Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9165

 1                           Monday, 29 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.

 7             If the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  KDZ310

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could make yourself comfortable.

13             Before you begin, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.  Sir, I have some words

14     for you.

15             We are very glad to have you here to testify in these proceedings

16     today, and I would like to advise you that the Chamber is aware of some

17     of the concerns and difficulties you have raised concerning your

18     testimony.

19             However, I would like to advise you, firstly, that you have been

20     granted protective measures, which continue to be in effect in these

21     proceedings, and that your identity as a witness before the Tribunal will

22     not be known to the public.  Should you feel, at any time either during

23     or after your testimony, that your protective measures have been

24     compromised, you should inform us, through the Victims and Witnesses

25     Section.

Page 9166

 1             Secondly, the Tribunal endeavours to ensure that your testimony

 2     is given with the least possible stress to yourself, and the Victims and

 3     Witnesses Section is ready to assist you should you have any problems in

 4     that regard while you are here.

 5             However, as you are aware, these are serious criminal

 6     proceedings, and both the Prosecution and the accused, Mr. Karadzic, have

 7     the right to ask you questions, which you should answer to the best of

 8     your ability and as concisely as possible.

 9             We hope to be able to finish your testimony today, but it is

10     possible that we will need to complete it tomorrow afternoon.

11             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

14        Q.   Good morning, sir.  During your testimony, you will be referred

15     to as Witness KDZ310, and nobody will use your name.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 90143 displayed,

17     but not broadcast, just displayed on the screens here in the courtroom,

18     the first page.

19        Q.   Sir, if you look at this page, is that your name on this page and

20     also your birth -- date of birth?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And looking at the signatures at the bottom, is there your

23     signature at the bottom and also the date of the amalgamated statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can we move into private

Page 9167

 1     session just for a very brief moment?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

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Page 9168

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay.

 9        Q.   The information you provided in the statement and the testimony

10     that we just mentioned were amalgamated in a statement, and we just saw

11     the first page of it; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, correct.

13        Q.   And did you have the opportunity to review this statement and

14     sign it yesterday?

15        A.   Yes, I looked at it yesterday and changed some words, made some

16     corrections, and then I signed it.

17        Q.   Can you affirm that the amalgamated statement accurately reflects

18     the information you provided in the past?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Witness, would you provide the same information to the Court if

21     questioned on these same matters here today?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender

24     Exhibit -- 65 ter 90143 for admission under Rule 92 ter.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 9169

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be admitted as Exhibit P1937, under

 2     seal.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we will provide a redacted

 4     public version shortly, because this document needs to be under seal.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be given Exhibit P1938.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             With the Court's permission, I would now read a brief summary of

 8     the witness's evidence, as admitted.

 9             During the relevant period, the witness lived in Sarajevo and was

10     a soldier in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

11             The witness became aware that, as the Yugoslav People's Army

12     withdrew from Slovenia and parts of Croatia, huge quantities of weapons

13     and ammunition were transported to Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that as

14     early as September 1991, weapons were delivered to Serbian Democratic

15     Party members at JNA barracks.  He observed that the JNA had established

16     artillery positions around Sarajevo by 6th of April, 1992.

17             The witness recalled the political tension in Sarajevo before the

18     conflict.  According to his observations, speeches of politicians,

19     including the accused, and anti-Muslim and anti-Croat propaganda had an

20     effect on the ordinary people and caused hatred against non-Serbs.

21     Non-Serbs were described as a threat to the Serbs and other ethnic -- and

22     that ethnic divisions would be necessary.

23             The witness observed that Serbs took control over Grbavica in

24     mid-May 1992 without any resistance and that non-Serbs were subjected to

25     restrictive and repressive measures, abuse and crimes.  They were

Page 9170

 1     expelled, and their departments [sic] looted.

 2             According to the witness's observations, the military chain of

 3     command and the communication within the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

 4     functioned.

 5             The witness observed the deployment of soldiers with sniper

 6     assignments in various positions in Grbavica.  These soldiers used

 7     specific equipment.  The witness became aware that they targeted

 8     civilians.

 9             The witness observed the shelling of the city from artillery and

10     mortar positions and that the shelling often targeted civilian areas in a

11     non-selective way.

12             According to the witness, detainees from KPD Kula were forced to

13     dig trenches on front-lines.  Some of these detainees were killed while

14     doing so.

15             Your Honour, that concludes the summary, and I would now have a

16     few additional questions of the witness.

17        Q.   Sir, in your statement, and I refer here to the paragraphs 3 to

18     6, you describe the tension between the various groups in -- ethnic

19     groups in 1991 and 1992.  Do you recall this?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now like to have Exhibit --

22     65 ter 11928 brought up on the screen, and this can be broadcast.

23             And as it is coming up:  It is a report from "Javnost" with the

24     title "Memorial for the Souls of Innocents" of the 26th of January, 1991,

25     about a ceremony held in the village of Vrhpraca, at the base of the

Page 9171

 1     Jahorina mountain, remembering the killing of Serbs and the deportation

 2     of others to Jasenovac during World War II.

 3             And if we can zoom in on the B/C/S, on the text, below the first

 4     picture.  Yes.

 5        Q.   Witness, did you have an opportunity to study this document

 6     before coming into the courtroom today?

 7        A.   Yes, yesterday.

 8        Q.   Are you aware of --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

10             I take it this witness was given the voice distortion as well.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So it is important to turn off the microphone when

13     he's due to speak, so in order to avoid the overlap.  So please make

14     sure, before -- it's difficult.  I'll make sure, but on your part, as

15     well, please confirm that the other's microphone is off, the red light

16     is -- when the red light is gone, and then you may speak.  Do you

17     understand, Mr. Witness.  The red light of other speakers.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where the red light is?

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The red lights you can see here burning on

20     the speaker's ...

21        Q.   Witness, this kind of -- this particular ceremony, did you know

22     about this particular ceremony or about similar ceremonies at that time?

23     And we are talking here now about 1991.

24        A.   Yes, I am aware of that, yes.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we just go to the second page in the

Page 9172

 1     English.  The B/C/S can remain as it is.  Yes.

 2        Q.   And we see here that Mr. Karadzic is also giving a speech and

 3     speaks about the Serbs as the only people in the world who were

 4     persecuted and killed only because they exist, and "that is why we will

 5     no longer allow them to separate us and divide us in three states and

 6     gradually destroy us."

 7             Witness, what Mr. Karadzic is saying here, have you heard him

 8     speak in such terms at occasions?

 9        A.   Yes, I have.

10        Q.   And did these ceremonies and what was said here, did it have an

11     effect on the people that you had communication with?

12        A.   Yes, it did have an effect on inter-ethnic relations, and, if

13     necessary, I can explain what I mean.

14             THE ACCUSED:  The witness isn't in Serbian.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.  Could you repeat

16     what you said?

17             THE ACCUSED:  I am not getting in my ears the Serbian of witness.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we try it again?  Could you answer your last

19     question, kindly, again, Mr. Witness?

20             Shall we repeat the last question and answer?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

22        Q.   Witness, did -- these kind of events and what was said, did it

23     have an effect on inter-ethnic relations?  And if so, can you explain in

24     what way?

25        A.   Yes, it did have an effect.  And if needed, I can explain that,

Page 9173

 1     what kind of effect that it had.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             I noticed Mr. Karadzic saying to the effect that he does not get

 5     the Serbian version.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             THE ACCUSED:  I hear only translation, but I have here the

 8     witness just physically.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a quick adjournment in order to look

10     into the matter?

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE KWON:  So let's try again.

13             THE ACCUSED:  Just say anything.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you say, "Good morning"?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic, do you hear me now?

16     If I may begin?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic, do you think we have to

18     repeat the last question and answer?  No.

19             THE ACCUSED:  No.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.  Thank you.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22        Q.   Sir, would you -- would you just explain, in more details, what

23     effect it had?

24        A.   It is stated there that only the Serbian people are the people

25     who were killed, persecuted, and tortured in World War II.  But in truth,

Page 9174

 1     all the three peoples suffered casualties, and all three peoples were

 2     victimised, they were persecuted and tortured.  I cannot really give you

 3     any figures here.  Specifically, in this text, the number of casualties

 4     is given, and the way it is stated, it incites inter-ethnic hatred,

 5     stating that only there are members of the Serbian ethnic group, and they

 6     determined the number of victims.

 7             There is an example.  For example, Mr. Josipovic, the current

 8     president of Croatia, and the current president of Serbia, Mr. Tadic,

 9     went to Vukovar.  The victims there -- actually, they honoured the

10     victims in quite a different way, a way that can pave the way for

11     reconciliation between the two peoples.  An apology was given for the

12     casualties.  It wasn't just the Croats that were present to mark that

13     occasion.  In this case, there were Serbs who were speaking about Serbian

14     victims, and this is something that incites ethnic hatred and does not

15     make living together, a common life, possible.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

17     exhibit into evidence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, is this "Javnost" a newspaper?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is a daily newspaper,

20     "Borba," or some other Belgrade daily.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could we show the witness the top left of this page.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it says "Javnost."  That is

23     some kind of daily newspaper, "Javnost," but I'm not familiar with it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             It will be admitted.

Page 9175

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1939, Your Honours.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Can we now have the Exhibit -- 65 ter 01009 on the screen, and it

 4     can also be broadcast.

 5             And as it is coming up:  It is an interview with Mr. Karadzic

 6     from "Nasa Borba" of the 16th of March, 1992.

 7        Q.   And as it is coming up:  Sir, do you know the publication

 8     "Nasa Borba," and is it a newspaper?

 9        A.   Yes, I think it's a daily newspaper.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we also have the English?  Yes.

11        Q.   We see here it's an interview of 16 March 1992.  Did you -- 1992,

12     yes.  And as it is coming up:  Did you have an opportunity to study this

13     document when you came here to testify?

14        A.   I had the opportunity yesterday, yes.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we move the B/C/S version a bit so

16     that we can see the beginning -- the beginning of this article.  The

17     English is okay.

18        Q.   If we look at the beginning, Mr. Karadzic says here that:

19             "... the Serbs will never find peace until they have achieved

20     their age-old aspiration of living in one state."

21             Witness, are you aware of this aspiration of Serbs living in one

22     state?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And did you hear Mr. Karadzic say things to this effect?

25        A.   I did.

Page 9176

 1        Q.   And did this have an impact on the inter-ethnic relationship

 2     among the people that lived around you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In which way?

 5        A.   Well, you know, at the time Mr. Karadzic was a charismatic

 6     person, a charismatic figure among the Serbian people, and people trusted

 7     him, and he thought that it was an idea that was achievable.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we have the second page in the English,

 9     while the B/C/S version is actually correct as it is now.

10        Q.   In the next paragraph, Mr. Karadzic speaks about a trend of

11     disorder and chaos that could lead to inter-ethnic and inter-religious

12     war, with hundreds of thousands of dead and hundreds of towns destroyed.

13             Witness, did you hear Mr. Karadzic make such statements?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you give an example?  Do you recall anything in particular?

16        A.   In many TV interviews, but also at the well-known Assembly

17     session, Mr. Karadzic explained what could happen in case there were a

18     war.  That is what the general public knows.  There was a statement made

19     by him that it may happen that a particular people may disappear.  It was

20     the problem between the Serbs and Muslims, they were quite mixed, not the

21     Serbs and Croats, so in that situation one people could disappear.  That

22     was a serious threat to peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23        Q.   And to which people was he referring when speaking of

24     disappearance?

25        A.   The Muslims.

Page 9177

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now have the third page in the

 2     English.  The other one, the B/C/S, is still okay.

 3        Q.   And on the top, Mr. Karadzic refers to maps and that more than

 4     half of all the territory belongs to Serbs, even where they are not in

 5     the majority population.  And then he goes on further to more population

 6     figures and details.

 7             Were you aware that maps were being discussed at that time?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And do you recall that there were also maps in relation to

10     Sarajevo, and do you recall what was indicated in such maps?

11        A.   Yes, I recall that maps of Sarajevo looked very similar to what

12     the ultimate division according to the Dayton Agreement was.

13        Q.   And these maps and the divisions of territories, did these maps

14     and the talks about it have an effect on the population?

15        A.   They did have an effect on the population, of course they did,

16     especially the population that saw itself outside the areas that would

17     belong to a particular people, say Serbs, who saw themselves outside a

18     possible Serb area, according to such maps.  Well, there was a feeling of

19     anxiety among them.

20        Q.   What about the other ethnic groups; what was about -- what about

21     their -- the effect on them?

22        A.   Of course, this had a negative effect on Croats and Muslims, who

23     saw themselves living in the territory of another people or another

24     nation, or, say, Muslims in a Serb territory, or Croats in a Serb

25     territory.  This made people feel unsafe, insecure and uncertain in terms

Page 9178

 1     of what might happen.  At that time, a lot of people were saying that

 2     there might be a war, but what kind of war it would be, well, people were

 3     quite simply afraid.  They were afraid for their families, they were

 4     afraid in terms of their very existence and their survival in that area.

 5     You know, that is a terrible thing.  Croats and Muslims were afraid, and

 6     Serbs were afraid too, of course.  Everybody was afraid.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now move to the seventh page in the

 8     English.  And in relation to the text in B/C/S, we would need to have the

 9     second page and the end of the second page.  I think it has to be -- I'm

10     not sure, but it should be the end of the interview, not -- I think

11     that's what you're showing.  It should be -- yeah.

12        Q.   In the last paragraph, Mr. Karadzic refers to the fact that there

13     are not many unsolved issues with the Croats, but that the Serbs and the

14     Muslims cannot live together, but only beside each other.  Did you hear

15     him say words to this effect?

16        A.   His overall policy, as the top man of the SDS, led in that

17     direction; namely, to prove to both peoples that they can no longer live

18     together.  However, he is not competent at all to decide who is going to

19     live with who and who is going to be married, say, to a Croat woman, a

20     Muslim woman, et cetera, to split up families, to spoil good relations,

21     inter-human relations, as it were.  However, in that case, an effort had

22     to be made in order to lead to a situation that would ultimately result

23     in war.

24             People lived together for years, and we could have gone on living

25     together.  He and other politicians, like Izetbegovic and Kljujic, and no

Page 9179

 1     one, not God Almighty, is competent to decide who is going to live with

 2     who.  Their intellectual and other activities were supposed to take place

 3     in a different area; improving the standard of living.  We could have

 4     competed in the arts, in literature, in sports, not in terms of who could

 5     kill more members of another ethnic group.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

 7     exhibit into evidence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1940, Your Honours.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

11        Q.   Witness, in your statement, you described the take-over of

12     Grbavica in mid-May 1992, and you spoke about the abuse of non-Serbs and

13     the fear that it caused.  And I refer here to the paragraphs 14 as well

14     as 18 to 21.

15             Can you give us the time-frame when this abuse and the expulsion

16     of non-Serbs happened in Grbavica?

17        A.   This happened immediately when the soldiers came; I mean, when

18     they came to Grbavica.

19        Q.   And did it stop at some point in time?

20        A.   No, it did not.

21        Q.   And when you refer to soldiers, after the soldiers came, does

22     that mean -- who did the expulsion of non-Serbs; the soldiers, or police,

23     or just others?

24        A.   Both soldiers and the civilian and military police took part in

25     this.

Page 9180

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 2             Your Honour, this concludes the examination-in-chief, and I would

 3     now request that the associated exhibits referred to in the amalgamated

 4     statement be admitted into evidence.  Some of them need to be under seal,

 5     and I can state it as follows:  Items 20266 need to be under seal.  It's

 6     a pseudonym sheet.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that all the exhibits, except for the item

 8     numbered as 40292B, are under seal.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, good.  Thank you.  Then I

10     don't need to go through all of them.

11             We will produce -- we will produce redacted versions of the

12     photos and the maps, because all that needs to be done is to redact the

13     signatures.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So the redacted version for the photocopy of --

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I will leave it in the hands of the Court Deputy to

17     consult with you, what public versions --

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- will be produced in each item.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's mostly -- it's basically the photos and

21     the maps.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Are there any objections from the Defence?

24             So all of them will be admitted and given numbers by the

25     Court Deputy and circulated to the parties.

Page 9181

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 5             Before you begin, I forgot to mention at the outset that we are

 6     sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with Judge Lattanzi being away due to

 7     her personal urgent matters.

 8             And today we'll sit until 2.30, if necessary, with two half-hour

 9     breaks.  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Good morning to all.  I hope that we haven't forgotten each other

12     over these past three weeks.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   I wish to tell you, at the very outset, that this Defence

17     respects all the participants involved and all witnesses, so you really

18     have no reason for concern or anxiety.  We never attack witnesses.  We

19     only try to shed more light, with the assistance of witnesses, in terms

20     of what they know, what they saw, what their immediate knowledge is, and

21     what they learned through the media.  So please let us focus on what your

22     direct knowledge is.

23             The learned Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff put quite a few political

24     questions to you, quite a few political questions to you, so I would like

25     to ask you where you got all that knowledge.  Were you a member of a

Page 9182

 1     party, or some other particular team, or did you have some other sources

 2     of information?

 3        A.   No, I was not a member of any party, national or other, never in

 4     my life.  Information, I got from my very own life.  I lived in the area.

 5     I tried to obtain information impartially by establishing my own views on

 6     the basis of Belgrade's, Sarajevo's, Zagreb's, and other media, and

 7     talking to different people, Muslims, Croats and Serbs.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, there's a further complication.  In addition to

 9     waiting for his light being turned off, could you put a pause between the

10     question and the answer, because your answer is to be translated by the

11     interpreters.  So could you wait -- could you put a pause, during which

12     time the question can be fully translated.  Thank you.

13             Let's move on.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I understand.  However,

15     I do not see the light on Mr. Karadzic's microphone.

16             JUDGE KWON:  One tip I can give to you is that you may take a

17     look at the transcript.  When the transcript stops, that means the

18     translation is over.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Did you have insight into some confidential materials or

22     documents of any one of the parties involved or any state organs?

23        A.   No, no.  I am an ordinary person.  I was not involved in politics

24     at all.  I did not work in any state institutions, I was not in any state

25     organs.  I was an ordinary citizen in that city.

Page 9183

 1        Q.   Thank you.  See, I'm making -- I'm making a pause, too, just so

 2     you know.

 3             So you observed the political situation -- or, rather, you did

 4     not observe the political situation from the point of view of an expert.

 5     You did not really want to make an analysis.  You simply gained

 6     impressions on the basis of the media.  Am I right?

 7        A.   You're right, in part.  As I've already said, I did not gain

 8     impressions and knowledge only from the media.  I gained impressions and

 9     knowledge from conversations with people, as I've already said.  Some of

10     these people knew more about politics and were more involved in that.  I

11     was not involved in politics then, and I'm not involved in politics now.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Therefore, I think what is going to be far more

13     important for these proceedings is what you directly saw, and that is

14     what I am going to focus on during your examination.  Do you agree with

15     that?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Nevertheless, before we move on to those questions and some

18     general questions, may I ask you whether you remember that in the

19     Communist period, it was forbidden to perform religious rites at sites

20     where people were victims of political persecution during the war on an

21     ethnic basis?

22        A.   There was no prohibition, specifically.  However, it was not in

23     that sense that these victims were being commemorated.  Perhaps you're

24     right, from that point of view.  However, it was not only Serbs who were

25     not allowed to do that, but all the peoples involved, all three.

Page 9184

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we agree that all three peoples did have victims?

 2     However, do you agree that during the Second World War,

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina was part of the independent state of Croatia?

 4        A.   A larger part of Bosnia-Herzegovina was part of the independent

 5     state of Croatia.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I think that all of it was in the independent

 7     Republic of Croatia.  You are right when you say that all three peoples

 8     suffered.  However, do you agree that it was only the independent state

 9     of Croatia that had a racist legislation that legalised the killing of

10     Serbs, Jews and Roma, and that no other state anywhere in Europe had

11     that, except for Germany and Croatia?  They had laws that permitted

12     racist killings?

13        A.   Well, I'll tell you, for example, that Ante Pavelic and

14     Milan Nedic regularly paid pensions to all citizens in the territory

15     under their control, whereas in your state, Muslims did not receive

16     pensions.  Is that not a racist law?

17        Q.   Witness, I'm not asking you that.  Serbs didn't receive pensions

18     either.

19        A.   That's not true.

20        Q.   What I'm asking you is whether you agree or whether you deny that

21     in respect of that speech of mine during that commemoration, when I said

22     that the Serbs were victimised because they were Serbs, are you denying

23     that the independent state of Croatia had legalised killing on racial

24     grounds of Serbs, Jews and Roma?

25        A.   I am not aware of the existence of strict laws.  I know that

Page 9185

 1     Serbs were being killed, but I don't know whether there were such laws

 2     that actually said, in writing, that it was permissible to kill Serbs.  I

 3     don't know.  Maybe that was the case, but I don't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In relation to the interview in "Borba," did you

 5     notice that it was the 16th of March of 1992, that that's when I gave

 6     that interview, that is, two days before the 18th of March, when the

 7     Lisbon Agreement was approved by the Serbs, Croats and Muslims of Bosnia?

 8        A.   I did not pay attention to the date.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  At that point in time, did all Serbs live in one

10     state?

11        A.   They did not.

12        Q.   Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Slovenes, Macedonians, did they all not

13     live in one state?  Were they all not constituent peoples of Yugoslavia,

14     living in a single state, until it was broken up?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   But did they not all live in Yugoslavia, in a single state?

17        A.   In Yugoslavia, they did, but they were not all in a single state.

18        Q.   Yugoslavia was a single state.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Please, let us pause.

21             I'm just asking you whether, in 1918, Serbs achieved that

22     objective.  Croats, Muslims, Serbs, did they all not attain this same

23     objective, did they all not live in the same state?

24        A.   I'm not sure that that was everybody's objective.  I'm not sure

25     that that was the objective of all the peoples involved.

Page 9186

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned my speech, and you say that I said that

 2     the Muslims would disappear.  This is a speech made on the 14th or

 3     15th of October, when what was being voted upon was independence or the

 4     Serbian vote against independence.  Did I not say that there was a danger

 5     involved for Muslims, because if there were to be a war, Muslims could

 6     not defend themselves from Serbs and Croats; isn't that right?

 7        A.   That is not right.

 8        Q.   I am saying:  Are you referring to that particular speech of

 9     mine?

10        A.   Yes, I'm referring to that particular speech of yours.

11        Q.   Just one more question in relation to the examination-in-chief.

12             You said that as for Muslims and Croats who would stay in the

13     Serbian constituent unit, they would feel bad about it, and I can

14     understand that.  However, can you understand that a million and a half

15     Serbs feel bad about being separated from Yugoslavia and living in

16     Alija's Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say, the same feelings that you

17     recognise among the Muslims and Croats?  Do you accept that the same kind

18     of fears and anxieties were felt by Serbs if they were to be separated

19     from Yugoslavia and if they were to live in a sovereign, unitary

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina under Muslim domination?

21        A.   First of all, at that time no one said that Bosnia-Herzegovina

22     would be a unitary state.  These are your dark expectations.  So this is

23     not Izetbegovic's Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He is not the owner of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He cannot behave like the owner of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina or the owner of those three peoples.  So these are

Page 9187

 1     just dark expectations.

 2             In life, there are problems, and problems are resolved in life.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just intervene.

 4             The transcript does not reflect that the witness said that he

 5     knows that we, the Serbs, did not find a unitary Bosnia to be suitable,

 6     that it did not suit us.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you confirm that for the transcript, that you said that a

 9     unitary Bosnia did not suit the Serbs?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  However, do you accept that on the 16th of March, two

12     days before the agreement was concluded, we have been conducting talks

13     for about ten months, negotiations on what the future Bosnia would be

14     like, and we had accepted for Bosnia to leave Yugoslavia on the condition

15     that it is not unitary?

16        A.   That's the first time I hear of that, that you ever agreed to

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina leaving Yugoslavia.  I had never heard of that before,

18     on the condition that it is not unitary.  I mean, I've never heard of

19     this.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That's why I thought that this line of questioning

21     about political topics was a bit unfair on you, because you were not

22     really involved in that kind of thing.  Do you agree that the essence of

23     the Lisbon Agreement was that Bosnia would be independent, but that it

24     would have three constituent units?

25        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I'm not that knowledgeable about politics, and I

Page 9188

 1     cannot really give you answers of a decided nature to such questions.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  But during the examination-in-chief, you were asked

 3     about preeminently political topics about which you had established your

 4     own views and opinions, especially on the basis of what you heard in the

 5     media and what you viewed in the coverage of Assembly sessions.  On the

 6     basis of that, did you make some conclusions about political life?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 8             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, my questions were actually just

10     focusing on the effect that such political speeches were held and maps

11     were shown on the people that were living around the witness.  I didn't

12     ask him questions of a political nature.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That's true, but also the witness mentioned his

14     speech at the Assembly sessions.  So with that caveat, I think the

15     witness can answer the question now.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Let me repeat this.  Witness, you watched Assembly sessions on

18     television because they were broadcast, and on the basis of what you saw,

19     you made your own assessments on how things were being interpreted in the

20     public?

21        A.   Again, you are reducing my answer only to the media, and now

22     you're also reducing it only to Assembly sessions.  I am a communicative

23     person.  I told you that I talked to many people, Serbs, Croats and

24     Muslims, who are a bit more knowledgeable, as far as politics are

25     concerned, more knowledgeable than I am, and you are trying to make me

Page 9189

 1     say that I formed my opinions on the basis of the media.  And the media

 2     at the time were the ones that were poisoning the inter-ethnic relations.

 3     If someone was an objective observer, he had to read between the lines,

 4     as it were, and to try to discern the truth.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you watch the Assembly session on the 24th and

 6     25th of January, 1992, before the referendum took place?

 7        A.   I am not familiar with what that particular session was.  I

 8     watched Assembly sessions from time to time, but I cannot say that I

 9     watched all of them and throughout.  Maybe I did watch that particular

10     session.  Perhaps you could remind me of what happened, but I cannot

11     remember just like that.

12        Q.   Well, that's a session that is well known because Cengic and I

13     went to the rostrum together and reached an agreement that lasted for

14     about two hours.  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I call up D87.  This is a

17     document that contains that speech of mine.  The Serbian page is 104 and

18     the English page is 100.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While we're waiting :  Do you remember that then I proposed that

21     we wait with the referendum and for Bosnia to be regionalised, and then

22     that we should have the referendum, the Serbs should have the referendum,

23     and then Cengic, as the deputy prime minister, agreed to that?

24        A.   I agree -- I remember that he agreed to something.  I don't

25     remember what your proposal was, but I do remember that at that point in

Page 9190

 1     time, you were close to some kind of agreement.  I do remember that.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             This is the beginning of that speech.  Can we look at page 106 in

 4     the Serbian and 102 in the English, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'm going to start reading from the second paragraph:

 7             "Please, you cannot justify your wish to impose on us the

 8     independent Bosnia-Herzegovina, where you will rule over us, because we

 9     are not imposing anything on you.  We are not asking that you remain in

10     Yugoslavia.  We are asking that Bosnia be transformed so that the Serbs

11     maintain strong links with Yugoslavia, that Croats are not in any kind of

12     link with Yugoslavia but have strong links with Croatia, and that Muslims

13     have links both with Croatia and with Yugoslavia to the degree that they

14     want; that is to say, a Serbian federation or whatever.  It does not have

15     to be called Yugoslavia."

16             And then a little bit later:

17             "The only way to do something together is to reorganise Bosnia

18     and Herzegovina first so that it is acceptable to all three peoples.  We

19     are not going to impose anything on one another."

20             Do you remember and do you agree that this was a reasonable

21     position that opens the way for agreement and to avoid a conflict?

22        A.   I do remember that there were constructive proposals from all

23     three sides.  However, the three of you were unable to reach any kind of

24     agreement.  Actually, I had the sense that you could have spoken for

25     three more years together and you wouldn't have reached any kind of

Page 9191

 1     agreement.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the Serbian page 107

 3     and the English page 103 now, please.

 4        Q.   I'm going to continue:

 5             "We will not impose anything on one another.  We are not going to

 6     stop.  We will work around the clock until we achieve such state

 7     organisation and such form which all three nations would be able to put

 8     their signature to, both Croats, Serbs and Muslims.  Then we will hold a

 9     referendum that can be finished in 15 days.  Gentlemen, that is the only

10     way we can avoid an unwanted effect, that people calm down so that they

11     can start living normally at last.  Believe me, we have no influence over

12     war or peace.  The situation is very often out of control, and it happens

13     always or very often that we could have control over such situations.

14             "Gentlemen, all of you, including me, can picture now what would

15     happen if, God forbid, unrests would start now or inter-ethnic and

16     religious war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We could draw that on the

17     board.  Serbs would run away from Muslim areas, Muslims from the Serbian

18     areas, and Croats would go to their areas.  There would be shooting on

19     the way, destruction of towns.  There would be blood.  And where would we

20     find ourselves then?  Serbs would be in Serbian areas, Muslims in the

21     Muslim areas, and Croats in the Croatian areas, fully homogeneous.  And

22     what would we have to do?  We would again have to sit down and agree and

23     place all three signatures on that agreement, because without all three

24     signatures, there is no solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina."

25             Witness, did this actually happen, that I said would happen

Page 9192

 1     before the Assembly if no agreement was reached?

 2        A.   Well, a similar thing did happen, but I'm not sure what you built

 3     such dark thoughts on at that time, that there would be so much bloodshed

 4     and killing.  It means that you already had some kind of perception about

 5     what sort of things would happen.

 6        Q.   Do you agree -- would you agree that a politician has to have

 7     perception, and to be able to predict what would happen, and to be very

 8     familiar with the situation in order to be able to make any predictions?

 9     Could anybody be a politician at all without being able to predict

10     anything, not only keeping in mind World War II but also the mood among

11     the masses?

12        A.   Well, that is one thing.  But having such dark predictions and

13     thoughts about killings at that scale, that is something else.  I didn't

14     hear about such dark predictions on the other two sides.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree -- yes, I have to make some pauses.

16             Do you agree that only the war that settled down or quietened

17     down at the beginning of that month gave me an idea about what would

18     happen in Bosnia, which was much more mixed in terms of population than

19     Croatia was, as to what would happen in Bosnia if the war were to break

20     out?  I'm talking about the war in Croatia which had been soothed or

21     calmed in the beginning of January or February 1992.

22        A.   And that is precisely why you should have used all of your mental

23     and physical efforts to stop that from happening.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, we agree there.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at Serbian page 108 and

Page 9193

 1     the English page 104.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 3        Q.   I'm going to read this paragraph:

 4             "Therefore, let us make -- let us make a Bosnia-Herzegovina the

 5     way it can be made, that Croats in every moment --"

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I have doubts whether you have to read out all those

 7     passages; just you can introduce the crux of it.  The witness can read

 8     it, we can read it.  So think about a method in terms of reducing the

 9     reading-out time.

10             Please move on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I just

12     wanted this paragraph where you can see what my position was in relation

13     to Croats, where I say:

14             "Let us create Bosnia-Herzegovina in the way it can be, that

15     Croats at every moment are not lost for Croatia, that they have links,

16     their representatives in Zagreb as well as their representatives in

17     Sarajevo."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you recall that now Croats from Bosnia can vote in Croatia and

20     they vote in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well?

21        A.   I don't think that that is quite right, that they can both vote

22     in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Croatia.

23        Q.   And did they exercise that right, even though you think that that

24     is not quite right?  That is what they want and that is how they do

25     things?

Page 9194

 1        A.   Well, that is what they do, but that doesn't make it right.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like to conclude with this topic:  Are

 3     these efforts to reach a solution, as you said earlier?  You said that

 4     all three of us or all three leaders -- you are thinking of the three

 5     parties, the three leaders, the three ethnic communities -- was this an

 6     effort to come to a solution, all the more so because Muhamed Cengic, as

 7     you recall, had accepted that, and there was the conviction that there

 8     would be the regionalisation first and then the referendum?

 9        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

10        Q.   At the end, Cengic says:

11             "Sir, we agreed like this, and let us conclude together, the two

12     of us, let us do that before all of these people."

13             So Mr. Cengic accepted that, and then after the break somebody

14     intervened for that agreement to fall through.

15             So had we regionalised Bosnia-Herzegovina and held the referendum

16     together, and had received what Ambassador Cutileiro had recommended and

17     what was finally granted at Dayton, would that have been a solution

18     without bloodshed and without war?

19        A.   I'm not sure.

20        Q.   All right.  We are now going to move to things that you could

21     have seen.  I'm going to go through these questions briefly.

22             You were in the JNA for 11 months; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Are you a cook, by your specialty, and did you have any

25     additional specialties?

Page 9195

 1        A.   Can you please remind me what this military specialty means,

 2     "Ves," V-e-s.

 3        Q.   "Ves," I don't know exactly.  I think it's your specialty,

 4     occupational military specialty.

 5        A.   No, I was -- I was a quarter-master.  I was in that military

 6     service.

 7        Q.   But in your "Ves," V-e-s, you would have been a cook?

 8        A.   I did not have the job of a cook in the army.

 9        Q.   All right.  Well, I read somewhere that that was your training.

10             Is it correct that during those 11 months, you had general

11     training in the period of three to five months?

12        A.   We had training for three months, training to be cooks.  You are

13     correct there.

14        Q.   And did you go through military training, which included

15     professional training, physical training, and political training?

16        A.   No, we didn't have any physical training.

17        Q.   The military professional part had to do with personal and

18     collective weaponry up to the level of platoon and a company, tactical

19     training, the actions of individuals in combat, and then specialist

20     training on the basis of the occupational specialty; is that true?

21        A.   Yes, we had short infantry training, familiarisation with

22     weapons, and then in the meantime also cooking skills.

23        Q.   Thank you.  As part of your political training and education, you

24     covered the socio-political system, international relations, and moral

25     training?

Page 9196

 1        A.   I don't recall exactly.  It was political and morale training,

 2     that's what it was called.  Probably it did include all of those things.

 3     I don't remember.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  As part of that, you also covered international

 5     relations, International Humanitarian Law, military -- Laws of War and so

 6     on; is that correct?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Well, then, that would have been the only unit that would have

 9     not had that in the JNA?

10        A.   I don't recall any kind of training or lectures on international

11     relations or International Humanitarian Law.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And did you receive the Rules of Service of the JNA?

13        A.   What are you specifically thinking of?

14        Q.   After training, did you get a booklet of the rules that every

15     soldier, military man, would need to know?

16        A.   What is a booklet?

17        Q.   It's a small training manual, a manual.

18        A.   No, we didn't get anything like that.

19        Q.   All right.  Well, that, again, would be a singular case.

20        A.   There were 80 of us in the company.  I am not the only one that

21     didn't get that.  The Rules of Service were mentioned, but this booklet

22     that you referred to is something that none of us were given.  I'm not

23     that senile to have forgotten that.  I had been issued a booklet, I would

24     have had a booklet.

25        Q.   Are you familiar with the Rules of Service in the JNA during your

Page 9197

 1     training?

 2        A.   To a certain degree, this was discussed.  I couldn't really tell

 3     you exactly.  Rules of Service were referred to frequently.

 4        Q.   Witness, the conduct of a soldier is based on the Rules of

 5     Service, and if Rules of Service are violated, you have to accept the

 6     consequences.  So you had to have been informed about the Rules of

 7     Service in the JNA; is that so or not?

 8        A.   We were probably informed about it.  We were learning about the

 9     Rules of Service, although the commanders, themselves, did not strictly

10     adhere to these Rules of Service in the ideal way as you would think.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Then you were transferred to the reserve forces.  You

12     received your military booklet, your combat wartime assignment, but you

13     were not on the schedule according to any other occupational specialty;

14     is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Luckily, that was true.

16        Q.   Do you remember that people who were summoned for exercises

17     frequently took their uniforms, gas masks, and some of them even their

18     infantry weaponry home with them?

19        A.   I'm not aware that they had their infantry weapons with them.

20     That would be left in the barracks.  The weapons were not taken home.  As

21     for the uniforms and the gas masks, yes, some people did have them at

22     home.  I'm not aware that anyone actually had weapons at home, though.

23        Q.   Thank you.  When you reported to the military at Grbavica, you

24     handed your military booklet to them, and for a short period of time they

25     kept it, for a few days, and they then returned it to you; is that

Page 9198

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So it was quite clear, from the military booklet,

 4     that you are a soldier who had gone through training and that you were in

 5     the reserve forces; is that correct?

 6        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 7        Q.   Having seen your military booklet, it was clear to them that you

 8     had served your military term of duty, that you were a trained soldier,

 9     and that you had been transferred to the reserve forces?

10        A.   Yes, you could have seen that from the military booklet.  There

11     was a stamp indicating that I had completed my regular term of duty in

12     the JNA.  You could see that.  You could see the military post, the place

13     where I served my term of duty, and so on and so forth.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that the main reason -- actually,

15     another question first.

16             Would you agree that the national parties managed to overthrow

17     Communists from power in a kind of partnership or a coalition, and that

18     before the elections, those three parties agreed?

19        A.   I'm sorry.  May I just take a short break?

20             I apologise.  Please forgive me.  Could you please repeat your

21     question, Mr. Karadzic?

22        Q.   Do you agree that the three parties went for elections, with the

23     goal of changing the system, and that together they overthrew the

24     Communists?

25        A.   It wasn't quite clear to me what the goals were of those

Page 9199

 1     nationalist parties.  I, personally, did not like that indication,

 2     national or nationalist.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's be specific.  In your view, what was the reason

 4     for the escalation of tension within the Assembly or in political life?

 5     What was the key event that led to the rising or the increase of

 6     tensions?

 7        A.   There is no key event, in my mind, or a key point in time for

 8     this increase of tensions.  Tensions were getting stronger for a long

 9     series of years.  It's not something that happened suddenly and suddenly

10     there was tension.  Tensions were in Yugoslavia since Slobodan Milosevic

11     came to power in Serbia.  That is the first time that these tensions

12     surfaced, disagreements, different opinions, and so on and so forth.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And I could say now that he came to power because

14     tensions existed before him, but I'm not going to go into that.

15        A.   That is not true.

16        Q.   Let me ask you this, Witness:  Did the secession of two

17     republics, Slovenia and Croatia, and later on Bosnia-Herzegovina as well,

18     was that the main topic and the main event at all Assembly sessions,

19     their secession?

20        A.   Well, you can are omitting to mention that with the arrival of

21     Slobodan Milosevic to power, the existence of two socialist autonomous

22     provinces was brought to an end prior to that.  The Constitution of the

23     SFRY clearly spells out which parts comprised the Socialist Federal

24     Republic of Yugoslavia.  There were six republics and two autonomous

25     provinces.  So the balance had already been disturbed.

Page 9200

 1        Q.   These are political topics.  We will not go into that.

 2        A.   You are the one touching upon politics.  You promised to me that

 3     we would not go into politics, and you constantly lead us that way.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Would you agree, then, that the tensions -- or,

 5     rather, that the mobilisation of reservists in 1991 was linked to the war

 6     in Slovenia and Croatia?

 7        A.   In a certain way, yes, because that condition reflected upon

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the inter-ethnic relations deteriorated

 9     there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that it was mostly Muslims and Croats

11     who refused to attend regular mobilisation exercises or join regular

12     forces, and that only the Serb community remained loyal to the JNA?

13        A.   The Serbs from urban areas also refused to join the JNA.  It was

14     only rural Serbs who joined the army.  The Serbs from Sarajevo were not

15     very keen on going to these exercises and responding to mobilisation.

16     Most of them refused.  There were some who did join, but most of them

17     refused to join.

18        Q.   Thank you.  That would then be described as -- or, rather, that

19     could be expressed with one of our sayings, that a rich man will send a

20     bull to the army, whereas a poor man will send his son.

21             Have you switched your phone off?

22        A.   I thought I did, but apparently I didn't, and I apologise once

23     again.  I switched it off now.

24        Q.   Would you agree with me that huge JNA resources had to be

25     withdrawn from Slovenia, and then later on they withdrew from a large

Page 9201

 1     part of Croatia, that is to say, from the two-thirds of Croatia?

 2        A.   Yes, they did withdraw.

 3        Q.   They withdrew to the remaining parts of Yugoslavia, where they

 4     considered that they needed to defend the territory, to defend that part

 5     of Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   I don't know what considerations they had.

 7        Q.   All right.  Can we now enumerate the facilities held by the JNA,

 8     the infrastructure of the JNA, in Sarajevo and in the vicinity so that we

 9     can see why they had such huge resources there?  And you can just confirm

10     what you know, and what you don't know, just say so.  It was the Command

11     of the 2nd Military District that was headquartered there; right?

12        A.   Yes, in Sarajevo.

13        Q.   The Command of the 4th Corps, barracks in Lukavica, Barracks

14     Viktor Bubanj.  I'm just going to enumerate them, and you can tell me for

15     which ones you disagree.  Viktor Bubanj Barracks, the barracks in

16     Halilovici, Marsal Tito Barracks, Jajce Barracks, barracks in Butile,

17     barracks in Pale, barracks in Pazarici, military factories in Vogosca,

18     Famos Hrasnica, Famos Pale, factory ORAO in Rajlovac, repair workshop in

19     Hadzici.  They also partially owned a factory called Zrat.  Would you

20     agree that all of this was the JNA infrastructure in Sarajevo and in the

21     vicinity?

22        A.   Yes, it was in the vicinity of Sarajevo.  However, that's not

23     where the problem lies.  The problem lies in the fact that it was the

24     weapons that were withdrawn from Slovenia and Croatia that were

25     distributed exclusively to Serbs before the war broke out.  This is

Page 9202

 1     something that I learned during the war from the people who were with me.

 2     That's where the problem lies.

 3        Q.   We will get to that eventually.  Would you agree with me that the

 4     JNA lacked manpower for that amount of weapons and that it had to provide

 5     weapons for its reservists?  And you were one of the reservists.  The JNA

 6     had to ensure that it had enough reservists that it could call upon, if

 7     needed; isn't that right?

 8        A.   That wasn't my impression.

 9        Q.   Do you know that some Croats and some Muslims responded to

10     mobilisation, and that those who did respond had access to weapons?

11        A.   I'm not aware of that.

12        Q.   Do you know that two Croats held senior positions in the Command

13     of Sarajevo Romanija Corps all the way up until the end of the war?

14        A.   Possible.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now let us focus on the chaos that, according to you,

16     ruled in Grbavica.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this time for our break or

18     should I continue?

19             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, we'll take a break.

20             We'll break for half an hour, and we'll resume at 11.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin, do you have something to raise with

24     us before you continue?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 9203

 1             I wish to say I would kindly ask to go into closed session,

 2     please.  Mr. Karadzic, via his questions, indirectly reveals my identity

 3     and my ethnic background, although in the beginning he was warned not to

 4     do that.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session?

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, please, Your Honour.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9204











11  Page 9204 redacted. Private session.















Page 9205

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

25             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 9206

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Let us just explore a bit further this chaotic period in your

 3     neighbourhood.  Is this settlement a part of Novo Sarajevo municipality?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You said that some people gladly responded to the

 6     call to join reserve forces and some other people only pretended to do

 7     that and wore uniforms as though they had joined the reserve forces;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, there was such cases.

10        Q.   Those who faked to have responded, did they also have weapons?

11        A.   Yes, they did.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that in Bosnia, a long time before the

13     war, one could buy, rather cheaply, some weapons, small arms?

14        A.   What do you mean by "small arms"?

15        Q.   Well, I'm referring to a pistol, a rifle, PA -- semi-automatic

16     rifle, and so on.

17        A.   No, it wasn't that easy or cheap to buy it.  It wasn't that

18     easily available for purchase.  It wasn't at each corner, as far as I

19     know.

20        Q.   Now, let's see what other places people could procure weapons

21     from, other than the JNA and the police.  Is it true that local communes,

22     or factories, et cetera, had their own Territorial Defence units and they

23     had their own stocks of weapons?

24        A.   Yes, they did have weapons, but they were kept in the TO

25     warehouses, which were within the JNA warehouses.  So there were no

Page 9207

 1     weapons kept in companies.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that there was some smuggling and that one

 3     could buy a rifle, or a semi-automatic rifle, or a so-called PASP rifle

 4     with a sniper; perhaps not cheaply, but it was available?

 5        A.   No, it's not true that snipers could be purchased, at least not

 6     to my knowledge.  I know that the Serbs used to sell weapons they had

 7     received, the ones that you are mentioning, semi-automatic rifles, rifles

 8     and so on.

 9        Q.   You mentioned a group that had mortars.  Did you say that that

10     group wore cockades as their insignia?

11        A.   I don't remember that they had cockades.  They did wear uniforms,

12     but I'm not sure about cockades.

13        Q.   It's in your statement, and if we have time, we will revert to

14     that.

15             In your statement, you also said -- in your 1997 statement, on

16     page 4, you said that there were no serious preparations for war

17     conducted in Bosnia, even though on page 4 you say:

18             "Naturally, all of these events in Croatia had direct influence

19     on the situation in Bosnia.  In addition to that, it was clear that the

20     authorities were not aware of what was about to happen to us and what

21     grave consequences would ensue.  This is why no serious preparations for

22     war were conducted."

23             Did you know that, nevertheless, there were serious preparations

24     for war conducted, if not by the state, then by the SDA party?

25        A.   I'm not aware of that.

Page 9208

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we have 1D28070.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   While we're waiting for it:  You said that Serbs took Grbavica

 5     without firing a single bullet; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   When you reported, you received a uniform, didn't you?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   You were given weapons and a patch; right?

10        A.   I got a semi-automatic rifle.  What do you mean by "patch"?

11        Q.   Did you get something that would mark your affiliation?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   I think that you said somewhere in your statement that you were

14     given a flag.

15        A.   Later, but not at that moment when I was given weapons.  I think

16     that this patch with a Serb flag was something that we received later.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we have 1D28070.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   If I were to say to you that there were almost 2.000 organised

21     Green Berets of the Patriotic League before the war had broken out, what

22     would you say to that?

23        A.   I don't know about that.

24        Q.   In Novo Sarajevo.  I'm repeating it so that the transcript would

25     reflect it, Novo Sarajevo.

Page 9209

 1             Could you please look at the first page of the document.  It can

 2     be displayed to the public because it has nothing to do with the witness.

 3             You see that General Delic here is providing a survey of the

 4     patriotic forces of the resistance that were there when the aggression

 5     started, as he says.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have two, three, four,

 7     five -- the fifth page of this document.  It's fine in English.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could you please have a look at this highlighted part:

10             "Regional Staff of the Patriotic League, Sarajevo.

11             "Regional Staff of the Patriotic League and Green Berets for the

12     Sarajevo region consolidated and connected organisationally and at the

13     same time subordinated, organised forces of the PO BiH and Green Berets

14     that were formed in all municipalities of the region.  At municipal

15     level, these units, from squad level to company and detachment level,

16     were subordinated to municipal staffs that guided their activities."

17             So here is a review for the different municipalities in the city.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.  I think

19     that it is fine in English.  Actually, no, we need the next page in

20     English too.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] This is the municipality of

22     Novo Sarajevo:

23             "Composition of Municipal Staff of the TO Staff of Novo Sarajevo

24     on the 18th of April, 1992.

25             "Twenty-three active and reserve officers."

Page 9210

 1             And:  "1.730 soldiers."

 2             And the total is 1.753.

 3             "Four detachments.

 4             "Three independent companies.

 5             "Three independent platoons."

 6             As for weapons, they had 450 small arms.

 7             Do you think that this was not reason enough for the Serbs to be

 8     concerned?

 9        A.   I was not there in the army, so I cannot talk to you about that.

10     You know, I was in Grbavica, that's where I was in the area.  What was

11     going on over there, that is something I don't know, so I wouldn't know

12     what was happening on the Serb side had I not been there.  You see, I

13     cannot talk about what happened on the other side.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             Can we go into private session briefly.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9211

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just for the record, Mr. Karadzic, the 65 ter number

 3     of this document is 1D2807, without "0" at the end, and I don't see the

 4     name of General Delic in this document.

 5             Please go on.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right, Excellency.  This was

 7     sent to Delic.  This is a report sent to Delic.  Delic had asked for it

 8     in order to compile a history of the establishment of their army.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You see, Witness, on the 18th of April, this is part of the total

11     preparations of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League.  These

12     preparations started from the 31st of March and then went on to the

13     13th of April.  Then there was this public meeting on the 10th of June, I

14     believe, in 1991.  So I'm not talking about their side and our side.  I'm

15     talking about the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, all of it.  We are going

16     to have a look at the map of that area later, but this is Novo Sarajevo,

17     including Grbavica.

18             Had you known this, would you have been concerned?

19        A.   Well, if it says here that 1.730 soldiers are available and they

20     have only 450 rifles, they're not really very well armed.  It seems that

21     one out of three soldiers had a rifle, one out of three soldiers had a

22     rifle.

23        Q.   Do you agree that you had shifts?  You would work for 12 hours,

24     and then you would be resting for 24 hours; that's what you did most of

25     the time; right?

Page 9212

 1        A.   Most of the time.  Not always, but most of the time.

 2        Q.   So if a rifle remains in the trenches, then every soldier who is

 3     on the front-line has a rifle, because one-third are on the front-line

 4     and two-thirds are not there?

 5        A.   Yes, but then we have 450 armed soldiers, not 1.730.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, this is before the beginning of the war.

 7     This is before the army was established.  That is to say, that they were

 8     already part of the Territorial Defence as an established unit before the

 9     18th of April.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the witness has clearly said

13     that he does not know anything about the other side, what they have and

14     how they were organised, so I don't see that he can be the basis for such

15     a document.  Therefore, the Prosecution objects.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this document speaks about the

17     witness's claims and his knowledge.  If he doesn't know that, he could

18     not have made the claims he did in his statements.  This preeminently has

19     to do with the topics dealt with in the statement and the

20     examination-in-chief.  It shows specifically that the assessment to the

21     effect that the Serbs had no cause for concern there were not true.  As

22     we continue, you will see that there was fighting, heavy fighting at

23     that, in Grbavica, which the witness, mercifully, had not seen.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You put your question in relation to this document,

25     which is already on the record, and you will have another opportunity to

Page 9213

 1     tender this and admit this.  So I don't think this witness is a proper

 2     basis to admit this.  You know the practice.

 3             We'll move on.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

 5        Q.   Then, Mr. Witness, do you realise that you missed a lot if you

 6     did not know that the Patriotic League had almost 2.000 soldiers in your

 7     very own municipality?

 8        A.   As I said, you're talking about 2.000 soldiers, but there are

 9     450 armed soldiers there.  When I say "soldier," I mean a soldier with a

10     rifle.

11        Q.   I just wish to ask you whether your position would have been

12     somewhat different had you been aware of the secret organisation of the

13     Patriotic League.

14        A.   Which position do you mean, specifically?

15        Q.   I read it.  It was on page 4, you thought that no preparations

16     were carried out for the war, whereas I claimed -- the Defence claims

17     that preparations were underway, preparations for war, and that that

18     happened in 103 municipalities.  Out of 109, 103 municipalities had

19     municipal staffs of the Patriotic League established already in the

20     beginning of 1991 and about 100.000 soldiers placed under a command.

21             On page 14, you say there was no resistance in Grbavica, they

22     took it without a single gun-shot being fired.  Now the Defence has to

23     put to you the actual situation as it was.  I'm dealing with your

24     statements now, and I would like to give you this opportunity to realise

25     what the actual situation was.

Page 9214

 1             So I'm asking you whether you realised that in your very own

 2     municipality, there was this secret military organisation called the

 3     Patriotic League and the Green Berets, and it doesn't really matter what

 4     quantities of weapons.

 5        A.   I can tell you, with full responsibilities, that in Grbavica

 6     there was no fighting or there was no resistance before the Serb forces

 7     arrived there.  I'm sure of that 100 per cent.  I saw that with my very

 8     own eyes.  Grbavica is part of Novo Sarajevo.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

10             Can we now have 1D2781.  Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I am going to put this to you now.  It's on the 14th of April

13     that this news agency is reporting that the Public Security building of

14     the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo were transferred to the

15     premises of the Forestry Engineering School Centre at

16     Omladinsko Setaliste:

17             "The goal of such regrouping of this fundamentalist military

18     hoard is control over intersections of Bratstvo-Jedinstvo and Omladinsko

19     Setaliste, intersections at the tram station Pofalici and the

20     surroundings of Grbavica."

21             Do you agree that the municipality of Novo Sarajevo has a Serb

22     majority?

23        A.   You're talking about the population, aren't you?  The

24     municipality of Novo Sarajevo?

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 9215

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see that Muslim policemen were transferred to

 3     the Muslim part of the municipality of Novo Sarajevo and that they

 4     established a new station there with a view to having these intersections

 5     under their control, and that was the situation until the end of the war;

 6     right?

 7        A.   That's not right.  The former Public Security Station is still on

 8     the territory that would later be under their control during the war,

 9     when the war broke out as well.  That is to say that -- that is to say

10     that both locations were on the other side of the Miljacka River.

11        Q.   That just means that the Serbs did not take what these people had

12     left or abandoned; right?

13        A.   No, they did not take it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             The transcript does not reflect that you confirmed that Novo

16     Sarajevo was a municipality with a majority Serb population.  So could

17     you confirm that?

18        A.   I think that the majority population was Serb and that during

19     these first so-called democratic elections, the Serb Democratic party won

20     a majority in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can this document be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Again, we don't see any basis to admit this through

24     this witness, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9216

 1             1D2782, can we have that, please.  The Defence believes that this

 2     speaks of the same topics, but it's on the basis of documents that show

 3     that there had been fighting and that the situation was different from

 4     what the witness had observed.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Have a look at this, Witness.  The 21st of April, this is what

 7     "SRNA" says:

 8             "'SRNA' has found that severe fighting has been carried out since

 9     morning in Sarajevo.  The conflict focus point was previously located in

10     Grbavica area, however, later it spread to other localities in town.  The

11     Muslim paramilitary forces open fire towards positions of Serbian

12     defenders at Vraca from the mortar fire from Hum, as well as from

13     Elektroprivreda building and Sociona [phoen] building where the sniper

14     shooters of the Green Berets are located."

15             Did you see or hear that in April, shells were falling on Vraca

16     and that snipers were operating?

17        A.   I'm not aware of that.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're not going to admit this

19     either; right?

20             JUDGE KWON:  No.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2783, can we have that, please.

22             This is a document, or, rather, agency news, the 25th of April:

23             "'SRNA' has found out that over 1.000 Muslim paramilitary forces

24     launched an attack against the Serb settlement of Vraca from the

25     direction of Zlatiste and Colina Kapa at 1945 hours.  Numerous Muslim

Page 9217

 1     units are also penetrating from the direction of Grbavica.  These units,

 2     in their fierce attack, destroyed Serb houses within a circle around the

 3     Jewish cemetery, as well as above the neighbourhood of Kovaci."

 4             MR. KARADZIC:

 5        Q.   Do you see that Grbavica was in Muslim hands at that point in

 6     time and that they were attacking Vraca from there, and Colina Kapa and

 7     Zlatiste were in their hands too?  And Colina Kapa was under Muslim

 8     control throughout the war, wasn't it?

 9        A.   No, that's not right.  I don't know about Zlatiste belonging to

10     Grbavica.  Perhaps it is the municipality of Sarajevo, but it's not

11     Grbavica.  You know full well what Grbavica is.  Zlatiste is not

12     Grbavica.  Colina Kapa is not Grbavica either.  You keep trying to put

13     some different regions under the heading of "Grbavica," but that is

14     simply not the case.

15        Q.   Perhaps I was too fast and I was not paying enough attention.

16     The Serb neighbourhood of Vraca, do we agree that it is a Serb

17     neighbourhood?

18        A.   We do not agree.  Why would Vraca be a Serb neighbourhood?

19        Q.   Is Vraca inhabited by over 80 per cent of Serbs?

20        A.   No, especially not since the new buildings were built in the

21     Petrovacka Street area.  So it's not really true that there are over

22     80 per cent of Serbs at Vraca.

23        Q.   How about 50 per cent?  Were there more than 50 per cent of Serbs

24     there?

25        A.   That's possible.

Page 9218

 1        Q.   I am saying, on the basis of this item, that it was attacked from

 2     the direction of Zlatiste and Colina Kapa, from the direction of

 3     Grbavica.  I'm not saying that that is Grbavica, but do you agree that

 4     Colina Kapa throughout the whole period remained in Muslim hands?

 5        A.   Yes, I do, but there were never attacks staged from the Grbavica

 6     area.  That is not true.  That would imply attacks from the other

 7     Miljacka bank, which -- that, what you're saying, and that's just not

 8     true.

 9        Q.   Could the attack have been launched from the Zeljo Stadium from

10     Grbavica II area from Strojorad?  Is that also Grbavica, and could an

11     attack have been launched from there?

12        A.   It could have been, but it wasn't.

13        Q.   Is all of this on the left bank of the Miljacka River, where the

14     Serb part of the town is?

15        A.   You mean the Strojorad area?

16        Q.   And the Zeljo Stadium?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this going to be tendered?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, apart from the ethnic composition of

20     those areas, are you or were you aware of the 1.000 Muslim paramilitary

21     forces attack against Vraca from the direction of Zlatiste and

22     Colina Kapa?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, like I'm saying, that is not

24     strictly the Grbavica area, but I'm not really -- I wasn't there.  I

25     cannot speak of things that I didn't see for myself.  There was combat in

Page 9219

 1     the Zlatiste area.  At the beginning of the war, Zlatiste was under the

 2     control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then after that Serbs

 3     took control of that area.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We don't see any basis to admit this document,

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             Can we now have 1D2806, please.  And we are going to see an

 8     intercept -- an intercepted telephone conversation between

 9     General Milutin Kukanjac and General Mandzic of the 21st of April.  At

10     the same time, this news agency speaks about the two JNA generals to

11     which the Serbs are objecting because they failed to protect them.  I

12     don't know if there's a translation.  We don't have a translation right

13     now, and I'm going to read slowly:

14             "Mandzic here."

15             And then he is connected to General Kukanjac.  And then in the

16     middle, it says:

17             "Let me tell you, I have been listening to these explosions from

18     this morning, and I can't ..."

19             And then there is a swear word, and then Kukanjac says:

20             "Everybody's firing."

21             Mandzic says:

22             "Another thing.  I have some retired people and some relatives in

23     that area, and according to what they say, these guys are attacking from

24     the left bank, Miljacka."

25             Kukanjac says:  "Yes."

Page 9220

 1             Mandzic:  "With the objective of capturing something over there.

 2     I think this is a forceful solution of the question of the division of

 3     Sarajevo."

 4             Can we look at the next page, please.

 5             And then they swear -- General Mandzic swears, and then he says:

 6             "What can be done to stop this?  My heart is heavy ..."

 7             And so on and so forth.  And then he says:

 8             "This is banditry, the worst kind of terrorism."

 9             And then Kukanjac says:

10             "I called both Koljevic and Karadzic and all of these Muslim

11     leaders.  Look, they're firing from Hum, these Muslims.  They're firing

12     from Crni Vrh, they're firing from Marin Dvor, they're firing from

13     Zlatiste, and these from Vraca have entered town.  This is awful."

14             And then a little bit later, it says:

15             "This Karic is lying over the radio, saying nonsense, that we

16     have tanks down there, this is nothing to do with the truth."

17             Karic is lying, Karic, not Karadzic:

18             "Karic was a 'Vehbija,' and he was recently under the command of

19     Kukanjac, and then he left the JNA.  And then Kukanjac says -- Mandzic is

20     asking him:

21             "This is clear to me.  Is it possible that there are these

22     Seselj's men there?"

23             And Kukanjac says:  "No."

24             Mandzic says:  "And ..."

25             Kukanjac says:

Page 9221

 1             "I don't think so.  You know them.  In order to justify things,

 2     it's easy for them to say Seselj's or Arkan's men.  There are none of

 3     those men in Sarajevo, no."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you understand now that these two generals confirm that there

 6     are explosions everywhere and that there was a heavy exchange of fire?

 7     Muslims are firing from Hum, from Marin Dvor, from Crni Vrh, above the

 8     military hospital and from Zlatiste, and the Serbs from Vraca?

 9        A.   No, I don't understand that, but that is not really correct at

10     all.  I lived in Grbavica, and there were no shells dropping around my

11     building, no snipers shooting either, or shells, nothing at that time.

12        Q.   All right.  But Vraca was not far away, and you can hear

13     explosions.  Did you hear explosions that day?

14        A.   You could hear explosions, but it's difficult, if you don't see

15     it with your own eyes, to assess whether these are just fired from there

16     or if it was fired from the other side and explodes in Vraca.  I did pass

17     through Vraca, and I wasn't really able to see the shells falling.  You

18     cannot hide that if you -- if shells drop, you cannot hide that.  I

19     didn't see any.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we look at the next

21     page, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I have to tell you that this is a good

23     example how you are wasting your time.  The witness already said he's not

24     aware of the situation in Vraca that took place at the time.  Reading out

25     these intercepts does not form any part of your evidence.  Let's move on,

Page 9222

 1     Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Just one more question

 3     to the witness.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   How far is Vraca from Grbavica?

 6        A.   From where I lived, it's approximately 6, 7 to 800 metres.

 7        Q.   Grbavica leads on to Vraca; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I'm not going to tender

10     this.  I'm going to tender it at some other time.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   All right.  These are two confirmations that on the 21st of

13     April, there was fierce fighting that you failed to notice.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 30714,

15     please.

16             We have a translation as well.

17             This is an intercept between me and the other Radovan,

18     Radovan Pejic, who is a prominent MUP official, and I'm asking him here:

19             "Is that Vraca?"

20             And they respond.  And Karadzic says:

21             "Good afternoon.  We are working here.  We are having

22     negotiations."

23             And he says:

24             "It's quiet at the moment."

25             And then he says:

Page 9223

 1             "Except for the fact that we are in the position because there

 2     are some indications that they keep getting organised down there in

 3     Grbavica, are getting organised."

 4             In the English, can we look at the next page, please:

 5             "They are getting organised in Grbavica."

 6             And then it says:

 7             "There was some attacks from that area last night, and so -- yes,

 8     we are just getting ready so that we can defend ourselves in case they

 9     start attacking us again."

10             And then I say:

11             "All right.  We should sign ... the cease-fire today, and

12     therefore we should not -- we must not initiate any attacks, and they

13     should not do so either."

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you see that on this page?  This is an intercept that was

16     recorded or picked up by the Muslim police.  Do you see that the police

17     knows that they are getting organised in Grbavica to attack Vraca?

18        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I lived in Grbavica, and I never saw a single

19     soldier in Grbavica either from the Green Berets, the Patriotic League,

20     or the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, never.  That is not true.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the next page,

22     please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Pejic says -- Karadzic is asking:

25             "Did you have any damage?"

Page 9224

 1             And then Pejic says:

 2             "Our premises were shelled yesterday and the day before

 3     yesterday, and the windows in the canteen are all cracked due to the

 4     detonations around the premises, so we're forced to be using the other

 5     entrance.  All of that was burning."

 6             Do you know where the school -- the police school is in Vraca?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you admit this intercept?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  On the basis of the witness's knowledge where the

10     school was?  We don't see any basis, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have 1D2805 now, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is a report from the MUP to the prime minister, dated the

15     30th of April.  Let's look at the bottom, the paragraph that begins with:

16     "Pripadnici."

17             "Members of the TO BiH from the region of the Grbavica Stadium,

18     where the bulk of these forces is concentrated, fired all night from

19     automatic weapons and snipers at buildings of the Serbian MUP."

20             Do you allow for the possibility that this was so?

21        A.   Since it is not stated here where the buildings of the Serbian

22     Ministry of the Interior are -- where is that located so that the Muslims

23     are firing on that?  Where exactly is that in Grbavica?

24        Q.   The school.

25        A.   In Vraca?

Page 9225

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   Which period is this that we're talking about, which date?

 3        Q.   The 30th of April, 1992.

 4        A.   I am not aware of that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And do you see at the bottom, where it says:

 6             "From the elementary school, Ivan Goran Kovacic, at the

 7     Pere Kosorica Square, fire was opened at facilities of the Serbian MUP

 8     and the Vraca Memorial Park from automatic weapons, Zoljas, Ocas [phoen]

 9     and snipers."

10             Do you know where this school, Ivan Goran Kovacic, is?

11        A.   Yes, I know where it is, and if you know where it is, then it

12     would be clear and logical to you that no weapons could be fired from

13     that school in the direction of Vraca.  If you're at the school or on top

14     of the school, you are facing the high-rise buildings on the Pere

15     Kosorica Square, so you could not be able to hit Vraca.  Also, a Zolja

16     does not have the range to strike at Vraca from Ivan Goran Kovacic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.  We are not

18     going to be tendering this.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   When did you receive -- when you received your combat disposition

21     or assignment, you said that it was difficult to pass between the

22     high-rise buildings.  At the time that you were in Grbavica, until

23   (redacted), were there any barriers, obstacles, reinforcements, containers,

24     and even curtains across the street from sheets and blankets in order to

25     shield ones from sniper fire?

Page 9226

 1        A.   Yes, there were.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the map.  It

 3     doesn't have to be in closed -- private session until we move to some

 4     more specific things.  Let's look at the map that shows New Sarajevo.

 5     I'm going to do this so that the parties and the Trial Chamber can

 6     clearly see what this municipality looks like.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you completely dispute the fact that at this time, there was

 9     fighting that these reports refer to?

10        A.   I am saying, again, I'm not disputing it.  It's just that I'm not

11     aware that there was anything.  I'm not aware.  I wasn't at Zlatiste, I

12     wasn't in this other location - I forget the name of it - above Grbavica.

13     I wasn't there.  But I did hear that there was fighting at Zlatiste.  I

14     could hear it, I could hear the fighting.  I didn't see it, though.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at P815.  The map was

16     admitted as P815.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can I ask you to take the pencil that the service will show you

19     and circle the New Sarajevo -- Novo Sarajevo municipality.  And then

20     later I'm going to ask you to mark the map some more.  It reaches all the

21     way to the top of Hum; is that correct?

22        A.   Well, I'm finding it difficult to find my way on this map.  Is it

23     possible to zoom in a little bit?

24        Q.   Well, maybe we can zoom in on the central part.  But do you see

25     it?  It says "Municipality Novo Sarajevo."  Do you see that?

Page 9227

 1        A.   Yes, I do.  That's what it says, yes.

 2        Q.   And do you see these boundaries?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Perhaps there's no need to mark the map.  Do you agree that at

 5     the top, on the north side of the map, going from the inhabited area,

 6     there is this inhabited area to the north, and then towards Hum, that is

 7     where the Serbian settlement of Pofalici lies, that is a 100 per cent

 8     Serb-inhabited settlement of Pofalici; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, that's the settlement of Pofalici.

10        Q.   Yes.  Could you mark that place with the letter P, "P" for

11     "Pofalici"?

12        A.   Yes, I agree that this part here is Pofalici [marks].

13        Q.   That is right, thank you.  Do you know that until the

14     15th of May, between 250 to 300 Serbs were killed, and almost all of

15     their houses were torched?

16        A.   I don't know how many Serbs were killed, and if they were killed,

17     whether houses were burned or not.  I wasn't there.

18        Q.   But this was in all of the media.  Did you hear from the media

19     that Serbs, all those who had stayed to live in that area, were killed

20     and routed out?

21        A.   I'm not aware of that.  It's possible that there were some

22     killings, but I'm not sure that it's possible that all of them were

23     killed in that way.

24        Q.   Do you know about any Serbs being killed in Pofalici?

25        A.   I don't know any specific examples.  I wasn't there, and I don't

Page 9228

 1     know of any acquaintances, friends, or any personalities living there.

 2     It's possible, but I simply didn't hear of it.  In my statement, I said

 3     that in the Grbavica part of town, there were no -- there was no fighting

 4     when the VRS entered Novo Sarajevo municipality and Grbavica, that there

 5     was no combat when the Serbian Army entered Grbavica.  And as for

 6     Pofalici, I only heard of it.  I'm simply not aware of it.  I didn't live

 7     there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  We can see Grbavica here.  We can see both

 9     front-lines.  We can see the hinterland behind Grbavica, and these are

10     mostly Serb villages in this area; right?

11        A.   Which area do you have in mind as being predominantly Serbian?

12     You mean the hinterland behind Grbavica?

13        Q.   Can you please put a letter G where Grbavica is and letter V

14     where Vraca is?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Thank you.  "G" stands for "Grbavica" and that entire flatland,

17     and then Vraca is up on the hill; am I right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me that here, further in, we can

20     see Lukavica and then that this other area around it is almost

21     100 per cent populated by Serbs?

22        A.   Predominantly Serb settlements; not 100 per cent, but

23     predominantly Serb.  There was some Croats and Muslims there as well.

24        Q.   But up there in the mountain area, if you remember Trivkovici,

25     Zivkovici, Biocici?

Page 9229

 1        A.   Pandurevici.

 2        Q.   Mostly Serb villages; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Could you please put an L where Lukavica is?

 5        A.   Is this Lukavica here [marks]?  Would you agree with me?

 6        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Now, could you please date this and sign with

 7     your initials so that this can be admitted into evidence and we can move

 8     to another map.  Just put a number.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Your initial being your witness number, which is

10     KDZ310, 310.

11             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   And the date.  You started writing "29th."

14        A.   [Marks]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D883, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Now, could we see another document from the month of June,

20     1D2792.  And then we will move into a closed session to see this map in

21     detail.  1D2792.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Witness, do you know that on the 8th of June, an all-out

24     offensive began, Muslim offensive, in the Sarajevo area, and in all parts

25     of the town, on all front-lines, there was fierce fighting going on?

Page 9230

 1        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 2        Q.   Would you please look at this news coming in from agencies, where

 3     it reads, according to the information coming in from the news agencies,

 4     the attack that started in the morning continued until the afternoon, and

 5     the last sentence says:

 6             "The same source states that in Grbavica II, infantry combat is

 7     in progress."

 8             Is Grbavica II that far away from you that you didn't know that

 9     there was any fighting going on there?

10        A.   There was no fighting going on there.  I know that.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Very well.  In that

12     case, we will not offer this into evidence.

13             Could we now move into closed session, because I'm about to ask

14     the witness to mark some locations on a more detailed map.

15             Could we see 09390C on the 65 ter list, and we need Map 11.

16             This is number 9.  We need number 11, please, sheet 11.

17             Are we in closed session?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Not yet.  Let's go into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9231











11  Pages 9231-9242 redacted. Private session.















Page 9243

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 9244

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we now have 65 ter 1081.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You described that chaotic situation very nicely.  From the

 5     beginning of April until mid-May, practically no one knew who was in

 6     power in Grbavica?

 7        A.   There were no troops in Grbavica, so I cannot say that it was

 8     under Serb control, or under Muslim control, or under the control of the

 9     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I mean.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that that is when criminals had their

11     chance, and that crime reigned in the area?

12        A.   I don't agree with that.

13        Q.   There were no criminals in Grbavica?

14        A.   There wasn't any looting at that time at all.  There was no

15     looting, there were no expulsions of people from their homes.  There was

16     no looting.  Cars were not being taken from people.  It's simply not

17     true.

18        Q.   We'll go back to that.  I'm just asking you in general, not only

19     until the 15th of May.  In that period, were there any criminals there?

20     Actually, do you remember that criminals had developed a new business, as

21     it were, secretly taking people from one side to the other?

22        A.   You mean the period before Grbavica was taken by the Army of

23     Republika Srpska?

24        Q.   Later on as well.  On the whole.

25        A.   Before the Serbs came to Grbavica, anybody could have crossed to

Page 9245

 1     the other side of the Miljacka River, so there could have been no

 2     business of transferring people from this side to that side.

 3        Q.   When you say "the Serbs came" --

 4        A.   I mean the army.

 5        Q.   Organised army.  Was the JNA there all the time at Lukavica, in

 6     Transit?

 7        A.   Before Grbavica was taken, you mean?

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   There were JNA units, to the best of my knowledge.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to draw your attention now to this

11     document.  This is a document which is a report for the commissioner of

12     the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, from the Crisis Staff.  He is

13     reporting to the president of the Presidency of the Serb Republic of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he says:

15             "Over the past two months in the territory of the Serbian

16     municipality of Novo Sarajevo, the following activities have been carried

17     out:

18             "A crisis staff has been set up ..."

19             And then he says which local communes were included, Grbavica,

20     Vraca, Hrasno, Brdo, Lukavica, Tilava, and so on.  And:

21             "This crisis staff is performing the function of the

22     Municipal Assembly in war conditions."

23             Now, 3(a), "Accommodation," do you see that paragraph?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   This has to do with putting up people who have no homes, and now

Page 9246

 1     B says:

 2             "Food supplies.

 3             "Local communes have made lists of civilians, including their

 4     first and last names, and food was provided to families of fighters and

 5     refugees from occupied territory."

 6             Can we move on to the next page, please.

 7             Do you see this, "Army Food Supplies," and then "Health Care and

 8     Medical Corps," an infirmary was turned into an emergency centre, the

 9     health centre has about 15 employees and so on?  Now look at this

10     sentence:

11             "In local communes, 19 vehicles (cadets and five-ton trucks) have

12     been assigned to the Medical Corps to be used as ordered by the head of

13     the Medical Corps."

14             At one point, you described that the soldiers asked someone for a

15     car; right?

16        A.   They did not ask for a car.  They asked for the keys to take the

17     car away.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that in wartime, a private vehicle can

19     also be requisitioned for army purposes?

20        A.   I'm aware of that, but not on ethnic grounds, not only to

21     requisition vehicles of Muslims and Croats.

22        Q.   Do you know exactly how many vehicles were taken, and do you know

23     what the ethnic structure was?

24        A.   I don't know exactly how many vehicles were taken, but vehicles

25     were being taken from the non-Serb population.

Page 9247

 1        Q.   Do you know of any Serb whose vehicle had been seized?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And you claim that no Serb's vehicle was seized?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of any.

 5        Q.   Please look at F.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9        A.   Well, they asked me --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, I see.  Please, can this

11     be deleted?  Sorry.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll do that.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Please, have a look at F.  The Executive Board restricted the

15     prices of food supplies.

16        A.   You said F?

17        Q.   F.  Do you see F, "Shops"?

18             "The Crisis Staff and the Executive Board have allowed the MIS

19     supermarket in Grbavica to sell goods, but at prices set by the

20     Executive Board."

21             So that is to say that they did not allow any wheeling and

22     dealing in that area?

23        A.   But this is not correct.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on to the next page.

25             The translation is incorrect here.  It's not treatment of Muslims

Page 9248

 1     and Croats, but relation or attitude towards Muslims and Croats.

 2     "Relation towards Muslims and Croats."

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And if you can look at this paragraph in the Serbian, and the

 5     rest in the English:

 6             "Citizens of all nationalities assemble frequently, especially in

 7     Grbavica, and our public attitude is very correct.  We appoint a head of

 8     every building, who is responsible for the situation in his building and

 9     for all the information about the occupants.  Secretly, the police apply

10     the usual procedure to people who are engaged in military activities

11     against us.

12             "We have informed the Muslims that they would be safe if they

13     were militarily neutral in relation to us, and so far the situation has

14     been good.

15             "We visited the nunnery in Gornji Kovacici and discussed

16     co-operation, loyalty and the nuns' safety with them."

17             Did you know that this nunnery remained in Grbavica throughout

18     the whole time tranquil and safe?

19        A.   No, I didn't know that.

20        Q.   But you allow for that possibility; is that correct ?

21        A.   It's not like that.  The nuns were actually expelled to the other

22     side, and it's not correct that the police had superintendents in each

23     building.  That is not correct.

24        Q.   How do you know that?

25        A.   I know because there were some people who had organised

Page 9249

 1     themselves at the special blocks and entrances to buildings, but when the

 2     police came, they explicitly banned that.

 3        Q.   All right.  We have evidence on that, and we will leave that for

 4     later.

 5             When did the nuns leave, and who expelled them?

 6        A.   The Serbian Army.

 7        Q.   If I were to tell you that this was not correct and that all of

 8     their treasures were safeguarded and handed them over at the end of the

 9     war, the whole library of the Theological Faculty and from that part as

10     well, what would you say?

11        A.   It's possible that the library and the things were safeguarded,

12     but the nuns were expelled.

13        Q.   When, what day?

14        A.   I don't know exactly, but they were expelled right at the

15     beginning of the war.

16        Q.   All right.  We'll deal with this easily.

17             Look at paragraph 7 here now.  Do you see it?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   "Robbery and theft."  This commissioner, this gentleman, is

20     reporting that:

21             "These have been rife, especially car thefts.  We are almost

22     powerless here, and there is not much we can do about this because this

23     is the responsibility of the military and civilian police ."

24             So he's reporting that crime was rife.  Do you agree with this

25     assessment of his?

Page 9250

 1        A.   What period is he talking about?

 2        Q.   He's reporting on the 5th of June for the two months that had

 3     just passed, April and May.

 4        A.   There was mass looting from the point in time when the Serbian

 5     Army entered Grbavica.

 6        Q.   And you ascribed that to the military?

 7        A.   To the military police, the army, and the civilian police.

 8        Q.   Witness, you were a part of that army.  Did you loot?

 9        A.   Not all Serbian soldiers looted.  In order to make a house, you

10     need a lot of people.  In order to knock it down, you only need one.

11        Q.   Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber which unit did the

12     looting?

13        A.   Soldiers and policemen from different units looted, those who

14     were at the lines, those from the intervention platoons, those who were

15     in the civilian police, those who were in the military police.

16        Q.   Since we dispute this and we know that this was not so, and we

17     will call those people to testify here - if you need to say this in

18     private session, we'll go into private session - can you please tell the

19     Trial Chamber the names of the persons who looted -- headed the people or

20     led the people who looted, or did not stop that, or issued such orders?

21        A.   There was no order to loot.  Everybody looted as they wished.

22     There were people who did the looting.  There were also honest soldiers

23     and people who did not do that -- that I know did not do that for sure.

24     I know soldiers from my unit who were honest, who did not steal.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time.  It's time to have a

Page 9251

 1     break.

 2             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 10 past 1.00,

 3     after which you will have about 50 minutes to conclude your

 4     cross-examination.

 5             Half an hour.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.39 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness, this is a person who at that point is exercising his

12     power, and he says that he's unable to put an end to the looting.  And we

13     will see when that happened.

14             Can you please look at item number 8 now, "Accommodation of

15     Fighters From Other Areas."

16             "For those fighters who have joined regular units, we provide

17     accommodation in empty and deserted Croatian and Muslim flats.  We give

18     them permission to use those flats temporarily, and they assume the

19     obligation to take care of the furniture."

20             Did you know about cases like that, where people were permitted

21     to temporarily use an apartment?

22        A.   The permission was given.  I'm not sure whether it was for

23     temporary use.  As for whether they looked after the furniture and what

24     was in the apartment, that is not true.

25        Q.   Can you please tell me of a single case where a person who was

Page 9252

 1     issued an apartment that had all its contents recorded, that he abused

 2     it?

 3        A.   What sort of a list of things that were there?  You mean he

 4     received an apartment with a list of all the things that were there?

 5     What do you want me to do, give you the name of such a person?

 6        Q.   I would like you to tell me of a case when a person to whom a

 7     commission had issued the permission to use an apartment destroyed the

 8     contents of that apartment.

 9        A.   Well, one of those people would be Zoran Colic.

10        Q.   Who was the apartment issued to?

11        A.   Zoran Colic.  He was issued an apartment, and he looted it.

12        Q.   He looted it?

13        A.   Yes, he did.

14        Q.   Okay.  We will call him to testify.

15        A.   Well, you cannot call him because --

16        Q.   Can you please look at the last paragraph, where this

17     gentleman --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Did you want to say something about Mr. Colic?

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say --

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  -- we perhaps have to go into private

22     session for these details.  I'm not really sure.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will go into private session, if you so

24     wish.  Yes, we'll go into private session briefly.

25                           [Private session]

Page 9253

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can I ask you to look at the last paragraph, where this

22     gentleman, who is a representative of the authorities, he says:

23             "We also request that this report be treated as official, and

24     that the entire government treat it as such, so as to prevent any

25     rumours, misinformation, and intentional or unintentional false reports.

Page 9254

 1     Any other individual oral reports and interpretations are merely the

 2     personal opinions of people and do not have the character of official

 3     assessments."

 4             And now, Witness, sir, this man who is exercising his authority

 5     there accepts the situation where there are some occurrences that he's

 6     not able to deal with, does not have the documents.

 7             On page 4 -- one, two, three, four -- page 4.  Can we go back to

 8     the previous 4, page 4, where he says that this cannot be -- this is

 9     paragraph 3 on page 4, where he says:

10             "We cannot objectively manage to do all the work there is because

11     virtually nothing can be done without a network of local communes."

12             So his assessment is similar to yours, that there are such

13     occurrences, and so on and so forth, but he, as a representative of the

14     authorities, says that he does not have the possibility of putting an end

15     to all of that.  Earlier, you said that there were no orders for looting,

16     that this was done by soldiers.  Was this looting done by an organised

17     unit, pursuant to instructions, or was this looting done by soldiers in

18     their free time?

19        A.   I had the sense that the expulsions were carried out pursuant to

20     orders.  As for the looting, directly, there was no command or an

21     instruction by some commander or something.  You know, things were

22     looted, money, gold, cars, and then it went from there.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we tender this document?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 9255

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No objection, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D885, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   When we're dealing with expulsions, let us clarify that matter.

 6     You say that until the 15th of May, more or less, you could freely cross

 7     over, before the lines were set up; is that correct?

 8        A.   Before the Serbian Army came to Grbavica.  Afterwards, you could

 9     also cross over, but it got more and more difficult, and in the end you

10     could not cross over anymore.

11        Q.   All right.  So when was the expulsion carried out, then?

12        A.   People were expelled from the time the Serbian Army came to

13     Grbavica and onwards.

14        Q.   Ah-ha.  And when I tell you that a bird could not pass -- first

15     of all, the journalists were running away, then there was the Muslim Army

16     that was firing when people were crossing over, so how can you explain a

17     mass expulsion after the lines were set up, when a bird was not -- unable

18     to cross the lines?

19        A.   Yes, it was possible to do that.  I watched, with my own eyes,

20     how they expelled people from the new buildings in Radnicka Street, when

21     they were telling these people on the Splitska and Belgrade streets, and

22     then in the direction of the Vrbanja Bridge, and then towards the

23     Energoinvest building, and there was firing.

24        Q.   Why was this not published in all the media, when this line was

25     under the control and the monitoring of the world media?

Page 9256

 1        A.   I don't know if it was published in the media or not, but I saw

 2     the expulsions with my very own eyes, people in columns with plastic bags

 3     and tote bags.  After that, their property was looted down to the last

 4     needle.

 5        Q.   Do you know that there were lists for exchanges of population and

 6     for the joining or uniting of families organised by international

 7     organisations?

 8        A.   This was called the Exchange Bureau.  It did exist.  It was

 9     headed by some Captain Bulatovic, I think.

10        Q.   Now, when we're talking about this column, I am stating here that

11     after the army came and the lines were set up, it was not possible to

12     cross over unless there was an agreement to do so and that nobody could

13     expel anyone.

14             And now I'm going to show a document.

15             Do you know that there was -- there were lists?  They come from

16     the other side -- people come from the other side, asking that their

17     families cross over to the Muslim side and the other way around; do you

18     know that?

19        A.   They did ask for each other through this Bureau for Exchange, and

20     people were crossed over here and there.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D2797, please.

22     1D2797.  This is all in June, the 25th of June.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Witness, I would like us to be specific.  If you did see a column

25     moving, how do you know that this was not something that was done

Page 9257

 1     according to an agreement, and how can you claim that it was a line of

 2     people who were expelled, because there were lines at the time that were

 3     established and it was not possible to cross over without this being

 4     previously agreed upon?

 5        A.   I could see from their expression that they were forcibly

 6     expelled.  They were not going of their own free will.  They were going

 7     by force.  If a woman is crying, then she's made to go.  She wouldn't be

 8     crying if she was going of her own free will and voluntarily.  She

 9     wouldn't be leaving her property behind to be looted.

10        Q.   So this was the criteria that you made this decision on?

11        A.   Amongst others.

12        Q.   What about other criteria?

13        A.   The second criteria was if somebody was kicking somebody in the

14     backside and hitting them with a rifle-butt, and cursing their Ustasha or

15     balija mother, then I could see that somebody was expelling somebody from

16     force.

17        Q.   Who was kicking whom?  Can you please tell us?  If we need a

18     closed session for that, can you please tell us, who kicked whom?

19        A.   The Serbian soldiers were kicking civilians of Croat and Muslim

20     ethnicities, civilian and military police and soldiers.

21        Q.   Witness, I don't accept that at all.  Can you look at this

22     document, please?  You can see here where it says that:

23             "The UNPROFOR forces were rather surprised today when they came

24     to the Serbian settlement of Grbavica in order to take several Muslim and

25     Croatian families to be exchanged.  These are families of Dervo Pusina,

Page 9258

 1     Izet Tanovic, Alija Talic, Drago Barbar, as well as family Hadzimesic

 2     signed the statement they didn't want to leave Grbavica because they had

 3     no reason for such action.  To the team of UNPROFOR, they confirmed that,

 4     'the Serbian authorities treated them correctly and that they enjoyed all

 5     the conditions for normal live, as well as the Serbian people in the

 6     settlement.'"

 7             They also asked how their names got on the exchange list in the

 8     first place.

 9             I am claiming now that after the lines were established, the only

10     way to cross the line was if this was organised by some humanitarian

11     organisation and what you saw was that.  Are you able to provide some

12     kind of convincing proof without reading the faces of people that you

13     saw?  Do you have proof that somebody was expelled, and can you explain

14     how was somebody able to cross the lines who was expelled?

15        A.   Simply, they were able to cross the lines.  They would tell the

16     people who were at the lines to let them pass on the other side, and they

17     were expelled, and that's that.  Through Belgrade Street, you would be

18     moving in the direction of Skenderija and Vrbanja, and that would be

19     that.  It was very simple, how this could be done.  It can be done very

20     easily if somebody wants to do that.

21        Q.   And you know about these lists?

22        A.   I don't know about the lists, but I know that through the

23     Exchange Bureau, in some cases such exchanges were carried out, because

24     prisoners were also exchanged through this bureau, and civilians were

25     crossing either side.  I know a Serb woman who crossed over to the

Page 9259

 1     Serbian side, she went to Belgrade, and then she asked to go back again,

 2     for example.  There are different cases.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  But you say that agreement could be agreed with the

 4     line to let them go, the Serbs could reach agreement with the Serb line.

 5     But what about the Muslim line?  Ten or fifteen metres away is the Muslim

 6     line.

 7        A.   Very simply, they see civilians moving there with bags in their

 8     hands, and they see that there are Muslims and Croats who were expelled.

 9        Q.   The entire world would have known that, Witness.  It would have

10     been on TV.  Such publicity would have been given that everyone in the

11     world would have known about it.  What do you know about that?

12        A.   It's not true.  It was on TV.  You could see the bridge near the

13     Bristol.  If you remember the well-known football player from

14     Zeljeznicar, Saracevic, how he was being expelled.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  The witness

16     knows that there was a commission for the exchange of the population.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think that's a proper basis for us to admit

18     this document.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             1D2798, please.  We have the translation as well.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is the 23rd of June.  The Sarajevo media said that a group

23     of Sarajevo Jews from Grbavica were taken prisoner and that they were in

24     the military barracks:

25             "Blanca Romano, the leader of this delegation that visited the

Page 9260

 1     barracks, stated that the Jewish residents of Grbavica feel completely

 2     safe, having so far no problems whatsoever with the members of the

 3     Serbian BH Republic Army and therefore do not want to move from this

 4     neighbourhood."

 5             Have you heard of this kind of misinformation from the Muslim

 6     media?

 7        A.   I did not see anything like that, but it is true that the

 8     Serb Army did not treat the Jews in a hostile way.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can this be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In a certain way, the witness has dealt with

13     that issue of the Jews.  Therefore, I think it can be admitted.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D886, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             P998, could we have that briefly.  It's already been admitted as

18     such.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, throughout the war there were three commanders of the

21     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  There was General Sipcic, and then

22     General Galic, and then General Milosevic.  I'm not going to refer to

23     every one of the periods involved, but you know that, don't you?

24        A.   I don't know.  I know that General Galic was there and

25     General Milosevic.  I hadn't heard of that Sipcic.

Page 9261

 1        Q.   All right.  He was there until the beginning of August 1992.

 2             So please have a look at this document, which has already been

 3     admitted.  We're not going to read all of it, but let us look at

 4     paragraph 4:

 5             "4.  Provide for the safety of aircraft providing supplies to the

 6     civilian population in the area around the airport."

 7        A.   Sorry, I can't see that under number 4.

 8        Q.   It's in the middle of the paragraph.

 9        A.   I see.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

11     And in English, it was on the other page to begin with.  So can we have

12     the last page, not to read all of it, because it has been admitted.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Paragraph 6, the last paragraph -- or, rather, the last sentence

15     in paragraph 6:

16             "Pay special attention to saving ammunition.  Prisoners should be

17     treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention ..."

18             And so on and so forth.  So it's the Sarajevo Brigade.  That is

19     in Novo Sarajevo; right?

20        A.   That is what is written there, but I have never seen this or felt

21     this in practice.  If that was the case, why didn't you say that on

22     television, for instance?

23        Q.   It says here:  "Strictly Confidential."

24        A.   "Strictly Confidential."

25        Q.   And all brigade commanders were issued this order.  We are now

Page 9262

 1     dealing with the order of the military command to the Sarajevo

 2     Romanija Corps.  It is strictly confidential.  They are not giving any

 3     publicity to this.  They are saying what they are supposed to abide by.

 4             Since this has been admitted, can we now move on to another

 5     document, P1000.

 6             You mentioned that the chain of command was operating.  Was that

 7     the case, in your view?

 8        A.   I think that from certain points of view, yes, and others, no.

 9     As far as combat operations were concerned, I think that the chain of

10     command did work.

11        Q.   And violations were committed on their own bat?

12        A.   They were not even held accountable for violations.

13        Q.   Let us look at this document, and let us move on to the last page

14     so that you can see what kind of orders are being issued by

15     General Sipcic.  He was a colonel at the time, actually.

16             The last page, number 9.

17             Number 9:

18             "Have an impeccable organisation of the firing system

19     co-ordinated with obstacles.  Fire should be opened at military targets."

20             Witness, you say that you did not see where shells were falling,

21     those that were fired from Transit towards the city?

22        A.   I could not see their points of impact, but obviously they were

23     falling on the other side.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says "should be opened," but it

25     should be "must be opened."  It should be in the imperative.  Could the

Page 9263

 1     translation be revised, or could the transcript at least note the

 2     difference?

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So, Witness, on Grbavica the Serb Army, or on the other side of

 5     the river, the Muslim Army, did they hold their mortars, guns, tanks on

 6     the front-line or somewhere in depth?

 7        A.   In depth.

 8        Q.   If somebody is firing in depth and you cannot see the place where

 9     the shells are falling, can you infer that it is non-discriminatory fire,

10     indiscriminate fire, or is it at a particular firing position?

11        A.   Our lines were so close that I can claim with a great deal of

12     certainty that they could not fire at the line, but behind the lines,

13     that is to say, where there was no military line.  Our mortars, when they

14     would shoot, often we received orders over the telephone that we should

15     be in the shelter because the lines were so close that some shells could

16     fall on us.

17        Q.   Or there could be retaliation by the other side returning fire?

18        A.   I don't think that our side could target the actual line with

19     mortars, but they couldn't either.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Since you said that there was firing in depth, since

21     mortars and guns and tanks are in depth on both sides, in order to

22     conclude that firing is indiscriminate, you would have to see the target?

23        A.   I could conclude, on the basis of where the barrel of the mortar

24     was, where the shells were falling.

25        Q.   Well, then there would be no firing tables if you could conclude

Page 9264

 1     it on that basis, Witness.

 2        A.   I could see where the tank was firing.  I could see that it

 3     wasn't the line that was targeted, but further in depth, where the

 4     civilian population was.

 5        Q.   Do you know that there was a Howitzer and a battery of mortars by

 6     Crni Vrh?

 7        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the number.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D576.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The second commander, General Galic, this is the kind of orders

14     that he is issuing to the 30th Division.  This is just before he took

15     over the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  Just have a look at this:

16             "Prevent looting, arson, private warfare in the area of

17     responsibility of the division at all costs.  Protect refugees and the

18     innocent population, and the enemy should be treated in accordance with

19     International Law on Prisoners of War.  Those who violate these orders

20     shall be subjected to the most strict legal and other measures, all the

21     way up to physical liquidation."

22             So these are explicit orders that are issued on the basis of

23     International Law.

24             Witness, the violations that you saw were not ordered from higher

25     up, or were they tolerated from higher levels?  Did you see looting

Page 9265

 1     carried out in an organised fashion anywhere?

 2        A.   All of these individuals belonged to certain units.  Why did

 3     Mr. Galic not check whether his order had been complied with, if he

 4     actually did order this, if this is correct?  Did he check whether his

 5     orders were carried out, since he was commander of the Sarajevo

 6     Romanija Corps?

 7        Q.   Thank you.  That is for the police to do.  The police files a

 8     report, and then the report goes to the Military Prosecutor's Office, and

 9     then proceedings are initiated?

10        A.   Proceedings were never initiated.  The looting went on.

11     Perpetrators of looting and other crimes were never held accountable,

12     they were never brought to court.

13        Q.   How do you know that?

14        A.   Because they were still there.  They were not in prison, they

15     were not anywhere else.

16        Q.   Did you report any of these perpetrators?

17        A.   I did not.  I tried once to protect a Muslim civilian, as I

18     mentioned in my statement.  I went to the military police.  I said what

19     had happened.  This military policeman just waved his hand.

20        Q.   In your statement, you mentioned shooting at the municipality.

21     Do you remember that in the municipality, Budo Obradovic, president of

22     the Executive Board, was killed, and by a Serb at that?

23        A.   I heard of the name, but I don't know who killed him or that he

24     was killed, in the first place.

25        Q.   Do you know that a court tried persons who killed others in 1992,

Page 9266

 1     for example, a Muslim and a Christian, because they were hiding in a

 2     cellar, and that the police reported that, and that the perpetrator was

 3     sentenced to 10 years in prison?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of that.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P1008, the first

 6     page.

 7             Here it is.  So it is sent to all the brigades, to all commands.

 8     There is probably a translation, too.  Yes.  So have a look.  The

 9     6th of October, 1992.

10             Can we have page 16 in Serbian and 11 in English, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   "Special attention should be paid to people.  Do not allow

13     unnecessary sacrifices as the result of bad command, lack of discipline,

14     sloppiness.  Use all available means to prevent and punish those

15     responsible for crime profiteering and indiscipline.  Burning, rape,

16     abuse, and inhumane treatment of the civilian population are strictly

17     forbidden because that is incompatible with the morals of Serbian

18     soldiers."

19             So you do not know that such orders were issued and that trials

20     took place, and that strict punishment was meted out?

21        A.   As for the mistreatment of the civilian population, I'm not aware

22     of anyone ever being prosecuted for that.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that people had to flee across the

24     lines secretly if they wanted to reach Grbavica, people of all ethnic

25     backgrounds, that they crossed over to our side?

Page 9267

 1        A.   I heard of that, that such things did happen, but not while I was

 2     there.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us have 1D2773.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you know that there was work obligation and that there was

 6     military obligation, so military-aged people were subjected to military

 7     obligations, and work obligation pertained to the civilian population?

 8        A.   Croats and Muslims, non-Serbs, had work obligation.  Very few

 9     Serbs did.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that Serbs were trying to find ways and

11     means of being transferred from military obligation to work obligation?

12        A.   I don't know about that.

13        Q.   I think that you said in your statement that Muslims and Croats

14     did not feel right because they had not been mobilised, whereas Serbs

15     believed that this was positive discrimination.  Do you think that

16     Muslims and Croats should have been mobilised forcibly or do you think it

17     was better the way the Serbs had decided originally, not to mobilise

18     Croats and Muslims, but to assign work obligation to them?

19        A.   At the time, people did not know what the nature of the

20     authorities would be, you see.  People didn't know what would happen,

21     because in the JNA we were used to having units formed in such a way so

22     that it would be people of various ethnic backgrounds there.  So the

23     question was:  What would happen?  Would it only be Serbs who would be

24     mobilised or did mobilisation only pertain to Croats, Muslims, or

25     whoever?  As soon as mobilisation was carried out on a mono-ethnic

Page 9268

 1     principle, it could be seen, what this was all about.  Right?

 2        Q.   Thank you.  But in this case, a Muslim and a Croat could fight,

 3     if they so wished.  There were entire units of Muslims who fought in

 4     Krajina, Posavina, et cetera.  However, in such densely populated urban

 5     areas, the Serb side had given up on the mobilisation of Muslims and

 6     Croats, and they left it to their own free will.  Would they be refused

 7     if they would report to a unit?

 8        A.   This was not a matter of their own free will, whether they would

 9     do so or not.

10        Q.   Do you know of a single Muslim or Croat who was refused if they

11     were to report to a Serb unit in the Serb Army?

12        A.   I don't know of any such situation.

13        Q.   Please cast a glance at this.  December 1993, and this is what it

14     says:

15             "Sixty-one members of a Croat brigade crossed over to the Serb

16     side.  The entire shift by the Electro-Technical School crossed to the

17     other side, and some went to join their families, and in this way went to

18     Grbavica."

19               Therefore, Captain Milicic, Djordje, informed that on this day

20     in December 1993, 61 members of the Croatian brigade who were deployed

21     across from Grbavica crossed over to the Serbian side.  And that is

22     something that you heard of as well; right?

23        A.   [No verbal response]

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9269

 1        Q.   You confirmed this, right, that this is something that you heard;

 2     right?

 3        A.   I wasn't in Grbavica at the time.  That was the time-frame when I

 4     wasn't present, but I did hear of it.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  There's no translation.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That should be marked for identification

 8     only at this point in time.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D887, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D2776.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In the first sentence, it says here:

14             "On the 19th of February, 1994, 14 people fled to Grbavica in the

15     Serbian territory from the Muslim part of Sarajevo.  They were

16     interviewed.  We have their statements, and we would like to report on

17     the activities of Muslims at this point in time."

18             Why don't you take a look at this document to see what went on on

19     the Muslim side.

20             And then in the footnote, it says:

21             "Of the aforementioned number, 10 men got out, including one

22     Croat, four women, and three married couples.  Twelve persons were

23     interviewed.  One couple did not appear in the premises of this organ

24     because Braco Lazarevic immediately took them away after they had crossed

25     over."

Page 9270

 1             Was this something you also heard of, that this is how people

 2     crossed over the lines?

 3        A.   I don't know.  As I have told you, I wasn't there during that

 4     period of time.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This entire document speaks about

 6     the disposition of tanks, mortars, and so on, but I'm not going to delve

 7     into this because you weren't there at the time.

 8             We're not going to adopt this, are we?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I see 65 ter 1031, and could

11     I be given a bit more time, please.  I'm not asking that we sit tomorrow,

12     but could we have a bit more time today?

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is not minded to give any extension,

14     given that you wasted time, but in particular, given that we have no

15     other witnesses, that may possible depending upon the time necessary for

16     the Prosecution for redirect.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, 15 minutes at most.

18             THE ACCUSED:  So I guess I got another 15.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You get 15 -- you conclude by quarter past 2.00.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Would you please look at this order dated 22nd of April.  There's

22     still no Serbian Army there, just members of the Territorial Defence and

23     authorities.  It's an order of the Crisis Staff, and it gives the basis

24     for the order and says:

25             "All men fit for military service aged between 18 and 60,

Page 9271

 1     residing in the area of Novo Sarajevo municipality, are duty bound to

 2     report within 24 hours to mobilisation call (Assembly Point

 3     Lukavica - Local Commune).

 4             "They should bring with them their military booklets, all

 5     materiel and technical equipment temporarily requisitioned for the needs

 6     of the Main Staff of the Serbian Territorial Defence."

 7             And:

 8             "Whoever fails to respond to the mobilisation call and violates

 9     this order shall be subject to the Law on Military Obligation."

10             And so on.

11             So you see what this order is about.  It's about mobilisation and

12     requisitioning of trucks and so on.

13        A.   I don't believe that this order was true, because there was

14     absolutely no need for any civilian trucks and vehicles to be

15     requisitioned because there was a sufficient number of the military ones.

16     So I don't believe that this order was true or that it was ever

17     implemented.

18        Q.   Witness, do you know and do you accept that the JNA remained in

19     Bosnia until the 20th of May and that this Territorial Defence could not

20     issue orders to the Yugoslav People's Army?

21        A.   I don't know about that.  I know that I saw military vehicles.  I

22     did not see civilian trucks being used.  I saw military vehicles bringing

23     in ammunition, food, and so on.  Those were military vehicles, not

24     civilian trucks, in the beginning.

25        Q.   I wish to ask you that.  Do you distinguish between

Page 9272

 1     Territorial Defence before the 20th of May, and that Territorial Defence

 2     had nothing to do with the JNA, it was not above the JNA or vice versa,

 3     it was subordinated to the JNA, and then the one later on?

 4        A.   I don't know to which extent the people from the

 5     Territorial Defence had influence over those in the JNA and vice versa.

 6        Q.   Does it say here only Serbs or all men fit for military service?

 7        A.   Do you know what?  The orders, themselves, were not badly

 8     formulated, but they were not implemented.  Nobody ever checked to see

 9     whether orders were implemented, and nobody was punished for not

10     implementing orders.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let us look at your case.  On the 24th, you were

12     supposed -- or, rather, on the 22nd, you were supposed to respond within

13     24 hours, that is to say, by the 23rd of April, and you did not respond,

14     and nobody saw you; right?

15        A.   No, that's not how it was.  This is the 22nd of April.  The Army

16     of Republika Srpska did not exist in Grbavica at that time.  Such orders

17     could not have been issued in Grbavica.  They could have been issued in

18     Lukavica, Vraca, and so on.

19        Q.   However, the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo included

20     Grbavica as dominantly populated by Serbs, and Budo Obradovic was killed

21     in Grbavica, at the headquarters of where he worked?

22        A.   Yes, but it was later on, in May and afterwards, and this

23     document refers to the 22nd of April.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Could this be adopted, please?

Page 9273

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, on this?

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I do not really see that the witness adopted

 3     the document or the information, but I would not object.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we may need it in order to understand the

 6     witness's answer, in terms of context.  It may be useful.  We'll admit

 7     this.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D888, Your Honours.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   You knew Simo Sipcic.  That's not the same person as

11     General Sipcic.  Another Sipcic; right?

12        A.   Yes, I saw him a couple of times.

13        Q.   You spoke in positive terms about him, saying that he prevented

14     some movement of civilians, that he sent them back home; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D2799, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

18        Q.   He was the head of military police in Novo Sarajevo municipality,

19     a Serbian municipality; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Here is the document.  I don't know if we have the translation.

22     Yes, it is there.

23             So the 22nd of July, municipality of Novo Sarajevo:

24             "In the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, the public law and order

25     is gradually being established.

Page 9274

 1             "According to the statement of Captain Simo Sipcic, who is the

 2     chief of military police of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo,

 3     the civilians are respecting both military and civil authorities.  All

 4     the difficulties that the citizens had are being effectively dealt with,

 5     regardless of their nationality.  The number of citizens returning the

 6     illegally obtained property to the authorities is higher and higher.

 7     Because of that, the state -- the rule of law and order is being

 8     gradually but definitely reintroduced."

 9             Isn't that showing that authorities, themselves, in late July

10     were not satisfied with the actual state of law and order and wanted the

11     rule of law to be reintroduced?

12        A.   What is said here is a notorious lie.

13        Q.   They're quoting the words of Captain Simo Sipcic here.  Are you

14     trying to say that he lied?

15        A.   Naturally.

16        Q.   And how do you know that?

17        A.   I know because the civilian population kept -- was constantly

18     mistreated and looted.

19        Q.   Well, give us an example.

20        A.   Well, I'll give you the example of the Balvanovic family residing

21     in Grbavica.  They were taken in the summer of 1992, taken away in

22     early-morning hours, two brothers, their wives, and their mother.  The

23     five of them were taken away.  The wives survived, and the three of them

24     were killed.

25        Q.   And who did that?

Page 9275

 1        A.   Veselin Blagojevic [as interpreted], nicknamed Batko.

 2        Q.   Who is about to be tried in Bosnia; right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   So what do authorities have to do with Veselin Vlahovic, Batko?

 5     We are here discussing the position taken by authorities.  There will

 6     always exist criminals, and what do authorities have to do with a man who

 7     was expelled and against whom serious measures were about to be taken

 8     when he fled?

 9        A.   Yes, they wanted to do it, but they never did it.

10        Q.   Well, did he just disappear from Grbavica?

11        A.   While I was still there, yes, he disappeared.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Could this be admitted, please?

14             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see a basis to admit this, Mr. Karadzic.

15             Although I allowed you a further 15 minutes, I would like you to

16     be focused.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Again, we see a

18     document on how everyday life was normalised in Sarajevo, but I don't

19     want to tender this so as not to waste time.

20             Please tell me, when it comes to issues of leave and so on, do we

21     need to be in private session?  When I get to that, I will announce it.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Tell me, please, you said at one point in time that nobody ever

24     told you what you needed to do once you were issued with weapons and

25     given information about where you need to report, which positions?

Page 9276

 1        A.   Well, no specific information was given, nothing overly specific.

 2     I was simply told that I should watch what's happening on the other side,

 3     that eventually somebody would appear, shoot, and so on.  But we did not

 4     receive any strict orders as to how we needed to conduct ourselves and so

 5     on.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned how somebody told you to shoot at

 7     everything that moved.  Was that some sort of permanent guard or what was

 8     it?

 9        A.   We had orders to shoot at everything that moved on the other

10     side.  You can call it whatever you want.  I'm not sure what the proper

11     term for that is.

12        Q.   Were you ever on the line when an attack was organised precisely

13     against the area where you were?

14        A.   The lines were never moved while I was there, and there was no

15     attack.

16        Q.   Ozrenska, Milinkladska Streets, the lines there went between

17     homes; right?

18        A.   Right.

19        Q.   You said that the soldiers, when not on the duty, slept in one of

20     those homes; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So, in a way, those homes served as temporary barracks; right?

23        A.   Yes, sort of, where soldiers stayed when they were not on the

24     positions and where they slept at night.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And this is how it was on the other side, across the

Page 9277

 1     lines; right?

 2        A.   Well, how would I know when I didn't see that?

 3        Q.   But the soldiers had to cook somewhere, had to eat somewhere,

 4     food was provided for them, and they could sleep somewhere when not on

 5     duty?

 6        A.   We received food.  We did not cook it ourselves.

 7        Q.   All right, thank you.  In your view, if a unit of 10 to

 8     20 soldiers sleeps in a house, would that make that house a legitimate

 9     target?

10        A.   I don't know.

11        Q.   Very well, I withdraw the question.  If you surrendered your

12     military booklet, was it entirely clear to those people there who -- that

13     they had in front of them a soldier who had gone through a military

14     training and who knew exactly what he could do and what not?

15        A.   No, it wasn't clear to them.

16        Q.   How do you know that?

17        A.   They weren't paying attention to that.  They simply gave us

18     rifles, and had they been interested in that, they could have verified

19     it.  They could have put just three or four questions to see whether

20     somebody was experienced or not, but they never did that.

21        Q.   How long did they keep your military booklet for?

22        A.   A couple of days.

23        Q.   And you think that the Military Intelligence Service never

24     conducted any checks to see about your background?

25        A.   I'm not aware of that.

Page 9278

 1        Q.   Did you shoot at everything that moved?

 2        A.   I never saw soldiers on the opposite side, nor a civilian.

 3        Q.   Just one more question, please.  You were on the ground floor,

 4     and occasional sniper shooters came to which floors?

 5        A.   The upper storeys of the building.  They had better visibility of

 6     the opposite side from there.  Now, which one, I'm not sure.  They stayed

 7     on several floors, and on some floors they created fake halls, so I'm not

 8     sure exactly from which floors they shot.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever see them kill somebody?

10        A.   No.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we move to private session now, please?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9279











11  Page 9279 redacted. Private session.















Page 9280

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we look at 1D1207, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree that the 1st Motorised Brigade was positioned

11     opposite from Grbavica and that the HVO was opposite Grbavica?

12        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

13        Q.   On the Muslim side, it was the area of responsibility of the

14     1st Muslim Motorised Brigade?

15        A.   I don't know that.

16        Q.   You were not aware of who was in front of you?

17        A.   As far as we were concerned, it was the Army of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, Muslims, however you want to call them, but I'm not -- I

19     didn't know the name of the unit.

20        Q.   Can we look at this document.  This is an executive order for

21     assault actions in the region of Grbavica, dated the 2nd of January,

22     1993, the second day of the new year; is that correct?

23        A.   What are you asking what is correct?

24        Q.   I'm asking you if you knew that an order was issued for an attack

25     on Grbavica then.

Page 9281

 1        A.   I don't know, Mr. Karadzic.  I was living in Grbavica, not in

 2     Marin Dvor.  I wasn't living with Zlatko Lagumdzija.  How can I know

 3     that?

 4        Q.   Very well.  But he's issuing an order for an attack to be carried

 5     out in the Grbavica sector.  Can we look at page 2 --

 6        A.   What do you mean, that when he issues an order he's going to

 7     inform me about it so that I would know?  How could I know that?

 8        Q.   Was there an attack on Grbavica?

 9        A.   I'm not aware of that, no.

10        Q.   Can you please look at the paragraph titled "Task."

11             "Occupy region to the right, Transit; to the left-most, by the

12     Elektroprivreda.  Attack to be executed through the direction of 11 Blue,

13     south side of the Grbavica Stadium, palm, shopping and Strojorad, four

14     big skyscrapers, with the goal to break the enemy on the given locations

15     and to occupy important buildings."

16        A.   The locations are familiar.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 4 now, please;

18     page 4.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can you look at the bottom:

21             "Since the capture of a fortified settlement like this, it's

22     impossible to do this without destruction and torching of buildings,

23     which are at the same time strong enforcements, destroy and torch

24     everything so that the operation could be carried out safely in order --

25     due to the familiar insolence, lack of principles, do not believe a

Page 9282

 1     single captured soldier, especially those who have any kind of weapons

 2     with them."

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat the last sentence of

 4     his question.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters didn't hear your last

 6     part of your question.  Could you repeat it?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the witness -- and

 8     then after that I'm going to ask for a minute in closed session.  I

 9     wanted to ask him this:

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you see what the intentions are of your enemies at the time;

12     to destroy and torch everything, to -- not to trust those captured,

13     especially if they had weapons, so meaning they could be captured without

14     weapons?  What do you understand this "do not trust anyone captured" to

15     mean?

16        A.   I don't know what they wanted to say with that.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we move into private session for a minute, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9283











11  Page 9283 redacted. Private session.















Page 9284

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

25             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 9285

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2                           Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 3        Q.   Witness, Mr. Karadzic spoke to you about the expulsion that you

 4     have testified about, and he basically put into doubt what you were

 5     telling, and also said that would that have happened, it would have been

 6     widely known and broadcast.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In this context, I would like to have

 8     Exhibit -- 65 ter 45135 be played.  And as it is being played, just to

 9     say what it is:  It is a report from TV Belgrade about a press conference

10     of UNPROFOR, deputy head of mission in Belgrade, and we will see.  I hope

11     it works.  We play just a very short sequence.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We would need the translation, the

14     interpretation.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that this is very, very

16     fast.  We would need a transcript.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We don't have a transcript, but it is only

18     about the first -- really, very first sentences that are spoken.  And if

19     we repeat it, it should actually be clear, what this is about.

20             Can we perhaps -- it's just a few seconds.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So can we hear it again or can we start from the

22     beginning again?

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may ask my learned friend,

25     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, to let us know the date of the event, the date of the

Page 9286

 1     press conference, because if somebody went under fire, as it says here,

 2     as the announcer says, then they were exposed to firing.  Then we have to

 3     see when the authority was set up or before that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Can you give us the date, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I cannot give you the exact

 6     date, but it is -- as it becomes clear from the narrative, that it is a

 7     complaint done by General Morillon, and it's -- and his time-period was

 8     September 1992 to July 1993.  I would not exactly know what he's talking

 9     about, but I was actually thinking that the witness can help us with

10     that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "There was ethnic cleansing in

14     Grbavica yesterday, when about 300 people were expelled to the

15     Hotel Bristol under fire, about which General Morillon protested to

16     Radovan Karadzic."

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That is -- that is sufficient.  Thank you

18     very much that you could do it.

19        Q.   Witness, do you know about this event, that 300 people were

20     expelled to Bristol -- Hotel Bristol?

21        A.   I know of it, yes.  I'm aware of it.  In the direction of the

22     Hotel Bristol, not at the Hotel Bristol, because that was on the firing

23     line.  People were expelled over the pedestrian bridge that was next to

24     the Hotel Bristol, so this was in the direction of that hotel.

25        Q.   And would you know what -- approximately when this happened?

Page 9287

 1        A.   This was in the summer of 1992.  I'm not sure, but I think that's

 2     when it was.

 3        Q.   And such reports, here it is the TV Belgrade.  Are you aware that

 4     such -- did you, yourself, see TV Belgrade, and would you see such

 5     reports?

 6        A.   We were able to watch television from Belgrade when we had

 7     electricity.  So this doesn't happen very often.  I really don't remember

 8     reports like this from Belgrade Television.  I cannot confirm them.  We

 9     were able to watch Belgrade Television when we had electricity.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to have this clip

11     admitted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  For the record, could you give us the 65 ter number

13     again?

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  45135.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1951, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's still necessary for us to be

18     informed about the time, the date.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We heard what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said, and --

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I also can say that I recall

21     that this was also discussed with -- I think with Witness Doyle or

22     Abdel-Razek.  I'm not sure about -- one of the two.  And there was

23     actually a protest done by UNPROFOR, and it is an exhibit in this case.

24     I can definitely look for this and provide the information later on, but

25     at the moment I just can't.

Page 9288

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And if time allows, can we also have another

 3     very short clip, and it is 65 ter 40171H, and it's just the minutes 31:12

 4     to 32.  And as it is being played:  It is TV Sarajevo this time, also

 5     referring to expulsion from Grbavica.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "The MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina

 8     issued an announcement stating that two groups of approximately

 9     500 citizens each crossed over into free territory from Grbavica I

10     and II.  According to this information, they were thrown out of their

11     apartments this morning without prior notice.  Their keys to their

12     apartments were confiscated, and they were told that they would get an

13     explanation when they crossed to the other side.  The MUP informs us that

14     an SDS meeting was held that morning where it was stated that it was --"

15             The interpreters note that this is really very, very fast.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you very much.  It's actually -- it's

17     sufficient what we've heard so far, and my question to the witness would

18     be:

19        Q.   Do you know about this expulsion?

20        A.   I don't know which time-period this covers.  I don't remember

21     exactly the date, the month, the year of each of the expulsions.  There

22     were several of them.  I'm not able to confirm for you when this one took

23     place.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, according to the information

25     that I got, it should have been the 30th of September, 1992.  That's what

Page 9289

 1     the programme refers to as --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Can you confirm that with the witness?  If it is the

 3     30th of September, 1992, do you have anything to say about that

 4     expulsion?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I do not know the date,

 6     so I cannot confirm that two groups of 500 citizens from Grbavica were

 7     expelled on what day.  I know that the expulsions did take place, that

 8     groups of citizens were expelled, but I don't remember the dates.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object.  This is

10     propaganda by the Muslim television, and at that time it was not possible

11     to carry out exchanges without the permission of these officers that were

12     dealing with population exchanges.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not an exchange of

14     population.  These were expulsions.  When there were expulsions from the

15     other side, there were no Serbs coming.

16             JUDGE KWON:  It's not helpful.  It is not for you, Mr. Karadzic,

17     to intervene at this moment.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, and if I understand the

19     information correctly, the date is actually mentioned in the news.  This

20     is what I think, but I didn't hear it now.

21             JUDGE KWON:  But the witness said he cannot confirm about that.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23        Q.   Then let me ask you this:  What you saw mentioned here, is that

24     what you, yourself, saw reflected on the ground?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9290

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would ask permission --

 2     admission of this document as well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Could we confirm with the interpreters whether the

 4     date was mentioned?  Could we hear it again?

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "We received an announcement from

 7     the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina that today, two groups of 500 citizens

 8     each crossed into free territory.  They were expelled from their

 9     apartments without prior notice.  There were -- keys and other property

10     were confiscated from them, and they were told that they would be given

11     information when they cross over.  There was also information that the

12     SDS held a meeting, stating that all Croats and Muslims would need to be

13     expelled from that area."

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it's -- I can't clarify the

15     date right now.  Perhaps it's possible to clarify that later.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that the only reference

17     to the date was the word "danas," "today."  There was no date.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Allow me to say that this policeman

19     should be called to testify so that he can say that some Seselj or

20     Arkan's men were in Grbavica.  There were no such people at Grbavica.

21     This was something that could not have been done without the commissions.

22     Perhaps this document can be admitted once we have the testimony of the

23     policeman who mentioned that there were Seselj's and Arkan's men in

24     Grbavica.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So you will consider that option,

Page 9291

 1     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, tendering this document later on?

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would actually suggest that

 3     we mark this for identification, and I will provide the additional

 4     information about when this TV programme was broadcast during the next

 5     sessions.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Albeit in response to a leading question, the

 9     witness confirmed that what he saw is reflected in this video.  On that

10     basis, we'll mark this for identification, pending the clarification from

11     the OTP as to its date.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             And no more questions.  I'm finished.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be MFI P1952.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, that concludes your evidence.  Thank

16     you for your coming to the Tribunal to give it.  You are now free to go.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait a minute so that you can go.

19             I take it the next hearing date will be 7th of December.  We'll

20     resume with Mr. Konings' evidence?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.32 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 7th day of

Page 9292

 1                           December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.