Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9855

 1                           Wednesday, 15 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Bell.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, sir.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

10     cross-examination.

11                           WITNESS:  MARTIN BELL [Resumed]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Good morning to you all.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bell.

16        A.   Good morning, sir.

17        Q.   With your leave, I would like to try to put some simplified

18     questions, and I hope that yes-or-no answers would be possible,

19     therefore.  However, if ever you feel the need to say a bit more, in line

20     with your talents as a writer, please feel free to do so.

21             [In English] Would you agree?

22        A.   I will do my best, Dr. Karadzic.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yesterday, you mentioned that at the

24     beginning of the war, criminal elements came to the fore and took

25     advantage of the situation as it was.  Were you referring to all three

Page 9856

 1     sides when you said that?

 2        A.   Yes, I was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the first barricades in Sarajevo in

 4     the beginning of March were erected not because of the referendum, but

 5     because a member of a Serbian wedding party at Bascarsija was killed?  It

 6     was the father of the groom.

 7        A.   I'm aware of that incident.  The first -- the first barricade

 8     that I came across was near what is now the Office of the

 9     High Representative.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If you remember, it wasn't the Serbs who were

11     hindering the referendum.  As a matter of fact, it was carried out even

12     in communities where Serbs accounted for 80 or 90 per cent of the

13     population.

14        A.   The first funeral that I attended was, indeed, the funeral of the

15     Serb killed in that incident.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you manage to find out then that Ramiz Delalic,

17     Celo, the murderer of that member of the wedding party, spoke on

18     television immediately after that, bragging about what he had done?

19        A.   I was not aware of that, Dr. Karadzic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Agreeing with you on criminals being on all three

21     sides, I would like to ask you whether you had information to the effect

22     that some criminals in Sarajevo became generals and that the authorities

23     dealt with them only in the autumn of 1993, like Musan Topalovic, Caco,

24     commander of the 9th Brigade, Ismet Bajramovic, Celo, Ramiz Delalic,

25     Celo, Juka Prazina, also a criminal who was also a general; were you

Page 9857

 1     aware of that group of prominent criminals who had big military units of

 2     their own?

 3        A.   The one I knew personally was Juka Prazina.  I was not aware he

 4     was a general.  In fact, he defected to, as I remember, to the HVO, and I

 5     last saw him fighting for the HVO in Mostar.

 6        Q.   That's right.  However, for a year, he fought in Sarajevo.  Later

 7     on, he was liquidated in Belgium.  Do you remember that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do, Dr. Karadzic.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You reported about ethnic strife in Bosanski Brod on

10     the 4th of March.  Actually, the conflicts occurred on the 3rd of March

11     and then on the 4th of March in Bosanski Brod, where the Serbs were a

12     considerable minority and where they were attacked.  Do you remember the

13     massacre on the 25th and the 26th of March in Sijekovac, near

14     Bosanski Brod?

15        A.   I was not in Bosanski Brod at the time, Dr. Karadzic.

16        Q.   Yes.  But somehow I have 0029-4185 up to 4284.  That's an

17     ERN number, actually.  I have this information.  Were you aware of this

18     ethnic strife in Bosanski Brod?

19        A.   According to my notes, Dr. Karadzic, I was not in Bosnia between

20     March the 5th and April the 6th, 1992.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I understood what this is.  This is a review of

22     BBC reports, so I imagine it wasn't you, but somebody else.  Thank you.

23             I noticed in your statements that you were aware of different

24     alliances in this war among these three peoples.  For example, you knew

25     that Serbs and Croats co-operated between Kiseljak and Ilidza, between

Page 9858

 1     Vares and the neighbouring municipalities, and Zepce and Teslic, and

 2     sometimes even around Mostar, whereas elsewhere they were fighting each

 3     other.  Do you agree that this is yet further proof of the looseness of a

 4     central command?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I please have a reference to the following:

 8     At page 3, line 22, Dr. Karadzic says:

 9             "I noticed in your statements that you were aware of different

10     alliances in this war among these three peoples ..."

11             And then goes on to name a number of specific locations.  Could I

12     please have a reference in that regard?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if Mr. Bell does not readily

16     remember that, I'm going to drop it altogether.  Perhaps I could find a

17     reference, nevertheless.  Just a moment, please.

18             Here it is.  Dragomir Milosevic, the testimony there, transcript

19     on the 27th of April, 2007.  5282 is the page number.  That he heard

20     about these alliances between Serbs and Croats during the war, then the

21     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croats in Central Bosnia, and so on and so

22     forth.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is that right, Mr. Bell?

25        A.   Yes, I was aware of these -- of these improvised alliances.  And

Page 9859

 1     in answer to your question, I would say that local commanders were given

 2     considerable latitude, especially in the early months of the war.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  May I note that on page 5282, there is absolutely

 6     nothing citing the specific locations that Dr. Karadzic has mentioned in

 7     his question.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is possible that these locations

10     were not mentioned in that particular place, but I'm sure that Mr. Bell

11     will remember that it wasn't a general thing throughout the territory; if

12     they were allies in one location, that they were allies throughout

13     Bosnia.  It was more of a local thing.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you agree with that, Mr. Bell, that Serbs and Croats waged war

16     in one place and were allies in another place?

17        A.   I think I would cite the case of Vares, where, so far as I know,

18     there was no fighting throughout the entire war.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder whether, Mr. Bell, you are in the position

20     to confirm about the other places.  It has gone now, but he mentioned

21     Zepce and Teslic.

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I was aware of some of these, but not

23     others.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9860

 1        Q.   You noted that from time to time, there was intensive urban

 2     fighting, especially in the beginning, from street to street, practically

 3     for every house, as it were?

 4        A.   Yes, that was my experience.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour.  These questions, Your Honour, are so

 6     vague as to time and place that I would ask for some measure of

 7     clarification.  We don't know if this is meant to refer to any particular

 8     location in the former Yugoslavia, let alone what year.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton, I'm sure Dr. Karadzic is trying to

10     paint a picture of a situation which happened as a matter of generality,

11     and I'm sure that Mr. Bell is more than capable of dealing with that, if

12     he doesn't agree with that as a general proposition.

13             JUDGE KWON:  But having said that, Mr. Karadzic, just general

14     comments do not help us much.  Be specific as much as possible.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             My intention was to play a video, a video-clip.

17             As for close observation, as far as the Serbs are concerned,

18     Mr. Bell knew the most about Sarajevo, so I thought that it went without

19     saying that we were talking about Sarajevo.

20             1D2809, could we have that, please.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             "In the last few days, some of the firing in Sarajevo has been

23     directed for the first time at United Nations forces.  Last Thursday

24     night, one of their billets, the Marsal Tito Barracks, took 34 mortar

25     rounds.  The UN has also been hampered, it's said, by some shambolic

Page 9861

 1     co-ordination.  But as the fires continue to burn and the violence

 2     escalates, have the people of Bosnia and beyond become victims of a

 3     similar shambles between the international bodies charged with keeping

 4     the peace in Europe?"

 5             "... charged with keeping the peace in Europe?"

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Am I right if I say that you had observed and reported that there

 8     was fire on all sides and that it was mainly aimed at the front-line,

 9     itself; military facilities, as we can see here?

10        A.   Dr. Karadzic, some of it was certainly aimed at military

11     facilities.  And I would imagine the fire we saw there, which I saw this

12     every night for four months, was targeted on front-line positions.  But

13     also there were -- there were snipers and mortars used at -- whether or

14     not civilians were targeted, civilians were certainly hit, and to that

15     extent the firing was indiscriminate.

16        Q.   In your statement of 1995 and 1996, on page 7, and later on in

17     paragraph 6, and actually later in your testimony in the Perisic and

18     Milosevic cases, you confirmed that this fighting was house by house,

19     street by street, and it was typical urban fighting; right?

20        A.   I was referring in that testimony to the fighting in the early

21     weeks of the war, when the front-lines were being -- when the lines of

22     confrontation were being established.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, you told us that there were days when more

24     fire was going out of town rather than coming into town.  Now I would

25     like us to look at the direction of this fire to see whether it was clear

Page 9862

 1     that heavy weapons were being fired from town.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we just play a tiny little bit?

 3     Do you have this video?  Let's go ahead.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you agree that this fire, that is actually going up, is aimed

 6     at the positions of the Serbs in Trebevic and is coming from town?

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE WITNESS:  That fire appears to be aimed in that direction,

 9     yes.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   Do you agree that it would have been a good thing if the

12     representatives of the international community and the media knew about

13     the deployment of units and military infrastructure in general in town?

14     In that case, perhaps assessments regarding selectiveness and

15     non-selectiveness would have been more accurate.

16        A.   Dr. Karadzic, I'm unaware of the date of the video you have just

17     shown.  And you will know that there was a period when, during much of

18     May and early June, when there was no United Nations presence in Sarajevo

19     at all.  They left.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             We're going to call up a document that has already been admitted.

22     Actually, can we have the video-clip admitted now?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Have we got the date of this video, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we got this along with the

25     material from Mr. Bell, and it's BBC reporting, so I thought -- I'm going

Page 9863

 1     to get a number now.  V000-3327A.  I think that we played part of it

 2     yesterday.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  In any event, Mr. Karadzic, as a matter of

 4     principle, we'll mark this video for identification until we get the

 5     transcription of this video.  So in due course, you are to provide us

 6     with the date of this video as well.

 7             This will be marked for identification as the next exhibit.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 9     Exhibit D923, marked for identification pending further transcription and

10     date of the clip.  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We're going to provide the time

12     reference, too.

13             D339, could we have that now, please.  Let us just cast a glance

14     at this.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Actually, we establish here, Mr. Bell, that the Muslims concealed

17     their weaponry from the UN rather skillfully.  Did they allow you access

18     to their heavy weapons in town?  Were you aware of the deployment of

19     their heavy weapons in town?

20        A.   I was aware that they had at least one tank in a tunnel.

21     Occasionally, we would come across their mortar positions, and it became

22     a very sensitive issue with their field security, so that if we showed

23     their mortars firing, we might suffer the consequences.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please have a look at this document of the

25     1st Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, their army.

Page 9864

 1     The date is the 16th of February, 1993.  A mixed artillery/rocket brigade

 2     is being disbanded, and the equipment is being re-deployed.  Mortar

 3     battery, 120 millimetres, with all personnel and technical resources, it

 4     is being deployed in the 3rd Motorised Brigade.  Then the

 5     Howitzer Brigade, 105 millimetres, with all personnel and equipment, is

 6     being transferred to a newly formed 1st Motorised Brigade.  Then a

 7     howitzer battery of 122 millimetres, self-propelled battery,

 8     122 millimetres.  So obviously they managed to conceal this weaponry of

 9     theirs rather successfully in town.  Do you agree with that?

10        A.   We never doubted, Dr. Karadzic, that they had some heavy weapons,

11     but the preponderance of advantage in heavy weapons was, from start to

12     finish, always with the Bosnian Serbs.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We might agree on that, but do you remember that part

14     of this Serb weaponry had to be oriented towards the external ring that

15     was over 200 kilometres facing Zenica, Tuzla and so on?  Do you agree

16     that there were lines there as well, front-lines, and that part of our

17     weapons had to be there?

18        A.   There is no doubt, Dr. Karadzic, that around Sarajevo you were

19     stretched over a double confrontation line.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Could I now please have 1D1927 in e-court.  1D1927.  This is a

22     document from 1993.

23             Can we move on to page 20.  Let us see what the UN knew about the

24     deployment of Serb and Muslim heavy weapons.  Let us look at paragraph A

25     here:

Page 9865

 1             "All heavy weapons will be withdrawn to designated locations ..."

 2             And here they are:  Mojmilo, Dobrinja, under Muslim control.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you agree?  Then Lukavica, Gornji Kotorac under Serb control;

 5     Vojkovici in Serb hands; Hrasnica, Muslim; Sokolovic Kolonija, Muslim;

 6     Butmir, Muslim; Ilidza, Serb; Otes, Serb at the time; Stup, Croatian;

 7     Nedzarici, Serbian.  Do you remember these locations?

 8        A.   Yes, I remember most of them.  It's clear the United Nations was

 9     trying -- was attempting an even-handed agreement.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that Mojmilo was a dominant hill in

11     the hands of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  It dominated over Lukavica,

12     Dobrinja and Ilidza.  Remember Mojmilo Hill?

13        A.   Yes, of course, Dr. Karadzic.  I remember going there after

14     French UN armour was seized outside Lukavica, and we actually -- we were

15     escorted up to the top of the hill, and we could look down from there and

16     see Lukavica and the French vehicles.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can this UN report be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

21     Exhibit D924.  Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23        Q.   You were aware of the fact that the intensity of fighting was not

24     the same all the time.  There were lulls in the fire as well, and then we

25     tried to inform the international public of what was happening.  Or,

Page 9866

 1     rather, did you try to say why there was intensive fighting from time to

 2     time?  I'm referring to military and political contexts at the same time.

 3        A.   Dr. Karadzic, I remember reporting lulls in the winter of 1993 to

 4     1994 and the winter of 1994 to 1995, including a cease-fire at one time.

 5     I remember, in the early summer of 1995, an attack up-hill by units of

 6     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in an attempt to take a section of the

 7     confrontation line, which they briefly succeeded in doing, and that was

 8     one of those days when I would judge there was more fire coming out of

 9     the city than going into it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  We'll deal with the political contexts later, but

11     let's turn now to military context.

12             Do you recall that in June 1992, at the time of the negotiations

13     in Geneva, there was an offensive by Muslim forces in Sarajevo, and it

14     was especially intensive as of 8th June?

15        A.   Dr. Karadzic, as I testified yesterday, the BBC, having fled in

16     the second week in May, was not there on the 7th or 8th of June, and I

17     had difficulty getting back in.  It must have been about the 15th or

18     16th.  We had to face -- we had to face fire crossing the -- we drove

19     across from Lukavica, and we had to face fire crossing the airport

20     runway.

21        Q.   I think this is paragraph 71 in your amalgamated statement.

22     You're right, it was not the 1st of June.  It was just June 1992:

23             [In English] "I watched a video which I am advised is number

24     V000-0800," and so on, "on the situation in Sarajevo in late June 1992.

25     In this clip, I reported under constant bombardment of the city, since

Page 9867

 1     the United Nations had withdrawn from the airport."

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 3             Mr. Bell, do you have your statement before you?

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.

 6             Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Looking at the statement and the reporting of Mr. Bell, I

 9     identified about six periods where BBC reported about intensified

10     fighting, and I would just like to place them into the context of

11     offensives, see if they coincided with offensives.

12             Let's look at paragraph 71, for example.  It deals with

13     June 1992; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at P998.

16             Can the previous document be admitted?  Is it already in

17     evidence?

18             Then P998.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Just one sentence:

21             "The enemy launched an all-out offensive, engaging his forces on

22     the following axes:"

23             And then the axes are enumerated, with the intention of lifting

24     the blockade of Sarajevo.  Did this offensive that you observed have a

25     military context, and was it an offensive by the BH Army?

Page 9868

 1        A.   Dr. Karadzic, there was more than one day of heavy fighting

 2     between mid and late June.  I had, of course, no access to the internal

 3     documents of either side's high command.  What I was particularly

 4     referring to in paragraph 71 was some images that were shown in this

 5     court yesterday of a succession of mortars exploding in the center of the

 6     city of Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   May I ask you to look at para 4.  In English, it should be the

 8     next page.

 9             Do you see the objective of operations?  I think it's somewhere

10     in the middle of this paragraph.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, in relation to his statement, in

12     particular in relation to 71, I think, speaking for myself, we had got

13     everything we can get from him.  There's no further point showing him the

14     exhibit that has been already admitted.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I just wanted to see if

16     this was shooting at random or it was in the context of an offensive,

17     whereas the Serbs did not have any interest in launching an offensive, no

18     reason.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Paragraph 54, Mr. Bell, again relates your observations of

21     quieter periods in winters and deteriorations during the summers between

22     1992 and 1995; do you agree?

23        A.   Yes, especially, Your Honours, the summers of 1992 and 1995.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I now call up D192 to see what

25     was going on in the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Izetbegovic's

Page 9869

 1     Presidency, on the 17th of June, 1992.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This is a confirmation from the Presidency of Bosnia and

 4     Herzegovina of the scope of their offensive operations at the time when

 5     you observed this intensive fighting.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 6 in Serbian.  I

 7     believe it's the page 6 in English.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  On page 1, first page.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only a part of it has been

10     translated, so let's leave it there.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Under 2:

13             "Disposition and status of the forces of Territorial Defence."

14             These were their forces before the army was established.  The

15     last paragraph in English:

16             "Disposition and status of TO forces in Sarajevo region:"

17             And then it enumerates:

18             "The Territorial Defence of the Sarajevo region is composed of

19     the following:  Regional headquarters ..."

20             Next page in English.

21             "... two mortar batteries, 120 millimetres, with 12 weapons;

22     105-millimetre howitzer battery with five weapons; artillery unit,

23     122 millimetres ..."

24             And so on:

25             "... 500 independent platoons, 16 headquarters, 16 TO companies,

Page 9870

 1     and around 500 independent units ..."

 2             Is this a considerable force that they managed to conceal both

 3     from the United Nations and the media?

 4        A.   It is a considerable force.  We were, of course, aware of

 5     military installations and units in the city and near the confrontation

 6     lines.  But, of course, all these documents are entirely new to me

 7     because you will not be surprised to hear that the high commands did not

 8     share their secrets with us on the ground.  All we could do was report

 9     what we saw and what we knew from various vantage points in and around

10     the city.

11        Q.   These are the words of Sefer Halilovic, who is briefing his

12     supreme command about the potentials they dispose of.

13             Can we just see page 12, and let's leave the same page in

14     English:

15             "In the region of Sarajevo, the city of Sarajevo will be defended

16     and active operations outside town and inside the town will be carried

17     out to lift the blockade on the following axes:  Nova Grad, Ilidza,

18     Blazuj, Kiseljak, and Centar-Vogosca, Ilijas, Visoko, whereas in the

19     region of Gorazde, the road will be deblocked in the Drina River Valley."

20             This is their own document from June.

21             Do you agree now that all these battles, when placed in this

22     context, and bearing in mind their actual potential, the fighting could

23     be seen from an entirely different perspective?

24        A.   It might help, Your Honours, if I just confine myself to what I

25     know.

Page 9871

 1             It was always clear to me that there would be attempts by the

 2     forces of the government to try and break the siege, both from inside and

 3     from outside.  They came nearest to doing it in the summer of 1995.  From

 4     my point of view, there were almost two wars going on.  One was a war

 5     between the armed forces of either side based around the confrontation

 6     lines.  The other manifested itself in bombardments of a crowded city

 7     with a lot of civilians in it.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see P1000.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And while we're waiting:  Do you agree that one should know, if a

11     shell is headed for a settlement, whether a mobile mortar is located

12     there or perhaps another piece of military infrastructure?  Do you agree

13     that it would be of assistance to know whether fire is indiscriminate or

14     not?

15        A.   Well, I know, from my own perspective, I was hit by a mortar

16     shell at the back of the Tito Barracks, where there were no heavy weapons

17     or even light weapons anywhere around me at the time.

18             Perhaps I could refer Your Honours again to the film that was

19     shown yesterday of the sniping of the people carrying water.  There were

20     no weapons around there either.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll come to that.

22             Can we now see the next page.  This is the 26th of June, 1992.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   The Command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps orders certain things

25     to its subordinate brigades.  May I kindly ask you to look at number 9.

Page 9872

 1     It says:

 2             "Organise impeccably the firing system and co-ordinate it with

 3     obstacles.  Fire to be opened only on military targets."

 4             The English translation is not so good.  It should be "must"

 5     instead of "should," because the Serbian is clearly imperative:

 6             "Organise and open fire only on military targets."

 7             Now, I understand, Mr. Bell, that they did not share their

 8     secrets with you, but do you recall that there were mortars mounted on

 9     vehicles, and they moved around the city and opened fire from various

10     locations?

11        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I saw that for myself.

12             Can I -- I would add, though, that if the date of that document,

13     and it's a commendable -- paragraph 9 is a commendable order.  The date

14     of that document is the same date that I record in my notes of the time

15     exceptional amount of activity -- sniping activity 'round what we knew as

16     Sniper's Corner.  In fact, I did a report about it on that day.

17        Q.   I noted in your statement from 1995 and 1996 that you, and

18     probably the others, relied on their common sense to determine who might

19     be shooting.

20        A.   I would say, Dr. Karadzic, that common sense should play a part

21     in journalism.

22        Q.   Do you agree that in our kind of civil war, common sense took a

23     slightly different form?

24        A.   I would be fascinated to know what form that was, Dr. Karadzic.

25        Q.   I just wanted to say that if we were to follow common sense, that

Page 9873

 1     would lead us to believe that nobody would shoot at themselves ever.

 2        A.   Yeah, I would accept that.

 3        Q.   However, we knew that sides were opening fire on their own.  I

 4     hope mine did not do that, because they would have no benefit to derive

 5     from that, but the adversary certainly did shoot on their own.

 6             Let me just show one document.  That's 1D2485.  Sorry, it already

 7     has a D number.  That's D681.  This was sent to General Rose on

 8     27 October 1994.

 9             Can we see the next page.

10             Flag B and then the last:

11             [In English] "All evidence and corroboration by Bosnian officials

12     indicate that shots came from Bosnian-held territory."

13             [Interpretation] Their side opened fire at their own tram, and

14     you will see, on one of the following pages, what the motivation for that

15     was.

16             Do you agree that this is a UN report?

17        A.   It appears to be a UN report, yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Can we see D680.  There's no Serbian version.  We don't need

20     to -- the English version will suffice.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is a UN report for 9 September 1994.  The location is

23     Livanjska Street.  Two 82-millimetre mortar shells.

24             Can we see the next page, please.

25             The angle of descent estimated at 70 to 75 degrees.

Page 9874

 1             Can we turn the page to see the conclusion:

 2             [In English] "It is possible to conclude that the most suspected

 3     area are under the control of BiH.

 4             "To fire from BSA positions and from the same direction (between

 5     12 and 16 mils), the distance should be at least 3.700 metres.  The angle

 6     of descent in that case should be less than 60 degrees."

 7             [Interpretation] So this is one more example where the

 8     United Nations conclude that this shell landed on Bosnian territory, on

 9     Muslim territory, from Muslim territory.  This knowledge that was

10     available to the United Nations, was it shared with the media?

11        A.   The one occasion, Dr. Karadzic, when I can remember it was shared

12     with us was when General MacKenzie, just before he left, gave a news

13     conference to the Bosnian press, in which he said that it would be

14     helpful if both sides stopped attacking their own people.  Clearly, this

15     document is one that the Court will have to take account of.  I think

16     I can only help the Court, Your Honours, if I confine myself to what I

17     know about.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, that's what I'm telling you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I will not show the document,

20     because I believe it falls under Rule 70.

21             Let me just say that the bread queue explosion on the

22     27th of May, 1992, was also estimated to have been caused from the Muslim

23     side.

24             Let me now come back to one point --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 9875

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  That's Dr. Karadzic giving evidence, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's D -- just a moment.  D230.  We

 4     would have to go into private session to show this document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  You said you wouldn't show this document.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's in evidence,

 7     Your Honours.  But I believe it falls under Rule 70, so I would not like

 8     to have it broadcast.  If we can, we should go into private session for a

 9     moment.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we carry on in public session without

11     broadcasting it?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  The notation -- I can only go on the basis of the

13     notations I have in e-court with respect to this document, and the

14     notation reads that it is, at the direction of the provider, to be used

15     in private session, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll go into private session.

17             But, Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Bell made it clear that he cannot testify

18     on what he did not know at the time, and I doubt the point of this

19     exercise.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I appreciate that,

21     but I should like to look, together with this very important witness, at

22     the kind of situation we were dealing with, what kind of tricks were

23     being used, and not to turn these tricks into facts.  I also wish to say

24     that the media was at difficulty to find out the whole truth about

25     Sarajevo.

Page 9876

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We are still in open session.

 2             You can put your case to the witness and can hear his opinion,

 3     and then you can make argument later on, relying on this evidence.

 4             But we go into private session to see that document.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9877

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Would you agree that the bombing of Sarajevo, or shooting, at the

15     time important people were visiting could certainly not have been in the

16     interests of the Serbs, it could only be to their detriment?

17        A.   My experience of war, Dr. Karadzic, which is considerable, is

18     that it's very hard to divine the intentions of people who mount

19     offensives, and there can be a miscalculation of the political effect.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Could we now see 1D2889, a video.  2889.

22             This was 2890.  We need 2889.  Thank you.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             "... an official here, Yasushi Akashi, was back in Sarajevo,

25     trying to restart the totally blocked peace process.  He had been at the

Page 9878

 1     Bosnian Presidency 20 minutes when the Serbs, if it was the Serbs, gave

 2     him their answer."

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "A wire-guided anti-tank missile hit and badly damaged an office

 6     at the back of the building.  French UN troops deployed immediately, but

 7     the attack occurred on a day when the United Nations was publicly

 8     avoiding a confrontation with the Serbs, for which it is not prepared.

 9     The UN here is in a state of crisis."

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   So there was this suspicion that perhaps it wasn't the Serbs,

12     because that would have considerably worsened the political position of

13     the Serbs; would you agree?

14        A.   Dr. Karadzic, you'll be aware I chose my words with great care,

15     because I always tried to report only what I knew about.  And I couldn't

16     be a hundred per cent sure that that came from your territory, so I said

17     "the Serbs, if it was the Serbs," and I think that was a fair

18     reservation, entering the benefit of the doubt into the calculation.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can this video-clip be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  What's the number of this clip again?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2889.  We are going to provide the

23     time references.

24             JUDGE KWON:  It was 1D2889?

25             MS. EDGERTON:  And it's actually already been admitted as P1679,

Page 9879

 1     I'm advised, through General Rose, as an associated exhibit to his

 2     written evidence.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now just have a look at

 5     two sentences from D217.  That is General MacKenzie's book.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Bell, what I wish to do here is to establish whether there

 8     were certain patterns involved in war trickery and ruses that were aimed

 9     at vilifying the other side.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I'm actually asking for D217.

11     Page 16 in this document, please.  That is Chapter 18.

12             My counting must have been wrong.  It's the next page.

13             I would like to draw your attention to the 26th of May -- or,

14     rather, the 6th of May.  General MacKenzie says that he spent the day

15     with Goulding, and then they took a walk with President Izetbegovic.

16             Can we have the next page now, please.

17             So they walked with Izetbegovic, and they came under modest fire

18     in the middle of the old city; infantry fire, at that.  That indicated

19     that this was yet another one of the tricks that was supposed to put the

20     Serbs in a bad light.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Does this sound familiar to you?  Or, rather, do you understand

23     this, that there was this game of vilifying the other side, in this case

24     the Serb side?

25        A.   I think each side had an interest in the world community taking a

Page 9880

 1     critical view of the other side.  I do remember General MacKenzie, whom I

 2     knew extremely well.  I was with him on a number of occasions when

 3     shooting would start from where we knew not, and he would say, It's

 4     show-time.  And I think he's doing it again here in his book.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We believe that that secret directive of

 6     Hasan Efendic that we displayed yesterday was -- actually, it was from

 7     the end of April, wasn't it?  It was a secret declaration of war against

 8     the JNA and the Bosnian Serbs.  Do you remember that the Muslim

 9     Presidency, on the 20th of June, declared war on the Bosnian Serbs as

10     well as Serbian Montenegro?

11        A.   On the 20th of June, I was reporting a United Nations withdrawal

12     from the airport, Dr. Karadzic.

13        Q.   Let us shed more light on these patterns.  You were fully aware

14     of that.  In paragraph 79 of your statement, you say -- it has to do with

15     August 1992:

16             [In English] "It was one of the patterns of the course of the war

17     that the fighting would intensify before a peace conference, as both

18     sides tried to improve their positions on the ground."

19             [Interpretation] Do you agree that in addition to this military

20     reason, there was this propaganda-related reason, and that we did have

21     problems in the political field because of these tricks?

22        A.   Dr. Karadzic, I think that all wars are wars not only of weapons,

23     but of words and images too.  This applies especially to wars among the

24     people, which this one was, and a military commander will try and seize

25     the -- seize the narrative; not necessarily in misleading the public,

Page 9881

 1     but, rather, in making it clear what he's trying to do and why he's

 2     trying to do it.  I cannot, in all my wars, think of a war in which the

 3     words and images were more decisive than in this one.

 4             At the same time, one reason that there would be an up-surge in

 5     the fighting before a conference, as I made clear in my statement,

 6     paragraph 79, was that if at any -- and you all had your eyes on the maps

 7     all the time -- that if there ever were a final settlement with the

 8     status quo, then the more you could improve your position on the ground,

 9     and this applies to both sides, the better.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we now have a look at 65 ter 1600.  65 ter number is 1600.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Also admitted as D235.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You're right.

14             At the very beginning, it says -- I'm not sure whether the

15     English version is the same thing.  Oh, yes, it is, but the next one,

16     please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   The 3rd of August, 1992.  As you recall, the

19     Carrington Conference is still underway, not the Vance-Owen Conference.

20     The first sentence says:

21             "The enemy started violating the agreed 14-day cease-fire before

22     its end, and offensive operations, in particular, have been underway ..."

23             Et cetera.  And there's a reference to the intentions involved.

24             This is a document of the Main Staff of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska.  This directive is being sent to lower-ranking units,

Page 9882

 1     and they are providing information as to what is happening in Sarajevo.

 2     It illustrates the point you made earlier on, that on the eve of the

 3     conferences and when attempts are being made to find a solution, other

 4     attempts are being made to change the situation on the ground; right?

 5        A.   Yes, I think that's generally accepted.  In the case of this

 6     particular document, I wouldn't comment on it, as, again, I wasn't in

 7     Bosnia at the time.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can this be admitted?  Oh, it has been admitted, right.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You do remember that in January, the Geneva Peace Conference had

12     on its agenda the Vance-Owen Plan.  And in paragraph 83 of your

13     amalgamated statement, you say that in January, you returned to Sarajevo

14     for the "Panorama" programme.  Can you find that paragraph?

15        A.   I have it.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You were referring to a video-clip here as well, an

17     excerpt from a film that was made during that period.  It is described as

18     heavy bombing of the old city:

19             [In English] "In Sarajevo, the horrors are not just heard, but

20     lived through day by day."

21             [Interpretation] Do you remember that at the time, Muslims were

22     leaving Trebinje at the time of the conference on the 20th of January,

23     1993?  There was this excessive departure by Muslims from Trebinje at the

24     time of the conference?

25        A.   Well, I will take your word for it, Dr. Karadzic.  I think about

Page 9883

 1     that time, I'd flown to New York to interview you about the

 2     Vance-Owen Plan.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             1D1851, can we have a look at that, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In this period, I am dealing with all of these things that were

 7     being done in order to create a false picture to vilify the Serbs, to

 8     create --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, either you put the question or refrain

10     from making statements.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             D471, that's it.  Now we're going to see it.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is an instruction of the SDA party to leave Trebinje and to

15     have Muslims go to Montenegro.  I believe that you dealt with this in

16     your interviews with the president of the Assembly of the SAO Herzegovina

17     and the president of the municipality of Trebinje.  Do you remember that?

18        A.   I think it's possible that you're mistaken.  If I had visited

19     Trebinje at that time, I would surely have remembered it.

20        Q.   May I draw your attention to the first paragraph.  It says:

21             "... especially after the acceptance of the Geneva documents by

22     Karadzic and his clique in Pale, it is necessary, for the purpose of

23     realising the aspiration of all Muslims, the preservation and

24     strengthening of our state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to undertake

25     urgently the following measures ..."

Page 9884

 1             And number 1 says:  "Leaving Trebinje," and number 3 is:

 2             "To exert pressure against those who do not want to leave

 3     Trebinje."

 4             And on the second page -- can we have the second page in Serbian.

 5     It says -- I think that we should do that in English as well -- that

 6     their property will be compensated, and the signature here is that of

 7     Hasan Cengic, a rather well-known official of the SDA.

 8             So such departures, on the basis of what you know, were they not

 9     aimed at creating a picture of ethnic cleansing?

10        A.   Dr. Karadzic, I have to confine my testimony to what I know

11     about, and I have no personal knowledge of this situation in Trebinje.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             1D2876, can we have that now, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   You spoke about that in your statement of 1995 and 1996, that I

16     opposed the effort made by the Red Cross to evacuate a large number of

17     Muslims and Croats from the Banja Luka region, the Banja Luka Krajina.

18     Do you remember that?

19        A.   I think -- can you -- are we talking about late August 1994?

20        Q.   Yes, yes.

21             3393, can we have that part.

22             Do you see that here, where it says:  "The Red Cross ..."?

23        A.   Yes.  I think -- I think what we're talking about here were a

24     series of reports that I did in Central Bosnia, near Travnik, on the

25     confrontation line, when refugees, both Muslim and Croat, came across in

Page 9885

 1     large numbers.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that -- actually, that was 279.  The

 3     ERN number is 0029-5587 up until 5692.  0029-569 [as interpreted] to

 4     5650, page 1467 and 1468.

 5             Do you remember that the International Red Cross asked us to

 6     allow them to evacuate a large number of Muslims and Croats, to send them

 7     to third countries, and that I opposed that, and ultimately I yielded to

 8     that pressure and I allowed a certain number of trucks to leave every

 9     day?  Do you remember that?

10        A.   I'm not aware of the details of your negotiations with the

11     International Red Cross, but, of course, I remember the trucks and buses

12     coming with the Muslims and the Croats to the front-line position outside

13     Travnik.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can the document be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  What is this document, Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a survey of BBC reports,

18     BBC reports from 1994.  This is a summary, and this summary speaks of

19     that evacuation that the Red Cross had demanded and the Serbian

20     leadership had opposed.  Later on, it was characterised as ethnic

21     cleansing.  We'll have the statement of John Alstrum, too.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Is this summary the one produced by the BBC, itself?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  It's actually an extract from the archival

Page 9886

 1     catalogue of BBC.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So I take it there's no objection.  We'll admit it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 5     Exhibit D925.  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have for a second D336.

 7     D336.

 8             What the Defence wishes to establish here are patterns, patterns

 9     of behaviour in this war, the patterns of the other side, at that, that

10     cost us militarily and politically, especially in terms of vilification.

11     January 1993.

12             Can we look at paragraph 3 now.

13             The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina -- actually, there is still

14     this offensive in Sarajevo, and fighting is taking place between the

15     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO as well in Central Bosnia.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Can you recall that offensive in Sarajevo in January 1993?

18        A.   In January 1993, I was in Central Bosnia, reporting on the war

19     between the Muslims and Croats.  No, I'm sorry, that's a mistake.  I was

20     not there.

21             I note this document says a BiH Army offensive in Sarajevo would

22     appear to remain on hold.  That would suggest that the UN thought it was

23     about to happen, but it hadn't happened yet.  And I was not in -- I was

24     not in Bosnia in January 1993, except during the "Panorama."

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 3 of this

Page 9887

 1     document.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Paragraph 11, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina is preparing to

 4     launch an offensive without the assistance of the Croats.  And then

 5     paragraph 13, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina actually has the

 6     following military objectives:  A, B, C, D.  And then look at D and E; to

 7     launch an offensive in the Sarajevo area, in order to improve their

 8     bargaining position in negotiations, and then to continue re-armament and

 9     the build up of their forces and resources, to continue the war and gain

10     an advantage.

11             Was that your impression, too, like the one that the UN is

12     stating here and informing their headquarters of?

13        A.   This seems to me, Dr. Karadzic, to be a reasonable assessment of

14     intentions at the time, except if we're talking about January, it would

15     be very unusual to launch an offensive in January for the obvious reasons

16     that the weather would be hostile.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can this document be admitted?  Oh, it has been admitted.  I beg

19     your pardon.  I beg your pardon.  Sorry, it's 336.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, just before we go further, I just

21     want to address something on page 30, lines 8 to 11.  Dr. Karadzic said

22     to Mr. Bell:

23             "You spoke of that in your statement of 1995 and 1996, that I

24     opposed the effort made by the Red Cross to evacuate a large number of

25     Muslims and Croats from the Banja Luka region.  Do you remember that?"

Page 9888

 1             I've looked through that statement.  The words "Red Cross" don't

 2     appear in the statement at all.  I'd be happy to be corrected.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that that was published in

 4     the media, that it was a Red Cross action.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  But immediately he referred to the BBC extract,

 6     so --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Indeed.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Upon returning to Sarajevo from Central Bosnia - it was the end

11     of 1993 - you say that you noticed considerable changes in the political

12     atmosphere in Sarajevo and that there had been a certain Muslimisation

13     or, rather, Islamisation of the Assembly and political life in general.

14     Do you remember that?  You noted that Muslims were setting the agenda,

15     calling meetings, that they were of decisive importance as far as the

16     quest for solutions was concerned, and that this was something that the

17     Croats really did mind because they felt that they were being left out of

18     things?

19        A.   I think that was a fair assessment of the political situation at

20     the time.  The Croats did believe they were being excluded, and,

21     actually, to some extent they still do.

22        Q.   I agree.  It's the statement of 1995 and 1996.  It's the first

23     paragraph on page 13, although the paragraphs are not numbered.

24             So we do agree that to this day, Croats have objections of their

25     own and are seeking solutions that would be better for them; right?

Page 9889

 1        A.   Yeah, it's hardly a matter for this -- for this Court, but, yes,

 2     they are feeling harder done by, politically.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would this be a convenient time for

 4     the break?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's almost time.

 6             If it is convenient, we'll have a break for half an hour, and

 7     we'll resume at three minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Bell, you observed the events in Zvornik early in April.  You

13     saw and reported that first the Serbs fled Zvornik, and then the men

14     returned and fighting started; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.  First, the Serbs fled at Zvornik, across the river, so far

16     as I could determine, and then I'm assuming that some of them returned.

17     But the fighting forces that we saw on that video yesterday were

18     Commander Arkan's.

19        Q.   Thank you.  May I now remind you of the chain of events.  On the

20     3rd of March, the crisis in Bosanski Brod.  On the 25th and

21     26th of March, the crisis and massacre in Sijekovac.  The 1st of April

22     and 2nd of April, the crisis in Bijeljina.  The 3rd of April, attack in

23     Kupres.  8th or 9th of April, Zvornik.  Would you agree that all this

24     happened within a very short span of time and in places that are not far

25     from each other, especially Bosanski Brod, Bijeljina and Zvornik?  Did it

Page 9890

 1     have anything to do with the fleeing of Serbs from Zvornik across the

 2     river?

 3        A.   I would say it was a time of great instability, Dr. Karadzic, all

 4     the time after the referendum in March.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any information that there were numerous

 6     Muslim paramilitary formations in Zvornik, the most dangerous among them

 7     being the so-called Cobras and the so-called Mosque Mice?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Because of the compound nature of

 9     your question, we didn't hear anything about that chain of events from

10     the witness.

11             Mr. Bell, could you confirm those chain of events?

12             THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't necessarily -- if you'd call it a chain

13     of events, Your Honour, it suggests that there was some connection

14     between them and some happened because others happened.  There were

15     clearly a series of events, but I wasn't at any of them until I arrived

16     in Zvornik, so I'm not really qualified to give useful evidence about

17     them.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bell.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Did you receive any information as to who the Serbs were fleeing

21     from in Zvornik, and did you know that there were numerous Muslim

22     paramilitary formations there, the cruelest of them being the Cobras and

23     the Mosque Pigeons?

24        A.   This is your information, Dr. Karadzic, not mine.  All I was

25     aware of was that the day or two days before the fighting in Zvornik, the

Page 9891

 1     Serbs had fled, and obviously they fled in fear.

 2        Q.   We have evidence, but we will not lead it now, that these groups

 3     acted under the supervision of General Karavelic, and one of their tasks

 4     was to destroy the bridges over Drina.  Did you have information that

 5     they were about to destroy bridges over the Drina?

 6        A.   I was unaware of that.

 7        Q.   We'll come back again to the issue of refugees, and your reports

 8     showed refugees on their way.  However, in your statement, page 7,

 9     paragraph 5, you estimated, quite correctly, I believe, that these people

10     fled before the Serbs won in Zvornik, rather than being driven away by

11     the Serbs?

12        A.   There was a pattern of events.  The peoples were -- and I'm sure

13     this was not only in Zvornik.  People were expecting war.  The Serbs

14     fled.  Serbian paramilitaries then entered the town, and then Muslims

15     fled.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What draws my attention here is your estimate that

17     they didn't even wait for the Serbs to arrive, so they were refugees,

18     rather than displaced persons.

19             Your statement is D921, if we can show it on the screen, page 7.

20     Page 7, paragraph 5, in Serbian.  Can we see page 7 in Serbian.  In

21     English, it's paragraph 1, on April 10, and in Serbian it's paragraph 5.

22             There are two possibilities before us.  Either they left before

23     the Serbs came to the town or they left following instructions, like it

24     happened in Trebinje.  In any case, they were not driven out; they were

25     refugees:

Page 9892

 1             [In English] "It was people pre-empting the Serb arrival."

 2        A.   I think, Dr. Karadzic, that the video evidence we all saw

 3     yesterday suggests that you actually heard the guns firing in the

 4     background as they were -- as they were crouched there, having fled.  I

 5     don't doubt that some of them may have left before the Arkan attack, but

 6     others left because of it.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] You remember the crisis around Kravica.  The BBC

 8     reported on it.  It was you, perhaps, who reported about the massacre of

 9     Serbs on the Orthodox Christmas, 1993?

10        A.   I did include it in the "Panorama" report because I thought it

11     significant, and I thought it important to show that the Serbs were

12     victims as well as perpetrators.  And in the same spirit, we were

13     successful in having the JNA fly us to Kupres on the 13th of April, 1992,

14     and there we attended the burial of some of the Serbs who were killed in

15     that attack by main force Croats.

16        Q.   It is our Defence case that in the early days of the war and just

17     before the war, it was mainly Serbs who got killed, from Mostar and the

18     Neretva River Valley, through Kupres and Serb villages such as Malovani

19     and Sijekovac, and the first victims, in fact, were Serbs, which

20     additionally fed their fears.  Do you remember what happened on the

21     7th of January, the Orthodox Christmas 1993, in Kravica, when Serbs were

22     celebrating and they were not sufficiently on guard?

23        A.   Dr. Karadzic, it was because of that, and because I felt it was

24     important that my audience should know about it, that I included those

25     rather controversial images in the report, controversial simply because

Page 9893

 1     they were so raw and vivid.  And, indeed, I was criticised for it in some

 2     quarters back home.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You suffered certain pressure even in "The Times"

 4     because you were reporting on the suffering of Serbs?

 5        A.   I was attacked by a columnist in "The Times."  He wrote a column

 6     drawing attention especially to that sequence from Kravica and accusing

 7     me of what he called the pornography of violence.  I dismissed this

 8     criticism because I think we have, so far as possible, to show what we

 9     find and show things as they are.  But I was not criticised by my editors

10     for that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I can only imagine how younger and less experienced

12     journalists would have succumbed to such pressure and adjusted their

13     writing.  Do you agree?

14        A.   Well, unfortunately, I'm not young or inexperienced anymore for

15     this job.  What you really need is an old head on young shoulders, I'm

16     afraid.

17        Q.   Did you know that we ordered restraint from combat activities

18     during Catholic and Muslim holidays, and that I personally enabled the

19     pilgrims to go to Mecca?

20        A.   If that is so, Dr. Karadzic, it's greatly to your credit.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We have that evidence, but we don't have time today.

22             May I remind you what happened in March 1993.  It's a well-known

23     crisis around Cerska.  Do you remember that?

24        A.   Yes.  We had great difficulty getting access, but we were well

25     aware of the crisis.

Page 9894

 1        Q.   Is it correct that there was a violent campaign around Cerska,

 2     claiming that the Serbs had perpetrated a massacre and that blood was

 3     flowing in rivers, and that campaign did not stop until General Morillon

 4     went to Cerska?

 5        A.   This was something I would not have reported, because I wasn't

 6     there and wouldn't report on hearsay, except what I was told by the

 7     United Nations, especially individuals in the United Nations whom I

 8     especially trusted.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Then again on 13 March, we have a video showing

10     General Morillon arriving in Srebrenica and that he was going to stay

11     there.  You remember that?

12        A.   Yes, I remember that.  It was -- it was one of the -- one of the

13     best-remembered moments of the long war.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You spent a lot of time in 1993 in Central Bosnia;

15     correct?

16        A.   Yes, that is correct.

17        Q.   Am I right in saying, regardless of whether that perception is

18     correct, that both Serbs and Croats perceived you as biased, in favour of

19     the Muslims to some extent, so you were attacked by all three sides, as

20     it were?

21        A.   I wouldn't have minded if I had been attacked by all three sides.

22     In fact, for much of that year, we operated out of the Lasva Valley,

23     which was held by the HVO, and I had good relations with the HVO, and

24     especially their commander, Colonel Blaskic.

25        Q.   But regardless of that perception, the Serbs also held you in

Page 9895

 1     high esteem and received you gladly; correct?

 2        A.   That is correct.  As I explained yesterday, I had quite a few

 3     problems at roadblocks.  But especially there, the word they used of me

 4     was correct, which meant they thought I was careful with the facts.  And

 5     I was grateful for that, because one doesn't need to pick up any more

 6     enemies than one is going to normally.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If it were not for time constraints, I would relate

 8     an anecdote that in our part of the world, in the Balkans, it is

 9     chauvinism when one hates others more than is normal.

10        A.   I like that.

11        Q.   Do you remember the crisis in Gorazde from the 10th of April,

12     1994, onwards?

13        A.   Yes, I do, although I never got further to Gorazde than the

14     Serb-held high ground overlooking it, and it was your daughter who helped

15     to give me that access.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D2877.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   If you remember, you communicated with General Rose probably

19     after his return.  We see that document now, 36.  It's part of your

20     reporting; correct?

21        A.   Yes, I believe this was -- this was when General Rose visited

22     Gorazde.  It was a very controversial visit.  I didn't accompany him, but

23     there was a military cameraman who recorded the event.

24        Q.   Do you recall that there were reports about hundreds, even

25     thousands of dead, and that General Rose ordered air-strikes on Serb

Page 9896

 1     tanks and Serb positions, and there was a press conference on the

 2     12th of April, where he informed that his forces targeted Serb tanks and

 3     guns?

 4        A.   Yes.  As I recall, though, there was only one tank that was

 5     targeted and hit.  It seemed to us to be a token of UN resolve.  It

 6     certainly wasn't the sort of serious air-strike that occurred later in

 7     the war.

 8        Q.   Yes, there was one tank and one ambulance, and there were

 9     incidents of fire against Serb positions.  And at that press conference,

10     General Rose said that his soldiers helped the aircraft find their aim.

11     It's in 0029-5578 to -5692, page 1484.  And on this page, 1532, on the

12     27th of April, it seems that General Rose was angry to be deceived by the

13     BH Army regarding the scale of damage and destruction in Gorazde?

14        A.   Yes, I do remember him coming out, and what he -- and he believed

15     that the BiH forces could have done much more to defend themselves, and

16     what he said was very controversial.  In fact, he just about -- if I'd

17     been a soldier, I think he'd have court-martialed me for broadcasting it.

18             We were aware all the time of exaggerated claims of casualties.

19     It was very difficult, Dr. Karadzic, for us in Sarajevo being denied

20     access and being told, usually by radio broadcasts from the enclaves, of

21     the dreadful things that were going on.  But it was impossible to confirm

22     them, and I tended to confine myself to what I knew for sure.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be received?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

Page 9897

 1     Exhibit D926.  Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Early in August 1994, after the Contact Group Plan was rejected,

 4     you reported on the beginning of complete isolation of Bosnian Serbs.  Do

 5     you remember that?

 6        A.   Yes.  It was the last time we were able to report from

 7     Republika Srpska, actually, so I remember it very well.

 8        Q.   Then there was a crisis in Sarajevo, with a Muslim offensive and

 9     the Serbian seizure of weapons, so we were isolated again?

10        A.   I know that you felt very much on your own, but I think you also

11     felt that that was part of your history.

12             And it might be fair to add to that that since, according to my

13     notes here, you rejected the Contact Group Plan on the 27th of August,

14     1994, that isolation was, to some extent, self-imposed.

15        Q.   If you remember, President Milosevic imposed sanctions on us on

16     the 4th of August, and I believe that we rejected it on the referendum in

17     late July.  Do you remember that on the 4th of August, the complete

18     blockade was imposed on the Drina River, and the referendum took place in

19     end August?  Yes, you are right, 27th of August.  But the Assembly

20     rejected the plan earlier, and sanctions were imposed on us on the

21     4th of August?

22        A.   Yes.  But as I remember, there was a referendum, and your people

23     voted on it.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Just briefly, regarding the visit of the Pope, do you

25     remember there was an attempt to organise the Pope's visit to Sarajevo in

Page 9898

 1     September 1994, and again we were misrepresented in the media?  We had

 2     offered that the Pope arrive to Kiseljak by helicopter and continue by

 3     land routes, for safety reasons?

 4        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic, I do remember that, and I remember a statement

 5     to the effect that if he did come, you would be unable to guarantee his

 6     safety.  This was widely interpreted in Sarajevo as some kind of a threat

 7     by you, which it didn't have to be.  It could be a threat by somebody

 8     else.  But, of course, by then we had no access to you, and I regret if

 9     you feel you were misrepresented.  If we had been able to talk to you,

10     you could have made your own case.

11        Q.   I agree, I agree completely.  But you remember that in 1996, the

12     Pope did come for a visit, and the Muslim police prevented a conspiracy

13     to murder him and discovered an explosive device by the road?

14        A.   I wasn't there then.  But, of course, if that was the case, that

15     was the case.

16        Q.   In our interview, you said that you were not completely aware of

17     the military infrastructure in Sarajevo, especially the factories.  Would

18     you be surprised if you heard from me that there were a couple of dozen

19     factories producing weapons and ammunition in Sarajevo, itself?

20        A.   I would not be surprised to hear that the Bosnian Government Army

21     had some installations.  None of them -- I mean, if they were -- if they

22     were hit by your forces, I think we might have known about them.  I know

23     that some were alleged to have been in the area of the television

24     station, which was certainly attacked by the modified air-bomb, but, of

25     course, that was a stand-alone building with no factories immediately

Page 9899

 1     around it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             1D2900, could I have that, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You reported about casualties in the waterline by the brewery.

 6     Question number 1:  Do you know that Mr. Cuny informed the

 7     Soros Foundation in New York that the Muslim government is obstructing

 8     the repair of waterworks and that some people were carrying out this

 9     obstruction, inter alia, near the brewery in Sarajevo?

10        A.   No, I was not aware of that, Dr. Karadzic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  There is some information here from the

12     Military Intelligence Service of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps about

13     locations where military equipment is being manufactured, as well as

14     ammunition.  So this is the Mechanical Engineering Faculty, the tobacco

15     factory, the Vase Miskin Crni factory, which is near the TV station, and

16     the Sarajevo Brewery.

17             Can we scroll down a bit.

18             So the Sarajevo Brewery was a factory manufacturing weapons as

19     well.  Although we did not establish who fired at people standing in line

20     for water near the brewery, the brewery was a factory that manufactured

21     weapons.  Do you agree?  Do you agree that that is what this document

22     says?

23        A.   I can only agree it's what this document says.  The people who

24     were killed in that queue, so far as I know, were not military; they were

25     civilians.

Page 9900

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree with that, but an

 2     investigation would have to be carried out in order to establish who did

 3     it.  It does not go without saying that it was the Serb side that had

 4     committed this, but the brewery was manufacturing weapons, too.

 5             Can this document be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I'm wondering if Mr. Bell had commented on this in

 7     any sense.  We don't have an English translation, either.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we do have a report about

 9     casualties in the line of people waiting for water, and previously we

10     adopted the Cuny report that refers to manipulations with water in the

11     town of Sarajevo.  And this is a Military Intelligence report stating

12     that the brewery is a factory that manufactures weapons, actually.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, Mr. Bell can't read the document,

15     knows nothing about the information that Dr. Karadzic put to him, and was

16     only able to state that Dr. Karadzic's reading of the document might have

17     been accurate.  I don't think that's sufficient to provide for the

18     admission of this document.  And I'm still trying to find where we have

19     admitted anything from Mr. Cuny to the effect that Dr. Karadzic has

20     asserted.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely.

22             Mr. Karadzic, we'll not admit this through Mr. Bell.

23             And time is limited.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   You did notice, Mr. Bell, in the autumn of 1994, before the

Page 9901

 1     so-called Carter cease-fire, that the Muslim army had taken several

 2     hundred square miles or kilometres of Serb territory from Bihac.  The

 3     offensive was launched from Bihac.  Do you remember that?

 4        A.   I remember the Bihac offensive.  It was one of the areas of the

 5     country to which we had no access whatever.

 6        Q.   Well, you do remember that then we launched a counter-offensive

 7     and that we regained all of that territory.  When we got close to Bihac,

 8     then everyone seemed to remember that Bihac was a protected zone, and

 9     they bombarded our positions near Bihac because we were attacking a

10     protected zone?

11        A.   Yes.  The only reports I filed from Bihac were in November --

12     about Bihac were in November of 1994, and my only sources of information

13     were the UNPROFOR spokesmen, and my only sources of video came from

14     Bosnian Serb cameramen, through their television station.

15        Q.   Thank you.  May I draw your attention to page 15 of your early

16     statement of 1995 and 1996.  This includes your observations and

17     assessments regarding developments towards the end of the war.  Do you

18     have that?

19        A.   I don't have it in front of me.  It's not on my screen.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it called up.  The

21     number is D922 -- 921, D921.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   This is the first page, and that is your signature, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 9902

 1             Can we now have page 15.  In the Serbian, it's page 15, and

 2     that's fine.  However, I don't know whether this would be 15 in English.

 3     It should be the same.  It is one page before this one in English.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   May I ask you to comment on paragraph 2, and then paragraphs 3

 6     and 5?  These are your observations towards the end of the war.

 7        A.   On paragraph 2, Dr. Karadzic, we became aware of -- well, you

 8     would know this better than I do -- of certain tensions between the

 9     political and the military in Bosnian Serbia, at the senior level.  But

10     you would be a better witness to this than I would.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Paragraph 3.  You repeat here that we considered

12     Sarajevo to be our own city and that our homes had been destroyed there.

13     Is that right?

14        A.   That's right.  I don't think you would dispute that today,

15     either.

16        Q.   Could you please take a look at paragraph 5, especially the last

17     sentence.  The entire paragraph speaks of your observations and how the

18     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina treated the Serbs?

19        A.   Yes, Dr. Karadzic.  I think it was a -- I also wrote in my book

20     that I felt that you were, ironically, disadvantaged by your superiority

21     in heavy weapons.  The kind of thing that would happen was that the

22     Bosnian Army would launch a small-arms attack in some numbers on a part

23     of the confrontation line.  You would reply with your heavy weapons, and

24     in no time at all we'd have Haris Silajdzic on television accusing you of

25     war crimes.  That was the way things happened.

Page 9903

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You were aware of the cease-fire that

 2     President Carter managed to achieve.  The Muslim side insisted on that

 3     cease-fire because they ran into difficulties in the area of Bihac;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Yes, I was aware of that cease-fire.

 6        Q.   Do you remember that it went on for, well, not exactly

 7     four months, but it did go on for a while, say until February, with

 8     smaller violations or bigger ones?

 9        A.   Yes, that is so.

10        Q.   Thank you.  There is a report -- a report about the use of an

11     air-bomb in Hrasnica.  You are aware of that incident, aren't you?

12        A.   Yes.  I was in Sarajevo at the time.

13        Q.   Do you remember that the 104th or, rather, 4th Mountain Brigade

14     was stationed in Hrasnica?  The 4th Motorised Brigade, rather, that had

15     been established by Fikret Prevljak and that had about 4500 fighting men,

16     including an intervention unit?

17        A.   I believed that because of its position, there would have been

18     Bosnian Army units in Hrasnica.  I didn't have the order of battle, and I

19     didn't know which units they were.  I mean, it was a war going on, and

20     Sarajevo was in a war.  A city is going to be, necessarily, militarised.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that Hrasnica is not a very big area and

22     that 5.000 soldiers, with headquarters, battalions, companies, logistics

23     bases and other infrastructure, constitutes quite a lot of military

24     targets?

25        A.   I don't think I can usefully comment on military details that I

Page 9904

 1     didn't know about.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I think the BBC had - I don't know whether it was

 3     your cameraman - had this video that had to do with the training of a

 4     special police unit in Hrasnica that was headquartered in a school in

 5     Hrasnica.  Do you remember that?

 6        A.   I remember doing a report about a military exercise on high

 7     ground at the back of the -- of the television station.  I thought it

 8     most bizarre to have a military exercise in the middle of a real war.

 9     But those soldiers were based in a school near the old city.

10        Q.   We saw two orders of General Milosevic here about the shelling of

11     Hrasnica, or, rather, the use of an air-bomb, and General Milosevic had

12     this order on the 6th of April, 1995, in which he says that targets

13     should be selected -- actually, that the most profitable targets should

14     be selected, involving the greatest material damage.  However, our

15     Defence found an order of this same general to the same person on the

16     4th of April, and in that order General Milosevic specifies, in very

17     concrete terms, what the targets are.  And two days later, he only orders

18     the implementation of that.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have D782 now.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Maybe I was a little premature in rising.  Perhaps

22     D782 is the document I was about to ask for a reference to.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see, Ms. Edgerton.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 782.  It's the same commander,

25     Milosevic, issuing an order to the same person on the 4th of April.  He

Page 9905

 1     lists all the targets, including -- actually, can we have the next page,

 2     please.  Yes, we need the next page in English as well.

 3             All the targets are enumerated, including those in Hrasnica.

 4     Then there is the order of the 6th of April, where he says that the

 5     center of Hrasnica should be targeted.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you believe that this is a chain, that these two orders deal

 8     with one-and-the-same thing and that they are one-and-the-same thing

 9     altogether?  If I may, I would like to draw your attention to the middle

10     part:

11             "Neutralise the activity of enemy artillery and mortars."

12             And then --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a moment.

14             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, Dr. Karadzic is putting a question to

16     Mr. Bell in specific detail about a document dated 6th of April, 1995,

17     which Mr. Bell isn't being given the opportunity to see, and then being

18     asked if that represents a chain.  Perhaps Mr. Bell could be shown the

19     other document that Dr. Karadzic alleges is part of that chain.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question is whether Mr. Bell

22     agrees that this order, issued two days before the other one, specifies

23     the targets involved.  And it says, inter alia, in this line number 2, to

24     prevent the infantry from acting, the enemy infantry, and then:

25             "Neutralise the activity of enemy artillery and mortars."

Page 9906

 1             Then corrections with specific equipment.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you agree that this is a very specific reference to military

 4     objectives, by no means civilian ones?

 5        A.   The reference is clearly to military objectives.  As I remember,

 6     the modified air-bomb fell on and destroyed civilian property and caused

 7     civilian casualties.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can call this up, but we're

 9     wasting time.  We can call up this same order of the same general, issued

10     to the same person on the 6th of April.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you agree that this shell fell 50 metres away from the school

13     that was the headquarters of that special combat unit, and also that

14     among the rubble, there was a person who was wearing a military uniform?

15        A.   I don't know how far from a military unit this bomb fell, but it

16     clearly missed its target.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If we were to look at how high the building is,

18     believe me, it was only a few centimetres, the miss was no more than

19     that.  Thank you.

20             Do you remember that offensives in 1995 were being prepared in

21     mid-April, before the so-called Carter cease-fire was about to end?  You

22     spoke about that when you testified on the 27th of April in the

23     General Milosevic case.  5313 and 5314 are the pages.

24             Rasim Delic sent this letter to Izetbegovic, in which he claimed

25     that they had to defend themselves, that they were planning an offensive

Page 9907

 1     to break through the siege, and that his army was preparing for that.  Do

 2     you remember that?

 3        A.   We were aware at the time that the cease-fire was crumbling, or

 4     about to crumble, and that offensives were being prepared, yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D1073.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   May I draw your attention to this order.  It pertains to the

 8     12th Division that is based within the city itself, and there is a

 9     specific map that accompanies this order.

10             In paragraph 2, we see the division's task:

11             "Carry out an attack from the zone of defence of our division

12     along favourable axes and towards favourable targets, with the task of

13     inflicting on the enemy the greatest loss possible in manpower and

14     MTS ..."

15             Et cetera.

16             This is already the 20th of March, 1995.  This is the second part

17     of the period encompassed by the Carter cease-fire.  Do you remember

18     that?

19        A.   I did not have access to this document, obviously, but we did

20     expect a cease-fire -- an offensive, an attempt to break the siege.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that this particular wording "inflict on

22     the enemy the greatest loss possible in manpower," is identical to the

23     one used by General Milosevic in relation to Hrasnica, that this is

24     customary military language, "inflict the greatest losses possible in

25     manpower," et cetera?

Page 9908

 1        A.   Yes, that is customary military language.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3.

 3             Page 3, "Support Forces."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I would like to ask you to focus on that.  Let us see what they

 6     have and how they're going to support this offensive.  The 3rd Mixed

 7     Artillery Division, consisting of six 122-millimetre howitzer batteries,

 8     recoilless guns, 105-millimetre howitzer battery, four weapons and a

 9     rocket battery comprising three launchers, a tank platoon, and so on,

10     from Mojmilo, Brijesce Brdo, Zmajevac Command Post in the Zica factory.

11             Do you remember that the Zica factory is right next-door to the

12     TV station, it's that industrial complex there?

13        A.   Yes, except that the TV station is, itself, a stand-alone

14     building, and if the TV station is hit, I imagine, with the degree of

15     professionalism available, it would be the TV station that was targeted.

16        Q.   Well, NATO would not agree.  They thought that TV Belgrade was a

17     legitimate target.  Remember that?

18        A.   I do remember it.  And when I was a member of Parliament, I stood

19     up in the House of Commons and strongly objected to the targeting of a

20     television station.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let's come to your question.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Later on, we're going to look at a

23     document.  Let us see who fired at the TV station building.

24             Actually, let's have a look at the next page here.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you read out all the lengthy

Page 9909

 1     paragraph, and at the end, your question, you just asked whether certain

 2     factories are just next-door to the TV station.  That's the only question

 3     you asked, and then this document is what we already admitted into

 4     evidence.  You are just simply wasting your time, Mr. Karadzic.  We

 5     admitted this through Mr. Harland.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It's Exhibit D182.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You're right.

 9             All right.  I just wanted to ask the following.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you agree that the command post in Dobrovoljacka number 16 is

12     in the very center of town, that street, Dobrovoljacka?

13        A.   I would be surprised if some command posts had not been in the

14     center of the town.

15        Q.   If we know that the command posts were in the center of town, in

16     a residential area, would you also agree that mortars and guns and tanks

17     are not being held on the front-line, but are being kept in the city,

18     itself?  Would you agree, then, that firing at the city, itself, does not

19     mean that it's a civilian area that is being targeted, but military

20     objectives that are placed within a civilian area?

21        A.   I cannot imagine any circumstances in which it would be

22     legitimate for a heavily populated city to become a free-fire zone.

23        Q.   But do you agree that also a residential area should not be

24     abused by having one's own guns and mortars placed within it?  Would you

25     agree with that?

Page 9910

 1        A.   I would agree with that, yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can we now have a look at a document from April 1995 that

 4     provides a precise order for an offensive that we saw later in May and in

 5     June, up until the middle of July.  Let us see 1D2839.  1D2839.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please, remark that it's the 14th of April, 1995.  The command of

 8     this division gives information about the enemy; that is, the Serbs.

 9             Next page, please.

10             And here I will read -- I don't know if we have a translation:

11             "I hereby decide:  In co-ordinated action with the units of the

12     14th and 16th Divisions ..."

13             Did you know that the 14th and 16th Divisions, as part of the

14     1st Corps, were located in Tarcin, that is, the Niksic Plateau, on the

15     outer ring around our positions?

16        A.   I didn't know the names of the specific units located there, but

17     I was well aware that there were Bosnian Government forces on your outer

18     confrontation line, yes.

19        Q.   So he, the commander, decided to defend the inner part of the

20     city, while at the same time, I'm quoting:

21             "... creating conditions for mounting combat actions."

22             Para 5.1 concerns 101st Brigade, and he defines their area of

23     responsibility.  It stretches all the way to Alipasino Polje.  In depth

24     and in width, its boundaries are defined.  One boundary is Debelo Brdo,

25     the railway station, et cetera.

Page 9911

 1             Can we see the next page.

 2             I won't read much.  I would just like to show that the entire

 3     city was militarised, as you, yourself, were able to note.  Let's just

 4     see all these units --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Was that your question?  Can you answer that

 6     question or could you make an observation on that --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  -- that the entire city was militarised?

 9             THE WITNESS:  It was a modern industrial city caught in a war.

10     That did not excuse attacks on civilians.  I hadn't, of course, any

11     access to any of these documents.  But when the offensives occurred,

12     which were in May and again in June, I did report them as attempts to

13     break the siege both from inside and from outside.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bell.

15             That's what we can hear from the witness.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Do you agree that these brigades existed, 101st and 115th, which

18     had an area of responsibility from the Miljacka River all the way to

19     Trebevic and our positions, 152nd, 105th, 111th, 112th, 102nd, 155th,

20     143rd?  The last few ones are on the next page.  Do you agree that this

21     is a huge force on the relatively small territory of the city of

22     Sarajevo?

23        A.   Dr. Karadzic, one of the points I was making in my later reports

24     towards the end of the war was that the Bosnian Government forces were

25     able to attack in much greater strength and better equipped, and that the

Page 9912

 1     balance of forces was changing.  And I think this was true.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,

 3     MFI'd?  It has been submitted for translation.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I don't see any basis on which we can

 5     admit this document through Mr. Bell.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But Mr. Bell eye-witnessed the

 7     firing -- the fire-power of these units inside the city and their

 8     offensives that lasted for several months that year.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you will have another opportunity to

10     tender this document through another witness.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             May I now call 1D1063.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You noticed, Mr. Bell, that there was fire and there were periods

15     when there was more outgoing fire than incoming fire into the city.  I

16     would just like to show one day's expenditure of large-calibre

17     ammunition.

18             If you look from item 6 down to the bottom, these are rockets,

19     mortar shells, artillery shells, howitzers, Zolja hand-held

20     rocket-launchers and mortars.  This division, on that day, 24 May 1995,

21     fired 1.610 explosive projectiles.  We're not even counting the rounds

22     that did not explode.

23             Do you agree that this is a significant number and that many of

24     these shells looked or could have looked like Serb shells to the

25     journalists and observers?

Page 9913

 1        A.   It was clear to me, Dr. Karadzic, when these offensives began,

 2     and there was one on the 16th of May, that it was an attempt by the

 3     forces inside the city to break out.  And I pointed earlier in my

 4     testimony there was a war going on, a war between two armed forces on the

 5     confrontation lines, so none of this actually surprises me.  And having

 6     been there, in the middle of it, it's interesting to see how much was

 7     fired, but I'm not astonished by it.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bell.  You were there.  But due to our inability

 9     to hold our own in this media war, the impression was created that the

10     attacks were one-sided, that all the explosions were caused by them, and

11     that the Serbs were attacking a defenceless city.  Do you agree that that

12     was, indeed, the perception, that this was not a war, that these were

13     just Serb attacks?

14        A.   Again, on the 27th of May, Dr. Karadzic, I reported attempts

15     to -- by the Bosnian Government forces to break their encirclement.  I

16     did not report that as an attack on civilians.  But where they were

17     attacks on civilians, I reported them as attacks on civilians.  I tried

18     to be as fair as I could, reporting through the fog of war, which, as you

19     know, is quite difficult.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             May this document be received?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I just checked back through the transcript, and I

24     actually don't see a single comment from the witness in regard to this

25     document.

Page 9914

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe that in the

 2     context, the witness confirmed that there was fire and that it was a war.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We can take it that he confirmed in a general term.

 4     He would not be astonished by this.  On that basis, we'll admit that.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 6     Exhibit D927.  Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly display 1D2841,

 8     just to take a look at what happened on the 31st of May.  1D2841.

 9             This is another telegram, a report by General Karavelic,

10     commander of the 1st Corps.  He reports about their expenditure.

11             We can move to the next page.  In English, it's page 2 and 3.

12             2.055 explosions, 800 82-millimetre shells, 150 120-millimetre

13     shells, grenades, et cetera.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you agree that it was very fierce fire against Serb

16     settlements and Serb positions in Sarajevo?

17        A.   It was not always possible to know the sources of the fire.  I do

18     remember reflecting at the time this was the most intensive battle I had

19     ever been caught up in in my entire life.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be received?

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  No, there's no basis to admit this through this

23     witness, Mr. Karadzic.  I think it's my third time to recommend you to

24     concentrate on your more relevant and more important issues.

25             The witness gave his opinion as to the consumption of ammunition.

Page 9915

 1     There's no need for you to put another document to the witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.  That was a document

 3     concerning their expenditure of ammunition.  But I believe what the

 4     witness said, to the effect that it was such fierce fighting as he had

 5     never seen before, and he witnessed many wars, is sufficient.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you agree that in the General Perisic case, on the

 8     4th of February, 2009, on page 23 -- sorry, 3233, you said that

 9     General Smith finally assessed the balance of powers, what he has and

10     what the Serbs have, he realised that he can finally press his advantage

11     and use a force that would change everything?  Do you remember that?

12        A.   I remember that, Dr. Karadzic, but he didn't say that in

13     isolation.  As I remember, this was about the time when UN Military

14     Observers were taken prisoner and held hostage.

15        Q.   Well, I believe, first of all, then United Nations and NATO got

16     involved in the war.  We warned them against it, lest they become a

17     warring party.  And do you believe that -- do you remember that UNPROFOR

18     commanders, themselves, asked their own superiors not to turn them into a

19     warring party?

20        A.   I do remember discussions to that effect.  I also remember it was

21     the only occasion on which General Smith ever gave a press conference,

22     and that was to deliver an ultimatum to your side.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Then can I just say, Your Honours, the

24     page reference 3233 from the Perisic testimony should actually be 3223

25     and 3224.

Page 9916

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm sorry about these

 3     pages.

 4             Can we see 1D2874.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   We can agree that in May, the offensive is well underway, with a

 7     lot of ammunition being expended, as we have seen, and now we will see

 8     the reactions of the UN.

 9             This is an annex to the sitrep, 29 May 1995.  Do you recall that

10     the heavy weapons exclusion zone should have applied to the Muslim side

11     of Sarajevo as well?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   From the preceding documents, we were able to see that the Muslim

14     side felt quite free to use considerable fire-power against us, without

15     subjecting themselves to air-strikes.  And when we, in agreement with the

16     UN, took our own weapons to defend ourselves, air-strikes began.  Do you

17     remember those air-strikes in the end of May?

18        A.   I do remember those air-strikes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we see page 4, the bottom of page 4.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   It was our understanding that there was co-ordinated action going

23     on, and the Muslim side, themselves, said that they were acting in a

24     co-ordination with the UNPROFOR.  And here, the UN writes that the

25     BH Army is taking advantage of Serb preoccupations, with the pressures by

Page 9917

 1     the UN and NATO, to make gains and defeat us.  Do you remember that at

 2     that time, we were bombarded by NATO at the same time as fending off

 3     attacks from the BH Army?

 4        A.   And as I observed before, I felt that the balance of forces was

 5     changing to your disadvantage.  And I told one of your advisers this two

 6     years earlier.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we now see one video, where we show that we do not consider

 9     armed UN soldiers and gunners as hostages, regardless of the way they are

10     acting, but we consider them as a warring party.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   While we're waiting for this to be played back:  Do you remember

13     that General Smith made this decision to use force, taking advantage of

14     the absence of General Janvier, who was away attending a wedding?

15        A.   I did actually write about this in my book on the Bosnian war,

16     yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We would like 1D2901, a video-clip,

18     and it's recorded as V000-0458-A-1.  And we would like to view it --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we hear the time again?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll play two short video-clips,

21     1:31.57 starts the first one.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "... that he regards the hostages as prisoners of war.  The

24     UN Security Council is meeting now in New York to consider the future of

25     its peacekeeping operation."

Page 9918

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you agree that it was our position that these men were not

 3     hostages, but prisoners of war, and the basis for that was the

 4     involvement not only of General Smith and land forces' forward air

 5     controllers and gunners in targeting our positions?

 6        A.   Dr. Karadzic, I know that you regarded them as prisoners of war.

 7     All I would say is it is not usual military practice to chain prisoners

 8     of war to military installations.

 9        Q.   We could debate that.  We could debate whether the United Nations

10     unilaterally changed the UNPROFOR's mandate, because you remember that

11     they were present, with our consent, on the condition that their mandate

12     was strictly defined?

13        A.   And as I remember, these individuals, one Canadian, one Pole, one

14     Czech, they were all unarmed soldiers anyway.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we now see a brief clip from 1:39.35.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you agree that the laser pointer used to aim at our artillery

19     tanks and positions is also a weapon?

20        A.   If, indeed, these soldiers had -- they were not forward

21     air controllers, to my -- to the best of my knowledge.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now view the clip.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             "Karadzic:  ... although we do not consider them hostages, we

25     consider them war prisoners."

Page 9919

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can these two clips be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 3             Ms. Edgerton, some time ago you raised the lack of transcription.

 4     For the benefit of the interpreters and court reporters, it has been our

 5     practice to require the parties to produce the transcript in advance, but

 6     in case of -- but for the purpose of admission of documents, in

 7     particular in the case of some short transcript, do we really need that

 8     transcript?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  No, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And that has been our practice as well.

11             On that basis, we'll admit these clips.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             I believe the interpretation was recorded on transcript, so that

14     might suffice.

15             JUDGE KWON:  First we'll give the number, give a number to this

16     clip, and then we'll come to the previous document you haven't tendered,

17     to --

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give two numbers to these clips or just one

20     number?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1:31.57 and 1:39.35.  It could be

22     the same exhibit, as it's the same topic, same film; just two different

23     clips.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

25     Exhibit D928.  Thank you.

Page 9920

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And are you going to tender the previous document we

 2     saw, which was referred to as an annex to a certain document?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton?

 5             We'll admit that.  That will be Exhibit D929.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I won't take long.  I'm really very

 7     grateful for the effort you've invested in this.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   There's just one thing that puzzles me, Mr. Bell, and that is the

10     fact that out of some minor incidents, which were never recorded -- there

11     were minor incidents where cameras never showed up, but there were major

12     incidents we believed were staged, and the cameras were very late in

13     coming, such as the bread queue.  In that case, the cameras were there to

14     record the evacuation of the wounded and dead.  The cameras were there to

15     record the incident with the water queue, the football-match, the line

16     for humanitarian aid, all the major incidents that were given a lot of

17     coverage in our deep conviction, and we have evidence we will lead, were

18     orchestrated by the BH police and army, more the police than the army.

19             Do you know of a single major incident when the cameras did not

20     happen to be near and came late?

21        A.   The area in which the cameras operated for much of the war,

22     Dr. Karadzic, was a fairly small one.  I'm 100 per cent convinced, from

23     such of these major incidents that I saw, for instance, Markale II, that

24     they were not and could not have been staged.  In fact, I remember

25     reflecting at many times in the war, looking around me at the devastation

Page 9921

 1     and the misery, and thinking, No one is ever going to be able to

 2     reconstruct this even for the purpose of a movie.  That it could have

 3     been staged within minutes I find incredible.

 4        Q.   Maybe I was not clear enough, Mr. Bell.  We assert that at

 5     Markale I, dead bodies were placed on the scene.  On Markale II, they

 6     didn't dare do the same things.  An explosion did happen there, and real

 7     people died, but the explosion was caused by the Muslim side, not the

 8     Serb side.  In that sense, it was also orchestrated.  In Markale I,

 9     though, the whole scene was rigged, with dead bodies -- already dead

10     bodies planted there.  That's what we're saying.  And in Markale I, the

11     explosion was supposed to be caused by a Serb shell.

12             But how is it possible that cameras were not even five minutes

13     late, they were there on the door to record all the bleeding and the

14     suffering?  Can you recall one incident when the cameras did not arrive

15     on time?

16        A.   There was a -- there was a terrible bombing in Tuzla, in

17     May 1995, in which the cameras certainly didn't arrive immediately.  But

18     I just -- I just -- I mean, I'm astonished at the idea that these kind of

19     things can be staged, even if anybody wants to stage them.  I don't think

20     it would be remotely possible.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bell.  But, yet again, you are applying common

22     sense, which did not apply either in Sarajevo or in this war.

23             Thank you very much for having testified.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 9922

 1             Ms. Edgerton, do you have a lot?  Shall we take a break now?

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  I have -- and I tend to be conservative, so

 3     I think I have 30 minutes of redirect, Your Honours.  So I would

 4     appreciate a break.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at

 6     1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10             Before you start your re-examination, Judge Baird has a question

11     for the witness.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Bell, can you assist us in the matter?  Now,

14     you were shown a video-clip.  I think it was 1D2809, and Dr. Karadzic

15     told you, and I would have to summarise here, that some of the fire was

16     certainly aimed at military facilities, and he imagined that that was

17     fire on all sides, on all sides, my emphasis, and it was mainly aimed at

18     the front-line, itself, military facilities, as could have been seen in

19     the film.  And you replied, and again I'm going to summarise, that some

20     of it was certainly aimed at military facilities, and you imagined that

21     the fire we saw in the footage, which you saw every night for

22     four months, was targeted on front-line positions, but also there were

23     snipers and mortars used.  Whether or not civilians were targeted,

24     civilians were certainly hit, and to that extent the firing was

25     indiscriminate.

Page 9923

 1             Do you recollect this?

 2        A.   Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE BAIRD:  Now, the question I would like to ask and where we

 4     would like your assistance, is:  Would this indiscriminate firing have

 5     been on all sides?

 6        A.   There certainly was sniping against civilians in Grbavica, which

 7     was held by the Serbs.  The preponderance of sniping at civilians was

 8     done against civilians on the government side of the lines.  And a lot of

 9     the heavy fire, which I saw for four months, and a vast amount of it, was

10     going in on positions on the Jewish cemetery, which was very front-line.

11     And I think the video which you were shown yesterday, Your Honour, of the

12     sniping against water-carriers in that basement, that was targeted.  I

13     mean, they weren't just caught in the cross-fire.  That man was shot, and

14     in our -- common sense says quite deliberately.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much for that.  Just one last

16     question.

17             Before the break, you were asked a bit of a compound question,

18     actually.  Dr. Karadzic told you, and again I must summarise, from the

19     preceding document we were able to see that the Muslim side felt quite

20     free to use considerable fire-power against us, without subjecting

21     themselves to air-strikes.  And when we, in agreement with the UN, took

22     our own weapons to defend ourselves, air-strikes began.  And then he

23     asked:

24             "Do you remember those air-strikes at the end of May?"

25             And you replied:

Page 9924

 1             "I do remember those air-strikes."

 2             Now, Mr. Bell, by giving that answer, can we take it that you

 3     were agreeing with Dr. Karadzic that the Muslim side felt quite free to

 4     use fire-power against the Serbs, without fear of air-strikes, but when

 5     the Serbs, in agreement with the UN, took their weapons to defend

 6     themselves, they were bombed, or were you restricting yourself simply to

 7     the fact of the air-strikes?

 8        A.   I think it's a fair question, Your Honour, and I would answer it

 9     this way: that I think if the -- if the Bosnian Government side had held

10     UN soldiers hostage and, in a sense, kidnapped them, it would have opened

11     itself up to exactly the same sort of reprisals by NATO on behalf of the

12     UN.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  I thank you very much, indeed.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And Judge Morrison also has a question for you,

15     Mr. Bell.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  During the period of the time you were in

17     Sarajevo, how much autonomy did you feel that you had, within the

18     constraints of being in a war zone and taking into account limitations on

19     movement?  How much autonomy did you have -- do you feel that you had to

20     go where you wanted, when you wanted, in order to observe that which was

21     of interest?

22        A.   The answer is that the longer the war went on, the less autonomy

23     we had, the less freedom of movement.  From August 1994, the Serb side

24     was closed off to us completely, and as for the Bosnian Government side,

25     it introduced some severe restrictions in the name of field security, so

Page 9925

 1     that we were -- we had very little autonomy in the closing months.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  All right.  And as a supplementary question to

 3     that:  Do you feel that the lack of autonomy that you had at that stage

 4     precluded you from taking a view that you might otherwise have been

 5     desired to take, in terms of wider reporting?

 6        A.   I would love to have been able to reported the offensives 'round

 7     Tuzla, which had happened about the same time.  It was just not open to

 8     us.  We were not allowed to do so.  It was particularly difficult to

 9     report in an even-handed and impartial way when we had no access to the

10     Serbian side.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

12             And this is an observation by way of a judicial side-road.  I

13     hope it's not obscure.  It's simply to test my powers of observation.

14             Are you wearing a Royal Suffolk Regiment tie?

15        A.   Unfortunately, we were not royal, because there was an

16     unfortunate incident involving a nunnery a couple of centuries ago.  But

17     it is indeed the 12th of Foot, sir, yes.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

22        Q.   Mr. Bell, with regard to your testimony yesterday, among other

23     things, Dr. Karadzic discussed with you the control of Serb forces during

24     the period of time prior to 20 May 1992, and I have some questions for

25     you in that regard.

Page 9926

 1             First, at the transcript page 9807, from line 23, he asked you:

 2             "Would you agree that up to 20th May, the date of the pullout of

 3     the Yugoslav People's Army, the Territorial Defence was in place, as well

 4     as self-organised groups, without any centralised control or command?"

 5             And your answer was:

 6             "Yes, I would -- I would -- I would agree to that."

 7             Do you remember that question and giving that answer?

 8        A.   Yes.  I think I should have amplified that answer.

 9        Q.   In what regard?

10        A.   That the situation was different in different areas; that already

11     in April -- I mean, you've seen the -- you've seen the footage of this

12     today, that those soldiers in place on those positions above Sarajevo

13     were clearly under his control.  And it may have applied to areas of the

14     heartland, but as you saw in Zvornik, at the beginning of April that was

15     certainly not the case.

16        Q.   Well, indeed, then, my questions -- I'll continue with my

17     questions which relate to the Territorial Defence, which I've just quoted

18     to you, and Zvornik, which we'll come to, hopefully, quite shortly.  And

19     I just want to verify one thing.

20             At the time you were working in Bosnia, and you've alluded to

21     this today, were you privy to any internal communications or documents of

22     the Bosnian Serb Territorial Defence, or, in fact, any of the

23     Bosnian Serb organs, their Assembly, their National Defence Council, or

24     the Bosnian Serb Army?

25        A.   Certainly, none of the documents I've been shown from the high

Page 9927

 1     command on both sides, and, indeed, the United Nations documents, where I

 2     was not privy to any of that.  I must have attended a couple of meetings

 3     of the -- of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.  But, no, these -- virtually --

 4     all the documents I've seen today, apart from General MacKenzie's book,

 5     have been new to me.

 6        Q.   Then of the documents I'd like to show you today, I understand

 7     you have no reason to have seen them before, but I would like to display

 8     a couple of documents, and I'd like to know whether you believe they're

 9     consistent with this proposition I've just referred you to, that prior to

10     20 May, the Territorial Defence lacked any centralised control or

11     command.

12             And the first document is D304, e-court English page 20.  And for

13     the record, I can give you the B/C/S page.  That's page 31.

14             Mr. Bell, this is a transcript of the 14th Bosnian Serb Assembly

15     session, held on 27 March 1992.  Now, I'd like to direct your attention

16     in the English version, so you can see what I'm referring to, to the

17     penultimate paragraph that begins where Dr. Karadzic is speaking with the

18     following:

19             "A war in Bosnia will not solve anything.  If it breaks out, you

20     will get the plans.  But I urge you to immediately organise the people

21     within Territorial Defence units, headed by reserve officers, form

22     squads, platoons and crisis staffs, and engage retired officers.  This

23     must be done throughout our areas.

24             "The presidents of municipalities and executive boards will hold

25     the highest ranks in the crisis staffs, in addition to reserve officers."

Page 9928

 1             That's the first document I'd like to show you, and that's a

 2     speech by Dr. Karadzic or an excerpt from a speech.

 3             I'd like now, if I may, to go to Exhibit 325 -- or, pardon me,

 4     D325, which is a document of the Main Staff of the Army of the

 5     Republika Srpska, entitled "Analysis of the Combat Readiness and

 6     Activities of the Army of Republika Srpska in 1992," and it's dated

 7     April 1993.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go to page 152 in English and page 132

 9     in Serbian.

10        Q.   This document, Mr. Bell, has been signed as approved by

11     General Ratko Mladic, and here, at page 152 in English, we see a section

12     entitled "Concluding Remarks" to this report.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could just flip over the page to 153 in

14     English and 133 in Serbian.

15        Q.   You can see that the document has been also signed off as

16     approved by the supreme commander of the Armed Forces of

17     Republika Srpska, the accused, Dr. Karadzic.  Do you see that?

18        A.   I see that.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, if we could move over, please, to page 69 in

20     English and page 62 in Serbian.

21        Q.   Under the heading "Organisation and Establishment," I'd like to

22     ask you, Mr. Bell, to please read, if you can, the first three paragraphs

23     under this heading beginning:  "The organisation of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska is characterised by two periods ...," please.

25             Would you care to read it aloud for us.

Page 9929

 1        A.   "The organisation of the Army of Republika Srpska is

 2     characterised by two periods: the period up to 20 May or 15 June 1992,

 3     and the period after 15 June 1992.

 4             "The first period is significant, in that in the territory of the

 5     former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina up to 19 May, there existed and

 6     operated regular units of the former JNA, both those formed in that area

 7     during its mobilisation and operational development and those with which

 8     the developments in the republics of Slovenia and Croatia were withdrawn

 9     from their territories to the territory of the former Republic of Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina."

11             Do you wish me to go on?

12        Q.   To the end of this third paragraph, please.

13        A.   "At the same time, in the territory of Republika Srpska, as a

14     part of the former Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were also

15     the units of the Serbian Territorial Defence, formed on the initiative

16     and under the leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party, as a

17     self-organisational form of the Serbian people for defence against the

18     pro-fascist intention of the Ustasha and Muslim organisations and

19     military formations."

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what I would like to ask you, Mr. Bell, is:  Are

21     these two, effectively, statements by the accused, and the accused

22     together with his military commander, to your mind, consistent with the

23     assertion which you agreed with, that up to 20 May 1992, the

24     Territorial Defence was in place, quote, "without any centralised control

25     or command"?

Page 9930

 1        A.   Well, I have modified that answer in answer to your previous

 2     question.  I don't think it -- I mean, an army was not -- was not formed

 3     and organised overnight.  I think it would be hard to overstate the

 4     degree of chaos and anarchy in the early weeks of April 1992.  I mean,

 5     what I saw on the ground were bands of armed men on both sides.  Very

 6     often, there appeared to be -- they appeared to be undisciplined, they

 7     were improvised.  But I will accept that by early May, there probably was

 8     a degree of command and control in some areas, but it was -- you know,

 9     armies are not formed and organised overnight, not even in time of war,

10     I'd say almost especially not in time of war, because of the difficulties

11     of communication, among other things.

12        Q.   Now, you mentioned, when I began this redirect examination,

13     Zvornik, and I'd like to turn, actually -- if I could have the transcript

14     back on the screen, please -- turn more specifically to the control and

15     knowledge of events in Eastern Bosnia, which was something which you also

16     discussed yesterday with Dr. Karadzic.  And that appears on -- in

17     yesterday's transcript at line 9808, starting at line 25.  And there,

18     Dr. Karadzic asked you:

19             "Do you agree that all the way up to 20th May or later, there

20     were not enough opportunities to gain insight, let alone control over the

21     developments on the ground, I mean, primarily the events in Zvornik?  Is

22     it true that we were hardly able to find out what was going on, let alone

23     control it?"

24             And you answered:

25             "Dr. Karadzic, those were the very early days.  There was no

Page 9931

 1     Bosnian Serb Army in existence at that time."

 2             And you went on to note that it was part of the anarchy of the

 3     early days of the war.

 4             Now, as we've just done, I'd like to show you several documents.

 5     And I would presume these are documents you haven't seen or had reason to

 6     see, but I want to see if you believe them as previously to be consistent

 7     with Dr. Karadzic's assertion that he did not control or know about

 8     events in Zvornik, and your agreement that these took place in a time of

 9     anarchy.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  The first document is P961, and that is a

11     transcript of the 12th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, dated 24

12     March 1992.  And I'd like, please, to see e-court page 21 in English and,

13     I think, page 38 in B/C/S, which -- your indulgence for a moment -- where

14     you can see, at the bottom of the page on the English version, the very

15     bottom of the page, and one-third of the way down the page in Serbian,

16     that this is where Dr. Karadzic begins speaking.  This is an excerpt from

17     a speech by Dr. Karadzic.

18             If we could turn the page over in English, please.

19             Your indulgence for a moment.

20        Q.   In the English, Mr. Bell, the fourth complete -- fourth full

21     paragraph is where I would like to direct your attention.  There, you see

22     Dr. Karadzic say:

23             "At a desired moment, and this will be very soon, we can form

24     whatever we want.  There are reasons why this could happen in two or

25     three days, such are the forecasts, but I cannot tell you the reasons

Page 9932

 1     now.  At that moment, all the Serbian municipalities, both the old ones

 2     and the newly established ones, would literally assume control of the

 3     entire territory of the municipality concerned.  The Zvornik municipality

 4     takes control over everything that constitutes the Serbian municipality

 5     of Zvornik.  Then, at a given moment, in the next three or four days,

 6     there will be a single method used, and you will be able to apply it in

 7     the municipalities you represent, including both things that must be done

 8     as well as how to do them; how to separate the police force, take the

 9     resources that belong to the Serbian people, and take command."

10             Now, before we go on to the next document, Mr. Bell, do you

11     recall, in your testimony yesterday, in your report from Zvornik on

12     7 April, about two weeks after the date of this speech, you stated:

13             "The police force is split and front-lines are being established,

14     just as they were in Croatia nine months ago"?

15        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

16        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on to the next document, then.  It's --

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  May I say THAT it would be

18     fair to the witness to tell him this is within the context of the

19     conference where we were given the right to establish a police force and

20     national guards.  Otherwise, the witness is going to be misled.  He did

21     not read transcripts from our Assembly sessions.  This is after the

22     18th of March, when Cutileiro made us an offer; namely, that constituent

23     units would have their own police force and national guards,

24     respectively.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 9933

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  May I continue, please?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I continue?  Thank you.

 7             The next document bears the 65 ter number 00661.  That's a

 8     document from the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina, Crisis Staff, dated 5 April 1992, signed by the commander of

10     the Crisis Staff, Branko Grujic.

11        Q.   It's just a couple of days before the report you talked about.

12     You see it orders, among other things, the implementation, at point 1, of

13     the trial mobilisation of all units of the Territorial Defence of the

14     Serbian municipality of Zvornik.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I see that.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

17             If we could go on to the next document, 65 ter 00654, e-court

18     page 20 in English, and 17 in B/C/S.

19             This is an RS MUP report, Ministry of the Interior report, on the

20     work of the Zvornik Public Security Centre for the year 1992, and it was

21     written in January 1993.

22             Your indulgence for a moment.

23             THE WITNESS:  I am having difficulty reading that one, the

24     writing is so small.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  I wonder if there would be an objection from

Page 9934

 1     Dr. Karadzic if we collapsed the Serbian version so that we could expand

 2     the English version.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's do that for this document.

 4             THE WITNESS:  That's better.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6             The first page, first paragraph here, notes that:

 7             "As of early January 1992, a group of six SJB employees was in

 8     permanent contact with the Steering Committee of the Serbian Democratic

 9     Party.  The aim was to prepare the detaching of the SJB in the event of

10     the municipal territory being divided into a Serb and a Muslim part."

11             Could we now please go to e-court page 21 in English?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am afraid that taking sentences

13     out of an entire text is unfair on the witness yet again.  How can a

14     witness give comments regarding police documents without --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let's see how Mr. Bell can deal with this, and then,

16     if necessary, I will hear from you again.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18             At the bottom of this page, point B, it's just the first

19     paragraph up from the bottom, you see the notation that:

20             "On 4 April 1992, the chief and assistant chief of the SJB

21     (Serbs) went to a meeting of the Crisis Staff in Ugljevik in order to

22     make arrangements for further activities."

23             And then, finally, if we could go over to page 22 in English.

24     Thank you.

25             The third paragraph, we see -- from the top, we see the notation

Page 9935

 1     reading:

 2             "SJB personnel acting together with forces of the Serb

 3     TO/Territorial Defence entered Zvornik and took hold of the town's

 4     facilities on 8 April 1992."

 5             And I'd like to move to one further and final document on this

 6     point.  That's P956.  It's a transcript from the 16th Session of the

 7     Bosnian Serb Assembly on 12 May 1992, e-court page 3 in English and 3 in

 8     Serbian, another -- and if we -- at page 3, we can see, at the bottom of

 9     the page, that this reflects a point at which Dr. Karadzic is speaking.

10     So this is an excerpt from a speech by Dr. Karadzic.

11             And if we can go over to e-court page 8 in English and page 7 in

12     B/C/S, where we see Karadzic's speech continuing.

13             At the bottom of that very large paragraph -- and if you can just

14     indulge me for a moment.  Eleven lines up from the bottom, we see the

15     following.  Dr. Karadzic says:

16             "I must say that we're doing quite well.  Considering the forces

17     that we had at our disposal, we hold the positions we had rather well.

18     We hold all our areas, all the municipalities, all the settlements around

19     Sarajevo, and we hold our enemies -- now, I must and can say we hold our

20     enemies in complete encirclement, so that they cannot receive military

21     assistance either in manpower or weapons.  True, there are war conflicts

22     here and there.  In Doboj, they lasted a short time and ended

23     successfully for the Serbian side.  Along the Drina, they ended

24     successfully in Foca, Zvornik, and Visegrad."

25        Q.   Now, my question for you, Mr. Bell, in respect of these four

Page 9936

 1     documents, is whether you have, having listened to me and seeing the

 2     extracts from these documents, any further observations about

 3     Dr. Karadzic's assertion that he had no insight or control over events

 4     in, for example, Zvornik.

 5        A.   Ms. Edgerton, I've been struck, since I started giving evidence

 6     yesterday, by the discrepancy between some of the documents on both sides

 7     and what was actually happening on the ground.  And, of course, I did not

 8     have the access to the documents, but I did have access to what was

 9     happening on the ground, and I would have been surprised if there had not

10     been contingency plans and plans for mobilisation laid in March, when war

11     was certainly predictable.  I think the question is:  How effective were

12     these mobilisations in occurring?  How much control did both sides

13     actually have?

14             As you know, I went through Zvornik on the 7th, when it had not

15     been taken over by the Serbs, and I got back there either the 9th or the

16     10th.  I think if everything had gone according to plan with the

17     municipality authorities taking over, I can't see that there would have

18     been the need for Mr. Arkan and his volunteers.  They got in there --

19     they got in there somehow.  And as far as I'm pretty sure, they were

20     never very popular with Dr. Karadzic or, for that matter, the JNA.

21             So my broad answer is:  I find these documents absolutely

22     fascinating.  I wish I'd known about them at the time, but I'm not sure

23     they take sufficient account of the fog of war.

24        Q.   And moving on to the final area, and this derives from your

25     testimony earlier today, Dr. Karadzic asked you again about events in

Page 9937

 1     Zvornik, and you said at page 37, lines 2 to 5, that:

 2             "There was a pattern of events.  The peoples were -- and I'm sure

 3     this was not only in Zvornik.  People were expecting war.  The Serbs

 4     fled.  Serbian paramilitaries then entered the town, and then Muslims

 5     fled."

 6             Do you remember that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I then, please, have 65 ter 04199.

 9             This is an order dated 28 May 1992, issued to the Zvornik

10     Territorial Defence Staff by one Svetozar Andric, commander of the

11     Birac Brigade, and it's issued pursuant to an order on the organisation

12     of defence, dated 15 May 1992.

13        Q.   Could I ask you to have a look at item 6.  That reads:

14             "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and

15     co-ordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried

16     out.  Only women and children can move out, while men fit for military

17     service are to be placed in camps for exchange."

18             Now, Mr. Bell, I understand you, as you've just indicated, would

19     have had no reason to see documents like this at the time you formed your

20     views about the situation and events in Eastern Bosnia, but in light of

21     this, do you have any further observations about who was responsible for

22     the Muslims fleeing from Zvornik in the early part of the conflict?

23        A.   I can only go on the impressions I had at the time.  As you will

24     have seen from the video, I was in the company of large numbers of

25     refugees, hundreds, even thousands, in the course of the day.  They were

Page 9938

 1     all -- the story was they were all fleeing from brutality and from war.

 2     None of them made the allegation that they'd been -- that this was ethnic

 3     cleansing, in the sense that the Serbs were moving them out.  I'm

 4     surprised that any remained.  We don't know what numbers they're talking

 5     about in this document.

 6             But the sight of those women trembling with fear, when you would

 7     hear the guns in the background, they were -- they were refugees, not

 8     what the UN calls displaced people.  I mean, this is just what I felt at

 9     the time, and I -- and none of these documents changes my view.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to go to one final document, again

11     part -- or an extract from an Assembly session.  This one comes from the

12     53rd Republika Srpska Assembly session from 28 August 1995, and it's

13     P00988.  And if we could please go to page 69 in English, the top of

14     page 69.  This is another extract from a speech by Dr. Karadzic at this

15     Assembly.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope the Defence will be given an

17     opportunity to have a say.

18             JUDGE KWON:  On what, Mr. Karadzic, in general terms?  In

19     previous documents or --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This entire part of redirect on

21     documents that were not shown in full and taken out of context.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I said I would hear from you at the end of

23     re-examination.

24             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

Page 9939

 1             Actually, if you could go, Mr. Registrar, to page 68, at the very

 2     bottom of the page.  I can see that I've missed a small portion.  Very

 3     bottom of the page, please.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   This, as I said, is another extract of a speech from

 5     Dr. Karadzic, and the very last line of page 68 reads:

 6             "To tell the truth, there are towns that we've grabbed for

 7     ourselves ..."

 8             And if we could go over to page 69.

 9             "... there are towns that we've grabbed for ourselves, and there

10     were only 30 per cent of us.  I can name as many of those as you want,

11     but we cannot give up the towns where we made up 70 per cent.  Don't let

12     this get around, but remember how many of us were in Bratunac, how many

13     in Srebrenica, how many in Visegrad, how many in Rogatica, how many in

14     Vlasenica, in Zvornik, et cetera.  Due to strategic importance, they had

15     to become ours, and no one is practically questioning it anymore."

16             Now, Mr. Bell, Dr. Karadzic notes here that Zvornik and other

17     places in Eastern Bosnia were taken because of strategic importance, even

18     though they were only, as he says, "30 per cent of us," and I wonder if

19     this leads you to any further observations regarding the assertion he put

20     to you in your cross-examination, that he had no knowledge or control of

21     events in Zvornik and Eastern Bosnia.

22        A.   I don't think that in this speech, and I wish I'd known about

23     this speech some years ago -- when he says "we took," we were talking

24     about command and control when this redirect began, and Serbs did seize

25     places for themselves.  And I've -- I've -- it's been quite clear to me,

Page 9940

 1     even at the time, that in many of the places they took, they were

 2     actually a minority, but they were a better armed and better organised

 3     minority.  So I don't think it really goes to the issue of command and

 4     control, but it -- but it's certainly politically very illuminating, that

 5     they -- that they took these places for themselves, and I always thought

 6     that they had.  I mean, it's just the -- it actually doesn't surprise me

 7     at all.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9             Nothing further, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

11             I'm not quite sure, given his answers, you need to address the

12     Chamber, but I will hear from you, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I only wanted to say that the

14     speech before the Assembly concerning the national guard and the police

15     force derived from the offer of the European Union that our constituent

16     unit may have a national guard, and I was saying that we need not

17     establish it at once, it can wait.  This witness did not know about the

18     details of the conference on the 18th of March, and I believe you were

19     not even in Sarajevo when the Lisbon Agreement was made.  That's one.

20             And, two --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

22             Do you wish to put questions, specific questions, in relation to

23     the documents shown to the witness?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

25             JUDGE KWON:  What documents are you referring to?

Page 9941

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, for instance, the one we are

 2     looking at now.  Do you accept --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No.  This document only, or what else document

 4     you're going to raise?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to put questions

 6     on two or three documents.  But while this one is on the screen, I'd like

 7     to ask the witness if he knows the context in which this was being said.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll allow you to ask some questions in

11     relation to these documents in order to get some context of it; nothing

12     further, Mr. Karadzic.

13                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] First of all, regarding this speech, do you

15     agree that this is a political speech before the Assembly, the

16     Parliament, aimed at justifying the loss of Grahovo and Glamoc, a loss

17     that happened and which you observed?  At that time, Glamoc, Grahovo and

18     other Serb municipalities, such as Drvar, were lost, and we had to

19     justify it somehow, to make this political speech, to make the

20     Assemblymen swallow, as it were, more easily the loss of Serb

21     municipalities?

22        A.   Dr. Karadzic, as soon as I read this, I understood immediately

23     the context of the loss of Grahovo and Glamoc, and I remember you making

24     public statements at the time that, We must not lose any more

25     municipalities.  So, yes, it's -- it is a -- it's a political speech.

Page 9942

 1        Q.   The issue of organised moving out, of which Colonel Andric writes

 2     on the 28th of May, do you know that our representatives signed, on the

 3     22nd May, with the mediation of the High Commissioner for Refugees,

 4     Ms. Sadako Ogata, and made a commitment to provide organised escort for

 5     civilians who wished to leave certain territories to escape combat?  If

 6     you knew that, would you read this document differently?

 7        A.   I would conclude from my experience, Dr. Karadzic, that there is

 8     a sort of grey area between forcing people out of their homes and

 9     providing them escorts if they wish to leave.  It is possible to contract

10     situations in which they -- they wouldn't wish -- they wouldn't wish to

11     stay.  And I'm not talking just about this conflict, but about many

12     others.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Concerning the territorial defence of municipalities,

14     do you recall that the Law on Territorial Defence in Municipalities

15     vested in the president of the municipality command and control over

16     territorial units on his territory, and that every municipality had its

17     own territorial defence unit, and the president of municipality was the

18     president of the National Defence Council?

19        A.   Yes, I did understand that to be the case.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice that Branko Grujic was calling for the

21     general mobilisation of the Territorial Defence in Zvornik municipality

22     on the 5th of April, while Alija Izetbegovic had declared general

23     mobilisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 4th of April; that is to say,

24     the day before?  You were in Kupres, but this was a very well-known

25     declaration by Alija Izetbegovic.

Page 9943

 1        A.   Yes, all this happened -- I was not actually in Bosnia on the

 2     3rd or the 4th.  I arrived on the 5th or the 6th.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             No further questions.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Then it concludes your evidence, Mr. Bell.  On behalf of the

 8     Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for your coming to

 9     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  It has been a most

11     illuminating experience.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Have a nice trip back home.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, you've seen a great deal of me in

16     the last two weeks, but with your permission, I'd like to take my leave

17     now.  And I wonder if we could just have a few minutes for Ms. Sutherland

18     to take over my chair.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             I also would like to have a few minutes to address some problems

22     with respect to the next witness, concerning the scope and timing of his

23     testimony.  So maybe if -- I don't know if they're able to move around

24     while I'm speaking, or else we could take a break either before or after,

25     but I'd like to be heard before the witness comes into the courtroom.

Page 9944

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do you mind hearing from him now, Ms. Sutherland?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'd prefer just to move first so

 3     that I can focus on what he's going to say properly.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  We'll have a five minutes' break.

 5                           --- Break taken at 1.50 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             Mr. President, the object of this intervention is to ask that the

10     testimony of this next witness with respect to events in the area of

11     Velesici be excluded or limited.

12             And just to give you a brief history:  This is a witness who was

13     added to the Prosecution's witness list on motion and by decision of

14     18 May 2010, and at the time that he was added, it was represented that

15     he would be testifying only as to the Markale incident and the finding of

16     the prosthesis of his father.  Then -- that was on the 18th of May, 2010.

17             It wasn't until the 12th of November, 2010, when the 92 ter

18     package was filed, that there was a statement in the summary that the

19     witness will also testify to the shelling of the settlement of Velesici.

20     So that was not part of the grounds for which this witness was allowed to

21     have his -- give his testimony or to be added to the witness list.  Up

22     until that point, the only information that had been provided about

23     Velesici was paragraph 13 of the witness's statement, which said:

24             "Our family home was in the settlement of Velesici and which was

25     shelled repeatedly.  The famous intercept with Ratko Mladic, he orders

Page 9945

 1     the settlement to be shelled.  Our family home suffered damage as a

 2     result of this."

 3             Up until yesterday, that was the only information we had about

 4     what this witness knew or possibly could testify to.

 5             Yesterday, we also -- we received last night, actually, and I

 6     don't believe Dr. Karadzic received that until this morning, a

 7     four-page witness statement in which the witness elaborated, once again,

 8     on his evidence about Velesici.  He talks about damage to a relay

 9     antenna, the ethnic composition of the area, and military objects within

10     that area, and we don't feel that we've had enough notice to be able to

11     adequately cross-examine the witness on this topic.  And we also think

12     it's outside of the scope for which the witness was added.

13             And we would ask that, number 1, the Court exclude any testimony

14     with respect to Velesici, or if it does allow any testimony, that it be

15     limited to what was in his statement, which was what we had in our

16     possession up until last night.

17             Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could I hear from you, Ms. Sutherland?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, first of all.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  No, Your Honour, it's incorrect for

22     Mr. Robinson to say that the first that they heard about it was the

23     notification filed on the 12th of November.  As Your Honours know,

24     attached to the motion to add the witness was an Appendix A, which gave a

25     Rule 65 ter summary of what the witness would testify about, and in that

Page 9946

 1     65 ter summary, it was stated that he would give evidence about the

 2     shelling in Velesici, which was relevant to

 3     Scheduled Shelling Incident G1.

 4             When Your Honours gave the decision, your ruling, to allow this

 5     witness to testify, you clearly had the appendix before you, and you

 6     didn't limit the witness's evidence in any way.

 7             In the 92 ter notification, which we filed on the

 8     12th of November, again we summarised the witness's evidence in the

 9     65 ter filing and also added, as an exhibit -- an associated exhibit, the

10     Mladic intercept, and I think it's a bit late in the day to come,

11     four weeks later, with this objection.  They could have -- Mr. Robinson

12     or the accused could have filed something well before now in relation to

13     this.

14             In respect of the testimony that Mr. Robinson refers to, it's

15     three paragraphs in the witness's statement that I took yesterday.  As

16     you know, he was -- or you may not know.  He was due to travel on Sunday,

17     but was snowed in, and didn't arrive until late on Monday evening at

18     around midnight, and had a terrible night's sleep, and so the proofing

19     was put off until sometime yesterday afternoon, after which the statement

20     was taken.

21             The three paragraphs, as Mr. Robinson says, talk about the

22     ethnicity of the settlement where he comes from and the shelling, which

23     is detailed, which elaborates on what is contained in paragraph 13 of the

24     witness's original statement.

25             It's my submission that I shouldn't be estopped from asking

Page 9947

 1     questions in relation to the shelling of Velesici, nor in relation to the

 2     ethnic composition of the settlement.  It's clear, from the witness's

 3     statement, that he comes from that settlement.  It's in paragraphs 3,

 4     I think, and 13.  That's not new.  Perhaps the only sentence which the

 5     Defence haven't had notice of is in relation to the relay antenna on top

 6     of the Hum, which is one sentence out of three paragraphs.

 7             And I submit they're not prejudiced by that information, which

 8     was provided to them last night.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  When allowing a certain witness to be added to the

12     65 ter witnesses list, the Chamber usually does not limit the content of

13     the evidence, but, furthermore, more than that, given the notice given by

14     the OTP, the Chamber does not find it appropriate to limit the

15     examination-in-chief to a certain area.  But considering the lateness of

16     the disclosure, in particular what is disclosed this morning, the Chamber

17     is minded to order the Prosecution to lead evidence live as regards those

18     parts going to - I beg my pronunciation - Velesici, not relying on the

19     65 ter statement, so that it will be easier for the Defence to follow the

20     evidence and to cross-examine the witness.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             So when I call up the 65 ter number, which will be 20302 [sic],

23     I think, it's redacting paragraphs 18 to 20 and leading that evidence

24     live.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 9948

 1             Let's bring in the witness.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I said or it's in the transcript

 3     "20302."  I meant to say 90203, and that is the 65 ter number which

 4     contains both statements, which Your Honours will become aware of

 5     shortly.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

 9             Mr. President, we would object to the using of the statement

10     taken last night as an exhibit.  We're supposed to be given 48 hours'

11     notice, for one thing, of Rule 92 ter.  It's understandable that they

12     would have some additional questions when a witness corrects his

13     statement, but I don't think that that should be admitted.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I take it to be a correction.  And if we are hearing

15     any evidence in relation to Velesici live, I don't think there would be

16     serious opposition on the part of the Defence.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  I think, as a matter of practice, the whole

18     statement ought to be -- the contents of the whole statement ought to be

19     taken live.  When we receive it on the morning of the witness's

20     appearance, I don't think that that's a good -- that's fair, to have

21     something exhibited when it's just been given to us the same morning.  If

22     they want to lead any corrections, they should have to do the whole thing

23     live, in my opinion.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with you.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 9949

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Begic, good afternoon.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  If you could take the solemn declaration, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  ALMIR BEGIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Please be seated.  Make yourself comfortable.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I take it, Ms. Sutherland, you understood what I

12     meant.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             Just to be clear, then, the corrections and the clarifications to

15     the statement, you want me to lead the whole thing, which will take quite

16     some additional time.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Sure.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So I just want to let you know that.

19                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

20        Q.   Good afternoon.  Could you state your full name for the record?

21        A.   Almir Begic.

22        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you recall giving a statement to a representative

23     of the Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal earlier this year?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 90203, please.

Page 9950

 1        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you recognise that statement?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could scroll to the bottom of the

 3     statement.

 4        Q.   Is that your statement -- signature at the bottom of the

 5     statement?

 6        A.   Yes, it's my signature.

 7        Q.   You reviewed this statement yesterday; that is, the statement was

 8     read to you.  And you wanted to make a number of corrections and

 9     clarifications; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   And an additional short statement was taken from you, setting out

12     those corrections and clarifications, was it not?

13        A.   Yes, that's right.

14        Q.   I'm going to lead you through all of those corrections and

15     clarifications, so if you can bear with me.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But if I can go through this statement now, to

17     the second page, and the third, and then the fourth page, down on the

18     bottom.  Okay.

19             And that's the extent of that statement, that four pages.  If we

20     can go back to the beginning, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Begic, one of the corrections was to the actual date of the

22     interview on the cover page.  It says the "15th of March, 2010."  When

23     you reviewed this statement yesterday, you could see that you had signed

24     the statement and dated it the 15th of April, 2010, is that correct, and,

25     therefore, you wanted to correct the date of the interview on this front

Page 9951

 1     cover?

 2             Mr. Begic, you need to actually state your answer for the record.

 3             Is that correct?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Also, the way that your father's name has been spelled throughout

 6     the statement, there are some differences in some of the places

 7     throughout the statement, using the wrong diacritic on the first letter

 8     of his name.  His name is spelled with a C-a-m-i-l, with a diacritic "ch"

 9     on the C; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   In paragraph 2, the word "Jablanica" is spelled incorrectly.  You

12     wanted to correct the spelling of that.  The correct spelling is

13     J-a-b-l-a-n-i-c-a, is it not?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct.

15        Q.   The sentence which states:

16             "In 1961," and this is in paragraph 2 of the statement, "he was

17     late for work, at" should read "as he was trying to catch a train and

18     trying to catch the back of the train, he fell.  And as his foot was

19     caught and severed his right foot at the ankle ..."

20             You wish to replace those two sentences with:

21             "In 1961, he was trying to catch a train when he got his foot

22     caught in a part of the train.  As a result, he immediately lost some

23     toes.  His foot was later amputated in the hospital."

24             Is that right?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.

Page 9952

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 2             Mr. Begic, do you understand English?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm sorry.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly take off your headphones for a

 5     moment.  Thank you.

 6             Until I heard your objection, Mr. Robinson, I didn't read, in

 7     full, the recent additional witness statement.  But having heard these

 8     corrections, do we really need to hear them live?  Has it not been our

 9     practice to allow some corrections to be made and to be tendered

10     through -- whether it's a proofing note for the statement, to be tendered

11     and admitted?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             I wasn't actually having in mind spelling mistakes.  I thought,

14     with respect to the substantive corrections that he made, that they would

15     go through that --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you identify substantive corrections that

17     should be led live, in your opinion?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  I think at paragraph 16, paragraph 17,

19     paragraph 13, paragraphs 18 through 20, and I think also paragraphs 9 and

20     10, also paragraph 7.  That's the substantive material that I had in

21     mind.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So 7, 9, 10, 13, 16 to 20?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  But if you disagree, then I will defer to

24     you, but that's more what I had in mind than correcting spelling

25     mistakes.

Page 9953

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We don't have time to go through it.  So otherwise,

 2     you're happy to admit it?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's follow that suggestion, Ms. Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So to be clear, Your Honours, the statement that

 6     was taken yesterday will be admitted, except for the paragraphs that

 7     Mr. Robinson has just read out?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, yes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So if we could turn to page 6 of 95 ter --

10     92 ter 90203.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So the witness needs to take his headphone again,

12     but I don't know how to say it to him.

13             Mr. Begic -- we have body language.  Thank you, Mr. Begic, for

14     your understanding.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you see in front of you, on the screen, the

17     statement that was taken from you yesterday?  Do you see your signature

18     and yesterday's date there on the first page?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go through the statement, page 2,

21     and page 3, and following.  Page 4.  Page 5.  I think page 6 simply has

22     the interpreter's certification on it.

23        Q.   Mr. Begic, I'm now going to have to lead you through a number of

24     these clarifications and corrections that you wanted to make.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So this statement is not coming into evidence in

Page 9954

 1     its entirety, but with the clarifications, so, Your Honour, I think I

 2     will leave until the end to admit the statements.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's do that, yes.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  With Your Honour's leave, I will read out a

 5     short summary of the witness's evidence.

 6             The witness is a resident of Sarajevo -- and this is,

 7     Your Honour, on the presumption that the first statement is going to be

 8     tendered into evidence.

 9             The witness is a resident of Sarajevo and the son of a victim,

10     Camil Begic, who died as a result of injuries suffered in the

11     Markale market shelling --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Thank you for reading slowly.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- on 5th February 1994, which is

14     Scheduled Shelling Incident G8.  The witness's father wore the prosthetic

15     leg shown in the video played by the accused during his opening statement

16     on 1 March 2010, and was wearing it at the time of his death.  The

17     witness will describe his search for his father after the explosion and

18     the recovery of his father's prosthetic leg.  He will also provide

19     evidence of other victims of the Scheduled Shelling Incident G8.

20             Mr. Begic will also testify to the shelling of the settlement of

21     Velesici from May 1992, which is part of Scheduled Shelling Incident G1.

22        Q.   Mr. Begic, I want to ask you some questions in relation to

23     Velesici.

24             In paragraph 13 of your April 2010 statement, you state that your

25     family home was in the settlement of Velesici and that it was damaged as

Page 9955

 1     a result of shelling.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could just call up 65 ter 13567, which

 3     is a map of Sarajevo, Map 8 in the Sarajevo map booklet.  If we could

 4     focus on the top right-hand side of the map.

 5        Q.   Mr. Begic, are you able to locate for the Judges the settlement

 6     of Velesici on this map?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could zoom in a little bit more.

 8        Q.   If you could describe for the Judges any landmarks that it's

 9     near, that would be helpful.

10        A.   It's not very legible, this map.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we zoom in a little bit further, please,

12     closer.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we zoom in further, Mr. Begic?  We can do

14     that.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's fine, it's fine.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My neighbourhood is roughly --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until the Usher comes to you to

19     assist you.  Yes.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right, I see it.  This is my

21     neighbourhood [marks].

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   And can you -- thank you very much.  So you're pointing to -- or

24     you just circled the settlement of Velesici on the map, which is just to

25     the left of the Kosevo Stadium; is that correct?

Page 9956

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  I've finished with that map.

 3             Your Honour, I don't intend to tender the map.  I just wanted to

 4     locate it for Your Honours.

 5        Q.   Mr. Begic, can you describe the settlement, how the settlement

 6     was composed, the ethnic composition?

 7        A.   I think that 60 per cent of the population was Muslim and 30 to

 8     40 per cent were Serbs or, rather, all the rest.

 9        Q.   When do you recall the shelling of Velesici beginning?

10        A.   I think it was as soon as the war started.  I think it could have

11     been May.

12        Q.   1992?

13        A.   Yes, 1992.

14        Q.   Can you describe the damage to the buildings?

15        A.   Well, most of the houses in the settlement were damaged.  Some

16     were hit directly and others were damaged by shrapnel.  For example, my

17     house was not hit directly by a shell, but it was damaged by shrapnel.

18        Q.   What was the intensity of the shelling?

19        A.   Very high.

20        Q.   What sort of buildings were damaged during the shelling?

21        A.   The settlement of Velesici consists of private homes, for the

22     most part.  There are some public buildings as well, but most of them are

23     private houses.

24        Q.   In paragraph 13 of your statement, you refer to the famous

25     intercept of Ratko Mladic.

Page 9957

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could play, please, 65 ter 301 -- 30810,

 2     please, which is Exhibit P01518.  If we could have the transcript of that

 3     exhibit number on the screen, please.

 4        Q.   Mr. Begic, can you see the transcript of a document on the

 5     screen?  Can you review that document?

 6        A.   Yes, I see it, and I can review it.

 7             I have reviewed it.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Go to page 2 of the B/C/S, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   Is this consistent with the intercept that you were referring to

12     in your statement in paragraph 13?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And how did you become familiar with that?

15        A.   It was in the media; radio, television, newspapers.

16        Q.   Did you hear it on the radio?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And the timing of the shelling of Velesici, what was that in

19     relation to the date of this intercept that you heard on the radio?

20        A.   I cannot answer that question with any certainty.

21        Q.   So you said a moment ago in your evidence that the shelling of

22     Velesici started in May 1992.  Can you describe the duration of the

23     shelling on that settlement?

24        A.   It began at the very beginning of the war and lasted throughout,

25     until the end of the war.  I'm not sure if I can say there was one day

Page 9958

 1     when we were not shelled.  I believe at least two, three, five shells

 2     were fired at Velesici every day.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  I've finished with that exhibit.

 4        Q.   Mr. Begic, I want to turn to February 1994.

 5             Your father, Camil Begic, where did he work?

 6        A.   He worked in a company called Duhanpromet that employed

 7     exclusively war invalids from the previous war.  85 to 90 per cent of all

 8     employees were disabled persons.

 9        Q.   And in your statement, you state that your father was also

10     disabled.  Can you briefly describe the disability?

11        A.   Yes.  My father had a disabled right leg.  He did not have his

12     right foot, but his prosthesis went up to the knee.

13        Q.   Was your father a member of the military?

14        A.   No, no, he couldn't have been.  He was an invalid.

15        Q.   When was the last time you saw your father alive?

16        A.   On the 5th of February, that tragic day.  That morning, he left

17     home around 10.00, and that was the last time I saw him.

18        Q.   Where was he going?

19        A.   He went to his work in Duhanpromet company, which was located in

20     Skenderija.  His company was supposed to be moved, and he and a group of

21     workers went to work to prevent this eviction, because it was an

22     eviction.

23        Q.   Did you subsequently find out where he went after leaving his

24     work-place on the 5th of February?

25        A.   I found out that he got killed at the market when my neighbour,

Page 9959

 1     Senad, came to my door and said that my father was seriously wounded.

 2     That's when I first learned he had been to the market.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could play Exhibit -- this is a Defence

 4     document or exhibit, D -- 1D --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Can I ask, Ms. Sutherland, how long would you need

 6     to conclude your examination-in-chief?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  At least half an hour, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  In that case, we better adjourn for today.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it was my understanding that

12     today's court session could be extended a bit further.  Maybe it's a

13     misunderstanding, but that's at least what I understood, that it would be

14     possible.

15             I'm a bit concerned because of our videolink.  Given the times

16     that are meant for cross-examination, it should be fine, but we never

17     know about technical matters that may come up.  Therefore, I'm a bit

18     concerned whether we could proceed a bit longer so that the

19     examination-in-chief could be concluded today.  But it's just a proposal

20     and a concern I have.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That's a good point.

22             I wonder whether it would be okay to have a short break and

23     then -- because the tape, we need to take a break in any event.  We'll

24     take a break for 15 minutes and resume at 10 to 3.00, if it is agreeable

25     to everybody, and we'll just -- we'll conclude the examination-in-chief.

Page 9960

 1             And we begin with the next witness tomorrow or we continue to

 2     hear evidence of this witness?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if it was possible to sit for the

 4     hour and a half that was intimated we may be able to sit for today, then

 5     we would be able to finish the examination and cross-examination of

 6     Mr. Begic today.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8             One of the problems is we didn't have enough notice of some of

 9     these topics to really begin the cross-examination today.

10             JUDGE KWON:  According to the Chamber's calculation, we thought

11     we would be able to finish -- we will be able to finish the next witness

12     tomorrow, given some slippage into tomorrow of this witness, but let's do

13     that.  We conclude today the examination-in-chief only, and we'll

14     continue with cross-examination of this witness tomorrow.

15             We'll have a break for 15 minutes and resume at 10 to 3.00.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I appreciate the understanding of all the staff

18     members.  Thank you very much.

19                           --- Recess taken at 2.38 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 2.53 p.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  When it was decided that it was impossible to sit on

22     the morning of 8th of December, due to the Judges' plenary, we decided we

23     might extend today's sitting a bit further, but my impression is that

24     decision hasn't been fully communicated to the staff.  I appreciate the

25     staff's flexibility to kindly accommodate the Chamber's need.

Page 9961

 1             Having said that, let's continue, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Begic, I just want to go back to clarify something that you

 4     wanted to clarify, in fact, in your statement, and that was on the

 5     5th of February.  In your statement, at paragraph 3, it says that your

 6     father didn't leave the family house with Muhamed Borovina, as stated,

 7     but he left alone and met Muhamed Borovina at the company office; is that

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, that's right.

10        Q.   And how did you know that he met Muhamed Borovina at the office

11     at Duhanpromet?

12        A.   Because he told me, as he was leaving, that he was meeting

13     Muhamed Borovina and that they were going to their work together.

14        Q.   Did you later talk to someone who had seen your father and

15     Borovina at the market?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   Who was that?

18        A.   Enko Sanderovic [phoen].

19        Q.   And where had you been that morning?

20        A.   Also at the market-place, the shopping centre, and I left a

21     couple of minutes before Enko, towards the Eternal Flame, and I was by

22     the Eternal Flame when the shell fell on Markale.

23        Q.   How far is the Trznica Market from the Markale Market?  What is

24     the distance between the two markets, the market that you were in the

25     morning and the market -- the Markale Market, where your father was?

Page 9962

 1        A.   Markale is not the shopping centre, it's a market, and the

 2     shopping centre is a couple of hundred metres from the Markale Market.

 3        Q.   Was the market a usual day on the 5th of February, as you

 4     remember?

 5        A.   Yes, right.  Markets were very, very busy at all times, because

 6     our entire lives revolved around them.  Markets were the only place where

 7     you could find something to survive, to trade, to swap, so all the

 8     markets in Sarajevo - we had four or five of them - were very busy.

 9        Q.   And you mentioned that you were walking home.  In paragraph 4 of

10     your statement, you said that you heard an explosion.  Is that right?

11        A.   Yes, right.

12        Q.   And as you were walking home, did you know that it was the

13     Markale Market that had been shelled?

14        A.   Not right away.  I was close to home when they reported about

15     that on the news, so I knew already that there was a major massacre at

16     Markale.

17        Q.   That was before you got home, somebody had told you this?

18        A.   Yes.  I was on the way home, and some of the citizens had already

19     heard it on the news, and news spread very quickly in Sarajevo, somebody

20     told me on the way.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we now play the video-clip, 1D01031, which

22     is a clip from Mr. Karadzic's opening.

23        Q.   Mr. Begic, can you just watch this clip, please.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 9963

 1        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you recall when you saw that clip for the first

 2     time?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.  Very soon after the explosion, maybe the next day,

 4     maybe the day after.  I'm not quite sure, but this clip has been shown

 5     time and again for years now.

 6        Q.   In paragraph 1 of your statement, you mention that Risto Djogo

 7     played some footage of the Markale Market.  Do you recall saying that in

 8     your statement?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Do you also recall, in paragraph 10 of your statement, saying

11     that you watched, with horror and shock, Radovan Karadzic's opening

12     statement on the 1st of March, 2010?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Do you recall now seeing the footage that has been just been

15     played as part of Mr. Karadzic's opening?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   The prosthetic that we saw in the video, do you recognise that?

18        A.   I recognise it.  It's my father's prosthetic leg.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that video-clip.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That video was already marked for identification as

21     D894.  It was tendered through Mr. Besic, Sead Besic, on 9th of December.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             And for the record, the video-clip excerpt that I played was

24     00:00:08 to 00:01:01.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 9964

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter 23035 [Realtime transcript

 2     read in error "23025"], please.

 3             That's not the right exhibit.  It's 23035, and my apologies for

 4     giving the wrong 65 ter number.

 5        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you recognise that as a still from the video-clip

 6     that we just saw?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that photograph.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to show him the next page?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I was hoping there was two

11     pages, but I just see it's "1 of 1" on the screen.

12             JUDGE KWON:  It has the second page.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Mr. Begic, again, do you recognise that still?

15        A.   I do.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I tender those stills?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, they will be admitted.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this document shall be assigned

19     Exhibit P2046.  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, I wish to play now three short

21     clips of 65 ter 40109.  These four clips were, in fact, shown through

22     Witness Besic on Friday during re-examination, but I wish to show a

23     couple of seconds either side of the footage that was showed to Mr. Besic

24     to show the context for the witness.

25             So the first video-clip I wish to show is 00 -- from 00:03:30 to

Page 9965

 1     00:03:50, and we could do that in Sanction, Your Honours.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could pause there.

 4        Q.   Mr. Begic, is that the -- or do you recognise that, what's in the

 5     middle of the screen now?  And we have stopped at 00:03:49.3.

 6        A.   I do.  It's my father's prosthesis.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The next clip is 00:08:00 to 00:08:13.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Again, Mr. Begic, we stopped at 00:08:10.3.  Do you recognise

11     what's in that frame?

12        A.   Yes, I recognise it.

13        Q.   What is it?

14        A.   My father's prosthetic leg.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The third clip is from 00:10:17 to 00:10:32.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Again, Mr. Begic, we've stopped at 00:10:28.5.  Do you recognise

19     what's on that still?

20        A.   Yes, my father's prosthesis.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, again, the last clip is 00:24:24 to

22     00:25:10.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Mr. Begic, again, do you remember -- do you recognise what was

Page 9966

 1     shown in that short video-clip?  And what was it?

 2        A.   Yes, I recognised my father's prosthesis.

 3        Q.   You said that your neighbour told you, Senad Kunovac, that your

 4     father had been injured.  Do you know where he was at that time when you

 5     were told?

 6        A.   Yes.  He told me that his sister had called him from

 7     Kosevo Hospital and told him that my father was wounded and he was

 8     transferred to the UNPROFOR's hospital which was located in Stup, in the

 9     PTT building.

10        Q.   And did you go to the French hospital?

11        A.   Yes, I did, sometime in the evening between 6.00 and 8.00.  I

12     know it was dark, and it was very difficult to get inside that hospital.

13     When I got in, my father was already dead.

14        Q.   What time did you arrive at the hospital?

15        A.   I can't tell you the exact time, but I believe it was between

16     6.00 and 8.00 p.m. that same day.

17        Q.   Did you see your father's body at the hospital?

18        A.   No, I did not see it in the UNPROFOR's hospital.  I saw it only

19     in the mortuary of the Kosevo Hospital.

20        Q.   Can you describe the scene in the morgue when you arrived at the

21     Kosevo Hospital?

22        A.   The morgue was full of bodies.  It was very, very hard to watch

23     that whole scene.  I looked at my father.  I was inside for about five,

24     six minutes, and I examined my father and his wounds.

25        Q.   What were the wounds that you saw?

Page 9967

 1        A.   Wounds on his legs, and one on his right side here near the

 2     kidney [indicating].

 3        Q.   Did he have his prosthetic leg on?

 4        A.   No, he did not.

 5        Q.   Did you see Muhamed Borovina's body at the morgue?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you come to learn of the extent of his injuries?

 8        A.   I did.  I found out from his brothers that he was in a very bad

 9     way, that shrapnel literally tore him to pieces.

10        Q.   You said, in paragraph 6 of your statement, that Muhamed's body

11     must have been partially protecting your father's body.  Can you just

12     explain how you came to that assumption?

13        A.   I supposed so, because they had been together, and my father was

14     hit by much less shrapnel than Muhamed.  That's why I supposed that

15     Muhamed was standing next to him, and most of the shrapnel hit Muhamed

16     and tore him to pieces.

17        Q.   When, in your statement, you say that you buried your father the

18     next day, when did you do this?  What time of the day?

19        A.   It was the next day, at 1700 hours, in Budakovici.  Most of the

20     funerals were done at night because of the shelling.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter 23007, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you recognise this document as a document that you

23     were shown in April 2010?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   And you went through that list and identified some people that

Page 9968

 1     had been killed or wounded; is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   One of them was Nura Odzak.  What was her occupation?

 4        A.   It's a woman, Nura Odzak.  I don't know what her occupation was,

 5     but I met her son, and every anniversary of the massacre in Markale, I

 6     see this young man.  So I did not know the mother.  I just know the son.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And for Your Honours' and the accused's benefit,

 8     this is referred to in paragraph 7 of the April 2010 statement.

 9        Q.   Another person you identified was Ruzdija Trbic, and the name

10     "Ruzdija" is spelled incorrectly in your statement with an S, as opposed

11     to a "zh," Z.  What is the gender of this person?

12        A.   Ruzdija Trbic was a man.  He's the father of a friend of mine,

13     Mustafa Trbic.

14        Q.   Do you know what his occupation was?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Muhamed Borovina you also identified as the person that worked

17     with your father in the firm that employed the disabled people; is that

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.  Muhamed Borovina was our family friend, and

20     my father had known him for a great many years.

21        Q.   You also identified as being wounded Muradif Celik and

22     Kenan Suvalija; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I was given a list to see if I can remember

24     anyone from that list.  Muradif I know is a relative of my wife's, so I

25     remember that last name, and Kenan Suvalija, his father was the director,

Page 9969

 1     the headmaster, of my primary school.  That's how I remember him.

 2        Q.   And you say in paragraph 7 of your statement that he is a

 3     70 per cent invalid; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Did you know the occupation of Muradif Celik?

 6        A.   He was a retired policeman.  He used to work for many years in

 7     police.  He had some sort of a grave injury and had been retired for many

 8     years.

 9        Q.   I want to focus now on how you recovered the prosthetic.  Can you

10     just briefly explain to the Court how you did that?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, do you like to tender that?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit P2047.  Thank you.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Mr. Begic, can you briefly tell the Court how you came to recover

18     your father's prosthetic?

19        A.   Yes, naturally.  Several days after that, three or four days

20     following the massacre, I went to the shopping centre.  There, I found a

21     man who was an employee, and I told him that I wanted to find some

22     belongings of my father, including the prosthesis that I had seen on TV.

23     He took me to a small room, where there were all kinds of items collected

24     after the massacres at Markale.  I recognised my father's prosthetic leg,

25     and I took it.  I also took a notebook of my father's that I found there,

Page 9970

 1     and I have it with me.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have 65 ter 23057.

 3        Q.   Mr. Begic, I'm going to show you three photographs, and can you

 4     tell me if you recognise what's in the photograph?

 5             Mr. Begic, this is -- I'm advised by Mr. Reid if we could go to

 6     Sanction, please.

 7             Mr. Begic, do you recognise what's in this photograph?  And this

 8     is 65 ter 23057.

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  This is the prosthesis that I took to the office of

10     The Hague Tribunal in Sarajevo.

11        Q.   Do you recall when this was?

12        A.   Yes.  Some 15 days ago, roughly.

13        Q.   Who took this photograph?

14        A.   The gentleman from the office of The Hague Tribunal, Paul Grade

15     [as interpreted].

16        Q.   Paul Grady?

17        A.   Yes, that's who I had in mind.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could look at the next 65 ter number,

19     23058.

20        Q.   Do you recognise what's in that photograph?

21        A.   Yes, certainly.

22        Q.   What is it?  If you can just describe it, please.

23        A.   It's the same prosthesis that we've been talking about the entire

24     time, except that in this picture we can see holes made by shrapnel.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could look at the last 65 ter number,

Page 9971

 1     23060.

 2        Q.   And, again, for the record, Mr. Begic, is that the prosthetic

 3     again from another angle?

 4        A.   Yes, the same prosthetic limb.

 5        Q.   And the blue writing at the bottom of the prosthetic, can you

 6     just explain what that is?

 7        A.   Yes, certainly.  Paul wrote this.  He put some sort of a mark, I

 8     suppose something that is some sort of a reference here for the Tribunal.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think we can see the date, "20th of November,

10     2010."

11             Your Honour, I don't know whether you wish -- whether it's easier

12     to tender these as a composite exhibit or separately, the three

13     photographs into one exhibit, or have them as separate exhibits --

14             JUDGE KWON:  If convenient, if possible, we can admit it as one

15     exhibit.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   And, Mr. Begic, this is the prosthetic leg that you recovered

18     from the Markale Market which belonged to your father; is that right?

19        A.   Yes, that's correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  These pictures will be admitted as Exhibit P2047 --

21     28.  Thank you.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Just one correction for the transcript.

23             This photo should be admitted as Exhibit P2048.  Thank you.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could place 65 ter 23035 on the

25     left-hand side of the screen, and 23057, which is now part of

Page 9972

 1     Exhibit P02048 -- I'm sorry, it's 65 ter 23060.

 2        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you see what's in front of you on the screen?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   Do both of these pictures depict the same prosthetic leg which

 5     belonged to your father?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And how do you know that it's the same leg?

 8        A.   Well, look at the picture on the left, where it says that this is

 9     a prosthesis before the explosion, which is a sheer lie.  Do you see the

10     hole?  I don't know if I can point it to you on this picture.  But if you

11     compare the hole on the picture on the left side with the hole on the

12     picture on the right side, then you'll see it.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I could ask the witness to take

14     the pen, with the Usher's assistance -- sorry, it's not possible.

15             Your Honour, if I could tender this composite -- these two

16     photographs as one exhibit.  If we could take a photograph of that,

17     please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Is that possible?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Reid can do it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  This will be admitted as Exhibit P2049.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   And, Mr. Begic, just to be clear, the video footage that we

23     showed earlier that was -- that you recognised as the video footage that

24     was shown during Mr. Karadzic's opening, and then the four video-clips

25     that we saw with your father's prosthetic leg, you recognised where that

Page 9973

 1     was, didn't you?

 2        A.   Yes, certainly.

 3        Q.   Where was that?

 4        A.   At the market.  I don't know if I understood you well.  Are you

 5     asking about the place where he died?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   Right now, I can't see that picture in front of me.  That is the

 8     picture that you showed earlier with the prosthesis, and I think that

 9     that is exactly the location where my father died.

10        Q.   But the photo on the left-hand side of what you can see now on

11     your screen, what you're saying is that is the Markale Market; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes, certainly, the Markale Market.  I think that this picture

14     was made after the shell exploded.

15        Q.   And my final question is:  Can you describe the psychological

16     impact of the Markale shelling on you and your family and your friends in

17     the community, briefly?

18        A.   Those were very difficult moments.  One only thinks about how to

19     survive in war.  Naturally, this affects you psychologically, especially

20     since there was hunger in Sarajevo.  The main goal of everybody was just

21     to survive.  It is very difficult to explain this to you, but at that

22     time it was extremely difficult to be a resident of Sarajevo; I mean,

23     during wartime.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             I have one more formality, and that is to -- now that -- because

Page 9974

 1     your earlier statement is going to be admitted into evidence, I need to

 2     ask you a couple of questions.

 3             So does your April 2001 statement, with the corrections that you

 4     made to it yesterday, and your evidence today correcting and clarifying

 5     things in your 2010 statement, does that -- I'm sorry, I said

 6     "April 2001."  I meant April 2010.  Does that -- is that -- does that

 7     represent an accurate statement of events, as you recall them?

 8        A.   Let me tell you, I think that there were a lot of mistakes in the

 9     statement of 15th of April, 2010.  I told you yesterday about it.  I

10     don't know whether it was a case of bad interpretation or something else,

11     but given that I don't speak English, I think that, yes, there were some

12     deficiencies in the statements that I gave in Sarajevo, unlike in the

13     statement that I gave here yesterday.

14        Q.   And with the corrections that you had in the statement that you

15     gave yesterday and the clarifications and corrections that you've given

16     during your testimony today, is that an accurate statement of the events,

17     as you recall them?

18        A.   Yes, certainly.

19        Q.   If you were asked the same questions again about -- which gave

20     rise to that written evidence, would your answers be the same?

21        A.   Yes, certainly.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

23             Your Honour, I would ask that 65 ter 90203, which is the

24     witness's 2010 -- April 2010 statement, and also the statement from the

25     14th of December, 2010, with the relevant redactions, be admitted into

Page 9975

 1     evidence.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  They will be both admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, these two documents shall be

 4     assigned Exhibit P2050 and P2051.  Thank you.  Respectively, of course.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, since one clarifies the other, is

 7     it not possible to put them together as one exhibit?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We just admitted it as two exhibits, but let's move

 9     on.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's all I have.

11             JUDGE KWON:  There are some further associated exhibits to be

12     tendered?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             The 92 ter notification, filed on the 12th of November,

15     Appendix A, I seek to have all of the associated exhibits listed there.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We already admitted 23007, so we'll admit

17     23006.  And then there are from 23004 to 23012, certificate of burial,

18     death certificate, certificate -- those were not discussed in his

19     statement.  But if there's no challenges from the Defence, we'll admit

20     them.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  All those will be admitted and given a number by the

23     Court Deputy and circulated to the parties in due course.

24             So we'll adjourn for today, and we'll resume at 9.00 with this

25     witness.

Page 9976

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I am just concerned about one point.

 2             The Trial Chamber has granted one hour cross-examination for the

 3     witness, but, of course, there are now a few additional things discussed.

 4     If the position changes in relation to that timing, I get a bit concerned

 5     about the videolink and whether it's perhaps advisable to have the

 6     videolink witness first, interposing this witness.  But that's just my

 7     caution.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I think one hour is more than sufficient for your

 9     cross-examination, yes.

10             We'll start with Mr. Begic tomorrow at 9.00.

11             In the meantime, Mr. Begic, you are not supposed to discuss about

12     your testimony with anybody else.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Have a pleasant evening.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.38 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of

18                           December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.