Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9977

 1                           Thursday, 16 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Begic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let's start your cross-examination.

10                           WITNESS:  ALMIR BEGIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

13             Good morning to all.

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Begic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   I hope that we will have enough time to shed more light on all

18     the questions that you came here to testify about.

19             Tell me, where did you exactly live in Velesici?

20        A.   To this day, I live in Muhameda Efendija Bandzije, and that is

21     the former Lovcenska.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at a city map.  You can actually show that

23     location, can you not?

24        A.   I think I can.

25        Q.   Is that Gornji or Donji Velesici?

Page 9978

 1        A.   Donji Velesici.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P815.  In e-court,

 3     P815.

 4             Can I now please ask for this central part, the right-hand center

 5     of this map, to be zoomed in.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the quality of this exhibit is as good

 7     as the other one.  How about trying 13567.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I trust your knowledge, so let's

 9     have that map.

10             Let us try to zoom in on that very same part above these red

11     numbers.  Right, that would be it.  Now the left half, if possible.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We saw Velesici in the upper left.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, yes, the central part

14     now, could all of that be enlarged.  All right.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you see your own coordinates on this map, Mr. Begic?

17        A.   Yes, this is Velesici [indicating].

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to ask you --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, not that part, the central

20     part.

21             Could you go down a bit more.  Thank you.  I think we have all we

22     need now.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   And could you please wait for the pen to be activated for you.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 9979

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put a small X on the location where

 2     your house was and where it still is; right?

 3        A.   Roughly, somewhere around here [marks].

 4        Q.   Thank you.  What are these buildings right below the circle that

 5     you described?

 6        A.   The Bosnalijek factory.

 7        Q.   Can you put a circle around it and put a number there?  Let's say

 8     number 2.  Let your house be number 1 and Bosnalijek number 2.

 9        A.   I think that that would be it [marks], approximately, because the

10     factory goes from Bare to Velesici.

11        Q.   Could you mark this as number 2, and your house is number 1.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Do you know that Bosnalijek manufactured explosives during the

14     war?

15        A.   I'm not aware of that fact.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what is this, south of this circle that

17     you drew, underneath the circle, the two rectangular buildings?

18        A.   I don't know what I could answer to your question.

19        Q.   Is that the Zegrep [phoen] Hotel or something like that?

20        A.   Possibly, possibly.  It may be the Grand Hotel, the Zegrep Hotel,

21     as it used to be called.

22        Q.   Could you please put a circle around it?

23        A.   I cannot feel sure about doing this, but I think it may be

24     somewhere around here [marks].

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you put a number 3 there?

Page 9980

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   What was the ZGP used for during the war?

 3        A.   I don't know.  As far as I know, it wasn't operating on a

 4     commercial basis.  I really cannot say what it was used for.

 5        Q.   Was it made available to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   I cannot answer that question with any certainty.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know where that car repairs shop is below

 8     number 3, car repair?

 9        A.   I assume that you're talking about the one within the School of

10     Traffic and Transportation.

11        Q.   Could you put a circle around there?

12        A.   I think it's roughly here [marks], close to the Grand Hotel.

13        Q.   Could you please put number 4 there?  Could you please put

14     number 4 there on that location where the repair shop is, the service

15     station?  Does the pen work?

16        A.   The pen does work.  But I'm telling you, once again, I cannot say

17     with any certainty that that is where it is on this map.  But, okay, I'll

18     put a number 4 there [marks].

19        Q.   Am I right - thank you - that a bit further down is the

20     Fabrika Alija Hodzic, Alhos, the Alhos factory?

21        A.   That is not in Velesici.  It belongs to the neighbourhood of

22     Kosevsko Brdo.  It is a factory opposite the railway station.

23        Q.   Could you please be so kind as to put a circle around that

24     factory?

25        A.   I really don't know where to put the circle.  I cannot see it

Page 9981

 1     here.

 2        Q.   Well, I believe that you had to pass by it, especially when you

 3     went down Kalemova, underneath the C, where the word "Centar" is?

 4        A.   Just a moment.

 5        Q.   Centrotrans, do you know where that is?

 6        A.   Centrotrans is at Stup.

 7        Q.   But part of it is here, behind Alija Hodzic; right?

 8        A.   That is not Centrotrans.  That is part of the city transportation

 9     company where buses park.

10        Q.   Please, since you passed that way every day, could you please put

11     a circle around that, that is to say, around the Alhos complex and the

12     car park or bus park?  Am I right that that is next to the letter C,

13     where it says "Centar Sarajevo"?

14        A.   It's approximately somewhere around here [marks].  Kosevsko Brdo,

15     I'm telling you, that is the lower part of Kosevsko Brdo, the Alhos

16     factory.

17        Q.   Opposite the railway station -- could you put a circle around the

18     railway station, the whole complex, as it were?  Do you see the railroad

19     there and the big building of the railway station?

20        A.   Probably here [indicating].

21        Q.   Not really.  Behind the Marsal Tito Barracks; right?

22        A.   Ah, yes, yes.  Then it's this [marks].

23        Q.   You put a circle around the railway station and the car park or

24     bus park.

25        A.   That is 150 or 200 metres away from the railway station.

Page 9982

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Is Alhos what remained outside the circle, in respect

 2     of this long building?

 3        A.   I cannot really answer your question.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put a circle around Crni Vrh?  You see it is

 5     written there, and you see the elevation.

 6        A.   [Marks].  I have put a circle.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that within number 4, you also put a

 8     circle around the exit out of Velesici Tunnel?

 9        A.   Possibly.  I am not very good with maps at all.  It is close to

10     that neighbourhood.  However, the tunnel is between Velesici and

11     Kosevsko Brdo.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please now mark where your first unit was,

13     the first unit that you were in?  If I'm not mistaken, that is where the

14     streets of Mose Pijade and Nemanjina merge.  Those are the former names.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you please put a small circle there?  You see Mejtas, you

17     see the central park, you see the police building; do you see all of

18     that?

19        A.   I see Kosevo, but I don't really know where to put a circle.  I

20     was roughly in those streets that you referred to just now.

21        Q.   Am I right if I say you can see the beginning of the cemetery

22     there, Lav, and then two faculties, and then Nemanjina is a bit further

23     down, and then Mose Pijade, right, Kosevsko nowadays?

24        A.   It is roughly somewhere around here [marks], but I cannot say

25     that with any degree of certainty.  I think it would be around there,

Page 9983

 1     approximately.

 2        Q.   I believe that is Ciglane.  Can you go back to Titova Street or,

 3     rather, the main park, the big park there?

 4        A.   I think it's here [indicating].

 5        Q.   The big park, the police building, and then Nemanjina Street,

 6     leading to Bolnicka; right?

 7        A.   Here is Kosevo, but I cannot see Nemanjina.  Where is that?

 8        Q.   Do you see the park and Titova Street, Mejtas, the police

 9     building?

10        A.   Yes, yes, I see that.  Now I see it.  Mejtas, yes.

11        Q.   And then you take Nemanjina in order to get to Mose Pijade

12     Street?

13        A.   Yes, somewhere around there, around Mejtas.

14        Q.   Do you see Trampina next to the park?  Do you know where

15     Trampina Street was?

16        A.   It rings a bell, but I cannot remember.

17        Q.   By the Kljuc factory, by the Park Restaurant?

18        A.   Ah, yes.

19        Q.   Is that where the Command of the 105th Brigade is?

20        A.   I don't know.  I really don't know.  I cannot answer.  I do not

21     know the answer to that question.  I was no commander in order to be able

22     to know where the command was.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So from your house, you went to your unit every day;

24     right?

25        A.   No.

Page 9984

 1        Q.   Tell us how it was?

 2        A.   The first six months, I slept there.  I came home every five or

 3     six days or so.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Where did you go between these two locations?

 5        A.   From the house to --

 6        Q.   The Dentistry School, where your unit was.

 7        A.   Through the tunnel, through Ciglane.  Then I passed by the big

 8     park, and I get there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Your participation in the armed forces is registered

10     from when?

11        A.   1992, the beginning of 1992.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What was the name of your unit?

13        A.   I was a member of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina until 1993,

14     and then I was transferred to the Ministry of the Interior.

15        Q.   Thank you.  This initial part, what was the name of your unit?

16        A.   The 2nd Independent Battalion.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Afterwards, did it become part of some brigade, that

18     battalion?

19        A.   Probably.  However, I had already left the unit in March 1993.  I

20     was transferred to the police, the Novo Sarajevo Police Station.

21        Q.   Who was the commander of that battalion?

22        A.   Are we talking about the army or the police?

23        Q.   The army.  We are talking about the period when you were in the

24     army.

25        A.   Adnan Solakovic.

Page 9985

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Wasn't it already in 1992 that that unit became part

 2     of the 105th Brigade?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us now, please, whether there were any

 5     military objectives -- actually, were there any military facilities,

 6     military objectives, military units, in Velesici?

 7        A.   I think so.  I think there was one, the former depot of the JNA.

 8     After that, the Delta Unit was there.  That is at the very entrance to

 9     Velesici.  If we're talking about the army, you can call that a military

10     objective.

11        Q.   That's in your street; right?

12        A.   I beg your pardon?

13        Q.   What was in your street, in Lovcenska?

14        A.   Nothing.

15        Q.   Could you use a blue marker in order to change colours?  Could

16     you mark the depot with a blue pen, where the Delta Unit was?

17        A.   Let's say somewhere here [marks] at the beginning.  Here, right

18     at the beginning, at the very entrance to Velesici.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put a number?  How many numbers did we use

20     up?  That would be number 5.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   All right.  Is it true that in this service station, police and

23     army vehicles were repaired and maintained?

24        A.   I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   Were there any tanks in Velesici?

Page 9986

 1        A.   Not that I know.  At least I never saw one.

 2        Q.   Was there a tank in the tunnel?  Did it ever come out into the

 3     Velesici side, fired, and then went back into the tunnel?

 4        A.   Not that I know of.

 5        Q.   Somewhere on the picture, right above Grbavica or Debelo Brdo,

 6     can you put today's date and your initials?

 7        A.   You said to put it near Crni Vrh?

 8        Q.   No, no.  In the bottom of the picture, where it wouldn't be in

 9     the way, near Debelo Brdo.

10        A.   What am I to put?

11        Q.   The date and your initials or signature.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Can you now look at Crni Vrh.  Do you know there was a howitzer

14     there?

15        A.   Not that I know of.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

19     Exhibit D930.  Thank you.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can Mr. Karadzic put time-frames on

21     his questions, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Begic, that this position of confrontation

24     lines and forces in Sarajevo remained more or less the same from the

25     beginning to the end of the war?

Page 9987

 1        A.   I'm not a military expert.  I can't answer that question.

 2        Q.   But you're a soldier and a policeman.  Do you know of any

 3     significant changes, apart from renaming brigades, significant changes of

 4     positions in Sarajevo?

 5        A.   No, I don't.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Velesici and the neighbouring area and all these

 7     locations, were they all the time in the hands of the BH Army or were

 8     there times when the Serbs held them?

 9        A.   They were always in the hands of the BH Army.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Are you referring to this map, marked map?  That has

13     been already admitted.  It was announced as D930.

14             But what is your question, after having all the exercise of

15     marking various places?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now we can remove this map.  But I

17     wanted -- Ms. Sutherland wanted a time-frame, and I wanted to establish

18     that the situation in Sarajevo did not change during the war at all, so

19     it doesn't matter which period in the war it was.

20             Can we now see D585.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Please remember that you have only an hour for your

22     cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do.  But by extending the

24     testimony to Velesici, the Defence has come to face a new task.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9988

 1        Q.   Can I ask you to read this paragraph that begins with the words:

 2     "In the Velesici tunnel ..."?  Mr. Begic, may I ask you to read this

 3     aloud?  Do you see, for instance, that in Velesici, there was a tank,

 4     whereas in front of the building of the BH TO at Ciglane there is an APC

 5     and a tank, in the Gornji Velesici area, the forces of the BH TO are

 6     positioned, and the police station is in the Local Commune building in

 7     Velesici.  And below the TV relay --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not following.  This is

 9     going too fast.  Mr. Karadzic needs to slow down.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your words were not interpreted.  You

11     were too fast, and the interpreters couldn't follow.

12             We can read it.  What is your question?  That has been admitted.

13     Put your question, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question is testing the

15     credibility of this witness.  He was a soldier and a policeman.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you know all these streets --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Put your question.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Do you know all these streets?  Your street is mentioned here and

21     these localities, the bus terminal, Kosevo Hill, Local Commune, Velesici,

22     the police station.  Do you know them all?

23        A.   Well, since I was born in Sarajevo, of course I know them.

24        Q.   Is it possible that you did not see tanks, guns, artillery, that

25     you did not know all the places where the army was deployed in Velesici?

Page 9989

 1        A.   Of course.  We're talking about the tunnel which I used to pass

 2     through.  You asked me a moment ago how I went to work.  There were two

 3     tunnels, one by the other.  One was completely unusable.  It hasn't been

 4     open to this day.  How would I know where the tanks were positioned?

 5        Q.   If there was shooting on Velesici, if a shell exploded, would you

 6     hold that Velesici was being targeted as a civilian neighbourhood?

 7        A.   Of course.  Why would one shoot at private houses if one didn't

 8     want to hit civilians?

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Begic.  Do you deny that throughout -- below

10     Velesici and below Hum, there was a tank and mortars, they were active,

11     that the military had their installations there, repairing and

12     maintaining their vehicles?  Do you deny that?

13        A.   I just don't have that knowledge.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see P1477, to see what

15     Mladic meant when he spoke about Velesici.

16             This is 25th May 1992.  Can we see page 389, and in English it

17     would be 380.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   We can see it here.  Do you see this date, "Monday,

20     25th May 1992," "Interview with Wilson," et cetera?

21        A.   I see the date "18 May 1992" on the right-hand page.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.

24             Is it possible we could have the English translation on -- yes,

25     thank you.

Page 9990

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Begic, do you understand what this is about?

 2     This is General Mladic's diary.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can make out some of it, because

 4     it's written in Cyrillic.  I can understand it, partially, and I've

 5     learnt Cyrillic.  But I haven't used it in a long time, so it's kind of

 6     difficult.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I just want to ask you about this first page.  Does it relate to

 9     Monday, 25th May 1992?

10        A.   Yes, I can see that date towards the bottom, but I cannot read

11     the upper part.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.  The English page does not --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- show the proper page.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's 380 in English, 380.  In

16     Serbian, can we now see 389?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can have the appropriate English page.

18     But also the witness has just said that he doesn't fully understand

19     Cyrillic, and so he needs to have the B/C/S translation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I think so.  I agree.

21             So, first of all, can we have the proper English page.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 380, please.

23             I think Mr. Begic is literate, he's learned Cyrillic.  We need

24     the Serbian page 389, and, if necessary, I will read it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let me confirm.

Page 9991

 1             Can you read Cyrillic, Mr. Begic?  You said your knowledge is

 2     limited or --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been 20 years that I haven't

 4     read or written in Cyrillic script.  So I can read part of it, but not

 5     all.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Let us up-load the B/C/S version in Latin.  We have

 7     to find 25th of May.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We didn't expect this.  That means

 9     we need more time.  I can read this, and Mr. Begic can just double-check

10     that I'm reading correctly.

11             I think we have the right page.  Yes.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   This is the initial page.  It says "Monday, 25th May 1992."

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see the English page 394

15     and the Serbian page 403.  403 is the handwritten page, the manuscript.

16     This is the English.  Right, we have the Serbian now.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you read to us this little passage at the bottom that says:

19     "Hardware and population ..."?  Can you read it aloud, please?

20        A.   "Hardware and population, opening fire at enemy military targets

21     and buildings from which the attack on the MT Barracks and positions of

22     the SRK members was being commanded."

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see that intercept,

24     65 ter 35001.  It must have been admitted and must have a P number, but

25     it's -- 35001 is the 65 ter.  This has been exhibited, hasn't it?

Page 9992

 1     65 ter 35001.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   General Mladic is talking to one of his subordinates, and he

 4     says:

 5             "Fire" at such and such locality.

 6             Do you understand that to mean that they don't know what they are

 7     shooting at or they are shooting randomly?

 8        A.   It says that they're targeting "Velosici."  It probably means

 9     Velesici.

10        Q.   What there?

11        A.   It says:  "Fire at Velesici.  There is no Serbian population

12     there."

13        Q.   Look at this.  When he says:

14             "Do you have a target you've honed in on there"?

15        A.   Yes, it's written:

16             "Do you have it or don't you?"

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we raise the page in English to

18     read this.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   "Where can you fire?"

21             "I cannot fire here close to the barracks."

22             And the other says:

23             "No, no, not close to the barracks.  Can you fire at Velesici?"

24             And the other one says:

25             "I can."

Page 9993

 1             And the first person says:

 2             "Do you have a ranged-in target there?"

 3             Person number 2 says:

 4             "Yes, I do."

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   Do you mean that he's to shoot at Velesici, as such, or a target

 7     in Velesici?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We need a second -- the next page in English.  It

 9     started from the bottom of this page.

10             Yes, continue.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Mr. Begic, is it clear to you that it's not anything that's being

13     fired at in Velesici, but a target that is marked on the map; right?

14        A.   That is not right, because you hit I don't know how many houses,

15     300, 400, 500 houses, and you killed I don't even know how many of my

16     neighbours.  So you should have just targeted this one military

17     objective, without destroying 500 houses and I don't know how many people

18     in my neighbourhood and in Sarajevo.

19        Q.   Mr. Begic, I'm just asking you about what Mladic says here, not

20     about what happened.  Is it clear here that Mladic is referring to a

21     specific target in Velesici, not Velesici as a whole?

22        A.   I do not see what target it is.

23             "Do you have a ranged-in target?"

24             Maybe I was the target, maybe my neighbour was a target.  Where

25     does it say what was the target or who was the target?

Page 9994

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If you look at this in the light of the diary that we

 2     looked at a moment ago, is it not clear that these are military

 3     objectives?

 4        A.   It is not clear.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I understand.

 6             D027, could we have that now, please?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think this exhibit has been tendered

 8     previously.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please be admitted, if

10     possible?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark it for identification, yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 35001 shall be assigned

13     Exhibit D931, marked for identification.  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have an intercept now, one

15     that Mladic recognises as his own, D207, in e-court.  D207.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you agree that this is a conversation between Mladic and

18     Potpara and Mladic and Baros, on the 29th of May, 1992?

19        A.   That is what is written here.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Towards the bottom --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, did you say Mladic recognised this

22     intercept as his own?  What did you mean?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You will see, Excellency, from the

24     document itself, that Mladic is commenting upon something else that is

25     being ascribed to him.  He is talking to two of his subordinates, and he

Page 9995

 1     is commenting upon something else that is being ascribed to him.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you see the third line from the bottom?  Mladic

 4     says:

 5             "They want to provoke us to hit town by attacking our barracks."

 6             Potpara says:

 7             "Yes, right."

 8             And Mladic says:

 9             "Tell people that so that they would know."

10             Do you agree?

11        A.   That is what is written here, but only God knows what the truth

12     may be.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Please ensure that we are following.  We need the

14     next page in English.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In English, you can

16     already see it:  "Be careful ..." and so on.

17             Can we now have page 4.  This has already been admitted.  The

18     Chamber has seen it, the participants have seen it.  I just wanted to

19     show it to you.  Page 4.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you agree that up here Mladic is saying that they violated

22     part of the agreement?

23             In English, it's page 8, actually.

24             Have a look at it.  We're not going to read it.  They violated

25     it.  Then 54 vehicles have been sheltered:

Page 9996

 1             "Don't receive any emissaries.  No one ..."

 2             And so on and so forth.  And:

 3             "Please exercise restraint."

 4             Do you see that Mladic is asking them to do that?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, really do look at the

 6     question of time.  Could that please be reconsidered, because the

 7     Prosecution expanded the importance of this witness.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Look at this lower part, what Ratko Mladic says here:

10             "I feel the same way."

11             Can you read that out?

12        A.   "Me too, I have the same opinion.  If they want peace, they --"

13        Q.   Page 8 in English so that the participants can follow what it is

14     that you're reading:

15             [In English] "I share the same opinion."

16             [Interpretation] Please go on.

17        A.   "I share the same opinion.  We think in the same way.  If they

18     want peace, they will have it.  I ordered, as soon as I came back last

19     night.  It was an all-out attack against the units and you.  There was

20     shooting, and somehow I managed to calm down the people there, to put

21     everything under control, to stop the fire.  As for what they are

22     producing now, they probably have pantomime performers, some good

23     imitators who are able to imitate our voices properly, I mean your voice,

24     my voice, and anyone's voice."

25        Q.   And the two passages further down?

Page 9997

 1        A.   Your Honour, may I ask you something?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Begic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been 15 minutes now that I

 4     have been testifying.  I have not been asked a single question by

 5     Karadzic in relation to the reasons why I came here to testify; Markale,

 6     my father, and so on.  I have not come here to read this.  I have no idea

 7     who wrote this and what this is all about.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Begic, I understand how you feel, but the

 9     accused is entitled to put any questions which was raised in your

10     examination-in-chief.  You dealt with the shelling of Velesici, and you

11     talked about the Mladic diary, so he's entitled to cross-examine you as

12     robust as he can.  So I appreciate your understanding, Mr. Begic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, very well.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Whilst I agree with the President, of course, as

15     to the accurate observations that are made, it seems to me, Dr. Karadzic,

16     that it would be far better for everybody concerned in the case if you

17     were to concentrate on the issues that the witness really came here to

18     discuss.  The issues raised in the Mladic diaries can be adequately dealt

19     with, and perhaps more profitably dealt with, in another way with other

20     witnesses.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.

22             And just to correct something you said, that he talked about the

23     Mladic diary in his statement.  He talked about the Mladic intercept.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you for clarification.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

Page 9998

 1             I fully agree, but I've seen some judgements where it says, Yes,

 2     it has been established, but some other witness said this and that and

 3     the other thing.  That's why I cannot leave --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Move on, please, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Begic, could you please tell me which part of his leg your

 7     father exactly lost in the railway accident.

 8        A.   His entire foot.  That is to say, he did not have a foot, and the

 9     prosthesis was up to his knee.  All disabled people who did not have a

10     foot had to have that kind of prosthetic.

11        Q.   Where was the cut, exactly?

12        A.   Your Honours, I'd need to show that, so I'd have to get up and to

13     show it to you, if you agree.

14        Q.   I have to pause for the interpretation.

15             Can you tell me how much from the ankle?

16        A.   Two centimetres above the ankle.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So the entire lower leg was still there?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  How tall are you, Mr. Begic?

20        A.   One metre seventy-nine centimetres.

21        Q.   Thank you.  How tall was your late father?

22        A.   My late father was about 1.80.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Which hospital did you go to when you went to visit

24     your father?

25        A.   I went to the French hospital, where they had transferred him

Page 9999

 1     from the Kosevo Hospital, but I didn't manage to see him there.  At 4.15,

 2     my father passed away, so I didn't manage to see him there.  I only saw

 3     him in the morgue of the Kosevo Hospital on that same day, during the

 4     night.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  As the prosthesis -- you took it over two days after

 6     the explosion.  Is that one day after the funeral?  That's what you were

 7     saying during your examination-in-chief.

 8        A.   It's been 16 years now.  I cannot say exactly whether it was a

 9     day or two or three, but it was immediately after the funeral.  After the

10     funeral, I took over the prosthesis in the Sarajevo market or shopping

11     centre.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I have to ask you and to remind myself to pause

13     between our exchanges so that the interpreters manage to interpret all of

14     this properly.  So when I am quiet, would you please understand that to

15     be that kind of pause.

16        A.   Very well.

17        Q.   Do we have that prosthesis now?

18        A.   I don't understand your question.  What do you mean, "now"; this

19     very instant here?

20        Q.   Where is it?

21        A.   I have it in Sarajevo.  I own it.

22        Q.   When were you first asked about it?

23        A.   Could you repeat that question?  When was I asked by who about

24     the prosthesis?

25        Q.   When were you first asked about it in any investigation?

Page 10000

 1        A.   I find the question to be a bit unclear.  But immediately after

 2     the explosion of the shell, in our federal MUP I said that it was my

 3     father's prosthesis and that I have it at home.

 4        Q.   And as for this Tribunal, you never spoke about it until my

 5     opening statement; right?

 6        A.   First, I waited for many, many years for you to be arrested and

 7     to come to The Hague, and it was only then that I could come to The Hague

 8     and say that I have it.

 9        Q.   And none of them asked you before you volunteered; right?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   What is your knowledge about the number of casualties at

12     Markale I in February?

13        A.   Every person who got killed at Sarajevo market has his or her

14     name written on the plaque, memorial plaque in Markale.  I'm there every

15     year, so all the names and surnames of the persons who got killed there

16     are carved there.

17        Q.   I'm asking you, to the best your knowledge, how many casualties

18     there were.  You were a policeman by then, weren't you?

19        A.   Yes, of course.

20        Q.   How many persons were killed?

21        A.   About 67 or 68 persons.  I think it is 67.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And how many were wounded?  Almost 200; right?

23        A.   I think it was about 200 people who were wounded.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Didn't you find it unusual that there were so many

25     people in a market-place where there were no goods?

Page 10001

 1        A.   No, I didn't find that to be unusual, because I spent the entire

 2     war in the town of Sarajevo.  Markets were always full, except when there

 3     was frequent shelling and when the police would ask people to leave.  But

 4     in markets, there were lots and lots of people all the time, because life

 5     in Sarajevo, as a whole, took place in these market-places.  It's not

 6     true that there were no goods there.  You could buy, I don't know, tins

 7     and cigarettes and whatever else at markets, and there was practically

 8     bartering going on in these market-places.

 9        Q.   We are going to have a look, and you're going to see that the

10     market-place was empty, there were no goods whatsoever there from the

11     very outset.  But tell us, please, how long was your father's prosthesis?

12        A.   I cannot say that with any certainty.  I can only measure it and

13     then tell you how long it is, because I do have it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  What did the inside of the prosthesis look like?

15        A.   I don't understand your question.  What do you mean?  Every

16     disabled person who had a prosthetic leg had to have these special socks,

17     if I can call them that, 50 or 60 centimetres long, so that the

18     prosthetic leg could be worn that way.

19        Q.   Please -- you saw that film yesterday, the moment when the

20     prosthetic leg was being thrown and then brought back.  What was the

21     point of it being thrown, and what was the point of having it returned to

22     the market?

23        A.   I cannot answer that question.  But you should have heard the

24     words of the man who is throwing the prosthesis and why he is doing that

25     and what he is saying.  Just listen to the words.  The man is in shock,

Page 10002

 1     and just listen carefully to what he's saying.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let us play a clip from that

 3     film.

 4             Let's see the photograph, 1D2897, 2897.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you see that this prosthetic leg is approximately

 7     the same height as the height between the knee of this man and the

 8     ground?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we see the next

11     one, 2898.

12             Can this photograph be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit D932.  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2897.  Sorry, 98.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Begic, that this man on the right-hand

19     side comes up to the mid-ear of this person carrying the prosthetic leg?

20        A.   Frankly, I don't see the prosthesis at all in this picture.

21        Q.   The middleman is carrying it.  You can see the shoe on it.

22        A.   Yes, I can see it now.

23        Q.   But these are very tall people, Mr. Begic, aren't they?

24        A.   Yes, they are.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the man carrying the prosthesis is above

Page 10003

 1     180 centimetres tall?  He's taller than you are; right?

 2        A.   Looking at the picture, he seems to be.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Can this photograph be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D933.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next one,

 7     65 ter 23014.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you know this man carrying the prosthesis?

10        A.   No.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 23014.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   On this photograph, can we see your late father?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is he wearing the light-colour suit or the dark colour?

16        A.   The dark jacket.

17        Q.   Are they on a bridge in a big European city?

18        A.   Yes, but I can't tell you with any certainty which city it was.

19     It's a neighbouring country of the former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria or

20     Hungary.  I don't know where he went on a trip with his neighbour, Hilmo.

21     But you can see that my father is disabled and that he's wearing his

22     prosthetic leg.

23        Q.   Do you agree that the railing on this bridge is between 100 and

24     110 centimetres?

25        A.   I really cannot answer this kind of question that you're putting,

Page 10004

 1     that you keep putting, and I cannot determine how high the railing is.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?  Oh, it's

 3     already exhibited.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you tell us -- would you say that your father was of average

 6     height or above average?

 7        A.   I think it's average, 180, 181 centimetres.  I would say it's

 8     average.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, just for the record, that is

10     Exhibit P02052.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D02899, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   It seems to me, Mr. Begic, that he, your late father, was much

15     shorter than you are saying.  Look at these ratios in Auto-CAD.

16        A.   I don't know who made this for you.  I know that my father was

17     approximately as tall as I am.  Yes, when people age, they get a little

18     shorter than they were when they were young, but he was not shorter than

19     180.

20        Q.   Do you see that the size of the lower leg would be 44 to

21     48 centimetres if he was as tall as you say?  And I'm not sure you are

22     correct about 180 centimetres.

23        A.   I said that he was around 180 centimetres' tall.  It could have

24     been one centimetre less or more, but I know how tall my father was.

25        Q.   If you agree this is the height of the railing, the length of the

Page 10005

 1     lower leg and the height of Camil Begic in the third column.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  How on earth can the witness agree the height of

 4     this railing is something?

 5             Ms. Sutherland.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, that was my point, Your Honour.  The

 7     witness has just said that he can't give any indication as to that.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Not only that, Dr. Karadzic, it strikes me that

 9     all this debate is predicated upon the basis that we know exactly how far

10     the deceased's leg went into the prosthesis and how much above the knee

11     the prosthesis may have extended in order to support the joint.  We have

12     no evidence at all of that, and inevitably that's going to make a

13     variable and substantial difference.  So I'm not sure of the value of

14     this exercise at all.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm coming back to that.  The

16     railing's a standard height in Europe, 100, 110 centimetres, but we'll

17     leave that aside.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Begic, do you know that placing the entire lower leg into

20     this prosthesis would be uncomfortable and inconvenient, and it would be

21     a single tall boot, too much just to replace a foot?

22        A.   Can you -- can this question be repeated to me, Your Honours?

23        Q.   I'm telling you, as a doctor, that this high boot is not the

24     prosthesis that would be given to someone who lost just one foot, and

25     placing his whole leg into this prosthesis would be detrimental, not only

Page 10006

 1     uncomfortable.

 2        A.   That's not true.  It was made in the Orthopaedics Clinic.

 3     Dr. Kulenovic made it as soon as he got the right material.  Most

 4     disabled people lost a lot of weight during the war, and my father, too,

 5     so he didn't really fit.  He was too thin for the prosthesis he got at

 6     first, so he was given a new one later on, three months later.  And I

 7     went to the Neretva, the company which made prostheses, and showed it to

 8     Dr. Kulenovic to see if something could be done.  And the new one, the

 9     new prosthesis, was a lot lighter, and people walked in these prosthetic

10     legs much more easily.  That's the one my father had during the war.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll now see the inside of that

12     prosthetic leg, and we'll look at the standard measurements.

13             Can we now see a photograph -- or, rather, a clip.  We'll bring a

14     new expert here.  This is part of a video-clip, P1984.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you see, Mr. Begic -- do you see that this prosthesis is

17     shallow?

18        A.   I don't know what you are seeing, but I know this is my father's

19     prosthetic leg.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The shell that fell around

22     1200 hours killed a lot of people, and many are seriously wounded."

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Begic, how can you explain that the entire lower leg of your

25     father fit into this, when you see that the bottom of this prosthesis is

Page 10007

 1     10 centimetres from the edge?

 2        A.   Your Honours, allow me to get up and show you up to which height,

 3     exactly, my father was missing his leg.  And I just explained to Karadzic

 4     that there were two socks that were pulled over the stump so you can put

 5     your leg into the prosthesis.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, just a second.

 7             So that the camera can follow --

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  Can you go back a bit.  Can you just --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Would the Audio-Video Unit show him?

10             Yes, please go on.  You can turn on -- you can speak, probably.

11     I think the interpreters could follow.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This -- my father was missing this

13     whole bit above this bone.  He was missing this part [indicates].  The

14     leg was up to here [indicates].  It even got narrower.  That is the part

15     he was missing.

16             Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Begic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Begic.  I have a lot of understanding and respect

20     for you and your loss, but this is not the prosthesis, Mr. Begic.  You

21     know that there are low boots and high boots, and it would be very bad to

22     give such a high boot to a man who has his entire lower leg.

23        A.   This is the prosthesis.  What else can we establish?  I believe

24     there are 10, perhaps 12, holes of shrapnel in this prosthesis.  In one

25     of these holes, some shrapnel should still be present.  I'm not a

Page 10008

 1     military expert, but if you had military experts, why don't you give

 2     it -- give this prosthesis to the military experts, and let them

 3     establish whether the shrapnel belongs to that shell.  And then you will

 4     see it's my father's.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Karadzic has to repeat his question.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The interpreters didn't hear your

 7     question.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could there have been other prosthetic legs on the market on that

10     day?

11        A.   How would I know?  I cannot answer that question.  Maybe there

12     were other disabled people there.  Maybe other people got killed there

13     wearing their prosthetic legs and the prosthetic legs did not fall off.

14     I can't know that.  But I know this is my father's prosthetic leg.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now display the clip from

16     1 hour 17 minutes.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   While we're waiting:  Did you notice some uniformed and some

19     armed people?

20        A.   Yes, I did.  Those were the soldiers who came to help remove the

21     dead bodies and help the wounded.  Those are people who ran to other

22     people's aid.  You saw the vehicles that were stopping.  Most of these

23     young men were in uniform, those who were carrying the bodies and the

24     wounded into cars.

25        Q.   How come they were so near and were there to run there so

Page 10009

 1     quickly?

 2        A.   I don't know that.  I wasn't there.  But everyone who was nearby

 3     ran to the place after the massacre to help the wounded be transported to

 4     hospitals, to help carry the dead away.  That was a common-place thing

 5     for us at that time.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see what this participant in

 7     the evacuation says.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You heard this participant say, They will say that we did it?

11        A.   I'd like to hear it again.

12        Q.   Never mind.  Did you hear that he counted 25 dead?

13        A.   I really couldn't hear.  Can you replay it, and then I'll try.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you hear he says he counted 25 dead?

17        A.   He said that he saw 25 dead.  He didn't say how many were carried

18     away before he arrived.  He just talked about what he had seen.  He

19     couldn't have known how many people had been already carried to the

20     morgue before.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you'll have five minutes to conclude

22     your cross-examination.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Stop here.

25        Q.   Do you see the traces of dragging here?

Page 10010

 1        A.   Traces of what?

 2        Q.   Do you see that somebody was dragged here?

 3        A.   You obviously don't know what "massacre" means.  How else would

 4     you deal with it in a place like this?  You have to take a butchered body

 5     and drag it onto a blanket.  People were torn to pieces, and it was

 6     everywhere between these stalls.  People were torn to pieces.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we play just a little more.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Why does this person take out the plastic sheet from underneath

11     this man?  Do you see that this man was dragged here on a plastic sheet,

12     and then the plastic sheet was pulled out?

13        A.   My opinion is that this man sees the victim is already dead, is

14     taking the plastic sheet to use it to help someone else who is still

15     alive.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I see.

17             Now we'll see another part that relates to the prosthesis.

18     1D2895.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   How do you explain that this prosthetic leg is standing up here?

21        A.   I've given it a lot of thought.  I've been watching this footage

22     for 16 years and thinking, and I'm kind of making my own movie in my mind

23     because it bothers me.

24             The market has been cleared, the shelling is over.  I think,

25     because a war is going on, nobody has any money.  People are prepared to

Page 10011

 1     do anything.  I think that in exchange for two or three tin cans of food,

 2     somebody offered a journalist to -- a photograph of this prosthetic leg.

 3     You can see that the market has been cleaned, there is nothing on it.

 4     This is my father's prosthetic leg.  I am absolutely sure that one of the

 5     photo reporters asked somebody to place it there to make a photo.

 6        Q.   And how long did it take to clean up the market?

 7        A.   Your Honours, I really don't know.  I wasn't present there to be

 8     able to answer the question how long it took to clean up.  I wasn't

 9     there, and I can't answer.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  We'll play a video-clip

11     and watch it together.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Do you see, Mr. Begic, that there is no one there, there's

15     nothing?  Everything is implausibly empty.

16        A.   Your Honour, I am saying, with full responsibility, that this is

17     an image after the massacre.  Everything has been cleared.  I'm saying

18     this under oath.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's play that part again with the

20     blood.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Is that strictly necessary, Dr. Karadzic?

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, all of this was

24     staged by the police where Mr. Begic worked.  I'm not saying it was his

25     unit, but we know full well who worked in that unit and who staged all of

Page 10012

 1     this.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  That is -- it's not your giving evidence,

 3     because it's not evidence, it's simply a comment.  If you've got another

 4     pertinent question to ask of this witness, then please do so, but it

 5     seems to me that re-running videos that we've all seen many times is

 6     really not going to assist us.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Can I just ask you once again, Mr. Begic, please focus on this

 9     passageway where the man is walking with the prosthesis.  Are there any

10     traces of dragging there, of the evacuation of the dead and wounded?

11     Just look at this passageway where he is entering.  What does it look

12     like?

13                           [Video-clip played]

14        A.   It looks cleared.  Just listen to what these people are saying.

15     You will hear, from their conversation, that everything has been cleaned,

16     that there are no blood-stains.  It has been cleaned.  Listen to what

17     they are saying.

18        Q.   Did you notice that on the film this prosthesis is in different

19     places?  It's in the passageway, it's underneath the stall in one

20     position, and then in a different position.  Then it is being thrown, and

21     then it is being returned; right?

22        A.   Your Honours, I watched all of this footage over 50 times,

23     unfortunately, over these 16 years.  During the massacre, you see the

24     prosthesis in one particular place, and I think that's exactly where my

25     father got killed.  Later on, you see it about half a metre away,

Page 10013

 1     underneath a stall.  If so many people get killed and wounded, isn't it

 2     logical that people were passing there and that somebody, Karadzic,

 3     pushed this under the stall?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In which police department did you work from 1993 until the end

 7     of the war?  What was your unit, what were your tasks?

 8        A.   I always worked at the Police Administration of Novo Sarajevo.

 9     Wartime tasks of a policeman were that if I was not at the front-line, I

10     worked on regular police work, keeping the law and order, if there were

11     street fights, if there was this and that, whatever police do anywhere in

12     the world.  So if I was not on the front-line, I did regular police work.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Where did you go to the front-line?

14        A.   I was on the front-line only in Sarajevo; that is to say, I

15     defended my own city.  I never went outside Sarajevo.  I was always on

16     the lines around Sarajevo, and I defended my city honourably and

17     honestly.

18        Q.   All of that is well and fine, but just tell us in the zone of

19     responsibility of which brigade.  You, as the police, were attached to

20     some mountain brigade, weren't you?

21        A.   The Police Administration of Novo Sarajevo, well, sent me to

22     Nedzarici, to the line behind the student dormitories.  That's where I

23     would spend, say, 10 days, and then I would be resting for a month, and

24     then for two or three days I went to the hill of Zuc because that is my

25     municipality, and the Police Administration where I worked went several

Page 10014

 1     times to help out.  I don't know which brigade this was, but it was the

 2     hill of Zuc, and you know full well where Zuc is.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

 4     questions.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have just one area.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I could have Exhibit D930.  That was the

10     map that the witness annotated this morning.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we would need to switch to e-court from

12     Sanction.  Yes.

13                           Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

14        Q.   Mr. Begic, this morning you marked, in blue pen, the location of

15     the former depot of the JNA, when Mr. Karadzic asked you, at pages 8 to

16     9, of military facilities in Velesici, and you said:

17             "Yes, that's the former depot of the JNA.  After that, the

18     Delta Unit were there."

19             Were they there at the point where -- when you heard the

20     intercept, the Mladic intercept, at the end of May 1992?  Was this unit

21     there at that time?

22        A.   Your Honours, I cannot say with certainty that I put a circle in

23     the right location, because I'm no expert in topography and I'm not very

24     good at maps.  So I approximately put that circle there.  I know very

25     well where the place is, but I don't know whether I marked it properly on

Page 10015

 1     the map.

 2             I cannot give you an answer as to whether the unit was deployed

 3     there at the beginning of the war.  At any rate, it's a military

 4     facility, but I really do not know who was based there.

 5        Q.   And just one other question in relation to the prosthesis.  You

 6     have said earlier in your testimony that you are prepared to have the

 7     prosthetic available for inspection.  Do you still stand by that?

 8             I'm sorry, you need to answer the question so it's on the record.

 9        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  Whenever you wish, the prosthesis will be

10     made available to you.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Begic, that concludes your evidence.  I really

13     appreciate your kindness to come over to The Hague to give it.  Now you

14     are free to go.  Please have a safe journey back home.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour, after which

18     we'll hear the evidence of Mr. Overgard through videolink.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Overgard.

22             Do you follow the proceedings?

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes I can hear you and can see you.  That's no

24     problem.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 10016

 1             If you can take the solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 3     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  THORBJORN OVERGARD

 5                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Overgard.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Please state your full name and your rank.

12        A.   Thorbjorn Overgard, and I'm a major in the Norwegian Air Force.

13        Q.   Major, you provided a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor,

14     and you also testified twice before this Tribunal; is that correct?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   You, in particular, testified in the trial against

17     Dragomir Milosevic on the 18th and the 19th January 2007; do you recall

18     this?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review this testimony in

21     preparation of today's testimony?

22        A.   Yeah, I read through it on the screen, yes.

23        Q.   Can you affirm that the testimony accurately reflects the

24     evidence you provided to the Tribunal in the Milosevic trial?

25        A.   That is correct.  Yes, I do.

Page 10017

 1        Q.   And, Major, would you provide that same evidence to the Court if

 2     questioned on the same matters here today?

 3        A.   Yes, I will.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

 5     testimony as 65 ter 10321 for admission under Rule 92 ter.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that is admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be admitted as

 8     Exhibit P2058.  Thank you.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  With the Court's permission, I would now

10     read a brief summary of Mr. Overgard's evidence as admitted.

11             Major Overgard was posted to Sarajevo as a United Nations

12     Military Observer from late October 1994.  After an initial posting in an

13     area held by the Bosnian Serb forces, he was deployed in Hrasnica within

14     the territory held by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, where he

15     remained until the 1st of May, 1995.

16             During his time in Hrasnica, Major Overgard investigated many

17     shelling and sniping incidents.  In this -- it says here "Disconnected."

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay, I think we are back on line.

20             In this time -- no, it's not.

21             Yes.  Major, we were interrupted.  I continue now with the

22     reading of the summary.

23             In this time-period, there were casualties almost every day.  The

24     greatest number of casualties occurred during November and December 1994

25     as well as April 1995.

Page 10018

 1             Of all the shelling and sniping investigations undertaken by

 2     Major Overgard and those working with him, VRS-held territory was

 3     identified as the source of fire.  Most of the shelling incidents

 4     investigated by Major Overgard involved civilian victims.  All of the

 5     sniping incidents investigated by him involved civilian victims.

 6             The VRS had firing positions in the area of Ilidza and Blazuj and

 7     in the area of Lukavica.  It was mainly from these directions that

 8     Hrasnica was shelled.  The center of Hrasnica was a residential civilian

 9     area with no military installations.

10             Major Overgard investigated the shelling of 7 April 1995, charged

11     as Scheduled Shelling Incident G10.  On that day, a modified air-bomb hit

12     a residential area in the center of Hrasnica and killed a woman and

13     wounded others.  Major Overgard heard the air-bomb coming in and the

14     explosion, and when he visited the site, he saw one house completely

15     destroyed and eight others extensively damaged.  The investigation in

16     this incident determined that the air-bomb was fired from Serb-held

17     territory in Ilidza.

18             Serb forces regularly shelled and sniped at civilians using the

19     road to Mount Igman or the bridge at Butmir.  Major Overgard estimated

20     that during his time in Hrasnica, he investigated the death of 30 to

21     40 civilians as a result of sniping and shelling, including the killing

22     of two small children on the 17th of November, 1994, and the killing of a

23     girl walking on the Igman road.

24             Your Honours, this concludes the summary of the witness's

25     evidence.

Page 10019

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Overgard, I have now a few questions to put to you in

 2     addition to that?

 3             And just to start with, I mentioned, as my last sentence, the

 4     killing of a girl walking on the Igman road that you described in your

 5     evidence.  Can you place this event in time?  Do you know when it

 6     happened, approximately?

 7        A.   Yeah, I don't remember the date exactly anymore.  I haven't been

 8     able to find any -- no notes on that.  But that has to be in late March,

 9     beginning of April, 1995.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Major, in your evidence, you mostly described the

11     air-bomb incident of the 7th of April, 1995.  And when you gave this

12     previous testimony, you referred to statements from witnesses that you

13     got, and also you referred to a report that you and your team drafted.

14     Do you remember this?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Yes?

17        A.   Okay.  No, it's okay, I remember, and I have reviewed the report.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now like to address

19     Exhibit 65 ter 11336.  That's in e-court.

20             And as everybody can have a look at it, it is a special report

21     from SI-1 entitled, in the subject line, "Large explosion in Hrasnica on

22     the 7th of April, 1995."

23        Q.   Major Overgard, did you have an opportunity to review this report

24     in preparation of your testimony?

25        A.   Yes, I have.

Page 10020

 1        Q.   And do you know this report?

 2        A.   Yes, I recognise that one.

 3        Q.   Yes.  Can you tell us who prepared it?

 4        A.   It was prepared by Flight Lieutenant Calum Gunn and two more

 5     colleagues from the team.  He is the main drafter of this report.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And it says here -- there is a reference on top of

 7     it, and it says "SI-1."  What does it stand for?

 8        A.   It stands for the name of the team, Sierra India 1, so the

 9     Sierra Igman Team 1.

10        Q.   And when we go to the second page of this document, we find

11     signatures.  And is one of them your signature?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   It's the second one; right?

14        A.   It is the second one, yes, Military Observer 839.

15        Q.   Yes.  And if we go back to the first page, if you would like to

16     do this, under paragraph 2 we find a reference to an aircraft bomb and

17     four rockets.  These findings, on what are they based?

18        A.   They are based on the fragments that we found after we were

19     allowed in to investigate the incident, and also the parts that we were

20     shown from the BiH authorities the day after the happening.

21        Q.   And in that same paragraph is also a reference that the weapon

22     was supposedly fired from a truck in the area of Ilidza, and you also

23     give the grid references.  This information is based on what?

24        A.   It's based on the damages to the houses as long -- it's caused

25     when -- on its way to where it exploded.  There were severe damages to

Page 10021

 1     windows all along that direction.

 2        Q.   And if we turn again to page 2 and the fourth paragraph, there is

 3     a reference with more details of the launch of the air-bomb.  And it says

 4     here "from a truck," and that then the vehicle returned to the carpet

 5     factory in Ilidza, a storage site for vehicles of the Bosnian Serb Army.

 6             Major, from which source did you get this particular detail?

 7        A.   This is from -- from the local witnesses on Mount Igman that we

 8     spoke to afterwards.  As I remember it, it was that.

 9        Q.   And also in that same paragraph, as the last sentence, there is a

10     reference to the UNMOs hearing the weapon coming in, and that it landed

11     200 metres from the location where they were staying; is that correct?

12        A.   Yeah, that is correct.  I was in the living-room of the

13     accommodation, and we heard.  It was just like a big aircraft coming in.

14     And so we were on our way to the floor when it exploded.

15        Q.   And attached to the report are a number of diagrams as to the

16     damage found and the weapon, and what the shell rest [sic] -- the

17     air-bomb rest [sic] that were found.  Who made these drawings?

18        A.   It was done by Calum Gunn.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

20             Your Honour, I request the admission of this exhibit.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted as Exhibit P2059.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

23             I would now like to address an exhibit, 65 ter 10693, which is

24     already admitted as P1210.  And it is an order by the Romanija --

25     Sarajevo Romanija Corps Command to the Ilidza Brigade of the

Page 10022

 1     6th of April, 1995.

 2        Q.   Major, did you have an opportunity to review this document in

 3     preparation for your testimony?

 4        A.   Yes, I did see it yesterday, yes.

 5        Q.   And in the first paragraph of the order, there is a reference to

 6     Muslim forces attacking the positions of the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry

 7     Brigade, in particular, the sector of the Famos factory, "for the past

 8     three days."

 9             Major, were you aware of these military activities?

10        A.   No, we could not -- I cannot remember that we had any unusual

11     activity in the Famos factory area.  There was always small-arms firing

12     from that area, so there was nothing unusual that we had noticed before

13     the bomb explosion.

14        Q.   And when you refer to this usual -- small fire-arm activities, do

15     you recall that there were -- there were outgoing fire from the center of

16     Hrasnica in the direction of the Famos factory?

17        A.   No, I cannot remember any activities going that way.  We always

18     had to take care where we moved when we were close to Famos factory area.

19        Q.   And in that order here, General Milosevic orders the launching of

20     an air-bomb in Hrasnica and requests the selection of the most profitable

21     target where the greatest casualties and material damage would be

22     inflicted.

23             Major, from what you saw on the ground, was this order acted

24     upon?

25        A.   I don't know if I understand you right, but I didn't -- as I say,

Page 10023

 1     there was no unusual activities in the area before that morning --

 2        Q.   But I was referring --

 3        A.   -- that we noticed.

 4        Q.   Yes, thank you.  But I was referring to General Milosevic's

 5     order, where he basically proposes to launch an air-bomb on Hrasnica, and

 6     that was --

 7        A.   Yeah, I did not -- we did not notice anything, as I say, unusual

 8     before the bomb came.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour, we can move on, as

10     this document is already a part of the record.

11             And I would like now to turn to another document of the

12     Sarajevo Romanija Corps Command, and it's already also in evidence.  It's

13     P1210.  Can it be put to Major Overgard?

14             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I would need the 65 ter number,

15     please.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay.  65 ter 10691.

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

19        Q.   And as it is in front of you now:  It is a combat report from the

20     Sarajevo Romanija Corps Command of the 7th of April, 1995.

21             Major, did you have an opportunity to read this report in

22     preparation of your testimony?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we don't have that

25     document.

Page 10024

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's in e-court.  It's actually already an

 2     exhibit.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I see it, yes.  I see it in the e-court.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And P --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, "the 7th of April, 1995,"

 6     is the interpretation that I received.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 7th of April --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  What we are seeing is the 14th of July.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It is document P1201.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But then the 65 ter number should be different.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Oh, I meant -- no, it's 65 ter 10691.

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] That's what the witness has in

14     front of him.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We have up-loaded the wrong one.  We'll do so.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I made a correction when I

17     mentioned the P number.  It's P1782.  That should be the document.

18             Is it now in front of everybody?

19             THE WITNESS:  I have it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And it's a combat report, as I said, from

22     the 7th of April, 1995.

23        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to read this report in

24     preparation of your testimony?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 10025

 1        Q.   And when we look at the first paragraph on the first page, we

 2     have a bit more details of the fighting on that day, and it says here

 3     that at 6.00 in the morning, the enemies, inter alia, opened fierce fire

 4     at the Famos factory.  Do you have any knowledge about this?  Did you

 5     hear anything?

 6        A.   No.  As I stated, I cannot remember any unusual activities that

 7     morning.  It was, as I remember it, a quiet, normal morning.  Some

 8     shooting around, as always, but there wasn't any unusual heavy activity.

 9        Q.   And as you were in the center of Hrasnica, did you hear any

10     outgoing fire from the center of Hrasnica on that morning?

11        A.   No, I did not.

12        Q.   And one more question.  The school in Hrasnica, were you familiar

13     with that school?

14        A.   I knew where the school building was, yes.

15        Q.   And was there a military or police unit stationed there?

16        A.   No, that's -- beside the one, there was a police unit, yes, but

17     not in the school.  It's on the other side of the street.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And if we turn to paragraph 2 of this

19     document, we have responses -- a list of responses, as it is called here.

20     And as the second, we see a reference to a 250-kilogram air-bomb was

21     launched at the center of Hrasnica.

22        Q.   Any comment from you on this, Major?

23        A.   No.  It's at the center -- okay, as I say, I did not see

24     anything, but -- or hear anything unusual from our accommodation.  We

25     were still in the accommodation when this bomb landed, and there was no

Page 10026

 1     unusual activity.

 2        Q.   But what is mentioned here, that is, the response, did you see

 3     the result of the response, the response of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

 4     as it is mentioned here?

 5        A.   Yeah.  We -- it has to be that bomb which we talked about that

 6     landed in our vicinity.  I'm not sure if I follow you correctly, but --

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Major.

 8             Your Honour, this concludes -- as this is already an exhibit,

 9     this concludes the examination-in-chief.

10             And I would now request that the associated exhibits be admitted.

11     They are listed all in the final exhibits table.  It's, namely, the

12     photos that have the exhibit number 10466 and --

13             JUDGE KWON:  And four maps?

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  -- and four maps, right, the numbers 10147

15     to 10150.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection?

17             They will be admitted and will be given numbers, and the numbers

18     will be circulated to the parties in due course.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             That concludes what I have to say.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Overgard, now you'll be further asked by

22     Mr. Karadzic.

23             Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 10027

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Major Overgard.  Let me express my

 2     gratitude for giving that interview yesterday to the Defence, and I hope

 3     it will help ease the way to elucidating certain issues.

 4             Can you hear me?

 5        A.   Yes, I can hear you.  There's no problems.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true, Major, that you are not an expert in

 7     artillery weapons?

 8        A.   I'm not an expert, no.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You did not have any training for artillery weapons

10     and investigations related to them?

11        A.   Yes, I had some training during the course I had in advance of my

12     duty as a UN Military Observer.  I was at a three weeks' course in

13     Finland, and we had a crater analysis, we had some technical data and so

14     on.  But as I'm infantry, I'm not expert on artillery weapons.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that in your military career, you have

16     never been involved in criminal investigations, in the true sense of that

17     word?

18        A.   Not in my military career.  I have been in investigations during

19     my time in the Balkans, yes.

20        Q.   I meant before that.

21        A.   No, before that --

22        Q.   Your first investigations were those in Hrasnica; right?

23        A.   Yes, it was.

24        Q.   These were your first investigations; correct?

25        A.   These were my first investigation on site.  I have been practices

Page 10028

 1     during the course -- in my course in Finland and had some documentations

 2     on how to do this with me in the mission area.  That's all.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it the case that in the course of these first

 4     investigations in Hrasnica, you were not able to determine the origin of

 5     fire or the distance from which the projectile was fired?

 6        A.   I cannot remember that the team did not make the investigations

 7     without giving assessments.  We were never alone on such investigations.

 8     We were at least two or maybe three when we did these investigations, and

 9     we always concluded.

10        Q.   To be more precise, is it true that you were able to express your

11     opinion on the direction from which the projectile came and the

12     trajectory?

13        A.   Yes, the direction and the general area; not -- never exact

14     placing, but the general area which artillery fire came from and mortar

15     fire came from, we could assess.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let me refresh your memory.

17             Let us look at 65 ter 15890.  That is your evidence in the

18     Perisic case, 65 ter 15890.  Page 17, the bottom of page 17, and then

19     page 18.

20             If I may, with your permission, I'd like to read what you said at

21     the time.

22             The Perisic transcript, it's page 2959 to 2960:

23             [In English] "Not as I know that there are anything to give exact

24     position, but you can give a direction and from the angle also if you are

25     very good at it, find that distance approximately it's fired from."

Page 10029

 1             "Q.  Could you tell us on the basis of what you established the

 2     distance from which the shell was fired?

 3             "A.  No, I can't give the exact distance.  I only in my reports

 4     pointed at directions, and I never had the education to find correct

 5     distance.

 6             "Q.  Was there anyone on your team who was an expert on

 7     determining exactly the distance and not just the direction?"

 8             [Interpretation] The next page, 18, you reply:

 9             [In English] "No."

10             "Q.  And when you decided on the direction that you supposed that

11     that was where the projectile had come from, that was just in general

12     terms.  You could never establish with any kind of precision where it

13     exactly came from; correct?"

14             Your answer is:

15             "That's correct.  If you are not hearing outgoing bang, from that

16     when it lands, you can say from where, but that was very seldom."

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Was this your reply in your evidence in the

19     Perisic case?

20        A.   Yes, that was.

21        Q.   Do you still agree with this answer that you gave?

22        A.   Yes, it refreshes a bit, and I can agree with and still stand

23     with that answer.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to ask you about the presence of the

25     military and military installations in Hrasnica.

Page 10030

 1             Was there a presence of the BH Army in Hrasnica?

 2        A.   Yes, it was.

 3        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber something about that presence of

 4     the BH Army; their units, their forces, their arsenal?

 5        A.   There was a headquarter from the 4th Brigade BiH Army, and -- but

 6     exactly how many units, how many men present and present at each

 7     location, I'm not able to give you today.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Major.  So it was the 4th Brigade, and sometimes it's

 9     called 104th Brigade.  Do you remember the name of their commander?

10        A.   Not at the moment, no.

11        Q.   If I remind you that his name was Fikret Prevljak, does that ring

12     a bell?

13        A.   It does ring a bell, yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In addition to the headquarters of the

15     4th Motorised Brigade, were there any other headquarters or commands of

16     battalions and companies?

17        A.   Yes, there was a headquarter in the area against Ilidza, and

18     there was a headquarter -- I think it was a company headquarter in the --

19     you could say eastern area from our accommodation.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So we can agree that at least the Command of the

21     4th Motorised Brigade was in the center, in a populated area; that is to

22     say, in a civilian building?  Residential building, I meant.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you observe any unfinished buildings in the

25     center of Hrasnica, and did you observe that there was a military

Page 10031

 1     presence there as well, troops and headquarters?

 2        A.   There were not any, as I remember, unfinished buildings that

 3     was -- or buildings that were raised and not finished, as I can recall

 4     just now.  But I agree there were military headquarters in the area and

 5     there were military presence in Hrasnica.  That's a fact.

 6        Q.   Did you have certain difficulties in noting all that happened,

 7     and these difficulties derived from the restrictions imposed on you by

 8     this BH Army unit, restrictions of movement and lack of access to certain

 9     localities?

10        A.   It might be possible that -- because we had, especially against

11     the area of Ilidza, we were not allowed to go all the way to the

12     front-line, so what was in these houses, I'm not -- I cannot exactly

13     tell.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see P1782.  It was admitted

15     not long ago.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   How far was your base, Major, from the confrontation line close

18     to the Famos factory?

19        A.   Now, 15 years later, it's not easy to remember, but it was, you

20     could say, less than a kilometre.

21        Q.   Do you agree that outgoing fire can be heard a distance of 100 to

22     200 metres, outgoing fire from, let's say, a mortar?

23        A.   Yeah, you should be able -- if I understand the question right,

24     you should be able to hear outgoing 200 to 300 metres from a position,

25     yes, normally.

Page 10032

 1        Q.   Thank you.  May I ask you to tell us if you remember these place

 2     names: Grlica neighbourhood and Vojkovici settlements?  Were these

 3     Serbian neighbourhoods on the Serbian side of the line?

 4        A.   I believe they were neighbourhoods, yes.  I cannot today say in

 5     words where they were.  I'd need a map, I think, to mark it and refresh.

 6     I'm not refreshed on a map of the area before this event today.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Major.  Would you please look at the heading, where it

 8     says that this document is strictly confidential and that the

 9     Sarajevo Romanija Corps Command is reporting to its Main Staff?  Do you

10     agree?

11        A.   I did not understand the question.

12        Q.   Do you agree that this is an internal strictly-confidential

13     document of the Republika Srpska Army?

14        A.   Yes, it says so in the -- in the heading, yes.

15        Q.   From your military experience, would you agree that such reports

16     should not lie; they have to be accurate, and all the more so because

17     they are not intended for the media?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Move on to another topic.  You asked for speculation

19     from the witness.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I thought I was allowed to

21     ask leading questions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not a matter of leading question.  It

23     requires speculation on the part of the witness.  How can the witness

24     tell whether it's minded to lie or not?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 10033

 1             Let us look at the incident involving the air-bomb in Hrasnica.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   According to your report, the incident happened between 8.00 and

 4     9.00, at 8.40 in the morning; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   At what time did you come to the scene?

 7        A.   We started from our accomodation very soon after the explosion.

 8     We just had to put our gear on, and then we went off to the scene.

 9        Q.   Would it be fair to say that you were there within half an hour?

10        A.   Yes, we were.

11        Q.   Thank you, Major.  How long did you stay on the scene?

12        A.   I can't say exactly how many minutes, but we were -- I can

13     believe within 15 minutes we were called back by the commander of the

14     BiH forces and told to go to our accommodation again.

15        Q.   Who was there when you arrived; members of the army, staff?  In

16     other words, who got there --

17        A.   There were no staff.  We were, I think, the first military on the

18     scene.  We just started to walk around to find out what has happened,

19     what is the damage, are there anyone needing help, to have a look.  So

20     there was no one when we arrived.

21        Q.   Thank you.  How do you explain the fact that the commander of

22     this 4th Motorised Brigade called you back?

23        A.   There's nothing to say.  That he wanted to do the investigation

24     first or whatever.  He told us to go back, and we protested, but we did

25     as he told us.

Page 10034

 1        Q.   Thank you.  May I remind you of your statement from 1996.

 2             65 ter 10001, page 2.  65 ter 10001, page 2.

 3             [No interpretation]:

 4             [In English] "I saw some legs and bricks with camouflage trousers

 5     and boots."

 6             [Interpretation] Do you remember that?

 7        A.   I saw that -- if you refer now to the feet I saw coming out of

 8     the pile of bricks, yes.  That was the point when the commander came and

 9     told us to come to his position, and then he told us to go, to leave the

10     area.

11        Q.   Are you able to tell us what happened later?  You obeyed, you

12     left the scene, and then you went where?

13        A.   Went to our accommodation, and then we already found that there

14     was three -- two or three soldiers from BiH Army outside.  And we were

15     allowed to enter the accommodation, but were told that we had to stay in

16     the accommodation; not how long or whatever, but we had to stay there

17     until further.

18        Q.   Thank you.  May I draw your attention to page 3 of this same

19     document, where you say that he did not want to debate anything with you.

20     He turned you back.  And then in the next paragraph, you say that you

21     somehow managed to negotiate a permission to come to the scene again

22     around 7.00 p.m.?

23        A.   Yes, I believe he was there.  But the 7.00 p.m., then we -- I

24     don't remember.  But actually I did -- we were there in the afternoon,

25     but we found that we had to take further investigation the next morning.

Page 10035

 1     And the next morning, we were also not allowed out of the house, as I

 2     remember it now.  But this exhibit or this report here, I have not

 3     prepared for this hearing today, so I have to review it a bit.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I hope you have before you the third page.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the ERN is 0062 to 0066.  In other words, for 12 hours --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   -- you were unable to move, you were held under guard by the

 9     BH Army?

10        A.   We were detained in our accommodation, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So on that first day, you were not able to carry out

12     any kind of investigation, let alone a serious one?

13        A.   No, not a proper investigation.  We just had a look at the scene,

14     and that, I think, was all, yes.

15        Q.   On page 3 -- in fact, you came the next day:

16             [In English] "By this time the bodies were gone, and the police

17     sent for experts' help from Sarajevo.  We only had a short look around

18     the scene, without doing a proper investigation.  We also had a meeting

19     that evening with the security officer of the brigade.  The first day, we

20     could not find anything, no fragments."

21        A.   That's correct because --

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you have a meeting with the security officer

23     of that brigade, 104th Motorised Brigade, the Muslim brigade?

24        A.   I don't remember now.  I have not, as I said, reviewed this

25     statement before today's event.  So today, I don't remember at the

Page 10036

 1     moment.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  The next day, when you were at the morgue, you were

 3     informed that one woman was a victim of that incident?

 4        A.   Yes.  That woman we also inspected in the morgue at some point,

 5     but I don't remember when.  I think it was the day after.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  May I assist you to refresh your memory.  It's your

 7     transcript from Perisic, D2977, 65 ter 15890, page 35.  It says:

 8             [In English] "After that, with the inspector, you meant -- you

 9     went to the morgue, where you were shown the corpse of a woman, and you

10     were told that she was a casualty in this incident; right?"

11             [Interpretation] And you said:  "Yes."

12             Was that so?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So you did not see that woman on the scene, although you were the

15     first to get there?

16        A.   I don't remember seeing her there, that's correct.  There were

17     chaos the first time when we were there, so I cannot exactly say that I

18     saw her now, not today.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could we then conclude that all you knew about the

20     scene was what you were told by the police, who conducted their own

21     investigation?

22        A.   I would not conclude on that, because we saw around us -- and as

23     I've explained, we saw bodies, but to remember the details of that today

24     is a bit difficult.  That's the only thing I can say now.  I have to

25     review these reports we did and also the questions I answered in 1996,

Page 10037

 1     1997.  That's a -- that should maybe have been done before today.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at page 3 of this statement from 1996:

 3             [In English] "The day after the expert from Sarajevo arrived, in

 4     the morning we were first not allowed to leave our house, so we could

 5     only go on site after lunch.  We conducted the investigation together

 6     with the BH police.  They showed us fragments of the bomb engine they

 7     found on the scene."

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until the witness gets the correct

 9     page.

10             Please continue.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is it correct that on the first day, you did not find anything, I

14     mean, no evidence, although you were the first to arrive there?  You

15     arrived before them, and then they showed you the corpse of this woman

16     that you had not seen on the scene, and they showed you traces that you

17     had not found; right?

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think we lost the connection.

19             Yes, now we have the connection again.

20             Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat your last question.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Major, can we say, then, as you say on page 3:

23             [In English] "For the first day, we could not find anything, no

24     fragments"?

25             [Interpretation] Can we, therefore, conclude that you arrived

Page 10038

 1     before the commander, that you saw one body --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   -- the legs were in camouflage uniform and boots, and you spent

 4     the rest of the day with restricted movement, and it was the next day

 5     that you received information and fragments from the Bosnian police?

 6        A.   Yes.  And I don't remember what we found on that evening with it,

 7     but the next day we found some fragments, as I recall today, some

 8     fragments and some engine parts from the rockets.  And then we were

 9     showed additional parts from the police and the authorities.

10        Q.   Thank you.  However, the fact remains that you had not found

11     anything on the first day; right?

12        A.   As I -- I cannot conclude today without going through notes.  I

13     cannot confirm that we found anything, no.

14        Q.   Please have a look at page 3:

15             "By this time ..."

16             And so on and so forth.

17             "... the bodies were gone ..."

18             And so on and so forth:

19             [In English] "For the first day, we could not find anything, no

20     fragments."

21        A.   Yes, I said so, so it has to be correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that on the next day, most of the

23     traces, including the body wearing a camouflage uniform, had been

24     removed?

25        A.   The body was removed.  We still the next day found some

Page 10039

 1     fragments.  Exactly which ones, it's not easy to say today, but we found

 2     things and parts from that bomb and rockets.  I remember because we had

 3     to cut some fence to reach one of them and we had to use our private

 4     tools.  So we found things on the other day on our own.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the explanation you received was

 6     that you had not seen that soldier, a man in camouflage uniform wearing

 7     boots, was because he was not killed, but just wounded, and then he left,

 8     ultimately?

 9        A.   That was what we were told, yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you find that to be convincing?  A man who was

11     under a pile of bricks, where such a big explosion had taken place, was

12     just wounded?

13        A.   I will not speculate in that.  But, of course, I did not really

14     believe it when it was told to me.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you hadn't found anything on the

16     scene that would have been of use to the investigation?

17        A.   As I said, we found parts from the bomb and the rockets and -- on

18     the second day.  And as I also said, I don't remember, but I think we

19     found things the evening.  It was getting dark that evening, but we found

20     things before the darkness came.  That is -- just exactly which parts we

21     found, I can't say today.

22        Q.   But it wasn't useful for your investigation, because you didn't

23     know what it was; right?

24        A.   I can't remember today if it was useful.  I believe it was -- it

25     has to -- everything we found of a device like that, to find out what it

Page 10040

 1     was had to be useful.

 2        Q.   Well, let me refresh your memory.

 3             Let us look at the transcript from the Perisic case.  2977 is the

 4     page.  65 ter 15890, page 35, from line 4 onwards:

 5             [In English] "When you went to --"

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just wait, just wait.  I'm afraid we lost the

 7     connection again.

 8             Now we have the connection.

 9             So, Mr. Karadzic, we have the transcript before us, so could you

10     ask the question.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Do you agree, Major, that in lines 9 and 10, you said that you

13     had found fragments, but you didn't know what they were?  And the

14     question that reads from 4 to 8 -- well, the question is whether it is

15     correct that these fragments were not helpful for the investigation.  Do

16     you agree?

17        A.   Which page are you referring to now?

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] As we don't have e-court,

19     Your Honours, we would need the actual page number of the transcript,

20     which can be found on the upper right-hand-side corner.  Otherwise, we're

21     not able to find it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The page number we have is 2977.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is from lines 4

24     through 8, and your answer is lines 9 and 10.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

Page 10041

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Just one observation.

 3             The witness has already answered now twice the question and said

 4     that, of course, each thing is useful.  And what Mr. Karadzic puts to the

 5     witness is basically a claim from the Defence in that other case.  So the

 6     witness has answered it now twice.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very true.

 8             So what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  And let's move on from

 9     this topic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  But the question was

11     whether it was helpful, whether they found something that helped the

12     investigation, and obviously that was not the case.

13             Let us move on now.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Would you please focus on your statement of 1996, page 3.

16             The ERN number, if it's of assistance to anyone, is 0062-2066.

17             Can you see that?  You concluded that you could not tell from

18     which direction this projectile had come; right?  You entered the house,

19     and it was impossible to tell the direction from which it had come?  Do

20     you see that?

21             [In English] "We also went inside the house where the bomb had

22     landed."

23             [Interpretation] Do you see that part:

24             "We also went into the house where the bomb had landed"?

25        A.   [Indiscernible] "... direction of the fire.  All the windows were

Page 10042

 1     broken."

 2             Yes, I agree with that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can I now ask you whether you remember one of the

 4     witnesses telling you something unusual in relation to a parachute in

 5     respect of this bomb?

 6        A.   Yes.  One of the witnesses from Mount Igman told us something

 7     about that there was a parachute coming out of the bomb just before it

 8     landed.

 9        Q.   It's the penultimate paragraph, right?

10             [In English] "A member of the ABH Army."

11             [Interpretation] What do you say to that?  Had there been a

12     parachute?

13        A.   Yes.  That was a witness observation, not our observation.

14        Q.   However, you did draw some conclusion on the direction from which

15     it had come, and your conclusion was that the projectile had arrived from

16     the general direction of the separation line; right?

17        A.   Yes, from the separation line or the front-line to Ilidza, due to

18     the fact that all the way windows in buildings were broken on both side

19     of the street where it passed over.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you say from which side of the separation line

21     the projectile had come?

22        A.   I could not say by our own observations that we have to -- and we

23     drew the conclusion due to the witness statement -- the witness

24     statements, or not statements, but what the witness told us.

25        Q.   You are talking about the witness who was a member of the Army of

Page 10043

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

 2        A.   Yes, and also, I believe, civilians in the area to which we

 3     talked to told us.  And you could follow the trace, and it had passed

 4     over buildings all the way to the confrontation line against Ilidza.  So

 5     it was our conclusion it had to come from somewhere in Ilidza, from this

 6     old farmhouse there in that area.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You investigated another incident, a sniping

 8     incident; right?

 9        A.   Yes, several sniping incidents in the time I was in Hrasnica,

10     yes.

11        Q.   Before that, let us please have a look at the question put to you

12     by Judge Robinson.

13             Could you please look at transcript page 679 in the Milosevic

14     case, the Milosevic case, 679.  The 65 ter number is 10231, or, rather,

15     321.  Sorry.  535 is the page.  55, the page is 55.  Judge Robinson is

16     putting a question to you:

17             [In English] "Can I ask you something?  Without the statement

18     from the witness, would you have been able to determine the direction

19     from which the bomb came?"

20             [Interpretation] You say:

21             [In English] "We only then could assume, from what I mentioned,

22     this window, that it had come from that direction."

23             [Interpretation] Is that right?  Can you see your answer, and is

24     that your position?

25        A.   I'm not quite sure where we are on the page.  I have page 65 --

Page 10044

 1     55 here.  And what line?

 2        Q.   679.  The transcript page is 679.  From lines 12 to 14 is the

 3     question of Judge Robinson, and from line 15 to line 20 is your answer.

 4        A.   That is correct.  I still agree with the answer from then.  We

 5     could only assume where it came from.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to draw your attention to an incident of

 7     the 17th of November, 1994, the death of two children.  Do you remember

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And do you remember that that was your first investigation?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Since November comes after April, you believe that in

13     April -- actually, sorry, that was 1995.  I beg your pardon.  Thank you.

14             Do you remember that you had not carried out that investigation

15     on the very same day either?

16        A.   I know -- I didn't follow the question.  About the

17     17th of November, I only can say that there was an explosion from

18     a mortar or an artillery piece.  It was an artillery piece,

19     120 millimetre, in the children's garden in Hrasnica.

20        Q.   However, my question was -- I mean, you confirmed that this was

21     the first investigation you had ever carried out in your life.  Is it

22     correct that you did not carry out that investigation on the same day

23     when the incident occurred?

24        A.   I don't remember it was the same day or the same afternoon,

25     because this was sometime day-time.  If we did that in the afternoon or

Page 10045

 1     the next morning, I don't remember just now.  The fact is, as I remember

 2     it, that there had been people close to the grenade hole and disturbed it

 3     a bit, so we could not be accurate on the distance.  The direction was --

 4     although traces from the grenade showed the direction, but we could not

 5     give any angle to the tail of the bomb.  So we could not give any

 6     distance on general area from where it came, as I recall it now.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  It seems that you remember this well.  Do you

 8     remember that some children had taken the tail-fin away before you

 9     arrived?

10        A.   That was -- that was what I referred to when I said that had

11     been people close to the crater.  The crater had been touched, so we

12     could not give the distance or the angle of the grenade, and, therefore,

13     it just was a general direction we could give.

14        Q.   Thank you, Major.  Then you said, in conclusion, that it was most

15     probably the case, et cetera, et cetera, that it had come from the Serb

16     side?

17        A.   Yeah, we said so.  And I don't remember details, of course,

18     15 years after, but the traces around the crater was not disturbed, so

19     that's why we could give a general direction.  But we missed -- or we did

20     not have any angle of the tail, so we could not estimate the distance, as

21     I remember it now.  I remember it a bit special with the first

22     investigation we are a part of.  I was not alone on the investigation.

23     But this one was the first one, and the result of the explosion was so

24     tragic for a young captain at that time that was still having small

25     babies back home, so that's why I remember it the way I do.

Page 10046

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Okay.  The court reporter has some

 2     technical difficulty.

 3             Has it now been solved?

 4             I note the time.  It's time to have a break.  We'll have a break

 5     for half an hour and resume at 1.00.  Then, Mr. Karadzic, you'll have

 6     about more than half an hour to conclude.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   Major, can you hear me?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   When you arrived there, you were given a stabiliser to place in

14     the tunnel in which it had been; right?

15        A.   I don't hear -- I didn't hear the question.

16        Q.   What I mean is the stabiliser had been removed, but later on you

17     placed some stabiliser back in place to determine the bearing?

18        A.   No, the stabiliser or the tail of such a device is just giving

19     us the -- from the angle it stands in the ground gives us a possibility

20     to determine the distance.  The traces around the crater gives us more

21     the direction, due to how the device is spreading when it explodes and

22     hits the ground.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think the statement should be put to the

Page 10047

 1     witness, where he basically speaks about these things.  We had it already

 2     once on the screen, and he goes into details in that statement, but it

 3     should be in front of him.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope you have that

 5     statement from 1996.  It's page 4:

 6             "I went on site together with Wilson Ferreire from Brazil the

 7     next morning at 7.00 a.m.  The stabiliser was already taken by a child,

 8     but we could determine the direction of fire by traces on the ground.

 9     The direction was very clear ..."

10             And so on.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you see that passage?

13        A.   Yeah, the direction was very clear, yes.

14        Q.   Do you agree, nevertheless, that the police was not securing that

15     site very well if a child was able to carry away the stabiliser?

16        A.   It can be agreed they had not secured the site good enough,

17     because the so-called tape markings they had done was around -- in the

18     trees around were not covering the crater.  So that was not good enough,

19     that's for sure, although all the marks were clear on the ground still,

20     even though a child had been there and removed the tail.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Also on page 4, you say that it had most probably

22     come from the territory held by the Republika Srpska Army, and it says:

23             "The VRS lines were 1200 metres away from the place of impact."

24             What is the smallest -- the minimum distance from which a

25     120-millimetre mortar can be fired?

Page 10048

 1        A.   I'm not an expert, as I said, on the data.  I don't remember, but

 2     it should not be a long distance.  So as this was the 120 millimetres,

 3     it's -- I cannot -- I cannot say the smallest distance.

 4        Q.   If I tell you that with a basic charge, that distance is

 5     80 metres, do you agree that between 80 metres and 1200 metres up to the

 6     line, the territory was controlled by the BH Army and could also have

 7     been the origin of fire?

 8        A.   Well, as I said, in this special case I only can determine the

 9     direction.  And as the tail had been touched and removed, we could not

10     give exact distance.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I should now like to deal with the investigation into

12     sniping incidents.  Do you recall that you were engaged in that kind of

13     activity too?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you carry such investigations on site, taking into account

16     the position of the body on the point of impact, or did you investigate

17     that elsewhere?

18        A.   Are you referring to any special sniping that happened or in

19     general?  We had a lot of sniping investigations.

20        Q.   I would like to draw your attention to this incident involving

21     the 17-year-old girl.  In Milosevic, it was page 637 of the transcript,

22     65 ter 10321, page 13 -- in fact, 11.

23             You saw a girl heading in a certain direction, and you later

24     learned that she was hit by something?

25        A.   Yes, she -- we saw that girl back -- or I saw.  I then had to go

Page 10049

 1     with civilian police to the morgue alone, and I saw that girl again in

 2     that morgue.  She was shot by something, 14.7 or 14.6-calibre weapon.

 3     She's been hit by that one.  The wound was through the body on her left

 4     side, as I recall.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could you look at page 11 of this transcript.  It

 6     says you first found -- in your version, it's page 635:

 7             [In English] "Very first we have to find out how this -- which

 8     way was this person facing when he was hit.  And after that, we have to

 9     investigate the body to see the incoming/outgoing wounds."

10             [Interpretation] Is it true you saw that girl going somewhere,

11     but you did not see which way she was facing at the moment when she was

12     shot?

13        A.   That is true.  We passed that girl when we were on our way from

14     the airport to accommodation, and she was in that direction, you can say,

15     facing against Ilidza.  She followed the road and was walking that way.

16        Q.   Thank you.  On page 13, you --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would you kindly refer to the real page number so

18     that the witness can follow, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.  It's 637 in the transcript.

20     The previous page was 635.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On 637, you explain that you estimated the direction of fire on

23     the basis of the entry-and-exit wound; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   It's line 8 -- line 9 is the question, and your answers are 11,

Page 10050

 1     12 and 14:

 2             [In English] "An incoming or ingoing wound is a -- more hole, but

 3     after the bullet -- when it goes out, it takes pieces ..."

 4             [Interpretation] And you say in line 14:

 5             [In English] "... and you can clearly see where it comes out."

 6             [Interpretation] Is that correct?

 7        A.   That's correct, yes.  It might have hit bones, whatever, inside,

 8     and then when it comes out, there's a more unshaped mark in the body.

 9        Q.   Is that your common sense or some kind of training that you had

10     to examine a dead body?

11        A.   We also had that on the UNMO course, a lot of examples with

12     pictures, a lot of -- or explaining how things can be.  We are not

13     forensics, so it's just common sense.

14        Q.   Thank you.  So there were a lot of limitations, but still

15     conclusion was produced that the projectile originated from the VRS, from

16     the Army of Republika Srpska.  That's your 1996 statement, page 5:

17             [In English] "One of the sniping I remember is when I saw a

18     girl ..."

19             [No interpretation]

20             [In English] "From the position she was walking in, the shot had

21     to be fired from the Lukavica side, which was VRS-held territory ."

22             [Interpretation] Is that right?

23             JUDGE KWON:  You said page 5?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the 1996 statement, ERN 0062

25     up to 0068.

Page 10051

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   May I now ask you, what were your premises for this conclusion?

 4     You did not see the person at the time she was shot.  You did not conduct

 5     an investigation on site, but in the morgue.  You just presumed that she

 6     continued in the same direction as she was walking when you saw her?

 7        A.   Yes, and from that position she was hit, from there to the

 8     front-line again in Lukavica was open area, so we could not observe any

 9     weapons in that area.  So we assumed, again, and used common sense that

10     the weapon had to be hidden in the hillside on the VRS or Serbian side.

11        Q.   Thank you.  May I draw your attention to the transcript in

12     Perisic, page 2971.  That's page 2971 in Perisic.  The question is from

13     13 to 15.  Please look at it so I don't have to read it.

14             You say:  "Correct ..."

15             [In English] "You just had to assume that she was still walking

16     somewhere and had -- she will not be walking for no reasons because there

17     was firing in the area."

18             [Interpretation] First of all, you are relying on your

19     supposition that she never turned at any point, and if she never turned,

20     the bullet could have come from Serb territory.

21             And the second thing that puzzles me is that there was fighting

22     around.  Was she hit by a sniper or was she caught in cross-fire?

23        A.   When we passed, there were no -- there was shooting from the

24     Serb-held area behind us, not the other way, even though it could have

25     been, when we left, shooting the other way.  So that is not possible for

Page 10052

 1     me to answer.

 2        Q.   Now, the Milosevic transcript, page 649, look at lines 3 to 9,

 3     65 ter 10321:

 4             [In English] "Later on did you investigate a sniping incident

 5     involving this girl?

 6             "A.  Yes.  I was called upon by the civilian policeman to join

 7     him to inspect a victim.

 8             "Q.  And how long after you had seen her walking were you called

 9     to investigate this incident?

10             "A.  One hour, maximum."

11             [Interpretation] Right?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   One hour later, you were called to the morgue?

14        A.   [No verbal response]

15        Q.   So we can only assume that she never changed direction or turned

16     around because of the shooting.  We have to rely on that assumption that

17     she continued to walk in the same direction for a whole hour, after you

18     saw her, until she was shot?

19        A.   Yeah, we had to assume that, because people were trying to come

20     to shelter, to houses, due to the fact that there was shooting in the

21     area.  So we assumed that, and that's the only thing I can say about it.

22        Q.   Can you look at the Perisic transcript, 2971, page 890 -- sorry,

23     page 29 in P890.

24             Do you confirm that you had seen, in the possession of the

25     BH Army, 2.7-millimetre [as interpreted] snipers and that the wound on

Page 10053

 1     this girl, both the entry and exit wounds, were large, and that made you

 2     think that it was a big calibre?

 3        A.   Yes, it was a 12.7 or 14.6 I assume the hit to be from.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You answered a question by Judge Robinson in the

 5     trial of General Milosevic, page 650 --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the other

 7     numbers.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   These are rather large wounds.  The entry wound was about

10     5 centimetres, and the exit wound between 10 and 20 centimetres?

11        A.   Yeah, it was a big hole.  To measure it in centimetres today,

12     it's impossible, but it was -- obviously, it was not a normal

13     small-arms -- small-calibre weapon used.

14        Q.   Thank you.  May I now ask you to look at the Perisic transcript;

15     page 2970, 65 ter 15890, page 28.  And here in the Perisic case, you say

16     that it was --

17             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Could counsel repeat the page

18     number.

19             JUDGE KWON:  He said "2970."

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perisic, page 2970.  That leads me

21     to think it was cross-fire.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you see your conclusion?

24        A.   In line ...?

25        Q.   From 18 to 22.  And in line 22, you conclude that there was a

Page 10054

 1     heavy exchange of fire in that area on that day.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, that's not exactly what the

 3     witness said.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 5             Just a second, Mr. Overgard.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's not what is exactly stated here.

 7     It's not "exchange of fire," it only says here "some heavy firing."

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, "heavy firing into the area."

 9             Yes.  Could you -- I think now, having read that, Mr. Overgard

10     can answer the question.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  There was no exchange or cross-firing when we

12     passed.  Whatever happened afterwards, I cannot say, but there was

13     shooting from the Serb area when we passed.  That's why we speeded up,

14     and we passed a girl, and we came quickly to -- or we had to stop a bit

15     at the end of that flat area before we continued.

16             So what is really the question about it?  That was a bigger gun.

17     This was not a small-arm firing or bullet causing the damage on that

18     girl.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Here's what confuses me:  You don't say that the Serbs were

21     shooting.  You say that there was heavy firing, not heavy weapons.  Heavy

22     firing, if I understand correctly, is a lot of firing.  This passage from

23     line 18 down --

24        A.   Yes, there was a lot of fire into that area when we passed, not

25     from.

Page 10055

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I also have to say that Mr. Karadzic should

 4     be fair, because the witness says the very same thing on the next page,

 5     where he says the fire came from the east.  So it's not that he didn't

 6     mention it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  From the east of airport area.

 8             So if you could read through until the first part of the next

 9     page, and you will have -- you can clarify further, Mr. Overgard.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   On this previous page, Mr. Overgard, is it true that you accepted

12     it was unusual for the 12.7 machine-gun to be used as a sniper?

13        A.   It was at that time not very often we saw that, but we learned

14     that people also were hit by 12.7 and also bigger.

15        Q.   All right.  We can only regret that you did not offer that girl a

16     lift.  But what I want to say is that we distinguish between sniping

17     against a person from fire.  What I'm trying to say is that you have no

18     evidence this was a sniper bullet.

19        A.   That's correct.  It could have been a result of that firing into

20     that area.  It's also what it was investigated, as a person hit, not as a

21     sniping.  But she is a civilian hit.  Someone has pulled the trigger.

22        Q.   Thank you.  But it was a civilian moving in an area under fire;

23     right?

24        A.   That's correct, it became under fire.  It should not be any

25     firing in the area, but there was, and she, unluckily, was there when it

Page 10056

 1     started.  As UN personnel, we are not allowed to give lift to anyone, so

 2     we are not taxi.  That's why we are there, for reporting and

 3     investigation.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 5             I'm afraid we may be losing the connection again.  Very true.

 6             How much longer do you have, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, less than half an hour.

 8     20 minutes, I believe I'll manage to finish within 20 minutes.  I'm going

 9     to skip certain topics.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Finish in 15 minutes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should have offered 40.  Maybe I

12     would have been given half an hour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, that is not the case.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Just one more question from transcript page 629 in the trial of

17     General Milosevic.

18             I'm a bit confused.  Line 6, 7 and 8.

19             Is it correct that you sent your reports directly to the

20     Security Council?

21        A.   Could you repeat, please?

22        Q.   Line 6:

23             [In English] "Q.  And during time of war, what is the job of an

24     UNMO?"

25             "A.  It is to observe, investigate and to report, and we're

Page 10057

 1     reporting directly to the Security Council."

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Thank you.  Have you seen an order of

 4     General Milosevic of the 4th of April, that is to say, two days before

 5     the order that had been shown to you?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   I hope you have it now, D782.  Could you please cast a glance at

 8     that, D782.

 9        A.   I haven't seen this one before, no, that I can remember.

10        Q.   Do you agree that it's from the same commander and that it's

11     being sent to the same subordinate, like the one dated the

12     6th of April --

13        A.   It says --

14        Q.   -- the one that refers to --

15        A.   Seems so, yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can I now ask you to have a look at these localities

17     or toponyms.  Actually, look at paragraph 2 and then 3, where the

18     howitzer batteries are, and so on and so forth.

19             Can I now ask you to look at page 2.  Page 2, "Tasks."

20             "Prevent the enemy infantry ..."

21             Et cetera.  Then it says:

22             "Proskok -- Dujmovici, Proskok, Precko, and Bosko -- Precko,

23     Dejtici [phoen], Ledici ..."

24             Et cetera.  Were you aware of these places?  They were held by

25     the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 10058

 1        A.   I don't remember all the names here, I don't at the moment, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you:

 3             "Prevent enemy breakthrough."

 4             Then certain toponyms are referred to yet again.  And look at

 5     this part of the order:

 6             "Neutralise the activity of enemy artillery and mortars."

 7             And then:

 8             "Immediately upon taking up firing positions, proceed to make

 9     fire adjustment with the battery's main artillery pieces and direct fire

10     artillery pieces upon the first detected target."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you remember that in the order of the 6th, it is stated that

14     the enemy continues to attack within the area of the Famos factory and is

15     trying to enter Grlica and Vojkovici, Serb neighbourhoods?  Actually, you

16     know that those are Serb neighbourhoods that are near the Famos factory;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes, I know that.  I don't remember just what is said in the

19     earlier documents, but I know the names, and more I can't say about that.

20        Q.   Well, I would be interested in hearing whether you see that this

21     order is sort of a whole with the order that came two days later, that is

22     to say, stopping activities coming from the Muslim zone.  Right?

23        A.   Maybe, yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you whether you knew what the

25     fire-power was of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina from Hrasnica and

Page 10059

 1     right above Hrasnica, from Igman.

 2        A.   You are asking about what power they had.  I cannot say, because

 3     I do not know all of it, whatever was placed in the area.

 4        Q.   I'd like to ask you something now.  Is it correct that at Igman,

 5     in Hrasnica, Kovacki, Glavogodina -- actually, do you know of

 6     Glavogodina, Kovacki, Igmanski Stan -- sorry, Hrasnicki Stan, Malo Polje

 7     in Igman?  Are these localities where the artillery support of these

 8     units was, these units that were in and around Hrasnica?

 9        A.   The names of the places are familiar.  What was there still, I

10     cannot tell you today anymore.  It's not what I have been thinking of

11     since then.  So we did not -- I only, in the Hrasnica area, once found

12     artillery.  That artillery was removed and away when we came back to

13     investigate further, because it was given a protest to our headquarter

14     that was forwarded.  So where that artillery or weapons took -- or was --

15     were brought and so on, I can't tell you, because it was just gone and we

16     never saw it again.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that Colonel, later General,

18     Fikret Prevljak had a way of making sure you do not see some of the

19     things that he does not want you to see, and that he had ways of

20     preventing you from getting to places where he did not want you?  Right?

21        A.   Of course, that's why we had restrictions of movements.  We had

22     to negotiate, and he was not giving us access to certain areas certain

23     times.  That's the way of doing it.  It's a war going on, and they can

24     say one thing, and that's for our own security.  Of course, we know,

25     then, it might happen, things that they don't want us to see.  That's for

Page 10060

 1     sure.  It happens on all sides.

 2        Q.   Thank you, thank you very much.  During our interview, you

 3     confirmed that you spent quite a bit of time at Igman, and that at the

 4     time you had no way of knowing of what was going on at Hrasnica, and the

 5     other way around; right?

 6        A.   Yes, I'm used to winter-time or the winter period, especially

 7     very much in the Igman area, because I come from far north in the country

 8     Norway and I'm used to winter conditions.  So I often did day patrols in

 9     Mount Igman area.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You have confirmed to us that you were aware of the

11     fact that the tunnel underneath a runway that went to Butmir and Hrasnica

12     was used for moving BH Army units in and out of town.  Do you agree that

13     that had to be done across the Igman road that we discussed and that you

14     actually saw soldiers from Igman arriving in Hrasnica down that road?

15        A.   Yes, the road from Igman down to Hrasnica was used for, I

16     believe, very much of the supplies to Hrasnica, Sarajevo, and the people

17     coming forth and back.  Where, exactly, what routes they used down from

18     the bus stop area, as we called it, up on Igman and down, that was a lot

19     of routes, and I'm not aware of all of them.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You agreed that the Army of Republika Srpska did not

21     show any ambition to take Hrasnica, and that from that point of view,

22     they did not carry out any offensive activities vis-a-vis Hrasnica;

23     right?

24        A.   I don't think I agree that there was no thoughts about the taking

25     of Hrasnica.  The Hrasnica area I believe they wanted, because of the

Page 10061

 1     fact of the localities there could be important for supplies in and out

 2     of Sarajevo.  So I did not agree with that.

 3             Where people walked and where they was transported and how they

 4     was transported from Hrasnica into Sarajevo in my time, I am not aware.

 5     Just before we left, in that spring, they started to dig that tunnel

 6     underneath the airport, but that was not used, I believe, before I left.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's time to conclude.  I would like

 8     you to conclude in two or three minutes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Did you agree that when a shell would fall in Hrasnica, you did

11     not call your colleagues from the Serb side, the Lima side, in order to

12     ask the Army of Republika Srpska to stop firing?

13        A.   No, I can't agree to that, because we reported the incoming fire

14     to our headquarter as a sitrep and later on the same day in a daily

15     report, and they did the -- and the headquarter then went to each side to

16     protest.

17        Q.   Thank you.  One more question.  The 104th Brigade had up to

18     5.000 soldiers, at least three battalions, and their headquarters.  You

19     could not see anything except for their Main Staff.  Were you aware of

20     the camps for Serb prisoners, Serb detainees, civilians and soldiers, in

21     Hrasnica?  There were several of them; near the schools, the basement of

22     the police station, and other places.  Did they make it possible for you

23     to see these camps in Hrasnica?

24        A.   I did not see any prisoner camps in Hrasnica area when I was

25     there.

Page 10062

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just the very last question.  Do you know that

 2     at Hrasnicki Stan, there was an operations group, and at Malo Polje,

 3     above Hrasnica, on Igman was the 101st Mountain Brigade, and that

 4     Juka Prazina, as it says in this UN report, led a special police

 5     battalion, and that the 4th Brigade, all of it, was on those

 6     three kilometres that are in Hrasnica, from the line on the east to the

 7     line on the west; right?

 8        A.   Yes, there were soldiers in the Hrasnica area.  How many, I don't

 9     know.  Where they were located, I didn't see any camps, although they

10     could be in old buildings around, which was a lot of houses, and we are

11     patrolling, and I do believe that they tried to hide things for us.

12     That's -- that's a fact we know of.  I cannot say that I saw any specific

13     camps.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Major, I thank you most sincerely

15     for the effort you have made in order to testify before this Tribunal.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any

17     re-examination?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, very briefly; only two

19     points.  One is basically the last question or propositions that

20     Dr. Karadzic made.

21                           Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

22        Q.   He spoke about 5.000 soldiers, three battalions, and so on and so

23     forth.  Did you see such an amount of soldiers ever in the area where you

24     were patrolling?

25        A.   No.  I can say we saw in the periods and certain days, there were

Page 10063

 1     a lot of soldiers, other days less.  How many there were, it was

 2     impossible for us to count or to make assessments.

 3        Q.   And when you say "a lot," what do you mean by "a lot"?

 4        A.   You could say when the town -- this small town centre was crowded

 5     and so on, it was civilians, a lot of soldiers.  It was not possible to

 6     count anything, but we assumed that it was soldiers on their way either

 7     to Sarajevo or from Sarajevo area, passing through.  They did not stay

 8     for long anyway.

 9        Q.   And I just want to clarify one point, and that's:  On page 75,

10     line 20, beginning, Dr. Karadzic put to you -- in relation to that girl

11     that you saw walking, he put to you that one would then have to assume

12     that she continued to walk in the same direction for an entire hour.  And

13     my question to you is:  Do you know when exactly she was shot after you

14     have passed her?

15        A.   No, that's for sure.  And I also wanted to say that it took

16     one hour from, you could say, we were back in our accommodation.  When

17     she was hit, I don't know, but then all the messages had gone through to

18     the police, and the police was asking for help, and we did so.  That's,

19     of course, not -- she's not been walking for an hour, so -- but I assume,

20     because she was in a hurry probably to come to safety.  So it could have

21     happened five seconds after we passed her, so that's impossible to say.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, thank you.

23             Your Honour, these are my questions, and I was just wondering

24     about an exhibit that Mr. Karadzic, at least according to e-mail, wants

25     to tender in part, whether we should discuss it while the witness is

Page 10064

 1     still on-line or not.  I don't think it's necessary to have him sitting

 2     there while we do that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Then that concludes your evidence, Major Overgard.

 4     On behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for

 5     giving it --

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  -- despite difficult conditions.  I wish you all the

 8     best in the new year and good health.  Thank you, Major.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, and have a pleasant Christmas

10     and happy new year.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have those pages

14     admitted, the ones that we marked in that e-mail that the distinguished

15     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff referred to from the Perisic transcript.

16             JUDGE KWON:  As a part of the Perisic transcript.

17             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we, of course, do not have any

19     objection to having the transcript tendered.  However, I do not think

20     it's fair to the witness to have only the few pages tendered, as it says

21     here, as mentioned in an e-mail, because it cuts, basically, a certain

22     topic.  So my proposal would be not just to have 25 -- 2958 to 2960

23     tendered, but 2958 to 2963, because that's a topic.

24             In relation to the next topic, the proposal of Dr. Karadzic is

25     2970, 2971, and to the topic belongs also the page 2972.

Page 10065

 1             And in relation to the last topic, which is here in the e-mail

 2     going from 2977 to 2981, excluding the page 2979, I think it should be

 3     included.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any reason why not.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps.  But maybe that

 6     should have been dealt with through re-examination.  We are interested in

 7     what it was that we had tendered, but we don't mind.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  In order to see the correct context and the correct

 9     answer, we need the whole part, so we'll -- just a second.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  That part will be admitted as indicated by

12     Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.  So could you be kind enough to up-load again,

13     including those parts.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's a Prosecution document.  We

15     don't have the official version of that transcript.  However, I believe

16     that the Defence will deal with it with the Registry.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That can be done, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, we will do it accordingly.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             Shall we give the exhibit number for that?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

22     Exhibit D934.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Does this conclude the hearing for this year?

24             Yes, it does.  Thank you.

25             We'll rise, and we'll resume next year on 13th of January, that

Page 10066

 1     being Thursday.

 2             And our new witness order has been circulated.

 3             And I wish everybody a very merry, restful holiday season and a

 4     very happy new year.

 5             And I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all the staff

 6     members for their commitment and contribution to the work of the

 7     Tribunal.  I thank you.

 8             We rise.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

11                           January, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.