers were found close and wrapped around with steel wire.  The

 5     tails were facing south towards Lukavica."

 6             And here we can see that they were actually orientated towards

 7     the south.  So how is it that these findings actually differ from your

 8     conclusions?

 9        A.   Well, I did not draw the conclusions that you inferred.  Your

10     inference was your conclusion, and I stand by what my conclusions were.

11     Now, what you are proposing here is a hypothesis that is purely of a

12     philosophical nature.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now just briefly pull up the

14     sketch that we just saw a moment ago.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you need?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we have two remaining

17     incidents that we would like to deal with, and that's without the

18     incident involving the death of the little girl.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now, Witness, would you agree with me that the direction that you

21     marked there was not the southerly direction and that the southerly

22     direction would actually be at the perpendicular angle to this image?

23        A.   Well, yes, I agree.  This is actually the south/south-easterly

24     direction.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.  Very well,

Page 8358

 1     thank you.  No, we don't need this sketch anymore.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, conclude in 15 minutes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, I absolutely

 4     cannot manage that.  We both have Hrasnica and Majdanska Street, and

 5     these are two very significant incidents for my case, because if I were

 6     unable to question this witness, that would mean that my defence was not

 7     properly completed.

 8             Now, to give me three hours for five incidents, that's really --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you wasted a lot of time asking

10     repetitive questions, useless questions.  We'll conclude this witness

11     today and leave two or three minutes at the end for an administrative

12     matter.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we extend today's session

14     through 2.30?

15             JUDGE KWON:  That's a very interesting question.  Let me check

16     the court schedule today.

17             I need to hear from the staff, which I will hear --

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Would it be agreeable to the Prosecution,

20     Mr. Gaynor?

21             MR. GAYNOR:  That's fine, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Let's carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

24             But we need to -- in any event, that being possible as well, we

25     need to have a short break to change the tape.

Page 8359

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We will save some time.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Now, you recall, Witness, that -- you recall the Majdanska

 4     incident.  That was on the 24th of May, and that's Schedule 12 in

 5     Appendix 6.  Now, could you recall which happened first?  Well, you've

 6     marked Majdanska Street on the photo.

 7             We don't need to pull it up again; right?

 8             Without pulling this photo, D808, would you agree with me that in

 9     the industrial zone, there were no residential areas?

10        A.   Do you mean on Majdanska Street?

11        Q.   No, I mean that part of the city where the industrial area is.

12        A.   In the industrial park, most of the installations there are

13     industrial plants, and there are perhaps a few residential buildings.

14     There are some, but not very many.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 65 ter

16     09774, and that should not be broadcast.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now, did you draft the sketch for this incident as well?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Who took the measurements?

21        A.   I did.

22        Q.   What did you use for your measurements?

23        A.   Well, the measuring band.

24        Q.   What kind of ground did this projectile land on?

25        A.   This projectile landed on a soft surface, soil, the ground along

Page 8360

 1     the street.  There is a slight slope there, and the projectile struck the

 2     ground, making a furrow, a deep furrow, a long cylinder in the ground.

 3        Q.   And what was the ground; asphalt or soil?

 4        A.   It was soil.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Could we now have 1D2630.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is this a sketch that you drew?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   Did you -- the indication for north here, is it correct or should

11     it be slightly altered?  More specifically, what is the orientation of

12     the transformer station there?

13        A.   Well, we could -- it should be corrected a bit.

14        Q.   Could you do it on this sketch, please?  Could you indicate that?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   What angle of deviation is that?

17        A.   15 to 20 degrees.

18        Q.   Sold, but let's continue.  It could be more, actually.

19             Are you able to indicate on this sketch the incoming trajectory

20     of the projectile?

21        A.   It's indicated by a broken line here marked with the number 8.

22     That is the incoming trajectory of the projectile.

23        Q.   Is that the direction or orientation?  Where did the projectile

24     come from?

25        A.   The projectile came from the direction of the south-east.

Page 8361

 1        Q.   How did you determine this direction?

 2        A.   I determined the direction, just like in the previous case, on

 3     the basis of the place of impact of the projectile, because the place of

 4     impact of the projectile was of a cylindrical shape, five metres long and

 5     two metres wide.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this diagram, please,

 7     with the corrected direction of the north, please?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is a signature and a date

10     necessary?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

13             JUDGE KWON:  That will be Exhibit D813; correct?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 09774, and

15     can we have page 2 of that document, please.  There is a legend for your

16     diagram there.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P1812, under

18     seal.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the legend for the

20     diagram.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you agree that only places are indicated, or the locations

23     where the projectiles were found, or fragments of projectiles, but there

24     are no markings indicating the characteristic points of craters?

25        A.   No, absolutely not, because you can clearly see all the

Page 8362

 1     dimensions, all the sides of the triangles that I drew that have to do

 2     with this particular incident.  All the locations marked in the legend as

 3     1, 2, 3, 4 and so forth, indicate -- are marked by kathetes of the

 4     triangle, and they point to the transformer station.

 5        Q.   What is the significance of the -- what are the referent points

 6     of the crater?  Where is the shorter and the longer axes of the crater?

 7        A.   They are indicated on the sketch.  On the sketch, on the diagram,

 8     you have the beginning point of the crater and the end point of the

 9     crater.  You also have the dimensions marked using triangles and kathetes

10     in relation to the transformer station.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the diagram again,

12     because then you can see that this is not there.  D812.

13             JUDGE KWON:  13 or 12?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 813, yes, 813.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Where is the crater here, Witness, sir?

17        A.   Well, let me just wait.  Can we zoom in on the diagram, please?

18        Q.   But then we'll lose the legend.  Where are the elements

19     indicating the position of the crater?

20        A.   The point marked with the number 1 is where we have two kathetes.

21     One kathete is 2.250 centimetres long and the second one is 1.600

22     centimetres.  So we have these two kathetes indicate -- marking the

23     location marked with the number 1.  That is the point of impact of the

24     projectile.

25        Q.   And what are the kathetes drawn in relation to?

Page 8363

 1        A.   They are drawn in relation to the transformer station.  That is

 2     the reference point.

 3        Q.   What is it in relation to?  This number 2, what is that in

 4     relation to, this "640"?

 5        A.   That is the angle of the transformer station, and this is where I

 6     indicated the letters "S.T." which means the fixed point.  That's where I

 7     was standing when I began to draw this sketch.

 8        Q.   And this is the shape of the crater, that is five metres long and

 9     two metres broad?  It's not professionally drawn, is it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In relation to this north now, what would you add to this

12     diagram?

13        A.   Nothing.

14        Q.   Would you change anything in relation to the direction?

15        A.   No.  The incoming trajectory I established in relation to the

16     crater.  That was the reference point.

17        Q.   You said here that you found some rocket fuel.  How do you

18     explain that?

19        A.   No, no.  I think I mentioned a part of the rocket engine with a

20     part of the rocket fuel container.

21        Q.   Oh, all right.  The fuel was not found?

22        A.   During the flight of the projectile, the fuel is spent.  When the

23     fuel is spent, the projectile falls in free-fall.  That's how it works.

24        Q.   Did you find any characteristic elements of the projectile, such

25     as the jets, the fins, the engine chambers, and so on?

Page 8364

 1        A.   I think, yes, that we did find some.  We need to look at the list

 2     of the remains or the traces.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the document

 4     underneath this one.  It's part of this document also.  P1812, please,

 5     page 2.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Witness, while we're waiting:  You did conduct criminal

 8     investigations somewhat differently in peacetime; is that right?

 9        A.   Yeah, I don't know what you mean.

10        Q.   Would investigations like this be acceptable in peacetime?  Would

11     they have been accepted?

12        A.   In peacetime --

13             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

15        Q.   All right.  Now, let's see what you found here.  Did you find any

16     characteristic remains of the projectile; fins, parts of the rocket's

17     engine, engine chambers, casings?

18        A.   1, place of impact of the projectile, the connective metal of the

19     projectile.  Number 2, part of the container with rocket fuel.  3,

20     shrapnel.  Then 6, bigger pieces of shrapnel.  That's that.

21        Q.   Is this something that is specific?  On the basis of these

22     fragments, are you able to tell what the object is?

23        A.   I never had the job of saying what it was.  All I needed to do

24     was to assume what it was, and then the forensic experts, ballistics

25     experts, on the basis of collected fragments and shrapnel, remains of the

Page 8365

 1     projectile, would give their opinion.  And their opinion was official.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  To whom did you give your part of the report, then,

 3     and was that included in the final report?  Did they use your report when

 4     drafting the final report?

 5        A.   I don't know whether they used my report in order to draft the

 6     final report.  I handed my report to my chief, the chief of the Criminal

 7     Investigations Unit.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we look at page 2 of 09775, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Well, here, do you agree that the crater was described

12     differently than the description that you gave?  We're looking at the

13     last paragraph:  Length, five metres.  Width, 1.5 metres.  Depth, 1.5

14     metres along the length of it.  It was facing towards the south, and we

15     saw from your diagram that that wasn't quite so.

16        A.   The length is the same here.  My width is two metres, and his is

17     1.5, and that is the difference.  As for the orientation, the direction

18     from which the projectile came, this is an opinion of the person who

19     wrote this report.  And I wrote my report, and I stand by what I put in

20     my report.

21        Q.   And is the depth different?

22        A.   I don't know exactly what my depth was.

23        Q.   You said it was two metres.

24        A.   Yes, then it is different.

25        Q.   What I'm particularly interested in is:  How come, then, that the

Page 8366

 1     direction from which the projectile came is different?

 2        A.   I cannot give you an answer to that.  The gentleman who wrote

 3     this report wrote it on the basis of information of his own, and I wrote

 4     as best as I could, I wrote my report.

 5        Q.   If we're talking about a modified air-bomb, how many rocket

 6     engines would you expect to find there?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I couldn't answer exactly how many rocket engines

 8     would be there.  However, this is not relevant, because in order for us

 9     to think that it was a modified air-bomb, we were more or less sure

10     there, and it was easy to tell that apart from a mortar shell of 120

11     millimetres, because the modified air-bomb created a crater that was

12     much, much bigger than the one a mortar shell of 120 millimetres would

13     create.  The difference is enormous, and it's very obvious to anyone

14     who's looking.

15        Q.   If you didn't find more than one rocket engine, why didn't you

16     think or at least investigate the possibility that it could be a rocket

17     from a multi-barrel rocket-launcher?

18        A.   One rocket from a multiple rocket-launcher would not be able to

19     create a crater of this size.

20        Q.   It has to be an air-bomb, then.  How many engines, at a minimum,

21     are necessary to propel an air-bomb?

22        A.   I don't know how many engines an air-bomb would have.  We assume

23     that you would need three or four, five, but we didn't produce these

24     engines.  I didn't work on the modification and perfecting of that

25     particular weapon, so I wasn't familiar with it.

Page 8367

 1        Q.   All right, thank you.  In your report, you said that the

 2     projectile came from the direction of Paljevo; is that correct?  Paljevo

 3     or Prljevo?

 4        A.   Paljevo, Paljevo, yes, more or less.  I said south-east.  That's

 5     important.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the direction of the

 7     south-east.  All right.

 8             Can we now have 1D02631.  1D02631.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   If you say "Paljevo," then you also established or decided on the

11     distance, in a way; is that correct?

12             Has this document been tendered?  If not, I would like this part

13     of the report -- actually, the report to be admitted.  6 -- 9775.  65 ter

14     09775.  Has it been tendered before, has it been admitted?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It's been admitted as Exhibit D810, under seal,

16     Your Honours.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Witness, sir, do you see Majdanska Street here?  It's in a kind

19     of clamp shape.  Do you see that on this intersection?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Can you put a dot?  You see the Municipality building there and

22     all those buildings, the TV buildings.  Can you indicate where those

23     buildings are?  The transformer station?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  And can you now mark the direction from

Page 8368

 1     where that came from Paljevo Brdo?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And can you please mark this now?  It's not necessary

 4     to put any numbers.  Well, actually, you can put the number 1 as the

 5     point of impact and number 2 as the incoming trajectory.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Can we date and the witness code so that it can be admitted?

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D814, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 09775, page 2, so

12     that we can see what the report says.  This is not to be broadcast.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   In the last paragraph:  "The crater ...," with its length, do you

15     see that?

16             "The crater is facing south, which indicates that the rocket was

17     fired from the same spot as the one before:  A number of parts of a VBR

18     rocket were found in and around the crater, as well as shrapnel and parts

19     of an aerial bomb.  They were photographed and sent ..."

20             And so on and so forth.

21             Where are the photographs of those parts which would indicate

22     that this was an air-bomb and not a VBR rocket?

23        A.   All the photographs that I took, I put as part of the photo

24     documentation, so the entire photographed evidence pertaining to the case

25     would also include those photographs that I took.

Page 8369

 1        Q.   So it is uncontested that this is orientated towards the south,

 2     and it says that the source of fire is the same as in the previous one;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Well, yes, but the report -- that report is the report of the

 5     gentleman who wrote it, and not mine.

 6        Q.   But is this an overall report compiled by the investigative team?

 7        A.   No, no, this was a report that was drafted by that gentleman, and

 8     we were all supposed to draft a report together.  However, he did it --

 9     he did his own report and I did my own.

10        Q.   And where is your report?  Is it reflected in this one?

11        A.   Well, the procedure was as follows:  I would forward my report to

12     my superior, to my chief, and then they would forward it to the

13     prosecution.  And all those reports sent by various individuals who took

14     part in the on-site investigations would then be put in a file and

15     forwarded to the prosecutor.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we see D814 one more time just briefly in order to determine

18     the orientation.  D814.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, do you agree that the direction that you indicated here

21     is more easterly than southerly?  It is some 20 degrees bearing east, so

22     that it's closer -- actually, it's more easterly than southerly?

23        A.   Well, no, this is really south-easterly.

24        Q.   Thank you.  We can't find anywhere in the report or in the photo

25     file that there were any fragments of an air-bomb found.  We only see

Page 8370

 1     that there were some fragments of a VBR recovered; correct?

 2        A.   Well, I don't have the photo file before me right now, so I can't

 3     really answer that question accurately.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on to the next one.

 5        A.   Could we have a brief break, please?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I was about to suggest it.

 7             We'll have a break for 10 minutes.  We'll resume at 2.00.

 8                           --- Break taken at 1.53 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 2.08 p.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Can I remind you now about the incident in Hrasnica that we

13     talked about during the examination-in-chief.  Were you a part of the

14     team investigating that, and what did you do there?

15        A.   Yes, I was a part of that investigation of the Hrasnica incident.

16        Q.   Thank you.  How soon after the incident did you go on site?

17        A.   Well, we went out to the incident site in the afternoon hours,

18     around 2.00 or 3.00 p.m., I think, because I know that I had come from

19     down-town, from Sarajevo, and I had to pass through Dobrinja, and then

20     the tunnel through Butmir all the way to Hrasnica.  So it was quite a

21     trip to get to the site, the incident site.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we now have 65 ter, please, 13565.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this Exhibit P1792.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8371

 1        Q.   You said in the examination-in-chief that this area was an

 2     exclusively residential area where only private homes, civilians and

 3     residential buildings were.  You said that; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have the document before us?

 6     Yes.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Now, could you please mark here Alekse Santica Street?  I think

 9     the correct name is Izeta Aranica, but you can see the Alekse Santica

10     Street.  Can you indicate it?

11        A.   Yes [marks].

12        Q.   Would you now please indicate where the Hrasnica cultural and

13     sports centre was, the Famos playground?

14        A.   Well, this building here is the cultural and sports centre in

15     Hrasnica [marks].

16        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please mark it with the number 1.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   And now show us where the post office was.  Can you see the post

19     office building?  It's on Halid-bega Hrasnice.

20             Street.

21        A.   Well, I don't know exactly where the post office building is.

22        Q.   Very well.  Can you see, across from this, the school building?

23        A.   Yes, I can see that.

24        Q.   Would you please mark it, put a circle around it, and put the

25     number 2 there.

Page 8372

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Did this used to be Alekse Santica School, and now it's the

 3     second elementary school in Hrasnica?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Would you now please date this document, and also

 6     your pseudonym.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Now, according to what you know, could you indicate the direction

 9     from which this projectile came, the one that you investigated?

10        A.   Yes, I can [marks].

11        Q.   And that is exactly across from the school building; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now please

14     have --

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Or, rather, would you please date this and put your pseudonym.

17        A.   [Marks]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit D815.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we now have 65 ter 09758, and then page 10.  We don't need

21     the first page.  The witness will recognise the 10th page as well.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   According to you, where was -- according to your findings, where

24     did this projectile explode?

25        A.   Well, this projectile exploded on the house of Ferhatovic, Haso.

Page 8373

 1     It struck the house and then exploded.

 2        Q.   It exploded outside the house; correct?

 3        A.   No, it struck the house, itself, and detonated inside the house.

 4        Q.   What would the remainder of the house look like if the explosion

 5     was inside the house?  Wouldn't parts of the house be scattered all over

 6     Hrasnica?

 7        A.   Well, they were.  You're correct.

 8        Q.   But can't you see that the structure of this house actually piled

 9     down, as it were?  It wasn't scattered around; it remained within the

10     perimeters of the house.

11        A.   Well, no.  We found the traces inside the house.  As for the

12     house, itself, it had two storeys, and it simply collapsed.  It slumped

13     down like a pile of cards.

14        Q.   Very well.  So on impact, on the roof of the house, the bomb

15     detonated?

16        A.   Well, I don't know exactly where it detonated, but we found most

17     of the trace evidence inside the house.

18        Q.   Is this photograph part of a P exhibit?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR: [Previous translation continues] ... 815, under

21     seal.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 32 of this

23     document, please.  This is Incident 10 from the G list, G schedule.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What happened to this roof?

Page 8374

 1        A.   Well, you can clearly see that all the tiles were blown away all

 2     over Hrasnica, and only a small number of tiles remained on the roof.

 3             Now, if you can see this garage next to the house, adjacent to

 4     the house, the metal structure, it was dented and it looked like a carton

 5     of milk if you were to squeeze it, and then it would be thinner at one

 6     end and broader at the other end.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  But do you agree with me that on this roof, the

 8     effect of the projectile explosion was like some kind of metal rain?  It

 9     was outside of this structure?

10        A.   Well, yes.  In fact, this was the -- these were the effects of

11     the blast wave when this explosive -- when this projectile exploded.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned in your findings the skyscraper in

13     the background.  Why did you do that?  Was it because you wanted to show

14     that this was a residential area?

15        A.   Yes, and also for better orientation in -- spatial orientation.

16        Q.   Thank you.  How far is this high-rise from the incident site or

17     point of impact?

18        A.   Several hundred metres.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we now see 65 ter 0 -- or, rather, this same document, but

21     page 34, 3-4.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   What we see in the background, is that the Alekse Santica School

24     building?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 8375

 1        Q.   How far is that building from the point of impact?

 2        A.   Well, it is pretty close.  It's some 100 to 150 metres; couldn't

 3     be more.

 4        Q.   Could you please indicate the school building on the photo by

 5     placing an arrow pointing at it?

 6        A.   Well, would you like me to circle it?

 7        Q.   Very well.  Please do so.

 8        A.   [Marks] These are the windows of the Alekse Santica elementary

 9     School.

10        Q.   Our information indicates that it's 30 to 50 metres away from the

11     place of the incident.  Is that something that corresponds with your

12     information?

13        A.   I think the distance is at least 100 metres.  I don't know

14     exactly, but it's not 30 metres.

15        Q.   Can we have your initials and the date.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we tender this because it's

18     been marked again?  816; is that right?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D2645 now, please.

21     There is no signature, so I think that it doesn't have to be --

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Is this a diagram of that incident?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is the incoming trajectory of the projectile marked with the

Page 8376

 1     number 11?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this document been admitted?

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I believe the sketch is in evidence already,

 5     Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  This is a part of -- must be a part of some report,

 7     then.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We put together two parts of the

 9     diagram for the sake of completeness, and we would like to ask the

10     witness if that is his diagram.  I wanted to ask the witness if this was

11     put together correctly.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it was.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last two

14     questions and answers by the accused and the witness.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give a separate number for this.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D817, Your Honours.  It's also part of

17     65 ter -- P1794, under seal.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we had to put it together in

19     order to see the entire image.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is the north here good?

22        A.   Well, yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we look at 1D2641, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8377

 1        Q.   Can you look at this picture, and do you agree that this -- the

 2     diagram applied to this Google map is well placed, in terms of "11," and

 3     this "2" is regularly parallel in relation to the projectile?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Do you agree that a point here indicates the point of impact

 6     along the line marked with the number 2?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Does line number 2 cross precisely over the Alekse Santica

 9     School?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Would you now change that estimate of yours about the distance of

12     the school from the place?  For example, this gym is not even 50 metres

13     away; would you agree?

14        A.   I think that it's actually 100 metres here.

15        Q.   All right.  The street is five to six metres wide and so on?

16        A.   Well, the green area, the house, the yard -- I think it's the

17     gym.

18        Q.   Would you agree here that goes towards the place of the incident?

19        A.   Yes, probably.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know -- can we tender this document, please?

21             JUDGE KWON:  With the same caveat, we'll admit it as

22     Exhibit D818.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you know what the Alekse Santica School was used for during

25     the war?

Page 8378

 1        A.   No, I don't know that.

 2        Q.   Are you aware that the 104th Brigade of the Army of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina acted in Hrasnica with 4.500 men, and that all the facilities

 4     were being used for that brigade?  Are you aware of that?

 5        A.   No, I'm not.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We still have enough time to just

 7     take a glance at 2D2642 [as interpreted].  I'm not going to press you on

 8     that.  Others will deal with that.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   But do you agree that in such a small area, 4.500 soldiers would

11     make the area pretty dense?

12        A.   I don't know what to answer you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's go to the video now.  Let's

14     look at 1D2647, please.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, just before we go on, I do have a

16     very short bit of re-examination to do which will take about two minutes.

17             Secondly, I think we're about to see videos of ABiH training

18     exercises, or something along those lines, which I submit this witness is

19     not the right witness to comment on these videos.  Mr. Karadzic can find

20     another method to have them admitted, if that's his desire.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to play it

23     briefly just to see what that thing looks like, and it's a good thing for

24     the witness to see.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8379

 1        Q.   Do you see Igman and Hrasnica?  Do you agree that this is

 2     Hrasnica?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just could you wait.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I take it Mr. Gaynor's observation is correct, but

 7     the Chamber is wondering how the witness can help you in that regard,

 8     given his answer given to you already.

 9             Given the time, so could you conclude your cross-examination,

10     Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right, very well.

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you agree that in all these investigations, there

13     was no work done to establish the distance, and the distance could not

14     have been established either?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             I would like to conclude the cross-examination with this.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Okay, Mr. Karadzic.

19             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Could I, first of all, ask that 65 ter 09770 be brought up,

22     please.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, Mr. Karadzic asked you earlier on about the

25     Majdanska Street incident on the 24th of May, 1995.  Mr. Karadzic said to

Page 8380

 1     you:

 2             "We can't find anywhere in the report or in the photo file that

 3     there were any fragments of an air-bomb found.  We can only see that

 4     there were some fragments of a VBR recovered; correct?"

 5             And your reply was that:

 6             "I don't have the photo file before me right now, so I can't

 7     really answer that question accurately."

 8             Now, that ends that extract.

 9             Could you just look at the first picture.

10             If we could zoom in on the first picture.

11             And the words under the first picture in front of you, that's a

12     reference -- could you confirm that this is the first photograph in a

13     photo file relating to the incident at Majdanska Street on the 24th of

14     May, 1995?

15        A.   Yes, I can confirm that.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we now go to the fourth page of this document,

17     please.

18        Q.   Could you describe what is marked with the figure "1" in that

19     photograph?

20        A.   The number "1" on this photograph, including the scale ruler

21     which can be seen, indicates the connecting tin that was found in the

22     crater that was created by this explosive device.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we see the next page, please.

24        Q.   Could we focus on the top photograph, please, and could you tell

25     the Court what the numbers "2" and "3" refer to.

Page 8381

 1        A.   The number "2" marks the container with the rocket fuel, and

 2     number "3" marks the shrapnel.  However, at the end of the container, on

 3     the right-hand side of the photograph, you can see that it's a rocket

 4     engine.  And as you're looking to the right, that's where the rocket

 5     engine is.  And there, where the number "2" is, that is where the

 6     container with the rocket fuel is located.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honours, photographs 15 and 16 are missing from

 8     this file, but the rest of the file contains photographs relating to this

 9     incident.  I don't propose to go through any more of them.  Your Honours

10     can inspect them at the appropriate moment.

11             I'd like to tender that in evidence.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1817, Your Honours.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  No further re-examination.  Thank you,

15     Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, that concludes your evidence.  On

17     behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal, I'd like to thank you for your

18     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.  Have a safe

19     journey back home.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We need to draw the curtains so that the witness can

22     excuse himself.

23             Mr. Karadzic, did you want to say something?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just said that the Defence also

25     wishes to thank the witness.

Page 8382

 1             JUDGE KWON:  You may go now.  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Can you go back -- go into private session briefly.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Is there anything further to be raised?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             If I could make an oral application that our expert, Dr. Subotic,

22     be allowed to be present for the testimony of KDZ194, who will be

23     testifying this week, who is a police officer, as well as Witnesses Besic

24     and Dozo [phoen], who are also police officers, as well as Mr. Konings,

25     who did a crater examination, and the expert, Berko Zecevic.  We would

Page 8383

 1     ask that her presence be granted for those additional witnesses, and that

 2     should conclude all of the witnesses that the Prosecution has notified us

 3     of for which we need the assistance of an expert.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Can we hear the response from the Prosecution on

 6     this point.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8             In light of the nature of their evidence or parts of their

 9     evidence, we don't object to the request.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

11             The request is granted.

12             We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.  Let me check.  Yes, 9.00 in the

13     morning.

14             We'll rise.

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.36 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

17                           October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.