Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10831

 1                           Friday, 28 January 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 8             I'd like to introduce Wu Yi, who is from China and studied at the

 9     Korea University.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning.

11             Good morning, Mr. Kalbarczyk.  If you could kindly take the

12     solemn declaration, please.

13             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  JANUSZ KALBARCZYK

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

21             Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Ms. Sutherland:

23        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, could you please state your full name?

24        A.   [In English] Janusz Kalbarczyk.

25        Q.   What is your date of birth?

Page 10832

 1        A.   [Interpretation] 16th of June, 1946.

 2        Q.   I intend to lead you on a couple of background details.  You are

 3     a retired career military officer in the Polish Air Force; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, this is correct.

 6        Q.   You retired with the rank of colonel after 25 years of service?

 7        A.   It's been 30 years of service, because the period of my studies

 8     is included in the period of service.

 9        Q.   In what year did you retire?

10        A.   1996.

11        Q.   In April 1995, you were seconded from the Polish Air Force to the

12     UN to serve in Bosnia as a military observer for one year; is that right?

13        A.   Yes, this is correct.

14        Q.   And in the UN contingent, you held the rank of major?

15        A.   Yes, this is correct.

16        Q.   On the 13th of April, 1995, you were deployed to Sector Sarajevo

17     in the SE-1 Team in Pale, which was on the Bosnian Serb side; correct?

18        A.   On the 13th of April, I came to the mission in Zagreb.  I was in

19     Sarajevo about a week later, after training.

20        Q.   What sort of training did you receive?

21        A.   So I learnt about the area of the sector.  I also had refresher

22     training in first aid, principles of patrolling, rules and regulations,

23     anything that was related to UNMOs.

24        Q.   Can you describe your duty as an UNMO, a United Nations

25     Military Observer?

Page 10833

 1        A.   Well, first of all, as a member of the team to which I was

 2     seconded, my duty was to strictly observe the rules and regulations, the

 3     rules and regulations governing UNMOs, take part in patrols, be on duty.

 4     Well, it's called to be on the radio duty.  I was also asked to follow

 5     all the recommendations that were assigned to the sector, to the line.  I

 6     was also responsible for reporting any cases which were important cases

 7     or significant cases that were incompatible with the regulations, and be

 8     also objective in whatever I was supposed to be doing.  So that's, in a

 9     nutshell, everything.

10        Q.   Were you also observing incoming and outgoing fire?

11        A.   Well, during the fire, I never had an opportunity to observe, but

12     I visited places which were subject or targets of firing, from which

13     firing could have taken place.

14        Q.   And which places were these?

15        A.   I specifically remember a place which is located over Sarajevo,

16     where cannons were positioned, mortars, howitzers.  And from these

17     positions you could see Sarajevo very clearly, so I was surprised that it

18     was so easy to fire shells at the town, if there was any shelling of the

19     town from those positions.  I cannot attest to that.

20        Q.   Going back to your duty as an UNMO, were you or any member of

21     your team armed with a weapon?

22        A.   No, never.  None of our team members had any guns, and I haven't

23     seen anybody -- any other UNMO wearing any guns.

24        Q.   I want to turn now to events which began on the 26th of May,

25     1995.  How many of the team were on duty that day?

Page 10834

 1        A.   There were -- wait a minute, let me think.  I think there were

 2     five of us.  It was me, Evans, Kozusnik, Dmitri, and Pepe, who was a

 3     Spaniard, so five persons.  And our team leader was on a leave of absence

 4     at the time.  I came back a day earlier from my leave of absence.  So on

 5     the 25th, there were five or six of us, and I mentioned them by their

 6     names.

 7        Q.   What, if anything, occurred mid-morning on the 26th of May?

 8        A.   On the 26th of May, it so happened that I was on the radio duty.

 9     The weather was nice.  I got up at about 7.00, 8.00 a.m., washed, and

10     then reported readiness for duty to my headquarters in Sarajevo.  I was

11     only asked whether everything was okay, and I reported, yes, everything

12     was okay.  There was quiet around.  At between 8.00 and 9.00, sirens blew

13     in Pale.  I was disoriented, I didn't know what was going on, but I saw

14     people running away in the streets, trying to hide.

15        Q.   Did anything subsequently occur around mid-morning?

16        A.   No.  There was silence, quiet, afterwards.  Then later, for about

17     a half an hour, I heard the roar of a plane and, shortly afterwards, an

18     explosion south-east of Pale.  I saw smoke and air blast, strong air

19     blast, which shattered, which reached our accommodation.

20        Q.   After that, did anyone come to your building?

21        A.   After this event, after this explosion, about half an hour later

22     or 40 minutes later -- for about half an hour or 40 minutes later, there

23     was -- nothing was happening in the building.  I reported the explosion

24     to my sector in Sarajevo.  We got info to stay indoors, where we were

25     stationed, not to leave the building, and to report any subsequent event.

Page 10835

 1             After about 40 minutes, a car came to our building.  There were

 2     policemen -- three policemen in that car.  They entered our building.

 3     The officer in command, in command of that team, had a pistol in his

 4     hand, uncocked.  He pointed it at us, and the remaining other policemen

 5     had their Kalashnikov rifles, and they ordered us -- the officer actually

 6     ordered us to put our hands up.  He informed us that we were arrested,

 7     and he also threatened us that if there was any other air-strike, we

 8     would be shot dead.

 9             After 10 minutes --

10        Q.   If you can -- if I could get you to pause there.  When he said

11     that you would be -- if there were any more air-strikes, you would be

12     shot dead, was this coming from him or was this coming from someone else?

13     Was he -- what did he actually tell you?

14        A.   Well, precisely, he said that he had an order to shoot us still.

15        Q.   Did anyone else come to the building that morning?

16        A.   After 10 minutes, the officer left the building.  Only two

17     policemen stayed, and they let us put our hands down.  My interpreters

18     started negotiating with these policemen.  They wanted us to have some

19     coffee.  They wanted to ease the tension.  And so it happened, everybody

20     got coffee or tea to their liking.

21             And after around 40 minutes, two cars pulled up outside the

22     house.  BSA soldiers got off the cars.  There was a young officer in

23     command, maybe 32, 33 years old, and they entered the building.  The

24     policemen and the soldiers started talking, the officer in command

25     started talking to the policemen, and from what I could gather was that

Page 10836

 1     the policemen tried to explain to the officer that we were -- we had been

 2     under their control.  The officer, in a very decisive tone, said that

 3     from then on, he was in charge, that we -- he said exactly that, from

 4     that very moment, we were being taken hostage by the army, by the BAS

 5     [as interpreted].

 6        Q.   Sorry.  When you said -- it was interpreted as "BAS" and earlier

 7     you said "BSA," what does this acronym stand for?

 8        A.   They called themselves Bosnian Serbian Army.

 9        Q.   So at that point when the military and the police had the

10     discussion, did you then stay in the building?  And if not, where did you

11     go?

12        A.   This was all in our presence.  The discussion took place where we

13     were, in the very same room.

14             The soldiers that were accompanying the officer, they helped

15     themselves to our belongings.  They took our knives, pens, nothing that

16     mattered, really.  After all these explanations and exchanges, we got two

17     minutes to take some of our belongings.  He pointed out that we should

18     take some warm clothes.  And after that, we were taken outside, and we

19     were chained, handcuffed in pairs.  I was handcuffed with

20     Zlatko Kozusnik, and we were taken to cars.  Before that, the officer

21     told us to give up our keys to the UN cars.

22             In the car, I was handcuffed to my seat together with Kozusnik.

23     There was a driver, military driver, in the front of the car.  There was

24     also another soldier with a Kalashnikov, and all the others were in other

25     cars.

Page 10837

 1        Q.   When you say "all the others," are you talking about Evans and

 2     the person that you referred to as Pepe earlier?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know the name of -- the surname of Pepe from Spain?

 5        A.   I don't recall.  Generally, we addressed one another by first

 6     names, just like in our native tongues.  I think it was Romero.  I'm not

 7     sure.

 8        Q.   So you were both -- put in two different vehicles, the team, and

 9     where were you taken?

10        A.   We were put in four vehicles.  Two cars were the cars that were

11     used by the military that came to us, and the two cars were

12     confiscated -- the UN cars were confiscated.  I'm not sure how the others

13     were distributed in the other cars, but there were four vehicles.  They

14     had four vehicles at their disposal.  So in the car that I was in, there

15     was just myself and Kozusnik.

16             Now, from the building we went to the center of Pale.  Then every

17     vehicle stopped in the center.  The doors were open, soldiers left the

18     cars, and we were in some kind of market-place.  There were quite a lot

19     of civilians there, some soldiers as well.  Some were very, very excited.

20     They were excited with the victory, in inverted commas.  So this is what

21     I felt.  They were overjoyed, they were laughing, they were mocking us,

22     they insulted us, abused us verbally, and one of the civilians even came

23     up to me and spat at my face.  It was a very dangerous moment.  This

24     aggression that we witnessed, not everybody was involved, but this

25     aggression grew.

Page 10838

 1        Q.   How long did you stay in Pale for?

 2        A.   We were there for about 10 to 15 minutes.

 3        Q.   And then where were you taken?

 4        A.   Then we could clearly see that they probably -- this is what I

 5     feel, that they got an order to leave fast and go to a place that I'm

 6     going to mention in a minute.

 7             We moved in the direction of a big explosion.  As I learned

 8     later, we went to the very exact place where some ammunition depots were

 9     hit in Pale.

10        Q.   When you say you moved in the direction of a big explosion, was

11     that in the direction of the explosion that you saw earlier that day?

12        A.   Yes, so in the direction of the big explosion, and that was the

13     very explosion.

14             When we were nearing the place, I saw my colleagues who probably

15     came earlier.  It was like a valley, canyon, where some ammunition depots

16     were masked or hidden.  What was inside, I'm not sure.

17        Q.   Do you know -- did this area have a name?

18        A.   I think it was generally called Jahorinski Potok,

19     Jahorinski Potok or Canyon.

20        Q.   You mentioned that you saw some colleagues.  Who were they?

21        A.   As far as I remember, it was a Russian UNMO; Patrick, from Lima 7

22     team.  Both of them were there; and also a Czech, Olek [phoen], from

23     Lima 7 as well.  He was chained to the door of a storage facility, steel

24     door.

25             We were driving on into the canyon, and first Kozusnik had to get

Page 10839

 1     out of the car.  He was --

 2        Q.   If I could just pause you there for a moment.

 3             Just going back to -- you mentioned the person called Patrick,

 4     and I know that you said you referred to people by their first names, but

 5     do you recall his second name at all?

 6        A.   Rechner, a Canadian UNMO.  Rechner, if I remember correctly.

 7        Q.   And do you know the Czech UNMO that you are referring to as Olek?

 8     Do you know what his first or last name are?

 9        A.   Well, all of us called him "Olek," but I cannot recall his last

10     name at this point.  Well, we lived by the rule that we have no interest

11     in each other's last names.  Everyone was recognised based on our

12     abbreviated names, but only in the documentation they would have our real

13     names.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could -- I would like you to watch a short

15     video-clip now.  It's 65 ter 40202A.

16             If we could play the clip from 30:52 to 32:46.

17        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, if you could watch the video on your screen.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Just pause there.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is a Russian from Lima 7.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And we paused the tape at 31:06.

22             If we could continue, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's Patrick,

25     Patrick Rechner.  He's Canadian.  He's from Lima 7.

Page 10840

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And we paused the tape at 31:40.

 2             If we could continue, please.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct, that's

 5     Patrick.

 6             This is Olek from Czech Republic.  He was handcuffed to the

 7     warehouse door, and you can see his plaque.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   When you say "his plaque," do you mean his patch on his uniform?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct, on his pant, a patch.  But I can recognise

11     his face very clearly.  It was a young guy.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We've stopped the tape at 32:02.

13             If we could continue, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, more or less, that was the

16     way we actually moved deeper into the canyon.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So you saw the Russian and Mr. Rechner handcuffed to

19     the poles, and you also saw the Czech UNMO, Olek, who was handcuffed to

20     the door of the ammunition depot.  Did you and Kozusnik stay with these

21     three UNMOs?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  May I tender that

23     video-clip?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be admitted and given the next

25     Prosecution exhibit number.

Page 10841

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P2153.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wonder -- I wonder whether the

 3     Trial Chamber has the interpretation of the journalist's words.  Namely,

 4     the journalist says that they are suspected of having guided NATO

 5     aircraft towards Serbian targets.  So it would be good if the

 6     Trial Chamber had the interpretation of the words.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this video footage will be played

 8     with the witness who's testifying next Tuesday, who will -- and the

 9     transcript will be used with that witness.  This witness simply --

10             JUDGE KWON:  For the purpose of this witness, you wanted to

11     identify the UNMOs who were in --

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  He was clearly being driven

13     by in a car and didn't hear what was being said on the video.  He saw the

14     images and saw the three men, so that was why I didn't use the transcript

15     with this witness.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's proceed in that way.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, I asked you whether you stayed with the three

19     UNMOs that we just saw on the video-clip.

20        A.   Our vehicle passed these three UNMOs, and we were driving on into

21     the canyon.  After 200 metres, Kozusnik had to get out of the car, and he

22     was handcuffed to some warehouse or to some pole - I don't remember

23     correctly - and they were driving me further on in the direction of this

24     big explosion.  The place where I was handcuffed was the last building

25     that remained in the proximity of the huge hole that remained after the

Page 10842

 1     explosion.  There were also single minor explosions of the ammunition, or

 2     from time to time we could hear the explosions.

 3             I was handcuffed to the lightning road [as interpreted].  The

 4     soldiers were doing this very quickly, rather quickly.  I could guess

 5     they were in a hurry.

 6        Q.   If you could just pause there, Mr. Kalbarczyk.  The

 7     interpretation said you were handcuffed to the lightning road.  You meant

 8     "lightning rod" or you said "lightning rod," did you not?

 9        A.   It was kind of a line that leads a current to the ground, the

10     current.

11        Q.   You also mentioned that there were single minor explosions of the

12     ammunition from time to time.  Was that during the time that you were

13     handcuffed to this lightning rod?

14        A.   Yes, this was this place.

15        Q.   How close were these explosions to where you were handcuffed?

16        A.   About 60, 80 metres.  So this was a threat to me, but at the time

17     I was not thinking about it that much.

18        Q.   For what purpose did you think that you were being handcuffed to

19     this installation?

20        A.   Well, I could have guessed easily that the Serbs were expecting

21     another air-strike and we served as human shields, protecting these

22     locations or these facilities which were of strategic importance for

23     them.  This is how I understood that at the time.

24        Q.   How long were you handcuffed to this rod?

25        A.   About four and a half hours.  It was in scorching sun.  After

Page 10843

 1     about two hours, two soldiers brought me a piece of bread and a can, but

 2     without any can opener.  I hadn't got any water, either, and I needed

 3     water most.  Ten metres away from me, there was a brook, a somewhat small

 4     stream, with pure water.  They gave me the food, and they were in a hurry

 5     to leave this place as quickly as possible.

 6             And after another two, two and a half hours, so altogether it was

 7     four and a half hours I was there, the two soldiers came in a car.

 8        Q.   Can I just get you to pause there.  When you were first taken to

 9     the rod, were you videotaped?  Was footage taken of you at the rod?

10        A.   Yes.  At the time when I was being chained, handcuffed, an

11     officer with a film camera came, and he was filming me being chained to

12     that place, to the rod, in the place where I was brought to, and he

13     didn't say a word.

14        Q.   Now, you said that you were there for four to four and a half

15     hours.  Can you just describe for the Trial Chamber what you were going

16     through during this period?

17        A.   I was very stressed.  I was prepared to die.  I thought that

18     these air-strikes could be repeated and there is a real possibility of me

19     being killed during the air-strike, repeated air-strike.

20        Q.   So then you mentioned that after, two soldiers came in a car?

21        A.   Yes, that's right.

22        Q.   Did you leave the -- did you leave the depot where you were?

23        A.   Yes.  They unchained me.  They took me -- put me in the vehicle.

24     And on our return journey, they also took or picked Rechner, in other

25     words, Patrick.  As regards the other colleagues, they were left in the

Page 10844

 1     places in which they were chained.

 2             We drove in the direction of Pale, and we got to the check-point

 3     as you leave Pale in the direction of Sarajevo.  The car stopped there,

 4     and we were blindfolded.  In the car, there was the driver.  He was a

 5     military driver.  There was a cameraman, a civilian.  I guess he was a

 6     journalist, some journalist.  And there was another soldier, masked, with

 7     a Kalashnikov.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could ask you to now watch a short

 9     video-clip.  It's 65 ter 40557C.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could just pause there.  Sorry, we paused

12     at .21 on the screen.

13        Q.   Did you recognise anything in that short piece of footage we just

14     saw?

15        A.   I recognise myself.  I can't see -- I can't tell you who is on

16     the side, sitting on the side, but I guess it's Patrick.

17        Q.   And what are you wearing?

18        A.   I'm wearing a summer uniform.  This was the uniform -- I was on

19     duty when I was first arrested.

20        Q.   And what colour is the uniform?

21        A.   It's blue, blue shirt, blue trousers.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can continue with the video.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could stop the video there.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, were you told where you were being taken before

Page 10845

 1     you were blindfolded or before you were both blindfolded?

 2        A.   From the moment we were unchained in the first location I

 3     mentioned, nobody has ever told us anything, where we're going, what

 4     we're going there for.  Everything was happening without any words

 5     spoken.  When I was being blindfolded, I was not told why this was being

 6     done.

 7        Q.   And how were you feeling at this point as you were driving along

 8     up the road?

 9        A.   I felt that the worst could happen, that we were being taken to a

10     location where we would be shot down which they were intending to film.

11     Patrick was also very upset, and I could sense that looking at him.

12             The road we were driven along was bumpy.  It was a road in the

13     mountains.  The vehicle was jumping up and down.  It was kind of a road

14     in the mountains, full of stones and an uneven surface.

15        Q.   When you said that you -- Patrick was also very upset, you could

16     sense that by looking at him, clearly, that was when you were back before

17     the blindfolds were on; is that right?

18        A.   That's right, that's correct.  I could see then that neither him

19     nor me realised where we would be taken.  And when we were blindfolded,

20     our fears grew.

21        Q.   When the blindfolds were taken off, did you know where you were?

22     What did you see?

23        A.   I didn't know where I was.  I knew that I was at the top of some

24     mountain.  There were remains of snow there.  I saw a big antenna,

25     spherical in shape.  And I was very thirsty.  I asked to get some water,

Page 10846

 1     which I got.  When I drank that water or when I was drinking that water,

 2     a civilian journalist approached me and told me not to worry, that

 3     nothing wrong was going to happen to us here, that we're going to be

 4     filmed only.  This was the turning point -- breakthrough point in this

 5     course of our anxiety, and I believed him.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, if I could just halt you there.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, may I tender the last video

 8     footage, please.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2154, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   Now, you mentioned that they said that -- the journalist said

14     that he was going to film you.  Did anything happen between then, that

15     point, and when you were actually filmed?

16        A.   Yes.  I knew all of this, and I had my bag with me that I took

17     from my POB, and therefore I decided to change into my field uniform, one

18     that you can expect on such trips.  I put it on the blue uniform.

19     Therefore, in the pictures, in the footage, you can see that I'm wearing

20     my field uniform.

21        Q.   Once you'd changed into your uniform, where were you taken?

22        A.   When I changed, I was taken to the antennas and situated on some

23     kind of concrete base.  They chained me to something.  Behind my back, I

24     had a soldier with a gun.  I did not consent to any interview.  The

25     journalist asked me to say briefly -- to tell him briefly what had

Page 10847

 1     happened, and this is what I did.  I believed that this was the moment

 2     when I could tell the headquarters how we were and what our situation

 3     was.  From the very moment we were detained, we didn't have any contact

 4     with our sector.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could ask you to watch a short video-clip.

 6     It's 65 ter 40202B.  And if we can play from .37:23 to .38:14, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was just thinking.  With the

 9     translation, if we could actually play it again, and if the interpreters

10     could translate into English.  And for the benefit of --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give it a try?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's do that.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, did you recognise what was in that video-clip?

16        A.   Yes.  This is the very first moment.  You can see my hand being

17     down.  I'm handcuffed or chained to something, to some kind of maybe rod,

18     pole, some kind of steel pipe maybe.  While I was sitting there chained,

19     I was watching what was happening downhill, and I saw Patrick standing

20     close to a car.  And I saw two colleagues, UNMOs, 50 metres from me,

21     maybe, on my left-hand side, and they were sitting on the grass with

22     their backs turned to each other.  They were handcuffed, their hands were

23     handcuffed.  One of them was white-skinned and one -- and the other one

24     was dark-skinned.

25        Q.   Do you recall the names of either of those two UNMOs?

Page 10848

 1        A.   I don't recall.  I don't recall the name of the African guy, but

 2     one of the white-skinned people was -- I think he was Czech.  I can't

 3     recall now.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  I think he was from Czechoslovakia, says the

 5     witness.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  If we could play the video again, and

 7     with the benefit of the translation into English of what's being said.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "UNPROFOR members have also been

10     positioned to other strategically important facilities that might be

11     targets of NATO air-strikes."

12             "Of course."

13             "Why?"

14             "I don't know what you're doing for me."

15             "Are you afraid of NATO air-strikes?"

16             "I am afraid, because I don't know when they might come."

17             "The international community and its decisions have brought the

18     situation upon these people.  Whether they are going to survive depends

19     on NATO actions."

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that video-clip.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2155, Your Honours.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, how long did you stay handcuffed to this radio

25     antenna -- radar antenna?  Sorry.

Page 10849

 1        A.   Just for the filming, around 15 minutes.

 2        Q.   And, again, what did you understand the purpose of being

 3     handcuffed to this installation?

 4        A.   I think it's easy to guess.  The Serbs wanted to show the world,

 5     to the NATO command, that any further air-strikes might result in a

 6     tragedy for us.  It was hinted that we were human shields in various

 7     strategic targets that they wished to protect.

 8        Q.   So after the 15 minutes or so that you were there, where were you

 9     then taken?

10        A.   In the same team, we went -- we went into the cars.  We drove

11     down.  We stopped outside a building that looked modern.  It fit well

12     within the -- in the landscape.  It looked like some remnant maybe from

13     the Olympics.  And there, we were invited to a meal.  We were given some

14     food.

15        Q.   Where were you -- where did you spend the night?

16        A.   In that place that I mentioned just a minute ago -- in that

17     place, we were just an hour, maybe 90 minutes, and then we returned to

18     Pale, to the base, where there was a barracks building, two-floor

19     building, and that was our accommodation for the night.  Everything ended

20     by 8.00 p.m.  I met all my colleagues that I saw, and I met colleagues

21     that I have not seen earlier.  There were 11 of us in the barracks at

22     that moment.

23        Q.   Were you spoken to by a military officer that evening about what

24     was going to happen to you?

25        A.   Approximately at 9.00 p.m., after one hour upon arrival, after we

Page 10850

 1     talked amongst each other, there was an officer coming.  He was a major.

 2     He looked quite serious.  He was 50 or 55 years old.  He made a good

 3     impression upon us.  He was very calm and very to the point.  He said

 4     that there are no threats at night, but this is all that he may tell us.

 5     He cannot tell us what's going to happen on the next day.  He said that

 6     he may assure us that we shall have a quiet sleep at night.  And we liked

 7     that, because we were really looking and we missed even tough but very

 8     concrete and substantial information on what's going to happen.  We had a

 9     lot of questions to this officer, but he had one answer for us, I do not

10     know what may happen later.  That's all.

11        Q.   Did he mention anything in relation to what would happen to you

12     if the air-strikes continued?

13        A.   Yes, he did.  He said that our status is not going to change as

14     long as the parties fail to reach an agreement.  In other words, there

15     must be a clear declaration from the NATO command that they will stop

16     air-strikes.

17        Q.   Or what would happen to you?

18        A.   Tactics were very transparent to us.  Serbs wanted to have us the

19     closest to the sites that were important to them.  They wanted to have

20     the capability to chain us to the strategic targets at the very short

21     time, and that's what happened.

22             On the next day, we woke up.  We were able to wash.  We had

23     breakfast, and we were carried to the place -- to the new place that we

24     have never seen before.  And to reach that place, we were driving along

25     the narrow asphalt road.  At some point, there was a barrier, and there

Page 10851

 1     was like a barrack on the side, and they had the room where they could

 2     easily accommodate 11 of us.  In that room, they detained us.

 3             Our understanding was that as soon as they get a signal from the

 4     Serb command headquarters, from that place they would take us to unknown

 5     locations.  It never happened, though.

 6        Q.   You said that was your understanding, but was anything actually

 7     said to you in that respect in those terms?

 8        A.   No.  At this new place, no one informed us what is the purpose of

 9     our -- of us staying there.  That was our guessing, based on what we

10     heard from the officer the night before.

11        Q.   And how long were you kept in this building for?

12        A.   Well, here I have a memory gap, but it seems to me that we

13     probably spent one night in that building because I remember that upon

14     the return -- I do not remember spending the second night in the same

15     barrack building where we spent the first night, so most likely we stayed

16     overnight in that place and the day after we were transferred to another

17     building, where we spent the rest of the time until we were released.

18        Q.   And that other -- sorry.  If I can interrupt you.  That other

19     building that you were subsequently moved to, where you stayed until you

20     were released, was that back at the military barracks, where you were

21     taken originally, in Pale?

22        A.   Yes, that was the building in the same base where the other

23     barracks was located, but this building was closer to the gate and it was

24     of the smaller size.  But the building that I'm talking about right now

25     was not within the parameter of the base, it was beyond the base, and

Page 10852

 1     most likely we spent the whole day and night over there.  We were there

 2     overnight, because we had our personal belongings with us, so we were

 3     able to spend the night there.  We didn't have a bed or anything.

 4     I think that we were just laying down on the floor.

 5        Q.   Now, during the day, and this is the 27th of May, 1995, we're

 6     talking about now, you mentioned earlier that you probably spent one

 7     night in that building, because when you returned -- where -- and then

 8     you paused.  Where were you taken on the 27th of May, 1995?

 9        A.   27th of May, as I said earlier, well, the whole day we spent in

10     that building.  But what happened there?  To me, an important development

11     was that it was the second time when the same Serbs came with a car.  And

12     they took me and the Brazilian, Harley, and we were driven back to the

13     same place where I was filmed next to the radar antenna.

14        Q.   Can you just describe briefly for the Trial Chamber what happened

15     when you were taken with Harley to the radar station?

16        A.   When we were taken there, I didn't know where we were going.  But

17     since I was familiar of the road when you're leaving Pale in the

18     direction of Sarajevo, that was the road when we were stopped at the

19     Serbian check-point, and again we were being blindfolded, I guessed we

20     were going in the same direction.  I was then much more calm.  I tried to

21     be calm for the sake of Harley, to calm him down, to show to him that he

22     should not be nervous.  I was educating to him that we were probably

23     being taken to the place to be filmed again.  And that's what -- that was

24     the case.  We came to the same place, and I was again chained to the

25     antenna.  Harley was chained to some other part on that peak, and we were

Page 10853

 1     both filmed.

 2             I used this opportunity and I answered the question put by the

 3     journalist about my feelings.  Knowing that I would be watched by my

 4     family, I simply said that I was okay, I had food, I had shelter for the

 5     night.  That was my intention, so that in this way I could pass on some

 6     information for them to calm down.  I knew my wife -- I knew that she

 7     trusted my words, what I'm saying.  And although I knew that my words

 8     were very short, there was some meaning, substance, content in them.

 9     That's it.

10             And another thing.  After we've been filmed - that took about

11     15 to -- 10 to 15 minutes, or maybe 20 minutes - we were brought back by

12     the same road to join our colleagues -- where we joined our colleagues.

13        Q.   I'll pause you there.  I'd like you to watch a short video-clip

14     now.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's 65 ter 40202D.  And if we could play it

16     from 40:35 to 43:21, please.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we -- sorry, if we just could pause

19     there.  If I could -- if the interpreters could interpret what's being

20     said into English, please.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Members of United Nations forces

23     are still at the locations where they were put by the Serbian army.  They

24     accompanied by guards and they have no problems, as they will confirm

25     themselves.  At the same time, NATO aeroplanes are still circling Serbian

Page 10854

 1     skies, threatening to unload their deadly cargo.  Of course, it remains

 2     to be seen whether they will actually do so.  It is now upon the

 3     international community to show everything it can do, because so far the

 4     only thing they showed is that they can bomb the innocent Serbian

 5     population."

 6             The interpreter can no longer follow because the text has been

 7     scrolled up.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could continue -- sorry.

 9             If you could -- we're pausing at 41:18.

10        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, you recognise the person that's in that shot?

11        A.   That's the Brazilian UNMO whom we called "Harley," just used that

12     name to call him on a regular basis.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we can continue playing the tape.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we play back from 41:15, for example, so

15     that the interpreters could follow.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... threatening to unload their

19     deadly cargo.  Of course, it remains to be seen whether they will

20     actually do so.  It is now upon the international community to show

21     everything it can do, because so far the only thing they showed is that

22     they could bomb the innocent Serbian population and --"

23             Again, the text is scrolled up too fast.

24             Interpreter's note:  We need to have the transcript in writing in

25     order to be able to follow properly.

Page 10855

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We could have paused it when the interpreters

 2     stopped interpreting, and then we can continue.

 3             I will ask the interpreters when to start again.  So let's move

 4     on.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... whether it will actually be

 7     done remains to be seen.  It is now upon the international community to

 8     show everything it can do, because so far the only thing they showed is

 9     that they can bomb the innocent Serbian population.  And now let us see

10     if they will bomb members of units they are sending to our land as well."

11             "Captain Harley --"

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can continue now.  We have interpreted it

13     all.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Captain Harley, are you still

16     afraid today?"

17             "Of course, I fear for all of us."

18             "What are you afraid of?"

19             "I'm anxious.  We are in a bad position.  This situation we're in

20     is bad, and we are very sorry because of that."

21             "Do you have a message for your people, for NATO pilots?"

22             "I try to trust the good sense of politicians and people that are

23     in charge and who decide about our future.  Let them stop this.  This is

24     a stupid war."

25             "Do you have any problems with Serbian soldiers?"

Page 10856

 1             "No.  Serbian soldiers and their commanders behave very well, as

 2     true professionals."

 3             "I didn't have any problems --"

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We've paused at 42:46, and we've just seen the

 5     end of Harley's interview.

 6        Q.   What do you see on the screen now, Mr. Kalbarczyk?

 7        A.   I can see myself in my gala uniform, in my dress uniform.  And,

 8     what I said before, my short statement given to the journalist.  I'm

 9     giving my opinion about the behaviour of the Serbian Army towards us, and

10     I think it was a positive behaviour towards us, and I'm passing on

11     information for my family to calm down, not to worry.

12        Q.   Okay.  We will listen to what you have to say.  If we can

13     continue -- I'm sorry.  If we can continue, we will actually hear what

14     you had to say to the reporter.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I want to say to my family that

17     they shouldn't worry, that everything is okay."

18             "Did you have enough food and drink?"

19             "Yes, food and drink, and water to wash myself."

20             "These are the words of United Nations members who are now

21     located at the facilities of the Serbian Army.  Their future depends on

22     the future actions of NATO and the international community."

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

24             Your Honour, that clip that we just watched, 65 ter 40202D, is,

25     in fact, Exhibit P2143.  We watched that on Wednesday.

Page 10857

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  So when we admitted Exhibit P2143, we

 2     did not admit the audio part, so we'll replace it with this.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, what do you see in the -- sorry.  If we can just

 7     stop that there.  We've finished that.

 8             Where were you and Harley then taken?

 9        A.   You mean after we've been filmed?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   We were driven down, back to the building in which we were on the

12     first day.  We were treated to a lunch.  There was actually a wedding

13     reception at that place of some Serbian family, and it turned out that

14     one of the Serbian soldiers was the organiser of that wedding reception.

15     He was an elderly man.  He recognised me because we had met on one of the

16     patrols when I visited his post.

17        Q.   Did you eventually go back to the barracks?  You were saying --

18     earlier, you were saying that you were unsure as to whether you went back

19     to the other building which was outside the military barracks compound or

20     you went, in fact, back to the military barracks.

21        A.   Nobody told us where we would be taken back, but intuitively I

22     assumed that we would be rejoined with our colleagues.  And we did come

23     back to the place where our colleagues were from which we had been taken.

24     It was not a return to the military base, but to that barracks where in

25     the morning we were taken on the 28th.

Page 10858

 1        Q.   And then I think you said earlier in your testimony that you then

 2     moved back to a building -- a smaller building near the entrance to the

 3     military barracks.  Is that right?

 4        A.   It's not really correct, because that happened on the 29th.  And

 5     I remember that this was connected with the fact that there were too many

 6     of us, given the number of beds in that new building.  In that new

 7     building, there were only eight beds, so to say, so there was enough room

 8     for eight persons.  So it was suggested that the two Russian UNMOs would

 9     be transferred, and I was also asked whether I wanted to be transferred.

10     And then I think it was Patrick who said to me that they were to be

11     transferred to the Ukrainian Battalion.  Whether this was true or not, I

12     cannot confirm.  I did not agree to be transferred.  I said that I wanted

13     to stay with my team, and that was the case.  The Russians left, and one

14     of us left as well.  I don't remember who that was.  So there were eight

15     of us who stayed behind.

16             On the 29th, we were transferred to a new place, a new location

17     in the base at which we spent our first night after the 26th.

18        Q.   And this was in the small building near the entrance to the

19     barracks; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, it was a small building maybe 50 metres from the main gate.

21     I think -- from a soldier's point of view, I think it might have been a

22     building for those guarding the gate.  There were two places to sleep in,

23     there was a bathroom, shower, and there was a larger room, like a

24     living-room, with a TV set.

25        Q.   Were you able to see out of the building?

Page 10859

 1        A.   Yes.  Out of our windows, we could see some of the base.  You

 2     could see the traffic through the entry gate, vehicles coming in, out.

 3     We could saw people -- we could see people coming in and out.  We could

 4     see that from our windows.  For one week, we were restricted, we were

 5     banned from leaving the building.

 6             What did I see?  I saw a lot of movement of military vehicles.

 7     Especially towards the evening, I could see trucks leaving with soldiers,

 8     and I assumed that they were going to do night duty.  And then in the

 9     morning, they came back.  I saw vehicles coming with some command

10     officers or from command posts.  It was also said -- rumoured that

11     Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic and other commanders came there, but,

12     personally, I didn't see Dr. Karadzic there in the base.

13        Q.   Did you see General Mladic in the base?

14        A.   Yes, just one time.  I think after two, three days, when we were

15     accommodated in the new building, a few people in civilian clothes came

16     to us.  They were wearing civilian clothes, and they checked on us, they

17     checked the accommodation.

18             Later, when we were able to watch TV, when we were allowed to

19     watch TV, I actually recognised that one of the civilians had been

20     General Mladic.  When we were able to watch TV, I could see him in his

21     uniform, and I could actually see that this was the very same person I

22     had seen before.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have Exhibit P00653, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, do you see the photograph that's on the screen?

25     Do you recognise anyone in that photograph?

Page 10860

 1        A.   Yes.  In the foreground, I recognise General Mladic.

 2        Q.   And that's the person -- is that the person that you say you saw

 3     in civilian clothes in the military barracks?

 4        A.   The first time when I saw him in our barracks, he was wearing

 5     civilian clothes.  And while I actually make this association, this link,

 6     I saw him in uniform on TV, and I'm not sure whether, on TV, he was

 7     wearing the very -- this very same uniform, but I remember his face,

 8     characteristic features, and I remembered.

 9        Q.   How long did Mladic stay in the barracks on the -- at the time

10     that you saw him during your stay there?

11        A.   His visit lasted around 30 minutes.  During that visit, my

12     colleagues, Evans, a Ghanian UNMO, and Olek from Lima 7, a Czech UNMO,

13     were invited to talk.  I didn't take part in this conversation.  Right

14     after we left the barracks, I learned that they had been asked whether

15     they were able, physically, to guide NATO planes.

16        Q.   And who was asking them these questions?

17        A.   I don't know.  As I said, I didn't take part in this

18     conversation.  I was also told that -- they told me that they had been

19     asked about myself, whether I -- whether they had any knowledge about my

20     skills or abilities when it comes to guiding planes.

21        Q.   When you're talking about "they," do you mean Evans and Olek?

22        A.   Yes, that's who I mean, Evans and Olek.  This was when I -- when

23     the civilian-clad people went away.  They came back, and obviously we

24     talked to one another.  We were also being filmed by a cameraman.  We

25     were unshaved, we had beards, because we were -- we had been forbidden to

Page 10861

 1     shave.  There was no interview, we had not been interviewed, and we also

 2     noticed at that time that Mr. Karadzic was not filmed.

 3        Q.   Mr. Karadzic or General Mladic?

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness corrects himself.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Mladic, sorry.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   Did any of the UNMOs require any medical assistance?  And if so,

 8     were you able to see a doctor?

 9        A.   The Spaniard, Pepe, was in the worst condition out of all of us.

10     It was fortunate enough that two weeks after the 26th -- sorry, I have to

11     correct myself.  That was earlier.  I think it was on the 3rd or

12     4th of June the representatives of the Red Cross came to us, two women,

13     as far as I can remember, and we could ask for some essentials.  For

14     example, we lacked some basics like tooth-brushes, toothpaste, underwear.

15     And we also said that we would like a doctor to see us.  And that was

16     when I also wrote a letter to my family, to my wife.  And I asked the

17     women that came to see us to send the letter to Poland, and they did send

18     it.  The letter reached Poland.

19             Two days after the Red Cross women left, a doctor came to our

20     building.  We were examined.  He talked to us, and he said -- he stated

21     that my Spanish colleague is in a bad condition, is in bad health.  He

22     had some heart problems.  The doctor wrote a decision that this colleague

23     should be released.  That was, indeed, the case.  Pepe was the first UNMO

24     who was released.

25        Q.   When were you told that you would be released?

Page 10862

 1        A.   The time until I was informed about the release was taking long.

 2     Meanwhile, other colleagues were released.  I don't remember the actual

 3     sequence, but I was informed on the 13th of June, in the morning.  I was

 4     informed by Captain Vojvodic.  He was our liaison officer.  I packed my

 5     things, and I was transferred to Pale.  It was a police station in Pale.

 6     And on the second time, I actually met the same officer that detained us

 7     on Day 1.  At that place, we were waiting for the buses to arrive, and

 8     the buses took us to Novi Sad.

 9        Q.   If I could just pause you there.  You said from the police

10     station?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Were you actually taken somewhere else before you were put on the

13     buses?

14        A.   Next to the police station, there was a container.  And once they

15     checked my personal details, that was where they locked me.  Actually,

16     there were many other people there who were transferred there earlier

17     than myself.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  If we can just stop there for the moment.

19             Your Honour, it's time for the break.

20             I have a couple of documents and a couple of short video-clips

21     that I wish to show the witness after the break, and then --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             We'll have a break, then.  We'll break for half an hour and

24     resume at three minutes past 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

Page 10863

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could introduce

 3     Chelsea Sayles, who is a lawyer from the United States working with us

 4     today.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

 6             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, before the break you said that you were taken

 9     from the police station and then locked into a container.  What happened

10     after you came out of the container?  Or, first of all, how long were you

11     kept in the container?

12        A.   Well, yes, there was just one container, and we spent three to

13     four hours in that place.  It was very stuffy there.  There was no

14     window, and there were quite many people inside.

15             After four hours, we were allowed to leave the container.  They

16     asked us to stand in double file, and at that point I noticed that we

17     were surrounded by the soldiers wearing red berets, and they were

18     supposed to escort us to Novi Sad.  They were reading the list of names,

19     and we followed the list and we were getting on the bus.  When they

20     finished reading, the convoy was formed and we took off.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  If I could ask for 65 ter 11722 to be

22     brought up on the screen.  This is a document -- an order dated the

23     13th of June, 1995, from Mr. Karadzic regarding the captured UN soldiers.

24        Q.   And it states there:

25             "At 11.00 a.m. on the 13th of June, 1995, release all captured

Page 10864

 1     UN soldiers and inform them that they are free to go or continue

 2     performing their duties from before the incident which led to their

 3     capture."

 4             "2.  Hand over to Mr. Jovica Stanisic all the captured

 5     UNPROFOR soldiers and military observers, including all French, all

 6     British, two Polish and two other soldiers, except 15 military observers

 7     who will remain in our custody at Pale until Sunday, 13th of June, 1995.

 8     Return the personal effects and weapons to all released UNPROFOR soldiers

 9     and military observers."

10             First of all, is this order consistent with your experiences?

11     Were two Polish officers released on that day?

12        A.   Yes.  In the container, I met my colleague, a Pole,

13     Major Wojtasiak, and there was another person who joined us, Zlatko.  As

14     far as other UNMOs are concerned, other UNMOs who were with me at the

15     base, I had no knowledge what is going to happen to them.

16        Q.   The Zlatko you referred to was Kozusnik from the Czech Republic;

17     is that right?

18        A.   That's correct, Zlatko Kozusnik from the Czech Republic.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P2156.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could ask you to now watch a short

23     video-clip.  It's 65 ter 40202C, and if we can play it from 2:11.13 to

24     2.13:08.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 10865

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could pause there at 2.11.31.

 2        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that there were people with red berets

 3     who were to escort you to Serbia, to Novi Sad.  Do you see, on the screen

 4     at the moment, a soldier with a red beret in front of the bus?

 5        A.   Yes, I can see him.

 6        Q.   Is this what you were referring to when you said "a soldier with

 7     a red beret"?

 8        A.   I can see only one.  There were many more, about 20.  So we were

 9     about 20 on the bus, so there were many more soldiers.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could continue with the video, please.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could pause there, please, at 2:11:42.

13        Q.   Do you recognise what's shown in that shot?

14        A.   Yes, it's me on the bus.  So that means my name must have been

15     called out, because I'm on the bus.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can continue, please.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... 18 days.  We were treated

19     correctly throughout the entire time.  And now we're in the hands of the

20     federal security service.  No complaints."

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could stop the video there.  Thank you.

22        Q.   Who was the last person?  Did you recognise not this person on

23     the screen right now, but the one just before in the glasses?  Did you

24     recognise him?

25        A.   Yes, because later I served together with him on the team in

Page 10866

 1     Dubrovnik.  He's a Swedish UNMO, Gunnar, Gunnar.  That's the name,

 2     Westlund, Gunnar Westlund.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May I tender that video-clip, Your Honour?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2157, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, I hope that the

 7     Trial Chamber has been provided with the translation.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The translation was actually read by the

 9     interpreters, what was said by Mr. Westlund on that clip, Mr. Karadzic.

10             If we could --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I remember having heard the sound,

12     but I take it -- it's not noted in the transcript, but I don't think we

13     heard many.  Let's proceed.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And the transcript is also in e-court,

15     Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could watch another short video-clip.

18     This is 65 ter 40387B.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We have here with us 26 members of

21     the French-British battalion and 2 members of the Polish battalion, a

22     Swede, a Russian, a Czech, and a Norwegian.

23             "Sixteen French, six English, two Polish --"

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "They will be handed over, just like

25     the last time, to their headquarters in Belgrade.  There are 15 men

Page 10867

 1     remaining, and we hope that during the coming two, three days, we will

 2     take them over.  As has already been said, due to technical reasons, we

 3     have not been able to take them over yet.  We are happy that the entire

 4     mission has been completed successfully.  We have already stated that in

 5     terms of political and security reasons, it was a very complex mission.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Did you recognise the person that was being interviewed in that

 8     video?

 9        A.   No, I don't recall that man and I don't recall this statement,

10     because when we were being taken, all that was done was this list was

11     read out.  And based on that, we were boarding the bus.  And I don't

12     recall these photographs I see now and these people in the photographs.

13        Q.   But, again, is what he said consistent with what happened that

14     day, that there were two Poles in the list of people that were being

15     released that day?

16        A.   As far as I understood, the interpretation understood, that there

17     were two Polish members of a battalion.  I was not a member of a

18     Polish battalion.  I was not a member of a mission.  I was just a member

19     of the UNMOs, so I don't understand this statement made in the footage.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  Your Honour, if --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of us on the bus were

22     observers, not members of battalions.  Perhaps those who were mentioned

23     here as members of the French Battalion were members of the

24     French Battalion, but I was not a member of any battalion.  I was only an

25     UNMO.

Page 10868

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kalbarczyk.

 2             That will be Exhibit P2158.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, when you got to Novi Sad, where were you taken,

 5     where were you kept there?

 6        A.   In Novi Sad, we were taken to a holiday resort.  It looked like

 7     it was a holiday resort, and each one of us got his own room with a

 8     bathroom.  We were treated to supper.  We arrived there in the evening,

 9     and that was the end of the day.  So when the bus came to Novi Sad, we

10     were greeted -- actually, I was greeted by the Polish consul from

11     Belgrade and a few people from Poland.  They congratulated me on being

12     there.  And, basically, in Novi Sad, in this holiday resort which,

13     ironically, was called "Sloboda," which is "Freedom," we felt released,

14     although we still were under the custody of the Serbian Army.  We didn't

15     have complete freedom, we couldn't leave the perimeter of the holiday

16     resort.  That's it, that's all.

17        Q.   I just want to now show you a few documents and ask you whether

18     certain aspects of these documents are consistent with your experiences.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 18931, please.  This is a

20     document dated the 14th of June.  It's a UN daily report to the

21     Security Council from Akashi to Annan on the release of hostages and

22     inability of UNHCR convoys for the enclaves to obtain clearance.

23        Q.   It states there that:

24             "Twenty-six hostages (detained personnel) have been released and

25     are currently in Novi Sad, waiting to be handed over to the Serbian

Page 10869

 1     authorities."

 2             It also says in the first paragraph that Dr. Karadzic announced

 3     that 15 hostages that would be released later due to technical reasons.

 4             Is this consistent with your experience, that some of your

 5     UNMO colleagues were not released and were back at the military barracks

 6     in Pale?

 7        A.   Yes.  As I said, I was the first one on the 13th, in the morning

 8     at 10.00, who left this barrack.  After about an hour, Kozusnik joined,

 9     and none other of my team joined us.  So on that day, only two persons

10     were released, me and Kozusnik.  And later, I learnt, after I was

11     released, that the others -- the other on our team were still detained by

12     Serbs, but the circumstances did not allow me to follow the events and I

13     don't know whether they were in that very same place or whether they were

14     transferred to some other place, because after my release, I had a number

15     of other different things to attend to and I didn't follow their fate.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I tender that document?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's admitted as Exhibit P2159.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, on the 14th of June, 1995, where did you go from

20     Novi Sad?  Just very briefly, please.

21        A.   From Novi Sad, in the morning we were transported to the airport

22     in Belgrade, where a plane was awaiting for us.  The plane took us to

23     Zagreb.  And after I landed in Zagreb, we were free.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I would now like 65 ter 21111 to be brought up.

25             Your Honour, I seek leave to use this document and the next

Page 10870

 1     document.  I have discussed -- both documents have been discussed with

 2     Mr. Robinson, who has no objection to them being used.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  That's granted.

 4             Please move on, Ms. Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   This document, 21111, is dated the 14th of June, 1995.  It's an

 7     UNPROFOR code cable, hostages released on the 13th of June, 1995.  In

 8     fact, it's from the special representative of the force commander in

 9     Belgrade.

10             If we could go to -- the first paragraph says:

11             "Please find enclosed the list of 26 released UN personnel coming

12     from seven countries, including of eight UNMOs."

13             Number 2:

14             "They will probably formally be handed over at 12.00 noon on the

15     14th of June, 1995."

16             If we could go to the third page, please.

17             You looked at this document yesterday in preparation for your

18     testimony.  Do you see your name in the attached list?

19        A.   Yes, in item 25.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That will be the next Prosecution exhibit.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2160, Your Honours.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 21112.  This is another

24     document dated the 14th of June, again from the special representative of

25     the force commander in Belgrade, hand-over of detained UNPF personnel on

Page 10871

 1     the 14th of June, 1995.  It says, in paragraph 1, that the UN personnel

 2     have been treated well and that they are, of course, concerned about

 3     their remaining friends.

 4             If we could turn to the next page of the document, and

 5     paragraph 3 says:

 6             "I handed over our information about 15 hostages that are still

 7     not released as Annex B."

 8             And the next paragraph, that they will be released before the end

 9     of the week.

10             And if we can go to the next page, and this lists the

11     15 persons -- UN personnel.

12        Q.   And we see there that there's nine UNMOs last seen in Pale on the

13     13th of June, 1995, by the UNMOs released on the 13th of June, 1995.

14     Location believed to be at the BSA barracks located two kilometres

15     south-east of Pale on the right-hand side of the road to Foca.  And then

16     there lists Captain Rechner, Captain Zidlik, Soldier Evans,

17     Major Gelissen, Captain Alves, Captain Al Lawwama, Captain Laine,

18     Commander Schan deler, and Lieutenant-Colonel Niagi.

19             Do you -- when you said a moment ago that there was certain

20     number of your colleagues left back at the barracks when you left Pale,

21     were these the people you were referring to?

22        A.   I can see here the names of Rechner, that's Patrick; Zidlik,

23     that's Olek; Evans.  I don't know whether Captain Alves is Harley or not,

24     that Brazilian guy.  I don't know that.  I would have to see his first

25     name.  All I can see is "Alves."  I don't know the Brazilian by that

Page 10872

 1     name.  I had no opportunity to learn his surname.  So definitely the

 2     three persons at the top I mentioned, but when it comes to the others,

 3     the other names, I don't recognise them.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2161, Your Honours.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And the last document is a map, 65 ter 23077.

 8        Q.   The map that will appear on the screen is a map that was prepared

 9     by the Office of the Prosecutor using 65 ter 19082 as the base map, and

10     overlaid onto this map are the different locations in Bosnia where you

11     were held during your period of detention from the 26th of May to the

12     13th of June, 1995.  You had an opportunity to review this map in

13     preparation of your testimony, and you made an addition to be included on

14     the map at the location of Jahorinski Potok, where you were taken on the

15     26th of May, 1995.

16             Looking at the map in front of you, does that accurately reflect

17     your movements during the period that you were held by the Bosnian Serb

18     forces?

19        A.   Yes, indeed.  Graphically, this could be shown on the map this

20     way, how I moved once or a couple of times, including the return to

21     Novi Sad.

22        Q.   And that's shown by the lines with the arrows?  Your Honour -- is

23     that right?

24        A.   Yes.  I do -- I understand the arrows, yeah, go forth and back,

25     and, indeed, this is the -- this illustrates and reflects what I said

Page 10873

 1     here before the Court.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2162, Your Honours.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Finally, Mr. Kalbarczyk, can you tell the Court how -- how this

 7     ordeal during the 26th of May to the 1st of June, how that had an impact

 8     on you?

 9        A.   It is hard, really, to describe it in words.  I wouldn't wish

10     such experience on anyone, the experience that I witnessed.  That was my

11     experience or my colleagues' -- experiences of my colleagues.

12             Well, impact on my life?  What's positive is that my life has

13     changed.  I started to value it more, and in everything I did after I

14     left the military, I became more sensitive.  I am a person more sensitive

15     to human suffering.  That's all, thank you.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no further questions, and

17     there are no associated exhibits to tender.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Yes, thank you, Colonel Kalbarczyk.  You will be cross-examined

20     by Mr. Karadzic.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Good morning to everybody.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kalbarczyk.

Page 10874

 1        A.   Hello.

 2        Q.   I would just briefly like to go over your statement.  Let's

 3     remind ourselves how you saw those things in November 1995, when you

 4     first provided your statement.

 5             On page 2 -- or, rather, page 1 of your statement, you say that

 6     five days prior to the 26th, you had received certain --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             Do we have a photocopy of his statement?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I fully expected that the

10     Prosecution has provided that to the witness.  It must be in e-court.  I

11     don't know under what number.

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The 65 ter number is 90208, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your kindness, Ms. Sutherland.

15             But it's for you to put it to that witness if you are minded to

16     ask questions in relation to his statement.  Let's bring it up on the

17     e-court.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 90208, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, we are told it hasn't been yet

20     released.  So it is being done by Mr. Reid, I noted.  Thank you.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it may take a moment, so

22     Mr. Karadzic may wish to ask some further questions.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you have a print-out, so why don't you --

24     why don't we put it on the ELMO so that all of us can follow.  And in the

25     meantime, why don't you put your question to the witness.

Page 10875

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, indeed, here is a

 2     hard copy of the document.

 3             Can we first look at the first page and then the following page.

 4     Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Look at the third paragraph.  On the 22nd of November, 1995, you

 7     provided this statement; right?

 8        A.   That's right.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             And now can we go to the next page, please.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Please pay attention to the third paragraph, where it says:

13             [In English] "About five days before May the 26th ..."

14             [Interpretation] At that time, your movement was restricted, you

15     could not conduct patrols, and you had to stay in your accommodation.

16     You were allowed to go shopping in Pale; right?

17        A.   That's right, Pale.

18        Q.   Did you know already at that time that there would be NATO

19     air-strikes, that NATO air-strikes were going to take place?

20        A.   I didn't know, and our team leader didn't inform us about this.

21     We were only restricted for movement.  We were told that we can only go

22     out to equip ourselves with some essentials only in the morning and early

23     afternoon, and we couldn't go to all places.  We were restricted.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive any information as to why the change

25     had taken place?

Page 10876

 1        A.   No, we didn't.  Let me add here that in the statement it says

 2     that "about five days before the 26th of May."  Within these five days, I

 3     was allowed to go on leave of absence.  This was my first leave of

 4     absence.  And it is hard for me to say whether there were any additional

 5     details, any additional information that was given to the team regarding

 6     our restricted movement.  I returned from my leave on the 25th of May,

 7     i.e., one day before the events.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I wanted to let you know that the document has been

 9     released and we can see it through e-court.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, we have it in

11     e-court.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   So five days prior to the 26th of May, you were on furlough,

14     right, and you only heard that there had been restrictions on movement?

15        A.   Well, not exactly.  I was on leave a maximum for three,

16     four days, just to clarify.

17        Q.   Thank you.  During that time, were you aware of the Muslim

18     offensive which started on the 1st of May and then intensified after the

19     15th of May, and that Muslim offensive targeted Serbian positions around

20     Sarajevo?

21        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.  I was focused on the tasks performed

22     in my sector.

23             Please note that I had been in the sector for less than

24     three weeks.  I was still learning what the terrain was, what the area

25     was about.  I had only been there for three weeks.  I came to Zagreb on

Page 10877

 1     the 13th of April.  I received training there.  Then I was transported to

 2     Sarajevo, where I spent around three days and further trained, and only

 3     then was I directed to Pale.  So in Pale, I was probably on the

 4     20th of April; Pale, i.e., the place where I was UNMO.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask you to look at the middle of the

 6     last paragraph, where it says that:

 7             [In English] "... but the officer in charge told us that from now

 8     on, we were under the custody of the Vojska Republike Srpske (BSA).

 9     Nobody tried to mistreat us."

10             And so on and so on.

11             [Interpretation] Earlier on today, you mentioned the same thing,

12     and you told that you had been told that you were hostages.  That was on

13     page -- I can't see the page number.  Can you quote those words exactly?

14     Is it true that you were told that you were under the custody of the

15     Army of Republika Srpska?

16        A.   Well, these words were uttered with this meaning, with the

17     meaning that they were taking over -- they were taking us over from the

18     police officers.  And the officer -- the military officer said -- and I'm

19     not sure what he said exactly, I mean, how to say it.  He said we were

20     arrested by the military of the Serbian Republic, that they are taking us

21     over from the policemen.

22        Q.   Thank you.  However, he wasn't the one who used the word

23     "hostages"?

24        A.   No, the word "hostage" was not used at that time.  But in a

25     moment, we actually learned this.

Page 10878

 1        Q.   We'll come back to that.  Thank you.

 2             Can we go to the next page of the same document, please.

 3             How did you perceive the attitude of the military, the police,

 4     and the civil population towards you during those three weeks?  Did they

 5     show any hostile feelings towards you?  And when I say "you," I don't

 6     mean you, personally, but all of you, you and your colleagues.

 7        A.   As for civilians, I can only tell you about the incident in

 8     the -- in central Pale, when we were being transported for the first time

 9     to the place where they wanted to handcuff us and treat us as human

10     shields.  Most civilians back then were very hostile.  However, I'm not

11     saying that everyone was.  As for the army officers and the policemen, I

12     would say that most of them were very correct in their behaviour.  There

13     were just very few people who demonstrated their reluctance towards us.

14     That's it.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I may not have been very precise in my question.

16             Before the air-strikes, did you have any impression that there

17     were hostilities towards you?  How were you received by the military and

18     by the civilians before the air-strikes?  Did anybody display any hostile

19     feelings towards you?

20        A.   I think that it was similar to the situation after that.

21     Overall, I kept a positive attitude in my memory.  Both the military

22     personnel, police officers, and civilians showed positive attitude.  What

23     I should say, that they were correct in their behaviour, but they were

24     not friendly.

25             When I was on my leave, I talked to my wife, and I used exactly

Page 10879

 1     the same words.  I said that I feel well in Serbia, that there is no

 2     unfriendly attitude that I would feel there, the way they showed it on TV

 3     or the way they covered it in the press.  And it was true.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, I see the transcript mentions "Serbia."

 7     I don't know that the witness said that or there's a translation issue.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Can you confirm, Colonel Kalbarczyk?  Did you say

 9     that you felt well in Serbia, that there was no unfriendly attitude?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said "Serbia," I meant the

11     location where I was deployed, Pale area, and just that particular

12     location.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Well, let me assist you.  You probably meant "Republika Srpska."

16     Right?

17        A.   I'm not sure if that republic existed at that point in time.

18     There was a war going on.

19        Q.   And now could I draw your attention to the middle part of the

20     second paragraph, where it says:

21             [In English] "In my opinion, that stop in the main street of Pale

22     was very dangerous for us because there are many soldiers and civilians

23     around the car.  The soldiers left the car with the door open, and we

24     were threatened and insulted.  One civilian spit on me -- at me."

25             [Interpretation] When you were arrested, at one point you stopped

Page 10880

 1     in the center of Pale for some reason.  The air-strikes had already

 2     started.  You were recognised by some civilians and soldiers who were

 3     passing by.  Did they recognise your uniform and your blue helmet?

 4        A.   I'm not sure what they saw in us.  I was describing the reaction

 5     of people who were gathered there.  And today, I believe that it was a

 6     mistake made by our escorts, because that incident might have turned into

 7     a very unpleasant situation; hence, the example of spitting, when one of

 8     the civilians spat at me.  They were allowed to approach us very close,

 9     people that I never knew, strangers, and they could actually hit us with

10     their hands or they could harm us otherwise.  Our escorts, after a while

11     they realised that this situation is getting dangerous, and they closed

12     the door and we departed.

13             So that was my understanding of that incident at that time.

14        Q.   Thank you.  The point I was making, Colonel, was this:  They did

15     not know you, personally.  They never accused you of anything,

16     personally.  They just recognised your uniform and your helmet, and they

17     realised that you were a UN member, and that was why they were hostile

18     towards you; right?

19        A.   Well, perhaps your reasoning is like that, but then you need to

20     remember that we were walking around that town, we were shopping there.

21     If these were the same people, it would be hard for them not to recognise

22     us.  And earlier, we felt that they were showing correct behaviour

23     towards us.  So where that aggressive behaviour was coming from at the

24     moment when we found ourselves in such a predicament?

25        Q.   In the questionnaire that you filled out after you were released,

Page 10881

 1     on page 3 you say that you had been told by the Serbs that they thought

 2     that the United Nations and NATO were one-and-the-same thing; right?

 3        A.   Yes, many times we heard this objection raised against our UNMOs

 4     that us and NATO are -- is the same, but we are working together.  They

 5     did not accept our arguments where we were trying to separate ourselves

 6     very clearly from that thinking.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             And now can we look at the third page from here.  The next one,

 9     please, 64.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Look at the end of the second paragraph, where you say:

12             [In English] "In that new accommodation, the atmosphere was

13     better, and we had good relations with the BSA officers.  We had hot

14     water.  I think that we could not go outside because they were afraid of

15     possible provocations of BSA soldiers who were passing near our building.

16     After about a week, we were allowed to go outside.  I stayed there until

17     my release."

18             [Interpretation] Do you think that the Serbian officers were

19     afraid of the provocations coming from the soldiers who were passing by

20     and that's why they didn't allow you to go out?  When you say "they were

21     afraid," who did you have in mind?

22        A.   What I meant, those that were in charge.  We were under their

23     custody.  As an officer, I was quite aware of the situation that

24     sometimes when soldiers are coming from the night duties or night

25     patrols, they may be in a different mental state.  And when they were

Page 10882

 1     seeing us outside, they could show very different reactions.  That was my

 2     reasoning, and that's why I testified that.

 3             Over time, the situation changed, and approximately after

 4     one week we were able to go outside.  The situation became stable.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we go back to 6622, the previous page.  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   The penultimate sentence in the third passage reads:

 9             [In English] "When we stopped, the civilians told me not to

10     worry, that nobody wanted to harm me.  When he told me that, I felt

11     better, because I had thought they would shoot us."

12             [Interpretation] Earlier today, on page 20, you stated that you

13     had not been told that your release is conditional upon the end of

14     air-strikes, but rather some sort of the end of hostilities with NATO,

15     that it was conditional on finding a solution to stop hostilities with

16     NATO; is that correct?

17        A.   I took the words of the journalist.  I related them to the

18     situation I found myself in.  So what was the situation?  I was brought

19     to the high peak, to a place unknown to me, and I didn't know what would

20     happen.  So I related that sentence to the situation in which I and

21     Rechner found ourselves, Do not be afraid, nothing will happen to you.

22     So I related that to that very situation.  So in this very place, I won't

23     be shot down, definitely.  I couldn't think, well, ahead of time.  I was

24     only thinking I was happy with what I was experiencing at the given

25     moment and what I knew at the given moment.  That's how I recall that.

Page 10883

 1             We were blindfolded, and we were not informed where we were going

 2     and what we were going there for.  So until we reached that place and

 3     until that sentence was uttered, I didn't know what was the reason of me

 4     going there, and the entire road up the hill was under great stress.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On page 20, you stated that you were not told that

 6     the condition of your release was not the end of air-strikes, but the end

 7     of overall hostilities with NATO, or, in other words, finding a solution

 8     to that situation between the Republika Srpska and NATO; right?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, is it possible Mr. Karadzic can put

10     the exact words that the witness said to him so that he can see?

11             JUDGE KWON:  I couldn't find that phrase on page 20.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's what the witness said.  I'm

13     paraphrasing.  I'm still trying to find the page.  I have some technical

14     problems in accessing the right page.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   However, you stated earlier on, on that page, that you were not

17     told that the condition of your release was not the end of air-strikes,

18     but the end of hostilities, because solutions were being sought to end

19     this conflict or hostilities with NATO; right?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.

22             I agree with you, I can't find anywhere that -- the proposition

23     that Mr. Karadzic is putting to the witness.  And he says that he's

24     paraphrasing, but it's simply not there.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I take it he's trying to find that passage.

Page 10884

 1             But in the meantime, Colonel Kalbarczyk, can you answer the

 2     question?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, those who took care of us

 4     never spoke about our release.  So if I said -- if I quoted the words of

 5     that officer on the first day, on the 26th, at 9.00 p.m., who came to us

 6     and he said what our situation was, well, the situation depended on the

 7     circumstances following on, whether the sides would reach an agreement

 8     and the air-strikes would be stopped or not.  But that was in no relation

 9     to the release, but to the change of the character of our stay in that

10     base.  When we were in that base, we all the time were hostages and human

11     shields which they wanted to use in the case of any information that

12     air-strikes were resumed.  But nobody said anything about our release.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, what the witness said on page 20 is

14     this, whether it would help you, but I quote:

15             "He said that our status is not going to change as long as the

16     parties fail to reach an agreement."

17             Is that the passage you refer to?  You continued further:

18             "In other words, there must be a clear declaration from the NATO

19     command that they will stop air-strikes."

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Could we now have in e-court P2161, please.  It was admitted a

22     few moments ago.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, did you know that the United Nations also held

25     some Serbs in custody?

Page 10885

 1        A.   No, I didn't have any information of that kind.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will go back to this document

 3     later on.

 4             For now, could we see P2161, please.  Page 2 of this document,

 5     please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please take a look at paragraph 2:

 8             [In English] "The Serbian authorities expressed all the time

 9     their eagerness of having the four Bosnian Serbs taken hostages by UN

10     released.  I told them that the decision of that was dependent on the

11     Special Representative of the Secretary-General decision, but that he was

12     in Geneva ..."

13             And so on.

14             [Interpretation] So you did not know that the UN forces and the

15     Republika Srpska forces actually mutually took prisoners?

16        A.   When I was kind of prisoner of war, we were cut off from any

17     information of that kind.  Such documents never reached us.  That was

18     impossible.  This is a document that was issued on the 14th of June, so

19     after all these events I participated in.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again I think Mr. Karadzic is

21     misquoting that document.  It doesn't say there that the UN mutually --

22     mutually, the UN and the Republika Srpska forces actually mutually took

23     prisoners.  That's not what that document states.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.  We all can read that document.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 10886

 1             With all due respect, that was part of my question.  That was

 2     whether Mr. Kalbarczyk knew that there was taking of prisoners on the

 3     other side as well, and that, as of the 14th of July, they had not been

 4     released as yet.

 5             Could we now please go back to the previous document, the earlier

 6     document, please, and then page 0035-6623.

 7             Thank you.  Now we have it before us.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You confirmed for us today that there was a wedding ceremony of

10     some sort there.  Would you please look at the last paragraph:

11             [In English] "We left the radar station and stopped in another

12     Olympic building, where a wedding was being celebrated.  We were invited

13     to have a drink and eat.  Many people came to tell us not to worry.  The

14     father of the groom remembered me from my previous patrols and also

15     talked to me.  We stayed there for about one and a half hours."

16             [No interpretation]:

17             [In English] "I asked the journalist to call my wife and say that

18     I am okay.  Later, I found out that he called my wife and told her I was

19     okay ."

20             [Interpretation] Did you accept this invitation to join this

21     wedding ceremony or celebration?

22        A.   I did not accept an invitation.  That would look strange, given

23     the fact -- given our situation, our enormous stress, simply to allow

24     ourselves to be filmed, us rejoicing in a wedding ceremony.  But I do

25     confirm that those people were very friendly to us, and that was very

Page 10887

 1     helpful to us.  It helped us to detach ourselves from the difficult

 2     moments we lived through some time ago when going up the hill, not

 3     knowing what for.  I'm actually grateful to the journalist.  He kept his

 4     promise.  And my wife later told me that she did not really understand,

 5     but Serbian is actually a bit similar to Polish, so she guessed that what

 6     he was saying was, Don't worry, everything is okay, your husband is

 7     alive, he sends you greetings, and he's going to be back.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Can we have the next page, please.  Page 624, one before this.

10     Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Here, in the central paragraph that begins with the words

13     "Nothing happened during that whole period of time ...":

14             [In English] "On 2nd or 3rd, we were visited by General Mladic,

15     in civilian clothes, and other people in civilian clothes.  They wanted

16     to see how we were.  At that moment, I did not know it was Mladic, but

17     now that I saw him on TV, I know it was him."

18             [Interpretation] And so on and so forth.

19             So you go on to speak about questioning, and you say that your

20     two friends were questioned about the circumstances and whether the UNMOs

21     were actually capable of guiding NATO aircraft and finding the targets;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes, that's right, I can confirm this.  I did not witness this

24     conversation.  I'm only telling you what I heard from Evans and the

25     Czech UNMO, Olek, who participated in the conversation.  In the witness

Page 10888

 1     statement, the word is used "interrogation."  It wasn't really an

 2     interrogation.  I think it might have been just a conversation with the

 3     people who visited us.

 4             Now, from what I was told, I gathered that the civilians asked --

 5     were asking whether there was any possibility that, with the equipment we

 6     had, we could guide and show targets to NATO planes.  These were pilots,

 7     and that's why they were selected.  And also they told me -- my

 8     colleagues told me that they had been asked about myself.  It was because

 9     they knew that I came from the Polish Air Force.  However, they explained

10     that I was just a lecturer at a military air academy.  Therefore, they

11     decided not to talk to me.  This is what my colleagues told me.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But the leader of your team, Griffith Evans from

13     Ghana, was also an air force member -- rather, he was a pilot in his

14     army; correct?

15        A.   That's right.  Yes, I said that before.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was Zidlik, Oldrich, also a member of the Czech air

17     forces, in the Czech Army?

18        A.   I can confirm this on the basis of what they told me.  I do not

19     have any documents stating that they were pilots.  I did not have any

20     such documents, I did not see any such documents.  This is what I -- what

21     they told me and what other colleagues told me, that they were pilots in

22     their home countries.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if any of the other members of your

24     observation post in Pale, in other words, any other member of your team,

25     was a pilot or a member of the air force?

Page 10889

 1        A.   I do not have any such knowledge.  Only these two were mentioned.

 2     All others I assume were from other forces.

 3        Q.   Do you know that at Kasindol, too, and in other places there were

 4     pilots who actually served as military observers, so there were both

 5     pilots and members of the air forces of different countries?

 6        A.   This is the first I heard of Kasindol.  I have no idea what this

 7     is about.

 8        Q.   We will -- well, rather, let's deal with this page first, and

 9     then we will talk about this questioning about guidance of aircraft, and

10     what your colleagues had to say about it.  So we'll get back to that

11     later.

12             But for now, would you please take a look at the next paragraph,

13     where you say that Captain Vojvodic took his private car and drove you,

14     on one occasion, to where you were staying, to your accommodations.  And

15     I believe at one other place, you also mentioned that on two or three

16     occasions, you actually went to your earlier accommodations, the place

17     where you stayed.  Correct?

18        A.   What is exactly said is that we first went to where the Echo 1

19     team was located, accommodated.  We took the remaining personal effects,

20     and on the way back we popped into -- we went to 7 Lima location, where

21     Patrick was, where Olek was.  This is where we had satellite connections,

22     and Captain Vojvodic let us use the satellite telephone and make a phone

23     call.  This is the first time I could call my wife, and my colleagues,

24     too.  I don't remember how many there were; maybe two, maybe one.  So

25     where the satellite phone was wasn't my permanent accommodation.  It was

Page 10890

 1     a different team.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the next paragraph, you say that a few days later,

 3     you were visited by the ICRC and then also by a doctor.  And then you

 4     say:

 5             [In English] "I asked for some vitamins and I received them the

 6     next day.  Romero was in bad health condition, and because of the opinion

 7     of the doctor, he was the first to be released."

 8             [Interpretation] Correct?

 9        A.   Not exactly.  What I'm saying is that first we were visited by

10     the Red Cross, and we requested -- after they left, the Red Cross left,

11     one or two days after they left, came the doctor.  And the doctor

12     examined everyone, and his decision was that Pepe, the Spaniard, should

13     be in hospital, he's in bad condition, he should be taken away from us as

14     soon as possible.  I only asked for vitamins, and I got the vitamins on

15     the next day.  That's all.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I know those two doctors, and you can confirm, right,

17     that one of them was a university professor?

18        A.   That's the title he gave.  He was very polite.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Could we now please see or take a look together at this

21     conversation about the guidance of aircraft and what your colleague,

22     Evans, had to say about it.  For a moment, I would like to have his

23     statement pulled up in e-court.  That's 1D5360 [as interpreted].

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's Exhibit P00051.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I take it the 65 ter number is 1D3060.

Page 10891

 1     Yes, let's pull it up.

 2             So this is a statement we admitted pursuant to 92 bis.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we now see page 5 of this document, please.

 7             I'm not quite certain that this is page 5.  Can we see page 5 of

 8     the document, itself, perhaps a page before this one or maybe one after

 9     this one.  It's a typewritten text, a page of text.

10             Just a moment.  As of June 1st --

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think that can be found with the ERN at the

12     bottom of the page ending 082.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Page 9.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15        Q.   Please take a look at this paragraph beginning with:  "On

16     1st June 1995 ...":

17             [In English] "... we had a visit from the General Staff, and I

18     was called by a major, leader of the General Staff, for a private

19     interview."

20             [Interpretation] And now he goes on to explain that, basically,

21     they wanted the confirmation of how the NATO got their targets, and they

22     wanted to check whether the rumours that aircraft were guided by UNMOs

23     were correct, and so on and so forth.  And then he explains what he told

24     them.

25             Now, do you agree that you, too, did not recognise Mladic at the

Page 10892

 1     first blush, as it were, and that your colleague, too, did not

 2     recognise -- had not recognised Mladic, that it was a major that he

 3     mentioned there?

 4        A.   I don't know.  I am only telling you here what I felt.  Whether

 5     they recognised Mladic or not, it's hard for me to say.  I had not asked

 6     them about this.  But I just wanted to say that Evans said it accurately,

 7     that it was really even like a private conversation, a discussion, not

 8     necessarily an interrogation.  They asked about whether there were

 9     possibilities that we were, as observers, military observers, able to

10     guide planes and show targets.  This is what I know, this is what I'm

11     aware of.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's see what an officer of the Czech Army has

13     to say about this.  His name is Oldrich Zidlik.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D3061.  It may have

15     been admitted already, but I don't know the P number.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, it hasn't been admitted, Your Honour.  But I

17     would ask that the first page, the cover page, isn't shown because it has

18     the witness's -- may have the witness's contact details on it.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then we can skip to page 3

20     right away of that document, paragraph 6.  1D3061, page 3.

21             I don't think this is page 3.  Can we see the previous page,

22     please.

23             Just a moment, let me check this.  Then it must be an earlier

24     page.  So I meant page 3 with the cover page included.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's the next page.

Page 10893

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Let's see what he says in paragraph 6:

 3             [In English] "On the seventh day of our detention, two of us were

 4     interrogated by security officers from Lukavica barracks.  I was

 5     interrogated by an officer who introduced himself as a Major Bukova."

 6             I suppose it was Bukva.  I know the guy, Bukva.  This is not

 7     citing.  This is not quoting.  [Interpretation] This was just my remark.

 8     Bukva, that's the name:

 9             [In English] "They showed us lists with grids or targets.  He

10     said this was information taken from the UNMO computer.  I believe it was

11     a fake list.  He said that we were guiding NATO aircrafts to the targets.

12     He did not know anything about the subject, not even about basic things

13     of guiding of planes.  I was not threatened.  He did not refer to the

14     higher military commands."

15             [Interpretation] Can you agree that this colleague of yourself

16     never actually thought that it was Mladic?  He, too, didn't think of

17     Mladic?

18        A.   It is hard for me to refer to what I have just heard and to what

19     we're reading.  It was never discussed in such detail with me.  I am

20     surprised by what I read here and hear here, but it is as it is.  What I

21     knew only was that the conversation took place.  We didn't talk about any

22     details, neither with Olek nor with Evans, so my knowledge in this

23     respect is quite meager.  I didn't know that in the computer there were

24     any targets or any data.  I was not told this.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please take a

Page 10894

 1     look at what Gunnar Westlund from Sweden had to say.  That's D309, D309.

 2     Can we take a brief look at this document in e-court.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Did you know, although you hadn't been there for a long time,

 5     that there were some military crews in UN vehicles that did not really

 6     belong to the UN; in other words, that the vehicles and uniforms of the

 7     UN were abused, there were such instances?

 8        A.   As I said earlier, I was a fairly young UNMO at that time, and I

 9     stayed there for a fairly short time.  Therefore, I didn't have such

10     knowledge.  I don't have any knowledge of what Gunnar Westlund was saying

11     here.  Gunnar told me the same thing when we were at Dubrovnik after the

12     incident in Pale, because we were transferred there together, so I may

13     confirm that he told me that story.  Gunnar told me that, but it was when

14     we were transferred to Dubrovnik.  He said that he was in such a

15     situation.  I never came across anything like that, and I didn't have any

16     information of that nature.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I don't think that this is the map

18     you -- that this is the document you referred to.  Do you have an exact

19     65 ter number?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it's --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Reid informs me it's D306, not 309, the

23     supplemental information sheet of Gunnar Westlund.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the "6" was just misread as

Page 10895

 1     "9."  So could we have D306, please.

 2             Yes, so this is Gunnar Westlund.  Can we have the next page,

 3     please.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Next page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Bullet point 3:

 7             [In English] "Once, in April 1995, I looked out our window and I

 8     saw a UN vehicle with apparent UNMOs inside it, about 200 metres from our

 9     building.  UNMOs were always very cautious to notify each other whenever

10     we left our assigned areas and entered another team's area, but no team

11     had contacted us to report a visit to our area."

12             [Interpretation] And then he describes the situation.  When they

13     wanted to make contact, the crew left, and then the last sentence says:

14             [In English] "Other UNMOs reported similar incidents."

15             [Interpretation] Do you understand that the Serbian side had to

16     be cautious about the abuse of UN vehicles and insignia, bearing in mind

17     that those vehicles and people could cross the Serb lines and carry out

18     reconnaissance missions, and they were not, as a matter of fact,

19     UN personnel?  This is what you heard from Westlund; right?

20        A.   Theoretically, it was possible, but I have no knowledge of the

21     practice of that nature.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that some Canadian and British troops

23     worked as forward air controllers, and they scouted and guided NATO

24     missiles?  Do you know that?

25        A.   No, I didn't know that, and I had no interest such things.  I was

Page 10896

 1     focused on my tasks.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time.  For planning

 3     purposes, can I know how much longer you would need?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fifteen minutes or so.  I should be

 5     able to finish within the next 15 minutes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But the tape runs only for one and a half -- or one

 7     hour and forty minutes, so we need to take a break now.

 8             So we'll break until 1.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13        Q.   You were told that you were under the supervision of the

14     Army of Republika Srpska.  Were you kept as prisoners of war?  Did

15     anybody mention the term to you?

16        A.   No, no one defined our status.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we now look at 1D3059 to see what Harley Alves said about

19     that in his statement.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Harley Alves was with you, was he not?

22        A.   What was his nationality, because Harley -- was it the Brazilian

23     or --

24        Q.   I believe that he was a Brazilian.

25        A.   If this is Harley that I mentioned earlier, the Brazilian, I got

Page 10897

 1     to know him because he was together with me at the barracks, and I

 2     described our relationship earlier.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 3 in this

 4     document.

 5             Just a moment, please.  Bear with me.  It may be page 2.  Oh, no,

 6     it is here, right.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Please, in the last paragraph, he says:

 9             [In English] "They brought us some Spanish newspapers, so from

10     that moment we knew that we were considered as prisoners of war by

11     so-called Republika Srpska.  After that, we tried to organise ourselves

12     as prisoners of war, and we gave a letter with some requests to Vojvodic.

13     We wanted to be able to contact our families, to watch the news, to have

14     a visit from ICRC and doctors, and we wanted to get in touch with

15     Nikola Koljevic.  We also requested to go out to get some shower."

16             [Interpretation] Your colleague was clear that your status was

17     the status of prisoners of war; is that what your colleague says in his

18     statement?

19        A.   In my statement, I didn't mention that, but there was a

20     situation.  I think that it was on the fifth or sixth day.  I don't

21     remember clearly.  But when we were in the ultimate -- in the final

22     barracks, we decided to write our requests regarding our stay in that

23     place, and there was something like that.  We prepared the list of

24     requests, and we actually passed it on to the officer who was in charge.

25     His name was Vojvodic.  And I don't quite remember what we put on this

Page 10898

 1     list of requests, but I confirm that it happened.  And we requested to

 2     contact with family and we requested contact with the Red Cross.  And

 3     perhaps it was after the letter that we prepared, the Red Cross arrived,

 4     and then the sanctions were somewhat mitigated and we were able to step

 5     outside and we could take a walk in the designated area.  So that's what

 6     I remember.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we look at 1D3058.  Zlatko Kozusnik, yes, and let's see what

 9     he said in his statement.

10             Can we look at page 5 in his statement, page 5.  Just a moment,

11     let's see.  Four, personally -- second sentence in the fourth paragraph:

12             [In English] "Personally, I would like to say that I felt more

13     safe there than in SE-1 accommodation, because of the local population

14     which was angry with us because of NATO air-strikes."

15             [Interpretation] Do you agree with this remark, with what

16     Zlatko Kozusnik said in his statement?

17        A.   Yes, I agree.  I may just add that we were just calming our

18     concerns for the practical reasons.  We were able to figure out that

19     there was some discussion going on that the situation will be brought to

20     an end, but it didn't change the fact that each of us was aware that if

21     the discussion went in a different direction, then we would come back to

22     the starting point.

23        Q.   At that moment, there's no doubt about that, you were an active

24     serviceman and a UN NATO -- a UN member?

25        A.   I do not quite understand.  At what moment?  At what moment do

Page 10899

 1     you refer?  Do you mean my entire mission, when I was a serviceman, or

 2     "at the moment" means the day when the trouble began?  Please clarify.

 3        Q.   At the moment when you were arrested.  At that moment, were you

 4     an active serviceman and did you serve as a member of the United Nations

 5     forces?

 6        A.   When I said that I was a serviceman, my point was that my main

 7     task was to take care of the correspondence with headquarters, with

 8     Sarajevo, on the radio, and I was responsible for incoming radio

 9     correspondence that was reaching our team.  So that was my service, while

10     other colleagues could do some other things at that time, perhaps their

11     personal things or some other things.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And all of them were active servicemen in the

13     United Nations forces; right?

14        A.   To my knowledge, yes, all of them were active servicemen in their

15     respective armed forces.

16        Q.   But also in the United Nations forces at the moment when they

17     were arrested; right?

18        A.   Of course.  The procedure was such that given armed force from

19     the country of origin of the UNMO had to second him to the UN mission,

20     and when the papers were signed, we were reporting to the command of the

21     UN, so the Secretary-General of the United Nations.  At that point, my

22     superiors in Poland were no longer relevant.

23        Q.   Thank you.  When talking about the UN observers and others who

24     may have been engaged on some other tasks, do you remember - and you

25     spoke about that on pages 39 and 40 - do you remember a document that was

Page 10900

 1     shown to you by Madam Sutherland containing a list of 26 men who had been

 2     arrested?  Do you remember that only eight of them were UNMOs, whereas

 3     the other eighteen captives were not UN observers?  Do you remember that

 4     document or shall I call it up for you again?

 5        A.   I saw this document yesterday and I also saw it today.  I pointed

 6     out the names of people that I've known.  While I don't know the others,

 7     I don't know who they were, this is what I found out, that they were not

 8     UNMOs.  So this is my knowledge about it.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Colonel.  I am

10     sorry that at the moment of our hostility with NATO, you found yourself

11     in the area, but I am also glad that the outcome of all that was good.

12     Thank you very much.  I have no further questions for you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, do you have any re-examination?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Colonel Kalbarczyk, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of

17     the Tribunal and the Bench, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to

18     give it.  Now you are free to go.  Please have a safe journey back home.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no further witness for today.

22             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

24            [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of  Chamber]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in private session.

Page 10901

 1             In relation to the third witness scheduled for next week,

 2     Mr. Zecevic, the Chamber is aware and are appreciative of the efforts

 3     being made by the Registry to expedite the process of service of the

 4     subpoena on the witness.  However, until that service is completed and we

 5     have an indication of the witness's reaction to the subpoena -- just a

 6     second.  Is there a further development?

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger, I have just read the information.

 9     Do you have any follow-up on that?  I take it that the Defence is not

10     informed yet.

11             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I presume the Court is looking at the same

13     information that was provided at 1.09.  I have not heard anything

14     additional since then.  I may be in a position to provide the Court with

15     some clarification of any issues that may arise, because I've been

16     attempting to follow the process as it was underway, so there may be

17     nuances that the Court is concerned about.

18             I don't know what the Court intends to do next.  I, frankly --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Tieger.  But there's no reason

20     not to inform the Defence of this development?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I think they've been apprised -- no, I can't think

22     of any reason offhand, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I'll read out what I just received, for your

24     information, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Robinson.

25             This is an e-mail from the Registry to the OTP team, and the main

Page 10902

 1     part reads like this:

 2             "The witness has informed the VWS that the subpoena was served on

 3     him today at 10.33.  Mr. Zecevic conveyed to the VWS that as he has

 4     written down in the memorandum of service of subpoena, knowing the

 5     consequences of the decision, he has decided not to appear before the

 6     Court in the Karadzic case in The Hague, nor via videolink, with the

 7     primary reason being his negative to appear as the Prosecutor's witness

 8     in the case and his poor medical condition as secondary reason."

 9             It goes on like this.

10             So we'll consider what the next step should be.  But before that,

11     we need to hear from you, Mr. Tieger, what you --

12             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Your Honour --

13             JUDGE KWON:  -- are minded to suggest.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Two matters arise, it seems to me.

15             I would have alerted the Court, in any event -- that is, prior to

16     receiving this, when the matter, as the Court noted, was still even less

17     clear, that we were -- we would be notifying the Court and the Defence

18     about the addition of another witness for next week, in light of the

19     possibility that this third witness would not appear.  Obviously, in many

20     respects the information that the Court just read is basically a

21     confirmation of what we knew before, that is, the witness's reluctance to

22     appear voluntarily and the existence of his medical condition.  It

23     appears we may have further information from the submission or provision

24     of some medical documentation.  So the Prosecution, of course -- the

25     position remains the same.  We applied for the subpoena for the reasons

Page 10903

 1     stated.  They seem to be largely confirmed in the information we've just

 2     received.  We wish to press forward, but -- as quickly as possible.

 3             In that regard, I do note that there was a suggestion by VWS that

 4     there would be no processing of the necessary visa application because of

 5     the witness's position.  I wonder if that really makes sense if the Court

 6     wishes to ensure that the subpoena is enforced, so I would note that that

 7     issue may arise, and, secondly, that the Prosecution has done and is

 8     doing what it can to respond to the, obviously, realistic possibility

 9     that this witness will not be present to testify at least on Wednesday

10     morning.

11             JUDGE KWON:  My understanding is that you will make best efforts

12     to make arrangement for that.

13             MR. TIEGER:  We are doing so, and we will continue to do so.  I

14     mean, our -- there's only so much we can do.  But if the Court was

15     inquiring about our -- I don't think it was.  I think it was implicit in

16     our submission of the subpoena in the first place, but, of course, we

17     would continue to maintain the positions taken in our application, and

18     anticipate that the subpoena would be moved on and enforced.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             If the Legal Officer could approach the Bench.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We go back to open session.

23             Do you have any observation before that, Mr. Robinson?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             Primarily, we're not concerned with the enforcement of the

Page 10904

 1     subpoena, but my general suggestion would be that until the time comes

 2     when the witness has been ordered to -- has been -- is supposed to appear

 3     and he doesn't appear, then the question is premature at this point as to

 4     what to do to enforce a subpoena.  So next Wednesday, when the case is

 5     called, and if he's not here, then I think that would be the time to deal

 6     with that issue.  But thinking about the scheduling, I can think of very

 7     few witnesses who we could be prepared to cross-examine next week, given

 8     the notice that we have right now.  There is maybe one or two people who

 9     give very limited testimony that could possibly be -- we could deal with

10     that on cross-examination.  But as we go into the weekend, it really

11     would be impossible to prepare for some witness that we haven't been

12     expecting.  So I ask you to consider that when you think about the

13     schedule for next week.

14             If I could also mention, and perhaps this could be in public

15     session, but I would ask --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Then why don't we go back to open session.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We go back to open session.

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, thinking about the schedule for

22     next week, I just want to bring to your attention that since the trial

23     resumed on the 13th of January, we have received approximately 18 to

24     20 disclosure batches, sometimes at a rate of five a day, of Rule 68 and

25     Rule 66(A)(ii) material, and it involves hundreds of documents which have

Page 10905

 1     to be examined by our team to determine if they are relevant to the next

 2     upcoming witness or to determine whether they should be the subject of

 3     disclosure violation motions.

 4             Two disclosure violation motions have been filed today.  I expect

 5     another two to be filed on Monday and probably at least one more after

 6     that next week, but we're so far behind in just trying to review the

 7     disclosure material that we're receiving at this rate that it's very

 8     difficult to keep up with the preparation of cross-examination.  So if it

 9     turns out that we have one or two days next week in which we don't sit,

10     believe me, we would be putting that time to very good use and it would

11     not be a real waste of time because of these problems we're having with

12     disclosure violations and late disclosure.

13             Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your submission.

15             The hearing is now adjourned, and we will sit on Monday at 9.00.

16     I'm sorry, 2.30, yes.  That's the day when we are sitting 2.30 -- from

17     2.30 to 6.30.

18             Thank you.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.27 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 31st day of

21                           January, 2011, at 2.30 p.m.