Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9450

 1                           Thursday, 9 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Besic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

10     cross-examination.

11                           WITNESS:  SEAD BESIC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             MR. Karadzic: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

14             Good morning to everyone.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Besic.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   Yesterday, we announced that we would be hearing a viewer calling

20     in live to Radio Hayat, so I would like you to carefully listen.  I

21     believe that we don't have a transcript, but -- actually, we did make a

22     transcript, we will have a transcript, so I'm asking you, for us to

23     carefully listen to this viewer.

24             Can we play this 1D1031 from 47 minutes 10 to 47:54.  It's some

25     40 seconds or so.

Page 9451

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Go ahead.  Salaam alaikum, alaikum

 3     salaam.  Aganovic on the radio."

 4             Interpreter's note, it's very silent, we're not able to hear.

 5             "I saw 25 dead, and you know how many people were injured.  There

 6     is a TV recording of me carrying people.  The B and H has already

 7     broadcast it.  I am speaking the truth.  My advice is to organise an

 8     extreme party of ours that would kill three Serbs for each one of ours,

 9     regardless of whether they're guilty or innocent; guilty for the guilty,

10     innocent for the innocent, because our people are not [as interpreted]

11     innocent."

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Were you able to hear, Mr. Besic?

14        A.   Yes, I was able to hear the words of this man.  These are the

15     words of one individual who is bitter.

16        Q.   Well, let's leave aside this recommendation of his to kill three

17     for one, and let us focus on what he says; that he was an eye-witness,

18     that he helped in the evacuation, and that he saw 25 bodies.

19             Now I would like to ask you, Mr. Besic, whether you believed,

20     without doubt, your associates or people who spent an hour there, without

21     notifying the police, and did you believe everything that they said?

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection, Mr. President.

23             I think the question assumes matters which are not yet in

24     evidence.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  "Because our people

Page 9452

 1     are innocent."

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to see --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What is your objection again, Mr. Gaynor?

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  In the question, he states that.

 5             "... your associates or people who spent an hour there, without

 6     notifying the police ..."

 7             I don't believe that there is evidence on the record to that

 8     effect.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That part, yes.  Could you reformulate your

10     question, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that the document that we

12     saw yesterday has already been admitted.  I would like to tender it now,

13     the document, in which it says that the explosion occurred at 1220 hours

14     and that the notification arrived at 1320.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Without making a submission, I told you to

16     reformulate your question to the witness this time, based upon this radio

17     broadcast.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Besic, this eye-witness who helped in the evacuation of those

20     who were killed, and who says that he can be seen on the footage of TV

21     Sarajevo that broadcast this, he said that he saw 25 bodies.  They told

22     you, after you arrived -- without you having seen a single body, they

23     told you that there was 68 bodies.  My question refers to the following.

24     I'm not going to imply that you participated in that, but you were told,

25     so my question is:  Did you believe what you were told or do you have any

Page 9453

 1     basis for any doubt when you compare these two pieces of data?

 2        A.   Incoming information came from several sources.  It was not our

 3     job to count and to take this information for what it was worth.  We came

 4     to process the cream of the sign [as interpreted].  The number of dead

 5     was registered in the Kosevo morgue.  That number is 68 bodies.  And then

 6     later, some other people died.  They succumbed to their injuries.

 7     According to this person -- this was a person who was not able to speak

 8     directly to the police.  This is something that he stated for Hayat

 9     Radio, so we should not really take into account his figure of 25 bodies.

10        Q.   All right.  But my question will also refer to the following.

11     Did you also believe them, as far as the scene of the crime was, in other

12     aspect as well?  But we will come to that.

13             My question -- actually, my position is that they were hiding

14     something from you and that you did not get complete information.  This

15     is one of the elements, and soon we will see other elements.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Excuse me, Mr. Karadzic.

17             Who are you referring to by "they"?  I have difficulty following

18     your line of questions, but you said that the gentleman in the broadcast

19     said he saw 25 bodies, and then they told the witness there were 68

20     bodies.  Do you mean that he hid something or he counted all the bodies

21     and he came to the number of 25?  I don't follow your lines of questions.

22     Could you clarify?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  Since the witness and I

24     are from the same area, certain things are implied between us.  This is

25     what I want to clarify:  There is an hour from the explosion to the time

Page 9454

 1     that the police were notified.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So that's the subject of your further submission,

 3     but put your question, if necessary, to the witness.  Or, if necessary, I

 4     will ask the witness to be withdrawn from the courtroom and I'll give you

 5     an opportunity to address the Chamber as to your defence.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps after the break.

 7             Can we now have -- can we now have 65 ter 09620.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to tender that broadcast?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The two documents that we saw

10     yesterday, I would like to tender those, and this recording that we heard

11     a little bit earlier.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to object to the admission of the

14     recording.

15             First of all, there's nothing in the audio section that we heard

16     which suggests that this was actually a broadcast from Radio Hayat.  What

17     we do have is an audio-recording accompanied by a screen shot, and

18     there's -- it's something of a mystery to us why the audio-recording from

19     a radio broadcast is accompanied by a screen shot purporting to show a

20     Radio Hayat.  There's been no evidence led that this is a genuine

21     broadcast of Radio Hayat.  We dispute the authenticity of this recording.

22             JUDGE KWON:  And the witness was not able to confirm whether or

23     not it was a Radio Hayat broadcast.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think all the documents dealt with yesterday were

Page 9455

 1     admitted at the time.  What documents do you refer to?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 09634 and 09622.  I thought

 3     that they were tendered, but I misunderstood the intervention by

 4     Mr. Gaynor, that I was asking something that has not been admitted into

 5     evidence yet.  So these are the two reports and the -- actually, a report

 6     and the record which we --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Did we see 9622 yesterday?

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any observation, Mr. Gaynor?  9634 and

10     9622.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I have no observations regarding those two.  My

12     objection is limited to the broadcast.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  They will be admitted and will be given a

14     number.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.

16             65 ter 9634 will be Exhibit D892, and 65 ter 9622 will be

17     Exhibit D893.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  Let me just say this

20     much:  We submitted a very long recording, but we cannot play the whole

21     thing.  This is a call-in show with callers telephoning in.  We have

22     that.  This is something that can be checked.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark this recording for identification, until

25     the time when we'll be satisfied as to its authenticity and foundation.

Page 9456

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D894, marked for

 2     identification, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 09620,

 4     please.  This is photographic evidence.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you recognise this first page?

 7        A.   Yes, of course.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Well, your signature is at the bottom; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 6, please.

11     Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Since we're not quite sure where this arrow is, would you be able

14     to mark on this photograph the place of the explosion?  The text speaks

15     of an arrow here, but we are not able to see it.

16        A.   Actually, because this documentation was compiled very quickly,

17     we actually did not put the arrow in.  It should be here [marks].

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please date and initial this photograph?

19        A.   [Marks]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we tender this photograph, please?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D895, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   You stated that you saw the fins and that you did not touch

Page 9457

 1     anything until the UNPROFOR arrived.  Would you like me to call up that

 2     part of your statement?

 3        A.   No.  That is correct, I looked at the scene of the crime, the

 4     inner and the broader area.  I did see the stabiliser.  I looked in the

 5     centre and I found the stabiliser embedded below the surface.  And taught

 6     from my experience the day before, when I was working at Dobrinja, when

 7     seven people were killed, when the stabiliser also embedded itself into

 8     the surface, so taught by experience, when I didn't find a stabiliser

 9     aboveground, I found it embedded deep in the ground.  Since there were

10     rumours about sabotage and so on, I thought it better that the UNPROFOR

11     should carry out this investigation because they were more likely to be

12     believed.

13        Q.   All right.  So you looked around and you didn't see the fins

14     outside, you saw them inside, and you waited for some 10 or 15 minutes

15     for the UNPROFOR to arrive, and then they arrived and that was that?

16        A.   Yes, we waited for some 10 or 15 minutes, they arrived pretty

17     quickly, and then we began.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at P17013 -- actually

19     09, page 13.  P1709, that is a Prosecution exhibit.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   While we're waiting, Mr. Besic, my question is:  Did you believe

22     that during that hour, nobody touched that point of impact?

23        A.   Well, we are having some problems here because of this time.  The

24     explosion, itself, and the fatalities occurred at 12.20.  We received the

25     information in some 10 to 15 minutes, and the investigation began at

Page 9458

 1     1320.  We took about 40 minutes to get there, and that's when the

 2     investigation began.  However, the person who conducted the investigation

 3     report, it wasn't myself, it was someone else.  It's up to me to process

 4     the scene of the crime, while the operatives would compile all the data,

 5     all the information about the investigation, and then we have some.  But

 6     if you think that you can do something in 40 minutes, that you can stage

 7     something, how much time do people need throw the corpses around?  You

 8     cannot do that in 20, 30, 40 minutes.  Some time is required for that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The document from yesterday indicates that there was

10     an hour between the explosion and the notification of your service.  On

11     the other hand, do you agree that those who were loading the corpses did

12     not have to do anything at the point of impact?  After that, some other

13     team could have been working simultaneously at that?

14        A.   No, I wouldn't agree with that.  When the explosion occurred,

15     when the people were wounded and taken away, the police from Stari Grad

16     were automatically engaged to secure the scene of the crime.  No one

17     could enter the scene until the investigation team arrived.  I am sure of

18     that.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, we will see.

20             Can we have page 13 of this document now.  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you please tell us what this scale at the side stands for?

23        A.   We use this scale to determine the size, the length of the

24     object.  Specifically, in this case, this is a mortar shell -- a

25     stabiliser from a mortar shell.  The fields are divided here,

Page 9459

 1     black-and-white fields, and they are of 1-centimetre size.  So then we

 2     have an overview of the size of the object.  When you count the fields,

 3     then you could conclude that this stabiliser is 20 centimetres' long.

 4        Q.   So each of the fields, the black and the white fields, are 1

 5     centimetre in size; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we now look at P1967.  This is the stabiliser that we have

 9     here in the courtroom.

10             Can we have the previous exhibit back, please, the previous

11     photograph.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can I ask you, Mr. Besic, to measure?  We have a ruler here.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let us up-load the previous exhibit,

15     Exhibit P1709, in the meantime.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   How long is the stabiliser, Mr. Besic?

18        A.   16 and a half or 17 centimetres.  There is a difference of 3

19     centimetres.

20        Q.   Well, you did not measure from 0.  I think the difference is

21     more.  But 3 centimetres is a significant difference, isn't it?

22        A.   I think that in this case -- no, I don't see any reason --

23     whether it's 20 or 19, the stabiliser is damaged.  When you compare the

24     photographs with this, I think it's identical, regardless of the 3

25     centimetres' difference, 4, 5.

Page 9460

 1        Q.   Can you look at this groove on the left surface of the

 2     stabiliser.  Can you find that groove that goes through these three

 3     holes?  Can you find that on that stabiliser?  On the left, you see the

 4     groove, a rip?

 5        A.   Yes, it's here [indicates].  If you look at these three here and

 6     you see those three there, here it is, it's here [indicates].  You would

 7     have to look at it under a light at an angle.  The blitz was actually

 8     used -- the flash was used in this direction, so this is how it is.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are kindly asked not to overlap.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you compare these three holes,

11     one, two, three, and if you compare these three with the photographs, you

12     will see the three grooves which are photographed under the flash.  And

13     if you look at that under an oblique light, you will be able to see that.

14             JUDGE KWON:  If that's an important part, we have difficulty

15     following these lines of questions without having the possibility to

16     really look at what part -- to which part the witness is indicating.  If

17     necessary, I'm wondering whether we can put it on the ELMO and we can

18     follow which part is indicated.  Put a paper on the ELMO to protect the

19     screen.

20             So could you measure it again?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please, Mr. Besic, bear in mind it doesn't start from the

23     beginning.  There is a certain numbering.

24        A.   The length is 17 centimetres.

25        Q.   We'll have to measure it for ourselves.  I think it's

Page 9461

 1     considerably less.  But even that is less than what is shown on the

 2     picture, isn't it?

 3        A.   There's a problem with this photograph.  The problem is this:  If

 4     you look at the ends here, if you look at the ends -- the edges here on

 5     the photo, you will see that the object was laid down like

 6     this [indicates] to be photographed.  To straighten it, you have it

 7     straightened up like this [indicates], and the length appears longer.

 8     It's no longer 17, but it's 22.  This is the position as it was

 9     photographed [indicates].  Do we see this clearly?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Could Mr. Besic push his hand a little further up

12     the screen?  It's not visible on the television.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This image is what we see in the picture.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If somebody could give me a pen or

15     a pencil.

16             Do we agree that these three openings are seen on the photograph

17     here on the right?  Do we agree about that, these three holes?  And when

18     you compare this semicircle here [indicates] -- can you see it?  There it

19     is on the photo.  Below it, there are three openings, three holes, one,

20     two, three.  If you twist it just a little bit, you get these

21     openings [indicates].  It's a bit hard to explain this way.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm telling to the Audio-Video, is it not possible

23     to show what is seen on the ELMO for the purpose of the record?

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Can we go into private session briefly.

Page 9462

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             Could you explain again, if you could, in a nutshell?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a bit of a problem, but I'll

15     try.

16             If we look at the photograph on the screen, on the right we see

17     damage to this part here [indicates].  Right?  Do you agree?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just go on.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We see this damage here.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just go on.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above this damage, you see three

22     holes, and you can see them on the photo, on the right, also.  I would

23     prefer it if you could see it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I am switching between two

25     screens and I can see clearly what you're saying.

Page 9463

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see it clearly, those three

 2     holes, but on the ELMO it's difficult to see.  We have to keep turning

 3     the object around, and that's why it's a bit uncomfortable, it's a bit

 4     awkward.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Could I ask you to measure from the bottom to the edge?  There's

 7     a ruler there.  It shows the entire length.  It's 22 and a half

 8     centimetres; right?

 9        A.   Yes, but I've just explained, to be photographed, this object was

10     not straight up at a 90-degree angle, because it drops, and that's why we

11     got this other length.  Look at the difference.  It's certainly a

12     3-centimetre difference.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could you move your hand a bit further up?  To the

14     opposite direction; yes.  Yes, thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, it's not able to stand up

16     on its own, so our colleague who did this, Suad Dzumisic, had to

17     photograph it in this position [indicates], and this is how, what the

18     photograph shows.  This is the position you see on the photograph, and in

19     this position it has that length.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the proper

22     position [indicates], and look that this is not vertical, it's not at a

23     90-degree angle.  This is what we call a macro-photograph.  It should

24     have been photographed this way [indicates].  However, it was

25     photographed like this [indicates], if not even further up.  Right, this

Page 9464

 1     is how the photo was taken.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So it was not really done properly, was it?

 4        A.   Well, under the circumstances in which we worked, I think the

 5     work was done great, it was fabulous.  With those shortages of proper

 6     conditions and material, the work was great.

 7        Q.   If we look from this perspective, if we raise the object, it

 8     becomes longer, not shorter; right?  Try to raise it.  Do you see that it

 9     becomes shorter?  Visually, it looks shorter if you raise it, if you prop

10     it up.  If you drop it, it will be longer.  You'll see.

11        A.   It can't be longer.  Anyway, the difference is 2, 3 centimetres,

12     not more, if that makes a whole bit of difference.

13        Q.   We have lined paper, if you want to take it.  It shows exactly

14     how much you lose in length if you prop it up.

15        A.   I don't know if these lines are with an interval of 1 centimetre.

16        Q.   They're not, but it doesn't matter.  Just drop it.  It's shorter,

17     you see.  Now raise it.  You'll see that it gains in length, at least

18     visually.

19        A.   But you have to look at the edge.  The edge begins

20     here [indicates], not there [indicates].  I know you'd like it to start

21     from there, but it starts, actually, from the bottom edge.  That's where

22     we gain in length, those 2, 3 centimetres.  That's how you measure it,

23     from the bottom edge.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up another

25     photograph, the photograph of the scene.  No, first we'll watch a video,

Page 9465

 1     40125, starting with H-43 to H-47.  It's been admitted.  Let's just view

 2     it.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is it the way it appeared the first glance you got?

 5        A.   No, this was set up after the scene was cleared.  It was set up

 6     by Mirza Sabljica and the other man.  I can't recall his name, the one

 7     who died.

 8        Q.   I hope it's not Mirza Sabljica who died.

 9        A.   No, no, no.

10        Q.   Zlatko Medjedovic, you mean?

11        A.   That's right.

12        Q.   You say something was cleared here?

13        A.   No, I cleared this area here, I personally cleared it.  And after

14     I removed blood and tissue and all sorts of objects, Mirza Sabljica and

15     his colleague came, set this -- laid these staffs to try to determine the

16     direction.  So it's not I who laid these sticks.  That's not the first

17     photograph.  The first photograph showed the scene before clearing.  You

18     can see the debris, the blood, the body parts, everything.

19        Q.   On this photo, you can't see the fins.  The fins are 7 to 9

20     centimetres below ground?

21        A.   Correct.  I've already -- I had already told my colleagues that

22     the stabiliser is inside, but nobody wanted to touch it.  We were waiting

23     for UN members to arrive.  We wanted to avoid any possibility of further

24     manipulation or speculation.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All this has been admitted, so let

Page 9466

 1     me play it again.  We don't have to worry about minutes.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is this the scene as you found it?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  You see for yourself.  The picture speaks for itself.

 6     You see that nothing has been cleared.

 7        Q.   In your practice, did you encounter cases where the stabiliser

 8     was embedded so deep into the tarmac that it was 7 to 9 centimetres below

 9     ground?

10        A.   Of course.  It happened just the day before this in Dobrinja.

11     It's in the documentation.  The stabiliser was stuck into the ground 3 to

12     4 centimetres' deep.

13        Q.   This one is not even visible.  To reach it, you have to dig 7 to

14     9 centimetres?

15        A.   You don't need to dig.  If you take the surface of the asphalt

16     and the material thrown on top, it's just a few centimetres.  It's

17     visible above the asphalt.

18        Q.   So the one in Dobrinja was visible?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And it protruded from the ground?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you encounter any cases where the whole stabiliser went deep

23     into the ground?

24        A.   Of course, the colleagues I worked with and I encountered such

25     cases.  Sometimes it fell so deep inside, we were not able to find it at

Page 9467

 1     all.

 2        Q.   Into the tarmac?

 3        A.   Yes, sometimes they would be stuck into the asphalt.

 4        Q.   Can you explain to all of us, this is an explosion, not an

 5     implosion?

 6        A.   Yes, of course.  I'm not a ballistics expert, but as a layman, I

 7     don't see the difficulty.  A mortar shell travels at an angle and falls

 8     at an angle.  The fuse does its job, the body explodes, and the

 9     stabiliser continues on the trajectory and embeds itself into the ground,

10     which is already softened by the explosion.  The hard obstacle is already

11     removed, so the stabiliser gets stuck into the surface.

12        Q.   Since it's not an implosion, but an explosion, how come that so

13     much fine debris found its way into the hole?

14        A.   I can't tell you that.  Probably due to the detonation.  As the

15     explosion occurred and the stabiliser got stuck into the ground, the fine

16     debris covered this hole again.  I don't believe, honestly, that somebody

17     took a handful of earth and threw it inside.

18        Q.   Can you take a look at the screen and tell us whether this is the

19     stabiliser of the shell in Dobrinja which landed in soft soil?

20        A.   Yes, it is.  It's not soft soil, actually.  It's tarmac.  You can

21     see it clearly.

22        Q.   But there is no debris that covered the hole again?

23        A.   That's correct.  It all depends on the angle of descent.  I

24     really can't comment on this in any expert way.  I'm not a ballistics

25     man, but I can see things as a layman.  It's quite obvious, in three or

Page 9468

 1     four examples, including Markale I and Markale II, that the stabiliser

 2     got stuck into the tarmac, and it's possible that it stuck 7 or 8 or 5

 3     centimetres' deep.

 4        Q.   Here is my theory, Witness --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  For the record, what is the exhibit number for this?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's 1D2867.  Time, 7.49 to 8.01.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Which hasn't yet been admitted, Mr. Gaynor?

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  No, this video has not been admitted.  There's no

 9     objection to the admission of it.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to tender that part?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, this part of the film.

12             JUDGE KWON:  This part will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D896, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But I would like to remind you of your

15     responsibility to up-load this part.

16             Yes, let's carry on.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   It's the Defence case, Mr. Besic, that the debris on the scene of

19     Markale I was brought in artificially and used to artificially cover this

20     scene after the impact, and that's what took one hour before your

21     arrival.

22        A.   I cannot comment on that.  I know that these are the facts, both

23     with regard to the crime scene investigation in Dobrinja and in

24     Markale I, and I stand by that.

25        Q.   Then we have to lead evidence.

Page 9469

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up in e-court 65 ter

 2     40125.  It's a video and a still from that video.  It would be from 7:11

 3     to 7:15.  1D851 is the still from that video -- D2851.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  1D2851.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On this photograph, would you please circle the point of impact,

 7     if you can?  Is this the point of impact?

 8        A.   [Marks].  Yes, this is the place of impact.  You see damage on

 9     the tarmac.  This is the center.  All this is damage [marks], and further

10     afield.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, use the red pen to mark this little plate in the

12     left bottom corner with the hole in it, a platelet.

13        A.   You mean where the date is [marks]?

14        Q.   That's the date, but the platelet is in the corner.

15        A.   Here in the corner [marks].

16        Q.   Can you mark it with "1"?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   This is taken before you did anything?

19        A.   This is the situation as we found it.  Our work is to record the

20     situation as found, and then to clear, and then to collect evidence and

21     document it.

22        Q.   Can you initial and put a date?

23        A.   [Marks]

24             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D897, Your Honours.

Page 9470

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we now see 65 ter 40125 from 6:46 to 7:12.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this the area around the point of impact that has been

 6     cleared?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we now get the still, 1D02853.  It's a still from this video.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   This is the place before clearing -- sorry, after clearing, but

12     before digging out the tail-fin?

13        A.   Right.

14        Q.   Where is that platelet from the previous picture?

15        A.   I really have no idea.  I can't see it.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we tender this part of the film

17     and this still -- or, rather, just the still?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D898, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we again see that same footage

21     from 9:15 to 9:18.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we now get a still, 1D2855.  1D2855.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9471

 1        Q.   On this picture, can you see that platelet?

 2        A.   Yes, I can see it.  It's from the door lock.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put a circle and number 1 around it?  The

 4     tail-fin has been dug out and we can see the fins.  It's a still from the

 5     video we've just seen.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  [Marks].  Which number?

 7        Q.   Number 1, your signature and date.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Is it clear to you now that this platelet is glaring proof that

10     this scene has been tampered with?  First, the place was cleared, then it

11     was gone, and then after the tail-fin was dug out, it appeared again.

12        A.   No, I don't agree.  It's a mobile piece of debris that anyone

13     could have kicked away.  That it had been there before the explosion,

14     it's out of the question.  It was very near the surface.  Anyone could

15     have shifted it from -- with their foot.  It could have landed here.

16     It's just a decorative piece on the door frame.  It's much better visible

17     on the photograph than in the film.  It's a yellow brass colour.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this photograph

19     admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D899, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see again 1D02853.  Can we

23     have both photos at the same time on a split screen.  Keep this photo and

24     put 1D02853.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9472

 1        Q.   Mr. Besic, look carefully.  Near this metal thing, what can we

 2     see?  We see the cleared scene.  Where is the platelet at this moment?

 3        A.   At this moment, I don't see it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Before you -- already you answered.

 5             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I just wanted to point out for the Court that there

 7     are much higher -- crisper -- higher-definition, crisper versions of

 8     these photographs in P1970, photographs number 4 and 7.  I simply want to

 9     make the Court aware of that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, and the degree of zooming in is also different.

11             Yes, can you take a look at P1970.  You mean on the right side?

12             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, the photograph on the right side should be

13     P1970, page 7, and the one on the left should be P1970, number 4.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I beg your pardon, but I take it that this --

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, the degree of zoom is entirely different in the

16     two.

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, but I'm not sure whether this picture is

18     identical to 1D2853.  1D2853 is taken from the -- is a still from the

19     video, but this pictures is a --

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Photographs --

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- photograph taken by the witness.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We have to confirm, then, this photograph is

24     identical to the scene from the video.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.  We can do that now or I can do it in redirect,

Page 9473

 1     as Your Honours wish.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So can you compare the two photos, the one on the

 3     left side, still - we'd like to see the still, which is 1D2853 - and this

 4     picture, the right-side picture?  We have to be satisfied the two

 5     photos -- two images are identical.

 6             If the Defence accepts this or -- Mr. Besic, can you help us with

 7     this, whether the two images are showing the same place at the same time?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It's just that they are

 9     photographed from different angles.  This one is from 90 degrees and the

10     other one is from a slightly greater distance and at an angle.  But when

11     you take the markings on the asphalt surface, then you can tell that it's

12     identical.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Besic, before any cleaning, we see the tile?

15        A.   But this has been cleared.

16        Q.   No, I'm speaking about the first photograph that I showed to you

17     when you arrived, before you did anything.  We see the tile.  Then we

18     don't see the tile.  Then it's dug out and we see the tile?

19        A.   I am saying again, and I stand by that, there is a possibility --

20     you are seeing on these photographs footprints of people who are moving

21     around, people from the investigation team.  It's possible that somebody

22     took the tile, accidentally kicked it.  It just happened to be there by

23     accident.  It has nothing to do with anything.  It's just a tile.  It's

24     on the photograph, on the video footage.  On the photograph, we see it

25     there after the surface around the center around the centre of the

Page 9474

 1     explosion was cleaned.  The tile is there.  The tile is also there at the

 2     moment when the centre was being cleaned.  It's there.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  That remains to be

 4     analysed further by us.

 5             Can we now have the footage from 0:13 to 0:19, and then we'll

 6     take a still from there.  From 0:13 to 0:19.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The photograph is

 9     1D2856.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is this the place of the explosion, Mr. Besic?

12        A.   No, it's not.

13        Q.   What can we see on this photograph?

14        A.   This is the street that divides the market from this building in

15     22nd December Street, Dvanaestog Decembra.  We know which building that

16     is.  And then there are stands along the building.  It's a small street.

17     It's 3 metres' wide.  That exit onto Mustafa Baseskije Street, the

18     explosion landed from the right side, and this is damage that was

19     created.

20        Q.   And in relation to this red piece of furniture, this trunk, where

21     is the place of explosion?

22        A.   You don't see it from here.  It's some 7 to 8 metres away from

23     there to the right.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D2856.  This is a

25     film still, but can we look at 1D2856, please.

Page 9475

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In relation to this box, the explosion is to the right; is that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes, some 7 to 8 metres.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, we will leave that.  We

 6     don't need to tender this.

 7             Can we now have 1D1031, please.  1D1031, this is the film footage

 8     from 1:04:20 to 04:22.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11        Q.   Do you see -- do you recognise Markale I here, Mr. Besic?

12        A.   Of course, I recognise it very well.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have the photograph from

14     the film, 1D2857.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When was this recorded, Mr. Besic?

17        A.   I really don't know.  I don't know.  I think that -- I really --

18     I don't know.  I can't tell.  I think that this was not recorded by the

19     CSB staff, specifically by my colleague Mr. Sadikovic.  I don't think

20     that he recorded that.

21        Q.   So there were a number of people who were filming.  You said that

22     there weren't.

23        A.   I'm only speaking about the CSB staff.  Sadikovic, he did not

24     film this.  As for others, I really don't know.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we play this footage so that

Page 9476

 1     you can see what this looks like and for us to -- and for you to tell us

 2     what one can see here.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, could you give the 65 ter number of

 4     this again?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D1031.  This is a 1D Defence

 6     exhibit, 1D1031.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is -- well, can you please pay attention, if you recognise

10     anyone.

11             Who is this gentleman?  Do you know this man?

12        A.   I don't know him personally, but I assume that on the basis of

13     his accreditation or ID, that he could have been a member of the

14     Stari Grad police force.  I don't know him personally.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that at this point in time, there are no

16     items for sale on the stalls anywhere?

17        A.   But you can see from the previous recording that people were

18     gathering their things on the stalls.  Some people were also collecting

19     tissue, extremities and so on.  So this footage started from some person

20     who was put into a vehicle.  The leg remained behind.  Later, it was put

21     inside.  I don't know whether this is a police force member.  I thought

22     that I could tell by the ID, but --

23        Q.   Sir, Mr. Besic, are you able to tell me how come that the

24     artificial leg from the sidewalk is being taken back to the market, and

25     why?

Page 9477

 1        A.   I really don't know why they did that.  I don't know.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I'm confused with the number.  What

 3     is the number for this video?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The entire footage is 1D1031.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  1D1031 was the number for the Radio Hayat broadcast.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a part of an exhibit of the

 7     Defence, an audio-visual compilation of what was broadcast on Bosnian

 8     television and radio, Your Excellency.  And for the --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             So it is your explanation that the audio file and video file were

11     all compiled in one compilation by the Defence; is that your explanation?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  This was broadcast on Muslim

13     television.  We see the artificial leg here that was left at this place.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  The words which appeared in red a moment ago were, I

15     believe, placed there by the Karadzic Defence.  I want to note that for

16     the record.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I still have difficulty allocating the number.

18     1D1031 was allocated as the radio broadcast, and what we marked for

19     identification was only those parts .  So I would recommend you to use

20     another 65 ter number for the future purpose.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is fine.

22             Can we then have this treated as 1D1031.2?

23             JUDGE KWON:  1031A, following the practice of the Prosecution.

24     But let's carry on.  1D1031A refers to the video shots of the Markale I

25     after the incident.

Page 9478

 1             So where are we, Mr. Karadzic?  What is your question?

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I would like to ask you this now, Mr. Besic:  In your opinion,

 4     can a shell land at a place like this without hitting any of the stall

 5     roofing, can it fall between the buildings?  You know what this opening

 6     looks like that faces the north/north-east as is the incoming direction

 7     believed to be.  How come that the shell didn't affect anything else?

 8        A.   I think you're mistaken.  You saw that the roofing of the stalls

 9     were used as stretchers for people to take corpses away to the morgue,

10     but this roofing was ripped off before.  There was a lot of destruction.

11     A lot of the stalls were moved, turned to the side as people were being

12     taken out.  And you can see this cart that was used for transporting the

13     corpses, and even you can see, next to the cart, a corpse.  People were

14     using all kinds of things that were there in order to help the

15     casualties.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry for my frequent intervention.  But,

17     Mr. Karadzic, what we seeing on the e-court monitor is 1D2857?  It's a --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The photographs -- the stills from

19     the film we treated differently.  We gave them a different number.  The

20     number of the footage is the one that we gave.  This is a still taken

21     from the footage.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             For the record, Mr. Besic, could you read the B/C/S part which

24     appears on that screen?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says:

Page 9479

 1             "Artificial leg after the explosion."

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Besic, I understand that an explosion ripped some roofs away.

 6     But on contact with a stall roofing, would the shell have been activated?

 7        A.   Since it's a plastic part, I'm sure that it would have, I think

 8     that it would have, but it didn't touch any roofing.  It just landed like

 9     that.  It could have touched the supermarket roof, but it didn't land

10     there.  It landed where it landed, and what happened, happened.

11        Q.   Yes.  It kind of slipped through to quite a degree, didn't it?

12        A.   Well, I assume that you know what a mortar shell is like.  A

13     person with a good eye and good firing elements can fire wherever they

14     want.

15        Q.   What is the distance between the roofs?  What is the distance

16     between the roofs of the stalls?

17        A.   I don't know if it's a metre, or maybe not even that.  The place

18     where it exploded, there is a line of stalls along the supermarket.  Then

19     there's a space of some metre wide, and then along the length the stalls

20     are arranged.  There is a metre or a metre 20 width there.

21        Q.   Can we agree, Mr. Besic, that if we imagine a circle -- a

22     concentric circle around the explosion, that 40 per cent of the circle

23     would then go to the wall of the neighbouring building; is that correct?

24        A.   You have to clarify that for me, please.

25        Q.   The shell landed close to a wall; is that correct?

Page 9480

 1        A.   Yes.  That wall actually is just like a supporting wall that is a

 2     metre broad, and then you have the proper wall of the supermarket.  And

 3     the stalls are arranged along this front short wall, and then there is a

 4     line of stalls there, and then there is a line of the other stalls.

 5        Q.   What I'm trying to say:  In that part, 35 to 40 per cent of the

 6     circle, in that area there were no people because that is the space that

 7     is occupied by the wall; is that correct?

 8        A.   You cannot get to the wall because the stalls are there.  The

 9     stalls are leaning against this short wall.  It's some 30 to 40

10     centimetres' width between the proper wall and this shorter wall.

11        Q.   Mr. Besic, I state that a large number of the shrapnel did not

12     dissipate in this area of the circle that is some 60 per cent of its

13     overall area.  They all went into the area of the 40 per cent of the

14     circle, where the wall -- how do you explain that?  The wall is there

15     which cuts at a tangent this area where the shrapnel dissipated, so can

16     you imagine that there was an equal number of people on all four sides?

17     In that case, how can you explain that there are so many people who were

18     killed and wounded in that area?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Besic:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  It appeared to me, Mr. President, that we're heading

21     into the area of expert evidence concerning the distribution of shrapnel

22     following an explosion.  This isn't the correct witness for that.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, this witness is not and does not

24     ever claim to be an expert in ballistics or the way in which shrapnel is

25     likely to be distributed by an explosion.  His expertise is

Page 9481

 1     ex post facto.

 2             In addition, you are actually giving evidence as much as you're

 3     asking questions.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             I apologise.  We can withdraw that.  I just wanted to point to

 6     the fact that it was not a full circle.  I wanted to confirm from the

 7     witness that there was no full circle of distribution or dissipation,

 8     because it dropped close to the wall.

 9             All right, we'll do that with another witness.

10             All right.  Can we now move to Markale II.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   This is an incident which you also investigated; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What was your task in the incident?

15        A.   Just like the previous incident of Markale I, in Markale II my

16     task was the same, which means that I had to look at the scene of the

17     crime, make the video footage, make a sketch, and collect material

18     evidence.

19        Q.   Thank you.  When did you arrive at this scene of the incident?

20        A.   Probably we will have some problems again between the time of

21     notification and arrival.  You need to be flexible, if I may put it that

22     way.  It is chaos, after all.  Times were different.  So this was an

23     identical situation.  We need from 40 to an hour's time in order to set

24     up the investigation team, so it took us, again, 40 to 50 minutes to form

25     a team which then came to the scene.  Some came by car, some walked.  In

Page 9482

 1     any case, we all met up in front of Markale, and the investigation began

 2     pursuant to the instructions by the investigating judge.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Before you began the investigation, there was some

 4     actions that were done there before.  How did you find the place when you

 5     arrived?

 6        A.   You need to clarify "actions."  "Actions," what do you mean?  Are

 7     you talking about the buildings or did something happen when we arrived

 8     there?  The investigation came.  When we came, we found a clear area

 9     without anyone at the location.  It was secured by the

10     Centar Police Administration personnel so that nobody was actually at the

11     scene.

12        Q.   Again, in your team, did you have your own videographer?

13        A.   Yes, I did.  This was Suad Dzumisic.

14        Q.   And did the police have any other videographers for these

15     incidents?

16        A.   No, always one would be part of the team.  He is part of the

17     team, only one; no one else.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was the street closed to traffic before the explosion

19     and at the time of the explosion?

20        A.   No, the street was open.  Vehicles were able to move.  The trams

21     were not operating, so whoever had petrol could drive.  After the

22     explosion, after the incident, no vehicles passed.  It was not possible

23     because the area was secured.

24        Q.   But a vehicle did pass and damaged the stabiliser; is that

25     correct?

Page 9483

 1        A.   No, no.  The stabiliser -- you saw the footage, you saw the

 2     chaos, and you saw how many vehicles passed.  Nobody was taking -- paying

 3     attention to the stabiliser, the stabiliser was probably damaged by one

 4     of the vehicles.  It was flattened.  It wasn't even found at the place

 5     where it was supposed to be.  It was someone 2 to 3 metres away from the

 6     explosion.  But it's a movable piece of evidence that somebody can

 7     accidentally kick away.  So you cannot always determine its fixed place,

 8     as was the case in Markale I with the stabiliser.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you get information that a vehicle was damaged

10     that was passing by at the moment of the explosion?  Did you have

11     information that any vehicles were there in the street at the point of

12     explosion?

13        A.   No, I don't know of any such information.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And who was securing the scene?

15        A.   The scene was secured by the police of the Centar SUP or MUP.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I need to make pauses.  I believe that the

17     interpreters are having difficulties with the two of us.

18             So can we say when -- can you say when the investigation began?

19        A.   Well, I'm not sure whether we started in 40 minutes or in an

20     hour, but it was certainly within the hour that the investigation began.

21     The time was from 40 minutes to 1 hour.

22        Q.   All right.  At that point in time, did you find the UNPROFOR

23     there or did UNPROFOR representatives arrive later, after you came to the

24     scene and began your investigation?

25        A.   In my photo documentation, you can see photographs on the first

Page 9484

 1     or second page.  You can see what the scene looked like from two

 2     directions, and you can see that there is nobody -- there isn't a single

 3     person in that area, which means that the scene was secured and no one

 4     was there until we arrived.  The first person who entered that scene was

 5     myself.  This is the case for Markale I and Markale II, because it's my

 6     job to photograph the scene as I found it, and to photograph the center

 7     of the explosion, and to collect evidence.  I was also, throughout that

 8     whole activity, recorded by my colleague, Mr. Suad Dzumisic.  If you look

 9     at the footage, you'll be able to see me cleaning the center of the

10     explosion.  This time I used a broom.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Before you arrived, the chaos, the evacuation, all of

12     that preceded the cleaning that you did and the whole investigation; is

13     that correct?

14        A.   The reason why we came was what happened, what we saw on the

15     recording.  After the victims were helped and the bodies were taken away,

16     the police automatically secured the scene of the incident.  A team was

17     formed.  In order for the team to have been formed, the Communications

18     Centre had to have been notified.  An order was issued for the team to

19     form, and the team then went to the scene.

20        Q.   Did you make the sketch which is part of the documentation?

21        A.   I did not make a sketch, but I did help my colleague,

22     Salko Cerimagic.  The two of us did it together, after everything was

23     cleared up and everybody went off.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we have 65 ter 09899, please.  09899.  And then after

Page 9485

 1     identifying the first page, can we please look at page 3.

 2             I hope that, Your Excellencies, you will tell me when the break

 3     is.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, we will take a break now.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  When we resume, I ask you, Mr. Karadzic and

 7     Mr. Besic, to put a pause between your questions and answers.

 8             We'll have a break for half an hour.  We will resume at 11.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Besic, we will discuss other incidents while my associates

14     review the material we have recently received.  We got this video, for

15     instance, just before we came into the courtroom, and we haven't had time

16     to view it fully.  But we are thankful to you for bringing it.

17             May I now ask you if you participated in the investigation of the

18     incident of the 24th, the day before Markale?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   What was your role there?

21        A.   Just as in the case of Markale, it was the same with Dobrinja I

22     or Dobrinja II; investigating the crime scene and all the actions

23     involved.  Let me not repeat.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I need not call up this record

25     of on-site investigation, on which your name features.

Page 9486

 1             We can call up 09167, but I believe it's been admitted already.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Just for the record, I think there may have been an

 4     interpretation error.  I believe that the question might have related to

 5     the Dobrinja incident on the 4th of February, which was one day before

 6     the Markale I incident, which was on the 5th of February.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought I said the same, but I

 9     did not mention Dobrinja, just the date, the 4th of February.

10             Could we now look up 1D2191, a plan of Dobrinja.  Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you mark on this map the place where the incident occurred,

13     the one you investigated?  Do you agree that this street is marked as

14     "353," "Sarajevo Liberator Street," "Ulica Oslobodilaca Sarajeva"?

15        A.   The street is called the Bulevar of Sarajevo Defenders, 352.

16        Q.   Do you agree that it's 353?  It crosses the Bulevar of

17     Mimar Sinana?

18        A.   Yes, this is it, and this is the plateau where the shell landed.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that these lines, the vertical lines,

20     point north-south?

21        A.   Can you repeat that question?

22        Q.   Do you agree that these vertical lines, like on any map, show the

23     directions north-south?

24        A.   Right.

25        Q.   Parallel with this vertical line, would you draw a line that goes

Page 9487

 1     north-south across this street of Sarajevo Defenders?

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put the letter N for "North" at the top, the

 4     date, and your signature?

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D900, Your Honours.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You are one of the authors of the photo documentation in the

11     investigation of this incident; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Can you tell us why this photo documentation does not include the

14     place where the projectile landed in this street outside number 8?  And

15     to assist you, I'll call up 65 ter 09617.

16             Can we see the Serbian.  The Serbian version -- the cover page of

17     the Serbian version is ERN 1025-804, 804.  The 65 ter is 09617, and ERN

18     is 1025-804.

19             Is this the cover page of the photo file for this incident?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we now see page 22.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this the place?

25        A.   Yes, that's the plateau behind the garage in the said street.

Page 9488

 1     It's the broader view of the place where two projectiles landed.  We see

 2     one arrow, and the other arrow is to the right.

 3        Q.   Did two or three shells land?

 4        A.   According to eye-witnesses, there were three.  We processed only

 5     two of them because they inflicted a lot of damage and five or six people

 6     were wounded.  The third shell did not inflict much damage and did not

 7     hurt anyone, so we did not work on it.  It was all done in agreement with

 8     the prosecutor, I think, Zdenko Eterovic, or, rather, he was the

 9     investigating judge.

10        Q.   Do you agree it would have been easier to determine all the

11     elements based on three points of impact instead of two?

12        A.   Certainly.  But even with one or two points of impact, you can

13     determine the direction from which the projectile came.

14        Q.   Would you mark on this photograph where this third shell landed

15     in red?

16        A.   You don't see that area on this photograph.  It fell behind, on

17     the Ulica Branilaca Sarajeva Street, behind these buildings, not in this

18     area.

19        Q.   Then we won't deal with that incident anymore, because you did

20     there the same as in every other incident.  You collected the evidence

21     and made the photo documentation?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   But I'd like to know why the photo documentation doesn't include

24     that third point of impact, regardless of whether you worked on it or

25     not?

Page 9489

 1        A.   Well, we couldn't include it because we did not work on it.  We

 2     did not investigate that impact.  We concentrated on the first two.

 3        Q.   Now I'd like to focus on the incident of 18 November 1994.

 4     That's Attachment 4 on Schedule F.  It's an incident involving

 5     Dzenana Sokolovic and her son.  Did you investigate that incident?

 6        A.   The leader was Ermin Kazic.  I was assisting him in case he

 7     needed assistance, but I did go to the scene and I know what that

 8     incident involved.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 10418.

10             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, can I just make a brief

11     observation, Mr. Karadzic.

12             You asked the witness to mark on the map, and we admitted as

13     evidence as D900, which we saw already several times before.  But you

14     didn't ask any question in relation to this, so I find it sort of wasting

15     time.  So take into account such factors in the future.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe we did not waste more

17     than one minute, Your Excellency, but it was important for us that the

18     witness confirm the place and the orientation according to the azimuth.

19     I hope it was not too wasteful.

20             Can we see page 2 of this document.

21             I did get a satisfactory answer regarding the place of the

22     incident, and the fact that the third shell was not dealt with, and

23     concerning the orientation to the north.

24             Page 2, please.  Next page, the official report.

25             Next one, then.

Page 9490

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Under number 5, do you see your name in a list of seven members

 3     of the investigating team?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Was this document signed by the same person, Salko Alimagic [as

 6     interpreted], who was on the scene with you 28th of August?  Cerimagic,

 7     Salko Cerimagic.  How is Mr. Salko Cerimagic signed here?

 8        A.   As an inspector, I believe, because it is inspectors who make

 9     official reports from the crime scene, listing everyone who came out to

10     the scene, and they describe the incident.

11        Q.   This incident took place in November 1994.  How come that in

12     August 1995, he was signed as a scene-of-crime officer?

13        A.   Salko normally was a scene-of-crime officer, even before the war.

14     But during the war he was transferred from one service to another by

15     virtue of his superiors' orders, and from scene-of-crime officer he

16     became an inspector in the CSB.

17        Q.   That would have been a promotion.  However, this is not a

18     promotion.  In 1994, he was an inspector.  In 1995, he was a

19     scenes-of-crime officer.

20        A.   Then I -- then I confused the two.  But his title is

21     "scenes-of-crime officer."  That's his position.

22        Q.   Do you know exactly where this incident took place?

23        A.   Yes.  It's on the crossing of these streets, Franjo Racki Street

24     and Zmaja od Bosne Street.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D2858.

Page 9491

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   While we're waiting, where was the injured party,

 3     Dzenana Sokolovic, at the time that the shell hit, on the pavement or on

 4     the driveway?

 5        A.   On the driveway, because most of that street was protected by

 6     rubbish containers stacked one on top of another.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise, on this aerial photograph, these buildings?

 8        A.   Let me try to find my way here.  I don't see any landmarks.

 9        Q.   Do you see, in the park, the buildings of the land museum, then

10     the Franjo Racki Street which crosses what was formerly Zmaja od Bosne

11     Street, then the university buildings, then the government buildings?

12     Can you use those as landmarks to mark the place of the incident?  You

13     can see the municipality building and the Executive Council.

14        A.   If you can help me, is this the Vrbanja Bridge [marks]?

15        Q.   Right.

16        A.   In that case, the incident was here [marks].  I see the

17     Catholic Church.  Looking from this side, it's 50 to 100 metres away from

18     the church.  Dumpsters were placed all across this section.

19        Q.   Where was the injured party and her child?  Mark the place.

20        A.   It's a broad area, but it should be here [marks].  Yes, roughly

21     there, just next to the dumpsters, 3, 4, 5 metres from the dumpsters.

22             The on-site investigation was very sparse and very difficult to

23     do.  We could not access the site in order to investigate, so it boils

24     down to what the UN members were able to do.  We did all our work from a

25     distance.

Page 9492

 1        Q.   Now, according to your conclusions, where did the projectile come

 2     from?  Can you draw that line?

 3        A.   It's very difficult to say now where it came from.  We did not

 4     have the opportunity to see the woman on the site to at least be able to

 5     determine -- based on entry and exit wounds, we don't know from which

 6     direction -- in which direction the woman was moving with her child.  So

 7     it's very hard to say anything positive about this case.

 8        Q.   If you can't draw the line, where did the shell come from?

 9        A.   According to witness statements, it came from the other side of

10     Miljacka, from this part of Grbavica, according to witness statements.

11     If I draw a line, it would be this [marks].

12        Q.   And who held this area at the end of this line?

13        A.   You mean the Tito Street, Zmaja od Bosne Street, or across the

14     Miljacka River?

15        Q.   Across the Miljacka River.

16        A.   The right-hand side was held by the BH Army and the left-hand

17     side by the VRS.

18        Q.   At the end of this line, do you recognise the current building of

19     Aero?  It used to be the Unioninvest building?

20        A.   Yes.  The Metalka company building is also there.  That should be

21     the direction, but it's hard to say.

22        Q.   Can you put number 1 at the site and number 2 next to the

23     Unioninvest building?

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Next, number 3 by the Metalka building?

Page 9493

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And your date -- and your signature and date?

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D901, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Mr. Besic, what kind of material clues did you find -- what kind

 9     of physical evidence did you find on the site?

10        A.   There was not much physical evidence, apart from blood-stains, a

11     rather large pool of blood, and some sand.  That's what we found.  We did

12     not find the bodies, just that pool of blood and sand.  Now, who

13     covered -- who poured the sand, I don't know.  Some reports say that UN

14     representatives poured sand on the site, but we don't know.  We did not

15     have access.  We could not approach.

16        Q.   Were UNPROFOR members there when you were investigating?

17        A.   Yes, that large APC was already placed across the street.  We

18     found them there.

19        Q.   So somebody altered this scene by pouring sand and also water?

20        A.   It was certainly not us, the investigating team.  We just

21     described the scene as we found it.  Now, who did it?  According to

22     witness statements, it was the UN representatives, but it's impossible to

23     say with certainty.

24        Q.   The official report says that the entry wound is on the

25     right-hand side and the exit wound on the left-hand side of the abdomen

Page 9494

 1     of Dzenana Sokolovic.  Do you want me to call up the document or do you

 2     remember it?

 3        A.   Yes, I remember it.  I don't know from which direction Dzenana

 4     was walking, towards Gornji Grad or from down-town towards Cengic Vila.

 5     I don't know.

 6        Q.   That was never established, was it?

 7        A.   It wasn't.  And it's difficult to determine the direction of the

 8     projectile just on the basis of the entry and exit wounds, because it

 9     changes a lot, which direction it came from.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call up 65 ter 10418.

11     [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We are not getting any translation.

13             Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see the problem.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   My question was:  How come -- how can you explain that the

17     official report by the investigating commission says that the entry wound

18     is on the right side of the body of Dzenana Sokolovic and the exit wound

19     is on the left side, and in the medical file it's quite the reverse?

20        A.   Yes, somebody confused this.  I believe that my colleague did not

21     describe it accurately, and it was at that time it was very difficult.

22     There was only one pathologist -- one forensic pathologist working.  His

23     opinion and his report would have been authoritative about the entry and

24     exit wounds.  And the people who were assisting the doctor were not

25     knowledgeable enough to determine which wound was entry and which was

Page 9495

 1     exit.  That's how the problem occurred.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 4 in English and

 3     page 5 in Serbian.

 4        Q.   The late Ilijas Dobraca could make a determination about the

 5     child, because the child was killed, and the surgeon was to report on

 6     Dzenana Sokolovic because he was treating her, and they did report, they

 7     did make their determinations.

 8             Can we now see page 4 in English and page 3 in Serbian.

 9             So you think it's your colleague who was confused about the

10     different sides of the body or the doctors?

11        A.   Well, to be honest, I would think that it was probably my

12     colleague, rather than the doctor, who made the mistake.  Now, when he

13     got the documents and went to the site, or whether he did go there and

14     discuss this with a doctor, because the report was compiled some three

15     months later or so, it is possible that he made that error.

16        Q.   Well, here we see that this report was prepared on the 19th of

17     November; in other words, on the next day.  So if you look at the last

18     paragraph, where it says :

19             "The interview conducted at the Sarajevo KCU, admissions and

20     triage dispensary yielded information that the wounded woman,

21     Dzenana Sokolovic, had received an entry-and-exit wound in the abdominal

22     area and was admitted for treatment at the KCU abdominal clinic.  The

23     entry wound was on the right and the exit wound on the left side of the

24     abdomen.  The son of Dzenana Sokolovic, Nermin Divovic, aged seven,

25     succumbed to his wounds on the way to hospital and his body was

Page 9496

 1     transported to the mortuary.  During admission, the doctors established

 2     an entry-and-exit wound to the head of the body of Nermin Divovic.  The

 3     entry wound was at the back of the head, above the right ear, and the

 4     exit wound on the face, below the left eye."

 5             Is it true that both of them were actually injured or killed by

 6     one single shot?  One version has it that it had actually exited and

 7     wounded the mother, the bullet just went through her, and then hit the

 8     child?

 9        A.   Well, there's just one comment here.  The only thing that is true

10     is that it killed the child and went through the mother's body.

11        Q.   Yes, but the projectile -- it was determined that the projectile

12     travelled or had this path; is it correct?

13        A.   Well, I'm not sure where the shot -- where the bullet was

14     recovered from.  Whether it was found in the mother's body or not, I'm

15     not sure.  I can't really say.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we now see page 9 of this report.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Here we see the applied treatment of Dzenana.

20             And I believe we need the last page.  That's five pages further.

21     Thank you.

22             Now, is this an excerpt from the protocol on the examination and

23     autopsy of the body, where it says that this is a blast injury, that the

24     entry wound was on the right cheek and the exit wound on the left side of

25     the head, in the back, and it was signed by Dr. Ilijas Dobraca, whereas

Page 9497

 1     on the previous page we see that the path of this shot or this projectile

 2     was described in the reverse; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct, it was that the entry is at the back of the

 4     head and the exit on the right-hand -- on the right cheek.

 5        Q.   Well, is it true that it was not properly established, the

 6     trajectory of the path, the bullet canal, and the place where the victims

 7     were?

 8        A.   Well, here we cannot really determine the orientation.  We could

 9     not determine it because we -- they weren't on site.  But the only thing

10     we could go by was the witness statements.  And based on the information

11     that we can see, that were written down, in fact, there are some

12     discrepancies, and I agree that it is difficult to determine exactly what

13     happened.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that in peacetime, your work

15     conditions were far better and that you had all the necessary parameters

16     in order to establish the facts because you were able to actually find

17     the injured parties on the site, itself?

18        A.   Well, yes, and based on that it was possible to determine the

19     direction from which the projectile had come.  That's something that it

20     was possible to do in peacetime, but in wartime we also had occasion to

21     proceed like that.  But in this particular case, that was impossible.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

23     not overlap or not follow so soon one after the other.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You are advised again by the interpreters to put a

25     pause.

Page 9498

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I thought I was speaking --

 2     or I am speaking Serbian, and Mr. Besic Bosnian, which would mean that

 3     two different languages are spoken.  But apparently we are speaking the

 4     same language.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all that matters is that we

 6     can understand each other.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Let me ask this -- oh, may I ask whether these documents that

 9     we've just shown under these numbers and the pages that we indicated -- I

10     would actually like to tender them, so can I ask whether they've been

11     admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I believe they're in as P459, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Then we can remove it

16     from the screen.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now, let us go back to Markale II, the incident of 28th of

19     August, 1995.  You took part in preparing this sketch.

20             Could we please have 65 ter 09899 on the screens.

21             Can you recognise this cover page?  We see also Salko Cerimagic's

22     name there?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have page 3 in

25     Serbian, and I believe it's the same page in English.  Perhaps we can

Page 9499

 1     only have the English version before us.  Thank you.

 2             Can we rotate it, please.  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Sir, could you indicate on this sketch where the north bearing

 5     is?

 6             You can see the tram tracks; right?  You can recognise that?

 7        A.   Well, certainly I can.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask some assistance, please.

 9     We need the pen, the electronic pen.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think we are having some technical difficulties.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE KWON:  The electronic pen does not seem to work at this

13     moment.

14             Could we do something else, Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

16             In that case -- well, may I just ask, can we revisit this sketch

17     later on?  Apparently, that will be possible.  Then we'll move on to

18     something else and then get back to this later.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you -- have you ever seen the portion of the video-clip that

21     was made before you arrived on the crime scene?

22        A.   Well, if you're asking about the video-clip we saw yesterday, I

23     had occasion to see it on TV earlier on.  There were several journalists

24     there and -- who were filming all this, and later on it was shown and

25     broadcast in the main news programme.

Page 9500

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you have any explanation as to how a TV

 2     Sarajevo journalist happened to be on-site just at the time of the

 3     incident?

 4        A.   Well, I don't think that they were on-site, themselves.  I think

 5     they received this video material also from some foreign journalists, and

 6     these people roamed the streets all the time, so -- in order to be able

 7     to film the events.  I think that's how it was done.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Could we now see P1450.  That is a video-clip.  It was admitted

10     as P1450, so can we see it from 3:28 to 3:35.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see it one more time,

13     please?

14             Right here, let's stay here.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, can you see here that we have quite a few uniformed persons,

17     and apparently they're wearing military uniforms here in this frame?  We

18     can see that; correct?

19        A.   Yes, we can see that.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have -- could we now

21     admit this particular frame, 1D2859, and get a number for it?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Is it possible to capture this image and keep it as

23     a separate still image?

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE KWON:  They say it's not possible.

Page 9501

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do have our own still.  That's

 2     1D2859.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, we'll up-load that, 1D2859.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we rotate it so that we can see

 5     it in full.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This is the same still, but now it appears as a still image.  Is

 8     it true -- is it correct that these people are outside the northerly

 9     entrance to the market-place?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Would you now please mark, approximately, on this

12     still, the point of impact where the shell landed, knowing that the

13     entrance is facing north?

14             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure it has been fixed.  Shall we give --

15     shall we give it a try?  No.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I thought it had been fixed.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can tell you that the man

18     standing with the blue top, and where these two uniformed men are

19     standing, that is where the point of impact was.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   In other words, the man in the blue -- in the dark blue or kind

22     of navy blue top, he is standing close to the centre of the explosion?

23        A.   Yes, and these two soldiers.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             In that case, could we please admit this photo into evidence?

Page 9502

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you try to mark it?

 2             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Would you please date this photo?

 6        A.   [Marks].

 7        Q.   And we know from the transcript that approximately where you put

 8     the circle, that's where the centre of the explosion was.  Well, we can

 9     see -- I'm not going to count them all, but we can see there are five to

10     six soldiers in this photo; correct?

11        A.   Yes, I agree with you.  There are five, exactly.

12        Q.   Do you know who these soldiers are?  What unit did they belong

13     to?

14        A.   No, I have no idea.  And I can just say what I said yesterday,

15     the market, Markale, was an open-type market and anyone could go buy

16     whatever they needed, so I do not rule out that these soldiers went there

17     to perhaps buy or sell cigarettes, or lighters, or something like that.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             I would like to tender this, please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted as ...?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D902, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we now have 09899, 65 ter, page 3, the sketch.  Can we

25     revisit that, the sketch that we had before us a moment ago.

Page 9503

 1             Could you please just wait for the pen to be active.

 2             Yes, here now we have it.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Would you please mark north, once you can -- once you have the

 5     pen?

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   And indicate with an arrow what the direction of north would be.

 8        A.   [Marks]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, here we see the town market.  Would you please

10     indicate number 1 -- with a number 1 the building where the market is?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, would you please indicate the northern entrance

13     outside of which the shell landed?

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Put the number 2 there, please.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Now, can you please place the point of impact?

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, all of this is explained in the

19     legend provided with this sketch.  This is a complete repetition of that

20     information.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I think so, but we could up-load it, the English

22     version, as originally suggested by the accused.  It's all marked there.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, could we then have the legend

24     before us, too, so that we can just have the witness confirm it.

25             Can we split the screen and then show the legend on one half of

Page 9504

 1     the screen and this sketch on the other.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   While we wait for this:  Mr. Besic, you said earlier today that

 4     the stabiliser was how far from the point of impact, the center of the

 5     explosion?

 6        A.   Do you mean where we found it and took photos?

 7        Q.   Yes, where you established that it was in your investigation.

 8        A.   Well, it was some 45 to 50 metres from the -- from the scene, and

 9     I said that it was possible that it was -- it is possible that a

10     stabiliser may be a bit off, a bit away from the center of the explosion,

11     a metre or so to one side or the other.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have the legend,

13     please.  This is not quite that.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So number 1 is the place of impact; right?  Number 2, a body

16     part, a right foot, and so on and so forth.  Then number 6 is the

17     motorbike?

18        A.   7 and 8, we have "child's canvas shoe" and then "left hand."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we see the next page of the text.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Under 12, we see the stabiliser.  Could you now please put a

23     circle around number 12?

24        A.   This is the place where the projectile was recovered [marks].

25     And because you come from Sarajevo, you know that this is where the

Page 9505

 1     Vlasic store was.

 2        Q.   Yes.  Now, was it recovered on the pavement?

 3        A.   Yes.  It was found right outside the store that I just mentioned.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please put a number 1 there -- or, rather,

 5     put a circle around the number 1 that we already have indicated on the

 6     sketch.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   That is the point of impact; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Yes, thank you.  Well, please date and sign this photo, and then

11     we can move on to the next one.

12        A.   [Marks]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to admit -- to tender

14     this.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D903, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But, again, I really don't see the point of this

18     exercise.  It's already there, number 12.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but I would like for us to be

20     able to establish, finally, where the stabiliser was recovered from.  We

21     have all kinds of information, ranging from 5 metres to 40 metres, and

22     then later on we will see that there are other attempts to tamper with

23     the stabiliser.

24             Now, as for the new photo that we got from this witness, we could

25     see that the stabiliser was on the roadway and that that is where it was

Page 9506

 1     filmed by UNPROFOR members, and we will see that there's a whole Rashomon

 2     story here about this stabiliser, all kinds of different versions.

 3             Now, could we see P1450 from 3:52 to 3:54.  This is a video-clip.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And let me ask you, Witness, whether there were any military

 6     installations or any troops in that area?  Now can you see, Witness,

 7     would you take a look at this.  Is this just another --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the question.

 9     The interpreter could not hear the end.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The interpreters didn't hear your

11     previous question, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The first question was whether there were any troops in this area

14     and whether there were any military installations nearby.

15        A.   I don't know that there were any military units deployed there in

16     the very center.  I said yesterday that there were some at the military

17     hall, the one-time military hall, and right here we see that there is a

18     soldier or a police officer carrying a weapon.

19        Q.   And how far is this from where the troops were deployed?

20        A.   Well, I think some 400 to 500 metres.  There's a park in between

21     and so on.

22        Q.   Do you mean four to five football fields?

23        A.   Well, I think 400 to 500 metres, that would be a stadium away.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, could we please play this

25     video on so that we can show that this is actually a soldier, because

Page 9507

 1     soldiers wore green uniforms and the police had blue ones.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct, but there were also some camouflage

 5     uniforms.  At this time, there already were camouflage uniforms for the

 6     police as well.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So first we see one soldier, and

 9     then we see another one appearing in this footage.

10             Can we go back to 1D2860, 1D2860.  I would like that to be shown,

11     and then I would like to tender it.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you agree, Mr. Besic, that this doorway or entrance that we

14     see here is, in fact, the doorway or entrance to a building called

15     "Semberija"?

16        A.   Do you mean where the soldier is standing?

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   Well, no.  As I mentioned earlier, that is the Vlasic store.

19     That's what it used to be.  Now, across the street from that is

20     Semberija.  You see where you can see the wall pocked and some markings

21     there.  They were damaged by bullets and fragments.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know that the Semberija building was used

23     by the BH Army as a quarter-master storage area?

24        A.   Well, I know that it was used as a bakery and that they made

25     bread there for units and so on.  It was a bakery, basically.  But the

Page 9508

 1     fact that it was used by members of the army or the police, well, they

 2     used it in order to get their bread there, because that's where the bread

 3     was baked and distributed from.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Now, can we have a still, 1D2860.  Can we have that still or that

 6     photo on the screen, please.  Yes.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Now, would you please indicate on this photo -- or could you

 9     actually date it and sign it?

10             Or, rather, can we tender this without the witness's signature?

11     Is it necessary?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think his signature is necessary.  We'll

13     admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D904, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just for your information, that you'll have an hour

16     left.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That is why I'm going

18     to skip some questions.

19             And we will now look at 1D2863, please.

20             And with your permission, after the break, after we look at the

21     new material that we received yesterday, we would like to put the rest of

22     our questions to the witness.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In this photo, does this green rectangle cover the place of the

25     explosion?

Page 9509

 1        A.   Yes, yes, it does.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  This place was not filmed or photographed before

 3     cleaning; is that correct?

 4        A.   This photograph, this panoramic shot, was taken after the

 5     cleaning and after the debris was removed from the place of the centre of

 6     the explosion.  When I got into this building, I made this panoramic shot

 7     by taking four separate shots and putting them together.  So in this

 8     panoramic shot, you can see that the material has already been cleaned

 9     and that the damage on the asphalt has already been marked in chalk.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Before cleaning, there is no photograph or recording,

11     is that correct, only after cleaning; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, after cleaning.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             I believe that this has already been admitted, so it's not

15     necessary to tender it.

16             Can we now look at P1450 from 6:47 to 7:02, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think this compilation, as it is shown now,

18     has never been admitted, and I don't think that this is what the witness

19     has produced.

20             Mr. Gaynor.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, this hasn't been admitted.  The

22     green section, I believe, has been placed there by the Karadzic Defence.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And I see the stamps on the picture.  And this is

24     compiled by the Defence?

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, from pages taken from the photo file relating

Page 9510

 1     to Markale II, as far as I can see.  Mr. Karadzic can surely confirm

 2     that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  As such, it is never admitted.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that means it wasn't.  I

 5     thought that was already admitted.  These are photographs from the photo

 6     documentation.  We placed them one next to the other.  We didn't fit in

 7     the margins of the sidewalk, as the witness managed to do.  But the fact

 8     is that the place of impact is below this green rectangle and that you

 9     cannot see it in any of these photographs.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   And we can see, on the photograph on the left-hand side, that

14     this was taken before cleaning; is that correct?  You can see how much

15     material there is left here?

16        A.   No, no.  It wasn't possible to fit it in.  You can see that all

17     of it was photographed from one apartment, from one angle, so it's not

18     done properly.  You didn't fit it in correctly.  Yesterday's panoramic

19     shot actually showed the actual state of the scene as we found it.

20        Q.   I'm waiting for the translation.

21             Let me ask you this:  On the left photograph, do you consider

22     this scene to be cleaned?

23        A.   No, we didn't clean the scene.  We cleaned only the crater, the

24     place where the explosion of the mortar shell actually exploded.  We did

25     not clean the rest.  It's not part of our job, to clean that.

Page 9511

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  We're not going to

 2     admit this, not to over-burden the case file.

 3             Can we look at the film P14 -- P1450.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Besic, that the stabiliser is being observed by

 7     the UNPROFOR investigators while it is still on the roadway?

 8        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 9        Q.   Do you have an explanation why this stabiliser is found in

10     different places in different investigative material?

11        A.   Well, I do have the explanation as follows:  When we came to the

12     scene, we photographed from two directions, from the direction of

13     Bascarsija and from the direction of Marin Dvor.  In both those

14     photographs, you can see the projectile next to the shop that we

15     mentioned, Vlasic.  How the UN members -- and what they did here, I don't

16     know.  I was a little bit surprised when I saw this footage.  When you

17     compare my photographs and when you compare the photographs of the work

18     and the measurements made by the UNPROFOR members, you will see that that

19     is, more or less, right across from the entrance, where the projectile

20     was placed.  I don't know who actually put it there.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we tender this excerpt of the footage?

23             Can we have 1D2732, please.  That is a still.  We would like to

24     tender that.  1D2732.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

Page 9512

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D905, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now give the stabiliser to

 3     the witness, the one that we have here, while we still have the

 4     photograph of the stabiliser on the monitor.  This is Exhibit P1454.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Go ahead.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you now tell us if you agree that the actual body of the

 8     stabiliser is very eroded and that you can see -- or corroded, and that

 9     you can see this corrosion on the photograph?

10        A.   Yes, you can see some traces of that, but I think that that is

11     not actually so.  When you look at the fins, that would be the only

12     criteria in evaluating the state of the stabiliser.  It could be some

13     soil or something else that appears to be damage to the body, but I think

14     that the actual fins are the only criteria.

15        Q.   Well, if you give me a new stabiliser and some pliers, I can make

16     it look just like this one here.  But tell me, how long did it take for

17     the shell to fly and hit its target?

18        A.   It would be very difficult to get a new stabiliser into this

19     state only with the use of pliers.  That would take a very long time.  I

20     don't know if this is soil, or sand, or something that was on the body of

21     the stabiliser, but I think in order to identify the stabiliser, you

22     would need to look only at the fins, the shape or distribution of the

23     fins, and I wouldn't dare to identify a projectile only on the basis of

24     the residual soil found on the body of it.

25        Q.   If the crater was shallow, as your photographs indicate, then we

Page 9513

 1     would have to assume that the stabiliser did not embed itself below the

 2     surface?

 3        A.   No.  After the contact and the explosion --

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.  These are questions relating to

 5     ballistics.  The witness has repeatedly stated that he has no particular

 6     expertise in ballistics.  These questions can be directed towards an

 7     expert witness.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but the witness volunteered to answer.  I agree

 9     with you, Mr. Gaynor.

10             But in the meantime, shall we put it on the ELMO so that we can

11     take a look.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

13        Q.   While we are waiting:  Witness, sir, you are stating that it

14     could possibly be soil.  We think that this is quite substantial

15     corrosion or erosion which could not have been created on a dead object.

16     Can you please explain to us, what is the difference between these two

17     objects?

18        A.   Well, I really don't see any difference between the two.  We can

19     interpret this --

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Again, objection, Mr. President.

21             These questions are going to the cause of the deformation at the

22     end of the stabiliser.  Of course, the stabiliser, in the nanoseconds

23     before it is shot back, is subjected to massive force.  Now, the exact

24     cause of the markings on the stabiliser is a question for expert

25     evidence, not for this witness, in my submission.

Page 9514

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think you exhausted this question in

 2     relation to this witness.  I think this witness has answered as far as he

 3     can.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  But there is still the

 5     question of whether this is the same stabiliser, the one that you're

 6     holding in your hand, and the one that was filmed by the French

 7     investigators.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Is that, in your opinion, the same stabiliser?

10        A.   Yes, it's the identical one.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have 1D2864 now, please.

13             You can keep the stabiliser, because compared to the one on the

14     photograph, there are significant differences on it.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Before we go any further, I'd like to clarify for

16     the record that the yellow lines we see on this exhibit have been placed

17     there by the Karadzic Defence.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I take it to be the case.

19             Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Can you please say if you recognise the place of the initial fuse

22     and the two holes which are essentially on the same line as the main

23     large hole?

24        A.   Yes.  If we compare the left and the right photographs, they are

25     identical, and the middle one was probably photographs -- photographed at

Page 9515

 1     a specific angle and was probably tilted.

 2        Q.   You described to the Chamber what these three holes are, the

 3     three holes on the stabiliser?

 4        A.   I know what the middle one is.  It's the initial cap.  I don't

 5     know what the other two are.  I'm not a ballistics expert, but the

 6     assumption is that it could be -- these are the openings in order to

 7     place the primary charge into the stabiliser.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Your assumption is quite correct.  These are the tool

 9     openings that are used to screw the primary charge into the body of the

10     stabiliser.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Besic, the interpreters couldn't hear your last

13     part -- the last part of your answer.  Could you repeat it, kindly.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the former JNA, where I served

15     in the army, I was the one who was calculating the targets.  This is a

16     specialty that dealt with determining the firing from 120-millimetre and

17     155-millimetre guns, so I am quite familiar with this particular kind of

18     ammunition.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Do you agree that the position of these holes, in relation to the

21     fins, varies?  All of this is from the photo documentation.  The right

22     one is a video still.  The middle one is what you are holding in your

23     hand.

24        A.   And the left one, you can see, is actually not standing on its

25     own, but somebody is supporting it with a stick or something in order to

Page 9516

 1     be able to look at the markings.  So that immediately means that the

 2     angle of the openings is different.  But I agree.

 3        Q.   If we were to say that this is a clock, for example, on the first

 4     photograph the line dissects it immediately after 12.00, between 6.00 and

 5     7.00; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, but you can see that the stabiliser is held in the lower

 7     right-hand corner by an object, so that means that the angle is changed;

 8     is that correct?

 9        Q.   But the constant reference point are the fins.  That is not

10     changed.  Nobody can change it.

11        A.   Yes, the first one and the right one are identical.  The left

12     photograph and the right photograph, the position is identical in

13     relation to the fins.

14        Q.   But the one you have in front of you is not identical?

15        A.   The middle one.

16        Q.   The middle photograph is a photograph of the object you have in

17     front of you.

18        A.   Yes, and it's even more at an angle.  I don't know how that

19     happened.  I am talking about the artefacts that were found on the scene.

20     The left photograph was photographed at the scene, the right photograph

21     was also made at the scene, and you can see, by the position of the

22     holes, that they are identical in relation to the fins.  And the middle

23     photograph was filmed somewhere else.

24        Q.   And the middle photograph is the photograph of the object that

25     you have in front of you?

Page 9517

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Besic, could you repeat your answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The left photograph and the right

 4     photograph are in the same position, and the yellow arrow indicates that

 5     they're in the same position, and they were taken at the scene.  The

 6     middle photograph, I really cannot say how the whole object is tilted in

 7     this particular way.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   The middle photograph is a photograph of the exhibit that we have

10     here in the courtroom, the physical object; is that right?

11        A.   Yes, it is here.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The ELMO is not working.

13             Yes.  Could you hold this --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just make an assumption.

15             JUDGE KWON:  -- so that we can see the holes.  Yes.  What is your

16     assumption, Mr. Besic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume that when the stabiliser

18     came to the premises of the criminal lab, it was taken by the

19     Counter-Sabotage Unit, and it's possible that they did unscrew it, make

20     some kind of rotation.  But I guarantee that this is the actual

21     stabiliser from Markale II.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can we admit these three photographs?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 9518

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D906, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would now desire to have the

 3     break in order for us to be able to prepare to show the material that we

 4     received yesterday.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             We'll have a break and resume at 10 to 12.00 -- 10 to 1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             I would like to ask for everyone's patience so that we can look

12     through the video footage that we received with this witness.

13             Can we play from 12:09 -- actually, 12:06.

14             This video system here does not have the same counter time that

15     is on the actual footage, on the actual machine, so --

16             JUDGE KWON:  What is the 65 ter number for this or exhibit

17     number?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We reported it as 1D2867, 2867.

19     This is the footage that we received yesterday because the witness was

20     kind enough to bring it, and the Prosecution disclosed it yesterday.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this was already admitted as

22     Exhibit 896.  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does that mean that the whole

24     footage was admitted, not its parts; is that correct?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, the whole footage was admitted.  Thank you.

Page 9519

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Besic, can I ask you to tell us where the center of the

 3     explosion here is in relation to the position of the cameraman?

 4        A.   It's to the right side.  The cameraman, that's me, the person

 5     with the camera in a white T-shirt.

 6        Q.   All right.  You are the person in the white T-shirt.  What about

 7     the person who is filming?  They are standing behind the market?

 8        A.   Yes, he's standing between -- from the north, he's standing on

 9     the right-hand side of the market, because on the right side of the

10     market, there is a street that leads to Vase Miskina.  This is from the

11     left-hand side, looking to the right entrance.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So the center of the explosion is below this person

13     that is hidden behind the pole?

14        A.   Yes.  You do not see the center of the explosion because it is

15     hidden by this light pole.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the Usher's assistance

17     now and activate the pen.  Okay, excuse me, this is the video footage.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Besic, can you see on this facade this damage?

20        A.   Yes, this is the facade damaged up to a height of 3 metres, and

21     this indicates precisely the direction from which the projectile came.

22     That fragmented a large -- and caused a lot of damage.

23        Q.   And do you see, on this pole, the damage?

24        A.   You don't see it from this side, because the projectile dropped

25     from the other side.  There is a possibility that there is damage.  It's

Page 9520

 1     possible that the damage could also have been prevented by bodies that

 2     came between the pole and the shrapnel.

 3        Q.   I'm talking about the yellow facade.  Do you see the damage on

 4     the yellow facade and the side of the pole facing the cameraman?

 5        A.   Yes, you can see some damage on the wall.  But if you're thinking

 6     of the yellow facade, it's possible that the shrapnel ricocheted and

 7     caused this damage, but it could also be some kind of old damage.

 8        Q.   From an earlier explosion?

 9        A.   It's possible.

10        Q.   And do we have an investigation of this earlier explosion?

11        A.   Well, I really don't know.  There were many explosions.  It's

12     very difficult to remember something like that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Let's move on.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is this the team -- the UNPROFOR team that conducted the

18     investigation on the scene at the same time as you did?

19        A.   Yes, these are the UNPROFOR members, and we can see people here

20     from the federal MUP also.  We can see the operatives.  I am in the

21     right-hand corner, the person who's photographing the center of impact

22     where the number 1 is.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And who's the person who is cleaning?

24        A.   No one is cleaning.  I cleaned it.  This is me.  I am the one

25     who's cleaning.

Page 9521

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see Lieutenant-Colonel Konings in this

 2     photograph, in this footage -- in this still?

 3        A.   I don't know that.

 4        Q.   Did anybody interfere with your investigation at that time?  Was

 5     there any kind of pressure by the masses, were there any problems?

 6        A.   No, there were no problems.  It wasn't possible to create

 7     problems.  The scene was secured.  Nobody could enter.  You understand?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Let us continue.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Let me just interrupt for a second.

11             No objection to the admission of this video.  This video has not,

12     in fact, been admitted so far.

13             And, secondly, we have no objection to its admission, but in

14     order to make the record clear, Mr. Karadzic should call out the time or

15     the minutes and seconds for each of the frames that we're observing.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

17             So I was wondering whether the exhibit that we admitted as D896

18     was kind of a still from this image, from this video, which were

19     admitted --

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  So when we admitted D896, it's limited to that part

22     which was shown at the time, I take it.  So we need to -- then you don't

23     have any objection to the admission of the whole video?

24             MR. GAYNOR:  No objection, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Then there's no objection.  We admit it as D896.

Page 9522

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  That's right.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And if the Defence would kindly offer the Chamber

 5     and the Prosecution the time slots of each video shown in the courtroom.

 6             Having said that, let's move on.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             But, you see, it's easier to use this clock on the camera,

 9     because the software we are using to display this is completely different

10     to the software that we have.

11             JUDGE KWON:  That's fine, but we have to note those numbers into

12     the transcript so that we can follow at a later stage.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Besic, that this investigating team of the

15     UNPROFOR was shown this stabiliser on the road next to the tracks?

16        A.   Yes.  It's clearly evident here, and it's accurate.

17        Q.   Is it the one-and-only stabiliser in this incident?

18        A.   Yes, only one.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can move on.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We were at 12 minutes, 45 seconds at the time.

21             Let's move on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid this is 12:55 on the

23     clock.  I don't know what it is on the software.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is this the same stabiliser marked by your investigating team

Page 9523

 1     with number 12 and also marked with "12" in the sketch?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             We can play back the movie.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9524

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             JUDGE KWON:  So where we broadcast the image, we'll not broadcast

11     that.

12             Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 65 ter 09899,

15     page 3, which is the sketch, and then the key to the sketch.

16             Next page in English, please.  Next page.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   If you look at this, we see number 12.  There is no number 13.

19     In these other two places, in the middle of the tracks and in the road

20     where you recorded the stabiliser, can you mark these two spots on the

21     sketch?

22        A.   [Marks]

23        Q.   Was that number 13?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Then put "13" there.

Page 9525

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   When the Frenchmen were filming, where was it; in the middle of

 3     the road?

 4        A.   The identical spot.

 5        Q.   I don't think so.  What you were photographing was closer to the

 6     tracks, the railroad.  We can play it again, if you wish.

 7        A.   I think it's approximately the same place, perhaps a metre or two

 8     away.  I can mark it like this, if you wish [marks].

 9        Q.   Then put it as "12A," because the previous one was "12."

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   In different witness statements, there are discrepancies between

12     15 and 40 metres.  Don't you think there are too many "if"s and "but"s

13     about this crime scene?

14        A.   You know that it could be a difference between 25 metres and 40,

15     because there is a width of the market, and then the width of the

16     pavement, then the road.  You can see exactly how far it is from

17     number 12 to number 1.

18        Q.   Put your signature there, please, and the date.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Besic, I thank you, and I hope

21     you'll have no hard feelings, because I'm only after the truth, and

22     nothing else.

23             JUDGE KWON:  This last marked sketch will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D907, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Before you, Mr. Gaynor, Judge Baird will ask a

Page 9526

 1     question of the witness.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Witness, we shall like some clarification on an

 4     answer you gave when you were dealing with Markale I earlier today.

 5             Now, Dr. Karadzic asked you:

 6             "Would the shell have been activated on contact with a stall

 7     roofing?"

 8             And you answered to the effect:

 9             "Since it is plastic, I am sure -- I am sure that it would

10     have -- I think that it would have.  But it did not touch any roofing.

11     It just landed like that.  It could have touched this iron roof, but it

12     did not land there.  It landed where it landed."

13             Now, would the shell have been activated on contact with the

14     stall roofing?  Can you help us with it?

15        A.   Well, if it hit only the plastic roof, I doubt it.  But if it hit

16     the iron part of the roofing, yes, it would activate, certainly.

17     However, there was no contact, and the point of contact, the point of

18     impact is on the tarmac between the stalls.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

23        Q.   Mr. Besic, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the

24     sniping of Dzenana Sokolovic.

25             Earlier on today, Mr. Karadzic drew your attention to a

Page 9527

 1     discrepancy in the official report, as he described it, by the

 2     Investigation Commission.  Mr. Karadzic said that that report says that

 3     the entry wound is on the right side of the body of Dzenana Sokolovic and

 4     the exit wound is on the left side, and in the medical file, it's quite

 5     the reverse.  Your answer was:

 6             "Yes, somebody was confused by this.  I believe that my colleague

 7     did not describe it accurately and that it was at that time very

 8     difficult."

 9             Later on, Dr. Karadzic asked you:

10             "So you think it's your colleague who was confused about the

11     different sides of the body or the doctors?"

12             And your answer was:

13             "Well, to be honest, I would think that it was probably my

14     colleague, rather than the doctor, who made the mistake."

15             Do you recall that exchange of questions and answers?

16        A.   Yes, I remember most of it.  There is a discrepancy between the

17     findings of a pathologist in the clinical centre, the pathologist

18     Dobraca, and the forensic pathologist who received the body of the body

19     and examined it.  Dobraca noted that the entry wound was around the eye

20     and the entry -- and the exit close to the right ear, whereas the medics

21     who received him at Kosevo said --

22        Q.   Yes.  Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Besic.  You remember that the

23     examining physician was Sefik Beslic?

24        A.   I don't know.  I did not see him.

25        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Besic, in the documentation shown to you by

Page 9528

 1     Mr. Karadzic, it states that the examining physician was Sefik Beslic.

 2             And I'd now like to call up P472, and if we could go to page 2 in

 3     the English and page 3 in the B/C/S.

 4             The document that is coming up is the witness statement of

 5     Sefik Beslic, which is dated 30th January 2007, which has been admitted

 6     pursuant to Rule 92 bis.  I can read the relevant paragraphs, if

 7     Your Honour wishes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We can follow our own computer.  The Usher's

 9     computer has been frozen for some unidentifiable reasons, so let's

10     continue.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Besic, I'm going to read to you two short paragraphs from a

13     statement made by Dr. Beslic on the 30th of January, 2007, which now

14     appears --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we have it now.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  It now appears.

17        Q.   Now, if you look at the paragraphs in front of you, and if you

18     could focus, really, on paragraphs 4 and 5.  And tell us when you've had

19     a chance to read those to yourself.

20        A.   Yes, I've read this.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Are you now able to comment on whether you believe

22     your colleague or the doctor was the person who made the error at the

23     time of the incident?

24        A.   I believe my colleague could have made that statement.  But we

25     note that the statement of Pathologist Ilijas Dobraca is not consistent

Page 9529

 1     with the finding of this physician.

 2        Q.   Perhaps, Mr. Besic, if we can just bring up P459, page 3 in the

 3     English.

 4             Page 10 in the B/C/S, please.  Sorry, it's the fifth page in the

 5     English.

 6             This is a record of the examination of Dzenana Sokolovic, and the

 7     record states that the entry point of the wound -- sorry, it should be 8

 8     in the English, please.  The previous page, please.

 9             The conclusion of the examining physician was that the entry

10     point of the wound was 0.5 centimetres' wide to the paramedian left

11     bleeding, and the exit point of the wound, 3 by 2 centimetres, to the

12     paramedian right and bleeding.

13             Now, in the statement of Dr. Beslic, which we've just inspected,

14     he says that:

15             "I can now state that without doubt, the bullet which wounded

16     Dzenana Sokolovic entered the right side of her abdomen and exited on the

17     left side of her abdomen."

18        A.   Yes, these two documents coincide.  After all, this is a

19     specialised doctor, a surgeon.  And having seen these two documents, he

20     probably confirmed the finding that the entry is on the left side and

21     exit on the right side.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just ask Mr. Gaynor to say

23     when this new finding was made, because the entry wound in this finding

24     is smaller than the exit wound.  When was this statement made, and to

25     whom, this new statement?

Page 9530

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That's the 92 bis statement admitted already in this

 2     case?

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, it's been admitted as P472 in this case.  I can

 4     move on, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Can you tell us when that statement --

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, certainly.  It was the 30th of January, 2007.

 7     And the examination of Dzenana Sokolovic, according to the statement,

 8     took place on the 30th of January, 2007.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We can move on, Mr. Gaynor.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Now, the second --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add why the Defence is

13     opposed to 92 bis?  This is a very important witness, and we are opposed

14     to 92 bis.

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's admitted.  There may be further ways to bring

16     that issue before the Chamber on your part.  It's for the Defence case.

17             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   The second subject, Mr. Besic, which I'm going to ask you about

20     is the Markale I incident site.

21             Now, we heard questions by Mr. Karadzic today, and he showed you

22     footage and stills of footage of an artificial leg at the Markale I

23     incident site.  And he said today, at page 28:

24             "This was broadcast on Muslim television.  We see the artificial

25     leg here that was left at this place."

Page 9531

 1             Mr. Karadzic has previously asserted, for the Court's

 2     information, at page 2322 that the artificial leg was planted at the

 3     incident location following the explosion.

 4             Now, I'd like to call up a video, please.  This is 65 ter 40109,

 5     and I'm going to play several clips from this.  The first clip is from

 6     03:45 to 03:49.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MR. GAYNOR:

 9        Q.   You see the artificial leg in that clip, Mr. Besic?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  The second clip is from 8 minutes to 8 minutes and

12     10 seconds.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   You see the artificial leg again in that clip?

16        A.   Yes, you can see the prosthesis.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we now play 10 minutes and 20 seconds to 10

18     minutes and 30 -- 10 minutes and 29 seconds.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. GAYNOR:

21        Q.   I think you can see it again there, Mr. Besic.  Is that right?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  For the final clip, I'd like you to listen very

24     carefully to the voices that you can hear.

25             Could we play from 24 minutes and 40 seconds to 25 minutes and 10

Page 9532

 1     seconds.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. GAYNOR:

 4        Q.   Were you able to hear the voices in that clip?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, there's no need to give a precise transcript of what they

 7     were saying, but what -- to what effect were the words that you heard?

 8        A.   Well, people were very bitter over the -- over what happened.

 9        Q.   We did not receive an interpretation of the words on the video.

10     Could you tell us what the people were saying?

11        A.   This is spoken in revolt by the people who happened to be there

12     on the scene, insulting words.  You see that one of these people threw

13     the prosthesis into the air and said, Take this to Karadzic.  And I

14     really wouldn't like to repeat the rest.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence kindly asks the Chamber

16     to receive the transcript of this, because staging/orchestration is

17     referred to.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber the man said, Take

18     this to Karadzic to see how we orchestrate things?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  It's -- the context is

20     completely different.  He said, Take this to Karadzic, because they seem

21     to think we are orchestrating things.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  We can replay it and ask the interpreters to give

23     the translation.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  We'll replay that clip.  It is from 24 minutes and

Page 9533

 1     40 seconds to 25 minutes and 10 seconds.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "At 12.30 in the broader area

 4     around Markale Market, it killed a lot of our fellow citizens and wounded

 5     many.  We repeat again that the Clinical Centre of Kosevo is still

 6     receiving the dead and the wounded, so that the Clinical Centre still

 7     does not have figures about the wounded and dead.

 8             "Fuck Karadzic.  They say that we are staging things, we staging

 9     things.  Fuck his mother."

10             MR. GAYNOR:

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Besic, on the basis of your observations of the incident

12     location on the day of the incident, and on the basis of your viewing of

13     this video, can you tell the Court whether you received any information

14     to suggest that the artificial limb was placed at the site following the

15     explosion?

16        A.   There were all sorts of speculations and stories, but I think

17     this belongs to a man.  And I'm sorry that our colleagues at the mortuary

18     did not fit the prosthesis back to the body and photographed it.  In view

19     of the circumstances and all that happened, we were not able to do

20     everything, but it's a fact that this artificial limb was not placed

21     subsequently.  It belonged to a person who was actually injured.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  That ends the redirect examination.

23             I'd like to tender those four clips that were played.

24             JUDGE KWON:  In separate pieces?

25             MR. GAYNOR:  We can -- yes, as separate exhibit numbers, yes.

Page 9534

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  The Registry will assign numbers in due course,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 6             No further questions, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Besic.  The

 8     Chamber would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

 9     Now you are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Would you wait a minute until we draw the curtain so

12     that you can leave.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And at the same time, we'll bring in the next

15     witness.

16             Now I think you can leave.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goodbye to everyone.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             MR. GAYNOR:  There's one housekeeping matter, Mr. President, that

20     will take about 30 seconds, if I can --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, after we open the curtain.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             I would just like to ask if we could have a brief pause, no more

Page 9535

 1     than five minutes at maximum, for the purpose of logistics of switching

 2     computers before the next witness comes in.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  All right.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll just raise that one point I was going to raise,

 5     Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  On the 5th of November, 2010, at the end of the

 8     redirect examination of Emir Turkusic, Your Honours asked for information

 9     regarding a video-clip which we played during the redirect examination.

10     Mr. Karadzic, in fact, asked for it, and Your Honours asked me to provide

11     it.

12             The video is P1933.  The location of the clip was the Lion

13     Cemetery in Sarajevo.  The date of the recording was the 11th of June,

14     1992.  The journalist was Jeremy Bowen.  The television company is the

15     BBC.  And by way of supplementary information, the incident is described

16     in paragraph 7 of Mr. Bowen's statement -- amalgamated statement, which

17     will be tendered in due course.  That's 65 ter 22660.

18             Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             While Ms. Edgerton sets her computer on, can we deal with

21     administrative matters in the meantime?  You can do that, you can start

22     right now.

23             We are seized of the 65 ter motion -- no, the motion to amend the

24     65 ter witness list, to which the Defence does not oppose, so that will

25     be granted.  But in that response, I remember the Defence asked for the

Page 9536

 1     list of all the remaining witnesses in the order of calling, but I don't

 2     think there has been any practice to be given a list of all witnesses in

 3     the calling -- in the order of the calling.  Our practice is to receive

 4     the order of witnesses bimonthly.  Does it not suffice, Mr. Robinson?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, actually, Mr. President, from time to time

 6     the Prosecution has responded to disclosure motions.  They indicate that

 7     this witness is the 240th witness in their list, and so they have that

 8     information.  We wouldn't hold it to them -- wouldn't hold them to it,

 9     but it would be very helpful to us, because we have to start reviewing

10     prior testimonies and statements of witnesses well in advance.  And from

11     the municipality's case, for example, we have no idea if we're going to

12     hear witnesses from Sanski Most in 2011 or 2012, and we just -- it would

13     be a lot easier if we had some -- at least a tentative idea of which

14     order in which the witnesses would be coming.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I thought your concern was that the Defence does not

16     want to waste time preparing the -- preparing for the Prosecution

17     witness, who the Prosecution then goes on to drop from their list.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, we already know which ones are active on the

19     list right now.  And it would be helpful to have, actually, a

20     consolidated list, because they've been dropping people from time to time

21     and it's been difficult to keep track of that.  So that was one

22     motivation.  But it would also be useful, if they are going to give a

23     list, that it be in some kind of order of which they're being called.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But we are not seized of that motion, as such.  But

25     speaking for myself, bimonthly witness orders may be sufficient at this

Page 9537

 1     time.  And for the further purpose, you can contact the Prosecution, and

 2     the Prosecution will co-operate, without any doubt.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay, thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Do you need to pause for five minutes or three minutes?  Shall

 6     we -- yes, we'll break for five minutes.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at quarter to 2:00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 1.40 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             THE ACCUSED:  May I -- before -- before we start, may I introduce

13     Aleksandar Stefanovic, replacing Mr. Sladojevic, who is not completely in

14     good health.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Mr. Stefanovic.

16             Yes, Ms. Edgerton -- before that, good afternoon, Mr. Djozo.

17             If you could stand and take the solemn declaration.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  NEDZIB DJOZO

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

23             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours, and thank you for the

25     indulgence earlier of five minutes.

Page 9538

 1                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, could you state your full name for the record,

 3     please?

 4        A.   My name is Nedzib Djozo.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djozo.  Now, do you recall, Mr. Djozo, giving two

 6     statements in the past to representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor

 7     for this Tribunal, one in November 1995 and the second one in April 2005?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   And do you also recall that after this, you testified before this

10     Tribunal on two previous occasions, first in the trial of

11     Dragomir Milosevic in 2007 and the second time during the trial of

12     Momcilo Perisic in 2009?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14        Q.   Now, on Tuesday, 7 December, in preparation for your testimony

15     here today, did you sign a further statement consolidating and clarifying

16     the evidence you've presented over the course of the last years?

17        A.   I did sign that statement, yes.

18        Q.   And did this statement also contain, reference and discuss a

19     number of documents and photographs?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Before signing that statement, was it read back to you in a

22     language you understood?

23        A.   Yes, it was.

24        Q.   Now, if you were asked the same questions today which gave rise

25     to the evidence contained in that statement you signed on 7 December,

Page 9539

 1     would you give the same answers?

 2        A.   Yes, I would give the same answers.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 4             In that case, Your Honours, could I ask that Mr. Djozo's

 5     amalgamated statement of 7 December 2010, 65 ter 90206, be marked as the

 6     next Prosecution exhibit?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1978, Your Honours.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

10             I'll now read a summary of the written evidence of Mr. Djozo.

11             During the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Nedzib Djozo served

12     as a police officer for the Sarajevo Police Department in the Old Town,

13     or Stari Grad, police Station.  In his capacity as police investigator,

14     he investigated many shelling and sniping cases.

15             Mr. Djozo conducted a number of on-site investigations concerning

16     the wounding and killing of civilians in Sedrenik, a residential area

17     under the responsibility of his police station.  In these investigations,

18     he found that the fire was coming from Bosnian Serb-held territory, in

19     particular the sniping location of Spicasta Stijena, which is a hill

20     overlooking the Sedrenik neighbourhood.

21             In the months immediately before the shelling of the Markale

22     Marketplace on 28 August 1995, Mr. Djozo investigated several incidents

23     of mortar impacts in the immediate vicinity.  His investigations on all

24     these incidents showed that all shells were fired from Bosnian Serb-held

25     territories.  On the day of the Markale Market incident, he attended on

Page 9540

 1     site with the injured and killed.

 2             Mr. Djozo was a member of the team that investigated the shelling

 3     of the Bascarsija flea market on 22 December 1994.  He was at the scene,

 4     and his task was to assist the investigative judge, who was leading the

 5     investigation, with locating traces from the explosion.

 6             During the course of his investigations, Mr. Djozo encountered

 7     other explosive devices that were used against or fired on Sarajevo.  He

 8     investigated a modified air-bomb that fell in the canyon of the

 9     Moscenice River without exploding.  He found that was an air-bomb with

10     four rocket motors attached to it, and he recalls that 90 kilos of

11     explosive was removed from the bomb.  Based on his knowledge that the

12     Bosnian Army did not have such devices, he came to the conclusion that

13     the bomb was fired from Bosnian Serb-held territory.  Mr. Djozo also saw

14     gas containers filled with explosives which were rolled down into the

15     city from Bosnian Serb-held territories on the slopes of Mount Trebevic

16     beneath Osmice.

17             That's the summary of the written evidence.  And if I may, I'll

18     move to some questions in relation to parts of that written evidence.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Djozo, in your amalgamated statement that you signed

20     earlier this week, you noted that you were injured in a shelling during

21     the summer of 1993 and that the incident took place in front of your

22     police station.  That's at paragraph 8 of that statement.  Do you

23     remember that?

24        A.   Yes, I do.  I can't recall the exact date.  I know it was summer.

25     I was in my summer uniform with a short-sleeved shirt.  Somewhere between

Page 9541

 1     1100 and 1300 hours, as I was standing outside the Stari Grad Police

 2     Station, all of a sudden the building next-door was hit by a mortar

 3     shell.  My colleague, who was standing outside the station, guarding the

 4     parking-lot, was told by me to run for cover because another shell might

 5     be coming shortly.  As I was uttering those words, the next shell hit the

 6     front of the adjoining building, and the detonation literally threw me

 7     into the police station.  Disoriented completely, I went down into the

 8     basement.  I was followed by several colleagues who were also injured.  I

 9     was injured in my arm and my leg.  A colleague of mine, who was about 20,

10     30 metres down from the station, was more seriously wounded.  He was hit

11     by shrapnel in the legs as he was coming in to work.

12             After this, we were transported to the Kosevo Hospital, where we

13     were given medical assistance.  My injuries were not serious, and I was

14     released home immediately.

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Djozo, if we were to show you a map just to orient

16     everyone, would you be able to indicate where we might find the

17     Stari Grad Police Station on the map?

18        A.   Yes, I could.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we see, then, P00815, page 7.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to zoom in further.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  And it's page 7 that we need.

23             Your indulgence for a moment.  I'm advised this image has only

24     one page.  We'll see, as quickly as we can, what we can do.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If this is of a high quality, we can -- oh, no, it's

Page 9542

 1     not.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  I think I can do one better, Your Honour, if I can

 3     just beg your indulgence for a moment.

 4             The proper number, I'm advised, is 09390C, and it would be page 7

 5     of that 65 ter 09390C.

 6             That's sheet 5.  Could we move over two to sheet 7, please.

 7     Thank you.

 8        Q.   Mr. Djozo, do you see a map cut-out on the screen in front of

 9     you?

10        A.   Yes, I can.

11        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to look at this map cut-out in

12     preparation for your preparation today?

13        A.   I did.

14        Q.   What do you recognise it to be?

15        A.   This is a part of the city of Sarajevo, Stari Grad and part of

16     the center.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18             Could we zoom in a little bit, please, on the two bottom

19     right-hand squares of this map.

20        Q.   Mr. Djozo, then, on this map, are you able to identify the

21     location of the Stari Grad Police Station, where you were at the time of

22     the incident you just described?

23        A.   The Stari Grad Police Station is in 10 --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

25     street.

Page 9543

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately where the letter I is

 2     on the right-hand side of the street.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Could you just repeat the street name, please, Mr. Djozo?

 5        A.   It's in Lugavina Street, number 10 [marks].

 6        Q.   Marking the location of the Stari Grad Police Station with a red

 7     dot or circle.

 8             Now, could you estimate the approximate distance between this

 9     location and the scene of the Markale II shelling incident?

10        A.   Lugavina Street is approximately five metres' wide.  The first

11     shell hit the building facing the Police Administration of Stari Grad,

12     and it came from the direction of Lapisnica.  The second shell hit the

13     building just opposite Stari Grad Police Station, some 3 metres away from

14     the tarmac, from road level, towards the first floor.

15        Q.   How far is the Stari Grad Police Station from the scene of

16     Markale II?

17        A.   Roughly, less than 1 kilometre, more than 500 metres, in

18     Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.  So between 500 and a thousand metres

19     [marks].

20        Q.   And have you marked that second location with a cross -- a red

21     cross just now?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   With respect to the day you were injured, had there been any

24     shelling, shooting, or other military activity in the area, to your

25     recollection?

Page 9544

 1        A.   I don't recall that there was any shooting, any combat.  And that

 2     was the most dangerous thing to us in town.  After complete quiet, there

 3     would come a shell injuring and killing and maiming the citizens of

 4     Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   Do you recall any -- seeing any weapons placements, unit

 6     positions, headquarters, or any other military objects or troops in the

 7     area of where you were injured?

 8        A.   In the area where I was wounded, there is not a single structure

 9     used by the army.  The only structure of that kind is the police station.

10     Nearby, there was a kindergarten that was destroyed, so that, too, was

11     empty.  Most of the buildings are residential.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

13             Could this be the next Prosecution exhibit, please, Your Honours?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall I ask the witness to date and put his

15     signature on this?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I sign this initial anywhere?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  And today is the 9th of December, 2010.  And

19     your initial, please.

20             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             That will be admitted.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1979, Your Honours.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Djozo, in your statement, at paragraphs 16 to 18, you

Page 9545

 1     described the location called Spicasta Stijena and the surrounding area.

 2     You said it was, and I quote.

 3             "... a hill dominant, overlooking the Sedrenik neighbourhood."

 4             And further you said:

 5             "Below Spicasta Stijena, there is a rock, and there is meadow

 6     [Realtime transcript read in error "metal"] under that."

 7             Do you remember saying that?

 8        A.   I don't know what kind of metal --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  It should read "meadow."

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed, "meadow."

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

12             Spicasta Stijena is an elevation overlooking the Sedrenik

13     neighbourhood.  It's built up only with houses.  Private houses were

14     built there, and Spicasta Stijena overlooks these houses.  It's about 50

15     to 100 metres' high.  It's bare rock.  It's practically a cliff, very

16     difficult to climb.  The only route that could take you there was a road

17     that went around Spicasta Stijena on the right-hand side, and that road

18     also led to Barice neighbourhood, which was behind Spicasta Stijena.

19     From Barice neighbourhood, if you took that road further, you would get

20     to Biosko and Crepoljsko settlements.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps I could stop you there and ask you to look

22     at a photograph, if I may.

23             65 ter 09999, page 50.  Pardon me, 15.

24        Q.   Do you see the photo on the screen in front of you, Mr. Djozo?

25        A.   Yes, I see the photo.

Page 9546

 1        Q.   And did you see this photograph in preparation for your testimony

 2     here today?

 3        A.   I did.

 4        Q.   Do you recognise it, then?  Can you tell us what it shows?

 5        A.   It shows Spicasta Stijena and the neighbourhood underneath.

 6        Q.   To the best of your recollection, does this accurately depict the

 7     area as you knew it to be during the war?

 8        A.   Yes, it looked exactly like that during the war.  Maybe not all

 9     the roofs were there.  Some roofs were destroyed, but the rest is the

10     same.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could move on to another photograph, then,

12     65 ter 09999, page 5.

13        Q.   Similarly, Mr. Djozo, have you seen this photo in preparation for

14     your testimony today?

15        A.   Yes, I've seen the photo.

16        Q.   Do you recognise it?  And if so, could you tell us what it

17     represents?

18        A.   Yes.  These houses are parts of Sedrenik, which lies to the right

19     of Spicasta Stijena.  Here we see two elevations and the road that goes

20     around and to Spicasta Stijena.  We see there is no forest.  It was cut

21     down during the war.  This area was known as "Seven Forests," but during

22     the war people in the city needed firewood, and they came here and cut

23     down trees and took them to Sarajevo to use as firewood.

24             The bit where some forest is left, perhaps 50 metres or 100

25     metres into the forest, there were lines held by the VRS, and the VRS

Page 9547

 1     allowed the trees to be cut.  They very rarely fired at people cutting

 2     down trees, because they wanted this to become a clearing so they can

 3     have a clear view.

 4             We were trying to explain to the citizens that it's better not to

 5     do that, that they are exposing themselves to danger, but during the war

 6     people had used up all the books, all the furniture, all the parquet, and

 7     the only thing left was to cut down trees.

 8             In this forest, everyone who came to -- came back to Sarajevo

 9     after the Dayton Accords, after reintegration began, was able to know how

10     far the VRS lines reached and where exactly they ran.

11        Q.   Based on what you've just said, I have two questions.

12             First of all, how do you know about the people going to the

13     slopes of these hills to cut the trees?  And, secondly, how do you know

14     the location, as you've explained it, of the VRS lines?

15        A.   Of course I know, because I had to do the same thing myself.  I

16     went to Sedrenik.  I cut down trees and took them to Kosevo, where I

17     lived.  So I do know up to what point the lines of the VRS came.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

19             Could I have these two photographs as Prosecution exhibits,

20     please?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Only those two or --

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Then you will download the other picture?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed.

25             I'm advised it's handled best the other way around.  We'll

Page 9548

 1     up-load these two pictures under a separate 65 ter number, and advise my

 2     colleague as soon as that's done.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, that will be done.

 4             That will be admitted.  Exhibit P1980.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   And we'll move on now, Mr. Djozo, to the part of your written

 7     evidence which is called "Shelling of the area near Markale Market before

 8     the Markale II incident of 28 August 1995."  In that section, you talk

 9     about two separate incidents.  The first -- and the first you refer to as

10     a shelling on Dzenetica Cikme Street across the street from

11     Markale Market, in an incident in which children were injured.  This is

12     at paragraph 25 of your statement.

13             Do you remember that evidence?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Now, although you marked a map during your Perisic testimony,

16     setting out the location of those impacts in that incident - and that's

17     65 ter 13184 - I'd like to use this opportunity so that you can identify

18     those locations for the Trial Chamber perhaps a little bit more clearly.

19             And what I'd actually like on the screen, please, is 65 ter

20     23001.

21             It's released now.  Could you give it another try, please.  Thank

22     you.

23             Do you see the image on the screen in front of you, Mr. Djozo?

24        A.   Yes, I can see it.

25        Q.   Do you recognise it?

Page 9549

 1        A.   I do.  I drew this from memory in 2009.

 2        Q.   So the date and signature on the bottom, then, is that something

 3     you placed there as well?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   Does this drawing that you've made relate to the shelling on

 6     Dzenetica Cikme Street?

 7        A.   Dzenetica Cikme Street is here in this area below, below the

 8     markings where the shell -- shells landed.  Above these buildings is

 9     Nikola Tesla Street.  That's how it was called then.  Now it is called

10     Petrarkina Street.

11        Q.   Can I just stop you for a moment.  And you indicated, with a hand

12     gesture, Dzenetica Cikme Street.  Would you like to write the name of the

13     street on this diagram?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until the Usher assists you,

15     Mr. Djozo.  Yes.

16             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Indicating in red, then, the name of

18     Dzenetica Cikme Street, or designating Dzenetica Cikme Street, and also

19     Petrarkina Street, if I'm not mistaken.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Djozo, between Petrarkina Street and Dzenetica Cikme

23     Street, there are three small star shapes.  What do those represent?

24        A.   Between Dzenetica Cikme Street and Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street,

25     there's the Markale Market.  This marking indicates the place where the

Page 9550

 1     shell landed, killing many Sarajevans on the market [marks].

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Indicating that with a red circle over one of the

 3     asterisk symbols.

 4        Q.   Now, above that, Mr. Djozo, there are three other star-shaped

 5     symbols.  What do those represent?

 6        A.   The three little asterisks represent the shell explosions that

 7     fell into -- on the Dzenetica Cikme Street that day when the shell

 8     dropped.  We were informed that on the street of Dzenetica Cikme, there

 9     was a shelling, at which time some small children were wounded and

10     killed.  I wasn't on duty at the station that day.  My colleague was on

11     duty.

12        Q.   And then at the bottom left hand of this drawing, there's another

13     small star-shaped symbol above the words "Markale Trznica."  What does

14     that represent?

15        A.   That represents the explosion of the shell in front of the

16     Markale II market, an occasion when many inhabitants of Sarajevo were

17     killed as well, and the dates on which this happened are written here.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

19             Could this, please, be the next Prosecution exhibit,

20     Your Honours?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I don't think we need to -- the witness needs

22     to sign it again.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I wouldn't think so.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1981, Your Honours.

Page 9551

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  And -- thank you.

 2             Just for the last exhibit for today, please, could we go back to

 3     P1979, which was the marked map.

 4        Q.   And while we wait for that:  Mr. Djozo, I wonder if you could,

 5     looking at this sketch, help us all out by orienting everyone and

 6     relating that sketch that you've just referred to to the map you marked

 7     earlier.

 8             Perhaps he could be assisted and mark this map now with another

 9     colour.

10             Could you perhaps circle the area that you represented in the

11     drawing that we've just been discussing?

12        A.   I will underline the street Dzenetica Cikme and Petrarkina

13     [marks].  I'm going to indicate with a line where the

14     Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street is [marks].  Between those two streets,

15     Baseskije and Dzenetica Cikme, is where the Markale Market is located.

16        Q.   And that's the area that you sketched out in the drawing that was

17     just admitted as P1981; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  And that's marked in green on this map.

20             If we could have that as the next Prosecution exhibit, please,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1982, Your Honours.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   And in terms of relative distances, can you estimate - and I'm

Page 9552

 1     only asking for an estimation based on your personal experience on the

 2     scene - the distance between the incident on Dzenetica Cikme Street and

 3     the Markale II incident in metres?

 4        A.   It's approximately 50 metres.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6             Your Honours, I note the time, and the examination-in-chief would

 7     probably continue for another half hour, I think.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow morning --

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  -- at 9.00, when we resume.

11             Before we adjourn:  Mr. Tieger, when I told Mr. Robinson to

12     co-operate with you as regards the remaining witnesses and their order, I

13     also meant to encourage you to tell us, as well as the Defence, as early

14     as possible if there are any witnesses still on the list whom you are not

15     likely to call, without having to bind yourself thereby.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Understood.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise for today, and we'll resume at 9.00

18     tomorrow.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of

22                           December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.