Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8677

 1                           Monday, 1 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Brennskag.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.  I hope your biorhythm

10     is okay on Monday morning.

11             Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             Dr. Karadzic would like to address you this morning concerning

14     our schedule for tomorrow.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.

17             I'd like to say that I don't have a single day off, because I'm

18     spending all my time in preparation.  I don't have any time for strolling

19     outdoors or for sports activity.  But that aside, I don't have sufficient

20     time for preparations, themselves.  Therefore, I asked Mr. Robinson to

21     send a letter in which we would request for a day off tomorrow to give me

22     some respite and to allow me to prepare for the next witness.  Let's

23     disregard my need for sports activities and rest, but I must say that I'm

24     not ready to continue at this pace without any breaks.  I'm afraid that I

25     didn't say that I'm not ready to continue, I just said that I don't have

Page 8678

 1     any breaks or any respite.

 2             Of course, I am interested in having this finalised as soon as

 3     possible so that I can go home.  I want these proceedings to finish

 4     quickly, but this will result in a bad Defence case, and, secondly, this

 5     can jeopardise my health condition.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  To be sure, could you kindly remind me, Mr. Tieger,

 7     of the order of witnesses after this.  I take it the first witness would

 8     be Ms. Mujanovic, and the next one will be Dr. Hajir?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Both of them are supposed to be heard via videolink?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  And the videolink installation has been prepared for

13     today and tomorrow?

14             MR. TIEGER:  Correct.  And then we have -- in anticipation of

15     concluding the videolink testimony, or at least approaching a conclusion

16     of the videolink testimony, we have the testimony of KDZ323 following.

17             JUDGE KWON:  323.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Followed by KDZ244, and then 485.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Given that we are sitting for an extended time

20     today, I propose to adjourn today or tomorrow when we will have finished

21     those two witnesses that are to be heard via videolink.  In case we are

22     going to finish early tomorrow morning, we'll see to it that Mr. Karadzic

23     can go back to Scheveningen as early as possible, but I think we may be

24     able to finish those two witnesses this afternoon.  We'll see.

25             Mr. Tieger.

Page 8679

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'd like to just raise with the Court

 2     the possible knock-on effect with respect to this week's schedule, and

 3     concluding one witness in particular.  And if I might go into private

 4     session for a moment to address that.  You're right, that's -- perhaps

 5     I can address it --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let us finish this --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine, I understand, but I think it's

 8     important to raise that issue.  [Overlapping speakers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  -- I'll hear from you.

10             Sorry for the inconvenience, Mr. Brennskag.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.

12                           WITNESS:  PER ANTON BRENNSKAG [Resumed]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             I think that after we have finished with the videolink witnesses,

15     I accept your proposal.  It is feasible.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Good morning, sir.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   On Friday, we talked about what you knew about the offensive of

21     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in July.  You said that there was -- that

22     you didn't know of any such offensive; is that correct?

23        A.   At that time in June/July 1995, the situation for the UN

24     observers were very difficult.  UN observers on the BSA side were

25     detained by the BSA, and we, who were trying to do our job inside

Page 8680

 1     Sarajevo, had very much limitations.  At that time, I didn't know any

 2     exact movements of any of the factions.

 3             In my notes that I think I was writing in 2001, I tried to find

 4     out what had happened, and then I collected some information.  But at

 5     that time in 1995, I didn't know any exact movements of any troops.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a minute, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             I should have noted that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 8     Judge Lattanzi will not be with us during the morning today.  She'll be

 9     joining us in the afternoon.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   This amalgamated statement of yours was updated on the 13th and

12     14th of October, 2010; is that correct?

13        A.   The amalgamated statement, yes, it's correct.

14        Q.   Can you please focus on paragraph 31.  Why didn't you mention

15     this paragraph, that there was a major Muslim Army offensive -- or,

16     rather, Army of B and H, in Bosnia -- in Sarajevo and in Bosnia, as a

17     whole:

18             [In English] "In June 1995 it was a very hectic time.  There

19     could be up to 150 impacts coming into Sarajevo during a 24-hour period."

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

21             Mr. Brennskag, would you like to see your statement?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was just about to give you -- the

23     exhibit number is P1851.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I believe the witness has already answered

Page 8681

 1     why there was no reference to Muslim or BH offensives.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but this question can be viewed from a somewhat

 3     different perspective.  But do you, by any chance, have a hard copy of

 4     his statement?

 5             Now we have it.  The previous page, para 31.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   My question was:  If you didn't know then and if you learned

 8     about that later, why didn't you, in October of this year, mention that

 9     there was a major offensive?  Why I'm asking you this:  Your words are

10     being taken very seriously here, but you said:

11             [In English] "But mostly it could be up to 150.  These 150 rounds

12     were hitting both civilians and military targets."

13             [Interpretation] And so on and so forth.

14             Can you see this paragraph, and don't you think that it would

15     only be fair and truthful if you had mentioned here that a major

16     offensive had been launched by the Muslim side?

17        A.   As I said for some minutes ago, this was second-hand information

18     that I was collecting a long time after the Balkan war, around 2001.

19        Q.   But this paragraph 31 is full of assertions that can serve as a

20     basis for a guilty verdict.  You say that they were targeting

21     non-military targets, and then you go on to say that after you and your

22     service had investigated these matters, you concluded that those were

23     purely civilian targets that were wounded or died.  Do you believe that

24     things changed if you put it into the context of a major Muslim offensive

25     in which not 120, but 2.000 or 3.000 shells were fired from the Muslim

Page 8682

 1     side?

 2        A.   I have stated that, as far as I remember, it could be around 150

 3     rounds hitting both civilian and military targets at that time, but some

 4     of them, what we were observing at this time, were purely landing or

 5     impacting in civilian areas.  What -- why I conclude on that is about the

 6     investigation on the impact.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Brennskag, judging by this paragraph only, an

 8     image is created of the town being terrorised, of civilian targets being

 9     hit, and a huge number of shells being fired at Sarajevo.  All of that

10     was the other around.  You didn't know that at the time, but you knew

11     that in 2002.  Why didn't you include, in your 2010 statement, the

12     information that all of that took place as part of the most important

13     major offensive launched by the Muslim Army?

14        A.   By all respect, I testify what I was observing in June/July 1995.

15     I'm sorry that we couldn't observe impacts from firing out of BiH side,

16     and we did not have any observers on the BSA side; they were detained by

17     BSA.

18        Q.   Am I to take it, then, that your testimony and your knowledge are

19     limited and fragmented?

20        A.   My knowledge is what I have stated in my testimony.  And if it's

21     fragmented, I don't think, for myself, it is.

22        Q.   Are you then trying to say that you have a comprehensive

23     knowledge and that you're telling the whole truth with relation to the

24     events that you observed in your capacity of an observer?

25        A.   As a UN observer, I was just a small part of a big UN operation

Page 8683

 1     that tried to put together what was happening during that time.  I was

 2     just a small part.

 3        Q.   But then we have to conclude that what you are telling us here is

 4     only a shred of truth; is that correct?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  He answered the question.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, you say that at that time, you didn't know that

 8     there was an offensive going on and that you didn't know how many shells

 9     fell on each side; is that correct?

10        A.   I said that I didn't know -- I hadn't any exact information about

11     offensives going on, and, in fact, my job was not depending on this

12     information.  I only reported what I saw when I was on the job, the

13     impacts inside Sarajevo.

14        Q.   Did you know - or perhaps you didn't know - that the Muslim Army

15     had launched a major offensive in order to make a breakthrough from

16     Sarajevo?  Did you know about that or didn't you?

17        A.   At that time, I didn't know.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at your notes, page 10.

19             In the meantime, can we look at 65 ter 14332.

20             While we're waiting for this document:  Sir, is it correct that

21     you conveyed your information and your observation to your command, and

22     that it was at your command where comprehensive reports were being

23     compiled?

24        A.   I'll answer the last question.  It's correct that my information

25     and reports were delivered or given to the UN Observer HQ in Sarajevo or

Page 8684

 1     normally through my team leader.

 2        Q.   So the one who compiled this comprehensive information in the

 3     UNMO service were doing so based on second-hand information, that is to

 4     say, the information that you provided?

 5        A.   The UNMO -- UN -- UNMO HQ in Sarajevo, they obtained their

 6     information through the UNMO teams that were operating, and at that time

 7     they were just operating on the BiH side.

 8        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  So those at the HQ did not need to have

 9     direct knowledge of an eye-witness, but they, rather, used information

10     received from teams; is that correct?

11        A.   The UNMO teams were the UN Observer HQ's eyes and ears during

12     that time, and the reports about events were given through the UN teams,

13     either written in reports or orally.

14        Q.   Thank you.  When you were not at your observation post and you

15     observed something, would you send a report on that as well?

16        A.   That would be done through the team leader, normally, or

17     sometimes also when we were patrolling, we went directly to the UNMO HQ

18     in Sarajevo, PTT building, and reported orally.

19        Q.   Can you please answer with a yes or no.  So in addition to

20     observation posts, you carry out your duties by patrolling; is that

21     correct?

22        A.   During my time when I was not assigned to the OP, we had some

23     patrolling, but it was very limited because we were put restrictions on

24     us from the ABiH.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can I ask you to please look at the last paragraph,

Page 8685

 1     which starts "UNMO Sarajevo ..."  Do you agree that your observers did

 2     not have full insight and that there were unconfirmed reports to the

 3     effect that the BH Army made some territorial advances on the 16th of

 4     June?  The last paragraph.

 5        A.   I have read the last paragraph.  Again, this is from my notes in

 6     2001, and this is what is written there.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

 8             Can the witness be shown the full document, please?  Can we zoom

 9     out so the witness can see the full document?

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay, I'm sorry.  Could I then see the last

11     paragraph again?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Sorry, just one thing.  Okay, look at the paragraph which is

14     last --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Having read the title of this document, do you like

16     to correct your statement, then?

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

18             This is from -- a report from UNMO HQ.  Could I have the whole

19     document again, please.  Daily sitrep, yes, and I have no more

20     information about this sitrep than what is written.

21             JUDGE KWON:  From this document, one can gather that the "UNMO

22     Sarajevo" was about the situation, in particular the Muslim offensive,

23     although they didn't know the result of that offensive in detail.  Was

24     such kind of information not conveyed to UNMO teams in the field by those

25     UNMO Sarajevo headquarter?  I'm referring to the ABiH operation.

Page 8686

 1             THE WITNESS:  It was very limited about the information we got

 2     from the UNMO HQ.  Sometimes maybe the team leaders got some information

 3     from the HQ, and sometimes we didn't get this information further.  I

 4     don't recall that this information from this daily sitrep, that I got it

 5     from the UNMO HQ or from my team leader.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   If I understood you correctly, who informed whom?  Were you

 9     reporting to the HQ or was the HQ reporting to you?

10        A.   Normally, the observation teams reported to the UNMO HQ inside

11     Sarajevo.  Information -- generally, information to us were received

12     through, normally, our team leader from UNMO HQ.

13        Q.   You were OP 4; is that correct?

14        A.   I was in OP 4 several times, yes.  Normally, 24 hours per time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Why did you say that that observation post was called

16     Sierra Victor 2?

17        A.   The UNMO HQ or the UNMO Sarajevo had abbreviations for the OPs,

18     and as far as I remember, it should be "Sierra Whiskey 2," because

19     I think, or remember that the "Sierra" stands for "Sarajevo," and

20     "Whiskey" stands for "West," and "2," "Number 2."

21        Q.   But Mr. Brennskag, "Sierra" were the names of check-points, not

22     observation points; is that correct?

23        A.   No.  UNMO HQ or UNMO Sarajevo did never have any check-points.

24     We had observation posts.

25        Q.   Thank you.  We will see how that is marked.

Page 8687

 1             Can we look at page 11 of this document, please, so that we can

 2     see what OP 4 knew and reported back.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             It was last week, Mr. Brennskag - it's at page 8666, line 4 to

 5     6 - and to the question:

 6             "What were your observation posts known as," you did answer:

 7             "I can only remember exactly my own observation post, and this

 8     was on the hills of Vitkovac, and as far as I remember, it was called

 9     Sierra Victor 2."

10             Was it a mistake?

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I think it was Sierra Whiskey 2.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   May I ask you to look at what was reported from that station at

15     1447.  That the Bosnian side fired; is that correct?  "4" -- I don't know

16     the abbreviation.  Is that correct?  This is the fourth line from the

17     top.

18        A.   I see the line.  At the time, "1447 Bravo" means local time.  It

19     means OP 4, my OP, but I have to state that I don't know if I was at the

20     OP 4 at that time.  And it explains that the four explosions landing in

21     Stup area, it's a map grid, Bravo Papa 8457.  It means that it's not more

22     accurate than 1 K square fired from.  They don't state, and that's why

23     this is unknown and "Fired BiH."

24        Q.   Thank you.  In order to move faster, allow me to present this

25     page, and you can follow.

Page 8688

 1             So at 1450, somebody fired at the Spicasta Stijena, and then at

 2     1500 hours -- actually, at 1650, there was a strike.  At 1500 -- at 1650,

 3     there was a strike.  At 15, somebody fired at Hrasno, and then so on and

 4     so forth, all the way up to 1510 hours, when the Army of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina fired again, and so on and so forth.  Is that correct?  Is

 6     this a minute-by-minute report, and is this a battle with artillery fire

 7     being exchanged?

 8        A.   As I tried to explain, I don't think I was at the OP at this

 9     time.  I think this is a report from the 16th of June.  Is that correct?

10        Q.   I think that this is a report dated the 17th, covering the 16th

11     of July [as interpreted].  But, Mr. Brennskag, this is the usual report

12     by your Military Observers service; is that correct?

13        A.   This is a daily report, yes, from UNMO HQ in Sarajevo.

14        Q.   And it is reporting on what it received from OP 4 and so on and

15     so forth, OP 1 and so on and so forth.  And now, Mr. Brennskag, do you

16     see that your service was completely aware of a major offensive and

17     exchange of fire?  If you look at 1620, 1617, and so on -- can we look at

18     the next page, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before we move on:  Mr. Brennskag, the last column

20     represents, I take it, remarks.  There, we see "Fired BiH" or "Fired

21     BSA."  What does it mean?  Does it mean BiH was fired or it is BiH that

22     fired?

23             THE WITNESS:  The last column is stating who was firing.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,

Page 8689

 1     please.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   We can see that we've got the "BiH outgoing," "BSA fired," "BiH

 4     outgoing."  From minute to minute, the exchange of fire is being

 5     recorded; is that correct?

 6        A.   This is the report that came from -- that was received from the

 7     OPs, yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we look at the next page, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you see, in the first paragraph, "Other Significant/Relevant

12     Information," that the B and H Army took your observation post at

13     Mojmilo, which was held by the Russians; is that correct?

14        A.   I read what's in the report.  I don't think this is a UN

15     observer -- a UN observation post.  It's stated that it's held by the

16     Russians, yes.

17        Q.   Were the Russians part of the United Nations or were they there

18     as part of the Russian Army?  "UN OP," that's what it says on the first

19     line.

20        A.   Yes, but as it's stated that it was held by the Russians, UN

21     Russians were there as UNPROFOR or UNP, and they had their own

22     observation posts.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see in the next paragraph, the first sentence:

24             "Sector OPS Sarajevo --"

25             [In English] "... believe the ABiH have made territorial gains in

Page 8690

 1     the area ..."

 2             [Interpretation] Is it possible to capture territory by means of

 3     defensive tactics or by means of an offensive?

 4        A.   It's stated that the BiH, they took the OP, and that must have

 5     been done by an attack or a movement.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 7             The whole document is of interest and it's instructive and I

 8     would like to tender it.  I cannot spend any more time with you on the

 9     document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D850, Your Honours.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Once again, I must ask you:  Were the United Nations aware of the

14     major offensive that the Muslim Army launched on the 15th of July?

15        A.   I believe that United Nations troops or organisation knew about

16     the offensive, yes, but I didn't know then.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Again, this was a useless question.  The witness

18     said that he didn't know at the time.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then look at 65 ter 8186,

20     please.  This is, again, a daily sitrep of your UNMO service.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, you are talking about things in a pretty general

23     way.  You're not talking about things that you, yourself, saw with your

24     own eyes, but about broader events, so let's see what your service was

25     aware of.  Let's look at all the things that your service was aware of.

Page 8691

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This has been admitted as Exhibit P1860.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This is a report of the 19th of June, 1995.

 4             Can we now look at the following page.

 5             Do you agree that in the first paragraph, it says that the

 6     offensive of the B and H Army is expected to continue?  Can you look at

 7     the first paragraph:

 8             "The situation remains extremely tense and limited ..."

 9             [In English] "... ABiH offensive is expected to continue."

10             [Interpretation] Limited to Sarajevo, thus; is that correct?

11        A.   I have not seen this report before, I think.  And I read the same

12     as you, but I have -- we were not the recipients of these kind of

13     reports.  So, again, I just read what is stated in the report.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And let's see what your

15     OP reported back.

16             Can we look at the fifth page on from this one.

17             It says "086180."  Actually, we need the following page, the ERN

18     number.  But here also you have that there was fire at Nedzarici, which

19     is a Serbian neighbourhood, and then on this page also you can see OP 4

20     is reporting that the Bosnia and Herzegovina Army and the Army of

21     Republika Srpska fired, and more shots were fired by the

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina Army.  And then SC-1 reports, and so on and so forth.

23     Is that correct.

24        A.   I again see the report, and I can state what I've stated before:

25     At that time, it was a lot of firing outgoing from Sarajevo and incoming

Page 8692

 1     into Sarajevo, and I'm not sure that I was on the OP when those reports

 2     was given to -- were given to the UNMO HQ.  But it was a very hectic

 3     time, firing from both sides of the confrontation line.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And let's just look at the next page quickly.  It's

 5     the same kind of thing, a minute-by-minute report on the situation for

 6     that day?

 7        A.   Excuse me, which page?

 8        Q.   The next page.  Yes, 182 is the ERN number, and you can see that

 9     the exchange of fire was being recorded from minute to minute, and you

10     can see that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was not lagging behind in

11     any way in this firing.

12             Can we look at the next page, please.

13             And then can we look at 185, the ERN number, the last digits of

14     the ERN number.  This is page 12 of a total of 16 pages of this document.

15             And you can see here:

16             [In English] "UNMO Team SW-2 carried out investigation ..."

17             [Interpretation] It seems that there was an investigation carried

18     out into a 120-millimetre mortar strike.  It was difficult to confirm --

19     it was not possible to confirm or establish the location because the

20     local police removed the fragments, and the impact site was into a

21     concrete wall four metres above ground level, and so on and so forth.  Do

22     you see this paragraph?

23        A.   Yes, I see the paragraph.

24        Q.   And then you were taken to the morgue to see some seven bodies.

25     How do you know where those bodies came from?

Page 8693

 1        A.   First, I have to say that I was not investigating this incident

 2     myself, so I have no answer to the question because I was not at the spot

 3     and I was not at the hospital.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But in your statements, you give a general

 5     assessment, a general picture of the situation, and this is a document of

 6     your service.

 7             Can you please look at the last sentence on this page:

 8             "About the military situation for the BSA at the moment, he said

 9     that the BiH had launched several offensives and attacks ..."

10             [In English] " ... in the last days, but that the BSA had no

11     problems holding their positions."

12             [Interpretation] Is that correct?

13        A.   I'm not sure -- you say my statement gave a general assessment, a

14     general picture of the situation.  Is that from my private document from

15     2001?

16             JUDGE KWON:  I take it Mr. Karadzic was referring to the last

17     paragraph of this document, not yours.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19             This is an assessment of the UNMO HQ and not my assessment, so I

20     read what it stated.

21             JUDGE KWON:  In relation to this document, you stated in your

22     amalgamated statement -- in para 33, you stated that you were not sure if

23     you were on that observation post that day.  Do you remember that?

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 8694

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You said, Mr. Brennskag, that the Muslim side had only mortars,

 3     and you noted one tank, for which you say that you didn't see when it

 4     fired, you didn't see it firing?

 5        A.   No, I said that I saw -- I knew about mortars, and I saw the

 6     single tank just beside or on my way to OP 4.  I didn't see it was

 7     firing.  I did not say that I knew about -- exactly about the other

 8     weapons the ABiH had.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we look at 1D2567 now, please.

11             I'm afraid there is no translation, but I will read it to you,

12     and I kindly ask the interpreters to control whether -- actually, I'm

13     going to read in the Serbian, and the interpreters will translate.

14             This is -- I'm going to read slowly to allow the interpreters to

15     keep up, and they have the document on the screen.

16             This is a strictly confidential order by the commander of the

17     12th Division.  It's an order to attack of the 11th of June, 1995.

18     Plan T -- Plan Tekbir thus approved by the commander of the 1st Corps

19     Brigade, General Karavelic, and in the first --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Brennskag said he didn't know that there was a

21     Muslim offensive in those days.  Is it an appropriate use of time to put

22     such document to this witness?  Do you think this witness is in the

23     position to confirm or not about this document?  You can use this with

24     another witness.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, I'm not

Page 8695

 1     tendering the document in order to confirm whether there was an offensive

 2     or not but in order to look at the positions of the Army of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina which the observers should have known about.  Exactly in

 4     front of the OP 4 observation post were the command posts and the

 5     artillery positions of the army, which should have been observed.  So if

 6     you allow me to move to the next page so that we can see what this looks

 7     like.

 8             Can we look at the next page, please.

 9             Allow me to read the last sentence in the first paragraph:

10             "The units are of good morale, and they are -- are of good morale

11     and are manned up to the strength of 80 per cent in manpower and up to

12     120 per cent in materiel and equipment."

13             And if you can look at the "12th Division," I'm going to read to

14     you the assignment:

15             "At the beginning of assault actions in the areas of the 14th and

16     the 16th Division, in joint co-ordination with units of the Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina MUP ..."

18             But we will skip that as well.

19             Can we look at the next page so that we can see where the command

20     post and the artillery positions were.  They were right in front of you.

21             Here it is.  We're reading 5.1:

22             "Supported by the division -- the 12th Artillery Group ..."

23             We are reading at the end of this 5.1:

24             "Supported by the Artillery Group 12, command post in the sector

25     of Astra, forward command post in the sector of the Sokolje village."

Page 8696

 1             And all of these were around your posts.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you know that Astra is located right next to the television

 4     building?

 5        A.   About Astra, I didn't know.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Can we have the next

 7     page.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Look at paragraph 5.3.  It says:

10             "Supported by DH 12," that's the Artillery Battalion Group 12:

11             "Command post in the sector of Blagoje Parovic School and forward

12     command post in the sector of Orlici."

13             That was left of your observation post; is that correct?

14        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I have stated that I knew

15     there were mortars positioned close to or downhill from the OP.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll down a bit to see

17     where the command post of the 105 Mountain Brigade was.  It's in the area

18     of the park.  So when the Serbs fire at the park, the reports come out of

19     them firing at a civilian zone.

20             Can you scroll down a bit.  A little bit more, please.  It's all

21     right now.

22             It says here:

23             "BBR 152, supported by the DAG-12 command post in the Park

24     Sector, a forward command post in the compound of Kosevo Hospital under

25     construction."

Page 8697

 1             Did you know that in the compound of the Kosevo Hospital, there

 2     were artillery, there were command posts?

 3        A.   Earlier, I have stated that at that time the UN observers inside

 4     Sarajevo had a very strict -- correct -- they were very restricted where

 5     to go, and we were never allowed to go towards the confrontation line or

 6     to the parts where we could expect to find troops or weapons.  The

 7     restrictions came from ABiH.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  With all due respect, Mr. Brennskag, you cannot then

 9     say that it was the Serbs who fired at civilian targets.  Look at what it

10     says about the 152 Brigade:

11             "Command post in the Prkos Sector, forward command post in the

12     Vratnik Sector."

13             JUDGE KWON:  You should not make a statement which is not

14     answered.

15             Mr. Brennskag, Mr. Karadzic said:

16             "You cannot then say that it was the Serbs who fired at civilian

17     targets."

18             Do you like to comment on that?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, of course.  I have only stated that those

20     investigations I had been doing was fired and hurting or killing

21     civilians.  That's a special -- it was the 22nd of July, especially that.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   Can we just briefly go through the next page so that we can see

24     where the 115th Brigade is.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  115 Brigade.

Page 8698

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The command post is on the 6th of April Square.

 3             Can we look at the next page now.

 4             Look at 5.9.  I think we have to go one page back.

 5             5.9:

 6             "Command post of 155th Brigade is in Dobrinja 2 Sector, and 102nd

 7     is in the area of wire factory."

 8             And below that:

 9             "The 12th --"

10             Can you please scroll down.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused please repeat the last

12     statement.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you know where the wire factory was located between your

15     command post and the TV building?  Did you know where this facility was?

16        A.   No, I didn't know about the wire factory.  There were a lot of

17     factory buildings, but we didn't know what they contained or what they

18     have been used for.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up this page

20     altogether.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you know where the Hum Hill is?

23             Scroll down, not up.

24        A.   I think I know where the Hum Hill is.  It's where the radio and

25     television antenna were situated.  I were never up at this hill, but I

Page 8699

 1     was just downside Mali Hum, where one colleague observer team had their

 2     accommodation and OP, observation post, in the same building; Mali Hum.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  The last sentence says:

 4             "The command post of the 12th Artillery Battalion in Velesici,

 5     and its forward command post in the Hum Sector."

 6             Can we look at the next page now.

 7             Please look at item 7.  I'm going to read it out to you.  We are

 8     talking about anti-armour combat, Velesici Sector, command post of a

 9     rocket battery, Mojmilo, and then the task implies that they have a TF-B

10     launcher, that they have a tank platoon, then they have:

11             "POR in the Ciglana Sector (tunnel)."

12             Then they have:

13             "POP-1 in the Brijesca Brda Sector."

14             And we are going to show all these locations in the map, which is

15     where you had your observation posts:

16             "POP-2 in Buce Sector.

17             "POP-3 in Sedrenik Sector.

18             "POP-4 in Stup Sector."

19             And:  "POP-5 in Donji Velesici Sector."

20             Would it only be logical to expect that UNMOs were aware of these

21     deployments if we are to rely on their reports?

22        A.   I can only say what I, myself, know, and I didn't exactly know

23     any of these positions and I was not allowed to go there on patrol.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we move two pages ahead to see how they managed to conceal

Page 8700

 1     that and why you were kept in the dark.  Now I need page 8.

 2             I'm going to read to you as follows.  That's the fourth bullet

 3     from the top, which reads:

 4             "Establish special regime of traffic, with maximum possible

 5     control of vehicles and persons, particularly UNPF and UNMO and other

 6     international organisations.  If necessary, close off all the entry and

 7     exit points to and from Sarajevo for UNPF and other international

 8     associations.  All representatives of international institutions shall be

 9     banned from entering the zone of combat operations without special

10     consent by the commander of the 12th Division of the Land Army.  Prevent

11     the withdrawal of UNPF and, if necessary, bring it into encirclement."

12             Then it says:

13             "Fully ensure and protect artillery weapons from video and

14     photographing by unauthorised persons."

15             Now, do I have to repeat anything for the benefit of the

16     transcript?

17             So it seems that you were treated there as a hostile army.  They

18     made sure that you didn't see anything and you didn't know anything.  And

19     at that time when they are launching their major offensive, they are

20     hiding their weapons, whereas when we respond, we are accused of firing

21     at civilian areas.  Were you able -- was your service capable of

22     portraying a full picture of what was going on?  You said you didn't.

23     Could you confirm that the Serbs were the ones who fired at civilians?

24        A.   First, I have to answer the first question about the picture,

25     what's going on.

Page 8701

 1             I have stated that at that time we had big problems to do our

 2     work inside Sarajevo, and we had no observers on the BSA side.  The

 3     problems that were created to know what was going on inside Sarajevo was

 4     the restriction put on us by the ABiH.

 5             Then I was asked a question about if it only was the Serbs who

 6     fired at civilians.  What I only know is what I was investigating and

 7     what I was seeing about the incoming improvised air-bombs, and some of

 8     them, especially the one I was investigating, was landing and killing

 9     civilians.

10        Q.   We'll come to that, Mr. Brennskag.  Did you ever see any casualty

11     on the spot?

12        A.   Yes, I saw one casualty on the spot on the 22nd of June -- of

13     July.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Are you moving from this document, Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I'd like to have it

16     tendered into evidence.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I was waiting, Mr. Karadzic.  I warned you that it

18     may not be an efficient way of using time.  It took eight pages, in terms

19     of transcript, and you spent 25 hours [sic] despite my -- I'm sorry, 25

20     minutes.  You're reading out these documents or your questions that do

21     not form part of the evidence.  That's the sort of advice you should get

22     from your legal advisers.  The witness did not confirm anything about

23     this document, and there's no basis for us to admit this document through

24     this witness.  Just seriously consider the advice given from the Chamber.

25     You could have asked the witness whether he knew the deployment of BiH

Page 8702

 1     forces.  That could have been done in one or two minutes.  You didn't

 2     have to put all these questions to the witness.  Bear that in mind,

 3     Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

 5     Your Excellency, all of that was done for the next document, which is a

 6     map.  And I studied the testimony of this witness in other trials, and I

 7     know how much attention was given to his testimony, irrespective of the

 8     fact that UNMO reports were useless.

 9             Now, in order to prove that I had my reasons for asking these

10     questions, I would like to call up P1853.

11             The things that the observers didn't know, what they should have

12     known, disqualifies it entirely as a service.

13             Now, can we have, please, P1853.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would note that that last remark

17     by the accused was entirely argumentative and didn't address the Court's

18     question at all.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let me ask you this, Mr. Brennskag.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, refrain from making statements.  Yes,

23     what is your question?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   My question is:  Did you know that high-ranking UNPROFOR officers

Page 8703

 1     considered UNMO's reports inaccurate, unreliable, and unusable?  Did you

 2     know or didn't you?

 3        A.   This the first time I've heard this accusation, and, no, I did

 4     not know.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Does this map show your observation post?

 6        A.   Yes, with the triangle.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  To the right or to the west of your observation post,

 8     can you see the feature called "Brijesko Brdo"?

 9        A.   I can see the name on the map, yes.

10        Q.   Would you be kind enough to put a circle around "Brijesko Brdo."

11     Well, you needn't do that.  Suffice it that you identified it.

12             Now, can you see "Boljakov Potok" to the east of your post?

13        A.   I see the name written in letters, yes, "Boljakov Potok."

14        Q.   Thank you.  In the bottom right-hand corner, do you see that it's

15     written "Tvornica Zice," a wire factory.  Next to the railway tracks, to

16     the south of the railway tracks, it says "AMK Tvornica Zice"?

17        A.   I read "AMK Tvornica Zice," yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the radio and television building, painted

19     red?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  East of the "RTV," it says "Gras."  That's the

22     Sarajevo public transport company and all its assets and installations.

23     Mr. Brennskag, I am listing the localities where crucial military

24     installations of the BH Army were deployed, artillery positions and

25     displacement and other positions.  Do you -- or did you know that the

Page 8704

 1     BH Army installations were clustered all around you?  Those are the ones

 2     that we listed in the previous document which at the time seemed to be

 3     irrelevant.  Now you see "Kuca Potok," "Donji Dolac," et cetera.  These

 4     are all the localities occupied by the BH Army and from which they

 5     threatened us.  Did you know that?

 6        A.   I see the positions or the names on the map.  We were restricted

 7     to go and see what was there.  And I didn't know then that it was army

 8     locations, and I don't know now.

 9        Q.   But from a BH Army document, we saw that those were important

10     places where they had command posts and artillery and mortar positions

11     from which they opened fire.  If your evidence is to be ascribed

12     considerable credibility, then you should have known that.

13        A.   But I didn't because --

14             JUDGE KWON:  That's not for the witness.  The witness said he

15     didn't know that.  You should move on, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this document been admitted?

17     Yes, it's a P exhibit, right.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Brennskag, can you tell me this:  The so-called aerial

20     bomb that you saw hitting the TV building, had it flown over your

21     observation post?

22        A.   No.  It was observed in front of the observation post, and I have

23     to state that this is the 28th of July, 1995.

24        Q.   I'd rather think it was June, it was not July.  Do you agree?

25        A.   Yes, yes, of course.

Page 8705

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 2             Can we remove this map and show a photograph, D808, Exhibit D808.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Was this projectile capable of flying over the position where

 5     Captain Hansen was?  Can you see your observation post in this

 6     photograph?

 7        A.   Not my observation post.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Are you familiar with this area?

 9        A.   Yes, I think I could see the television building in the middle of

10     the photo.

11        Q.   Do you see the other buildings, the wire factory, in the

12     background?  Can you see other facilities?

13        A.   I didn't know it was a wire factory.  I see a building behind the

14     TV building, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Therefore, you had never seen an aerial bomb before

16     it's being fired?

17        A.   Yes, I have seen.

18        Q.   But before it was fired, did you see this bomb before it was

19     fired, before it would be fired?

20        A.   No, I never seen a modified air-bomb before it was fired.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You stated that -- your testimony in the case of

22     General Milosevic on the 8th of March, on page 3467, did you state that

23     in your opinion, mortars were more precise in comparison with the

24     air-bombs?

25        A.   Yes, in a way that the mortars, they are able to hit the target,

Page 8706

 1     and you can correct the impact so you will have the effect that you want.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             I am looking at the time, and I'm just wondering whether --

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Well, tell me, sir, Mr. Brennskag, you stated that you were not

 6     educated -- you did not have education or information about how these

 7     modified air-bombs were launched; is that right?

 8        A.   I have no previous education about modified air-bombs, no.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it time for a break?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             We'll have a break for half an hour.  We'll resume at 11.00.

12                           {The witness stands down]

13                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             I appreciated the Chamber's suggestion to raise the matter after

18     the conclusion of this witness's testimony, but as I indicated, there may

19     be some knock-on effects and time may be of the essence in certain

20     respects.

21             I'd like to raise one specific matter in private session and then

22     move on to some more general comments.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let's go into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 8707











11  Pages 8707-8708 redacted. Private session.















Page 8709

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             More generally -- and I appreciate the opportunity to be heard

 8     with respect -- in private session with respect to that specific matter,

 9     but more generally, I wanted to once again raise the point that changes

10     in the court schedule on short notice clearly have an impact on witness

11     schedules and on the witnesses, themselves, and, for that reason, among

12     others, have to be balanced against the basis of the request and the

13     rights of the accused.  In this particular case, we've heard submissions

14     this morning, also the message by e-mail from Mr. Robinson earlier, the

15     documents in question are 66(B) requests, that is, responses to the

16     accused's broad request for a wide range of information produced by

17     witnesses, most of which, if not all of which, have little to do with the

18     specific nature of the -- and specific focus of the witnesses' testimony

19     and, in any event, are amenable to rapid review to determine whether or

20     not they are of assistance to the accused.

21             The other factor, of course, was the witness interview.  All of

22     these factors, I would emphasise, bear on the accused's decision to

23     assume for himself virtually all, if not all, of the responsibilities

24     associated with presenting the case.  Now, he certainly has a right to

25     self-representation and a right to do that, but there are concomitant

Page 8710

 1     responsibilities that go with that, including accepting the inevitable

 2     consequences of not delegating to others such responsibilities as

 3     interviewing witnesses before they appear in court.

 4             So I raise that because the effect on this schedule is that --

 5     for this week, is that clearly not all the witnesses who were scheduled

 6     to be called can be called, and I raised it at this point before

 7     Mr. Brennskag concluded because it may be possible to prevent one witness

 8     from -- who's scheduled to travel today from travelling, if it is,

 9     indeed, the Court's intention to block out tomorrow instead of hearing

10     testimony on that date.  But as a general matter, I did want to express

11     concern about the impact of the accused's decision to take onto himself

12     every aspect of trial presentation and trial preparation.  That would

13     certainly not normally be the approach taken by a trial team.  That may

14     be his decision, but it shouldn't mean that witnesses suffer for it.

15     But, again, I raise the matter now because, depending on the Court's

16     decision, there still may be an opportunity for us to take some

17     ameliorative steps.

18             Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Can we know, Mr. Tieger, when were those materials

20     requested for by the Defence?

21             MR. TIEGER:  There's been a standing request for those materials

22     for quite some time, and the accused and the Defence team is well aware

23     of the fact that we have to prioritise the allocation of resources to

24     undertake those searches, in accordance with all the other

25     responsibilities that the Prosecution has.  So they're well aware of the

Page 8711

 1     fact that they're provided on a rolling basis.  That has been the case

 2     ever since late June, and we continue to move forward on those at the

 3     earliest possible opportunity, balancing those against all the other

 4     responsibilities and burdens and necessary resource limitations that

 5     exist, including responding periodically to very specific requests for

 6     assistance by the Defence, with which we always attempt to accommodate

 7     them if it is at all possible.

 8             So I think that the more -- I believe the more significant point

 9     at this moment is:  What is the nature of the review necessary, in light

10     of those documents which don't have to do with the specific incidents

11     involved, but -- and can be reviewed very quickly to determine whether or

12     not they fall within the province of whatever it is that the Defence

13     considered they might possibly be useful for?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

15             I looked at the trial schedule again, and in my estimate, we may

16     be able to finish the evidence of those two witnesses via videolink at

17     the end of today; at most, the early part of tomorrow morning.  Then

18     you'll have the whole of tomorrow morning.  And Wednesday, we are sitting

19     in the afternoon, so I take it we should be able to hear the evidence of

20     KDZ485 on Wednesday afternoon.  Is that an impossibility, Mr. Karadzic?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First, let me say we are preparing

22     for witnesses in the sequence announced to us by the OTP.  Secondly, the

23     OTP often changes something.  With all due respect to Mr. Tieger, I think

24     the time is not the most important aspect, but the aspect of establishing

25     the truth is.  This is not a gun-fight.  We need to have enough time at

Page 8712

 1     our disposal.  I understand why miners work in two or three shifts.  They

 2     want to earn some money.  What can I earn from such a rhythm where I

 3     cannot even lift my head from so much work?  From what I have heard in

 4     other Defence teams, even good lawyers were not able, in the time

 5     allotted, to --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Having heard the situation in which the witness is

 7     in, so I'm just exploring the possibility to accommodate his request as

 8     much as possible.  So I take it your answer is no.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, because my team in Belgrade is

10     preparing, and it should be coming.  They are preparing for that

11     particular witness, and in the meantime I have one witness before that.

12     That is KDZ --

13             JUDGE KWON:  You have two witnesses.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have two.  But 485, nobody's

15     preparing for him at this point in time, because I have two before that,

16     323 and 244.

17             JUDGE KWON:  In that case, I would like to recommend you,

18     Mr. Tieger, to consider this, consider to swap the order of witnesses,

19     either the order of KDZ485 with either of those two witnesses who are to

20     be coming before him, in consultation with the Defence.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Will do, Your Honour, and that's one of the reasons

22     I raised it right now.

23             It appears to me at this point that the testimony of KDZ244

24     cannot be accommodated this week, under the circumstances described by

25     the Court.  And if that's the case, I can see no reason at all why we

Page 8713

 1     couldn't accommodate the specific circumstances that the Court just

 2     alluded to and make sure we hear a witness who needs to be heard.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's bring in the witness.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we had requested eight hours for

 7     KDZ485, not the 14 that I mentioned.  I'm sure you'll be happy to hear

 8     that.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, we are, Mr. Robinson.

10             And I take it we'll be able to finish this witness's evidence

11     during this session, Mr. Karadzic?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Excellency,

13     because the witness has a very selective memory and his statement has

14     been admitted in previous cases.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.  Sorry, Your Honour.  Just reverting to

16     the scheduling issue quickly.

17             One of the factors I didn't mention, but the Court will be aware

18     of it, is that at least two of the witnesses scheduled for next week are

19     fixed, and so that gives us much less flexibility to bleed over, which is

20     one of the reasons I mentioned the inability to accommodate the testimony

21     of one of the witnesses this week.  So it will turn out to be a matter of

22     significant rescheduling, rather than simply moving forward

23     progressively.  But I think we can do that, and I will alert the Court if

24     there's any difficulty with that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 8714

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, we are now dealing with the incident of the 28th

 5     of June, 1995, involving the bombing of the television building.  You

 6     said that you saw the place from where the projectile was fired; is that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes, I saw the place from where it was fired.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we have 65 ter 13567, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And while we are waiting:  Can you describe exactly what you saw

13     at the moment of firing.

14        A.   Excuse me.  Could I please have the English written version.

15             At first, I saw a smoke projectile, and you could follow the

16     smoke tail from where it was fired.  And, of course, you hear the

17     explosion, or afterwards.  First, you see the smoke tail of the

18     projectile.

19        Q.   All right.  At that point in time, you were at OP 4; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   That was when I was in OP 4 early in the morning the 28th of

22     June.

23        Q.   Can I please ask you to look at this map in the e-court.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do we not have a map of better quality?  It should

25     be page 8 of the Sarajevo-specific court binder.

Page 8715

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, page 8, but we need a map

 2     without detail.  We need to mark it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Usually when we zoom in, we should be able to see

 4     the detail.  But in this case, it's impossible.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are going to see if

 6     Mr. Brennskag can find his way around.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you see Vitkovac here?

 9        A.   It's very difficult to see on this map.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we really do need a better

11     map.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can this map be better?

14        A.   Yes, I'm able to find approximately where my OP was on this map,

15     approximately.

16        Q.   Can I ask you, please, to mark that place with the number 1?  Can

17     you mark it with a triangle, circle, and the number 1.

18        A.   Yes, I'll try, but it will be approximately because the map is

19     not that good.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

21             I think the map's being switched.  A better-quality map is being

22     up-loaded now.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you wait until a nicer map is up-loaded.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Until then, Mr. Brennskag, how about this:  Did you observe that

Page 8716

 1     point before the firing?  What was it that attracted your attention?

 2        A.   My attention was attracted of the smoke in the air, and I was

 3     able to trace the smoke back to from where it was firing.

 4        Q.   So first of all you saw smoke at the point of the origination of

 5     the fire; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And then you followed.  So at the moment of firing, your

 8     attention was drawn by smoke; is that correct?

 9        A.   It was my attention at the smoke path directly in front of me,

10     yes.

11        Q.   For how long did you follow that smoke trail?

12        A.   It's hard to remember, but let's say half of the path.  But

13     that's just an assumption today.

14        Q.   How long did that take, in terms of time?

15        A.   I don't remember.  I can't say.

16        Q.   Are you able to mark Vitkovac on this map?

17             Can we zoom in on the left half.  Oh, we cannot, because then we

18     will lose the whole map.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Did he mark anything?  We can zoom in.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we can.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Further, we can zoom in further.

22             Would this be fine, Mr. Karadzic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you see Vitkovac here, where it says -- east of number 5,

Page 8717

 1     just below the line marking this rectangle?

 2        A.   Yes, I see the name "Vitkovac" on the map.

 3        Q.   Can you please -- or, rather, do you see where the TV is,

 4     number 17?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Why don't we zoom in further.

 6     Usher, could you come back again.  Let's do it after zooming in further.

 7     Yes, and go up.  Up, up, up, yes.

 8             Is it okay, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   But I would kindly ask the witness to memorise this.  And when we

12     zoom out, can you see Vitkovac now and the TV building?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we go back, then.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could you please mark Vitkovac and the TV building in this map?

17        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

18        Q.   Vitkovac, number 1; is that what you did?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   TV building, please put number 2.  Or if you agree that it

21     corresponds to number 17, we don't need any marks.

22        A.   It corresponds to 17.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now mark the place from which the projectile

24     was fired?

25        A.   Today, I then have to make an area marked, Ilidza area.

Page 8718

 1        Q.   Okay, please go ahead.  Mark this area.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Can you please put number 2.

 4        A.   [Marks].

 5        Q.   This point of origin of fire was on which riverbank?

 6        A.   That, I don't know.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you draw a trajectory between position number 17

 8     and the position from which the projectile was fired?

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Can you mark that with number 3?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now mark the PTT building in this map?  Is it

13     a little bit north of number 15?

14        A.   I mark the PTT building [marks].

15        Q.   Can we put number 4, please?

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.  You said that this trajectory was pretty much a

18     horizontal one; is that correct?

19        A.   No, I never said that.

20        Q.   In the proceedings against General Milosevic, Judge Robinson

21     asked you about the shape of the trajectory, and you said that it was

22     horizontal, pretty horizontal.  And if that were the case, it should have

23     impacted the wall at a right angle; is that correct?

24        A.   Now, if I have said that it was pretty horizontal, I was

25     comparing it with an artillery or a mortar trajectory or path, and it's

Page 8719

 1     flatter or more horizontal because -- I can't find the right English

 2     word.  It's not that ballistic that -- an artillery or mortar.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to draw attention to

 4     the parties to page 3466 of the 8th of March, 2005, and then we can see

 5     what was it that you said exactly.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have it in e-court?

 7             But let's keep this, first of all.  Could you put the date of

 8     today and your signature on this map.

 9             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's already November.  Yes, we'll give the

11     number for this.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that is Exhibit D851.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Do we have it in e-court; I mean, the

14     transcript of the Milosevic case?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just see what the number is.

16     I think it was offered by the OTP as 65 ter 10249.  And then we need

17     page 10249 -- no, no, that's the number of this thing, but it says here

18     "3466."  So 3466 in this document.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Page 20.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

21        Q.   You can see your response, which begins:  "I understand ..."

22     Would you be so kind as to read your reply.

23        A.   I have to see what I'm -- what this answer is, because I think

24     this is from -- I was --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the previous page.

Page 8720

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, what was the shape of the trajectory or the path

 3     of this projectile?

 4        A.   It was not ballistic, but it was more -- because of the rocket

 5     that brought it out of the ballistic path, it was a little bit

 6     more - what do you call it? - horizontal than if it has been a ballistic

 7     missile.

 8        Q.   Well, this is exactly what I asked you about.  So it was more

 9     horizontal than any other projectile; is that correct?

10        A.   It depends on the distance the ballistic projectiles are fired.

11        Q.   But this particular projectile had a more horizontal trajectory

12     than any other projectile fired from the same distance?

13        A.   No, I didn't say that, because I was not able to follow any other

14     types of projectile in the air, the path, let's say, from artillery or

15     from mortars, because they don't have any smoke tail you can trace in the

16     air.

17        Q.   Then on the basis of what did you conclude this trajectory to be

18     horizontal?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to read from the previous page,

20     Mr. Brennskag?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I'm not sure what the question was on this,

22     so I must look a little bit before this statement.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go one page further, and

25     then we'll get back to this question.  Actually, back.  3464, two pages

Page 8721

 1     back.  Yes.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you look at the question you were being asked, and you said

 4     that it was going towards PTT building:

 5             [In English] "And I saw the rocket smoke just afterwards, and

 6     impact in the TV building."

 7             [Interpretation] Judge Harhoff asked you:

 8             "And was it a straight line from the launching point to the

 9     impact point?"

10             And you said:  "Yes."

11             And then Judge Harhoff asked you the following:

12             "So the implication of your answer is that the modified air-bomb

13     that you saw --"

14             JUDGE KWON:  Scroll down.  Let the witness read the transcript.

15     If you're done --

16             THE WITNESS:  I know what I was answering, because I was asked to

17     point out from where the firing point should be if Mr. Hansen's report

18     was correct, and I marked it on the map.  And then I was asked if it was

19     fired from that point to the PTT building, it would be a horizontal

20     trajectory, and that's also I said it would be a big problem to fire a

21     modified air-bomb from that place.  That's why I said, in my statement on

22     the board here now, that it must be then horizontal.

23             Am I clarifying it?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

25             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 8722

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And then Judge Harhoff asked you if your response implied that

 3     the modified air-bomb could not have passed over the point identified by

 4     Captain Hansen, is that correct, and you answered, Yes; is that correct?

 5     It's on the next page in English.

 6        A.   Yes, then I go back to the report from Captain Hansen.  And if

 7     his report is correct, the projectile couldn't pass, as far as I know,

 8     just across the PTT building, where the UN observers had their HQ.  And

 9     that's my answer, because where I was asked to -- to tell where

10     Captain Hansen was -- Captain Hansen said the modified air-bomb was fired

11     from.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We'll go back to the map shortly.

13             Now, you said if the trajectory was horizontal, for it to go off,

14     it needed to impact a wall at an angle of 90 degrees; is that correct?

15        A.   That's again from -- if Captain Hansen's report is correct.

16        Q.   But in the case cited by you, saying that the trajectory was

17     horizontal, what would then happen had this projectile hit a flat roof?

18     Would it go off or would it ricochet?

19        A.   The modified air-bomb I observed and reported was not horizontal,

20     but a little bit more horizontal than a ballistic missile, and I can't

21     speculate in what happened where it impacted because I did not -- I was

22     not at the spot and I did not investigate the impact in the TV building.

23        Q.   Thank you.  But you maintain your opinion that in order for the

24     bomb to go off, its fuse should have impacted close to 90 degrees?  A

25     horizontal shot, in order to go off, must hit a wall at an angle close to

Page 8723

 1     90 degrees; is that correct?

 2        A.   I have no knowledge about that.  I only said, in a previous

 3     statement, that if Captain Hansen's report of the origin of firing, the

 4     projectile had to be almost horizontal, and then if it was almost

 5     horizontal, it would have hit a wall almost 90 degrees to the wall.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can we have these two pages admitted into evidence?

 8             Can we go three pages further, back to 3466.

 9             And we would like to tender into evidence 3464, 3465, and 3466.

10             Now, let's look again at your answer on page 3466.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's admit from 3463 to 66, four pages, in order to

12     understand the context.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D852, Your Honours.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you please look at it.  And tell me, is this your answer at

16     line 15 which begins:  "I understand"; is this correct?

17        A.   I see the line, yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we now have the previous map back again, the one with the

20     markings, P851.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Where was Captain Hansen --

23             JUDGE KWON:  I have to raise it right now.

24             Given that the same team is working for the whole of today,

25     there's an amount of time that we can sit altogether for today.  If we

Page 8724

 1     are going to go further than 12.30 today in the morning, then the time

 2     for us to be able to sit for videolink will be limited, which means you

 3     have to spend more time tomorrow morning.  So by 12.00, you will have

 4     spent almost three hours, which was originally allowed, so think about

 5     concluding your cross-examination by 12.30 or 25 in order for the

 6     Prosecution to have some redirect.  I'll leave it in your hands.

 7             Let's proceed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best, but

 9     I'm afraid that it will not be sufficient, once again.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, where was Captain Hansen at the time when this

12     projectile flew over?  Is it true that he was in the PTT building?

13        A.   This will be second-hand information.  So I don't know exactly,

14     but I think he was inside the PTT building.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What was the direction quoted in his report by

16     Captain Hansen?  Was that north-west?

17        A.   I can't remember.

18        Q.   All right.  Can you please draw the north-west trajectory in this

19     map?  And after that, we shall look at his document.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   I'm afraid this is south-easterly direction.  That's what you

22     marked --

23        A.   This is north-west.

24        Q.   -- do you agree?  But the shell that he is talking about,

25     according to him, came from north-west to south-east.  It came from

Page 8725

 1     north-west; it didn't go to that direction.

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I misunderstood.  I pointed out the north-west

 3     direction on the map.  And if he said it would be like this, this is

 4     south-east/north-west [marks].

 5        Q.   Can you please draw this line with respect to the point of impact

 6     in the TV building?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we all know where the north is.  Is it

 8     necessary?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is necessary because the

10     trajectory that would have come from north-west would go exactly over the

11     PTT building, where Captain Hansen and his fellow officer were.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  We'll delete that direction first,

13     north-west.  Delete.  And then if you could draw a line that would come

14     to that PTT building from the north-west direction.  Shall we draw it in

15     red, in the red colour.

16             THE WITNESS:  You said "PTT building"?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] TV building, yes.

18             THE WITNESS:  The TV building.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

20             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Perhaps you can put number 5 to indicate the direction quoted by

23     Captain Hansen.

24             Maybe we can tender it under the same number.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we can keep it as it is.

Page 8726

 1             THE WITNESS:  By all respect, I don't remember -- I don't know

 2     Captain Hansen's statement right now, so I mark only the arrow that

 3     points from north-west to south-east across the TV building and mark it

 4     with -- which number?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Number 5.  Thank you, Mr. Brennskag.

 6             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 9837.  9837,

 8     65 ter.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, were -- all the reports from the HQ were actually

11     second-hand reports?  First-hand reports came from the observers; is that

12     right?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, the witness already answered this

14     question.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we please now have 65 ter 9837.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is this a report from the UNMO Sarajevo Sector, from Captain

20     Hansen, who prepared it, Captain Hansen, and it was issued by

21     Colonel Alam?  And you can see here in the first paragraph where it says

22     "the 28th of June, at 9.20," and it is being described here.  Is it here

23     a description of that event?

24        A.   I have seen this report before.  It's like an immediate report,

25     it's dated the 29th of June.  And I read this report, and I have no

Page 8727

 1     information about why or how it's made like this.  And it's not up to me

 2     to say anything about what this report is stating.  I only know what I

 3     saw the 28th of June.

 4        Q.   What did you report?  Why isn't there your part, the part that

 5     you reported, in this report?  There is another part of the text towards

 6     the bottom of the page here, where it says:

 7             "Another UNMO was on the parking place at the same time, and his

 8     report is included."

 9             So why isn't your report from OP 4 part of this report as well?

10     Do you have an explanation?  Did you report to your HQ what you saw?

11        A.   I don't know why not my report is included in this report of the

12     29th of June.  I reported orally, as far as I know, directly to the OP --

13     to the UN HQ the same day.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page here

15     of this document.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you see that it says here that the team, your team from OP 4

18     that was looking into that area, was taking cover, and there is no report

19     from them?  There is no information from that observation post; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   It was written, but it's not correct.

22        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, am I supposed to take your word for it that you

23     submitted an oral report, whereas we have an official document, a report

24     from Captain Hansen and Colonel Alam, about there being no report from

25     you?  So in what way and how did you submit your report on this matter,

Page 8728

 1     then?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was raising to make the point that the

 4     witness -- Mr. Karadzic is being argumentative, and he should simply put

 5     his question.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness is able to answer this question.

 7     Can you?  Can you answer the question, Mr. Brennskag?

 8             THE WITNESS:  You have my word, yes, because I'm under oath.  I

 9     don't know why my oral report is not attached to this report.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You said that the report is usually submitted by the leader of

12     the monitoring team; is that right?

13        A.   I said that normally, usually, it was submitted, a daily report

14     from the UNMO team, yes.  These events, the 28th of June, was special, so

15     we were going directly with our oral report to HQ, UNMO HQ.

16        Q.   Are you trying to say that written reports were submitted about

17     less important events, while oral reports were submitted about important

18     events?  Yes or no.

19        A.   I said that normally we made written reports.  At that time, we

20     also used oral reports because it was so much that happened that

21     sometimes we had to go directly to the HQ with our reports.  Normally, we

22     also used radio reports, but at this time we didn't dare because of our

23     own safety.  And I have stated before that when we reported such

24     happenings -- such events on the radio, we were fired at from the BiH

25     side.

Page 8729

 1        Q.   Are you trying to say that unimportant events were reported on by

 2     the team leader, whereas important events were reported on by his

 3     colleague, who was not a team leader and was not a senior team member; is

 4     that right?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Brennskag:  Yes,

 6     Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has answered the

 8     question about what was important and unimportant and what was reported

 9     and what wasn't.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.

11             If you find it impossible to conclude by 12.30, we need to take a

12     break.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have more time,

14     really.  I've seen that in other cases, greater faith was given to this

15     unreliable recollection than to this reliable document.  I cannot leave

16     that unclarified.

17             JUDGE KWON:  It's not a necessary statement, and unhelpful.  And

18     think about the time wasted in relation to the witness this morning, as I

19     indicated earlier on.  I think you should be able to finish your

20     cross-examination by 12.30.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, I would ask you, if you respond to me with a yes

23     or no, then we will finish more quickly.  Were you the team leader that

24     day or not?

25        A.   I was never team leader in the Pofalici team.

Page 8730

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the team leader submitted reports?

 2        A.   That is correct.  Normally, I said, the team leader submitted

 3     reports every day.  That's because the team had several tasks.  The team

 4     had the OP, they had investigations, and they had patrols when they were

 5     able to do the patrols.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can I please have the first page of this document again.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you see that it says here that this was fired from the

10     B and H Army territory and that that is approximately 1800 metres from

11     the nearest confrontation line?  Yes or no; does it say that or not?

12        A.   I read what is stated, yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Can we get the last page.  The last page is the diagram.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   In the original, is this the diagram that accompanies the

17     telegram and states that the bomb was 60 centimetres wide, that it had

18     fins, and that it looked like this?

19        A.   I don't know if this sketch were -- supported the report, and I

20     don't know who was drawing it, and I don't have -- I have never seen such

21     a bomb, so I have no idea what's written here about which bomb it is, and

22     the size of it, and how it looks like.

23        Q.   Thank you.  This is 612, 613, and 614.  Those are the page

24     numbers, so it's a part of this telegram.

25             Did you know that the Muslim side was modifying air-bombs?

Page 8731

 1        A.   To your question about the ABiH and modified air-bombs, I did not

 2     know that they had such air-bombs, and I don't know today if they had.

 3        Q.   But you cannot rule it out; is that correct?

 4        A.   That's correct, I don't know.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we tender this document?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D853, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D2680, please.  We are

10     just going to look at this briefly, one paragraph.  1D2680, yes.  I don't

11     know if there's a translation.  Allow me to inform you about the

12     document.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   The Command of the 12th Division, strictly confidential,

15     Sarajevo, the 23rd of June [as interpreted], 1995:

16             "Fortification of firing position and PVO positions for striking

17     at targets on the ground, to be delivered to the unit commands."

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think the document is dated the 23rd of July,

21     1995.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I said "July," but I

23     probably didn't articulate enough.

24             Allow me to read it, just the first paragraph:

25             "Touring the units of the 12th Division, it was established that

Page 8732

 1     the firing positions for the PVO weapons, used to shoot at surface

 2     targets, have not been properly executed.  In order to improve the state

 3     of the same, I order:  Firing positions that have been constructed in

 4     order to strike at targets on the surface need to be additionally

 5     constructed, fortified up to a sufficient degree to guarantee the safety

 6     of the operators and enable long-term firing.  While carrying out the

 7     engineering works on the firing positions, pay attention to complete

 8     masking ..."

 9             And so on and so forth.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is it clear to you now why you didn't see their installations,

12     because they had masked them very well; is that correct?

13        A.   I have no knowledge about -- I didn't have and I don't have any

14     knowledge about that they had those kind of improvised air-bombs on the

15     ABiH side.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit this document, please?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Again, you know the position of the Chamber,

18     Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this speaks about the same

20     thing that the UN observer should have known about, because he was

21     observing what the parties to the conflict were doing.  This is a

22     document by the Muslim party, proving that they did have them, and it

23     corresponds with what Captain Hansen said.

24             JUDGE KWON:  He commented about his knowledge of a modified bomb

25     on the part of the Muslim side, and he commented on the UNMO report.

Page 8733

 1     That's all you can get from this witness.  You will have another

 2     opportunity to tender this document later on, and you can make a

 3     submission as to his credibility or not, or anything else.  It is just

 4     totally a waste of time putting these kind of documents to the witness,

 5     who knows nothing about this.  And you can't complain shortage of your

 6     time.

 7             You have 15 minutes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, did you know that from the Sarajevo Television

10     building, fire was opened at us using artillery weapons?  Did you know

11     that?  Yes or no.

12        A.   I never knew that it was firing from the television building.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 09850.  09850.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is information about the situation at the front.  This is

16     not a report.  It's information.  Let's see what the Sarajevo

17     Romanija Corps was reporting on the 30th of June, 1995.

18             May I -- the first sentence is:

19             "The Muslim offensive to raise the blockade of Sarajevo that has

20     been in progress for 15 days."

21             The third paragraph:

22             "Due to the lack of success and enormous losses in their ranks,

23     the enemy artillery is fiercely attacking along the entire front-line and

24     at inhabited areas."

25             In the middle of this paragraph, it says:

Page 8734

 1             "Our artillery is precisely responding to the fire by the Muslim

 2     artillery attacks.  In one such response on the 28th of June, they hit

 3     the Radio/Television Centre of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 4             Mr. Brennskag, does it not state here that -- does it state here

 5     that the strike was an artillery strike or an air-bomb strike?

 6        A.   I see what's written, and I only can say what I saw.  And it was

 7     an air-bomb that I could trace, and just afterwards it was an explosion

 8     in the TV building.

 9        Q.   Would you have seen an artillery shell?

10        A.   It's an artillery shell on its way to -- to the goal or to the --

11     where it's aimed, it could scarcely -- maybe you are happy to see it, but

12     I never saw it in Sarajevo.  I've seen it in my training at home in

13     Norway.

14        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Brennskag, that you would see the smoke

15     immediately upon firing, and it would be visible from 1.7 to 4 seconds,

16     at the most?  Did you know that?  And then after that, there is no smoke

17     tail that is visible?

18        A.   I know what I saw.  I saw the smoke tail, and I can't say for how

19     many seconds I saw it.

20        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, you saw what Mr. Hansen saw as well, that the

21     Muslims fired that shell - who knows where it was directed at - and you

22     did not see the Serb artillery shell because it was not visible.

23             Can we tender this document?

24             Is that correct?

25        A.   No, that's not correct.  I didn't saw what Mr. Hansen saw.

Page 8735

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Unless it is objected to, we'll --

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D854, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see that the opposing side is

 7     happy.  They probably wanted to offer that in the redirect, but this is a

 8     document speaking about the artillery.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, were you informed about the incident in

11     Geteova Street, in the Alipasino neighbourhood, on the 22nd of June,

12     1995?  You said at the time that one girl was killed.

13        A.   That was the 22nd of --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, he said "22nd."

15             THE WITNESS:  -- June, and I was not only informed; I was asked

16     to go there immediate to investigate.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Why didn't you say that in your diary?

19        A.   I have no answer to that.  It's my private diary or written

20     memories.  That's open for the Court.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you were not permitted to go to the

22     hospital; is that correct?

23        A.   As far as I remember, we were not admitted to go to the hospital.

24     Or if there was someone else from the team that should go there, I don't

25     remember, but I was not in the hospital -- at the hospital.

Page 8736

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You were not able to decide from which point the

 2     projectile was fired; is that correct?

 3        A.   As far as I know, we couldn't exactly tell the point of firing.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You were not able to explain how fragments or

 5     shrapnel of the projectile killed anyone who was positioned behind some

 6     kind of barrier or some kind of wall?

 7        A.   This is not my knowledge.  We just --

 8        Q.   You stated this in your testimony in the case of

 9     General Milosevic on the 8th of March, on page 3497.  Now we're wasting

10     time on this, but can shrapnel like that kill someone who is behind the

11     wall?

12        A.   As I think I said then, it will be speculations.  We investigated

13     the impact on the pavement, and we registrated [sic] that one girl was

14     taken away from the spot.  She was seriously wounded.  I saw her face,

15     and I thought she were killed.  And afterwards, not me, but others in the

16     UN could state that she was dead.

17        Q.   Where was she at the point in time the explosion went off?

18        A.   I was not there where the explosion -- where the impact or the

19     explosion went off, and that's why I don't know where she was exactly at

20     that time.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you did not show the condition of

22     the wall and the effects of the explosion on the wall?

23        A.   As far as I know, I did not.  As far as I know, our report was

24     from the investigation of the impact in -- on the pavement, and from what

25     has happened -- what we saw on the pavement, we were able to trace from

Page 8737

 1     which direction the projectile has been fired.

 2        Q.   Would you expect to find traces of fragments on the nearby wall?

 3     Where did those fragments disappear to?  There had to have been some

 4     traces on the wall; right?

 5        A.   This, I don't want to speculate on.  I can't remember that we

 6     investigated traces on the wall.

 7        Q.   You said in the Milosevic case, 3498, page 3498 - it's not in

 8     front of me - you said that you did not investigate the condition of the

 9     wall.

10             Can we now look at 1D2691, please, and the parties can look at

11     that page.  And can we have 1D2691.

12             Are you asserting that this was a civilian zone, without military

13     targets?

14        A.   Where the projectile impacted, I went -- from my investigation at

15     the spot, I couldn't see any military compounds or -- but, of course, I

16     didn't investigate all the area around.  So up to my knowledge, I didn't

17     see any military positions at the spot.

18        Q.   Thank you.  This is a combat report, dated 30th of June, i.e.,

19     eight days after the incident, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

20     1st Corps Command.

21             Can we now have page 2.

22             The second paragraph, "State of Security," it reads:

23             "On the 29th of June, 1995, from the debris of the building on

24     5 Cetinjska Street that had previously been hit by a modified air-bomb, a

25     dead body of a member of the 142nd Croatian Light Brigade, Slavko Lovric,

Page 8738

 1     was extracted."

 2             Do you agree that Cetinjska and Geteova Streets were actually

 3     one-and-the-same street?

 4             I would direct the parties to look at Table G-6, in which

 5     Geteova Street is marked as "Cetinjska Street" in the summary.

 6             Did you know that seven days after the explosion we mentioned

 7     before, a body of a killed soldier was pulled out?

 8        A.   First, I don't know the name of the streets.  And I don't know

 9     that -- what's stated here, that a body was taken out eight days after

10     the 22nd of June.  I have no knowledge about that.

11        Q.   Would you accept now that there was something of a military

12     nature there?

13        A.   That would only be speculations, and I don't know.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you deal with the incident on Zadarska Street,

15     which took place on the 1st of July, 1995?

16             But before that, can we have this document admitted into

17     evidence?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't think the witness has added

20     anything to this document, and it's -- and for that reason, I would

21     object.

22             JUDGE KWON:  There's no basis, Mr. Karadzic, to admit this.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document directly disputes the

24     fact that this was a civilian zone, and this document was produced by the

25     Muslim Army.  How can I challenge this witness if I'm not able to

Page 8739

 1     challenge this same subject?  And this document does that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you put your question to the witness,

 3     who denied -- who couldn't confirm what you are saying, but you have

 4     ample opportunity to tender this document.  It's purely a waste of time.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did you deal with the incident -- Your Excellency, I truly and

 7     really need another 15 minutes.

 8             Did you deal with the incident on Zadarska Street?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, how much would you need for

10     your redirect, Ms. Sutherland?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Five to ten minutes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll break for 10 minutes now, and so we'll resume

13     at quarter to 1:00.  Then you will have 10 minutes to conclude your

14     cross-examination, and the Prosecution will have 5 minutes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we are going to take a break,

16     why can't I be given more time, let's say half an hour?

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, we can't go longer than one hour for the morning

18     of today.

19             We'll have a break for 10 minutes now.  We'll resume at quarter

20     to 1.00.

21                           --- Break taken at 12.35 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   So do you remember the Zadarska Street incident of the 1st of

Page 8740

 1     July, 1995?

 2        A.   Yes, I was investigating this incident.

 3        Q.   You reached a conclusion regarding the direction from which the

 4     shot came, but you didn't establish the distance; is that right?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And you concluded that it might have come six or

 7     seven kilometres from the point of impact, from the direction

 8     north/north-east; is that correct?

 9        A.   That's not correct.  I concluded that the direction was from

10     north/north-east, but not the distance.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So no conclusion could have been reached about the

12     distance.  Thank you.

13             Do you remember the Marko Oreskovic Street incident which took

14     place on the 18th of June, 1995?

15        A.   I was not investigating any incident the 18th of June, as far as

16     I remember, no.

17        Q.   But the previous one on Zadarska Street was not the incident

18     mentioned in your diary; is that correct?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, I don't know what was in my private

20     diary, but I think I didn't mention either the -- no, I didn't mention

21     the Zadarska Street, no.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can we now have 65 ter 14731.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   While we are waiting:  Mr. Brennskag, you testified about the

Page 8741

 1     incident on Marko Oreskovic Street of the 18th of June, 1995, and you

 2     concluded that - and that was in your testimony in the Perisic case on

 3     the 9th of February, 2009, on page 3375 - that there was fighting going

 4     on, that there were several explosions, and that it was impossible for

 5     you to conclude the origin of the shell; is that correct?

 6        A.   I don't remember if I testified about the incident on

 7     Marko Oreskovic Street on the 18th of June.  For sure, I did not

 8     investigate it.  Then, there was a lot of firing going on in that area,

 9     yes, and sometimes it was not possible to conclude the origin of shells.

10     But we have to go -- then go to the reports from UN OPs to be correct --

11     from UN HQ -- UN Observer HQ.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So it was 1146.  This is what you testified on

13     page 3375 on the 19th of February, 1113, then 1149, 1250, 1305.  So there

14     were a lot of shells, and that was a proper fighting; is that correct?

15        A.   I'm sorry, I don't have these pages in front of me.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I had time, I would like to call

17     up 8186 to show you that that was a report produced by your service, but

18     I don't have the time.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  8186 is P1860.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

21             Since it's in evidence, can we then look at the next page in your

22     diary.

23             I'm going to read it.

24             [In English] "In order for an UNMO unit to be able to function

25     according to its mandate, there must, in my view, be a definite

Page 8742

 1     cease-fire arrangement in place between the conflicting parties."

 2             [Interpretation] So it's paragraph 4, first sentence.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is that your position?

 5        A.   Yes.  In my view, to do a good job as UN observers, yes, but I

 6     say "in my view."

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And the last sentence:

 8             [In English] "On top of that, in certain situations I had the

 9     feeling that the neutral party was not always that neutral."

10             [Interpretation] Is that correct?

11        A.   It's written like this, but I can't confirm it.  I have no exact

12     information about it.  It's my thoughts in my private writings.  That's

13     open for the Court.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 10.

15             Page 10:

16             [In English] "I begin to perceive that some of my fellow

17     observers from certain NATO countries are engaged in a completely

18     different assignment to the one which was envisaged.  Trust in the

19     observers is beginning to crumble."

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Was that your position and your feeling at the time?

22        A.   That was my feeling at that time, and it's not -- I'm not able to

23     verify it.  But it's written like this in my open diary, yes.

24        Q.   You see where it says:

25             "On the 15th of June --"

Page 8743

 1             [In English] "June 15th, the BH starts an offensive to break the

 2     siege of Sarajevo.  The offensive gradually peters out, and the BSA

 3     intensifies its bombardment of Sarajevo and other so-called safe areas."

 4             [Interpretation] Would you be surprised if I showed you, if I had

 5     time, the consumption of artillery and ammunition and explosions by the

 6     Muslim Army?  They used 1.000, 2.000 and 3.000 more rounds than the

 7     Serbian Army.  Would you accept this as a possible assertion that the

 8     Muslim side actually fired many more projectiles than --

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, this is calling for the witness to

10     speculate.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 12.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, was it possible that there was some firing from

15     the Muslim side that you failed to register?

16        A.   I think I talked about it earlier, but of course it's possible

17     that we missed the fire -- some firing from both sides.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please focus now on the end of the first

19     paragraph:

20             [In English] "Immediately after NATO carries out extensive

21     air-strikes against strategic targets in Bosnian Serb areas, I stand as a

22     spectator in the old town and watch as the planes come in and drop their

23     bomb loads around Sarajevo.  At last, the international community has

24     shown that it is serious about something it has said.  At last,

25     Sarajevo's pain will soon be over.  In truth, it was a peace that was

Page 8744

 1     dearly bought."

 2             [Interpretation] So you accuse others of being biased, but it

 3     seems that you, yourself, were, to a certain extent, against the Serbian

 4     side?

 5        A.   No, it's not written like this.  It's written, what is stated,

 6     when it happened, when the NATO started their bombardment.  So no to your

 7     question, it was not against the Serbian side, no.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Brennskag.

 9             I take it that was your last question.

10             Ms. Sutherland --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have to say I'm not happy

12     with the time allocated to me.  I did not ask enough questions of this

13     witness, and I would like to state this for the record.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll not repeat what we said.  It is for you, how

15     to plan your cross-examination.

16             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was going to say while we have this document

18     on the screen, if we could just go to page 10.

19                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

20        Q.   Mr. Brennskag, it was put to you at page 64 and a little earlier

21     today that you didn't note specifically, in your personal notes,

22     reference to the incidents that you investigated on the 22nd of June,

23     1995, and the 1st of July, 1995.  In your personal notes, though, did you

24     put, in general terms, the tasks that you were to undertake as a UN

25     military observer?

Page 8745

 1        A.   No, this is not a formal document, and most of the tasks were not

 2     taken in this document because this I remember by my heart.  This is just

 3     a document to know a little bit more what happened around me at that

 4     time, because when I was there at the spot in June/July, we didn't know

 5     that much what happened around us, in the big view.

 6        Q.   If we take a look at the second paragraph on top of page 10, it

 7     states there that you did follow-up investigations of bombing, and

 8     "injuries and deaths as a result of bombardments in Sarajevo are

 9     traumatic and wear down every member of the team."  So that was the

10     extent of what you put in your personal diary.  Did you tell the Office

11     of the Prosecutor, though, when you were interviewed in May 1996, about

12     these two incidents?

13        A.   In 1996, yes.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

15             If I can turn now to another topic.  If I could have Exhibit D853

16     on the screen.  This is the special report written by Captain Hansen.

17     And if we could go to the last page.  Sorry, second-to-last page.  It

18     says there:

19             "The UNMO team that normally man OP 4 that looks into the area

20     was taking cover in the shelter because of shelling at the time of the

21     incident, so no information is available from the OP."

22        Q.   Was there a shelter within OP 4 that you went to on that day, on

23     the 28th of June, 1995, when you witnessed the modified air-bomb from

24     Ilidza hitting the TV building?

25        A.   The building we had at OP 4 was a civilian accommodation, a

Page 8746

 1     house, and there were no built-up shelters, as that, in the house.  But

 2     the house had a basement that were normally used by those who lived

 3     there.  It was a couple.  When it was tense, they lived in the basement.

 4     I was there once or twice to visit them, to talk to them, socialise, but

 5     I was never in that basement to take cover, myself.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you very much.

 7             I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 9             Thank you, Mr. Brennskag.  That concludes your evidence.  Thank

10     you for coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that we need to start the afternoon

13     session at 2.30 so that the Registry could have some time to check the

14     effectiveness of the videolink.

15             And is there anything -- there's one matter I'd like to deal with

16     now, which relates to the modification of protective measurements as

17     regards KDZ477 and 485.  We dealt with Miokovic.

18             So in the absence of the consent of the witness, a variation of

19     protective measures can only be ordered in exceptional circumstances.

20     According to the Prosecution responses, both of the witnesses have not

21     agreed to any variation of their protective measures.

22             Having considered the reason provided by the witnesses, the

23     Chamber finds there are no exceptional circumstances which would

24     testify -- which, I'm sorry, would justify modification of the protective

25     measures granted by the earlier Chambers.  I also consulted the Judges

Page 8747

 1     related to the earlier cases, who were all in agreement with this

 2     decision.  Therefore, the motion is therefore denied.

 3             So we will resume with the videolink at 2.30.

 4                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.09 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             Good afternoon, Madam Mujanovic.  Thank you for appearing before

 8     the Tribunal.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

10             JUDGE KWON:  If you could kindly take the solemn declaration,

11     please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean aloud?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Unfortunately, we were not able to hear you.  Could

14     you read that aloud?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm asking:  Am I to read it aloud?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  FAHRA MUJANOVIC

20                           [Witness testified via videolink]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Mujanovic.

23             You will be asked some questions by the Prosecution, and

24     afterwards by the accused, Mr. Karadzic.

25             Ms. Sutherland.

Page 8748

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Mujanovic.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   As we discussed on the telephone the other day, can you please

 6     let the Presiding Judge know at any time if you need to have a break.  Do

 7     you understand?

 8        A.   All right.

 9        Q.   Could you please state your full name.

10        A.   Fahra Mujanovic.

11        Q.   You gave a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in November

12     2008; is that correct?

13        A.   It is.

14        Q.   You've had an opportunity to review this statement; is that

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Registrar, could 65 ter 22567 be put on the

18     screen, please.

19        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, that statement that you see in front of you, do

20     you recognise that as the statement that was taken from you on the 5th of

21     November, 2008?

22             Mr. Registrar, it's behind tab 22567.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Does that statement accurately reflect what you said at that

25     time?

Page 8749

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   If you were examined in court today on the same matters contained

 3     in that statement, would you provide the same information to the Court in

 4     response to questions about those matters?

 5        A.   I would.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender for admission 65 ter

 7     22567, the statement.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             That will be admitted into evidence.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1865, Your Honours.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And with the Court's permission, I'll read a

12     short summary of the evidence contained in the statement.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The witness lived with her husband and children

15     in the Barica settlement, which is located in a valley between the

16     elevations of Zuc and Poljine, to the north of the city of Sarajevo.

17             From early April 1992, the Barica settlement was subjected to

18     shelling and sniping coming from the Bosnian Serb military positions

19     which had been established on the hills and commanding positions around

20     the settlement, from Zuc, Krivoglavci, Kromolj, Vogosca, Poljine and

21     Tihovici.

22             The witness learnt that some of the shell fire was from weapons

23     known as a Praga, a three-barrelled anti-aircraft machine-gun, and a

24     multiple rocket-launcher known as VBR.

25             Mrs. Mujanovic left the family house for around 20 days or so

Page 8750

 1     because of the shelling, but had to return to Barica due to over-crowding

 2     in the house she and her family had sought refuge.  On their return to

 3     Barica, the shelling and sniping continued.

 4             On the 8th of June, 1992, Mrs. Mujanovic was injured at her

 5     residential home in Barica by shrapnel from an 88-millimetre mortar shell

 6     when it exploded between her house and her neighbour's house.  No one

 7     came to her assistance immediately because the shelling continued and

 8     people were afraid to approach her in case they were hit.  The witness

 9     was driven to the Kosevo Hospital, where she was admitted and operated

10     on.  However, many pieces of shrapnel were not removed from her body.

11     She was hospitalised for a period of 12 days.

12             The day that Mrs. Mujanovic was wounded and hospitalised, there

13     were about 150 other persons wounded because of shelling that occurred

14     throughout Sarajevo.

15             Mrs. Mujanovic describes the trauma suffered as a result of the

16     shelling and sniping, and the physical and psychological effects upon

17     her.

18             That concludes the brief summary of the witness's written

19     evidence.

20        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, I want to ask you just a few questions now.

21             How far is the settlement of Barica from Sarajevo, as the crow

22     flies?

23        A.   It's not much.  I wouldn't know how far.  I'm not good at that

24     sort of reckoning.  It's not far.

25        Q.   Are you able to estimate approximately how many kilometres?

Page 8751

 1        A.   Two or three kilometres.  I'm not sure.  If you go on foot, it's

 2     about 20 minutes, maybe even less.

 3        Q.   And is the settlement a residential one?

 4        A.   You mean in the town?

 5        Q.   Yes.  What was the settlement made up of, predominantly?  Was it

 6     a residential settlement?

 7        A.   It's a residential neighbourhood where I lived.  There's nothing

 8     but residences, civilian houses.

 9        Q.   In paragraphs 7 and 8 of Exhibit P1865, which is your statement

10     now in evidence, you state that from the early part of 1992, the area

11     where you resided was subject to shelling and sniping.  What was the

12     intensity of the shelling?

13        A.   Well, sometimes in one day, more than a thousand shells would

14     fall on the neighbourhood and around it.

15        Q.   You stated, in paragraph 6, that the shelling and sniping

16     occurred from the positions on the hills and around the settlement, and

17     those were the places that I just read out in the summary of your

18     evidence:  Zuc, Krivoglavci - I'm sorry for my translation - Kromolj,

19     Vogosca, Poljine --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   -- Tihovici?

22        A.   Yes, that's correct.

23        Q.   You state that they were held by Bosnian Serb forces.  How do you

24     know this?

25        A.   Because the civilian population had been driven out of that.

Page 8752

 1     Only they remained there, and that's where the fire onto our

 2     neighbourhood came from.

 3        Q.   When you say "only they remained there," can you specify

 4     particularly who you were talking about?

 5        A.   The Muslim population was driven out of there, but many were

 6     killed as well.

 7        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, a moment ago you said "only they remained there."

 8     Can you specify exactly who you mean by "they"?

 9        A.   I can't hear anything.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Mujanovic, do you hear me now?

11             The Registrar will take a look into the matter.

12             Mrs. Mujanovic, do you hear me now?

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I'll call to the technician and

14     have him come in and fix this.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I take it now you are able to follow me.

16             Mrs. Mujanovic, do you hear me?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear a thing.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] No, obviously she's still having

19     problems hearing you.  I'll call the technician and have him fix the

20     problem.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, would you like to deal with some

23     small matters while we're waiting?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mrs. Mujanovic, do you hear me?

25             While the technicians will take a look into the matter, we will

Page 8753

 1     deal with some administrative matters.

 2             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             I spoke with Dr. Karadzic and other members of our team, and

 5     we're now in a position to agree to hear the testimony of Witness KDZ485

 6     on Wednesday.  So we'll do our best.  But it's difficult for us, but

 7     under the circumstances, we're willing to make the best effort we can to

 8     accommodate that witness.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your co-operation.

10             And you must have heard by now that three hours and a half --

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we received --

12             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honour, the technician is on

13     the way.  He should be here in a minute to fix the problem.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  We didn't -- I don't believe Dr. Karadzic has

16     received that yet, but I did receive an e-mail indicating that the

17     Chamber has allocated three and a half hours for his cross-examination.

18     I don't know whether that will be enough, but at least if he starts on

19     Wednesday, we can make accommodations to hear him for longer and before

20     the end of the week, if necessary.

21             Also, Mr. President, just to let you know, we don't oppose the

22     Prosecution's motion filed today concerning leave to reply for the

23     judicial notice of intercepts.  We won't be filing any written response

24     to that motion.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I saw that.

Page 8754

 1             That is granted, Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  And also, Mr. President, we would ask that the

 3     Chamber and the Prosecution try to quickly resolve the issue of the

 4     witness Charles Kirudja, who is scheduled to be heard during the third

 5     week of November and who we strenuously object to hearing out of order.

 6     So that if it's necessary that he's going to testify, then we can at

 7     least start whatever inadequate preparations we're going to able to make.

 8     But we would really appreciate it if the Chamber and the Prosecutor would

 9     not burden us with that job.

10             Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll consider the matter.

12             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  I believe we should be able to file our response no

14     later than tomorrow.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] it should be okay now.  Can you

17     tell the Trial Chamber that it should be okay now, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mrs. Mujanovic, do you hear me now?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Great.  Ms. Sutherland from the Prosecution will

21     continue to ask more questions.

22             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, a moment ago you said that Muslims were driven

25     out of the areas that you mentioned, and you said that "they remained

Page 8755

 1     there."  Who, in particular, are you referring to when you say "they"?

 2        A.   The Serbs remained there, and the Muslim people were driven out.

 3        Q.   So do I understand you well to say that you were not able to

 4     physically go to these positions where you saw the shells being fired

 5     from?

 6        A.   Never.  We didn't dare to walk around our own houses, let alone

 7     go there --

 8        Q.   What weapons did you see, in particular?

 9        A.   I saw a tank at Tihovici, in the middle of a field.

10        Q.   Did you witness any mortar and sniper fire coming from any other

11     directions?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Do you know the Pretis factory in Vogosca?

14        A.   I know, I know that.  And from there, too, they fired upon our

15     neighbourhood.  It's close to me.

16        Q.   When you say "fired upon," do you mean with shells, or sniper

17     fire, or both?

18        A.   Both, both.

19        Q.   You mentioned in your statement the Praga three-barrel

20     anti-aircraft machine-gun and a multiple rocket-launcher known as the

21     VBR.  How did you know the names of these weapons?

22        A.   Those who served in the army told me.  I have no experience with

23     it, myself, but that's what they said.  And I know they sang that song,

24     "Listen, Alija, how we're firing our Pragas.  Not a stone upon stone will

25     remain from you."

Page 8756

 1        Q.   Who was singing these songs?

 2        A.   The Serbs, of course.  You don't think it's the Muslims, do you?

 3        Q.   Where did you hear these songs being sung?

 4        A.   They sang that often, even before the war.  I heard it on a bus

 5     when I travelled from Cajnice to Sarajevo, when I was visiting my father

 6     at the hospital in Foca -- in Fojnica, sorry.

 7        Q.   You were injured by a shell on or about the 8th of June, 1992.

 8     On the days preceding the day on which you were injured, what was the

 9     level of intensity of shelling on those days?

10        A.   Well, the sniper fired at all times of the day, and the shells

11     were landing also all the time there; day-time, night-time, it didn't

12     matter.  At any hour.

13        Q.   Now, you estimated your village was approximately two or three

14     kilometres away from Sarajevo.  What, if anything, did you hear during

15     these days from Sarajevo?

16        A.   I did.

17        Q.   What did you hear?

18        A.   I heard shells falling around the town.

19        Q.   You mentioned in your statement that approximately 150 people

20     were being treated when you were admitted to the hospital on the night --

21     or between the 8th and 9th of June, 1992.  Do you know for what types of

22     injuries these people were being treated for?

23        A.   Those were all wounded people, people with major injuries,

24     horrible.

25        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, what psychological or physical injuries do you

Page 8757

 1     suffer from as a result of the shelling and sniping you have described

 2     earlier?  If you can describe for the Court, please.

 3        A.   Well, I'm suffering mentally and physically.  I'm not well at

 4     all.  I have all these ticks and traumas from way back then.  And when I

 5     sleep, I still feel like a shell is falling nearby.  And when I dream,

 6     it's always in my dreams.  I don't know.  One has to live with it.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you very much, Mrs. Mujanovic.  I have no

 8     further questions.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

10             Ms. Mujanovic, now you'll be asked -- cross-examined by the

11     accused, Mr. Karadzic.

12             Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Mujanovic.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   I regret that you had to live through that, and I will try to be

19     brief, as brief as possible.

20             You know what is located in your neighbourhood, don't you?  Do

21     you know whether Ugorsko is far away from you?

22        A.   It isn't.

23        Q.   Who populates Ugorsko, predominantly?

24        A.   Well, mostly Muslims, but there were Serbs and Croats close to

25     Pretis.

Page 8758

 1        Q.   And the part of Ugorsko that was populated by Muslims, that was

 2     under the control of the Muslim Army; right?

 3        A.   A part of it.

 4        Q.   What about Barica; who is the dominant ethnic group populating

 5     it?

 6        A.   It's mixed.  There was Serbs living near where I lived.  They

 7     never left.  They still live there to this day, and they were driven out

 8     just like our people.

 9        Q.   And who is the dominant ethnic group in Barica?

10        A.   I can't hear.

11        Q.   Is it true that the Muslims had a significant majority in Barica?

12             [In English] She doesn't hear.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mrs. Mujanovic, do you follow us?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear.  Poorly.

15             JUDGE KWON:  If the Court Deputy in Sarajevo could turn up the

16     volume.

17             Do you hear me now again?  I hope that you now hear us better.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear well.

19             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] [Indiscernible]

20             JUDGE KWON:  I note a failure on the part of the transcript as

21     well.

22             Shall we break for 10 minutes.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder whether the Court Deputy in Sarajevo could

25     hear us.  If you can advise Mrs. Mujanovic that we'll have a break for 10

Page 8759

 1     minutes to look into the technical matters.

 2             We'll rise now.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 3.02 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 3.13 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies, Mrs. Mujanovic, for your

 6     inconvenience.  I take it now you are able to hear us.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

11                           [French interpretation on English channel]

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   ... your attention for a moment to make things easier --

14                           [French interpretation on English channel]

15             JUDGE KWON:  The French translation is over-riding.

16             Yes, please -- does he have to repeat the question?  Because we

17     are not following the transcript, I'm not sure whether the court reporter

18     got that.  But just in case, could you repeat your question,

19     Mr. Karadzic?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

21        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, in order to speed up this, I would like to put to

22     you something about the position of these settlements, and you can tell

23     me if that is correct or incorrect.  I'm reading from the 1991 census.

24     There were 2.042 Muslims and 800 Serbs in --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  In a settlement the interpreters didn't hear.

Page 8760

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't count and I don't know.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   But do you agree that it was a predominantly Muslim settlement?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer this question:  The interpreters

 5     here in The Hague were not able to hear your previous answer.  And, Madam

 6     Mujanovic, because Mr. Karadzic's question and your answer should be

 7     translated so that -- interpreted so that we can follow, please put a

 8     pause between the question and your answer.

 9             So could you repeat your previous answer?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't count the inhabitants.  I

11     know that the population was mixed, but I don't know how many were of

12     each group.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is there a church or a mosque in Hotonj?

15        A.   At the time when you were in power, they didn't have them.  Now,

16     they do.

17        Q.   Who had Kobilja Glava under their control?

18        A.   Kobilja Glava was under our control, and you held the area up

19     there, Orahov Brijeg, and the rest.

20        Q.   And who had Hotonj under their control?

21        A.   I don't know.  You did, for the most part, but I don't know.  I

22     wasn't really there.  I don't know who held which area, nor am I

23     interested in that.

24        Q.   With all due respect, Mrs. Mujanovic, you said some important

25     things, both in your statement and in your evidence today, that we need

Page 8761

 1     to portray here in an objective light so that we know what it is that you

 2     are saying based on your knowledge and what is the impression that you

 3     gained from the newspapers or from propaganda or elsewhere.

 4             Do you agree that Kobilja Glava had 2.756 Muslims and only 46

 5     Serbs?

 6        A.   I don't know.  To tell you the truth, I don't know.  In the old

 7     days, we had brotherhood and unity.  Nobody paid attention to who was a

 8     Muslim and who was a Serb, as long as they were human beings.

 9        Q.   I fully agree with you.  And it would have been better if it had

10     remained that way, but it didn't.  It's different now.

11             Now, would you agree with me that in Vogosca, the Muslim

12     settlements were under the Muslim control and the Serb settlements were

13     under the Serb control?  As for Hotonj, Kobilja Glava, Ugorsko, and

14     similar settlements, they were controlled by Muslims, whereas the Serbs

15     controlled Blagovac, Poljine, Krivoglavci, and so on; is that true?

16        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did Barica have their own unit of Green Berets and

18     Patriotic League?

19        A.   No.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not sure what the witness

21     answered.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Did the Muslim Army gather in Barica before the attack, and did

24     they return to Barica following their attacks?

25        A.   I don't know.  I'm not aware of that.

Page 8762

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 2             Mrs. Mujanovic, could you repeat your answer to the question

 3     whether there was Green Beret in Barica?  The interpreters couldn't hear

 4     you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Who would come up with

 6     such an idea?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   During the war, was there any army permanently stationed in the

11     Barica area?

12        A.   I know that there were our civilians living there.  That's all I

13     know.

14        Q.   You said, in your supplemental statement of 13th October, that

15     you were quite afraid because you lived close to the separation line; is

16     that true?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And who was separated there?  Which armies were separated there?

19        A.   It wasn't the armies that were separated, but the residents fled

20     from Vogosca, and they came, saying that Serbs were killing, raping,

21     snatching everything that was there.  I was afraid for my safety and the

22     safety of my children, so I fled to Sip, to my sister-in-law's.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any Serb trenches there, near Barica?

24        A.   I, personally, didn't go there to see, but I know about that.

25        Q.   Between your village and the Serb trenches, were there any Muslim

Page 8763

 1     trenches?

 2        A.   I don't know that either.

 3        Q.   You said that for a while in April, you went away to get away

 4     from the combat; right?  So you were not driven out; you went away

 5     yourself?

 6        A.   I went away out of fear, because I was afraid that the Serb Army

 7     would come along, and God knows what would happen.  People came from

 8     Vogosca, telling us about what had happened in Vogosca, and Vogosca is

 9     not far away from us.

10        Q.   Very well, thank you.  I will now ask you to look at a map and to

11     specify where your village is located and what can be found in your

12     village and around it.

13             Could we see P1058, please.  P1058.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether the witness is able to see the

15     map through e-court or she should see the map on hard copy.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think it can be seen on the

17     screen.  We need to zoom into the area above the 11th Vitez Mountain

18     Brigade, "11 BB," et cetera.  We need to zoom in quite substantially.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mrs. Mujanovic, do you see a map in front of you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be zoomed in further.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, do you see where it says "Barica"?  It says

24     "3 BB," and then there's a triangle flag, and then it says "Barica.  Do

25     you see that?

Page 8764

 1        A.   I don't.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could Mr. Karadzic advise what the date of this

 4     map is, please?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The date is much later, but the

 6     lines did not change from the beginning of the war until the end, except

 7     for the Zuc Hill, where we lost some territory.  But in Barica, in this

 8     area, the lines didn't move.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I have difficulty following your point, putting this

10     kind of map to Mrs. Mujanovic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, in the statement

12     of this witness, it says that it was a civilian settlement and that the

13     Serbs fired for no reason.  Based on some documents, I will show you that

14     it's quite the contrary, but just to establish, Hotonj and Barica had

15     staff headquarters, and there were mortars, rocket units, and recoilless

16     guns all around.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Put that question to the witness.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, on this map - I hope the Court Officer can help

20     you - we can see where it says "Hotonj" and "Barica."  We can see two

21     flags there, number 2 and number 3, which stands for the 2nd and for the

22     3rd Battalion.  Do you maintain your position that there was no army in

23     your vicinity?

24        A.   I maintain that there were only civilian inhabitants there.

25        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, do you see this line, dotted line, a blue one and

Page 8765

 1     a red one, running near Hotonj?  Is this where the separation lines were?

 2        A.   I really don't know much about this.

 3        Q.   I fully understand you, but I don't understand, then, why they

 4     selected you to testify about military matters.  There were troops there,

 5     there were rocket units, mortars.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  She is testifying as a victim of a shelling

 7     incident.  She's not a member of the military unit at all.  Are you

 8     challenging that she was injured by a shelling incident?  Then put that

 9     question to the witness.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I'm challenging -- Mrs. Mujanovic, I'm challenging the fact that

12     you were wounded in a Serb attack on a civilian settlement.  I put to you

13     that you were wounded because you went out with a child in front of the

14     house on the morning when a large Muslim offensive started against Serb

15     positions, Poljine, Kromolj, and all other Serb positions.  Is that true?

16        A.   Mr. Karadzic, shame on you.  You know that shells landed in our

17     settlement, on civilian residents, every day.  You know that Muslims did

18     not have any heavy weaponry.  You know, yourself, that should a war erupt

19     in Bosnia, the Muslim people would not be able to defend themselves.

20     Shame on you.

21             I'm a civilian.  I was never in the military.  I was wounded in

22     front of my own house, on my own hearth.

23        Q.   Very well.  That morning, early in the morning, before you went

24     out, did a large Muslim offensive against Serb positions, against Poljine

25     and the Serb part of Vogosca, start?

Page 8766

 1        A.   No, it didn't.

 2        Q.   Very well.  We won't deal with that any more.

 3             Now let me put another question to you, Mrs. Mujanovic.  From the

 4     beginning of the war, from the beginning of April, Green Berets attacked

 5     the Pretis factory in Vogosca, including Barica; is that correct?

 6        A.   No, it isn't.  It isn't, certainly.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Could we now -- we don't need this map anymore.  It wasn't of

 9     much use, except that I ask all participants to look at this map to see

10     what it looks like.

11             Could we now see 1D2698, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Here, Mrs. Mujanovic, is a report from the Ministry of the

14     Interior of the Serbian Republic, Police Station Ilidza, and it says here

15     that a certain Jovan, which is Jovan Divjak, just after transferring from

16     the JNA to the Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, called upon

17     the citizens of Vogosca and the guards of Pretis to defend the

18     installations of Pretis from what was said to be an attack of the Serbian

19     forces from the direction of Ilijas.  The said appeal, according to the

20     source, served as a smoke-screen for an action by the Green Berets

21     because it -- because soon afterwards, from the direction of Sarajevo,

22     five trucks arrived at Pretis, including one that the Green Berets had

23     filled with certain equipment, and the others never arrived because, in

24     the meantime, these forces of the Serbian Territorial Defence from

25     Vogosca were activated and skirmished with the Green Berets.

Page 8767

 1             Do you know that there was an attack on Pretis by the Muslim

 2     forces on the 11th of April?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we adopt this document?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see a basis to admit this, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was waiting because someone else

 7     was speaking.

 8             Can we get 1D2696.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I'll just tell you what this is, Mrs. Mujanovic.  This is from a

11     time when the JNA were still in Sarajevo, and this is a letter addressed

12     to Alija Izetbegovic by the Command of the 2nd Military District.  And in

13     the first sentence, General Kukanjac informs President Izetbegovic as

14     follows:

15             "In the night between the 17th and 18th of April, 1992, your

16     Green Berets carried out an attack on a part of the factory at Vogosca

17     (Pretis, special purpose that is military industry).  You are aware of

18     the outcome of that attack."

19             Do you now feel convinced that an attack took place?

20        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I would very much appreciate it if you didn't ask

21     me such questions.  I'm a civilian.  I was never involved in anything

22     military or strategic of the kind that you ask me about.  I sat at home.

23     I was wounded while at home.  I really don't know any of these things and

24     I'm not interested in them.  You should ask someone else about that.  I

25     know nothing about these attacks, and I have really no answer.  I was not

Page 8768

 1     a soldier.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   Thank you, but I ask you for some understanding and patience.

 3     You were invited here to testify to the effect that Serbs attacked a

 4     civilian neighbourhood, whereas I am saying that Barica was a source of

 5     constant attacks on the military installations in Vogosca and the

 6     surrounding Serbian neighbourhoods.  And because you were asked to

 7     testify to that position, the Defence has to question that and to put its

 8     case that Barica was not a civilian neighbourhood, that it was full of

 9     army troops, and that somebody turned Barica into a military target, and

10     that was done by your army.

11        A.   Anyone could pass freely through Barica without being stopped by

12     anyone.  You could have passed through without being intercepted, without

13     being checked.  All I know is a civilian population was there.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Did the witness say anything about this document,

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this document eminently

18     refutes everything the witness is saying.  What am I supposed to do when

19     a witness like this is brought?  And it's true that she was wounded.

20     Everything else is not true.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying what I know.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             Yes, Mrs. Mujanovic, what did you say?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am saying only what I know.  Let

25     me ask me -- let him ask me about things that I know.  I have nothing to

Page 8769

 1     say about things I'm not aware of.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you put your case to the witness.  And

 3     then you'll have another opportunity to tender this document, which may

 4     be admitted, and then all the credibility issues will be raised later on

 5     and assessed by the Chamber.  You don't have to put each and every

 6     document, item, to the witness.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mrs. Mujanovic, then I have to take up matters that you've said

 9     and to contest them.

10             You never mentioned before that Serbs had expelled the Muslims

11     from wherever.  Why are you saying this for the first time now?

12        A.   Well, nobody asked me before, but I know that because I also had

13     to leave my home, out of fear, from hearing all the stories of the

14     refugees who are fleeing from thugs carrying guns and knives.  All sorts

15     of people passed through, people who were beaten up and wounded.  They

16     passed by my door.  I opened my door to them, and I had to give them food

17     and help, and eventually I left my home too.

18        Q.   To whom did you give food and water?  Those were your fighting

19     men?

20        A.   They were not fighting men.  There were civilians; women,

21     children, men, from Vogosca, people who were running.

22        Q.   Was a Muslim ever driven out of Poljine?

23        A.   I'm sorry, I never went to Poljine.  Until the war began, I

24     didn't even know about the existence of Zuc and Poljine.  I only learned

25     about them when the shells started falling.

Page 8770

 1        Q.   One hundred and forty-one Serbs lived in Poljine, and ten

 2     Muslims.  Was it then a predominantly Serb village?

 3        A.   I don't know that either.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I now ask for 65 ter 11701.  I

 5     believe it has a P number.  Page 86.  This is from a very well-known

 6     witness, Mr. Robert Donia.  Page 86.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You said that Muslims had only hunting weapons, didn't you?

 9        A.   Yes, that's precisely how it was.

10        Q.   Here is what Robert Donia says, who is pro-Muslim:

11             "The ARBiH Army launched another offensive on 8 June 1992, aiming

12     to take four key hilltops within the city:  Zuc, north of the Proletarian

13     Brigade thoroughfare in the Serb-proclaimed Rajlovac municipality;

14     Mojmilo and Vrace ..."

15             Et cetera, et cetera.  Do you now believe me there was a major

16     offensive on the 8th of June?

17        A.   On the 8th of June, I was wounded, and I was taken to hospital.

18     That was between the 8th and the 9th of June.  I don't remember anything.

19        Q.   So now you allow the possibility there was a major Muslim

20     offensive?

21        A.   There was a Serb attack on Barica.  We were fired at from all

22     possible weapons.  Suljo Skoro [phoen] was wounded then, and many people

23     were injured and there was no one to help us.  I was wounded, myself,

24     then and then I was taken to hospital, and I don't recall anything

25     further.

Page 8771

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D2322.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that Donia document is not in

 3     evidence.  I should stand corrected if I'm wrong.

 4             Ms. Sutherland, could you take a look.

 5             Yes, please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not in evidence, then I

 7     would tender page 86.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that page will be admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D855, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Mrs. Mujanovic, let me put this document to you.

12     This is a report from the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to the Main Staff of

13     the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it was

14     called then.  For your benefit and for other participants who need the

15     interpretation, let me read it.

16             This is from the 8th of June, 1992.  Paragraph 1:

17             "In the course of the day, the enemy developed offensive

18     operations -- launched offensive operations from the city towards the

19     outskirts.  Particular pressure was exerted on the following axes:

20     Kobilja Glava Zuc, Boljakov Potok Zuc and Han Zuc.  The enemy managed to

21     get control of the line north-east of Rajlovac; Brijesko Brdo,

22     Smiljevici, Ugljesici.  The attack was stopped.  In the afternoon, the

23     attack was carried out also from the direction of Nahorevo towards the

24     Pionirska Dolina and Betanija.  The enemy managed to cut through the road

25     at Trebevic in the sector of the Trvi Sumar [phoen].  The attacks on all

Page 8772

 1     other parts of the front-line were unsuccessful.  Artillery and mortar

 2     fire was directed at Vraca and Vojkovici, Nedzarici, Ilidza, Rajlovac,

 3     and VP KAG.  We expect a strong attack at the airport in the course of

 4     the night.

 5             "Successful defence is being put up by the forces in the sector

 6     of Vraca, Grbavica, Nedzarici, Ilidza, Hadzici, Rakovica and Ilijas.  In

 7     the course of the day, we had eight dead and sixty-two injured.  Two

 8     tanks and five APCs are damaged."

 9             And finally:

10             "Request:  We ask for reinforcement, including officers and air

11     support, on Mojmilo Brdo ..."

12             Et cetera.

13             Do you agree that a civilian population cannot cause such damage

14     and put up such resistance?

15        A.   Why are you asking me these things, Mr. Karadzic?  I was at the

16     hospital and I don't remember any of these things.  I was wounded on the

17     8th of June.  I was first at hospital and then at home.

18        Q.   I'm sorry about that.  I told you that already.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you heard from us so many times.

20     Reading out the documents, which the witness cannot confirm, it's just a

21     waste of time.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

23        Q.   Could you then look at your statement, para 6.  It's your

24     statement dated 5 November 2008.  I hope it's available over there in the

25     Serbian language.

Page 8773

 1             You're probably not going to admit this, this report of the 8th

 2     of June.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Not this time, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you see, in para 6, where you enumerate some places; Zuc,

 6     Krivoglavci, Kromolj, Vogosca, Poljine and Tihovici?  You mentioned these

 7     names; right?

 8        A.   Yes, but Blagovac and Sucura houses, there was a tank by the

 9     house.

10        Q.   Do you see that you actually agree with the commander of the

11     Sarajevo Romanija Corps?  He mentions those same places, except he

12     mentions them as places from which your army is attacking.

13        A.   Right, and the Serb Army was not attacking neighbourhoods and

14     civilians?  I can't understand how you can talk like that.  Our people,

15     if they were doing anything, they were defending their homes.  They were

16     not going up to a mountain in Romanija.  They were standing on their own

17     door steps, defending their own homes.

18        Q.   All right.  Do you believe your own web sites, your own people?

19     Do you believe the web site Angry Bosniaks?

20             JUDGE KWON:  What kind of question it is?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like to put to

22     Mrs. Mujanovic what this Muslim web site says about that day, the 8th of

23     June, and the April attacks on the factory.  If I'm not allowed to do

24     that, I'll withdraw it.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 8774

 1        Q.   But, Mrs. Mujanovic --

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mrs. Mujanovic has already said that she knows

 5     nothing of what occurred on the 8th of June after she was injured and

 6     taken to the hospital, so she can't speak to this.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But there were enough attacks, even

 9     before that, where Barica is mentioned.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you believe, Mrs. Mujanovic, that attacks originated from

12     Barica and that these troops returned to Barica after their operations?

13        A.   Mr. Karadzic, what were they supposed to advance with?

14     Bare-handed, or with a hunting rifle against shells and grenades, would

15     you go?

16        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Mujanovic.  I will not torture you anymore.  I

17     regret that you were wounded.  But you have to be angry on your own

18     politicians who wanted the war and who took you to the -- who pushed you

19     to the front-line.

20        A.   I heard you also, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something.

22             Your Excellency, it is not appropriate to torture this woman, who

23     knows nothing.  Indeed, she was wounded, but she doesn't know anything,

24     and there is plenty of evidence indicating that this was not a civilian

25     settlement.

Page 8775

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why don't you go to Ugorsko, sir,

 2     to see if there is anything of military and strategic importance there?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Any re-examination, Ms. Sutherland?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Then that concludes your evidence, Mrs. Mujanovic.

 6     Thank you for your taking time to give your testimony here.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Now you're free to go.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say a couple of words.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

12             The witness may be excused.  Thank you, Mrs. Mujanovic.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE KWON:  The only reason for this witness to appear before

15     the Tribunal is because you challenged her evidence and that you wanted

16     to cross-examine her.  Once you put your case to the witness, you don't

17     have to put every document to the witness.  I think it's -- I take it

18     that strategy now should be clear to you.

19             Yes.  What do you like to raise, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In general terms, I wish to say

21     that this trial can go on for 10 years.  It is a burden by the ambition

22     of the Prosecution to bury me with a vast quantity because they don't

23     have enough evidence.  If they had five good pieces of evidence and five

24     good witnesses, they wouldn't need hundreds.  And the Chamber should

25     protect me, personally, and this trial.

Page 8776

 1             What does this mean?  Who am I fighting against here?  Against

 2     this poor woman, who was wounded in an offensive that she knows nothing

 3     about?

 4             I think that the Chamber should order the Prosecution to

 5     re-examine their strategy and what they have in their hands, at their

 6     disposal.  Otherwise, we'll spend the next five years here.

 7             If there is such a procedural option, I suggest that the Chamber

 8     order them to summarise this and to come up with some really solid

 9     evidence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  All I can say at this moment is:  Consult your legal

11     advisers.

12             We'll have a break for 20 minutes, and we'll resume at 10 past

13     4.00, at which time we'll hear the evidence of Mr. Hajir, I take it,

14     Dr. Hajir.

15                           --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Dr. Hajir.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             If you could kindly take the solemn declaration, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  YOUSSEF HAJIR

24                           [Witness testified via videolink]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 8777

 1             JUDGE KWON:  During the course of your testimony today, if

 2     there's anything inconvenient for you, please let us know.

 3             Yes, Ms. Sutherland, it's your witness.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             In the meantime, before we begin, there's Dr. Donia's evidence.

 7     I was advised it was already admitted into evidence.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And so then could you tell us the name of the

10     exhibit -- the number of the exhibit?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Donia report was 65 ter

12     21894, admitted as Exhibit P973.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So the number given separately will be stricken out.

14             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

15                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

16        Q.   Witness, could you please state your full name?

17        A.   Youssef Mahmoud Hajir.  Youssef Hajir, father's name Mahmoud.

18        Q.   You're a doctor of medicine; correct?

19        A.   That's correct.

20        Q.   Dr. Hajir, you testified here on two previous occasions, and that

21     was in the trials of Stanislav Galic, in January of 2002, and

22     Momcilo Perisic, in January of 2009; is that correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   You've provided a number of statements to the Office of the

25     Prosecutor of this Tribunal; is that right?

Page 8778

 1        A.   That's right.

 2        Q.   In February of this year, you signed an amalgamated statement

 3     which contains relevant parts from your earlier statements, testimony,

 4     and information provided to the OTP.  Do you recall that?

 5        A.   I remember that well.  I had some corrections, and I think that

 6     they were recorded.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  We'll get to those in a moment.

 8             Mr. Registrar, could 65 ter 22100 be put on the screen, please --

 9     oh, sorry, be shown to the witness.

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Could you repeat the number again?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  22100.  The document was provided to the

12     Sarajevo Field Office on Friday afternoon, to be placed into the binder.

13     It's the witness's amalgamated witness statement, if that assists.

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We have it before us, thank you.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Dr. Hajir, in front of you do you recognise that which bears your

17     signature as a copy of the amalgamated witness statement you signed in

18     February?

19        A.   I can see it well.

20        Q.   You've had the opportunity to review this statement, and you wish

21     to make three corrections.  The first correction is to paragraph 24,

22     which appears on page 9 of the statement.  Page 7, I'm sorry.  The first

23     sentence:

24             "Later in 1993 and 1994, there was a military presence close to

25     the Dobrinja Hospital."

Page 8779

 1             You want to correct this to read:

 2             "Later in 1993 and 1994, there was not a military presence close

 3     to Dobrinja Hospital."

 4             Is that correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.  And I have an explanation, but perhaps we can

 6     leave it for later.

 7        Q.   Yes.  The second correction is to paragraph 33, which is on

 8     page 9 of the statement.  In the first sentence, there's a reference to

 9     military barracks, and you wish to change this to read "local BiH

10     military command for Dobrinja"; is this correct?

11        A.   That's correct, because it is more precise.

12        Q.   The third correction is to paragraph 53, which appears on page 13

13     of the statement.  The word in the fifth sentence, "hyperthermia," should

14     read hypothermia"; is that right?

15        A.   That's right.  "Hyperthermia" means an increased temperature, and

16     "hypothermia" means a lower temperature.

17        Q.   With those three corrections, does the statement accurately

18     reflect your previous statements and testimony or those portions of the

19     previous statements and testimonies?

20        A.   Absolutely.

21        Q.   If you were examined in court today on the same subjects, would

22     you provide the same information to the Court in response to questions

23     about those matters?

24        A.   Absolutely right.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender for submission 65 ter

Page 8780

 1     22100, the amalgamated witness statement.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1866.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And with Your Honour's leave, I'll read a short

 5     summary of the witness's written evidence.

 6             The witness is a doctor of medicine who lived in Dobrinja near

 7     the start of the war.  Dobrinja was a small, predominantly residential

 8     area at the western end of Sarajevo, toward the airport.  During the

 9     course of the war, Dobrinja experienced considerable sniping and shelling

10     activity and became an isolated community, cut off from Sarajevo and from

11     general access to electricity, gas, water, food and emergency medical

12     care.

13             Consequently, in May 1992, because of this isolation and the

14     extreme danger to which both ambulance drivers and injured patients were

15     exposed were they to attempt to drive to hospitals located in Sarajevo,

16     Dr. Hajir founded an emergency hospital and ambulant clinic to provide

17     local medical services to the Dobrinja population.  Initially, Dr. Hajir

18     was the only surgeon, and conditions at this emergency hospital were very

19     primitive, with operations being performed by candlelight, with

20     inadequate surgery tools and anaesthesia.  The hospital finally became

21     fully operational in July 1992 and eventually utilised the services of

22     125 to 150 staff.  Throughout the war, this hospital treated

23     approximately 16.000 persons.  Over 5.000 major operations were

24     performed, over half of which were due directly to the armed conflict.

25     Between 85 and 95 per cent of the people treated at the hospital were

Page 8781

 1     civilians, including women, children and the elderly.  Dr. Hajir states

 2     that the Serbs were absolutely targeting civilians.

 3             Dr. Hajir describes one shelling event which occurred on the 1st

 4     of June, 1993, and which resulted in the death or injury of over 140

 5     persons.  He further describes that, despite its status as a hospital,

 6     the facility was shelled on a number of occasions, and hospital staff

 7     were killed.  Dr. Hajir was shot at three times.

 8             Dr. Hajir describes how people still carry deep emotional scars

 9     and fears as a result of the sniping, shelling and extreme deprivations

10     due to the war, which has resulted in an increased rate of suicide for

11     the Dobrinja population.

12             Finally, by virtue of Dr. Hajir's position at the hospital, he is

13     able to explain record-keeping procedures in the hospital and

14     authenticate medical records, death certificates, photographs and videos

15     related to the circumstances and incidents described above.

16             Your Honour, that completes the brief summary of the witness's

17     written evidence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I now have a few questions for the witness.

20        Q.   Dr. Hajir, where in Dobrinja was the hospital located?

21        A.   The Dobrinja Hospital was located at Dobrinja 2, across from the

22     shopping centre that was being built.

23        Q.   What was the name of the street where you could enter into the

24     hospital?

25        A.   I forgot the name of this street.  I used to know, but I forgot.

Page 8782

 1     I don't know.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Exhibit P01739 on -- shown to

 3     the doctor, and if it could be brought up onto the screen.  This exhibit

 4     has the ERN 0546-6578, and it's the map referred to in paragraph 33 of

 5     the witness's statement.

 6             Is it possible we could put it on the screen here for the witness

 7     to see it on the screen down there?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Hajir, do you see the map in front of you?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Hajir, do you see a map in front of you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's proceed, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Dr. Hajir, do you see the map shows the area of the Dobrinja

15     settlement?  Are you able to describe for the Court where the hospital

16     was located in relation to the numbers that appear on the map?  Which

17     number is closest to the hospital?

18        A.   I can't really find my way on this map.  If you could at least

19     mark a building that housed something that I know, then perhaps I could

20     have better orientation on this map.

21             JUDGE KWON:  For the information of the Court Deputy in Sarajevo,

22     the 65 ter number of this is 13581.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I may lead on this, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Or we can zoom in, if necessary.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  If we can zoom in a fraction.

Page 8783

 1        Q.   Dr. Hajir, do you see the number 3 with the red circle?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we zoom -- can we zoom in again.

 4        Q.   Does that -- does that orient you at all?

 5        A.   A bit better, yes.  I can see the airport, I can see the

 6     buildings next to the airport, the airport settlement, and then this area

 7     here.

 8        Q.   Sir, correct me if I'm wrong.  The Dobrinja Hospital is located

 9     in the U - using the buildings as a U - directly below the number 3 with

10     the circle -- with the red circle; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   And that is -- what is seen is Dobrinjska Bolnicka Street; is

13     that right?

14        A.   It's called that now, Dobrinjska Bolnicka, after the war, but

15     that's not what it used to be called --

16        Q.   Now, can you describe or locate on that map the location where

17     the local BiH command building was situated?  You said in your statement,

18     at paragraph 33, that it was approximately 150 to 200 metres away from

19     the hospital.  In which direction; west, or another direction?

20        A.   Towards west.  From number 3, one would go towards the

21     north-west.  The building is next to the last line.  Next to the last

22     line, there is another line, and that marks the building where the

23     command was.  The building of the command is not covered by this map, as

24     far as I can see.  But, actually, from number 3, it could be, but I can't

25     see the roads.  I can't see which is Lugovicka [phoen] Road and which are

Page 8784

 1     others, and I don't want to mislead you.  I think if number 3 is here,

 2     then this semi-perpendicular line, if I may call it that, towards north

 3     and north-west from number 3.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Dr. Hajir, correct me if I'm wrong.  At the end of the

 5     buildings, there seems to be -- where there's no more buildings and

 6     there's then a big area with one little building with a dot, with a black

 7     mark, and then there's a bigger building off to the right -- to the left

 8     of that, and there's roads that cross; do you see that?

 9        A.   I do.

10        Q.   So was the BiH local command in around that area or not?

11        A.   No, it's on this side, not on the other side.

12        Q.   Do you see where that little black dot is?

13        A.   Yes, I can see the black dot.  Limar [phoen] Road passes through;

14     right?

15        Q.   If we continue on the road called "Bulevar" --

16        A.   It's on this side.

17        Q.   -- Srenovsa [phoen] --

18        A.   Yes, Dobrinja.

19        Q.   If we continue on that road and we go then out into the -- into

20     the area where there is no buildings, and then along that road you have

21     this little black dot on the left-hand side of the road.  Is that the

22     vicinity where the BH --

23        A.   Before that black building.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   It's not on that side, as I have told you, where the dot is, but

Page 8785

 1     on the other side, on the side where the hospital is.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I think we'll leave that map for now.

 3        A.   Because I have to tell you that this doesn't quite correspond to

 4     the placement of buildings.

 5        Q.   Dr. Hajir, you --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, to familiarise with the e-court

 7     system, I take it the witness is not able to mark the map through e-court

 8     in Sarajevo.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If he can -- no.  That's my understanding,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So in order for the witness to mark anything, he

12     should mark it on a hard copy and show it.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And he can hold it up to the screen, yes,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Dr. Hajir, would you please remove that map from the binder and

18     mark with a pen -- mark with an "A" where the Dobrinja Hospital is

19     situated and mark with a "B" where the local BH Command building was.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Court Deputy show it to us so that we can

21     follow.  Can we zoom out.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now, I can see the letter A, but I'm not sure --

23        Q.   Dr. Hajir, where have you placed the letter B?  If you can point

24     with the pen.

25        A.   You'll have to zoom in.

Page 8786

 1        Q.   If you could point with the pen where you have marked it on the

 2     map.

 3        A.   [Indicates] [In English] You see that?  I hold it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think I saw it, but -- yes, I saw it.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.

 6        Q.   So it's up near the smokestack; is that right?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] Where is the smokestack?  I can't see the

 8     smokestack.

 9        Q.   That's okay.  We will -- you've marked the map.  If you could

10     just sign and date that.  The date today is the 1st of November.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Doctor, you describe in paragraphs 48 to 61 of your statement the

13     effects of the war on the inhabitants, and you state that early in the

14     war there was shortages of water, electricity, fuel and food.  How did

15     this affect the running of the hospital?

16        A.   We couldn't really call it a hospital at the beginning.  The

17     shortages were continuous, and they were especially bad in the beginning.

18     And later on, it got better, once UNPROFOR arrived and various

19     humanitarian agencies.  Initially, it wasn't a hospital; it was an

20     out-patient clinic for urgent cases.  And it was certainly affected by

21     everything that was happening in daily life; sick people, people who

22     couldn't go into town, and so on.  So we had to admit them into the

23     hospital and treat them there.  We couldn't really call it a proper

24     hospital.  We had no surgical equipment.  We did not have tables for

25     anaesthesia.  We couldn't transport patients.  So we basically had

Page 8787

 1     nothing.  I performed difficult surgeries with dental equipment because

 2     there was no other way of helping people.  So it was a low-grade hospital

 3     where we only performed the basic things, sometimes with our bare hands,

 4     because we didn't have gloves, we didn't have sterile equipment.  We had

 5     just a small machine for sterilisation that we could use only for minor

 6     equipment so that we could at least stop the bleeding.

 7        Q.   At that early time, were you transferring patients to other

 8     hospitals around Sarajevo?

 9        A.   It was a difficult decision to transfer a patient in that

10     environment.  The environment of Dobrinja, if I can describe it now.

11     From the east, it was Lukavica.  From the northern side, there was

12     Mojmilo, where there were APCs and snipers.  On another side, there was

13     the Butile Barracks, with huge numbers of vehicles.  And from the fourth

14     side, there was the Nedzarici Barracks.  Basically, there were three

15     military barracks around, and Mojmilo was equipped with two or three APCs

16     and tanks, so Dobrinja was completely encircled.

17             It was difficult to decide whether to attempt to transfer a

18     patient across Mojmilo Hill by night, under cover of the night, whether

19     it was worth risking the lives of the people who would carry the injured

20     person and maybe lose four or five lives to save one, or was it better to

21     keep the person inside the hospital, inadequate as it was, and try to do

22     something there.

23             I don't know if that answers your question.

24             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, the marked map will be admitted

25     into evidence.

Page 8788

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1887, Your Honours.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Doctor, how many ambulances did you have at your disposal?

 5        A.   At the beginning, we had one ambulance.  We also used a

 6     Volkswagen passenger vehicle and a few Caddies to transport patients, but

 7     a lot of our vehicles were destroyed by shelling and sniping.  I once

 8     suggested that all these vehicles be gathered and placed in the museum to

 9     see how many bullet holes there were in them.  We used up many of them.

10     But the ambulance drivers were really brilliant.  They never gave up on

11     their job.  They did their best to transport a patient.  But to go to

12     Kosevo Hospital or to the military hospital, or, in other words, the

13     state hospital, was very, very risky.

14        Q.   Dr. Hajir, if we -- I would now like to play a very short

15     video-clip, and so I need to make sure that you can see the video before

16     we commence playing it.

17             And that's Exhibit P803, or this is a short portion which is part

18     of Exhibit P803.  It's referred to in paragraph 38 of the statement.

19             Dr. Hajir, are you able to confirm that you can see a frozen

20     frame on the screen?

21        A.   I can see it.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "The Reporter:  Every day, some also died."

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Dr. Hajir, do you recognise who's in the frame there?  It's

Page 8789

 1     frozen at 00:09:33:6.

 2        A.   Of course.

 3        Q.   Who is it?

 4        A.   It is I when I was 10 -- or, rather, 14 years younger.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

 6             If we can keep playing.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "The Reporter:  Mohamed Arapovic and Mustafa Sipovac, caught

 9     minutes earlier by a solitary mortar bomb outside the shelter of their

10     homes which they had left for a rare, fatal breath of fresh air.  In the

11     warehouse transformed into Dobrinja's solitary hospital, they struggled

12     to keep the two elderly civilians alive, an unequal struggle that's lost

13     after they are bundled into make-shift ambulances for the drive into

14     Sarajevo proper.  In the 24 hours we stayed in Dobrinja, eight others

15     would suffer a similar fate.  In all those --"

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Dr. Hajir, this vehicle that you saw in the clip, was that one of

18     the other vehicles that you were describing that you used as an

19     ambulance?

20        A.   Absolutely, yes.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I want to turn now to -- the video was stopped

22     at 00:10:11.1.

23             I want to turn now to the incident described in paragraphs 41 to

24     43 of your statement, and this is the incident which occurred during a

25     football-match held at Dobrinja on the 1st of June, 1993.

Page 8790

 1        Q.   Can you just describe for the Chamber what happened that day at

 2     the hospital?

 3        A.   It was a Muslim holiday, Bajram, a quiet morning.  Suddenly, I

 4     heard two or three -- and my memory is hazy on this, whether there were

 5     two or three shells at once.  And then 10 or 15 minutes later, we had a

 6     huge influx of injured people.

 7             When 150 injured people arrive at one time, not the biggest

 8     hospital in the world can deal with it.  It's really a disaster, complete

 9     chaos.  We put up those people in the doctors' rooms, in wards, in

10     corridors.  You couldn't pass through all these people.  The hospital was

11     packed with all the rooms available, and the morgue was also filled up.

12     The morgue was big enough to receive three or four bodies, and it was

13     packed.

14             First of all, we needed to do a triage of patients and divide

15     them into groups by urgency, and that was when we really proved ourselves

16     to be a great hospital for emergencies.  Within a couple of hours, I had

17     seen all the patients, I assigned them numbers by order of urgency and in

18     groups of 10 people in make-shift vehicles, after they were given

19     emergency assistance, like intubation after being hit by a grenade,

20     immobilising a fracture, immediate assistance in cases of injured thorax.

21     We had done all that, and within a couple of hours after -- after they

22     were given immediate assistance, some of them were sent away.  We kept 40

23     patients -- sorry, we sent away 40 patients to other places, and we kept

24     the rest in our hospital.

25        Q.   Dr. Hajir, I would now like to show you another brief video-clip.

Page 8791

 1     If you can confirm that you can see the video, the still, on the screen.

 2             Do you see that, before I commence playing the video?

 3        A.   I can.  BBC News.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Play.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "The Reporter:  Just after the attack, an amateur cameraman went

 7     with the wounded to the clinic at Dobrinja.  Several hundred men, women

 8     and children were watching the football when the first shell landed.  A

 9     second exploded a few minutes later, wounding people who had gone to help

10     victims of the first."

11             "Today we have a very bad, very sick day.  A lot of injured

12     patients, a lot of injured civilians and children.  What can I say now

13     for whole world, for civilisation?"

14             "The Reporter:  Dobrinja is one of the most violent places in

15     Sarajevo.  They're used to shelling, but the make-shift pitch is

16     surrounded by high blocks of flats and they thought the Serbs wouldn't be

17     able to see them.  The people here just wanted to have some fun.  Today

18     is one of the most important Muslim festivals of the year, and a game of

19     football was the only way they had to celebrate it.  'We can't live like

20     animals forever,' one of them said.  'After all, we are human beings.'

21     The people here are convinced the Serbs deliberately targeted the game.

22     The dead are the latest victims in what is supposed to be one of the UN

23     safe areas."

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

25             Your Honour, that was 65 ter 40349.  It is the video referred to

Page 8792

 1     in paragraph 43 of the witness's statement.

 2        Q.   Dr. Hajir, who was the gentleman that we saw in the hospital,

 3     being interviewed?

 4        A.   Dr. Lazovic, Naser Lazovic.  I don't think he was there.  I

 5     believe that statement was given in Traumatology.  I don't think he was

 6     in Dobrinja on that day.

 7        Q.   And the Traumatology Department is in the Kosevo Hospital; is

 8     that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you transferred a number of patients to that hospital?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I want you to look now at a document.

13             Mr. Registrar, the 65 ter number is 11371.

14             This is the document referred to in paragraph 72 of your

15     statement, Doctor.

16             JUDGE KWON:  You are going to tender that video-clip?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I note, for the record, it ran from 1.59:58 to

19     2.01:04.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm sorry, I didn't give you

21     the time code.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give the number for that.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P1868.  And a

24     correction for the record:  The previous map that was annotated by the

25     witness will be Exhibit P1867 and not P1887.  Thank you.

Page 8793

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Doctor, do you recognise that document?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And what is that?

 6        A.   This indicates the identity of the patients who were probably --

 7     who had probably arrived at the hospital.  Now, who added this note

 8     below, I really can't say, but I'm looking at one sheet listing some of

 9     the patients who were admitted at the hospital.

10        Q.   If we can look at the top of the document, we can see the columns

11     "Name" and "Address" and "Profession," and then a number, the age of the

12     person, the sex of the person, the type of wound, and then whether they

13     were admitted, discharged, or transferred.  Do you see that?

14        A.   Yes, I see the paper in front of me.

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... second page of the original

16     B/C/S.

17             If you look through that document, Doctor, you will see a number

18     of patients where their age is a zero.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What does that mean; that they were actually aged less than one

21     year or there was no information?

22        A.   There was probably no information.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             I seek to tender that document.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 8794

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1869, Your Honours.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Doctor, in paragraph 15 of your statement, you state that around

 4     16.000 people were treated at the hospital, and of this number, you

 5     performed approximately 3.000 major operations due to injuries suffered

 6     as a result of the conflict.  Is this a conservative number?

 7        A.   You know about these numbers that are mentioned.  You would have

 8     had to be there to see what it was all like.  When you -- then you would

 9     have understood it was simply impossible to account for everything.  We

10     were an improvised, make-shift hospital.  We didn't even have the paper

11     to do the paperwork properly.  We had to deal with preparing instruments

12     in the OR, to do everything from setting up the hospital, to deal with

13     all sorts of problems with establishing the hospital.  I was, at the same

14     time, the director, the general manager, and the head surgeon.  Not a

15     single surgery went without me, in whatever role.  It was a huge

16     responsibility.  I had to be the overall manager to take care of all the

17     departments; Pediatrics, Psychiatry, decide what to do with psychiatric

18     patients, Traumatology, all the departments, and I, personally, was never

19     satisfied with our records.  I don't know why it never worked properly.

20     What needed to be taken from the patient was the place and date of birth,

21     where they were injured, nature of the injury, what was done during the

22     operation.  I repeated all that a thousand times to my staff, but I was

23     never quite happy with the protocols they made.  They were never quite up

24     to proper hospital standards.

25        Q.   And I think you're saying the reason for this is because of

Page 8795

 1     the -- how you were operating at the time; is that right?

 2        A.   You mean what the reason was for that?

 3        Q.   Yes.

 4        A.   The reason was the shortage of staff and the way we worked,

 5     because people who were working at the time were people who happened to

 6     be there.

 7        Q.   Doctor, if I can just take you back to this last exhibit, I'm

 8     sorry, P1869, the list of names.  You said that you -- if I understood

 9     you well, you said that you recognised the document, but you didn't know

10     who had placed the handwriting on the bottom of the original or the copy

11     that we have.  Does that -- does that document list the wounded treated

12     at the Dobrinja Hospital on the 1st of June, 1993, which is the date of

13     the incident at the football ...?

14        A.   I don't remember dates at all.  I don't know whether it was on

15     the 1st of June or some other day.  I wrote a book about the hospital.  I

16     had to do research for one year before I wrote that book.  I really

17     wanted to write that book and give credit to the people who worked there.

18        Q.   Is that what is written in handwriting on the bottom of the

19     printed sheets on the first page?

20        A.   "Football-match, Dobrinja 3.  Consequences of shelling from the

21     direction of Lukavica."  Is that it?

22        Q.   Yes, that was what I was referring to.  And then on the second

23     page of that document, if we see the stamp at the bottom of the page, is

24     that the Dobrinja Hospital stamp?

25        A.   I really don't know who wrote that.  I neither had the time

Page 8796

 1     nor -- absolutely, you're right.

 2        Q.   And is that the Dobrinja Hospital stamp on the bottom of the

 3     second page?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Dr. Hajir, how did the civilian population in and around Dobrinja

 6     initially bury their dead?

 7        A.   That is a really sad story.  For the entire population, not only

 8     for Muslims, or only Serbs, or only Croats, but for everyone who lived in

 9     Dobrinja, who was in Dobrinja at the time.  There is normally no cemetery

10     in Dobrinja, no place where we could bury people.  We usually buried

11     people either in Bare or the new cemetery near that Mostar intersection.

12     In Dobrinja, there was no cemetery, so people buried bodies in parks,

13     outside their homes, wherever it was safe, safe from a sniper, safe from

14     a shell, they buried their near and dear.  After the war, these bodies

15     were all exhumed and re-buried in normal cemeteries.

16        Q.   Dr. Hajir, I would like to show you another brief clip.

17             Your Honours, this is part of Exhibit P803, 65 ter 40261.

18             This is the video that's referred to in paragraph 55 of your

19     statement.  Do you see a still of the video on your screen, before we

20     commence playing it?  If you could confirm that.

21        A.   Yes.  Absolutely, that's exactly the way it looks.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, that's the way it

24     looks.  That's what it looked like.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

Page 8797

 1             Your Honour, the time code was 00:12:03:38 to 00:12:16:01.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Dr. Hajir, is that what you were talking about, people burying

 5     their dead in the roadside graves?

 6        A.   I never personally attended such a burial, but I could see these

 7     graves when I passed by.  I never went out without a particular reason,

 8     nor was it possible to simply walk around.  You only got out when you had

 9     to, and it was only the person whose dead it was that had to do it.

10        Q.   Do you recognise the roadside there, where that is near to in

11     Dobrinja?

12        A.   Not really.  There were people buried all over Dobrinja.  It was

13     a huge cemetery.  This is not the only burial place.  There were graves

14     all over all the parks.  This must have been close to a car park that was

15     fenced in.

16        Q.   And, finally, Dr. Hajir, what did you observe -- if you can

17     briefly describe for the Court, what did you observe was the mental and

18     emotional effect that the constant shelling and the sniping in Dobrinja

19     had, first, on the hospital staff and patients, but, secondly, on the

20     civilian population?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I raise an objection?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             Before you, Dr. Hajir, answer the question:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My esteemed colleague is a surgeon,

25     and he's being asked questions from the domain of psychiatry.

Page 8798

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But if he can, he can answer as far as he knew at

 2     the time.

 3             Dr. Hajir, please proceed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was difficult for everyone.  I

 5     wondered, really, that in those primitive conditions in which I conducted

 6     surgeries with such serious injuries, there was never an infection

 7     contracted.  After the war, I never managed to complete that work.  But

 8     during the war, we treated all injuries and dressed the wounds

 9     immediately, without one infection, but I never read that sort of

10     experience in any war book, although it's true.  I explained that it must

11     have been a heightened adrenaline due to fear and due to anxiety for the

12     fate of one's near and dear, the impossibility of leading a normal life

13     as a family, the fact that your wife and children could not cross the

14     street outside the building.  And, of course, there was the

15     professionalism of the doctors.

16             There were suicides, but less than I would have expected.  I

17     believe that, in my tenure in Dobrinja, there were no more than five or

18     six cases.

19             There were, for instance, cases of paranoia, cases of various

20     psychiatric disorders, but we had an attending psychiatrist who worked

21     with us.  And later on, the Canadian Government gave us aid to set up

22     several psychiatric out-patient clinics, and then we referred such

23     patients to them.  I really can't tell you the number, and I wouldn't

24     like to make a mistake or make accusations without proper grounds.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Dr. Hajir.  That's all the questions

Page 8799

 1     that I ask.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             Shall we deal with the remaining associated exhibits?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, please.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             Three of the associated exhibits in Appendix A have been

 8     admitted.  That's the first in the list.  65 ter 13581 is already

 9     Exhibit P01379.  65 ter 40261, which we played two clips from, is part of

10     P803.  And the fourth exhibit on the second page of the Rule 92 ter

11     notification, 65 ter 09649, is Exhibit P01241.

12             In relation to the sixth exhibit listed on page 2, 65 ter

13     09642 --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you for slowing down.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- we would seek to admit only the medical

16     records issued by the Dobrinja Hospital within that exhibit.

17             And in relation to --

18             JUDGE KWON:  And how about 9948, 65 ter 9948?  It's already

19     admitted as Exhibit P1240.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I wasn't --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Are there some documents which should be put under

22     seal?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was going to say we seek to

24     have admitted the remaining exhibits in Appendix A.

25             In relation to Appendix B, the first exhibit that's listed there,

Page 8800

 1     we seek to only tender four of the twelve photographs produced by the

 2     witness, and two of them under seal due to their graphic nature.  And the

 3     ERN numbers of those are listed in the footnote to the confidential

 4     appendix.  And then the second exhibit listed in Appendix B may be a

 5     public exhibit in this case.  There's no need to keep it under seal in

 6     this case.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 8             Any objections?

 9             They will be all admitted and given numbers, but --

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  There are certain items that have already been

12     admitted.  And then the exhibit numbers will be circulated in due course

13     to the parties by the Court Deputy.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Karadzic, before you start your cross-examination, if you

17     find it convenient to take a break now, we can do so.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's all the same to me; whatever

19     suits you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then why don't we start now.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Hajir.

25        A.   Good afternoon, sir.

Page 8801

 1        Q.   Do I need to remind you how we met on the first day when you

 2     arrived in Sarajevo?  Do you remember that I was --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't hear because the

 4     speakers overlapped.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it would be good, and I was

 6     always proud of that.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind, Dr. Hajir, because Mr. Karadzic

 8     and you are speaking in the same language, which should be translated

 9     into a working language of the Tribunal, you need to put a pause between

10     the question and answer.

11             Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters didn't hear the last part of your

12     question:

13             "Do you remember that I was --"

14             And then the interpretation stopped there.  Shall we begin from

15     there again?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   ... that I was a host to Mr. Hajir and a compatriot of his?

18        A.   Absolutely -- may I speak now?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, yes.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I speak now?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, by all means, Dr. Hajir.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have always been proud of the

23     fact that I knew Dr. Radovan Karadzic, up until the war erupted and I saw

24     all the tragedy that emerged, and my life was shortened by half.  What I

25     saw is something that is hard to see on television or in a film.  There

Page 8802

 1     were a couple of times when I wanted to contact you to ask you personally

 2     about some things, but it was impossible because you were president and I

 3     was just a small doctor working in a small village called "Dobrinja," so

 4     that wasn't possible.  But even during the war, I always said that had it

 5     not been for the paramilitary and had it not been for those who were

 6     against me and who prevented me from coming to see you, I would have come

 7     to see you and talk to you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Do you remember how, immediately upon your arrival, we lost our

10     way on the Trebevic Mount because the snow was so high, it came up to our

11     waistline, and that was quite unusual for the two of you

12     [as interpreted]?

13        A.   Yes, I remember that well, and I also remember watching a movie

14     called "Rashomon" together.  It's a Japanese movie.  I didn't speak the

15     language very well, so I couldn't really follow the translation, and you

16     explained all the important bits from the movie for me.  And I remember

17     that well.

18        Q.   Yes, thank you, I remember that too.

19             Now, tell me, please -- I need to make a decision about what to

20     ask you.  Should I ask you about everything that you spoke of in your

21     statements or should I only ask you about your job, about something that

22     you definitely know of?  Do you know something about the military aspect?

23     Is that something that you would be aware of, you know, the

24     generally-known things?

25        A.   I know very little about the military, about the military aspect.

Page 8803

 1     I buried myself into that hospital in order to help people.  I sat with

 2     those people very frequently, and it was our job to help those people,

 3     regardless of who they were and how they ended up there.  So I buried

 4     myself in that hospital.  I seldom ventured out.  And perhaps I could

 5     answer your questions about some of the things that I heard about.  But

 6     as for me participating in any military activity, I didn't.

 7        Q.   In your statements, you say that up until the war, most likely up

 8     until early April, you lived at Vraca, in the predominantly Serb

 9     neighbourhood, and that knowing that you were Palestinian and a Muslim,

10     they asked you to stay with them at Vraca; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct, it's true.  I couldn't recognise those

12     people because they wore masks, and when I left in a car with my

13     children, they told me to stay.  People praised me there, because we all

14     lived together, and what you're saying is true.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in this part which pertains to military issues,

16     I have to ask you about these things.  Either you will immediately tell

17     me that you know nothing about it or we can clarify.

18             Do you know that as early as September 1991, there were over

19     100.000 organised members of the Patriotic League in Bosnia and

20     Herzegovina?

21        A.   I know that they organised a Patriotic League.  Now, as to their

22     numbers and who were their members, who set them up, I don't know

23     anything about it, although I do know that such an organisation was set

24     up.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the decision on organising the

Page 8804

 1     Patriotic League was adopted in late March, and that as early as

 2     September, it was organised already in 103 municipalities, and that by

 3     the time the war began, there were over 120.000 members armed and

 4     organised?  Not all of them were armed, but they were organised.  Now,

 5     I'm interested in the dates.  Do you know that it started that early,

 6     that it started in spring of 1991, and that by the time the spring of

 7     1992 came along, everything had already been organised?

 8        A.   No, I don't know about that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the Yugoslav People's Army was in

10     Sarajevo and in Bosnia until the 19th of May, 1992?

11        A.   It's very difficult for me to remember the dates.  But, yes, they

12     were there, there was a barracks at Bistrik and in other barracks, yes,

13     there was the Yugoslav People's Army there.  Now, as for the dates and

14     how long they were there, I really wouldn't be able to tell you.

15        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to tell you that at the time when you

16     arrived at Dobrinja, the Yugoslav People's Army had Mojmilo under their

17     control, and then they were pushed back by the Green Berets up until the

18     waterworks, and that later on the Army of Republika Srpska, which was

19     founded after the 20th May, was pushed back from the waterworks as well,

20     would you agree with that?

21        A.   Absolutely, I would, because I saw that.  I was there.  The

22     hospital was in some basement of a bookstore, an improvised bookstore,

23     and we were there.  We saw the APCs move about.  And to tell you the

24     truth, Radovan, they kept shooting at us.  Throughout that time, we put

25     the books up to protect us from being killed while helping people.  Trust

Page 8805

 1     me, that's how it was.  You were not nearby, but that's how it was.  And

 2     to tell you the truth, we were glad that it was all destroyed up there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  But once it was destroyed and once it came under the

 4     control of Green Berets, the Serbs in Nedzarici were not happy about it;

 5     would you agree with me?

 6        A.   Most likely, that's how it was.  Why would have they been happy

 7     about it?  It would have been easier for them if it hadn't been that way.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you remember that throughout April and almost

 9     throughout May, we used Ilidza Road, which is between the airport and

10     Dobrinja, and that we had a large part of Dobrinja under our control, but

11     we did not think that we needed to occupy it with military means?

12        A.   I think that that's how it was.  You had the road under your

13     control.  The vehicles passed by, and I was shocked when I came from

14     Vraca to Dobrinja, when, after two or three days, people called me,

15     because a young man had been injured.  And I went to a building

16     overlooking the airport and the other side, and I was shocked because

17     there at Dobrinja -- within Dobrinja, there were not many fightings

18     [as interpreted] going on.  I think that started on the 2nd and 3rd of

19     May.  There was some sporadic fighting, but the real pressure came after

20     the 2nd or 3rd of May.  However, the buildings next to the road were

21     pierced and had holes like Swiss cheese.  I spent some four or five days

22     within Dobrinja, and I didn't see that kind of sight inside Dobrinja;

23     only along the road.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me, then, that Serb TO members

25     and JNAs were pushed back by Green Berets from the central part of

Page 8806

 1     Dobrinja, and all we had under our control were the outskirts of Dobrinja

 2     and the airport settlement?

 3        A.   Well, the airport settlement is a tragedy in itself.  Trust me,

 4     sir.  I spent there four nights, I conducted surgeries for five straight

 5     days because I couldn't transport people out of there.  I think it was

 6     the Yugoslav Army who had tanks there, because I don't think that the

 7     Serb Army already at that time had tanks and heavy weapons.  I don't

 8     think that they did, based on what I saw.  Perhaps somewhere quite far

 9     away, they did have something, but where I was, they didn't have much

10     weaponry.  So I think that it was the Yugoslav People's Army.

11             People went through the buildings, and about 47 injured people

12     came to me.  A large number of them were elderly, and they were gathered

13     and then transported elsewhere and sent back to their families.  I

14     remember that.  But I was alone there, and I know that I worked for five

15     days straight.  I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat.

16             And on that day, we arrived at 1.00 a.m.  It was incredibly hard.

17     And that was one of the first massacres, because I consider that to be a

18     massacre.  If you have five people armed with rifles, that's no army.

19     Well, it was really incomprehensible.  It was a response to five armed

20     men.  They came in with tanks and ran over everything.

21        Q.   Do you remember that Enver Hadzihasanovic, a Muslim, commanded

22     that tank unit, and later on he became a general in the Army of Bosnia

23     and Herzegovina?  At that time, he commanded that tank unit?

24        A.   I don't know whether he commanded that unit, but I know that he

25     was the commander who deployed JNA forces around Sarajevo and JNA tanks.

Page 8807

 1     Whether he was in command in that battle, I really don't know.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic and Dr. Hajir, we'll have a break now

 3     for 20 minutes.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can I remind you that this same General Hadzihasanovic lost eight

 9     soldiers in Dobrinja that the Green Berets captured, and that was the

10     reason for the militarisation of Dobrinja.  Do you remember that one

11     unit, in a personnel carrier, went to Ilidza to resolve some kind of

12     conflict, and then the Green Berets captured them in Dobrinja?

13        A.   I'm really not aware of that.  I've never heard of that.  I'm

14     hearing this for the first time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  We agreed that Dobrinja was not a militarised area

16     for a long time.  We agreed that conflicts at Mojmilo, the initial

17     conflicts, were against the JNA.  You mentioned that yourself.  Do you

18     agree that all of that was a conflict between the Green Berets and the

19     JNA, not between the Green Berets and the Bosnian Serbs?

20        A.   What you're saying, I'm really not able to confirm or deny

21     because I don't know.  I know what I lived through, what my family went

22     through and the people around me.  I can speak about that.  As for

23     whether it was the Green Berets or someone else, I don't know.  I was

24     never a Green Beret or anything else.  I was a citizen who wanted to

25     protect his family.  I was in Dobrinja for a lot of the time because my

Page 8808

 1     friend was there.  He said, Dobrinja is peaceful, come.  So I went to

 2     Dobrinja on the 18th of April sometime, around the 18th of April, to stay

 3     at my friend's.

 4             What I saw later -- I wasn't going out a lot, but there was some

 5     sniper activity there from the other side, and there were many wounded.

 6     The school called -- I don't know what it's called now.  It's an

 7     elementary school.  It was burning.  People were trying to put out the

 8     fire, and about eight or ten people were killed, they died.  They called

 9     me.  They heard that I was there.  They called me to help, and I -- the

10     commander of the military police, Ismet Hadzic, was there.  He opened the

11     medical centre, and we started to work.  I started that day.  I prepared

12     some supplies, material that I found, mainly dentistry material.  I found

13     some sterile supplies.  I began with surgeries sometime at 2.00 in the

14     afternoon until 4.00 a.m. in the morning.  I treated those people.  But

15     there were four or five where complications or bleeding could have

16     happened later, so I couldn't let them go home.  I found some mattresses,

17     some bedding, and we placed those people on those mattresses on the

18     floor.  I, myself, slept on one of those mattress also because I couldn't

19     leave those people and go home, or actually, go to my friend's house.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I think that that was the Simon Bolivar School.  Was

21     that right?

22        A.   Yes, correct.

23        Q.   Do you know that this Tribunal here rejected that incident with

24     the Simon Bolivar School in a different case because it was a fabricated

25     event?

Page 8809

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not for the witness to comment on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 3             Can we then look at 65 ter 12343, 12343.

 4        Q.   This is a document from the 4th Corps of the 2nd Military

 5     District.  Can I ask you to look at the first paragraph.  You will see

 6     that conflicts broke out in Ilidza and that a column that was supposed to

 7     resolve those conflicts passed through Dobrinja in the Rosa Hadzivukovic

 8     local community sector.  Their Caterpillar broke, and they were ordered

 9     to have the vehicle repaired, and then they were captured by the

10     Green Berets quite unexpectedly.  This was on the 22nd of April, some

11     days -- seven or eight days after you came to Dobrinja; is that correct?

12     You didn't hear anything about this, did you?

13        A.   No, I didn't.  Really, I don't know.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we tender this document, please?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Did you introduce what document it is about?

17             Dr. Hajir, do you agree that this is a document from the

18     4th Corps of the 2nd Military District?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to agree with.

20     There's a piece of paper with something written on it.  I don't know what

21     I'm supposed to agree with or disagree with.  Anyone could have written

22     it.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page.  Then

24     we will see.  The signature is on the last page.

25        Q.   In the signature, we have the chief of the 4th Corps

Page 8810

 1     Security Department, Lieutenant-Colonel Marko Lugonja; do you agree?

 2        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has said that he

 5     doesn't know anything about the contents of the document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Quite so.

 7             We'll not admit this through this witness, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we look at 1D1375 just so that we can quickly glance at it

10     and have the confirmation of this event from the Muslim side, the Muslim

11     Croat side.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if the witness is saying that he

13     doesn't know anything about this event, isn't it wasting time to take him

14     to another document which may be authored by the ABiH, if he still

15     doesn't know about the event?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Are we talking about -- are we on the same subject?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the response -- or,

18     actually, a report of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina about the people

19     who were captured there.  And I understand that Dr. Hajir doesn't know

20     many of these things, but he said a lot of things about these matters in

21     his statement, so I would like to show him and to the parties who

22     militarised Dobrinja and what was happening in Dobrinja.  It's very

23     important to know that this was not just some Serbian whim, but that

24     something happened before that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  By now, you should be aware of how to cross-examine

Page 8811

 1     a witness.  This is a simple waste of time.  Put your question and see

 2     whether the witness can confirm anything about this document at all.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Dr. Hajir, have you heard of this Hasanefendic and this here

 5     Doko?  Hasanefendic is a commander, and Jerko Doko is the defence

 6     minister.  Have you heard of them?

 7        A.   Yes, I have.

 8        Q.   Do you agree that they responded, saying from the 22nd of April

 9     to the 21st of May, nothing was heard or known of these people, and

10     nothing was known to this very day?  Do you agree that a whole month

11     passed before they answered?

12        A.   Well, yes, that's what it says in the document, if what they're

13     saying is -- that they refer to this date and that date, and I can see

14     that.  I can't say anything else about this.

15        Q.   All right, thank you.  Dr. Hajir, you said in your statements

16     that there were many victims, casualties, a thousand casualties in

17     Dobrinja, and only three of those -- 3 per cent of those casualties were

18     civilians.  Should we reject this figure or should we go to clarify?  Is

19     this something that you just said off the cuff?  Was this something that

20     was statistically established?  What is all the thing with this?

21        A.   I can just say what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Can Mr. Karadzic give the

23     statement and the page number or the paragraph number, please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gladly.  This is why I asked my

Page 8812

 1     learned friend if we are going to be dealing only with things that he

 2     knows definitely, these are medical matters, or should we also deal with

 3     things that are also said incidentally.

 4             On page 2 -- actually, this was said -- just one moment.  This

 5     was said in the testimony Prosecutor versus Galic, the

 6     examination-in-chief, on page 1677, paragraphs 8 to 10.  I'm sorry, the

 7     page is actually 1682, paragraphs 23 to 25.  In the newly-formed hospital

 8     in Dobrinja, patients in 1992 were mostly civilians, while the percentage

 9     of soldiers was 3 per cent because the army was not formed yet.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I don't know if you can find this, Dr. Hajir.  Oh, you have it as

12     well.

13        A.   I can only talk about what I saw.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your question now was, Only 3 per cent

15     were soldiers, while your previous question was to the effect that

16     3 per cent of those casualties were civilians.  It's quite the other way

17     around.  Probably that's why Ms. Sutherland arose.  Maybe an

18     interpretation, but let's move on.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's a slip of the tongue

20     or it could be a translation error.  I mean, this is the second shift we

21     are working on.  I would have noticed if I had said "3 per cent of

22     civilians."  Actually, the estimate was that there were 3 per cent of the

23     soldiers.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Dr. Hajir, what is the criteria for somebody to be classified as

Page 8813

 1     a soldier or a civilian?  Was it the clothing or the uniform?

 2        A.   I must say that there were no uniforms at that time.  It was

 3     those who were carrying weapons, that was my criteria.  While I was

 4     staying at my friend's and where I was staying in the beginning, no one

 5     was carrying weapons.  People were organising local guard duties at home

 6     to prevent somebody entering a building, massacring the tenants, so it

 7     was just checking those who were coming into the building.  There were no

 8     uniformed soldiers around, and the army was not officially formed yet.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So if 90 per cent of people were wearing civilian

10     clothing, do we -- 97 per cent, do we need to assume that a good number

11     of them were also fighters?

12        A.   I really don't know.  I wasn't really thinking about that,

13     Mr. Radovan.  I told you what my criteria was.  Whether it was a soldier,

14     or a normal person, or somebody who was serving in the military pursuant

15     to some order, I wasn't really paying attention to those people.  I'm not

16     concealing anything from you.  I don't know if there was somebody else,

17     they did report or didn't report.  I don't know.  My criteria was whether

18     somebody was carrying a weapon or not, because they all looked the same

19     in civilian clothing.  You know that the Army of the Republic of Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina was officially formed only in August.  Like you say, I

21     don't know about Green Berets or anything like that.  I never actually

22     saw any Green Berets in Dobrinja.  I didn't see them saying, I'm a

23     Green Beret.  I didn't see them.  I wasn't a member.  Nobody introduced

24     me to any of them.  You have to believe me.  This is the truth.

25        Q.   I absolutely believe you, and I believe that you were not in the

Page 8814

 1     Green Berets.  Were you in the 155th Brigade, though?

 2        A.   Look, yes, this is an answer to your question, if I may explain.

 3     May I explain?

 4        Q.   Yes, of course.

 5        A.   It's like this:  I gave myself the task to help people.  That was

 6     my objective.  Had I been in Republika Srpska and had I given myself that

 7     task, I would have had to co-operate with people there and with different

 8     commanders in order to be able to carry out my task.  So the same thing

 9     happened there, that I was a member, but I never left the hospital.  I

10     didn't go anywhere.  Officially, in 1994, I don't know which month it

11     was - perhaps it was October or November - I was recorded officially as a

12     member of the army.  I didn't have any assignments outside of the

13     hospital.  No one ever came to me and said, Do this, or, Do that.  My

14     programme was accepted by the commander as well, and I never had any

15     problems in -- and I didn't distinguish between people.  People are

16     people, whether they are Serbs, Croats, Muslims.  The man is hit, he is

17     sick, and he needed help.  That was the goal.  It was really like that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Nothing is of dispute here, it's not a problem.  Just

19     tell me, how long were you in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20        A.   I think until the -- until October or November.  I left the army

21     of my own accord.  I asked the commander to release me.

22        Q.   Until November 1995; is it right?

23        A.   No, until November 1994.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'm a little confused when you say the brigade was

25     formed in Dobrinja in late 1992.  You said that in the testimony in the

Page 8815

 1     Galic case, on page 1708, paragraphs 15 and 16.  Do you agree that that

 2     brigade was under a different name, like -- the name was the 5th Brigade,

 3     and that it was formed before the end of 1992?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look, Ismet Hadzic was --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's not the right page of the Galic

 9     transcript.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that it is, 1708.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  1708, at line 15 and 16, is a question:

12             "When admitting patients on the 1st of June, you said you

13     admitted roughly 140, and there were 13 or 14 persons killed?"

14             Which I presume is referring to the 1st of June, 1993, incident.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought it was paragraph 15, 16.

16     We're going to find it.

17             Well, Dr. Hajir remembers that -- he said it was towards the end

18     of 1992.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is that correct?  Do you remember that before it got the name

21     155th, it was formed as the 5th Motorised Brigade, and that Ismet Hadzic

22     was appointed commander later?

23        A.   No, it wasn't like that.  Ismet Hadzic, when I came, he helped me

24     with the hospital.  So he was the commander of the military police.  That

25     was his title.  There was some command of a political nature.  I don't

Page 8816

 1     know who set it up.  Why, I don't know.  So that is where Mr. Becirovic

 2     was the commander, nominated as the commander in Dobrinja.

 3             But the military, the army, in the true sense of the word, was

 4     formed much later.  I'm not so good with the dates, I have to tell you.

 5     I don't know the dates, what was when, when it was formed exactly.

 6     I think it was late that year.  Maybe it was in September.  I really

 7     absolutely have no idea.  There were people there who wanted to defend

 8     Dobrinja.  I don't know whether that was a brigade, whether these were

 9     armed people.

10        Q.   Thank you.  So this is on page 1700, not 1708 - that was the

11     error - line 20, yes, line 20, that this was in late 1992.

12             However, can we now look at 1D1192 now, please, the decision on

13     the units that are part of the 1st Corps.  1D1192 in e-court.  That is a

14     document on the left --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is a lot of

16     background noise.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   We're not sure if there is a translation.  Ah, there is a

19     translation, and it says in the document that on the 18th of August,

20     Alija Izetbegovic makes a decision about what is going to comprise the

21     1st Corps of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And at

22     the bottom, it says "The 15th Brigade, Novi Grad, Sarajevo."  And it is

23     saying that it is part of that from the 18th of August.  And then

24     already --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Dr. Karadzic is kindly asked to repeat his

Page 8817

 1     question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I don't know.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters couldn't hear your last question,

 4     although we heard the witness's answer.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The question is

 6     whether this brigade was already part of the 1st Corps, as a complete

 7     brigade, on the 18th of August.  And I understand that Dr. Hajir doesn't

 8     know many military things, but what worries me is that in his statement

 9     there are many matters relating to military issues.  And this is why I

10     have to put these questions to him.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Hajir, did you say anything?  Yes, please, by

13     all means.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he showed me that, I said I

15     didn't know what that was, and I said I wasn't sure whether it's

16     100 per cent sure that this is written accurately.  Do you see that,

17     Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a document from the Army of

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I accept that you're not aware of it.  I'm just

20     trying to say that there are many things you were perhaps not aware of,

21     but have since been established.

22             Now, let's finish with the hospital first, and then we'll decide

23     either we are going to completely set aside the military aspects of your

24     evidence or we have to explore that in detail.

25             Can we now call up 65 ter 10447.

Page 8818

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that your last comment is a statement.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I'm trying to

 3     announce.  Mr. Hajir will have to decide what we are going to do with the

 4     issues that he knows nothing about but he spoke about in his statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It's not for the witness to comment on that.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

 7        Q.   Dr. Hajir, do you recognise on this sheet of paper that it says

 8     "War Hospital, Dobrinja"?

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Excuse me.

10             I just want to mention on record, Your Honours, that we do not

11     have the latest document that Mr. Karadzic has called up.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it should be there.  It was

13     notified.  It has an ERN number 0214-4141.

14             Can we see the next page?

15             JUDGE KWON:  I take it it should be part of the Prosecution's

16     binder, so the Court Deputy in Sarajevo should be able to find that.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely.  We received that for

18     this witness.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, that will be admitted as

20     Exhibit P1871, Your Honours.

21             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, can we have the

22     65 ter number again, please?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Doctor, do you see that document?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 8819

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Does Dr. Hajir recognise this paper?  Somebody confirmed,

 3     I think, that this information was taken from the historical archives of

 4     the city of Sarajevo.  Do you agree with that, Dr. Hajir?

 5        A.   I do.  If I may, if you don't mind, I can explain to the

 6     Trial Chamber.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed, Dr. Hajir.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the improvised premises where we

 9     were located from the 5th of May onwards, we expanded our activities.

10     Both injured and sick people came to see us, and there was really no

11     reception area, and so the Civilian Protection adapted some premises

12     nearby which gave us an additional four rooms for patients, one OR,

13     et cetera.  And then the Civilian Protection wrote this paper, and they

14     named us "War Hospital, Dobrinja."  That's the name they gave us.

15             And there were some differences we had with the commander.  This

16     has been recorded with the Court.  In 1993, we were registered as the

17     Town Hospital, Dobrinja, whereas the commander called us "War Hospital."

18     And later on, I tried to get some awards for the staff, and I wanted the

19     health authorities to recognise us as a real hospital, and I advocated

20     that we be called "General Hospital."

21             So this paper you are looking at is something the Civilian

22     Protection wrote against my will.  It stood on the door this way for a

23     while, and -- in 1993, and then we were officially granted the name

24     "General Hospital."

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

Page 8820

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Would you please take a look at this list of people who were

 3     treated.  Do you agree that everyone on this page was a fighting man,

 4     either in a military company or in a special unit of the Ministry of the

 5     Interior, or the Delta Group, or something?

 6        A.   I have given an oath to speak the truth and only the truth.  I

 7     don't want to make accusations against anyone.  Of course, I may have

 8     treated these people, but I have no chance of remembering who they were.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Then I will read this.

10             Below the name of this first man, Abdulah, we see "2nd Brigade,

11     3rd Company."  The next one, "Senad," "Armed Forces of the MUP, special

12     unit."  Then we see "Esad Oric," "Armed Force Delta," whatever that

13     means.  The next one, "Alija Cizmovic," "Armed Forces, 1st Battalion, 5th

14     Company."  Can we -- the next one belongs to some Delta force.  We go

15     further along the list, "MUP special unit," "Armed Forces," again

16     "Armed Forces," and the last one is "Armed Forces of the MUP, special."

17     All of these were fighting men, down to the last one?

18        A.   Well, according to this document, yes, and it's probably true.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now get 65 ter 22042.

20     That's your book.  Sorry, 65 ter 22045.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

22        Q.   While we're waiting:  Do you know that on the other side of the

23     airport, in Blagaj, another surgeon, Dr. Lazic, set up a hospital not

24     unlike yours?

25        A.   I know that, and I even received a patient, a Muslim woman from

Page 8821

 1     there.  She had been operated on by Dr. Anicic [phoen].  I would like to

 2     take this opportunity to thank this doctor.  She, the patient, did very

 3     well, and the surgery was very well done.

 4        Q.   Is this the cover of your book?

 5        A.   Apparently, yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 22045.  We

 7     can't see it all.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that's the 65 ter number, 22045.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right.

10             Sorry, the page number, ERN, is 0674-5892, and it seems to be

11     page 20 in the book, itself.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to repeat.  220 --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have the right document, but the

14     ERN page number is 0674-5892.  And in the book, it's page 20.  Right.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is this Ismet Hadzic who offered you hospitality in Dobrinja and

17     later became commander of the 155th Brigade?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in this right column, it says you

20     had received keys to the nearby infirmary, and you say:

21             "There, I could offer surgical services to injured people without

22     exposing myself and them to great danger from shelling and sniping"?

23             Is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, could we now move to page, in

Page 8822

 1     the book, 134.  And the ERN number is 0674-6006.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Dr. Karadzic.  Before we

 3     move to that page, can I say a few words about this?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was this man's guest.  They

 6     invited me, and they said that there were wounded people there, that I

 7     should come.  And he lived in a flat in a building 150 metres away from

 8     the command.  That is, the distance between the infirmary and the command

 9     was 150 metres.  But we took an hour and a half, because of all the

10     incoming fire, to get there, and we had to hide and run from dumpster to

11     dumpster, taking cover.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Yes, that was wartime.  Weren't you, in fact, a wartime -- a war

14     hospital on the front-line?

15        A.   Correct.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 134 in the

17     book.  And the ERN number is 0684-6006.  That's the right page.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   You see it on the screen?

20        A.   Where?

21        Q.   In e-court.  In the book, it's page 134.

22             Do you agree that it says -- we see it reversed, like in a

23     mirror.  "Hospital Dobrinja, TO of the Republic of BH"?

24        A.   Yes, that's right.

25        Q.   Does that mean that this hospital belonged to the

Page 8823

 1     Territorial Defence or perhaps that the Territorial Defence was situated

 2     in the same building?

 3        A.   The Territorial Defence was helping both with the establishment

 4     and in our work all the time, because we were not able to leave the

 5     building.  They brought us food, they brought us mattresses, pillows,

 6     sheets.  The Territorial Defence, indeed, helped a great deal to set up

 7     the hospital in the first place.

 8             And to answer your question:  If it -- there was really no army

 9     at the time.  There was the Territorial Defence.  Do you understand what

10     I'm trying to say, Dr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Quite, quite, thank you.

12             Can we now move to page 174.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 174.  Which number is at the top?

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   066746046.  Here it is in e-court.  Do you see this chart?

16        A.   I don't.

17        Q.   You can see it now.  Does it show that peacetime injuries at the

18     time numbered 1.031, including 67 per cent while moving through the

19     tunnel, mainly head injuries, followed by 17 per cent of accidents,

20     et cetera?

21        A.   Right.

22        Q.   This should be distinguished from wounds sustained in wartime?

23        A.   I don't know how this works, really, but obviously we need to

24     make the distinction.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

Page 8824

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Your book says, on page 175:

 3             "During the war, 1.283 major surgeries were performed and 6.213

 4     minor surgeries."

 5             And now, if we take into account the number of days of the war,

 6     there was, on average, one major surgery per day, and minor outpatient

 7     clinic surgery, five per day.  And you'd have to take into account that

 8     many of them were peacetime injuries.

 9             Do you agree that there were, in the 1300 days of war, 1283 major

10     surgeries?

11        A.   I didn't understand this question.

12        Q.   Well, it says clearly here that there were 1283 major surgeries.

13     That means in the OR; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And there were 6.213 minor surgeries, so I take it that you have

16     to deduct 1.031 from 6.213, and we get something over 5.000.  And if we

17     take it that the war lasted 1300 days, it amounts to 4 minor surgeries

18     per day.  And when it says in another paper that you treated 16.000

19     patients, does that include all sorts of check-ups or do you mean to say

20     that there was that amount of surgeries?

21        A.   You see, we had to transfer many people and send many people

22     away.  With the size of our centre, we couldn't deal with that amount of

23     surgeries, so many people were directed to go to other medical centres.

24        Q.   Yes.  But the fact remains that, from Dobrinja, it was possible

25     to get to a major medical centre?

Page 8825

 1        A.   When Mojmilo was active, yes.  When the APCs and tanks were up

 2     there, it was not possible.  It was very risky.  And even later, it was

 3     very risky due to sniping, and many people continued to die -- to get

 4     killed travelling to the city.  We used all sorts of make-shift vehicles

 5     and put all sorts of piping and whatever we could lay our hands on on the

 6     inside of the vehicles to protect ourselves from fire.  There were

 7     certain moments that you could qualify as quieter than others so we could

 8     transport people.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  A driver testified here who was driving the wounded

10     from the 101st and 102nd, wounded from Mojmilo and Stup.  Were the

11     wounded from those brigades brought to you or did they all go to the

12     centre?

13        A.   Most of them went to the centre.

14        Q.   So the hospital mainly processed fighters of the 105th Brigade

15     and Dobrinja inhabitants; is that right?

16        A.   Including the people who were passing through the tunnel.  There

17     were many such cases.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that 155th Brigade had 5.000 fighters

19     and 5 or 6 battalions?

20        A.   I know of four battalions, myself.  I don't know about the rest.

21     I really don't know.  I never heard of any more than four.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that among the Muslims in the Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina Army, there was a sense that Ismet Hadzic was an extremist

24     and that he should not be allowed to be a commander?

25        A.   Well, he wasn't a fanatic.  There were people who disagreed with

Page 8826

 1     him, in terms of some of his decisions and so on, but these are internal

 2     matters.  There are people who didn't like him.  There were people like

 3     that, for certain reasons.  I got into a conflict with him because of the

 4     reorganisation of the hospital.  He wanted to interfere, to name it the

 5     Brigade Hospital, War Hospital, but it wasn't.  We were receiving

 6     civilians, all kinds of people, including soldiers, and, conditionally

 7     speaking, enemies who were wounded and who came there, and they were

 8     given the same kind of treatment, just like everyone else.  And I can

 9     state that to anyone.  All those who came to the hospital were treated in

10     the best possible way that we were able to provide.

11             In the beginning of the work of the hospital, Dr. Karadzic, we

12     had contacts with Serbian barricades in Mojmilo, and we informed them by

13     telephone -- we would ask for their permission to allow us to pass to

14     Kosevo, and there was no problem.  They would let us through if there

15     were no weapons involved.  This is what we agreed with them.  There were

16     17 transports.  I would always ask the patient, Do you want to go to

17     Kosevo or do you want to go to Pale?  Whatever the patient wanted is what

18     we would do.  We would take him to the barricade, we would previously

19     announce that such and such a patient wanted to go to Pale, and then they

20     would, I guess, take him to Pale after that.  We were not stopped until

21     after the incident with Mr. Vidovic, if you remember.  You know

22     Mr. Zelimir Vidovic.  I'm not sure if he's Zelimir.  I'm not that good

23     with names and numbers.  Anyway, I had four patients, and I said right at

24     the beginning it was difficult.  We didn't have the option to give

25     anaesthesia or blood transfusions.  I had four patients.  One was in a

Page 8827

 1     coma, one with a severed femoral artery that we kind of patched up

 2     temporarily.  Then we had one with a hematoma in the pneumothorax, and

 3     then there was another person with another injury.  And then Mr. Vidovic

 4     came with some driver, and at the door.  I remember it like it was

 5     yesterday.  He said, I guarantee with my life that I will take all these

 6     patients to Kosevo.  And they took them to Kosevo.  But on their way

 7     back, they were detained, and I didn't see this Vidovic anymore.  His

 8     widow and his two daughters lived in Dobrinja until the end of the war.

 9     After that -- and his wife was a Serb from a family that is well known in

10     Dobrinja.  I don't know which one it was.  We had never heard any more.

11     Actually, later I asked his wife, Did you find him?  She said, We found

12     his grave in Nedzarici, we found his grave there.  And I'm just telling

13     you what I heard.  I'm telling you exactly what she told me.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we look at 1D00081.  Can we look at that in e-court, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   This is a dispatch by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

18     protesting -- can we scroll up.  This is a reaction to the appointment of

19     Ismet Hadzic as deputy commander of the 1st Corps, and it says here this

20     Sacir Arnautovic, who is also a Muslim, he says that, and you can see the

21     text, that it is believed that he's a person appointed by politics, or,

22     rather, the SDA party, in order to create a Muslim army.  And then in the

23     next paragraph, it says that some persons believe that Hadzic's

24     appointment is a betrayal of the principles and the platform of the

25     Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a secular state,

Page 8828

 1     an army.

 2             So the entire text speaks of him as a person who is a person of

 3     Islamic leanings, who would create an Islamic army, an ethnic army and an

 4     ethnic Dobrinja.

 5             Is that what you were referring to when you said that he had some

 6     people who disagreed with him, he had some opponents?

 7        A.   May I answer?

 8        Q.   Yes, yes.

 9        A.   Hadzic did have a lot of opponents, but he was a God-fearing man.

10     He was not an extremist.  I can state that, and I know that.  He was a

11     God-fearing man.  There were plenty of Serbs and Croats in the army, and

12     they never complained about him.  There were more complaints made by the

13     Muslims, because he had a different approach.  He didn't know how to

14     treat people.  He could polarise people and bring people to look at him

15     differently.  He didn't have proper skill -- people skills, but it wasn't

16     his intention to create any kind of Muslim army.

17             He would come to visit me every day, he would come to see me

18     every day.  We never spoke about that.  He never said anything to me, in

19     terms of, We should do this, We need Muslims, or something like that.  I

20     would have reacted differently if he had done that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we tender this document, please?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't know that the witness has

25     added anything to the document at all.

Page 8829

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what I should say.  I

 3     don't know about this document.  It says "Military Secret," it says

 4     "Chief."  What can I add?  I can add nothing and take nothing away.

 5             What I'm saying is, I mean, Alija Izetbegovic, although I know

 6     you're against him 100 per cent, neither he nor Hadzic were extremists.

 7     It would have been very different, had the two of them been extremists.

 8     They were God-fearing people.  They wanted -- how can I put it?  They

 9     wanted to bring their children up without fear, without shame.  They

10     didn't want an exclusively Muslim state.  This is what I'm hearing for

11     the first time, really.  And for me, this document is something that I

12     really cannot adopt.  I don't know if it's an authentic document.

13     Perhaps it is.  But as for whether I agree with it or not, I do not agree

14     with it.  I know both sides of the coin.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While the Trial Chamber is

16     deciding, I just wanted to tell you, Dr. Hajir, that I got on excellently

17     with Izetbegovic until the moment he wanted to spread his ideas to

18     include the Serbs.  But I did believe in his right to decide whatever he

19     wanted in relation to the Muslims.  There was complete tolerance.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Well, in order to understand the context of the

21     witness's evidence, i.e., contextualise his evidence, we find it

22     relevant.  And to that extent, we'll admit this, but we'll mark it for

23     identification.

24             But I have a question --

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, could I just mention

Page 8830

 1     that --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  -- for you, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, the witness just

 4     mentioned a couple of -- [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Dr. Hajir, do you difficulty following us?  Do you

 6     follow the proceedings in the language you understand?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can follow, but there

 8     was an interruption.  I couldn't hear any voices for a certain interval.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I thank you.  I don't think you missed anything.

10             Ms. Sutherland, one of the associated exhibits was the book

11     authored by Dr. Hajir?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you tender it in its entirety?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, because of the Trial Chamber

15     guide-lines, that the Trial Chamber is not minded to accept books in

16     their entirety, because the witness -- I didn't take the witness to any

17     of the book in his examination-in-chief.  There are two references to it

18     in his statement, but I didn't elucidate on them with the witness.  So I

19     don't know whether Your Honours wish to have the book admitted or not.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It is the Chamber's position to admit only those

21     passages referred to by the witness, unless there's exceptional

22     circumstances.  And speaking for myself, I don't see any reason not to

23     follow that procedure.  So if you can identify the passages you like to

24     rely on, we'll admit only those parts.  And if Mr. Karadzic wishes to

25     tender those parts referred to, we'll admit them with the caveat marking

Page 8831

 1     for identification pending translation.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we're going to inform the

 4     Registry.

 5             Can we have 1D2690.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And while we're waiting, Dr. Hajir --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll give the number for this document.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D81 will be Exhibit D855, marked

10     for identification.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Dr. Hajir, is it true that Ismet Hadzic was a reviewer of your

13     book?

14        A.   Well, only for the military part of it.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             And can we now look at this document quickly.  This is the Ilidza

17     Secret Service of the Security Department, dated the 21st of April, 1994.

18     Can we scroll up.  Scroll up, scroll up, to the end.

19             I want to show you here, after this "Ramovic, Husnija," it says:

20             "At the beginning of the war in Dobrinja, about 140 prominent

21     Serbs were killed, and those who did not want to join the Muslim Army.

22     Those killed were buried near the elementary school Simon Bolivar as

23     unidentified persons.  Ismet Hadzic was in charge of organising and

24     spreading Islam in Dobrinja, and he had three Mujahedin for that who were

25     propagating Islam and the Islamic faith.  Those who attended the school

Page 8832

 1     were won over in different ways, by money, cigarettes, foods, and even

 2     jackets that they were making from sleeping bags received in humanitarian

 3     aid ..."

 4             And so on and so forth:

 5             "It is very difficult to leave Dobrinja because you need to have

 6     permission to leave only issued by Ismet Hadzic."

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Did you know, Mr. Hajir, that at the beginning of the war in

 9     Dobrinja, 140 prominent Serbs were liquidated?

10        A.   I'm hearing of that for the first time.  This is something that

11     people -- or the person that I was staying with, he would have told me.

12     He kept constantly finding excuses for what they were doing for Serbs.

13     All his friends were Serbs, practically, so I'm sure he would have told

14     me that.

15        Q.   Who are you talking about; Ismet Hadzic?

16        A.   No, no, no, this person with whom I was staying with my family.

17     He would have known about it first and would have told me about it.

18     Believe me, Radovan, this is the first time that I'm hearing of this.

19        Q.   Did you hear of a number of private prisons in Dobrinja, and did

20     you perhaps have the opportunity of going to examine any of the people

21     who were imprisoned there?

22        A.   I know only of one prison.  It was called Sunce.  It was probably

23     some shop called Sunce, so the prison was in the cellar.  Somebody asked

24     me, but I really didn't want to go, so I sent one doctor who went to

25     examine them.  I recommended to the doctor that he's nice, that he should

Page 8833

 1     help those people there.  As for me, I really couldn't stand to look at

 2     that.  It was quite sad in Dobrinja, and I couldn't bear to look at all

 3     of that.  I hope you understand.

 4        Q.   Do you know that there was an atomic shelter in Dobrinja and that

 5     it was a prison, and that also in the Simon Bolivar School, in the

 6     cellar, there was a prison, in the cellar of the Privredna Bank, there

 7     was a prison, and in the neighbouring settlement, there was also a prison

 8     for the Dobrinja Serbs?

 9        A.   Radovan, what I am telling you -- what you have heard, believe

10     me, is probably not all true.  I wish you had spent at least one day in

11     Dobrinja with us, and then all the humanity, which you are not lacking

12     in, would have been woken up.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last thing

14     he said.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   All right, I understand.  But then they were hiding that from

17     you?

18        A.   How could they have been hiding that from me?  I mean, it could

19     have been one person.  There were all these people coming.  Somebody must

20     have said -- would have said something.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Doctor, the interpreters couldn't hear you out when

22     you said:

23             "I wish you had spent at least one day in Dobrinja with us, and

24     then all the humanity, which you are not lacking in, would have been

25     woken up."

Page 8834

 1             What did you say after that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After seeing things there, it was

 3     very sad.  These were people without hope, people -- I didn't see anybody

 4     laughing or smiling there, you know.  There was a lot of sadness.  It was

 5     very sad to look at people getting killed.  There wasn't anyone who

 6     hadn't lost someone, who hadn't been affected by something, was lacking

 7     something.  I mean, it was awful.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             I take it, Mr. Karadzic, that you will be continuing tomorrow.

10     How much longer do you need?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be a good idea if I could

12     get at least an hour.  I thought we could get one more half hour tonight.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, too.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it is good for your health, either.

16             It's time to adjourn for today.  You will have about an hour

17     tomorrow.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Thank you, Dr. Hajir.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

21             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies for Ms. Sutherland.  On my part,

22     there's a mistake.  I checked again, and the 65 ter 9948 was not

23     admitted.  So we'll admit it as an associated exhibit.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Doctor, we'll adjourn for today and resume tomorrow

Page 8835

 1     at 9.00.  Probably you were explained by the Court Deputy, but in the

 2     meantime, during the course of your testimony you are not supposed to

 3     discuss with anybody else about your testimony.

 4             Do you understand, Doctor?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

 7             I thank all the staff who co-operated to accommodate the trial

 8     situation.  I appreciate it very much.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

12                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.