Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9751

 1                           Tuesday, 14 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 8             If I could just take a few minutes on two matters before the

 9     witness testifies, one relating to our motion for binding order against

10     the United States and the other relating to this witness's testimony.

11             With respect to our motion for a binding order against the

12     United States, Dr. Karadzic notes, with sadness and regret, the passing

13     of Richard Holbrooke yesterday, and this will affect our request for a

14     binding order, because one of the items related to testimony that we

15     wanted to use in the hope that we would bring him as a witness in our

16     trial.  And I was wondering if we could have leave to reply to the letter

17     of the United States before the Trial Chamber issues any scheduling order

18     so that we could clarify our request for binding order.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

20             In fact, I was about to ask you whether the Defence is minded to

21     withdraw some part of its motion, as indicated by the United States.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think we would be withdrawing one of the

23     requests and perhaps modifying one of the other requests.  And it would

24     be helpful if we could clarify that in writing, both to the Chamber and

25     to the United States.

Page 9752

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We can discuss it in public session?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And when do you think you can file it?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Today.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So if you could do so, yes, leave is granted.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 7             Turning to the testimony of Mr. Bell:  When we interviewed him on

 8     Sunday, we learned for the first time that he had given testimony under

 9     oath in a case in Canada relating to the hostage-taking, and that's the

10     subject of Count 11 of this indictment.  The Prosecution doesn't have

11     that transcript, and neither do we, and so it's something that we'll have

12     to obtain in the future.  I just wanted to put that on the record so that

13     in the event that something in that transcript causes us want to recall

14     him, we would make a motion at that time.  I tend to think it's unlikely

15     in his particular case, but it's a recurring problem that we expect will

16     come up many times with witnesses who testified in Bosnia and some maybe

17     in Serbia and Croatia concerning the municipality's portion of the case.

18     And we have a pending motion to order -- or to obtain witness testimonies

19     from national jurisdictions, and we would just make note this problem has

20     arisen in a concrete way with respect to Mr. Bell, and we would hope that

21     the Chamber could assist us in obtaining prior testimonies before

22     witnesses testify.

23             Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

25             There's one further matter I wanted to raise which was related to

Page 9753

 1     the submission from the parties, the Prosecution and Defence, as regards

 2     the judicial notice of authenticity of intercepts.  I told the

 3     Prosecution to file its submission by the end of this year, but actually

 4     what I meant is by the end of the winter recess.  And the Defence will

 5     have a week from the receipt of the Prosecution's submission.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour, but we are actually

 7     aiming to file earlier than that, before the Christmas break, actually.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  That's great.  And if the Defence can file it

 9     earlier, that would be welcome as well.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  On another topic, Mr. Robinson, it just occurs

11     to me that if it's possible, where the Defence has had an opportunity to

12     see a witness or potential witness and have an interview with him, and

13     notes have been taken of such an interview, it would be, I think, very

14     useful for all parties if those notes could be transcribed and sent to

15     the witness as soon as practicable after the interview that he or she has

16     had with the Defence to agree the content of them.  I think we would

17     resolve issues which might otherwise arise by doing that.  There's

18     obviously no obligation on the Defence to do that, but it just seems to

19     me to be a sensible course and is likely to shorten a witness's

20     appearance in court.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Judge Morrison.

22             After the experience with Mr. Konings, we were seriously

23     considering doing that, and I think we will do that in the future.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let's bring in the witness.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 9754

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Bell.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, sir.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take the solemn declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 5     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  MARTIN BELL

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bell.

 8             If you could make yourself comfortable.

 9             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Bell.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Could you just please give us your full name?

15        A.   My full name is Martin Bell.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Bell, you worked as a foreign affairs correspondent for

17     the BBC for 30 years; isn't that correct?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   In fact, a foreign affairs war correspondent?

20        A.   For much of that time, yes.

21        Q.   Now, during that time, during those 30 years, and since, I

22     understand you've reported from about 100 countries and 15 war zones; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   The prices of inflation, the number of war zones has gone up to

25     18 now.

Page 9755

 1        Q.   And among the wars and conflict situations you've covered around

 2     the world, that list includes the Nigerian civil war, the Middle East

 3     wars, the Vietnam war, the wars in Angola, El Salvador, Nicaragua, the

 4     first Gulf War in 1991, and the conflict in Croatia that same year;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   That is correct.

 7        Q.   And from Croatia, in 1991, you moved to covering the war in

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you reported on events there from, as I

 9     understand it, the referendum in February 1992, right through until the

10     implementation of the Dayton Accord.

11        A.   That is true.  There were periods when I was out of action.  I

12     was briefly wounded, and that stopped me going back for about four

13     months.  But otherwise, much of those three and a half years, yes.

14        Q.   And we'll come back to that in a bit more detail very shortly,

15     but now I'd like to ask you whether you recall, in February 1996, giving

16     a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor regarding your observations

17     and experiences during the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18        A.   Yes, I do recall doing that.

19        Q.   And following that, you also, did you not, testify here in this

20     Tribunal in 2007 and in 2009 as a witness during the trials of

21     Generals Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.

23        Q.   And, finally, do you recall in March 2010 signing a further

24     statement for the Office of the Prosecutor consolidating elements of that

25     previously-recorded evidence we've just been referring to?

Page 9756

 1        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 2        Q.   Now, that statement recorded your comments on a number of

 3     video-clips, documents, and a map, did it not?

 4        A.   Yes, it did.

 5        Q.   And did it also refer to passages from a book you wrote on your

 6     experiences reporting from Bosnia called "Confessions of a War Zone

 7     Thug"?

 8        A.   Well, the main title was "In Harm's Way," and the subtitle was

 9     "Confessions of a War Zone Thug," because I was once called one by a

10     rival producer in Sarajevo, but it wasn't, I hope, serious.

11        Q.   And the statement refers to some passages from that book;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14        Q.   Did you watch each of the video-clips referred to in that

15     statement from March 2010?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   And did you recognise a large number of those clips as films of

18     your own reports and broadcasts?

19        A.   Yes, most of them were from my own broadcasts between 1992 and

20     1995.

21        Q.   And in those cases where they were not from your own broadcasts,

22     did you recognise or were you otherwise familiar with the scenes, the

23     situations, and the events that were depicted therein?

24        A.   Yes.  Some of them didn't have any voice-over at all, but I was

25     familiar with the events depicted.

Page 9757

 1        Q.   And now today, if I was to ask you the same questions which gave

 2     rise to the information contained in that March 2010 statement, would

 3     your answers be the same?

 4        A.   Yes, my answers would be exactly the same.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6             Now, Your Honours, 65 ter 22275 is a redacted version of

 7     Mr. Bell's statement of 8 March 2010, and if I may, I'd like that to be

 8     the next Prosecution exhibit, please.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Redacted on what parts?  Could you clarify?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed.

11             Parts that the Prosecution does not intend to rely on:

12     Paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 --

13             JUDGE KWON:  To 17?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1996, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Bell, just to go back to your CV for another very short

20     while --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to offer some brief summary of his 92

22     statement for the public?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I was about to do that, Your Honour.

24             Just to go back to your CV for a very short while, I'd like now

25     to read this summary of the written evidence which is filed.

Page 9758

 1             Mr. Bell, Martin Bell, was a war correspondent with the

 2     British Broadcasting Corporation from 1966 to 1997.  He covered and

 3     reported on events in the former Yugoslavia from the outbreak of

 4     hostilities in Croatia in 1991 through to the signing and implementation

 5     of the Dayton Peace Accords.

 6             On 9 April 1992, Mr. Bell learned that Zvornik had been attacked

 7     by Serb forces.  Trying to reach Zvornik that day, he was caught up in a

 8     flood of approximately 20.000 Muslim refugees fleeing from the attack.

 9     He returned to Sarajevo and, prior to filing a report on this attack, he

10     informed Lord Carrington's personal envoy, Mr. Colm Doyle, who then

11     raised this matter in a meeting with Dr. Karadzic.

12             Mr. Bell was stationed in Sarajevo throughout most of his time in

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina and filed numerous reports on the conditions in

14     the city.  Among other things, he observed shelling and sniping in

15     civilian populated areas and severe deprivation caused by shortages of

16     food, water, gas and electricity.  Of all the conflicts Mr. Bell has

17     reported upon, he states that in Sarajevo, "there was the least

18     distinction between soldiers and civilians when it came to targeting."

19     Mr. Bell himself was wounded in August 1992 by shrapnel from a mortar

20     while reporting near the Marsal Tito Barracks in Bosnian-held territory.

21             Among his many reports, Mr. Bell reported on the use of a

22     modified aircraft bomb in Hrasnica on 7 April 1995 and the attack on the

23     Markale Market on 28 August 1995.  In his view, the staging of the attack

24     on the market would be impossible.

25             Over the course of the war, Mr. Bell conducted interviews with

Page 9759

 1     leaders from all warring factions, including the accused, Dr. Karadzic.

 2     On 25 April 1992, Mr. Bell accompanied Dr. Karadzic on a tour of

 3     positions around Sarajevo.  Overlooking the city from a position near

 4     Trebevic, Dr. Karadzic confirmed that his forces could take the city at,

 5     quote, "any time."  In January 1993, Mr. Bell accompanied the UNHCR envoy

 6     to Pale to protest the lack of humanitarian access to Zepa.  In other

 7     interviews with the accused, the discussion focused on territory, maps

 8     and history.

 9             Mr. Bell and others from the foreign media were cut off from Pale

10     from August 1994 onwards, after the rejection of the

11     Contact Group Peace Plan.

12             That concludes the summary.

13        Q.   And now, Mr. Bell, again to go back to your CV, I have one

14     further question.

15             You indicated in your written evidence and in your previous

16     testimonies that you work as a goodwill ambassador presently for UNICEF.

17     Could you tell us what, as a goodwill ambassador, you do?

18        A.   Yes.  It is an honorary, unpaid job, and I go to the un-quiet

19     corners of the world, countries like Somalia and Yemen, where UNICEF

20     cannot send its real celebrities, and I look at its projects and I

21     return, and I raise awareness of the programmes and I raise money for

22     UNICEF.  And that's what the job is about.

23        Q.   Since leaving the BBC years ago now, have you kept up any

24     connections at all with the former Yugoslavia?

25        A.   Yes.  Bosnia is as dear to me as my own country.  I have been

Page 9760

 1     back at a number of times.  I have shown visitors around.  I was once

 2     there on a -- on a mission for UNICEF, and only earlier this year I was

 3     doing a radio documentary, 30 years after the death of Marsal Tito, about

 4     whether he might have been held, at this distance, responsible for the

 5     wars that followed 10 years after his death.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I indicated we would come back to your coverage of

 7     the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina in a bit more detail, and the

 8     areas you reported from, and your time spent in the theatre, if we can

 9     call it that.  Could you set that out briefly for the Chamber?  Where

10     were you based and where did you report from?

11        A.   Initially, we were based in Ilidza, in Serb-held territory.  Then

12     partly the reason for that was that the Holiday Inn had been damaged in

13     an earlier attack.  When part of it had been repaired, we based ourselves

14     there for quite a while.  During the side war between Muslims and Croats

15     from April 1993 to February 1994, I spent much time in Central Bosnia,

16     mostly based in Vitez or Kiseljak.  Of course, I visited Tuzla and Mostar

17     from time to time.  And when the Dayton Accords were implemented, I was

18     working with the IFOR out of Gornji Vakuf.

19        Q.   You mentioned Ilidza and the Holiday Inn.  Are these locations in

20     the Sarajevo area?

21        A.   Yes, they are both locations in the Sarajevo area.  The

22     Holiday Inn is right in the middle of things, between the old town and

23     the new.  And Ilidza is -- Ilidza is in -- it was then in Serb-held

24     territory at that side of the city.

25        Q.   Based in Sarajevo, then, could you tell us, roughly, what

Page 9761

 1     percentage of your time or what percentage of time you spent reporting

 2     from the city?

 3        A.   From the time I was there, it was -- it was a full-time

 4     preoccupation, venturing -- and when I was in the Holiday Inn and,

 5     indeed, when I was in Vitez, and sometimes when I was in Tuzla, I did all

 6     I could to report from Republika Srpska as often as possible, and I would

 7     go to Pale when I could.  And I had regular contact with the accused,

 8     whom I found most helpful, because I always felt that the key to a

 9     settlement of this dreadful war lay very significantly with the Serbs.

10     In fact, I would add that I was regarded by some of my colleagues in the

11     Sarajevo press corps as somewhat pro-Serb.

12        Q.   Well, let's explore a couple of points that you've just raised,

13     then.

14             You've just indicated that you had -- you did what you could to

15     report from Republika Srpska, you felt that the key to a settlement of

16     this war lay with the Serbs, and you were regarded by some of your

17     colleagues in the press corps as pro-Serb.  Perhaps you can tell us, what

18     was your approach, then, to reporting during your time in Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina?

20        A.   Well, I was not a campaigning reporter.  I was brought up in a

21     tradition of balanced and even-handed reporting, and I needed to find out

22     from the Serbs why they were doing what they were doing.  And I felt from

23     the start and I have said repeatedly and have written that there was no

24     monopoly of suffering in this war and no monopoly of evil.  Dreadful

25     things were done to people, and dreadful things were done by people.  And

Page 9762

 1     from start to finish, I have tried to be as fair-minded as possible.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Just to go back to a further point in your answer,

 3     where you indicated you did what you could to report from

 4     Republika Srpska, could you describe the nature of your access, then, to

 5     the Bosnian Serb side of the confrontation lines?  How was that achieved?

 6        A.   It was achieved by going through roadblocks, and certainly in the

 7     early months of the war, that was still possible.  I remember one day,

 8     even when I was based in Vitez, which is in Central Bosnia, I -- we drove

 9     our armoured Land Rover through the Ilidza roadblocks to Grbavica, and

10     there I was welcomed by one of the -- one of the commanders,

11     Mr. Djokanovic, who had been wounded twice in the war.  He was a

12     journalist, and he showed me their front-lines.  And the point I was

13     making in my report on that day was that Serbs also were targeted by

14     snipers, and Serbs also were victims of the war.  And one of the iconic

15     images that stays had my mind is that of a -- of an uphill road in the

16     line of sniper fire.  From the other side of the city and across the

17     upper floors of the houses from one side to the other were draped sheets

18     and blankets and rugs to help blind the snipers so that people could move

19     more freely.

20        Q.   In order to gain entry to Bosnian Serb-held territory, you

21     indicated you needed to go through roadblocks.  Did you need permission

22     from anyone?  Did you have any letters of permission, for example?

23        A.   At that stage in the war, no.  We later needed letters of

24     permission from the Bosnian Army to travel outside Sarajevo or go

25     anywhere near front-lines in Sarajevo.  But for the early months, and I

Page 9763

 1     would even say the first year or two of the war, we were able to get

 2     by -- get through roadblocks just by showing our United Nations press

 3     passes and sometimes submitting to being searched.

 4        Q.   Now, you've just -- in answer to my question about access to

 5     Bosnian Serb-held territory, your response was:

 6             "We needed letters of permission from the Bosnian Army to travel

 7     outside Sarajevo."

 8             In order to access Bosnian Serb-held territory, did you need

 9     permission from anyone or any organ?

10        A.   Not at that time.  We were, and certainly by 1993, when we

11     reached Pale, we were expected to check in to the Press Centre, which was

12     run by the daughter of the accused, and there we would receive

13     accreditation and ask for facilities, which sometimes we got and

14     sometimes we didn't, but it was quite informal, Ms. Edgerton.  I mean, I

15     could walk up to near the Presidency, and one of the accused's assistants

16     would usually come out and talk to us, and over a cup of coffee we'd

17     learn what was going on.  Access was reasonable.  And from a journalist's

18     point of view, what was remarkable and welcome was that this is perhaps

19     the only war I've been in where we dealt with the main players nearly all

20     the time on the UN side -- and people like the accused were most helpful

21     to us, so was Dr. Koljevic, so was Alija Izetbegovic, so were the HVO,

22     the Croat Defence force in Central Bosnia.  We were not mostly dealing

23     with, if I may say so, spin-doctors and spokesmen and with the like, but

24     with the main players.

25        Q.   At any point in time, did the nature of that access to

Page 9764

 1     Bosnian Serb-held territory change?  Were you cut off?

 2        A.   Yes, it did change.  We were cut off after the rejection of the

 3     Contact Group Peace Plan in August 1994.  We were shown the front-lines.

 4     We were allowed to interview Bosnian Serb soldiers about why they

 5     rejected the peace plan.  And then we took our videotapes back to

 6     Sarajevo, and that was the -- actually, that was the last time I was able

 7     to set foot in Pale, which was -- which was unfortunate for me because it

 8     was harder then, having been cut off, to prevent -- to present an

 9     even-handed account of the closing year and a bit of the war.

10        Q.   In terms of, then, the type of reports that you and perhaps other

11     members of the press corps in Sarajevo were able to prepare after that

12     time, did this closure of access have any effect?

13        A.   Yes, it did.  I mean, there were two elements here.  First of

14     all, my editors in London were becoming bored with the war in Bosnia at

15     the time it got into its third year.  And, secondly, the

16     Bosnian Government forces became much more sensitive to what's known in

17     the military as field security.  They were very sensitive to any video

18     of, shall we say, their mortars firing, their front-line positions,

19     anything that they felt might be of value to an enemy.  But this is quite

20     normal in warfare.

21        Q.   What, then -- you've just said it did have an effect.  What,

22     then, was the effect on news coverage and news reporting coming from the

23     Sarajevo area?

24        A.   I think I lamented in my book that the access was confined and

25     all the journalists were working on an access of about a mile and a half

Page 9765

 1     up and down the main street in Sarajevo.  It was harder and harder to get

 2     access.  I tried to get access to the front-lines near Tuzla and failed,

 3     I couldn't at that time have access to the Bosnian Serbs, and so it was,

 4     from a journalistic point of view, a very frustrating time, especially

 5     because the war - I'm talking now of the summer of 1995 - was as

 6     intensive as it had been in the summer of 1992, but we had less access to

 7     it.

 8        Q.   You indicated that you were, as a result of your access to

 9     Bosnian Serb-held territory, shown the front-lines around Sarajevo, I

10     presume.  Did you have occasion to visit any sniping or heavy weapons

11     positions?

12        A.   Yes, I did, I did.  I visited two batteries of mountain guns in

13     January 1993, and, of course, just to take that -- that mountain road to

14     Pale, we were going past front-line positions with armed Bosnian Serb

15     soldiers, and we were -- we were welcome to stop.  I mean, they would --

16     they would give us interviews.  They were -- they were very friendly.

17        Q.   Were you accompanied by Dr. Karadzic on this or any other visits?

18        A.   I was on -- I was certainly on one visit.  He was -- it was,

19     I think, Easter morning, and he was actually showing us the positions

20     and, I would say, making a -- making a peace statement for public and

21     diplomatic consumption, which was perfectly legitimate.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Perhaps we could have a look at your report of

23     this Easter morning visit, and that's 65 ter 40517E.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We need to play it again.  The

Page 9766

 1     witness seems to have difficulty.

 2             Okay, thank you.  Shall we play it again.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             "Martin Bell:  It was Easter morning by the Serbian Orthodox

 5     calender and the Bosnian Serbs were celebrating more widely than they

 6     used to in the Communist years.  But with a special urgency --"

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Can you stop just a second.  I'm wondering that is

 8     being translated into B/C/S or whether you have a transcript.

 9             Did you hear the translation, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED:  No, but I was following in English.  But --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Judge Lattanzi also didn't receive the French

12     translation.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  The transcripts were delivered.  Perhaps I could

14     just have a moment to speak with my colleague in this regard.

15             We did send the published transcripts around yesterday, so I hope

16     everyone has them.  Because there's a number of transcripts, perhaps we

17     may need to hear from the booth that they've found the transcript for the

18     appropriate 65 ter number.  So maybe I was a little too hasty to begin

19     playing the film.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             Can I get confirmation from the booth?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The 65 ter numbers are not indicated on the

23     transcript.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  If I can have your indulgence for a minute, we'll

25     try and find a solution for this.

Page 9767

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, we're minded to take a short break,

 2     five minutes, to resolve that issue.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could do that, Your Honour, I'll, with my

 4     colleague, work as fast as I can to get this sorted out so that we could

 5     proceed smoothly throughout the morning.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

 7             Sorry for the inconvenience, Mr. Bell.  We need to take a break

 8     for five minutes.

 9                           --- Break taken at 9.40 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 9.50 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, let's continue.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

13             And my apologies, Your Honour, and my apologies to my colleagues.

14     I think we were all almost defeated by technology, and I think we have

15     solved this for the remainder of the day.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  If I could ask my colleague Mr. Reid, again, if we

18     could try 65 ter 40517E from April 1992.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             "Martin Bell:  It was Easter morning by the Serbian orthodox

21     calendar, and the Bosnian Serbs were celebrating more widely than they

22     used to in the Communist years.  But with a special urgency to their

23     prayers for peace for their three weeks in to the bloodshed of civil war.

24     All the communities here have suffered.  The Muslims perhaps most of all.

25     This village near the airport has been attacked by the Serbs and the

Page 9768

 1     Federal Army, its mosque has been blitzed, eight of its people killed,

 2     yet today the leaders of Bosnia's Serbs embarked on a peace offensive

 3     before leaving for Lisbon tomorrow."

 4             "Karadzic:  If we didn't have hope for political solutions, we

 5     would already free Sarajevo.  We would have taken it, because we can take

 6     it."

 7             "Martin Bell:  To make his point, and he did it vividly,

 8     Mr. Karadzic took us on a tour of the Serb's front-line positions

 9     overlapping Sarajevo.  He used an old Serbian greeting, 'May God help

10     you.'  The purpose of this high-visibility exercise was to show that the

11     Serbs were observing the cease-fire here and he said, intended to go on

12     doing so.

13             "Karadzic:  We don't shoot.  We try to just to keep peace and not

14     to -- to control the surrounding of Sarajevo."

15             "Martin Bell:  You could take the city tomorrow, couldn't you?

16             "Karadzic:  Any time."

17             "Martin Bell:  This is the strengths of the Serbs position that

18     Sarajevo lies at their feet.  They say that they are willing to negotiate

19     about anything, but if the Muslims want war, they can have war and the

20     city is indefensible.

21             "Martin Bell, BBC News, above Sarajevo."

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I think the translation of the video is completed

23     now.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I agree.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

Page 9769

 1        Q.   Mr. Bell, just a couple of questions about this clip.

 2             First of all, do you recall where this position was that you had

 3     visited?

 4        A.   Yes.  These were the front-lines above Trebevic.

 5        Q.   And in the initial moments of this film, you showed Dr. Karadzic

 6     making a comment to the effect that they would have freed Sarajevo if

 7     they didn't have hope for political solutions.  Could you tell us where

 8     that was filmed; do you recall?

 9        A.   I think that was when we first met him earlier that morning.  We

10     had obviously been with him a little while, long enough for my cameraman

11     to take a ride in his car, where he gave the -- where he gave the Serbian

12     greeting.  So it was sort of an ad hoc rolling press conference, if you

13     wish, at the time just before the Lisbon Conference, where he was clearly

14     and, I would say, legitimately on a peace offensive.

15        Q.   What do you mean, Mr. Bell, when you describe a peace offensive?

16        A.   It was common for all the leaders, especially the political

17     leaders, to blame others for the fighting and to show that they were

18     willing to search for peace and that they wanted peace.  If you look at

19     it militarily, I would have thought, for the Serbs to have taken

20     Sarajevo, it would have involved heavy casualties and street-fighting.

21     And Sarajevo, even at the end of the war, there was some terrible

22     destruction, but it could have been flattened as, shall we say, Vukovar

23     was in the -- in the Croatian war.  So there was a -- there was always a

24     balance, I think.  And I think that the Bosnian Serbs were, from the

25     start, looking for a solution that would be favourable to them.

Page 9770

 1        Q.   To your mind, did the encirclement of Sarajevo have -- by the

 2     Bosnian Serb forces have any role to play in that regard?

 3        A.   Absolutely.  If they could, in some way, bring the city to its

 4     knees and more or less get the Bosnian Government to capitulate, then

 5     they could have had peace on the best possible terms for them.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 7             Could I ask that this 65 ter number, please, be the next

 8     Prosecution exhibit, 40517E?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You will tender only that portion of the video?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, this being also the portion that's referred

11     to in Mr. Bell's statement.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  But the actual videotape, that started in

13     37 minutes 55 seconds, but when you tender it, you will tender only that

14     part or the entire video?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to tender, Your Honour, the video as

16     played in court.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1997, Your Honours.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, Mr. Bell, you also mentioned visiting two

20     batteries of mountain guns in January 1993, and I'd like us to see your

21     report on that visit.  That is 65 ter 40348H.  And just for the sake of

22     everyone, perhaps we could have an indication from the booth that they've

23     been able to find the transcript before we begin playing.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The French booth has.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 9771

 1             "Martin Bell:  Colonel Jovo Bartula of the Serbian-Bosnian Army

 2     commands the big guns west of the city.  Earlier in the war, he was named

 3     a war criminal by the Bosnian Government, which he resents.  He never

 4     killed anyone, he says, in his whole life.  Now he has it in his power to

 5     flatten Sarajevo from five miles away with his 100-millimetre cannon by

 6     direct or indirect fire.  If it comes to a bombing of the Serbs as some

 7     Americans had suggested, his guns would be as prime a target for them as

 8     the city is for him.

 9             "Are you concerned about the threat of Western intervention?

10             "Colonel:  No, that threat only unifies us.  Military

11     intervention, all their rockets and planes can't destroy us.  The world

12     should understand that we are fighting for the right to

13     self-determination, the right to choose our own state and to live like

14     any other country in Europe."

15             "Martin Bell:  Three days earlier, his men had beaten off an

16     infantry attack.  Now they are responding with cannon to machine-gun

17     fire.  It is an active part of the line, and the UN's role is that of a

18     bystander in someone else's war.  Here on the front-line, the prospects

19     for peace seem faint.  The war is intensifying between Muslims and

20     Serbs."

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Mr. Bell -- your indulgence, please.

23             Mr. Bell, do you have any comment on the line of sight into the

24     city from that weapons position, as it was depicted in this film?

25        A.   Only that I think it shows very clearly how the city was at the

Page 9772

 1     mercy of those heavy weapons, whether or not they would be -- would be

 2     used.  And if they had been used, then Colonel Bartula could actually

 3     have seen the impact of his shells and recalibrated them accordingly.

 4     And he was outraged, as I remember, to be -- have been called a war

 5     criminal, because it was one of the features of this war, Your Honours,

 6     that each side tended to regard the military commanders on the other side

 7     as war criminals merely because of the position that they held.

 8             We had great difficulty persuading him to make this statement,

 9     but I think it showed very clearly the mindset of those soldiers and

10     those officers at that time.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12             Could I ask this clip, 40348H, be marked as the next Prosecution

13     exhibit, please?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit P1998.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Bell, I'm looking at -- in fact, I'm quite sure that each of

17     the many war and conflict areas you've reported from was unique in some

18     way.  And looking back, I'm wondering whether there is or you recall some

19     feature peculiar to the nature of the conflict as it related to Sarajevo.

20        A.   Yes, I would make this point:  First of all, it was the

21     centrality of civilians who would inevitably be caught up in a conflict,

22     fought with some quite modern weapons in a modern industrial city.  And

23     the other point that struck me at the time is this was probably the first

24     occasion where -- in the history of warfare, where the weapons of mass

25     destruction were used at the same time that we had instruments of mass

Page 9773

 1     communication to show the effects of this day by day in the living-rooms

 2     of Europe and far beyond Europe.  So to that extent, we were, I suppose,

 3     participants -- we journalists were inevitably participants as well as

 4     witnesses.

 5        Q.   If I asked you to describe the situation for civilians in

 6     encircled Sarajevo, as you observed it over time, how would you do that,

 7     Mr. Bell?

 8        A.   I would say they were subjected to three and a half years of an

 9     appalling ordeal; not all the time.  The fighting came and went.

10     Sometimes there were supplies and sometimes -- sometimes there were not.

11     And I would also say it was not just a question of being caught in the

12     cross-fire.  There was deliberate targeting also on both sides of the

13     lines.

14        Q.   Mr. Bell, I'd like to turn to an excerpt from a report you did in

15     January 1993 as part of a documentary programme for "Panorama."  But

16     before we play that -- and for my colleagues in the booth, that's

17     65 ter 40348D.  Before we play that, I wonder if you could tell us a bit

18     about this documentary programme for "Panorama" and the -- your

19     objective, as you crafted the programme.

20        A.   "Panorama" is a long-form series of long-form topical

21     mini-documentaries.  It provided me with the possibility of a month of

22     breaking away from the short-form, rushed, rather fragmentary, day by day

23     news coverage, and to spend time with the people, considerable time, to

24     see it from their point of view.  There were two other -- in the back of

25     my mind, I had two other objectives as well.  I wanted to document, as

Page 9774

 1     far as possible, the scale of the killing in the early weeks and months

 2     of the war, which was even then not widely known, so there were many

 3     interviews with victims.  And I also wanted to provide an understanding

 4     of the position of the Serbs.

 5             The section with the mountain guns and Colonel Bartula also came

 6     from that documentary, which included scenes of a massacre of Serbs in a

 7     village near Bratunac on the Christmas -- Orthodox Christmas Day of 1993,

 8     so it was a complex mix of intentions that I had.  But there was so much

 9     going on, and I have a wonderful cameraman, and I think that the result

10     was -- it was truthful.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12             If we could now turn to 65 ter 40348D.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Martin Bell:  The casualties are predominantly among the

15     civilians and here first is a sample of what life is like in a city where

16     even the road signs warn of sniper fire.  Serbian snipers are perhaps

17     100-150 yards away in the Kosovo district, where people live right

18     against the front-line.  There's no safe place, and lying low in such

19     shelters as there are isn't an option either, for the water is cut off,

20     and the only supply is in the basement of a block of flats.  The cellar,

21     itself, is a kind of refuge, but every time they make the journey, which

22     for most of them has to be every day, the water-carriers coming and going

23     are in the line of fire.  This day, the snipers have claimed one casualty

24     already and the word from outside is that they've hit another.  And the

25     snipers are accurate.  Before the war, this used to be a country of

Page 9775

 1     hunting, but today [indiscernible].  The victim, this time is a man shot

 2     in the leg, just turning the corner when the sniper got him.  It happens

 3     in this place every day and usually more than once.  Nothing special but

 4     an everyday hazard for people who have been under fire since April.  Our

 5     interpreter, who is also a doctor, binds up the wound.  Shock is setting

 6     in.  This is Sarajevo today, Sarajevo any day.  He was shot, as one of

 7     his companions put it, 'shot for a bucket of water.'  It changes nothing

 8     for the people of the district.  After two casualties in one day, they

 9     use the back route which is marginally less in the sniper's sights than

10     the front one.  But they still have to fetch their water, and until

11     there's running water and peace, they will have to do it this way.  We

12     pressed our armoured Land Rover into service as an ambulance, a kind of

13     luxury for people who, day in and day out, have neither protection nor

14     means of escape from life on the front-line.  They tell us we'll be shot

15     at on the way out, and in this sector, that's a fairly safe prediction.

16             "The casualty rate varies from day to day, two dead on a quiet

17     day, as many as 20 under a heavier bombardment, many more injured, not

18     only among Muslims who tend to get much of the media attention but Croats

19     and Serbs as well."

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters no longer have the transcript.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  My apologies again, Your Honour.  This was a

22     correction to the transcript which was amended last night.  If I could

23     just have a moment.

24             Mr. Reid is printing now the correction of the transcript, and I

25     wonder if I could ask it be somehow distributed to my colleagues.  And,

Page 9776

 1     again, my apologies to them as well, and thanks for their understanding.

 2             I wonder if I could ask Mr. Usher to deliver a copy to my

 3     colleagues in the French booth.

 4             May we continue?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please, Ms. Edgerton.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             "Martin Bell:  There is an everyday price being paid here for the

 8     delay in finding a negotiated settlement, and, by and large, it's being

 9     paid by the people without guns.  This man was still arrive on arrival at

10     hospital, but only just.  He died of shock.

11             "Most evenings, the fighting intensifies.  Cannon fire here

12     against an office building in what remains of the city centre.  The

13     survivors huddle for safety underground.  There is no safe place in

14     Sarajevo, but the least unsafe is a cave by the river, once a restaurant,

15     now returned to its function of primitive shelter.  Seventy people - all

16     it can hold - have been living here since the siege of the city began."

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Mr. Bell, I have a couple of questions about this report, and

19     first I'd like to refer back to the scene where someone fetching water

20     was wounded by sniper fire.  Was this a situation where someone was, as

21     you've alluded to before, caught in the cross-fire?

22        A.   No.  The man who was -- who was wounded had clearly been

23     targeted.  We could have gone anywhere in the city that day.  We just

24     chose this particular example, and we -- and we stayed there.

25             And I have to confess that after all these years, I still find

Page 9777

 1     that report quite painful to watch.  One effect was that I was

 2     subsequently accused by elements in the British Government of being,

 3     I think it was called, a founder member of the "something must be done"

 4     club; that is, that the images, themselves, called for international

 5     intervention.

 6        Q.   In terms of the situation for civilians in the city, as you

 7     observed it over the course of time, do you find this report of yours to

 8     be an accurate depiction?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm confident that it is accurate and truthful.  There was

10     no fiddling with the soundtracks.  You can see the woman wincing when she

11     hears the sniper fire.  There was -- this was the worst winter of the

12     war, the winter of 1992 to 1993, and I think that report conveys an

13     accurate picture of the suffering inflicted on innocent people.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, could I have this clip, please,

15     40348D, as the next Prosecution exhibit?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P1999.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Mr. Bell, over the course of time during your time in Sarajevo,

19     did you see any manifestations of a psychological effect on the civilian

20     population of these prolonged conditions?

21        A.   This is just anecdotal, Ms. Edgerton, but I've never seen such

22     anxiety etched on everybody's faces.  They lost weight.  I would say some

23     of them looked almost gray with fear.  It is -- we had it easy.  We came

24     in and out.  I would do, at the most, five, six weeks.  They were there

25     all the time, with no means of escape and trapped in what appeared to be

Page 9778

 1     a war -- a war without end.  In fact, the interpreter I used, that

 2     wonderful doctor, I believe her father killed himself at that time.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to turn at this moment to a video you saw

 4     and spoke to during the course of your Dragomir Milosevic testimony,

 5     65 ter 40425A, from 22 November 1994, a very, very brief clip.  But,

 6     again, if I could hear from the booth that they've been able to locate

 7     the transcript.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, thank you.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  We haven't been able to find it yet.  Bear with

10     us for a second.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  40425A.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  We have found it.  Thank you.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "Martin Bell:  Out on the streets, his UN protection force was

16     actually doing some protecting.  A slow-moving armoured personnel carrier

17     sheltering people against sniper fire."

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Mr. Bell, you commented on this image in your written evidence as

20     being one of the iconic images, to your mind, of the war.  Why was that?

21        A.   Because it shows, in a very simple form, the fear of the people,

22     and they feel their only safe way - this is quite near the Holiday Inn -

23     of getting across that bit of open ground is in the cover of the French

24     armoured personnel carrier.  And I will confess that in my commentary

25     about the UN Protection Force actually doing some protecting, there may

Page 9779

 1     have been an element of implied frustration that they hadn't been doing

 2     more sooner.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I ask for this as the next Prosecution

 4     exhibit, please, Your Honours?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P2000.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Bell, I'd actually like to leave Sarajevo for a

 8     moment -- a few moments and take you back to one of the first stories you

 9     filed from Bosnia in April of 1992, and that was on the situation in

10     Zvornik at the end of the first week of April.

11             Do you recall how you actually came to travel to Zvornik at that

12     time?

13        A.   Yes.  We came from Belgrade, where I had interviewed

14     Zeljko Raznatovic, known as Arkan.  And we came to Zvornik, and at that

15     time it was clearly on the verge of war, and I would say that the war

16     there was quite unstoppable.  But I do remember doing a report about

17     Zvornik, a formerly mixed town, being on the edge of war.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we then go to 65 ter 40517B.

19        Q.   And while we wait for everyone to find the transcripts, perhaps I

20     could ask you this, Mr. Bell:  What gave you the impression that you've

21     just spoken about, that Zvornik was clearly on the verge of war and the

22     war was quite unstoppable?

23        A.   Because we learned inside Zvornik, at the time when its Serbs had

24     left, that the police force had split, and I think there's a sequence in

25     the coffee shop where the men are talking of the imminence of war.  These

Page 9780

 1     are Muslim men.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  My colleagues in the booth okay if we go to that

 3     video now, 40517B.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  All right for the B/C/S booth.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  French booth is fine.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "Martin Bell:  There were reports today of fierce fighting in the

 9     ancient town of Mostar in the south of Bosnia between Serbs and Croats.

10     Elsewhere between Serbs and Muslims.  Though Sarajevo was quieter today,

11     it seems that the ethnic and political fabric of the republic is coming

12     apart day by day.  An example, Zvornik on the Serbian border.  It used to

13     be a mixed town of Serbs and Muslims, but in three days 95 per cent of

14     the Serbs have fled.  The police force is split and front-lines are being

15     established just as they were in Croatia nine months ago.  Centuries of

16     peaceful co-existence between Muslims and Serbs in this town have come to

17     an abrupt end.  The war here, says a local leader, can start any day.

18     Bosnians in the old town are angry, frightened, expecting to be attacked.

19     'The worst can happen,' he says, 'anything can happen.'  Others blame

20     outsiders for stirring things up and the failure of their own political

21     leadership.  It's their own town and it's as if the prison walls were

22     closing in on them.  The Serbs on their side of the lines were taking in

23     suspects for questioning by the busload.  The men on guard here were

24     members of the most disciplined of private armies, Commander Arkan's

25     volunteers.  They have just accounted for 41 so-called Muslim extremists,

Page 9781

 1     in an action in Bijeljina nearby.  Mr. Arkan himself is not impressed by

 2     Bosnia's peace marshals.

 3             "Arkan:  The worst thing is that the Communists are back, slowly

 4     coming back in power in Sarajevo.  You could see pictures of Tito, you

 5     could see red flags.  They are calling for Communist parties.  They are

 6     singing Communist songs, and I think that's -- that's wrong, the wrong

 7     thing to go 50 years back."

 8             "Martin Bell:  Zvornik itself was part of Tito's Yugoslavia, but

 9     that was a dream that died, and Bosnia is back today, where it was a

10     month ago, on the very brink of war.

11             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Zvornik, Bosnia."

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Mr. Bell, is that the report you've just been discussing?

14        A.   Yes, Ms. Edgerton, it is.

15        Q.   I have a couple of questions about this film we've just seen.

16     You noted the presence of Arkan's men, and I wonder how you recognise

17     them to be Arkan's men.

18        A.   I knew Arkan's men well from the war in Croatia.  I had been to

19     their headquarters.  I had even done a report on his volunteers being

20     baptised in the great cathedral in Dalj.  I knew Arkan well.  The

21     interview there was conducted in the ice cream parlour that he owned in

22     Belgrade.  They quite often wore balaclavas, as you would have seen in

23     this report, so I had no difficulty in identifying them.

24        Q.   You also spoke of an incident in Bijeljina, and you reported:

25             "They have just accounted for 41 so-called Muslim extremists in

Page 9782

 1     an action in Bijeljina nearby."

 2             Do you recall what information you had about the events in

 3     Bijeljina and how you came to be aware of it?

 4        A.   The report was -- this report was edited in Belgrade.  And when I

 5     was in Belgrade, I found out about the attacks in Bijeljina, which

 6     actually yielded one of the iconic still images of the war which appeared

 7     on the front page of "Time" magazine.  But I have no reason to doubt the

 8     accuracy of that report and those figures.

 9        Q.   What was that still image you've just referred to?

10        A.   It was one of Arkan's men with his foot on the body of one of the

11     Muslims in Bijeljina.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, could I have this as the next

13     Prosecution exhibit, please?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit P2001.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, Your Honours, before we move to another clip,

16     we're about one minute short, by the clock on my computer, from our break

17     time.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   Mr. Bell, following this report, did you have occasion to return

25     to Zvornik?

Page 9783

 1        A.   Yes, I did.  I believe it was the 10th of April, 1992.  I was

 2     trying to do a report on the front-lines around Sarajevo, but I couldn't

 3     get access.  And then I thought these scenes in Zvornik, let's go and see

 4     what -- I wanted to go to Zvornik, itself, because nothing is known of

 5     what had happened there.  So -- yeah, so I went, and I managed to get,

 6     I think, some quite remarkable images on that day.

 7        Q.   What were those images?

 8        A.   They were images, first of all, of the fighting at Zvornik.  They

 9     came from my very brave Serbian cameraman, Dragan Hercegovic [phoen], and

10     from my camerawoman, Katherine Gisler [phoen], who was with me.  We

11     witnessed the flight of Muslim refugees from the area 'round Zvornik in

12     very large numbers.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like now to play that report you've just

14     referred to, which has 65 ter number 40517C.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "Martin Bell:  Serbian irregulars in action in Zvornik, a town

17     that used to be mixed and used to be peaceful.  Today, it wasn't either.

18     These were not men of the Yugoslav Army, but of the most disciplined of

19     the Serbian militias under Commander Arkan.  They were mopping up the

20     last of Muslim resistance.  The Bosnian authorities, mainly Muslim, were

21     driven out of the town.  They put their total dead at at least 300.  That

22     may be an exaggeration, but casualties were certainly heavy.  The Serbs

23     are now doing in Bosnia what they did last year in Croatia, which is on

24     an argument of self-defence to extend their control into the formerly

25     mixed areas.  In fact, they're making Greater Serbia happen.  In a

Page 9784

 1     village two miles south of Zvornik, we came upon the human calamity,

 2     which is the practical result of all this.  Two-thousand Muslims are

 3     stranded and struggled to get out.  They spoke of the fighting they left

 4     behind them, the murder and hostage-taking which went on.

 5             "But everything are happening now.  They have been happening

 6     since two, three days.  It is a terrible [indiscernible] which has been

 7     made and which is being made right now.  You can hear even now some

 8     shells."

 9             "Martin Bell:  We could, and so could the refugees waiting for

10     rescue.  The artillery barrage was creeping towards us in the villages of

11     the Muslim side of Zvornik.

12             "What is happening," she says, "is we are unarmed and they are

13     firing at us.'"

14             "Martin Bell:  He begs the world to help them against the

15     aggression of the Serbs and the federal army.  The cry as we leave is

16     again for help as quickly as possible, and the applause is only because

17     we are the first sign they had in days that anyone out there cares about

18     their plight.  Numbers are difficult to estimate, but in single file on

19     mountain paths and great columns in the wider tracks, it's possible that

20     as many as 20.000 people are on the move, most of them by foot.

21     [Indiscernible] has been walking for two days, they've gone 18 miles and

22     have at least another 20 to go along this trail of tears.  They are

23     heading for the safety of the Muslim area without any help.  No food, no

24     medicine, no transport, but all they were talking about was the actions

25     of Serbs in their town of Zvornik."

Page 9785

 1             "They killed all peoples.  Some peoples from the Serbian forces

 2     have something like a wire put on their neck and they pull."

 3             "Martin Bell:  It is a great and tragic displacement of people,

 4     thousands of them being driven from their homes for no other reason than

 5     the Muslims are weaker and the Serbs are stronger and the ethnic map of

 6     Bosnia is being re-drawn.  The refugees are looking for help, to the

 7     European Community, to the United Nations and the Commissioner for

 8     Refugees.  There's not a sign here, of any of them.

 9             "Martin Bell, BBC News, on the road from Zvornik."

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   Mr. Bell, I have a couple of questions for you about this report.

12             You referred to your very brave cameraman as being the man

13     responsible for the first part of this film.  Do you know where it was

14     shot?

15        A.   Yes.  It was -- it was shot in Zvornik.  That would have been the

16     municipal building.  And that was certainly Arkan saluting the --

17     saluting the flag.

18        Q.   You also mentioned the figure of 300 casualties.  Do you recall

19     what information you received to that effect?

20        A.   This was information that I received from Dragan Hercegovic,

21     because he then went back to Belgrade and he filed his footage from

22     there.  But this was then seen in Belgrade, and Arkan was upset by it and

23     he disputed the figure, and so I then did another report the next day,

24     really to save Dragan from retaliation, making some reservations about

25     the numbers.

Page 9786

 1        Q.   How did you come to know that Arkan was upset and disputed the

 2     figure?

 3        A.   Because Dragan Hercegovic called me that night and told me, and I

 4     said I would do what I could to help.

 5        Q.   When you say you did another report to save Dragan from

 6     retaliation, what kind of retaliation were you speaking of?

 7        A.   I was speaking of intimidation.  They could have beaten him up,

 8     they could have -- they could have killed him.  And so the next day, I

 9     filed a report in which I said the Serbs absolutely deny any massacres of

10     Muslims.

11        Q.   When you said, in this report, that the ethnic map of Bosnia was

12     being re-drawn, what did you mean?

13        A.   These were the early days of the war.  This was, I think, the

14     first visual evidence we had of what came to be known as ethnic

15     cleansing.  I mean, the sheer numbers involved were -- were very great,

16     and this report did have a considerable impact, and, actually,

17     Your Honours, it still does.

18             Earlier this year, I received a letter from a man in Canada who

19     had been the little baby dressed in green, carried in the arms of a man

20     in that great file of the thousands, and this Canadian, he told me that

21     his -- that the man was his uncle, who'd later been killed in the war,

22     and he was grateful, at least, for the existence of this report because

23     it was the only evidence they had of what had happened at that time.  And

24     I wrote back to him, wishing to God that the rest of his life could be

25     more peaceful than the beginning of it.

Page 9787

 1        Q.   Did you bring the matter of what you had seen and reported on in

 2     the clip we've just viewed to anyone's attention?

 3        A.   Yes.  We drove as fast as we could from Tuzla to Ilidza, and I

 4     was editing this footage on the first-floor room that we had, when we saw

 5     an official car pull up.  And I went rushing down to the reception of the

 6     hotel, and it was Colm Doyle, the representative of Lord Carrington.  And

 7     before he'd even checked in, I took him aside and told him what had

 8     happened, and I said I thought he should bring it to the attention of

 9     Dr. Karadzic.

10        Q.   Do you know whether or not that ever happened?

11        A.   I believe that it -- that it did happen, though, in fairness, I

12     mean, I just wanted Dr. Karadzic to know what was -- what was going on.

13     These were the -- the fighting, so far as we know, had been done by

14     Arkan's paramilitaries, which were certainly not at any time under the --

15     under the control of the accused in this case.

16        Q.   How would you know that?

17        A.   Because I knew Arkan.  Arkan took orders from nobody, nobody.  He

18     was -- he had a very tense relationship even with the -- even with the

19     JNA.  Having said that, he couldn't have got across the border through

20     the roadblocks without some collusion somewhere and somebody letting his

21     men across.  But, you know -- and, you know, I knew this guy really well.

22     He used to describe me as his friend, which was putting it a bit much.

23     But, no, I knew him really well.  I knew his mind, Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25             Could we have this clip, then, Your Honours, 65 ter 4051C [sic],

Page 9788

 1     as the next Prosecution exhibit, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit P2002.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Now, you referred, Mr. Bell, to a further interview that you

 5     conducted -- a further report that you made to protect or to save your

 6     cameraman from retaliation of some kind.  Did that report include an

 7     interview with Dr. Karadzic?

 8        A.   Yes, it did.  I can't remember where the interview was shot,

 9     because by then I believe he'd taken off to Pale.  It must have been shot

10     around there at some time.  He was no longer in Sarajevo at that time.

11        Q.   Do you recall, by any chance, what you might have had to do to

12     arrange that interview?

13        A.   It may have been shot by the Sarajevo agency pool.  It may have

14     not even -- at 18 years' distance, I can't remember, even, whether I

15     arranged it myself.  But I certainly didn't need a spokesman from that

16     side to explain their view of what was going on in these very volatile

17     early days of the war.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like now to go to 65 ter 40517D, the report

19     that we've just been discussing.  40517D.

20             I just see, Your Honours, that one of the booths doesn't have a

21     copy.  So Mr. Reid will print that up, and we'll make sure they have it.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "Martin Bell:  It's estimated here that fighting has been going

24     on in 17 different parts of Bosnia, a number that varies from day to day.

25     Today's hotspot was Visegrad.  This is the voice of a Muslim extremist

Page 9789

 1     who has taken over a dam on the River Drina and is threatening to blow it

 2     up.  If he does, it will cause incalculable damage to the valley below,

 3     which includes the town of Zvornik, captured by Serbian forces in the

 4     past two days.  The Serbs insist that the refugees and casualties were on

 5     their side, too, although they get less attention, and they absolutely

 6     deny the reports of massacres of civilians.  What is certain is that

 7     every day there are thousands of refugees, Serbs, Croats and Muslims,

 8     driven from their homes in mixed communities and seeking somewhere safer.

 9     The leader of the Serbs here speaks of Bosnia as being already divided

10     into three."

11             "Karadzic:  In Serbian part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is no

12     war, there is no mess, there is no chaos.  There is law and order, there

13     is state functioning.  In Muslim Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is chaos.  In

14     Croatian Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is war."

15             "Martin Bell:  In the new and dangerous realities here, it is the

16     civil of all communities who are suffering, and their political leaders,

17     so far from negotiate, are hardly speaking to each other.

18             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Bell, in this video-clip, we heard Dr. Karadzic say to the

21     effect of "in the Serbian part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there is no war, no

22     mess, no chaos."  What did you understand him to be describing when he

23     referred to the Serbian part of the former republic?

24        A.   I imagined he was referring to what you'd call the Serbian

25     heartlands, rather than to formerly mixed towns like Zvornik, Visegrad,

Page 9790

 1     Foca.  The reference would have been to the Serbian heartlands.

 2        Q.   Those areas -- did you have any information as to what was going

 3     on in those parts of the former republic that were ethnically mixed;

 4     Zvornik, Visegrad, Foca and elsewhere?

 5        A.   Not sufficiently.  I've always had reservations about

 6     broadcasting reports of atrocities, because they can merely make things

 7     worse, and if they are unfounded, it's irresponsible.  And one of the

 8     reasons that in the "Panorama" programme I was talking about earlier we

 9     interviewed a lot of victims, it was because in these early days, we had

10     just rumours of what was going on.  And when I discovered what actually

11     had been going on, which was targeted killing and people being taken away

12     from some of these communities in buses, and the buses would then be

13     riddled with bullets, what we broadcast in these early days was very

14     fragmentary and incomplete, but it wasn't false.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16             Could this clip, please, 40517D, be the next Prosecution exhibit?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2003, Your Honours.

19             MS. EDGERTON:

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Bell, you mentioned, in discussing this last clip,

21     something called the Sarajevo agency pool.  What was that?

22        A.   This was an innovation for which I was partly responsible.  The

23     early fighting was so chaotic as the front-lines were established, and

24     there were at that time two principal news agencies -- television news

25     agencies, WTN, World Television News, and VIZ News, which later became

Page 9791

 1     Reuters, and their cameramen would compete with each other and offer

 2     their material to Eurovision every day, as would we.  But for the

 3     agencies, there was a -- there was a winner and a loser every day, and

 4     they were being impelled by commercial imperatives to take -- in my view,

 5     to take ridiculous risks.  And so I suggested a meeting of them and us

 6     and the other national broadcasters, and we came up with the idea that

 7     any material shot by any of our cameras would then be available to

 8     everybody.

 9             Now, the news agencies in London didn't like this altogether.

10     One of them called the cameraman in Sarajevo and said, Have you guys lost

11     the killer instincts?  That's what he actually said.  But the case for it

12     was so overwhelming that the Sarajevo agency pool was established by

13     about the 22nd of April, and it -- and it saved lives.  And it remained

14     in operation -- this syndicate, if you like, of news agencies, it

15     remained in operation until the summer of 1995, when it was ended by

16     Reuters.  I felt it was a constructive and life-saving experiment.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18             I'd like to play another film clip, then, also drawn from the

19     exhibits in your consolidated statement, 65 ter 40348G.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             "Martin Bell:  In Sarajevo, the horrors are not just heard of,

22     but lived through day by day.  This is a particularly heavy bombardment

23     on the old city.  A single artillery shell fell on a queue of people

24     waiting to pick up water outside the brewery.  Eight were killed, 18

25     seriously injured.  Of the dead, three came from one family, the mother

Page 9792

 1     and father who were killed instantly and the daughter who died later in

 2     hospital."

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Mr. Bell, this is one of your reports drawn from the "Panorama"

 5     programme in January 1993.  But what I'd like to ask you is:  Is this a

 6     Sarajevo agency pool film?

 7        A.   I believe it is.  I can't be for sure at this distance, but the

 8     cameramen was on the ground very quickly, and they -- they were in that

 9     area much of the time, so I would think it probably -- it probably was,

10     yes.

11        Q.   How is it that cameramen were able to be in the city centre, on

12     the ground, as you put it, so very quickly if there was an incident to

13     report on?

14        A.   Well, it was their -- it was their business.  Most of the -- much

15     of the serious fighting happened between the -- roughly, the Holiday Inn

16     and the Bascarsija, the old town.  And, you know, we knew when there

17     might be an up-surge in the fighting, because there often was, just

18     before a cease -- one of the many cease-fires came into effect or when

19     there was a distinguished foreign visitor visiting the Presidency.  The

20     Presidency was once rather famously attacked when Mr. Akashi was inside

21     it.  So some of these things were almost predictable.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

23             Could we have this 40348G, please, as the next Prosecution

24     exhibit?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 9793

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2004, Your Honours.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Bell, earlier today you noted that, based on your

 4     observations and your recollection, the war around Sarajevo was, in the

 5     summer of 1995, as intensive as it was in the summer of 1992.  Do you

 6     recall that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  I would like to now play you two of your reports,

 9     one from 1992 and one from 1995, and, following that, ask for your

10     comment, please.

11             The first one is 65 ter 40372C, and it dates from June 22nd,

12     1992.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Martin Bell:  In the two days since the United Nations withdrew

15     from the airport, the city has been under almost constant bombardment.

16     The firing has gone both ways, since it is not defenceless, but we have

17     watched as the Serbs, in effect, walked their mortar fire across Sarajevo

18     and on to the old town.  And then at lunchtime today, a round fell

19     directly in the middle of the main shopping street.  In spite of

20     everything, people do go out in large numbers at this time of day, and

21     the mortar claimed its victims at random among them.  This is the second

22     time there has been an attack of this kind, and it has to increase the

23     pressure for outside armed intervention.  Nothing else is working.  This

24     was the same street a short time later, the dead and the injured had been

25     taken away, the mortar bombs kept on falling.  To say that the daily life

Page 9794

 1     of these people is intolerable is understatement.  There is no safe place

 2     or time.  This house was hit last night for the third time.  The woman

 3     inside had lost her son in the war and saved her grandchildren by minutes

 4     when she sent them underground to safety.  At the best count we have,

 5     there are 52.000 children trapped in this hell hole.

 6             "She'll stay where she is.  She has nowhere to go and nowhere

 7     else to take them."

 8             "Martin Bell:  The business of Sarajevo is survival.  Its people

 9     have neither hope of escape, nor thought of surrender.

10             "We are all united here to fight for the freedom of our state,

11     even the children [indiscernible] what's going on here."

12             "Martin Bell:  After today's attack, survivors scramble to get on

13     board the one-and-only bus from the city centre.  Any lull in the

14     bombardment is a short one.  In previous times, there's always been some

15     hope of mediation.  Either the European Community Observers were here or

16     the United Nations.  Now the EC Observers have gone away, and the UN has

17     suspended most activity until 48 hours passed without any fighting.

18     Forty-eight hours?  There's hardly five minutes here.

19             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   Mr. Bell, do you have any comment that you wish to make on this

22     film from 22 June 1992?

23        A.   I think it shows quite vividly the helplessness of the people and

24     the extent to which they had been abandoned by the international

25     community.  I mean, it shocks me now, looking back on it, to think that

Page 9795

 1     the UN should have suspended its activities for 48 hours.  It should have

 2     intensified its activities.  I think it outrageous that this war was left

 3     to play itself out for three and a half years.  And I've thought a lot

 4     about this, Ms. Edgerton, and to me the blame lies also with the -- with

 5     the Western democracies, who didn't care enough about the people or

 6     understand that everyone's safety was threatened by this fire burning in

 7     a part of our common European home.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us how widely reports of yours like this would

 9     have been disseminated across Europe and further?

10        A.   Very widely, depending on the -- on the nature of the report at

11     the time.  It was such a dangerous place that many news organisations

12     tended not to send their staff there.  But we had a satellite dish first

13     in Ilidza and then at the television station from which reports were sent

14     out all over Europe, usually through the Eurovision news exchange.  A lot

15     of my reports were used by the BBC's, similar public broadcasters, the

16     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the Australian Broadcasting

17     Corporation, and my reports were used initially quite a lot by NBC, then

18     when the contracts changed, by ABC of America.  So, yes, they went a long

19     way beyond the shores of the United Kingdom.

20        Q.   In your discussions with the accused, did you ever have occasion

21     to talk about any number of these reports that you had made about the

22     situation in Sarajevo?

23        A.   I think the accused was well aware of these -- of these reports.

24     I believe on one occasion, I don't know if it was one of my reports,

25     there was a report on the BBC 6.00 News that he took issue with, and then

Page 9796

 1     quite reasonably he had the number of the BBC 6.00 News, and I believe he

 2     phoned.  I mean, this was -- this was, in a sense, open coverage of an

 3     open war among the people, and I'm sure that he was well aware of what we

 4     were reporting.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6             If we could have this clip, please, 40372C, as the next

 7     Prosecution exhibit.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2005, Your Honours.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we move on now to 40511A, a report of yours,

11     Mr. Bell, from June of 1995.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             "Martin Bell:  The United Nations here has lost all contact with

14     the Bosnian Serbs, yet the Serbs want to open talks with the contacts

15     group, whose peace plan they have rejected, about the hostages and about

16     security guarantees.  This may be an attempt to blitz their way back to

17     the conference table, but they do seek an end to their isolation.

18             "The Serbs are not doing well militarily.  They've called for

19     volunteers to hold the line on one battle-field, and near Brcko they've

20     failed in an offensive to widen the corridor connecting the two parts of

21     their territory.  They're also responding by tightening the noose on the

22     capital.  For the people here, it's like a return to the worst of times.

23     The Serbs have cut off both power and water.  The people of Sarajevo have

24     been here before.  They have learned to improvise and need all the best

25     friends they can find.

Page 9797

 1             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Mr. Bell, how was this, to your mind, a return to the worst of

 4     times in June of 1995?

 5        A.   Because there was no cease-fire, by the summer of 1995 -- by May

 6     1995, the fighting was intensifying, not just because the Serbs were

 7     pressing whatever advantage they had, but because the Bosnian Government

 8     forces were seeking to break the encirclement of the city both from

 9     inside and outside.  I mean, there were offensives.  There was some days

10     when we were sure there was a higher volume of fire going out of the city

11     from inside than was coming into the city from outside.  And there was

12     one offensive, particularly, in which Bosnian Government forces, up this

13     slope, managed to get across the main road that we used to go from

14     Lukavica, the Serb barracks there, to Pale.  It was a -- they were beaten

15     back, but there was -- there was some serious and, I would say, suicidal

16     assaults by Bosnian Government forces.  And we knew the extent of them

17     from the many death notices in the newspaper "Oslobodjenje."

18        Q.   And when you referred to a return to the worst of times, what

19     period of time were you referring to?

20        A.   I was referring to that dreadful first summer of the war, when so

21     many of the worst atrocities occurred, the level of fighting, the amount

22     of incoming fire.  And, of course, that continued through the winter, as

23     you saw with the report that I showed -- you showed from the

24     water-carriers under fire from "Panorama."  But the level of fighting was

25     never constant throughout the three and a half years.  There were

Page 9798

 1     cease-fires, there was the Jimmy Carter-brokered peace deal, and it was

 2     as if it followed a pattern that both sides would use a winter lull, say,

 3     from December to March to replenish, to re-equip, and to prepare for the

 4     coming offensive, and that's what happened in the spring of 1995.

 5        Q.   This broadcast also referred to Bosnian Serb forces tightening

 6     the noose on the capital.  What did you mean to convey by that?

 7        A.   I mean, when they -- when they cut off the -- when they cut off

 8     the gas, when they didn't allow UNHCR convoys through, then they were

 9     tightening the noose.

10        Q.   Did events in Bosnia -- elsewhere in Bosnia tend to have any

11     effect on events in Sarajevo, to your observation?

12        A.   I think I noted somewhere that events in Sarajevo were like a

13     barometer of what was happening elsewhere, but that may have been wishful

14     thinking, because we were able to travel out less and less as the war

15     continued.  But we were aware of substantial changes in the -- in the gap

16     against the Croatian border, when the towns of Grahovo and Glamoc fell.

17     We were aware of an incredibly complex situation in the Bihac area, to

18     which I had no access, but where there were five different forces

19     fighting.  And the Serbs were first pushed back, and then they recovered

20     a lot of ground.  And the only access we had to what was happening was

21     through their television.  In my book, I call it "soldier vision."  It

22     was usually shot by a soldier.  But for us, Sarajevo was, I suppose,

23     always the center of things, because we were -- we were, for long

24     periods, unable to travel out to work and not -- I mean, the most

25     frustrating time, I think, was the summer of 1995, when -- after

Page 9799

 1     Srebrenica had fallen, and we could give no account for many weeks of

 2     what might have happened.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 4             Could this video, 65 ter 40511A, be the next Prosecution exhibit?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2006, Your Honours.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8             And, Mr. Bell, I'd like to close with one of your further reports

 9     taken from the "Panorama" programme in 1993, and it has the 65 ter number

10     40348E.

11             And for my colleagues in the booth, that was the last transcript

12     you received.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Martin Bell:  Just a year ago, before the war, Sarajevo took

15     pride in its diversity.  Mosques, churches and synagogues nestled

16     companionably across the fault lines of two old empires.  Now there's

17     more than a city destroyed, a way of thinking too.  In place of the old

18     one:  Love and let live, is the new one:  Kill or be killed.  The place

19     has become a city of the dead, as the graveyards advance on the centre.

20     First one park was filled up, then another.  Now the dead are buried on a

21     football field, within line of sight of Serbian snipers and easy range of

22     the mortar bombs.  The Bosnian Government admits having lost 2.300 of its

23     fighters in the defence of the city, the Serbs at least as many.  They,

24     too, have cemeteries filling up under fire.  There are no winners here."

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 9800

 1        Q.   Do you have any comments you wish to make on this last

 2     video-clip, Mr. Bell?

 3        A.   Yes.  Again, it is a -- it is a reflection and, I'd even say, a

 4     lamentation on the war.  It was my considered conclusion for the

 5     "Panorama" programme.  What you're seeing here is virtually the death of

 6     a city, or at least you're seeing the death of a city as it used to be,

 7     and you could still see the scale of the fighting in the acres of graves.

 8     And I've always thought that this terrible war didn't have to happen.  It

 9     could have been averted.

10             Now, most of what you saw there were the graves of Muslims.  If

11     you were to go to the Bosnian Serb town of Sokolac, they've got a --

12     they've got a very moving cemetery there, where so many -- there are

13     thousands of their soldiers are killed.  And I may have got a bit too

14     emotional about it.  I tried not to in that report.  But I thought then,

15     and I think now, Ms. Edgerton, what a terrible waste of lives.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  That's the examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

17             And at this point, I would just ask that those associated

18     exhibits, not already tendered into evidence during Mr. Bell's in-chief,

19     be marked as further Prosecution exhibits.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll first deal with the exhibit that has been

21     played in the courtroom.  We'll admit -- we'll give the number for that.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P2007, Your Honours.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I was advised that there are some video footage, the

25     transcript of which does not match with the actual video, so I will ask

Page 9801

 1     the Court Deputy or Legal Officer to communicate with you to sort it out

 2     in due course.

 3             Are there any objections from the Defence?

 4             So those associated exhibits that have not yet been admitted will

 5     be admitted and given numbers by the Court Deputy and circulated to the

 6     parties in due course.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 8             And my apologies, again, for the situation with the transcripts

 9     to everyone.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

11             Now, Mr. Karadzic, it's for you to cross-examine Mr. Bell.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

13             Good morning, everyone.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bell.

16             First of all, I'd like to express my gratitude to you for meeting

17     with the Defence team, and I hope it will enable me to make this

18     cross-examination shorter and smoother.

19             You are, perhaps, my best opportunity, in view of your experience

20     from many wars, to present a picture of the real nature of the war in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you agree?

22        A.   That may well be so, sir.

23        Q.   Thanks.  Looking at the list of all the wars from which you

24     reported, some of them are quite similar, others are quite different.

25     There were wars where professional armies were involved, militias, and in

Page 9802

 1     others, civilians waged war.  Do you agree that the Bosnian war resembled

 2     most the war in El Salvador, out of the list of wars where you worked as

 3     a reporter?

 4        A.   I believe, Mr. Karadzic, there's some truth in that, in that it

 5     more closely resembled civil wars than it did what the military analysts

 6     call industrial wars fought by formations of regular units against each

 7     other to achieve a decisive result.  But I would go on to say that

 8     I think the war in Bosnia was really unlike any other that I have ever

 9     witnessed, both for its ferocity, for the difficulties in bringing it to

10     a close, for the lack of distinction between soldiers and civilians, and

11     for long periods I felt that for all the -- that the Geneva Conventions

12     might not have existed, because they didn't seem to apply to it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I noted a passage from your evidence, in addition to

14     what you said about the lack of distinction between soldiers and

15     civilians, and that is that civilians were trapped in this war.  Let me

16     ask you:  Were you aware that a large number of fighting men on both

17     sides, especially on the Muslim side, called today the federation, were

18     waging war in civilian clothing?

19        A.   I believe that certainly happened in the early weeks of the war,

20     when, apart from the JNA, there were no regular formations anywhere,

21     except maybe the Territorial Defence.  What we found, as the front-lines

22     solidified around Sarajevo, were groups of armed men, mostly in civilian

23     clothes.  But then on both sides, something more recognisable as regular

24     forces emerged.  But there were also -- there were armed criminals as

25     well who, I think, used this period of anarchy for their own purposes.

Page 9803

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On the issue of trapping of civilians, would you

 2     agree that restricting movement and transferring civilians into safer

 3     areas also contributed to the suffering of civilians and that installing

 4     military infrastructure and military targets in civilian areas also

 5     contributed to civilian suffering?

 6        A.   Well, first of all, Dr. Karadzic, many of the civilians who were

 7     able to fled for their own safety.  This was the case with the scenes

 8     that were shown near Zvornik.  As far as Sarajevo was concerned, it

 9     became, of course, a city at war.  Its established military barracks were

10     both -- used by United Nations contingents.  And, yes, any city at war

11     will be a militarised city, but even in those circumstances I can see no

12     justification -- I mean, obviously civilians will be caught in the

13     cross-fire in such a situation, but I can see no justification for either

14     side or any side in any war targeting civilians.

15        Q.   Thank you.  We agree on that completely, and we are not trying to

16     justify anything.  We will just be trying to understand, and you will be

17     a very precious witness in this attempt to understand what was going on.

18             You underlined another peculiarity of this war, compared to other

19     wars that you witnessed, and that is what you called a deep historical

20     background, richer than in other wars.  Did you mean the ethnic

21     components, the components of civil war after the First and especially

22     after the Second World War?

23        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic.  I believe that the -- I mean, the history of

24     the peoples of Bosnia is peculiarly complex, and I've written of the

25     Serbs, and I - this is not in any way critical of the Serbs - rather

Page 9804

 1     admire them for it.  But you live your history like no other people on

 2     earth.  I mean, you go back to 1389.  And, of course, when I first

 3     arrived -- when we first met in March 1992, I was pretty well aware of

 4     the complexity of the past, especially the wartime experiences.  I had

 5     already worked, you understand, in the Croatian war, and I was aware of

 6     what had happened in the concentration camp at Jasenovac.  I was aware of

 7     the suffering of your people, and I don't think it would have been

 8     possible to operate as a reporter for these three and a half years in

 9     Bosnia without knowing a lot about your history before I began and

10     discovering even more as I -- as I went along.  And that's said in a most

11     respectful way.

12        Q.   Thank you very much for this.  Would I be right in believing that

13     you also came to realise that the anxieties and fears of various peoples

14     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I'm particularly familiar with those of

15     the Serbs, were genuine and derived from the Second World War, which was

16     not that long ago?

17        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, indeed I do.  This was -- this understanding

18     was with me -- was with me all the time.  And I came to believe that

19     Tito's attempt to fashion a republic of brotherhood and unity, although

20     it probably became closer to realisation in Bosnia than anywhere else,

21     and I think I'm right in saying there was more inter-marriage in Bosnia,

22     I think it was perhaps doomed to fail simply because of the folk memory

23     of those terrible events in the Second World War.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You took the position that after the events in

25     Slovenia and Croatia, the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina seemed inevitable?

Page 9805

 1        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I have argued repeatedly that -- as

 2     Lord Carrington did, that when the European Community agreed to the

 3     recognition of Croatia, it made war in Bosnia inevitable.

 4     Lord Carrington warned that it could well be the small spark that ignites

 5     the powder keg of Bosnia, and yet the European Community agreed to this.

 6     And when I lay the blame for what happened beyond the peoples and armies

 7     of Bosnia as the war developed, I believe that the Western democracies,

 8     and specifically my own government, bear some burden of responsibility.

 9     In fact, I can tell you that after I left Bosnia, I fell into politics in

10     the United Kingdom and became briefly a member of Parliament, and this

11     was one of my motivating forces.  I thought, If this is how little

12     politicians can do, maybe I can try to do better as a politician.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you get the impression - and I believe you

14     discussed this - that the rest of Europe and Serbia's erstwhile allies,

15     England and France, succumbed under pressure of other countries to

16     recognise -- to recognise Croatia and Bosnia; they did it reluctantly,

17     but they did it?

18        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, this is -- this remains controversial, but I

19     note that the concession given by the British to the Germans over the

20     recognition of Croatia, because the Germans, through

21     Hans-Dietrich Genscher, were pressing for it, that concession coincided

22     within two weeks with a concession by the Germans to the British over the

23     opted-out clauses of the Maastricht Treaty, which were then controversial

24     within the British Conservative government under pressure from its Euro

25     skeptics.  And after that meeting, John Major, a decent man, the,

Page 9806

 1     prime minister, went back to the House of Commons, having secured these

 2     concessions, and announced, in the tennis metaphor, Game, set and match.

 3     I think that decision cast some very long shadows.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In the course of our interview, I presented to you

 5     our theory that Yugoslavia was created in 1918 by our allies, England,

 6     France and Italy, and also, in some sense, so that Croatia and Slovenia

 7     be taken out from under German pressure.  And then later on, Slovenia

 8     came under German pressure anyway, and the whole of Yugoslavia later.

 9     Would you agree that when Germany's weak, Yugoslavia is created?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just before you answer, Mr. Bell:  I'm wondering

11     what the relevance of these lines of questions are.  I allowed you some

12     leeway to understand the context of the conflict, but I don't see the

13     point of delving into detail.  So could you be brief, Mr. Karadzic, on

14     this.

15             Having said that, Mr. Bell, could you answer the question?

16             THE WITNESS:  I don't think I'm qualified to speculate on what

17     happened in 1918.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS:  I prefer to talk about things nearer today.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  That

21     was my last question on history.  But we really wonder to what extent we

22     are able to decide our own fate, because we are, after all, part of

23     broader politics.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you agree that the short-lived war in Croatia was also able to

Page 9807

 1     generate genuine fears among ordinary people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2        A.   Well, I remember that it wasn't so short-lived.  It began in June

 3     and ended in about February of the next year, and it claimed thousands of

 4     lives.  But, of course, it destabilised the whole region.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But as far as fear is concerned, do you believe that

 6     fed the anxiety and fears of ordinary people and inspired them to take

 7     measures of self-defence, made them wary of their neighbours, et cetera?

 8        A.   Yes, I think it was clear at that time that Yugoslavia was

 9     falling apart, and all its peoples had grounds for great anxiety.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In addition to this historical peculiarity and the

11     obsession with history, you noted that in Bosnia-Herzegovina, communities

12     waged war, one against another, there was war among militias and ordinary

13     people, and you could see that even best men killed one another?

14        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, that is -- that is -- that is certainly true.

15     But there was not, as you -- as we both understand, a total separation of

16     the people throughout the war.  I mean, there were tens of thousands of

17     Serbs inside Sarajevo for the three and a half years of its duration.

18     We're not talking about entirely separated communities.

19        Q.   Thank you.  It seems you know about it as doctrine of armed

20     people; that is to say, the Territorial Defence, which was organised for

21     the contingency of some attack on Yugoslavia from the east, and you were

22     aware that there were large amounts of weapons distributed across

23     municipalities, and even companies and businesses, all within the concept

24     of All People's Defence.  Was it, indeed, your theory that Bosnia was

25     quite well supplied with weapons and did not need any imported?

Page 9808

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  There is two pretty distinct questions in there,

 3     Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.

 5             Shall I ask the accused to break it up, or would you be able to

 6     answer the question, having the benefit of the transcript?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I'll answer it -- answer them briefly.

 8             I'm aware of the Territorial Defence.  I'm aware of the existence

 9     of arsenals within Bosnia.  It was -- and I'm aware that especially

10     Central Bosnia was the arms-producing centre of Yugoslavia.  In Vitez,

11     they made dynamite.  In Bugojno, they made land-mines.  I don't think

12     this is in dispute, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Karadzic, refrain from asking compound questions.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm trying to save

16     time, but to my own detriment, it seems.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Would I be right in saying that you were quite able to

19     distinguish between periods of presence of the Yugoslav People's Army in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and its role, and periods after the JNA left?

21        A.   Yes.  It was a confusing time, but it was a very swift

22     transition.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that up to the 20th May, the date of

24     the pull-out of the Yugoslav People's Army, the Territorial Defence was

25     in place, as well as self-organised groups, without any centralised

Page 9809

 1     control or command?

 2        A.   Yes, I would -- I would -- I would agree to that, the

 3     self-organised groups with all three of Bosnia's peoples, but most of

 4     the -- most of the weaponry was accessible to the Serbs.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Could we now view a video that could perhaps help illustrate this

 7     subject.  It's 1D2885.  I hope transcripts exist.  No, they don't?

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "There are paramilitary people in the city who are under nobody's

10     control, and they come from all ethnic backgrounds.  And they have to

11     come under somebody's control, because they, together with others, are

12     destroying the city."

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Is it consistent with your knowledge and your position?  Did you

15     make this film?

16        A.   I rather remember making this.  I think it was in Ilidza, and I

17     accept entirely what Colm Doyle was saying there at that time.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             May this be received, this clip?

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D916, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you agree that all the way up to the 20th of May or later,

Page 9810

 1     there were not enough opportunities to gain insight, let alone control,

 2     over the developments on the ground; I mean, primarily the events in

 3     Zvornik?  Is it true that we were hardly able to find out what was going

 4     on, let alone control it?

 5        A.   Dr. Karadzic, those were the very -- the very early days.  There

 6     was no Bosnian Serb army in existence at that time.  The

 7     Bosnian Government didn't have its own organised army, neither did the

 8     Croats.  This was part of the anarchy of the early days of the war.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You were based in Holiday Inn, and, to the best of

10     your knowledge, there were many crews based there, over 50 crews of the

11     largest news agencies?

12        A.   I would be surprised if there were as many as 50, Dr. Karadzic.

13     Some came in and out briefly, but those who stayed for the duration were

14     the Sarajevo agency pool, CNN, ourselves, the Germans and the French.

15     And I wasn't actually based in Holiday Inn until towards the end of June

16     1992, because, as you know, it was partly destroyed in some earlier

17     incidents.

18        Q.   At that time, we met, you and I, in the Serbian part of Ilidza.

19     Do you remember that we both had offices in the same hotel and held press

20     conferences there?

21        A.   Yes, indeed, I remember it vividly.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall one attack by Muslim Green Berets, who

23     fired even at your hotel where you were staying, although they were not

24     targeting you deliberately, but they were firing at the Serbian part of

25     Ilidza?  I believe that was in April 1992.

Page 9811

 1        A.   Yes, I remember that attack vividly.  In fact, I had a bullet

 2     pass very close to my head and bury itself in the wall behind me, which I

 3     dug out and put in my pocket as a -- as a sort of a good luck mascot.

 4     And a friend of mine, an agency cameraman, was quite badly wounded in

 5     that attack.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I noticed that you acknowledged and appreciated the

 7     way we treated you and that you were able to access Serb territory, but

 8     also the main players, as you put it?

 9        A.   It was a very unusual experience for me, and I did appreciate

10     that, that access and your hospitality, sir.  And I very much regret that

11     for the last 15 months of the war, we had no access to you or your

12     headquarters or your staff.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that during the first two years, you

14     could travel around Republika Srpska without any escort from us, just by

15     virtue of the fact that you were accredited?

16        A.   Yes, that is true.  If I had tried to get to active front-lines,

17     I -- there were -- there was one time you gave me an escort just to be

18     helpful.  But, no, when I visited Republika Srpska at that time, the

19     greatest difficulty -- hazard I faced was actually driving across the

20     airport runway, which was like a -- like a free-fire zone.  Once I got to

21     Lukavica, I was safe.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the establishment of government and

23     control and the state organism of Republika Srpska was, in a way, a

24     green-field project, as it were?  Without institutions and without

25     infrastructures, we started establishing law and order and the rule of

Page 9812

 1     law?

 2        A.   Dr. Karadzic, clearly there was -- there was a rule of law within

 3     your heartland, I mean, Banja Luka, Pale, the Romanija Plain.  I don't

 4     expect to find the rule of law in a war zone on active confrontation

 5     lines.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  It is from that point of view that I was wondering

 7     whether you had noticed that the worst days and the most terrible crimes

 8     occurred over those two months before June, and that later on, as some

 9     kind of control was being established, the number of crimes went down.

10     Does that tally with your own observations?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We need some reference.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  It's just really rather vague and broad right now.

14             THE WITNESS:  I can manage an answer, if it's helpful.

15             JUDGE KWON:  If you could.

16             THE WITNESS:  I mean, it is a matter of record that some of the

17     very worst crimes of deliberate murder were committed in the early weeks

18     of the war; not the only ones, but some of them.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And if you could comment on the last part of his

20     question.

21             THE WITNESS:  Does that tally with my observations?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE WITNESS:  In a limited area in Sarajevo.  But we didn't find

24     out about some of the worst crimes actually for many weeks or months,

25     because they were hidden and they happened far away from any journalists,

Page 9813

 1     any UN, any anything.  It was a time of anarchy.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Could I now --

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Actually, your observation was that the JNA in Sarajevo played a

 8     constructive role and that they were not to be blamed for what was

 9     happening in Sarajevo at first while they were there; right?

10        A.   When the war began, I remember there being a plan for joint

11     patrols between them and others.  I knew General Kukanjac.  I am not sure

12     the extent to which his heavy weapons may have been involved at some

13     stage.  I was in the main street where -- in the early days where there

14     was certainly some incoming either artillery or attack fire, so I don't

15     know where that came from.

16        Q.   Thank you.  When you were speaking about the possibility of

17     having a war avoided altogether, did you have in mind the offer of the

18     European Community concerning the reconstruction of Bosnia into three

19     ethnic republics, well known as the Lisbon Agreement or the

20     Cutileiro Plan, the Carrington/Cutileiro project, as it were?

21        A.   I had in mind, first of all, what might have happened if Croatia

22     had not been unilaterally recognised so early, but, yes, I remember the

23     Lisbon Conference as a time of hope, and I wish it had succeeded because

24     so many lives would have been saved.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9814

 1             Could I please call up 1D2881.  Could I have in e-court, please.

 2     It's a video-clip which will help us illustrate -- or, rather, establish

 3     what it is that we are discussing.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "Martin Bell:  The Serbs here are on the defensive, but holding

 6     the line, the front-line, situate this morning to the west of the city,

 7     an area of hotels set in parkland which had been the secure headquarters

 8     both of the European Community Observers and of the foreign press.  Our

 9     morning call came from the barrel of a gun.  Many guns on both sides.

10     This is a mainly Serbian enclave, and it seems that the Muslims,

11     emboldened by their relative success in the city center late yesterday,

12     were attempting to storm Ilidza today.  They were met with stiff

13     resistance by the Serbs.  It was a battle of fire and movement in which

14     the Serbs were trying to improve their positions tree by tree across the

15     front-line.  It was also dangerous, obviously, for the photographers.

16     The veteran VIZ News cameraman, Rob Seliers [phoen], who shot these

17     pictures, was the furthest forward and paid the penalty for it.  He was

18     taken to an army hospital, then flown to Belgrade, where he is now safe.

19     It was, up until this point, the federal army's only involvement in the

20     battle.

21             "An 11.00 a.m. cease-fire dead-line came and went, and the

22     fighting after it was, if anything, fiercer than it was before.  There is

23     no mediation, there are no peace talks, only Serbs and Muslims battling

24     it out; yet the would-be peace-makers were here on the spot, a dangerous

25     one.  They included the personal envoy of Lord Carrington, who is due to

Page 9815

 1     visit tomorrow. "

 2             "Lord Carrington:  We have to consider whether or not it is safer

 3     at this stage for this important visit to take place."

 4             "Martin Bell:  Or if the will for peace is here."

 5             "Lord Carrington:  We don't know whether it is at the moment.  We

 6     made a lot of appeals.  The situation is very serious.  We are not too

 7     sure what we're going to do at this stage."

 8             "Martin Bell:  The battle lasted for a full 10 hours.  Only then

 9     did it begin to subside.  The Serbs had held their positions, but at a

10     cost which both sides are still counting.  One of the Serbian soldiers

11     told me how three of his comrades fell fighting alongside him.

12             "My cousin -- two of my cousins, and one of my best friends.  I

13     have [indiscernible] to God, but it was very bad."

14             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you recognise this to be the Command of the

17     2nd Military District in the center of Sarajevo that was attacked even

18     before May by paramilitary groups, the Green Berets and so on?  Is that

19     that area?

20        A.   I recognise it as the hotel where I was based.  And, of course, I

21     remember this whole scene very vividly.

22        Q.   Do you agree that this is proof of how fierce the fighting was,

23     in actual fact, when the JNA had already decided to withdraw, and there

24     was fighting going on involving them as well?

25        A.   If I reported there was no JNA involvement in this, except the

Page 9816

 1     evacuation of the cameraman, that is true.  The ferocity of the fighting

 2     is not in doubt, and I think this video-clip gives a very particular

 3     demonstration of it.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we please play 1D2883.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  That transcript for that video that we just saw is

 9     largely incomplete and contains a great deal of inaccuracies.  And

10     because it's an English transcript, one can easily see that by following

11     along with the video.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The problem is that the -- we have English sound,

13     but which cannot be, in full, translated into B/C/S.  But the accused is

14     bearing with it.

15             What would be your suggestion, Ms. Edgerton?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  I was actually also thinking about the translation

17     of that transcript into French, because it's important that Your Honours

18     have an accurate record of the transcript.  I would ask that if they

19     propose to use this, that they revise the transcript.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Is there a way, on the part of the Defence, to

21     provide the transcription of this video-clip, Mr. Karadzic?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, after -- after this is

23     admitted, we will certainly have it transcribed in English, but at this

24     moment we were not in a position to do so.  We were hoping that it could

25     be heard and interpreted, since the sound was quite good.  At any rate,

Page 9817

 1     we are going to have it transcribed, and we will submit the transcript.

 2             Can the clip be admitted?

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit it.  But in the meantime, we will

 5     mark it for identification until the time we'll get the English

 6     transcription.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D917, marked for

 8     identification, Your Honours.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  May I just make one further --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  I should have risen earlier, but a date, even

12     approximately, to the events depicted would be useful, I think, for all

13     of us.

14             THE WITNESS:  I can give you the date, sir, if it's of any help.

15             JUDGE KWON:  By all means.

16             THE WITNESS:  I was there.  It was the 22nd of April, 1992.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Fantastic.  Thank you, Mr. Bell.

18             I note the time, Mr. Karadzic.  It's time to have a break.

19             We'll break for half an hour and resume at 1.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Can I please have 1D2883.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9818

 1        Q.   Mr. Bell, I would like us to see what those first days looked

 2     like while there was still hope that peace would be established.

 3     Fortunately, you were there, and you saw for yourself everything that was

 4     happening.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             "Martin Bell:  There has been a gun battle going around this

 7     hotel in the parkland all morning, but [indiscernible] it hasn't stopped,

 8     its fight intense.  We've now been told that rather the

 9     European Community Monitoring here have been warned that this place is

10     targeted for incoming mortar fire sometime around now.  So it's not a

11     very comfortable situation, but I can assure you, from personal

12     experience, that there is no cease-fire here.  That is a hard line

13     [indiscernible] to say.  I'm sorry, it's a little bit disturbing, some of

14     this noise.  The Muslims are in a very difficult position,

15     geographically, and the Serbs have to [indiscernible], and the

16     Serbian Army have them surrounded.  On the other hand, the Muslims fought

17     back strongly yesterday, and as far as I can tell what's going on around

18     here, it's a fairly -- it's a fairly even match."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is this the hotel at Ilidza, and are you on Serb territory here?

22        A.   Yes, it is that hotel, and I am on Serb territory.

23        Q.   Your assessment was that this was a fairly even match; right?

24     That's what you say towards the end of this report?

25        A.   Yes, that is how it seemed to me.

Page 9819

 1        Q.   So there is no doubt that as for this Serb part of Ilidza, the

 2     Muslim group of the Green Berets was attacking from the other part of

 3     Ilidza; right?

 4        A.   I didn't know at the time they were Green Berets, but certainly

 5     the Serbs were under attack from the other side.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  This is also around the 22nd of April, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes, I think it is possibly the -- possibly the morning after.

 8     It was the day that bullet nearly hit me and it hit the wall behind my

 9     head.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Does it bear the same 65 ter number as the previous

13     one, Mr. Karadzic?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not the way it should be.  I

15     don't think that that is the case.  I think this should be the next day.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I was mistaken on that part.  But I'm wondering

17     whether we should mark it for identification as well, Ms. Edgerton, for

18     the sake of transcript.  Do we need -- we need the transcript?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Again, I'm just thinking of the translation of

20     this into French, if Your Honours are going to be giving it

21     consideration.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it can be MFI'd until we

23     provide a transcript.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it when the translation is

25     done, so we'll mark it for identification, pending translation.

Page 9820

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D918, marked for identification,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I meant "translation" to mean transcription of this

 5     video, not necessarily the translation.

 6             Yes, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you agree that Muslim armed groups felt rather self-confident

10     at the time and that they even attacked the JNA itself?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, the first part of that question calls

12     for speculation.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could you reformulate your question,

14     Mr. Karadzic?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll try.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you agree that from the very outset, there were numerous

18     groups, Muslim groups, that were armed and that were in town?

19        A.   There were certainly armed Muslim groups, and there were armed

20     Serb groups which appeared to me in many cases to be completely ad hoc,

21     so they had improvised.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that at first the JNA was expected to be

23     between the two parties and prevent the conflict?

24        A.   That was my understanding at the very beginning, yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now play this, the

Page 9821

 1     video-clip.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you recognise the man that you see on your screen?

 4        A.   Yes, I can.

 5        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber who it is?

 6        A.   It looks to me like General Kukanjac.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right.

 8             Can we play the video now.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             "Martin Bell:  'This army is staying in Bosnia-Herzegovina,' he

11     said, 'We are withdrawing from certain areas, especially those most under

12     attack, but we will continue to be the army of the people who shelter and

13     accept us.'  Outside the rumour, he was talking about the evidence of the

14     most recent attack.  His headquarters in the old part of town was shot at

15     again last night.  This is an angry general.  'Mortars, rockets, snipers,

16     bazookas, heavy machine-guns.'  He listed the weapons used against the

17     headquarters and produced the evidence, what he called his souvenirs,

18     along with a warning against whoever might try it again.  'If we are

19     attacked, we shall retaliate fiercely.'  He read from what he said was a

20     declaration of war by the Croats and the Muslims, led by

21     President Alija Izetbegovic.  The army until now has been more neutral in

22     this war than it was in Croatia, but its patience is strained.  It was

23     moving today to the Serbian side of the lines and taking its big guns

24     with it.

25             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."

Page 9822

 1             "Martin Bell:  So at the very gates of army headquarters this

 2     evening is the United Nations armoured car carrying

 3     President Izetbegovic.  This is where the deal holds together or falls

 4     apart.  The soldiers were already rushing to get out of the headquarters,

 5     and President Izetbegovic was present, if not as a hostage, at least as a

 6     most reluctant guest."

 7             "[Indiscernible] negotiation, negotiation in UNPROFOR."

 8             "Martin Bell:  He exchanged meetings with an army that he

 9     believes is an occupying force and spent some time with its general,

10     while the troops continued to load up and get out.  Under the deal, the

11     two men would then have gone their separate ways but Bosnian Television

12     tonight showed the argument that started when the convoy was stopped at a

13     Bosnian roadblock.  'We have an agreement,' said the president from

14     inside the armoured car, and both men got through, but nine of the army's

15     vehicles were highjacked, there is no peace.  And much of the city is

16     shattered.

17             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Sarajevo."

18             "Martin Bell:  In the wards where some of the ten soldiers

19     wounded when the army convoy carrying their commander to safety was

20     stopped late yesterday by Bosnian forces, nine vehicles hijacked, more

21     than 150 soldiers captured.  By the army's account, four of its men were

22     killed, including two colonels shot in cold blood in this ambulance.

23     General Kukanjac was still within sound of gunfire at his new

24     headquarters and angry.  'Nothing like it will happen again,' he said,

25     'because if we don't settle this, we will act differently.'  From

Page 9823

 1     Slovenia to Croatia to Bosnia, the federal army, the army of the old

 2     Yugoslavia, has taken a battering.  Culminating in the damage to its

 3     Sarajevo headquarters last weekend, the forced evacuation, the ambush of

 4     a convoy with 100 soldiers captured and we now know 14 killed."

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I just want to rise on

 7     one point.

 8             I've been sitting here with Mr. Reid and can see quite clearly

 9     that at least one part of this video has been included in the associated

10     exhibits from Mr. Bell's amalgamated statement.  And I wonder if it's at

11     all possible, as we go on, if we can be informed of the time codes or ERN

12     numbers from which these video-clips are taken, as we did in our initial

13     notification, to avoid the Chamber being unduly burdened with

14     duplicate -- duplicative evidence.

15             JUDGE KWON:  While we are on that issue, can I revisit -- not

16     "revisit."  It's about the transcription.

17             The video we've seen as part of an associated exhibit, are

18     there -- the transcript of those exhibited or what's the status of those

19     exhibits?  I can't find them in the e-court.  All I can find is just a

20     surrogate sheet, a one-page surrogate sheet.  So we should have marked

21     them for identification as well, then, if we follow the rule.  But it is

22     there?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  And I was just advised they're attached as

24     translations to the original surrogate sheet.  But, indeed, Your Honour,

25     I'll double-check that for you, because given the experience of this

Page 9824

 1     morning, I'm sorry to say that may not be the case with all of them.  But

 2     we'll certainly look into that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             It was, yes, as translation.  Thank you, we got it.  I think I

 5     can find it.  Yes, it's there.  Thank you.

 6             Now you have the answer to the question posed by Ms. Edgerton,

 7     Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  I believe that in our list,

 9     in our notification, there is a reference to the origin of each and every

10     one of these clips.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Can you confirm that, Ms. Edgerton?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  No, there's no time code references, Your Honour.

13     That's the thing.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Bell was kind enough to

15     inform us about Ilidza, the 22nd and the 23rd of April.  As for this, we

16     are going to provide the time reference to the OTP.  Oh, you meant the

17     minute code references.  That's what you meant?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  I thought you wanted to

20     know what the time of the actual occurrences was.  We are going to

21     provide you with this.  We are just going to specify what it was,

22     exactly.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So I propose to carry on, and that overlapping

24     problem could be sorted out in due course outside the courtroom between

25     the parties, with the assistance of the Registry.

Page 9825

 1             Let's move on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall now like to call up in

 3     e-court 1D2806.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, do you like to tender that piece

 5     where we could see General Kukanjac?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I wanted to ask Mr. Bell:  You saw that the JNA staff was under

 9     attack for a while, and the JNA was preparing to withdraw from Sarajevo;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Do you agree with what Kukanjac said, that from Slovenia through

13     Croatia, and now in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in some areas they were seen

14     as the enemy army and suffered many blows?

15        A.   They certainly suffered a blow when the agreement to exchange

16     General Kukanjac and his soldiers for the semi-captive Alija Izetbegovic

17     broke down, and I don't think there is any doubt that some of those

18     soldiers, especially the ones in the ambulance, were killed in cold

19     blood.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But do you also remember that there had been attacks

21     on the headquarters even before, and the day before, the JNA hall was

22     attacked, killing several soldiers?

23        A.   Yes.  That is why General Kukanjac showed us what he called his

24     souvenirs.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2806, please.  This is

Page 9826

 1     already in evidence.  It's a conversation between General Kukanjac and

 2     General Mandzic on the 21st April 1992.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, we'll -- I take it the 65 ter number of

 4     the previous clip was 1D2884.  I need the confirmation.

 5             I see the nodding.  That will be admitted, while marked for

 6     identification.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D919, marked for identification,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But how can it be shown here?  I was advised that we

10     do not have this one in e-court.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope we do have a translation.

13     This is an intercept of a conversation between General Mandzic and

14     General Kukanjac.  No, there is no translation.  But it's from the 21st

15     of April, and they are discussing what is going on in the city.  They are

16     discussing attacks from both sides of the Miljacka River.

17             Can we see the next page.

18             I will read what Kukanjac says:

19             "I called both Koljevic and Karadzic, and also all these Muslim

20     leaders, Come on, Muslims are shooting from Hum, they're shooting from

21     Crni Vrh, from Marin Dvor, from Zlatiste.  The other ones are shooting

22     from Vraca.  These raided an area in town.  It's horrible."

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you remember that Serbs were in Vraca, and in these other

25     neighbourhoods there were Muslims?  Do you recall these localities that I

Page 9827

 1     mentioned:  Hum, which is a hill, the one on which the TV relay is

 2     Crni Vrh, Marin Dvor, Zlatiste - they were held by Muslims then - whereas

 3     Vraca was held by the Serbs?  Do you recall that?

 4        A.   Is this a question to me?  I was -- I note there was very heavy

 5     fighting in Sarajevo on that day.  The exact positions, I didn't know.  I

 6     was caught up in the middle of it, in the middle of the city, sir.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  But you were aware of this fierce exchange of fire

 8     and this chaotic fighting that these two people are discussing?

 9        A.   Very much so, yes, I was aware of that.  I was in the middle of

10     it.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are about to see -- in fact, I'm

12     going to read out -- the next page, please.  I will read out the whole

13     sentence.  Kukanjac says -- the next after this.

14             The last sentence in this passage:

15             "That directive of Alija Izetbegovic is being implemented."

16             We need to see the top of the page.  It's the last sentence in

17     the first box:

18             "That directive of Alija Izetbegovic is being implemented."

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You had perhaps heard of some directives, but you were not sure

21     they existed.  Do you remember that on the 12th of April, a directive to

22     attack the JNA was issued, and it was renewed in the end of April?

23        A.   No.  On the 12th of April, I was describing the battle for

24     Kupres.  I was not aware of any directive at the time.  And, of course,

25     it would have been useful to know, but I was not aware of these

Page 9828

 1     directives or, indeed, of this conversation.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this be admitted as an MFI, pending translation?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It was not admitted, as indicated, earlier on.

 5             Ms. Edgerton, what was it you wanted to --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  I just don't think there's enough on this

 7     intercept for it to be admitted through this witness, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The witness was not able to confirm anything about

 9     this conversation, and as to the general condition, he testified on his

10     own.  So I don't think we need to admit this.  We'll not admit this

11     through this witness.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, although the

13     conversation between these two generals confirms what Mr. Bell had noted

14     as fierce and balanced fighting.

15             Can we now see 1D01258, please.  This is a directive, and for

16     this one, we have a translation, issued two days after the conversation

17     between the generals, and that's the second directive in April to attack

18     the JNA.  Please look at the English translation.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   They define enemy forces, and the JNA is proclaimed to be one of

21     the enemy forces, along with Serb territorial units in Serbian areas, in

22     Serbian autonomous provinces.

23             Can we see the next page in English, number 4, where it says:  "I

24     hereby decide ..."

25             Paragraph 4:  "I have decided ..."

Page 9829

 1             And then it goes on to order a general mobilisation of the entire

 2     Territorial Defence and joint command over this entire operation against

 3     the enemy, as they say:

 4             "Immediately capture weapons and ammunition depots, cut off

 5     barracks, capture them, and detain members of the JNA on the territory of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 7             And now could you look at number 5, the tasks.

 8             From your experience and knowledge, were the events that started

 9     on the 23rd of April consistent with what you see in this directive?

10        A.   Well, of course, I was not aware of this directive at the time.

11     It was issued on a day where Lord Carrington had succeeded in brokering a

12     cease-fire.  But I would have been surprised, in view of the ferocity of

13     the fighting in the two previous days, if there had not been an attempt

14     to seize weapons and co-ordinate a fighting force.

15        Q.   It's true that you could not have been aware of it, because it's

16     a written military secret.  It was not in the public domain, but it was

17     sent to Muslim military forces.

18             Could you please look at Point 6, "Support for Combat

19     Operations."

20             The next page, please, and in Serbian.

21             "Command and Communications."  In English, we need the next page

22     after this.

23             All this that you see here, does this look to you as a

24     comprehensive order for an all-out attack, well co-ordinated and well

25     commanded?

Page 9830

 1        A.   Of course, I had no sight of any internal documents of any of the

 2     fighting forces.  It looks to me like an attempt to establish a properly

 3     co-ordinated fighting force.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If you see number 7:

 5             "Immediately set up a command system in the following levels:

 6     Unit, municipal staff, district staff, Republican Staff ..."

 7             In Serbian, we need the next page.

 8             This was sent to municipal and regional staffs and signed by

 9     Commander Hasan Efendic.

10             Now, would you cast your mind back to the events of the 2nd and

11     3rd of May.  This was 10 days after this directive.  Do you see a logical

12     connection between this directive and what happened in the first days of

13     May?

14        A.   There was certainly very heavy fighting in Sarajevo on the 2nd of

15     May.  I believe that was the day that the trams stopped, and it lasted

16     all day.  I had no way of knowing, from my position on the ground, how it

17     began, but I believe that an attack on the Dom Armije, the officers'

18     club, was part of what happened.  And I know this because we were

19     threatened when we tried to get our cameras near it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You surely knew that there was an agreement between

21     the JNA and Izetbegovic that the JNA would pull out from Bosnia, and that

22     had been agreed in Skopje already at the end of April.  Do you know about

23     that agreement between Blagoje Adzic and Izetbegovic in Skopje about the

24     JNA pullout from Bosnia?

25        A.   Yes, and I was aware of the proposal for the exchange of Kukanjac

Page 9831

 1     for Izetbegovic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this document be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  It's D222, Your Honours.  It's already been

 6     admitted.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It was.  But at a later stage, in a decision dated

 8     30th of September, we denied the admission.  It was shown to

 9     Colonel Colm Doyle, who was not able to comment on this at the time.  But

10     given the answer by this witness, I'm asking your opinion.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, I think it's a slightly -- I was just

12     reading the comments that Colonel Doyle had given in respect of that

13     document, and I think the situation here is different, in fact, and I

14     have no objection.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             This will be now admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D920, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at another

19     video-clip, 1D2882.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Instead of giving a new number, we

21     are going to reinstate the old number.  So this will be admitted finally

22     as D222.  D222, yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2882.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You said yourself that you witnessed frequent iterations of peace

Page 9832

 1     offers for the benefit of your TV station; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  And, Dr. Karadzic, the cease-fires came and went with great

 3     regularity, and few of them lasted very long.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "Martin Bell: ... Sarajevo.  On board, a jet of the Portuguese

 6     Air Force and on a mission as difficult as any in diplomacy, to bring to

 7     a complete halt the fighting that had raged in the city for the previous

 8     two days and to re-establish a peace process between leaders who at this

 9     point were not even talking to each other, so little security and so

10     little understanding that he had to hold separate sessions with them in a

11     restaurant at the airport which is under federal army control and,

12     therefore, the only safe place in Sarajevo for negotiations.  The first

13     point, a real cease-fire was perhaps the easiest to agree to, the hardest

14     to enforce.  The leader of the Bosnian Serbs was among those committed to

15     it.

16             "Karadzic:  We have to sit down at the same table, even in help

17     to even get some peace for this country."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Do you recall this report?  You were present when the delegation

20     arrived, the Portuguese foreign minister and Lord Carrington; correct?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct, and you were accompanied by Mr. Koljevic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this video-clip be received?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I can advise that's -- that clip is

24     completely subsumed within 65 ter 40526B, which was an associated exhibit

25     to paragraph 61 of Mr. Bell's amalgamated statement.

Page 9833

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then we don't have to admit it

 2     separately.  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Now I should like to display 65 ter 30655.  It's an intercept

 5     between me and Professor Koljevic of the 4th of April, 1992, two days

 6     before the war broke out.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you recall, Mr. Doyle -- sorry, Mr. Bell.  At the time you

 9     were in Kupres, do you remember that on the 4th of April, the evening of

10     the 4th of April, Mr. Izetbegovic declared general mobilisation in

11     Bosnia?

12        A.   I was -- I was carried by a JNA helicopter to Kupres on the

13     14th -- on the 12th of April.  On the 4th, I was not yet in the country,

14     Dr. Karadzic.

15        Q.   Oh, I see.  Let me show you this intercept now, where I am

16     talking with Mr. -- with Professor Koljevic, who was a member of the

17     Presidency, alongside Izetbegovic.

18             We see it on the screen, and there is a translation.  The next

19     page, please.  The next page in both versions.

20             The first three boxes from the top, I ask what happened at the

21     Presidency, and Professor Koljevic explains that the Muslim side demanded

22     a mobilisation of the Territorial Defence:

23             [In English] "... so I said that there has to be a difference, if

24     we are in the favour of peace or the continuation of the political fight.

25     I told them that this move is politically negative, and, you know, we

Page 9834

 1     were in the conflict again, they are continuing their political fight."

 2             [Interpretation] If I may remind you, at that time the

 3     Lisbon Agreement had already been accepted, and two days before its

 4     expected ratification, Mr. Izetbegovic declared all-out mobilisation.  Do

 5     you agree that this must have been intimidating for the Serbs?

 6        A.   I can see why you would wish to introduce this as evidence at

 7     this trial.  I would prefer to comment -- reserve my comments to things

 8     that happened and statements that were made and battles that were fought

 9     while I was actually in your country.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The Trial Chamber would

11     probably be disinclined to receive this at this time.

12             Can we call up 37 -- sorry, 30714.  This is my conversation with

13     Radovan Pejic from the police, who was at Vraca at the time when you were

14     there, the 23rd of April, at the time of that heavy fighting.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Could you help us with this video?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you need that B/C/S version on the

18     monitor?  If you have a hard copy, we can collapse that and zoom in

19     further, for Mr. Bell's convenience, on the English version.  Let's do

20     that.  Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, I agree.  I don't need the

22     Serbian version on the screen.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Those are those critical days, and I'm calling and asking whether

25     that is Vraca.  If you remember, Vraca is a Serb neighbourhood above

Page 9835

 1     Grbavica, opposite the Holiday Inn.  Do you remember Vraca?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  That's where the headquarters of the Serb police was.

 4             Now I would like you to focus on this conversation.  The fifth

 5     part from below, Mr. Pejic is saying there are some indications that they

 6     keep getting organised down there in Grbavica.  As you remember, at

 7     Grbavica there were both Serb and Muslim armed groups at the time; right?

 8        A.   Right.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             And now I think we can actually look at the next page; the next

11     page in English, that is.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Pejic is informing me about the fact that there were attacks and

14     that the Serb police was just trying to be prepared if there is another

15     attack.  And I say:

16             "All right.  Today, a cease-fire should be signed, so we should

17     not start in any way and they should not, as such."

18             Does that correspond to your knowledge regarding my attempts to

19     preserve the cease-fire?

20        A.   It certainly corresponds to my recollection of the situation on

21     the ground at the time, that after two days of heavy fighting, one in the

22     city and the other in Ilidza, itself, it was much quieter on the day that

23     Lord Carrington arrived to try to broker a cease-fire.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  There is another page

25     as well, and Mr. Pejic is informing me that the headquarters were bombed.

Page 9836

 1             Can we have the next page?  Ah, yes, I see it here.  Windows,

 2     yes.

 3             The windows were shattered, there was damage from shells and so

 4     on.

 5             Can this document be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Marked for identification, please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We do have a translation.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But not for the -- it has been our practice, unless

11     one of the participants testified, we mark it for identification, pending

12     that issue will have been resolved.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D920, marked for

14     identification, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're on the subject, peace

16     efforts, that is, I would like to remind you of your own statement from

17     1995.  Or was it 1996?  If you have it in front of you, or maybe I should

18     read it:

19             [In English] "... first visit to Pale.  Outside the

20     Hotel Panorama in Pale, we filmed Karadzic saying, 'If we didn't have

21     hope for political solution, we would already have freed Sarajevo.  We

22     would have taken it because we can.'"

23             [Interpretation] End of quote:

24             [In English] "Easter Sunday morning April the 25th, Karadzic took

25     us around his front-lines at Trebevic.  He invited us to tour his troops.

Page 9837

 1     We saw troops.  They were in uniform, as I remember, with a red tag --

 2     batch of badges.  Most were in JNA uniforms.  There was a cease-fire at

 3     that time, and he wanted to show us how his people were observing it.  We

 4     got the impression Karadzic was fairly popular with his troops.  He said

 5     he could take Sarajevo at any time, but it was all bravado," as you said:

 6             "What they could have done was flattened Sarajevo, as they did

 7     Vukovar, but they didn't.  They believed it was their city."

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Several times you confirmed that we considered Sarajevo to be our

10     own town and that there was not the kind of destruction that had happened

11     in Mostar, Vukovar, and elsewhere; right?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I would [indiscernible] that.  It was a

13     shared city in which you all lived together.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             I don't know whether this statement of Mr. Bell's from 1995 or

16     1996 has been admitted already.  Or should we tender it?

17             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it has been admitted, because we

18     admitted only his amalgamated statements, but I remember having heard

19     that from a video.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would be happy to have that

21     statement admitted, too, because Mr. Bell's memory was quite fresh at the

22     time.

23             JUDGE KWON:  What is the 65 ter number of it?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we're going to find it.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  We don't have it up-loaded, so it doesn't have a

Page 9838

 1     65 ter number for us.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Then it should be added to the 65 ter list, first of

 3     all.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can understand the Office

 5     of the Prosecutor, the fact that they don't like this statement, but it's

 6     invaluable because it was given right after the events concerned.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But as for the contents of this statement, the

 8     witness confirmed, and then it's in the transcript.  And we heard your

 9     voice directly from the video.  But if -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Just a couple of things.

11             I can give you a 65 ter number, although we haven't up-loaded it.

12     It is 09981, and now it's up-loaded.  And that passage that was just

13     discussed is at paragraph 43 of Mr. Bell's consolidated statement.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And you have no objection of admitting that

15     statement of Mr. Bell's?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, no.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  It will be admitted as a Defence

18     exhibit.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  With the Exhibit D921, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only difference is that in this

22     statement of 1996, there is that reference to bravado, but that is not of

23     crucial importance.

24             While we're on the subject of cease-fires and attempts to

25     establish an early peace, 1D2886, could we have a look at that now,

Page 9839

 1     please.  1D2886.  Maybe -- ah, I see it now.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Martin Bell:  The Serbs are continuing their public peace

 4     offensive.  Their leader, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, sent a letter to 'The

 5     Times' this morning with a copy to the BBC, saying that he would

 6     court-martial any of his troops who broke the cease-fire.  'We were

 7     persuaded,' he said, 'to take a significant risk in the hope of peace.'

 8     We will see today if his orders are being obeyed."

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Does this correspond to your knowledge at the time?

11        A.   Yes.  I was not -- I was not given to speculation, Dr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Can this be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Pursuant to that principle, we'll mark it for

15     identification.  Or is it subsumed in another --

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we move on, and I can respond to you on that

17     in a couple of minutes.  It just takes me a little bit of time to check

18     these.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Let's leave it there, and then let's move on.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   You noticed, yourself, that you were not -- that we were not very

23     skillful at media warfare, as it were, but we were always available for

24     contacts, weren't we?

25        A.   With respect, Dr. Karadzic, I think you and your vice-president

Page 9840

 1     were both quite good at media warfare.  You made yourselves available,

 2     you made your case clearly.  It was only later in the conflict that we

 3     lost sight of you.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  However, what I meant was that we had not

 5     sufficiently publicised other things we did.  Do you know, for instance,

 6     that we were establishing a military judiciary at an accelerated pace and

 7     that we were trying persons who had committed crimes against Muslims and

 8     Croats?

 9        A.   I did not know that, and it would have been very helpful to have

10     known that at the time.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, may I advise you on this last

12     video-clip that I just asked for a couple of moments on.  That was

13     1D2886, and that's subsumed within 65 ter 40526C, which is an associated

14     exhibit to paragraph 75 of Mr. Bell's amalgamated statement.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.  Then we don't have to admit it

16     separately, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you remember that a great deal of publicity was given to

20     prisoners of war, and it was that summer, the prisoners of war that were

21     held by the Serbs?

22        A.   As I remember, there was a great deal of publicity given to

23     prisoners on both sides, Dr. Karadzic.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that the prison for prisoners of war

25     at Manjaca was established as far back as the time of the war in Croatia

Page 9841

 1     and that it was established by the JNA?

 2        A.   Well, of course, in the time of the war in Croatia, I was in

 3     Croatia and not in Bosnia.

 4        Q.   Do you agree that in the attacks against the JNA, say, in Samac

 5     and Western Bosnia, all the way up until the 20th of May, that the JNA

 6     had its own prisoners of war and that they were put in the prison in

 7     Manjaca?

 8        A.   I'm not sufficiently well informed about that, Dr. Karadzic, to

 9     be able to help you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we now view a video, 1D2887.  It has to do with prisoners of

12     war.  1D2887.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             "Karadzic:  Yes, we would accept that.  It would help us to quit

15     those prisons for war prisoners."

16             "Reporter:  So you would make speedy access possible, say, by the

17     United Nations Commission on Human Rights?"

18             "Karadzic:  Anything that comes from the UN, we are going to

19     receive and be co-operative on that field."

20             "Reporter:  So if they put people on the ground there tomorrow,

21     those camps would be opened to them?"

22             "Karadzic:  Absolutely.  We are seeking for the possibility to

23     quit all those prisons by changing all war prisoners all for all, but the

24     Muslim side, unfortunately, don't accept it.  But we would accept

25     international help in any kind."

Page 9842

 1             "Reporter:  Well, we're talking here of international and

 2     independent supervision of the camps."

 3             "Karadzic:  Sure, absolutely."

 4             "Reporter:  That sounds like the United Nations running the

 5     camps.  Is that acceptable?"

 6             "Karadzic:  Yes, absolutely acceptable."

 7             "Reporter:  Britain is also talking at the Security Council

 8     collecting evidence, so that those responsible for any abuses can be

 9     caught, tried and punished.  Will you co-operate in that?"

10             "Karadzic:  Absolutely, we will do our own investigation for our

11     own, because we also want to see whether there were some abuse or not."

12             "Reporter:  But if crimes were carried out, if the picture turns

13     out to be that of treatment incompatible with civilised behaviour in the

14     conventions of war, would you co-operate in what would amount to war

15     crimes trials?"

16             "Karadzic:  Absolutely.  If there are any evidence about that, we

17     are going to co-operate and to help if it comes out clearly."

18             "Reporter:  Dr. Karadzic, you made it quite clear that you accept

19     the moves being made by the UN to run the camps, to punish abuses, but to

20     what extent are you able to deliver that?"

21             "Karadzic:  I think we are able to deliver anything.  If some

22     people are disobedient, we are going to arrest them, as we have already

23     done with some disobedient people."

24             "Reporter:  What is the motive for agreeing to these UN moves?

25     Is it to head off the threat of international military intervention,

Page 9843

 1     air-strikes against your people?"

 2             "Karadzic:  No, military intervention means not too much.  It

 3     would not resolve anything.  It would just make this war worse, and it

 4     would make this war lasting longer.  We just co-operate with the UN

 5     because we are right, and we want everything to be settled down proper

 6     way.  And we think that UN is very helpful for us, for Serbs in Croatia

 7     and for Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did we manage to inform you about my order of the 13th of June?

11     It was repeated on the 19th of August it had to do with observing

12     International Humanitarian Law and the Law of War.  Did you know that

13     before this interview and before the intervention of the United Nations

14     and the Red Cross, we had already set that norm?

15        A.   I would be grateful for the date of the interview we've just been

16     seeing.  Do we know when that was?

17        Q.   I believe that this was in September 1992.  We don't have the

18     exact date.  But, at any rate, it was after that that -- actually, do you

19     remember that by the 12th of December, all prisons for prisoners of war

20     were disbanded and that they were taken to third countries, to a very

21     large extent?

22        A.   The difficulty I have with this, Dr. Karadzic, is -- for this is

23     this is mostly the period when I was out of the country because I had

24     been wounded.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was hoping that the distinguished

Page 9844

 1     Ms. Edgerton would help us with the date, because we got that in relation

 2     to your statement, this intercept -- or, no, it's a video-clip.  It was

 3     received in relation to what it was that you were supposed to be speaking

 4     about.  That's the way it seems to me, anyway.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It's your interview, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, V000-3327-10 -- or, rather,

 8     "-A."  It's part of that.  Would that help establish the coordinates,

 9     V000-3327-1?  We received it from the OTP.  It's most certain that we did

10     not get it ourselves.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  If I could help on that, I would, Your Honours,

12     but I can't.  I have no idea of the date of the interview, and our

13     records don't give us any date either.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Bell, you don't remember having heard that

15     interview by Mr. Karadzic at the time?

16             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour, I do not, but that's probably

17     because I was in hospital.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have for a moment D101.

20     Could we please have that in e-court.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   However, on the 13th of June, you were certainly in Bosnia,

23     weren't you?

24        A.   It was -- give me just a second.  I do have -- I do have the

25     records here.  It was about the time I returned.  My successor had

Page 9845

 1     been -- can I say he'd left in a hurry under mortar on the second week in

 2     May, and I had great difficulty in getting back across the airport.

 3     Probably about the 15th or 16th of June.  I have a record here that I did

 4     a report on new fighting in Sarajevo on the 17th, and we normally like,

 5     in our business, to hit the ground running, as we say, so I would have --

 6     I would have filed as quickly as I could, so I doubt if I was there on

 7     the 13th of June.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  However, I'd like to draw your attention to this:

 9     This is a repeated order.  Look at the first sentence, once again:  "I

10     hereby order ..."  And there are four paragraphs here related to

11     observance of humanitarian law, and there is a reference to the first

12     order that was issued in June 1992 that has to do with the treatment of

13     prisoners of war.  So that was before anybody's intervention.  That is

14     why I said that, that perhaps we were not active enough and skillful

15     enough as regards the media.  Otherwise, these orders would have been

16     given great publicity and you would have known about them.  Wouldn't you

17     agree?

18        A.   Dr. Karadzic, absolutely, it would have been very helpful for me

19     at the time of my return, on about the 15th or 16th of June, to have been

20     aware of this order and the many other things you were doing.  I think it

21     was an admirable order.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I'm aware of the fact that we, ourselves,

23     contributed, in part, to our failure in the media.

24             Can we just have the next page, please, in both versions.  The

25     next page:

Page 9846

 1             "The general position:

 2             "The Army and the police in the area of responsibility are being

 3     issued an order to carry out vigorous investigations."

 4             Do you agree that after taking the Serbian municipalities in

 5     Krajina, the Muslim police found documentation and investigation material

 6     with regard to each and every incident when the Muslims and Croats were

 7     victims before the end of the war in 1995, and that to this day

 8     proceedings are underway in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the basis of our files

 9     compiled at the time?

10        A.   Again, I wasn't aware of this, and I wish I had been.  And I do

11     not doubt, Dr. Karadzic, that it reflects credit upon you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             D95, could we have that for a moment, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you remember that our position was that villages, Muslim

16     villages, Croat villages, should hand over their weapons, should not

17     fight, and that we guarantee full freedom to them, as well as safety and

18     security?

19             There is a telegram here that I sent on the 14th of July to the

20     municipalities in Podrinje, that is to say, the eastern part of Bosnia.

21     You, yourself, had realised that it was not under the control of the

22     central authorities.  Could you please focus your attention on this

23     telegram now?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 9847

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  I would like a reference to support Dr. Karadzic's

 2     latest assertion as to what Mr. Bell had said.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think he made reference to Mr. Bell's

 4     statement earlier on.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  He said, at page 94, line 19:

 6             "You, yourself, had realised," referring to the Podrinje, "that

 7     it was not under the control of the central authorities."

 8             So I'd like a reference to that effect.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not a question asking whether he realised it

10     at the time of the situation instead of his making a statement to that

11     effect?  English is not my native --

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm not good at it most days either, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Mr. Bell, can you answer the question?

14     Had you realised that it was not under the control of the central

15     authorities, the eastern part of Bosnia?

16             THE WITNESS:  I think some parts were and some parts weren't.

17     One of the municipalities here is Han Pijesak, which was Serbian --

18     Bosnian Serb heartland throughout, but I've got -- you know, English is

19     my native tongue, and I've got lost down the judicial byways of the last

20     five minutes, and I'm not entirely sure of what I'm being asked about.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Nothing quite so obscure as judicial byways.

22             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic, on this

23     document?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I'd like to ask you:  Do you know that this really happened this

Page 9848

 1     way at Romanija, and around Han Pijesak, and around Rogatica, there were

 2     villages that surrendered their weapons and remained safe until the end

 3     of the war?

 4        A.   I'm very pleased to hear that, Dr. Karadzic.  I think the record

 5     suggests that something other happened, for instance, in Foca.  Or is it

 6     in Foca that you met resistance, perhaps?

 7        Q.   Well, I'm actually talking about villages closer to the

 8     Drina River, villages that had surrendered their weapons.  And during our

 9     interview, it was said that we cannot find a single Serbian village in

10     Muslim territory which meant the year 1995 safe; whereas we can find a

11     lot of small towns, hamlets and villages that were Muslim populated in

12     Serb territory, such as Janja, Bosanski Dubocac, Bosanski Kobas, and then

13     other villages that surrendered their weapons that did remain safe in

14     Serb territory?

15        A.   Well, I'm very gratified to hear that.  We -- for various

16     logistical reasons and because of the heavy fighting in and around

17     Sarajevo, we were not able to return to the Drina Valley for a long time.

18     I certainly do remember a Serb village in Central Bosnia, close to the

19     confrontation line between Muslims and Croats, from which the Serbs had

20     fled entirely, and that supports your general thesis here.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I'm trying to find your statement, or was it perhaps

22     something you said during our discussion, where you said that Karadzic or

23     the central authorities does not have enough control in Eastern Bosnia,

24     but let me read something you said during your interview:

25             [In English] "... a sense of history or mission.  He was not a

Page 9849

 1     man with hatred in his heart.  He would be very surprised -- I would be

 2     very surprised if Dr. Karadzic ordered crimes or shooting."

 3             [Interpretation] Is that your position?

 4        A.   I think the phrase about hatred in his heart came from an

 5     interview with Nermin Tulic in Sarajevo, who is a very distinguished

 6     Shakespearean actor, and he had been taught by Dr. Koljevic.  And he lost

 7     both his legs in a mortar attack, and what he later told me, that what

 8     troubled him was not so much his incapacity for life but he's got

 9     something worse than cancer, he said, he had hatred in his heart to those

10     who had done that.

11             As far as the situation in the Drina Valley is concerned,

12     certainly in the early days all regular military forces who were later to

13     engage in the war were in the process of organising themselves, and any

14     central commands and control was extremely fragmentary, if it existed at

15     all.

16             And if I could just add, Your Honours, my view of the war from

17     the start was it was a war among the people, being reported from among

18     the people.  I was down there in the middle of them from start to finish.

19     And whether any of the leaders had hatred in their hearts is for them to

20     decide.  I was concerned with effects from start to finish.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that we refreshed our memory of the

22     visit by an ITN crew to Trnopolje in Republika Srpska?  Do you remember

23     that?

24        A.   Yes, we did.  And, of course, I was not there, but they were, but

25     I'm very well aware of the incident and the affect that it had.

Page 9850

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that I offered that crew

 2     transportation by a government plane and gave them free access to

 3     Republika Srpska and any location in Republika Srpska they wanted to go?

 4        A.   Yes.  My friends at ITN have confirmed that to me.

 5        Q.   Do you remember there was some talk among them that they had

 6     found nothing, they didn't have a story, and then they created a story

 7     out of the material they had, a story that ended up doing us a very bad

 8     turn?

 9        A.   It was certainly a story that went 'round the world.  I know it

10     was -- it was very controversial.  I actually -- when I was a member of

11     Parliament, I pleaded with the editor of ITN not to sue the magazine that

12     printed certain allegations.

13             As for the accuracy of the report, not being there, and I'm not

14     really able to comment on it, sir.

15        Q.   Do you recall that somebody from the ITN, Penny Marshal or

16     someone else, told you that they did not have a story and that they made

17     one out of the material they had shot?

18        A.   No, that is not -- I forget who told me this, but it was not

19     that.  It was that it was only when they got back to their hotel, and

20     looked at their footage and their notes, that they realised what they

21     had.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you believe, and we will try to show that here,

23     that that crew entered a compound surrounded by barbed wire, and that's

24     how they photographed refugees in Trnopolje camp, as if they, the

25     refugees, were surrounded by barbed wire, rather than the camera, thus

Page 9851

 1     creating the illusion that we were holding them prisoners?  Was that the

 2     enterprise of this magazine called "Living Marxism," an attempt to refute

 3     the ITN report?

 4        A.   The article by Thomas Deichmann in "Living Marxism" was certainly

 5     an attempt to refute the ITN report.  I think it's for you to show and

 6     make your case.  If I had been there, I could have been helpful.  And if

 7     I'd done that report, you'd, no doubt, have me pinned against the witness

 8     box.  But I can't really speculate about something second-hand, about

 9     something that occurred when I wasn't there.

10        Q.   I'm, again, on the verge of self-criticism, in the sense that we

11     were not very good at public relations, but I hope you were aware that we

12     were opening up completely to the international media and that is

13     precisely how the liberation of most of POWs came about by the end of

14     December.

15             Now I'd like to show 1D2888, a video-clip.

16             Do you agree that we gave access both to the Red Cross and

17     foreign media and foreign reporters, complete access anywhere except, of

18     course, the front-lines?

19        A.   And until August 1994, obviously.  But when incidents happened

20     like that ITN report, I think you tended to close up and say, All the

21     foreign press is against us, which had unfortunate consequences, because

22     I was neither for you, nor against you.  I just wanted access to find

23     things out, and I had -- and I'm not making any complaints about the

24     access I was granted up until October -- August 1994.

25        Q.   In your book, on page 100:

Page 9852

 1             [In English] "... light, the Serbs were in the grip of extreme

 2     spy-mania, and at their roadblocks journalists were doubly suspect for

 3     being foreigners - therefore, historically anti-Serbs - and for

 4     travelling from the other side of lines."

 5             [Interpretation] Do you agree that these searches and suspicions

 6     were not insolence on their part; it was, as you say, fear and misgivings

 7     that spies -- that spy work is going on, that spies are at large?

 8        A.   I have absolutely no hard feelings about this at all.  In a war

 9     zone, I expect to be stopped, I expect to be searched.  I was a little

10     bit surprised on one occasion when my -- one of your roadblocks, we were

11     stopped, and everything went through, and my Italian producer had a --

12     had a cuddly toy, a teddy bear, which then had its -- was ripped in two

13     by a bayonet to make sure it wasn't hiding anything.  I think the --

14     I think the searches, especially Rogatica, were probably a little bit

15     over the top.  But in principle, I expect to be -- I expect to be

16     stopped, I expect to be searched.  And, Dr. Karadzic, after all these

17     years, no hard feelings.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And as a psychiatrist, I wanted to

19     make a distinction between insolence and heavy-handedness and fear, and a

20     conviction that may arise out of that fear.

21             Can we now play this video.  This is a visit by Lord Ashdown, who

22     was not a lord then, to Sarajevo, one of the prisons in Sarajevo.  He had

23     also visited Manjaca, but I did not see that.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "Reporter:  The Bosnian Serbs had challenged him to come and see

Page 9853

 1     things from their perspective, and Mr. Ashdown took up the challenge,

 2     which began with an extremely unpleasant hour-long helicopter journey.

 3     To avoid fire from the ground, the aircraft flew fast and low, a taste of

 4     war-time conditions for Mr. Ashdown and those accompanying him.  The

 5     destination was Pale, the former skiing resort near Sarajevo, where the

 6     Bosnian Serbs have a military strong-hold.  There, Mr. Ashdown met and

 7     discussed his programme with the man who'd invited him, the Bosnian Serb

 8     leader, Radovan Karadzic.

 9             "Karadzic:  And in Sarajevo, there would be no single fight."

10             "Reporter:  The visit got underway soon afterwards at

11     Kula Prison Camp, on the outskirts of Sarajevo.  Mr. Ashdown was able to

12     talk freely to the inmates, Muslims who said their life was not tough

13     here, but they were not beaten.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   Did you know about this prison, Kula, near Sarajevo, and that it

16     used to be a prison for a long time before the war?

17        A.   I'd heard about it, but I did not visit it in person.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have time for an extension

19     today?

20             JUDGE KWON:  It's time to conclude for today.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this video-clip be admitted?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Just to note on the transcript, it shows

23     Martin Bell as being the speaker on the video, and that's not the case.

24             THE WITNESS:  I can tell you who the speaker was, if it's of any

25     help, Your Honour.  It's another correspondent called Justin Webb.

Page 9854

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  But having said that, you have no

 2     objection?

 3             We'll admit it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D922, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bell, we'll adjourn for today and resume

 6     tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of

10                           December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.